Greenlandic MP refuses to speak Danish in parliament debate
May 15, 2023 7:37 AM Subscribe
Time to hire some simultaneous translators.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:52 AM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 8:52 AM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
To be fair, Greenlandic is far more intelligible than Danish.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:53 AM on May 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:53 AM on May 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I'm not sure what the end goal Greenlanders have in mind is
TFA suggests that the goal is full independence: "... the next step in the right direction would be state formation" and "Last week, Greenland’s government presented its first draft constitution to its parliament."
posted by achrise at 9:23 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
TFA suggests that the goal is full independence: "... the next step in the right direction would be state formation" and "Last week, Greenland’s government presented its first draft constitution to its parliament."
posted by achrise at 9:23 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
As I understand it, the majority (over 2/3's of people) in Greenland want to be independent at some point in the near future, and they have the right to declare independence under Greenland’s Self-Government Act.
I'm no global strategic planner, but seems like Greenland will at some point very likely become fully independent, is in a very strategic location / potential access to lots of different resources, and for the good of Denmark/Europe's future relationship with Greenland you'd think the Danish MP's could simply say "Hey - that was amazing, and I love your language, but unfortunately I don't speak it. So let's get a translator in so we can all communicate better!". There are plenty of other parliaments around Europe and the world where more than one language is used. And I'm sure there are plenty of difficult conversations about how independence process will work - and it seems petty to get hung up on a language barrier at this point.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:27 AM on May 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
I'm no global strategic planner, but seems like Greenland will at some point very likely become fully independent, is in a very strategic location / potential access to lots of different resources, and for the good of Denmark/Europe's future relationship with Greenland you'd think the Danish MP's could simply say "Hey - that was amazing, and I love your language, but unfortunately I don't speak it. So let's get a translator in so we can all communicate better!". There are plenty of other parliaments around Europe and the world where more than one language is used. And I'm sure there are plenty of difficult conversations about how independence process will work - and it seems petty to get hung up on a language barrier at this point.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:27 AM on May 15, 2023 [15 favorites]
As I understand it, the majority (over 2/3's of people) in Greenland want to be independent at some point in the near future, and they have the right to declare independence under Greenland’s Self-Government Act.
Interesting, and a pretty high percentage. Best of luck to them either way.
(Also looking forward to seeing how the British and Spanish governments react if Greenland votes for independence.)
posted by plonkee at 9:40 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interesting, and a pretty high percentage. Best of luck to them either way.
(Also looking forward to seeing how the British and Spanish governments react if Greenland votes for independence.)
posted by plonkee at 9:40 AM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Greenland has a great flag, that has an interesting geometric contrast with the Danish flag.
posted by Vegiemon at 9:51 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Vegiemon at 9:51 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are plenty of other parliaments around Europe ...where more than one language is used.
Indeed, Denmark is a member of one of them.
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Indeed, Denmark is a member of one of them.
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
The MP is Aki-Matilda Tilia Ditte Høegh-Dam, and she is a member of Greenlands Siumut political party. The Siumut have largely dominated Greenland politics since the establishment of home rule right up until the last election. It was a snap election after a vote on no confidence over the Kvanefjeld project, a massive rare earth mining project.
The Inuit Ataqatigiit party won the election and they are certainly pushing for greater independence along with their economic policies.
posted by zenon at 11:16 AM on May 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Inuit Ataqatigiit party won the election and they are certainly pushing for greater independence along with their economic policies.
posted by zenon at 11:16 AM on May 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yes, I don't get why they didn't instantly decide to have translators.
Denmark has done so many terrible things to Greenlanders, there shouldn't be any delay in showing our respect and acknowledging our guilt.
The main reason Greenland isn't already independent is that there is no way they can defend themselves, and that is becoming more of an issue every day. They are something like 57.000 inhabitants on the world's largest island (at more than 2.000.000 km2, and more than half of the population live in Nuuk, the capital.
There are also problems with finding enough doctors, nurses and academics in general to run the country.
A large part of Greenlands budget is paid by Denmark, but that is just fair (and btw most people agree, I've never heard anyone say we shouldn't support Greenland or Greenland's independence).
posted by mumimor at 11:22 AM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Denmark has done so many terrible things to Greenlanders, there shouldn't be any delay in showing our respect and acknowledging our guilt.
The main reason Greenland isn't already independent is that there is no way they can defend themselves, and that is becoming more of an issue every day. They are something like 57.000 inhabitants on the world's largest island (at more than 2.000.000 km2, and more than half of the population live in Nuuk, the capital.
There are also problems with finding enough doctors, nurses and academics in general to run the country.
A large part of Greenlands budget is paid by Denmark, but that is just fair (and btw most people agree, I've never heard anyone say we shouldn't support Greenland or Greenland's independence).
posted by mumimor at 11:22 AM on May 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
“This is a difficult dialogue. I know that the speaker was born in Denmark and speaks fluent Danish,” said the MP Karsten Hønge during the debate.
This is wilfully obtuse. Simultaneous real-time translation is a long-solved problem in legislatures where two official languages are used, or in the U.N. General Assembly where it's way more than two languages.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:03 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is wilfully obtuse. Simultaneous real-time translation is a long-solved problem in legislatures where two official languages are used, or in the U.N. General Assembly where it's way more than two languages.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:03 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
The main reason Greenland isn't already independent is that there is no way they can defend themselves, and that is becoming more of an issue every day.
I'm not sure how good a model it is, but the US' compact with several Pacific Island states might be one. The US takes responsibility for their defense.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:05 PM on May 15, 2023
I'm not sure how good a model it is, but the US' compact with several Pacific Island states might be one. The US takes responsibility for their defense.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:05 PM on May 15, 2023
"You speak your language because it is the only one you know. I speak your language because it is the only one YOU know. We are not the same."
posted by AlSweigart at 12:10 PM on May 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 12:10 PM on May 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
The Kingdon of Denmark had its own version of residential schools and tried to wipe out Greenlandic culture and language entirely. In a more just world, Kalaallisut would be a mandatory subject in Danish primary schools. Having to "tolerate" a seven-minute speech is nothing at all.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:26 PM on May 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 12:26 PM on May 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
The US takes responsibility for their defense.
There would be more commonality if Canada were to get involved - we have a similarly sized population in Nunavut, and both groups have shared history, language and face similar challenges in maintaining life in the Arctic.
posted by rozcakj at 12:35 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
There would be more commonality if Canada were to get involved - we have a similarly sized population in Nunavut, and both groups have shared history, language and face similar challenges in maintaining life in the Arctic.
posted by rozcakj at 12:35 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
The main reason Greenland isn't already independent is that there is no way they can defend themselves.
An independent Greenland would be really incredibly welcome in NATO for exactly the strategic reasons you point out. The 2% target also scales down to their budget, and that's even assuming they don't just rent out some base land to (realistically) the USN. It might quite easily be a meaningful amount revenue for public services and indeed jobs for a population of less than 60,000 people.
posted by jaduncan at 12:39 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
An independent Greenland would be really incredibly welcome in NATO for exactly the strategic reasons you point out. The 2% target also scales down to their budget, and that's even assuming they don't just rent out some base land to (realistically) the USN. It might quite easily be a meaningful amount revenue for public services and indeed jobs for a population of less than 60,000 people.
posted by jaduncan at 12:39 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
(AKA Keflavik Mk. 2)
posted by jaduncan at 12:42 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jaduncan at 12:42 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given the US operates a strategic base in Greenland (Pituffik - formally known as Thule but renamed to the traditional Greenlandic name for the former settlement where the base was built), as well as certain Danish military installations that are used for joint operations and monitoring with NATO I believe, I would imagine there would be enough common interest between the US, Canada, Denmark / the EU to provide mutual defense to Greenland. Now whether the asks in return are reasonable, and the people of Greenland actually want that, I don't know, but again seems like strategically good spot for Greenland to be in...(existing foreign military installations they can bargain over, large geography, important artic circle location etc.)
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:43 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:43 PM on May 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Greenland ended its 50-year ambition to become an oil producing nation in 2021, the last exploration licences expire in 2028.
That lack of exploitable resources has likely changed their relationship with Denmark, and will also make them less tempting to any invading nation, I doubt anyone is going to attack them just for the fish quotas.
posted by Lanark at 12:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
That lack of exploitable resources has likely changed their relationship with Denmark, and will also make them less tempting to any invading nation, I doubt anyone is going to attack them just for the fish quotas.
posted by Lanark at 12:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also apparently Pituffik means "the place the dogs are tied", which could be quite hilarious in negotiations if they squeeze a good deal with the US over future use of the base / support for their independence etc.
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by inflatablekiwi at 12:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aotearoa has live translation in Parliament for everyone who wants to use our official languages: English, Te Reo, and New Zealand Sign Language.
This is Parliament. It is our house and everyone has a right to be heard there.
Denmark has only one official language - Danish. Faraoese and Kalaallisut are not official. For people not to be able to speak in their own language at the Danish Parliament is insulting to those people. It says that they are not as important as native Danish speakers.
I can see why Greenlanders want independence.
(As for defence, Niue is an independent country. That's 2,000 people. They are a self-governing state in free association with New Zealand. NZ is responsible for their defence, because Niue asked for that. Same with Palau - a independent nation of 18,000 people who have asked the US to take responibility for their defence. So there are already working solutions to this issue.)
posted by happyinmotion at 12:55 PM on May 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is Parliament. It is our house and everyone has a right to be heard there.
Denmark has only one official language - Danish. Faraoese and Kalaallisut are not official. For people not to be able to speak in their own language at the Danish Parliament is insulting to those people. It says that they are not as important as native Danish speakers.
I can see why Greenlanders want independence.
(As for defence, Niue is an independent country. That's 2,000 people. They are a self-governing state in free association with New Zealand. NZ is responsible for their defence, because Niue asked for that. Same with Palau - a independent nation of 18,000 people who have asked the US to take responibility for their defence. So there are already working solutions to this issue.)
posted by happyinmotion at 12:55 PM on May 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
Denmark has only one official language - Danish. Faraoese and Kalaallisut are not official. For people not to be able to speak in their own language at the Danish Parliament is insulting to those people. It says that they are not as important as native Danish speakers.
That's it in a nutshell.
It's not like it happened overnight in Canada, but the only barrier to implementing it were a set of lousy rules, and the attitudes of people trying to uphold them. The challenges didn't lie in the logistics themselves.
Robert Falcon-Ouellette is the former MP who pushed get the rules of parliamentary procedure changed to allow for the translation of Indigenous languages in parliamentary proceedings.
Honouring Indigenous Languages Within Parliament:
In 2017, the existing standing orders and policies of the House of Commons prevented his [Ouellette's] address in Cree from being translated to his fellow MPs. Despite receiving advice to use one of Canada’s two official languages, the author decided to continue with his speech as planned. Subsequently, he raised a prima facie case that his rights as a parliamentarian had been violated and worked with the Regulations Committee (PROC) to change the standing orders.
So now, this is how translation (other than French/English) is managed, and it's worth noting that:
The Translation Bureau can meet requests for approximately 50 Indigenous languages or dialects under current contracts. The Indigenous languages most requested from the Translation Bureau are Plains Cree, Mohawk, Ojibway, Desuline, Nunavik and Inuktitut. The services to Parliament are provided by freelance interpreters, as needed.
To quote Ouellette:
After 153 years, the Canadian House of Commons now allows for the translation of the original languages
of Canada. The ability to speak a language and be understood is central to the ideals of democracy. If
we speak and no one is able to understand us then we are effectively silenced and have no influence over
the manner in which others impact us or the ability to influence others. There is no relationship.
Nemacomacuntik Tansai Nemeyatanye atawapamtikok.
These words have power. These words tell a story and make a statement of values. It is a statement of
worldview. A worldview is the principles of a people; it allows us to make sense of the world around us. We create
a community of traditions and customs from myths, legends, stories, family, community and examples set
by communal leaders. A worldview allows a people who self-identify to create a system of logic; it allows
objects to fit within a paradigm, generates behaviour and helps a people to interpret their experiences.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:07 PM on May 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
That's it in a nutshell.
It's not like it happened overnight in Canada, but the only barrier to implementing it were a set of lousy rules, and the attitudes of people trying to uphold them. The challenges didn't lie in the logistics themselves.
Robert Falcon-Ouellette is the former MP who pushed get the rules of parliamentary procedure changed to allow for the translation of Indigenous languages in parliamentary proceedings.
Honouring Indigenous Languages Within Parliament:
In 2017, the existing standing orders and policies of the House of Commons prevented his [Ouellette's] address in Cree from being translated to his fellow MPs. Despite receiving advice to use one of Canada’s two official languages, the author decided to continue with his speech as planned. Subsequently, he raised a prima facie case that his rights as a parliamentarian had been violated and worked with the Regulations Committee (PROC) to change the standing orders.
So now, this is how translation (other than French/English) is managed, and it's worth noting that:
The Translation Bureau can meet requests for approximately 50 Indigenous languages or dialects under current contracts. The Indigenous languages most requested from the Translation Bureau are Plains Cree, Mohawk, Ojibway, Desuline, Nunavik and Inuktitut. The services to Parliament are provided by freelance interpreters, as needed.
To quote Ouellette:
After 153 years, the Canadian House of Commons now allows for the translation of the original languages
of Canada. The ability to speak a language and be understood is central to the ideals of democracy. If
we speak and no one is able to understand us then we are effectively silenced and have no influence over
the manner in which others impact us or the ability to influence others. There is no relationship.
Nemacomacuntik Tansai Nemeyatanye atawapamtikok.
These words have power. These words tell a story and make a statement of values. It is a statement of
worldview. A worldview is the principles of a people; it allows us to make sense of the world around us. We create
a community of traditions and customs from myths, legends, stories, family, community and examples set
by communal leaders. A worldview allows a people who self-identify to create a system of logic; it allows
objects to fit within a paradigm, generates behaviour and helps a people to interpret their experiences.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:07 PM on May 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
As far as I can see, Høgh-Dam never asked for the parliament to introduce translation, she just gave her speech as a stunt. Arguably, it will now be more difficult to make the change, though it is absolutely the right thing, because that's the way politics work in Denmark. I suppose that is what Karsten Hønge was thinking.
Denmark does not have an official language. If there was a language law, the minority languages would certainly be included in it, but there isn't.
Back in the days before the internet, the news were read in Greenlandic in the state radio every day, so Greenlanders in Denmark could hear them. (There were also news in Urdu, Arabic, Turkish, English and German). If you go to any public office or institution, you will be able to find information in all the most common minority languages. This just to say that the official language policies, where they can be identified, are meant to treat minorities equally.
There was an experiment similar to the residential schools in Canada, where 22 children were sent to Denmark, but the purpose of the project was to educate a bilingual Greenlandic elite, so they could return to manage the country when they grew up. It's not an excuse for anything, families were traumatized. The whole thing was cruel and ignorant. But the goal was not at all to eradicate Greenlandic culture and language, contrariwise.
posted by mumimor at 2:34 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Denmark does not have an official language. If there was a language law, the minority languages would certainly be included in it, but there isn't.
Back in the days before the internet, the news were read in Greenlandic in the state radio every day, so Greenlanders in Denmark could hear them. (There were also news in Urdu, Arabic, Turkish, English and German). If you go to any public office or institution, you will be able to find information in all the most common minority languages. This just to say that the official language policies, where they can be identified, are meant to treat minorities equally.
There was an experiment similar to the residential schools in Canada, where 22 children were sent to Denmark, but the purpose of the project was to educate a bilingual Greenlandic elite, so they could return to manage the country when they grew up. It's not an excuse for anything, families were traumatized. The whole thing was cruel and ignorant. But the goal was not at all to eradicate Greenlandic culture and language, contrariwise.
posted by mumimor at 2:34 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I just finished (and enjoyed) Hopeland by Ian McDonald which shows a future independent Greenland blossoming under climate change .... (lightly magical realist)
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on May 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
To be fair, Greenlandic is far more intelligible than Danish.
Can we fucking not? The regional dialect being mocked there (by a bunch of Norwegians) is already a heavily marginalised one in Denmark, and one that all but has been eradicated by intentional and indirect language-norm policies. You'd likely be asked for a translation if you spoke it in parliament too, despite the fact that it is a dialect of Danish. We get subtitled on TV. It is assumed that we are fucking idiots, based purely on our dialect. And Jysk is absolutely irrelevant here anyway.
posted by Dysk at 3:46 PM on May 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Can we fucking not? The regional dialect being mocked there (by a bunch of Norwegians) is already a heavily marginalised one in Denmark, and one that all but has been eradicated by intentional and indirect language-norm policies. You'd likely be asked for a translation if you spoke it in parliament too, despite the fact that it is a dialect of Danish. We get subtitled on TV. It is assumed that we are fucking idiots, based purely on our dialect. And Jysk is absolutely irrelevant here anyway.
posted by Dysk at 3:46 PM on May 15, 2023 [9 favorites]
Obviously now that it has been obviously identified as a lack, live translation should of course be set up in response. I sincerely hope that happens, but I wouldn't be surprised to see some parties make it a fight to do so. Frankly embarrassing how people reacted in Christiansborg. It was a stunt, yes, but they didn't have to hang themselves with the rope they were handed. They did that enthusiastically themselves.
posted by Dysk at 3:52 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 3:52 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Denmark does not have an official language.
Wikipedia says: "The Kingdom of Denmark has only one official language, Danish." So does Britannica. So does the European Federation of National Institutions for Language.
Are they all wrong?
posted by happyinmotion at 3:55 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Wikipedia says: "The Kingdom of Denmark has only one official language, Danish." So does Britannica. So does the European Federation of National Institutions for Language.
Are they all wrong?
posted by happyinmotion at 3:55 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Those are the languages nominated as official for the purposes of e.g. the EU. There is no domestic language law defining an official language in any other setting or capacity. Danish is a de facto standard, not a formally legally defined one. So to a certain, nit-picky extent, yes they are all wrong.
posted by Dysk at 4:00 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 4:00 PM on May 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Note that the CIA World Factbook doesn't agree with Britannica and the European Federation. I cannot find any English-language sources for Denmark not having any officially designated languages, but I can find a couple in Danish.)
posted by Dysk at 4:07 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 4:07 PM on May 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I doubt anyone is going to attack them just for the fish quotas.
It's because it's a major staging point for aviation, rocketry/missile, signals and martitime operations in the north Atlantic. It's a floating aircraft carrier with deep enough bays that you can also use it as a port.
It is also, relatedly to the fish quotas, possessor of quite a lot of sea and seabed where militaries can be allowed or denied access. It is unquestionably an extremely tempting prize for any power that wishes to project force in local areas, and there will be some potential for a high price in negotiations. A independent Greenland that wanted to grant Russia a nuclear sub/general navy base would cause various NATO planners and intelligence desks to require full on smelling salts.
posted by jaduncan at 4:44 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's because it's a major staging point for aviation, rocketry/missile, signals and martitime operations in the north Atlantic. It's a floating aircraft carrier with deep enough bays that you can also use it as a port.
It is also, relatedly to the fish quotas, possessor of quite a lot of sea and seabed where militaries can be allowed or denied access. It is unquestionably an extremely tempting prize for any power that wishes to project force in local areas, and there will be some potential for a high price in negotiations. A independent Greenland that wanted to grant Russia a nuclear sub/general navy base would cause various NATO planners and intelligence desks to require full on smelling salts.
posted by jaduncan at 4:44 PM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just a thought about language laws and stuff. When the Danish constitution was written in 1849, Denmark was in the middle of a conflict about the states that are now Schleswig-Holstein in Northern Germany, where the majority spoke German. So this was a sticky issue. There was a strong anti-German sentiment, but the German speakers were supposed to remain within the nation. So they just sort of left language out of the constitution. But the writers of the constitution were very conscious of the fact that Denmark was a multicultural and multilingual kingdom. After 1864, when Denmark lost Schleswig-Holstein completely, things became very different.
It was the same with religion. The wrote some stuff about state religion and religious freedom in the constitution, and then added: religious practice will be regulated by law. But it never happened.
So from the outside, it looks like Denmark has only one official language and a state religion, but in reality there are deliberate huge gaps in the system.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was the same with religion. The wrote some stuff about state religion and religious freedom in the constitution, and then added: religious practice will be regulated by law. But it never happened.
So from the outside, it looks like Denmark has only one official language and a state religion, but in reality there are deliberate huge gaps in the system.
posted by mumimor at 12:20 AM on May 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's disturbing when a politician is surprised that another politician does something mainly to make a political point.It's also very weird when a politician acknowledges a political stunt, and then provides the exact reaction that the stunt was intended to provoke. My dude, you are literally proving their point.
A savvy politician would have apologized, and offered to reschedule the speech with a translator present. It concedes nothing, and doesn't make you look like the bad guy.
posted by schmod at 9:45 AM on May 16, 2023
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It's disturbing when a politician is surprised that another politician does something mainly to make a political point.
I'm not sure what the end goal Greenlanders have in mind is, but I'm confident the Danish government could do significantly better than it has done in the past.
posted by plonkee at 8:47 AM on May 15, 2023 [6 favorites]