Why is every character suddenly an 'antihero' now?
February 13, 2023 10:47 AM Subscribe
I give you boring, but I'm no longer so sure about unrealistic...
posted by sohalt at 10:59 AM on February 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by sohalt at 10:59 AM on February 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
The other thing is, James Gunn, mentioned at the end, for the most part, does antiheroes right. GotG is a straight-up found-family fantasy, only featuring a foul-mouthed genetically-modified trash panda and a big alien dude who has zero conception of human social niceties. And there's a surprising sweetness in the only (yes, only) Suicide Squad movie. I think of it as a descendant of what's going in the Dini-Timm DC animated universe, where there are good guys and bad guys, but there's also a tenderness for some of the bad guys, a sense of the mistakes and the pain and the waste involved in turning a guy into a monster in a costume with a plan to take over the world. Antiheroes in the genre sense have an appeal to everyone who can't quite imagine themselves ever fitting or even been to seen to fit in the classic hero mold, who know the parades will never be for them.
That's separate from the tedious "we're going to call him an antihero because it's too offputting to admit the Nazi is a villain" approach. Spike tried to rape Buffy, people, deal with it.
posted by praemunire at 11:05 AM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
That's separate from the tedious "we're going to call him an antihero because it's too offputting to admit the Nazi is a villain" approach. Spike tried to rape Buffy, people, deal with it.
posted by praemunire at 11:05 AM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
It's exhausting always rooting for the anti-hero
posted by chavenet at 11:07 AM on February 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 11:07 AM on February 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
Seems reasonable to call Homelander (or insert any fictional TV character here: Vic Mackey, Walter White, etc.) a hero or antihero if they are looked up to by other characters in the show — or by viewers in real life. Which he is, despite being a murderer.
In a way, this makes the audience complicit, but perhaps that's been true in storytelling for a long time.
You can go as far back as Richard III, say, where the villain speaks directly to the audience in an intentionally seductive way. Up near until the point of his downfall, there is some part of the crowd that is quietly rooting for his success, even while everyone knows the story's ending requires him to fail.
Evil is seductive. Fascism is seductive. You can find other examples: Starship Troopers is a two-hour long riff on Leni Riefenstahl and the use of propagandistic imagery to seduce, for instance.
Getting past the idea of villainy might perhaps help us think a bit more about why we are entertained by what we are watching.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:10 AM on February 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
In a way, this makes the audience complicit, but perhaps that's been true in storytelling for a long time.
You can go as far back as Richard III, say, where the villain speaks directly to the audience in an intentionally seductive way. Up near until the point of his downfall, there is some part of the crowd that is quietly rooting for his success, even while everyone knows the story's ending requires him to fail.
Evil is seductive. Fascism is seductive. You can find other examples: Starship Troopers is a two-hour long riff on Leni Riefenstahl and the use of propagandistic imagery to seduce, for instance.
Getting past the idea of villainy might perhaps help us think a bit more about why we are entertained by what we are watching.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:10 AM on February 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
Something I feel like this piece didn't really touch on, but that I've seen people talk about and find compelling, is that one of the things you get in some superhero movies/story arcs (e.g. X-Men and Black Panther) is "villians" who are actually pretty right about a lot of stuff but use tactics that the viewer/reader is supposed to abhor (not necessarily incorrectly), and then the "heroes" are like "this isn't the way to do it!", defeat the villain, and the very real problems the villians are pointing out are never addressed. I think this creates the appearance of complexity because the "villians" or "antiheroes" or whatever have real motivations and make a lot of good points but it actually flattens the narrative and moral view because it becomes "tactics bad" and not "it's hard to address serious structural and systemic problems and be a 'good guy'" which feels like a much more interesting, and complex, topic, and I think this move is part of the reason we end up with blurred lines between heroes and villians even in cases that are much less nuanced.
posted by an octopus IRL at 11:11 AM on February 13, 2023 [63 favorites]
posted by an octopus IRL at 11:11 AM on February 13, 2023 [63 favorites]
Some fandom expert quoted in the article:
“My theory behind it, at least, is that it’s a product of studios wanting to build spinoffs and franchises and sequels off of every title. Like every title is really a trailer for some future title. And they want the option and the opportunity to spin off a character into a sequel.”
I blame capitalism.
posted by box at 11:13 AM on February 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
“My theory behind it, at least, is that it’s a product of studios wanting to build spinoffs and franchises and sequels off of every title. Like every title is really a trailer for some future title. And they want the option and the opportunity to spin off a character into a sequel.”
I blame capitalism.
posted by box at 11:13 AM on February 13, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think "The Boys" is probably the worst possible example for all of this because every single one of the characters is flawed and the whole thing is about what a shitshow the world is and how "supes" don't make it better. The best you can do in the shitshow is dig through it for the occasional nugget of undigested corn.
[Don't get me wrong, I love "The Boys" and think Homelander is one of the most fascinating characters in the superhero world; it's just not the best storyline to base an argument about "why-oh-why antiheroes" on.]
posted by chavenet at 11:22 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
[Don't get me wrong, I love "The Boys" and think Homelander is one of the most fascinating characters in the superhero world; it's just not the best storyline to base an argument about "why-oh-why antiheroes" on.]
posted by chavenet at 11:22 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, Butcher is pretty much your classic antihero to begin with, with possible heel turn later.
Homelander? Nah, that there is a villain.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on February 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
Homelander? Nah, that there is a villain.
posted by Artw at 11:27 AM on February 13, 2023 [25 favorites]
It was very clear that Spike kept getting brought back because not only was he a fan favorite, but the cast and crew really enjoyed working with James Marsters. So much so that they wanted to get him on the Scooby team rather than as a villain. A redemption arc can be a lot of fun to write, no doubt. And because Angel got shunted to his own spinoff, there was a big sexy-vampire-shaped hole in the show.
But Joss Whedon thought that Spike raping Buffy and then having her fall in love with him was the right way to go about it. The mind boggles. Spike ruined the last seasons of Buffy, and then went on to ruin the last season of Angel as well.
Mad Men was more of a classic antihero show. It was hard to really root for anybody (except maybe Peggy, but even with her, you knew that the more she succeeded the more she was selling her soul). There were many episodes I watched just to root that Pete would get punched in the face. There was a lot of compelling drama, and the performances were terrific, but the setting itself was as much a draw as any of the characters.
Michael Shur seems to have some interesting takes on the hero/antihero thing. In The Good Place, Eleanor starts out as an antihero: self-centered and annoying, but learns over the course of the show how to be a real hero. In Rutherford Falls, Nathan is ostensibly the hero, based on the structure of the show. But as you watch, he's revealed to be pretty villainous while the antagonist is much more heroic in ethical terms. But it's hard to be subtle enough with such things that you aren't constantly being misinterpreted. Conservatives don't recognize satire if it appears to back them up.
posted by rikschell at 11:29 AM on February 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
But Joss Whedon thought that Spike raping Buffy and then having her fall in love with him was the right way to go about it. The mind boggles. Spike ruined the last seasons of Buffy, and then went on to ruin the last season of Angel as well.
Mad Men was more of a classic antihero show. It was hard to really root for anybody (except maybe Peggy, but even with her, you knew that the more she succeeded the more she was selling her soul). There were many episodes I watched just to root that Pete would get punched in the face. There was a lot of compelling drama, and the performances were terrific, but the setting itself was as much a draw as any of the characters.
Michael Shur seems to have some interesting takes on the hero/antihero thing. In The Good Place, Eleanor starts out as an antihero: self-centered and annoying, but learns over the course of the show how to be a real hero. In Rutherford Falls, Nathan is ostensibly the hero, based on the structure of the show. But as you watch, he's revealed to be pretty villainous while the antagonist is much more heroic in ethical terms. But it's hard to be subtle enough with such things that you aren't constantly being misinterpreted. Conservatives don't recognize satire if it appears to back them up.
posted by rikschell at 11:29 AM on February 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
Because stories with moustache-twiddling villains and blue-eyed blonde heros are:
1. Boring
2. Unrealistic
Well, as a counterpoint we went and saw the big screen re-release of Titanic this weekend, and without getting too serious, it was a ton of fun to see Billy Zane play Cal Hockley as basically a Snidely Whiplash villain without a single redeeming quality. I cannot think a complex backstory revealing that, I don't know, Cal's father was emotionally unavailable or that he accidentally caused his best friend's death as a boy would have really improved the viewing of the movie.
posted by fortitude25 at 11:34 AM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
1. Boring
2. Unrealistic
Well, as a counterpoint we went and saw the big screen re-release of Titanic this weekend, and without getting too serious, it was a ton of fun to see Billy Zane play Cal Hockley as basically a Snidely Whiplash villain without a single redeeming quality. I cannot think a complex backstory revealing that, I don't know, Cal's father was emotionally unavailable or that he accidentally caused his best friend's death as a boy would have really improved the viewing of the movie.
posted by fortitude25 at 11:34 AM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
"it's hard to address serious structural and systemic problems and be a 'good guy'" which feels like a much more interesting, and complex, topic
I really liked Syriana and Traffic for this reason (both penned by Stephen Gaghan, as it happens).
Homelander? Nah, that there is a villain.
While he is a villain, he passes as a hero to some. The showrunners put a Homelander fanboy into the storyline, who is basically a caricature of the typical white-male-comic-book-reading-conservative (i.e., a tongue-in-cheek reference to a chunk of the people watching the show). A quick pass on a search engine shows viewers asking if Homelander might really be a "good guy", in a non-ironic way. He's written almost as a kind of interesting litmus test.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:36 AM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really liked Syriana and Traffic for this reason (both penned by Stephen Gaghan, as it happens).
Homelander? Nah, that there is a villain.
While he is a villain, he passes as a hero to some. The showrunners put a Homelander fanboy into the storyline, who is basically a caricature of the typical white-male-comic-book-reading-conservative (i.e., a tongue-in-cheek reference to a chunk of the people watching the show). A quick pass on a search engine shows viewers asking if Homelander might really be a "good guy", in a non-ironic way. He's written almost as a kind of interesting litmus test.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:36 AM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The article mentions a couple of contenders for the first anti-hero but doesn't talk about the obvious one.
posted by saturday_morning at 11:37 AM on February 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 11:37 AM on February 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
Given the topic of the essay, I think that Red's dissection of the concept of antihero is worth viewing, as (at least in my eyes) she does an excellent job of explaining what an antihero is - and isn't. And it's not too surprising that she saves her deepest scorn for the "definition" of antihero the people trying to pin the label on characters like The Punisher and Homelander are using.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:38 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:38 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think there's also an aspect of our own disillusion with ourselves post Iraq and Afghanistan where the nation went into these countries with a genuine hope of doing good and then often made things so much worse and did very much become villains in the narrative of many of the locals; but I also find it astonishing how quickly we moved on from these last two decades of misadventure with very little reflection or reckoning. So we just project that guilt and shame into the stories of villains who were so convinced that they were doing the right thing.
posted by bl1nk at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by bl1nk at 11:39 AM on February 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
“If you’re trying to do something really interesting in an oversaturated space, one of the ways to do that is to kind of lean into this antihero effect that creates more conversation,” writes Julia Alexander, director of strategy for the audience-demand tracker group Parrot Analytics, over email. “Versus trying to do the black-and-white good person/bad person storyline, which is kind of almost overdone in the genre space.”
Good lord, please build a supervillain containment center around this person so they're never allowed to talk about stories ever again.
posted by mittens at 11:40 AM on February 13, 2023 [31 favorites]
Good lord, please build a supervillain containment center around this person so they're never allowed to talk about stories ever again.
posted by mittens at 11:40 AM on February 13, 2023 [31 favorites]
There were many episodes I watched just to root that Pete would get punched in the face.
The end of season two didn't do it for you? That scene with Peggy satisfied me to the bottom of my soul.
posted by praemunire at 11:46 AM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The end of season two didn't do it for you? That scene with Peggy satisfied me to the bottom of my soul.
posted by praemunire at 11:46 AM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh, it was great. A highlight of the show. But you really couldn't punch Pete in the face enough times to satisfy me.
posted by rikschell at 11:50 AM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 11:50 AM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
House of the Dragon is a show where every character is Cersei Lannister. And it makes for undeniably good television.
Oh, I'll deny that.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:53 AM on February 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
Oh, I'll deny that.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:53 AM on February 13, 2023 [19 favorites]
This article reminds me of this other article that we discussed. It argues that antihero stories are more complex and realistic, but also seems to take the position that they’re in decline in popularity relative to good vs. bad stories!
posted by chrchr at 11:53 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 11:53 AM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sometimes they can have good advice
antiheroes!
posted by Jacen at 11:55 AM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
antiheroes!
posted by Jacen at 11:55 AM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Anti-hero is sort of an amorphous term. I could kind of see calling Tony Stark an anti-hero (especially compared to Cap); personally I think the best use is for someone who is unquestionably a villain but gets the protagonist's narrative role (so Walter White, Tony Soprano, the Tim Robbins character in The Player). These are obviously very different creatures in the world of fiction from a flawed hero.
When you get down to genre stuff, I've long felt like the debate between "heroic" and "morally ambiguous" is like a 9 year old boy who likes Gandalf and Aragorn being laughed at by his 14 year old brother who's outgrown that kiddie stuff and is really into Elric*. All that matters is execution; both approaches are bad when you're dealing with countless hack imitators writing ten-book sagas each.
I do find it fascinating how easy it is to root for a very bad person to "get away with it" when you put them in a narrative structured for a hero.
* Yeah, my cultural references are way old, I'm old, sue me.
posted by mark k at 11:57 AM on February 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
When you get down to genre stuff, I've long felt like the debate between "heroic" and "morally ambiguous" is like a 9 year old boy who likes Gandalf and Aragorn being laughed at by his 14 year old brother who's outgrown that kiddie stuff and is really into Elric*. All that matters is execution; both approaches are bad when you're dealing with countless hack imitators writing ten-book sagas each.
I do find it fascinating how easy it is to root for a very bad person to "get away with it" when you put them in a narrative structured for a hero.
* Yeah, my cultural references are way old, I'm old, sue me.
posted by mark k at 11:57 AM on February 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
If we're talking about TV shows that do complex humans who go on a journey from being the hero to the villain and back again, then my favorite is Halt and Catch Fire. Everyone has moments where they're terrible to each other, but they also have their reckonings and they grew, and they learn to be, well, if not great, at least a tamer with their toxicity.
It feels very real in ways that don't excuse or elide shitty behavior but also treats its audience like grownups who want stories of genuinely complicated people.
posted by bl1nk at 12:03 PM on February 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
It feels very real in ways that don't excuse or elide shitty behavior but also treats its audience like grownups who want stories of genuinely complicated people.
posted by bl1nk at 12:03 PM on February 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
..."heroes" are like "this isn't the way to do it!", defeat the villain, and the very real problems the villians are pointing out are never addressed.
Pop Culture Detective did a good video on this called Marvel's Defenders of the Status Quo (YouTube).
posted by eekernohan at 12:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Pop Culture Detective did a good video on this called Marvel's Defenders of the Status Quo (YouTube).
posted by eekernohan at 12:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe pure villains are emotionally shallow and unentertaining, without the kind of dramatic depth that goes along with ambiguity in character, but you’d be hard pressed to tell Lee Van Cleef that who made a very good career out of playing them
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 12:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm weirdly delighted this is on the front page at the same time as the thread about Les Liaisons dangereuses
posted by thivaia at 12:08 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 12:08 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
When it came out, My kid and I watched The Falcon and The Winter Soldier. It wasn't great, but the worst part was the denoument. Falcon has this really, really long speech at the end to a senator about how we have to basically end racism and fix the economic disparity in the US and worldwide -- you know, super non-complex asks -- and when the senator points out that it's really complex and it's not like you can just punch your way to victory to do that, Falcon's response is literally "do better Senator."
Now, any time my son or I have any kind of problem to solve, whether it's doing the dishes or a discussion about trying to live in a GOP-run hellscape, our plan is just to "do better." It's such a cynical take, but we're pretty cynical about superheroes in my house. They are, after all, all pretty conservative: problems are solved by punching/shooting. That's it. There is no other solution. Which is why any time superhero movies try to deal with something more important, they ring hollow.
posted by nushustu at 12:08 PM on February 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Now, any time my son or I have any kind of problem to solve, whether it's doing the dishes or a discussion about trying to live in a GOP-run hellscape, our plan is just to "do better." It's such a cynical take, but we're pretty cynical about superheroes in my house. They are, after all, all pretty conservative: problems are solved by punching/shooting. That's it. There is no other solution. Which is why any time superhero movies try to deal with something more important, they ring hollow.
posted by nushustu at 12:08 PM on February 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
personally I think the best use is for someone who is unquestionably a villain but gets the protagonist's narrative role
There's a term for those characters - villain protagonists.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:09 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's a term for those characters - villain protagonists.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:09 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Another good reason why more of you should be watching pro-wrestling. I remember Paul Heyman saying once that every show is someone’s first show, so it’s the responsibility of the performer and the promotion to give you a clear signal of who the faces and heels are. Aside from a few performers who are gifted enough to make a “tweener” role work
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:33 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:33 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would push back against this article and say that the explosion in popularity of Antiheroes and Complex Moral Grey Areas etc etc came with the ascendence of "prestige" television and primarily HBO. And that is so drastically different to me than the Marvel stuff.
I find people like Tony Soprano and Omar on the Wire for instance to be unique characters that couldn't have existed on anything resembling a network/basic cable TV show, and that's the place where the entire goal of the project had nothing to do with telling morally complex stories, but to just keep the franchise going for as long as possible through very cookie cutter black and white stories and easy redemption. So you had HBO with an explosion of more complicated characters and stories, AMC ends up following suit in 2006 with more of these "prestige" shows, next thing you know we have what was being called "the new golden age of TV": grey areas, antiheroes, stories with no easy solution, charismatic bad guys, complicated good guys, etc. I guess call them "cash grabs" as much as any show is gunning for a piece of the audience pie, but I at least don't feel like I am being spoon fed some kind of logical conclusion of capitalism ruining media or whatever when I watch a show full of bad people like White Lotus for example.
I feel like this is *extremely* different from the Marvel/superhero examples where characters seem to just switch sides off the bat - or villains are eventually cast as the protagonists - like "oh wow the bad guy is GOOD in this one how INTERESTING is that!"...which IS very clearly a cash grab to just shit out more movies! But I think there's a different mechanism at play there that is VERY different from "oh man Billy Butcher on the Boys is actually a really brutal and bad person!!" Like I'd bet good money that there is no plan to spin off The Boys to cast Homelander as a good guy antihero on another show you know? It's very obvious he's a fascist! If people are getting confused about that then that's solely on them.
posted by windbox at 12:34 PM on February 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
I find people like Tony Soprano and Omar on the Wire for instance to be unique characters that couldn't have existed on anything resembling a network/basic cable TV show, and that's the place where the entire goal of the project had nothing to do with telling morally complex stories, but to just keep the franchise going for as long as possible through very cookie cutter black and white stories and easy redemption. So you had HBO with an explosion of more complicated characters and stories, AMC ends up following suit in 2006 with more of these "prestige" shows, next thing you know we have what was being called "the new golden age of TV": grey areas, antiheroes, stories with no easy solution, charismatic bad guys, complicated good guys, etc. I guess call them "cash grabs" as much as any show is gunning for a piece of the audience pie, but I at least don't feel like I am being spoon fed some kind of logical conclusion of capitalism ruining media or whatever when I watch a show full of bad people like White Lotus for example.
I feel like this is *extremely* different from the Marvel/superhero examples where characters seem to just switch sides off the bat - or villains are eventually cast as the protagonists - like "oh wow the bad guy is GOOD in this one how INTERESTING is that!"...which IS very clearly a cash grab to just shit out more movies! But I think there's a different mechanism at play there that is VERY different from "oh man Billy Butcher on the Boys is actually a really brutal and bad person!!" Like I'd bet good money that there is no plan to spin off The Boys to cast Homelander as a good guy antihero on another show you know? It's very obvious he's a fascist! If people are getting confused about that then that's solely on them.
posted by windbox at 12:34 PM on February 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
But Joss Whedon thought that Spike raping Buffy and then having her fall in love with him was the right way to go about it. The mind boggles. Spike ruined the last seasons of Buffy, and then went on to ruin the last season of Angel as well.
Spike didn't ruin the last seasons of Buffy, Whedon did, because of his neurotic hatred of the character.
posted by Beholder at 12:36 PM on February 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Spike didn't ruin the last seasons of Buffy, Whedon did, because of his neurotic hatred of the character.
posted by Beholder at 12:36 PM on February 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
I loved The Falcon and the Winter Soldier for the part where they had to write the person trying to ameliorate human suffering in the face of an uncaring Neo Liberal world economy as more explicitly a villain (by bombing things) than they first thought they had to. They wrote a "villain" then had to ham-fistedly make them actually villainous and not just "oh no, the shareholders profits were ruined!" villainous.
While I don't think Black Adam is particularly well written (good popcorn fare though), it also has this vein of complexity. And similarly paints the US as unsympathetic status quo maintainer.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:37 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
While I don't think Black Adam is particularly well written (good popcorn fare though), it also has this vein of complexity. And similarly paints the US as unsympathetic status quo maintainer.
posted by Slackermagee at 12:37 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like I'd bet good money that there is no plan to spin off The Boys to cast Homelander as a good guy antihero on another show you know? It's very obvious he's a fascist! If people are getting confused about that then that's solely on them.
They're not confused - they're trying to defend his behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:37 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
They're not confused - they're trying to defend his behavior.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:37 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think there's an interesting parallel between classic network TV shows and comic books; the stories always have to sort of reset to the status quo (ante?) because the narrative format is episodic. You can't write a story that permanently breaks certain foundational aspects of the property because in doing so you violate both the audience's expectations of what they are there to watch/read (i.e., in say Law and Order, it's a fairytale about how the US justice system is supposed to work which typically resolves itself within the episode with a few exceptions of longer 2-3 episode arcs) and the other/future writers' expectation of good stewardship of the property (i.e., if Lenny straight up murdered a baby in S02E03 of Law and Order it would be a very different show thereafter, and the stable of writers responsible for S02E04-26 would probably have something to say about it).
Stuff like The Sopranos or The Wire don't come along with that sort of episodic thing built in, so you can have long-lasting decisions because the shows have definite arcs with clearly defined beginnings and ends.
posted by axiom at 12:42 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Stuff like The Sopranos or The Wire don't come along with that sort of episodic thing built in, so you can have long-lasting decisions because the shows have definite arcs with clearly defined beginnings and ends.
posted by axiom at 12:42 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Falcon has this really, really long speech at the end to a senator about how we have to basically end racism and fix the economic disparity in the US and worldwide -- you know, super non-complex asks -- and when the senator points out that it's really complex and it's not like you can just punch your way to victory to do that, Falcon's response is literally "do better Senator."
But that's the thing - the issues really aren't that complex, and the claim that they are has too often been used as an excuse for inaction. I'd argue that one of the big problems in our society at large is the use of "complexity" to dismiss the actual roots of problems.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:43 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
But that's the thing - the issues really aren't that complex, and the claim that they are has too often been used as an excuse for inaction. I'd argue that one of the big problems in our society at large is the use of "complexity" to dismiss the actual roots of problems.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:43 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think you're asking for too much from superheroes. For the most part they all have lives and day jobs that they would much rather be doing but hey there's an armed robbery happening right in front of them so they may as well stop it or extra-dimensional invaders have come and it's too much for the local police or military to deal with so their level of power is needed. They aren't around to solve these bigger picture issues as superheroes because the ability to fly or hit things really hard doesn't really help with that and while the ability to manipulate people's minds would that very quickly makes a super hero a super villain.
Occasionally there will be storylines where the heroes will try to look for more holistic solutions to their problems and it always comes back to them not having the moral authority to do so because they're just some people in tights so they can volunteer their services in an emergency but they can't really compel society around them to change unless they happen to be elected to office or have some other source of influence on the world. Tony Stark makes the world a better place by developing new technologies but he saves the day by blasting baddies with his repulsor rays and it's the latter that we see in films for the most part.
The one thing that always weirds me out with the anti-hero stuff is parents putting stormtrooper t-shirts or onesies on their kids. The helmet may look cool but stormtroopers were pretty obviously the bad guys, even if they were pretty bad at their jobs.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Occasionally there will be storylines where the heroes will try to look for more holistic solutions to their problems and it always comes back to them not having the moral authority to do so because they're just some people in tights so they can volunteer their services in an emergency but they can't really compel society around them to change unless they happen to be elected to office or have some other source of influence on the world. Tony Stark makes the world a better place by developing new technologies but he saves the day by blasting baddies with his repulsor rays and it's the latter that we see in films for the most part.
The one thing that always weirds me out with the anti-hero stuff is parents putting stormtrooper t-shirts or onesies on their kids. The helmet may look cool but stormtroopers were pretty obviously the bad guys, even if they were pretty bad at their jobs.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
They aren't around to solve these bigger picture issues as superheroes because the ability to fly or hit things really hard doesn't really help with that and while the ability to manipulate people's minds would that very quickly makes a super hero a super villain.
Like Batman is using the Batcomputer to analyze the perfect location to put a housing outreach and affordable housing location, with access to state services, public education, and local services instead of trying to solve a Riddler riddle. The busstop is only 5 minutes away Alfred, we've solved it!
And then Alfred comes along and tells Batman to get dressed, the city needs him, and hands him a tie for late-night meeting. "But Alfred, I want to put on the Batsuit and punch petty criminals".
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:56 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Like Batman is using the Batcomputer to analyze the perfect location to put a housing outreach and affordable housing location, with access to state services, public education, and local services instead of trying to solve a Riddler riddle. The busstop is only 5 minutes away Alfred, we've solved it!
And then Alfred comes along and tells Batman to get dressed, the city needs him, and hands him a tie for late-night meeting. "But Alfred, I want to put on the Batsuit and punch petty criminals".
posted by The_Vegetables at 12:56 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Cutting back, I genuinely find it weird when people want to talk about heroes, antiheroes, etc. outside of genre. People know that...characters don't have to come with convenient labels, right? It makes sense to talk about characters in terms of their narrative function, and that would include 'protagonist' and 'narrator' and 'POV character,' and of course it can be worth analyzing the morality of any given character's actions, but about the least interesting thing I can think of to do with an interesting character in TV drama is to try to decide whether they're 'hero' or 'antihero.'
posted by praemunire at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Point of order: Seeing Red wasn't Whedon, it was Marti Noxon working out some shit about a very bad prior relationship in public.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 12:59 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The world is complex. So are people's motivations. Let's reflect that.
Counterpoint: The Blues Brothers
posted by nickmark at 1:00 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Counterpoint: The Blues Brothers
posted by nickmark at 1:00 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
> "But Alfred, I want to put on the Batsuit and punch petty criminals".
Batman's Aff His Nut
by Robert Florence
Batman’s aff his nut
Have you seen the way he cuts aboot
Dressed up as a mad fuckin bat
Batterin guys
I was lit at:
“Mate, I’m worried aboot ye
I know your ma and da died
But everybody’s ma and da dies
And we’re no aw runnin aboot
Hookin muggers and
Kickin psychopaths in the baws.”
And that was when Batman went
“Aye, but do ye ever feel like it?
Do you ever look at the world and feel like it?
Like having a big mad base under your hoose?
Do you ever feel like drivin a big mad motor
that turns intae a tank?
And leatherin fuck oot of guys aw night?
Scarin the fuckin shite oot of them?”
And that’s when I was lit at:
“Aye. Fuck it. Ah dae.”
And that’s the Secret Origin of Robin
And everyone else.
posted by MiraK at 1:17 PM on February 13, 2023 [40 favorites]
Batman's Aff His Nut
by Robert Florence
Batman’s aff his nut
Have you seen the way he cuts aboot
Dressed up as a mad fuckin bat
Batterin guys
I was lit at:
“Mate, I’m worried aboot ye
I know your ma and da died
But everybody’s ma and da dies
And we’re no aw runnin aboot
Hookin muggers and
Kickin psychopaths in the baws.”
And that was when Batman went
“Aye, but do ye ever feel like it?
Do you ever look at the world and feel like it?
Like having a big mad base under your hoose?
Do you ever feel like drivin a big mad motor
that turns intae a tank?
And leatherin fuck oot of guys aw night?
Scarin the fuckin shite oot of them?”
And that’s when I was lit at:
“Aye. Fuck it. Ah dae.”
And that’s the Secret Origin of Robin
And everyone else.
posted by MiraK at 1:17 PM on February 13, 2023 [40 favorites]
The last paragraph of this article clarified for me what the caution was around my optimism toward the new DC movie situation, so thanks for that.
I love the DC comics characters, have lost interest in most of the MCU, and have ignored most of the DC movies because they're not for me, so I was ready to see a new direction. Just, not so much an antihero direction.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:24 PM on February 13, 2023
I love the DC comics characters, have lost interest in most of the MCU, and have ignored most of the DC movies because they're not for me, so I was ready to see a new direction. Just, not so much an antihero direction.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 1:24 PM on February 13, 2023
a couple of contenders for the first anti-hero but doesn't talk about the obvious one.
also Judas as interpreted in Jesus Christ Superstar. He definitely gets the best song.
posted by philip-random at 1:27 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
also Judas as interpreted in Jesus Christ Superstar. He definitely gets the best song.
posted by philip-random at 1:27 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think one thing The Boys has been exploring is the extent to which merely having uncontested power makes some into the baddies. It's satire into what's structural. The Boys, as they get power (and superpower) are increasingly tempted to become what they fight against. While it's disturbing that some fans hold Homelander up as a role model, there's also a lot of debate on reddit on the moral status of Kimiko.
posted by Schmucko at 1:45 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 1:45 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
People accidentally liking the villain is a problem as old as fiction, probably.
Heathcliff - antihero or total dick?
posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Heathcliff - antihero or total dick?
posted by Artw at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why should the Devil get all the good tunes,
The booze and the neon and Saturday night,
The swaying in darkness, the lovers like spoons?
Why should the Devil get all the good tunes?
Does he hum them to while away sad afternoons
And the long, lonesome Sundays? Or sing them for spite?
Why should the Devil get all the good tunes,
The booze and the neon and Saturday night?
— A. E. Stallings; thank you Poetry Foundation
posted by clew at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
The booze and the neon and Saturday night,
The swaying in darkness, the lovers like spoons?
Why should the Devil get all the good tunes?
Does he hum them to while away sad afternoons
And the long, lonesome Sundays? Or sing them for spite?
Why should the Devil get all the good tunes,
The booze and the neon and Saturday night?
— A. E. Stallings; thank you Poetry Foundation
posted by clew at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not real happy with the Polygon article. (I'm not a big fan of the site in general.) Is it really losing "coherent characters and storytelling with real stakes" to show Anakin's downfall and a more complex and less perfect Obi-Wan Kenobi? (That's not looking at how the story was actually done, which was famously flawed in the prequel trilogy; the Filoniverse has done much better in that regard.) The author seems to be bothered about characters not staying in their hero or villain lane, ignoring just how old some of these face/heel or heel/face turns are; Darth Vader's downfall dates back to the seventies, Scarlet Witch's going from villain to hero to the sixties, and Loki's, well, you get the idea. And even the MCU has plenty of straight-up villains: the Red Skull, all three villains in all three Iron Man movies, Darren Cross from Ant-Man and Walton Goggins' character in the sequel, the Supreme Intelligence in Captain Marvel, Ego the Living Planet.
Also, citing the subreddits for various fandoms as some kind of indicator of pop culture in general is cheap and lazy and wrong. They tend to attract cliques of fans who tend to chase away less extreme opinions, and are my least favorite category of subreddits that I might otherwise be interested in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, citing the subreddits for various fandoms as some kind of indicator of pop culture in general is cheap and lazy and wrong. They tend to attract cliques of fans who tend to chase away less extreme opinions, and are my least favorite category of subreddits that I might otherwise be interested in.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:46 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
With fascism on the rise it is important that we launder assholery through a reputation wash and teach to people to look right at evil and say "nuance".
posted by srboisvert at 1:48 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 1:48 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Newsroom comes to mind (the 1990s Canadian one, not the HBO show).
The lead George Findlay is a consummate asshole.
a venal, petty man who cares only about his sex life, his lunch orders and his personal image within the network's bureaucracy. Although exceptionally intelligent, he is highly self-absorbed and utterly unconcerned about anything besides himself.
Yet for some reason, he's hard not to watch. And it really is a great show (link is to the entirety of the first two seasons). I recall catching an interview with Ken Finkelman (the show's lead, and its creator) where he suggested that the secret to a making a bad person a compelling protagonist is to make sure they never get what they want. Which is a dilemma pretty much anyone can relate to. It doesn't matter how badly you want something and the ends you'll go to get it, something always takes it away from you. I think he used Basil Fawlty as an example.
posted by philip-random at 1:53 PM on February 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
The lead George Findlay is a consummate asshole.
a venal, petty man who cares only about his sex life, his lunch orders and his personal image within the network's bureaucracy. Although exceptionally intelligent, he is highly self-absorbed and utterly unconcerned about anything besides himself.
Yet for some reason, he's hard not to watch. And it really is a great show (link is to the entirety of the first two seasons). I recall catching an interview with Ken Finkelman (the show's lead, and its creator) where he suggested that the secret to a making a bad person a compelling protagonist is to make sure they never get what they want. Which is a dilemma pretty much anyone can relate to. It doesn't matter how badly you want something and the ends you'll go to get it, something always takes it away from you. I think he used Basil Fawlty as an example.
posted by philip-random at 1:53 PM on February 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
personally I think the best use is for someone who is unquestionably a villain but gets the protagonist's narrative role (so Walter White, Tony Soprano, the Tim Robbins character in The Player). These are obviously very different creatures in the world of fiction from a flawed hero.
Basically agree, and I would like to say that the difference between an anti-hero and a villain is not how evil they are but what role they play in the narrative. The anti-hero as you say is a protagonist with a hero-like dramatic arc. A villain in this sense is defined by their secondary status in the narrative, as a foil for the hero. (It follows that an anti-hero can face off against a villain; Gus Fring is a villain to Walt's anti-hero.)
Anti-heroes are associated with moral "complexity" because when we see someone as the star of their own story, we normally can't help entering their moral world in some way. Nobody does evil just because, they do it because it makes sense to them and for them, because it is good from their perspective (or perhaps because, from their perspective, they can't help it, etc.). A good anti-hero story is one that involves you (the viewer) in the commission of evils and the development of vices and so on. I think that's very interesting and edifying, but obviously it can also be distasteful. There's also always a danger that the anti-hero's story can seem to justify evils by making them too understandable. Creators of anti-heroes often worry that they have done this (there's tons of intra-textual commentary about this in The Sopranos, for example).
To my mind, this is all somewhat orthogonal to the question of whether focal characters in media are "morally gray." Tony Soprano is an anti-hero but is he morally gray? He seems pretty straightforwardly evil. As I've said, the appearance of grayness really comes from the fact that even evil people are not evil from their own point of view; they have motivations and beliefs and so on that make sense to them.
Should characters be more black-and-white morally? I am not familiar with the media discussed in the post so I can't really say if it is too much one way or another. I do like stories about very good people, although I think to be interesting there should be some illustration of the challenges involved in being very good. For example, I am a huge fan of Monster (the manga and anime), which features the overly-responsible goody-two-shoes protagonist Dr. Tenma. But the drama in the story is variously about how being good gets you in trouble in a go along-get along world (the hospital administration), how doing what you think is right can saddle you with almost infinite responsibilities (saving Johan), and how being good can impose on others. One of my favorite moments in the whole series is when Dr. Tenma reveals something wrong he did in the past; it completely transforms (for the better, in fact) his relationship with his old classmate Dr. Gillen.
(Sidenote, I don't see why poor Thersites gets taxed as the "first anti-hero." The man is just saying what everyone is thinking, telling the truth about the odious heroes of the Greek army, and for this he gets caricatured as mean and ugly and subjected to a vicious public beating by Odysseus.)
posted by grobstein at 2:11 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Basically agree, and I would like to say that the difference between an anti-hero and a villain is not how evil they are but what role they play in the narrative. The anti-hero as you say is a protagonist with a hero-like dramatic arc. A villain in this sense is defined by their secondary status in the narrative, as a foil for the hero. (It follows that an anti-hero can face off against a villain; Gus Fring is a villain to Walt's anti-hero.)
Anti-heroes are associated with moral "complexity" because when we see someone as the star of their own story, we normally can't help entering their moral world in some way. Nobody does evil just because, they do it because it makes sense to them and for them, because it is good from their perspective (or perhaps because, from their perspective, they can't help it, etc.). A good anti-hero story is one that involves you (the viewer) in the commission of evils and the development of vices and so on. I think that's very interesting and edifying, but obviously it can also be distasteful. There's also always a danger that the anti-hero's story can seem to justify evils by making them too understandable. Creators of anti-heroes often worry that they have done this (there's tons of intra-textual commentary about this in The Sopranos, for example).
To my mind, this is all somewhat orthogonal to the question of whether focal characters in media are "morally gray." Tony Soprano is an anti-hero but is he morally gray? He seems pretty straightforwardly evil. As I've said, the appearance of grayness really comes from the fact that even evil people are not evil from their own point of view; they have motivations and beliefs and so on that make sense to them.
Should characters be more black-and-white morally? I am not familiar with the media discussed in the post so I can't really say if it is too much one way or another. I do like stories about very good people, although I think to be interesting there should be some illustration of the challenges involved in being very good. For example, I am a huge fan of Monster (the manga and anime), which features the overly-responsible goody-two-shoes protagonist Dr. Tenma. But the drama in the story is variously about how being good gets you in trouble in a go along-get along world (the hospital administration), how doing what you think is right can saddle you with almost infinite responsibilities (saving Johan), and how being good can impose on others. One of my favorite moments in the whole series is when Dr. Tenma reveals something wrong he did in the past; it completely transforms (for the better, in fact) his relationship with his old classmate Dr. Gillen.
(Sidenote, I don't see why poor Thersites gets taxed as the "first anti-hero." The man is just saying what everyone is thinking, telling the truth about the odious heroes of the Greek army, and for this he gets caricatured as mean and ugly and subjected to a vicious public beating by Odysseus.)
posted by grobstein at 2:11 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Was Milch's version of Al Swearington an anti-hero by the end of season 3 ?
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 2:25 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 2:25 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The world is complex. So are people's motivations. Let's reflect that.
Sure, but the article, in part, is about why even seemingly obviously villainous characters are being described as anti-heroes.
You can have a dynamic, complex and even (arguably) morally grey villain who is still definitely a villain and not an anti-hero.
To draw on The Boys, since the article spends so much time on it, Butcher pretty well fills the classic anti-hero trope (at least initially). His actions and morality are questionable, but his ends are at least potentially good. Homelander, despite people in both the fictional and real worlds seeing him as a hero, is pretty clearly a villain. His actions serve only himself (whereas a selfish anti-hero will usually have either a full-on redemption arc or enough feeling of guilt due to their inherent "good-guy-ness" to do the right thing when push comes to shove).
Where this kind of villain is interesting and makes the story more than a classic, black-and-white story of good vs evil is that he thinks his own motivations are good (at least most of the time, especially early on when he is very much a scared little boy in an adult supe's body). And even when he is self-aware enough to know he's in the wrong, he is able to quickly rationalize why he is actually still the good guy most people view him as. This is realistic and interesting. Very few people think they're the villain. Most people find ways to rationalize immoral behaviour so that they are able to continue thinking of themselves as the hero of their own life's story.
TL;DR - It is very possible to write a villain who is realistic, complex and interesting while still being a villain. An anti-hero isn't just a complex villain. And an objectively evil character doesn't have to be a cartoonish trope.
posted by asnider at 2:42 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Sure, but the article, in part, is about why even seemingly obviously villainous characters are being described as anti-heroes.
You can have a dynamic, complex and even (arguably) morally grey villain who is still definitely a villain and not an anti-hero.
To draw on The Boys, since the article spends so much time on it, Butcher pretty well fills the classic anti-hero trope (at least initially). His actions and morality are questionable, but his ends are at least potentially good. Homelander, despite people in both the fictional and real worlds seeing him as a hero, is pretty clearly a villain. His actions serve only himself (whereas a selfish anti-hero will usually have either a full-on redemption arc or enough feeling of guilt due to their inherent "good-guy-ness" to do the right thing when push comes to shove).
Where this kind of villain is interesting and makes the story more than a classic, black-and-white story of good vs evil is that he thinks his own motivations are good (at least most of the time, especially early on when he is very much a scared little boy in an adult supe's body). And even when he is self-aware enough to know he's in the wrong, he is able to quickly rationalize why he is actually still the good guy most people view him as. This is realistic and interesting. Very few people think they're the villain. Most people find ways to rationalize immoral behaviour so that they are able to continue thinking of themselves as the hero of their own life's story.
TL;DR - It is very possible to write a villain who is realistic, complex and interesting while still being a villain. An anti-hero isn't just a complex villain. And an objectively evil character doesn't have to be a cartoonish trope.
posted by asnider at 2:42 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think anti-heroes often get employed to provide moral complexity, but I've recently watched a story whose writers have managed to make morally complex stories with very black-and-white villains who want to kill everyone, so it's definitely possible. Part of why it works there is that the villains are happy to explain exactly why their genocidal course is in fact the correct one and how the protagonists' plans to fix things are doomed to failure, and part of it is, as I've alluded to, that the protagonists aren't shackled to protecting the status quo.
One of the bad habits that a lot of TV shows have is that we have serialised stories but often there's still an instinctive urge to preserve the status quo from outside threats, that comes from broadcast TV that will play things in any order. Villains trying to make a change are easier to work with, because there's an obvious ticking clock you can employ to raise the stakes, but you can have an untenable status quo that the heroes are trying to change as well as a villain whose resolution to the problem will make things much worse for everyone but them.
posted by Merus at 2:48 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of the bad habits that a lot of TV shows have is that we have serialised stories but often there's still an instinctive urge to preserve the status quo from outside threats, that comes from broadcast TV that will play things in any order. Villains trying to make a change are easier to work with, because there's an obvious ticking clock you can employ to raise the stakes, but you can have an untenable status quo that the heroes are trying to change as well as a villain whose resolution to the problem will make things much worse for everyone but them.
posted by Merus at 2:48 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
"The original poster, who eventually took their posts and account down due to backlash..."
What are we doing.
posted by kbanas at 2:55 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
What are we doing.
posted by kbanas at 2:55 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the bad habits that a lot of TV shows have is that we have serialised stories but often there's still an instinctive urge to preserve the status quo from outside threats, that comes from broadcast TV that will play things in any order.
This is true even in a lot of movies, which don't have that problem. The heroes of the Marvel movies are, for the most part, merely attempting to uphold the status quo. They don't attempt to make anything better (Black Panther's youth outreach centres notwithstanding).
The villains, by contrast, are agents of change and sometimes even seem to be IN THE RIGHT (which the writers quickly fix by making them murder a bunch of people for no good reason, just to remind you that they're the bad guys). Now, MCU villains aren't necessarily incredibly deep or complex characters, but they're often more interesting than the heroes despite being clearly coded as villains and not anti-heroes.
posted by asnider at 3:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is true even in a lot of movies, which don't have that problem. The heroes of the Marvel movies are, for the most part, merely attempting to uphold the status quo. They don't attempt to make anything better (Black Panther's youth outreach centres notwithstanding).
The villains, by contrast, are agents of change and sometimes even seem to be IN THE RIGHT (which the writers quickly fix by making them murder a bunch of people for no good reason, just to remind you that they're the bad guys). Now, MCU villains aren't necessarily incredibly deep or complex characters, but they're often more interesting than the heroes despite being clearly coded as villains and not anti-heroes.
posted by asnider at 3:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
But that's the thing - the issues really aren't that complex, and the claim that they are has too often been used as an excuse for inaction. I'd argue that one of the big problems in our society at large is the use of "complexity" to dismiss the actual roots of problems.
I kept trying to respond earnestly to this but I think you're punking me, yah? At the very least, you're conflating complex with complicated. Yes, sure, racism bad is a fairly simple, not-complicated idea. But like, ending systemic racism? Good luck with that. Nobody's done it yet, and we've had a little while to figure it out.
posted by nushustu at 3:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I kept trying to respond earnestly to this but I think you're punking me, yah? At the very least, you're conflating complex with complicated. Yes, sure, racism bad is a fairly simple, not-complicated idea. But like, ending systemic racism? Good luck with that. Nobody's done it yet, and we've had a little while to figure it out.
posted by nushustu at 3:05 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
From any portmanteau in a storm:
The one thing that always weirds me out with the anti-hero stuff is parents putting stormtrooper t-shirts or onesies on their kids. The helmet may look cool but stormtroopers were pretty obviously the bad guys, even if they were pretty bad at their jobs.
From the article:
Not only do we have three movies exploring Darth Vader’s early years as a hero and his fall to the dark,
Was making this argument a few weeks back, after seeing photos of someone visiting WDW's Star Wars Galaxy's Edge area. Oh! Get your picture taken with the Stormtroopers and Darth Vader!
Vader is clearly a bad guy through most of the films, with the ending redemptive arc in VI. As satisfying as the arc can be ("I knew there was good in him!") he killed a lot of people, helped to blow up a planet or two, and was generally unpleasant in the movies. I recall watching Rogue One and seeing Vader walk down the hall annihilating the resistance. Complex character, but not a good person.
Maybe we need to make our movie villains our heroes so we can relate and understand them, accept that they have the capability to do heinous things, but still have some tiny piece of humanity in them so we can say "yup, still some good."
posted by bacalao_y_betun at 3:35 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The one thing that always weirds me out with the anti-hero stuff is parents putting stormtrooper t-shirts or onesies on their kids. The helmet may look cool but stormtroopers were pretty obviously the bad guys, even if they were pretty bad at their jobs.
From the article:
Not only do we have three movies exploring Darth Vader’s early years as a hero and his fall to the dark,
Was making this argument a few weeks back, after seeing photos of someone visiting WDW's Star Wars Galaxy's Edge area. Oh! Get your picture taken with the Stormtroopers and Darth Vader!
Vader is clearly a bad guy through most of the films, with the ending redemptive arc in VI. As satisfying as the arc can be ("I knew there was good in him!") he killed a lot of people, helped to blow up a planet or two, and was generally unpleasant in the movies. I recall watching Rogue One and seeing Vader walk down the hall annihilating the resistance. Complex character, but not a good person.
Maybe we need to make our movie villains our heroes so we can relate and understand them, accept that they have the capability to do heinous things, but still have some tiny piece of humanity in them so we can say "yup, still some good."
posted by bacalao_y_betun at 3:35 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Conservatives don't recognize satire if it appears to back them up.
Cops put Punisher logos on their uniforms and cars and even pervert it by combining with thin blue line imagery.
posted by Mitheral at 3:36 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Cops put Punisher logos on their uniforms and cars and even pervert it by combining with thin blue line imagery.
posted by Mitheral at 3:36 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's exhausting always rooting for the anti-heroit's me, hi.
i identify with people that are the problem, but i prefer charming idiots (WWDITS) to anti-heroes.
posted by thedaniel at 3:49 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why is every character suddenly an "antihero" now?
Metafilter answers this with the title of the next FPP, "The world doesn’t want boxes. That’s not what’s in the human heart."
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:13 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter answers this with the title of the next FPP, "The world doesn’t want boxes. That’s not what’s in the human heart."
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:13 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Starship Troopers is a two-hour long riff on Leni Riefenstahl
posted by They sucked his brains out!
Possibly eponisterical, but certainly self-referential
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 4:29 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out!
Possibly eponisterical, but certainly self-referential
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 4:29 PM on February 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tony Stark isn’t an antihero; he’s a flawed hero. Thanos isn’t an antihero; he’s a really dumb villain. Walter White and Tony Soprano are closer; they are (maybe) sympathetic villains who get to be the protagonist. Zack Snyder makes everyone a villain because he has no moral lodestone outside of fascism. And if you think Homelander is anything except a complete villain; may god have mercy on your soul.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:50 PM on February 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:50 PM on February 13, 2023 [16 favorites]
I kept trying to respond earnestly to this but I think you're punking me, yah? At the very least, you're conflating complex with complicated.
Nope, and the issue is that you're conflating complex with difficult. Because there really isn't anything complex about systemic racism - at its heart its about creating and maintaining systems that preference one group over another. But rebuilding those systems is difficult, because their beneficiaries don't want their preferences to end - "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression," as it were.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:54 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nope, and the issue is that you're conflating complex with difficult. Because there really isn't anything complex about systemic racism - at its heart its about creating and maintaining systems that preference one group over another. But rebuilding those systems is difficult, because their beneficiaries don't want their preferences to end - "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression," as it were.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:54 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Heathcliff - antihero or total dick?
Heathcliff is a villain (though arguably a hot villain). Cathy is maybe an anti-heroine (or more accurately a hot mess). Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite books of all time but lord, it is a compendium of walking red flags.
If we're talking about early 19th century English novel (a treasure trove of anti-heroes, attractive villains, complicated protagonists, and nice moral people that everyone, including the novelists, thinks are total snoozefests) my absolute all time favorite has got to be Becky Sharp.
posted by thivaia at 5:01 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Heathcliff is a villain (though arguably a hot villain). Cathy is maybe an anti-heroine (or more accurately a hot mess). Wuthering Heights is one of my favorite books of all time but lord, it is a compendium of walking red flags.
If we're talking about early 19th century English novel (a treasure trove of anti-heroes, attractive villains, complicated protagonists, and nice moral people that everyone, including the novelists, thinks are total snoozefests) my absolute all time favorite has got to be Becky Sharp.
posted by thivaia at 5:01 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I thought for a moment you were talking about Heathcliff and Cathy the comics characters. But then sanity intruded.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [28 favorites]
I don't enjoy bleak material or grimdark stuff that isn't straight-up horror, but the baggage I come to with this article is that there are some extremely online people, mostly on Twitter, that seem to think that if we watch bad people doing bad things without the narrative loudly telling us that the bad things are bad, then we in the audience will be brainwashed and do bad things and not fix the world's many problems.
As a writer, as I look at the response to Rorschach et al by dumb boys and men, or when I think about documentaries like The Act Of Killing, I think, you know what? Those secular left/liberal Helen Lovejoys on Twitter are right. Humans are kind of too stupid to enjoy art.
But making art for people that stupid isn't worth doing, so it doesn't matter. We're still gonna make the art that's art, not the art that's propaganda.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 5:13 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a writer, as I look at the response to Rorschach et al by dumb boys and men, or when I think about documentaries like The Act Of Killing, I think, you know what? Those secular left/liberal Helen Lovejoys on Twitter are right. Humans are kind of too stupid to enjoy art.
But making art for people that stupid isn't worth doing, so it doesn't matter. We're still gonna make the art that's art, not the art that's propaganda.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 5:13 PM on February 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
The entirety of the prestige drama era for over a decade has been about antiheroes (see the actual OP of that thread, too). How is... any of this new? Aren't we quite possibly in the post-Breaking Bad, Mad Men, alliterative AMC golden age of television anyway?
posted by Apocryphon at 5:58 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 5:58 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why is every character suddenly an 'antihero' now?
Because the movie and television industries are pandering to the kind of people who get upset if a movie adaptation of their beloved media property isn't rated R.
Also Han Solo isn't an antihero, he just pretends to be one because he thinks it makes him look cool.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:47 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Because the movie and television industries are pandering to the kind of people who get upset if a movie adaptation of their beloved media property isn't rated R.
Also Han Solo isn't an antihero, he just pretends to be one because he thinks it makes him look cool.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:47 PM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
He’s a rogue!
posted by Artw at 6:51 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:51 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Nope, and the issue is that you're conflating complex with difficult. Because there really isn't anything complex about systemic racism - at its heart its about creating and maintaining systems that preference one group over another. But rebuilding those systems is difficult, because their beneficiaries don't want their preferences to end - "to the privileged, equality feels like oppression," as it were.
Oof. First off, playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto flawlessly is difficult. It's possible, but if you have the right talents, and you practice a lot, and you have some measure of luck, you can pull it off. But that isn't complex. It just takes you and a piano.
Meanwhile, if you think systemic racism isn't complex, then I don't know what to tell you, other than you're just incorrect. But second, and more importantly, things can be complex and difficult. And ending systemic racism is both. But again, still definitely complex. You can't just, what, fix global financial systems, and educational systems, and government systems federal alllll the way down to very very local, and make people stop being racist, and, jesus, basically ALL OF CAPITALISM, because it's complex.
But seriously, if it's difficult, but not complex, then tell me, how is it done? Obviously, it will take work. It will definitely be difficult, but if it's not complex, then lay out the simple solution.
posted by nushustu at 7:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Oof. First off, playing Rachmaninoff's 3rd concerto flawlessly is difficult. It's possible, but if you have the right talents, and you practice a lot, and you have some measure of luck, you can pull it off. But that isn't complex. It just takes you and a piano.
Meanwhile, if you think systemic racism isn't complex, then I don't know what to tell you, other than you're just incorrect. But second, and more importantly, things can be complex and difficult. And ending systemic racism is both. But again, still definitely complex. You can't just, what, fix global financial systems, and educational systems, and government systems federal alllll the way down to very very local, and make people stop being racist, and, jesus, basically ALL OF CAPITALISM, because it's complex.
But seriously, if it's difficult, but not complex, then tell me, how is it done? Obviously, it will take work. It will definitely be difficult, but if it's not complex, then lay out the simple solution.
posted by nushustu at 7:04 PM on February 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Also Han Solo isn't an antihero, he just pretends to be one because he thinks it makes him look cool.
In reality he's just a scruffy nerf herder. But, seriously, this conversation is amazing, thanks all.
posted by Jeff_Larson at 7:26 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
In reality he's just a scruffy nerf herder. But, seriously, this conversation is amazing, thanks all.
posted by Jeff_Larson at 7:26 PM on February 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The hacks who write these garbage film and TV scripts think that having a functioning Moral Compass is naive and boring. Therefore every protagonist has to to be a moody and tortured psycho because we're meant to be entertained by that somehow. It's sick, and it says a lot about our society. The world needs better narratives. Life isn't black and white but it's not perpetually gray either.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:32 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:32 PM on February 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
One thing I really really liked about Walter White in Breaking Bad was that he DID have a moral compass. SPOILERS AHEAD. It wasn't perfect by any means, but throughout most of the show, you could see this guy wanting to do right by his family. It started with him wanting to make enough so that after he died his family would be able to live as if he was still working his high school teaching job. Yes, he became a criminal, but you could see the reason.
The show got really interesting later, when he beat cancer, and didn't need to do it any more. Even then, his reasoning was STILL understandable, if not acceptable, and that was how it got interesting. It became more about us, the audience, and OUR moral compasses: how long were we going to find his actions acceptable? When did he cross the line from desperate genius looking out for his family and become amoral criminal? It happened for me (although that didn't stop me from watching) but maybe at a different time than other viewers.
I thought flipping the story to make the audience...not complicit exactly, but certainly accepting...was a pretty neat trick.
posted by nushustu at 7:50 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
The show got really interesting later, when he beat cancer, and didn't need to do it any more. Even then, his reasoning was STILL understandable, if not acceptable, and that was how it got interesting. It became more about us, the audience, and OUR moral compasses: how long were we going to find his actions acceptable? When did he cross the line from desperate genius looking out for his family and become amoral criminal? It happened for me (although that didn't stop me from watching) but maybe at a different time than other viewers.
I thought flipping the story to make the audience...not complicit exactly, but certainly accepting...was a pretty neat trick.
posted by nushustu at 7:50 PM on February 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I bailed about a third of the way into season three for the reasons you mention. And also, I could see pretty clearly where it was going. It was a slow road to hell, which I decided I didn't need to be travelling.
Great show in all kinds of ways but I didn't need five seasons of it.
posted by philip-random at 8:56 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Great show in all kinds of ways but I didn't need five seasons of it.
posted by philip-random at 8:56 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
This discussion has brought into focus my affection for the series, My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. One of the things that attracted me to the show was that none of the Mane Six are one-dimensional. They each have their strengths and weaknesses and sometimes these qualities lead to conflicts and resolutions. I am particularly fond of the "friendship arc" between Applejack and Rarity, two ponies that initially didn't get along at all ("Look Before You Sleep") but eventually became close friends ("Sisterhoof Social").
Another attraction of the series is that while it has villains, there is the persistent theme that no one is doomed to remain a villain. Discord, for example, is utterly terrifying in his initial appearance as a mad god out for revenge. But through the magic of friendship, even he is capable of redemption (although he'll always be a troublemaker, since that's his nature). Not every villain is redeemed, however. Queen Chrysalis was offered friendship but she rejected it. Tirek burned down the Library, so screw that guy. But still, there is hope for everyone, even the "bad guys."
posted by SPrintF at 9:01 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Another attraction of the series is that while it has villains, there is the persistent theme that no one is doomed to remain a villain. Discord, for example, is utterly terrifying in his initial appearance as a mad god out for revenge. But through the magic of friendship, even he is capable of redemption (although he'll always be a troublemaker, since that's his nature). Not every villain is redeemed, however. Queen Chrysalis was offered friendship but she rejected it. Tirek burned down the Library, so screw that guy. But still, there is hope for everyone, even the "bad guys."
posted by SPrintF at 9:01 PM on February 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And that’s the Secret Origin of Robin
And everyone else.
Metafilter: occasional nuggets of undigested corn
posted by flabdablet at 10:12 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
And everyone else.
Metafilter: occasional nuggets of undigested corn
posted by flabdablet at 10:12 PM on February 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
You all having such great nuanced takes, meanwhile I'm here all like...
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:22 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:22 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
FWIW as a character who is mostly notable for their attractive good looks, whose bad judgement drives plot points, has to be constantly rescued by an aristocrat, and has a wacky animal sidekick, Han Solo is clearly not an antihero: he’s a Disney Princess
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:32 AM on February 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:32 AM on February 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
But Joss Whedon thought that Spike raping Buffy and then having her fall in love with him was the right way to go about it. The mind boggles. Spike ruined the last seasons of Buffy, and then went on to ruin the last season of Angel as well.
This is actually a perfect example of how this problem occurs. So, we're now discovering more about the writing process as all the reveltions about Whedon come out, and we've learned through interviews that Whedon *hated* how popular the Spike character was. We've also learned that it was likely because of his own feelings about himself and how he wanted to see himself in the world.
Xander, a Whedon favorite, *also* tried to rape Buffy (hyena time, if anyone's forgotten), but because Whedon *identified* with the Xander character, the kind of nebbishy geek character with self deprecating humor, it is literally never brought up again and he is never portrayed as a bad guy.
Spike was not originally written to try to rape Buffy, but it was a deliberate steer that Whedon thought "at last people will start hating the character, and UNDERSTAND that Buffy needs to be with Nice Guys like ME". It wasn't how James Marsters had created the characterization of the character, it wasn't how anyone on the show understood the characterization of the character, it was just a "fuck you" to James Marsters and Sarah Michelle Gellar, both of whom Whedon had fucked up feelings towards. (My own personal thought is that he enjoyed putting the conventionally attractive SMG through shitty stuff after she turned him down and got married).
So I think the explanation for the rise of this is in part the rise of aggrieved 'nice guy' toxic masculinity, where specific types of white, aggrieved cis men are angry and have feelings and want to put their feelings into their stories. They either want you to empathize with the man who behaves badly because they want to behave badly and be forgiven, or they want you to hate the man who is at his heart good because they are angry at the archetype that they feel they can't live up to and want to taint or pollute it.
posted by corb at 2:47 AM on February 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
This is actually a perfect example of how this problem occurs. So, we're now discovering more about the writing process as all the reveltions about Whedon come out, and we've learned through interviews that Whedon *hated* how popular the Spike character was. We've also learned that it was likely because of his own feelings about himself and how he wanted to see himself in the world.
Xander, a Whedon favorite, *also* tried to rape Buffy (hyena time, if anyone's forgotten), but because Whedon *identified* with the Xander character, the kind of nebbishy geek character with self deprecating humor, it is literally never brought up again and he is never portrayed as a bad guy.
Spike was not originally written to try to rape Buffy, but it was a deliberate steer that Whedon thought "at last people will start hating the character, and UNDERSTAND that Buffy needs to be with Nice Guys like ME". It wasn't how James Marsters had created the characterization of the character, it wasn't how anyone on the show understood the characterization of the character, it was just a "fuck you" to James Marsters and Sarah Michelle Gellar, both of whom Whedon had fucked up feelings towards. (My own personal thought is that he enjoyed putting the conventionally attractive SMG through shitty stuff after she turned him down and got married).
So I think the explanation for the rise of this is in part the rise of aggrieved 'nice guy' toxic masculinity, where specific types of white, aggrieved cis men are angry and have feelings and want to put their feelings into their stories. They either want you to empathize with the man who behaves badly because they want to behave badly and be forgiven, or they want you to hate the man who is at his heart good because they are angry at the archetype that they feel they can't live up to and want to taint or pollute it.
posted by corb at 2:47 AM on February 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe we're also seeing a lot of antiheroes in movies because there are lots of prominent antiheroes in the world today? There are lots of very public assholes in positions of power who occasionally do what could be considered to be the right thing even though they're only doing it for entirely selfish reasons.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:24 AM on February 14, 2023
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:24 AM on February 14, 2023
We already have another thread postulating that Elon Musk might have saved us by prematurely destroying Twitter. Obviously no one there is declaring Musk to be a hero because he certainly isn't, but we are debating whether his actions indirectly resulted in some good, which would seem to cast him in the role of antihero.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:16 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 6:16 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Was Milch's version of Al Swearington an anti-hero by the end of season 3 ?
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 2:25 PM on February 13 [2 favorites +]
Swearington turns from absolute villain to anti-hero as soon as the plague breaks out in Deadwood and he is contrasted with Cy.
posted by Dalekdad at 6:23 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by NoThisIsPatrick at 2:25 PM on February 13 [2 favorites +]
Swearington turns from absolute villain to anti-hero as soon as the plague breaks out in Deadwood and he is contrasted with Cy.
posted by Dalekdad at 6:23 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think that the reason the big corporations love these long running antiheroes who are really villains is because they need to believe that they are anti-heroes, not villains.
Life is too short to spend time giving attention to those who lack empathy, insight and self control. If there is not a redemption arc where the restitution is proportionate, and genuine, where significant change visibly begins to occur soon after encountering the character, and which results in a lasting reliable change in behavior and thought patterns, then you are in a relationship with an abuser.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:02 AM on February 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Life is too short to spend time giving attention to those who lack empathy, insight and self control. If there is not a redemption arc where the restitution is proportionate, and genuine, where significant change visibly begins to occur soon after encountering the character, and which results in a lasting reliable change in behavior and thought patterns, then you are in a relationship with an abuser.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:02 AM on February 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
we are debating whether his actions indirectly resulted in some good, which would seem to cast him in the role of antihero
Accidentally causing a positive thing to occur while actively and deliberately trying to accomplish evil does not make one an anti-hero. That just causes one to become hoisted by their own petard.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:31 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Accidentally causing a positive thing to occur while actively and deliberately trying to accomplish evil does not make one an anti-hero. That just causes one to become hoisted by their own petard.
posted by FatherDagon at 7:31 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Swearington turns from absolute villain to anti-hero
Swearengen. Al Swearengen. and I'm glad that character has been dragged into this, what a great example of someone with loathsome qualities who gets a measure of redemption, all while chewing more scenery and spouting more "cocksuckers" than I don't know what
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Swearengen. Al Swearengen. and I'm glad that character has been dragged into this, what a great example of someone with loathsome qualities who gets a measure of redemption, all while chewing more scenery and spouting more "cocksuckers" than I don't know what
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Swearengen. Al Swearengen.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on February 14 [+] [!]
My embarrassment at getting this character's name wrong knows no bounds.
posted by Dalekdad at 8:01 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on February 14 [+] [!]
My embarrassment at getting this character's name wrong knows no bounds.
posted by Dalekdad at 8:01 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
corb, thanks for the perspective on Buffy. That makes SO MUCH SENSE. Whedon's shittiness truly knows no bounds, but you're so right that it's a very particular flavor of shittiness.
posted by rikschell at 8:11 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 8:11 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Frankly I want to see more antivillains.
posted by Apocryphon at 8:27 AM on February 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 8:27 AM on February 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
so, "good" in presentation and intention and action ... but somehow you just can't help but hate them, whenever they walk on scene you groan in annoyance?
posted by philip-random at 8:50 AM on February 14, 2023
posted by philip-random at 8:50 AM on February 14, 2023
Someone who rescues you from falling to your death and then proceeds to spend the next two hours lecturing you on what a dumbass you were for getting too close to that rickety railing?
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:13 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:13 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
If there is not a redemption arc where the restitution is proportionate, and genuine, where significant change visibly begins to occur soon after encountering the character, and which results in a lasting reliable change in behavior and thought patterns, then you are in a relationship with an abuser.
Horsefeathers.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:26 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Horsefeathers.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:26 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
If there is not a redemption arc where the restitution is proportionate, and genuine, where significant change visibly begins to occur soon after encountering the character, and which results in a lasting reliable change in behavior and thought patterns, then you are in a relationship with an abuser.
Okay, we are still discussing fiction, right? As in, characters who are not real, cannot hurt you, and can be made to go away forever by turning off the tv/shutting down the game/closing the book?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 9:45 AM on February 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Okay, we are still discussing fiction, right? As in, characters who are not real, cannot hurt you, and can be made to go away forever by turning off the tv/shutting down the game/closing the book?
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 9:45 AM on February 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Xander, a Whedon favorite, *also* tried to rape Buffy (hyena time, if anyone's forgotten), but because Whedon *identified* with the Xander character, the kind of nebbishy geek character with self deprecating humor, it is literally never brought up again and he is never portrayed as a bad guy.
This. This. This.
Xander was among the most toxic characters on Buffy, mostly because the showrunner never even realized it. Remember when he "saved the world" in Season 6 by being the sole person/ sane "lovable" heterosexual dude who was able to help a grieving lesbian deal by getting her to tone down her grief. People got mad about Buffy and Spike having sex in season six, but that shit, the Xander shit? That's when I was like, "do I even like this show?"*
*I loved that show. I just fast-forward through Xander.
posted by thivaia at 10:01 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
This. This. This.
Xander was among the most toxic characters on Buffy, mostly because the showrunner never even realized it. Remember when he "saved the world" in Season 6 by being the sole person/ sane "lovable" heterosexual dude who was able to help a grieving lesbian deal by getting her to tone down her grief. People got mad about Buffy and Spike having sex in season six, but that shit, the Xander shit? That's when I was like, "do I even like this show?"*
*I loved that show. I just fast-forward through Xander.
posted by thivaia at 10:01 AM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ahem.
STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN.
To quote my dear friend The Pluto Gangsta, "Another good reason why more of you should be watching pro-wrestling." Or rather, should have been watching.
Stone Cold had several traditional heroic qualities: he stands up to corrupt authority; he's tough as nails; he never gives up, even when he's getting beaten. He also is generally good to most people -- he treats his fans like friends; if he's teamed up with you, he's going to be loyal and give it his all.
But he also had several qualities counter to traditional heroism: he's foul-mouthed; he drinks beer; he is loudly and proudly a redneck from the working class (culturally speaking); he doesn't have a lot of respect for any authority figure, even purportedly "good" ones; and while he will be loyal in a team up, he will not think twice about kicking your ass after if you piss him off, nor will he think twice about beating up another crowd favorite/"good guy" (or "face", as they say in the biz) if they get in his way / piss him off, because ultimately, Stone Cold was in it for Stone Cold (and his fans), he's gonna get that Championship Belt and you may be a nice guy, but he'll still brain you with a folding chair if that's what it takes.
I think defining "anti-hero" as "hero with some villainous qualities" is too simplistic; it reduces everything to simply heroic/villainous. An anti-heroic quality is not necessarily a villainous quality; or to get Hegelian, the heroic is not the negation of the villainous, nor is the villainous of the heroic. The negation of the heroic is the non-heroic. Drinking beer and cursing are not villainous qualities, although many villains might share them; but they are non-heroic, in as much as they do things the heroes traditionally don't do.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:02 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN.
To quote my dear friend The Pluto Gangsta, "Another good reason why more of you should be watching pro-wrestling." Or rather, should have been watching.
Stone Cold had several traditional heroic qualities: he stands up to corrupt authority; he's tough as nails; he never gives up, even when he's getting beaten. He also is generally good to most people -- he treats his fans like friends; if he's teamed up with you, he's going to be loyal and give it his all.
But he also had several qualities counter to traditional heroism: he's foul-mouthed; he drinks beer; he is loudly and proudly a redneck from the working class (culturally speaking); he doesn't have a lot of respect for any authority figure, even purportedly "good" ones; and while he will be loyal in a team up, he will not think twice about kicking your ass after if you piss him off, nor will he think twice about beating up another crowd favorite/"good guy" (or "face", as they say in the biz) if they get in his way / piss him off, because ultimately, Stone Cold was in it for Stone Cold (and his fans), he's gonna get that Championship Belt and you may be a nice guy, but he'll still brain you with a folding chair if that's what it takes.
I think defining "anti-hero" as "hero with some villainous qualities" is too simplistic; it reduces everything to simply heroic/villainous. An anti-heroic quality is not necessarily a villainous quality; or to get Hegelian, the heroic is not the negation of the villainous, nor is the villainous of the heroic. The negation of the heroic is the non-heroic. Drinking beer and cursing are not villainous qualities, although many villains might share them; but they are non-heroic, in as much as they do things the heroes traditionally don't do.
posted by Saxon Kane at 10:02 AM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
STONE COLD STEVE AUSTIN.
We hate The Rock because he went Hollywood and Stone Cold keeps it real. So The Rock’s fans are the real jabronis.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:35 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
We hate The Rock because he went Hollywood and Stone Cold keeps it real. So The Rock’s fans are the real jabronis.
posted by ActingTheGoat at 10:35 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
To me John Wick would be an anti-hero. He's definitely not a "good guy" but he's the main character and he seems to be marginally better than everyone else in the movies so we root for him. But really a big shootout where all the characters die at the end is probably the best outcome for the people living in that world.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:23 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:23 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
but someone told me wrestling was fake
posted by philip-random at 11:46 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 11:46 AM on February 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you haven't read Hench by Natalie Zina Walschots, y'all should.
posted by brook horse at 1:32 PM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by brook horse at 1:32 PM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Okay, we are still discussing fiction, right? As in, characters who are not real, cannot hurt you, and can be made to go away forever by turning off the tv/shutting down the game/closing the book?
as right as this sounds, it sure sounds wrong too
posted by elkevelvet at 1:53 PM on February 14, 2023
as right as this sounds, it sure sounds wrong too
posted by elkevelvet at 1:53 PM on February 14, 2023
I invite you to elaborate further on your meaning.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:02 PM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 2:02 PM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
On ask metafilter there’s a well trod piece of wisdom about distinguishing between intentions and effects of behaviour, that just intending well isn’t enough; I think that applies here too.
Bad intentions, bad effects: stage villain (Gargamel, Hedley Lamarr)
Good intentions, good effects: hero (Lone Ranger, Bruce Willis in Die Hard, 1960s Batman)
Bad intentions, good effects: antihero (Omar Little, 2000s Batman)
Good intentions, bad effects: tragic hero (Hamlet, Michael Corleone)
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:05 PM on February 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Bad intentions, bad effects: stage villain (Gargamel, Hedley Lamarr)
Good intentions, good effects: hero (Lone Ranger, Bruce Willis in Die Hard, 1960s Batman)
Bad intentions, good effects: antihero (Omar Little, 2000s Batman)
Good intentions, bad effects: tragic hero (Hamlet, Michael Corleone)
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:05 PM on February 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
I invite you to elaborate further on your meaning.
It's right to say a character in a book is not going to reach out and throttle you, and I take your meaning: we can choose to close the book/turn off the program/not consume the product. But how much does that capture why stories matter to people, and the effect stories can have?
If much of this current discussion is examining whether so-called heroes in our stories are trending especially gritty/flawed/etc, what does that say about the stories we like? It's not like fiction is something out there, and it's not like we can diminish the power of stories by saying "they're just stories." Respectfully.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:31 PM on February 14, 2023
It's right to say a character in a book is not going to reach out and throttle you, and I take your meaning: we can choose to close the book/turn off the program/not consume the product. But how much does that capture why stories matter to people, and the effect stories can have?
If much of this current discussion is examining whether so-called heroes in our stories are trending especially gritty/flawed/etc, what does that say about the stories we like? It's not like fiction is something out there, and it's not like we can diminish the power of stories by saying "they're just stories." Respectfully.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:31 PM on February 14, 2023
It's right to say a character in a book is not going to reach out and throttle you, and I take your meaning: we can choose to close the book/turn off the program/not consume the product. But how much does that capture why stories matter to people, and the effect stories can have?I am struggling to understand how this is related to the claim that liking a villain who doesn't undergo a redemption arc means you are in an abusive relationship.
If much of this current discussion is examining whether so-called heroes in our stories are trending especially gritty/flawed/etc, what does that say about the stories we like?But we haven't established that the trend actually exists, or that it's significant compared to other periods of human history. So I'm not sure why we have to skip those steps and go straight to self-reflection.
posted by a power-tie-wearing she-capitalist at 4:15 PM on February 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you haven't read Hench by Natalie Zina Walschots, y'all should.
That's an interesting one for this discussion.
So I thought it was really entertaining, but I feel like the intended point was "superheroes and supervillains aren't that different" (so anithero relevant).
But for me the thing it did a better job of illustrating was "Gee, a couple corporate promotions and good benefits plan will get anyone to rationalize just about anything they do in their corporate life." I don't think that Anna's complicitness was supposed to be the point--she was more an everywoman--but she enabled a nice chunk of collateral damage too. Also making her a good antihero.
posted by mark k at 6:34 PM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's an interesting one for this discussion.
So I thought it was really entertaining, but I feel like the intended point was "superheroes and supervillains aren't that different" (so anithero relevant).
But for me the thing it did a better job of illustrating was "Gee, a couple corporate promotions and good benefits plan will get anyone to rationalize just about anything they do in their corporate life." I don't think that Anna's complicitness was supposed to be the point--she was more an everywoman--but she enabled a nice chunk of collateral damage too. Also making her a good antihero.
posted by mark k at 6:34 PM on February 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I am struggling to understand how this is related to the claim that liking a villain who doesn't undergo a redemption arc means you are in an abusive relationship.
you might pursue this with the OP
But we haven't established that the trend actually exists, or that it's significant compared to other periods of human history. So I'm not sure why we have to skip those steps and go straight to self-reflection.
entirely fair. I'd interpreted the article posted by Etrigan to be making precisely that point, and the point is debatable, and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "going straight to self-reflection" given the context.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:37 AM on February 15, 2023
you might pursue this with the OP
But we haven't established that the trend actually exists, or that it's significant compared to other periods of human history. So I'm not sure why we have to skip those steps and go straight to self-reflection.
entirely fair. I'd interpreted the article posted by Etrigan to be making precisely that point, and the point is debatable, and I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "going straight to self-reflection" given the context.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:37 AM on February 15, 2023
In Daniel Abraham's Dagger and Coin fantasy series, one of the POV characters eventually becomes the dark lord/tyrant/villain but he never considers himself such. It was one of the most nuanced portraits of the bad guy I've read in quite some time.
posted by Ber at 9:40 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 9:40 AM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
but someone told me wrestling was fake
Wrestling is real. It's the rest of the world that's fake.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:40 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wrestling is real. It's the rest of the world that's fake.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:40 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've ended up giving up on a lot of fiction media - both standalone and series - because I suddenly look and realize "all these major characters are assholes and I don't actually care that much what happens to them."
posted by rmd1023 at 1:22 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rmd1023 at 1:22 PM on February 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't particularly mind asshole/seriously flawed major characters in stories that don't go on forever. Any number of Martin Scorcese movies come to mind. Problem comes when the story insists on going on and on when there's no serious hope of plausible redemption. As I said before, I bailed on Breaking Bad roughly halfway through, I guess because it was starting to feel masochistic. Walt White and everyone he touched was, on some level, going to hell ... slowly. Or just getting killed.
posted by philip-random at 2:36 PM on February 15, 2023
posted by philip-random at 2:36 PM on February 15, 2023
It's right to say a character in a book is not going to reach out and throttle you, and I take your meaning: we can choose to close the book/turn off the program/not consume the product. But how much does that capture why stories matter to people, and the effect stories can have?
Case in point:
story
effect
posted by flabdablet at 8:20 PM on February 15, 2023
Case in point:
story
effect
posted by flabdablet at 8:20 PM on February 15, 2023
... one of the things you get in some superhero movies/story arcs (e.g. X-Men and Black Panther) is "villians" who are actually pretty right about a lot of stuff but use tactics that the viewer/reader is supposed to abhor (not necessarily incorrectly), and then the "heroes" are like "this isn't the way to do it!", defeat the villain, and the very real problems the villians are pointing out are never addressed.
This bugs me so much.
Killmonger: "I want to end systemic racism, and also do a load of murders!"
The Flag Smashers: "We want to abolish borders, help refugees, and do a load of murders!"
Magneto: "I want to end discrimination against mutants, and also do a load of murders!"
The Riddler: "I want to expose corruption, and do a load of murders!"
In these movies, anyone who wants to change the world for the better is probably a mass murderer, and only billionaire vigilantes or state secret agents can stop them. What happened to villains who are in it for the money?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:44 AM on February 16, 2023
This bugs me so much.
Killmonger: "I want to end systemic racism, and also do a load of murders!"
The Flag Smashers: "We want to abolish borders, help refugees, and do a load of murders!"
Magneto: "I want to end discrimination against mutants, and also do a load of murders!"
The Riddler: "I want to expose corruption, and do a load of murders!"
In these movies, anyone who wants to change the world for the better is probably a mass murderer, and only billionaire vigilantes or state secret agents can stop them. What happened to villains who are in it for the money?
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:44 AM on February 16, 2023
What happened to villains who are in it for the money?
They're heroes now.
posted by grobstein at 9:17 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
They're heroes now.
posted by grobstein at 9:17 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Flag Smashers: "We want to abolish borders, help refugees, and do a load of murders!"
This one was particularly egregious, because it was so obviously out of character and happened purely to make it clear to the audience that "these are villains and you should not take their ideas for systemic change seriously."
It's like when movies have the main villain thoughtlessly murder a henchman just to let you know he's really, really evil. I mean, sure, executions for failure to perform in criminal organizations are a thing, but not many people would follow a guy who might just shoot you for now purpose other than to punctuate a Serious ConversationTM.
posted by asnider at 9:34 AM on February 16, 2023
This one was particularly egregious, because it was so obviously out of character and happened purely to make it clear to the audience that "these are villains and you should not take their ideas for systemic change seriously."
It's like when movies have the main villain thoughtlessly murder a henchman just to let you know he's really, really evil. I mean, sure, executions for failure to perform in criminal organizations are a thing, but not many people would follow a guy who might just shoot you for now purpose other than to punctuate a Serious ConversationTM.
posted by asnider at 9:34 AM on February 16, 2023
People will point to Killmonger, the CIA assassin and obvious liar who was going to be up to bad shit no matter what, but Flag Smasher is the one where they most obvious screwed up making their villain too right about everything and had to put in some nonsense at the last minute.
posted by Artw at 9:38 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:38 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Magneto: "I want to end discrimination against mutants, and also do a load of murders!"
A lot of X-Men discussions get a "Magneto was right!" response. Not about the murders, but about everything else.
All the comics readers probably know this but one of the analogies for Magneto/Professor X is that the latter is equivalent to the MLK for mutants and the former is the equivalent of Malcolm X. (Simplistic and problematic, sure.) Bringing this conversation around to real life and antihero vs villain, a lot of people in the time when they were politically active assumed both MLK and Malcolm X were outright "villains" and a lot of people 50+ years on still think that. I don't know where to take that but it is food for thought on why and how characters like Magneto are painted as villains in current media.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:16 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
A lot of X-Men discussions get a "Magneto was right!" response. Not about the murders, but about everything else.
All the comics readers probably know this but one of the analogies for Magneto/Professor X is that the latter is equivalent to the MLK for mutants and the former is the equivalent of Malcolm X. (Simplistic and problematic, sure.) Bringing this conversation around to real life and antihero vs villain, a lot of people in the time when they were politically active assumed both MLK and Malcolm X were outright "villains" and a lot of people 50+ years on still think that. I don't know where to take that but it is food for thought on why and how characters like Magneto are painted as villains in current media.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 10:16 AM on February 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
gentlyepigrams your observation expands the discussion in interesting ways
'hero' and 'villain' are concepts and there are ways our perspectives shift.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu.. Achilles, Odysseus.. there's a way we think of these characters as 'heroic' but I wonder how our ideas of the hero translate to ideas when these stories were told. And look at how flawed these heroes were, no matter if you're a person of the time or today.
The article and much of this discussion feels situated in the media-rich reality we've known since the mid-20th century. It would be interesting to track the question re: the prominence of the anti-hero, from some of the early televised series to now. It's my feeling (and that's all it is) that in the background of an opinion I might be holding an idea of "Gunsmoke" on the one hand and "Deadwood" on the other.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:16 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
'hero' and 'villain' are concepts and there are ways our perspectives shift.
Gilgamesh and Enkidu.. Achilles, Odysseus.. there's a way we think of these characters as 'heroic' but I wonder how our ideas of the hero translate to ideas when these stories were told. And look at how flawed these heroes were, no matter if you're a person of the time or today.
The article and much of this discussion feels situated in the media-rich reality we've known since the mid-20th century. It would be interesting to track the question re: the prominence of the anti-hero, from some of the early televised series to now. It's my feeling (and that's all it is) that in the background of an opinion I might be holding an idea of "Gunsmoke" on the one hand and "Deadwood" on the other.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:16 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have pretty much wanted a Magneto Was Right t-shirt ever since I saw Quentin Quire wearing one some 20 years ago. One of these days.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:23 AM on February 16, 2023
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:23 AM on February 16, 2023
Oh, I go through times where I'm able to enjoy antihero narratives, even when all the major characters are assholes, but sometimes I just want to root for things besides 'boy, leopards should eat some faces, here." A lot of it depends on the state of my life.
posted by rmd1023 at 11:26 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rmd1023 at 11:26 AM on February 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
It didn't help that Magneto called his club The Brother of Evil Mutants. He was smart enough to drop "Evil" from the name, but actions speak louder than words, Magneto.
posted by riruro at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by riruro at 11:38 AM on February 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gilgamesh and Enkidu.. Achilles, Odysseus.. there's a way we think of these characters as 'heroic' but I wonder how our ideas of the hero translate to ideas when these stories were told. And look at how flawed these heroes were, no matter if you're a person of the time or today.
The article and much of this discussion feels situated in the media-rich reality we've known since the mid-20th century. It would be interesting to track the question re: the prominence of the anti-hero, from some of the early televised series to now. It's my feeling (and that's all it is) that in the background of an opinion I might be holding an idea of "Gunsmoke" on the one hand and "Deadwood" on the other.
In Plato's Republic, there are a number of bizarre passages where he has Socrates condemn the poetry and drama of the day (this ultimately leads up to a proposal to ban poetry). Notably, he complains that both theater and epic present gods and heroes in an irreverent way that highlights their moral flaws, instead of letting them be uncomplicated role models for emulation.
There's an interesting piece by Alexander Nehamas (1988) where he compares some of Plato's arguments to how people talk about the dangers of TV.
posted by grobstein at 12:05 PM on February 16, 2023
The article and much of this discussion feels situated in the media-rich reality we've known since the mid-20th century. It would be interesting to track the question re: the prominence of the anti-hero, from some of the early televised series to now. It's my feeling (and that's all it is) that in the background of an opinion I might be holding an idea of "Gunsmoke" on the one hand and "Deadwood" on the other.
In Plato's Republic, there are a number of bizarre passages where he has Socrates condemn the poetry and drama of the day (this ultimately leads up to a proposal to ban poetry). Notably, he complains that both theater and epic present gods and heroes in an irreverent way that highlights their moral flaws, instead of letting them be uncomplicated role models for emulation.
There's an interesting piece by Alexander Nehamas (1988) where he compares some of Plato's arguments to how people talk about the dangers of TV.
posted by grobstein at 12:05 PM on February 16, 2023
I have pretty much wanted a Magneto Was Right t-shirt ever since I saw Quentin Quire wearing one some 20 years ago. One of these days.
Jay and Miles used to sell “Magneto had some valid points” Ts…
posted by Artw at 12:38 PM on February 16, 2023
Jay and Miles used to sell “Magneto had some valid points” Ts…
posted by Artw at 12:38 PM on February 16, 2023
A lot of X-Men discussions get a "Magneto was right!" response. Not about the murders, but about everything else.
Been a while since I read Marvel consistently but I believe the current over-arching plot in the X-Men, etc. titles is that basically, Magneto had some good ideas. Mutants actually have secured their own nation, and are engaged in tense negotiation with the human world about their autonomy. At the same time, they're dealing with internal struggles over how to be self-governing when most of them are traumatized by bigotry and some of them aren't used to community efforts.
It didn't help that Magneto called his club The Brother of Evil Mutants. He was smart enough to drop "Evil" from the name, but actions speak louder than words, Magneto.
This was actually discussed by Uatu The Watcher in Earth X (which is 22 years old at this point, God help me). Uatu posited that Magneto did it deliberately to force Xavier into being the "good" mutant (i.e. the one who obeys laws, works within the rules, tries to show the right face to the world), making him less effective. Notably this was only a few years after a storyline where a portion of Xavier's psychic powers snapped under the strain and became "Onslaught".
Any application to real-world events is an exercise left to the reader.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:51 PM on February 16, 2023
Been a while since I read Marvel consistently but I believe the current over-arching plot in the X-Men, etc. titles is that basically, Magneto had some good ideas. Mutants actually have secured their own nation, and are engaged in tense negotiation with the human world about their autonomy. At the same time, they're dealing with internal struggles over how to be self-governing when most of them are traumatized by bigotry and some of them aren't used to community efforts.
It didn't help that Magneto called his club The Brother of Evil Mutants. He was smart enough to drop "Evil" from the name, but actions speak louder than words, Magneto.
This was actually discussed by Uatu The Watcher in Earth X (which is 22 years old at this point, God help me). Uatu posited that Magneto did it deliberately to force Xavier into being the "good" mutant (i.e. the one who obeys laws, works within the rules, tries to show the right face to the world), making him less effective. Notably this was only a few years after a storyline where a portion of Xavier's psychic powers snapped under the strain and became "Onslaught".
Any application to real-world events is an exercise left to the reader.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:51 PM on February 16, 2023
Yeah I read the Evil Mutants thing as the equivalent of queer people calling ourselves faggots. Or, pertinently, Sam Smith and Kim Petra’s “Unholy” performance.
posted by brook horse at 2:12 PM on February 16, 2023
posted by brook horse at 2:12 PM on February 16, 2023
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1. Boring
2. Unrealistic
The world is complex. So are people's motivations. Let's reflect that.
posted by happyinmotion at 10:53 AM on February 13, 2023 [9 favorites]