You are not the answer
July 13, 2023 11:30 AM Subscribe
"We are told that the problems in our lives are solvable mostly by individual action. This lie has been repeated so often that it has soaked down into the cultural bedrock of much of the western world and so is almost an inescapable starting proposition." You are not the answer.
(Love it, thanks for posting)
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:32 AM on July 13, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:32 AM on July 13, 2023
Oh god yes. From global heating, to growing pollution of our air, water, food and ecosystems, to energy and food inflation (a massive problem in the UK), to the cost of housing, to the ever-growing inequality across the western world that channels ever more of the wealth upwards to the super rich, to the continual erosion of our human rights and healthcare (the anti-women crusade of the US Supreme Court is particularly horrifying to behold from over here); these and so many more are not problems we can resolve or even mitigate as individuals.
Sustained, collective (and often international) action by the powerful - including, but not only governments - in the interests of the general public and well, trying to have a livable planet for much longer is the only answer, yet the corruption runs so far and so deep I have no idea how we get to there from here, or if we even can.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:51 AM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Sustained, collective (and often international) action by the powerful - including, but not only governments - in the interests of the general public and well, trying to have a livable planet for much longer is the only answer, yet the corruption runs so far and so deep I have no idea how we get to there from here, or if we even can.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 11:51 AM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
This simple truth has not traditionally been received well on MeFi judging by previous threads on, say, the environment.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:57 AM on July 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:57 AM on July 13, 2023 [20 favorites]
This is so right on I am so glad you posted this. My only wish is they fleshed out this excellent conclusion even further: "Instead, we should take comfort from the fact that there are others that feel the same way as us about issues—we have only to find them and then work together to force politicians and CEOs to make the changes we demand. "
posted by latkes at 12:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by latkes at 12:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, I so love a good blog.
posted by latkes at 12:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by latkes at 12:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Historically, individuals were seen as being entirely in control of their health. Sickness was—and far too often still is—blamed on poor individual choices rather than acknowledging the significant and crucial impact of the social determinants of health
This is actually a fairly recent phenomenon. Before the field of public health was called public health, it was practiced by people who realized that health came from social resources like clean water, sanitation, and high quality housing. Prior to the emergence of Germ Theory, the widespread view was that disease was just kind of a crapshoot, but healthier environments helped prevent it, and adequate food and rest helped heal.
It was only in the 20th century that this got biomedicalized and shifted to a lens of individual behavior rather than aggregate access to collective resources. But due to age and cultural shifts in the field, it's tilting back in the direction of understanding structural/systematic/environmental causes of health or harm - with the overarching finding being that inequality and lack of access to resources is the biggest driver of morbidity/mortality.
posted by entropone at 12:14 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is actually a fairly recent phenomenon. Before the field of public health was called public health, it was practiced by people who realized that health came from social resources like clean water, sanitation, and high quality housing. Prior to the emergence of Germ Theory, the widespread view was that disease was just kind of a crapshoot, but healthier environments helped prevent it, and adequate food and rest helped heal.
It was only in the 20th century that this got biomedicalized and shifted to a lens of individual behavior rather than aggregate access to collective resources. But due to age and cultural shifts in the field, it's tilting back in the direction of understanding structural/systematic/environmental causes of health or harm - with the overarching finding being that inequality and lack of access to resources is the biggest driver of morbidity/mortality.
posted by entropone at 12:14 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
This simple truth has not traditionally been received well on MeFi judging by previous threads on, say, the environment.
Because it strikes against a core cultural myth, one that many have internalized - that individual action can reshape the world. And the reality is that against complex interaction, it cannot.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:22 PM on July 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
Because it strikes against a core cultural myth, one that many have internalized - that individual action can reshape the world. And the reality is that against complex interaction, it cannot.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:22 PM on July 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
acknowledging the significant and crucial impact of the social determinants of health
Also - the environmental impacts on health - almost every choice we make from growing/harvesting (how much water and soil is contaminated with PFAS?), packaging (do the marketplaces HAVE to package everything in plastic for the average consumer?), additivtes (sugar is bad, here... have something else... oops, it is a carcinogen and we have known that for 30-40 years, so sorry) and consumption (... be careful when frying using your teflon coated pans, BPA was bad, so now it's gone... what about BP...B, D, E, F...? apparently there are no regulations for reformulated BP"x" yet...).
a core cultural myth, one that many have internalized
No ... it was not a cultural myth - but a marketing ploy to guilt the individuals and offload responsibility - sold to us by the same corporations doing the damage.
posted by rozcakj at 12:29 PM on July 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also - the environmental impacts on health - almost every choice we make from growing/harvesting (how much water and soil is contaminated with PFAS?), packaging (do the marketplaces HAVE to package everything in plastic for the average consumer?), additivtes (sugar is bad, here... have something else... oops, it is a carcinogen and we have known that for 30-40 years, so sorry) and consumption (... be careful when frying using your teflon coated pans, BPA was bad, so now it's gone... what about BP...B, D, E, F...? apparently there are no regulations for reformulated BP"x" yet...).
a core cultural myth, one that many have internalized
No ... it was not a cultural myth - but a marketing ploy to guilt the individuals and offload responsibility - sold to us by the same corporations doing the damage.
posted by rozcakj at 12:29 PM on July 13, 2023 [18 favorites]
People in power and influence have convinced us that all the individuals without wealth, are solely responsible for all the bad things that are happening.
That we should trust, reward and even idolise the hoarders of money, power and influence. And we should see their systematic abuse and destruction of others for their own personal gain, are for everyone's benefit.
You can all be wealthy too, if you just put in the hours and work hard enough for them. Don't worry about having a life for yourself in the meantime, just buy these token items to pretend to experience their wonderful materialistic life.
It also doesn't matter when/where you were born, or who much privilege you were born with. Apparently.
posted by many-things at 12:34 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
That we should trust, reward and even idolise the hoarders of money, power and influence. And we should see their systematic abuse and destruction of others for their own personal gain, are for everyone's benefit.
You can all be wealthy too, if you just put in the hours and work hard enough for them. Don't worry about having a life for yourself in the meantime, just buy these token items to pretend to experience their wonderful materialistic life.
It also doesn't matter when/where you were born, or who much privilege you were born with. Apparently.
posted by many-things at 12:34 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
No ... it was not a cultural myth - but a marketing ploy to guilt the individuals and offload responsibility - sold to us by the same corporations doing the damage.
While the marketing ploys certainly amplified and boosted them to evade responsibility, things like the "lone sharpshooter" myth predate them significantly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
While the marketing ploys certainly amplified and boosted them to evade responsibility, things like the "lone sharpshooter" myth predate them significantly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
This interpretation of individual action is frustrating to me, because enormous power is concentrated in fewer hands than ever. It's not that individual action per se isn't meaningful, but that it depends a lot on who you are and what actions you have at your disposal.
If you're powerful--a CEO, a billionaire, a major political figure--your individual actions can have huge global consequences. We live increasingly at the whims of individuals, as opposed to within a framework of collective action.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 12:47 PM on July 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
If you're powerful--a CEO, a billionaire, a major political figure--your individual actions can have huge global consequences. We live increasingly at the whims of individuals, as opposed to within a framework of collective action.
posted by MetaFilter World Peace at 12:47 PM on July 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
Okay, so I’m well aware that my individual actions can’t stop climate change or private equity destroying every institution that exists. Now what? These fucking ghouls aren’t going to regulate themselves. At least here in the US, the bodies with the ability to pass better regulations are terribly understaffed and often toothless. I’ve seen so many legit collective actions get crushed even in my relatively short life.
Sorry to be a downer. I know that the idea that individuals can only do so much is freeing for a lot of people, but for me it only adds to my sense of fatalism. If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
(I am interested in people’s thoughts on how they navigate this dynamic day to day and avoid falling into fatalism, but not interested in re-litigating how effective recent collective actions have been, is looting good or bad, etc).
posted by ActionPopulated at 12:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Sorry to be a downer. I know that the idea that individuals can only do so much is freeing for a lot of people, but for me it only adds to my sense of fatalism. If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
(I am interested in people’s thoughts on how they navigate this dynamic day to day and avoid falling into fatalism, but not interested in re-litigating how effective recent collective actions have been, is looting good or bad, etc).
posted by ActionPopulated at 12:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
I don't worry about saving the planet or fixing Congress. I return my shopping cart to the corral because it makes life easier for the grocery store employees. I don't litter and generally leave campsites nicer than I found because it makes life better for the next person. I can't change the world, but I can positively impact somebody's life every day. And if enough people do that, life will get better for everybody. Even the bastards that don't deserve it.
posted by COD at 1:01 PM on July 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
I don't worry about saving the planet or fixing Congress. I return my shopping cart to the corral because it makes life easier for the grocery store employees. I don't litter and generally leave campsites nicer than I found because it makes life better for the next person. I can't change the world, but I can positively impact somebody's life every day. And if enough people do that, life will get better for everybody. Even the bastards that don't deserve it.
posted by COD at 1:01 PM on July 13, 2023 [33 favorites]
If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
Putting different people in power with the two most powerful tool of individual action you have -- votes and smallish donations.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Putting different people in power with the two most powerful tool of individual action you have -- votes and smallish donations.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Two truths:
1) It is helpful to encourage people to take the many actions that can significantly improve their health (primarily, do not smoke, do not eat or drink alcohol to excess, remain socially connected, and be physically active).
2) It is harmful to shame people who smoke, drink, are sedentary, etc.
These are extremely hard to reconcile. It is also true that the barriers to taking appropriate actions vary greatly: It's much easier to take healthful actions when you have time, money, and education. But acknowledging those barriers could lead people to feel that they have even less agency than they do.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
1) It is helpful to encourage people to take the many actions that can significantly improve their health (primarily, do not smoke, do not eat or drink alcohol to excess, remain socially connected, and be physically active).
2) It is harmful to shame people who smoke, drink, are sedentary, etc.
These are extremely hard to reconcile. It is also true that the barriers to taking appropriate actions vary greatly: It's much easier to take healthful actions when you have time, money, and education. But acknowledging those barriers could lead people to feel that they have even less agency than they do.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
(I am interested in people’s thoughts on how they navigate this dynamic day to day and avoid falling into fatalism, but not interested in re-litigating how effective recent collective actions have been, is looting good or bad, etc).
The way that big things change in the world is through collective action. A group of people make a plan together and then work toward it with escalating intensity until they win (or are defeated). History is pretty instructive on this stuff! The Revolutions Podcast goes into great detail on the common themes of how groups of people seized moments of crisis toward revolutionary change. Reading about the US Civil Rights Movement or Ghandian movement against British rule of India, or watch Crip Camp about the US Disability rights movement or study how women won the vote. Changes giant or medium sized or small happen when people take action together. This can take the form of violence or non-violence, democratic social movements or autocratic cadre. Personally, I want a world of democracy and mutual respect, so I think it makes sense to work within structures with those values now - the means creates the ends.
How? Join an organization. It's that simple. Either pick an issue: say gun violence or climate, shop around and find what organizations are working on that issue and join. Commit a certain number of hours of your week each week to working together with these like minded comrades. Or if you believe that we need a bigger picture solution, there are organizations around today that fight for more system level change or revolutionary change. Join an organization, make short and long term goals, stay committed and work your ass off toward those goals. That's how we make change.
posted by latkes at 1:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
The way that big things change in the world is through collective action. A group of people make a plan together and then work toward it with escalating intensity until they win (or are defeated). History is pretty instructive on this stuff! The Revolutions Podcast goes into great detail on the common themes of how groups of people seized moments of crisis toward revolutionary change. Reading about the US Civil Rights Movement or Ghandian movement against British rule of India, or watch Crip Camp about the US Disability rights movement or study how women won the vote. Changes giant or medium sized or small happen when people take action together. This can take the form of violence or non-violence, democratic social movements or autocratic cadre. Personally, I want a world of democracy and mutual respect, so I think it makes sense to work within structures with those values now - the means creates the ends.
How? Join an organization. It's that simple. Either pick an issue: say gun violence or climate, shop around and find what organizations are working on that issue and join. Commit a certain number of hours of your week each week to working together with these like minded comrades. Or if you believe that we need a bigger picture solution, there are organizations around today that fight for more system level change or revolutionary change. Join an organization, make short and long term goals, stay committed and work your ass off toward those goals. That's how we make change.
posted by latkes at 1:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
I definitely have some power over my own health. I can't help environmental or genetic factors, but I can exercise and eat well. I can drink water and get enough sleep and not have pizza and fries every week*. It's not like we're entirely powerless, but yes, there are limits. So you work with what you have.
The conclusions in the article mostly come down to "politicians must do this" and "the state must do this" and "employers must do this" which, yes, they must, but how do you make them to these things? And our main avenue for change is voting, which is very much an individual act that in isolation makes no statistical difference but is never the less critical to do, because the more people vote, the more power the people have. That's why so much effort is put into voter disenfranchisement.
* that is not a straw man argument, I have been keeping a detailed log of my diet since mid-2022 and did a CRTL-F for "pizza" and "fries" after a troubling lipid panel, and boy howdy did I get a lot of hits
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:21 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The conclusions in the article mostly come down to "politicians must do this" and "the state must do this" and "employers must do this" which, yes, they must, but how do you make them to these things? And our main avenue for change is voting, which is very much an individual act that in isolation makes no statistical difference but is never the less critical to do, because the more people vote, the more power the people have. That's why so much effort is put into voter disenfranchisement.
* that is not a straw man argument, I have been keeping a detailed log of my diet since mid-2022 and did a CRTL-F for "pizza" and "fries" after a troubling lipid panel, and boy howdy did I get a lot of hits
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:21 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
or drink alcohol to excess
Or - unfortunately - not at all. (Sigh - I just learned this a couple weeks ago)
posted by rozcakj at 1:32 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Or - unfortunately - not at all. (Sigh - I just learned this a couple weeks ago)
posted by rozcakj at 1:32 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
No, guys, it's because we're using straws. If we all stop using straws, everything is solved.
posted by nushustu at 1:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by nushustu at 1:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
Or - unfortunately - not at all
That WHO statement doesn't link to any studies at all, which is a red flag for any such pronouncement. So don't worry about having a couple of beers a week.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:48 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That WHO statement doesn't link to any studies at all, which is a red flag for any such pronouncement. So don't worry about having a couple of beers a week.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:48 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
or drink alcohol to excess
Non-alcoholic beers have gotten surprisingly good. I can recommend Athletic Brewing Upside Dawn, Sam Adams Hazy NA IPA, and the NA Guinness is shockingly good.
posted by COD at 1:51 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Non-alcoholic beers have gotten surprisingly good. I can recommend Athletic Brewing Upside Dawn, Sam Adams Hazy NA IPA, and the NA Guinness is shockingly good.
posted by COD at 1:51 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
what about red wine huh shhhh
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:53 PM on July 13, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:53 PM on July 13, 2023
Individual action is definitely an answer, especially when the individual has power to act in an actionable way, e.g. politicians, lawmakers, business executives, etc. Most people do not have this power, but it can be used by those who have it to affect important and necessary changes in society.
The rest of us (i.e., those who do not have this kind of power, generally speaking) also have agency to act in individual (as well as collective) ways to influence those powerful individuals. We can vote, for instance, or boycott businesses that act to take away our rights.
We can also act in ways that do not require assent or approval from powerful individuals. We can choose to separate our trash or put it all into a landfill. We can try to use more public transit or keep filling the car with gas. We can choose how much and what foods we consume. We can choose how much or how little exercise we take. We can choose whether or not to buy and consume water in plastic bottles, even.
Individuals have agency and those choices do add up in the aggregate to outcomes, and those decisions are probably not nearly as insubstantial as argued in the link. People making individual choices to eat animal-sourced protein (myself included) are, in the aggregate, leading us to outcomes like, for example, the Amazon forest being razed to make way for livestock, or decimated fish populations.
Someone upthread used the word "freeing" to express assent with the link's argument. It is freeing to let go of agency, but it probably isn't going to work in the long term.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The rest of us (i.e., those who do not have this kind of power, generally speaking) also have agency to act in individual (as well as collective) ways to influence those powerful individuals. We can vote, for instance, or boycott businesses that act to take away our rights.
We can also act in ways that do not require assent or approval from powerful individuals. We can choose to separate our trash or put it all into a landfill. We can try to use more public transit or keep filling the car with gas. We can choose how much and what foods we consume. We can choose how much or how little exercise we take. We can choose whether or not to buy and consume water in plastic bottles, even.
Individuals have agency and those choices do add up in the aggregate to outcomes, and those decisions are probably not nearly as insubstantial as argued in the link. People making individual choices to eat animal-sourced protein (myself included) are, in the aggregate, leading us to outcomes like, for example, the Amazon forest being razed to make way for livestock, or decimated fish populations.
Someone upthread used the word "freeing" to express assent with the link's argument. It is freeing to let go of agency, but it probably isn't going to work in the long term.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:54 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
As long as governments aren't taking actual regulatory measures to stop all carbon-in-the-atmosphere activity, the climate will continue to grow more fucked. Period. It doesn't matter how much fewer miles are driven or whatever. Industrial activities use way more carbon than consumer activities, and industry is not going to stop using the energy source they're built to use unless they are forced. Period. That's just a fact.
With our court system issuing judgements that agencies such as the EPA isn't allowed to regulate air quality, it's apparent that only direct action by Congress to write laws with severe penalties for transgression that they are willing to enforce is going to actually change things.
I don't know how to convince people elected to power to start taking votes that will literally tank the economy. We've been, in theory, trying to do a soft transition for decades but the past couple of years indicate we're already too late. So Congress isn't going to do anything, the courts have hamstrung even the things their directed agent actors have tried to take, and industry isn't going to change on its own.
If anyone has any real thoughts toward action that will be meaningful, as in is very fast acting because every day we burn carbon the planet gets hotter, I'm all ears.
posted by hippybear at 2:02 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
With our court system issuing judgements that agencies such as the EPA isn't allowed to regulate air quality, it's apparent that only direct action by Congress to write laws with severe penalties for transgression that they are willing to enforce is going to actually change things.
I don't know how to convince people elected to power to start taking votes that will literally tank the economy. We've been, in theory, trying to do a soft transition for decades but the past couple of years indicate we're already too late. So Congress isn't going to do anything, the courts have hamstrung even the things their directed agent actors have tried to take, and industry isn't going to change on its own.
If anyone has any real thoughts toward action that will be meaningful, as in is very fast acting because every day we burn carbon the planet gets hotter, I'm all ears.
posted by hippybear at 2:02 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Vote harder, which is basically all we CAN do that will really fix climate change is a terrible message, so I'm not surprised a lot of people reject it. Doing something yourself feels good, you're taking actual, measurable, concrete action and you don't have to wade through a sea of glacial governnet BS and right wing scum who think green energy is weak and feminine, or fight off the biggest corporations on the planet.
And personal virtue is good. We absolutely should be doing all those things.
But frankly we're shit at organizing, in no small part because it's hard, thankless, exhausting, and annoying. But the massive schoolboard losses and radicalization of schools proves that we're not organized but the enemy is. And organization is what it takes.
Remember ACORN? It worked. That's why the Republicans dismantled it, because it frightend them by working.
So that's what we need to do. That's the most effective act you can take. Joining or founding an org that gets people registered and voting.
And that is so fucking tiresome, and it feels like you're not accomplishing anything, and JFC you're inflicting meetings on yourself in your free time instead of just suffering them at work.
Worst of all it takes fucking forever and you never feel like you're accomplishing anything. Shitty hard work for no visible result. Bleh.
So do good! Be virtuous, cut your personal footprint, clean up the local river, all that great stuff! But also? Join or found a local voter recruitment group, because that's what we need. And we need victory at ALL levels of government, we can't afford to let the R's keep taking over school boards and city councils and so on.
And that sucks. It's miserable, it seems futile, and it takes sooooooo damn long.
But it's what we've got.
Its all we've got.
posted by sotonohito at 2:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
And personal virtue is good. We absolutely should be doing all those things.
But frankly we're shit at organizing, in no small part because it's hard, thankless, exhausting, and annoying. But the massive schoolboard losses and radicalization of schools proves that we're not organized but the enemy is. And organization is what it takes.
Remember ACORN? It worked. That's why the Republicans dismantled it, because it frightend them by working.
So that's what we need to do. That's the most effective act you can take. Joining or founding an org that gets people registered and voting.
And that is so fucking tiresome, and it feels like you're not accomplishing anything, and JFC you're inflicting meetings on yourself in your free time instead of just suffering them at work.
Worst of all it takes fucking forever and you never feel like you're accomplishing anything. Shitty hard work for no visible result. Bleh.
So do good! Be virtuous, cut your personal footprint, clean up the local river, all that great stuff! But also? Join or found a local voter recruitment group, because that's what we need. And we need victory at ALL levels of government, we can't afford to let the R's keep taking over school boards and city councils and so on.
And that sucks. It's miserable, it seems futile, and it takes sooooooo damn long.
But it's what we've got.
Its all we've got.
posted by sotonohito at 2:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
There is still value in doing the small good things, even if they don't save the world, because there is value in having your actions reflect your beliefs in so far as that's manageable, and there is often room for tiny improvements in people's lives that can be brought about by those actions (grocery cart example above). You just shouldn't get militant about it, because it's not about your saving the world.
posted by praemunire at 2:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 2:13 PM on July 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Yet the corporations would not be doing what they do without customers.
Here on the blue a person living in the city was opining how the cities need to have vertical farming so they could get local strawberries. The CO2 from the concrete, making the lights, powering the lights, gathering very fungal based soil and placing in the tower, the chemicals to repress the bugs, paying city level taxes, "refeshing" the strawberry plants every production run and doing the same for the soil, taking the additive rich water in the city and making is less brawndo for the plants, paying staff who have to live in the city and other things VS just buying them grown thousands of miles away and paying to get 'em to the city. Making the stawberries a 365 day a year crop has a cost. Same with most seasonal produce.
Now you COULD get a plot of land and grow your own veggies. But that takes time and effort to do and how many of the "you" are going to do what got humans to the point of trading oil for "artificial manure" and the world you now live in? While varied spices make some sense to have - are you willing to go back to how humans used to eat by having 10-20 items? (my grandma had 4 spices. Salt, pepper, garlic/onion powder. In a constrained world we can still do better than that with a limited impact) How about the expense of everything made of plastic now being hog bristle toothbrushes and scrubbing brushes? Things made of carved bones? Does humanity even have enough pigs and bones?
Now lets go with something simple. An ex-peak oil gent known as KMO had an interview where a story was told about a challenge made to the climate concerned youth. First agreement was made that people should do simple things. Then agreement was reached over the energy needed to dry clothes in the standard US electric tumble dryer. These youth were then asked if they would make a commitment to just outdoor air dry their clothes. The story concludes with most youth not willing to the simple thing of hanging clothes out to air dry.
The "you" can condemn corporations but modern western humans don't want to give up the Earl Butts cheap food, the 365 getting out of season things cheap, pushbutton ease, and for some things there are just not enough not-oil material to make other items without oil.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:20 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Here on the blue a person living in the city was opining how the cities need to have vertical farming so they could get local strawberries. The CO2 from the concrete, making the lights, powering the lights, gathering very fungal based soil and placing in the tower, the chemicals to repress the bugs, paying city level taxes, "refeshing" the strawberry plants every production run and doing the same for the soil, taking the additive rich water in the city and making is less brawndo for the plants, paying staff who have to live in the city and other things VS just buying them grown thousands of miles away and paying to get 'em to the city. Making the stawberries a 365 day a year crop has a cost. Same with most seasonal produce.
Now you COULD get a plot of land and grow your own veggies. But that takes time and effort to do and how many of the "you" are going to do what got humans to the point of trading oil for "artificial manure" and the world you now live in? While varied spices make some sense to have - are you willing to go back to how humans used to eat by having 10-20 items? (my grandma had 4 spices. Salt, pepper, garlic/onion powder. In a constrained world we can still do better than that with a limited impact) How about the expense of everything made of plastic now being hog bristle toothbrushes and scrubbing brushes? Things made of carved bones? Does humanity even have enough pigs and bones?
Now lets go with something simple. An ex-peak oil gent known as KMO had an interview where a story was told about a challenge made to the climate concerned youth. First agreement was made that people should do simple things. Then agreement was reached over the energy needed to dry clothes in the standard US electric tumble dryer. These youth were then asked if they would make a commitment to just outdoor air dry their clothes. The story concludes with most youth not willing to the simple thing of hanging clothes out to air dry.
The "you" can condemn corporations but modern western humans don't want to give up the Earl Butts cheap food, the 365 getting out of season things cheap, pushbutton ease, and for some things there are just not enough not-oil material to make other items without oil.
posted by rough ashlar at 2:20 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I'm conscious of the problem that a lot of individual action just lowers the costs for other people to engage in harmful activities, but...
I'm involved in a local organization that tries to do education on policy. We aren't explicitly about climate, though it is one of our 4 pillars (climate, housing, sustainable finance, mobillity). I'm coming off of us co-hosting a meeting on city zoning policy last night which was rather contentious, and marked by a different-than-our-usual crowd who was really more interested in shouting over discussion than in learning and engaging, and...
You may not be the answer, but you can choose to not deliberately obstruct the solutions.
Or, apparently, not.
posted by straw at 2:31 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm involved in a local organization that tries to do education on policy. We aren't explicitly about climate, though it is one of our 4 pillars (climate, housing, sustainable finance, mobillity). I'm coming off of us co-hosting a meeting on city zoning policy last night which was rather contentious, and marked by a different-than-our-usual crowd who was really more interested in shouting over discussion than in learning and engaging, and...
You may not be the answer, but you can choose to not deliberately obstruct the solutions.
Or, apparently, not.
posted by straw at 2:31 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
The way I read this is:
1) Always take as much individual action as you can, given the circumstances.
2) Don't beat yourself up if those circumstances preclude you from taking individual action.
So much of the current messaging about reducing carbon footprints is inequitable. It's designed so people who cut their travel by private jet in half can feel like they're making a difference while simultaneously shaming people for turning the thermostat up (or down) by two degrees. And that's what's "freeing" about the link's argument. It's not about the willful abandonment of agency in favor of ignorance, but rather the relief that the individual actions you cannot pursue aren't themselves responsible for destroying the planet. The world isn't forfeit because you bought a bottle of water that one time, nor will it be lost because you opted to drive to work instead of taking public transit so you could have a little more time to spend with your kids. There are much bigger forces at work here.
Do what you can. With great power comes great responsibility. And don't let anyone try to tell you that those without power share the same amount of responsibility.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
1) Always take as much individual action as you can, given the circumstances.
2) Don't beat yourself up if those circumstances preclude you from taking individual action.
So much of the current messaging about reducing carbon footprints is inequitable. It's designed so people who cut their travel by private jet in half can feel like they're making a difference while simultaneously shaming people for turning the thermostat up (or down) by two degrees. And that's what's "freeing" about the link's argument. It's not about the willful abandonment of agency in favor of ignorance, but rather the relief that the individual actions you cannot pursue aren't themselves responsible for destroying the planet. The world isn't forfeit because you bought a bottle of water that one time, nor will it be lost because you opted to drive to work instead of taking public transit so you could have a little more time to spend with your kids. There are much bigger forces at work here.
Do what you can. With great power comes great responsibility. And don't let anyone try to tell you that those without power share the same amount of responsibility.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
"The longer I live, the less future there is to worry about."
"The time for action is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering!"
"Nothing we do can change the past, but everything we do changes the future."
"I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem."
. . .
– Ashleigh Brilliant
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:40 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
"The time for action is past! Now is the time for senseless bickering!"
"Nothing we do can change the past, but everything we do changes the future."
"I don't have any solution, but I certainly admire the problem."
. . .
– Ashleigh Brilliant
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:40 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
The "you" can condemn corporations but modern western humans don't want to give up the Earl Butts cheap food, the 365 getting out of season things cheap, pushbutton ease, and for some things there are just not enough not-oil material to make other items without oil.
Sort of yes, but I think there's an important missing phrase here: "modern western humans don't want to give up" these things alone and without any sign that things will improve because of their individual action.
There are countless things I'd be happy to do without or modify my habits if I saw collective action working. Things I have done but finally got tired of because I was the sole person in my circles doing them. (This also goes for things like cancelling Spotify over Joe Rogan.) (Edited to add: There are many things I still do and still don't subscribe to Spotify - but there are things like "don't shop on Amazon" that I finally caved on...)
People are not just addicted to convenience - they're pack animals. Very few people want to stray from the pack or pay the social tax of doing so.
It's not merely "pushbutton ease" that people seek. There's a lot of friction involved in all of the individual choice options that would have very minimal impacts from one person or family, but huge impacts on a societal level.
posted by jzb at 2:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sort of yes, but I think there's an important missing phrase here: "modern western humans don't want to give up" these things alone and without any sign that things will improve because of their individual action.
There are countless things I'd be happy to do without or modify my habits if I saw collective action working. Things I have done but finally got tired of because I was the sole person in my circles doing them. (This also goes for things like cancelling Spotify over Joe Rogan.) (Edited to add: There are many things I still do and still don't subscribe to Spotify - but there are things like "don't shop on Amazon" that I finally caved on...)
People are not just addicted to convenience - they're pack animals. Very few people want to stray from the pack or pay the social tax of doing so.
It's not merely "pushbutton ease" that people seek. There's a lot of friction involved in all of the individual choice options that would have very minimal impacts from one person or family, but huge impacts on a societal level.
posted by jzb at 2:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm sure the oil/plastic industry makes a lot of money off of plastic recycling bins.
What kind of bin do you use to recycle a plastic recycling bin?
posted by mmrtnt at 2:45 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
What kind of bin do you use to recycle a plastic recycling bin?
posted by mmrtnt at 2:45 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
"I’m inclined to think of the modern employer through the lens as someone who perpetuates trauma, that is, as an abuser. "
*applauds this one*
But seriously, I'm not gonna beat myself up over wanting a real plastic straw instead of a paper one (they work terribly) or whatever when yes, one individual person without power/money can't do much.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:46 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
*applauds this one*
But seriously, I'm not gonna beat myself up over wanting a real plastic straw instead of a paper one (they work terribly) or whatever when yes, one individual person without power/money can't do much.
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:46 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just check out and live for pleasure.
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:59 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fluttering hellfire at 2:59 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
we are all cowboys in the panopticon
posted by graywyvern at 3:00 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by graywyvern at 3:00 PM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm entirely happy with individual action. I've never eaten at a Cracker Barrel, I quit Chick-Fil-A decades ago, Carl's Jr doesn't exist to me anymore because they once served me a dry bun as a burger at a drive thru on a road trip I can very easily and consistency edit companies and actions out of my life.
But if individual action is all that is going to be taken to solve this problem, and that seems to be the consensus of this chat here, then the planet is fucked.
posted by hippybear at 3:05 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
But if individual action is all that is going to be taken to solve this problem, and that seems to be the consensus of this chat here, then the planet is fucked.
posted by hippybear at 3:05 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Okay, I'm going to disagree with premise of the article. Yes, individual action can't solve every problem... But it can make a big difference. The article lists BP as major source of pollution... But that includes the CO2 output of all the oil they sell, most of which is used by individuals driving their cars. Choosing to buy or drive a car that's more efficient has an impact. Choosing to drive or fly more has an impact. The first world's middle class collectively causes vastly more carbon pollution than billionaires, and many of the collective problems exist primarily because of the upper middle class, not the ultra rich. We have a society based around big cars and big houses and sprawl not primarily because that's how the 1% want us to live, but because that's how a huge percentage of middle class people want to live. The biggest impediments to building dense, walkable cities isn't billionaires or corporations, it's a bunch of upper middle class home owners who don't want an apartment building to open across the street and make their home value decrease by 5%.
I know it's more complicated than that, and people make choices based on their environment... But any attempt to just hand waive and blame all the problems on the ultra rich or "100 corporations" feels like an attempt to avoid responsibility for the role we're playing in this. If you're posting on this site you're almost certainly in the wealthiest 5% of the human population. You're probably more environmentally conscious than most wealthy first worlders, but you still almost certainly pollute far more than the vast majority of people. Those 100 corporations are polluting in large part to serve people from the same socioeconomic class as you. And yes, it's hard to change things, but we do have power to make a difference, both collectively and individually.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 3:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
I know it's more complicated than that, and people make choices based on their environment... But any attempt to just hand waive and blame all the problems on the ultra rich or "100 corporations" feels like an attempt to avoid responsibility for the role we're playing in this. If you're posting on this site you're almost certainly in the wealthiest 5% of the human population. You're probably more environmentally conscious than most wealthy first worlders, but you still almost certainly pollute far more than the vast majority of people. Those 100 corporations are polluting in large part to serve people from the same socioeconomic class as you. And yes, it's hard to change things, but we do have power to make a difference, both collectively and individually.
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 3:12 PM on July 13, 2023 [10 favorites]
The article lists BP as major source of pollution... But that includes the CO2 output of all the oil they sell, most of which is used by individuals driving their cars.
I'm right now as I type trying to do research on this, but I suspect much of BP's output is used in industrial operations, both for power and for inputs for making plastics and other carbon-based products. I'm going to keep looking, but if you have a source for this assertion that can save my search skills, I'd like to know about it.
posted by hippybear at 3:15 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm right now as I type trying to do research on this, but I suspect much of BP's output is used in industrial operations, both for power and for inputs for making plastics and other carbon-based products. I'm going to keep looking, but if you have a source for this assertion that can save my search skills, I'd like to know about it.
posted by hippybear at 3:15 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's close, but a plurality of CO2 output, about 45%, is put out by consumer cars. Freight trucks and shipping make up a combined 40%... But it's not like all of those goods are being shipped to billionaires, or transported for the sheer glee of burning fossil fuels. Most of those consumer goods are being shipped to typical westerners, who are complicit in a system where they benefit from getting things cheaply and quickly.
https://www.alamy.com/global-co2-emissions-from-transport-carbon-footprint-infographic-greenhouse-gas-emission-by-transport-type-environmental-and-ecology-concept-true-image504032521.html
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 3:24 PM on July 13, 2023
https://www.alamy.com/global-co2-emissions-from-transport-carbon-footprint-infographic-greenhouse-gas-emission-by-transport-type-environmental-and-ecology-concept-true-image504032521.html
posted by ThisIsAThrowaway at 3:24 PM on July 13, 2023
but I suspect much of BP's output is used in industrial operations
Theoildrum.com has flow diagrams. They are a tad out of date, but the source they got them from will be noted.
Also note in the oil usage discussion how consumers/industry get mentioned and how few times the military gets mentioned.
The US government and US citizens don't want the US Dollar to stop being the international settlement method. Part of the reason the US Dollar works for settlement is the military spending. (US sailing warships to the keepers of the gwar field back at the end of WWII as an example)
posted by rough ashlar at 3:31 PM on July 13, 2023
Theoildrum.com has flow diagrams. They are a tad out of date, but the source they got them from will be noted.
Also note in the oil usage discussion how consumers/industry get mentioned and how few times the military gets mentioned.
The US government and US citizens don't want the US Dollar to stop being the international settlement method. Part of the reason the US Dollar works for settlement is the military spending. (US sailing warships to the keepers of the gwar field back at the end of WWII as an example)
posted by rough ashlar at 3:31 PM on July 13, 2023
The biggest impediments to building dense, walkable cities isn't billionaires or corporations, it's a bunch of upper middle class home owners who don't want an apartment building to open across the street and make their home value decrease by 5%.
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. We just had a major defeat here in Philadelphia over what is colloquially called the "poop building" which is a former dog park that was supposed to become apartments but will now become single family rowhomes because of a weird coalition of renters who believed that apartments would drive up rents and rich homeowners who bristled at the thought of poor people living nearby.
FTA:
“There was no doubt that it was just going to become slum housing,” said Nosta Glaser, a neighbor who signed on to a lawsuit contesting the property owner’s zoning permits. “Traffic congestion, parking, a blight to the skyline, blockage of sun to residential flora, noise pollution. The list just goes on and on.”
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS. We just had a major defeat here in Philadelphia over what is colloquially called the "poop building" which is a former dog park that was supposed to become apartments but will now become single family rowhomes because of a weird coalition of renters who believed that apartments would drive up rents and rich homeowners who bristled at the thought of poor people living nearby.
FTA:
“There was no doubt that it was just going to become slum housing,” said Nosta Glaser, a neighbor who signed on to a lawsuit contesting the property owner’s zoning permits. “Traffic congestion, parking, a blight to the skyline, blockage of sun to residential flora, noise pollution. The list just goes on and on.”
posted by grumpybear69 at 3:35 PM on July 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's close, but a plurality of CO2 output, about 45%, is put out by consumer cars. Freight trucks and shipping make up a combined 40%..
Odd numbers. %8 is a cited figure for farm equipment. So 45% + 40% + 8% is 93%. 7% is the US military and natural gas burned for electrical power?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:38 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Odd numbers. %8 is a cited figure for farm equipment. So 45% + 40% + 8% is 93%. 7% is the US military and natural gas burned for electrical power?
posted by rough ashlar at 3:38 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe the generalized you is not specifically at fault, but some individuals certainly are. And some of them are on Metafilter. Based on various news articles whose sources I did not personally examine, if an American makes roughly $100k they are in the top ten percent of the richest people worldwide, and that top ten percent is responsible for 50% of total CO2 emissions. We are not responsible for the travel industry as a whole, but rich folks flying for pleasure has an impact on the other 90% of the world. Moreover, some people on Metafilter are in positions of power in their industry. According to a certain Metatalk thread, some mefites are near billionaires or friends with billionaires.
This is all to say that the differing responses here probably differ for good reason. Some folks are clearly in the 90% that is being unduly harmed by things like climate change and don't have much they can do about it. Others share a chunk of the global responsibility and are happy to have articles tell them that they are off the hook as an individual.
I think the article's argument is much better when it comes to health concerns because while there are some villains legitimately poisoning the world, some of the concerns we cited in comments were things that were not widely known.
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is all to say that the differing responses here probably differ for good reason. Some folks are clearly in the 90% that is being unduly harmed by things like climate change and don't have much they can do about it. Others share a chunk of the global responsibility and are happy to have articles tell them that they are off the hook as an individual.
I think the article's argument is much better when it comes to health concerns because while there are some villains legitimately poisoning the world, some of the concerns we cited in comments were things that were not widely known.
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
(Sorry, I come off meaner than I intend to there. I'm kind of carrying over a continual argument I have with someone in my personal life. I didn't mean to (continue?) to drag down the thread.)
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:57 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 3:57 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The value of individual action is mostly signalling to others that you too share the values, to enable collective action. It doesn't substitute for joining a collective and it is indeed pissing into the wind considered on its own. But it isn't worthless.
Agree this is a stronger argument when it comes to health and workplace.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:09 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Agree this is a stronger argument when it comes to health and workplace.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 4:09 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's close, but a plurality of CO2 output, about 45%, is put out by consumer cars. Freight trucks and shipping make up a combined 40%...
It's worth pointing out that transport as a whole makes up 16.2% of emissions, and road transport 11.9%.
So if every internal combustion engine car/bike/SUV in the WORLD used for personal transport stopped tomorrow... that would cut emissions by a bit over 5%.
While industry emits 29.4% (energy+chemicals+cement), with agriculture 18.4%. Home and commercial energy use is another large sector at 17.5%.
All of which to say, decarbonising our road transport network is a worthwhile goal, but it's only a small part of the problem, and in either case to drive substantial change it requires collective action and systemic change - rather than putting the blame on yourself for whether or not you have yet swapped to a BEV; because for just one example, a BEV without a decarbonised grid achieves very little. Individual action matters in your own life, up to a point*, but when it comes to tackling the big issues? Leaving it as 'individual choice' alone cannot and will not solve them, and is simply a rhetorical dodge by the fossil fuel companies etc etc etc to avoid having to make any significant changes at all; they like their big fat profits just as they are - the top 6 made $219 billion profit last year, up 120% on the year before. The amount of profit they make every decade is just obscene. Yes, as wealthy westerners our individual impact is much greater than say, a subsistance farmer in Africa, but it will require action by a LOT of us, collectively, and that means government.
* even things like obesity, we're starting to realise that systemic factors, such as the heavy industrialising of our food chain, the additives, and price penalties for eating more healthily are very substantial for everybody, as well as the more well known causes such as poverty and food deserts. 'move more, eat less, eat more plants' is fine as far as it goes, but that's just another cop out that blames the 'greed and laziness' of fat people as the main -or only - factor when systemic issues are playing such a substantial role - you only have to look at constantly rising population obesity rates over the last 50 years, pretty much worldwide, to see that there is something going very wrong - and it can't be that every generation everywhere is just getting lazier and eating more because they're ALL indvidually more weak willed than the ones before.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:24 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's worth pointing out that transport as a whole makes up 16.2% of emissions, and road transport 11.9%.
So if every internal combustion engine car/bike/SUV in the WORLD used for personal transport stopped tomorrow... that would cut emissions by a bit over 5%.
While industry emits 29.4% (energy+chemicals+cement), with agriculture 18.4%. Home and commercial energy use is another large sector at 17.5%.
All of which to say, decarbonising our road transport network is a worthwhile goal, but it's only a small part of the problem, and in either case to drive substantial change it requires collective action and systemic change - rather than putting the blame on yourself for whether or not you have yet swapped to a BEV; because for just one example, a BEV without a decarbonised grid achieves very little. Individual action matters in your own life, up to a point*, but when it comes to tackling the big issues? Leaving it as 'individual choice' alone cannot and will not solve them, and is simply a rhetorical dodge by the fossil fuel companies etc etc etc to avoid having to make any significant changes at all; they like their big fat profits just as they are - the top 6 made $219 billion profit last year, up 120% on the year before. The amount of profit they make every decade is just obscene. Yes, as wealthy westerners our individual impact is much greater than say, a subsistance farmer in Africa, but it will require action by a LOT of us, collectively, and that means government.
* even things like obesity, we're starting to realise that systemic factors, such as the heavy industrialising of our food chain, the additives, and price penalties for eating more healthily are very substantial for everybody, as well as the more well known causes such as poverty and food deserts. 'move more, eat less, eat more plants' is fine as far as it goes, but that's just another cop out that blames the 'greed and laziness' of fat people as the main -or only - factor when systemic issues are playing such a substantial role - you only have to look at constantly rising population obesity rates over the last 50 years, pretty much worldwide, to see that there is something going very wrong - and it can't be that every generation everywhere is just getting lazier and eating more because they're ALL indvidually more weak willed than the ones before.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:24 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Sorry to be a downer. I know that the idea that individuals can only do so much is freeing for a lot of people, but for me it only adds to my sense of fatalism. If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
In my case, chronic depression. I don't recommend it.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:36 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
In my case, chronic depression. I don't recommend it.
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 4:36 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
If individual action is insufficient and the people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse, what does that leave?
I dunno, comrade, but I got some friends with some ideas.
posted by thivaia at 4:40 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
with agriculture 18.4%.
The 8% I cited was 'for tractors'. 10% for 'artificial manure' (AKA NPK + various 'cides) is reasonable given the energy needed for the N and bulk toxins.
people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse
What's the people in power's plan for a big solar flare hitting the planet? It used to be having years of food stored. Now, not so much. Was called waste during the Reagan years. Upside for the power class is the financial chicanery would be hand-waved away. They'll still try and collect your student loans if you lived through a downed power grid/your iPhone no longer i-fon'n.
Because unless SPACE FORCE is as wonderfully large as the secret space force believers tell tall tales of addressing a big solar flare in space isn't something humanity can do much about at the moment.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:27 PM on July 13, 2023
The 8% I cited was 'for tractors'. 10% for 'artificial manure' (AKA NPK + various 'cides) is reasonable given the energy needed for the N and bulk toxins.
people in power seem to be actively courting the apocalypse
What's the people in power's plan for a big solar flare hitting the planet? It used to be having years of food stored. Now, not so much. Was called waste during the Reagan years. Upside for the power class is the financial chicanery would be hand-waved away. They'll still try and collect your student loans if you lived through a downed power grid/your iPhone no longer i-fon'n.
Because unless SPACE FORCE is as wonderfully large as the secret space force believers tell tall tales of addressing a big solar flare in space isn't something humanity can do much about at the moment.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:27 PM on July 13, 2023
But that includes the CO2 output of all the oil they sell, most of which is used by individuals driving their cars. Choosing to buy or drive a car that's more efficient has an impact.
Yes, but the point is that just making higher efficiency mandatory has a greater impact.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:41 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yes, but the point is that just making higher efficiency mandatory has a greater impact.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:41 PM on July 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The answer is militancy
That doesn't necessarily mean violence, but it might
Reform movements work a lot better when they're backed up by something the powers that be find a lot less palatable
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
That doesn't necessarily mean violence, but it might
Reform movements work a lot better when they're backed up by something the powers that be find a lot less palatable
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
In June of 2019 hundreds of climate activists shut down a coal mine in Germany for a day by simply being there in such numbers that workers couldn't go in.
They were "forcibly removed", which is journalist speak for "beaten and dragged away" by police.
Later a spokesperson for the mine said that they were violent criminals.
Anything effective will be labeled as violence, including simply sitting down, because those in power know that presenting climate activists as violent justifies almost everything in the eyes of much of the population.
posted by sotonohito at 7:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
They were "forcibly removed", which is journalist speak for "beaten and dragged away" by police.
Later a spokesperson for the mine said that they were violent criminals.
Anything effective will be labeled as violence, including simply sitting down, because those in power know that presenting climate activists as violent justifies almost everything in the eyes of much of the population.
posted by sotonohito at 7:42 PM on July 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm baffled by the false dichotomy here - individual action vs gov't mandated-action. Why not both? Also, it's obvious that one person's actions don't make a difference, but the whole point of individual action is the encouragement of others to do the same. Suddenly individual action becomes group action, which is much more potent.
posted by storybored at 8:04 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by storybored at 8:04 PM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm baffled by the false dichotomy here - individual action vs gov't mandated-action. Why not both?
The problem is that individual action can preclude group action. To give an example, whenever the topic of data collection comes up here, you almost always get people talking about how individuals can take personal actions to protect their own data and limit their own exposure. Which is good to some degree. But it oftentimes reframes the problem as being that individuals aren't careful, instead of that companies are hoovering up data without any care for it, which can make people view the problem as being on the individual level, which in turn makes it harder to address as the group problem it is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
The problem is that individual action can preclude group action. To give an example, whenever the topic of data collection comes up here, you almost always get people talking about how individuals can take personal actions to protect their own data and limit their own exposure. Which is good to some degree. But it oftentimes reframes the problem as being that individuals aren't careful, instead of that companies are hoovering up data without any care for it, which can make people view the problem as being on the individual level, which in turn makes it harder to address as the group problem it is.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:43 PM on July 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
Individual choices (within the system) can't solve systemic problems. The question is how we get to choices that change the system. Voting/voter education and direct action (e.g., protests) are clearly part of that but I don't know what else to do.
Upthread someone was talking about the problem with getting more housing density/walkability being NIMBY homeowners. Something I read a while back that comes back to my mind in every discussion about housing is that as long as the biggest asset most people have is their home, we'll never get rid of homelessness. And I think that's true, but fixing it involves such a huge paradigm shift that I can't even conceive of what modern western society would look like afterward.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:36 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Upthread someone was talking about the problem with getting more housing density/walkability being NIMBY homeowners. Something I read a while back that comes back to my mind in every discussion about housing is that as long as the biggest asset most people have is their home, we'll never get rid of homelessness. And I think that's true, but fixing it involves such a huge paradigm shift that I can't even conceive of what modern western society would look like afterward.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 9:36 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
You are not the answer.
be wary of information that conforms with your overall hypothesis.
just saying.
posted by philip-random at 10:55 PM on July 13, 2023
be wary of information that conforms with your overall hypothesis.
just saying.
posted by philip-random at 10:55 PM on July 13, 2023
Maybe it's the Gen Xer in me, but I have to say this article reflects an awful lot of what I've been thinking and feeling for... most of my adult life.
posted by Rykey at 8:25 AM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 8:25 AM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
just saying.
wakes up, checks MeFi, discovers interesting link and related discussion, reaches bottom and remembers he already commented on it ... ? Or more to the point, started commenting, realized it was rather thin and snarky and thought otherwise ... except he seemed to have posted it anyway ... ?
Anyway. Sorry.
Yet I'd be lying if I said I didn't still feel that way -- that enthusiastically agreeing that I Am Not The Answer does somewhat conform to a perspective that allows me to not be culpable for at least some of what's horribly wrong with the world, because complexity and rich fucks with all the guns (metaphorically speaking).
I think the key word is complexity. Or as came up in recent discussion with a few friends, there does seem to be a lack of consensus on what complex even means. What it isn't is a synonym for complicated. A complicated problem is difficult to figure out but one individual with the right training etc generally can ... like how to fix an automatic transmission.
Whereas complexity, by definition, is beyond even genius level IQs to resolve on their own. And pretty much every problem that involves humans is complex -- even one's own personal depression, for instance.
So what to do?
It's simple. It's complex. It's something most of us have been doing our whole lives. You develop your network (some might call it a team but that feels way too organized). You identify those individuals (friends, neighbours, colleagues, family members etc) who have skills and training and insights etc that you lack (or certainly go beyond yours in certain directions) and ... THE KEY PART ... you develop bonds of trust with them. You don't necessarily just accept everything they say to be true, but you trust where it's coming from, you know them well enough to feel comfortable with their motives.
So suddenly it's not just one set of eyes examining (and acting on) a problem, it's two-three-seven-seventy, seven hundred ... etc.
How do you solve a complex problem? With complexity. But how do you organize complexity?
I'm pretty sure you don't. Or if so, it's a far more complex problem than suggested in the article ... and by much of the commentary in this thread. ie: get political, join an organization etc. Not that that isn't part of it. Or put it this way. There is no political solution to the profound and unfathomably complex mess we (humanity) are in. But politics are part of it. As are the sciences, the arts, sociology, psychology, the law, communications ...
And indeed, one of the key takeaways from that discussion we had was communication: we must find a way to do way better. For instance, covid, if it was nothing else, it was a stress test of our culture's communications systems ... and those systems failed*. Often (usually?) because the bonds of trust just weren't there. It was assumed that expert informed positions would be accepted and acted upon with diligence, but way too often they weren't.
anyway ... tldr: I disagree rather profoundly with "You Are Not The Answer". It's not that simple. In fact, it's complex. I don't think Benjamin (writer of the piece) really knows what complex means ... but given effective feedback from his network, he may get there.
* Some places worse than others. But people died pretty much everywhere on the planet that didn't need to.
posted by philip-random at 9:57 AM on July 14, 2023
wakes up, checks MeFi, discovers interesting link and related discussion, reaches bottom and remembers he already commented on it ... ? Or more to the point, started commenting, realized it was rather thin and snarky and thought otherwise ... except he seemed to have posted it anyway ... ?
Anyway. Sorry.
Yet I'd be lying if I said I didn't still feel that way -- that enthusiastically agreeing that I Am Not The Answer does somewhat conform to a perspective that allows me to not be culpable for at least some of what's horribly wrong with the world, because complexity and rich fucks with all the guns (metaphorically speaking).
I think the key word is complexity. Or as came up in recent discussion with a few friends, there does seem to be a lack of consensus on what complex even means. What it isn't is a synonym for complicated. A complicated problem is difficult to figure out but one individual with the right training etc generally can ... like how to fix an automatic transmission.
Whereas complexity, by definition, is beyond even genius level IQs to resolve on their own. And pretty much every problem that involves humans is complex -- even one's own personal depression, for instance.
So what to do?
It's simple. It's complex. It's something most of us have been doing our whole lives. You develop your network (some might call it a team but that feels way too organized). You identify those individuals (friends, neighbours, colleagues, family members etc) who have skills and training and insights etc that you lack (or certainly go beyond yours in certain directions) and ... THE KEY PART ... you develop bonds of trust with them. You don't necessarily just accept everything they say to be true, but you trust where it's coming from, you know them well enough to feel comfortable with their motives.
So suddenly it's not just one set of eyes examining (and acting on) a problem, it's two-three-seven-seventy, seven hundred ... etc.
How do you solve a complex problem? With complexity. But how do you organize complexity?
I'm pretty sure you don't. Or if so, it's a far more complex problem than suggested in the article ... and by much of the commentary in this thread. ie: get political, join an organization etc. Not that that isn't part of it. Or put it this way. There is no political solution to the profound and unfathomably complex mess we (humanity) are in. But politics are part of it. As are the sciences, the arts, sociology, psychology, the law, communications ...
And indeed, one of the key takeaways from that discussion we had was communication: we must find a way to do way better. For instance, covid, if it was nothing else, it was a stress test of our culture's communications systems ... and those systems failed*. Often (usually?) because the bonds of trust just weren't there. It was assumed that expert informed positions would be accepted and acted upon with diligence, but way too often they weren't.
anyway ... tldr: I disagree rather profoundly with "You Are Not The Answer". It's not that simple. In fact, it's complex. I don't think Benjamin (writer of the piece) really knows what complex means ... but given effective feedback from his network, he may get there.
* Some places worse than others. But people died pretty much everywhere on the planet that didn't need to.
posted by philip-random at 9:57 AM on July 14, 2023
Remember ACORN? It worked. That's why the Republicans dismantled it, because it frightend them by working.
Did it actually work, then?
posted by kingdead at 10:16 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Did it actually work, then?
posted by kingdead at 10:16 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Did it actually work, then?
Yes, it did. Someone taking a sledgehammer to a functioning machine to destroy it doesn't make it retroactively non-functional.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yes, it did. Someone taking a sledgehammer to a functioning machine to destroy it doesn't make it retroactively non-functional.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:21 AM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Individual action is rarely, if ever, meaningful at the macro-level
In my experience, action by an individual can sometimes have a big impact. There are two things you need: a good idea, and somebody who can do something about it. You have to be unconcerned that you won't get paid and you won't get credit.
Let me give you an example. I like ginger beer. I wanted an extra strong ginger beer. One day I had the opportunity to talk to a fellow who runs a ginger beer company. I said, "You should make an extra strong one." He said, "that's a good idea!", pulled a piece of paper out of his pocket, and wrote himself a note. So now there's one on the market that was made to my specifications. It's good!
I've used this technique to change the layout of a Metro station and a number of other things. Put your idea out there and you can make things happen. Not all the time, that's for sure. But sometimes.
posted by The Half Language Plant at 11:02 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
In my experience, action by an individual can sometimes have a big impact. There are two things you need: a good idea, and somebody who can do something about it. You have to be unconcerned that you won't get paid and you won't get credit.
Let me give you an example. I like ginger beer. I wanted an extra strong ginger beer. One day I had the opportunity to talk to a fellow who runs a ginger beer company. I said, "You should make an extra strong one." He said, "that's a good idea!", pulled a piece of paper out of his pocket, and wrote himself a note. So now there's one on the market that was made to my specifications. It's good!
I've used this technique to change the layout of a Metro station and a number of other things. Put your idea out there and you can make things happen. Not all the time, that's for sure. But sometimes.
posted by The Half Language Plant at 11:02 AM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm totally the last great man of history and I need your help to carry the mantle when I can't go on.
We're set up to write history books about individuals and the choices made to make individuals great -- and a collective vision is also co-opted to divide people into in-groups and out-groups. We need collective vision that includes people, but we have to start with the people who show up and help out right now.
I'm -- we're -- part of the problem and part of the solutions. This is solveable if we're together. We've even got the business excuse of ESG for doing what we want (good things for people and the environment) and tagging on excuses later.
posted by k3ninho at 4:21 PM on July 14, 2023
We're set up to write history books about individuals and the choices made to make individuals great -- and a collective vision is also co-opted to divide people into in-groups and out-groups. We need collective vision that includes people, but we have to start with the people who show up and help out right now.
I'm -- we're -- part of the problem and part of the solutions. This is solveable if we're together. We've even got the business excuse of ESG for doing what we want (good things for people and the environment) and tagging on excuses later.
posted by k3ninho at 4:21 PM on July 14, 2023
How about this: You can be the solution (if you are committed to taking brave, principled, consistent action with others toward common goals).
posted by latkes at 8:32 PM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by latkes at 8:32 PM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
How about this: All social justice movements started with someone's individual action.
posted by storybored at 9:58 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 9:58 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
The environmental problem and social justice problems are two different things. I DO hope that individual action can help the latter; I do not believe it can stop the disaster of the former.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:06 AM on July 15, 2023
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:06 AM on July 15, 2023
The Half Language Plant, those were all actions by more than one person.
And to my knowledge, story bored, no social justice movements began with a single person's action. Though, I'm open to being corrected.
posted by CPAnarchist at 8:20 AM on July 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
And to my knowledge, story bored, no social justice movements began with a single person's action. Though, I'm open to being corrected.
posted by CPAnarchist at 8:20 AM on July 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
We care what wins movements, not what starts them, as the latter is just great man myth. Afaik social justice movements succeeded in part through how their interacted with the national security interests vs communism. Also, conversely ecological movements were judged largely irrelevant to national security, hence them being far less successful.
We'll seemingly achieve little by methods used so far, including those which worked in social justice movements. We'll never solve this without governments though either. Yet, nobody said the government who does the most against your nations' carbon emissions must be your own government.
Imagine if your best way to fight climate change was being a self-informed spy for Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Mexico, or even China? Imagine if governments knew they could never trust their citizenry when doing things like burning coal, oil, and gas. Imagine if success requires a war in which the US and China target one another's oil & gas suppliers? etc.
Individual actions matter in how they influence governments, but individuals need to look outside the box.. way way outside.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:42 AM on July 17, 2023
We'll seemingly achieve little by methods used so far, including those which worked in social justice movements. We'll never solve this without governments though either. Yet, nobody said the government who does the most against your nations' carbon emissions must be your own government.
Imagine if your best way to fight climate change was being a self-informed spy for Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Mexico, or even China? Imagine if governments knew they could never trust their citizenry when doing things like burning coal, oil, and gas. Imagine if success requires a war in which the US and China target one another's oil & gas suppliers? etc.
Individual actions matter in how they influence governments, but individuals need to look outside the box.. way way outside.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:42 AM on July 17, 2023
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posted by tiny frying pan at 11:32 AM on July 13, 2023 [6 favorites]