Art in art class?
March 28, 2023 7:34 AM Subscribe
Parents, be warned! There will be art in this art class! National treasure Alexandra Petri with a disclaimer.
(Washington Post gift link)
"Just wanted to let you know that in this art class, we’re going to be showing the students some art. Will that be okay? You signed up for a classical education, in theory — at least, that word is in the name of our school! — so I had sort of hoped it would be!"
(Washington Post gift link)
"Just wanted to let you know that in this art class, we’re going to be showing the students some art. Will that be okay? You signed up for a classical education, in theory — at least, that word is in the name of our school! — so I had sort of hoped it would be!"
Mona Lisa: We understand that any depiction of a woman smiling could be problematic; there has been a lot of work done in this state to prevent women from being happy. But she could be smiling sadly! Maybe she’s smiling at a man! Maybe she’s smiling because Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis just told her to smile!
...
Jacques-Louis David, “The Death of Marat”: Pro: shows a revolutionary who has met a terrible fate, justly punished for daring to question the wisdom of the state! Con: He is not wearing pants.
From the author bio:
posted by brainwane at 8:07 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
She is the author of the upcoming "AP's US History: Important American Documents (I Made Up)."OH EXCELLENT. I bet I will devour this while laughing bitterly and heartily, as I did with America: The Book (the textbook-shaped satire by The Daily Show).
posted by brainwane at 8:07 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The relevant Simpsons episode aired 33 years ago.
This stupid controversy, right down to the statue in question, was already the the subject of parody three decades ago.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:08 AM on March 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
This stupid controversy, right down to the statue in question, was already the the subject of parody three decades ago.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:08 AM on March 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
I am so sick of "nudity is pornography." It isn't.
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's even more depressing to think that in 1990 parents being upset by Michelangelo's David was presented as the outlandish extreme.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:20 AM on March 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:20 AM on March 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
I am so sick of "nudity is pornography." It isn't.
Yeah, there's a whole new generation of individuals who are super into morality/decency politics and it's toxic as hell. Also, this is just another nail in the coffin with regards to me NEVER visiting Florida again. Just another way to make me feel unsafe and unwanted as a POC. Desantis can rot in hell.
posted by Fizz at 8:21 AM on March 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah, there's a whole new generation of individuals who are super into morality/decency politics and it's toxic as hell. Also, this is just another nail in the coffin with regards to me NEVER visiting Florida again. Just another way to make me feel unsafe and unwanted as a POC. Desantis can rot in hell.
posted by Fizz at 8:21 AM on March 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Don't overestimate college students in actual art classes, BTW. I do a lot of (nude) life modeling, and I recently modeled for a (non-religious) college drawing class where the instructor decided to add a night of drawing from a model.
One of the students told the professor that they were "uncomfortable" with nudity, so I ended up wearing a thong. Which is fine; I keep one in my modeling kit because some (not all) of the high school portfolio sessions I model for require it ... but for a college class? Seriously?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
One of the students told the professor that they were "uncomfortable" with nudity, so I ended up wearing a thong. Which is fine; I keep one in my modeling kit because some (not all) of the high school portfolio sessions I model for require it ... but for a college class? Seriously?
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
The piece is really funny.
This stupid controversy, right down to the statue in question, was already the the subject of parody three decades ago.
Hope Carrasquilla resigned on Monday as principal of the Tallahassee Classical school after the campus’s governing board told her to either step down or be fired over parental complaints that came in after sixth-grade students were shown the 16th-century sculpture, one of the Renaissance’s most famous pieces of art.
Weirdly - this was a Christian charter school, with the promise of a classical education. The principal resigned because she didn't send a notification to parents, not because the art was shown (supposedly.) But I think my favourite element in the Guardian article is:
Tallahassee Classical school is affiliated with Hillsdale College, a Michigan-based private conservative Christian institution. According to its website, the school aims to “train the minds and improve the hearts of young people through a content-rich classical education in the liberal arts and sciences, with instruction in the principles of moral character and civic virtue”.
...
“This year, we made an egregious mistake. We didn’t send that notice. Look, we’re not a public school. We’re a public charter. Parents, after they saw all the crap that’s being taught in public schools during [the Covid-19 pandemic] decided on their own that they didn’t want their children to be taught that.
“The rights of parents, that trumps the rights of kids.”
I'm...not sure their educational goals and their positioning in the marketplace are aligned here. Giving kids an education on civic virtue and moral character may not lead to the most...calm...path for controlling parents. I submit Cicero's Six Mistakes Of Man for contemplation.
Signed, product of a classical education.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
This stupid controversy, right down to the statue in question, was already the the subject of parody three decades ago.
Hope Carrasquilla resigned on Monday as principal of the Tallahassee Classical school after the campus’s governing board told her to either step down or be fired over parental complaints that came in after sixth-grade students were shown the 16th-century sculpture, one of the Renaissance’s most famous pieces of art.
Weirdly - this was a Christian charter school, with the promise of a classical education. The principal resigned because she didn't send a notification to parents, not because the art was shown (supposedly.) But I think my favourite element in the Guardian article is:
Tallahassee Classical school is affiliated with Hillsdale College, a Michigan-based private conservative Christian institution. According to its website, the school aims to “train the minds and improve the hearts of young people through a content-rich classical education in the liberal arts and sciences, with instruction in the principles of moral character and civic virtue”.
...
“This year, we made an egregious mistake. We didn’t send that notice. Look, we’re not a public school. We’re a public charter. Parents, after they saw all the crap that’s being taught in public schools during [the Covid-19 pandemic] decided on their own that they didn’t want their children to be taught that.
“The rights of parents, that trumps the rights of kids.”
I'm...not sure their educational goals and their positioning in the marketplace are aligned here. Giving kids an education on civic virtue and moral character may not lead to the most...calm...path for controlling parents. I submit Cicero's Six Mistakes Of Man for contemplation.
Signed, product of a classical education.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
If we show students Warhol’s cans, they will want to see Warhol’s can, if you know what I mean.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:30 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:30 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
When I was in 5th grade in 1983, my classmate's dad helped to run the nearby art museum. His wonderful, cultured mom came to our classroom every Wednesday for an hour and taught us art history -- started with the three columns (Doric, Ionic, and Corinthian), and headed right for the classic stuff.
Even as 11-year olds I don't think we squirmed and blushed as much as these prudes.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:34 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even as 11-year olds I don't think we squirmed and blushed as much as these prudes.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:34 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Slate ran an interview with the chair of board of the school which was, well, not enlightening exactly but a picture of something.
I feel like it renders parody somewhat redundant.
posted by grobstein at 8:36 AM on March 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
I feel like it renders parody somewhat redundant.
posted by grobstein at 8:36 AM on March 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Why do I get the feeling that failing to file the proper paperwork about showing classical art is just the cover for firing this person because she’s not in sufficient ideological lockstep with the anti-woke mob?
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:45 AM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:45 AM on March 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Jesus, that board chairman is pretty awful, even for Florida.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wenestvedt at 8:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Back in the ‘60’s, I was a in a sophomore world history class in high school. We were doing the Renaissance. Our teacher wanted to show us something. He picked up this large, heavy coffee table book, opened it up to a picture of that naked David guy, but he struggled to keep a small piece of paper over the naughty bits as he walked around the class with the book. I think everybody in the room recognized the statue, and all the giggling that occurred was because of the blushing teacher’s struggle to hide what we all knew was there. Yes, he was really blushing bright red during this occurrence.
posted by njohnson23 at 8:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 8:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
This whole situation is incredibly funny and infuriating to me as someone who went to an arts high school, in Florida, and attended drawing classes there with nude models on a regular basis (parental permission was required, but not a single one of my classmates was shut out of those sessions, presumably because all of our parents were sensible people).
posted by May Kasahara at 8:48 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by May Kasahara at 8:48 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tried to find it just now and can't: A FB acquaintance posted a cartoon dubbed "The Florida-Approved version of Michaelangelo's David" and it was a drawing of the statue, with the penis replaced by an AK-47.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:49 AM on March 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:49 AM on March 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
the puriteens? ugh i've only heard about them on tumblr but they seem toxic as fuck
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:50 AM on March 28, 2023
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:50 AM on March 28, 2023
Reading the Slate piece...if this is how charters are going in these red states, honestly someone needs to translate the best of the CRT material into the form of a Latin textbook like, stat. I'll bet that none of board or parents actually read Latin. in servitute americae.
But it does give me some hope for that generation of kids. Not that Dead White Guys are all that great, but if they really are approaching some of those texts...it may not turn out so badly.
(This is officially the first time I have wished I turned my classics minor into becoming a Latin teacher.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:51 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
But it does give me some hope for that generation of kids. Not that Dead White Guys are all that great, but if they really are approaching some of those texts...it may not turn out so badly.
(This is officially the first time I have wished I turned my classics minor into becoming a Latin teacher.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:51 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Alexandra Petri is on FIRE lately.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:53 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:53 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
in another thread someone took issue with a comment connecting US appetites for wrestling entertainment with the state of political discourse, the gun culture stuff, just The Everything
maybe this is the natural fate of empire, but for those of us living these times it really is something to see these ignorant attitudes prevail. The same people who receive the holiday greeting card showing the (most likely Republican) governor/congressperson/senator posing in front of a Christmas tree with their family and everyone holding handguns and assault rifles.. these same people demanding a resignation over a marble dick.
it's so fucked up and awful (and it totally bleeds into the world)
posted by elkevelvet at 8:56 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
maybe this is the natural fate of empire, but for those of us living these times it really is something to see these ignorant attitudes prevail. The same people who receive the holiday greeting card showing the (most likely Republican) governor/congressperson/senator posing in front of a Christmas tree with their family and everyone holding handguns and assault rifles.. these same people demanding a resignation over a marble dick.
it's so fucked up and awful (and it totally bleeds into the world)
posted by elkevelvet at 8:56 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, I laughed out loud at Petri's entry for Georgia O'Keeffe.
posted by May Kasahara at 9:04 AM on March 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by May Kasahara at 9:04 AM on March 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Related to the Florida approved statue of David, perhaps the prudes would also approve of Robert Yang's "The Tearoom" (previously), a gay cruising/dating sim in which the naughty bits have been replaced by firearms.
posted by autopilot at 9:06 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by autopilot at 9:06 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Petri is funny as always but this type of story sidesteps that the real issue isn't prudishness about art. It's that there's a sizable chunk of parents who want the right to have total control over what their kids are exposed to in school (and life) and there are schools that will cater to that. The school fired the principle for not sufficiently groveling to parents.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:14 AM on March 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 9:14 AM on March 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Petri is great and I love her writing, but the people on the side of the culture war she's satirizing don't give one tiny shit about being clever. They care about getting the results they want and they're getting them, by legislation and, if necessary, intimidation and force.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:16 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:16 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
How is this different that the recent fuss about the MOMA exhibition, Fictions of Emancipation?
Maybe the parents were protesting the lack of consent from the model for David? Was the model paid?
posted by Ideefixe at 9:23 AM on March 28, 2023
Maybe the parents were protesting the lack of consent from the model for David? Was the model paid?
posted by Ideefixe at 9:23 AM on March 28, 2023
How is this different that the recent fuss about the MOMA exhibition, Fictions of Emancipation?
I don't think anybody was fired for that, for starters.
Having conversations about what is seen and not seen in art; interrogating art in light of the artist's place in history as well as one's own; recontextualizing a work or a corpus of work in light of other developments or subsequent understandings -- this is exactly what an art museum should be doing.
Firing a teacher for showing middle-schoolers probably the the second- or third-most famous piece of Renaissance Art is ... not what a school should be doing.
That's how this is different.
posted by gauche at 9:39 AM on March 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't think anybody was fired for that, for starters.
Having conversations about what is seen and not seen in art; interrogating art in light of the artist's place in history as well as one's own; recontextualizing a work or a corpus of work in light of other developments or subsequent understandings -- this is exactly what an art museum should be doing.
Firing a teacher for showing middle-schoolers probably the the second- or third-most famous piece of Renaissance Art is ... not what a school should be doing.
That's how this is different.
posted by gauche at 9:39 AM on March 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Tried to find it just now and can't: A FB acquaintance posted a cartoon dubbed "The Florida-Approved version of Michaelangelo's David" and it was a drawing of the statue, with the penis replaced by an AK-47.
As you wish.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:41 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
As you wish.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:41 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Calling Michelangelo's David pornography is a phallusy.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:41 AM on March 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 9:41 AM on March 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
How did she omit Rothko??!
posted by newdaddy at 9:44 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by newdaddy at 9:44 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mark Rothko, No. 61: Mixes red and blue in a way that just makes us uncomfortable.
posted by box at 9:50 AM on March 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by box at 9:50 AM on March 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Definitely don't bother googling Barney Bishop III (the school board chairman interviewed in Slate) and finding the sort of "Trump won, actually" or "we should allow victims' families to visit the incarcerated wielding scissors" opinions he's written and said to get a fuller picture of what's really happening here.
posted by axiom at 9:50 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by axiom at 9:50 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the 60's, my sister had an art book [parody] with some of these paintings and sculpture, but with blackout rectangles over the naughty bits.
Nude Descending a Staircase, #2 was especially funny.
posted by MtDewd at 10:09 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nude Descending a Staircase, #2 was especially funny.
posted by MtDewd at 10:09 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
How is this different that the recent fuss about the MOMA exhibition, Fictions of Emancipation?
Was there actually a recent fuss, or is this just Heather "anti-racism is the real racism" MacDonald being a shitty racist again?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:12 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Was there actually a recent fuss, or is this just Heather "anti-racism is the real racism" MacDonald being a shitty racist again?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:12 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
A Florence museum and the city's mayor are inviting parents and students from a Florida charter school to visit and see Michelangelo’s “David.”
The museum, like many in Europe, is free for student groups. There was no indication that any trip would be subsidized by the city or museum.
posted by Glinn at 10:14 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
The museum, like many in Europe, is free for student groups. There was no indication that any trip would be subsidized by the city or museum.
posted by Glinn at 10:14 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
What can we do to reverse this trend? I don't want my kids deprived of their opportunity for a better education by a bunch of not-liberal cultists. Watching this happen doesn't sit right with me, it is happening and nobody seems to be doing anything about it. I don't live in Florida, but I want to do something. What can we do?
posted by Chuffy at 10:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 10:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's really sad that these kids are being deprived of seeing these works and learning about them, because for the love of god this is the foundations of human culture we are talking about. Learning about where these works fit into human history, how each culture developed their own styles, how the cultural influences later mixed and matched these into new forms, it's really amazing.
I mean, the winged victory of Samothrace? When I saw that in person, at the top of a staircase in the Louvre, I about fell the fuck down. Here's this FAMOUS THING I learned about in high school art history decades ago, and it's ACTUALLY RIGHT THERE ... I had no idea that this specific statue would hit me in the feels so hard, seeing it in person. These poor Florida kids will never have that experience, because some asshole told them it's all pornography.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, the winged victory of Samothrace? When I saw that in person, at the top of a staircase in the Louvre, I about fell the fuck down. Here's this FAMOUS THING I learned about in high school art history decades ago, and it's ACTUALLY RIGHT THERE ... I had no idea that this specific statue would hit me in the feels so hard, seeing it in person. These poor Florida kids will never have that experience, because some asshole told them it's all pornography.
posted by caution live frogs at 10:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Serious question: at what point do non-Florida colleges start rejecting applications from Florida high school students, given that they receive maybe 2/3 the education of their non-Florida peers?
posted by swift at 10:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by swift at 10:27 AM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
We commie union teachers have been warning about charter schools since the beginning.
posted by aiq at 10:34 AM on March 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by aiq at 10:34 AM on March 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
It's okay, swift, Florida is also currently eviscerating the education available at Florida colleges, so all those under-educated students will have somewhere to go!
As a parent of a Florida community college student whose likely prospects for a four-year degree would be Florida public universities, I'm trying very hard not to collapse in despair. (He's a music major, I'm trying to tell myself that they're not going to forbid students from playing that degenerate "jazz" music all the kids are so into these days.)
posted by Daily Alice at 10:35 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a parent of a Florida community college student whose likely prospects for a four-year degree would be Florida public universities, I'm trying very hard not to collapse in despair. (He's a music major, I'm trying to tell myself that they're not going to forbid students from playing that degenerate "jazz" music all the kids are so into these days.)
posted by Daily Alice at 10:35 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
What I found most mind boggling about the Slate interview is that a school board chair is content not only to set the threshold for “number of parents who need to team up in order to force my hand on something” at a bargain-basement level of N=3, but that he saw no downside in informing the press!!! I mean… RIP that dude’s mentions, for ever and ever, amen.
posted by eirias at 10:37 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 10:37 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Weirdly - this was a Christian charter school, with the promise of a classical education.
Well, I suppose the last thing they would want, then, is an iconic Renaissance artist depicting a character from the Bible.
Would those 1960s Davey and Goliath clay-animated be acceptable? They are all about young Davey Hansen learning of the wonders of God, but they have a talking dog, so maybe they are Satanic, I dunno? Are Lutherans over in, shall we say, the right-hand column these days?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:40 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Well, I suppose the last thing they would want, then, is an iconic Renaissance artist depicting a character from the Bible.
Would those 1960s Davey and Goliath clay-animated be acceptable? They are all about young Davey Hansen learning of the wonders of God, but they have a talking dog, so maybe they are Satanic, I dunno? Are Lutherans over in, shall we say, the right-hand column these days?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:40 AM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
If only making something off-limits to kids made them want to seek it out it even more.
posted by gottabefunky at 10:43 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 10:43 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Serious question: at what point do non-Florida colleges start rejecting applications from Florida high school students
Hopefully not too soon, as my kids are HS juniors right now, but I get your point. Fortunately, one of the rules related to Advanced Placement classes is that if school districts offer them, they can't change the course material. So kids taking APs, at least, are getting unvarnished knowledge.
Now, you probably remember a few forevers ago (aka, January) when Gov. DeSantis blocked Florida from adopting the AP African American History course, but no way is he going to block the current and popular courses like AP U.S. History, which goes hard on the treatment of indigenous and Black Americans, or AP Modern European History and AP Art History, where students can see Michelangelo's David in all its splendor.
posted by martin q blank at 10:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hopefully not too soon, as my kids are HS juniors right now, but I get your point. Fortunately, one of the rules related to Advanced Placement classes is that if school districts offer them, they can't change the course material. So kids taking APs, at least, are getting unvarnished knowledge.
Now, you probably remember a few forevers ago (aka, January) when Gov. DeSantis blocked Florida from adopting the AP African American History course, but no way is he going to block the current and popular courses like AP U.S. History, which goes hard on the treatment of indigenous and Black Americans, or AP Modern European History and AP Art History, where students can see Michelangelo's David in all its splendor.
posted by martin q blank at 10:47 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Petri is great and I love her writing, but the people on the side of the culture war she's satirizing don't give one tiny shit about being clever. They care about getting the results they want and they're getting them, by legislation and, if necessary, intimidation and force.
So? Can something not be written for the enjoyment of people who would enjoy it? Must everything, even critical humor on a social issue, be persuasive to have value?
posted by misskaz at 10:58 AM on March 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
So? Can something not be written for the enjoyment of people who would enjoy it? Must everything, even critical humor on a social issue, be persuasive to have value?
posted by misskaz at 10:58 AM on March 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
Jamelle Bouie (NYT gift) what is really going on.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:01 AM on March 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
The reality of the “parents’ rights” movement is that it is meant to empower a conservative and reactionary minority of parents to dictate education and curriculums to the rest of the community. It is, in essence, an institutionalization of the heckler’s veto, in which a single parent — or any individual, really — can remove hundreds of books or shut down lessons on the basis of the political discomfort they feel.It's all about minority rule -- of the "Christian" right.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 11:01 AM on March 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yeah I think Petri of all people is well aware? Satire doesn't have to change minds.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:01 AM on March 28, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:01 AM on March 28, 2023
Who do I sue for false advertising? Bust of Nefertiti is some boring statue and not a coproganda episode of the heroes dealing appropriately with those kinds of people.... (Ew)
posted by Jacen at 11:08 AM on March 28, 2023
posted by Jacen at 11:08 AM on March 28, 2023
Florida's schoolchildren should not be allowed to learn about DeSantis. It will make Italian-Americans feel bad about themselves.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:10 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:10 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm trying to tell myself that they're not going to forbid students from playing that degenerate "jazz" music all the kids are so into these days.
Only Nazis would do something like that, and thankfully Nazis aren't around any more.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Only Nazis would do something like that, and thankfully Nazis aren't around any more.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:17 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Serious question: at what point do non-Florida colleges start rejecting applications from Florida high school students, given that they receive maybe 2/3 the education of their non-Florida peers?
Facetious response: To really be on brand they should get 3/5 of the education.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Facetious response: To really be on brand they should get 3/5 of the education.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:18 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
caution live frogs, I didn't fall down, but had that same feeling. And I was still in HS.
And then you went into a gallery around the corner, and there was the Mona Lisa.
posted by Windopaene at 11:44 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
And then you went into a gallery around the corner, and there was the Mona Lisa.
posted by Windopaene at 11:44 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't understand how the people who pull this shit don't understand that they're working at cross purposes of their own goals. Whether it's sex or beer or cigarettes or R-rated movies, nothing gets a young person interested in something like telling them they shouldn't have it until they're an adult. You want to make penises less interesting? Good job, you just put a big neon sign on a penis that says PENIS IS WHERE IT'S AT.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:49 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by armoir from antproof case at 11:49 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just putting a reminder here that many great artists of the Renaissance were shamed during their lives by the same mindset.
Michelangelo died believing he was destined for an afterlife of torment, and Sandro Botticelli put most of his works in the piazza to be burned. The morality brigade made a diaper for David during Bunarotti's lifetime.
I feel so fortunate to have ended up in California after growing up under this sort of oppressive environment in Kentucky. This is why it is important to vote in every single election possible.
posted by effluvia at 11:58 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Michelangelo died believing he was destined for an afterlife of torment, and Sandro Botticelli put most of his works in the piazza to be burned. The morality brigade made a diaper for David during Bunarotti's lifetime.
I feel so fortunate to have ended up in California after growing up under this sort of oppressive environment in Kentucky. This is why it is important to vote in every single election possible.
posted by effluvia at 11:58 AM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The ‘forbidden knowledge’ thing might work for you or I, but there are some people who internalise these rules and keep to them for the rest of their lives.
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The River Ivel at 11:59 AM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: a big neon sign on a penis that says PENIS IS WHERE IT'S AT
posted by indexy at 12:07 PM on March 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by indexy at 12:07 PM on March 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Only Nazis would do something like that, and thankfully Nazis aren't around any more
it so happens that i have heard from folks in a position to know that FL would like us all to tread very carefully about using the name of certain groups that may or may not have fought against the United States in WWII so. Turns out there are no Nazis now and also that there never, ever were.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:27 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
it so happens that i have heard from folks in a position to know that FL would like us all to tread very carefully about using the name of certain groups that may or may not have fought against the United States in WWII so. Turns out there are no Nazis now and also that there never, ever were.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:27 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
it is meant to empower a conservative and reactionary minority of parents to dictate education and curriculums
Reportedly one parent objected to the substance and two others objected to not being notified. And this at a self-described "Christian" school, so there's already self-selection among the parents, teachers, and principal (who previously was "Dean of Students at Christ Classical Academy for more than 10 years"). So the board is bowing to the complaints of the ultraright fringe among a group of parents and teachers that many of us would already consider to be far right.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:31 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Reportedly one parent objected to the substance and two others objected to not being notified. And this at a self-described "Christian" school, so there's already self-selection among the parents, teachers, and principal (who previously was "Dean of Students at Christ Classical Academy for more than 10 years"). So the board is bowing to the complaints of the ultraright fringe among a group of parents and teachers that many of us would already consider to be far right.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 12:31 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The speech Wil Wheaton gave that was cited in another thread was in support of libraries, and contains this gem of quote:
Whenever someone tries to ban a book, they are telling on themselves. They are confessing that they are weak, afraid, and out of control.posted by Gelatin at 12:36 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
It is kind of a horny statue though. I don’t think the line between David and porn is as clear as some critics of the Florida principal want to make it. I mean, to be clear, I don’t think there’s any problem at all showing it to kids and the principal deserves all the mockery he’s getting, but a lot of important art has an erotic element. The artists made it erotic entirely on purpose for viewers to experience. It’s kind of a horny statue! That’s kind of the point of it!
posted by chrchr at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by chrchr at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2023
wut
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on March 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:54 PM on March 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
"Idealized male form" does not necessarily equate to "erotic," let alone "horny."
posted by Gelatin at 1:26 PM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 1:26 PM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
> So? Can something not be written for the enjoyment of people who would enjoy it? Must everything, even critical humor on a social issue, be persuasive to have value?
No, not at all. I just don't find this sort of thing as enjoyable as I used to for the reasons outlined in my comment you were responding to, but I didn't mean to imply that it lacks value or shouldn't be written.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:53 PM on March 28, 2023
No, not at all. I just don't find this sort of thing as enjoyable as I used to for the reasons outlined in my comment you were responding to, but I didn't mean to imply that it lacks value or shouldn't be written.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:53 PM on March 28, 2023
From the slate interview:
We don’t use pronouns.
Ronald, please give the history book that belongs to Ronald to Kate because Kate didn't bring the history book that belongs to Kate and Kate needs the history book that belongs to Ronald so Kate can follow the lesson being taught by the Teacher who is speaking now, thank Ronald.
And by the way, a large number of our students are Title I, from poor families, ... —even poor people have standards.
Emphasis mine.
posted by signal at 2:27 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
We don’t use pronouns.
Ronald, please give the history book that belongs to Ronald to Kate because Kate didn't bring the history book that belongs to Kate and Kate needs the history book that belongs to Ronald so Kate can follow the lesson being taught by the Teacher who is speaking now, thank Ronald.
And by the way, a large number of our students are Title I, from poor families, ... —even poor people have standards.
Emphasis mine.
posted by signal at 2:27 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The only part I love is the school board chair saying,
Well, we’re Florida, OK?
Yes. Yes you are seeming very Florida, indeed.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:30 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, we’re Florida, OK?
Yes. Yes you are seeming very Florida, indeed.
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:30 PM on March 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Michaelangelo's David is decidedly non-horny. Donatello's David, though? That's some Judeo-Christian rowr right there. Donatello's David is definitely dtf.
posted by phooky at 3:35 PM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by phooky at 3:35 PM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Donatello does what Michaelangelon’t.
posted by mbrubeck at 3:36 PM on March 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by mbrubeck at 3:36 PM on March 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Slate ran an interview with the chair of board of the school which was, well, not enlightening exactly but a picture of something.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:37 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Have you heard from parents who disagree about forcing the principal to resign? Or are most of the parents in agreement with this decision?That is a useful rhetorical spin I will have to keep in mind.
We’ll hear from a lot of parents. We have a board meeting on Monday night, our general monthly meeting. We spent probably close to an hour listening to public comment this week, at the special meeting. My intent, and the board’s intent, is not to shut anybody down. There were people hollering for me to step down.
Were those people parents?
You’re not gonna hear from people who are happy about it. If they’re happy, they’re not going to speak at a public meeting.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:37 PM on March 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Those of you in your mid-30s or above may also recall how AG John Ashcroft spent $8000 on curtains to hide the Spirit of Justice during his press conferences. Lady Justice has one breast bared, which Ashcroft apparently found embarrassing.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:20 PM on March 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:20 PM on March 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
My husband grew up in a conservative, evangelical Christian home (although in Canada decades ago, so maybe not the same flavour currently in the USA). We were talking about this issue the other night, and he said he was taught that the statue "represented the deeply Christian message that David went to battle armed with nothing but his faith." Even given how prudish, repressive, and shaming his religious teachers/community were, they didn't fall to Florida's current level.
(Whether "armed with nothing but his faith" is a necessarily Christian message is open for debate, but that's what he was taught.)
posted by angiep at 5:10 PM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
(Whether "armed with nothing but his faith" is a necessarily Christian message is open for debate, but that's what he was taught.)
posted by angiep at 5:10 PM on March 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Talia Lavin:
“Parental rights” obviates the notion that society has a collective responsibility to secure the welfare of children, of course. As former Republican Presidential candidate Rick Santorum put it in a screed entitled “Children Belong to Parents, not Government” from 2013: “So we go from telling the small businessman that ‘you didn't build that’ to telling parents that ‘they don't belong to you!’ It harkens back to Marxism's trumping of the family in favor of the state.”posted by spamandkimchi at 7:57 PM on March 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
As construed by the American right wing, “parental rights” is the most milquetoast way of expressing absolute ownership by parents over children—that children are, in fact, their parents’ property, subject to absolute control, and not accountable to any standard outside the nuclear family unit.
"Idealized male form" does not necessarily equate to "erotic," let alone "horny."
Seconding this - in fact, when he was on Inside the Actors Studio, Daniel Radcliffe told David Lipton about what he called the "Michaelangelo's DAVID effect" when discussing what it was like to do the nude scenes in Equus - that he found that having to strip off in public while doing an intense piece of acting was actually more terrifying than erotic, to the point that it made his junk shrink up into his abdomen like a frightened turtle. He said his friend compared it to David because the moment depicted in the statue was "right before David was about to go fight Goliath", which likely was a scary moment leading to similarly-modest genitalia thereon.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seconding this - in fact, when he was on Inside the Actors Studio, Daniel Radcliffe told David Lipton about what he called the "Michaelangelo's DAVID effect" when discussing what it was like to do the nude scenes in Equus - that he found that having to strip off in public while doing an intense piece of acting was actually more terrifying than erotic, to the point that it made his junk shrink up into his abdomen like a frightened turtle. He said his friend compared it to David because the moment depicted in the statue was "right before David was about to go fight Goliath", which likely was a scary moment leading to similarly-modest genitalia thereon.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:35 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Lady Justice has one breast bared, which Ashcroft apparently found embarrassing.
You’d think he’d be more embarrassed to admit publicly that he found the sight of a carved piece of stone arousing. But hey, no kink-shaming here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:59 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
You’d think he’d be more embarrassed to admit publicly that he found the sight of a carved piece of stone arousing. But hey, no kink-shaming here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:59 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is a good place for a relevant Fry and Lauri skit.
posted by boilermonster at 10:16 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by boilermonster at 10:16 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well they asked for it..."Utah parent says Bible contains porn..." (Salt Lake Tribune)
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 4:20 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Rufous-headed Towhee heehee at 4:20 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
."Utah parent says Bible contains porn..." (Salt Lake Tribune)
GOOD FOR THEM. More of that kind of rabblerousing please.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
GOOD FOR THEM. More of that kind of rabblerousing please.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:46 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just within the last 3 months or so I learned that Michaelangelo's statue of David is not human-size but rather is 17 feet (5.2 m) tall. I must see that! Seems unlikely that it'll go on tour through Oregon, so I guess I will have to go to Florence.
In 2019 we went to NYC. At the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I was absolutely gobsmacked by a marble piece that's called Fragmentary Colossal Head of A Youth. It has occupied a large part of my consciousness ever since. No photo can capture it.
posted by neuron at 8:17 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
In 2019 we went to NYC. At the Metropolitan Museum of Art, I was absolutely gobsmacked by a marble piece that's called Fragmentary Colossal Head of A Youth. It has occupied a large part of my consciousness ever since. No photo can capture it.
posted by neuron at 8:17 AM on March 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Idealized male form" does not necessarily equate to "erotic," let alone "horny."
Nudity, and in particular the classical conceptions of nudity, contain a complex of dimensions. It can be a way of presenting strength and archetypical perfection, and that's mostly how the ancient Greek and Roman world (and by proxy the Renaissance, which adopted a lot of classical ideas, as well as 20th-century Fascism, for the same reasons) viewed it. But it can also be vulnerable and pitiable. It can be grotesque, if presented in a grotesque light. And of course it can be erotic.
While we're at it, the classical world had a pretty distinctive take on dicks (some of which at least might have filtered through to the Renaissance). To put it bluntly, the ancient Greeks, and to a lesser extent Romans, did not regard being well-hung as a good thing at all. There are a lot of quotes from eminent thinkers of the time which boil down to, "a perfect man has a tiny cock", and when they talk about their rivals, it's essentially, "ugh, that guy's such a tool, bet he's hung like a horse". The Greeks had a whole demigod whose domain was "being a dumb asshole with a grotesquely big dick" (Priapus).
This is the kind of stuff I would talk about asked to give a lesson on aesthetics to a group interested in "classics", which is why I'm never getting a job at any of these "classical academies". It's a shame, because there's a lot more to unpack from classical art than, "here's a classical statue, it's very old, IGNORE ITS MANHOOD."
posted by jackbishop at 8:36 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Nudity, and in particular the classical conceptions of nudity, contain a complex of dimensions. It can be a way of presenting strength and archetypical perfection, and that's mostly how the ancient Greek and Roman world (and by proxy the Renaissance, which adopted a lot of classical ideas, as well as 20th-century Fascism, for the same reasons) viewed it. But it can also be vulnerable and pitiable. It can be grotesque, if presented in a grotesque light. And of course it can be erotic.
While we're at it, the classical world had a pretty distinctive take on dicks (some of which at least might have filtered through to the Renaissance). To put it bluntly, the ancient Greeks, and to a lesser extent Romans, did not regard being well-hung as a good thing at all. There are a lot of quotes from eminent thinkers of the time which boil down to, "a perfect man has a tiny cock", and when they talk about their rivals, it's essentially, "ugh, that guy's such a tool, bet he's hung like a horse". The Greeks had a whole demigod whose domain was "being a dumb asshole with a grotesquely big dick" (Priapus).
This is the kind of stuff I would talk about asked to give a lesson on aesthetics to a group interested in "classics", which is why I'm never getting a job at any of these "classical academies". It's a shame, because there's a lot more to unpack from classical art than, "here's a classical statue, it's very old, IGNORE ITS MANHOOD."
posted by jackbishop at 8:36 AM on March 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
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Way to bury the lede.
posted by box at 7:41 AM on March 28, 2023 [3 favorites]