The Cosmopolitan Class
May 18, 2023 11:14 AM Subscribe
It doesn’t take much theorizing to notice that this banal cosmopolitan approach to the world isn’t a form of rebellion or a noble counter to the prevailing capitalistic, nationalistic business as usual. It’s very much aligned with the dominant system. The expat who moves to Portugal because they’ve been priced out of their American housing market uses the same logic of a multinational corporation transferring their operations to Bangladesh. They’re both trying to get more bang for their buck. And neither tries to argue they owe something to their new locale. Their money should be enough. from Americans Abroad by Jessa Crispin
Yeah we need communities in the places we live and work in order to survive and thrive. Getting our needs met through bank transfers is not really healthy for us, nor is it a good idea for the long run. Nike can pay off the security forces to protect its interests. Our only real power lies in relating to each other.
posted by grobstein at 11:23 AM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by grobstein at 11:23 AM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Expats who move to Portugal have not been priced out of the USA. They've been priced out of the highly desirable city they want to live in. They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo. Weep not for them.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:27 AM on May 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:27 AM on May 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
I think in general this piece is effective and describes a real dynamic. The language difference between "expats" and "immigrants" is a good example.
Having said that: there are Americans, and always have been, who reside elsewhere and might better be described as "exile" or "refugee". There will probably be more of them in the coming decades. And the line here is not always clear-cut. If I end up leaving the US because of safety reasons having to do with being trans, I'd be a pretty privileged immigrant. And I'm sure my initial relationship with wherever I ended up would be shallow, and probably similar to some of what is described in this article, though I'd try my best to deepen it over time. I don't think I would be "using the logic of a multinational corporation" in doing so.
posted by feckless at 11:32 AM on May 18, 2023 [34 favorites]
Having said that: there are Americans, and always have been, who reside elsewhere and might better be described as "exile" or "refugee". There will probably be more of them in the coming decades. And the line here is not always clear-cut. If I end up leaving the US because of safety reasons having to do with being trans, I'd be a pretty privileged immigrant. And I'm sure my initial relationship with wherever I ended up would be shallow, and probably similar to some of what is described in this article, though I'd try my best to deepen it over time. I don't think I would be "using the logic of a multinational corporation" in doing so.
posted by feckless at 11:32 AM on May 18, 2023 [34 favorites]
If I end up leaving the US because of safety reasons having to do with being trans, I'd be a pretty privileged immigrant. And I'm sure my initial relationship with wherever I ended up would be shallow, and probably similar to some of what is described in this article, though I'd try my best to deepen it over time. I don't think I would be "using the logic of a multinational corporation" in doing so.
Absolutely.
The piece both practices and lampshades a familiar sort of guilt-based framing:
posted by grobstein at 11:48 AM on May 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
Absolutely.
The piece both practices and lampshades a familiar sort of guilt-based framing:
I enjoy indulging in one of the favorite activities of the American abroad: judging other Americans abroad.I don't think that's productive at all. I don't care who the good and bad expats are. The question is, what are the good ways to live?
posted by grobstein at 11:48 AM on May 18, 2023 [19 favorites]
Yeah, I think that analogy breaks down pretty quickly. Multinationals who swoop in to avoid regulations, poison air and water, take advantage of super cheap labor, and avoid taxes are quite a bit different than visa toting immigrants who pay taxes and spend their money in the local economy. I have a good friend who lives in Portugal expressly because Portugal wanted digital nomads and their capital to revitalize the economy.
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:53 AM on May 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 11:53 AM on May 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
Using the logic of a multinational corporation would be if they were moving specifically so they wouldn’t have to pay their domestic servants as much. Companies move to other countries not because the rent is lower, but because the labor laws are worse and they can exploit their staff more.
Or, on preview, what ohenrypacey said.
posted by Jon_Evil at 12:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Or, on preview, what ohenrypacey said.
posted by Jon_Evil at 12:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, I'll just chime in from the pov of those Portugals... Especially one where a marginalized identity American lands in a place where, if they were a local, they'd be arrested and jailed for that very same identity, if not just outright discriminated institutionally, if not for the American identity bit. Flare-ups have occurred before, though the last infamous regional one was a Black American queer lady who got viralled because she was trying to monetize her experience which mainly involved overstaying her visa. (ETA: second link in case BuzzFeed News goes dark)
Of course even if you're a legal visa holder, "take advantage of super cheap labor" and "spend their money in the local economy" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
posted by cendawanita at 12:13 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Of course even if you're a legal visa holder, "take advantage of super cheap labor" and "spend their money in the local economy" are not mutually exclusive concepts.
posted by cendawanita at 12:13 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
(It's worth noting that, as per statements from the authorities in the second link, she did not overstay her visa. She was however, setting up and running a business on a tourist visa.)
posted by Dysk at 12:29 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:29 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, technically true. I've sorted it in my mind as overstaying since the other thing digital nomads like to do is "visa runs" - fly out to a neighbouring country for a weekend and come back to restart the clock.
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:36 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the analogy holds up. China, India, Malaysia, Indonesia and so on want multinationals and their capital to revitalize or add to their economies.
The complaint is the bargain that the government strikes without necessarily having full buy in from the local population. As it says in the article, the foreign money is good to have in the economy, but you eventually get repercussions in the form of displacing locals, local culture, and infrastructure that can't support the footprint of a western lifestyle.
posted by just.good.enough at 12:41 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
The complaint is the bargain that the government strikes without necessarily having full buy in from the local population. As it says in the article, the foreign money is good to have in the economy, but you eventually get repercussions in the form of displacing locals, local culture, and infrastructure that can't support the footprint of a western lifestyle.
posted by just.good.enough at 12:41 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Although I knew from the framing and my own vague judgment that this was a Bad Thing, I was reading about moving to Colombia and thinking: ¿es tan facilmente?
They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo. Weep not for them.
Not when red states are doubling down on fascist legislation and many blue states are holding onto majorities by their fingernails. I feel profound uprooting and loss as it is, just by living in the North. But I have no plans to try to leave the country, although that's mainly because of my family, who would never want to leave. Plus I have very little to offer as an immigrant. This I know because back in 2016 I made a spreadsheet about possible countries to move to.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:47 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo. Weep not for them.
Not when red states are doubling down on fascist legislation and many blue states are holding onto majorities by their fingernails. I feel profound uprooting and loss as it is, just by living in the North. But I have no plans to try to leave the country, although that's mainly because of my family, who would never want to leave. Plus I have very little to offer as an immigrant. This I know because back in 2016 I made a spreadsheet about possible countries to move to.
posted by Countess Elena at 12:47 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo.
Based on the conversation about Cleveland in the SF thread from yesterday I'm not sure they'd be any more welcome in any of those places.
And for what it's worth the couple in the article lives in Philadelphia. Which is one of the cities where people are perpetually telling those complaining SF and NYC folks to go. But it's also too expensive now, because too many of them did.
It's almost like the problem is artificial scarcity and greed, or something.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on May 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
Based on the conversation about Cleveland in the SF thread from yesterday I'm not sure they'd be any more welcome in any of those places.
And for what it's worth the couple in the article lives in Philadelphia. Which is one of the cities where people are perpetually telling those complaining SF and NYC folks to go. But it's also too expensive now, because too many of them did.
It's almost like the problem is artificial scarcity and greed, or something.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:48 PM on May 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
(maybe neither here not there but it sets my teeth on edge that she says "Americans are naive. Babies, really," about a people who have to contemplate their children being destroyed by artillery fire at school and who refuse ambulance rides because they can't afford them. I take her point about ignorant tourists, but --)
posted by Countess Elena at 12:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 12:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [38 favorites]
Five years ago, at ~50 years old, we were deciding where in the world we would want to retire to. I mean just considering all options. Factoring in citizenship/residency, health care, affordability, homogeneity (don't want to live around a supermajority of white people), corruption, conservatism/fascism/racism, ease of integration, language, etc etc etc ... we chose Toronto. It's not very affordable but with a lot of sacrifices we're making it work. Not that we're retired yet, but we have a financial plan that sees us stable until we check out. We considered a LOT of possibilities, and the biggest obstacle was lack of integration. We didn't wan't to be "the expats/immigrants" we wanted to feel like we would be accepted. I don't want to spend my last decades struggling to make new friends or getting stared at on the street (for the wrong reasons).
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:55 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:55 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
They had established policies to attract tourism dollars but hadn’t been prepared for the influx of tourists and their expectations.
Again, here we go: greed. Easy as fuck to make some marketing and appeal to tourists and digital nomads. Then just rake in the money, who gives a fuck about any of the people involved. Where's that money go? Eh somewhere. Does it go into building housing and improving internet connectivity and other things that would be net gains for the population? LOL.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:57 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Again, here we go: greed. Easy as fuck to make some marketing and appeal to tourists and digital nomads. Then just rake in the money, who gives a fuck about any of the people involved. Where's that money go? Eh somewhere. Does it go into building housing and improving internet connectivity and other things that would be net gains for the population? LOL.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:57 PM on May 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
They've been priced out of the highly desirable city they want to live in. They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo. Weep not for them.
I'm not sure that's quite true, allowing for American exceptionalism. There are places in the world far better than major cities in the US, depending on what you are looking for. This guy moved to Mexico City, while still holding onto homes in SF and other desirable places. I'm not sure this is exactly representative, but it's not that far off.
It's also not that different in the US. People move to the US from other countries for higher pay and better opportunities.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not sure that's quite true, allowing for American exceptionalism. There are places in the world far better than major cities in the US, depending on what you are looking for. This guy moved to Mexico City, while still holding onto homes in SF and other desirable places. I'm not sure this is exactly representative, but it's not that far off.
It's also not that different in the US. People move to the US from other countries for higher pay and better opportunities.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
And for what it's worth the couple in the article lives in Philadelphia. Which is one of the cities where people are perpetually telling those complaining SF and NYC folks to go. But it's also too expensive now, because too many of them did.
I live in Philadelphia. It is not too expensive, at least not for people who can afford to just move to another country. And saying that "too many people" moved to Philadelphia is a NIMBY talking point, so please don't. Here is a chart of Philadelphia's average rent over the last 9 years. It has gone up a little, but not by that much.
I'm not here to cast judgement on people who need or want to leave the US because of its politics and how they intersect with anyone's safety. But laptop warriors who want their remote USD bucks to go further in Costa Rica or some foreign urban enclave with a great exchange rate do not classify as being "priced out" of the US.
Also, I've been an expat and run in those circles. Generally the Americans I've known and met who decided to move abroad (none of whom moved for personal safety reasons) have been insufferable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:17 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
I live in Philadelphia. It is not too expensive, at least not for people who can afford to just move to another country. And saying that "too many people" moved to Philadelphia is a NIMBY talking point, so please don't. Here is a chart of Philadelphia's average rent over the last 9 years. It has gone up a little, but not by that much.
I'm not here to cast judgement on people who need or want to leave the US because of its politics and how they intersect with anyone's safety. But laptop warriors who want their remote USD bucks to go further in Costa Rica or some foreign urban enclave with a great exchange rate do not classify as being "priced out" of the US.
Also, I've been an expat and run in those circles. Generally the Americans I've known and met who decided to move abroad (none of whom moved for personal safety reasons) have been insufferable.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:17 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, I've been an expat and run in those circles. Generally the Americans I've known and met who decided to move abroad (none of whom moved for personal safety reasons) have been insufferable.
I'm also getting the distinct vibe that many of them find all expats except themselves to be insufferable...
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:00 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm also getting the distinct vibe that many of them find all expats except themselves to be insufferable...
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 2:00 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Two deleted. Please refer to the Content Policy. "In general, cursing is fine on the site, but cursing at someone else is not okay."
posted by loup (staff) at 2:04 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 2:04 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think that analogy breaks down pretty quickly. Multinationals who swoop in to avoid regulations, poison air and water, take advantage of super cheap labor, and avoid taxes are quite a bit different than visa toting immigrants who pay taxes and spend their money in the local economy
It’s sort of a spectrum, right? Sometimes people (i.e. sex tourists) literally do go abroad to avoid the pesky laws of their native country.
But on average, yes, sometimes I feel like people almost disproportionately get mad about individuals engaging in some kind of lifestyle arbitrage, compared to companies doing the inverse version with labor at scale, because those individuals present a human face to be mad at.
posted by atoxyl at 2:04 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
It’s sort of a spectrum, right? Sometimes people (i.e. sex tourists) literally do go abroad to avoid the pesky laws of their native country.
But on average, yes, sometimes I feel like people almost disproportionately get mad about individuals engaging in some kind of lifestyle arbitrage, compared to companies doing the inverse version with labor at scale, because those individuals present a human face to be mad at.
posted by atoxyl at 2:04 PM on May 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
My brother retired from the US Foreign Service to Provence because he has lived everywhere in the world (and not in the USA) for his entire career and Provence was just far enough from his wife’s parents in Germany. My aunt and uncle retired to Tennessee because it was the cheapest place to live in the USA. And I moved from the horrid suburbs to a row home in Philadelphia because I love the city and I can get everywhere on the bus. People have made decisions to move for a lot of reasons, sometimes financial and sometimes political. That process is often called immigration. It’s always problematic and it happens constantly. Do we want a world in which people can’t move? Just wondering, I don’t disagree that there are plenty of disagreeable expats.
posted by Peach at 2:07 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Peach at 2:07 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
So, I did the math, and if Mrs. Ocschwar and I sold our house and bought one in the Azores, we'd qualify for a Golden Visa, and be able to live roughly the same life we live right now, with me working remotely, which I already do. The math almost checks out, but it's a hell of a gamble when you have to sell out the house.
Lisbon is out of reach for us. Rural Portugal is decidedly not. And the Azores, are, well, the Azores. Stunningly beautiful.
Why do this? Because Portuguese is easy to learn, and Portuguese life is comfortable, and while in Lisbon they're pissed off at the rents and home prices shooting up, rural Portugal does not have this problem and it does have a dearth of jobs and young locals leaving. Well, staying in your hometown making pasteis for keyboard warriors is better than staying in your hometown unemployed. Some of the interest in Portugal comes from Americans who don't care that Portugal is fashionable, only that it's Portugal.
posted by ocschwar at 2:10 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Lisbon is out of reach for us. Rural Portugal is decidedly not. And the Azores, are, well, the Azores. Stunningly beautiful.
Why do this? Because Portuguese is easy to learn, and Portuguese life is comfortable, and while in Lisbon they're pissed off at the rents and home prices shooting up, rural Portugal does not have this problem and it does have a dearth of jobs and young locals leaving. Well, staying in your hometown making pasteis for keyboard warriors is better than staying in your hometown unemployed. Some of the interest in Portugal comes from Americans who don't care that Portugal is fashionable, only that it's Portugal.
posted by ocschwar at 2:10 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Expats who move to Portugal have not been priced out of the USA. They've been priced out of the highly desirable city they want to live in. They can obviously work remotely, so they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo. Weep not for them.
Nice. I'm glad you settled that. Here I was thinking that living on a fixed income below the poverty line in the US might mean a move to someplace less expensive was called for. Thank god you settled that for me. Now I see the error of my ways and that fridge box down by the river is the just desserts of a life lived in the US.
posted by evilDoug at 2:13 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Nice. I'm glad you settled that. Here I was thinking that living on a fixed income below the poverty line in the US might mean a move to someplace less expensive was called for. Thank god you settled that for me. Now I see the error of my ways and that fridge box down by the river is the just desserts of a life lived in the US.
posted by evilDoug at 2:13 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Portugal is actually ending its Golden Visa scheme. The reasons cited appear to be soaring rents and inflation.
posted by vacapinta at 2:19 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by vacapinta at 2:19 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's not like I'd have the guts to follow through on the scheme before the window of opportunity closed. So it goes. But not everyone who did this is an asshole.
posted by ocschwar at 2:21 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 2:21 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
The issue is not mobility of labor, but rather the restriction of that mobility to only certain favored classes. It is truly truly truly weird to think any individual's choice to live and work in a different country is even vaguely comparable to what the mobility of capital has done to the planet over the past few decades.
That said, of course it is possible to be exploitative and/or a general dick wherever one is, and doubtless more so if one does not feel a personal connection to the location and one's neighbors. Still, the expat being dismissive of their adopted country's labor struggles was probably not paying into social security for their housekeeper or nanny back home, either (or wouldn't have been if they had had the income to support hiring such a person).
posted by praemunire at 2:33 PM on May 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
That said, of course it is possible to be exploitative and/or a general dick wherever one is, and doubtless more so if one does not feel a personal connection to the location and one's neighbors. Still, the expat being dismissive of their adopted country's labor struggles was probably not paying into social security for their housekeeper or nanny back home, either (or wouldn't have been if they had had the income to support hiring such a person).
posted by praemunire at 2:33 PM on May 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
How does any of the economic analogies in the linked article not apply to internal re-location? Gentrification in the US and Mexico is driven by internal migration. Are nation-states sacred again?
I am also worried about the article seeming to turn "cosmopolitan" into a bad word... that has a very evil history, in Europe and the Soviet Union.
posted by Vegiemon at 2:42 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
I am also worried about the article seeming to turn "cosmopolitan" into a bad word... that has a very evil history, in Europe and the Soviet Union.
posted by Vegiemon at 2:42 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
I’m not sure why Portugal is such a focus of this thread, given the article is about Colombia and Mexico, but since it is: no one owes Portugal anything. Portugal murdered and pillaged it’s way around half the world for 400 years; if they are now subject to a soft form of colonization themselves, that’s just desserts. The same goes for the UK, Spain, the US, Russia, France, and any other current or former empire.
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 2:51 PM on May 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Just the one swan, actually at 2:51 PM on May 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
... they could just as easily live in Detroit or Pittsburgh or Kalamazoo
I've got family that settled in Northeastern Ohio, and another friend in Southern Ohio, who are regularly making overtures that I should cash out of Northern California and come live there on a song. And the thing I keep telling them is that it's not enough to be cheap, because when they're doing that, they're competing with the world.
I left Chattanooga 28 years ago for the SF Bay Area, and there's a lot about that area I still love, but Tennessee politics, and a lot of the culture, make that a no-go for me.
I have a trans friend currently in Florida. She's making decisions about where to leave to, and the portions of the US that qualify are very expensive to live in. So, yeah, she gets a little white US Citizen privilege wherever she goes, but she's sure not gonna get that internally in the US.
And for those of us who moved around a lot in our childhood, it's hard to find a compelling reason to call one place "home" and the other not.
Which I guess is the point: we could, as easily, live in Detroit or Dayton or Chattanooga, but if we're gonna go somewhere, why not make it a developed nation, with healthcare and aspirations and whatnot? If it's Medellín vs Modesto, that seems like an easy choice.
posted by straw at 3:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I've got family that settled in Northeastern Ohio, and another friend in Southern Ohio, who are regularly making overtures that I should cash out of Northern California and come live there on a song. And the thing I keep telling them is that it's not enough to be cheap, because when they're doing that, they're competing with the world.
I left Chattanooga 28 years ago for the SF Bay Area, and there's a lot about that area I still love, but Tennessee politics, and a lot of the culture, make that a no-go for me.
I have a trans friend currently in Florida. She's making decisions about where to leave to, and the portions of the US that qualify are very expensive to live in. So, yeah, she gets a little white US Citizen privilege wherever she goes, but she's sure not gonna get that internally in the US.
And for those of us who moved around a lot in our childhood, it's hard to find a compelling reason to call one place "home" and the other not.
Which I guess is the point: we could, as easily, live in Detroit or Dayton or Chattanooga, but if we're gonna go somewhere, why not make it a developed nation, with healthcare and aspirations and whatnot? If it's Medellín vs Modesto, that seems like an easy choice.
posted by straw at 3:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I grew up in Detroit (a deep blue city in a state which just amended its constitution to add a right to abortion and its laws to repeal right-to-work). Please don't move there instead; they don't need these attitudes, especially from affluent white folks.
posted by praemunire at 4:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 4:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I usually love Crispin's writing but America's first sense of decline? Didn't the Great Depression count? I don't know, I'm American so I feel like a giant nerd just pointing that out. It's the first time because it's happening to me, baby! The rest didn't count!
posted by kingdead at 4:17 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kingdead at 4:17 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
This article is beyond parody. Americans are babies who only want to talk to other Americans! Now hear me rave about the only American in the Museo de Arte Moderno de Medellín.
posted by betweenthebars at 4:35 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by betweenthebars at 4:35 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Perhaps "expats" are people who believe that it was completely random that they were a "pat" in the first place and no simply no longer care what behemoth exercises some spurious claim to land that is in the long run the property of the whole human race.
Screw countries. Take care of your neighbors.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
Screw countries. Take care of your neighbors.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]
The issue is not mobility of labor, but rather the restriction of that mobility to only certain favored classes.
Yes, I was trying to put my finger on what feels different compared to previous waves of migration, even affluent "expat" migration. I think it's the sheer number of relatively affluent workers who thanks to 21st century tech can move to essentially anywhere, provided there's halfway decent internet access, and be fully removed from the local labor market? And really as removed from the local society as they wish, provided it meets pretty basic standards of being able to provide safety and comfort to the relatively rich.
They're functionally more like tourists or retirees than workers—from the point of view of their neighbors, does it matter that they spend a few hours a day in front of their computers writing code or marketing copy or whatever rather than watching Netflix or rereading Agatha Christie?
That's genuinely something new to be happening en masse, I think. Like even prior generations of expat workers/soldiers/diplomats/foreign correspondents/etc. with overseas employers were generally there because somebody controlling the purse strings wanted them there specifically to interact with the local society or environment in some way.
posted by smelendez at 5:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yes, I was trying to put my finger on what feels different compared to previous waves of migration, even affluent "expat" migration. I think it's the sheer number of relatively affluent workers who thanks to 21st century tech can move to essentially anywhere, provided there's halfway decent internet access, and be fully removed from the local labor market? And really as removed from the local society as they wish, provided it meets pretty basic standards of being able to provide safety and comfort to the relatively rich.
They're functionally more like tourists or retirees than workers—from the point of view of their neighbors, does it matter that they spend a few hours a day in front of their computers writing code or marketing copy or whatever rather than watching Netflix or rereading Agatha Christie?
That's genuinely something new to be happening en masse, I think. Like even prior generations of expat workers/soldiers/diplomats/foreign correspondents/etc. with overseas employers were generally there because somebody controlling the purse strings wanted them there specifically to interact with the local society or environment in some way.
posted by smelendez at 5:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [13 favorites]
At some point, I saw it pointed out that "expat" has strong connotations of "well-off white people with no intention of ever learning the local language or customs," and have basically only used the word ever since in a derogatory manner. As an American immigrant to Japan, there are rarely shortages of opportunities to draw this distinction.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:57 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:57 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
I have a trans friend currently in Florida. She's making decisions about where to leave to, and the portions of the US that qualify are very expensive to live in. So, yeah, she gets a little white US Citizen privilege wherever she goes, but she's sure not gonna get that internally in the US.
Internal migration in the US is itself so fraught--people who have to live in one area because it offers Medicaid or good disability benefits or it hasn't outlawed their way of life. But then these areas often have extremely high costs of living in and of themselves... I know so many people who have moved because "it's safer for my politics, my kid can come join me if she ever needs an abortion" or who have stayed somewhere they don't love because "where all my friends are doesn't offer insurance."
Obviously people move around all the time in other countries too, but I'm not sure if the legal differences from area to area within country are as striking. Like maybe someone trans in Germany would move to Berlin because I don't know, Baden Baden sucks and there's a good trans scene in Berlin (I have no actual idea about this, maybe the trans scene in Berlin also sucks), but they don't have to move because Baden Baden is criminalizing hormone prescriptions.
posted by kingdead at 6:37 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Internal migration in the US is itself so fraught--people who have to live in one area because it offers Medicaid or good disability benefits or it hasn't outlawed their way of life. But then these areas often have extremely high costs of living in and of themselves... I know so many people who have moved because "it's safer for my politics, my kid can come join me if she ever needs an abortion" or who have stayed somewhere they don't love because "where all my friends are doesn't offer insurance."
Obviously people move around all the time in other countries too, but I'm not sure if the legal differences from area to area within country are as striking. Like maybe someone trans in Germany would move to Berlin because I don't know, Baden Baden sucks and there's a good trans scene in Berlin (I have no actual idea about this, maybe the trans scene in Berlin also sucks), but they don't have to move because Baden Baden is criminalizing hormone prescriptions.
posted by kingdead at 6:37 PM on May 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I usually love Crispin's writing but America's first sense of decline? Didn't the Great Depression count?
If you want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, it's possible she meant "first" since America became the dominant superpower post-WWII.
They're functionally more like tourists or retirees than workers—from the point of view of their neighbors, does it matter that they spend a few hours a day in front of their computers writing code or marketing copy or whatever rather than watching Netflix or rereading Agatha Christie?
I think, as the article points out, the issue isn't just the expansion of digital nomads, it's also the growth of tourism and international retirees - they are all increasing, and all driving similar changes, more or less. It's the dramatic increase in certain parts of the world of people arriving with US dollars/British pounds/Euros who are distorting the local economies to the detriment of local residents (as mentioned in the article: taking up resources like clean water, safe housing near employment centers, electricity, etc.). Air travel has gotten markedly less expensive in the last two decades, and the Internet has made destinations that might have previously seemed "too foreign" or "too scary" to seem doable even for the not-so-adventurous traveler, especially those under 40. You can now pre-book hotels in pretty much every country over the Internet, you can watching countless YouTube videos by digital nomad vloggers - international travel no longer requires a sense of adventure.
It's not terribly different than how during 2020-2021, remote workers being paid salaries calculated to support a life lived in a high COL city have distorted the housing markets in up-until-recently low COL areas. The local jobs still pay low wages, and now those tied to local jobs can't afford the local housing.
So yeah, the issue is not Americans (or other elites) who move to another country for a local job, in the local currency -or to work a job in a multinational company that pays local taxes. That's how immigration has worked for decades. This is new.
posted by coffeecat at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
If you want to give the author the benefit of the doubt, it's possible she meant "first" since America became the dominant superpower post-WWII.
They're functionally more like tourists or retirees than workers—from the point of view of their neighbors, does it matter that they spend a few hours a day in front of their computers writing code or marketing copy or whatever rather than watching Netflix or rereading Agatha Christie?
I think, as the article points out, the issue isn't just the expansion of digital nomads, it's also the growth of tourism and international retirees - they are all increasing, and all driving similar changes, more or less. It's the dramatic increase in certain parts of the world of people arriving with US dollars/British pounds/Euros who are distorting the local economies to the detriment of local residents (as mentioned in the article: taking up resources like clean water, safe housing near employment centers, electricity, etc.). Air travel has gotten markedly less expensive in the last two decades, and the Internet has made destinations that might have previously seemed "too foreign" or "too scary" to seem doable even for the not-so-adventurous traveler, especially those under 40. You can now pre-book hotels in pretty much every country over the Internet, you can watching countless YouTube videos by digital nomad vloggers - international travel no longer requires a sense of adventure.
It's not terribly different than how during 2020-2021, remote workers being paid salaries calculated to support a life lived in a high COL city have distorted the housing markets in up-until-recently low COL areas. The local jobs still pay low wages, and now those tied to local jobs can't afford the local housing.
So yeah, the issue is not Americans (or other elites) who move to another country for a local job, in the local currency -or to work a job in a multinational company that pays local taxes. That's how immigration has worked for decades. This is new.
posted by coffeecat at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
I’ve never called myself an expat, but when I was living in Japan I never called myself an immigrant simply because I knew I would have to eventually leave.
A couple of my fellow eikaiwa monkeys managed to stick it out and acquire permanent residency, but most of us knew we were there for a time, and that time would eventually end.
I think yeah, my image of a expat is a perpetual foreigner who lives in an enclave of other foreigners of similar extraction. An immigrant stays. Now that I’m back in the US I spend time with lots of immigrants but I don’t know any expats. Of course an expat by my definition isn’t someone I’d meet so it’s a bit circular.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
A couple of my fellow eikaiwa monkeys managed to stick it out and acquire permanent residency, but most of us knew we were there for a time, and that time would eventually end.
I think yeah, my image of a expat is a perpetual foreigner who lives in an enclave of other foreigners of similar extraction. An immigrant stays. Now that I’m back in the US I spend time with lots of immigrants but I don’t know any expats. Of course an expat by my definition isn’t someone I’d meet so it’s a bit circular.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 6:43 PM on May 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just an anecdote. We liked to vacation in the Dominican Republic in the 90s. One time, during a taxi run to the airport, our driver asked if it would be ok with us if he picked up his friend on the way. His friend turned out to be an American ex-pat. The American had retired there, learned Spanish, and had clearly made some local friends, and wasn't just hunkered down in some gated community.
If you're gonna emigrate, that's the way to do it, I figure - join a new community and integrate with it.
And... Toronto... woah. We actually hoped to move out of Toronto... but after 30+ years here, a renovated small house in a quiet mixed neighbourhood, friends, decent transit and access to amenities (including a Great Lake), it's not terrible.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you're gonna emigrate, that's the way to do it, I figure - join a new community and integrate with it.
And... Toronto... woah. We actually hoped to move out of Toronto... but after 30+ years here, a renovated small house in a quiet mixed neighbourhood, friends, decent transit and access to amenities (including a Great Lake), it's not terrible.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Still, the expat being dismissive of their adopted country's labor struggles was probably not paying into social security for their housekeeper or nanny back home, either (or wouldn't have been if they had had the income to support hiring such a person).
If I were in and from their adopted country, I could totally see not wanting to have that problem exported to my doorstep. If you're gonna be a dick, stay home, don't come over here and be a dick to us.
posted by Dysk at 9:19 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
If I were in and from their adopted country, I could totally see not wanting to have that problem exported to my doorstep. If you're gonna be a dick, stay home, don't come over here and be a dick to us.
posted by Dysk at 9:19 PM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
You cannot have freedom until labor is afforded the same mobility as capital.
Abolish borders.
posted by aramaic at 9:55 PM on May 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
Abolish borders.
posted by aramaic at 9:55 PM on May 18, 2023 [24 favorites]
If I were in and from their adopted country, I could totally see not wanting to have that problem exported to my doorstep. If you're gonna be a dick, stay home, don't come over here and be a dick to us.
It does not make it okay to underpay your employees, but...exporting? Any group of expatriates is going to produce but a drop in the barrel of the exploitation practiced by local elites.
I will say, this has been an interesting thread for finding out who is low-key into nationalism and disciplining workers to national borders.
posted by praemunire at 10:26 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
It does not make it okay to underpay your employees, but...exporting? Any group of expatriates is going to produce but a drop in the barrel of the exploitation practiced by local elites.
I will say, this has been an interesting thread for finding out who is low-key into nationalism and disciplining workers to national borders.
posted by praemunire at 10:26 PM on May 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
I lived in Vienna for close to a decade in the 80’s. It was a great experience but back then when you left the US you really left because even calling cost a ton of money so you basically got to see people on those visits every couple of years. I didn’t know any other Americans and had to learn German because people didn’t really speak much English back then for some reason. Anways, the 90’s come along and suddenly next door in Prague it seems like every hip American and they’re “teaching English” and living the fantasy Eastern European boho life. Massive apartments rented on the black market for pennies etc. It was fascinating and terrifying (and FOMO-tastic) at the time. The articles take on the cosmopolitan expat reminded me of this. There are different ways to live abroad.
posted by misterpatrick at 11:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 11:01 PM on May 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
They’re both trying to get more bang for their buck. And neither tries to argue they owe something to their new locale. Their money should be enough.
For certain groups of people, the money is never enough, and if we don't owe something spectacular we should never even think of relocating - even though we are also denied the opportunity to contribute because of our foreign nature.
I've been a foreigner since I was born. My birth country, Malaysia - unlike somewhere like the US - doesn't automatically confer citizenship to anyone born within their borders. My parents, migrants themselves from Bangladesh, hadn't become eligible for permanent residency yet so I was born a foreigner and gained the citizenship of my parents' country of origin. I only ever went to Bangladesh for holidays; I couldn't read the language and people immediately clocked me as "boy? Girl? Oh, not from here" just by what I wore.
Yet despite being fully raised in Malaysia, amongst other Malaysians, public/government school and all - I was treated like a foreigner. Like an interloper. From the age of 10 I was made to answer for the supposed sins of my people. I had a relatively upper-middle-class upbringing (Dad was the CEO of a State-run company and in Bangladesh we might as well have been 1%ers) but that really just meant that we had to pay our own way out of things, since permanent residents get fuck all. (A far richer cousin got a Malaysian entrepreneur visa and he got way more access to things than we ever did.) My family are big travellers, and that "high-risk" green passport I held due to a bureaucratic fluke was the only thing considered when we applied for visas - which we had to for practically EVERYWHERE, and it was always the most expensive, time-consuming visas too. Me being Malaysian in all but name didn't matter to anybody.
By the time I finally got granted Malaysian citizenship (just after my 26th birthday, after a zillion years of waiting and one failed application under false claims of "you weren't a PR"), I was already waiting for my Australian permanent residency, having moved there for university and deciding to hang around. That process was another years-long heartbreak where I had to prove to the Australian government that I could pay double what I would (never) get out of them, that I wasn't a "drain on the healthcare system", that my English was impeccable even though a degree from an English language university in Australia wasn't enough to prove that, that I would be extra skilled so I would contribute to the country by working an honest job even though hardly anyone would hire me because despite having legal work rights no one would hire me. I was a "dole bludger" despite not being eligible for Centrelink/Social Security, I was "stealing taxpayer money" despite being liable for taxes from my first day as an international student, I was still a "drain on the healthcare system" because how dare my health insurance, which I pay for, cover my doctor's visits. (At least I got Medicare on a bridging visa.)
By the time the Australian PR had come through, I was in San Francisco. Technically a student visa got me there, so I did an MFA - in reality though, it was a literal life-and-death decision. I had been in SF for the summer beforehand and fell in love, found my people. I came back to even more languishing over failed job applications, over my personal and professional lives falling apart due to a myriad of factors, some structural, some personal, some my fault, some not. I was cycling through meds trying to find the right one and was losing the will to live. It was either SF or die.
I actually got way further in SF on a student visa (and the year long extension) than I ever did anywhere else. During my degree I was only allowed on campus work (compared to Australia where I'd have a bit more freedom of choice so long as it wasn't over 20 hours/week), but I actually GOT work. I even managed to spin a great paid year-long community arts gig into my MFA project and it was all legal! I don't know if it's a quirk of SF or if this would be the case anywhere else in the States, but people didn't seem to care two hoots about my visa status. I was getting interviews for higher level jobs than I was back in Australia. I thought I could build a life here. SF was the first place that felt like home.
But I couldn't figure out a H1-B-compatible job in time. I had offers to consider an O Visa or even an E Visa, for artists of merit, but I didn't have the funds or resources for it. I reluctantly left the city.
I became an Australian citizen last year. Malaysia doesn't allow sharing, which also made me drop the Bangladeshi citizenship, so I'm effectively a foreigner to them - not that much different than the usual, I suppose. I still wonder if I should have tried harder to stay in the US, Australian PR be damned - I've only just managed to make the same career inroads here now and even still it's not nearly as inviting or open as the US was. My time on a bridging visa continues to haunt me, the spectre of "not specific enough experience" following me when I apply to work for places that damn well know who I am and what I can do. Maybe the couple of opportunities I've finally landed this year will get me past those blocks - 10 years after similar opportunities were available to me in San Francisco, blocked only by the immigration system and the bucks I couldn't give any bang to.
(The night of my Australian citizenship ceremony, I learned that a friend of mine did get supported for an O Visa via an American organisation that produced a project that we were both involved in. She had no idea of my US visa history, and she definitely deserved the O Visa ten times over, but internally I was seething.)
I did go to an expat meeting one time, conscious that my family's upper-middle-class background put me closer to them than to what gets considered an "immigrant" here (even though neither the Bangladeshi Taka nor the Malaysian ringgit goes particularly far in either country). I felt very out of place - probably because unlike everyone else there, secure in Australia e(ven if temporarily) with a job or to accompany someone with a job, I still had a precarious employment situation, living on irregular gigs and family support while piles of job applications go unanswered. But my more direct peers didn't find me relatable either - I didn't know the pain of dealing with Centrelink (at the time, I couldn't), I still had family support me (no one else was), I could jump on a plane on a whim (to see my dying grandmother for the last time, but that didn't matter). I even find it hard to connect with other PoC here sometimes because their experience of immigration is either only via their parents or as a tiny child - contemporary adult migrants like myself don't register in their consciousness. The main people that get it are other international students, though very few get the chance to hang around, because immigration says "no" no matter how much you give to the country. It's never enough.
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
For certain groups of people, the money is never enough, and if we don't owe something spectacular we should never even think of relocating - even though we are also denied the opportunity to contribute because of our foreign nature.
I've been a foreigner since I was born. My birth country, Malaysia - unlike somewhere like the US - doesn't automatically confer citizenship to anyone born within their borders. My parents, migrants themselves from Bangladesh, hadn't become eligible for permanent residency yet so I was born a foreigner and gained the citizenship of my parents' country of origin. I only ever went to Bangladesh for holidays; I couldn't read the language and people immediately clocked me as "boy? Girl? Oh, not from here" just by what I wore.
Yet despite being fully raised in Malaysia, amongst other Malaysians, public/government school and all - I was treated like a foreigner. Like an interloper. From the age of 10 I was made to answer for the supposed sins of my people. I had a relatively upper-middle-class upbringing (Dad was the CEO of a State-run company and in Bangladesh we might as well have been 1%ers) but that really just meant that we had to pay our own way out of things, since permanent residents get fuck all. (A far richer cousin got a Malaysian entrepreneur visa and he got way more access to things than we ever did.) My family are big travellers, and that "high-risk" green passport I held due to a bureaucratic fluke was the only thing considered when we applied for visas - which we had to for practically EVERYWHERE, and it was always the most expensive, time-consuming visas too. Me being Malaysian in all but name didn't matter to anybody.
By the time I finally got granted Malaysian citizenship (just after my 26th birthday, after a zillion years of waiting and one failed application under false claims of "you weren't a PR"), I was already waiting for my Australian permanent residency, having moved there for university and deciding to hang around. That process was another years-long heartbreak where I had to prove to the Australian government that I could pay double what I would (never) get out of them, that I wasn't a "drain on the healthcare system", that my English was impeccable even though a degree from an English language university in Australia wasn't enough to prove that, that I would be extra skilled so I would contribute to the country by working an honest job even though hardly anyone would hire me because despite having legal work rights no one would hire me. I was a "dole bludger" despite not being eligible for Centrelink/Social Security, I was "stealing taxpayer money" despite being liable for taxes from my first day as an international student, I was still a "drain on the healthcare system" because how dare my health insurance, which I pay for, cover my doctor's visits. (At least I got Medicare on a bridging visa.)
By the time the Australian PR had come through, I was in San Francisco. Technically a student visa got me there, so I did an MFA - in reality though, it was a literal life-and-death decision. I had been in SF for the summer beforehand and fell in love, found my people. I came back to even more languishing over failed job applications, over my personal and professional lives falling apart due to a myriad of factors, some structural, some personal, some my fault, some not. I was cycling through meds trying to find the right one and was losing the will to live. It was either SF or die.
I actually got way further in SF on a student visa (and the year long extension) than I ever did anywhere else. During my degree I was only allowed on campus work (compared to Australia where I'd have a bit more freedom of choice so long as it wasn't over 20 hours/week), but I actually GOT work. I even managed to spin a great paid year-long community arts gig into my MFA project and it was all legal! I don't know if it's a quirk of SF or if this would be the case anywhere else in the States, but people didn't seem to care two hoots about my visa status. I was getting interviews for higher level jobs than I was back in Australia. I thought I could build a life here. SF was the first place that felt like home.
But I couldn't figure out a H1-B-compatible job in time. I had offers to consider an O Visa or even an E Visa, for artists of merit, but I didn't have the funds or resources for it. I reluctantly left the city.
I became an Australian citizen last year. Malaysia doesn't allow sharing, which also made me drop the Bangladeshi citizenship, so I'm effectively a foreigner to them - not that much different than the usual, I suppose. I still wonder if I should have tried harder to stay in the US, Australian PR be damned - I've only just managed to make the same career inroads here now and even still it's not nearly as inviting or open as the US was. My time on a bridging visa continues to haunt me, the spectre of "not specific enough experience" following me when I apply to work for places that damn well know who I am and what I can do. Maybe the couple of opportunities I've finally landed this year will get me past those blocks - 10 years after similar opportunities were available to me in San Francisco, blocked only by the immigration system and the bucks I couldn't give any bang to.
(The night of my Australian citizenship ceremony, I learned that a friend of mine did get supported for an O Visa via an American organisation that produced a project that we were both involved in. She had no idea of my US visa history, and she definitely deserved the O Visa ten times over, but internally I was seething.)
I did go to an expat meeting one time, conscious that my family's upper-middle-class background put me closer to them than to what gets considered an "immigrant" here (even though neither the Bangladeshi Taka nor the Malaysian ringgit goes particularly far in either country). I felt very out of place - probably because unlike everyone else there, secure in Australia e(ven if temporarily) with a job or to accompany someone with a job, I still had a precarious employment situation, living on irregular gigs and family support while piles of job applications go unanswered. But my more direct peers didn't find me relatable either - I didn't know the pain of dealing with Centrelink (at the time, I couldn't), I still had family support me (no one else was), I could jump on a plane on a whim (to see my dying grandmother for the last time, but that didn't matter). I even find it hard to connect with other PoC here sometimes because their experience of immigration is either only via their parents or as a tiny child - contemporary adult migrants like myself don't register in their consciousness. The main people that get it are other international students, though very few get the chance to hang around, because immigration says "no" no matter how much you give to the country. It's never enough.
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:02 PM on May 18, 2023 [29 favorites]
creatrixtiara, you're not an immigrant or an expat, you're a third culture kid. Your background brings particular challenges of belonging and identity that can be quite difficult to navigate. And sure, you may be socio-economically privileged, as many TCKs are, as we tend to have upper middle class backgrounds. But please, be kind to yourself, and try to find fellow TCKs who share some aspects of your experience.
posted by sid at 11:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sid at 11:52 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Any group of expatriates is going to produce but a drop in the barrel of the exploitation practiced by local elites.
It really depends where you are. Parts of Spain as an escape are utterly dominated by British or Scandinavian expats. This kind of thing creates many of the same problems as other forms of gentrification, but with added cultural chauvinism and, depending on context, neo-colonialism.
I will say, this has been an interesting thread for finding out who is low-key into nationalism
That is not what is happening here.
posted by Dysk at 12:12 AM on May 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
It really depends where you are. Parts of Spain as an escape are utterly dominated by British or Scandinavian expats. This kind of thing creates many of the same problems as other forms of gentrification, but with added cultural chauvinism and, depending on context, neo-colonialism.
I will say, this has been an interesting thread for finding out who is low-key into nationalism
That is not what is happening here.
posted by Dysk at 12:12 AM on May 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
(I say all of the above as kind of a third culture kid myself - I am Danish, but lived essentially my entire childhood in Hong Kong, before moving to the UK at 18 where I have lived since. I am not blameless, my family are not blameless.)
posted by Dysk at 12:36 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 12:36 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I say all of the above as kind of a third culture kid myself - I am Danish, but lived essentially my entire childhood in Hong Kong, before moving to the UK at 18 where I have lived since. I am not blameless, my family are not blameless.)
I don't know if we can blamed for what we were subjected to by our families. Does any TCK really have the choice to go back 'home'? The best we can do is make a refuges for ourselves wherever we can manage.
posted by sid at 12:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know if we can blamed for what we were subjected to by our families. Does any TCK really have the choice to go back 'home'? The best we can do is make a refuges for ourselves wherever we can manage.
posted by sid at 12:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
sid: I'm a third culture kid AND ALSO an immigrant (to Australia, as an adult). My family were counted as "expats" when they moved to Malaysia. They all intersect; don't take those words away from me.
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:04 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by creatrixtiara at 1:04 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
creatrixtiara: apologies, no disrespect intended! We all have different journeys, I'm sorry if I negated yours.
posted by sid at 1:17 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sid at 1:17 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
People have always retired overseas on their pensions. I have to say, I’m not really sure why it’s somehow worse for people to do the same thing while remote working.
posted by corb at 1:40 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:40 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
This article falls into the usual trap of blaming people trying to lead their lives, instead of pointing out the destructiveness of capitalism and corporate greed. Sure, let's all point fingers at each other. Blaming 'expats' for anything is closer than you think to blaming 'immigrants' which at least everyone knows is a bad look. (Personally, I don't see the need for borders which are the legacy of the age of empires and then hardened during the era of 20th century extreme Nationalism. People are people.)
My in-laws live in central Lisbon. They have been there a long time in the same apartment building. Long ago, the building was full of Portuguese families. But the kids grew up, moved away, older people passed away. The apartment building has a few internationals now. But what it has, above all, is vacant apartments. This, in the middle of a desirable neighborhood in Lisbon, in a building overlooking a garden square.
The expats/immigrants/tourists may have started the price rises but capital soon swooped in to keep squeezing it. Corporations from Portugal and abroad bought up houses in order to rent them or more likely put them on AirBnB. The land grab raised prices further and meant that you don't even have to rent/airbnb your place any longer. Just sit on it and it will climb in value all by itself. And so property sits vacant.
The expats and immigrants (many from Brazil) have been great for Lisbon. When I first started visiting in the 2000's it seemed that Lisbon was going to die of boredom. It was an old, decaying city, uncared for, unloved. Suburban flight was already taking place. The few city residents stayed locked in their dark houses. When I first visited - again this is like in 2004 - restaurants didn't have terraces. That only arrived later brought along by tourists and expats. The city began an incredible process of renewal which continued and helped to make it the desirable city it is today - modern, progressive but also with an old world beauty.
Immigration is a good thing. It has renewed and revitalized everything it has touched. It is what made Amsterdam great in the 17th century (30% of the residents were born abroad and that number has stayed stable for centuries), and then Venice and then London in the 19th then New York City in the 20th century. Human history is migration. Migration is in our DNA.
A bit of my own history reflects this.
Only a few generations ago, my great-great-grandparents, Iberian Jews moved from Europe to Mexico probably for the usual reasons Jews are on the move. This was on my mother's side. My paternal grandparents, though, found life so difficult in Mexico that they moved to the USA - a growing country desperate for labor - in the early 20th century. The border was porous, as borders used to be. I grew up in California, married a European and now find myself living here in Amsterdam.
There's an old synagogue here in town. In one room, you can see plaques with the names of many Amsterdam residents from hundreds of years ago. It is not hard to find a 'Pimentel' among the names. That's the surname of my maternal great-grandfather too. Pimentel. These Pimentels probably came from the same place. They just fled in different directions. This has been part of a process going on not just for centuries but for millenia.
posted by vacapinta at 1:48 AM on May 19, 2023 [37 favorites]
My in-laws live in central Lisbon. They have been there a long time in the same apartment building. Long ago, the building was full of Portuguese families. But the kids grew up, moved away, older people passed away. The apartment building has a few internationals now. But what it has, above all, is vacant apartments. This, in the middle of a desirable neighborhood in Lisbon, in a building overlooking a garden square.
The expats/immigrants/tourists may have started the price rises but capital soon swooped in to keep squeezing it. Corporations from Portugal and abroad bought up houses in order to rent them or more likely put them on AirBnB. The land grab raised prices further and meant that you don't even have to rent/airbnb your place any longer. Just sit on it and it will climb in value all by itself. And so property sits vacant.
The expats and immigrants (many from Brazil) have been great for Lisbon. When I first started visiting in the 2000's it seemed that Lisbon was going to die of boredom. It was an old, decaying city, uncared for, unloved. Suburban flight was already taking place. The few city residents stayed locked in their dark houses. When I first visited - again this is like in 2004 - restaurants didn't have terraces. That only arrived later brought along by tourists and expats. The city began an incredible process of renewal which continued and helped to make it the desirable city it is today - modern, progressive but also with an old world beauty.
Immigration is a good thing. It has renewed and revitalized everything it has touched. It is what made Amsterdam great in the 17th century (30% of the residents were born abroad and that number has stayed stable for centuries), and then Venice and then London in the 19th then New York City in the 20th century. Human history is migration. Migration is in our DNA.
A bit of my own history reflects this.
Only a few generations ago, my great-great-grandparents, Iberian Jews moved from Europe to Mexico probably for the usual reasons Jews are on the move. This was on my mother's side. My paternal grandparents, though, found life so difficult in Mexico that they moved to the USA - a growing country desperate for labor - in the early 20th century. The border was porous, as borders used to be. I grew up in California, married a European and now find myself living here in Amsterdam.
There's an old synagogue here in town. In one room, you can see plaques with the names of many Amsterdam residents from hundreds of years ago. It is not hard to find a 'Pimentel' among the names. That's the surname of my maternal great-grandfather too. Pimentel. These Pimentels probably came from the same place. They just fled in different directions. This has been part of a process going on not just for centuries but for millenia.
posted by vacapinta at 1:48 AM on May 19, 2023 [37 favorites]
I'm an American immigrant to the UK (now dual citizen) and specifically to Wales. I think the linked article was specifically about the "cosmopolitan class" although it was messy in phrasing and definition, whereas the discussion here seems to be less specific.
I firmly believe that there is nothing wrong with being an immigrant, and that if anything a certain level of immigration is generally a good thing for many many reasons. What's bad is being a colonist, and the "cosmopolitan class" behaviour described in the article is basically "colonization-lite". And it's not so hard to not do that, if you have some self awareness. I agree with those who have commented that identifying as an "expat" is a Very Bad Sign.
My personal rules for being an immigrant rather than a colonist include:
1) Assume that the people indigenous to this place are the ones who know best how to live here, and follow their lead as much as possible. Allow this place to change me. Be a good neighbour.
2) Do my best to learn the language and use it as much as I can. Never behave as if the people around me have a responsibility to use my first language just because I am there. Always be grateful for their kindness when they speak my first language to help me.
3) Invest my energy in community with local groups that are primarily indigenous and indigenous-led, not groups that are basically incomer enclaves, no matter how welcoming they might be to me (and they are often very welcoming to new incomers, but they are a trap).
4) Act in allegiance to my new home. Pay my taxes. Vote. Defer to indigenous leadership in what I support politically and financially. Offer myself to my new home with a whole heart.
5) Push back on incomers who belittle or disrespect indigenous ways of doing things, and also on idealistic incomers who are hatching schemes for new and better ways of doing things here, rather than learning about and supporting indigenous initiatives.
posted by Rhedyn at 1:55 AM on May 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
I firmly believe that there is nothing wrong with being an immigrant, and that if anything a certain level of immigration is generally a good thing for many many reasons. What's bad is being a colonist, and the "cosmopolitan class" behaviour described in the article is basically "colonization-lite". And it's not so hard to not do that, if you have some self awareness. I agree with those who have commented that identifying as an "expat" is a Very Bad Sign.
My personal rules for being an immigrant rather than a colonist include:
1) Assume that the people indigenous to this place are the ones who know best how to live here, and follow their lead as much as possible. Allow this place to change me. Be a good neighbour.
2) Do my best to learn the language and use it as much as I can. Never behave as if the people around me have a responsibility to use my first language just because I am there. Always be grateful for their kindness when they speak my first language to help me.
3) Invest my energy in community with local groups that are primarily indigenous and indigenous-led, not groups that are basically incomer enclaves, no matter how welcoming they might be to me (and they are often very welcoming to new incomers, but they are a trap).
4) Act in allegiance to my new home. Pay my taxes. Vote. Defer to indigenous leadership in what I support politically and financially. Offer myself to my new home with a whole heart.
5) Push back on incomers who belittle or disrespect indigenous ways of doing things, and also on idealistic incomers who are hatching schemes for new and better ways of doing things here, rather than learning about and supporting indigenous initiatives.
posted by Rhedyn at 1:55 AM on May 19, 2023 [20 favorites]
I don't know if we can blamed for what we were subjected to by our families. Does any TCK really have the choice to go back 'home'?
I can certainly take the blame for some of the fucked up attitudes and opinions I had in the past (and may still have, though I hope not!) with respect to the place I was living, which were very much borne of a colonial mindset.
posted by Dysk at 2:21 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can certainly take the blame for some of the fucked up attitudes and opinions I had in the past (and may still have, though I hope not!) with respect to the place I was living, which were very much borne of a colonial mindset.
posted by Dysk at 2:21 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I will never, ever get over the desire to ferret out original sin. Religion, ethnicity, nation or origin—it doesn’t matter. Some people will always look for reasons to figure out why another person is inherently wrong, from birth or as far back as the wrongness can be pushed.
Anyhoo, thank you for posting, chavenet. I enjoy reading about expat communities & literature, and about how people think about migration.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:27 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Anyhoo, thank you for posting, chavenet. I enjoy reading about expat communities & literature, and about how people think about migration.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:27 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
cupcakeninja, I try to listen to indigenous perspectives as much as possible, wherever I can find them, and it is overwhelmingly the case that what I see them arguing for is for people to pay attention to how they are living and behaving now in the place where they are, especially with regard to the indigenous culture of that place. Focus on "original sin" questions of where you were born and whether your ancestors acted justly in coming to that place is a toxic distraction from questioning whether you, right now, are behaving in solidarity with the indigenous community of the place you are in or with a colonizing community, and whether and how you could choose to change your behaviour.
posted by Rhedyn at 3:57 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 3:57 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
I can understand where you are coming from on this, Rhedyn. A lot of my time over the last few years has been spent on learning about and working for initiatives tied to Indigenous communities where I live. It’s been educational in all sorts of ways, including watching ups and downs of progress toward inclusion and reparations (such as can be had in a fundamentally settler colonist nation). And, yes, there’s been a lot of exactly what you talk about, including a state-level attempt here to define Native Americans as the “first immigrants” in standards of learning (SOLs) this area—which has been maybe-defeated, but TBD.
That said, while I think your claim is politically accurate, it is arguing past or ignoring any truth to the idea that primates engage in various group behaviors around community, from inclusion to exclusion. I think it’s the evolutionary influence that comes first, and the justifications (politics, economics, religion, whatever) come second. I think the former drives the latter, though it can be channeled to more noble ends.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:09 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
That said, while I think your claim is politically accurate, it is arguing past or ignoring any truth to the idea that primates engage in various group behaviors around community, from inclusion to exclusion. I think it’s the evolutionary influence that comes first, and the justifications (politics, economics, religion, whatever) come second. I think the former drives the latter, though it can be channeled to more noble ends.
posted by cupcakeninja at 4:09 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
cupcakeninja I certainly agree that underlying everything we are all primates with primate behaviours, and that the feelings and behaviour of groups and individuals within those groups will be many and varied, although that is kind of a nature/nurture question that is hard to ever resolve since there is always nurture in the mix. And the situation in the USA is especially complex for numerous reasons, including but far from limited to stolen people on stolen land. But in my personal experience, people's reactions to me as an immigrant in various parts of the UK have been many and varied, but they have always been easily understandable in context of local history and culture stemming from colonisation and empire -- I've never felt I was dealing with a more fundamental primate-group reaction.
Some of my perspective on this is informed by being a farmer and keeping flock animals who have strong (but flexible and varied) in group/out group behaviours. So I do expect such behaviours to always be part of the mix, but not as fundamentally or dominantly as it sounds like you do.
posted by Rhedyn at 4:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some of my perspective on this is informed by being a farmer and keeping flock animals who have strong (but flexible and varied) in group/out group behaviours. So I do expect such behaviours to always be part of the mix, but not as fundamentally or dominantly as it sounds like you do.
posted by Rhedyn at 4:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I appreciate the note that it's always good to try to learn and speak the local language.
In my experience as a person of colour, I find I get much better treatment when I make it obvious that I'm an English language speaker with native fluency, as opposed to a 'general foreigner' who has a halting grasp of the local tongue. It seems that locals give me much more respect when they perceive me as a visitor from the West as opposed to a migrant who's trying to pick up the local language. Similar dynamic when I'm with my white partner as opposed to on my own. On my own, I definitely get better treatment when I play up my 'Western-ness'.
posted by sid at 5:47 AM on May 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
In my experience as a person of colour, I find I get much better treatment when I make it obvious that I'm an English language speaker with native fluency, as opposed to a 'general foreigner' who has a halting grasp of the local tongue. It seems that locals give me much more respect when they perceive me as a visitor from the West as opposed to a migrant who's trying to pick up the local language. Similar dynamic when I'm with my white partner as opposed to on my own. On my own, I definitely get better treatment when I play up my 'Western-ness'.
posted by sid at 5:47 AM on May 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah like how American or British Chinese people here get better treatment here (in Southeast Asia, in a country with a significant Chinese local population at that) once it's clear they're not "mainlanders". Ditto for South Asians to a large extent but not in the same way, as creatrixtiara can attest. The Western identity has a lot of value, and in this instance provides a protective layer. And economic advantage. The economics of it, and with it political protection, does indeed make or break one's first impression from being an expat or an immigrant. The class under discussion is the insulated kind.
posted by cendawanita at 5:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gentrification is a plague whether the gentrifiers come from across town or across the ocean.
The primary harm is to the cities turned into amusement parks for the invaders, with a few locals kept on to run the rides (at minimum wage, of course).
A very secondary collateral damage is to genuine US emigrants, as these entitled assholes provide fuel for our politicians to score points passing ineffective "anti-offshore tax evasion laws" instead of addressing the root issues. The real effect is that middle-class US emigrants are locked out of accessing local pensions or home and small business ownership unless they can spend thousands a year on US tax prep/consulting. Reform is near-impossible, because all Americans overseas are painted with the same nasty brush.
Sorry for riding my highly privileged hobby horse in a thread that's not about me. I'm fully aware that my problems are a drop in the bucket compared to those of people displaced and exploited by this neo-colonial bullshit. But I'm bitter as hell that I've got to choose between staying financially independent of my husband and staying a US citizen, just because I happened to fall in love with someone with a different passport.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 6:09 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
The primary harm is to the cities turned into amusement parks for the invaders, with a few locals kept on to run the rides (at minimum wage, of course).
A very secondary collateral damage is to genuine US emigrants, as these entitled assholes provide fuel for our politicians to score points passing ineffective "anti-offshore tax evasion laws" instead of addressing the root issues. The real effect is that middle-class US emigrants are locked out of accessing local pensions or home and small business ownership unless they can spend thousands a year on US tax prep/consulting. Reform is near-impossible, because all Americans overseas are painted with the same nasty brush.
Sorry for riding my highly privileged hobby horse in a thread that's not about me. I'm fully aware that my problems are a drop in the bucket compared to those of people displaced and exploited by this neo-colonial bullshit. But I'm bitter as hell that I've got to choose between staying financially independent of my husband and staying a US citizen, just because I happened to fall in love with someone with a different passport.
posted by nanny's striped stocking at 6:09 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyway for reasons, my yt algorithms feed me a lot of content around foreigners reacting to Southeast Asia. Here's one channel, the Nomad Capitalist. As of today the recent videos are:
- Is Mexico Safer Than The US?
- How to Save $280k with Second Citizenship (RL example)
- The Rare European Citizenship Nobody Understands
- There's no recession here
- Dual Citizens Banned From The US?
- My $301 Hospital Visit (screen blurb: "medical tourism")
- The Easiest Countries to Immigrate To
- The Little Known Greek Tax Loophole
- The Best Value Place in the World
yadda yadda
And "how much does it cost to live in___" videos are abound. This is a Bali one. Just listen to the language.
posted by cendawanita at 6:10 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
- Is Mexico Safer Than The US?
- How to Save $280k with Second Citizenship (RL example)
- The Rare European Citizenship Nobody Understands
- There's no recession here
- Dual Citizens Banned From The US?
- My $301 Hospital Visit (screen blurb: "medical tourism")
- The Easiest Countries to Immigrate To
- The Little Known Greek Tax Loophole
- The Best Value Place in the World
yadda yadda
And "how much does it cost to live in___" videos are abound. This is a Bali one. Just listen to the language.
posted by cendawanita at 6:10 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
And for what it's worth the couple in the article lives in Philadelphia. Which is one of the cities where people are perpetually telling those complaining SF and NYC folks to go. But it's also too expensive now, because too many of them did.
According to the latest census estimates, Philadelphia lost over 22,000 in population over the past year, numbers-wise the 3rd largest decline behind NYC and Chicago. They also just had a mayoral election, and only 75,000 people voted out of a city population of 1.5 million. That's terrible.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:24 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
According to the latest census estimates, Philadelphia lost over 22,000 in population over the past year, numbers-wise the 3rd largest decline behind NYC and Chicago. They also just had a mayoral election, and only 75,000 people voted out of a city population of 1.5 million. That's terrible.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:24 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Apologies, I should obviously have assumed the author was lying when she said they were getting squeezed by the Philadelphia housing market? And whether or not as a whole Philadelphia is gaining population all I know is that when I looked at rentals there last year, it simply wasn't going to math out, moving from more-expensive-every-day Chicago. Ten or fifteen years ago, when last I looked, it was substantially more affordable--but remote work wasn't a thing, then.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 7:30 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Parts of Spain as an escape are utterly dominated by British or Scandinavian expats.
These people are visible (obnoxiously so). The systems that support local elites are much less so. It would not even be possible, for example, for a small percentage of modestly wealthy foreigners to distort the labor market if the labor market was built to protect the working class. It's not. The foreigners didn't build it, so...why is that?
I can look out my window right now and see several of the monuments to anonymous foreign money laundering through ultra-high-end residential real estate that, in the context of NYC's homelessness problem, are truly grotesque, but, even though in this case we are talking about real wealth, they are still largely just taking advantage of local conditions created by us to funnel wealth upwards, you know?
posted by praemunire at 7:31 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
These people are visible (obnoxiously so). The systems that support local elites are much less so. It would not even be possible, for example, for a small percentage of modestly wealthy foreigners to distort the labor market if the labor market was built to protect the working class. It's not. The foreigners didn't build it, so...why is that?
I can look out my window right now and see several of the monuments to anonymous foreign money laundering through ultra-high-end residential real estate that, in the context of NYC's homelessness problem, are truly grotesque, but, even though in this case we are talking about real wealth, they are still largely just taking advantage of local conditions created by us to funnel wealth upwards, you know?
posted by praemunire at 7:31 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Camping on to what vacapinta is saying - while the colonists are a problem, they are often being used to distract from more impactful problems, which are income inequality and the financialization of housing. These are particular problems in Mexico City, but not just there.
Generally speaking, gringos moving to Mexico has been a thing for a century if not longer. I worked for a company that handled international insurance for expats and travelers, and Mexico was always, always number one on the list. There are statistics to back that the number of Americans living in Mexico is increasing, but it's not a sudden sharp change - it's been on the rise for 30+ years. Proportionally, Americans make up a smaller slice of Mexico's immigrants than they did even 7 years ago. And it's complicated by the fact that 44% of those Americans are children – children of Mexicans who lived in the USA and repatriated (either by choice or due to deportation). It could be that remote workers aren't getting insurance and are thus invisible. It could be that more expats are choosing CDMX. But as this article shows, the factors are a lot more complicated and the colonizers were more the result of gentrification than the trigger for it.
posted by rednikki at 7:44 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Generally speaking, gringos moving to Mexico has been a thing for a century if not longer. I worked for a company that handled international insurance for expats and travelers, and Mexico was always, always number one on the list. There are statistics to back that the number of Americans living in Mexico is increasing, but it's not a sudden sharp change - it's been on the rise for 30+ years. Proportionally, Americans make up a smaller slice of Mexico's immigrants than they did even 7 years ago. And it's complicated by the fact that 44% of those Americans are children – children of Mexicans who lived in the USA and repatriated (either by choice or due to deportation). It could be that remote workers aren't getting insurance and are thus invisible. It could be that more expats are choosing CDMX. But as this article shows, the factors are a lot more complicated and the colonizers were more the result of gentrification than the trigger for it.
posted by rednikki at 7:44 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm realizing the above may be taken to mean I'm saying there's no such thing as shitty colonist behavior. That's not the case - there's lots of remote work/digital nomad types who live in a digital nomad bubble. It's supported by digital nomad housing designed to keep the nomads from having to interact with the locals or become part of the local community. (Zadar Valley in Croatia is probably the most famous, but we definitely saw a lite version of this on Koh Lanta in Thailand.)
However, this writer just has some things that are not supported by facts. "There is a recognizable cycle to cities that attract people who refer to themselves as expats instead of immigrants." What, you mean London? New York City ("after the AIDS crisis" WTF)? Los Angeles? Sydney? Auckland? Paris? Writer clearly has an axe to grind and has climbed on the "NONE OF YOU are the RIGHT TYPE of EXPAT!" horse.
posted by rednikki at 7:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
However, this writer just has some things that are not supported by facts. "There is a recognizable cycle to cities that attract people who refer to themselves as expats instead of immigrants." What, you mean London? New York City ("after the AIDS crisis" WTF)? Los Angeles? Sydney? Auckland? Paris? Writer clearly has an axe to grind and has climbed on the "NONE OF YOU are the RIGHT TYPE of EXPAT!" horse.
posted by rednikki at 7:54 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
With regards to the problem of gentrification, from where I'm sitting, I don't really see a solution other than eliminating private property. Seriously asking - are there jurisdictions that have dealt with this without going to full-on socialism?
posted by sid at 7:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by sid at 7:58 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Framing housing crises and gentrification as matters of personal virtue and consumer choice is peak liberal bullshit that seems designed in a lab to miss the point and serves primarily to exculpate the author.
posted by Reyturner at 8:04 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Reyturner at 8:04 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
It would not even be possible, for example, for a small percentage of modestly wealthy foreigners to distort the labor market if the labor market was built to protect the working class.
I'm not sure why that matters? I mean, yeah, elites everywhere tend to protect elite interests.
How does that square with the number of state governments who have chosen to court digital nomad/wealthy retiree money by making it easier for those categories to get visas/residencies, provided they have ample money? Sure, it's political elites making that decision, but they aren't making it in a vacuum - they're responding to a palpable demand from foreigners. (I'm also confused how you can think wealthy foreigners are not a problem, but upthread also told wealthy people to stay out of Detroit?)
And the issue isn't just labor markets for distortions in governance - in who the government is beholden or seeks to serve. Take the example from the article of Medellín, where tourists/nomads/etc. have increased the property values in the central city, and pushed working class people to the periphery where they are more likely to experience a deadly mud slide. So you see foreigners having zero culpability in this economic distortion because the state didn't step in to stop it? What about various Mexico beach towns that have become completely unrecognizable in a matter of years because enough influencers posted videos like those linked to by cendawanita, and it's not the local population that profits but other foreigners who bought up/built STRs? I don't fault much individual tourists who just spend a few days in these places - but the people making careers off this? I'm not sure being critical of them is exactly "peak liberal bullshit" but believe what you like I guess.
I dunno, I think maybe the expat/immigrant tangent is confusing things - I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing against migration (whether the people involved call themselves expats or immigrants) as long as those people are contributing in some way to the new community they've joined.
Tangentially, I have long found curious the large overlap between people whose politics support First Nations sovereignty (or are, at least intellectually against colonialism -old or new) yet get testy when working/middle class people in other countries tell them to please stop distorting their local economy with their currency.
I don't really see a solution other than eliminating private property. Seriously asking - are there jurisdictions that have dealt with this without going to full-on socialism?
I mean, NYC used to have serious rent control. I'm personally not anti property, but I do think there needs to be regulations on just how much money one can passively make from it. This NYTimes article had this eye-popping statistic: "The average price of a U.S. house has risen about 500 percent since 1983." Which is even more insane when you consider some housing markets, have not experienced that sort of growth, meaning some places have grown much more than that - I'm not sure how one manages to avoid high inequality under these circumstances.
posted by coffeecat at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure why that matters? I mean, yeah, elites everywhere tend to protect elite interests.
How does that square with the number of state governments who have chosen to court digital nomad/wealthy retiree money by making it easier for those categories to get visas/residencies, provided they have ample money? Sure, it's political elites making that decision, but they aren't making it in a vacuum - they're responding to a palpable demand from foreigners. (I'm also confused how you can think wealthy foreigners are not a problem, but upthread also told wealthy people to stay out of Detroit?)
And the issue isn't just labor markets for distortions in governance - in who the government is beholden or seeks to serve. Take the example from the article of Medellín, where tourists/nomads/etc. have increased the property values in the central city, and pushed working class people to the periphery where they are more likely to experience a deadly mud slide. So you see foreigners having zero culpability in this economic distortion because the state didn't step in to stop it? What about various Mexico beach towns that have become completely unrecognizable in a matter of years because enough influencers posted videos like those linked to by cendawanita, and it's not the local population that profits but other foreigners who bought up/built STRs? I don't fault much individual tourists who just spend a few days in these places - but the people making careers off this? I'm not sure being critical of them is exactly "peak liberal bullshit" but believe what you like I guess.
I dunno, I think maybe the expat/immigrant tangent is confusing things - I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing against migration (whether the people involved call themselves expats or immigrants) as long as those people are contributing in some way to the new community they've joined.
Tangentially, I have long found curious the large overlap between people whose politics support First Nations sovereignty (or are, at least intellectually against colonialism -old or new) yet get testy when working/middle class people in other countries tell them to please stop distorting their local economy with their currency.
I don't really see a solution other than eliminating private property. Seriously asking - are there jurisdictions that have dealt with this without going to full-on socialism?
I mean, NYC used to have serious rent control. I'm personally not anti property, but I do think there needs to be regulations on just how much money one can passively make from it. This NYTimes article had this eye-popping statistic: "The average price of a U.S. house has risen about 500 percent since 1983." Which is even more insane when you consider some housing markets, have not experienced that sort of growth, meaning some places have grown much more than that - I'm not sure how one manages to avoid high inequality under these circumstances.
posted by coffeecat at 9:00 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Following on coffeecat, the UK used to have much much more social housing, which I don't think of as socialism per se but seems like it was a good way to keep affordable housing going within communities. As I understand it, Margaret Thatcher made dismantling that one of her pet projects, using the rhetoric that people should be able to own their homes. Which seems like an echo of how the USA pushed for tribal land to be divided into individually owned parcels, after which they could be sold and lost. So I support my taxes going to increasing social housing stock.
posted by Rhedyn at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Rhedyn at 9:14 AM on May 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
They also just had a mayoral election, and only 75,000 people voted out of a city population of 1.5 million. That's terrible.
276,122 people voted in the Philadelphia primary. Still not great - only 30% of registered Democrats (total number 770,000) voted - but not quite as dire. And we elected the first Black woman ever to run for mayor on the Democrat ticket, which is something to celebrate.
And, yes, Philly has definitely gotten more expensive - houses in particular have suffered from the same upward price swing as every other metro during the pandemic. But we're building lots of new housing. And when looking for apartments in Philly, it is extremely seasonal because of all of the educational institutions.
There are presently 456 homes for sale for $150k or less in the general Philadelphia area. Compare that to 22 in Chicago, or 10 in Pittsburgh. And, no link required for this one, 0 in Brooklyn or San Francisco. Our Land Bank is also sitting on a ton of property, both vacant lots and dilapidated buildings, that are housing waiting to happen.
I didn't mean to imply that people can't or shouldn't move, or that anyone who moves is a bad person. I have Feelings about the wealthy expat community, obviously.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:40 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
276,122 people voted in the Philadelphia primary. Still not great - only 30% of registered Democrats (total number 770,000) voted - but not quite as dire. And we elected the first Black woman ever to run for mayor on the Democrat ticket, which is something to celebrate.
And, yes, Philly has definitely gotten more expensive - houses in particular have suffered from the same upward price swing as every other metro during the pandemic. But we're building lots of new housing. And when looking for apartments in Philly, it is extremely seasonal because of all of the educational institutions.
There are presently 456 homes for sale for $150k or less in the general Philadelphia area. Compare that to 22 in Chicago, or 10 in Pittsburgh. And, no link required for this one, 0 in Brooklyn or San Francisco. Our Land Bank is also sitting on a ton of property, both vacant lots and dilapidated buildings, that are housing waiting to happen.
I didn't mean to imply that people can't or shouldn't move, or that anyone who moves is a bad person. I have Feelings about the wealthy expat community, obviously.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:40 AM on May 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sorry, my links were limited to townhomes. There are 730 homes/townhomes in Philadelphia for sale at $150k or less, 378 in Chicago and 371 in Pittsburgh.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:45 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:45 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
However, this writer just has some things that are not supported by facts. "There is a recognizable cycle to cities that attract people who refer to themselves as expats instead of immigrants." What, you mean London? New York City ("after the AIDS crisis" WTF)? Los Angeles? Sydney? Auckland? Paris? Writer clearly has an axe to grind and has climbed on the "NONE OF YOU are the RIGHT TYPE of EXPAT!" horse.
That sentence is clearly meaning to use "cities" for "cities in developing countries" given the overall thrust of the article, and in that sense is obviously correct.
posted by mightygodking at 9:45 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
That sentence is clearly meaning to use "cities" for "cities in developing countries" given the overall thrust of the article, and in that sense is obviously correct.
posted by mightygodking at 9:45 AM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
My first thoughts when considering moving abroad are, in no particular order and overlapping quite a bit:
How will I contribute to their economy or society?
Is there something awesome and interesting that I might not have been able to explore within myself artistically that might be appreciated there?
Do they “want me”? I don’t want to feel like I do here in the US anymore. I don’t align with SO MANY of the people around me, and I’m sure these other locals do NOT need a neurospicy feminist past childbearing years, unless they enjoy and appreciate the level of human rights activism, hospitality, and engagement that I would practice in my home country, if I didn’t grow up in the hellscape bible belt of the third layer of hell and got burnt out.
Do they have corruption that I cannot tolerate? I have a tiny little voice here in the US (and it’s growing) and is it going to actually fulfill or heal me in any way to be screaming it from a much farther distance?
And yes, I realize how privileged I am. Trust me, it took years of therapy for me to love myself enough to even consider this option.
posted by lextex at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
How will I contribute to their economy or society?
Is there something awesome and interesting that I might not have been able to explore within myself artistically that might be appreciated there?
Do they “want me”? I don’t want to feel like I do here in the US anymore. I don’t align with SO MANY of the people around me, and I’m sure these other locals do NOT need a neurospicy feminist past childbearing years, unless they enjoy and appreciate the level of human rights activism, hospitality, and engagement that I would practice in my home country, if I didn’t grow up in the hellscape bible belt of the third layer of hell and got burnt out.
Do they have corruption that I cannot tolerate? I have a tiny little voice here in the US (and it’s growing) and is it going to actually fulfill or heal me in any way to be screaming it from a much farther distance?
And yes, I realize how privileged I am. Trust me, it took years of therapy for me to love myself enough to even consider this option.
posted by lextex at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
....Do they “want me”?
Your list just described the process to where housing is constructed in the US, which leads to gentrification, and any person who thinks more than a bit deeply about it would realize that it's basically impossible at the population-level to make those distinctions, but a small group of really loud people will make them for you. Also, they are unranked, so some random person gets to pick their favorite one to judge you based on their predetermined ideas.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Your list just described the process to where housing is constructed in the US, which leads to gentrification, and any person who thinks more than a bit deeply about it would realize that it's basically impossible at the population-level to make those distinctions, but a small group of really loud people will make them for you. Also, they are unranked, so some random person gets to pick their favorite one to judge you based on their predetermined ideas.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:46 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure why that matters? I mean, yeah, elites everywhere tend to protect elite interests.
Yes, which means that the Bad Expats generally aren't "exporting" exploitation. They're working to pick up some marginal gains from the exploitative systems already in place, some of which will trace back to the country's embeddedness in the global economy, but frankly a lot of which will have antedated the modern era, if perhaps with a somewhat different group of people on top. And, no, it's not somehow acceptable if they're local. Colony vs. empire should not be ignored as a dynamic, but (as with the recent discussion about the name for Turkey) it often doesn't get you across the finish line analytically.
upthread also told wealthy people to stay out of Detroit
No, I told people with shitty attitudes about the city to stay out. I was trying to be relatively nice instead of going into detail about how nasty it is to be referring to a majority Black city of several hundred thousand people which is a long-time victim of white supremacy politics as not being "developed."
And in Detroit, the gentrification is a result of widespread systematic racism scooping the city's economic substance out until the land was marginal enough to be re-exploited. Am I going to side-eye the guy who got a beautiful Craftsman for pennies on the dollar and then doesn't want to pay the local people doing the rehab right? Hell, yes. But he's got effectively zero power as opposed to what Reagan and Engler had, or what the banks had in 2007, or even what the city has in the present day with the water bill foreclosures, and he wouldn't be there without them.
posted by praemunire at 11:52 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, which means that the Bad Expats generally aren't "exporting" exploitation. They're working to pick up some marginal gains from the exploitative systems already in place, some of which will trace back to the country's embeddedness in the global economy, but frankly a lot of which will have antedated the modern era, if perhaps with a somewhat different group of people on top. And, no, it's not somehow acceptable if they're local. Colony vs. empire should not be ignored as a dynamic, but (as with the recent discussion about the name for Turkey) it often doesn't get you across the finish line analytically.
upthread also told wealthy people to stay out of Detroit
No, I told people with shitty attitudes about the city to stay out. I was trying to be relatively nice instead of going into detail about how nasty it is to be referring to a majority Black city of several hundred thousand people which is a long-time victim of white supremacy politics as not being "developed."
And in Detroit, the gentrification is a result of widespread systematic racism scooping the city's economic substance out until the land was marginal enough to be re-exploited. Am I going to side-eye the guy who got a beautiful Craftsman for pennies on the dollar and then doesn't want to pay the local people doing the rehab right? Hell, yes. But he's got effectively zero power as opposed to what Reagan and Engler had, or what the banks had in 2007, or even what the city has in the present day with the water bill foreclosures, and he wouldn't be there without them.
posted by praemunire at 11:52 AM on May 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, which means that the Bad Expats generally aren't "exporting" exploitation.
I don't see the author (or others in the thread) to be suggesting that - and certainly nobody is saying locally grown exploitation is cool. But just like I still think it's worth doing what I can to reduce my carbon footprint and put pressure on those with power to do more, I think it's worth grappling with whether my travel consumption is amplifying new harmful trends/gentrification, rather than just ignoring it. The author never says tourism/expats are equivalent to multinationals in terms of impact or scale - just that sometimes they operate with a similar logic.
I referenced your line about Detroit because I was confused when you view wanting to respect communities as being "low-key into nationalism and disciplining workers" vs. when you see some value in it. Your argument about Detroit seems more or less what the author is advocating, so I'm not sure what in the article you're arguing against.
posted by coffeecat at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't see the author (or others in the thread) to be suggesting that - and certainly nobody is saying locally grown exploitation is cool. But just like I still think it's worth doing what I can to reduce my carbon footprint and put pressure on those with power to do more, I think it's worth grappling with whether my travel consumption is amplifying new harmful trends/gentrification, rather than just ignoring it. The author never says tourism/expats are equivalent to multinationals in terms of impact or scale - just that sometimes they operate with a similar logic.
I referenced your line about Detroit because I was confused when you view wanting to respect communities as being "low-key into nationalism and disciplining workers" vs. when you see some value in it. Your argument about Detroit seems more or less what the author is advocating, so I'm not sure what in the article you're arguing against.
posted by coffeecat at 1:33 PM on May 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
I have a trans friend currently in Florida. She's making decisions about where to leave to, and the portions of the US that qualify are very expensive to live in.
New Mexico is not expensive.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 2:42 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
New Mexico is not expensive.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 2:42 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
My first thoughts when considering moving abroad are, in no particular order and overlapping quite a bit:
Would you ask those questions if you moved to another city within your current country’s boundaries?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:55 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would you ask those questions if you moved to another city within your current country’s boundaries?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:55 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Should people also consider if they're contributing to gentrification when moving to a city, or is it too much to ask?
posted by Selena777 at 3:45 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 3:45 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Should people also consider if they're contributing to gentrification when moving to a city, or is it too much to ask?
I worried about it here in Mérida until someone pointed out that the number of foreigners moving in is completely dwarfed by the wealthy exodus from Mexico City. I would expect it's the same elsewhere -- if a city looks attractive to foreigners it's likely to look even more attractive to locals. So it's probably worth looking at the numbers, but unless you're in a major expat city you're probably just noise.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:47 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I worried about it here in Mérida until someone pointed out that the number of foreigners moving in is completely dwarfed by the wealthy exodus from Mexico City. I would expect it's the same elsewhere -- if a city looks attractive to foreigners it's likely to look even more attractive to locals. So it's probably worth looking at the numbers, but unless you're in a major expat city you're probably just noise.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:47 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
That sentence is clearly meaning to use "cities" for "cities in developing countries" given the overall thrust of the article...
I would believe that, except for the part where she specifically cited NYC and Paris.
posted by rednikki at 8:29 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would believe that, except for the part where she specifically cited NYC and Paris.
posted by rednikki at 8:29 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
I worried about it here in Mérida until someone pointed out that the number of foreigners moving in is completely dwarfed by the wealthy exodus from Mexico City. I would expect it's the same elsewhere -- if a city looks attractive to foreigners it's likely to look even more attractive to locals. So it's probably worth looking at the numbers, but unless you're in a major expat city you're probably just noise.
The people are affected are likely not looking at it and thinking "ah but he's okay, I'm only mad at the rich people from Mexico City pushing my prices up, not this guy, he's only part of a group that are a smaller proportion of the problem, and that makes it not a problem somehow."
Like, if the gentrification is fucked up, the gentrification is fucked up. The fact that a lot of the gentrifiers don't look like you doesn't matter much? If it was fucked up for you to be the nth American gentrifier, it's fucked up for you to be the nth gentrifier, even if you're the first American.
You might not think that the individual is responsible for their impact to that degree (which I disagree with, but it would make sense) but behaviour being problematic or not based on the nationality of the others doing it alongside you?
posted by Dysk at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The people are affected are likely not looking at it and thinking "ah but he's okay, I'm only mad at the rich people from Mexico City pushing my prices up, not this guy, he's only part of a group that are a smaller proportion of the problem, and that makes it not a problem somehow."
Like, if the gentrification is fucked up, the gentrification is fucked up. The fact that a lot of the gentrifiers don't look like you doesn't matter much? If it was fucked up for you to be the nth American gentrifier, it's fucked up for you to be the nth gentrifier, even if you're the first American.
You might not think that the individual is responsible for their impact to that degree (which I disagree with, but it would make sense) but behaviour being problematic or not based on the nationality of the others doing it alongside you?
posted by Dysk at 8:51 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
If the gentrification is fucked up, the gentrification is fucked up
Totally agreed and I have come to grips with my part in that. However, if the question being asked is "Are foreigners largely the reason for the gentrification of Mérida?" the answer is "No."
The reason that's important to me is that I have some small sway in attracting new foreigners to move here and I wouldn't do so if I thought it would substantially worsen the gentrification issue. As it is I don't mind tossing a few pebbles down after the avalanche is already rolling, especially if said pebbles are people who I think would thrive here and help others to thrive around them.
[people] are likely not looking at it and thinking [...]
150 million Americans think that Trump was sent by God and that codified trans-hate is A-OK. I think it's better to start with what's right to do, and worry about the crowd later.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:27 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Totally agreed and I have come to grips with my part in that. However, if the question being asked is "Are foreigners largely the reason for the gentrification of Mérida?" the answer is "No."
The reason that's important to me is that I have some small sway in attracting new foreigners to move here and I wouldn't do so if I thought it would substantially worsen the gentrification issue. As it is I don't mind tossing a few pebbles down after the avalanche is already rolling, especially if said pebbles are people who I think would thrive here and help others to thrive around them.
[people] are likely not looking at it and thinking [...]
150 million Americans think that Trump was sent by God and that codified trans-hate is A-OK. I think it's better to start with what's right to do, and worry about the crowd later.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:27 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, rewriting my statement about the people affected to one just about people does rather change the thing. The opinions of US voters on trans issues are an irrelevance when considering the legitimate concerns of other groups.
posted by Dysk at 9:42 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 9:42 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, rewriting my statement about the people affected to one just about people does rather change the thing
Huh. I guess I don’t agree with that. The point I was trying to make is that people, directly affected or not, are frequently off in the weeds. I don’t believe there is a wisdom to crowds under any circumstances.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:09 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Huh. I guess I don’t agree with that. The point I was trying to make is that people, directly affected or not, are frequently off in the weeds. I don’t believe there is a wisdom to crowds under any circumstances.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:09 PM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's less "the wisdom of crowds" and more "consider the impact of your actions". It's about the effect on people and communities, not merely opinions you can pre-emptively write off. 'Some people are bigots' does not make it fine to just shrug and go "fuck 'em" about everybody else.
posted by Dysk at 10:14 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 10:14 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The notion of "contributing to the local community" is difficult for me.
(A) it's used as the justification for really intense and punitive "skilled migrant" tests used by a lot of immigration systems that don't recognise the breadth of human experience (for example, the arts and creative industries don't tend to rank as "skills")
(B) it creates an expectation that you're only worthwhile as a human if you are a worker of some kind with an approved job
(C) the above factors lead into disabled people often being excluded from migration options because they're seen as a "drain on the healthcare system" (hell here in Australia families have been deported because their KID is autistic)
(D) there is a subtle ongoing xenophobia around "well you should really go back to your country and contribute to it there instead of taking up space here"
(E) a lot of us that WANT to contribute are hamstrung by bureaucracy (e.g. not being able to get jobs due to visas) or our contributions are not seen as welcome ("your halal food ia corrupting our country because SYARIAH LAW!")
(F) are the locals held to the same high standards for "contributions" or are they left off the hook while us migrants have to do most of the work?
What also irks me is "if you don't like it, go home", especially when it comes from white leftist types (it's dodgy enough when they call themselves "natives" without any notion of indigeniety!). So we can't speak up about the harms we face, or the difficulties we have? But you're allowed to because you're a """native"""?
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:59 PM on May 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
(A) it's used as the justification for really intense and punitive "skilled migrant" tests used by a lot of immigration systems that don't recognise the breadth of human experience (for example, the arts and creative industries don't tend to rank as "skills")
(B) it creates an expectation that you're only worthwhile as a human if you are a worker of some kind with an approved job
(C) the above factors lead into disabled people often being excluded from migration options because they're seen as a "drain on the healthcare system" (hell here in Australia families have been deported because their KID is autistic)
(D) there is a subtle ongoing xenophobia around "well you should really go back to your country and contribute to it there instead of taking up space here"
(E) a lot of us that WANT to contribute are hamstrung by bureaucracy (e.g. not being able to get jobs due to visas) or our contributions are not seen as welcome ("your halal food ia corrupting our country because SYARIAH LAW!")
(F) are the locals held to the same high standards for "contributions" or are they left off the hook while us migrants have to do most of the work?
What also irks me is "if you don't like it, go home", especially when it comes from white leftist types (it's dodgy enough when they call themselves "natives" without any notion of indigeniety!). So we can't speak up about the harms we face, or the difficulties we have? But you're allowed to because you're a """native"""?
posted by creatrixtiara at 11:59 PM on May 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
The notion of "contributing to the local community" is difficult for me.
I think there's a real difference between what it's good for you to aim to do for yourself, and what is acceptable for governments to require. But in any case, everyone who is part of the local community contributes to it automatically. People who move somewhere, and then hold themselves apart from the community already living there should probably question why they think it's the right move. What makes a place what it is, is not just the beauty of the surroundings or the cheapness of the goods and services, it is the people who make it their home.
Immigrants should both be shaped by their new surroundings, and shape the present and future culture. The size of that shaping is bound to be dependent on the number of immigrants from the same originating culture. I would not be without the changes that immigrants have brought and continue to bring to my home, and all the immigrants I know have said that their experiences of living here have changed them and I think that's as it should be.
posted by plonkee at 12:56 AM on May 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think there's a real difference between what it's good for you to aim to do for yourself, and what is acceptable for governments to require. But in any case, everyone who is part of the local community contributes to it automatically. People who move somewhere, and then hold themselves apart from the community already living there should probably question why they think it's the right move. What makes a place what it is, is not just the beauty of the surroundings or the cheapness of the goods and services, it is the people who make it their home.
Immigrants should both be shaped by their new surroundings, and shape the present and future culture. The size of that shaping is bound to be dependent on the number of immigrants from the same originating culture. I would not be without the changes that immigrants have brought and continue to bring to my home, and all the immigrants I know have said that their experiences of living here have changed them and I think that's as it should be.
posted by plonkee at 12:56 AM on May 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Unless you believe everyone's existence should be dependent on some algorithmic determination of their potential economic and social value don't do this to immigrants.
It's how humans become monsters on a national scale.
posted by srboisvert at 1:31 AM on May 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's how humans become monsters on a national scale.
posted by srboisvert at 1:31 AM on May 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
I guess that I read this mostly as an expression of annoyance with a particular kind of American, for whom being cosmopolitan is a status marker that makes them superior to other Americans, and how irksome it is to have these people act like their mobility, which is rooted in privilege and often involving only superficial interaction with local communities, makes them better than her childhood neighbors in Kansas. She has encountered a lot of those people, because she's an American from a working-class background who has spent significant amounts of time living outside the US in a non-military capacity, and she finds them insufferable and obnoxious. And I'm sure she's mostly right about that, but I also think that's not exactly deep political analysis, and I feel like she's playing with fire a little bit in ways that she may not realize. She's right that upper-class Americans in Berlin glibly refer to Turkish immigrants to deflect criticism of their own behavior, but it's also true that some arguments that she's making about privileged Americans can and are also made about less-privileged migrants, in ways that she may be unintentionally reinforcing. (And distinctions between privileged and not-privileged are not always straightforward.) And I also just flinch at the juxtaposition of rootless cosmopolitans with the rooted people of small-town Kansas, because that's sometimes the language of fascism.
So anyway, what I would say is that discussions about migration (and probably everything else) need to take into account power. They mostly need to take into account the power of nation-states, which regulate mobility for their own interests. But also, it matters how much and what kinds of power potential migrants have, and it matters how much and what kinds of power local populations and governments have. But I'm not sure that she does that justice, since her purpose seems mostly to chastise some insufferable elitists. Her example of a good American living abroad is the painter Ethel Gilmour, who chose to live in Colombia when it was really dangerous, rather than moving there only when it was possible to benefit from the aftereffects of that trauma. But she paints Gilmour's good-American status as being a product of personal choice and doesn't ask any questions about the underlying power relations. And I fully believe that people are responsible for their choices, but I also don't think it's good analysis to talk about choices in the absence of considerations of structural power.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:16 AM on May 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
So anyway, what I would say is that discussions about migration (and probably everything else) need to take into account power. They mostly need to take into account the power of nation-states, which regulate mobility for their own interests. But also, it matters how much and what kinds of power potential migrants have, and it matters how much and what kinds of power local populations and governments have. But I'm not sure that she does that justice, since her purpose seems mostly to chastise some insufferable elitists. Her example of a good American living abroad is the painter Ethel Gilmour, who chose to live in Colombia when it was really dangerous, rather than moving there only when it was possible to benefit from the aftereffects of that trauma. But she paints Gilmour's good-American status as being a product of personal choice and doesn't ask any questions about the underlying power relations. And I fully believe that people are responsible for their choices, but I also don't think it's good analysis to talk about choices in the absence of considerations of structural power.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:16 AM on May 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
It's less "the wisdom of crowds" and more "consider the impact of your actions". It's about the effect on people and communities, not merely opinions you can pre-emptively write off. 'Some people are bigots' does not make it fine to just shrug and go "fuck 'em" about everybody else.
Understood and I’m not for writing off anyone’s opinions, but I am for automatically prioritizing the opinions of people with a larger picture first. People who have studied gentrification, who can demonstrate through case studies how it has been managed with the least harm throughout history, those people are my guiding light. I don’t see how anyone could possibly implement a solution without getting the community to put their stamp on it, but IMHO the “it” needs to come from someplace more informed than common sentiment.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 PM on May 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Understood and I’m not for writing off anyone’s opinions, but I am for automatically prioritizing the opinions of people with a larger picture first. People who have studied gentrification, who can demonstrate through case studies how it has been managed with the least harm throughout history, those people are my guiding light. I don’t see how anyone could possibly implement a solution without getting the community to put their stamp on it, but IMHO the “it” needs to come from someplace more informed than common sentiment.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:32 PM on May 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
People who move somewhere, and then hold themselves apart from the community already living there should probably question why they think it's the right move. What makes a place what it is, is not just the beauty of the surroundings or the cheapness of the goods and services, it is the people who make it their home.
Plenty of people stay isolated living in American suburbs. It’s a way of life.
Moving somewhere else and doing the same thing doesn’t seem like it would change much at all.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:38 PM on May 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Plenty of people stay isolated living in American suburbs. It’s a way of life.
Moving somewhere else and doing the same thing doesn’t seem like it would change much at all.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:38 PM on May 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Plenty of people stay isolated living in American suburbs. It’s a way of life.
Kind of ironic that if you want to spend an afternoon at a cafe with a table full of Americans, you have to go to Europe. Outdoor tables in the states mean lots of car traffic noise. And indoors you have Seattle cafe culture which pretty much means huddling by yourself with a laptop and some comfort food.
posted by ocschwar at 3:59 AM on May 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Kind of ironic that if you want to spend an afternoon at a cafe with a table full of Americans, you have to go to Europe. Outdoor tables in the states mean lots of car traffic noise. And indoors you have Seattle cafe culture which pretty much means huddling by yourself with a laptop and some comfort food.
posted by ocschwar at 3:59 AM on May 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Coincidentally, and also from the same city: When digital nomads come to town
The Semilla cafe and coworking space sits in the heart of the upscale Laureles neighborhood in the city of Medellín. It looks as if it were picked up in Silicon Valley and dropped into Colombia by a crane. Coders and digital marketers crowd the tables, drinking pour-over coffee and enjoying loaded avocado toast. Downstairs, in the coffee shop, a stylish woman with a ring light on her laptop chats with a client thousands of kilometers away. Upstairs, in the dedicated office space, an American wearing an Oculus Rift headset attends a meeting in the metaverse.
Most of the workers here are employed in the U.S., but relaxed post-pandemic office norms permit them to work from anywhere. This is the mobile, location-independent lifestyle of the digital nomad. The Semilla is their oasis.
(...) Within these cities, nomads cluster in safe and prosperous neighborhoods. Laureles, in Medellín, is a tranquil barrio with a university, clean streets, and middle-class inhabitants. But the income differential between the nomads and the Colombian professional class is immense. The result is runaway price inflation — rents in Laureles have skyrocketed, and restaurants cannot raise their prices fast enough. A one-bedroom in Medellín now rents for the “gringo price” of about $1,300 a month, in a country where the median monthly income is $300.
An influx of digital nomads into a neighborhood can distort the local economy. Seeking foreign cash, many cities invite this kind of visitor, but their arrival can skew the cost of living for residents.
(...)The digital nomads’ visits are transitory, but they leave neighborhoods permanently transformed. Today, there are streets in Medellín, as in Mexico City or Canggu, that look more like Bushwick — where English is more common than the local language, and where the streets are dotted with brightly painted coworking hubs and prissy restaurants serving international cuisine. The more nomads arrive, the more these locations begin to resemble one another. Building exteriors retain their historic character, but interiors converge to a sterile homogeneity of hotdesking, free charging outlets, affordable coffee, and Wi-Fi with purchase.
(...)Looking to move beyond the city’s notorious reputation, Medellín’s civic leaders have welcomed the nomads. Claudia Heredia, who heads the Medellín Convention and Visitors Bureau, said she hoped the nomads would stay, and invest. “The influx of foreign money ultimately benefits everyone,” she said. (...) While Medellín is surely beautiful, it is these patient, unglamorous investments in transport services and broadband that have made it an attractive destination for remote work. The downside is that digital nomads are driving up costs around the city. Restaurants have been especially affected; at the airport in Medellín, I met two American tech workers who were literally attempting to spend as much money on food as they could. “We ordered like, four desserts!” one said. “We couldn’t even break 90 bucks.”
Locals can’t keep pace with such decadence; even the head of the city’s tourism board was being priced out. “I used to go out to eat every Friday,” Heredia said. “Only at current prices, I can’t afford to.”
So of the various strands of international movement of humans, let's be clear, the one I'm responding to per TFA and in this one, aren't migrants or immigrants or those seeking asylum, even if any of that grouping necessarily must have also needed to utilize their respective privileges and advantages that consequently results in pricing out locals, as the case it must be when it's human movement that coheres with existing power structures instead of anything revolutionarily systemic (e.g. en-masse refugee resettlement programmes). There's a lot of back and forth above that either can't see which specific subtype being brought to fore, or won't. But I also do see there's a strand of the discussion I can never hope to grasp, amongst the Americans, so I am just taking in those comments.
posted by cendawanita at 9:19 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Semilla cafe and coworking space sits in the heart of the upscale Laureles neighborhood in the city of Medellín. It looks as if it were picked up in Silicon Valley and dropped into Colombia by a crane. Coders and digital marketers crowd the tables, drinking pour-over coffee and enjoying loaded avocado toast. Downstairs, in the coffee shop, a stylish woman with a ring light on her laptop chats with a client thousands of kilometers away. Upstairs, in the dedicated office space, an American wearing an Oculus Rift headset attends a meeting in the metaverse.
Most of the workers here are employed in the U.S., but relaxed post-pandemic office norms permit them to work from anywhere. This is the mobile, location-independent lifestyle of the digital nomad. The Semilla is their oasis.
(...) Within these cities, nomads cluster in safe and prosperous neighborhoods. Laureles, in Medellín, is a tranquil barrio with a university, clean streets, and middle-class inhabitants. But the income differential between the nomads and the Colombian professional class is immense. The result is runaway price inflation — rents in Laureles have skyrocketed, and restaurants cannot raise their prices fast enough. A one-bedroom in Medellín now rents for the “gringo price” of about $1,300 a month, in a country where the median monthly income is $300.
An influx of digital nomads into a neighborhood can distort the local economy. Seeking foreign cash, many cities invite this kind of visitor, but their arrival can skew the cost of living for residents.
(...)The digital nomads’ visits are transitory, but they leave neighborhoods permanently transformed. Today, there are streets in Medellín, as in Mexico City or Canggu, that look more like Bushwick — where English is more common than the local language, and where the streets are dotted with brightly painted coworking hubs and prissy restaurants serving international cuisine. The more nomads arrive, the more these locations begin to resemble one another. Building exteriors retain their historic character, but interiors converge to a sterile homogeneity of hotdesking, free charging outlets, affordable coffee, and Wi-Fi with purchase.
(...)Looking to move beyond the city’s notorious reputation, Medellín’s civic leaders have welcomed the nomads. Claudia Heredia, who heads the Medellín Convention and Visitors Bureau, said she hoped the nomads would stay, and invest. “The influx of foreign money ultimately benefits everyone,” she said. (...) While Medellín is surely beautiful, it is these patient, unglamorous investments in transport services and broadband that have made it an attractive destination for remote work. The downside is that digital nomads are driving up costs around the city. Restaurants have been especially affected; at the airport in Medellín, I met two American tech workers who were literally attempting to spend as much money on food as they could. “We ordered like, four desserts!” one said. “We couldn’t even break 90 bucks.”
Locals can’t keep pace with such decadence; even the head of the city’s tourism board was being priced out. “I used to go out to eat every Friday,” Heredia said. “Only at current prices, I can’t afford to.”
So of the various strands of international movement of humans, let's be clear, the one I'm responding to per TFA and in this one, aren't migrants or immigrants or those seeking asylum, even if any of that grouping necessarily must have also needed to utilize their respective privileges and advantages that consequently results in pricing out locals, as the case it must be when it's human movement that coheres with existing power structures instead of anything revolutionarily systemic (e.g. en-masse refugee resettlement programmes). There's a lot of back and forth above that either can't see which specific subtype being brought to fore, or won't. But I also do see there's a strand of the discussion I can never hope to grasp, amongst the Americans, so I am just taking in those comments.
posted by cendawanita at 9:19 AM on May 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
For the record, nothing in this world can ever cause me to lament the sight of restaurant workers striking it rich.
posted by ocschwar at 10:27 AM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 10:27 AM on May 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like these workers? Arturo Mares, the furniture store clerk in Roma Norte [Mexico City], said his livelihood had been threatened by the arrival of the nomads. “This neighborhood was already expensive and local salaries are just not enough,” he said. Mares said the influx of the nomads hadn’t equated to better wages. “As a waiter or a clerk, bosses and owners start increasing your quotas. You have to sell more and still be paid the same salaries,” he said.
posted by cendawanita at 8:10 PM on May 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:10 PM on May 23, 2023 [4 favorites]
One constant in every country is that them foreigners are ruining things for local folk.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:16 PM on May 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
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posted by joannemerriam at 11:23 AM on May 18, 2023 [27 favorites]