Just a tiny little brute
July 11, 2023 7:52 PM Subscribe
"I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake. I simply never do." There is now a trailer for Napoleon (Apple TV+, fall 2023). Ridley Scott directs. Joaquin Phoenix and Vanessa Kirby star. Dariusz Wolski does the cinematography.
Er... I'm a little bit underwhelmed by Joaquin's delivery - I mean, we don't really need the full, over the top, Ian Holm in Time Bandits Napoleon - but maybe less like a depressed New York accountant? (And holy shit, the song does nothing for me. But I guess that's trailers these days)
posted by misterbee at 8:27 PM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by misterbee at 8:27 PM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
It’s nice to see Ridley Scott kinda coming back around to “The Duellists” territory again.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:31 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 8:31 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Iam Holm was the best Napoleon.
posted by Catblack at 8:37 PM on July 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 8:37 PM on July 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
COUNTERPOINT Rod Steiger was the best Napoleon. 'I did not usurp the crown! I found it! In the gutter!'
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:52 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:52 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
If it’s got Joaquin in it, I’m there. The only person who’s ever gotten a genuinely bad performance out of him is the deeply talentless M. Night Shyamalan; I have no such concerns for Ridley Scott.
posted by holborne at 8:54 PM on July 11, 2023
posted by holborne at 8:54 PM on July 11, 2023
Yeah although I'm looking forward to this, Phoenix's Napoleon looks more bored than the lively, intense person he reportedly was. Apparently this spans pretty much his whole rise and fall, which seems overly ambitious for a single film to me... but I'll watch it!
But I'll also watch Waterloo, because that movie is GREAT. Fiasco da Gama is correct.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 9:00 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
But I'll also watch Waterloo, because that movie is GREAT. Fiasco da Gama is correct.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 9:00 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I too, am hoping for Duelist levels of pedantic uniform detail and cinematography. Some of the duel scenes from that earlier film looked like paintings. If only the accents weren’t so distracting! La!
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:11 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:11 PM on July 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
I like to consider myself a 'war nerd' but somehow wasn't exposed to Napoleon's wars until relatively recently.
The man couldn't lose! Heck, he even beat the Russians at Borodino ~6 weeks sooner in his campaign than the German panzers reached the same battlefield in 1941.
Napoleon did spring Lafayette from a rather horrible Austrian imprisonment, so that was good of him. Speaking of which, here is Lafayette's measure of Napoleon's career immediately after Waterloo:
The man couldn't lose! Heck, he even beat the Russians at Borodino ~6 weeks sooner in his campaign than the German panzers reached the same battlefield in 1941.
Napoleon did spring Lafayette from a rather horrible Austrian imprisonment, so that was good of him. Speaking of which, here is Lafayette's measure of Napoleon's career immediately after Waterloo:
Who shall dare to accuse the French nation of inconstancy to the Emperor Napoleon? That nation has followed his bloody footsteps through the sands of Egypt and through the wastes of Russia; over fifty fields of battle; in disaster as faithfully as victory; and it is for having thus devotedly followed him that we now mourn the blood of three millions of Frenchmen.posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:17 PM on July 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
The infantry square(s) I glimpsed in the trailer made me sad.
There's something magical in the evolution of European warfare from the wars of Frederick through Waterloo. Horrible of course, as all war is, but a balanced contest between sabres, cannon, and musket.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's something magical in the evolution of European warfare from the wars of Frederick through Waterloo. Horrible of course, as all war is, but a balanced contest between sabres, cannon, and musket.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:28 PM on July 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
1:07 See? It was like that when I got here.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 9:35 PM on July 11, 2023
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 9:35 PM on July 11, 2023
Looks great, but — Kubrick’s would have been miles above.
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:10 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Capt. Renault at 10:10 PM on July 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
I still think they should have cast Martin Weir.
[Never mind me, I'm off to watch Get Shorty yet again.]
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:17 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
[Never mind me, I'm off to watch Get Shorty yet again.]
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:17 PM on July 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am listening to the Age of Napoleon podcast and learning a lot. I don’t have Apple+. Do shows escape from there?
I
posted by drowsy at 11:17 PM on July 11, 2023
I
posted by drowsy at 11:17 PM on July 11, 2023
It's a movie, not a show, and at the end of the trailer, it says EXCLUSIVELY IN THEATERS / THANKSGIVING. A little odd for an Apple TV+ production, but so be it.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:28 PM on July 11, 2023
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 11:28 PM on July 11, 2023
Ridley Scott has been a very prolific and interesting director for decades now, but there's something...sort of speedy and efficient about his movies. Too efficient. They are expertly and handsomely mounted, intelligently constructed, well cast and well acted, and while watching them I am thoroughly entertained.
And afterwards, within a day or two I'll forget the whole thing.
I hope Scott breaks his streak with this movie, but I just find his movies frustratingly forgettable. I remember liking The Martian, for example, but aside from a few scenes I can't really remember it much at all. Phoenix is a genuinely great actor, so hopefully he tips the scales the other way for Napoleon.
posted by zardoz at 12:15 AM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
And afterwards, within a day or two I'll forget the whole thing.
I hope Scott breaks his streak with this movie, but I just find his movies frustratingly forgettable. I remember liking The Martian, for example, but aside from a few scenes I can't really remember it much at all. Phoenix is a genuinely great actor, so hopefully he tips the scales the other way for Napoleon.
posted by zardoz at 12:15 AM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would wholly accept Napoleon the animated movie by Kate Beaton.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:36 AM on July 12, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 12:36 AM on July 12, 2023 [32 favorites]
It's a movie, not a show, and at the end of the trailer, it says EXCLUSIVELY IN THEATERS / THANKSGIVING. A little odd for an Apple TV+ production, but so be it.
Isn't that to be eligible for awards?
posted by Harald74 at 12:40 AM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Isn't that to be eligible for awards?
posted by Harald74 at 12:40 AM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
“You cannot stop me; I spend thirty thousand men a month.”
— Napoleon
This guy was gutsy.
I first heard this quote from Dan Carlin, as he was explaining that the last thing other European kings wanted to do was arm their people.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:32 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
— Napoleon
This guy was gutsy.
I first heard this quote from Dan Carlin, as he was explaining that the last thing other European kings wanted to do was arm their people.
posted by dancestoblue at 1:32 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
My take on Ridley Scott. The man is actually illiterate. He cannot read the scripts he is given. If someone gives him a good script, he'll make gorgeous good movie (The Duelists, Blade Runner). If someone gives him a bad script, he'll make a gorgeous bad movie (1492).
posted by kokaku at 2:38 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 2:38 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
It is not without reason that in most places guy’s name was pretty much a synonym for the devil until the Nazis upped the ante.
There is pretty much zero chance this film will convey that message. I was appalled by this trailer.
The guy was a monster. Full stop.
He was bad enough that he got EVERYONE against him and once they put him on a rock in the middle of nowhere, the memory of him caused European states to stop killing each other for over a generation, something that had not happened since the Romans, and would not happen again until 1945.
It is true that some of those who kept the armories locked in those years did so out of fear of another revolution, but the fact is that the Revolution and the Reign of Terror etc were France’s problem. International war was started not by the French, and it was Napoleon who took it all to the level that so frightened the world.
I can only seek solace in the probability that I won’t live long enough to see the future’s equivalent treatment for the nazis.
There is a deeply seated impulse in humanity to support the man (and it’s usually a man) on the horse who will just fix things ( make the trains run on time, “I alone can fix it,” blah blah blah).
We don’t need to encourage it.
posted by nothing.especially.clever at 3:37 AM on July 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is pretty much zero chance this film will convey that message. I was appalled by this trailer.
The guy was a monster. Full stop.
He was bad enough that he got EVERYONE against him and once they put him on a rock in the middle of nowhere, the memory of him caused European states to stop killing each other for over a generation, something that had not happened since the Romans, and would not happen again until 1945.
It is true that some of those who kept the armories locked in those years did so out of fear of another revolution, but the fact is that the Revolution and the Reign of Terror etc were France’s problem. International war was started not by the French, and it was Napoleon who took it all to the level that so frightened the world.
I can only seek solace in the probability that I won’t live long enough to see the future’s equivalent treatment for the nazis.
There is a deeply seated impulse in humanity to support the man (and it’s usually a man) on the horse who will just fix things ( make the trains run on time, “I alone can fix it,” blah blah blah).
We don’t need to encourage it.
posted by nothing.especially.clever at 3:37 AM on July 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
BATTLEFIELDS ARE NOW OCEANS
Excellent callback to Master and Commander, which sadly will likely never get the sequel it deserves, much more than the world perhaps needs another Ridley Scott mess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:46 AM on July 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Excellent callback to Master and Commander, which sadly will likely never get the sequel it deserves, much more than the world perhaps needs another Ridley Scott mess.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:46 AM on July 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Come on the best Napoleon portrayal was in Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure and you know it.
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:51 AM on July 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:51 AM on July 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
There is pretty much zero chance this film will convey that message. I was appalled by this trailer.
I feel ya, inasmuch as the trailer's editing and music seemed a little too Eroic. OTOH, what we see of Phoenix's performance here strikes me as kind of psychopathic, so maybe (and this would also be appalling) the film will take a carefully ambivalent approach to whether he should be admired or reviled.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:53 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I feel ya, inasmuch as the trailer's editing and music seemed a little too Eroic. OTOH, what we see of Phoenix's performance here strikes me as kind of psychopathic, so maybe (and this would also be appalling) the film will take a carefully ambivalent approach to whether he should be admired or reviled.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:53 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
“I can only seek solace in the probability that I won’t live long enough to see the future’s equivalent treatment for the nazis.”
I hear you, but I don’t think this will happen. You can tell a story about Napoleon where the appalling deaths and destruction are merely the unfortunate cost of building a glorious Empire. It’s a bullshit story, but it’ll make narrative sense. Whereas, with the Nazis, the atrocities were the point; they considered the Holocaust the crowning achievement of their state. Napoleon was bad, but the Nazis were at a level of bugfuck psychopathy that will forever keep them from being sympathetic characters. I hope so, anyway.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 4:26 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I hear you, but I don’t think this will happen. You can tell a story about Napoleon where the appalling deaths and destruction are merely the unfortunate cost of building a glorious Empire. It’s a bullshit story, but it’ll make narrative sense. Whereas, with the Nazis, the atrocities were the point; they considered the Holocaust the crowning achievement of their state. Napoleon was bad, but the Nazis were at a level of bugfuck psychopathy that will forever keep them from being sympathetic characters. I hope so, anyway.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 4:26 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sorry, I just can't buy Joaquin Phoenix as a young Napoleon.
posted by Pendragon at 4:30 AM on July 12, 2023
posted by Pendragon at 4:30 AM on July 12, 2023
“I can only seek solace in the probability that I won’t live long enough to see the future’s equivalent treatment for the nazis.”
Stalin killed more of his own ppl than the nazis did. Stalin starved millions in Ukraine in the 1930s. Stalin and Hitler together waxed Poland. Without Stalin the nazis would not have been put down. He was a big piece of shit who gets a pass because we needed him to put the nazis down.
The Japanese were every bit as vile as the nazis. Best I can see they get the pass they do because of atomic weapons shamed us some, plus keeping them occupied by US troops kept Stalin from swooping in and killing anybody/everybody who was left alive and getting prime real estate.
Chairman Mao killed more ppl than anyone else. Mostly his own. He was a real sweetheart. If China had anything other than bamboo fishing poles to attack with they'd have really made a mess, would have been pretty cool to have them go toe to toe with the Russians
posted by dancestoblue at 5:15 AM on July 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Stalin killed more of his own ppl than the nazis did. Stalin starved millions in Ukraine in the 1930s. Stalin and Hitler together waxed Poland. Without Stalin the nazis would not have been put down. He was a big piece of shit who gets a pass because we needed him to put the nazis down.
The Japanese were every bit as vile as the nazis. Best I can see they get the pass they do because of atomic weapons shamed us some, plus keeping them occupied by US troops kept Stalin from swooping in and killing anybody/everybody who was left alive and getting prime real estate.
Chairman Mao killed more ppl than anyone else. Mostly his own. He was a real sweetheart. If China had anything other than bamboo fishing poles to attack with they'd have really made a mess, would have been pretty cool to have them go toe to toe with the Russians
posted by dancestoblue at 5:15 AM on July 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
There’s no sign of it in the trailer but I really hope there’s a subplot about Napoleon’s brother moving to New Jersey.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 6:02 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 6:02 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Was that Radiohead's "National Anthem" reworked to be the soundtrack? So weird.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:51 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:51 AM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Has anybody seen the Jean Cocteau version?
I assume you mean Abel Gance's Napoleon unless Cocteau did one I am unaware of? I've seen the Francis Ford Coppola's 4 hour restoration of the Abel Gance film, without a doubt a powerful film with incredibly haunting images. Apparently there is a version that is 7 hours long being prepared for this year.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:26 AM on July 12, 2023
I assume you mean Abel Gance's Napoleon unless Cocteau did one I am unaware of? I've seen the Francis Ford Coppola's 4 hour restoration of the Abel Gance film, without a doubt a powerful film with incredibly haunting images. Apparently there is a version that is 7 hours long being prepared for this year.
posted by Ashwagandha at 7:26 AM on July 12, 2023
Historical accuracy? In a Ridley Scott film?
I watched a video by a historian and he was pretty excited.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on July 12, 2023
I watched a video by a historian and he was pretty excited.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:26 AM on July 12, 2023
"I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake. I simply never do."
spoiler alert
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:56 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
spoiler alert
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:56 AM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, I will not abide this Martin Weir erasure.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:59 AM on July 12, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:59 AM on July 12, 2023
Looks great, but — Kubrick’s would have been miles above.
At least a few feet.
posted by clavdivs at 9:48 AM on July 12, 2023
At least a few feet.
posted by clavdivs at 9:48 AM on July 12, 2023
I read a book about a year ago in which the professor makes the argument that the Napoleonic Wars were the first true World War. And he makes a wonderful case for it too.
Napoleonic Wars : A Global History; By Alexander Mikaberidze
posted by indianbadger1 at 10:29 AM on July 12, 2023
Napoleonic Wars : A Global History; By Alexander Mikaberidze
posted by indianbadger1 at 10:29 AM on July 12, 2023
"I'm the first to admit when I make a mistake. I simply never do."
I love Blade Runner, but after reading Future Noir and learning of the director's treatment of workers on-set, I was expecting this quote was from Ridley himself. And I wouldn't be half-surprised that this film is being made just so he could have an actor utter those words at the audience, on his behalf.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:44 AM on July 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I love Blade Runner, but after reading Future Noir and learning of the director's treatment of workers on-set, I was expecting this quote was from Ridley himself. And I wouldn't be half-surprised that this film is being made just so he could have an actor utter those words at the audience, on his behalf.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:44 AM on July 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read a book about a year ago in which the professor makes the argument that the Napoleonic Wars were the first true World War.
I usually think of the Seven Years' War as the first global war.
posted by Pendragon at 12:20 PM on July 12, 2023
I usually think of the Seven Years' War as the first global war.
posted by Pendragon at 12:20 PM on July 12, 2023
Of course they were incredibly lucky to sign up Joaquin Phoenix just as he started to think he was Napoleon.
posted by biffa at 3:50 PM on July 12, 2023
posted by biffa at 3:50 PM on July 12, 2023
In his pre-presidential acting career, Volodymyr Zelenskyy also played Napoleon. I've seen it -- I wouldn't say it's *good*, but it's pretty delightfully lunatic.
posted by tavella at 4:15 PM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 4:15 PM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Was Napoleon a good man? No.
Was his fight for universal human rights while himself seizing absolute power deeply interesting and worth investigating? Yes.
But, in reaction to comments above (which I do not at all completely disagree with), and to point out why he is a figure of interest, I'm going to add some points about Napoleon that are positive. I once took a course on his life in University, in which the final written exam was "Argue that Napoleon was a positive or negative force in Europe. Hint: neither is proven."
I do not disagree that he lost his mind and soul to political ambition and power. The great irony of his life is taking the title Emperor, and passing power onto his family, when what his armies most fought against were the ancient class systems of Europe. Beethoven changed the dedication of his 3rd symphony "Eroica" after that event, when it had initially been to laud Napoleon as a meritocratic inspiration.
Here were France's main opponents:
The Bourbons (In Spain and more distant regions of France)
King George III
The Archdukes of Austria
Tsar Alexander I
Not exactly the good guys in my opinion. There are very few absolute good or bad figures though.
Those powers were continually fighting to restore monarchy in Europe after the American and French liberal revolutions. Once Napoleon was deposed, Louis XVIII was put back on the throne of France.
Was Napoleon's "main tool" war? Absolutely. I am not arguing that this was not a horrific time, and he was absolutely ruthless in waging war. These wars didn't start with him though. They'd been on and off for at least a century.
But he also centralized the French government, built infrastructure that is still used, including a greatly expanded educational system for the people, and started the first veteran's hospitals. He's entombed in one of those.
The Code Napoleon is still the basis from which much European (and even some Middle Eastern and US State) law is derived. It made huge strides in civil liberty, equality before the law (although not for women in the same sense as for men), and the secular character of the state. The code marked the end of feudalism and the liberation of serfs where it took effect (most notably less adopted the further East you travel, which is why in WWI Russia still had practically serf armies).
Foreign armies went to great lengths to prevent their troops from talking across pickets with French troops, as they would get stirred up to throw off their local aristocrats.
He also reimposed slavery for about 300000 people in the colonies in flagrant violation of the ideals of the revolution. This is in my opinion his most damnable act.
Was he a good man? No.
Is he the absolute villain portrayed in English periodicals and media after his defeat (who writes history?)? No.
Did he do a lot of very bad bad things? Oh hell yes.
Was the suffering entirely caused by him or by the aristocratic powers that would not accept a republican form of government on the continent? Up for debate.
Again, was he a good man? No.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:14 PM on July 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
Was his fight for universal human rights while himself seizing absolute power deeply interesting and worth investigating? Yes.
But, in reaction to comments above (which I do not at all completely disagree with), and to point out why he is a figure of interest, I'm going to add some points about Napoleon that are positive. I once took a course on his life in University, in which the final written exam was "Argue that Napoleon was a positive or negative force in Europe. Hint: neither is proven."
I do not disagree that he lost his mind and soul to political ambition and power. The great irony of his life is taking the title Emperor, and passing power onto his family, when what his armies most fought against were the ancient class systems of Europe. Beethoven changed the dedication of his 3rd symphony "Eroica" after that event, when it had initially been to laud Napoleon as a meritocratic inspiration.
Here were France's main opponents:
The Bourbons (In Spain and more distant regions of France)
King George III
The Archdukes of Austria
Tsar Alexander I
Not exactly the good guys in my opinion. There are very few absolute good or bad figures though.
Those powers were continually fighting to restore monarchy in Europe after the American and French liberal revolutions. Once Napoleon was deposed, Louis XVIII was put back on the throne of France.
Was Napoleon's "main tool" war? Absolutely. I am not arguing that this was not a horrific time, and he was absolutely ruthless in waging war. These wars didn't start with him though. They'd been on and off for at least a century.
But he also centralized the French government, built infrastructure that is still used, including a greatly expanded educational system for the people, and started the first veteran's hospitals. He's entombed in one of those.
The Code Napoleon is still the basis from which much European (and even some Middle Eastern and US State) law is derived. It made huge strides in civil liberty, equality before the law (although not for women in the same sense as for men), and the secular character of the state. The code marked the end of feudalism and the liberation of serfs where it took effect (most notably less adopted the further East you travel, which is why in WWI Russia still had practically serf armies).
Foreign armies went to great lengths to prevent their troops from talking across pickets with French troops, as they would get stirred up to throw off their local aristocrats.
He also reimposed slavery for about 300000 people in the colonies in flagrant violation of the ideals of the revolution. This is in my opinion his most damnable act.
Was he a good man? No.
Is he the absolute villain portrayed in English periodicals and media after his defeat (who writes history?)? No.
Did he do a lot of very bad bad things? Oh hell yes.
Was the suffering entirely caused by him or by the aristocratic powers that would not accept a republican form of government on the continent? Up for debate.
Again, was he a good man? No.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:14 PM on July 12, 2023 [15 favorites]
I can only seek solace in the probability that I won’t live long enough to see the future’s equivalent treatment for the nazis.
That future is here now. Here is a tweet from Seattle Times editor David Volodzko that defends Hitler in relation to Stalin, somehow. Specious logic and cherrypicking will be used to clean up the past, and may work, given enough mental elbow grease and the right audience.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:46 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That future is here now. Here is a tweet from Seattle Times editor David Volodzko that defends Hitler in relation to Stalin, somehow. Specious logic and cherrypicking will be used to clean up the past, and may work, given enough mental elbow grease and the right audience.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:46 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
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posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:06 PM on July 11, 2023 [7 favorites]