Just point and uh, focus

May 18, 2023 10:19 AM

Cash-free payment systems link up across Southeast Asia 'Adoption of QR payments is one thing, but being able to pay across country borders is another. While a Chinese tourist might be able to use an Alipay QR code at an accepting merchant in Japan or the U.S., the Southeast Asian network is a direct agreement between central bank systems.' We're talking about embedded links that takes you to direct bank transfers from one person's bank account to another, not a third-party solution or clearinghouse. What is QR code payments? (Wiki)
posted by cendawanita (18 comments total)

A couple of quick pun notes:

- Indonesia's QRIS is a pun on the keris/kris, an Malay Archipelago wavy blade weapon.

- Malaysia's DuitNow is a bilingual pun on the Malay word for money (duit) and the English "do it".
posted by cendawanita at 10:27 AM on May 18, 2023 [14 favorites]

One of the ongoing initiatives that's sort of referred to in the article I think is probably the one by Bank for International Settlement's Project Nexus:
In 2022, the team built a working prototype of Nexus and used it to connect the test systems of three established IPSs:

- The Eurozone's TARGET Instant Payment Settlement (TIPS) system, operated by Bank of Italy on behalf of the Eurosystem and overseen by the European Central Bank.

- Malaysia's Real-time Retail Payments Platform (RPP), operated by Payments Network Malaysia (PayNet) and overseen by Central Bank of Malaysia.

- Singapore's Fast and Secure Transfers (FAST) payment system, operated by Banking Computer Services (BCS) and overseen by the Monetary Authority of Singapore

With plans to connect to the other big three SEAsian economies.
posted by cendawanita at 10:40 AM on May 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

This is obviously a practical need for many; I just hope they build in adequate consumer protections, because most new systems being put into place nowadays...do not.
posted by praemunire at 10:53 AM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

I wonder what the security risks are. You just point your phone at a QR code and it could take your phone and your data pretty much anywhere, if you're not looking too closely.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:26 AM on May 18, 2023

Right now in terms of successful frauds* it still requires significant amounts of social engineering rather than technical, but I don't doubt a man-in-the-middle attack is still possible. Currently the safeguards come embedded in the fact the code needs to be scanned from your bank app or e-wallet, so it's just an 'easier' way to input the bank details, it just preloads the account number etc, but you still need to approve it. Kinda like Venmo, i guess? But it's all directly from your bank account. Here's a sample video.

*And because this is essentially digital cash, that's about the level of consumer protection you can get, which can be poor comfort. But essentially, if you have legal proof it's a fraudulent transaction banks can reverse it for you. This is exceptional though, IME since you did "agree" to the approving the transaction. Poor comfort I know.
posted by cendawanita at 11:38 AM on May 18, 2023

For a happy moment in time, I felt sure QR was headed to the dustbin of tech history. But, over the past couple of years, I’ve seen the damned things come roaring back everywhere, including, yes, restaurants and pubs that require you scan a QR to see a menu.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:26 PM on May 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

In China I've visited restaurants where the menu, ordering, and payment could only be done with QR codes (and wechat) - without a Chinese bank account you're out of luck. I've also seen street people b egging with QR codes. Particularly annoying is when the kid in front of you in line at the 7/11 insists on finishing up whatever social media they're involved in before they pay the server ....
posted by mbo at 5:11 PM on May 18, 2023

I wonder what the security risks are. You just point your phone at a QR code and it could take your phone and your data pretty much anywhere

My understanding is that conceptually QR codes are much safer because you're SENDING money to the address, while with traditional credit cards they're TAKING money from your card number account.

Eg, if your credit card gets stolen or cloned, anyone can use that data to extract more money from your account, which is how you wake up the next morning with thousands in fraudulent transactions.

While with QR codes, you aren't giving out any information about your account that anyone can use. It's the seller that is exposing their bank details to you for you to pay into, not you exposing your CC information to the seller to take money from.

QR codes seem so much more secure and efficient (just compare credit card merchant fees vs QR code fees) it's been mystifying how much China has embraced it while the rest of the world is only just now catching on 10 years later. I imagine market power and lobbying from the credit card industry might have kept it out of the West so far...
posted by xdvesper at 6:15 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

including, yes, restaurants and pubs that require you scan a QR to see a menu.

They definitely came up here in a big way thanks to COVID. At least there are still paper menus to refer to because that's hell on the eyes for small screens.

QR code as payment otoh feels more purposeful, or as entry tickets (just waved myself thru the till at the cinema last night, as per usual). The other thing worth mentioning per TFA is just from a practical societal adoption implication perspective, this makes a pretty solid demonstration of actual dedollarization if this genuinely takes off.
posted by cendawanita at 7:01 PM on May 18, 2023

QR codes are just such a basic part of life now and they are definitely easier than sharing links via text. There was recent story about someone sticking up fake QR codes outside a religious place implying they were donation links, which is still just social engineering.

Not taking cash blocks out people who can't get a digital identity if it's tied to bank accounts. Getting a bank account if you don't have paperwork or legal identity in a country is super hard. There are ways around it, but they're pretty grey.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:55 PM on May 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Getting a bank account if you don't have paperwork or legal identity in a country is super hard.

It can be bloody hard anyway. The first decade or so I lived in the UK, I tried to open a bank account no less than a half dozen times. Between being foreign, and having a fairly long name with some characters the UK banking system considers non standard (like a hyphen!) it fell through or failed every time.
posted by Dysk at 12:22 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

The good side here is that there is not a vampire in the middle of the transaction sucking out 2% fees.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:42 AM on May 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

I agree Dysk. I'm in Sweden which has an extremely popular version of this (Swish) that has almost entirely replaced cash. Unfortunately, it's only open to Swedish bank account holders, and getting a Swedish bank account as a foreigner is VERY hard. I eventually was able to get one, but only with the assistance of my employer.

Even worse is a local bank account is required for BankID - Sweden's ubiquitous identity-verification app used to sign literally every sort of legal document (and to log into many Swedish online services). I couldn't even get a SIM card till I had BankID which was fun - try living without phone service for a few weeks.

I have mixed feelings about this trend - it's convenient and safer but it really punishes immigrants and long-term visitors who cannot get into the system.
posted by photo guy at 8:43 AM on May 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

MobilePay in Denmark is similar - lots of smaller places use it exclusively now, and if you're unbanked or a tourist, you cannot interface with the system at all.
posted by Dysk at 9:04 AM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

Same in Norway. Vipps and BankID are a curse.

Even the former British ambassador to Norway had trouble closing his bank account because diplomats aren't allowed to have BankID.
posted by knapah at 3:54 PM on May 19, 2023

It would be nice if Interac e-Transfers were this easy. I mean, they aren't hard but this would be easier.
posted by Mitheral at 5:31 PM on May 19, 2023

conceptually QR codes are much safer because you're SENDING money to the address

I suppose that might be more likely if the site you are taken to is the real thing. Anyways, there was an interesting article in 2600 recently on hacking people's natural propensity to scan whatever bit of information is in front of them.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:36 PM on May 19, 2023

Even if you're not, worst case you're out what you intended to pay. With a debit card or credit card, worst case you're out your card limit, if not your entire account/credit limit because they get the information they need to keep charging the card. If you send someone a couple of dollars for a coffee, and the QR code is actually a scam, haha! then you only stand to lose that couple of dollars.
posted by Dysk at 8:58 PM on May 19, 2023 [1 favorite]