What is paltering?
April 7, 2023 2:28 PM Subscribe
When you say, "I finished my math homework," when in reality all you did was take 5 minutes to write “666” in all of the answer boxes. At Heated Emily Atkin (previously) explains one way fossil fuel companies lie about their actions.
(And like, haven't advertisers and PR people been doing this since forever? "70% fat free!" sure sounds better than "30% fat!" but I wouldn't call it dishonest or a lie just because some people are going to get the wrong impression, even if that is by design.)
posted by Dysk at 2:48 PM on April 7, 2023
posted by Dysk at 2:48 PM on April 7, 2023
I wouldn't call it dishonest or a lie just because some people are going to get the wrong impression, even if that is by design
Intent to give the wrong impression is the very heart of dishonesty.
posted by praemunire at 3:00 PM on April 7, 2023 [21 favorites]
Intent to give the wrong impression is the very heart of dishonesty.
posted by praemunire at 3:00 PM on April 7, 2023 [21 favorites]
I can kinda see that position, and I agree that it is a necessary condition I just disagree that it is sufficient. Regardless of that, calling it dishonest I can see, but calling it a lie is strictly false, no?
posted by Dysk at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2023
posted by Dysk at 3:11 PM on April 7, 2023
from the article:
"its like if the world’s greatest hit man started investing in hospitals, and took out an ad claiming he’s “advancing murder solutions.”
Taking out an ad seems unprofessional and could led to arrest(s).
Oh, wait.
"Paltering helps the hit man give the false impression he’s saving people, when in reality, he still makes all his money killing. Similarly, paltering helps oil companies give the false impression they’re saving the climate, when in reality, they still make all their money destroying it."
In the mist, an insurance policy is a industry standard, though it acts as a impression on saving the hitman more then the victim. Buying out that policy could open up new drilling.
oh, wait.
posted by clavdivs at 3:16 PM on April 7, 2023
"its like if the world’s greatest hit man started investing in hospitals, and took out an ad claiming he’s “advancing murder solutions.”
Taking out an ad seems unprofessional and could led to arrest(s).
Oh, wait.
"Paltering helps the hit man give the false impression he’s saving people, when in reality, he still makes all his money killing. Similarly, paltering helps oil companies give the false impression they’re saving the climate, when in reality, they still make all their money destroying it."
In the mist, an insurance policy is a industry standard, though it acts as a impression on saving the hitman more then the victim. Buying out that policy could open up new drilling.
oh, wait.
posted by clavdivs at 3:16 PM on April 7, 2023
Y'all above are describing 'lies of omission', paltering is 'lying by telling half truth'
Lies of omission are advertising; Environmental laws usually shape the oil industry's 'paltering.' Environmental Impact Statements are usually full of paltering. This is because the National Environmental Policy Act doesn't require a federal action be the least environmentally harmful, it just requires the government take a 'hard look' at those harms--but there cannot be omissions.
Most environmental lawsuits are based on the differential. This does shape the culture of the oil industry, whose companies are half lawyers at this point--the workers were fired in 2020.
posted by eustatic at 3:20 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lies of omission are advertising; Environmental laws usually shape the oil industry's 'paltering.' Environmental Impact Statements are usually full of paltering. This is because the National Environmental Policy Act doesn't require a federal action be the least environmentally harmful, it just requires the government take a 'hard look' at those harms--but there cannot be omissions.
Most environmental lawsuits are based on the differential. This does shape the culture of the oil industry, whose companies are half lawyers at this point--the workers were fired in 2020.
posted by eustatic at 3:20 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not that oil companies don't lie outright! Just that they are studied in the third bit
posted by eustatic at 3:22 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by eustatic at 3:22 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
calling it a lie is strictly false, no?
No. All words require interpretation and context. Without prior (explicit or implicit) negotiation, one cannot arbitrarily exclude certain interpretations of statements. Of course I bring the eye of a lawyer who's worked in consumer protection to this problem, but, frankly, that's more permissive (because grounded in the idea of what ought to be legally actionable) than most standard Western ethical approaches to truthfulness.
posted by praemunire at 3:22 PM on April 7, 2023
No. All words require interpretation and context. Without prior (explicit or implicit) negotiation, one cannot arbitrarily exclude certain interpretations of statements. Of course I bring the eye of a lawyer who's worked in consumer protection to this problem, but, frankly, that's more permissive (because grounded in the idea of what ought to be legally actionable) than most standard Western ethical approaches to truthfulness.
posted by praemunire at 3:22 PM on April 7, 2023
Because paltering requires so much context to detect as a lie, companies can get away with murdering the climate.
Here s a satire of carbon capture, which explains how this lie has worked.
posted by eustatic at 3:28 PM on April 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here s a satire of carbon capture, which explains how this lie has worked.
posted by eustatic at 3:28 PM on April 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Rogers, Todd, et al. paper (the link in TFA after "Introduced in 2016") redefines the old and quite rare word paltering to add a nuance quite absent from previous usage. The paper defines it as the “active use of truthful statements to convey a misleading impression”. While the word was used to include “dishonourable dealing or bargaining”, TFA's author seems rather pleased with this gussied-up word. One cit in J. personality and social psychology doesn't make a scientific definition.
But it's an old word, a small word. It's related to paltry. The lies that the fossil fuel industry tell are not small and worthless. To reduce them to paltering might be exactly what it wants: hey, we're doing no big harms here, don't mind us ...
Also, blogs that demand subscription can fuck right off, especially ones that start with several chatty paras about how great they and their buddies are. No, author of TFA, you did not send me a newsletter earlier this week.
posted by scruss at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
But it's an old word, a small word. It's related to paltry. The lies that the fossil fuel industry tell are not small and worthless. To reduce them to paltering might be exactly what it wants: hey, we're doing no big harms here, don't mind us ...
Also, blogs that demand subscription can fuck right off, especially ones that start with several chatty paras about how great they and their buddies are. No, author of TFA, you did not send me a newsletter earlier this week.
posted by scruss at 3:30 PM on April 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, blogs that demand subscription can fuck right off, especially ones that start with several chatty paras about how great they and their buddies are. No, author of TFA, you did not send me a newsletter earlier this week.
It's a substack, chances are REALLY GOOD that the author did send the audience a newsletter earlier this week. In fact, they did send ME a newsletter earlier this week. If you don't like the format that's one thing, but right now you're being mad that the hosts of a podcast 50 episodes in assume the audience has listened to earlier episodes.
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a substack, chances are REALLY GOOD that the author did send the audience a newsletter earlier this week. In fact, they did send ME a newsletter earlier this week. If you don't like the format that's one thing, but right now you're being mad that the hosts of a podcast 50 episodes in assume the audience has listened to earlier episodes.
posted by Gygesringtone at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
We really need to bring the word truthiness back.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The Simpsons, S11 E03, "Guess Who's Coming to Criticize Dinner":
Newspaper Tour Guide Lady: Each copy contains a certain percentage of recycled material.posted by mhum at 3:56 PM on April 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Lisa: And what percent is that?
Lady: Zero! Zero's a percent.
We really need to bring the word truthiness back.
We need to bring back massive expropriation and flaying alive in public, too.
posted by lalochezia at 4:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
The lies that the fossil fuel industry tell are not small and worthless
The industry is known for bare minimum compliance. That was my interpretation of the phrase, that what the industry claims is true is only true is the most minimal sense.
Some carbon has been successfully injected into the earth. But it is far below the 4000 MT the industry set as a goal decades ago. It s more like 10 MT
Taylor Energy has the longest running oil spill on record in the United States OCS. Taylor claimed they were leaking 3 gallons a day. Taylor kept claiming that until Couvillion, the Clean up company, submitted receipts on the 1000 gallons per day yhey were collecting and selling, into the federal record.
It s these misrepresentations of scale that are at issue.
posted by eustatic at 5:20 PM on April 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
The industry is known for bare minimum compliance. That was my interpretation of the phrase, that what the industry claims is true is only true is the most minimal sense.
Some carbon has been successfully injected into the earth. But it is far below the 4000 MT the industry set as a goal decades ago. It s more like 10 MT
Taylor Energy has the longest running oil spill on record in the United States OCS. Taylor claimed they were leaking 3 gallons a day. Taylor kept claiming that until Couvillion, the Clean up company, submitted receipts on the 1000 gallons per day yhey were collecting and selling, into the federal record.
It s these misrepresentations of scale that are at issue.
posted by eustatic at 5:20 PM on April 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
→
Just over a decade ago, I worked on a team for an energy company that included one of the world's more successful CCS implementation experts. His main effort was bringing CCS to a pilot plant in Alberta (which as far as I know, has never been built). His conclusions were stark: the company could have working CCS, or a net positive energy output from the power plant.
posted by scruss at 7:14 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some carbon has been successfully injected into the earth
Just over a decade ago, I worked on a team for an energy company that included one of the world's more successful CCS implementation experts. His main effort was bringing CCS to a pilot plant in Alberta (which as far as I know, has never been built). His conclusions were stark: the company could have working CCS, or a net positive energy output from the power plant.
posted by scruss at 7:14 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well yeah, that does make sense. It's not like CO2 compresses itself into a liquid and works it s way downhole without enormous pressures, I would guess. To create those pressures, you might need energy
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on April 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also Why does Exxon need a 170 blocks of the ocean to do carbon injection? Every other company seems to be getting along fine with just 30000 acres or so.
It looks more like Exxon is saying that it is leasing the ocean of the United States for carbon capture, but what they're really doing is occupying the good areas for Offshore Wind power that could put them out of business. Because the government has allowed them to lease everything off of Texas, they can block any power transmission lines going through their Leases.
posted by eustatic at 8:55 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
It looks more like Exxon is saying that it is leasing the ocean of the United States for carbon capture, but what they're really doing is occupying the good areas for Offshore Wind power that could put them out of business. Because the government has allowed them to lease everything off of Texas, they can block any power transmission lines going through their Leases.
posted by eustatic at 8:55 PM on April 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
The puzzle here is not if they're lying, which is a semantic detail. Lying is employed with the goal of deceiving, as is paltering, whether you consider it to be a lie or not. So when people infer what they were intended to infer, and the thing they were intended to infer is deceptive, I think it's safe to say that is morally wrong even if an untruth was not told.
You can educate people to think more critically, but I would view this as an arms race - can they find better ways to be deceptive that you don't uncover?
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:15 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can educate people to think more critically, but I would view this as an arms race - can they find better ways to be deceptive that you don't uncover?
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 10:15 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can educate people to think more critically, but I would view this as an arms race - can they find better ways to be deceptive that you don't uncover?
I dunno, it's basically the same tactics that have been used my entire life. I'd argue that a lot of the deception in the food and drinks industry is worse ("juice drink" is not juice, for example). In either case, the approach is the same: note what they say, note just as much what they don't say, and consider what agenda it serves.
posted by Dysk at 11:09 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I dunno, it's basically the same tactics that have been used my entire life. I'd argue that a lot of the deception in the food and drinks industry is worse ("juice drink" is not juice, for example). In either case, the approach is the same: note what they say, note just as much what they don't say, and consider what agenda it serves.
posted by Dysk at 11:09 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's seems like an odd word but also a useful one - a term I didn't quite realize we were missing for something very common.
posted by blue shadows at 11:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by blue shadows at 11:12 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can educate people to think more critically
Much like CCS as a proposal for addressing AGW, this point founders on the rock of scale.
And much like CCS as a proposed use for the energy output of a coal fired generator, it also founders on the rock of counterproductivity. Anybody in control of enough resources to deliver that education on anything like a consequential scale almost certainly got into that position by means that would rapidly become unworkable if critical thinking were ever to become widespread. Even staying in any such position would become untenable to any being with the temerity to apply critical thinking to its own activities and choices.
Which is exactly why the resources available for the teaching of critical thinking continue to be so massively overshadowed by those devoted to promotion of spectator sports that inculcate uncritical identity dilution, celebrity culture that inculcates uncritical parasociality, culture-war horseshit that perpetuates uncritical grievance misallocation, and consumerist hucksterism for the uncritical creation of endless spurious need. We are restless monkeys in tall hats, so there's a clear niche for suppliers of hats and restlessness.
None of those promotion programs relies on thinking at all, critical or otherwise; in fact, all of them actively suppress it. They use and build suggestibility, a quality that's hardwired into every human being and which no amount of critical thinking can ever completely overcome.
Paltering leverages the same mechanism. When Exxon draws attention to something they're doing that's actually completely inconsequential in order to distract from all the destructive shit they've been getting away with for decades, they're doing that exactly because it creates a suggestion that they're part of the solution rather than a perfect example of almost all of the problem. And suggestions like that remain effective even though clearly and completely indefensible by anything resembling critical reasoning.
posted by flabdablet at 2:18 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Much like CCS as a proposal for addressing AGW, this point founders on the rock of scale.
And much like CCS as a proposed use for the energy output of a coal fired generator, it also founders on the rock of counterproductivity. Anybody in control of enough resources to deliver that education on anything like a consequential scale almost certainly got into that position by means that would rapidly become unworkable if critical thinking were ever to become widespread. Even staying in any such position would become untenable to any being with the temerity to apply critical thinking to its own activities and choices.
Which is exactly why the resources available for the teaching of critical thinking continue to be so massively overshadowed by those devoted to promotion of spectator sports that inculcate uncritical identity dilution, celebrity culture that inculcates uncritical parasociality, culture-war horseshit that perpetuates uncritical grievance misallocation, and consumerist hucksterism for the uncritical creation of endless spurious need. We are restless monkeys in tall hats, so there's a clear niche for suppliers of hats and restlessness.
None of those promotion programs relies on thinking at all, critical or otherwise; in fact, all of them actively suppress it. They use and build suggestibility, a quality that's hardwired into every human being and which no amount of critical thinking can ever completely overcome.
Paltering leverages the same mechanism. When Exxon draws attention to something they're doing that's actually completely inconsequential in order to distract from all the destructive shit they've been getting away with for decades, they're doing that exactly because it creates a suggestion that they're part of the solution rather than a perfect example of almost all of the problem. And suggestions like that remain effective even though clearly and completely indefensible by anything resembling critical reasoning.
posted by flabdablet at 2:18 AM on April 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Further to that point: it seems to me that we'd get better mileage out of hammering the already familiar term "greenwashing" over the less familiar "paltering". The meanings are close enough within the context we care about, and familiarity improves suggestibility.
posted by flabdablet at 2:28 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 2:28 AM on April 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seems to me that “greenwashing” is not a strict subset of “paltering,” even ignoring the fact that “paltering” can be used to describe tactics used in other reprehensible industries and professions, e.g., health insurance, politics, car sales, etc.
So even though they’ve repurposed the word it seems useful to me.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 1:33 PM on April 9, 2023
So even though they’ve repurposed the word it seems useful to me.
posted by Gilgamesh's Chauffeur at 1:33 PM on April 9, 2023
"Like, the hitman investing in hospitals is investing in the health and well-being of a community, that's not deceptive! It's only if you infer things that aren't said that you end up with anything deceptive. "
'It's only if you engage in the normal conventions of human conversation that it's deceptive!'
Not the be-all, end-all, but Grice's maxims for conversation predict why this would be a violation to punish.
"(And like, haven't advertisers and PR people been doing this since forever? "70% fat free!" sure sounds better than "30% fat!" but I wouldn't call it dishonest or a lie just because some people are going to get the wrong impression, even if that is by design.)"
Yes, advertising is dishonest, in multiple ways. Bill Hicks is passe because people thought he was the last word, and mistook yelling for insight, but fer chrissakes if you're gonna swim in a modern media stew, you should be able to distinguish puffery from paltering from flat bullshit, all of which show up in ads on the regular
[Puffery is statements of opinion that are understood to be faff — "the best dishwashing liquid!"; paltering is disingenuous truth — "now greener than ever!" and probably better known as "spin"; bullshit is statements where the speaker doesn't care whether they're true or not — "Make America great again!"]
"I can kinda see that position, and I agree that it is a necessary condition I just disagree that it is sufficient. Regardless of that, calling it dishonest I can see, but calling it a lie is strictly false, no?"
It's an attempt to intentionally mislead through misleadingly true statements — I have a feeling you've complained about political spin in the past. I'm sure that if you gave a couple minutes thought to, say, how right wing politicians represent outliers in the LGBT community as emblematic of the entirety, you could come up with several examples that specifically angered you.
"But it's an old word, a small word. It's related to paltry. The lies that the fossil fuel industry tell are not small and worthless. To reduce them to paltering might be exactly what it wants: hey, we're doing no big harms here, don't mind us ..."
That's an unsupported but supposed etymology, and doesn't imply their lies are paltry, only that they've provided a paltry portion of the truth to deceive people.
"I dunno, it's basically the same tactics that have been used my entire life. I'd argue that a lot of the deception in the food and drinks industry is worse ("juice drink" is not juice, for example)."
While one can be annoyed by calling Hi-C a juice drink, I'm going to push back and say that the sheer scale of the oil extraction industry on climate change and pollution deception has had several orders of magnitude higher costs, and will continue to far in the future. Putting forth the idea of juice drinks as an "everybody does it" defense of oil company deception would, in fact, be paltering if an oil company said it.
posted by klangklangston at 12:45 AM on April 10, 2023
'It's only if you engage in the normal conventions of human conversation that it's deceptive!'
Not the be-all, end-all, but Grice's maxims for conversation predict why this would be a violation to punish.
"(And like, haven't advertisers and PR people been doing this since forever? "70% fat free!" sure sounds better than "30% fat!" but I wouldn't call it dishonest or a lie just because some people are going to get the wrong impression, even if that is by design.)"
Yes, advertising is dishonest, in multiple ways. Bill Hicks is passe because people thought he was the last word, and mistook yelling for insight, but fer chrissakes if you're gonna swim in a modern media stew, you should be able to distinguish puffery from paltering from flat bullshit, all of which show up in ads on the regular
[Puffery is statements of opinion that are understood to be faff — "the best dishwashing liquid!"; paltering is disingenuous truth — "now greener than ever!" and probably better known as "spin"; bullshit is statements where the speaker doesn't care whether they're true or not — "Make America great again!"]
"I can kinda see that position, and I agree that it is a necessary condition I just disagree that it is sufficient. Regardless of that, calling it dishonest I can see, but calling it a lie is strictly false, no?"
It's an attempt to intentionally mislead through misleadingly true statements — I have a feeling you've complained about political spin in the past. I'm sure that if you gave a couple minutes thought to, say, how right wing politicians represent outliers in the LGBT community as emblematic of the entirety, you could come up with several examples that specifically angered you.
"But it's an old word, a small word. It's related to paltry. The lies that the fossil fuel industry tell are not small and worthless. To reduce them to paltering might be exactly what it wants: hey, we're doing no big harms here, don't mind us ..."
That's an unsupported but supposed etymology, and doesn't imply their lies are paltry, only that they've provided a paltry portion of the truth to deceive people.
"I dunno, it's basically the same tactics that have been used my entire life. I'd argue that a lot of the deception in the food and drinks industry is worse ("juice drink" is not juice, for example)."
While one can be annoyed by calling Hi-C a juice drink, I'm going to push back and say that the sheer scale of the oil extraction industry on climate change and pollution deception has had several orders of magnitude higher costs, and will continue to far in the future. Putting forth the idea of juice drinks as an "everybody does it" defense of oil company deception would, in fact, be paltering if an oil company said it.
posted by klangklangston at 12:45 AM on April 10, 2023
I find this argument kind of weak. Sure, oil companies palter and deceive, but would it even matter if they told the truth? The truth is that people like driving, and aren't going to give it up without a fight, and that Joe Biden gets to call himself the 'greenest president' while 100% supporting the tiniest incremental changes to the status quo is the biggest joke.
Instead of applying to oil companies (which I agree greenwashing is good enough), 'paltering' should be the lies we tell ourselves about how things work like "juice-drink is close enough and little kids don't care anyways" and "Oooh- if it weren't for those evil oil companies, I'd be walking to the store!"
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:01 AM on April 10, 2023
Instead of applying to oil companies (which I agree greenwashing is good enough), 'paltering' should be the lies we tell ourselves about how things work like "juice-drink is close enough and little kids don't care anyways" and "Oooh- if it weren't for those evil oil companies, I'd be walking to the store!"
posted by The_Vegetables at 10:01 AM on April 10, 2023
I have a feeling you've complained about political spin in the past. I'm sure that if you gave a couple minutes thought to, say, how right wing politicians represent outliers in the LGBT community as emblematic of the entirety, you could come up with several examples that specifically angered you.
Literally fucking shaking with rage. How fucking dare you? Try to use my sexuality, my gender as a stick to beat me with in an argument? That is so far beyond the pale that I cannot even. Fuming. Utterly disgusting behaviour.
And NO. I am not in danger here because of some fucking "paltering" lalala-not-touching-you dance around the truth. The bigots just straight up lie, they state opinions as fact, they don't have enough regard due the truth to go anywhere near this bullshit.
Fucking disappointed in mefi that I have to entertain this kind of bullshit.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on April 11, 2023
Literally fucking shaking with rage. How fucking dare you? Try to use my sexuality, my gender as a stick to beat me with in an argument? That is so far beyond the pale that I cannot even. Fuming. Utterly disgusting behaviour.
And NO. I am not in danger here because of some fucking "paltering" lalala-not-touching-you dance around the truth. The bigots just straight up lie, they state opinions as fact, they don't have enough regard due the truth to go anywhere near this bullshit.
Fucking disappointed in mefi that I have to entertain this kind of bullshit.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on April 11, 2023
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posted by Dysk at 2:45 PM on April 7, 2023 [1 favorite]