That Fucking Guy ordered to pay E. Jean Carroll $5MM

May 9, 2023 1:37 PM

NY jury finds TFG liable for sexual assault, defamation in E. Jean Carroll trial.

Just like you figured, he already said some ridiculous bullshit about "unconstitutional silencing" (not true, obviously), it's "a disgrace," etc. Most of it was in all caps, as he does. Naturally, Fox News reports he's going to appeal and doesn't even know who she is.

Vanity Fair says the verdict is "stunning clarity." Slate says the money isn't the real win (archive). Ryan Goodman at Just Security thinks the peer-reviewed data shows this is really going to hurt his 2024 chances. Business Insider says it won't affect his support base much, if at all.

Oh, and for no particular reason, here's an article from International Living on moving away from the US for good.

posted by DirtyOldTown (211 comments total)

HA Ha!
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:40 PM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

Thank you, E. Jean Caroll.
posted by BibiRose at 1:41 PM on May 9, 2023 [99 favorites]

Rather disappointed with the headline from The Guardian on this: Donald Trump claims sexual abuse verdict a disgrace after being told to pay E Jean Carroll $5m in damages
posted by hippybear at 1:43 PM on May 9, 2023 [24 favorites]

I realize this is: a) newsfilter; b) US politics; and c) about the worst person alive. But it seems clear people are going to have some kind of feelings about this, so I figure it was better we could put them into one easily-skippable thread than to have them leak into other threads where people who never want to think about this stuff are minding their own business.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:45 PM on May 9, 2023 [52 favorites]

Any headline that centers on Trump and his response is bullshit
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:45 PM on May 9, 2023 [56 favorites]

I hate that he has done so much harm to women both individually and collectively, but I love that women are looking to be the ones that’ll take him down. Finally.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:46 PM on May 9, 2023 [33 favorites]

I could watch that guy lose every day.
posted by heyho at 1:46 PM on May 9, 2023 [57 favorites]

"Ryan Goodman at Just Security thinks the peer-reviewed data shows this is really going to hurt his 2024 chances."

Uh huh. Credible allegations have surrounded Donnie for decades -- and his supporters chose not to believe women. If the Access Hollywood tape didn't make a dent, why would this? Now his supporters are of open minds, willing to accept a court's finding?

This is the sureliest surely this of surely thisses.
posted by Capt. Renault at 1:49 PM on May 9, 2023 [45 favorites]

from a few days ago. Not satire, 100% Real.

Video of Trump confusing E Jean Carroll with ex-wife in deposition is released

posted by lalochezia at 1:53 PM on May 9, 2023 [22 favorites]

I’m not particularly hopeful about whether this will affect his supporters, but I am grateful to E. Jean Carroll and supporting witnesses, and feel at least some relief at the verdict. Ugh. I’ll take it.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 1:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

I’ve sat on juries. Three hours of deliberation is freaking quick, especially for such a high-profile case. My guess is there were only one or two jurors on the fence and they needed convinced.
posted by Thorzdad at 1:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [37 favorites]

Even if his base "believed" that he assaulted someone, would they care? Doubtful. I think many Trump supporters, especially the cis-het-white-males, love the idea that he does whatever / grabs whatever he wants because they can live vicariously through his criminality. They just don't want him to get caught, because that fuels the fantasy that they could also do whatever they want.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:55 PM on May 9, 2023 [24 favorites]

Imagine how happy we'd have been about this verdict during the 2016 campaign, when we thought there still were norms and decency.

I'm still happy he lost the case, it just seems it won't change much. Then again, this was justice for E. Jean Caroll, not all of us, and he gets to pay 5 millions, which I'm sure still stings so that's that!
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:56 PM on May 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

He'll fleece his base for the money to pay this off, and they'll line up to take part.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 1:57 PM on May 9, 2023 [22 favorites]

"liable for sexual assault but not rape"?

Weird. But much better than nothing.
posted by clawsoon at 1:59 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I did love the closing argument that went (paraphrased but only barely): "You can either believe the guy famous for constantly lying when he says he is the only one telling the truth and he did not do the kind of thing he said on tape he does and thus everyone else is lying, or you can hold him liable."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:59 PM on May 9, 2023 [37 favorites]

I'm not sure either what practical effect it will have, but in those few minutes before the results were announced, I was convinced it wasn't good and I was just heartbroken. And then, she won! To see a woman believed in this situation, with a jury that sounds to have scared Carroll's supporters a bit (one of them sneering?), is so sweet.
posted by BibiRose at 2:01 PM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

Hr should have just paid her hush-oh yeah.
posted by East14thTaco at 2:02 PM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Maybe the grimmest thought that entered my head is that both of these things could be true: Trump raped E. Jean Carroll; and Trump has no recollection of that and does not know who she is.

Because, indications are: he's raped lots of people. And he doesn't seem the type to remember them all.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:05 PM on May 9, 2023 [86 favorites]

from a few days ago. Not satire, 100% Real

The whole video is gonzo. He sat there insulting the appearance of the (female) lawyer asking him the questions. He couldn't resist being a misogynistic dick for an hour to try to save $5 million and some reputation.
posted by Candleman at 2:11 PM on May 9, 2023 [25 favorites]

"Historically, that's true with stars... If you look over the last million years, I guess that's been largely true, not always but largely true, unfortunately or fortunately."

"Do you consider yourself to be a star?"

"I think you could say that, yeah."
posted by box at 2:15 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

I still have not got past Trump saying, in a live, televised debate that Megyn Kelly was treating him badly because she was 'probably bleeding out of her whatever' and people voted for that man... and that was nothing, only the beginning. I don't know what makes anyone think this will affect his supporters' opinion of him.

But thank you to E. Jean Carroll, for standing your ground and pushing back.
posted by maggiemaggie at 2:18 PM on May 9, 2023 [36 favorites]

In a sane world Trump would already be hiding at the deep end of a hole somewhere shunned by us all (see also, Brett Kavanaugh). I hope E. Jean Carroll actually sees a chunk of the cash and it helps for all she went though and has done to stand up to Trump.

But, Trump will almost certainly still be the Republican nominee. It will still likely come down to a few tens of thousands of votes in a couple of key states. We still live within a gerrymandered whisker of waking up with a NPR news broadcast after November 5, 2024 that "VP-elect Marjorie Taylor Greene will join President-elect Trump at Mar-a-Lago today to begin planning the hand-over to their administration, and both are already promising swift revenge on all those who stood against them, including those who challenged President-elect Trump in the courts these last four years."
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:19 PM on May 9, 2023 [12 favorites]

He couldn't resist being a misogynistic dick for an hour to try to save $5 million and some reputation.

I get the feeling that he was saving his reputation, as he sees it, because the reputation he cares about is the one where he demeans and sexually assaults women and that means he's a star.
posted by clawsoon at 2:28 PM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]

Maybe the grimmest thought that entered my head is that both of these things could be true: Trump raped E. Jean Carroll; and Trump has no recollection of that and does not know who she is.

Because, indications are: he's raped lots of people. And he doesn't seem the type to remember them all.

Do rapists know who they raped? It probably depends on why they raped them. Sexual assault of any kind is almost always about power, not sex. So it depends on what type of power the rapist was trying to assert.

My thoughts about why he chose to assault E. Jean Carroll are not fully developed, but I do think he remembers the act, while he probably doesn't remember the face. Trump really wanted to be part of high society and somehow never succeeded. Perhaps he wasn't assaulting Carroll specifically, but more what she represented in his twisted mind.
posted by mumimor at 2:30 PM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Wonder how discussions at CNN about the Trump town hall tomorrow are going? I mean....giving a sexual abuser national air time in a town hall format, just a day after this jury decision. That would be a hell of a thing. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they decide to cancel it.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 2:34 PM on May 9, 2023 [15 favorites]

Kudos for that fucking guy usage in the headline and for the post as a whole. Thanks!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:34 PM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]

But, Trump will almost certainly still be the Republican nominee. It will still likely come down to a few tens of thousands of votes in a couple of key states.

Look on the bright side - he could be dead by then!
posted by tiny frying pan at 2:36 PM on May 9, 2023 [16 favorites]

It won't affect his die-hard supporters, nothing will, they're beyond reason. But those are the people still showing up at his dumbass rallies and those crowds got small.

Like any group of people, they're not a monolith and there are a plenty of people that this will get them to stay home and still others that won't be able to hold their noses and vote for him again.

Every time he loses it chips away a few more of them. Honestly, I don't think there can be all that many left. More than we'd all like of course but his chances at winning an election have to be as low as they've every been.
posted by VTX at 2:36 PM on May 9, 2023 [9 favorites]

Wonder how discussions at CNN about the Trump town hall tomorrow are going? I mean....giving a sexual abuser national air time in a town hall format, just a day after this jury decision. That would be a hell of a thing. I'll be pleasantly surprised if they decide to cancel it.

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

Can we locate a middle-aged or older woman that Trump won't find attractive to aske him about sexual assault so he will flip the fuck out and melt down on live TV? I'd contribute to a GoFundMe to make sure she can skip off to Bali and never work again.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:40 PM on May 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

That deposition video in the unconstitutional silencing link is hilarious. He just goes on and on to what should have been a simple yes or no.
posted by Mitheral at 2:45 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

Is ... is E. Jean Carroll available?
posted by riverlife at 2:46 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Guilty, Guilty, Guilty!!
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

"liable for sexual assault but not rape"?

Weird. But much better than nothing.

Someone posted on twitter that this is because Carroll says she did not see his penis (because it was small) and the argument then is that it's possible it was his finger, therefore assault and not rape.

But does a penis have to be involved in rape? Doesn't it pass assault and get to rape when there's penetration of any kind?

And... no explanation of how his finger ejaculated. Or, perhaps, the dress was not allowed as evidence because there was no DNA submitted by Trump. And why the fuck is not submitting allowed?
posted by dobbs at 2:55 PM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

Of sexual abuse cases reported to law enforcement, 93% of juvenile victims knew the perpetrator:

59% were acquaintances
34% were family members
7% were strangers to the victim

Perpetrators of Sexual Violence: Statistics


The study revealed that 16% of murder victims were members of the defendant' s family.
64% were killed by friends or acquaintances while only 20% were killed by strangers.
57% of all murdered children under the age of 12 were killed by their parents.
11 % of all victims over 60 were killed by their children.
45% of family murder victims were female compared to only 18% of non-family murder victims.

Prison Legal News: Most Murders by Friends and Family
posted by y2karl at 2:56 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

It would be pretty funny if the CNN audience was packed with people who would spend the whole time roasting the shit out of Trump with question after question until he stormed out. Maybe if we all dream it, it will happen.
posted by interogative mood at 3:01 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

Wonder how discussions at CNN about the Trump town hall tomorrow are going?

I'm pretty confident a town hall featuring the only declared candidate of one of the two main political parties of the USA nine months before the primaries is gong to happen as scheduled.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 3:06 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

If you're a major American media outlet there's only one rule for covering Trump: ABN (Always Be Normalizing).
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:08 PM on May 9, 2023 [13 favorites]

But does a penis have to be involved in rape

The legal definition of rape depends on the jurisdiction. Lots of places absent PIV it is called something else while still being rape colloquially.

And why the fuck is not submitting allowed?

Juries can infer guilt from silence in civil trials. IE if the DNA would prove your innocence why wouldn't you submit a sample?
posted by Mitheral at 3:14 PM on May 9, 2023 [11 favorites]

a town hall featuring the only declared candidate of one of the two main political parties

Biden formally declared his candidacy two weeks ago, but yeah, I don't see CNN backing out of it, although I hope every single question is about this case and the rest of his criminal and civil suits.
posted by jedicus at 3:15 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

"Ryan Goodman at Just Security thinks the peer-reviewed data shows this is really going to hurt his 2024 chances."

Lol. I'm glad to see him take an L but I think people need to understand when they speculate about his supporters are that they are not actually following any real news about Trump. They are not interested in reading articles about him, they are not interested in hearing about what he did or whether he got arrested or whether he is liable in a civil suit etc etc and blah blah blah. It's boring to them. Booorrring. They don't give a shit. To them its just more annoying media noise, the damn media always squawking and complaining about something or other with the guy and trying to "get him", because obviously the media hates Trump, and they hate him because he tells it like it is and pisses off the libs and the elites. I have a hunch that this is their mindset, they are not analyzing anything deeper than that.
posted by windbox at 3:16 PM on May 9, 2023 [19 favorites]

a town hall featuring the only declared candidate of one of the two main political parties

Biden formally declared his candidacy two weeks ago

Trump is the only declared candidate of the Republican partiy, one of the two main political parties.

That sentence wasn't about the total number of declared candidates, it was about how many had declared for one of the major parties.

I had to parse it a dozen times because I was going to make this same response comment about Biden before I realized what it was actually saying.
posted by hippybear at 3:19 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I think this was in contrast to other such town hall events which usually have more than one person being confronted by the general populace in the form of the town hall audience.
posted by hippybear at 3:20 PM on May 9, 2023

So.. MeFite legal professionals - can anyone comment on what rules were required in order for the jury to reach a verdict in this civil matter (for example: a majority, some supermajority, or unanimity?) and how that compares to a criminal proceeding?

As I understand it, one of the fears about proceeding with criminal charges against Trump is the untested but plausible theory that it would be enormously difficult to empanel a jury capable of finding him unanimously guilty, no matter how compelling the evidence, because of the significant fraction of the American electorate who are willing to excuse him for just about anything. There are surely other reasons for prosecutors to be enormously cautious about directing charges at Trump, too, but I think the risk of a single MAGA juror refusing under any circumstances to convict has always been a concern.

Obviously one can't draw any firm conclusions about what another jury will do in another case, but.. is there talk in the legal profession about whether the quick return of this civil verdict has any bearing on people's belief in Trump's theoretical jury immunity?
posted by Nerd of the North at 3:20 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

Civil matters are 50.1 percent in favor of "he's likely to have done it" as opposed to "beyond a reasonable doubt" of criminal trials.

I'm not a legal professional but I've listened to enough podcasts about this that I could have a specialized certificate.
posted by hippybear at 3:25 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

He'll fleece his base for the money to pay this off, and they'll line up to take part.

Eh, it’s $5M that won’t go to other evil.
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:28 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Yeah for civil trials it’s preponderance of the evidence , often described in law school as 51%. Reasoning is that taking someone’s money is not as serious as taking their liberty (prison time).
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:28 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

a majority, some supermajority, or unanimity?

I could swear either the Guardian or CNN article I read said it was a unanimous verdict, but the first place I found confirmation was Reuters - Trump sexually abused writer E. Jean Carroll, must pay her $5 million, jury says:

The jury, required to reach a unanimous verdict, deliberated for just under three hours. Its six men and three women awarded Carroll $5 million in compensatory and punitive damages...

posted by kristi at 3:39 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Trump's lawyer made a lot of headlines for taking an extremely classic aggressive approach to Carroll, insisting that she must be lying because she didn't scream and other "you didn't do getting raped right" arguments. It's good that the jury, where men outnumbered women by two to one, didn't buy it this time.
posted by trig at 3:41 PM on May 9, 2023 [16 favorites]

If anything, I'd say this helps his chances - it feeds his witch-hunt narrative.

I am curious at what point at least some evangelicals would break with him, especially now that they've got their right-leaning Supreme Court. But I don't think it will be this.
posted by coffeecat at 3:43 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

There's a difference between a unanimous jury (all the people agree on this) and the standards by which they agree -- it's mostly likely they did this (preponderance of the evidence, doubt can be involved, we all agree this is what likely happened) or "without a reasonable doubt" (nothing makes us think this isn't the truth about what happened).

A unanimous jury can agree to one without agreeing on the other.

EDIT: I mean, a group of people could agree unanimously on the lower standard than the higher. So unanimity has nothing to do with the standard of justice used by the trial.
posted by hippybear at 3:44 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I get the feeling that he was saving his reputation, as he sees it, because the reputation he cares about is the one where he demeans and sexually assaults women and that means he's a star.

When delusional has-beens are your role models, you ARE a star.
posted by ikahime at 3:45 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

as of today Declared 2024 Republican presidential candidates

TFG
Nikki Haley
Asa Hutchinson
Vivek Ramaswamy
posted by djseafood at 3:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

Business Insider says it won't affect his support base much, if at all.

They're right, of course it won't, and at this point none of us should be surprised or disappointed at this. As Amanda Marcotte @ Salon.com points out - Trump's rape deposition tape shows exactly why MAGA loves him.

This'll get some folks who might reflexively vote R in a general election to pass on him in 2024, and will fire up some others to work harder on drumming up the anti-Trump vote.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

So, what's the shortest, most awful-est, legally accurate way we can refer to his crime, now? I was looking forward to calling him a convicted rapist at every opportunity, but this verdict has robbed me of that. Is "convicted sexual assaulter Donald Trump" the best/worst I've got?
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

Hope about "Habitual Loser Donald Trump?"
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:59 PM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

Is he now a registered sex offender? that has a nice ring to it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:00 PM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

So, what's the shortest, most awful-est, legally accurate way we can refer to his crime, now?

Convicted sex offender?

Or is that only applicable as a result of a criminal conviction?
posted by wkearney99 at 4:01 PM on May 9, 2023

Donny Thumbdick



ETA: yeah yeah feel free to nix
posted by riverlife at 4:04 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

He hasn't been convicted criminally of anything. So I don't think offender registration is a part of this.

This civil suit was about specifically how Trump treated Carroll and the damages it caused her then and from then until now.

He's been found guilty of sexual assault in a court of law, so he's a convicted sexual assailant. But he's not a sex offender because that's a criminal designation.
posted by hippybear at 4:06 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Important to note this was a civil trial - not criminal - so he hasn't been convicted of any crime. So no sex offender registry, no criminal record etc. Just monetary liability for defamation and sexual assault and forcible touching.

I guess you can accurately say "Trump was found liable for sexual assault". Doesn't have the same ring to it...
posted by inflatablekiwi at 4:06 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

If anything, I'd say this helps his chances - it feeds his witch-hunt narrative.

He’s already claiming he wasn’t allowed to to testify. And, you know his minions are going to take that as gospel.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:07 PM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

(Metafilter: Maybe if we all dream it, it will happen.)
posted by runincircles at 4:24 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

As usual, Beau has a good video about this.
posted by xedrik at 4:27 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

I get the impulse to jump straight to how this will affect the political situation for TFG, the Republican Party, and the US as a whole, but I would much prefer to focus on this:
This was a he said/she said case. The alleged assault was decades ago. There was no physical evidence. E Jean Carroll was subjected to an aggressive and zealous cross-examination by a lawyer who impugned her honor, her memory, her motives, and her humanity. And a jury (made of two-thirds men!) believed her. They believed her.

As a survivor who was not believed, I wept. I raised a class to my hero E. Jean, and I poured one out for Christine, and I downed a third for my younger self.
posted by minervous at 4:30 PM on May 9, 2023 [123 favorites]

Do you think the papers/info will be at the Trump Presidential Library?
posted by robbyrobs at 4:31 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm honestly surprised Trump didn't have a "YOU'RE GODDAMN RIGHT I DID!" moment during the deposition. I guess he came pretty close, and almost certainly would have if he'd taken the stand.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:36 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

Do you think the papers/info will be at the Trump Presidential Library?

Prison libraries are notoriously short on space, so who knows.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 4:45 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm hoping that some of his appeal is that he gets away with things, and this tiem he didn't, but we'll have to see.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 4:48 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

I am curious at what point at least some evangelicals would break with him, especially now that they've got their right-leaning Supreme Court.

I believe that Jordan Klepper had this covered in 2016 and that it is still true today.
posted by y2karl at 4:53 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

There was no physical evidence.

There was, but it's complicated.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:54 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

I think, in terms of not getting away with things, it's a bit like a world where a normal person gets to rape/sexually assault someone else and then pay a $2500 judgement. It's very far from a really significant fine for him.
posted by jaduncan at 4:54 PM on May 9, 2023

The one-two punch of this news and then a couple hours later this headline put a great big smile on my face today: George Santos Is Said to Face Federal Criminal Charges

They'll whine and weasel and use it to raise money from their "base," and I'm still going to smile.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:07 PM on May 9, 2023 [10 favorites]

Will he stiff this lawyer since he lost?
posted by njohnson23 at 5:07 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

That Just Security analysis wins the Stupidest Thing on the Internet today. A jury decision is not "proof." If they had ruled for him, it wouldn't have changed my mind, so I have no expectation that his loss will change his supporters' minds.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 5:19 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

And, you know his minions are going to take that as gospel.

Just as the evangelicals that support him take the Earth's age at about 6000 years old as gospel even though Pinocchilini says powerful men who are stars have been fortunately sexually assaulting for a million years (which is, of course, in terms of time, is also contrary to current evidence for the existence of the homo related line of primates).
posted by juiceCake at 5:22 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

I have no idea what will happen politically, but the part Trump's base might care about is that Trump is a loser. Again.
posted by mark k at 5:37 PM on May 9, 2023 [8 favorites]

“THIS VERDICT IS A DISGRACE - A CONTINUATION OF THE GREATEST WITCH HUNT OF ALL TIME.”

Sorry to break it to you Donald, but a witch hunt is unjust only if - in fact - you are not a witch.
posted by tim_in_oz at 5:39 PM on May 9, 2023 [3 favorites]

I just wish usenet killfiles worked irl.
posted by allium cepa at 5:49 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

And... no explanation of how his finger ejaculated. Or, perhaps, the dress was not allowed as evidence because there was no DNA submitted by Trump. And why the fuck is not submitting allowed?

Wait!?? What??!! She kept the dress with Trump’s jizz all that time? Would it even be conserved/usable? Or was that from an analysis done at time of the event.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 5:49 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

He just refrained from submitting it aside from a fakeout as an attempt to derail the timeline of the trial. From what I’ve heard about the conditions it’s been kept in an argument could be made that the evidence has degraded and I don’t know how successful data collection would be.
posted by Selena777 at 6:26 PM on May 9, 2023

Will he stiff this lawyer since he lost?

Wouldn't he have even if he'd won?
posted by VTX at 6:31 PM on May 9, 2023 [4 favorites]

This will have little effect on his political support as it merely feeds their persecution complex, the same complex that fuels outrage about coffee cups, mermaids, and tan suits. Now that there really are people "out to get him" he'll merely double down and they'll gladly follow.
posted by dances with hamsters at 6:33 PM on May 9, 2023 [1 favorite]

A jury verdict is *not* proof-- look at exonerations. I think there's good enough evidence in this case.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:36 PM on May 9, 2023

TIL TFG
posted by y2karl at 8:05 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

..a witch hunt is unjust only if - in fact - you are not a witch.

But if it's a Golem hunt? There's no escape.

Game over. Meet the new TFG.
posted by y2karl at 8:12 PM on May 9, 2023

don’t know how successful data collection would be.

They recently did a DNA analysis of the wearer of a 20,000 year old deer tooth pendant so it's not out of the realm of possibility.
posted by Mitheral at 8:17 PM on May 9, 2023 [5 favorites]

It is bad that he was not convicted of rape. I don't know how else to say that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:19 PM on May 9, 2023 [2 favorites]

But he was found guilty of having committed sexual assault. That's not a conviction, and that's not rape, but that is a big deal.

The court decisions are beginning to come in all across this smattering of awful people, and any one of them might be a small celebration, but the repeated hammering is going to cause real damage, both to those directly named in each and every decision, and rippling out from there.

This Trump decision is really really good. It's not what we're all waiting for, but it is really really good.
posted by hippybear at 8:25 PM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

Trump can't win with only the votes of people impervious to caring about any of this.
posted by straight at 8:29 PM on May 9, 2023 [7 favorites]

He can win with the votes of people whose votes aren't counted.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:08 PM on May 9, 2023 [6 favorites]

This won't change anything with his fans/voters because they knew it all along, just like the rest of us. The difference is that they approve of his deeds and the lies. They are not stupid, they are mean. The promise of Trumpism is that you can be mean to others and not be held accountable. What happens from now will be interesting, because there will be more and more serious cases in the next months (serious in the sense that they are criminal indictments, not that sexual assault isn't serious), and they will be a stark reminder that in the end, he can't get away with it, and trumpists can't get away with it. I hope.
With a corrupt Supreme Court anything can happen.

I've always believed that the main reason he ran for president in the first place was to escape criminal investigations for his tax evasion and money laundering schemes. Since then he has piled up even more crimes, possibly including treason. This is truly a test of American democracy, and it's a test where the result is not given. Plenty of high-ranking officials have shown they weren't up to the test during the last 9 years, from Comey and onward.
posted by mumimor at 11:32 PM on May 9, 2023 [14 favorites]

Question: So, if a convicted criminal does in fact appeal, do they first have to put the money they owe in escrow (in this case, $5,000,000) or something before the appeal is granted? I worry that otherwise, this vomit-filled-sausage-casing may try to just weasel his way out of paying.
posted by blueberry at 12:06 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

*Trump commits a crime*

MetaFilter: "Ah, who cares, he'll never be indicted. This fucking country is so fucked."

*Trump gets indicted for the crime*

MetaFilter: "Big deal, they'll never let it get to court. This fucking country is so fucked."

*Trump is taken to court for the crime*

MetaFilter: "Ehhhh, there's no way a jury would convict him. This fucking country is so fucked."

*Trump is convicted in court*

MetaFilter: "I mean, it's not like it'll matter! Trump is gonna win the election anyway! This fucking country is so fucked."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 2:40 AM on May 10, 2023 [35 favorites]

This is a third degree burn, and he will be visibly scarred for the remainder of his life — and after.

Even his kids will never be able to look at him in quite the same way.
posted by jamjam at 2:50 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

I took a look at the Fox News comments section, and there's a lot of "he didn't do it", "he never had a chance in front of a New York jury", "there was no evidence", "it would've been impossible in a store with attendants", and besides, "it happened decades ago". They're clearly not paying attention to the details of the case, and they feel that they don't have to in order to make up their minds.
posted by clawsoon at 4:13 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Rather disappointed with the headline from The Guardian on this

Me too. Coverage of his response should simply read "As was generally expected, three time loser and convicted sex pest TFG had much to say about the verdict, none of it fit for publication."
posted by flabdablet at 4:20 AM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

"he never had a chance in front of a New York jury"

In which, again, men outnumbered women two to one. Just wanted to stress that, because it is an unhappy fact.

Anyway, Fox viewers see the world as the us team and the them team, and the us team is always the righteous victim of the them team, and facts are an elitist construction not relevant to the real game, and drumming that in is what Fox is for.
posted by trig at 5:08 AM on May 10, 2023 [9 favorites]

Anyway, Fox viewers see the world as the us team and the them team, and the us team is always the righteous victim of the them team, and facts are an elitist construction not relevant to the real game, and drumming that in is what Fox is for.

"Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."

--Wilhoit's Law

Trump can yap all he wants (and hoo boy, has he ever been!), but this conviction is a narcissistic injury, besides everything else. Bravo for Ms. Carroll and the judge and jury.
posted by Gelatin at 5:26 AM on May 10, 2023 [9 favorites]

Anyway, Fox viewers see the world as the us team and the them team, and the us team is always the righteous victim of the them team, and facts are an elitist construction not relevant to the real game, and drumming that in is what Fox is for.

Exactly, and what Trump is doing is repeating the lines he wants the trumpists to parrot. It is nonsense and they know it, but by repeating it they pledge their allegiance to Trump and his cult.
posted by mumimor at 5:29 AM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

I found a certain (disquieting) peace of mind when I let myself accept the fact that many, if not most, people just don't care a lot about information. They're not that invested in the truth. They're honestly not all that invested in most things, except maybe as fodder to make small talk over. Fox News thrives because it understands that, and its propaganda has made this country immensely worse, but Fox didn't convince people not to care: Fox succeeds as an enterprise because people already didn't care.

That's not unique to the American right, either. They have the giant propaganda institution dedicated to unifying and exploiting them, but that same general apathy exists in every political demographic imaginable. You get the same general resistance to facts and logic in centrists, intersectional progressives, and dirtbag Marxists. I've had conversations with transgender gun nuts that were identical to the ones I used to have with my late Fox-loving grandfather, with various cultural signs and signifiers flipped around a little.

On top of that, though, comment sections are generally where you find the weirdest and loneliest people. That's doubly true of comment sections in places where performative political identity is encouraged. Twitter Blue has made that obvious: there are so many weird lonely dipshits all convincing each other that they're the sane and normal ones. Connective technology makes it easier for these people to find each other, but that's a problem that mass media enables in general. They existed before that, too, but you'd rarely come across them, because they existed in insular IRL communities that rarely crossed your path.

There are effective methods of political organizing that succeed despite this fluke of human nature. Every triumphant progressive movement, every tiny little victory in the name of human dignity, has occurred despite the fact that people are like this, have always been like this, will always be like this. And the most successful political organizers I know personally—some of whom have achieved astonishing things in my own city—will tell you up-front that, no, people don't change, you can't talk them into changing, and the only thing you can do is resist the temptation to get bogged down in that irritating injustice so you can focus on the things you can do, which it turns out are manifold.

I think the temptation for bookish curious informed sorts is to believe that, with a little push, the whole world can be made more bookish and curious and informed. On some level, the Democrats have bought into that in a big way: I'm not sure that the Daily Kos or Pod Save America mindset is any less politically delusional than the Fox News Commenter one, in the sense of affecting actual change. It's easy to feel powerless when your experience of politics takes place behind a screen.

All this is to say that, while people in general can get depressing when you compare them to some idealized notion of what human decency could hypothetically look like, those hypotheticals are rarely rooted in actual human circumstances. I've found that, if I don't dwell too much on how irritating I find political football fans or how upsetting I find their refusal to engage with blatant fact, it helps me stay focused on the things that matter. (And I'd argue that, in this case, a former president getting convicted of sexual assault in court is a genuinely big deal, even if that big-deal-ness won't extend to my personal notion of what justice ought to look like in this situation.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:32 AM on May 10, 2023 [21 favorites]

"he never had a chance in front of a New York jury"

I believe that people generally do better in front of home juries. It's interesting if Fox viewers assume that New Yorkers hate him.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:39 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

"he never had a chance in front of a New York jury"

I believe that people generally do better in front of home juries. It's interesting if Fox viewers assume that New Yorkers hate him.

You have to remember that when they say "New York", they don't mean a geographical and political entity in the northeastern part of the United States, or a city in the southeastern portion of that entity, where Donald Trump was born and considered his primary residence for 70 of his 76 years. When they say "New York", they mean godless communist homosexuals who hate Real America, which is where I live, and also I think they're mostly Jews.
posted by Etrigan at 5:46 AM on May 10, 2023 [25 favorites]

I was under the impression that New Yorkers do hate him. They've been having to put up with him and his bullshit a lot longer than the rest of the country has, after all.
posted by rifflesby at 5:48 AM on May 10, 2023 [10 favorites]

That Fucking Guy: when the term Some Asshole just won't do.
posted by BiggerJ at 5:51 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

So is he continuing to defame her in his responses to the verdict?
posted by clawsoon at 5:56 AM on May 10, 2023 [13 favorites]

I believe that people generally do better in front of home juries.

....So about a month ago, my roommate was squiring his new main squeeze to the opera; when they got out of the subway, they were standing next to one of Trump's properties, a hotel in the Lincoln Center area. As they passed it, they both spit on it.

Trump has poisoned the well for himself so much in this city that he may actually have a bit of a point. ....Don't get me wrong, my reaction to that is still "tough shit, bub."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

Oh, and since someone mentioned George Santos' indictment above as well: The charges are mostly for fraud and money laundering.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:39 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

TFG HINO - Human In Name Only

The last time I saw anything as big and nhilistically destructive as TFG, William Wndom was trying to ram his shuttle down its gaping maw.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:49 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

So is he continuing to defame her in his responses to the verdict?

I was wondering about the intricacies of that, since some of the initial statements (not all from Trump himself, though) directly continued to call her a liar. Is any further redress possible?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:52 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

Also, a security analyst admonished the jurors not to self-identify, for their own safety.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:55 AM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

Uh yeah. So did the Judge.
posted by tiny frying pan at 7:00 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

And George Santos has been arrested.

Not a bad one-two punch for a Tuesday-Wednesday..
posted by Windopaene at 7:15 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

....Hang on - ARRESTED arrested? I'd heard he was indicted, but I thought it was like what happened with TFG where he would just go to a courthouse and get fingerprinted and a mug shot and then hear the charges and then he'd be released again with a promise to appear for the court date.

Is that not what happened, or did he get there and they said "nope, you're staying with us" and threw him in a holding cell?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:20 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

I read he surrendered to authorities, so probably much like Trump did with his criminal charge. Because, of course, white collar crime is more permissible.
posted by Gelatin at 7:30 AM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Should we make a George Santos thread so as not to derail this one and also to give folks who want to talk about that but aren't in this thread a place to go?
posted by tzikeh at 7:34 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

New George Santos thread
posted by Gelatin at 7:43 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Also, a security analyst admonished the jurors not to self-identify, for their own safety.

I saw Trump's lawyer on TV yesterday, and he did seem very unpleasant about the jury. I would keep very quiet if I were them.
posted by mumimor at 7:43 AM on May 10, 2023

Also, a security analyst admonished the jurors not to self-identify, for their own safety.

Counterpoint: I am Spartacus!!!
posted by JohnFromGR at 7:58 AM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

This is a great thing, but there's no way that Just Security article is true: I can't imagine this changing a single vote. Unless he manages to lose the primary and runs third party, this is another multi-billion-dollar coin flip. I'm really not looking forward to 18 months of TFG, but I guess the only way out is through.
posted by netowl at 8:47 AM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Guys, please stop saying guilty. Guilt and innocence are findings in criminal cases. In a civil case, you're either liable or not liable. Trump was found liable for sexual assault and defamation. The jury found that Carroll proved under the relevant standard that Trump sexually assaulted her. You can even say that the jury found that Trump committed sexual assault.

But it's not a finding of guilt, and it's not a conviction, sorry. My biggest hope is that the dam is breaking and there is a lot more to come.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:17 AM on May 10, 2023 [17 favorites]

> "But it's not a finding of guilt, and it's not a conviction, sorry."

You could go with, say, "infamous sexual predator Donald Trump", though, for example.
posted by kyrademon at 9:21 AM on May 10, 2023 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: Comment sections are generally where you find the weirdest and loneliest people
posted by orange swan at 10:31 AM on May 10, 2023 [11 favorites]

Fair enough. Three time loser and proven sex pest TFG will have to do.
posted by flabdablet at 10:38 AM on May 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

I saw Trump's lawyer on TV yesterday, and he did seem very unpleasant about the jury. Dude looks like the platonic ideal of an angry sports talk radio caller.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:21 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump could face questions on sexual abuse verdict in CNN town hall
Could?! I mean CNN is hardly hard hitting journalism but it would be incredibly weird if this was not brought up tonight.
posted by piyushnz at 1:51 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Also, a security analyst admonished the jurors not to self-identify, for their own safety. Before that admonishment:

strikingly, at the end of the trial, U.S. District Judge Lewis A. Kaplan advised the jurors not to identify themselves—“not now and not for a long time”—out of concerns for their safety. National security analyst Juliette Kayyem reported the judge’s warning and noted that “Trump’s strongest legacy will always be violence as an extension of our democratic processes.” Legal analyst Joyce White Vance added, “It’s a remarkable thing when jurors have to be cautioned that revealing their identities could put them at risk...when the defendant was the former president of the United States.” - Heather Cox Richardson, Letters from an American, May 9, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:16 PM on May 10, 2023 [6 favorites]

I recently sent my mom a photo of Ivana’s grave - which is located on one of his golf courses - and added that TFG wants to be buried there as well. Her response was, “When?”
posted by bendy at 5:05 PM on May 10, 2023 [16 favorites]

I cannot believe CNN is putting guy on fucking television.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:18 PM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

Headline on CNN right now: "Trump’s CNN town hall is a sign of a broader and more traditional campaign strategy"

Picture on the story is about the best one they could possibly take of him.

Content of the story is mostly about the "organized, experienced team" he's got right now to "complement" his "unconventional campaign style".

Like The Card Cheat said, Always Be Normalizing.

Fuck CNN, indeed.
posted by clawsoon at 5:27 PM on May 10, 2023 [10 favorites]

It was an utter shitshow and basically a free add for election denialism. They’re going to have to bend themselves into pretzels normalizing it, but they absolutely will.
posted by Artw at 5:32 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

CNN went to so much trouble to make sure the crowd wasn't hostile to him that they basically gave him a laugh track for the dumbest shit he feels like saying.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:36 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

I cannot believe CNN is letting him continue to insist that not only do nine month viable abortions happen but "You can decide after the baby's born if you want to keep it or kill it."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:41 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

"My poll numbers went up" after the federal civil court conviction for sexual abuse, claims Trump. "I never met this woman."
posted by Artw at 5:41 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

He just said "fifteen million illegal immigrants will come across in the next six months."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:50 PM on May 10, 2023

I’m glad y’all are watching the town hall, because I can’t even remotely.
posted by box at 5:57 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Oh fuck no, just hearing about it is bad enough.
posted by Artw at 5:58 PM on May 10, 2023 [5 favorites]

This man could say "I am a perfect fucking king and should hold power forever and I can fly and shoot laser beams from my eyes" and the audience of this town hall would whoop and holler.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:08 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

"My poll numbers went up" after the federal civil court conviction for sexual abuse, claims Trump. "I never met this woman."

This is an obvious lie; the conviction was yesterday, so no new polls have come out that show this. That Trump lies isn't news, of course, but are we back to amplifying every stupid thing he says?
posted by mark k at 6:10 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

I cannot believe CNN is putting guy on fucking television.

There were those headlines the other day (and an FPP here as well, I think) about CNN being the most polarizing network, and I just rolled my eyes. Now I get it, and they have definitely polarized me. What buffoons.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:21 PM on May 10, 2023 [4 favorites]

are we back to amplifying every stupid thing he says?

CNN answering with a resounding yes here.
posted by Artw at 6:21 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

CNN answering with a resounding yes here.

So is Metafilter...
posted by saturday_morning at 6:25 PM on May 10, 2023 [3 favorites]

/waves at subject of the thread.
posted by Artw at 6:29 PM on May 10, 2023 [2 favorites]

Today I learned about ownership changes that happened last year at CNN:

Malone has said he wants CNN to be more like Fox News because, in his view, Fox News has “actual journalism”. Malone also wants the “news” portion of CNN to be “more centrist”.

Explains that, I guess.
posted by clawsoon at 6:56 PM on May 10, 2023 [15 favorites]

Flooding the zone with shit.

Sad! how prey we are still to this old old trick, even as it's been amplified and made obvious at a Moore's Law rate.

There may, occasionally, be a news nugget in the ever-expanding avalanche of shit the (six-? seven-? five-?) oligarch-owned media spew down upon us, but it's fucking tragic that by now most of us haven't considered the source and the content and stopped gathering credulously every day at the base of Mt. Shit-Manipulation, to call out the streaming turds while straining like bird watchers in search of the rare True-Facted Nugget. /puts aside binoculars to make scathing comment
posted by riverlife at 6:57 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump "repeatedly insisted Wednesday night that he never knew Carroll, accusing her of lying and mocking her account that he attacked her in the 1990s in a dressing room of the department store Bergdorf Goodman. The former president, who did not testify at the trial, used the CNN town hall setting to try to debunk Carroll’s story point by point — drawing laughter and applause from some in the audience of Republican and independent voters.[...]

"He also tried to discredit her account by noting that jurors rejected Carroll’s claim that she was raped — leading [CNN host Kaitlan] Collins to interject that they found him liable for sexual abuse.

'They said he didn’t rape her,' Trump retorted. 'And I didn’t do anything else either. You know what, because I have no idea who the hell she is,' he added to laughter from the audience. 'This is a fake story. A made-up story,' Trump said. 'This is a rigged deal.'” (WaPo) The verdict was yesterday.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:52 PM on May 10, 2023 [1 favorite]

Surely he just repeated the defamation - there's still one more Carroll defamation case in the works, this could create a third, I'd guess she'd ask for an injunction to some him repeating the slander, which would mean any further behaviour like this from TFG would be a criminal case
posted by mbo at 12:15 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]

The Guardian has quite a bit of coverage. This article seems to be the most exhaustive (for those of us who do not want to see Trump manipulate the masses or give CNN as much as ten seconds of viewing time)
posted by mumimor at 12:23 AM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

Ugh, I've read The Guardian article, and there is no way in hell I'm watching the CNN town hall video now. It was a Trump rally with better production values. For that matter, I'm done with CNN altogether. It was completely disgusting of them to give TFG a platform for spewing his lies.

I hope E. Jean Carroll sues TFG for defamation again, and if he defames her again after she wins that case, as many more times as needed until he gets it through his thick skull that he needs to shut the fuck up about her.

As satirized above by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted, there does tend to be a chorus of "nothing is going to happen" in MeFi threads about legal action against TFG. I think it's pretty clear that TFG is not going to just walk away from the legal trouble he faces. There are so many high-level cases in progress against him, chaired by stellar prosecutors who are clearly not fucking around. Meanwhile, TFG is not only guilty as sin with a clear trail of evidence, but can't hire even competent representation given his history of refusing to pay his bills and follow advice.

Will he ever spend any time at all in prison? I definitely wouldn't bet money on that, but it also seems unlikely he won't face house arrest at the very least, which he will then promptly proceed to violate, so... maybe. If nothing else, he's going to be in court for the rest of his shitty life.

As for his running for POTUS again, he lost last time and he certainly hasn't gained any support since. Biden has a good record to run on. I think the U.S. is going to avoid that particular iceberg, though the election campaign is going to be a shitshow.
posted by orange swan at 7:18 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

I skipped the town hall and now I am so glad. Else I become immolated in even more loathing for TFGi from Yuggoth. Him and his buttsucking devotees.
posted by y2karl at 7:43 AM on May 11, 2023

Surely he just repeated the defamation - there's still one more Carroll defamation case in the works, this could create a third, I'd guess she'd ask for an injunction to some him repeating the slander, which would mean any further behaviour like this from TFG would be a criminal case

It's also massively simpler to win cases on the same underlying facts.
posted by jaduncan at 8:12 AM on May 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

Might as well just keep a lawyer on retainer; they'll be queuing up for a simple case that might net $5m.
posted by jaduncan at 8:15 AM on May 11, 2023

I hope E. Jean Carroll sues TFG for defamation again

IANAL but, aside from the obvious likelihood that Trump has no intention of paying up no matter what, it's hard to see that Trump did not in fact defame her all over again on live TV. I hope she does sue him again.
posted by Gelatin at 8:38 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]

prediction: he will drag out at the appeals process as long as he can and then he won't pay Carroll when he loses and then he'll dare the courts to come after him for redress and then he'll argue that all this doesn't apply because he was (or, god save us, is) president and the thing will get back to the supreme court yet again and by the time there is any potential for actual enforcement of consequences the earth will have been consumed by the dying sun
posted by saturday_morning at 8:49 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]

Prediction: He will try, but encounter a legal system that has less and less patience for those high-profile shenanigans.

I don't know if Trump will ever actually pay up, but the "he never faces consequences for his actions" illusion is well and truly broken. His ranting shows what a narcissistic injury he suffered, and his lack of even minimal self control -- as in his deposition -- can only get him in more jeopardy.

So another prediction: Trump will spend the rest oh his life defending himself in courts of law.
posted by Gelatin at 9:08 AM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

CNN really was taken for a ride. They had no control over what was happening last night.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:10 AM on May 11, 2023

CNN really was taken for a ride. They had no control over what was happening last night.

Which says it all about how the media Really. Doesn't. Get. It. Even the highest level of journalism fell for his shit?? We're going to have a civil war in 20 years, all because they need ratings and clicks.
posted by Melismata at 9:13 AM on May 11, 2023 [5 favorites]

Ratings and money. CNN is the circus, Trump the main act. They're happy to be on this ride.
posted by Ahmad Khani at 9:14 AM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

As someone who doesn't understand the US legal system well: does Trump get to appeal regardless of arguments? The creepy lawyer mentioned the jury anonymity as a reason for appeal, but as someone who is well known for threatening opponents and adversaries and who commands a dangerous mob, I can't see how a judge would be impressed by that argument.
Another reason suggested/hinted at that there was no substantial evidence, but in the past 24 hours, Trump has basically admitted to being in the room with Carroll and even unfolded the description of the assault and defamed her further in the most gross manner.
Since an important part of the verdict was defamation, and the defense was mostly based on further shaming and defaming Ms. Carroll, isn't there something the lawyer (at least) should have learnt? I understand Trump is out of reach, but the lawyer should have understood that strategy is obsolete now.
posted by mumimor at 9:30 AM on May 11, 2023

> We're going to have a civil war in 20 years, all because they need ratings and clicks.

20 years seems optimistic.
posted by The Card Cheat at 9:33 AM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

CNN really was taken for a ride. They had no control over what was happening last night.

They absolutely did have control, and they were willing participants on that ride.
posted by Etrigan at 9:57 AM on May 11, 2023 [19 favorites]

I check in on CNN/MSNBC/Fox every now and again to see what they're up to, and it's been all about Trump since he announced his first campaign. CNN/MSNBC anchors might sound like naysayers or whatever, but they breathlessly report on every single shit the guy takes, then they reexamine that shit all day long with tweezers and a magnifying glass, repeating his every word, very concerned for the fate of the country, yes yes.

Taken for a ride? They handed Donald J Trump a platform in 2023, knowing exactly who he is. They spend 20-some hours per day "warning" us about how "treacherous" he is! They so clearly do not find him or his politics vile; it's still all about creating and maintaining division to make mo money. Easy test: Is your "news" source singularly focused on US politics? Then it ain't news; that's propaganda.
posted by heyho at 10:04 AM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

Even Trump interrupts his constant complaints that the media is out to get him (because they report on his criminal and scumbag behavior) to chortle that they love the ratings of covering him. He makes it very clear that they are complicit -- which is, of course, what authoritarians do.
posted by Gelatin at 10:09 AM on May 11, 2023 [10 favorites]

CNN really was taken for a ride. They had no control over what was happening last night.

Did they not organize the whole fucking thing ? How is that not having control over what happens ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:59 AM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

Did they not organize the whole fucking thing ? How is that not having control over what happens ?

Down to choosing a Trump-friendly audience.

That Trump put on The Trump Show in front of his fans is awful but isn't news. Now, seeing how we would have responded to decent people questioning him might have been.
posted by Gelatin at 11:02 AM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

They had no control over what was happening last night.

They had everything from camera angles, thru mic mutes to just switching to other content or going to a test pattern.
posted by Mitheral at 11:02 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]

Parker Molloy: The head of CNN thinks it's journalism's job to 'make news.' That's a problem.
posted by box at 11:05 AM on May 11, 2023 [16 favorites]

Boston Globe: ‘One of the worst hours I’ve seen’: CNN faces blowback for airing town hall with Trump
posted by Melismata at 11:38 AM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]

Only remotely related to the tale of this horror show, I am going to say something which I will likely repeat over and over here:

To my mind there is no one person currently more deserving of the Presidential Medal of Freedom right now than Jordan Klepper.

If there is a God, Jordan Klepper is to my mind doing His&Her work. Seriously.

And hilariously, too.

I mentioned more than once here that in my most morbid and fearful prognostications of what the future would bring when I was young, that what has actually come to pass has so far exceeded them as to leave me in abject despair. Things have so exceeded my imagination.

If it were not for Jordan Klepper, it would be total. I am so grateful that he is on the job.

You may now return to your regular program.

But just sayin'.
posted by y2karl at 12:29 PM on May 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

Here's my local newspaper in New Zealand's editorial cartoon this morning
posted by mbo at 1:53 PM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

In a just world that would be tattooed in fluorescent ink on his forehead.
posted by y2karl at 2:20 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

> 'One of the worst hours I’ve seen'

Oh, you ain't seen nothin' yet. The media is going to prop this guy up to the full extent of their capabilities. They'll carry him across the finish line if they can and then make sad faces about the fact that he won as he burns the world down.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:29 PM on May 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

CNN moving on from all that to start building up immigration train scares as they will be doing on and off for the next 17 months.
posted by Artw at 3:38 PM on May 11, 2023 [7 favorites]

It's like Bernard Shaw under a desk in Baghdad never happened. Fox News, hold our beer!
posted by riverlife at 3:57 PM on May 11, 2023

I think my question upthread may have been answered:

E. Jean Carroll May Sue Trump a Third Time After ‘Vile’ Comments on CNN

I don't have New York Times access so I can't read much past the headline, but the headline seems like it sums things up pretty well.
posted by clawsoon at 4:16 PM on May 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

(gift link)
posted by box at 4:22 PM on May 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

And he'll speak out again, and she'll sue him again, and so on and so on and so on....

The thing is, he's already been held liable, so all those other suits are less in his favor.

I do have a question -- if Trump files an appeal, does the appellate court have to take the case, or can they just say "yeah, no. sorry." and then that's the end of it?
posted by hippybear at 4:23 PM on May 11, 2023

The impression I get it that if you’re wealthy or powerful enough you get as many appeals as you need.
posted by The Card Cheat at 4:33 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

The appeals court can absolutely say no, from my understanding. Does that happen? I dunno.

(Spellchecker wanted, "does that baboon?" Does that indeed)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:39 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Easy test: Is your "news" source singularly focused on US politics? Then it ain't news; that's propaganda.

The media is a giant magnifying glass
posted by flabdablet at 9:10 PM on May 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

Anderson Cooper Addresses ‘Disturbing’ Trump Town Hall on CNN
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:26 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

“If we all only listen to those we agree with, it may actually do the opposite. If lies are allowed to go unchecked, as imperfect as our ability to check them is on a stage in real-time, those lies continue and those lies spread,” Cooper continued.

This posits that giving Trump free air time to spread lies had some kind of beneficial effect in that, I don’t know, now we know what the lies are and can respond better? Except we already knew what they were so really all it was an opportunity to spread lies paid for by CNN.
posted by Artw at 5:34 AM on May 12, 2023 [8 favorites]

Yeah, that was something, and Anderson, whom I still liked to some degree, is no longer a voice I want to hear. Telling me that if I didn't want to watch that, I was happy in my silo? Fuck you, buddy. Nuh uh. CNN is straight poison.
posted by heyho at 5:42 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]

So Anderson is wrong because Trump is a known quantity. It's not like we don't know what he's going to say. But CNN committed another crime, essentially a reverse Howard Dean. The audience was not allowed to boo, only to applaud, so that even when many disapproved of what he was saying, we only heard his supporters respond.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:13 AM on May 12, 2023 [9 favorites]

“If we all only listen to those we agree with, it may actually do the opposite. If lies are allowed to go unchecked, as imperfect as our ability to check them is on a stage in real-time, those lies continue and those lies spread,” Cooper continued.

I find it curious that Anderson is only expecting us to follow this advice, and is not calling on Trump's supporters to do the same as well.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:37 AM on May 12, 2023 [11 favorites]

I find it curious that Anderson is only expecting us to follow this advice, and is not calling on Trump's supporters to do the same as well.

Only Democrats have agency.
posted by Etrigan at 6:46 AM on May 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

if Trump files an appeal, does the appellate court have to take the case, or can they just say "yeah, no. sorry." and then that's the end of it?

Not up on NY state appellate rules, but typically you get one appeal "as of right" from a final judgment. So as long as your attorneys don't mess up on the timeline, the first-level appellate court has to take the appeal, in the sense of receiving briefs and eventually issuing a ruling. (This differs from a court of discretionary appeal like SCOTUS, which is usually free to just not take the appeal at all.)

Just because the appellate court has to take the appeal doesn't mean they have to take it especially seriously, however. Lots of appeals get rejected with short memorandum orders.
posted by Not A Thing at 6:49 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

I find it curious that Anderson is only expecting us to follow this advice, and is not calling on Trump's supporters to do the same as well.

Only Democrats have agency.

Indeed, and Anderson and the rest of the so-called "liberal media" do themselves no credit by internalizing and perpetuating this double standard. It sounds pious and unbiased, but it actually gives aid and comfort to the worst Republican behavior.
posted by Gelatin at 7:10 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

If lies are allowed to go unchecked, as imperfect as our ability to check them is on a stage in real-time, those lies continue and those lies spread

You know what else spreads lies?

BROADCASTING THEM ON FUCKING NETWORK TV.
posted by flabdablet at 7:11 AM on May 12, 2023 [5 favorites]

After last night, none of us can say, ‘I didn’t know what’s out there. I didn’t know what’s coming.’”

None of us could say that before last night either.

We all know that kiddie porn is out there too. Perhaps CNN should consider broadcasting an hour of that any time the ratings start to slip a bit.
posted by flabdablet at 7:14 AM on May 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

The fact that the so-called :liberal media" tacitly excuses Republican bad behavior is especially shameful in light of their otherwise-habitual focus on bogus "both sides" framing, by the way.
posted by Gelatin at 7:21 AM on May 12, 2023

It's almost as if their owners had a vested interest in perpetuating regulatory gridlock.
posted by flabdablet at 7:29 AM on May 12, 2023 [7 favorites]

Katie Couric sits with Neal Katyal and struggles to understand the CNN town hall. [20m]
posted by hippybear at 8:15 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

The amount of even the tiny bit of good vibes that CNN might have had have been destroyed so utterly, so quickly, it might as well have been an inside assassin job.
posted by hippybear at 9:03 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

I cannot find a legit news source on this yet, just this tweet from a Lib'ral Outrage account, but supposedly a Manhattan Supreme Court Judge has ordered Donald Trump to sit for a lecture on how to comply with the order restricting him from posting evidence from his criminal case on social media.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:48 AM on May 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

I couldn't figure out why Kaitlan Collins would agree to host that debacle, because there was no way she could come out successful, from a journalism point of view. It seems the answer is, "kiss up to the big boss and get a big reward" (i.e. it sounds like she's getting her own prime time show). Now, it suddenly makes all kinds of sense.
posted by sardonyx at 10:19 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

supposedly a Manhattan Supreme Court Judge

Obligatory reminder to people in other places that in the state of NY, the Supreme Court is not the highest court. It's the lowest court (of record), basically equivalent to county court in most states. If you feel like your trial in the Supreme Court was unfair, you appeal from the Supreme Court to a court that's higher than the Supreme Court (the Appellate Division of the Supreme Court). NY's highest court is the Court of Appeals.

I'm pretty sure this is part of a larger program of trolling undergrads.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:42 AM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

Seems to be essentially real.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:58 AM on May 12, 2023

I'm not sure that a judge is the best person to be telling Trump this kind of stuff.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:47 PM on May 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

The first 2/3 of this week's On The Media main show get into the whole Carroll case in a depth and detail that I hadn't heard before... and with an angle that actually gives me hope for what it all might mean.
posted by hippybear at 5:31 PM on May 14, 2023 [2 favorites]

Welp.

CNN Loses to Newsmax in Primetime Ratings Two Days After Trump Town Hall

Have to say the media landscape revealed there is fucking terrifying.
posted by Artw at 5:16 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]

This maybe deserves it's own thread but it's only accusations in a lawsuit at the moment:

A lawsuit filed by a former employee of Rudy Giuliani accused him of offering to sell pardons by his former boss Donald Trump. The lawsuit also accuses Giuliani of sexual assault, harassment and wage theft.

@KeithOlbermann:

sexual abuse suit against Rudy Giuliani includes bombshell allegation

Giuliani told alleged victim he was "SELLING PARDONS" for $2,000,000 each "which he and Trump would split" AND SHE HAS RECORDINGS AND EMAILS

Complete text of the filing.
posted by Mitheral at 5:29 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

Complete text of the filing.

The filing also features a still from that Borat movie where Giuliani was filmed with his hands down his pants as a visual illustration in a section describing her accusations of a forced sexual encounter.

I hope she is successful in taking him to the cleaners.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:50 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

CNN Loses to Newsmax in Primetime Ratings Two Days After Trump Town Hall

Odd that the article doesn't mention what happened to the ratings of MSNBC, the number two cable news network, over those couple of days. Did it pick up any viewers from CNN's decision to platform that fucking guy?
posted by clawsoon at 6:55 PM on May 15, 2023

"Notable: Rudy Giuliani faces 'Battery' civil claim for sexual abuse under Adult Survivors Act for rape, sexual abuse, sexual misconduct, forcible touching. This is the same action E. Jean Carroll brought against Donald Trump." [Journalist Frank G. Runyeon Twitter thread]
From the filing:
Feb. 7, 2019: "Giuliani told Ms. Dunphy, in her capacity as his employee, about a plan that had been prepared for if Trump lost the 2020 election. Specifically, Giuliani told Ms. Dunphy that Trump’s team would claim that there was 'voter fraud' and that Trump had actually won the election. This plan was discussed at several business meetings with Giuliani and Lev Parnas."
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:45 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]

The thing that strikes me, over and over again, is not whether or not the charges against TFG and Giuliani are true (as important as that is), but that these charges surprise no one. Lies, corruption, and sexual abuse are entirely in character for these bums.
posted by SPrintF at 8:29 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Really the question is not “do they do these things”, it’s “should these things be considered crimes”, and for the MAGA crowd the answer is “not for people we like and in fact bringing it up is the actual crime”.

See also vigilantism and paramilitary violence.

It is a grim, grim world that they want.
posted by Artw at 9:30 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Artw: the good news is that there is small but real movement away from what they want, fueled in part by the general public having gotten sick of TFG and the MAGA crowd in the world; and encouraged by rulings like E. Jean Carroll's. Odds are that if the jury in E. Jean Carroll's case had gone the other way, the suit against Giuliani would never have been filed in the first place because "what's the fucking point...." But they ruled in her favor, so Giuliani's accuser thought "well, hell, I got something to say too."

It won't be overnight and there will be steps back. But I'm seeing this as a very real (albeit early) sign of change.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:45 AM on May 16, 2023 [8 favorites]

Really the question is not “do they do these things”, it’s “should these things be considered crimes”, and for the MAGA crowd the answer is “not for people we like and in fact bringing it up is the actual crime”.

Exactly. Trump's "grab them by the pussy" bragging was to establish himself as in the group that ought to get away with it. He's a celebrity; he can do what he wants.

Obviously, MAGAs want a world in which there is one standard for them and another for The Other. But I doubt many loyal Americans are so eager to embrace that idea. Democratic leaders should make clear, in so many words, what the standards are. Whilhoit's Law should be quoted far and wide, because whether we have that is exactly what the stakes are.

Unfortunately, the so-called "liberal media" will have a tough time bothesidesing such a stark description of the differences in values, so it'll take real work to give that idea traction. But if they can be guided to picking up that frame, it'd inevitably cast everything Republicans do in that light.
posted by Gelatin at 10:22 AM on May 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

E. Jean Carroll has filed for additional damages in the wake of that CNN "Town Hall".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:06 AM on May 23, 2023 [11 favorites]

Trump's lawyer
posted by Mitheral at 2:38 PM on May 23, 2023