Red Hair the Nobleman
January 10, 2023 3:16 AM Subscribe
The story of a seemingly insignificant character, hidden in plain sight: deft and insightful analysis of the opening sequence in Conan the Barbarian (1982) [threadreader/nitter]
Wow. *This* is the kind of analysis that I live for.
posted by Mogur at 4:02 AM on January 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Mogur at 4:02 AM on January 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
Guess I'd finally better get around to watching it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:43 AM on January 10, 2023
This is fricking amazing, and it's so indicative of a broken social media dynamic that it was posted to Twitter, a medium completely unsuited to long form anything. I don't want to turn this thread into a "Twitter must die" thing, but: Twitter absolutely must die.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:52 AM on January 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:52 AM on January 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
I love movies that take the time to craft a world in which all of the characters have fully realized lives and it’s clear that the exist both before and after they intersect with the protagonist’s story.
As silly as it might sound in comparison, Grosse Point Blank does a phenomenal job in creating minor characters that are living fully realized story arcs in the background of John Cusack’s mid life crisis. It’s worth watching the reunion scene just to check out what’s happening in the background, told in short little flashes.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
As silly as it might sound in comparison, Grosse Point Blank does a phenomenal job in creating minor characters that are living fully realized story arcs in the background of John Cusack’s mid life crisis. It’s worth watching the reunion scene just to check out what’s happening in the background, told in short little flashes.
posted by Ghidorah at 5:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [14 favorites]
Actually I am reminded of why we love (most) Korean drama series so much. All of the characters have an arc; things are always happening to people and they're always responding, and sometimes they learn and sometimes they don't, and often you learn more about them and why they're so fucked up in the process. And why it's so hard when the shows are done, because you've become intimate with a dozen people and now you have to say goodbye.
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:46 AM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:46 AM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a really fascinating analysis and now I need to rewatch Conan.
I tip my hat to John Milius, a very talented director and screenwriter; the man's responsible for "I love the smell of napalm in the morning", "Go ahead, make my day", and "What is best in life, Conan?" and partially for the USS Indianapolis monologue by Robert Shaw in Jaws.
That being said, the man's politics are pretty close to out and out fascism (he apparently once wished that Douglas MacArthur had crossed the Potomac a la Caesar and the Rubicon and established military rule in DC) and his daughter Amanda openly pals around with the alt-right. I honestly don't know how well known this is.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:37 AM on January 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
I tip my hat to John Milius, a very talented director and screenwriter; the man's responsible for "I love the smell of napalm in the morning", "Go ahead, make my day", and "What is best in life, Conan?" and partially for the USS Indianapolis monologue by Robert Shaw in Jaws.
That being said, the man's politics are pretty close to out and out fascism (he apparently once wished that Douglas MacArthur had crossed the Potomac a la Caesar and the Rubicon and established military rule in DC) and his daughter Amanda openly pals around with the alt-right. I honestly don't know how well known this is.
posted by fortitude25 at 6:37 AM on January 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
Milius' very bad politics and their influence on the movie are even more complicated by Oliver Stone as co-writer, a fact that I regularly have to confirm is not something I just made up in my head.
posted by N8yskates at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by N8yskates at 6:39 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I saw that on Twitter and was delighted and horrified. It is a good reading. It also ignores the fact that this is the story of a slaveowner. No moral value of any kind is assigned to this fact, and while one could argue that the Hyborian Age was a very, very rough time when everything was horrible, this analysis could be collocated easily with any number of “happy slave” narratives throughout history used by slaving societies to normalize their actions. (I write that as a longtime fan of the movie and REH’s works generally, even as I am cognizant of their flaws.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:43 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
If excellent things which are weirdly long form keep showing up on twitter, I think it's a proof that twitter is doing something important. I don't know whether the format actually appeals to people, or there's something about having a large somewhat random audience, but I believe twitter shouldn't die.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:46 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:46 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah. I'm glad I wasn't the only one weirded out by the strangely sympathetic framing of the red haired guy. The thread does point out that it's not making a value judgement on what the guy does, but describing slavery as an "investment" and it's praise for him doing the right most pragmatic, self-serving thing is weirdly detached and a little off-putting. I think the overall point about a storyteller "marking" a seemingly-insignificant character so the audience knows that they're not just another extra could have been made without that.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:27 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 7:27 AM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
This analysis goes directly against what I felt like these scenes are saying. That bit when a young red-hair and Conan exchange looks isn't there so "you'll remember this kid later"; it's there to establish that there is some kind of connection between them. All the scenes of them together tell a tale of red hair's increasing respect for Conan, and I'd always assumed the final bit where he kicks him out was primarily about being unable to live with keeping a man he respects, or perhaps even anyone, in bondage. That seems like the clearest reading to me! This interpretation just seems like beanplattery.
The sympathetic framing of the red-haired guy is rooted in introducing him as a child, and planting the idea that being a slaveowner was something he was raised as, not something he chose. (This is the core anti-woke fear; that if someone tells you something you were taught as a child was wrong, that you are personally culpable for it. The simpler reading gives red hair a miniature redemption arc.)
posted by phooky at 7:50 AM on January 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
The sympathetic framing of the red-haired guy is rooted in introducing him as a child, and planting the idea that being a slaveowner was something he was raised as, not something he chose. (This is the core anti-woke fear; that if someone tells you something you were taught as a child was wrong, that you are personally culpable for it. The simpler reading gives red hair a miniature redemption arc.)
posted by phooky at 7:50 AM on January 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
I also always took red-haired guys decision to release Conan as him coming to the realization that being a slave owner was wrong.
In my head, the Khan's question and Conan's response wasn't some indication that Conan had a "king's" mentality, just the opposite: Conan had been a slave for so long and done nothing but kill that he'd lost all his humanity.
Red-haired guy hears Conan's response and realizes what he'd done by making him into a pit fighter. He released Conan out of guilt and the hope that Conan could find something more in life than killing. Which Conan does! He finds friendship, he finds love. By the end of the movie, Conan is a complete person again.
posted by Eddie Mars at 8:28 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
In my head, the Khan's question and Conan's response wasn't some indication that Conan had a "king's" mentality, just the opposite: Conan had been a slave for so long and done nothing but kill that he'd lost all his humanity.
Red-haired guy hears Conan's response and realizes what he'd done by making him into a pit fighter. He released Conan out of guilt and the hope that Conan could find something more in life than killing. Which Conan does! He finds friendship, he finds love. By the end of the movie, Conan is a complete person again.
posted by Eddie Mars at 8:28 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
the Khan's question and Conan's response wasn't some indication that Conan had a "king's" mentality, just the opposite: Conan had been a slave for so long and done nothing but kill that he'd lost all his humanity.
Potato, potato.
posted by gauche at 8:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Potato, potato.
posted by gauche at 8:35 AM on January 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Cool! Now do an analysis of class dynamics: start with the relationship of King Osric and his class-traitor daughter and her choice to follow Thulsa Doom, and his followers' communal lifestyle. Move on to an examination of the salience of identity between Conan, Valeria and Subotai w/r/t Conan's overriding need for vengance, Valeria's need for belonging but rejection of prevailing identity norms, and Subotai's mediating presence.
posted by eclectist at 9:00 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by eclectist at 9:00 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah. I'm glad I wasn't the only one weirded out by the strangely sympathetic framing of the red haired guy. The thread does point out that it's not making a value judgement on what the guy does, but describing slavery as an "investment" and it's praise for him doing the right most pragmatic, self-serving thing is weirdly detached and a little off-putting.
Some caveats: I haven't actually watched the movie, so I don't have my own context. But when I was reading the thread, I didn't get the sense that the framing was sympathetic. In a way, it's kind of the opposite. Based on how other people read the movie, it sounds like Red Hair normally comes off as a sympathetic character:
Red-haired guy hears Conan's response and realizes what he'd done by making him into a pit fighter. He released Conan out of guilt and the hope that Conan could find something more in life than killing.
Whereas the thread seems to suggest that Red Hair didn't have a change of heart so much as a gnawing realization that his "investment" had boxed him into a corner of sorts. I didn't read the use of "investment" the way we might normally think of people investing in other people, for their enrichment and the enrichment of society in general; I read it as nakedly economic, an investment intended to benefit Red Hair and his family, nothing more. Make Conan stronger because he can fight for you; make Conan smarter because he can lead troops for you. The way the Twitter thread read to me was that Red Hair ultimately makes his decision out of self-interest, which doesn't seem particularly sympathetic to me.
posted by chrominance at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Some caveats: I haven't actually watched the movie, so I don't have my own context. But when I was reading the thread, I didn't get the sense that the framing was sympathetic. In a way, it's kind of the opposite. Based on how other people read the movie, it sounds like Red Hair normally comes off as a sympathetic character:
Red-haired guy hears Conan's response and realizes what he'd done by making him into a pit fighter. He released Conan out of guilt and the hope that Conan could find something more in life than killing.
Whereas the thread seems to suggest that Red Hair didn't have a change of heart so much as a gnawing realization that his "investment" had boxed him into a corner of sorts. I didn't read the use of "investment" the way we might normally think of people investing in other people, for their enrichment and the enrichment of society in general; I read it as nakedly economic, an investment intended to benefit Red Hair and his family, nothing more. Make Conan stronger because he can fight for you; make Conan smarter because he can lead troops for you. The way the Twitter thread read to me was that Red Hair ultimately makes his decision out of self-interest, which doesn't seem particularly sympathetic to me.
posted by chrominance at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
(but also maybe I should watch the movie sometime!)
posted by chrominance at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by chrominance at 9:02 AM on January 10, 2023
my favorite anecdote about films that go deep into their worldbuilding is how Akira's art was all completely done by hand, with layers of art that were drawn and then placed on top of each other to create this immersive level of depth. Than layering process therefore meant that there were entire streetscapes and bits of background that were never actually scene and just covered up by foreground action, but it was still considered important to draw that hidden world to immerse the artists in their work.
On John Milius being an amazing storyteller with horrid politics, it's worth remembering that Robert E Howard was a rather problematic person as well. Conan is a superhero and there will always be an aspect of superheroes as this complete triumph of individual will that will always appeal to the fascists out there. Liking Conan doesn't make you a fascist, but it does mean that you will run into fascists in the community.
posted by bl1nk at 9:21 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
On John Milius being an amazing storyteller with horrid politics, it's worth remembering that Robert E Howard was a rather problematic person as well. Conan is a superhero and there will always be an aspect of superheroes as this complete triumph of individual will that will always appeal to the fascists out there. Liking Conan doesn't make you a fascist, but it does mean that you will run into fascists in the community.
posted by bl1nk at 9:21 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
THERAPIST: And you are here instead of your friend, because...
SUBOTAI: He is Conan, Cimmerian. He will not go to therapy, so I go to therapy for him.
posted by phooky at 9:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
SUBOTAI: He is Conan, Cimmerian. He will not go to therapy, so I go to therapy for him.
posted by phooky at 9:31 AM on January 10, 2023 [16 favorites]
If you haven't seen the movie, it's definitely worth the watch. The "red-haired" man only appears in the prologue though. As TFA mentions he has very few lines and only a minute or two of screen time.
posted by Eddie Mars at 9:45 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Eddie Mars at 9:45 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I made this for another thread a few weeks ago, but I thought it should also be included here.
Crush. See. Hear.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:59 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Crush. See. Hear.
posted by ob1quixote at 9:59 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
The music in Conan is gorgeous. If you don't want to watch the movie, you still might want to listen to the soundtrack.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:44 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 10:44 AM on January 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah. I'm glad I wasn't the only one weirded out by the strangely sympathetic framing of the red haired guy.
David Hines (the author) is conservative enough to enjoy the kind of extended thought experiment (as a thought experiment) of "what if we thought along the same lines as the people in this weird violent fantasy." Not a Trumpist, mind you, but to me he basically defines the outer limit of the degree of conservatism that's tolerable in someone you otherwise like.
posted by praemunire at 10:47 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
David Hines (the author) is conservative enough to enjoy the kind of extended thought experiment (as a thought experiment) of "what if we thought along the same lines as the people in this weird violent fantasy." Not a Trumpist, mind you, but to me he basically defines the outer limit of the degree of conservatism that's tolerable in someone you otherwise like.
posted by praemunire at 10:47 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Since I haven't seen the movie: odds that RHG is related to Red Sonja?
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 AM on January 10, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:58 AM on January 10, 2023
odds that RHG is related to Red Sonja
Vanaheim is a different fictional country; Red Sonja hails from Hyrkania.
(Obviously I've learned some useful information in my life...)
posted by Jubal Kessler at 11:14 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Vanaheim is a different fictional country; Red Sonja hails from Hyrkania.
(Obviously I've learned some useful information in my life...)
posted by Jubal Kessler at 11:14 AM on January 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Halloween Jack: Red Sonja, canonically is Hyrkanian (proto-Iranian) though of Irish religion (champion of Scathath the Goddess of vengeance); RHG is Vanir, or proto-Scandinavian. So Sonja might actually be closer to the Cimmerians and Conan (Cimmerians being a Scythian adjacent people who lived on the Caspian steppes).
Though the entirety of the Hyborian mythos is nightmarish smorgasbord of early 20th century archeological and anthropological conjecture.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:15 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Though the entirety of the Hyborian mythos is nightmarish smorgasbord of early 20th century archeological and anthropological conjecture.
posted by LeRoienJaune at 11:15 AM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
speaking of hot takes from folks who haven't seen the movie----I encourage everyone who skims this thread to let the "red hair" and "Conan" neurons fire together, and imagine that every reference is actually to Conan O'Brien.
When I track down a copy this weekend, there's no way it's going to compare to the riot in my brain right now.
posted by adekllny at 11:17 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
When I track down a copy this weekend, there's no way it's going to compare to the riot in my brain right now.
posted by adekllny at 11:17 AM on January 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
Since it seems like a lot of people here have never seen Conan the Barbarian, a little pop culture context:
John Milius, the director and co-writer (with OLIVER STONE) of this film, is the inspiration for John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski. So just imagine Walter Sobchak hunched over a typewriter piecing together the backstory of the Red Haired Man.
posted by thecjm at 11:37 AM on January 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
John Milius, the director and co-writer (with OLIVER STONE) of this film, is the inspiration for John Goodman's character in The Big Lebowski. So just imagine Walter Sobchak hunched over a typewriter piecing together the backstory of the Red Haired Man.
posted by thecjm at 11:37 AM on January 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
porpoise commented about six weeks ago on the FanFare thread for this movie:
I though that this was a really touching part of the film - recall that there was a young redheaded boy who was Conan's keeper, and grew up with him, trained him, saw him flourish, and - whatever - decided to give Conan his freedom.posted by gauche at 12:27 PM on January 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
The music in Conan is gorgeous. If you don't want to watch the movie, you still might want to listen to the soundtrack.
Strongly agreed. It's surprisingly popular amoung orchestras: I particularly enjoyed this performance conducted by Eimear Noone; purists might want to also check out Basil Poledouris' first and only live concert of the Conan soundtrack with the Andalucian Philarmonic Orchestra & Chorus, a few months before the composer died in 2006.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 1:03 PM on January 10, 2023
Strongly agreed. It's surprisingly popular amoung orchestras: I particularly enjoyed this performance conducted by Eimear Noone; purists might want to also check out Basil Poledouris' first and only live concert of the Conan soundtrack with the Andalucian Philarmonic Orchestra & Chorus, a few months before the composer died in 2006.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 1:03 PM on January 10, 2023
The cinematography is great too. This movie does so much with just the music and the landscapes. I mean there's only so much you can do with dialog delivered by Ahnold and they worked around that well.
And getting Max von Sydow to chew the scenery was a stroke of genius ("the lions ate him!?! [laughter]")
posted by kokaku at 1:10 PM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
And getting Max von Sydow to chew the scenery was a stroke of genius ("the lions ate him!?! [laughter]")
posted by kokaku at 1:10 PM on January 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do enjoy this sort of bean plating analysis, and I agree with chrominance that it doesn't seem like a particularly sympathetic view of Red Hair; it's simply one that attempts to understand him within the context and morality of his world, in which being a slaveowner is a normal and acceptable thing. I don't see it as justifying his or making a moral statement.
All that said, I tend to agree with phooky: the plainer reading is the one I've always understood and I think it makes at least as much sense as the one in the FPP. Eddie Mars' expansion upon it is also pretty solid.
Frankly, I have never thought so hard about Conan the Barbarian before today, having tended to view it as a simple but enjoyable swords-and-sorcery movie. Prior to today, my deepest thought about Conan the Barbarian was whether or not people would think I named my son after the character (I did not, but folks definitely still bring it up from time to time).
posted by asnider at 3:28 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
All that said, I tend to agree with phooky: the plainer reading is the one I've always understood and I think it makes at least as much sense as the one in the FPP. Eddie Mars' expansion upon it is also pretty solid.
Frankly, I have never thought so hard about Conan the Barbarian before today, having tended to view it as a simple but enjoyable swords-and-sorcery movie. Prior to today, my deepest thought about Conan the Barbarian was whether or not people would think I named my son after the character (I did not, but folks definitely still bring it up from time to time).
posted by asnider at 3:28 PM on January 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aw, Basil Poledouris died? He was great. I bought a few of his soundtracks back in the day. The Hunt for Red October was a top ten fave for me for sure, but Conan is definitely up there too. (Reads further: lung cancer, at 61. Man, fuck cancer.)
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:56 PM on January 10, 2023
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:56 PM on January 10, 2023
In the 10+ years that Conan spends pushing the wheel of pain, there are fewer and fewer slaves. Eventually, it is just Conan. Does that mean the "salt mine" is less profitable? Maybe, but I always interpreted it as a statement about survival of the fittest. The others die off, but Conan grows stronger. In the end, he's the only one left because he can push the wheel alone. Red hair doesn't replace the other slaves because he doesn't need to, but that montage speaks more to Conan's brute strength than Red Hair's business acumen.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 4:16 PM on January 10, 2023
posted by abraxasaxarba at 4:16 PM on January 10, 2023
a comparison is tenuous, but "enslaved warrior made to fight for profit" featured prominently in "Valhalla Rising" and if you haven't seen it, it's pretty bonkers. Mads Mikkelsen fans, rejoice.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:05 AM on January 11, 2023
posted by elkevelvet at 8:05 AM on January 11, 2023
> I always interpreted it as a statement about survival of the fittest. The others die off, but Conan grows stronger. In the end, he's the only one left because he can push the wheel alone.
That's how I've always interpreted it, as well. It's not about realism (if it was, then the FPP interpretation makes logical sense), it's about symbolism and showing that Conan has superhuman strength and willpower (because he kept going all these years, rather than just giving up and letting himself die or be killed).
posted by asnider at 8:53 AM on January 11, 2023
That's how I've always interpreted it, as well. It's not about realism (if it was, then the FPP interpretation makes logical sense), it's about symbolism and showing that Conan has superhuman strength and willpower (because he kept going all these years, rather than just giving up and letting himself die or be killed).
posted by asnider at 8:53 AM on January 11, 2023
An unspoken codicil to the thread's analysis that Red Hair releases Conan because he recognizes a King, is the fascist realization of a strongman to the lead the Volk to greatness. In other words, Conan is Hitler and Red Hair is getting out of his way. Which kind of all fits with Milius' politics, unfortunately. REH, if I'm remembering correctly, was more of a "libertarianism red in tooth and claw" sort of figure.
posted by fatbird at 9:06 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fatbird at 9:06 AM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh there is a whole lot in the Conan mythos about rejecting the libertine trappings of the ruling elite, not out of any sense of justice or egalitarianism, but because power and wealth must be earned. Very, very libertarian, and the setting adds in a bonus implication of the virtue of primal man vs the feminization of being civilized.
posted by thecjm at 6:31 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by thecjm at 6:31 PM on January 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
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