Nobody drives in San Francisco, there’s too much traffic
August 14, 2023 10:34 AM Subscribe
One day after California green-lighted a massive expansion of driverless robotaxis in San Francisco, the implications became clear.
At about 11 p.m. Friday, as many as 10 Cruise driverless taxis blocked two narrow streets in the center of the city’s lively North Beach bar and restaurant district. All traffic came to a standstill on Vallejo Street and around two corners on Grant. Human-driven cars sat stuck behind and in between the robotaxis, which might as well have been boulders: no one knew how to move them.
No cones are believed to be involved.
At about 11 p.m. Friday, as many as 10 Cruise driverless taxis blocked two narrow streets in the center of the city’s lively North Beach bar and restaurant district. All traffic came to a standstill on Vallejo Street and around two corners on Grant. Human-driven cars sat stuck behind and in between the robotaxis, which might as well have been boulders: no one knew how to move them.
No cones are believed to be involved.
I assume the operating companies were charged with traffic violations, appropriately scaled-up for corporate incomes, right? Right?
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2023 [58 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:48 AM on August 14, 2023 [58 favorites]
Don't believe the hype: those taxis knew exactly what they were doing.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 10:50 AM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 10:50 AM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
Cruise blamed cellphone carriers for the problem.
Sure, two tons of steel and batteries at the sole whim of cell service. Totally reasonable.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2023 [41 favorites]
Sure, two tons of steel and batteries at the sole whim of cell service. Totally reasonable.
posted by uncleozzy at 10:52 AM on August 14, 2023 [41 favorites]
Maybe it's benevolent. People keep agitating for car-free cities!
"One of the three yes votes was cast by Commissioner John Reynolds, who served as head lawyer at Cruise before appointed to the CPUC by Gov. Gavin Newsom." bwah hah hah. Of course.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
"One of the three yes votes was cast by Commissioner John Reynolds, who served as head lawyer at Cruise before appointed to the CPUC by Gov. Gavin Newsom." bwah hah hah. Of course.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:54 AM on August 14, 2023 [24 favorites]
Don't believe the hype: those taxis knew exactly what they were doing.
"I'm not going anywhere, you don't understand what those disgusting meatbags start doing the moment I let them inside, if you could see in near-UV my seats look like a Jackson Pollock painting."
posted by mhoye at 10:55 AM on August 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
"I'm not going anywhere, you don't understand what those disgusting meatbags start doing the moment I let them inside, if you could see in near-UV my seats look like a Jackson Pollock painting."
posted by mhoye at 10:55 AM on August 14, 2023 [11 favorites]
These are cluttering up Austin's downtown and campus-area streets as well. Not clogging yet, but they do exhibit some odd behavior. They are creepy (I have experienced multiple times already being alone in my car at night at a stop light and these Cruise vehicles being behind me, to the side of me, and waiting at all other sides of the intersection... it's unquestionably unsettling). It also bothers me that once they start charging to carry passengers, it'll be yet another avenue where revenue passes from locals directly into the coffers of some distant corporate entity, putting local human drivers out of work entirely.
If I was in charge, I would have stipulated that in exchange for permission to use local streets to collect data and improve driving AI the company would be required to publicly share any data their cars collected in a freely-accessible data repository. Data gathered on public streets should be available to everyone so the driverless taxicab market can be competetive.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
If I was in charge, I would have stipulated that in exchange for permission to use local streets to collect data and improve driving AI the company would be required to publicly share any data their cars collected in a freely-accessible data repository. Data gathered on public streets should be available to everyone so the driverless taxicab market can be competetive.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [23 favorites]
A recent "Hard Fork" podcast interviewed a couple of the anti-car activists who have been involved with monkeywrenching self-driving taxis. They talked about demystifying the driverless notion in that someone had to come move the cones. There were people out there who had to do this work. Generally low-paid/exploited people who were already toiling behind the scenes but now were pulled into the public eye.
The hosts of the show are certainly fans of technology and "believers" that good technology is a plus for humanity. This argument was laid bare by the activists who talked in terms of climate collapse and adding more vehicles to the road. They did mention that Cruise was offering training to fire departments on how to contact them and try to identify issues (which seemed absurd to me).
I don't do the interview justice here.
I appreciate this post!!
posted by zerobyproxy at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
The hosts of the show are certainly fans of technology and "believers" that good technology is a plus for humanity. This argument was laid bare by the activists who talked in terms of climate collapse and adding more vehicles to the road. They did mention that Cruise was offering training to fire departments on how to contact them and try to identify issues (which seemed absurd to me).
I don't do the interview justice here.
I appreciate this post!!
posted by zerobyproxy at 10:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
"I'm not going anywhere, you don't understand what those disgusting meatbags start doing the moment I let them inside, if you could see in near-UV my seats look like a Jackson Pollock painting."
Well..
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well..
posted by Artw at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
These Cruise things are a goddamn abomination.
Not that Tesla's spiffy "FSD" "beta" (actually pre-alpha) solution is any better.
20-odd years ago I assumed we'd have to invest in a lot of paint to make autonomy actually work here.
Look how beautiful Japanese streeting is. Given Elog expects FSD to add a couple trillion to Tesla's market cap, one would think he could fund the necessary investment in upgrading our infrastructure.
(the Tesla that killed the Apple engineer back ~5 years ago would have lived if Caltrans hadn't put a crash barrier in the middle of what really looked like a lane of travel)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not that Tesla's spiffy "FSD" "beta" (actually pre-alpha) solution is any better.
20-odd years ago I assumed we'd have to invest in a lot of paint to make autonomy actually work here.
Look how beautiful Japanese streeting is. Given Elog expects FSD to add a couple trillion to Tesla's market cap, one would think he could fund the necessary investment in upgrading our infrastructure.
(the Tesla that killed the Apple engineer back ~5 years ago would have lived if Caltrans hadn't put a crash barrier in the middle of what really looked like a lane of travel)
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:57 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cruise's explanation that it was a cellular connectivity problem is outrageous. Their cars only move if the cell phone network works? That's a laugh in San Francisco in general. And what if there's a real emergency, say an earthquake? Will their robots all freeze on the roads blocking access to emergency vehicles and evacuation routes?
posted by Nelson at 11:05 AM on August 14, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 11:05 AM on August 14, 2023 [48 favorites]
Given Elog expects FSD to add a couple trillion to Tesla's market cap, one would think he could fund the necessary investment in upgrading our infrastructure.
When our elongated muskrat associate does anything that helps anyone but him, that happened by accident. Flint, Michigan is still waiting for that call back.
(the Tesla that killed the Apple engineer back ~5 years ago would have lived if Caltrans hadn't put a crash barrier in the middle of what really looked like a lane of travel)
People doing things like "blaming CalTrans for Tesla's negligent engineering killing people" is one of the reasons Tesla's negligent engineering is going to keep killing people.
posted by mhoye at 11:06 AM on August 14, 2023 [25 favorites]
When our elongated muskrat associate does anything that helps anyone but him, that happened by accident. Flint, Michigan is still waiting for that call back.
(the Tesla that killed the Apple engineer back ~5 years ago would have lived if Caltrans hadn't put a crash barrier in the middle of what really looked like a lane of travel)
People doing things like "blaming CalTrans for Tesla's negligent engineering killing people" is one of the reasons Tesla's negligent engineering is going to keep killing people.
posted by mhoye at 11:06 AM on August 14, 2023 [25 favorites]
I'm struck by the excuse Cruise made about LTE networks in the city being overburdened because of the music festival. Why would these cars rely on the old LTE networks and why aren't they 5G-capable? Isn't higher network capacity one of the main points of 5G? And in San Francisco of all places?
posted by theory at 11:07 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by theory at 11:07 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would a jury convict you for taking a tire iron to the window and trying to move one of these things? Who's going to find out first?
posted by uncleozzy at 11:11 AM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by uncleozzy at 11:11 AM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Among other things I wonder, I wonder how long it would take a 6 watt "hobby" engraving blue laser to punch a sub-millimetre hole through a tire sidewall. I am thinking not very long at all, because rubber is black and extremely burnable. Because one could really easily mount a laser on the bottom of a walking stick or crutch or something like that add slow leaks to car tires all day with no one the wiser.
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:16 AM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 11:16 AM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Better off with an infrared laser, I would have thought. A blue beam is going to show up in the smoke coming off the tire and point straight to where the operator is.
posted by flabdablet at 11:19 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:19 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm struck by the excuse Cruise made about LTE networks in the city being overburdened because of the music festival. Why would these cars rely on the old LTE networks and why aren't they 5G-capable? Isn't higher network capacity one of the main points of 5G?
I worked on the Embarcadero for five years (before C19) and watched these cars driving around in circles get trained together. The only up-to-date thing on them is likely to be the logo on their sides, which has changed several times over the years.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 11:21 AM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
I worked on the Embarcadero for five years (before C19) and watched these cars driving around in circles get trained together. The only up-to-date thing on them is likely to be the logo on their sides, which has changed several times over the years.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 11:21 AM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Here in Austin, it's become routine for my friends to send me texts about intersections or bike lanes blocked by these things.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
When Uber was testing 'driverless' cars in Pittsburgh it was still pretty easy to make the dirver flip you off if they ended up behind you. I normally drive slow, but you point your ridiculous lidar at me from behind and I'm going to drive extra slow.
posted by Catblack at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Catblack at 11:24 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Being in San Francisco, over the past week I have witnessed these idiot cars, they are all over the place, doing really stupid moves such as just slowing to a stop on a multi lane street in the middle of the block for no reason, making a left turn from an inappropriate location in a complicated intersection. If these cars can be bricked so easily, then if there is a disaster, the streets everywhere here will be blocked for who knows how long. Years ago it took me a day of internet searching and calling to find out the state public utilities commission was running the show so I could register complaints then about these cars. The PUC never responded. This whole program has been forced upon us by large corporations looking for more profits. All at the expense of us, the people who live here. The city itself is just allowing this to happen. Yeah, nobody died, yet, but someone will. And it’s clear who will not be blamed.
posted by njohnson23 at 11:31 AM on August 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 11:31 AM on August 14, 2023 [18 favorites]
Gack!!
I live in Vancouver and have a gruesome commute. I'm a first time car owner; I had to get one because the slack jawed goons who run my place of work moved our warehouse(we needed a much larger one) out to a desolate industrial park poorly served by transit. One of the guns had his commute cut by more than half........
I go over a bridge that has the dubious distinction of being the #1 site for car accidents in BC every year, and through the Massey Tunnel which was cutting edge civic planning in the 1950s and seriously is about 2 decades out of date. It's about 40 minutes to get to work, coming home is much quicker, but it pretty much means dealing with some of the very worst traffic that Vancouver has to offer.
The thought of these abominations entering the fray makes me cringe so much I must look like a bloody raison.
I can just see the wannabe tech bro cheer leading squad pushing hard for these here, because after all, all tech is good tech, right.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:38 AM on August 14, 2023
I live in Vancouver and have a gruesome commute. I'm a first time car owner; I had to get one because the slack jawed goons who run my place of work moved our warehouse(we needed a much larger one) out to a desolate industrial park poorly served by transit. One of the guns had his commute cut by more than half........
I go over a bridge that has the dubious distinction of being the #1 site for car accidents in BC every year, and through the Massey Tunnel which was cutting edge civic planning in the 1950s and seriously is about 2 decades out of date. It's about 40 minutes to get to work, coming home is much quicker, but it pretty much means dealing with some of the very worst traffic that Vancouver has to offer.
The thought of these abominations entering the fray makes me cringe so much I must look like a bloody raison.
I can just see the wannabe tech bro cheer leading squad pushing hard for these here, because after all, all tech is good tech, right.
posted by Phlegmco(tm) at 11:38 AM on August 14, 2023
"I'm not going anywhere, you don't understand what those disgusting meatbags start doing the moment I let them inside, if you could see in near-UV my seats look like a Jackson Pollock painting."
Oh god, I hope it's urine
posted by NoMich at 11:40 AM on August 14, 2023
Oh god, I hope it's urine
posted by NoMich at 11:40 AM on August 14, 2023
I may not know enough about the background tech, but why do "self-driving" robot cars fail when they have no network access? Do they not have independent offline maps and programming? Are they in fact being "driven" by remote human operators for anything but the most routine operation? This summary implies that. This would make them drones, not autonomous. And if so, what is the ratio of cars to human operators? What are their working conditions? What are their qualifications? What is their screening for intoxication/impairment/mental illness like? We demand minimum standards for air traffic controllers, and they are not operating the airplanes remotely. If there are human operators involved in controlling these cars as drones, are they then liable for injuries sustained by pedestrians, bicyclists, and passengers? If they were intoxicated, are then then subject to criminal prosecution for DUI?
posted by meehawl at 11:43 AM on August 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by meehawl at 11:43 AM on August 14, 2023 [14 favorites]
I wonder how long it would take a 6 watt "hobby" engraving blue laser to punch a sub-millimetre hole through a tire sidewall
...
Better off with an infrared laser, I would have thought. A blue beam is going to show up in the smoke coming off the tire and point straight to where the operator is.
Well this is definitely one of the more massively fucking stupid ideas I've seen on Metafilter in a good while. Lithium and gasoline are volatile. I wonder how long would it take before said lasers start fires in said cars and set them and people within and without aflame. Or someone's retinas get burned out.
Not sure what the solutions are when the local municipality is in the bag for conglomerates operating these self-driving car networks, but extralegal acts of environmental justice might have unintended consequences. ffs
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
...
Better off with an infrared laser, I would have thought. A blue beam is going to show up in the smoke coming off the tire and point straight to where the operator is.
Well this is definitely one of the more massively fucking stupid ideas I've seen on Metafilter in a good while. Lithium and gasoline are volatile. I wonder how long would it take before said lasers start fires in said cars and set them and people within and without aflame. Or someone's retinas get burned out.
Not sure what the solutions are when the local municipality is in the bag for conglomerates operating these self-driving car networks, but extralegal acts of environmental justice might have unintended consequences. ffs
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wonder if this is related to a random Cruise vehicle I saw poorly pulled over on the side of a very steep and winding road in McLaren Park a few days later on Sunday. The back of the car was still very much in the middle of the lane and cars going down the very steep road likely couldn't see easily/fast enough due to their downhill speed and the curves of the road. Someone's going to get hurt.
posted by flamk at 11:51 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by flamk at 11:51 AM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
ruise blamed cellphone carriers for the problem. At 11:01 p.m. Friday, Peskin sent a text message to Cruise government affairs manager Lauren Wilson. At 8:25 a.m. Saturday, she texted back: “As I understand it, outside lands impacted LTE cell connectivity and ability for RA advisors to route cars.”
ahahaha fuck u.
I’m kinda pro-robotaxi but if this is where we are for quality then nope
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
ahahaha fuck u.
I’m kinda pro-robotaxi but if this is where we are for quality then nope
posted by Going To Maine at 11:54 AM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Every robotaxi incident should be treated like a plane crash)
posted by Going To Maine at 11:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 11:56 AM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
San Franciscans Are Having Sex in Robotaxis, and Nobody Is Talking About It
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 12:11 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of my favourite bits of trivia is to note that Johnny Cab's voice in the original Total Recall is Robert Picardo, the Emergency Medical Hologram on ST:Voyager. The cabbie head was modeled on Picardo, too.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:12 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:12 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
The obvious "what if someone hacks the system" question has always been the obvious hole in any claims that remote cars are safe, but now I'm rooting for hackers to send all of these cars to surround and block the driveways of every politician who voted for them. And honk and flash their lights.
posted by emjaybee at 12:14 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 12:14 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well this is definitely one of the more massively fucking stupid ideas I've seen on Metafilter in a good while.
Must be new here.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Must be new here.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 12:16 PM on August 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
The Standard has spoken to four separate Cruise car riders who said they’ve had sex or hooked up in the driverless vehicles in San Francisco over recent months and have provided ride receipts. The Standard was unable to find a source who said they’d had sex in a Waymo.
“The vast majority of our riders are respectful and follow our rider rules,” a Waymo spokesman said.
"Our autonomous fleet is saving itself for marriage to its girlfriend, who lives in Canada; you wouldn't know her," a Waymo spokesperson said.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
“The vast majority of our riders are respectful and follow our rider rules,” a Waymo spokesman said.
"Our autonomous fleet is saving itself for marriage to its girlfriend, who lives in Canada; you wouldn't know her," a Waymo spokesperson said.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
this is definitely one of the more massively fucking stupid ideas I've seen on Metafilter in a good while.
Hey, if we're going to be massively fucking stupid we might as well first be smart from the very beginning.
posted by flabdablet at 12:28 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hey, if we're going to be massively fucking stupid we might as well first be smart from the very beginning.
posted by flabdablet at 12:28 PM on August 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
>doing things like "blaming CalTrans for Tesla's negligent engineering killing people"
My above statement was not false. As is the guy wouldn't have died in the crash if he hadn't been engrossed on his iPhone at this critical juncture. And he wouldn't have been killed in the crash if Tesla "Autopilot" software hadn't had been as buggy as hell in these situations.
Case (Sz Huang et al vs Tesla Inc. et al) is still pending the Findings of Fact from the judge/jury apparently.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:58 PM on August 14, 2023
My above statement was not false. As is the guy wouldn't have died in the crash if he hadn't been engrossed on his iPhone at this critical juncture. And he wouldn't have been killed in the crash if Tesla "Autopilot" software hadn't had been as buggy as hell in these situations.
Case (Sz Huang et al vs Tesla Inc. et al) is still pending the Findings of Fact from the judge/jury apparently.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:58 PM on August 14, 2023
>who said they’ve had sex or hooked up in the driverless vehicles
Tinder + Waymo . . . I'm gonna be a trillionaire
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:00 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tinder + Waymo . . . I'm gonna be a trillionaire
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:00 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Booking a car to Autonomous Makeout Point
and there, hanging from the door handle, was a mechanical gripper! GASP
posted by phooky at 1:07 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
and there, hanging from the door handle, was a mechanical gripper! GASP
posted by phooky at 1:07 PM on August 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
A thought:
I am wondering if someone (read: lawyers) feel they can now withstand criminal/civil prosecution for when one of these cars either hurts someone as a result of an accident they caused or results in the indirect causation of harm because of some inaction like failing to yield to an emergency vehicle. One or both of these would seem inevitable.
And by ‘withstand’ I mean both the financial consequence and whatever legal precedent a judgement against them might result in if a case goes to court. If they didn’t feel they could survive these outcomes, I believe they’d still be driving in circles down by the Embarcardero.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 1:09 PM on August 14, 2023
I am wondering if someone (read: lawyers) feel they can now withstand criminal/civil prosecution for when one of these cars either hurts someone as a result of an accident they caused or results in the indirect causation of harm because of some inaction like failing to yield to an emergency vehicle. One or both of these would seem inevitable.
And by ‘withstand’ I mean both the financial consequence and whatever legal precedent a judgement against them might result in if a case goes to court. If they didn’t feel they could survive these outcomes, I believe they’d still be driving in circles down by the Embarcardero.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 1:09 PM on August 14, 2023
San Franciscans Are Having Sex in Robotaxis, and Nobody Is Talking About It
Please rate the cleanliness of the vehicle:
★☆☆☆☆
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:24 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Please rate the cleanliness of the vehicle:
★☆☆☆☆
posted by paper chromatographologist at 1:24 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
Because one could really easily mount a laser on the bottom of a walking stick or crutch or something like that add slow leaks to car tires all day with no one the wiser
These cars are taking high-resolution video at very high frame rates at all times while they are deployed on the streets, and saving them for future processing/training -- the secondary surveillance effects here are massive and (intentionally) left unstated most of the time. "No one the wiser" is not a very likely possibility here, even down by the tires.
posted by toxic at 1:28 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
These cars are taking high-resolution video at very high frame rates at all times while they are deployed on the streets, and saving them for future processing/training -- the secondary surveillance effects here are massive and (intentionally) left unstated most of the time. "No one the wiser" is not a very likely possibility here, even down by the tires.
posted by toxic at 1:28 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
There are normal production cars that will catch you doing stuff like that, too, with video.
posted by ryanrs at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by ryanrs at 1:42 PM on August 14, 2023
If you get caught, you can be all like “this is my soup laser, to feed my family!”
posted by dr_dank at 2:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 2:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just remove the valve cores. I don't see why you'd escalate to real damage, that just makes it more likely the cops and DA will go after you.
posted by ryanrs at 2:38 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ryanrs at 2:38 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
> might as well have been boulders: no one knew how to move them.
People need to start carrying sledge hammers, looks like. If something is immobile as a boulder in the middle of the street, and unresponsive, then just smash it to tiny bits and throw the detritus to the side. Problem solved.
For fire departments etc the problem is even easier - just use your giant vehicle to shove the robocar out of the way, then send RoboCar Operations Inc. a bill for whatever damage this did to your vehicle.
posted by flug at 2:43 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
People need to start carrying sledge hammers, looks like. If something is immobile as a boulder in the middle of the street, and unresponsive, then just smash it to tiny bits and throw the detritus to the side. Problem solved.
For fire departments etc the problem is even easier - just use your giant vehicle to shove the robocar out of the way, then send RoboCar Operations Inc. a bill for whatever damage this did to your vehicle.
posted by flug at 2:43 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
San Franciscans Are Having Sex in Robotaxis, and Nobody Is Talking About It
As usual, they are talking about it way too much. The tech bros killed SF's libido, and the nation has moved on. Get used to it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:44 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
As usual, they are talking about it way too much. The tech bros killed SF's libido, and the nation has moved on. Get used to it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:44 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
The future is stupid, just not evenly distributed.
posted by slogger at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by slogger at 3:17 PM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Everybody, calm down. If we only learn one thing from this thread it should be that Soup Lasers is an excellent 90s band name.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:58 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 3:58 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
Glad we don't have these yet in Seattle. We have enough traffic issues without roboctaxis doing stupid things. My son lives in SF. I'll ask him his thoughts.
posted by Windopaene at 4:43 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by Windopaene at 4:43 PM on August 14, 2023
And boy Cruise must have high insurance costs. Or will soon after a few fatal "bugs in the software".
posted by Windopaene at 4:44 PM on August 14, 2023
posted by Windopaene at 4:44 PM on August 14, 2023
A couple interesting data points...
During the pandemic, I applied at Cruise, but was not selected. I then drove for Waymo for six months, then was supposedly sacked for revealing company secrets (even though I can prove EVERYTHING I revealed was visible to the public or have been revealed by Waymo or news articles). I then worked at Zoox for a few months, but was let go during training phase for some physical issues. So I've worked at 2 out of 3 AV companies in San Francisco.
When Cruise blamed connectivity for their vehicle control problems, I am not going to tell you how I know, as that'd be revealing company secrets (which I do take seriously), but let's just say, Waymo is less susceptible to that problem. I am sure you can guess which mitigation measures Waymo took, which I will neither confirm or deny.
Finally, I am apparently being courted by recruiters... who want me to join Cruise at the moment. However, I am busy taking courses about Cybersecurity, and clearly, given their woes at the moment, they... uh... need to rethink their business continuity plans.
posted by kschang at 4:55 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
During the pandemic, I applied at Cruise, but was not selected. I then drove for Waymo for six months, then was supposedly sacked for revealing company secrets (even though I can prove EVERYTHING I revealed was visible to the public or have been revealed by Waymo or news articles). I then worked at Zoox for a few months, but was let go during training phase for some physical issues. So I've worked at 2 out of 3 AV companies in San Francisco.
When Cruise blamed connectivity for their vehicle control problems, I am not going to tell you how I know, as that'd be revealing company secrets (which I do take seriously), but let's just say, Waymo is less susceptible to that problem. I am sure you can guess which mitigation measures Waymo took, which I will neither confirm or deny.
Finally, I am apparently being courted by recruiters... who want me to join Cruise at the moment. However, I am busy taking courses about Cybersecurity, and clearly, given their woes at the moment, they... uh... need to rethink their business continuity plans.
posted by kschang at 4:55 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
And talked to by SF living son. He sees them all the time. Hasn't ridden in one, nor had sex in one...
I raised a good boy.
posted by Windopaene at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I raised a good boy.
posted by Windopaene at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
meehawl wrote: >> why do "self-driving" robot cars fail when they have no network access? Do they not have independent offline maps and programming?
I cannot say what's internally happening at cruise, but having worked at Waymo and Zoox, the OTHER two AV companies in San Francisco, here's my explanation, which is entirely my speculation, without using any company secrets or such...
The problem is a different way to handle driving, vs. routing. By "driving", I mean the ability to handle the road and objects around it, while "routing" is handled by a different part of the AI.
You and I drive the cars, but for routing, we often depend on in-car GPS or Waze of Google Maps Navigation. We can take general directions, like "turn left in 200 feet" and match that with our own senses to drive the car to the destination.
So how do you and I react to, say, a traffic jam up ahead? We usually have 2 options: re-route, and wait. However, when you think about it, "re-route" is not that simple. a) If you generally know where you are going, you will simply turn down a parallel street, and work your way forward until you judge you've worked past the traffic jam, then rejoin the main road. But that's a pretty high-level thinking, as it involves driving, routing, AND a judgement call based on live traffic data that you can observe more than a block from you. b) you can request a reroute from the navigation software, usually by turning down a parallel road, and it will try to direct you to the destination by mapping a new route. YOU have to decide whether to follow the directions or not. or c) you can just wait in traffic.
If you don't know where to go, and you don't have navigation support, the safest decision is to stop, right?
Except the AVs are sometimes dumb enough to stop in the middle of the road, instead of "find a parking space".
Again, I've never worked at Cruise, I haven't seen their driving AI, and how much autonomy their routing vs driving AI have, vs. which decisions had to be approved by humans back at Operations, but if their connectivity goes kaput, and their fleet stops, that tells me a) they don't have enough alternative comm channels b) they keep their routing AI on a fairly "tight leash" (i.e. they do most routing back at ops). Whether that's an operational choice, vs a technical limit, I have no idea. It could be either.
I hope that's somewhat helpful explaining the stuff.
posted by kschang at 5:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
I cannot say what's internally happening at cruise, but having worked at Waymo and Zoox, the OTHER two AV companies in San Francisco, here's my explanation, which is entirely my speculation, without using any company secrets or such...
The problem is a different way to handle driving, vs. routing. By "driving", I mean the ability to handle the road and objects around it, while "routing" is handled by a different part of the AI.
You and I drive the cars, but for routing, we often depend on in-car GPS or Waze of Google Maps Navigation. We can take general directions, like "turn left in 200 feet" and match that with our own senses to drive the car to the destination.
So how do you and I react to, say, a traffic jam up ahead? We usually have 2 options: re-route, and wait. However, when you think about it, "re-route" is not that simple. a) If you generally know where you are going, you will simply turn down a parallel street, and work your way forward until you judge you've worked past the traffic jam, then rejoin the main road. But that's a pretty high-level thinking, as it involves driving, routing, AND a judgement call based on live traffic data that you can observe more than a block from you. b) you can request a reroute from the navigation software, usually by turning down a parallel road, and it will try to direct you to the destination by mapping a new route. YOU have to decide whether to follow the directions or not. or c) you can just wait in traffic.
If you don't know where to go, and you don't have navigation support, the safest decision is to stop, right?
Except the AVs are sometimes dumb enough to stop in the middle of the road, instead of "find a parking space".
Again, I've never worked at Cruise, I haven't seen their driving AI, and how much autonomy their routing vs driving AI have, vs. which decisions had to be approved by humans back at Operations, but if their connectivity goes kaput, and their fleet stops, that tells me a) they don't have enough alternative comm channels b) they keep their routing AI on a fairly "tight leash" (i.e. they do most routing back at ops). Whether that's an operational choice, vs a technical limit, I have no idea. It could be either.
I hope that's somewhat helpful explaining the stuff.
posted by kschang at 5:20 PM on August 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Are they in fact being "driven" by remote human operators for anything but the most routine operation?
The opposite. The human operators are there to monitor and only step in if something is not routine.
posted by Preserver at 5:30 PM on August 14, 2023
The opposite. The human operators are there to monitor and only step in if something is not routine.
posted by Preserver at 5:30 PM on August 14, 2023
>A recent "Hard Fork" podcast interviewed a couple of the anti-car activists who have been involved with monkeywrenching self-driving taxis. They talked about demystifying the driverless notion in that someone had to come move the cones. There were people out there who had to do this work. Generally low-paid/exploited people who were already toiling behind the scenes but now were pulled into the public eye.
To be honest, Cruise pays a living wage with benefits in San Francisco. But the staff can't be everywhere. There are only a few Cruise depots in SF, and when someone "cones" a Cruise vehicle, someone at ops have to call the local team, the local team have to dispatch 1-2 guys in a regular car, who comes over, collects the cone, calls ops up and say cone's remove, reset vehicle, then vehicle's off. It's just unnecessary MEANNESS and extra work for the local support staff who's also in charge of repositioning, charging, cleaning, and checking the 100+ vehicles Cruise has in San Francisco. It adds to the congestion. And what exactly does that prove?
posted by kschang at 5:48 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
To be honest, Cruise pays a living wage with benefits in San Francisco. But the staff can't be everywhere. There are only a few Cruise depots in SF, and when someone "cones" a Cruise vehicle, someone at ops have to call the local team, the local team have to dispatch 1-2 guys in a regular car, who comes over, collects the cone, calls ops up and say cone's remove, reset vehicle, then vehicle's off. It's just unnecessary MEANNESS and extra work for the local support staff who's also in charge of repositioning, charging, cleaning, and checking the 100+ vehicles Cruise has in San Francisco. It adds to the congestion. And what exactly does that prove?
posted by kschang at 5:48 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
And what exactly does that prove?
That people don’t want these things on their streets?
posted by uncleozzy at 6:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
That people don’t want these things on their streets?
posted by uncleozzy at 6:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [15 favorites]
It proves this whole thing isn't gonna work without some serious changes, and that's the best case scenario. I'm more worried about the killing people angle so hate these things.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:10 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:10 PM on August 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
> Their cars only move if the cell phone network works?
They drive themselves most of the time but when they get into a circumstance they can't figure out, that's when they dial home for help. Meanwhile, they're stopped cold.
Traffic jamm-y types of situations are exactly where they're most likely to need help. So get a bunch of them in one place, the one in front runs into some little snag, and there you go. Now they're all confused and stopped.
Single point of failure able to take down the whole system seems like a pretty bad feature for systems like this. You have a hurricane strike or a forest fire or whatever take down the cell system, and suddenly every single robocar is at a dead stop in the middle of the road clogging up all traffic?
Whatever it is that made the entire cell system go down, having all traffic clogged at the exact same moment seems like just the thing you did not want in addition to whatever natural disaster you're dealing with . . .
posted by flug at 6:22 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
They drive themselves most of the time but when they get into a circumstance they can't figure out, that's when they dial home for help. Meanwhile, they're stopped cold.
Traffic jamm-y types of situations are exactly where they're most likely to need help. So get a bunch of them in one place, the one in front runs into some little snag, and there you go. Now they're all confused and stopped.
Single point of failure able to take down the whole system seems like a pretty bad feature for systems like this. You have a hurricane strike or a forest fire or whatever take down the cell system, and suddenly every single robocar is at a dead stop in the middle of the road clogging up all traffic?
Whatever it is that made the entire cell system go down, having all traffic clogged at the exact same moment seems like just the thing you did not want in addition to whatever natural disaster you're dealing with . . .
posted by flug at 6:22 PM on August 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Peskin said city officials are pursuing “every means” to have the CPUC decision reversed, and are discussing whether to seek a court injunction. Another option: fining Cruise and Waymo thousands of dollars for each robotaxi road blockage.
On what fucking planet would either of these companies care about thousands of dollars for each blockage? Make it $1,000,000/per, and maybe they would pay attention. Make them liable for paying full damages for blocking first responders, and maybe they'd notice.
posted by Gorgik at 6:27 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
On what fucking planet would either of these companies care about thousands of dollars for each blockage? Make it $1,000,000/per, and maybe they would pay attention. Make them liable for paying full damages for blocking first responders, and maybe they'd notice.
posted by Gorgik at 6:27 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's just unnecessary MEANNESS
You might say the same about gumming up the streets with more cars and more pollution for no purpose other than for some company's private interests.
posted by flamk at 6:34 PM on August 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
You might say the same about gumming up the streets with more cars and more pollution for no purpose other than for some company's private interests.
posted by flamk at 6:34 PM on August 14, 2023 [10 favorites]
>>That people don't want them on the streets?
by forcing them to stay on the streets even longer via coning?
>>gumming up the streets with more cars and more pollution...
You do remember those are EVs (except the Zoox's test mule Toyotas) right?
posted by kschang at 6:58 PM on August 14, 2023
by forcing them to stay on the streets even longer via coning?
>>gumming up the streets with more cars and more pollution...
You do remember those are EVs (except the Zoox's test mule Toyotas) right?
posted by kschang at 6:58 PM on August 14, 2023
You do remember those are EVs (except the Zoox's test mule Toyotas) right?
Cali's energy mix is still half natural gas along with a third of the power it imports. Plus you still get lovely microplastics coming off tires and infiltrating the environment.
They don't pollute as much but the pollution is still considerable for it to be considered sane for these cars to be literally driving around for no fucking reason at all.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cali's energy mix is still half natural gas along with a third of the power it imports. Plus you still get lovely microplastics coming off tires and infiltrating the environment.
They don't pollute as much but the pollution is still considerable for it to be considered sane for these cars to be literally driving around for no fucking reason at all.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
You do remember those are EVs
You do remember that electric cars pollute? Perhaps not quite as much as gasoline cars, but more than just about any other means of urban transportation, especially once you account for congestion multipliers, tire particulates, and freeway construction (to say nothing of offloading the ecological costs of mineral mining to poorer countries).
Electric cars (can we stop calling them EVs? unless we're including electric trains, buses, and bikes) are the filter cigarettes of transportation sustainability.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
You do remember that electric cars pollute? Perhaps not quite as much as gasoline cars, but more than just about any other means of urban transportation, especially once you account for congestion multipliers, tire particulates, and freeway construction (to say nothing of offloading the ecological costs of mineral mining to poorer countries).
Electric cars (can we stop calling them EVs? unless we're including electric trains, buses, and bikes) are the filter cigarettes of transportation sustainability.
posted by splitpeasoup at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
The point would, apparently, be to impose cost on the companies that deploy the shitty robots, so as to make it not worthwhile to deploy shitty robots to clog the streets further.
Cars suck, even electric cars. I say this as a former professional driver, auto mechanic and EV-conversion enthusiast. A dear departed friend of mine used to say that "Converting a gas car to electric is the highest form of recycling." Sadly I no longer agree. Converting them to tiny houses or storage sheds or trailers would be better; and recycling has come a long way since my friend was around.
Incentives matter, and assuming that the people doing a thing of which you disapprove are being stupid only prevents you from learning.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Cars suck, even electric cars. I say this as a former professional driver, auto mechanic and EV-conversion enthusiast. A dear departed friend of mine used to say that "Converting a gas car to electric is the highest form of recycling." Sadly I no longer agree. Converting them to tiny houses or storage sheds or trailers would be better; and recycling has come a long way since my friend was around.
Incentives matter, and assuming that the people doing a thing of which you disapprove are being stupid only prevents you from learning.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 7:18 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
>Cali's energy mix is still half natural gas
to improve the pollution picture I guess the fleet could home themselves during the mid-day lull to charge up on solar power – this would make sense to give them a pit-stop at least once a day, too. This daily charging would require battery storage sufficient to cover the PM and AM runs, either on-board or fixed (for overnight charging).
YMMV during winter solar minimums, but 100% perfect is often impossible.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:21 PM on August 14, 2023
to improve the pollution picture I guess the fleet could home themselves during the mid-day lull to charge up on solar power – this would make sense to give them a pit-stop at least once a day, too. This daily charging would require battery storage sufficient to cover the PM and AM runs, either on-board or fixed (for overnight charging).
YMMV during winter solar minimums, but 100% perfect is often impossible.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:21 PM on August 14, 2023
>>>They are protesting against AVs (and they pollute)
>> You do realize those are EVs right?
>EV still pollute
So the point is people who hate cars in general pick on AVs because they can be coned, but regular cars can't be?
posted by kschang at 9:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
>> You do realize those are EVs right?
>EV still pollute
So the point is people who hate cars in general pick on AVs because they can be coned, but regular cars can't be?
posted by kschang at 9:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re the whole "who's to blame when a vehicle marketed as Full Self Driving crashes into a barrier when the passenger who's supposed to be a driver is on their iPhone" thing: I was recently introduced to the idea of "moral crumple zones", where a company can deflect responsibility on to a person who was "supposed to be paying attention" or whatever.
It's kinda like how the pedestrian or bicyclist is always in the wrong whena driver runs them over.
It's helping me reframe how I view the companies putting a buck or so per mile of externalities on to us while claiming hardship because of pedestrians with traffic cones.
posted by straw at 10:03 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's kinda like how the pedestrian or bicyclist is always in the wrong whena driver runs them over.
It's helping me reframe how I view the companies putting a buck or so per mile of externalities on to us while claiming hardship because of pedestrians with traffic cones.
posted by straw at 10:03 PM on August 14, 2023 [9 favorites]
You do remember that electric cars pollute
That may well be true, but the notion on this site that we as a society will ever get rid of cars is a silly fantasy.
Short of societal collapse and apocalypse, self-driving vehicles are coming, like it or not.
The only lesson San Francisco has to offer here to people outside that city is that you need to vote and agitate to make your local governments accountable to you, before your officials get bought out by corporate interests or their offices are filled with former industry heads, as seems to be the case pretty much everywhere in SF.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
That may well be true, but the notion on this site that we as a society will ever get rid of cars is a silly fantasy.
Short of societal collapse and apocalypse, self-driving vehicles are coming, like it or not.
The only lesson San Francisco has to offer here to people outside that city is that you need to vote and agitate to make your local governments accountable to you, before your officials get bought out by corporate interests or their offices are filled with former industry heads, as seems to be the case pretty much everywhere in SF.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:08 PM on August 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
That may well be true, but the notion on this site that we as a society will ever get rid of cars is a silly fantasy.
Short of societal collapse and apocalypse, self-driving vehicles are coming, like it or not.
Thank you - I wish I could favorite this 10 more times. I hate car culture, but we have spent the better part of this past century building out cities that are literally impossible to navigate without having access to a private vehicle.
Yes, transit would be better, but usable transit is impossible in areas with low-density homogenous suburban populations, which is most of America.
Absent a massive cataclysmic event, we aren't going to magically make existing US neighborhoods transit friendly. At least solutions like EV and automated driving are better than what we have now.
posted by photo guy at 3:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Short of societal collapse and apocalypse, self-driving vehicles are coming, like it or not.
Thank you - I wish I could favorite this 10 more times. I hate car culture, but we have spent the better part of this past century building out cities that are literally impossible to navigate without having access to a private vehicle.
Yes, transit would be better, but usable transit is impossible in areas with low-density homogenous suburban populations, which is most of America.
Absent a massive cataclysmic event, we aren't going to magically make existing US neighborhoods transit friendly. At least solutions like EV and automated driving are better than what we have now.
posted by photo guy at 3:46 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Absent a massive cataclysmic event, we aren't going to magically make existing US neighborhoods transit friendly. At least solutions like EV and automated driving are better than what we have now.
100% agree, but the autonomous vehicles we have are, evidently, still trash, and don't belong on actual roads with actual humans yet. Not my problem to figure out how they develop them, but testing them on live roads with live humans who very clearly do not consent, clearly isn't it.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:54 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
100% agree, but the autonomous vehicles we have are, evidently, still trash, and don't belong on actual roads with actual humans yet. Not my problem to figure out how they develop them, but testing them on live roads with live humans who very clearly do not consent, clearly isn't it.
posted by uncleozzy at 3:54 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
We live in capitalismcar culture. Its power seems inescapable. So did the divine right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and changed by human beings. - Ursula Le Guin, probably
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:57 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 3:57 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do wonder why the towing companies and cops don't jump all over these illegally parked vehicles. That's a huge revenue stream. Could it be ... corruption?
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:22 AM on August 15, 2023
posted by seanmpuckett at 5:22 AM on August 15, 2023
Bringing on a traffic jam is a pretty effective counter to being approached by a tow truck for vehicles at the epicentre.
posted by flabdablet at 6:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 6:43 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
What a coincidence; I was nearly hit by a Tesla yesterday.
Absent a massive cataclysmic event, we aren't going to magically make existing US neighborhoods transit friendly.
I am sad that we lack the imagination of our counterparts in Europe and South America who are not afraid to attempt big changes in their cities. I guess that's a poor way to put it; Austin is attempting a big change right now by uprooting entire neighborhoods and shutting down their hike and bike trail for six years to spend billions on a highway expansion no one wants. I guess we have imagination and resources in some cases.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Absent a massive cataclysmic event, we aren't going to magically make existing US neighborhoods transit friendly.
I am sad that we lack the imagination of our counterparts in Europe and South America who are not afraid to attempt big changes in their cities. I guess that's a poor way to put it; Austin is attempting a big change right now by uprooting entire neighborhoods and shutting down their hike and bike trail for six years to spend billions on a highway expansion no one wants. I guess we have imagination and resources in some cases.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
That may well be true, but the notion on this site that we as a society will ever get rid of cars is a silly fantasy.
The cars responsible for this particular traffic jam actually only sat motionless for 15 minutes. That's an indication of the power of car culture.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:14 AM on August 15, 2023
The cars responsible for this particular traffic jam actually only sat motionless for 15 minutes. That's an indication of the power of car culture.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:14 AM on August 15, 2023
I wonder how long it would take a 6 watt "hobby" engraving blue laser to punch a sub-millimetre hole through a tire sidewall.
Besides the mentioned problems with using an unguarded laser in public punctured tires and explode quite violently so best not to mess with them.
Besides a car with flat tire is quickly restored to service roadside. Now something like a side window shattered with a spring punch requires hours in a shop to return to service.
For fire departments etc the problem is even easier - just use your giant vehicle to shove the robocar out of the way, then send RoboCar Operations Inc. a bill for whatever damage this did to your vehicle.
Problem is the unattended vehicle is rarely immediately in front of the push bumper of the giant vehicle. Usually there are other occupied vehicles in between. Yes eventually people on the site can work it out but that can impose significant delays.
posted by Mitheral at 9:25 AM on August 15, 2023
Besides the mentioned problems with using an unguarded laser in public punctured tires and explode quite violently so best not to mess with them.
Besides a car with flat tire is quickly restored to service roadside. Now something like a side window shattered with a spring punch requires hours in a shop to return to service.
For fire departments etc the problem is even easier - just use your giant vehicle to shove the robocar out of the way, then send RoboCar Operations Inc. a bill for whatever damage this did to your vehicle.
Problem is the unattended vehicle is rarely immediately in front of the push bumper of the giant vehicle. Usually there are other occupied vehicles in between. Yes eventually people on the site can work it out but that can impose significant delays.
posted by Mitheral at 9:25 AM on August 15, 2023
I am sad that we lack the imagination of our counterparts in Europe and South America who are not afraid to attempt big changes in their cities.
I don't think we can solely blame lack of imagination here. European urban design has always been transit-oriented and pedestrian-oriented from the start. Housing is smaller, lots are MUCH smaller, neighborhoods developed for decades around train stations and with zoning laws that doesn't prioritize cars (no insane requirement for parking, for instance), etc. Europe never needed a moon shot because it's how their cities have always been designed.
Sure there are changes we could make - massively overhauling zoning laws would be a good start - but that only addresses new construction. What do you do about all of those low density 1970s-present neighborhoods that already exist? These neighborhoods make up the majority of housing stock in many American cities.
Yeah I'd love to have European-style transit - I've spent multiple years living in Europe and know how better the US could have it - but that is something that takes decades or longer. We need a solution here and now.
posted by photo guy at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think we can solely blame lack of imagination here. European urban design has always been transit-oriented and pedestrian-oriented from the start. Housing is smaller, lots are MUCH smaller, neighborhoods developed for decades around train stations and with zoning laws that doesn't prioritize cars (no insane requirement for parking, for instance), etc. Europe never needed a moon shot because it's how their cities have always been designed.
Sure there are changes we could make - massively overhauling zoning laws would be a good start - but that only addresses new construction. What do you do about all of those low density 1970s-present neighborhoods that already exist? These neighborhoods make up the majority of housing stock in many American cities.
Yeah I'd love to have European-style transit - I've spent multiple years living in Europe and know how better the US could have it - but that is something that takes decades or longer. We need a solution here and now.
posted by photo guy at 10:23 AM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
100% agree, but the autonomous vehicles we have are, evidently, still trash, and don't belong on actual roads with actual humans yet. Not my problem to figure out how they develop them, but testing them on live roads with live humans who very clearly do not consent, clearly isn't it.
Would you prefer forcing people to continue to drive long after they are able? Because that is what we are doing now.
I once had to go without driving for a few months for health reasons, and WOW - it is hard to emphasize how badly it isolates you. The idea of being permanently forced into that kind of existence as I get older is not a future I'm looking forward to. As I made clear in my earlier comment, this is just how most American cities are designed, like it or not. Taxi service in most of them is nonexistent and Uber/Lyft is borderline unusable anymore - it's drive, convince someone else to drive you (good luck if your family is unable/unwilling) or die alone in isolation.
But as in the last thread, MeFi cares more about sticking it to the tech bros than identifying valid solutions for people who need an alternative to driving their own car.
posted by photo guy at 10:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Would you prefer forcing people to continue to drive long after they are able? Because that is what we are doing now.
I once had to go without driving for a few months for health reasons, and WOW - it is hard to emphasize how badly it isolates you. The idea of being permanently forced into that kind of existence as I get older is not a future I'm looking forward to. As I made clear in my earlier comment, this is just how most American cities are designed, like it or not. Taxi service in most of them is nonexistent and Uber/Lyft is borderline unusable anymore - it's drive, convince someone else to drive you (good luck if your family is unable/unwilling) or die alone in isolation.
But as in the last thread, MeFi cares more about sticking it to the tech bros than identifying valid solutions for people who need an alternative to driving their own car.
posted by photo guy at 10:44 AM on August 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
The problem is, this isn't a valid solution yet. Maybe someday it will be? But experiments with this level of danger, with a for-profit, "go fast and break things", when those things could be PEOPLE, are unacceptable to me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:49 AM on August 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Car culture is already dying. Younger people are less likely to own cars or to want to do so. Cities are running out of money to effect constant expensive road repairs necessitated by heavier, faster vehicles. American cities existed 100 years before cars did.* They can be expected to continue to exist after the personal automobile, as we've known it, goes the way of the buggy whip.
Autonomous vehicles have also existed for a long time. It's easy to make an autonomous vehicle if you keep it small and slow. There's no need for a three-tonne, 100+mph capable saloon car to be an autonomous urban taxi, and the tech available is a long way from making it safe. It's not safe even with the best available human driver.
I don't know what the cities of the future will look like, assuming there's a future. I hope that such cities have more dirt, less asphalt, room to walk around and for kids to play- without the constant fear of being crushed by a hurtling juggernaut.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:21 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Autonomous vehicles have also existed for a long time. It's easy to make an autonomous vehicle if you keep it small and slow. There's no need for a three-tonne, 100+mph capable saloon car to be an autonomous urban taxi, and the tech available is a long way from making it safe. It's not safe even with the best available human driver.
I don't know what the cities of the future will look like, assuming there's a future. I hope that such cities have more dirt, less asphalt, room to walk around and for kids to play- without the constant fear of being crushed by a hurtling juggernaut.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 11:21 AM on August 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
What do you do about all of those low density 1970s-present neighborhoods that already exist? These neighborhoods make up the majority of housing stock in many American cities.
It isn't a happy story but Detroit is probably instructive. It's a story that is likely to be repeated numerous times in the next 100 years as changing circumstances and the Ponzi scheme of single family homes defacto bankrupt more places.
Alternatively a city could halt new road infrastructure (maybe even reduce it), encourage densification by eliminating parking minimums, lot size minimums, lot coverage maximums in residential zones and increase allowed density in former single family home zones. EG: a garden suite is well suited to those oversize lots and increases densification by 30-100% without extending a single road. It won't be flipping a switch but the city will gradually become a better place to live.
posted by Mitheral at 6:55 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It isn't a happy story but Detroit is probably instructive. It's a story that is likely to be repeated numerous times in the next 100 years as changing circumstances and the Ponzi scheme of single family homes defacto bankrupt more places.
Alternatively a city could halt new road infrastructure (maybe even reduce it), encourage densification by eliminating parking minimums, lot size minimums, lot coverage maximums in residential zones and increase allowed density in former single family home zones. EG: a garden suite is well suited to those oversize lots and increases densification by 30-100% without extending a single road. It won't be flipping a switch but the city will gradually become a better place to live.
posted by Mitheral at 6:55 PM on August 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
As a person who didn't drive for a long time, I desperately want self-driving cars to work well. I just do not trust That Idiot and his cars whatsoever.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:01 PM on August 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
It isn't a happy story but Detroit is probably instructive. It's a story that is likely to be repeated numerous times in the next 100 years as changing circumstances and the Ponzi scheme of single family homes defacto bankrupt more places.
When you say Detroit's story is instructive, what do you mean? Rather counterintuitively, the City of Detroit's size and glut of single-family homes is not down to the car...most of the city was built out when streetcars still ruled and is more a function of its geography.
The suburbs are a different story but there again there were other factors as well (*coughracismcough*).
posted by Preserver at 7:22 AM on August 16, 2023
When you say Detroit's story is instructive, what do you mean? Rather counterintuitively, the City of Detroit's size and glut of single-family homes is not down to the car...most of the city was built out when streetcars still ruled and is more a function of its geography.
The suburbs are a different story but there again there were other factors as well (*coughracismcough*).
posted by Preserver at 7:22 AM on August 16, 2023
City of Detroit's size and glut of single-family homes is not down to the car...most of the city was built out when streetcars still ruled and is more a function of its geography.
It's very wrong to make reductive statements like this - almost every US city was designed 'for the car' 150 years before cars existed, with extremely wide streets. This design standard was started in the early 1800s. This is true for Detroit as well, it's pre-1800 population is really low.
Also street cars were also essentially 'fake' amenities that were built at densities unable to pay for themselves. Most modern transit systems are older (ie: have lasted longer) than those street car systems did; however that is highly dependent on the city.
Specifically for Detroit, the street car system started in 1863 developed privately. Private lines owners merged and sold all to the city in 1920, became the longest and busiest rail system in the US, and was tagged for turndown in 1929, due to the overwhelming costs, ironically saved by the Great Depression.
Detroit wasn't terribly impacted by the Great Depression - only 15% of it's downtown buildings were bulldozed for parking lots (paid parking was worth more than empty office buildings), which is less than many other major cities. This shows modern financial management (ie: quantitative easing, the Fed) is far more useful than austerity. Anyone who says differently is ok with extreme decline.
Also much of the city of Detroit is on the 1X1 mile major street grid that basically every city west of the Mississippi is (especially the west side - maybe it was among the first? IDK) which is not conducive to rail transit - it's an extremely suburban design. So Detroit is basically exactly like every other city in US.
It's also true that Detroit's story of decline is instructive, in that they forced the sale of lots of houses for minor tax liens - which lead to the abandonment and destruction of those properties. So if your city is in decline - don't do that. Also look at pictures of Detroit in 1929 vs 1999, to see the amount of housing and businesses bulldozed for freeways - don't do that either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:49 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's very wrong to make reductive statements like this - almost every US city was designed 'for the car' 150 years before cars existed, with extremely wide streets. This design standard was started in the early 1800s. This is true for Detroit as well, it's pre-1800 population is really low.
Also street cars were also essentially 'fake' amenities that were built at densities unable to pay for themselves. Most modern transit systems are older (ie: have lasted longer) than those street car systems did; however that is highly dependent on the city.
Specifically for Detroit, the street car system started in 1863 developed privately. Private lines owners merged and sold all to the city in 1920, became the longest and busiest rail system in the US, and was tagged for turndown in 1929, due to the overwhelming costs, ironically saved by the Great Depression.
Detroit wasn't terribly impacted by the Great Depression - only 15% of it's downtown buildings were bulldozed for parking lots (paid parking was worth more than empty office buildings), which is less than many other major cities. This shows modern financial management (ie: quantitative easing, the Fed) is far more useful than austerity. Anyone who says differently is ok with extreme decline.
Also much of the city of Detroit is on the 1X1 mile major street grid that basically every city west of the Mississippi is (especially the west side - maybe it was among the first? IDK) which is not conducive to rail transit - it's an extremely suburban design. So Detroit is basically exactly like every other city in US.
It's also true that Detroit's story of decline is instructive, in that they forced the sale of lots of houses for minor tax liens - which lead to the abandonment and destruction of those properties. So if your city is in decline - don't do that. Also look at pictures of Detroit in 1929 vs 1999, to see the amount of housing and businesses bulldozed for freeways - don't do that either.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:49 AM on August 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's very wrong to make reductive statements like this - almost every US city was designed 'for the car' 150 years before cars existed, with extremely wide streets.
It's very wrong to lecture a Detroit historian on Detroit's history.
I'm not even sure what the argument here is - that Detroit's size and the predominance of single-family homes is attributable to the car because the city laid out wide streets in the 1800s? Because that seems like a pretty reductionist argument to me. Detroit's housing mix skews very heavily toward single-family homes - over 60%, higher than the average and a higher percentage than most major cities, and that was as true 100 years ago as it is today. That's down to a lot of factors particular to Detroit, including the timing of its major economic and physical growth period, its topography, and its layout (which is a lot more complex than the 1x1 grid and has many influences). There's no question that cars were one of those factors, but that impact was relatively limited until the last building boom of the 1950s and took place largely in very outer ring neighborhoods and the suburbs.
While recent practices like foreclosure certainly don't help, Detroit's history of depopulation and physical decline has far more complex and long-standing causes than urban renewal (which decimated many downtowns, large and small) and poor city management.
posted by Preserver at 10:26 AM on August 16, 2023
It's very wrong to lecture a Detroit historian on Detroit's history.
I'm not even sure what the argument here is - that Detroit's size and the predominance of single-family homes is attributable to the car because the city laid out wide streets in the 1800s? Because that seems like a pretty reductionist argument to me. Detroit's housing mix skews very heavily toward single-family homes - over 60%, higher than the average and a higher percentage than most major cities, and that was as true 100 years ago as it is today. That's down to a lot of factors particular to Detroit, including the timing of its major economic and physical growth period, its topography, and its layout (which is a lot more complex than the 1x1 grid and has many influences). There's no question that cars were one of those factors, but that impact was relatively limited until the last building boom of the 1950s and took place largely in very outer ring neighborhoods and the suburbs.
While recent practices like foreclosure certainly don't help, Detroit's history of depopulation and physical decline has far more complex and long-standing causes than urban renewal (which decimated many downtowns, large and small) and poor city management.
posted by Preserver at 10:26 AM on August 16, 2023
San Franciscans are having sex... [in driverless cars].
This possibly is an improvement over parked cars, park benches, steam baths, theaters, and standing in a crowd at a free concert in Golden Gate Park. Of course, that was when I lived there about fifty years ago, so I admit I may be a bit behind the times. You guys don't know from disappointment. I was told we'd have flying cars and a colony on the Moon by now.
Full disclosure: I didn't own a car in those days. We scrounged bus and streetcar transfers off the bulletin board at the house on 19th Street, where we crashed.
posted by mule98J at 12:06 AM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
This possibly is an improvement over parked cars, park benches, steam baths, theaters, and standing in a crowd at a free concert in Golden Gate Park. Of course, that was when I lived there about fifty years ago, so I admit I may be a bit behind the times. You guys don't know from disappointment. I was told we'd have flying cars and a colony on the Moon by now.
Full disclosure: I didn't own a car in those days. We scrounged bus and streetcar transfers off the bulletin board at the house on 19th Street, where we crashed.
posted by mule98J at 12:06 AM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cruise: Pedestrian caused North Beach traffic jam, not Outside Lands. (Source is the SF Examiner, a terrible fake newspaper, but the article seems reliable in reporting what the company wanted to say.)
the logjam was created by a pedestrian who intentionally interfered with a robotaxi, Cruise confirmed to The Examiner on Wednesday. ...As for the cell connectivity
a pedestrian intentionally interfered with a driverless vehicle, causing it to stop. As the car idled waiting for a remote worker to clear it, other Cruise cars picking up and dropping off riders in the area stopped behind the lead car, causing a chain reaction of stalled vehicles and snarling traffic.
Cruise didn’t specify how the person forced the vehicle to stop but said that the company resolved the backup after 15 minutes.
Cruise, which was servicing Outside Lands for all three days of the festival, needed to remotely assist several of its self-driving cars to help them navigate the massive congestion of people in and around the concert, the company said.posted by Nelson at 7:15 AM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
But bandwidth issues on the local cell network, exacerbated by the enormous concentration of people on their phones in Golden Gate Park, slowed down Cruise workers’ ability to access the vehicles. Those remote connection problems prompted Cruise to move and shut down several vehicles near the park.
Those remote connection problems prompted Cruise to move and shut down several vehicles near the park.
Gosh, it’s almost like there should have been someone local to assist.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:14 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gosh, it’s almost like there should have been someone local to assist.
posted by uncleozzy at 12:14 PM on August 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Driverless Cruise car collides with SF fire truck, injuring passenger, company say. Another robot victim, last night.
posted by Nelson at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Cruise posted on social media Friday morning that one of their cars entered the intersection on a green light and was struck by an emergency vehicle on the way to an emergency scene.(Note, the green light is not relevant; all cars must yield to emergency vehicles. It may explain why their robot failed to drive safely but it doesn't excuse the accident.)
posted by Nelson at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
>They're supposed to be able to hear, too?!
Yes. It's not a violation of my NDA to tell you that Waymo vehicles *do* have microphones for such eventualities.
posted by kschang at 6:57 PM on August 18, 2023
Yes. It's not a violation of my NDA to tell you that Waymo vehicles *do* have microphones for such eventualities.
posted by kschang at 6:57 PM on August 18, 2023
And here's waymo's blog entry, from 2017. Their vehicles knows how to react to emergency vehicles for a LONG time.
posted by kschang at 7:09 PM on August 18, 2023
posted by kschang at 7:09 PM on August 18, 2023
a pedestrian intentionally interfered with a driverless vehicle, causing it to stop.
I can't figure out if the company is trying to avoid saying their vehicles can be disabled with a traffic cone/cardboard box/whatever or if there is a way for pedestrians to disable them just by moving/not moving in a particular way.
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't figure out if the company is trying to avoid saying their vehicles can be disabled with a traffic cone/cardboard box/whatever or if there is a way for pedestrians to disable them just by moving/not moving in a particular way.
posted by Mitheral at 5:05 AM on August 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
yuck.
Cruise is bringing its robotaxis to Seattle and Washington, DC
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2023
Cruise is bringing its robotaxis to Seattle and Washington, DC
posted by Artw at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2023
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