Who’s afraid of Lorne Michaels?
August 17, 2023 4:38 PM Subscribe
Very rarely can we see an entire system reflected in one person. The creator and executive producer of “Saturday Night Live” is such a person. (Seth Simons, Longreads; content warning for sexual assault)
Excellent read. It's really very sobering how so much of pop culture is/was guided and steered by Lorne Michaels.
I'm guessing Lorne never had a problem with Mark McKinney's send up of him.
posted by Kitteh at 5:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm guessing Lorne never had a problem with Mark McKinney's send up of him.
posted by Kitteh at 5:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Fear can sometimes be a useful emotion.
For instance, let's say you're an astronaut on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham, you just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."
-Jack Handey.
"But I wasn’t the only one living in fear. The whole process pitted everyone against each other. Featured players would only have their name in the credits if they made it into one of the sketches actually broadcast. Writers would only get residuals if their sketches were aired. So, everyone had to scheme against each other to make sure their material got on TV."
posted by clavdivs at 5:45 PM on August 17, 2023 [16 favorites]
For instance, let's say you're an astronaut on the moon and you fear that your partner has been turned into Dracula. The next time he goes out for the moon pieces, wham, you just slam the door behind him and blast off. He might call you on the radio and say he's not Dracula, but you just say, "Think again, bat man."
-Jack Handey.
"But I wasn’t the only one living in fear. The whole process pitted everyone against each other. Featured players would only have their name in the credits if they made it into one of the sketches actually broadcast. Writers would only get residuals if their sketches were aired. So, everyone had to scheme against each other to make sure their material got on TV."
posted by clavdivs at 5:45 PM on August 17, 2023 [16 favorites]
Thanks, that's a fabulous and much-deserved takedown of a bigoted straight white man who's done at least as much damage to American comedy as he's contributed to it.
Also worth a mention is Maureen Ryan's new book Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood*, which has a lot more detail in this excerpt about Lorne Michaels and SNL, including more about the 17yo who claims Horation Sanz molested her in full view of SNL cast members:
Whether or not creating an awful work environment was Michaels’s goal is irrelevant. For decades, SNL has been a frequently terrible, punishing experience for a lot of people who worked there or ended up in the show’s orbit. This fact is in full view, in any number of books, interviews, and other coverage of the show. What is wrong is systemically and institutionally wrong, and Michaels runs that institution. He has had the power to change the SNL culture for the better on a number of fronts, but the hours, the pressure, the lack of inclusion, the punishing, manipulative atmosphere—not enough changes have been made to prevent the worst excesses of all that from negatively affecting many people, for many years.
There are lots of sharp quotes about Michaels' awful management style, his refusal to treat staff with basic respect, the way he forced black women cast members into roles as maids, slaves and welfare queens, and on and on. It's also worth a read (and quotes Seth Simons, the author of the linked piece above). Here's a good one:
“I mean, the whole thing was weird to me,” former SNL writer Odenkirk said in Live from New York. “To me, what was fun about comedy and should have been exciting about Saturday Night Live was the whole generational thing, you know, a crazy bunch of people sittin’ around making each other laugh with casual chaos and a kind of democracy of chaos. And to go into a place where this one distant and cold guy is in charge and trying to run it the way he ran it decades ago is just weird to me.”
The sooner Lorne Michaels retires, the sooner American comedy grows up.
*Ryan's chapter about the toxic culture of Damon Lindelof's Lost was the subject of this front page post in May.
posted by mediareport at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
Also worth a mention is Maureen Ryan's new book Burn It Down: Power, Complicity, and a Call for Change in Hollywood*, which has a lot more detail in this excerpt about Lorne Michaels and SNL, including more about the 17yo who claims Horation Sanz molested her in full view of SNL cast members:
Whether or not creating an awful work environment was Michaels’s goal is irrelevant. For decades, SNL has been a frequently terrible, punishing experience for a lot of people who worked there or ended up in the show’s orbit. This fact is in full view, in any number of books, interviews, and other coverage of the show. What is wrong is systemically and institutionally wrong, and Michaels runs that institution. He has had the power to change the SNL culture for the better on a number of fronts, but the hours, the pressure, the lack of inclusion, the punishing, manipulative atmosphere—not enough changes have been made to prevent the worst excesses of all that from negatively affecting many people, for many years.
There are lots of sharp quotes about Michaels' awful management style, his refusal to treat staff with basic respect, the way he forced black women cast members into roles as maids, slaves and welfare queens, and on and on. It's also worth a read (and quotes Seth Simons, the author of the linked piece above). Here's a good one:
“I mean, the whole thing was weird to me,” former SNL writer Odenkirk said in Live from New York. “To me, what was fun about comedy and should have been exciting about Saturday Night Live was the whole generational thing, you know, a crazy bunch of people sittin’ around making each other laugh with casual chaos and a kind of democracy of chaos. And to go into a place where this one distant and cold guy is in charge and trying to run it the way he ran it decades ago is just weird to me.”
The sooner Lorne Michaels retires, the sooner American comedy grows up.
*Ryan's chapter about the toxic culture of Damon Lindelof's Lost was the subject of this front page post in May.
posted by mediareport at 5:46 PM on August 17, 2023 [17 favorites]
Wow. Michaels is a super massive piece of shit.
posted by medusa at 6:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by medusa at 6:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
WHOA that is such a good article! Thanks for sharing, I'm lowkey obsessed with SNL lore.
posted by tristeza at 6:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tristeza at 6:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, I was about to go look for the Burn It Down excerpt as well.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:56 PM on August 17, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:56 PM on August 17, 2023
I’ve been saying for years he’ll never retire. He will be carried out on a board. Sooner than later please.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:14 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:14 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Not a nuanced take. This is much ado about things we already know, and seems to miss the point that this is largely about Hollywood and capitalism - not Lorne Michaels. Lorne Michaels is actually a fairly progressive hippie guy for someone as powerful and successful in media, who discovered Eddie Murphy in 1983, hired Terry Sweeney an open gay performer in 1985, and yes there were a few black women on SNL such as Ellen Cleghorne, Leslie Jones, Sasheer Zamata, Ego Nwodim. Lorne Michaels was putting George Carlin on in the 70s. SNL was and has always been a countercultural institution of satire that lampooned Reagan, and has usually been attacked by right wingers as having a liberal bias (which they do to everything reasonable). Do they stay up late? Yeah, that's part of the culture. Drugs? Yes, drugs. Are drugs bad again now? Was it toxic? I'm sure it was. So was practically everything in the 70s and 80s. Misogyny? Perhaps - I haven't seen anything specific, in this piece, just innuendo. Racism? Again, not that I can see here. Lorne failed to change the culture. Somewhat true. But is a world without Lorne Michaels a fairer, juster world, a world where power is held more accountable? I don't think so. I think SNL is an institution that largely helps hold power accountable. And I think most of the people (not all - because it's NOT a cult - as in you aren't actually brainwashed and there are no thoughtcrimes) who came through SNL ended up being more progressive and a force for good than not. I am just a fan and I have no firsthand knowledge but this reminds me of when Al Franken and Aziz Ansari got cancelled for being me-too adjacent.
posted by schlocktrooper at 7:29 PM on August 17, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 7:29 PM on August 17, 2023 [19 favorites]
He’s a fairly progressive hippie? Oh come on.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:32 PM on August 17, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:32 PM on August 17, 2023 [35 favorites]
I knew a lot of these stories individually, but seeing them all brought together makes for a sobering read.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Marc Maron spent literally YEARS of his podcast interviewing SNL alums trying to get dirt on Michaels. He's a mammoth figure and has been for decades, and I've long wondered what becomes of SNL after he's gone. Does he have any sort of protege he's training? It's all such a strong cult of personality it's really sort of amazing.
What I want, more than anything, is to get every single living SNL alum together in a giant theater and have them all spend an hour or two tossing Lorne imitations back and forth at each other.
posted by hippybear at 7:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
What I want, more than anything, is to get every single living SNL alum together in a giant theater and have them all spend an hour or two tossing Lorne imitations back and forth at each other.
posted by hippybear at 7:40 PM on August 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am just a fan and I have no firsthand knowledge
(a) Sure person with user name “schlocktrooper” who seems to have joined just to post this comment.
(b) On the other hand, I do find your claim to lack of knowledge credible given the remainder of the comment.
posted by eviemath at 7:41 PM on August 17, 2023 [63 favorites]
(a) Sure person with user name “schlocktrooper” who seems to have joined just to post this comment.
(b) On the other hand, I do find your claim to lack of knowledge credible given the remainder of the comment.
posted by eviemath at 7:41 PM on August 17, 2023 [63 favorites]
This article is really good in the sense that it's not really about Lorne Michaels, but about the house that Lorne Michaels built, and the way he went about building it. It's very stark in its presentation of one the great dilemmas we face in the world today: how does one hate the creator while loving his creation?
posted by lhauser at 7:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by lhauser at 7:43 PM on August 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
> But is a world without Lorne Michaels a fairer, juster world, a world where power is held more accountable? I don't think so.
Eh, someone would have filled the role—it's not like comedians and comedy weren't already primed or organized to start holding a mirror up to society and to hold people accountable—but it's also not like comedy wasn't also primed in the opposite direction, to punch down and to abuse the power of laughter. Such has been the case ever since someone slipped on a banana peel, and someone else provided an empathetic but witty commentary about it. Both styles would have continued to evolve side-by-side whether or not Lorne Michaels was born.
I think it's boiling down not to that Lorne played both sides of this simplistic dichotomy, and successfully; but more that he created and perpetuated a toxic workplace environment to achieve this—which wasn't necessary. It's not a simple, "those looking for fame/power/influence are the most likely to abuse it" argument, because plenty of beloved media dynasties were born under much better and much worse conditions. Lorne is one personality in a wide spectrum of producers with such power and lasting influence.
posted by not_on_display at 7:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Eh, someone would have filled the role—it's not like comedians and comedy weren't already primed or organized to start holding a mirror up to society and to hold people accountable—but it's also not like comedy wasn't also primed in the opposite direction, to punch down and to abuse the power of laughter. Such has been the case ever since someone slipped on a banana peel, and someone else provided an empathetic but witty commentary about it. Both styles would have continued to evolve side-by-side whether or not Lorne Michaels was born.
I think it's boiling down not to that Lorne played both sides of this simplistic dichotomy, and successfully; but more that he created and perpetuated a toxic workplace environment to achieve this—which wasn't necessary. It's not a simple, "those looking for fame/power/influence are the most likely to abuse it" argument, because plenty of beloved media dynasties were born under much better and much worse conditions. Lorne is one personality in a wide spectrum of producers with such power and lasting influence.
posted by not_on_display at 7:53 PM on August 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
On the one hand, I think that we should ignore anything that feels like baiting by trolls.
On the other hand, the idea that SNL is still countercultural is funnier than anything I've seen on SNL in the last three decades.
posted by Pitachu at 7:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [51 favorites]
On the other hand, the idea that SNL is still countercultural is funnier than anything I've seen on SNL in the last three decades.
posted by Pitachu at 7:54 PM on August 17, 2023 [51 favorites]
The author seems to have quite the grudge against SNL.
Catfished
Cris Italian’s take
posted by Ideefixe at 7:55 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Catfished
Cris Italian’s take
posted by Ideefixe at 7:55 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
SNL sucks because Lorne sucks, but the terribleness is Lorne alone. As noted above - he will never ever retire.
posted by zenon at 8:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by zenon at 8:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
That medium link is bizarre—what did I just read? Why is this guys defense of those claiming vaccines cause autism interspersed with his attacks on the author?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:06 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:06 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
I was starting to bend in my opinion until very near the end of the piece, where the author blamed the phenomenon of celebrity (and Michaels' part in it in particular) for the deaths of John Belushi and Chris Farley. If celebritude put additional pressures on them, it also gave them resources to fight their addictions that a lot of non-celebrities really don't have.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:08 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:08 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
. I am just a fan and I have no firsthand knowledge but this reminds me of when Al Franken and Aziz Ansari got cancelled for being me-too adjacent.
Al Franken got cancelled for groping a woman, which we have a photo of. Ansari has not been cancelled—he’s still got his Netflix show and comedy career! Find another pair to weep for.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
Al Franken got cancelled for groping a woman, which we have a photo of. Ansari has not been cancelled—he’s still got his Netflix show and comedy career! Find another pair to weep for.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2023 [36 favorites]
Eh. The claim wasn’t supported by much direct evidence, no, but also the resources people need to fight addictions are emotional and social-communal, not so much monetary or para-social. Celebrity status may well be orthogonal to that, but there’s nothing about celebrity that makes people necessarily emotionally healthier or able to find or build supportive community. (Yes, rich people can afford to hire good therapists at least, but cultural impediments mean that they don’t necessarily choose to spend their money in that way.)
posted by eviemath at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:22 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think SNL is an institution that largely helps hold power accountable.
Lol oh give me a break, they literally invited Trump to host while he was running in 2015. Sooo countercultural
posted by windbox at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2023 [55 favorites]
Lol oh give me a break, they literally invited Trump to host while he was running in 2015. Sooo countercultural
posted by windbox at 8:35 PM on August 17, 2023 [55 favorites]
Wait, is it possible we got another Scott Adams on our hands here with schlocktrooper?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 9:02 PM on August 17, 2023 [19 favorites]
Well, me-too adjacent is the cutesiest euphemism for creep-ass predator since funny uncle.
Lorne, if that is you, can you make paragraphs next time? I grew up on Canadian comedy, right? So surely you’ll appreciate my need to sip slightly stronger beer and also take puke-breaks without losing my place.
posted by armeowda at 9:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
Lorne, if that is you, can you make paragraphs next time? I grew up on Canadian comedy, right? So surely you’ll appreciate my need to sip slightly stronger beer and also take puke-breaks without losing my place.
posted by armeowda at 9:15 PM on August 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
So this is also my first post after lurking for years. But, is it perhaps worth noting that at least half of the hosts in the past SNL season were from under represented populations as well as about half of the current cast? From my anecdotal experience reading vitriol from right wingers on internet forums, this is a large reason why they hate it. Clearly there is a lot to dislike about Lorne Michaels, but, the other interloper, whether or not they or being disingenuous, isn't pushing a view that is absolutely bonkers. There is a reasonable viewpoint in which, despite Michaels' toxic managerial style, SNL has been a net good for American media. Inviting the orange man on air was obviously a mistake, I expect he regrets it.
posted by omphalos at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by omphalos at 9:23 PM on August 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
(that said, I wish he would throw in the towel)
posted by omphalos at 9:27 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by omphalos at 9:27 PM on August 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hilarious to come back and find people who think I'm Lorne or some kind of troll or shill. Also find it amusing and disturbing that people still think Al Franken groped someone that wasn't a right-wing paid provocateur. Or that Aziz Ansari never got cancelled. Or that SNL wasn't/isn't countercultural. As far as Trump's appearance, remember that Trump was being promoted as a "pied piper" candidate by Hillary-supporters back in 2015 because everyone thought he would be easily defeated. As far as MIchaels' politics, he's a Dem/McCain donor: https://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=Lorne+Michaels&page=2 which anyone could look up. I am not affiliated with Lorne or SNL - actually, I work for a competing media company, nothing to do with comedy but technically we compete with Lorne's parent company. but I admire his contributions to American media, I think he is going to retire at 50 seasons, and I think that he's being unfairly maligned in the piece with no real evidence or anything other than just that standards of comedy were different in the 70s and 80s. and come on now - Davidson, Farley and Belushi? The latter two died of drug overdoses and hard partying, not caused by Lorne's toxic SNL environment, and Davidson is like Lorne's BUDDY and they hang out on vacation. Lorne is a capricious guy, and he has particularities and idiosyncrasies, but you'll need more "there" there to convince me he needs to be cancelled and branded with the label of a cold, old, evil old dude. Citation needed
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:21 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:21 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hilarious to come back and find people who think I'm Lorne
yes but would it kill you to play along?
posted by ryanrs at 10:44 PM on August 17, 2023 [57 favorites]
yes but would it kill you to play along?
posted by ryanrs at 10:44 PM on August 17, 2023 [57 favorites]
As far as MIchaels' politics, he's a Dem/McCain donor
Ah right, one of those real McCain progressives
posted by windbox at 10:50 PM on August 17, 2023 [44 favorites]
Ah right, one of those real McCain progressives
posted by windbox at 10:50 PM on August 17, 2023 [44 favorites]
Al Franken groped someone that wasn't a right-wing paid provocateur
The unconscious person that Franken groped on camera was a right wing troll?
Why even bother making up excuses this lame?
posted by StarkRoads at 11:23 PM on August 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
The unconscious person that Franken groped on camera was a right wing troll?
Why even bother making up excuses this lame?
posted by StarkRoads at 11:23 PM on August 17, 2023 [26 favorites]
Lorne comes from another era where your personal Big Tent could support Ralph Nader (yup), Ritchie Torres, Angus King (I), Kathy Hochul, McCain, Susan Collins (ugh, I know) and Mike Espy. That was also a time when New York had Nelson Rockefeller as governor (and later vice president). I know it's hard to remember but there was a time when it was progressive to be pushing for civil and social progressivism by supporting the moderate members of the other party, for example, Arlen Specter, who switched parties. There were also bad Democrats like Strom Thurmond and Zell Miller. Strom Thurmond was a Democrat until 1964. Lorne Michaels was 20. He may not be much a progressive hippie by today's standards, but he was in the 70s. Have you seen a pic of him? He had long hair, even. The guy was personal friends with Paul Simon. He was born on a Kibbutz for crying out loud. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2012/05/lorne-michaels-snl-anniversary
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:24 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:24 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
thx!
posted by ryanrs at 11:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 11:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
Re: a protégé, I did see a few articles last week (didn't read/save) claiming Tina Fey was possibly to take over. Like everyone else here, I thought, "not while Lorne's still alive" and did not waste time reading them. But since someone asked...
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:39 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ok, let’s play along and assume good faith engagement and not PR astroturfing. You know that progressive means left of liberal, not middle of the road/what would be considered conservative though not far right anywhere outside the US, yeah? None of the politicians listed are progressives. Their WASPy, “genteel” sexism and racism is still sexism and racism. Their neoliberal economics with lip service to caring about people is still neoliberal capitalism. As a Mainer in a former life, I can tell you in particular that Collins has always been a tool who talks out of one side of her mouth about supporting women or such while acting the opposite in terms of her actual voting record; and King only appears liberal now because he’s stayed in the same place while the Republican Party has taken a hard right turn. McCain is a conservative, not a progressive. Also, as current Israeli politics should make eminently clear, being born on a kibbutz is no guarantee against far right political views; and the flip between the two main US political parties on support for Black civil rights within the lifetime and political career of Storm Thurmond is well known. Whatever media you are in, sure hope it’s not news or news-adjacent, because those are some particularly ill-informed takes. Recommended antidote: read back through historian Heather Cox Richardson’s Letters From an American.
posted by eviemath at 11:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 11:49 PM on August 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
I knew Lorne was a complete asshole ever since he shot down Laser Cats. CANCELLED.
posted by alex_skazat at 11:51 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by alex_skazat at 11:51 PM on August 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
@eviemath, you don't need to educate me on the political spectrum. I think you are the uninformed one if you think Lorne Michaels is a WASP (hint: he's a Canadian Jew). Angus King caucuses with the Democrats, so I'm not sure what your problem is with him. I'll take him over Manchin or Feinstein any day. Collins used to claim to be a moderate - I'm not defending her, I hate her, but the point is that for a while, there were Collins and Murkowski, and 48 worse Republican Senators. I am not saying Lorne Michaels is Bernie Sanders. I'm well aware he is not. I said he was progressive FOR A POWERFUL RICH MEDIA GUY. I also said he was progressive FOR THE 1970s. The guy supported NADER! He is not Mike Bloomberg. A kibbutz, in case you were not aware, is basically a socialist communal farm, and most Israelis don't live on one. Most people who grew up on one are pretty progressive. It's like a Montessori school but in life. You don't need to take my word for it. I grew up in New York. Nor should you paint Israeli politics as a monolith. I'm no big fan of Israeli politics. But there is a robust and loud protest movement, and several factions (same with the Palestinians, etc.) Bottom line: no evidence implicating Lorne Michaels in the patriarchy specifically.
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Truly hilarious, also, don't you think if there was pro-Lorne PR astroturfing it would be BETTER than this?
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:06 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:06 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ralph Nader isn't a progressive?
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a classic dichotomy; the type of person who can make things happen usually has accompanying negative traits that only get amplified as their projects expand. And in the world of commerce, the only thing that really matters is success-- if Lorne's behavior was so toxic as to repel talent, he would no longer be in his position, as the show does not work without top talent. But as long as the ratings are good and the talent sticks around, his management style will be tolerated. We see this at basically every level of business.
As a fan of SNL I've been listening to the "Fly on the Wall" podcast. While every guest critiques Lorne to some degree, no one ever says a bad word about him. They are probably afraid of pissing off someone powerful, so if the dam ever breaks or if he retires/dies etc., we'll probably finally get the darker stories.
posted by chaz at 3:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a fan of SNL I've been listening to the "Fly on the Wall" podcast. While every guest critiques Lorne to some degree, no one ever says a bad word about him. They are probably afraid of pissing off someone powerful, so if the dam ever breaks or if he retires/dies etc., we'll probably finally get the darker stories.
posted by chaz at 3:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
but he grew up on a kibbutz
so for those of you who havent heard what a kibbutz is .... basically its like confession that absolves you of your sins, or participation in the patriarchy or racism, (but preemptively, and for jews only)
no, seriously
posted by lalochezia at 3:31 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
so for those of you who havent heard what a kibbutz is .... basically its like confession that absolves you of your sins, or participation in the patriarchy or racism, (but preemptively, and for jews only)
no, seriously
posted by lalochezia at 3:31 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
In a post-SNL era, could we see more of a British-style proliferation of comedy shows? Obviously other comedy shows exist on American tv, I assume, but they aren't household names the way a number of different shows seem to be in the UK.
Is SNL even a household name in its own right these days? If it wasn't for us olds clinging to the glory days, would middle & high school kids be watching it?
(This is really close to asking "is SNL still funny" but I'm more wondering how much cultural power SNL has at present because I'm out of the loop.)
posted by Baethan at 3:37 AM on August 18, 2023
Is SNL even a household name in its own right these days? If it wasn't for us olds clinging to the glory days, would middle & high school kids be watching it?
(This is really close to asking "is SNL still funny" but I'm more wondering how much cultural power SNL has at present because I'm out of the loop.)
posted by Baethan at 3:37 AM on August 18, 2023
Long hair? Well, damn.
posted by TedW at 4:06 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by TedW at 4:06 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
schlocktrooper, on re-reading my comment you’ll hopefully notice this time that I described the politicians in your list of middle-of-the-road politicians that you said Michaels supports were WASPy, not Michaels himself. I could make a stronger statement I suppose, since most (all?) of them are actual WASPs, not just WASPy. And yea, I know what a kibbutz is. Cute way of avoiding the actual critique that growing up on one doesn’t immediately lead to progressive politics as an adult.
Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are progressives. Progressives are to the left of liberals. The current incarnation of Biden is still a liberal. King, along with the centrist wing of the Democratic Party, are centrists. In any other country, Manchin would be considered conservative. Sinema is a Libertarian/her politics seem to be more centered around herself than any particular point on the political spectrum.
While not a politician, we could evaluate Michaels’ management style in terms of how well it aligns with progressive ideals. When we do so, we see that he is mildly antagonistic toward labor rights, gets quite low marks on creating positive and worker-centered working conditions, is quite invested in a hierarchical rather than equitable power structure, and continues to resist the idea that structural changes are needed to address systemic racism and sexism within his organization. So: definitely not progressive. Not by a long shot.
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez are progressives. Progressives are to the left of liberals. The current incarnation of Biden is still a liberal. King, along with the centrist wing of the Democratic Party, are centrists. In any other country, Manchin would be considered conservative. Sinema is a Libertarian/her politics seem to be more centered around herself than any particular point on the political spectrum.
While not a politician, we could evaluate Michaels’ management style in terms of how well it aligns with progressive ideals. When we do so, we see that he is mildly antagonistic toward labor rights, gets quite low marks on creating positive and worker-centered working conditions, is quite invested in a hierarchical rather than equitable power structure, and continues to resist the idea that structural changes are needed to address systemic racism and sexism within his organization. So: definitely not progressive. Not by a long shot.
posted by eviemath at 4:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
It’s really frustrating, and not really the responsibility of us, to explain the broad contours of US politics. But “oh he’s a democrat, therefore he has leftist politics “ is a dumbfounding statement made in 1990 let alone 2023!!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:14 AM on August 18, 2023 [18 favorites]
SNL single-handedly brought down Sarah Palin.
posted by Melismata at 4:21 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 4:21 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
The kids these days get their comedy from YouTube and tiktock. SNL is still relevant to the extent that clips from it circulate on those platforms, I think.
I'm sure Lorne Michaels can be kind of a jerk, probably in the same way that a lot of ambitious people are jerks -- controlling, perfectionist, careless about whose feelings have to get hurt for him to achieve his goals. That's what I see in the anecdotes in this story: garden variety rudeness and bad bossitude. The linked piece is actually kind of short on revealing anecdotes about Michaels himself, though, and long on adjectives. "Cold, manipulative [...] weird, old-fashioned [...] starfucker [...] white-bread [...] horrifying" I mean -- I get it, you don't like the guy! But "show, don't tell," you know?
SNL has had a pretty wholesome cultural impact overall, as far as I can tell, even if not "progressive." It's helped some funny people start their careers, including some funny people from underrepresented groups. It's mocked a lot of bigots, and made me laugh every now and then.
Also, I dunno, is "TV executive" a role you can fill without making some pretty "cold, manipulative" decisions? Is he really worse than the average person in that job? And is it really fair to hold one guy responsible for all the bad behavior and personal problems of the people who worked for him, let alone for the our cultural obsession with celebrity? I think maybe not.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:27 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm sure Lorne Michaels can be kind of a jerk, probably in the same way that a lot of ambitious people are jerks -- controlling, perfectionist, careless about whose feelings have to get hurt for him to achieve his goals. That's what I see in the anecdotes in this story: garden variety rudeness and bad bossitude. The linked piece is actually kind of short on revealing anecdotes about Michaels himself, though, and long on adjectives. "Cold, manipulative [...] weird, old-fashioned [...] starfucker [...] white-bread [...] horrifying" I mean -- I get it, you don't like the guy! But "show, don't tell," you know?
SNL has had a pretty wholesome cultural impact overall, as far as I can tell, even if not "progressive." It's helped some funny people start their careers, including some funny people from underrepresented groups. It's mocked a lot of bigots, and made me laugh every now and then.
Also, I dunno, is "TV executive" a role you can fill without making some pretty "cold, manipulative" decisions? Is he really worse than the average person in that job? And is it really fair to hold one guy responsible for all the bad behavior and personal problems of the people who worked for him, let alone for the our cultural obsession with celebrity? I think maybe not.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:27 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
That's what I see in the anecdotes in this story: garden variety rudeness and bad bossitude
Guess you skipped over the part where Horacio Sanz molested a child at an SNL party and Lorne has been covering for him?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Guess you skipped over the part where Horacio Sanz molested a child at an SNL party and Lorne has been covering for him?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I guess I did. Where does it describe Michaels doing anything to "cover for him"?
That seemed like an anecdote about Horatio Sanz being a bad person and the author blaming Lorne Michaels for it?
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:34 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
That seemed like an anecdote about Horatio Sanz being a bad person and the author blaming Lorne Michaels for it?
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:34 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't get the argument that
SNL is a uniquely toxic institution that creates a level of celebrity that irrevocably warps everyone involved into a moral monster or a premature death (or both)
AND
It's really a shame that there weren't more women and minorities on the show.
posted by kingdead at 4:36 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
SNL is a uniquely toxic institution that creates a level of celebrity that irrevocably warps everyone involved into a moral monster or a premature death (or both)
AND
It's really a shame that there weren't more women and minorities on the show.
posted by kingdead at 4:36 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
SNL is only relevant today in as much as it is a decent trigram for crossword fill.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:41 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:41 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'll be real with y'all, the fact that SNL still has any sort of cultural impact in the year of our Audre Lorde 2023 is weird to me. I cannot name a single person I know who watches it.
posted by Kitteh at 4:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, the entertainment industry in general is a toxic institution that creates levels of celebrity that are not good for people, and it is also a bad thing that it doesn't have more opportunities for women and people of color, because
a) although women and people of color are not saints or incapable of harassment or creating hostile work environments, it is likely that we won't get better, less toxic institutions without creating more opportunities for women and people of color
b) Movies and TV have an immense level of cultural power, and celebrities have an immense level of cultural power, and it is a bad thing if that cultural power is restricted to white men and to cultural products that center white men; to whatever degree our ability to imagine other futures and other ways of being is influenced by what we see in movies and TV, it is bad if what we see in movies and TV is stereotypical and racist
c) I don't want to be paternalistic about people's right to choose things that might be painful or harmful. You might get a lot of shards of glass in your face when you break a glass ceiling, and still think it's good that the glass ceiling got broken. However much it was a terrible experience to be involved with SNL, a lot of people - including some women, and some people of color - got really good careers out of it, and I think it would be a bad thing for those career opportunities to only have gone to white men.
posted by Jeanne at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
a) although women and people of color are not saints or incapable of harassment or creating hostile work environments, it is likely that we won't get better, less toxic institutions without creating more opportunities for women and people of color
b) Movies and TV have an immense level of cultural power, and celebrities have an immense level of cultural power, and it is a bad thing if that cultural power is restricted to white men and to cultural products that center white men; to whatever degree our ability to imagine other futures and other ways of being is influenced by what we see in movies and TV, it is bad if what we see in movies and TV is stereotypical and racist
c) I don't want to be paternalistic about people's right to choose things that might be painful or harmful. You might get a lot of shards of glass in your face when you break a glass ceiling, and still think it's good that the glass ceiling got broken. However much it was a terrible experience to be involved with SNL, a lot of people - including some women, and some people of color - got really good careers out of it, and I think it would be a bad thing for those career opportunities to only have gone to white men.
posted by Jeanne at 5:03 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
SNL has frequently used misogyny as the basis for sketches, it's clear as day.
(Who DOES watch it now? Is it still tweens looking to see their fav band perform?)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:19 AM on August 18, 2023
(Who DOES watch it now? Is it still tweens looking to see their fav band perform?)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:19 AM on August 18, 2023
Misogyny? Perhaps - I haven't seen anything specific, in this piece, just innuendo
I don't even know where to start, there are so many sketches I remember. One that comes to mind is the frequent "joke" of a woman being "barren."
Here is some more yuck: Let's Talk About Saturday Night Live's Complicated Relationship with Black Women
"Jane, you ignorant slut!"
Ugh, I can't go on.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:25 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't even know where to start, there are so many sketches I remember. One that comes to mind is the frequent "joke" of a woman being "barren."
Here is some more yuck: Let's Talk About Saturday Night Live's Complicated Relationship with Black Women
"Jane, you ignorant slut!"
Ugh, I can't go on.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:25 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Melismata: SNL single-handedly brought down Sarah Palin.
Going by the people I worked with in 2008, a group of middle-aged social workers who were likelier to vote Obama but at the very least considering McCain, the one brought down Palin single-handedly was Katie Couric. They couldn’t stop talking about the interview.
posted by Kattullus at 5:29 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Going by the people I worked with in 2008, a group of middle-aged social workers who were likelier to vote Obama but at the very least considering McCain, the one brought down Palin single-handedly was Katie Couric. They couldn’t stop talking about the interview.
posted by Kattullus at 5:29 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
On the other hand, the idea that SNL is still countercultural is funnier than anything I've seen on SNL in the last three decades.
I... think we may have grown up in different cultural universes. I'm also not sure you've watched SNL in the recent past, maybe especially not at a family sit-down where your agricultural-rural extended family are seeing a very modern take on American culture. My favorite was being back in town for a visit when the Wells for Boys fake commercial aired... and my Uncle Wayne (who is now in his 70s) asking me, in all seriousness, if that's how I felt when I was a kid.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:12 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
I... think we may have grown up in different cultural universes. I'm also not sure you've watched SNL in the recent past, maybe especially not at a family sit-down where your agricultural-rural extended family are seeing a very modern take on American culture. My favorite was being back in town for a visit when the Wells for Boys fake commercial aired... and my Uncle Wayne (who is now in his 70s) asking me, in all seriousness, if that's how I felt when I was a kid.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 6:12 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
I know everyone complains about the current era of SNL, but... As a person who has watched the show irregularly in bursts from 1979 or so on... I just don't get the current setup. Far too many cast members. The intro credits are almost laughably long, and many times an entire show will air and you won't even see every performer. Maybe the old shows had a cast that was too small. But now there's so many that they become unrecognizable except for maybe one or two "stars." I just don't think that leads to a coherent television show.
I also think Michaels should leave, but then again, I don't find the show very interesting anymore. And recording it and fast-forwarding through the hundreds of ads and (some) of the cringe-level music performances is the only way to view it these days.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:12 AM on August 18, 2023
I also think Michaels should leave, but then again, I don't find the show very interesting anymore. And recording it and fast-forwarding through the hundreds of ads and (some) of the cringe-level music performances is the only way to view it these days.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:12 AM on August 18, 2023
We don't need to grade people on a curve. I really don't care if Lorne was "progressive" for the 1970s if he cultivates a hostile work environment today.
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by AndrewInDC at 6:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [23 favorites]
I liked this comment from TFA
Either comedy is so crucial that it must be protected at all costs, or it’s a wispy nonentity, so unimportant that no part of it needs to be held to account in any way. Just once I’d love for one of comedy’s powerful gatekeepers to tell us which of these rationales they’d like to permanently hide behind.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:26 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Either comedy is so crucial that it must be protected at all costs, or it’s a wispy nonentity, so unimportant that no part of it needs to be held to account in any way. Just once I’d love for one of comedy’s powerful gatekeepers to tell us which of these rationales they’d like to permanently hide behind.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 6:26 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Who DOES watch it now?
I mean, I do. They have a lot of great comedians, help me keep up with new music, and it's reliably at least a few chuckles. Usually there's at least one bizarro surreal skit that delights me and at least one misogynist joke that annoys me. None of this is to say that Michaels is a good human. But SNL is as good as it was 20/30 years ago and is occasionally sublime (e.g. Dr Weknowdis or the clown who can't get an abortion).
posted by joannemerriam at 6:38 AM on August 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I mean, I do. They have a lot of great comedians, help me keep up with new music, and it's reliably at least a few chuckles. Usually there's at least one bizarro surreal skit that delights me and at least one misogynist joke that annoys me. None of this is to say that Michaels is a good human. But SNL is as good as it was 20/30 years ago and is occasionally sublime (e.g. Dr Weknowdis or the clown who can't get an abortion).
posted by joannemerriam at 6:38 AM on August 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Either comedy is so crucial that it must be protected at all costs, or it’s a wispy nonentity, so unimportant that no part of it needs to be held to account in any way. Just once I’d love for one of comedy’s powerful gatekeepers to tell us which of these rationales they’d like to permanently hide behind.
Can't separate comedy from free speech generally and expect either to survive. So maybe that's what's going on here, because the quote is a Sunday School comment.
posted by Brian B. at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can't separate comedy from free speech generally and expect either to survive. So maybe that's what's going on here, because the quote is a Sunday School comment.
posted by Brian B. at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Jane, you ignorant slut!"
Jane Curtin talking about that line & sexism to The Hollywood Reporter
She said of the sexist humor, "it was stunning because in the improv group I came from in Cambridge, [Massachusetts], there was no sexism. We were all equals; we all respected each other."
The thing about that line that's been funny to me, in isolation, is just the way it mixes a high-brow and low-brow insult. Also the shock factor. It's given me a small internal lol... possibly because it was before my time and I never watched those skits, only ran into on occasion in text on the Internet. (Pre-SlutWalk, iirc). I'm not sure I knew it was from SNL.
Reading about the context is kinda shocking. Kills that last bit of amusement, now that I no longer see it in isolation.
The Word Association sketch with Richard Pryor & Chevy Chase she mentions is. wow. a difficult watch. (Lots of slurs, for people like me who were previously unaware.)
She refers to it being "brilliant" in the sense of it opening discussions about Black people (well, men) representing themselves, as opposed to white men pretending to be black men and doing the discussions for them. I don't know enough about the culture context of that moment to comment on this but it seemed like too big a thing to gloss over from her interview.
Seems generally that SNL's legacy is a mix of good and bad (not sure of the ratio, perhaps that remains to be seen). It seems also that a big part of the bad was that the humor was, at least in some topics, regressive from the beginning.
posted by Baethan at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jane Curtin talking about that line & sexism to The Hollywood Reporter
She said of the sexist humor, "it was stunning because in the improv group I came from in Cambridge, [Massachusetts], there was no sexism. We were all equals; we all respected each other."
The thing about that line that's been funny to me, in isolation, is just the way it mixes a high-brow and low-brow insult. Also the shock factor. It's given me a small internal lol... possibly because it was before my time and I never watched those skits, only ran into on occasion in text on the Internet. (Pre-SlutWalk, iirc). I'm not sure I knew it was from SNL.
Reading about the context is kinda shocking. Kills that last bit of amusement, now that I no longer see it in isolation.
The Word Association sketch with Richard Pryor & Chevy Chase she mentions is. wow. a difficult watch. (Lots of slurs, for people like me who were previously unaware.)
She refers to it being "brilliant" in the sense of it opening discussions about Black people (well, men) representing themselves, as opposed to white men pretending to be black men and doing the discussions for them. I don't know enough about the culture context of that moment to comment on this but it seemed like too big a thing to gloss over from her interview.
Seems generally that SNL's legacy is a mix of good and bad (not sure of the ratio, perhaps that remains to be seen). It seems also that a big part of the bad was that the humor was, at least in some topics, regressive from the beginning.
posted by Baethan at 6:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll be real with y'all, the fact that SNL still has any sort of cultural impact in the year of our Audre Lorde 2023 is weird to me. I cannot name a single person I know who watches it.
yeah, I thought we had all moved on to I Think You Should Leave.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:08 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
yeah, I thought we had all moved on to I Think You Should Leave.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:08 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
yeah, I thought we had all moved on to I Think You Should Leave.
Tim Robinson, of course, was on SNL a decade ago.
posted by dismas at 7:23 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tim Robinson, of course, was on SNL a decade ago.
posted by dismas at 7:23 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
yeah, I thought we had all moved on to I Think You Should Leave.
Tim Robinson, of course, was on SNL a decade ago.
Where he worked with ITYSL co-creator Zach Kanin and the people behind ITYSL production company Lonely Island Classics, who themselves got on SNL because Jimmy Fallon recommended them.
You can move on from SNL, but it's pretty difficult to escape its reach in modern American comedy, which is what Simons' article notes very loudly.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
Tim Robinson, of course, was on SNL a decade ago.
Where he worked with ITYSL co-creator Zach Kanin and the people behind ITYSL production company Lonely Island Classics, who themselves got on SNL because Jimmy Fallon recommended them.
You can move on from SNL, but it's pretty difficult to escape its reach in modern American comedy, which is what Simons' article notes very loudly.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 AM on August 18, 2023 [7 favorites]
I cannot name a single person I know who watches it.
Me either, but I also no longer assume that people are telling me what they are consuming. And I might be chatting with friends or colleagues about things I'm consuming, but then again, I might not. MetaFilter maybe isn't the right place to complain about beanplating, but people who are just going to carp on the politics of the lead actor, stereotypes in the story, or behind the scenes sexism of a show? I've done it myself ("hey, you know the director's a convicted pedophile, right?"), but it's not a conversation I enjoy overall. And that's before you get to the atomization of media, and how solidly people sometimes stick to lanes that don't overlap.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me either, but I also no longer assume that people are telling me what they are consuming. And I might be chatting with friends or colleagues about things I'm consuming, but then again, I might not. MetaFilter maybe isn't the right place to complain about beanplating, but people who are just going to carp on the politics of the lead actor, stereotypes in the story, or behind the scenes sexism of a show? I've done it myself ("hey, you know the director's a convicted pedophile, right?"), but it's not a conversation I enjoy overall. And that's before you get to the atomization of media, and how solidly people sometimes stick to lanes that don't overlap.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I cannot name a single person I know who watches it.
Well, you both know me now, so quit saying that.
You can move on from SNL, but it's pretty difficult to escape its reach in modern American comedy, which is what Simons' article notes very loudly.
Right, that is why I find the comments above saying "who still watches SNL anyway lol" so bizarre. Saturday Night Live is THE sketch comedy show of the last half-century. Anyone else you can think of who's done sketch comedy in that time frame -- the Wayans, Key & Peele, Chapelle, Kids in the Hall, Mr. Show, MADtv, The Chaser, Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler & his posse, the Fremulon posse, The State, Human Giant, Tim & Eric, Nick Cannon's ouevre, Royal Canadian Air Farce, the Upright Citizens Brigade and all their spinoffs, etc etc etc...
Everyone on that list has either worked for SNL, worked with people from SNL, or had their craft shaped by contrast to SNL. So you can say that "Lorne is good" or "Lorne is bad, actually", but to say that "Lorne is irrelevant" reveals that you're thinking shallowly based only on your own reference pools.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:59 AM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
Well, you both know me now, so quit saying that.
You can move on from SNL, but it's pretty difficult to escape its reach in modern American comedy, which is what Simons' article notes very loudly.
Right, that is why I find the comments above saying "who still watches SNL anyway lol" so bizarre. Saturday Night Live is THE sketch comedy show of the last half-century. Anyone else you can think of who's done sketch comedy in that time frame -- the Wayans, Key & Peele, Chapelle, Kids in the Hall, Mr. Show, MADtv, The Chaser, Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler & his posse, the Fremulon posse, The State, Human Giant, Tim & Eric, Nick Cannon's ouevre, Royal Canadian Air Farce, the Upright Citizens Brigade and all their spinoffs, etc etc etc...
Everyone on that list has either worked for SNL, worked with people from SNL, or had their craft shaped by contrast to SNL. So you can say that "Lorne is good" or "Lorne is bad, actually", but to say that "Lorne is irrelevant" reveals that you're thinking shallowly based only on your own reference pools.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 7:59 AM on August 18, 2023 [15 favorites]
SNL has had its ups and downs but I think there's always been something consistently funny since the 90s. I thought I'd hate it after the Tina Fey-Amy Poehler era ended, and I do think that Weekend Update has been pretty weak (I cannot stand Colin Jost for some reason) but even when that's been no good we had Sasheer Zameta and then Ego Nwodim and Kate MacKinnon, and lately Sarah Sherman and James Austin Johnson are highlights. And Kenan Thompson has only become funnier as the years go by.
It's been really clear to me though that the competitive set up that Lorne fosters, where it's everyone for themselves and you have to fight to get your sketches on often leads to some of the weakest writing making it to the best time slots in the show and the best stuff getting cut or being left for the final sketch. Like how did Pete Davidson, one of the worst players the show has ever had, keep being such a centerpiece of the show. And I consistently think the final sketch is the best one, but it's clear that it's put at the end as a kind of punishment. (I think every sketch in I Think You Should Leave would've been one that was either cut or that got the just-before-the-informercials-start timeslot).
It's no suprise that it's a truly toxic work environment that has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. Lorne Michaels really is a kind of summation of boomer hollywood abuse wrapped up into one person. But hey, time comes for all us, and one day SNL as we know it will be no more.
posted by dis_integration at 8:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's been really clear to me though that the competitive set up that Lorne fosters, where it's everyone for themselves and you have to fight to get your sketches on often leads to some of the weakest writing making it to the best time slots in the show and the best stuff getting cut or being left for the final sketch. Like how did Pete Davidson, one of the worst players the show has ever had, keep being such a centerpiece of the show. And I consistently think the final sketch is the best one, but it's clear that it's put at the end as a kind of punishment. (I think every sketch in I Think You Should Leave would've been one that was either cut or that got the just-before-the-informercials-start timeslot).
It's no suprise that it's a truly toxic work environment that has had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the present. Lorne Michaels really is a kind of summation of boomer hollywood abuse wrapped up into one person. But hey, time comes for all us, and one day SNL as we know it will be no more.
posted by dis_integration at 8:10 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
don't you think if there was pro-Lorne PR astroturfing it would be BETTER than this?
not with the writers currently striking, no
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:13 AM on August 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
not with the writers currently striking, no
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:13 AM on August 18, 2023 [26 favorites]
The unconscious person that Franken groped on camera was a right wing troll?
Why even bother making up excuses this lame?
His first accuser, the woman in that photo, is a conservative media personality, and the claim that has been offered in defense of him is that it was actually a joke photo that she was in on. There’s a reason I have to say “first accuser” here, though - there were others, and so it seems like most attempts to exonerate him in some way have to leave it at “okay, he is a little weird and handsy, but he doesn’t mean badly, honest.”
posted by atoxyl at 8:35 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why even bother making up excuses this lame?
His first accuser, the woman in that photo, is a conservative media personality, and the claim that has been offered in defense of him is that it was actually a joke photo that she was in on. There’s a reason I have to say “first accuser” here, though - there were others, and so it seems like most attempts to exonerate him in some way have to leave it at “okay, he is a little weird and handsy, but he doesn’t mean badly, honest.”
posted by atoxyl at 8:35 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Toxic work environment"
I worked in several very large advertising agencies as an art director over 20 years. SNL seems a little like life at one of those agencies, except really compressed and squeezed into only part of the year. That kind of environment is the norm in many creative workspaces, and does not surprise me in the least. Especially (as I noted above) when you have a 1.5 hour show with ~20 actors and another 30 writers. Of course it's going to get cut throat and competitive.
Lorne Michaels is just one massive power player. Dozens more lined up behind and below him. Lorne Michaels could disappear today and it would still remain cut throat and competitive. It's show business. It's human behavior and personal and creative politics combined with titanic sums of money.
Does that make it nice? No. Guess what? I got out of advertising and I work doing a very similar job at a nonprofit that helps people who need help and I no longer have to work so hard or do politics so hard. I sleep much better these days. I guess I wish all the people at SNL were nicer to each other, but I'm not going to hold my breath over it happening, ever.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I worked in several very large advertising agencies as an art director over 20 years. SNL seems a little like life at one of those agencies, except really compressed and squeezed into only part of the year. That kind of environment is the norm in many creative workspaces, and does not surprise me in the least. Especially (as I noted above) when you have a 1.5 hour show with ~20 actors and another 30 writers. Of course it's going to get cut throat and competitive.
Lorne Michaels is just one massive power player. Dozens more lined up behind and below him. Lorne Michaels could disappear today and it would still remain cut throat and competitive. It's show business. It's human behavior and personal and creative politics combined with titanic sums of money.
Does that make it nice? No. Guess what? I got out of advertising and I work doing a very similar job at a nonprofit that helps people who need help and I no longer have to work so hard or do politics so hard. I sleep much better these days. I guess I wish all the people at SNL were nicer to each other, but I'm not going to hold my breath over it happening, ever.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's pretty wild that the earlier post was so preoccupied with both stating that person X was definitely not part of the patriarchy on the one hand and saying all them women were part of a secret conspiracy to discredit person Y on the other.
posted by StarkRoads at 9:00 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by StarkRoads at 9:00 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Even if the writer clearly has major chips on his shoulders about the show and its people, it's a well-written piece only very lightly salted with citations for the most egregious behaviors being referenced.
But this burn of Fallon was just — ahh — *chef's kiss*:
Perhaps these trade-offs are worthwhile for some who make them, but there is no denying they must be made, nor that they invite pressures the human body is not built to sustain. We can see their effects clearly in Pete Davidson’s struggles on the national stage; in the deaths of John Belushi and Chris Farley; in Jimmy Fallon’s eyes every night on The Tonight Show (emph. added)
Fallon probably feels part of his soul curl up whenever people drag up the Trump footage. Or he would, if he had one. SNL and Lorne probably took that from him, too, the poor guy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:11 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But this burn of Fallon was just — ahh — *chef's kiss*:
Perhaps these trade-offs are worthwhile for some who make them, but there is no denying they must be made, nor that they invite pressures the human body is not built to sustain. We can see their effects clearly in Pete Davidson’s struggles on the national stage; in the deaths of John Belushi and Chris Farley; in Jimmy Fallon’s eyes every night on The Tonight Show (emph. added)
Fallon probably feels part of his soul curl up whenever people drag up the Trump footage. Or he would, if he had one. SNL and Lorne probably took that from him, too, the poor guy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:11 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Like how did Pete Davidson, one of the worst players the show has ever had, keep being such a centerpiece of the show.
This may be Lorne's biggest crime. This guy is painfully unfunny! And he doesn't even do characters! Its just him!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
This may be Lorne's biggest crime. This guy is painfully unfunny! And he doesn't even do characters! Its just him!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:18 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Juxtaposing a couple of comments as a starting point for my own thoughts
he created and perpetuated a toxic workplace environment to achieve this—which wasn't necessary
Lorne Michaels is just one massive power player. Dozens more lined up behind and below him. Lorne Michaels could disappear today and it would still remain cut throat and competitive.
I think the thing about having a show run by a guy like Lorne Michaels is - does it have something to do with what has allowed the show to be an institution that lasts 50 years? Almost certainly. He’s equipped to navigate that cutthroat environment, and while he may have a narrow idea of who and what he wants to see on the show, he clearly does care about the product. That beats having things run by a David Zaslav, who is just as cutthroat and also a philistine. On the other hand, is that kind of leadership necessary for the comedy scene? Probably not. Is it good for the comedy scene? I don’t know. It’s good for Lorne Michaels, and for the comedians he likes.
posted by atoxyl at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
he created and perpetuated a toxic workplace environment to achieve this—which wasn't necessary
Lorne Michaels is just one massive power player. Dozens more lined up behind and below him. Lorne Michaels could disappear today and it would still remain cut throat and competitive.
I think the thing about having a show run by a guy like Lorne Michaels is - does it have something to do with what has allowed the show to be an institution that lasts 50 years? Almost certainly. He’s equipped to navigate that cutthroat environment, and while he may have a narrow idea of who and what he wants to see on the show, he clearly does care about the product. That beats having things run by a David Zaslav, who is just as cutthroat and also a philistine. On the other hand, is that kind of leadership necessary for the comedy scene? Probably not. Is it good for the comedy scene? I don’t know. It’s good for Lorne Michaels, and for the comedians he likes.
posted by atoxyl at 9:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't get the argument that
SNL is a uniquely toxic institution that creates a level of celebrity that irrevocably warps everyone involved into a moral monster or a premature death (or both)
AND
It's really a shame that there weren't more women and minorities on the show.
Yeah, why don't women and minorities just stay out of toxic workplaces that influence our culture and their industry and could advance their careers. It's totally fine and not problematic at all to have a weekly water-cooler show that's very white and male. Women and minorities don't need to see themselves on screen, represented in a longstanding cultural institution.
posted by Mavri at 9:37 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
SNL is a uniquely toxic institution that creates a level of celebrity that irrevocably warps everyone involved into a moral monster or a premature death (or both)
AND
It's really a shame that there weren't more women and minorities on the show.
Yeah, why don't women and minorities just stay out of toxic workplaces that influence our culture and their industry and could advance their careers. It's totally fine and not problematic at all to have a weekly water-cooler show that's very white and male. Women and minorities don't need to see themselves on screen, represented in a longstanding cultural institution.
posted by Mavri at 9:37 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
The most vocal Lorne Michaels defender here hasn't closely read the article, and certainly didn't read the Maureen Ryan book excerpt, or this New York mag piece from 1995, because this sentence is from an alternate reality:
I think that he's being unfairly maligned in the piece with no real evidence or anything other than just that standards of comedy were different in the 70s and 80s.
There is *so* much evidence from the 90s and 2000s of Michaels being a shitty leader who created a climate of unnecessary fear, intimidation, sexism and toxicity. Janeane Garofalo left mid-season in 1995, saying it was "the most miserable experience of my life" and calling out the show's ongoing sexism and homophobia. Jay Pharoah said he was almost fired in 2013 for daring to bring up to the Black culture site The Griot that the show needed to pay more attention to Black women comedians and get more of them on staff. He also said he was too often just used for impressions of famous Black figures. Michaels defended using blackface in 2008.
Like I said above, the list goes on and on and on.
posted by mediareport at 9:42 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think that he's being unfairly maligned in the piece with no real evidence or anything other than just that standards of comedy were different in the 70s and 80s.
There is *so* much evidence from the 90s and 2000s of Michaels being a shitty leader who created a climate of unnecessary fear, intimidation, sexism and toxicity. Janeane Garofalo left mid-season in 1995, saying it was "the most miserable experience of my life" and calling out the show's ongoing sexism and homophobia. Jay Pharoah said he was almost fired in 2013 for daring to bring up to the Black culture site The Griot that the show needed to pay more attention to Black women comedians and get more of them on staff. He also said he was too often just used for impressions of famous Black figures. Michaels defended using blackface in 2008.
Like I said above, the list goes on and on and on.
posted by mediareport at 9:42 AM on August 18, 2023 [12 favorites]
Oh, and I love this bit in the original post, from the Live From New York book, about the show not hiring Black women:
Blithely noting that SNL is not taxpayer-funded, Michaels added that he’d seen “fifty or sixty” Black women audition over the years—one or two per season—but “we’re about finding people who are funny.”
Lol oh give me a break, they literally invited Trump to host while he was running in 2015
And as the linked article notes,
gave Donald Trump a hosting gig in 2015 and told his writers to go easy on the candidate:
From the PageSix link: Former “SNL” star Taran Killam says Lorne Michaels told the cast to go easy on Donald Trump during the 2016 campaign. “Lorne was being so specific about what we could and couldn’t say about him,” Killam said on the podcast “I Was There Too.”
He recalled Michaels telling the cast, “You don’t want to vilify him . . . He’s like any New York taxi driver . . . He just says whatever it is he’s thinking. You have to find a way in that makes him likable.”
posted by mediareport at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Blithely noting that SNL is not taxpayer-funded, Michaels added that he’d seen “fifty or sixty” Black women audition over the years—one or two per season—but “we’re about finding people who are funny.”
Lol oh give me a break, they literally invited Trump to host while he was running in 2015
And as the linked article notes,
gave Donald Trump a hosting gig in 2015 and told his writers to go easy on the candidate:
From the PageSix link: Former “SNL” star Taran Killam says Lorne Michaels told the cast to go easy on Donald Trump during the 2016 campaign. “Lorne was being so specific about what we could and couldn’t say about him,” Killam said on the podcast “I Was There Too.”
He recalled Michaels telling the cast, “You don’t want to vilify him . . . He’s like any New York taxi driver . . . He just says whatever it is he’s thinking. You have to find a way in that makes him likable.”
posted by mediareport at 9:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't even want to argue with the low-information posters who still don't know that Franken was framed. Yes, that pic is a right-wing porn star and entertainer who was in on the "joke." The other allegations were bullshit. But Franken is a classy guy so he stepped down voluntarily. Look it up if you don't believe me. The evidence-free mob of the court of public opinion strikes again. How about "innocent until proven guilty" and the "benefit of the doubt" and the "preponderance of the evidence"?
Trying to educate me on the US political spectrum is very silly since apparently some people don't know who Ralph Nader is, a rabid consumer advocate and essentially the "Jill Stein" of the 80s and 90s (actually, he makes Jill look like a small town rube). I'm assuming nobody knows who Mike Espy is either, but look him up. He's from Misssissippi and he ran in a battleground race (which he lost) that would have flipped a seat blue. Lorne Michaels is a guy who has repeatedly supported Democrats, and a few "moderate" Republicans. Are they fairly middle-of-the-road, centrist Democrats in some cases? Sure. But oftentimes those are the only candidates that are able to raise money, win a primary and win a general election. Kathy Hochul was nominated for NY gov after succeeding Cuomo. I voted for her, and gave her money, and so did Lorne. Not because she agrees with my personal politics. She is far more centrist and moderate than I. But she was the candidate, and the alternative was a Republican Trumper. That's America, that is not a Lorne problem. Yes, he supported McCain, who was often seen as a neverTrumper, pre-MAGA-conservative, party-bucking maverick (true or not, that is the perception). But then, as people point out, SNL ruined Palin. SNL also mercilessly mocked George W. Bush for 10 years. And Dole. And HW Bush. And Reagan. And Nixon. And Ford. Sure, they also took a lot of potshots at Bill Clinton, Hillary, Biden and Obama. As they should, because comedy is equal opportunity. The point is that on a scale of "horrible, regressive, right winger" to "AOC/Bernie/Warren level progressive," Lorne Michaels is slightly left of the center. But for the 1970s and 1980s, when there was very little social progress in gay rights, for example, Lorne was a progressive trailblazer. You also have to remember that the major animating social issue of the 60s and 70s was actually being anti-war. It's not fair to judge a 1970s person and institution by 2020s standards of what issues are litmus tests. Almost no workplace was woke in 1985.
I think the poster who said "yeah, that was the business environment" basically has it right. SNL was a boy's club. I'm not arguing that. It had a toxic environment. That's clear. So did practically every other workplace especially in media, advertising, etc, from the 50s until probably the mid-90s when they cleaned up their acts. So it's not fair to single out Lorne Michaels for all the cultural toxicity and the ugly tropes in comedy. Those things were there before Lorne and will be around after he's gone. If there's something specific he did other than defend blackface (which I certainly don't agree with, but that mistake doesn't obviate his entire legacy) or create a writer's room that involves a lot of cutthroat intensity and staying up late and burnout, well, please feel free to continue enlightening me. But what I continue to see in this article is a bunch of scraping together of old stories, rumors, innuendo, and grousing about issues that are systemic and much more pervasive than SNL. SNL reflects the culture, but the art imitates life.
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:30 AM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Trying to educate me on the US political spectrum is very silly since apparently some people don't know who Ralph Nader is, a rabid consumer advocate and essentially the "Jill Stein" of the 80s and 90s (actually, he makes Jill look like a small town rube). I'm assuming nobody knows who Mike Espy is either, but look him up. He's from Misssissippi and he ran in a battleground race (which he lost) that would have flipped a seat blue. Lorne Michaels is a guy who has repeatedly supported Democrats, and a few "moderate" Republicans. Are they fairly middle-of-the-road, centrist Democrats in some cases? Sure. But oftentimes those are the only candidates that are able to raise money, win a primary and win a general election. Kathy Hochul was nominated for NY gov after succeeding Cuomo. I voted for her, and gave her money, and so did Lorne. Not because she agrees with my personal politics. She is far more centrist and moderate than I. But she was the candidate, and the alternative was a Republican Trumper. That's America, that is not a Lorne problem. Yes, he supported McCain, who was often seen as a neverTrumper, pre-MAGA-conservative, party-bucking maverick (true or not, that is the perception). But then, as people point out, SNL ruined Palin. SNL also mercilessly mocked George W. Bush for 10 years. And Dole. And HW Bush. And Reagan. And Nixon. And Ford. Sure, they also took a lot of potshots at Bill Clinton, Hillary, Biden and Obama. As they should, because comedy is equal opportunity. The point is that on a scale of "horrible, regressive, right winger" to "AOC/Bernie/Warren level progressive," Lorne Michaels is slightly left of the center. But for the 1970s and 1980s, when there was very little social progress in gay rights, for example, Lorne was a progressive trailblazer. You also have to remember that the major animating social issue of the 60s and 70s was actually being anti-war. It's not fair to judge a 1970s person and institution by 2020s standards of what issues are litmus tests. Almost no workplace was woke in 1985.
I think the poster who said "yeah, that was the business environment" basically has it right. SNL was a boy's club. I'm not arguing that. It had a toxic environment. That's clear. So did practically every other workplace especially in media, advertising, etc, from the 50s until probably the mid-90s when they cleaned up their acts. So it's not fair to single out Lorne Michaels for all the cultural toxicity and the ugly tropes in comedy. Those things were there before Lorne and will be around after he's gone. If there's something specific he did other than defend blackface (which I certainly don't agree with, but that mistake doesn't obviate his entire legacy) or create a writer's room that involves a lot of cutthroat intensity and staying up late and burnout, well, please feel free to continue enlightening me. But what I continue to see in this article is a bunch of scraping together of old stories, rumors, innuendo, and grousing about issues that are systemic and much more pervasive than SNL. SNL reflects the culture, but the art imitates life.
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:30 AM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
I would argue that the comedy of the 70s - the classic SNL that people usually love like Belushi, Radner, etc. - was funny largely because of the countercultural elements - Carlin, coke, acid, etc. The staying up late, the delirium, the hard partying, the visits from rock stars - that's where the insane Belushi, Aykroyd, and yes Jane Curtin you ignorant slut - that didn't bat an eye in 1975. That isn't Lorne's fault. He's just one of the few things remaining from that era. But that stuff was only funny because of how insane it was, the crucible is where the creativity comes from. Was it necessary? It doesn't matter. Things happen the way they happen. You can't go back in time to 1975. So it's not fair to take a guy who has largely done a lot of good in the world by starting a lot of people's careers and making millions of people laugh, and blame him for all of the things that don't translate culturally from 1975 and are inappropriate now. Jane Curtin or Janeane Garofalo may not have liked the casual misogyny of the 1975, and if it happened today I would say go ahead and castigate those people. But that was something that unfortunately was a big part of 1975. In every industry, in every workplace. I mean for a while it would have been impossible for Jane Curtin to even be a fake newsanchor. I'm not saying the casual misogyny is necessary. Get rid of it, yeah, but there's no 1975 where it would have been solved already by that time unless JFK wasn't assassinated and he makes acid legal in 1965. Seriously, it's just counterfactual and delusional to think that Lorne was going to wake up one day in the 70s and realize he was being mean to Jane.
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:42 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 10:42 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jane Curtin or Janeane Garofalo may not have liked the casual misogyny of the 1975, and if it happened today I would say go ahead and castigate those people.
Ok so...go ahead and castigate the culture of SNL if not now then fairly recently, as people have tried to show you. We aren't all stuck in 1975, but you seem stuck on it...
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ok so...go ahead and castigate the culture of SNL if not now then fairly recently, as people have tried to show you. We aren't all stuck in 1975, but you seem stuck on it...
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hello, new friend schlocktrooper. You're a brand new member of the site -- and welcome! -- so I just wanted to caution that this "taking on all comers" position on Lorne is a really hectic, energy consuming way to spend your first 24 hours on MetaFilter.
You have strong feelings! This is clear. And also it's clear those feelings tie into other feelings you have on US politics and the different ways someone can be progressive in their politics. Other people here do as well, they feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although they may disagree with you.
But since (a) you're not the original poster here, and (b) Lorne Michaels doesn't know or care about this post or need you to defend his honor, maybe consider stepping away from this thread for a while and see what else the site has. Have you checked out FanFare yet?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [30 favorites]
You have strong feelings! This is clear. And also it's clear those feelings tie into other feelings you have on US politics and the different ways someone can be progressive in their politics. Other people here do as well, they feel and think much as you do, care about many of the things you care about, although they may disagree with you.
But since (a) you're not the original poster here, and (b) Lorne Michaels doesn't know or care about this post or need you to defend his honor, maybe consider stepping away from this thread for a while and see what else the site has. Have you checked out FanFare yet?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [30 favorites]
Yeah, why don't women and minorities just stay out of toxic workplaces that influence our culture and their industry and could advance their careers. It's totally fine and not problematic at all to have a weekly water-cooler show that's very white and male. Women and minorities don't need to see themselves on screen, represented in a longstanding cultural institution.
If it's bad as the author paints it to be, then nobody should be in it! White men themselves should have been saved from Lorne!
I'd love to hear about Lorne Michaels's career from someone who isn't pointing at the grapes and listing each and every way in which they are sour. I'm sure there's a lot of critique that focuses on the particular--he's 78, so we'll be hearing it soon, too.
posted by kingdead at 10:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
If it's bad as the author paints it to be, then nobody should be in it! White men themselves should have been saved from Lorne!
I'd love to hear about Lorne Michaels's career from someone who isn't pointing at the grapes and listing each and every way in which they are sour. I'm sure there's a lot of critique that focuses on the particular--he's 78, so we'll be hearing it soon, too.
posted by kingdead at 10:57 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
if not the 2000s.
Keep moving those goalposts. Want to move them to the 2010s, when Jay Pharoah says he was nearly fired for saying there should bemore any Black women on the show?
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Keep moving those goalposts. Want to move them to the 2010s, when Jay Pharoah says he was nearly fired for saying there should be
posted by Etrigan at 11:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
(Iove the implication that we are now free of casual misogyny)
We did it! 🥳
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
We did it! 🥳
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:01 AM on August 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments deleted. Left some for context. Let's avoid turning the thread into a one-on-one discussion. Moreover with a new member.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:12 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 11:12 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
The other allegations were bullshit.
Are we walking back the claim that they were paid trolls?
posted by StarkRoads at 11:19 AM on August 18, 2023
Are we walking back the claim that they were paid trolls?
posted by StarkRoads at 11:19 AM on August 18, 2023
OK, I'll try not to reply anymore after this.
- 2000s: Jay Pharaoh, wasn't fired, and shortly thereafter more black women joined SNL. I say this one shows progress and receptivity to the feedback.
- Casual misogyny, obviously still a thing, but also obviously not as bad in 2023 as it was in 1975. or 1995. or probably 2005.
- Franken: the paid troll I was talking about was one specific person. And how isn't paid troll compatible with it being bullshit? I'm not looking at the notes, but as I recall there were 2 or 3 people and 1 was completely devoid of evidence and had fishy oppo-research circumstances. Just look it up. It's all out there. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/michelle-goldberg-al-franken.html I Was Wrong About Al Franken by Michelle Goldberg NYT.
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:27 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
- 2000s: Jay Pharaoh, wasn't fired, and shortly thereafter more black women joined SNL. I say this one shows progress and receptivity to the feedback.
- Casual misogyny, obviously still a thing, but also obviously not as bad in 2023 as it was in 1975. or 1995. or probably 2005.
- Franken: the paid troll I was talking about was one specific person. And how isn't paid troll compatible with it being bullshit? I'm not looking at the notes, but as I recall there were 2 or 3 people and 1 was completely devoid of evidence and had fishy oppo-research circumstances. Just look it up. It's all out there. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/21/opinion/michelle-goldberg-al-franken.html I Was Wrong About Al Franken by Michelle Goldberg NYT.
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:27 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
As long as misogyny and racism aren't as bad at SNL now, (based on what? Intuition?), criticism is wrong? The thesis here is uncompelling.
I would encourage you to read some of the very good links about SNL posted in the comments, it's still a shitty place with a shitty culture, and we can blame the guy in charge, easily.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would encourage you to read some of the very good links about SNL posted in the comments, it's still a shitty place with a shitty culture, and we can blame the guy in charge, easily.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:32 AM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
TBH I found the article thin and warmed-over. The material has also been better covered in earlier articles, and IMO the info here is pretty much public knowledge at this point.
The examples cited paint the picture of a sexist, high pressure workplace and a capricious, power tripping boss, but these things seem... banal? Like awful, but in a very ordinary way. I don't see how we can criticize Lorne as a particularly egregious example of misogyny and toxicity when the current Prez of the US famously and unashamedly slandered a credible woman (Anita Hill) in the name of 'bipartisanship', and Steve Tyler adopted a 16 year old girl in order to take her across state lines and continue his sexual relationship with her, and both still enjoy relatively untarnished reputations. I'm also thinking of the recent scandal at NorthWestern where the football coach knew of and condoned his players engaging in sexualized hazing of other players, and even picked out players to be hazed.
To me the more interesting story, which these types of profiles never get into, is how this type of personality cult and toxic workplace was enabled by higher ups and the whole system in general, and how it persists to this day. People will continue to be awful, but how do we change the overall culture of institutions to inoculate them against effective but awful leaders?
posted by sid at 11:43 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
The examples cited paint the picture of a sexist, high pressure workplace and a capricious, power tripping boss, but these things seem... banal? Like awful, but in a very ordinary way. I don't see how we can criticize Lorne as a particularly egregious example of misogyny and toxicity when the current Prez of the US famously and unashamedly slandered a credible woman (Anita Hill) in the name of 'bipartisanship', and Steve Tyler adopted a 16 year old girl in order to take her across state lines and continue his sexual relationship with her, and both still enjoy relatively untarnished reputations. I'm also thinking of the recent scandal at NorthWestern where the football coach knew of and condoned his players engaging in sexualized hazing of other players, and even picked out players to be hazed.
To me the more interesting story, which these types of profiles never get into, is how this type of personality cult and toxic workplace was enabled by higher ups and the whole system in general, and how it persists to this day. People will continue to be awful, but how do we change the overall culture of institutions to inoculate them against effective but awful leaders?
posted by sid at 11:43 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
People will continue to be awful, but how do we change the overall culture of institutions to inoculate them against effective but awful leaders?
Perhaps a good start is not reacting to any such accusation by providing three examples of other people who did bad things and calling it all ordinary.
posted by Etrigan at 11:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Perhaps a good start is not reacting to any such accusation by providing three examples of other people who did bad things and calling it all ordinary.
posted by Etrigan at 11:46 AM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Just look it up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden
Many people in his own party regretted calling for Franken to suddenly resign, perhaps learning later how it was a Roger Stone and Alex Jones hit job. It does raise questions about representation, and who is ever going to represent normal people who are looking for more privacy, not morality pretenders.
Reporting in 2019 by New Yorker journalist Jane Mayer documented substantial inaccuracies in Tweeden's allegations.[152] Seven former or current senators who called for Franken's resignation in 2017 told Mayer they regretted doing so. Patrick Leahy said calling for Franken's resignation without having all the facts was "one of the biggest mistakes I've made" as a senator. New Mexico senator Tom Udall said, "I made a mistake. I started having second thoughts shortly after he stepped down. He had the right to be heard by an independent investigative body. I've heard from people around my state, and around the country, saying that they think he got railroaded. It doesn't seem fair. I'm a lawyer. I really believe in due process." Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "It's terrible what happened to him. It was unfair. It took the legs out from under him. He was a very fine senator."[152]
posted by Brian B. at 11:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeann_Tweeden
Many people in his own party regretted calling for Franken to suddenly resign, perhaps learning later how it was a Roger Stone and Alex Jones hit job. It does raise questions about representation, and who is ever going to represent normal people who are looking for more privacy, not morality pretenders.
Reporting in 2019 by New Yorker journalist Jane Mayer documented substantial inaccuracies in Tweeden's allegations.[152] Seven former or current senators who called for Franken's resignation in 2017 told Mayer they regretted doing so. Patrick Leahy said calling for Franken's resignation without having all the facts was "one of the biggest mistakes I've made" as a senator. New Mexico senator Tom Udall said, "I made a mistake. I started having second thoughts shortly after he stepped down. He had the right to be heard by an independent investigative body. I've heard from people around my state, and around the country, saying that they think he got railroaded. It doesn't seem fair. I'm a lawyer. I really believe in due process." Former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "It's terrible what happened to him. It was unfair. It took the legs out from under him. He was a very fine senator."[152]
posted by Brian B. at 11:50 AM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Perhaps a good start is not reacting to any such accusation by providing three examples of other people who did bad things and calling it all ordinary.
This is journalism. It's supposed to uncover new and notable things and provide new insights. This article does none of these things. And yes, it's banal. It's unremarkable to me because individuals like this exist in pretty much every institution and continue to be supported by upper management.
Why is that? How do we stop it at an organizational / cultural level? To me that's the interesting question.
posted by sid at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023
This is journalism. It's supposed to uncover new and notable things and provide new insights. This article does none of these things. And yes, it's banal. It's unremarkable to me because individuals like this exist in pretty much every institution and continue to be supported by upper management.
Why is that? How do we stop it at an organizational / cultural level? To me that's the interesting question.
posted by sid at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023
https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-pop-culture/saturday-night-live-announces-first-nonbinary-cast-member-rcna47993
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I began watching SNL from the very first show aired when I was in high school and it was a huge influence. TV was pretty much a wasteland (with a few exceptions like MASH or Mary Tyler Moore). The top shows were Three’s Company, Wonder Woman or The Dukes of Hazzard. Misogyny wasn’t frowned on… it was a selling point. And the top comedy acts were still Bob Hope or Dean Martin’s Celebrity Roasts (with the Gold Digger Dancers). It was pretty depressing.
SNL was a show that appealed to my generation. It was irreverent, zany, young and didn’t have the ubiquitous laugh track. Everyone at school talked about the last episode. There were the silly sketches about Samurai Laundromats and Bass-O-Matics but also some that made a deeper impression. I still remember watching the Richard Pryor / Chevy Chase word association sketch at a local college dorm. My friends (all white) and the dorm-mate and his friends (who were black) were all crying with laughter at the end and later talked about race and our differences. And I began to understand that not everyone lived the sheltered suburban life that I had.
I understand that SNL is not the same, has its problems and some don’t think it’s funny. This article and the others about the darker side of the show are sad to read and I certainly don't believe there's any excuse for it. But for me, the show has brought some joy and understanding along with a chance to laugh on Saturday night.
posted by jabo at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
SNL was a show that appealed to my generation. It was irreverent, zany, young and didn’t have the ubiquitous laugh track. Everyone at school talked about the last episode. There were the silly sketches about Samurai Laundromats and Bass-O-Matics but also some that made a deeper impression. I still remember watching the Richard Pryor / Chevy Chase word association sketch at a local college dorm. My friends (all white) and the dorm-mate and his friends (who were black) were all crying with laughter at the end and later talked about race and our differences. And I began to understand that not everyone lived the sheltered suburban life that I had.
I understand that SNL is not the same, has its problems and some don’t think it’s funny. This article and the others about the darker side of the show are sad to read and I certainly don't believe there's any excuse for it. But for me, the show has brought some joy and understanding along with a chance to laugh on Saturday night.
posted by jabo at 11:51 AM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
But, Brian B there were other women besides Tweeden, though - women who were on his side politically and excited to meet him right up until they were groped.
posted by Selena777 at 11:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 11:53 AM on August 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Women and minorities don't need to see themselves on screen, represented in a longstanding cultural institution.
Right now, grabbed from Wikipedia, the SNL cast is white men Mikey Day, Andrew Dismukes, Colin Jost, James Austin Johnson, Michael Longfellow, white women Chloe Fineman, Heidi Gardner, Lauren Holt, and Sarah Sherman, the non-binary white person Molly Kearney, non-white men Aristotle Athari, Marcello Hernandez, Chris Redd, Devon Walker, and Bowen Yang and non-white women Punkie Johnson and Ego Nwodim. Weekend Update definitely needs to get less bro-ey (maybe they will replace Michael Che with a woman! haha jk no they won't), but they are definitely improving over, say, a decade ago. It will be interesting to see what happens when Michaels finally retires, if the show 1. gets to be really egalitarian, or 2. if it just continues as-is because the people over Michaels want it that way, or 3. if it falls apart or ends because he really is that central. I don't know, I am hoping for the first, expect the second, and will be surprised by the third.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Right now, grabbed from Wikipedia, the SNL cast is white men Mikey Day, Andrew Dismukes, Colin Jost, James Austin Johnson, Michael Longfellow, white women Chloe Fineman, Heidi Gardner, Lauren Holt, and Sarah Sherman, the non-binary white person Molly Kearney, non-white men Aristotle Athari, Marcello Hernandez, Chris Redd, Devon Walker, and Bowen Yang and non-white women Punkie Johnson and Ego Nwodim. Weekend Update definitely needs to get less bro-ey (maybe they will replace Michael Che with a woman! haha jk no they won't), but they are definitely improving over, say, a decade ago. It will be interesting to see what happens when Michaels finally retires, if the show 1. gets to be really egalitarian, or 2. if it just continues as-is because the people over Michaels want it that way, or 3. if it falls apart or ends because he really is that central. I don't know, I am hoping for the first, expect the second, and will be surprised by the third.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:54 AM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Franken: the paid troll I was talking about was one specific person. And how isn't paid troll compatible with it being bullshit?
The original claim was:
people still think Al Franken groped someone that wasn't a right-wing paid provocateur.
The article mentions eight accusers, I don't see anything that demonstrates that any of them were 'paid provocateurs' as a matter of fact.
posted by StarkRoads at 12:00 PM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
The original claim was:
people still think Al Franken groped someone that wasn't a right-wing paid provocateur.
The article mentions eight accusers, I don't see anything that demonstrates that any of them were 'paid provocateurs' as a matter of fact.
posted by StarkRoads at 12:00 PM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am going to say something crazy: talent is not rare. Talent is plentiful. I can go to any comedy theater or club or DIY show in New York tonight and see professional-grade work by some of the funniest people I’ll ever see.
Strong disagree with this. I've seen a lot of sketch shows here in NYC since the lockdown ended, and talent is really fucking rare. So rare. I'm at a point where I can't anymore, especially if the show is free, double super especially if the show is free and they're handing out White Claw at the door.
The only thing worse than sitting through the actual show is when the performers hang around the lobby after and you have to say something like Good show! even though you're thinking Have you considered getting a certificate in Project Management?
posted by betweenthebars at 12:11 PM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
Strong disagree with this. I've seen a lot of sketch shows here in NYC since the lockdown ended, and talent is really fucking rare. So rare. I'm at a point where I can't anymore, especially if the show is free, double super especially if the show is free and they're handing out White Claw at the door.
The only thing worse than sitting through the actual show is when the performers hang around the lobby after and you have to say something like Good show! even though you're thinking Have you considered getting a certificate in Project Management?
posted by betweenthebars at 12:11 PM on August 18, 2023 [10 favorites]
The general category of “but it was acceptable at the time” arguments piss me off. No, in almost all cases, it wasn’t. It’s just that the majority of people at the time who didn’t think that whatever the “it” was was acceptable were generally prohibited from having an opinion or were not considered important enough that their opinions mattered. The extreme example of this, of course, is the “slavery was accepted at the time” claim. Not even among white people with enough wealth to be educated and write down their thoughts or have their opinions publicly listened to and recorded, but I guarantee you slavery was not “accepted” by Black or other enslaved people. It’s hard to get data of course, but I would not be terribly shocked if the actual proportion of white people in the US who would be perfectly okay with slavery were it to somehow return (eg. through fascist takeover via the current Republican Party) is about the same now as it was when slavery was legal. It’s just that the rest of us actually get to vote and participate in politics now.
posted by eviemath at 12:19 PM on August 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 12:19 PM on August 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
“Yes, that pic is a right-wing porn star and entertainer who was in on the joke.”
Slut-shaming is so far beyond the norms of what I thought was acceptable discourse on MetaFilter that I’m shocked this comment has been allowed to stand.
posted by Kattullus at 12:24 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Slut-shaming is so far beyond the norms of what I thought was acceptable discourse on MetaFilter that I’m shocked this comment has been allowed to stand.
posted by Kattullus at 12:24 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
What the heck, I'm not shaming Leann Tweeden for being a porn star, I'm saying she was a right-winger who wasn't who she claimed to be and then went on a Fox News victory lap.
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:27 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:27 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
But, Brian B there were other women besides Tweeden, though - women who were on his side politically and excited to meet him right up until they were groped.
Not hard to believe because the details are not shocking, but what is hard to believe is that more than half of white women voted for Trump, so the strategy of ejecting a cad to look honorable misreads the political game and a culture that clearly isn't putting politicians on any pedestal. Let the truth be told, but let his voters bury him.
posted by Brian B. at 12:30 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not hard to believe because the details are not shocking, but what is hard to believe is that more than half of white women voted for Trump, so the strategy of ejecting a cad to look honorable misreads the political game and a culture that clearly isn't putting politicians on any pedestal. Let the truth be told, but let his voters bury him.
posted by Brian B. at 12:30 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just the fact that Lorne Michaels, a TV clown man, is being compared to slaveholders is mind-boggling to me.
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:30 PM on August 18, 2023
posted by schlocktrooper at 12:30 PM on August 18, 2023
Your either lack of reading comprehension or lack of participation in good faith in claiming that I was comparing Lorne Michaels to slaveholders is mind-boggling to me. Also, Michaels is an executive producer, not a clown. It’s a significantly different job.
posted by eviemath at 12:43 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 12:43 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
so the strategy of ejecting a cad to look honorable misreads the political game and a culture that clearly isn't putting politicians on any pedestal. Let the truth be told, but let his voters bury him.
Alternately, not putting up with a man who sexually assaults women because sexually assaulting women is wrong, that is a moral choice and not a political one.
There is no single person who's worth more than the people they drive out with toxic behavior, that's kind of the point.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:47 PM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Alternately, not putting up with a man who sexually assaults women because sexually assaulting women is wrong, that is a moral choice and not a political one.
There is no single person who's worth more than the people they drive out with toxic behavior, that's kind of the point.
posted by Gygesringtone at 12:47 PM on August 18, 2023 [9 favorites]
Also, perhaps I’m missing your point, BrianB, but it seems fairly obvious to me that Franken voters have different values than Trump voters, and thus expect different behavior from their representatives. That’s… not complicated?
posted by eviemath at 12:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 12:48 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
This piece is weird, I think just five paragraphs in.
It describes SNL as a "chokepoint" for comedians, as if failing to come up through SNL meant you could not be successful as there are no other paths.
And yet ... a lot of comedians did that over the last nearly 50 years without starting as a hopeful unknown at SNL.
I'll read the rest, but it feels like the author has only shown that SNL is a launching point, but would rather call it a negative thing and ignore ... Carson, Youtube, MadTV, Cable, Podcasts, Books, Netflix, non-Lorne movies, etc that have existed over the past fifty years as places one might launch a career.
posted by zippy at 1:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
It describes SNL as a "chokepoint" for comedians, as if failing to come up through SNL meant you could not be successful as there are no other paths.
And yet ... a lot of comedians did that over the last nearly 50 years without starting as a hopeful unknown at SNL.
I'll read the rest, but it feels like the author has only shown that SNL is a launching point, but would rather call it a negative thing and ignore ... Carson, Youtube, MadTV, Cable, Podcasts, Books, Netflix, non-Lorne movies, etc that have existed over the past fifty years as places one might launch a career.
posted by zippy at 1:07 PM on August 18, 2023 [4 favorites]
Alternately, not putting up with a man who sexually assaults women because sexually assaulting women is wrong, that is a moral choice and not a political one.
That's now a legal accusation, which calls for his arrest and conviction. The moral part is a cheap substitute, because in some parts of the world they ban women from public life based on so-called morals, being relative to the culture of course.
posted by Brian B. at 1:11 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's now a legal accusation, which calls for his arrest and conviction. The moral part is a cheap substitute, because in some parts of the world they ban women from public life based on so-called morals, being relative to the culture of course.
posted by Brian B. at 1:11 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe this is the essence of the confusion here? Michaels is not a comedian, he’s a producer. As a executive producer, overseeing workplace culture is literally part of his job. That lots of bosses ignore this part of their job doesn’t make negative workplace culture outcomes any less their responsibility. The workplace culture of SNL is what it is because of decisions that Michaels made, including decisions to do nothing (“not deciding” is just deciding in favour of the status quo when it is your job and responsibility to make decisions). That the workplace culture at SNL is cutthroat or racist or sexist or classist or whatever is a direct reflection on Michaels and the decisions he has made. Someone sexually assaulted someone else at your office party? That’s your responsibility when you’re the boss. Non-employee or family member minors at your office party? And they get sexually assaulted? Also your responsibility when you’re the boss. Ignored state COVID workplace safety requirements while they were in place? That’s a decision that Michaels made and is fully responsible for. Them’s the breaks when you’re at the top of the authority chain in a strongly hierarchically organized system.
On the creative side, the fact that Michaels did exercise a final yea/nay vote on every skit that made it to air also means that he ultimately bears responsibility for the cultural impact of those decisions that he set up his show so that he had the exclusive authority to make.
My opinions about the workplace culture of SNL based on what I’ve read (negative), or the cultural impact (quite significant, though not an exclusive bottleneck for comedy in the past decade at least; more status quo preserving than not; of decidedly mixed quality or actual humor value to my personal tastes) aside, arguing that Michaels isn’t responsible for either of those two details, whether you think they are good or bad, is nescient.
posted by eviemath at 1:16 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
On the creative side, the fact that Michaels did exercise a final yea/nay vote on every skit that made it to air also means that he ultimately bears responsibility for the cultural impact of those decisions that he set up his show so that he had the exclusive authority to make.
My opinions about the workplace culture of SNL based on what I’ve read (negative), or the cultural impact (quite significant, though not an exclusive bottleneck for comedy in the past decade at least; more status quo preserving than not; of decidedly mixed quality or actual humor value to my personal tastes) aside, arguing that Michaels isn’t responsible for either of those two details, whether you think they are good or bad, is nescient.
posted by eviemath at 1:16 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
Alternately, not putting up with a man who sexually assaults women because sexually assaulting women is wrong, that is a moral choice and not a political one.
That's now a legal accusation, which calls for his arrest and conviction. The moral part is a cheap substitute, because in some parts of the world they ban women from public life based on so-called morals, being relative to the culture of course.
Nah, different situations are different. I'm perfectly fine believing there's a difference between barring a large section of the population from existing in public and not tolerating famous dudes assaulting women.
posted by Gygesringtone at 1:25 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
That's now a legal accusation, which calls for his arrest and conviction. The moral part is a cheap substitute, because in some parts of the world they ban women from public life based on so-called morals, being relative to the culture of course.
Nah, different situations are different. I'm perfectly fine believing there's a difference between barring a large section of the population from existing in public and not tolerating famous dudes assaulting women.
posted by Gygesringtone at 1:25 PM on August 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
BrianB, your comment is nonsensical? Committing sexual assault is a legal offence (though that depended on one’s relationship to the victim in most states through the early 90s when marital rape was recognized more widely as criminal sexual assault). Abetting the commission of a sexual assault, say by knowingly endangering a minor in some way, is often illegal thoigh again laws vary. Not firing someone who you find out after the fact has committed sexual assault, when your organization doesn’t have any relevant policies that could be referred to, and in the absence of a lawsuit drawing the connection between said assault happening at a business event and the creation or maintenance of a hostile workplace environment, is not illegal; and unfortunately laws around gender based issues and hostile work environment that could be the basis for such a lawsuit were quite weak until well past the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. So no, not a legal accusation. It is definitely something one could have a moral or ethical assessment of, however. As you’ve noted, what is moral (and, I would add to be more specific about the basis of the ethical system under discussion, what is just) and what is legal merely overlap in parts. Not sure why you’ve miscategorized the particular issue in question, though.
posted by eviemath at 1:30 PM on August 18, 2023
posted by eviemath at 1:30 PM on August 18, 2023
I think that's a well-reasoned response, @eviemath. Here's what I think is missing here. Simons, and some others, point at Lorne/SNL's toxic culture, to things like the Horatio Sanz case (which I will confess I do not know the ultimate outcome of), and say "look, toxic culture, the buck stops at the top." And I don't really disagree. But you can't just dredge up the one known instance of a minor being sexually assaulted, and say, I have reason to believe that Lorne was through his inaction, enabling the systemic abuse of minors. I'll change my tune if you have evidence of that. But without that evidence, you or the author haven't provided such a damning connection. In fact really no connection at all that I can tell between Sanz and Michaels aside from the fact that Sanz obviously was employed for a time there and was good friends with Jimmy Fallon, whom Michaels loves for some reason. Unless I missed something, nothing specific about Sanz and Michaels. Just adjacency. Sanz didn't go on to be a big star or have any real return to the show. He kind of just went away. Maybe the abuse thing is why, or maybe he just wasn't that funny or well-liked.
We've seen and heard plenty of stories of the systemic racism and sexism, the problem for such critics is that, over time, we've seen the organization, whether it's NBC standards and practices or Lorne himself, do a bit better job (not perfect or even good objectively but moving in the right direction). So instead of acknowledging this advancement and this openness to change that I think is there, instead of you have a bunch of hand-wringing about old stuff without anything new showing that things are presently moving in any wrong direction relative to the landscape at large. COVID thing nonwithstanding, which I will say I also don't have the info about or understanding on, and I would be willing to change my tune on that point.
So yes, the buck stops at the top, and we can point to Lorne and call him responsible for the impact of the organization he leads. Yes, he is not just a comedian, he is an executive producer and director or whatever his title/job description are. That is important, and responsible. I am sorry for reducing him to a TV clown man, even though yes, his organization produces TV comedy and that is his impact largely on the world/society. But he is also responsible for the labor relations and the workplace situation. On that note, Lorne Michaels is actually a path into TV production, which some people, like Tina Fey, have used to become Broadway writer/producers and major TV producers of 30 Rock, Mean Girls, etc. Which I would argue are progressive media. I would also argue that Lorne/SNL change with the times, pretty heavily. So I'm not seeing that there's anything uniquely bad about the NBC/SNL labor situation versus other situations at all the major TV networks. And the article doesn't go into that at all. It was a poorly researched hit piece that relies on old stories and whispers, but didn't have anything of substance on capitalism or the exploitative nature of the studios, managers, agents, big networks, etc.
posted by schlocktrooper at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2023
We've seen and heard plenty of stories of the systemic racism and sexism, the problem for such critics is that, over time, we've seen the organization, whether it's NBC standards and practices or Lorne himself, do a bit better job (not perfect or even good objectively but moving in the right direction). So instead of acknowledging this advancement and this openness to change that I think is there, instead of you have a bunch of hand-wringing about old stuff without anything new showing that things are presently moving in any wrong direction relative to the landscape at large. COVID thing nonwithstanding, which I will say I also don't have the info about or understanding on, and I would be willing to change my tune on that point.
So yes, the buck stops at the top, and we can point to Lorne and call him responsible for the impact of the organization he leads. Yes, he is not just a comedian, he is an executive producer and director or whatever his title/job description are. That is important, and responsible. I am sorry for reducing him to a TV clown man, even though yes, his organization produces TV comedy and that is his impact largely on the world/society. But he is also responsible for the labor relations and the workplace situation. On that note, Lorne Michaels is actually a path into TV production, which some people, like Tina Fey, have used to become Broadway writer/producers and major TV producers of 30 Rock, Mean Girls, etc. Which I would argue are progressive media. I would also argue that Lorne/SNL change with the times, pretty heavily. So I'm not seeing that there's anything uniquely bad about the NBC/SNL labor situation versus other situations at all the major TV networks. And the article doesn't go into that at all. It was a poorly researched hit piece that relies on old stories and whispers, but didn't have anything of substance on capitalism or the exploitative nature of the studios, managers, agents, big networks, etc.
posted by schlocktrooper at 1:32 PM on August 18, 2023
Al Franken is a major part of SNL history. As much as the article wants to make SNL all about Lorne, he's had something like 20 major figures either as his direct assistants, or head writers or others who hung around for extended periods of time and helped define the show and its workplace culture. I think in terms of what I've heard of most comedy people (standups, tv writers, etc.) toxic seems to be endemic. Relative to the general culture, I would bet SNL is pretty tame; it would've imploded years ago if it was as half as bad as what I've heard from friends about working in TV comedy or the standup scene.
posted by chaz at 2:06 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by chaz at 2:06 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have now read to the end. How it started:
For the last five decades, it has served as a chokepoint in the Hollywood talent pipeline…
How it ended
It’s true that there are other ways to make a living in comedy. SNL is not the end-all.
And I … agree with a lot of the facts in between, but it’s like the author is saying “SNL is a very connected place today, therefore it always has been, and Lorne Michaels has always run it, so you always had to choose to work for him at a terrible place, or forget your career.”
Which is a different thing than saying: SNL started and exists in a competitive landscape, Lorne runs it, it’s a terrible place to work, it’s launched a lot of careers, grown in influence because of the many careers it launched, and … remains a terrible place to work.
posted by zippy at 2:23 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
For the last five decades, it has served as a chokepoint in the Hollywood talent pipeline…
How it ended
It’s true that there are other ways to make a living in comedy. SNL is not the end-all.
And I … agree with a lot of the facts in between, but it’s like the author is saying “SNL is a very connected place today, therefore it always has been, and Lorne Michaels has always run it, so you always had to choose to work for him at a terrible place, or forget your career.”
Which is a different thing than saying: SNL started and exists in a competitive landscape, Lorne runs it, it’s a terrible place to work, it’s launched a lot of careers, grown in influence because of the many careers it launched, and … remains a terrible place to work.
posted by zippy at 2:23 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
the controversial nature of humor on Saturday night live was intended from the beginning.
"I would like…..to feed your fingertips...to the wolverines."
First sketch and it's Belushi playing an immigrant and the eminence grise of sorts, O’Donoghue. it was about being offensive that negates most retort due to popular ratings of the show and the preposterous nature of the material being performed.
I mean they had the Muppets for Christ's sake. I believe it was O'Donoghue that said quote I won't write for felt unquote.
The Story Of SNL's Original Bad Boy: Michael O'Donoghue
I'll add a content warning to that.
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
"I would like…..to feed your fingertips...to the wolverines."
First sketch and it's Belushi playing an immigrant and the eminence grise of sorts, O’Donoghue. it was about being offensive that negates most retort due to popular ratings of the show and the preposterous nature of the material being performed.
I mean they had the Muppets for Christ's sake. I believe it was O'Donoghue that said quote I won't write for felt unquote.
The Story Of SNL's Original Bad Boy: Michael O'Donoghue
I'll add a content warning to that.
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on August 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
blamed the phenomenon of celebrity (and Michaels' part in it in particular) for the deaths of John Belushi and Chris Farley.
I'm not sure about Farley but I tend to agree with you about Belushi. Bob Woodward wrote a book about Belushi called wired and I believe Woodward came to the same conclusion about the pressure of celebrity and the addiction of drugs was virtually insurmountable, as if Belushi just threw his life away. Dan aykroyd and quite a few others did not like the book and the outcome that presented Belushi in a light of a clown and a drug addict when he was especially warm, compelling, funny human being. I remember there was a story about Belushi doing a movie in Mexico with Nicholson and Belushi kind of pestered Nicholson for the 50 bucks that Nicholson had promised so Jack sent $50 worth of pennies and Belushi just laughed. to be fair, Woodward did include a few people who tried to intervene with Belushi including Robin Williams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:08 PM on August 18, 2023
I'm not sure about Farley but I tend to agree with you about Belushi. Bob Woodward wrote a book about Belushi called wired and I believe Woodward came to the same conclusion about the pressure of celebrity and the addiction of drugs was virtually insurmountable, as if Belushi just threw his life away. Dan aykroyd and quite a few others did not like the book and the outcome that presented Belushi in a light of a clown and a drug addict when he was especially warm, compelling, funny human being. I remember there was a story about Belushi doing a movie in Mexico with Nicholson and Belushi kind of pestered Nicholson for the 50 bucks that Nicholson had promised so Jack sent $50 worth of pennies and Belushi just laughed. to be fair, Woodward did include a few people who tried to intervene with Belushi including Robin Williams.
posted by clavdivs at 3:08 PM on August 18, 2023
"this puppet stuff is way too creative for me, let's wheel in some hacky racial caricatures from 1873 instead'
like good for the guy's artistic integrity, I guess
posted by StarkRoads at 3:19 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
like good for the guy's artistic integrity, I guess
posted by StarkRoads at 3:19 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
simma dow na
posted by clavdivs at 6:00 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clavdivs at 6:00 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe it was O'Donoghue that said quote I won't write for felt unquote.
And no one replied: 'we all know your writing is completely unfelt, Michael.'?
posted by jamjam at 7:55 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
And no one replied: 'we all know your writing is completely unfelt, Michael.'?
posted by jamjam at 7:55 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Occasionally when you read a memoir by someone in comedy (Quinta Brunson’s book recently, for example), they will mention how they spent part of their middle school and high school years watching and rewatching SNL skits. I’m not in comedy but I grew up loving SNL and did the same thing, quoting skits with my classmates and siblings. Part of me still wants to see it live someday. For that reason, I have some respect for Lorne. That said, I don’t think one works in a job like that without being kind of a shitty person.
Re: Franken, I had been a fan of his and was super disappointed to find out he acted like a creep. I’m glad he resigned. It’s disappointing and concerning to see people in this space downplay his creepy behavior.
posted by kat518 at 8:55 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: Franken, I had been a fan of his and was super disappointed to find out he acted like a creep. I’m glad he resigned. It’s disappointing and concerning to see people in this space downplay his creepy behavior.
posted by kat518 at 8:55 PM on August 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Slut-shaming is so far beyond the norms of what I thought was acceptable discourse on MetaFilter that I’m shocked this comment has been allowed to stand.
QFT. Regardless of whether someone has been in pornography or is a right-winger, no one should be grabbed, groped or kissed against their will, and those who grab, grope and kiss people against their will don’t belong in the US Senate.
posted by kat518 at 9:15 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
QFT. Regardless of whether someone has been in pornography or is a right-winger, no one should be grabbed, groped or kissed against their will, and those who grab, grope and kiss people against their will don’t belong in the US Senate.
posted by kat518 at 9:15 PM on August 18, 2023 [8 favorites]
O' they wouldn't dare I'd say, quite the tyrant there, jamjam. ...except Eddie Murphy, who was not hired by Michael's because Michaels left for five years and he wanted Al Franklin to run the show. it's interesting that Michael's hired Gilda Radner first and I believe Garrett Morris was in on the same audition. Morris was a playwright and his work impressed Michaels as did his acting but when Michael's left Morris was out of a job.it's kind of weird to think that because I remember the Walter Matthau episode and the backstory is that Matthau was extremely impressed by Morris' singing so after one sketch they did a quiet intro and Garrett Morris sang a beautiful aria that brought the house down.
No one wanted to write Land of Gorch and Henson couldn't because of union rules and for the pain, we got the Muppet Show, a icon, IMO.
interesting, 'Saturday Night Live hosts whose episodes were canceled amid strikes: John Candy, Gilda Radner, more'
posted by clavdivs at 9:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
No one wanted to write Land of Gorch and Henson couldn't because of union rules and for the pain, we got the Muppet Show, a icon, IMO.
interesting, 'Saturday Night Live hosts whose episodes were canceled amid strikes: John Candy, Gilda Radner, more'
posted by clavdivs at 9:32 PM on August 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Trying to educate me on the US political spectrum is very silly since apparently some people don't know who Ralph Nader is, a rabid consumer advocate and essentially the "Jill Stein" of the 80s and 90s
umm Ralph Nader is still going strong he has a weekly podcast that never ceases to illuminate me about the incredible corporate injustices that exist in the U.S.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ralph-nader-radio-hour/id874581610
posted by any major dude at 9:52 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
umm Ralph Nader is still going strong he has a weekly podcast that never ceases to illuminate me about the incredible corporate injustices that exist in the U.S.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ralph-nader-radio-hour/id874581610
posted by any major dude at 9:52 AM on August 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s disappointing and concerning to see people in this space downplay his creepy behavior.
It's more like not exaggerating his bad manners by righteously shoehorning one's idea of bad morals into a bad person into a sex crime. The problem with lynch mobs isn't only that they embolden those who think of themselves as the most moral citizens to angrily commit an injustice, thanks to an overly high esteem of themselves, but that the event appeals to prejudice in a way that makes it a vicarious revenge, also called a displaced revenge or misdirected revenge. It has the chilling effect on those who would otherwise stand up to represent, allowing the mob to continue. We're talking about future politicians from the mainstream who bow out because they were once immature and know there's a video out there of them making an apparent fool of themselves, devoid of context. The other concern relates to division within a party itself, some fine with it because they feel more comfortable around perceived purity, molding an institution to become a spiritual expression, never mind that it gets much smaller. This is not about separating the art from the artist, or even the man from the boy, because those require academic skill. This is about separating objective from subjective reality when justice is on the line (which traditionally adopted the grudges of a controlling husband with a public stoning of a sinner). Blend them freely if not, because that's comedy and laughing at the absurd, keeping us humble by not taking ourselves too seriously. We might imagine those talented at it aren't as normal as the rest of us.
posted by Brian B. at 8:43 AM on August 20, 2023
It's more like not exaggerating his bad manners by righteously shoehorning one's idea of bad morals into a bad person into a sex crime. The problem with lynch mobs isn't only that they embolden those who think of themselves as the most moral citizens to angrily commit an injustice, thanks to an overly high esteem of themselves, but that the event appeals to prejudice in a way that makes it a vicarious revenge, also called a displaced revenge or misdirected revenge. It has the chilling effect on those who would otherwise stand up to represent, allowing the mob to continue. We're talking about future politicians from the mainstream who bow out because they were once immature and know there's a video out there of them making an apparent fool of themselves, devoid of context. The other concern relates to division within a party itself, some fine with it because they feel more comfortable around perceived purity, molding an institution to become a spiritual expression, never mind that it gets much smaller. This is not about separating the art from the artist, or even the man from the boy, because those require academic skill. This is about separating objective from subjective reality when justice is on the line (which traditionally adopted the grudges of a controlling husband with a public stoning of a sinner). Blend them freely if not, because that's comedy and laughing at the absurd, keeping us humble by not taking ourselves too seriously. We might imagine those talented at it aren't as normal as the rest of us.
posted by Brian B. at 8:43 AM on August 20, 2023
Your use of "lynch mobs" is repellent. It's disgusting to talk about a) resigning from the Senate or b) an entirely hypothetical hand-wringing worry about would-be "future politicians" declining to run at all(?!!!) as if they were equivalent to extrajudicial murders.
posted by Earthtopus at 9:45 AM on August 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Earthtopus at 9:45 AM on August 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wow, "lynch mob" in this context is truly astonishing. There's literally *decades* of reporting on Lorne Michaels' abusive, controlling, ego-driven, sexist, racist and homophobic decision-making as head of Saturday Night Live. I mean, it's all right there in the linked article:
Michaels is known to punish cast members who displease him—for instance, by taking roles in movies he’s not producing—by nixing their sketches or assigning unfavorable time slots.
It's always tough to balance these things as one looks at the scales and tries to put a specific number to the weights of how much good Lorne has done for American comedy vs how much horrible shit he's dumped on the head of American comedy, but I've looked at those scales for a long time, including watching the original SNL every weekend in its early seasons as they aired, and reading everything I could about his tenure as SNL Head Commissar, and I'm really comfortable with the first sentence I posted in this thread.
We can only imagine how much more open and funny the comedy world would be today if a shithead like Lorne Michaels hadn't been in charge of SNL for almost all of its run.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 AM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Michaels is known to punish cast members who displease him—for instance, by taking roles in movies he’s not producing—by nixing their sketches or assigning unfavorable time slots.
It's always tough to balance these things as one looks at the scales and tries to put a specific number to the weights of how much good Lorne has done for American comedy vs how much horrible shit he's dumped on the head of American comedy, but I've looked at those scales for a long time, including watching the original SNL every weekend in its early seasons as they aired, and reading everything I could about his tenure as SNL Head Commissar, and I'm really comfortable with the first sentence I posted in this thread.
We can only imagine how much more open and funny the comedy world would be today if a shithead like Lorne Michaels hadn't been in charge of SNL for almost all of its run.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 AM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
We're talking about future politicians from the mainstream who bow out because they were once immature and know there's a video out there of them making an apparent fool of themselves, devoid of context.
And nothing of value was lost
posted by CrystalDave at 9:54 AM on August 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
And nothing of value was lost
posted by CrystalDave at 9:54 AM on August 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
And nothing of value was lost
It depends. We now have timid politicians who are always preening, no risk of any kind, playing it safe, afraid of expression that might be seen as effective. The party that appeals to regular people will prevail.
posted by Brian B. at 10:02 AM on August 20, 2023
It depends. We now have timid politicians who are always preening, no risk of any kind, playing it safe, afraid of expression that might be seen as effective. The party that appeals to regular people will prevail.
posted by Brian B. at 10:02 AM on August 20, 2023
That's not what you said, though. You said "future politicians from the mainstream bow[ing] out because they were once immature and know there's a video out there of them making an apparent fool of themselves, devoid of context", in reference to an event where at best someone had a bad understanding of consent and sexual assault.
If you're going to draw the connection that the only politicians who aren't timid, appeal to regular people, etc. are sex pests; then you have to actually make that case rather than draw points A & C and gesture suggestively between the two.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:22 AM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
If you're going to draw the connection that the only politicians who aren't timid, appeal to regular people, etc. are sex pests; then you have to actually make that case rather than draw points A & C and gesture suggestively between the two.
posted by CrystalDave at 10:22 AM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's not what you said, though.
It's an example, feel free to imagine any such scenario where it applies to public service.
posted by Brian B. at 10:36 AM on August 20, 2023
It's an example, feel free to imagine any such scenario where it applies to public service.
posted by Brian B. at 10:36 AM on August 20, 2023
We now have timid politicians who are always preening, no risk of any kind, playing it safe, afraid of expression that might be seen as effective.
Do we?
posted by Selena777 at 10:51 AM on August 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Do we?
posted by Selena777 at 10:51 AM on August 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
oh my yes, politicans should be lampooned 24/7. no exceptions.
I don't know if anybody has ever seen Gerald Ford roll a joint.....
posted by clavdivs at 12:58 PM on August 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know if anybody has ever seen Gerald Ford roll a joint.....
posted by clavdivs at 12:58 PM on August 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Folks, it’s very important to practice more awareness when using loaded and historically specific terminology in order to make a comparison or to prove a point. Let’s practice more sensitivity and get creative in these moments with our language.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:11 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:11 PM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, the article lists two stars which Lorne did not hire. An oversight, perhaps. The fact that Lornes Missing five years is not mentioned, though when he returned, it was the same song, a reboot. What was the SNL culture then.
The wiki history on that era is interesting
posted by clavdivs at 3:02 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
The wiki history on that era is interesting
posted by clavdivs at 3:02 PM on August 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
We now have timid politicians who are always preening, no risk of any kind, playing it safe, afraid of expression that might be seen as effective.
I would invite you to look at the two leading Republican candidates for president and show how they are preening, playing it safe or afraid to express themselves.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:47 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would invite you to look at the two leading Republican candidates for president and show how they are preening, playing it safe or afraid to express themselves.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 9:47 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would invite you to look at the two leading Republican candidates for president and show how they are preening, playing it safe or afraid to express themselves.
This is my point, where the rest are afraid of them based on taking heat from a morally elitist notion of purity, which in the right wing is traditionalism, a form of extremism that denies even scientific knowledge. Their hit squads simply say that "They don't think like us so dump'em..." and it works, because of faith in true belief. DeSantis timidly called the other timid ones "listless vessels" and note the irony when everyone in media wonders why he flatters Trump 90% of the time. However, Trump-bashing Christie is the one who doesn't care, secure in his own political machine, and a decent model for outspokenness generally. On the left, we have our own moral elites who are often liabilities under correctness hating. Consider for a moment that changing government and changing one's party are different goals, where success is measured in whether one is on offense or defense in the national setting.
posted by Brian B. at 10:17 AM on August 21, 2023
This is my point, where the rest are afraid of them based on taking heat from a morally elitist notion of purity, which in the right wing is traditionalism, a form of extremism that denies even scientific knowledge. Their hit squads simply say that "They don't think like us so dump'em..." and it works, because of faith in true belief. DeSantis timidly called the other timid ones "listless vessels" and note the irony when everyone in media wonders why he flatters Trump 90% of the time. However, Trump-bashing Christie is the one who doesn't care, secure in his own political machine, and a decent model for outspokenness generally. On the left, we have our own moral elites who are often liabilities under correctness hating. Consider for a moment that changing government and changing one's party are different goals, where success is measured in whether one is on offense or defense in the national setting.
posted by Brian B. at 10:17 AM on August 21, 2023
Well, congratulations to the noob for derailing this thread into yet another discussion of how there's no real difference between the two major American political parties.
posted by Etrigan at 10:32 AM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 10:32 AM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, congratulations to the noob for derailing this thread into yet another discussion of how there's no real difference between the two major American political parties.
Are you referring to the new poster who knew the most here about the television industry and Lorne Michaels, but who perhaps didn't have the majority opinion about it?
posted by Brian B. at 10:47 AM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Are you referring to the new poster who knew the most here about the television industry and Lorne Michaels, but who perhaps didn't have the majority opinion about it?
posted by Brian B. at 10:47 AM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m referring to the person who said “Al Franken” enough times that someone finally took the bait, yes.
posted by Etrigan at 10:48 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 10:48 AM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
The bait and fish might look the same until they land the marlin. Franken is the guy they plotted over because he had the most contacts among Hollywood big donors to the Democratic party. He didn't switch parties. The diminished still imagine they were done a favor.
posted by Brian B. at 11:09 AM on August 21, 2023
posted by Brian B. at 11:09 AM on August 21, 2023
On the left, we
posted by Brian B.
Given that “we” there… what political position are you referring to being on the left of, precisely? Both historically and in terms of the majority of current US citizens’ opinions on specific issues when actually polled on those specific issues (support for abortion being a decision between a uterus-haver and their doctor, taxing rich people and corporations, regulating corporate activity, etc.), Lorne Michaels for example appears to be solidly centrist. Leftism generally refers not to everything on the Liberal side of the political center, but more specifically limited to folks from around and to the left of the DSA. For illustrative comparison: unlike the US, most parliamentary democracies have an actual left political party. In Canada, this is the NDP, while the Liberals are, well, liberal (slightly left of center but not Left); the PCs are conservative but unfortunately shifting farther right; and the PPC is very right wing.
posted by eviemath at 12:49 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B.
Given that “we” there… what political position are you referring to being on the left of, precisely? Both historically and in terms of the majority of current US citizens’ opinions on specific issues when actually polled on those specific issues (support for abortion being a decision between a uterus-haver and their doctor, taxing rich people and corporations, regulating corporate activity, etc.), Lorne Michaels for example appears to be solidly centrist. Leftism generally refers not to everything on the Liberal side of the political center, but more specifically limited to folks from around and to the left of the DSA. For illustrative comparison: unlike the US, most parliamentary democracies have an actual left political party. In Canada, this is the NDP, while the Liberals are, well, liberal (slightly left of center but not Left); the PCs are conservative but unfortunately shifting farther right; and the PPC is very right wing.
posted by eviemath at 12:49 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's been a significant barrier to communication for me that Metafilter, in general, insists on some very specific political terminology and definitions which I literally do not see among laypersons anywhere else on the Internet. It's entirely possible that I would have learned this specific vocabulary in a university political science department. Maybe I could pay for a poli sci degree if I has a nickel for every conversation I've seen on this site where people are completely talking past each other because they're using the same words with different definitions.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:50 PM on August 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 4:50 PM on August 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
“Well, congratulations to the noob…”
Nice.
posted by sundrop at 5:45 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nice.
posted by sundrop at 5:45 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Definitely not OK to call other users a “noob”. Also not OK to argue with each other in thread. Please take a break from this thread if you’re unable to practice compassion and patience towards others.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:08 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:08 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
This thread is exhibit A for "why is Metafilter not attracting new members?"
Gatekeep much?
posted by spitbull at 1:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Gatekeep much?
posted by spitbull at 1:45 AM on August 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
I apologize. It was out of line.
posted by Etrigan at 4:18 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 4:18 AM on August 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t think wanting to at least keep to within-my-lifetime+within-the-US distinctions of right wing < conservative < liberal < progressive or left wing and not wanting to have the entire end of political viewpoints that includes mine completely erased is gatekeeping.
Additionally, those of us living outside the US have always been advocating for US Mefites to not be quite so US-centric on what has been an international community for at least the entire time I’ve been on this site; and the US political spectrum leans farther right than most. Asking US Mefites to have some basic awareness of this is also not gatekeeping.
posted by eviemath at 4:46 AM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Additionally, those of us living outside the US have always been advocating for US Mefites to not be quite so US-centric on what has been an international community for at least the entire time I’ve been on this site; and the US political spectrum leans farther right than most. Asking US Mefites to have some basic awareness of this is also not gatekeeping.
posted by eviemath at 4:46 AM on August 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
In particular, claims that I should support Lorne Michaels because he is doing cultural work that aligns with my values, in a system that is just structured in a way that requires him to being an asshole boss and there’s nothing he can do about that make incorrect assumptions about my values based on that political erasure. And this is a result of an old and well-known propaganda tactic, employed by many conservative (and now right wing) strategists, of conflating all political viewpoints to the left of themselves as radical left. That’s as factually inaccurate as claiming there are no differences between Biden and McCain, or between McCain and Trump. The posters propagating this factually inaccurate conflation in this thread may not be intentionally doing so as a propaganda tactic, but merely employee an unconsciously learned tactic reflexively with little apparent thought for or awareness of others’ viewpoints, in which case pushing back on that misinformation may be gatekeeping in a sense; but the costs of accepting such misrepresentations on par with factually accurate descriptions outweigh any potential gatekeeping concerns in this matter. Our new member could have avoided much of this by framing their viewpoint and opinion as their opinion rather than trying to frame it as a broader or more consensus principle.
posted by eviemath at 5:16 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 5:16 AM on August 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's been a significant barrier to communication for me that Metafilter, in general, insists on some very specific political terminology and definitions which I literally do not see among laypersons anywhere else on the Internet. It's entirely possible that I would have learned this specific vocabulary in a university political science department. Maybe I could pay for a poli sci degree if I has a nickel for every conversation I've seen on this site where people are completely talking past each other because they're using the same words with different definitions.
Yes, but it will not necessarily help to have a political science degree, the science part being more interested in systems and analysis, not spreading a rhetoric. What might be helpful is to consider the goals and methods, often hidden behind movement jargon that looks like economics or uncontested sociology. Some want aristocratic cultural traditions to prevail, others want an imagined utopia enforced by someone somehow, and others prefer a stable political process that avoids centralized power. It comes down to psychological notions of order. Watch for concrete definitions of left and right, which are historical and relational abstractions.
posted by Brian B. at 9:00 AM on August 22, 2023
Yes, but it will not necessarily help to have a political science degree, the science part being more interested in systems and analysis, not spreading a rhetoric. What might be helpful is to consider the goals and methods, often hidden behind movement jargon that looks like economics or uncontested sociology. Some want aristocratic cultural traditions to prevail, others want an imagined utopia enforced by someone somehow, and others prefer a stable political process that avoids centralized power. It comes down to psychological notions of order. Watch for concrete definitions of left and right, which are historical and relational abstractions.
posted by Brian B. at 9:00 AM on August 22, 2023
For what it's worth, I'm using the common terminology for positions along the political spectrum that I learned by age 10, before anyone in my immediate family had a university degree of any sort.
posted by eviemath at 10:01 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 10:01 AM on August 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
And nothing of value was lost.
Totally agree. Suppose I continued to support him and my kid saw that picture of him and asked me what that was about. I can’t think of anything I could say in response that wouldn’t sound gross. He was a disappointment.
posted by kat518 at 10:45 PM on August 22, 2023
Totally agree. Suppose I continued to support him and my kid saw that picture of him and asked me what that was about. I can’t think of anything I could say in response that wouldn’t sound gross. He was a disappointment.
posted by kat518 at 10:45 PM on August 22, 2023
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posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:33 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]