Arguably the funniest McCarthyist purge in US political history
October 3, 2023 3:28 PM Subscribe

Representative Patrick McHenry (R-NC) has become acting Speaker of the House after Kevin McCarthy, rocked by a series of failed budget votes (and a last-minute agreement with Democrats to avoid a government shutdown), was ousted by Matt Gaetz and other far-right members of the House Freedom Caucus in an unprecedented vote. McCarthy, while likely to run for the speakership again, is no shoo-in given the 15 ballots it took him to secure the gavel just nine months ago (previously).
posted by Rhaomi (603 comments total) 57 users marked this as a favorite

*slow clap for the title*
posted by corb at 3:29 PM on October 3, 2023 [88 favorites]

Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:36 PM on October 3, 2023 [69 favorites]

So is the Dem offer to support any candidate willing to give government funding through the end of next year coupled with Ukraine support? Cause that's where I'd be taking this discussion.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:40 PM on October 3, 2023 [26 favorites]

It's been a while since I've brought him out, but take the stage, Sweet Clyde!
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:40 PM on October 3, 2023 [14 favorites]

Anyone wanting to shut down the government, in this instance, in these times does care about anyone interests but there own.

they are ghouls.
posted by clavdivs at 3:41 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

Because Gaetz IS basically a late-season villain from Gotham?

I've often thought he would fit in with the Dick Tracy villain pantheon without any makeup assistance.

The amount of "Gaetz Must Go" voices I've been seeing pop up suddenly are interesting. I don't know if that gains any traction or if there's even a "there" there, but it's something I haven't heard before.

It isn't even 100 years ago when "how many Micks are going to run this place" would have been a racist statement.

I'm honestly hoping for some weird maneuvering to bring Jeffries into Speakership even if he's a minority leader. At least then maybe we'd see things get done.
posted by hippybear at 3:42 PM on October 3, 2023 [8 favorites]

Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?

Heh... I always thought he looked like a bad guy character from Dick Tracy.
posted by 2N2222 at 3:43 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?

For some reason, I have always found it extremely difficult to smile evenly for photographs, so that I almost always appear to be smirking, for better or for worse. I was just wondering whether he has that same problem, though you'd really think a pro politician would have had it trained out of him (it's often for worse!).
posted by praemunire at 3:46 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

Pat McHenry used to be my rep before they redrew the lines (gifting us with Madison Cawthorn). He is a weasel of the highest order. As embarrassing as Cawthorn was, I preferred him because everyone with half a brain could see what a disgrace he was, while McHenry gets a pass as a "respectable" Republican (there is no such thing).
posted by rikschell at 3:47 PM on October 3, 2023 [19 favorites]

Real country.
posted by dumbland at 3:49 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

I do find it slightly ironic that eight hard nosed Republicans who are so pissed at McCarthy for doing anything with Democrats have now voted to oust McCarthy--with 96% of their votes coming from Democrats.
posted by mark k at 3:51 PM on October 3, 2023 [49 favorites]

> Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?

Heh... I always thought he looked like a bad guy character from Dick Tracy.

No, he looks like Butt-Head.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:55 PM on October 3, 2023 [90 favorites]

Oh it is beyond slightly ironic and well into delicious that the nominally moderate Republicans who were on board with the freedom caucus' willingness to ally with Nazis are getting their asses bit by the freedom caucus' willingness to ally with house Democrats.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 3:57 PM on October 3, 2023 [12 favorites]

I just learned that Gaetz skated on the charges of paying for sex with a minor. Missed that news item earlier this year.
posted by Reverend John at 3:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [22 favorites]

Matt Gaetz makes a lot more sense if you know that he literally grew up in Truman Burbank’s house from The Truman Show.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 4:01 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

The fury with which Patrick McHenry brought down the gavel to send the House into recess was pure delight.
posted by nickmark at 4:02 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

one would hope that the democrats continue their strategy of lock-step voting for their caucus leader while politely encouraging the republicans to unshit their bed on their own this time
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 4:08 PM on October 3, 2023 [28 favorites]

Matt Gaetz has always struck me as the kind of guy who, having never met or heard of him before, you might end up doing a line of blow with at a party against your better judgment -- but hey, free blow. He would then glom onto you thinking that you're somehow "on his side" and start revealing more and more of who is. It would go from "ew, this guy is gross" to "how many bodies does he have buried in his backyard" over the course of an hour or two. He would keep offering you blow but you'd refuse, regretting the moment you did that line as much as any other catastrophic and poorly-thought-out life decision that you'll hate yourself for at 3am. You would try to get away but he'd keep following you, inserting himself loudly and aggressively into every conversation, driving everyone away. And there would be lots and lots of spittle and probably some open mouth coughing directly in your face. You'd start asking around about who invited him and should he really be here and absolutely no one would have any idea how he got there and no one would quite know how to get rid of him without physically throwing him out the door. Which is what should happen but no one wants to be that person a party... and that's how you get a Matt Gaetz
posted by treepour at 4:10 PM on October 3, 2023 [112 favorites]

Considering that Gaetz appears to have made over 200 new enemies from his own GOP caucus, and it takes 2/3 of the House to expel a member for improprieties, and that the House Ethics Committee was reopening its investigation into the sex charges against him, it would not totally surprise me if Gaetz himself gets kicked to the curb soon enough.
posted by hangashore at 4:12 PM on October 3, 2023 [37 favorites]

I always thought he looked like a bad guy character from Dick Tracy.

Nah, more like "grown-up Eddie Munster gone bad."
posted by wenestvedt at 4:12 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

They have lost the Mandate of Kevin
posted by riotnrrd at 4:13 PM on October 3, 2023 [42 favorites]

Real country.
posted by dumbland

Totally eponysterical.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:13 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

McCarthy NOT running for Speaker again, in a shock to his allies.
posted by Rhaomi at 4:16 PM on October 3, 2023 [15 favorites]

and that's how you get a Matt Gaetz

that and a boatload of dark money from Putin
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:16 PM on October 3, 2023 [13 favorites]

And here I thought Republicans were against terminations at the eight-month mark
posted by hangashore at 4:17 PM on October 3, 2023 [138 favorites]

one would hope that the democrats continue their strategy of lock-step voting for their caucus leader while politely encouraging the republicans to unshit their bed on their own this time

I believe Rep. Katie Porter made a name for herself by demonstrably reading during the vote - because the book she chose was THE SUBTLE ART OF NOT GIVING A FUCK.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:19 PM on October 3, 2023 [51 favorites]

Apparently the GOP had to relearn the lesson that turning the base up too high blows out your Speaker.
posted by Quasirandom at 4:20 PM on October 3, 2023 [293 favorites]

Wait. Kevin McCarthy was ousted for allying with Democrats to keep the government running for 45 days. The Democrats then helped to vote to remove him.

Whoever the new person is, they'll presumably have the self-titled Freedom Caucus's blessing. In 45 days, won't that make it harder to get the shutdown put off again?
posted by JHarris at 4:22 PM on October 3, 2023 [18 favorites]

I said as much during the original speakership drama: we've known for a while that the Republican party is going to split in two. But what I didn't realize is that would materialize in the house floor first.

I had sort of imagined the low taxes side and the white supremacist side going at it in the general election and cancelling one another out, but I guess that won't happen until the breakup is official. But now I'm wondering -- if we had some 30-30-30 split, do we just not have a House until the next election?
posted by pwnguin at 4:23 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

it takes 2/3 of the House to expel a member for improprieties, and that the House Ethics Committee was reopening its investigation into the sex charges against him, it would not totally surprise me if Gaetz himself gets kicked to the curb soon enough.

I would be shocked if the Republicans would actually jettison him while they had such a slender majority. And I don't mean that in an especially cynical way, expulsions are very rare. Censure is a fairly extreme outcome for an ethics panel review.

More plausible that (as I've seen speculated by other observers) the investigation and the leaks themselves are the punishment, plus a little "see we care about ethics too" for the press.
posted by mark k at 4:23 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

I'm a little confounded at what are the possible routes to a new Speaker from here, and the press seems similarly baffled. Seems everyone's certain it won't be a Dem, which seems a reasonable assumption, but no one has any clue how to put the House R puzzle pieces together in a way that gives a new person the gavel.
posted by kensington314 at 4:28 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Like do they just give it to Scalise, burn him in six months, and the move on to the next victim. It is wild to watch people govern who do not, themselves, believe in the value of the government!!
posted by kensington314 at 4:29 PM on October 3, 2023 [21 favorites]

It is wild to watch people govern who do not, themselves, believe in the value of the government!!

Yeah, my take is that they will lazily flail, for as long as possible because not governing is exactly their Thing. What incentive do they have to keep the country from shutting down? Their pay & health insurance will continue, and their paymasters are immune to economic concerns: some kabuki "politics" keeps the 27% stirred up, and cuts benefits to the people they hate.
posted by wenestvedt at 4:35 PM on October 3, 2023 [8 favorites]

It's interesting to me that the Dems chose to sit this one out rather than play a bit of realpolitik and vote present to keep MrCarthy in the speakership. that way in 45 days they would have firmly brought the gop to a boil over funding the government, but MrCarthy could once again turn to them to keep things running, rinse and repeat.

McCarthy reneged on the budget deal made as part of the debt ceiling negotiations. The second he got out of the votes on the CR he went on TV and basically shit all over the Democratic caucus, calling the near shutdown their fault, even though they bailed him out and half his caucus didn't vote for it.

Who the fuck wants to try and make a deal with someone like that? He's an unreliable negotiator specifically because he can't bring his caucus to bear and at any time he could pull the rug and decide that his political ambitions aren't the same as the Democratic members running cover for him. Then how do they look to the voters back home?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:36 PM on October 3, 2023 [116 favorites]

1 McCarthy = 4.9 Trusses = 25.4 Scaramuccis

Or, rounding for convenience, 1:5:25. Which proves something. Though I don't know what.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:37 PM on October 3, 2023 [24 favorites]

Please use his full title, alleged sex trafficker and pedophile Matt Gaetz.
posted by adept256 at 4:38 PM on October 3, 2023 [77 favorites]

Who the fuck wants to try and make a deal with someone like that? He's an unreliable negotiator specifically because he can't bring his caucus to bear and at any time he could pull the rug and decide that his political ambitions aren't the same as the Democratic members running cover for him. Then how do they look to the voters back home?

Exactly. I’m sure there are plenty of voters who might say “wait a minute. You supported someone whose party hates women and everyone else who isn’t a rich white male? Wtf??”
posted by Melismata at 4:49 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

“I think if we had a clean [funding resolution] without Ukraine on it, we could probably be able to move that through. I think if the Senate puts Ukraine on there and focuses on Ukraine over America, I think — I think that could cause real problems.” -- Fuck this guy in particular
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:57 PM on October 3, 2023 [12 favorites]

“I think if we had a clean [funding resolution] without Ukraine on it, we could probably be able to move that through. I think if the Senate puts Ukraine on there and focuses on Ukraine over America, I think — I think that could cause real problems.” -- Fuck this guy in particular

which McDipshit was this?
posted by kensington314 at 4:59 PM on October 3, 2023

Since it a sh** storm. I'd be amused if they make MTG the Speaker. Third in line of the presidency.
posted by baegucb at 5:00 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

which McDipshit was this?

That'd be Kevin McCarthy while talking to CNN’s Manu Raju on Sept 29.
posted by bz at 5:01 PM on October 3, 2023 [7 favorites]

Now the crazy 8 hold the speakership hostage to their whims and Ukraine is screwed and the government more likely to be shut down over the holidays.

The Republican majority seemed to be in thrall to these particular extremists, regardless, who had little interest in a functional government yesterday and even less today and tomorrow. McCarthy gambled against Russian-backed right-wing extremism and lost. It is definitely another warning to everyone about how fragile our democracy is, that the system can be sabotaged by a handful of malicious people.

As usual, Dems will be held to blame for what Republicans do, and then they are left to clean up the mess (i.e., 2008 bank bailouts, US defaulting on debt, borrowing gets more expensive, less money for everything else). In his exit speech, McCarthy even blamed inflation on Biden, and not the guy who tried a violent attack on the US Capitol and who crippled the economy with a deliberately apathetic response to a pandemic. Republicans don't even have the courage or honesty to pin the blame on other Republicans who openly stab them in the back.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:03 PM on October 3, 2023 [27 favorites]

It is definitely another warning to everyone about how fragile our democracy is, that the system can be sabotaged by a handful of malicious people.

Well, it's definitely a warning about how stupid this form of governing under the Hastert Rule is. That isn't how this kind of government is supposed to function, only bringing votes that can pass from within your own party. It should be working where all manner of things are brought to a vote and are passed with all manner of coalitions across party lines, based on what is best for the constituents most affected by the measures up for a vote.

Our democracy is only fragile because stupid things like the Hastert Rule and the Senate filibuster stand in the way of having an actual functioning representative republic taking place. If they were to put an end to both of those things, we'd discover things actually being passed regularly, often for the good of the general population.
posted by hippybear at 5:08 PM on October 3, 2023 [46 favorites]

I thought this bit of info about election of the Speaker of the House was quite interesting and enlightening:

Under the modern practice, the Speaker is elected by a majority of Members-elect voting by surname, a quorum being present. The Clerk appoints tellers for this election.

However, the House, and not the Clerk, decides by what method it shall elect. . . . In two instances the House agreed to choose and subsequently did choose a Speaker by a plurality of votes but confirmed the choice by majority vote.

In 1849 the House had been in session 19 days without being able to elect a Speaker, no candidate having received a majority of the votes cast. The voting was viva voce, each Member responding to the call of the roll by naming the candidate for whom he voted. Finally, after the fifty-ninth ballot, the House adopted a resolution declaring that a Speaker could be elected by a plurality. In 1856 the House again struggled over the election of a Speaker. Ballots numbering 129 had been taken without any candidate receiving a majority of the votes cast. The House then adopted a resolution permitting the election to be decided by a plurality. On both of these occasions, the House ratified the plurality election by a majority vote.

posted by flug at 5:10 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

Whoever the new person is, they'll presumably have the self-titled Freedom Caucus's blessing. In 45 days, won't that make it harder to get the shutdown put off again?

See, that's the thing. There are three factions, and none of them have a working majority. The Dems are half-a-dozen or so short and will remain so, the Repubs are about the same amount short if Team Beavis fails to give its assent, and Team Beavis seems to understand an old line from Dune: He who can destroy a thing, can control a thing.

So there are only a few possibilities even if they can find someone who would WANT the job under these circumstances. Even someone like Chip Roy, a card-carrying Kook firebrand, is on the outs with the Hateful Eight because he helped negotiate the last potential CR deal (that Team Beavis promptly scuttled, getting a clean-ish CR instead of half-a-loaf as their reward).

There will be no Coalition of the Middle. There will be no R defectors to Jeffries, at least without their being assigned Army battalions as their personal/family's security team. So either someone finds leverage with which to persuade Team Beavis to stifle it, or we go full Calvinball.
posted by delfin at 5:19 PM on October 3, 2023 [21 favorites]

"Patrick McHenry" is 100% the kind of name Kevin McCarthy would come up with if he wanted to put on a big cartoonish fake mustache and try to sneak back into a place he'd been thrown out of.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 5:22 PM on October 3, 2023 [51 favorites]

Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?

His resemblance to Beavis' friend Butthead is uncanny. I'm pretty sure he does it on purpose.
posted by wierdo at 5:28 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

> McCarthy NOT running for Speaker again, in a shock to his allies.

Honestly this is the only thing McCarthy has ever done that indicates the ability to think rationally. But really who would ever want to be the speaker of a GOP majority house. EVERY republican speaker since the Obama era has resigned! You could not pay me 10 million dollars to do it for one single congress. It's the worst fucking job in the world, trying to bring to order a party of morons who think the moon landing was faked. Every single one of them either venal, dead-stupid, or both, if they're not raving lunatics. Imagine waking up every day and having to tell people no, we're not going to pass a bill to restore segregation or punish homelessness with the death penalty. A nightmare job.
posted by dis_integration at 5:31 PM on October 3, 2023 [56 favorites]

Deals require some basis for trust and Democrats didn’t trust McCarthy. The fact that he doesn’t have the support or will to go through another dozen votes to end up as speaker again is surprising. I think the new game will be to have the interim speaker be the speaker for a while.
posted by interogative mood at 5:33 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

McCarthy is headed out the door to the money.
posted by bluesky43 at 5:33 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

You could not pay me 10 million dollars to do it for one single congress.

Why not? You'd have 10 million dollars, and you could do whatever you wanted, because it wouldn't matter anyway. It's only horrible if you give a shit.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:35 PM on October 3, 2023 [26 favorites]

We're a few days off from this onion article being exactly eight years old, but it remains evergreen.
posted by ockmockbock at 5:40 PM on October 3, 2023 [15 favorites]

Hastert rule - convicted felon and sex offender Dennis Hastert

hmmmm
posted by Barbara Spitzer at 5:43 PM on October 3, 2023 [18 favorites]

Why do I have the sinking feeling that the bottom feeders are just going to drag-out the speakership election pretty much into infinity, not allow anything else to be done in the interim, and just let that 45-day deadline come and go and allow a shutdown to happen without so much as having to vote on a budget.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:44 PM on October 3, 2023 [11 favorites]

"It's good to see Matt Gaetz finally fuck someone older than 18"
posted by lalochezia at 5:48 PM on October 3, 2023 [43 favorites]

“Like do they just give it to [*], burn him in six months, and then move on to the next victim?”

Yes. That's what will happen.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:48 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

How about the Pelosi rule - to be speaker you have to actually do the fucking job and keep the government running.
posted by adept256 at 5:49 PM on October 3, 2023 [19 favorites]

Republican party is going to split in two.

Three?
100+ Bloodthirsty conservatives, the majority by a good bit, but quiet crazy.

70 straight death cult authoritarians, who voted against the CR and the USA, but not against the McCarthy budget, who are angry at

21 chaos MAGAs who voted against the McCarthy budget, and a few of whom are against McCarthy. Probably should be removed via the rumored "self-executing" 14th amendment. Gaetz, Boebert, Gosar, who else?

MTG moves between groups 3 and 2.
posted by eustatic at 5:54 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

I have no idea what the House is going to do, and I think my ignorance is shared by pretty much everyone in the House and the nation.

The Republicans are caught between two equally impossible choices. Either make a deal with the Gaetz Gang and surrender all hope of being a real political party, or admit they already aren't a real political party and get the government going as a coalition with the Democrats. Either is political suicide.

I'm not sure we'll get a new speaker before the end of the year.

I suppose the mainstream Republicans will start actually threatening disavowal and defunding to the Gaetz Gang, in back rooms and well away from the press of course, in hopes of getting them to crumble. No idea if that'll work. They might be such genuine true believers that they are perfectly happy to go out with a bang as long as it ratfucks the people they see as RINOs.

I do wonder if, assuming this lasts 45+ days, it will finally force Biden to end the whole stupid thing of letting the government shut down and just order the Treasury to strike a trillion dollar coin and move on. It's Constitutionally dubious, but this endless game of chicken with the Republicans over a government shutdown has to end sometime, and if there isn't even a Speaker when the funding officially runs out then it may push Biden to do what Obama should have.

I also think there really is a true Greek tragedy in the rise and fall of McCarthy. He rose to his height by invoking dark powers and as soon as he was at the peak of his power, theoretically having the thing he spent his entire career chasing, those power betrayed him and left the Speakership ashes in his mouth and now, in a final insult, those who brought him to the pinnacle have cast him into the pit.
posted by sotonohito at 6:09 PM on October 3, 2023 [23 favorites]

I will also add that I think it's quite possible the Gaetz Gang see this as an opportunity to achieve their goal of killing the government. Can't have a budget without a Speaker so if they don't allow a Speaker to exist then to their way of thinking the Federal government will have no choice but to collapse and cease existing.

All that Grover Norquist drown it in the bathtub crap is gospel to many Republicans. For them this is the desired endgame.
posted by sotonohito at 6:13 PM on October 3, 2023 [19 favorites]

The trillion dollar coin is a solution for the debt ceiling problem, which would be that the Treasury doesn't have enough money to pay the bills that Congress has already agreed to pay.

It won't do anything to solve the problem of Congress not agreeing to pay anything at all, which is what this particular crisis is: no budget means no money can be spent. We have the money thanks to the last debt ceiling moment, but after these next 45 days, nobody will be authorized to write any checks.
posted by hippybear at 6:14 PM on October 3, 2023 [19 favorites]

My request to the Unites States of America -- I'd like to enjoy when something terrible goes away w/out stressing whether whatever replaces it will be even worse.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:21 PM on October 3, 2023 [26 favorites]

They have lost the Mandate of Kevin

They're knock knock knockin' on Kevin's door
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:22 PM on October 3, 2023 [27 favorites]

These are all excellent Gaetz doppelgangers, I still go with weasely Trevor from The Good Place.
posted by riverlife at 6:23 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

*Can't have a budget without a Speaker so if they don't allow a Speaker to exist then to their way of thinking the Federal government will have no choice but to collapse and cease existing.*

Which has the same end-run of a bipartisan agreement to end it. Peel off a few "moderates" and have a coalition caretaker government to the next election.
posted by bonehead at 6:24 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

My request to the Unites States of America -- I'd like to enjoy when something terrible goes away w/out stressing whether whatever replaces it will be even worse.

sir this is a wendys
posted by lalochezia at 6:24 PM on October 3, 2023 [66 favorites]

I had sort of imagined the low taxes side and the white supremacist side going at it in the general election and cancelling one another out

Yes you would think all those people who are genuinely fiscally conservative but socially liberal would come into play here and ahahahahaha I’m sorry I can’t keep this up.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:29 PM on October 3, 2023 [57 favorites]

heh
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:39 PM on October 3, 2023

Congressman Troy E. Nehls (R, TX) on twitter

Kevin McCarthy will NOT be running again as Speaker.
I nominate Donald J. Trump for Speaker of the House.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 6:52 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

Can you be speaker from prison?
posted by adept256 at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

I nominate Donald J. Trump for Speaker of the House.

Oh. THAT'S how it gets worse.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [43 favorites]

My request to the Unites States of America -- I'd like to enjoy when something terrible goes away w/out stressing whether whatever replaces it will be even worse.

sir this is a wendys

...yes, but it's not in the United States of America, right? I was worried there for a second.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

I nominate Donald J. Trump for Speaker of the House.

I can't remember... Did Trump get any votes back in January?
posted by mr_roboto at 6:58 PM on October 3, 2023

This was being discussed on The Bulwark podcast earlier this afternoon and the congressman they had as part of the discussion said that Trump couldn't cope as Speaker because you have to keep a schedule and actually do things on a regular basis because the House is actually a functioning [heh] machine that requires it.
posted by hippybear at 6:59 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

Trump couldn't cope as Speaker because you have to keep a schedule and actually do things on a regular basis because the House is actually a functioning [heh] machine that requires it.

That's what they said about the White House.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:03 PM on October 3, 2023 [22 favorites]

“I nominate Donald J. Trump for Speaker of the House.”

Wow, that's real. Does he, like, know anything about Trump? I am giggling at the idea of Trump actually doing the things that the Speaker has to do, every day.

Although, I wonder if Trump might think this would be his get out of jail card.

That's what they said about the White House.

That's true, but the House doesn't have the vast institutional support staff for the Speaker the way the Executive does the President.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 7:06 PM on October 3, 2023 [7 favorites]

So far, Matt Gaetz has been compared to:

A late-season Gotham villain.
A villain from Dick Tracy
Butt-Head
Trevor from The Good Place

Frankly, I’m disappointed that nobody mentioned Quagmire from The Family Guy because that is who I saw the moment I first laid eyes on him.
posted by Big Al 8000 at 7:13 PM on October 3, 2023 [18 favorites]

That's true, but the House doesn't have the vast institutional support staff for the Speaker the way the Executive does the President.

It wasn't quite on the scale of the executive, but Congress used to have a large permanent staff before Newt killed it off when he came to power.
posted by wierdo at 7:14 PM on October 3, 2023 [14 favorites]

Well if McCarthy wanted to make history, he certainly got his wish...
posted by gtrwolf at 7:14 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

I can't remember... Did Trump get any votes back in January?

Like, maybe one? I forget if it was Gaetz that nominated him in one round, or someone else. The prospect was not taken seriously.

Although, I wonder if Trump might think this would be his get out of jail card.

You could say that... since the Speaker is but two steps away from the Presidency.

The Secret Service would have to shift from its normal vigilant state into "radioactive mutants are crawling on the White House lawn" levels of precaution, as that would be a potential ongoing national security crisis of Biblical proportions.
posted by delfin at 7:17 PM on October 3, 2023 [14 favorites]

Kevin McCarthy’s press conference showed why he isn’t speaker anymore. He spent about half of it making shit up about Biden to suck up to the MAGA crew that just kicked him to the curb. Those bullies are not going to be nice to you Kev. You gotta stand up for yourself and punch them back .
posted by interogative mood at 7:28 PM on October 3, 2023 [20 favorites]

So is the Dem offer to support any candidate willing to give government funding through the end of next year coupled with Ukraine support? Cause that's where I'd be taking this discussion.

Fuck no. Let the Republicans own this shitshow.

I’m actually in awe that the Democrats continue to have this sort of parliamentary backbone. I didn’t think they had it in them anymore. I was hopeful after they let the Republicans eat shit for the 48 votes or w/e it took to elect McCarthy, and now they jumped on the chance to oust him. It’s fucking funny as shit and I am here for it
posted by rhymedirective at 7:32 PM on October 3, 2023 [19 favorites]

Patrick McHenry, a petty little fuck or up to something weird?
posted by Artw at 7:32 PM on October 3, 2023 [8 favorites]

Yes you would think all those people who are genuinely fiscally conservative but socially liberal would come into play here and ahahahahaha I’m sorry I can’t keep this up.

Those people do not exist in the modern Republican party. Or rather, where they existed, they have been removed from office in large part, or are retiring rather than be removed. Romney voted to impeach/convict Trump; it was political suicide, and he's done. Liz Cheney was removed from office. The party now is the lunatics and people who are desperately trying to hope their cowardice doesn't show as they try to avoid being targeted by the lunatics. The party is on fire and god only knows how long it will take to actually die.
posted by corb at 7:33 PM on October 3, 2023 [13 favorites]

And whose fault is this ouster, really? Um... (Melanie Zanona, CNN)

NEW: Republicans on the bipartisan Problem Solvers Caucus are considering quitting the group “en masse” after Democrats in the group voted to oust McCarthy, per a GOP member of the group. GOP member of the group had complained to me earlier: “Dem PSC members only want problem solvers to work when they are in the majority”

So it goes.
posted by delfin at 7:39 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]

Arrested Development already solved the problem of trump being the speaker from a jail cell Reanimate super Dave's corpse and make him a surrogate. Easy.
posted by Keith Talent at 7:49 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

Well, it's definitely a warning about how stupid this form of governing under the Hastert Rule is.

The hastert rule was simple: don't schedule a vote for things that aren't supported by a majority of the majority. That's all. There's nothing about this that has anything to do with the hastert rule.

That isn't how this kind of government is supposed to function, only bringing votes that can pass from within your own party.

That works just fine as long as you have a workable majority.

It worked just fine from 3 Jan 2021 thru 3 Jan 2023 when the Democrats had an about-equally-slim majority of the House. Zero drama, the House anyway was passing things on a regular basis. The key differences were

(1) They actually had a workable slim majority -- the majority that supported Pelosi in the Speaker vote was also willing to sit down and bargain in good faith to arrive at bills they'd be actually willing to vote for. As opposed to having to put together a coalition with weird slimy fuckers.
(2) Pelosi knew what the fuck she was doing.

It should be working where all manner of things are brought to a vote and are passed with all manner of coalitions across party lines, based on what is best for the constituents most affected by the measures up for a vote.

What you're describing is government in the old one-party south substituting factional lines for partisan, which was generally a corrupt clusterfuck. Nebraska also tried something similar with nonpartisan government from the 1930s thru, functionally, the mid 2000s or 2010s. It was also a colossal clusterfuck, so bad that you could not use legislators' electoral statements to make any predictions about their voting patterns (which, to be clear, you usually can do very easily).

If you want any kind of democratic accountability what you need is *clear partisan(-like) opposition*. This goes all the way back to Key in the 1940s.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 7:51 PM on October 3, 2023 [10 favorites]

I do wonder if some unicorn Republican from a Biden district could make a coalition play towards centrist Dems after a few dozen rounds of getting nowhere with Speaker elections. It would be smart, because it would be applying some serious pressure to divisions on the Dem side if they dangled the right carrots (locking in Ukraine aid and passing a budget?) and said Republican would be drowning in center right suburban votes in that kind of district next year if they pulled it off, but I don't know, I've been impressed by the lockstep the Dem caucus has been able to keep so maybe the centrist crowd wouldn't bite. There's no way to trust it wouldn't be Lucy and the football so I don't know that there exist assurances strong enough for anyone to justify taking the risk (especially right after Kevin gleefully tearing up deals), but god knows it would be tempting for the bipartisanship fetishists out there.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:55 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Previously impasses have been resolved by plurality election with absolute majority confirming the result.

It's like the wish.com version of a confidence and supply arrangement.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]

Yeah McCarthy has been outright rubbing Dem faces in how little he cares to stick to any deals even if he could wrangle his caucus to have anything to offer in the first place, including a last minute flat "no" on even bothering to talk concessions with Dems, so voting present or lending ayes to him would have been just political malpractice
posted by jason_steakums at 8:03 PM on October 3, 2023 [17 favorites]

If I'm wrong, please correct me, but - re Trump being speaker: don't you have to be actually IN the House of Representatives to be Speaker of said House?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:06 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

Nope! It's basically constitutional Air Bud rules for the Speakership. It's weird!
posted by jason_steakums at 8:07 PM on October 3, 2023 [41 favorites]

If I'm wrong, please correct me, but - re Trump being speaker: don't you have to be actually IN the House of Representatives to be Speaker of said House?

You do not. The constitution does not state that the speaker must be a member. That said, the republicans have so few votes to spare, and any Republican that won a district that Biden also won would know that voting for Trump as speaker would ensure this was their last term. (I hope. This timeline is stupid and anything can happen.)
posted by azpenguin at 8:11 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

don't you have to be actually IN the House of Representatives to be Speaker of said House?

You do not have to be a member of the body to be elected to lead it.

Same as with the Pope, oddly.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:18 PM on October 3, 2023 [11 favorites]

It might be a slight against Pelosi or it might be a matter of the need for the temporary speaker needing a hide away office and Pelosi gets the short straw because she’s no longer in the leadership. He doesn’t want to move into the regular speakers office because it would look presumptuous, even if he hopes to win. If he doesn’t become the next speaker at least he gets something for his trouble. Those hideaway offices are a huge perk. I’m surprised that Pelosi got to keep hers.
posted by interogative mood at 8:49 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

She didn’t.
posted by Melismata at 8:59 PM on October 3, 2023

Looks like Randy Rainbow was right in his "Speaker of the House" Les Mis parody and he didn't make it a year.
posted by corb at 9:11 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

If Trump were to become Speaker of the House, from there he would become President of the US if anything 'happened' to Biden and Harris.

A fully Constitutional coup in two simple, straightforward steps.
posted by jamjam at 9:13 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Not sure assassinating the president and vice president is allowed by the Constitution!
posted by mark k at 9:16 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

Not sure assassinating the president and vice president is allowed by the Constitution!

With THIS Supreme Court?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:17 PM on October 3, 2023 [39 favorites]

John Quincy Adams would have completely whiged out.
posted by clavdivs at 9:25 PM on October 3, 2023 [7 favorites]

Even if assassins admitted killing Biden and Harris in order to make Trump President, I don’t see any pre-existing mechanism that would keep Trump out of the Presudency, and in a more realistic best case scenario, it would be months at least before motives and prime movers became clear, and during that time Trump would be President and probably would have declared martial law immediately after being sworn in.
posted by jamjam at 9:29 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

There’s a reason the dog keeps biting the secret service, I’m just saying. Those guys are not to be trusted.
posted by Artw at 9:33 PM on October 3, 2023 [48 favorites]

I thought exactly the same thing, Artw.
posted by jamjam at 9:38 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

Plus if Trump offs them on federal land he can just pardon himself. Checkmate. libs.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:43 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

my dog (r.i.p.) always bit the secret service.
posted by philip-random at 9:51 PM on October 3, 2023 [6 favorites]

If Trump-as-Speaker becomes a Serious Idea that Serious People are debating then I don't see how it doesn't happen.

The GOP's eight non-Trump presidential candidates have a non-incumbent primary opponent who lost one election and two popular votes, and has like all the indictments. In a non-cult, that would be a slam dunk for any of them to take the lead. And yet all but 1½ of them vowed to support him on stage at a debate he didn't bother to attend. That's the eight prominent Republicans most directly challenging him and not also planning for their imminent retirement.

We're already in unprecedented territory by removing a Speaker in the first place, driven by people who give zero fucks about norms. "The Speaker doesn't have to be a representative" is another norm-breaking thing that—at any other time—would be an amusing thought experiment. But considering it now is cover for "so it might as well be Trump" to 221 people who can't afford to resist that idea if it comes up for a real vote, if they want to continue their political careers and avoid death threats from their former supporters.

And I'll be clear, if Trump became second in line to succeed the President then I think we're in a national security crisis. We've seen how recklessly low-level people crimed for Trump under the assumption that he would pardon them (despite his clear disdain for that ilk). We've also seen how he will shamelessly pardon unforgivable people if he thinks it's actually useful or suits his whims.

Tell me there aren't people close to Biden and Harris who fall into one of those two camps, and given the actions of the Secret Service since 1/6, tell me you're confident there's no one like that near them who also has a loaded gun.
posted by Riki tiki at 10:08 PM on October 3, 2023 [12 favorites]

if Trump became second in line to succeed the President then I think we're in a national security crisis

again
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:34 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

donate $10 to metafilter and I will memail a picture of the business card a secret service agent left at my house.

and and if Trump is speaker of the House, gets convicted of a crime, he could be impeached!
posted by clavdivs at 10:59 PM on October 3, 2023 [5 favorites]

<fuck></fuck>
posted by clavdivs at 10:59 PM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump as Speaker of the House is just goofy. Sure, from a reasoned, intelligent perspective it’s a frightening proposition - it would put him back in political play in a way that would be very difficult to maneuver around, and could potentially lead to more horrific outcomes than another January 6th. But anyone who knows anything about anything about Trump, knows that in his head Speaker of the House is A) third place after the President and Vice President, and B) a huge L since he still insists he never lost the presidency in the first place, and C) the job that was last held by that loser McCarthy and that (redacted) loser Nancy. So this is the loudest case of “If nominated, I will not run; if elected, I will not serve” I’ve ever heard about someone who knows nothing about leadership or US history.
posted by Mchelly at 11:10 PM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]

Thing is, the longer a shutdown goes the more people realize that government was important after all, and that's not a revelation that will work out well for the GOP. There's a reason the last-minute CR vote the other day was (relatively) bipartisan.

Ongoing who-should-be-Speaker drama, especially if it ends up in a shutdown leading into the holidays, makes it impossible to avoid that topic even in captured media like Fox. The Republican narrative is that they coherently resist bad government, they can't get caught incoherently causing it.

I mean this seriously: there may not be a way out of this mess before the 2024 elections. The catastrophe of a government shutdown like that is, like, fucking wow. They actually could drag everything down to hell with them.

But before that, there are Very Rich people who would stop getting federal money or would be unhappy about the USD being in jeopardy. They may have entertained this shit when it offered tax breaks, but they can't yet escape to a Randian dystopia on Mars and so they can't afford for the USA to collapse.

I think the most likely outcome is that the house will contrive some rules to keep doing business despite it being a pro tem Speaker, so we can go back to the "normal" funding drama when the CR expires. It's still an awful look for the Republicans, but it's not a stab in the gut.
posted by Riki tiki at 11:11 PM on October 3, 2023 [9 favorites]

I was at a kids birthday party on Saturday before the vote and a couple of military families were comparing notes about what they will have to do when the paycheck doesn’t show up. Derfering car payment, putting groceries on the credit cards, etc.
McCarthy used “the troops” as the reason he struck a deal. If we gut another shit down by the end of the year, I want to hear every Democrat screaming that the Republicans ruined Christmas for military families
posted by CostcoCultist at 11:46 PM on October 3, 2023 [24 favorites]

1 McCarthy = 4.9 Trusses = 25.4 Scaramuccis

Suspiciously close to the number of millimeters in an inch. You guys switching to metric?
posted by clawsoon at 11:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [15 favorites]

I kinda like the idea of Trump gunning for the speaker of the House role only to be taken aback that it doesn't just involve speaking but also things like being the chairperson of the House Office Building Commission.
posted by brundlefly at 11:58 PM on October 3, 2023 [7 favorites]

1 McCarthy = 4.9 Trusses

Not if you're a Brit, he doesn't. We're still suffering from her brief, fuckwitted reign as PM. As I write this, she's delivering one of her patented an "I was right all along" speech es at the Tory Party conference.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:22 AM on October 4, 2023 [8 favorites]

the idea of Trump gunning for the speaker of the House

he did that already
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:40 AM on October 4, 2023 [24 favorites]

Quasirandom: Apparently the GOP had to relearn the lesson that turning the base up too high blows out your Speaker.

🤦‍♂️,🫡
posted by sebastienbailard at 1:34 AM on October 4, 2023 [17 favorites]

I kinda like the idea of Trump gunning for the speaker of the House role only to be taken aback that it doesn't just involve speaking but also things like being the chairperson of the House Office Building Commission.

He just wouldn’t show up for that stuff or undertake any of the associated tasks. Why would he? Rules? Norms?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:02 AM on October 4, 2023 [10 favorites]

He would spend his entire time plotting an 'accident' for Biden/Harris. He'd get caught, because he's too dumb not to get caught. Then it'd be another round of Surely This!, the perfect phone call, he was just joking, he didn't actually do it, both sides do it anyway.
posted by adept256 at 2:10 AM on October 4, 2023 [14 favorites]

Thing is, the longer a shutdown goes the more people realize that government was important after all, and that's not a revelation that will work out well for the GOP.

Ehhhh, maybe. The deeper systemic effects of a shutdown will slow-roll into people’s lives over a period of months. The “pull up by your own boots” mentality runs deep among even mainstream republicans, and it will take quite a bit of real-life consequences to make them understand that government is essential in their lives. Maybe having grandma or mom facing eviction from the memory care facility because her social security and/or medicaid ran out will open their eyes?

Living where I do, I know that many of the bright-red counties in my state also tend to have very high numbers of families that rely on various mixes of federal assistance. These folks also, for some unfathomable reason, are hard-core right-wingers. They’ll be the first to get hit by the real consequences of a shutdown. I suspect, though, they’ll find some way to blame democrats for everything, and keep flying those Trump flags on their trucks.

This is a very frightening moment, frankly. We’re on the cusp of the “drown it in the bathtub” movement achieving their decades-long goal, and that crowd smells blood. I don’t think any amount of true chaos will dissuade them from going for the kill. I know McCarthy was a slimeball, but I kind of wish democrats hadn’t joined the vote to oust him. I think I understand their reasoning, but I don’t see things playing-out they way they might have hoped. There simply aren’t enough not-quite-as-insane-as-the-others republicans in the house to make any difference. The nutjobs that brought us to this moment hold all the cards. Either make one of their own (Gaetz? MTG?) speaker, or let chaos and collapse reign. They don’t care. Either way, they win.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:44 AM on October 4, 2023 [12 favorites]

just like a dog "wins" by catching a car and getting run over by it - they think they wanted this, but they're going to find the unforeseen consequences will be terrible and non-reversible

the real problem with drowning the government in the bathtub is then you have to take it out of the bathtub before it starts stinking up the house - and they're not strong enough

i've often heard it said that we live under a corporate run government - if that's true, they'll impose a new government on us and it won't be run by republicans - or democrats
posted by pyramid termite at 3:19 AM on October 4, 2023 [6 favorites]

clavdivs: donate $10 to metafilter and I will memail a picture of the business card a secret service agent left at my house.

No, you’re not gonna fool me with the “Mitch Hedberg- Potential Lunch Winner” thing again….
posted by dr_dank at 3:45 AM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

You do not have to be a member of the body to be elected to lead it. Same as with the Pope, oddly.

Well now you've got me all excited for Speaker of the House Lenny Belardo
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 3:45 AM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

I know McCarthy was a slimeball, but I kind of wish democrats hadn’t joined the vote to oust him. I think I understand their reasoning

He lied to them over and over again, making promises and then breaking them. The 2nd half of this WaPo article [gift] goes into some detail about how Dems rightfully came to think of him as utterly untrustworthy and completely useless:

“Nobody trusts Kevin McCarthy. Nobody trusts Kevin McCarthy,” Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), a leading liberal, told reporters after a raucous morning caucus...

They viewed him as morphing — fairly quickly over the past three years — into a craven, unprincipled leader just trying to cling to power for the sake of power alone...

“He has brought chaos to the House, and he’s saying keeping him in that position is how we solve that problem? That’s an argument that just isn’t selling,” said Rep. Adam Smith of Washington state, the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee and co-author of a Pentagon policy bill that won the panel’s approval 58-1.

House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries (D-N.Y.) cited that legislation as a key example of McCarthy’s deceit. Rather than advance such a bill with broad support, he caved to a few hard-right Republicans and loaded the legislation up with culture-war policy riders that passed on a narrow partisan vote...

On the final [Speaker] vote, 208 Democrats and eight Republicans voted against McCarthy, with 210 GOP lawmakers supporting him.

McCarthy’s allies had hoped that senior Democrats who care for the institution, particularly Rep. Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland, who served 20 years in leadership and has traveled abroad with McCarthy, would find a way to give him enough support...

Oops. McCarthy’s Sunday morning talk show nonsense was apparently the final straw:

And on a Sunday show appearance that was shown to the rank-and-file Democrats on Tuesday, the now ex-speaker blamed the near shutdown of the federal government on Democrats.

“We are not saving Kevin McCarthy,” Jayapal said afterward.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 AM on October 4, 2023 [31 favorites]

Living where I do, I know that many of the bright-red counties in my state also tend to have very high numbers of families that rely on various mixes of federal assistance. These folks also, for some unfathomable reason, are hard-core right-wingers.

The secret ingredient is white supremacy. The main flaw they find in government assistance programs is that they are available to Black people.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 5:02 AM on October 4, 2023 [73 favorites]

Given that the House is divided along three parties now, a mathematically reasonable next step is to vote a Democrat in as Speaker.
posted by swift at 5:08 AM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

they'll impose a new government on us and it won't be run by republicans - or democrats

I've speculated that this could be one possible end state of an attempted Republican takeover--the incompetence and chaos that would break out would be intolerable to more powerful interests. Imagine something like a "national stability council" to take over until things get sorted out. A group of not well known business leaders with military and maybe executive branch advisors to direct things so that the dollar doesn't crash, military cohesion is preserved, "law and order" by some high-level definition (set by them, not us) is maintained. Existing structures like Congress would more or less remain in place, if only for window-dressing.

The message to far-right Republicans would be: congratulations, you've ushered in a new era. But no way are you going to be allowed to lead it.

Best case for the MAGA-heads is that they get left with a finder's fee, like Jerry Lundegaard in "Fargo". But it's my deal, Wade....!

(This is only speculation of course, and I'm in no way advocating for any of this.)
posted by gimonca at 5:16 AM on October 4, 2023

and said Republican would be drowning in center right suburban votes in that kind of district next year if they pulled it off

Maybe, but given the Republican media climate they might spend that time being accused of being a pedophile and/or liberal and dealing with weekly death threats. Most of the reasonable voices have been purged from the party in the era since Obama was elected.
posted by adamsc at 5:24 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

GCU Sweet and Full of Grace Nancy Pelosi was vocal in her opposition to the ~~Pedophile Rule~~ er that is "Hastert Rule" and did not apply it during her time as Speaker. We can blame a lot of things on Pelosi, but not that one.
posted by sotonohito at 5:24 AM on October 4, 2023 [13 favorites]

As for the "government shutdown", trillion dollar coin or otherwise, it's obvious that neither the President nor the Senate will permit the government to just vanish in a puff of logic because ten assholes in the House won't allow a new Speaker.

The fact that Things Republicans Like (spies, killing foreigners, the FBI, etc) are exempt from the so-called "shutdown" is proof it's bullshit and we can and should ignore it and just fund as we have been.

That's always been the big issue with 'shutdowns' in the past. They aren't real shutdowns. The Republicans get to keep the parts of the government they like running while shutting the rest down.

Stop paying the Army, and watch how quick the 'shutdown' ends.
posted by sotonohito at 5:28 AM on October 4, 2023 [19 favorites]

Gaetz and MTG as unlikely to do any actual real job that comes with a role as Trump if we’re honest.
posted by Artw at 5:38 AM on October 4, 2023

There simply aren’t enough not-quite-as-insane-as-the-others republicans in the house to make any difference.

Until this weekend, I was pretty sure we'd lose the country because one man would rather keep his job than do his job. McCarthy is no hero. Part of the reason we got into this mess was because of his willingness do do whatever it it would take to become Speaker, but at some point he stopped putting his own petty ambition ahead of the nation. Maybe he had a revelation about duty and selflessly fell on his sword. Maybe he selfishly did it to preserve what little legacy he has. What matters is he said "enough" and knowing the personal consequences, decided not to indulge in creating a government shutdown and I think that's reason to have some hope that there are limits to Republican insanity.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:54 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Stop paying the Army, and watch how quick the 'shutdown' ends.

I'm not going to go look up a list of them, but to a first approximation anyway all of the general shutdowns we've had over the last 30 or 40 years have stopped paying the military.

They just have to keep going to work anyway.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:05 AM on October 4, 2023 [22 favorites]

Maybe he had a revelation about duty and selflessly fell on his sword. Maybe he selfishly did it to preserve what little legacy he has. What matters is he said "enough" and knowing the personal consequences, decided not to indulge in creating a government shutdown and I think that's reason to have some hope that there are limits to Republican insanity.

I think he just knew Republicans were touching the stove again and had to force them to stop, but that was only self-preservation for the party, not principle. They've been burned for this exact thing too many times before.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:05 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

P01135809 cannot be appointed the speakership under rules enacted by republicans to prohibit anyone under an indictment that could result in 2 (or more) years of incarceration from holding the gavel.

This is like watching rabid clowns wrestling in a sceptic tank.
posted by The Vice Admiral of the Narrow Seas at 6:05 AM on October 4, 2023 [22 favorites]

This is like watching rabid clowns wrestling in a sceptic tank.

I’m presuming you meant “septic”, but honestly it’s funnier with the typo.
posted by notoriety public at 6:19 AM on October 4, 2023 [24 favorites]

The discussion of Gaetz reminded me of Al Franken's comment on Ted Cruz: "I like Ted Cruz more than most of my other colleagues like Ted Cruz. And I hate Ted Cruz."
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:34 AM on October 4, 2023 [12 favorites]

GCU Sweet and Full of Grace Nancy Pelosi was vocal in her opposition to the Pedophile Rule er that is "Hastert Rule" and did not apply it during her time as Speaker. We can blame a lot of things on Pelosi, but not that one.

You would know she meant that when you saw a bill pass that split Democrats with a majority of Democrats losing. It's certainly possible that a couple-few votes like that exist in the 117th House but, casually paging through the votes until I get bored, I can't see any.

The (near-total?) absence of such votes strongly that Pelosi was using the basic principle but found it politic to say otherwise. Well, under the circumstances I suppose "The House Republicans were just too fucking stupid to actually offer any bills that would significantly split the Democratic majority" can't be rejected out of hand.

"We're not going to bring forward bills that a majority of us are opposed to" isn't blameworthy in any case.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:40 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Extruding McCarthy
(to improve our business acumen...)
posted by chavenet at 6:42 AM on October 4, 2023 [12 favorites]

In this political climate, I find it impossible to imagine a theoretical bill that the Democratic leadership would WANT to pass, that would fail with a majority of Democratic party votes but pass with the support of some wing of Republicans. I don't think you can pin that on Nancy Pelosi.
posted by rikschell at 6:46 AM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

The idea that the Democrats should care more about "the institution" than about protecting their own interests is pretty fucking dumb, actually, and I've seen a lot of "serious" pundits saying this absolutely batshit thing that, if proposed in a parliamentary democracy, would get you laughed out of the room so fast you'd leave your shoes behind.

The thing is--by their very definition, members of political parties believe that having their party in power is better for the country, so why would any political party do anything "for the good of the nation" or w/e other asinine reasoning some braindead norms hot-taker dreams up in their fevered little brain?

Coalition governments take shape because political parties extract concessions from the party that needs them to form a government. Just because we have this dumbass system doesn't change the fundamental rules of representative democracy.

Good on the Democrats for continuing to remember this. This is a Republican problem and the Democrats should not lift a goddamn finger to help them, and I hope they're seriously working to find 6 Republican votes to elect a Democrat speaker.
posted by rhymedirective at 7:10 AM on October 4, 2023 [23 favorites]

If the acting Speaker can only can only recess the House, adjourn the chamber and recognize speaker nominations, how can he kick Pelosi and Hoyer out of their hideaway offices?
Couldn't they just say 'I'll wait for someone with power tells me to go'?
posted by MtDewd at 7:21 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

So we're saying there's a chance the Pope will become the next Speaker of the House. In said case would he exercise his power of Excommunication on the Freedom Caucus, and would the Supreme Court dare stand in his way?

Well he could, but I'm willing to bet that the "Freedom" Caucus leans to the vehemently anti-catholic flavors of protestantism, and such a move would elicit at least a shrug and likeley celebration.
posted by ArgentCorvid at 7:22 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

The first time the pope addressed congress was by invitation of very catholic speaker Boehner. The pope said his usual, use your power to help those without, feed the poor, house the homeless, heal the sick. The kind of things Jesus would say, all that commie crap. Boehner retired the next day. I think he grows pot now.
posted by adept256 at 7:33 AM on October 4, 2023 [43 favorites]

Imagine waking up every day and having to tell people no, we're not going to pass a bill to restore segregation or punish homelessness with the death penalty.

Is that actually in the job description? Because I have trouble believing McCarthy ever did it.
posted by nickmark at 7:50 AM on October 4, 2023

"Freedom" Caucus leans to the vehemently anti-catholic flavors of protestantism, and such a move would elicit at least a shrug and likeley celebration.

Does such a thing still exist? There's a bizarre ecumenicalism of hate between several flavors of hardline Catholics and their Protestant brethren (e.g. Barrett, Alito). Also, hardline Mormons. I keep hoping those groups will realize the authoritarian theocracy they want is not the one their fairweather friends are going to institute, but thus far they don't seem to have gotten the memo.
posted by jackbishop at 8:08 AM on October 4, 2023 [6 favorites]

Oh yeah, there are catholics that fucking hate the pope. Don't mention Pope Speaker Justice Kavanaugh to them, you'll give them ideas.
posted by adept256 at 8:17 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Oh yeah, there are catholics that fucking hate the pope.

There are also hard-right Catholics that blow past just hating the pope into refusing to accept that any pope since 1962 has even been valid. And some even go a few steps past that and elect their own popes.

Mel Gibson's dad was one such "no pope has counted since 1962" guy.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 AM on October 4, 2023 [11 favorites]

And stepping away from the weird corners of Catholicism....

CNN has this short list of people who are showing signs of running for the seat:

* Jim Jordan
* Tom Emmer
* Kevin Hern
* Steve Scalise
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:30 AM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Kevin Hern

Not to be confused with Kevin Hearn...
posted by Xoder at 8:38 AM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Kevin Hern

Not to be confused with Kevin Hearn...

There might be an opportunity here.
posted by duoshao at 8:40 AM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

* Steve Scalise

Probably the only one that has a shot.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 8:43 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

OF COURSE Jim Jordan, a man who helped cover up for pedophiles, is in the running to be Republican Speaker of the House. Because how else would we get our daily reminder that the Republicans are terrible people pushing harmful ideology?

Every accusation from a Republican is a confession.
posted by sotonohito at 8:45 AM on October 4, 2023 [9 favorites]

Sounds like they're more concerned about who gets the nicer office than government continuity.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:45 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

One comment deleted. Refrain from making light jokes in a serious discussion. Moreover when is comes to a shooting.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:07 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

* Steve Scalise
Probably the only one that has a shot.

He describes himself as "David Duke without the baggage," so that's just peachy.
posted by riotnrrd at 9:18 AM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Not to be confused with Kevin Hearn...

Or Kevin Hearne, who I'm delighted to find out became a Canadian citizen last year after living in Canada for five years.
posted by Mitheral at 9:19 AM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Fiat iustitia, etiamsi Kevin cadit.

Let justice be done though the Kevin falls.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:23 AM on October 4, 2023 [11 favorites]

Jim Jordan? These fuckers don't understand how anything works. This is how they can conceive of a 'deep state'. They're like people who didn't understand radio, there must be a demon inside the talking box. They know it works, but they don't trust it, because they don't know how it works. Now it's their turn to be in charge of the demon box, and they think they can fix it by expelling the demons.

There are no demons! There are just people working to keep the government running. People at the end of their fucking rope after all their shit. And they can't fucking fix it! They don't understand why they're being told things they don't like. It must be demons, the dogma says slashing the budget will lead us to heaven, and they're telling us it'll crash the economy. Heresy!

Fucking Jim Jordan? The extremist takeover is so fucking stupid.

And I believe anyone who covers up sexual abuse should go to prison.
posted by adept256 at 9:56 AM on October 4, 2023 [28 favorites]

Charlotte Clymer

McCarthy served 270 days, the equivalent of 27 scaramuccis or 0.093 of a pelosi, after giving away his power—and his dignity—to man-toddlers who eventually stabbed him in the back.

Just shy of a centipelosi.

Scalzi

This is the problem with the recent conservative trick of offering things up for a vote without the intention or expectation of winning, and then not having a plan for when you do win. Trump’s 2016 presidential run, the Brexit vote in the UK, this bit of chicanery: They were supposed to be useful bits of messaging, not actual things that were meant to happen. But then they did, and those who offered them for voting was caught flat-footed. We see the mess that Brexit and a Trump presidency have gotten us. This new nonsense is smaller, to be sure, but the dynamic is the same. Modern conservatives can’t govern; they can only signal. That’s the only thing they know how to do any more.

Hastert might have been on to something.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:09 AM on October 4, 2023 [32 favorites]

DougJ the New York Times Pitchbot gets to the heart of the matter with Jordan:

Jim Jordan's detractors say his involvement with a sex abuse scandal at Ohio State should disqualify the Congressman from holding GOP leadership positions. His supporters say he could be a fine Speaker in the mold of Dennis Hastert.

posted by NoxAeternum at 10:45 AM on October 4, 2023 [34 favorites]

churchhatestucker: Hastert might have been on to something.

You know, I often confuse the names Hastert (the Serial Child-Molester, the Banking Criminal, the Fallen Rep), who is an entity of the Republican Party, with with Hastur (The Unspeakable One, The King in Yellow, Him Who Is Not to be Named, Assatur, Xastur, H'aaztre, or Kaiwan), an entity of the Cthulhu Mythos.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:49 AM on October 4, 2023 [17 favorites]

I'm delighted to find out became a Canadian citizen last year after living in Canada for five years.

Turns out he lives one town over from me. And he has a standing requests for bottles of whiskey. I have bottles of whiskey.
posted by bonehead at 10:55 AM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Hear me out: Beaker of the House
posted by mcstayinskool at 10:57 AM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

Jim Jordan

One wag on the Ohio subreddit has suggested that we can get him to withdraw by claiming that the job of Speaker requires him to wear a suit jacket.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:23 AM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

P01135809 cannot be appointed the speakership under rules enacted by republicans to prohibit anyone under an indictment that could result in 2 (or more) years of incarceration from holding the gavel.
This is the first time I heard of this rule. Source?
If it's true, I'm once again pleased with the R's inability to craft legislation that won't come back to bite them.
posted by MtDewd at 11:34 AM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

MtDewd, here you go: https://www.kxan.com/news/national-news/what-is-rule-26-and-could-it-keep-trump-from-being-speaker-of-the-house/
posted by wenestvedt at 11:38 AM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

You know, I often confuse the names Hastert (the Serial Child-Molester, the Banking Criminal, the Fallen Rep), who is an entity of the Republican Party, with with Hastur

Say what you will about The King in Yellow; at least they could rule.

Or, if you prefer: one in them is a monstrous thing bloated on the suffering of many; the other dwells in lost Carcosa.
posted by GenjiandProust at 11:46 AM on October 4, 2023 [23 favorites]

Get Kevin out of the house. Is this a Home Alone sequel? Because I recall Trump showing up in one of those.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:53 AM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Get Kevin out of the house. Is this a Home Alone sequel?

Kevin's not here...
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:01 PM on October 4, 2023

There are no demons! There are just people working to keep the government running.

See, that's the problem. The Reagan mantra is that the federal government is the prince of all demons, in and of itself.

Which is to say, the parts of the federal government that conservatives can dominate and prosper from? Those are fine. It's all of those other parts -- you know, the ones that insist that those not in a specific ethnic-racial-religion-gender-sexual preference-economic class-etc etc etc are just as American as those who are and deserve equivalent treatment and benefits under the law, and states aren't allowed to specify otherwise -- that simply have to go.
posted by delfin at 12:04 PM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

Just a quick recap of the last 5 GOP House Majority leaders:

2023 - 2023: Kevin McCarthy gets fired after tangling with the far right-wing of the GOP (Freedom Caucus)
2015 - 2019: Paul Ryan has a largely unremarkable tenure as majority leader after taking over from...
2011 - 2015: John Boehner who resigned after tangling with the far right-wing of the GOP (Tea Party)
1999 - 2007: Denny Hastert resigned after poor midterm electoral performance (plus some ethics stuff but not, afaik, the later-revealed sex crime stuff)
1995 - 1997: Newt Gingrich resigned after the Clinton impeachment kinda backfired and made Clinton more popular (plus some ethics stuff)

I'm sensing a pattern here.

Even more amusingly, going through the wikipedia summaries of these events you find how the same names keep cropping up. For example,

In the summer of 1997, several House Republicans attempted to replace him as Speaker, claiming Gingrich's public image was a liability. The attempted "coup" began July 9 with a meeting of Republican conference chairman John Boehner of Ohio and Republican leadership chairman Bill Paxon of New York.

And of course:

On September 25, 2015, Boehner announced that he would step down as Speaker and resign from Congress at the end of October 2015. [...]

Originally, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California had intended to run for Speaker and was seen as the prohibitive favorite. On October 8, 2015, McCarthy abruptly rescinded his candidacy, citing that he felt he could not effectively lead a fractured Republican Conference.

Bonus trivia question: Prior to Gingrich, who was the last GOP House Majority Leader? Answer.
posted by mhum at 12:18 PM on October 4, 2023 [6 favorites]

One thing you have to admire, though, is the level of unfailing commitment the republicans have to that whole "tell people government is broken, then get elected and go prove it" thing.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:18 PM on October 4, 2023 [11 favorites]

It was Gingrich's contract on America that started off this whole process that has led to the Freedom Caucus and McCarthy's ouster this year. Over 30 years is a quality long game, and I hope Newt is pleased with himself.
posted by hippybear at 12:31 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Over 30 years is a quality long game, and I hope Newt is pleased with himself.

Not really.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:37 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Originally, House Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy of California had intended to run for Speaker and was seen as the prohibitive favorite. On October 8, 2015, McCarthy abruptly rescinded his candidacy, citing that he felt he could not effectively lead a fractured Republican Conference.

And because of some uh, other reasons
posted by jason_steakums at 12:53 PM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

Non-American here: Assuming Trump could become Speaker, would the whole "it's a demanding job" thing be a problem for him? There must be House members trained to act as Speaker if the actual one is incapacitated or otherwise absent, so why not just get one of them to fill in for him on a full-time basis?
posted by Epixonti at 12:54 PM on October 4, 2023

Bold of you to assume that any of that matters to him.
posted by gc at 12:56 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Point taken, but it would to the Republican caucus.
posted by Epixonti at 1:18 PM on October 4, 2023

Also... Every Single Complaint I've seen about McCarthy from both R and D during this whole thing is that he's lied to everyone. He'd lied to his party, he's lied to the other party, he's lied to the White House... So I don't know why anyone thinks bringing in Trump who can't go 20 minutes without lying somehow would improve the situation of Speakership.
posted by hippybear at 1:35 PM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

> mhum: "I'm sensing a pattern here."

From Talking Points Memo, "Kevin McCarthy’s Ouster Is A Mere Symptom Of The Deeper GOP Pathology":

Between the comedic value, the schadenfreude, the story-telling appeal, and voyeuristic frisson, there’s a lot to love about the downfall of Kevin McCarthy. He deserved everything he got. The House GOP is a colossal mess. If you like spectacles that reinforce your priors and expose the foibles of the incompetent and cruel, this is a glorious time.

[...]

But this is not really about Kevin McCarthy. He’s a stand-in. Before him were the chronically debased Paul Ryan and John Boehner. The House GOP has been on this merry-go-round for more than a decade.

McCarthy’s downfall is another symptom of the same underlying pathologies: a cultish GOP in thrall to a would-be autocrat, anti-majoritarian structural impediments, a surge in right-wing extremism, white resentments and grievances channeled into a burn-it-all-down fever.

I'm of the opinion that there's at least one other related factor, but it's a little subtle and hard to pin down but I do believe it holds: far-right conservatives don't believe in compromise. Any form of concession or compromise in a negotiation is prima facie evidence of weakness and weakness is, of course, completely unacceptable. If a conservative doesn't get 110% of everything they want while simultaneously giving up nothing in return, then the negotiation was an utter failure. Anything short of complete dominance is failure. You can imagine how this type of mindset may make parliamentary-style governance rather challenging (read: a complete shitshow).
posted by mhum at 1:38 PM on October 4, 2023 [30 favorites]

2015 - 2019: Paul Ryan has a largely unremarkable tenure as majority leader after taking over from...

Unremarkable in the sense that he let Trump walk all over him, and was just smart enough to jump before he was pushed.

There must be House members trained to act as Speaker if the actual one is incapacitated or otherwise absent, so why not just get one of them to fill in for him on a full-time basis?

There is not, in so far as I am aware, any sort of "training program" for Speaker of the House - members would learn how to be Speaker by participating in House business as ordinary representatives and observing and maybe some unofficial mentoring.

For "act as Speaker if the actual one is incapacitated" - there are rules for that: Wikipedia: Speaker pro tempore. (TL:DR being that there's really no legal way for Trump to fuck off and assign someone else to do all the work unless he's willing to battle with the rest of the House about who that would be on virtually a weekly basis. Speaker pro tempore is by the rules a short-lived and temporary position.)
posted by soundguy99 at 1:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

This whole "Trump as Speaker" discourse is weird. It's entirely divorced from reality in numerous ways.

Anyway, it's going to be Scalise.

“Any form of concession or compromise in a negotiation is prima facie evidence of weakness and weakness is, of course, completely unacceptable.”

Noting that you quoted Josh Marshall, I'll point out that this is in keeping with his "Dominance Politics" theory of Trumpism and the modern GOP.

Pull the lens back more widely, this is a core of the global return of fascism. You see this behavior/signaling everywhere.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:44 PM on October 4, 2023 [14 favorites]

Why does every photo of Gaetz make him look like a late-season villain from Gotham?
For some reason, I have always found it extremely difficult to smile evenly for photographs, so that I almost always appear to be smirking, for better or for worse. I was just wondering whether he has that same problem, though you'd really think a pro politician would have had it trained out of him (it's often for worse!).

Now that anyone furloughed in a government "shutdown" is guaranteed back pay when it's all over, a "shutdown" is double-stupid. Why would you furlough anyone or stop doing business if you're going to have to pay them anyway? It saves no money. And then if each agency does the rational thing and doesn't furlough anyone, it not only saves no money, but also interrupts no business. It's theater that only pisses off the tens of thousands you're giving IOUs instead of money.
posted by ctmf at 2:57 PM on October 4, 2023 [13 favorites]

I will also add that I think it's quite possible the Gaetz Gang see this as an opportunity to achieve their goal of killing the government. Can't have a budget without a Speaker so if they don't allow a Speaker to exist then to their way of thinking the Federal government will have no choice but to collapse and cease existing.

I may be missing something here, but: If this is based on the idea that the House can't do anything until a Speaker is elected, I don't think it's correct.

It was the case in January, but there was no Speaker Pro Tem at that time (there is now). I don't think there's any obligation to put aside all other business before the Speaker Pro Tem is replaced by a de jure Speaker. They can if they want to, of course, but the House can function perfectly well* without an actual Speaker, all the way out to the next incoming Congress (in 2025).

*: By which I mean "as usual"
posted by Flunkie at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

From Thorzdad's link, quoting Newt's take on the situation:

"He said: 'Imagine [the University of Georgia] is playing Alabama in football and four of the UGA defensive linemen turn around and tackle their own quarterback. What would you call that?'"

Now, I'm generally not a proponent of thinking about politics in terms of sports, because (aside from the general annoyingness of sports metaphors in our discourse) politics shouldn't be a zero-sum "the purpose of the activity is to win at someone else's expense" kind of situation. Politics should be about making things better for everyone and finding ways to work through honestly-held disagreements about how to accomplish that; I think that framing it in sports metaphors detracts from that and promotes the us-vs-them mentality that is part of the problem with current policy-making.

But since Newt took us there and asked my opinion, I'll say: What the hell kind of buffoon coach does UGA have that they've got their quarterback on the field at the same time as their defensive line?
posted by nickmark at 3:00 PM on October 4, 2023 [50 favorites]

I don't think there's any obligation to put aside all other business before the Speaker Pro Tem is replaced by a de jure Speaker.

That's debatable. I mean, they certainly could continue business with a pro tem under the "it's all Calvinball anyway, who gives a fuck what the rules say" theory.

'Under Clause 8(b)(3)(A), the Speaker pro tempore may "exercise such authorities of the Office of the Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end."' - what does "to that end" mean
posted by ctmf at 3:05 PM on October 4, 2023 [4 favorites]

What you're describing is government in the old one-party south substituting factional lines for partisan, which was generally a corrupt clusterfuck.

What I'm really describing here is what generally took place before Gingrich's Contract On America took place and the death of earmarks.

Members of Congress used to sit and bargain with each other. You support giving me this for my district, and I'll support giving you that for your district. And yeah, it was pork barrel politics but deals actually got made and compromises used to happen regularly. Back in the era of Tip O'Neill and even for a short era after him, members of the House and Senate used to have dinners and cocktail hours with members of the opposite parties. This is a thing that I hear doesn't happen any more. And this kind of ideological and social segregation is not how actual politics and governing gets done.

I appreciate the points you make about how a party-free system can lead to a form of deadlock, and how this has been demonstrated in the past with extreme examples, but that isn't what I'm talking about, and you've misinterpreted me.
posted by hippybear at 3:07 PM on October 4, 2023 [11 favorites]

It is definitely another warning to everyone about how fragile our democracy is, that the system can be sabotaged by a handful of malicious people.
Well, it's definitely a warning about how stupid this form of governing under the Hastert Rule is. That isn't how this kind of government is supposed to function, only bringing votes that can pass from within your own party.

I'm not a big fan of the Hastert Rule, but I don't think it has anything to do with this (at least not directly; maybe in a sense of "contributed to the overall atmosphere that eventually led to this", I guess).

First, it's not actually a rule, except in the sense that Republicans regularly use it. There's no actual requirement to do so.

Second, it doesn't say that votes won't be allowed unless they can pass from within your own party; rather, it says that votes won't be allowed unless a majority of your party would vote to pass them.

Only a very small minority of the GOP caucus voted for ousting McCarthy. Under the Hastert Rule, it wouldn't have even come close to being allowed to come to a vote in the first place (and in fact that's even true if the Hastert Rule were that it would have to pass with only GOP support).
posted by Flunkie at 3:19 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

(in the context of "Trump becomes Speaker of the House"):

Even if assassins admitted killing Biden and Harris in order to make Trump President, I don’t see any pre-existing mechanism that would keep Trump out of the Presudency, and in a more realistic best case scenario, it would be months at least before motives and prime movers became clear, and during that time Trump would be President and probably would have declared martial law immediately after being sworn in.

I don't think "motives and prime movers" would have anything to do with it, legally. As long as the Speaker is eligible to the Presidency (i.e. 35+ years old, natural born citizen, not barrred from office in general e.g. under the 14th), the Speaker is President as soon as the spot opens for them.

Speaker Trump could've actually been the assassin himself, and could've done it, as he likes to say, with a gun in the middle of 5th Avenue. He would still become President. Of course, he could then be removed by impeachment in the House and conviction in the Senate, but... sadly, I wouldn't count on it.
posted by Flunkie at 3:35 PM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

clavdivs:

donate $10 to metafilter and I will memail a picture of the business card a secret service agent left at my house.

Done! Best ten bucks I've ever spent!

Mods, please confirm (at least to clavdivs). Thanks.
posted by Flunkie at 3:42 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Right...the Hastert Rule and others like it are only applicable to normal bills and motions. There the Speaker of the House and the House Rules Committee control what is (and isn't) put up for debate and votes in the house. Traditionally the Rules Committee is stacked with people very loyal to the Speaker. Thus the small inner circle can be assured that only things they care about get attention of the whole House.

The Motion to Vacate the Chair (i.e. the Speaker of the House) is a "privileged motion" which means once entered on it must be acted upon almost immediately (I believe it is within 2 legislative days).

In the past individual representatives and specifically the chairs of influential committees almost acted like individual fiefdoms. Things were worked on in committee, passed out, voted on in the floor with the pork-barrel-earmark-horse-trading as mentioned above. At some point in the semi-recent-past, it dawned on the parties that herding all the members especially the kooky and cranky ones was tough and it was easier to centralized control into the party leadership to stay focused on an agenda.

This is an anathema to ambitious back bench representatives because there isn't much to do but toil away on sub-committees and only voting the way the leaders want you to. The calls for a return to "Regular Order" restores more power in the committees.

The "discharge petition" is the other way around House leadership but the process to invoke it is some time consuming and laborious that it a non-starter in almost all cases.
posted by mmascolino at 3:46 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Sounds like they're more concerned about who gets the nicer office
Not the "nicer" office, but the closer bolt-hole to the Senate floor.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:54 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Also... Every Single Complaint I've seen about McCarthy from both R and D during this whole thing is that he's lied to everyone. He'd lied to his party, he's lied to the other party, he's lied to the White House... So I don't know why anyone thinks bringing in Trump who can't go 20 minutes without lying somehow would improve the situation of Speakership.

I guess it depends what you mean by "improve", but it seems to me that Trump has a huge (yuge?) advantage over McCarthy here because essentially no GOP member of the House would dare cross him. "He lied to me" would, even if demonstrably true, be evidence that the accuser hates America and so forth.
posted by Flunkie at 4:04 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

The tweet omits the whole rule, so it is misleading. The full rule is:

(3)(A) In the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker, the next Member on the list described in subdivision (B) shall act as Speaker pro tempore until the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore. Pending such election the Member acting as Speaker pro tempore may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end.

To that end is the election of the new speaker.
posted by interogative mood at 5:22 PM on October 4, 2023 [5 favorites]

I guess it depends what you mean by "improve", but it seems to me that Trump has a huge (yuge?) advantage over McCarthy here because essentially no GOP member of the House would dare cross him.

They already did - he was very clear that he wanted them to let the government shut down. A majority of them supported the CR in direct contradiction of this directive.

We're in all kinds of unprecedented territory and all kinds of things can happen, of course.
posted by StarkRoads at 5:54 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

interrogative mood, I don't know what tweet you're referring to, but if you're taking "the full rule" to mean "they can't do anything but try to elect a new speaker", I don't think that' correct - or at least not obviously so.

Here's an NYT article that, despite the seemingly authoritatively cut-and-dry subheadline ("Representative Patrick T. McHenry of North Carolina, who took the gavel, may oversee the election of a new speaker. But he does not have the power to run the chamber") doesn't actually offer any evidence of the claim. It does offer some opinions, but of both "he can't" and "he can" people.
posted by Flunkie at 6:02 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

"From a Capitol Hill Basement, Steve Bannon Stokes the Republican Party Meltdown:
The former Trump adviser has helped create the spectacle of G.O.P. dysfunction, using it to build his own following and those of the right-wing House rebels who took down Kevin McCarthy." NYT gift link
posted by Rumple at 6:04 PM on October 4, 2023

I reject the NYT framing of the MAGA reps as "rebels" and suggest they be called "arsonists" or "vandals" or seditionists" instead.
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2023 [16 favorites]

StarkRoads, OK, sure, and in fact he's even been defied occasionally by the odd GOP member even when he was president. I guess I shouldn't have been so absolute in my claim that none of them "would dare cross him", but I stand by the general idea within the context I was writing in: I don't think the "They've ousted McCarthy saying it was because he lied to them" thing necessarily shows that they would oust Trump when he inevitably lies to them. Largely because Trump exercises de facto bullying powers over the GOP as a whole that McCarthy never came close to.
posted by Flunkie at 6:08 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

The tweet omits the whole rule, so it is misleading. The full rule is:
(3)(A) In the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker, the next Member on the list described in subdivision (B) shall act as Speaker pro tempore until the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore. Pending such election the Member acting as Speaker pro tempore may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end.
To that end is the election of the new speaker.

Given that the rule was put in place in response to concerns about continuity of government, I think there's some ambiguity about the meaning of 'to that end'. Presumably in some kind of crisis situation you wouldn't want the House to waste time on a speaker election when they could be passing the Patriot Act part II or declaring war or whatever.
posted by macfly at 6:09 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

Not really. The House is not an executive body; it does not exist to react to a crisis within hours. It may not even be in session!

The rule is really about continuity of parliamentary procedure, not about continuity of government. Without it there would be almost no way forward out of what would generally be a quite mundane situation. If there weren't a rule for this case there'd be no one to recognize the motion to vote for a new speaker!

If they intended the speaker pro tempore in this situation to also be able to do ordinary business within some limits, they would have included the explicit language they wrote into the sections authorizing pro tempore speakerships that arise out of other (not vacancy-related) situations.

Incidentally, the contortions the House has to go through at the start of each term--when there are officially no members and thus no rules--are fun to read once, including sentences like Even before adoption of rules, it is in order to consider as privileged a resolution in the nature of a special order of business that makes in order the subsequent consideration of a resolution adopting the rules for the newly organized House.
posted by mark k at 6:33 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Ultimately the answer to the question "what can the Speaker pro tem do" is "whatever the majority allows him to do".

There is no higher authority to appeal to here. There is nothing in the Constitution about this, it's purely a matter of internal House rules. The Supreme Court has no ability to intercede, nor does the Senate, nor does the President.

In the end it's all down to whatever the House decides.

Can the Speaker pro tem basically be the Speaker on a semi-unofficial basis forever? If the House agrees then yes.

Of course that's the rub. "The House" is 435 individuals split between two parties and the Republicans have the majority only if they get the Gaetz Gang on board. The Dems have no reason to agree that the Speaker pro tem can do anything but oversee the election of a new Speaker, and the Gaetz Gang might well withhold their votes out of sheer spite if the Speaker pro tem tries to do anything other than oversee the election of a new Speaker.

We're right back to the problem that the Republican Party is dysfunctional, the House Republicans are split, and none of them are (yet) desperate enough to make binding deals with the Democrats to end the deadlock. Plus of course the minor detail that there's no such thing as a "binding" deal because once the Democrats have helped elect a Republican Speaker there's no actual laws requiring him to keep his word.
posted by sotonohito at 6:38 PM on October 4, 2023 [10 favorites]

I think it reads equally clearly as "exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to the end of acting as Speaker pro tempore" or "exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to the end of running the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore", it hinges on what the "that" in "that end" means.

I'm bewildered that we still, in the 21st century, pass laws with inexact language like that.

My big question is, what's the circumstance in which they would elect a Speaker pro tempore instead of a full-fledged Speaker?
posted by jason_steakums at 6:42 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

My big question is, what's the circumstance in which they would elect a Speaker pro tempore instead of a full-fledged Speaker?

Any time things had stalled out with parliamentary rules of order and they need a leader to get things moving toward getting a leader elected. It's easier to elect someone to handle the job of getting someone elected than it is to handle that election directly. You have to have someone handling the process.

That's why at the beginning of the House term, it was I think the House Clerk who was handling things. although that might have been at the direction of some kind of pro tempore House official.
posted by hippybear at 6:58 PM on October 4, 2023

But I mean in the situation where you already have a Speaker pro tempore because of the list the Speaker put together, which also lists others who can move into that position in order, what's up with the ability to use the pro temp powers to elect another pro temp? I suppose if the House doesn't want that particular Speaker pro tempore and wants to skip people on the list?
posted by jason_steakums at 7:05 PM on October 4, 2023

I'd say more that the pro tempore Speaker on the list didn't want the job and says "okay, elect someone else to run this election for Speaker" and then runs that election.
posted by hippybear at 7:13 PM on October 4, 2023

, it hinges on what the "that" in "that end" means.

I'm bewildered that we still, in the 21st century, pass laws with inexact language like that.

It's not a law and the language isn't inexact. The pronoun refers to the phrase "the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore" that appears immediately prior to it in that section; there is no other possible referent. (If you think I am missing something, you can quote what the other possible referent is.)

I suppose if the House doesn't want that particular Speaker pro tempore and wants to skip people on the list?

Either the House doesn't want that person, or that person doesn't want job. I suspect if you were running for Speaker yourself you'd prefer someone else to be running the election, both for the optics and so you can focus on winning.
posted by mark k at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

to the end of acting as Speaker pro tempore

I think that would render the words "to that end" a nullity, and so typically that would not be the interpretation. But I also think sotonohito is correct that it means whatever they let it mean. Maybe next time "precedent" would be somewhat persuasive, but even then only Democrats are bound by custom and precedent.
posted by ctmf at 7:14 PM on October 4, 2023

Ok so:

(3)(A) In the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker, the next Member on the list described in subdivision (B) shall act as Speaker pro tempore until the election of a Speaker or a Speaker pro tempore. Pending such election the Member acting as Speaker pro tempore may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end.

I wish it were easier to diagram sentences without handwritten notes, but let's look at it with the election language excised:

(3)(A) In the case of a vacancy in the Office of Speaker, the next Member on the list described in subdivision (B) shall act as Speaker pro tempore. The Member acting as Speaker pro tempore may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate to that end.

That seems to be pretty straightforward language to me - you get the powers of the Speaker to act in their stead. Now if you think about the election of the next Speaker as a limit on the length of the pro temp's term, with the implication that it is also their primary duty but not necessarily their sole duty (because government may need to function in a crisis) and slot the election language back in in the way they did, I think you can see how it becomes unclear what the determiner "that" in "that end" may be pointing to and how it can change the meaning of the rule, and could benefit from clarity in wording.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:26 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

They have a Speaker Pro Tempore almost every day the House in in Session. The actual Speaker of thr House seldom presides over the session from the big chair. Some member of the majority party gets to sit in the big chair and preside over the session and bang the gavel, etc. The section where this special Speaker Pro Tempore is defined is part of that larger section.
posted by interogative mood at 7:30 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think you can see how it becomes unclear

Eh, yeah I think there's enough ambiguity to provide some plausible deniability and room to argue. But if that's what they meant the period would be after 'appropriate'. The member acting as... may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate. The end.
posted by ctmf at 7:32 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

If Patrick McHenry attempts to go beyond his remit and play real Speaker then there would be a point of order objecting his actions and a vote. Assuming Republicans decided to vote that his action wasn’t breaking the rules then that really isn’t any different than Republicans agreeing to make him speaker; so they probably would just do that.
posted by interogative mood at 7:35 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Well he did already take some action as speaker (not plausibly related to the new speaker election); he kicked Pelosi out of her office.
posted by ctmf at 7:37 PM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

I don't think the "They've ousted McCarthy saying it was because he lied to them" thing necessarily shows that they would oust Trump when he inevitably lies to them.

The former president's failure to stop what, 130? of them from voting to fund the government is a HUGE L. He might not go down the same way as McCarthy but his ability to enforce party discipline to get the job in the first place is as questionable as pretty much anything else.
posted by StarkRoads at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Eh, yeah I think there's enough ambiguity to provide some plausible deniability and room to argue. But if that's what they meant the period would be after 'appropriate'. The member acting as... may exercise such authorities of the Office of Speaker as may be necessary and appropriate. The end.

They definitely could have ended it there and helped clarify things! I'd throw that on the pile of inexact language that makes that section a little unclear. The other bits about other scenarios in which you have a Speaker pro tempore even define limits more clearly - the Speaker can name one for up to three days, unless they'll be indisposed in which case it's ten days, and they can also name one with the approval of the House for a different specified time limit but only for specific duties. It's the language for this one specific circumstance that isn't quite as careful as it should be.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

(If you think I am missing something, you can quote what the other possible referent is.)

Replying to myself because I somehow did miss the suggestion that the referent is something like "the normal powers of the speaker." Sorry.

That seems to be pretty straightforward language to me - you get the powers of the Speaker to act in their stead.

It doesn't say anything at all! That only makes sense if you think start by thinking "Speaker pro tempore" is an office with predefined responsibilities that equal the normal power of the speaker! It isn't.

Look at the preceding three paragraphs. You can appoint someone to fill in for the speaker who gets "the duties of the Chair;" this is crystal clear but also has other limits (appointment method, time). In (2) you can get a Speaker pro tempore by appointment "only to sign enrolled bills and joint resolutions for a specified period of time;" note the limited power. And then in (3) you can get a Speaker pro tempore vacancy; this also only allows the powers in section 3 and has expressly limited ability to exercise authority ("necessary and appropriate to that end.")

That end could (and does) logically and grammatically refer to "election of a Speaker." It can't refer to the role of speaker, which is a "that" and not "that end." If you are arguing it refers to something else you need to point to something else in there, not say it refers to an idea not discussed anywhere else.

And that's enough from me on that; I will now shut up.
posted by mark k at 7:43 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

[Trump] might not go down the same way as McCarthy but his ability to enforce party discipline to get the job in the first place is as questionable as pretty much anything else.

Trump can enforce party discipline with a tweet.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:50 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Even if the "necessary and appropriate to that end" is referring to electing a Speaker, I don't think it's clear that it's a limit. In fact, if I had to say one or the other "is clear", I'd say it's clear that it's not a limit; it's explicitly saying that the Speaker pro tem, in the case where the actual Speakership is vacant, can do this, not that they must do this. As opposed to other situations in which there's a Speaker pro tem (which can be pretty routine, like "the Speaker isn't present right now at this very moment but has designated a Speaker pro tem"), wherein presumably they wouldn't be allowed to use their pro tempore-ness to usurp the sitting Speaker.

House Practice: A Guide to the Rules, Precedents and Procedures of the House (at least for the 115th Congress, i.e. 2017-2019, which is the latest I've been able to find) has a bunch more to say about the Speaker Pro Tempore than the Rules of the House does. It makes a distinction between one who is "designated", "designated and approved", and "elected" Speaker Pro Tem, and also a distinction between the office being vacant or not.

It says in general that:

The Speaker pro tempore, as the occupant of the Chair, exercises many functions that normally fall within the purview of the Speaker. Routine functions that are within the scope of authority of a Speaker pro tempore are calling the House to order, making various announcements, answering parliamentary inquiries, putting the question, counting for a quorum, ruling on points of order, and designating another Speaker pro tempore.

In the case of vacancy, it goes on to specifically say:

When the Office of Speaker is vacant, the Member acting as Speaker pro tempore under rule I section 8(b) may exercise such authorities of the Office as may be necessary and appropriate pending the election of a Speaker or Speaker pro tempore.

That "rule I section 8(b)" is what (part of) was referred to here on MeFi as "the full rule". Note that, again, there's no language specifically indicating that this is a limit (as opposed to a grant of powers that a SPT wouldn't otherwise have).

It does, however, explicitly limit a "designated" SPT more than it does a "designated and approved" or "elected" SPT, in certain ways:

Absent unanimous consent or specific House approval, a designated Speaker pro tempore may not:

Administer the oath of office to a Member-elect.

Announce appointments made by the Speaker pursuant to law.

Appoint conferees or make appointments of additional conferees.

Appoint Members to attend a funeral.

Spread upon the Journal a veto message from the President.

By contrast, an elected Speaker pro tempore may, for example, appoint conferees, administer the oath of office to a Member-elect, and preside at a joint session of Congress.

So, although I'm not a lawyer, and don't know anything more about this than I've read in the past couple days, I really don't see why, if the "necessary and appropriate to that end" really were a limit rather than an additional grant, they wouldn't have been explicit about that limit, too.
posted by Flunkie at 8:00 PM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

That only makes sense if you think start by thinking "Speaker pro tempore" is an office with predefined responsibilities that equal the normal power of the speaker! It isn't.

The concept of a [position] pro tempore is a preexisting thing! It's a thing that is often clearly limited in what it can do in comparison to the real deal, but this is also specifically a case of a rule that came about as part of continuity of government concerns after 9/11 which implies special emergency circumstances! They specifically limit it with clearer language in the other sections in the rules, and I'm saying they weren't as clear here for this one circumstance.

If you don't see the angle of ambiguity there that's fine, but it's not a crazy notion. I'm not even arguing that the Speaker pro tempore does have the powers to do anything other than hold a Speaker election in this circumstance! I'm just saying there's enough ambiguity in the text and context (separate from the even clearer final determiner that has been pointed out which is "they can do what the House lets them do") for there to be a possibility.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:01 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Flunkie, thanks for digging that up, that clears up a lot! Really interesting stuff.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:05 PM on October 4, 2023 [1 favorite]

Well, as with anything in this democracy, and probably any democracy, you can only do what the rules let you do, and the people who make the rules make the rules and can change and warp the rules as they see fit. They can do this through formal rules changes like the much-debated ending of the filibuster in the Senate, or they can do it by fiat, like McConnell's deciding that nine months before a presidential election is too soon for a SCOTUS candidate to be deciding upon but then later deciding that less than a month is fine for the same thing. Rules are only rules if everyone agrees they are rules. The main reason the Harlem Globetrotters win all their games is that they don't agree that the rules apply to them.
posted by hippybear at 8:08 PM on October 4, 2023 [7 favorites]

January's The Rules of the House of Representatives, when House Republicans set up McCarthy and also gutted the independent, bipartisan Office of Congressional Ethics (est. by Pelosi in 2008). There are new House rules under GOP leadership. Here’s a short guide (PBS, Jan. 10, 2023)

Ethics office director in hot seat at House hearing over DUI; Some GOP members question why office is needed, complain of leaks (Roll Call, June 13, 2023) The hearing comes after Democrats and ethics advocacy groups raised concerns in January about the office’s future upon the adoption of a Republican rules package that critics said chipped away at the watchdog’s ability to function. The rules imposed a two-term limit for board members. It required the board to appoint OCE staff, and set their compensation, within 30 days of the House’s adoption of the rules resolution.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:24 PM on October 4, 2023 [2 favorites]

It is related in the sense that as Speaker Pro Tempore he needs space in the Capitol while he organizes things for the Speaker election starting next week and deals with the paperwork of the administrativia related to keeping the lights on. Some work orders and operating expenses have to be approved.
posted by interogative mood at 9:16 PM on October 4, 2023

He gave it to McCarthy, not himself. I mean, I guess there could be some tenuous connection made up after the fact, and it's too petty to bring a point of order about, which would reflexively unite all the Rs.
posted by ctmf at 9:41 PM on October 4, 2023 [3 favorites]

Trump can enforce party discipline with a tweet.

He failed to do so. Straight. Up. Failed. We would be in a shut down right now if he had succeeded.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:53 PM on October 4, 2023 [17 favorites]

Thank you to everyone who has been exploring the arcana of Speaker Pro Tempore. This is genuinely the kind of discussion that drew me to Metafilter in the first place all those ages ago. The whole lot of you rock and please continue!
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:28 AM on October 5, 2023 [13 favorites]

Well, at least late night shows are back, so we can laugh and cry at the same time.

The world is literally burning, and this is what Republicans in Congress are doing?
posted by mumimor at 2:51 AM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

The world is literally burning, and this is what Republicans in Congress are doing?

Republicans are not there to govern. They are there to dismantle. The problem they’ve run into is that a handful of extremists are dismantling the republican party, too.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:09 AM on October 5, 2023 [28 favorites]

As the Republicans try to systematically try to dismantle Matt Gaetz's career by airing all of his dirty laundry, reporters will commit journalistic malpractice by not asking two questions of the Republicans airing it:

1) How long have you known this?
2) Why haven't you previously informed the public of this behavior?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:26 AM on October 5, 2023 [38 favorites]

He failed to do so. Straight. Up. Failed. We would be in a shut down right now if he had succeeded.

And then someone rid him of that troublesome Speaker.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:14 AM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

~He failed to do so. Straight. Up. Failed. We would be in a shut down right now if he had succeeded.

~And then someone rid him of that troublesome Speaker.

And we now careen toward a shutdown.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:45 AM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm kind of in love with the brazenness of asking "why do we even need a House Ethics office?". If they wanted to be ethical they wouldn't be GOP house members. QED
posted by dis_integration at 9:43 AM on October 5, 2023 [12 favorites]

There’s a reason the dog keeps biting the secret service, I’m just saying.
Biden's dog Commander no longer at White House (Oct. 4). WH staffer, not secret service agent, in this last episode: "Commander and Dale Haney, the head groundskeeper at the White House, were playing [...] no skin was broken in an incident that was photographed by a tourist and shared with a news organization, which published the image online." Last year Haney, 71, celebrated his 50th anniversary tending to the 18 acres of White House gardens and grounds.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:34 AM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

We are now in a Stephen King’s Cats Eye type situation and must be on the look out for both the Secret Service and horrible little troll creatures.
posted by Artw at 11:15 AM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

> Back in the era of Tip O'Neill and even for a short era after him, members of the House and Senate used to have dinners and cocktail hours with members of the opposite parties. This is a thing that I hear doesn't happen any more. And this kind of ideological and social segregation is not how actual politics and governing gets done.

the statement above is factually wrong. there's well over a hundred years of prior art within the modern representative republics for politics and government getting done in legislative bodies with tight party discipline. and it gets done at least as well in those bodies as it does in bodies without party discipline.

moreover, parties with party discipline invariably outcompete undisciplined parties — see, for example, how the relatively small irish parliamentary party used party discipline to wield outsized influence in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and how the other parties were forced to institute party discipline to match.

like, one can disagree about the merits or demerits of tip-n-ronnie inter-party chumminess among individual electeds, but "this is not how actual politics and governing gets done" is a sunday debate show cliché that is just plain wrong on a factual level.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 11:35 AM on October 5, 2023 [12 favorites]

The Washington Post and others are reporting that the move to kick Hoyer and Pelosi out of their hideaway offices is McCarthy retaliating by proxy for the failure of any democrats to back him in the speaker vote, even though he didn't ask for them to back him. I assume there is a made up reason and Pelosi and Hoyer can challenge it if they want to but they won't because it is better to take the points.
posted by interogative mood at 12:03 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

If that's all he's got to wield in retaliation it's hilariously weak stuff
posted by jason_steakums at 12:05 PM on October 5, 2023 [7 favorites]

even though he didn't ask for them to back him.

Publicly, or course, this is true. He claims he was promised support by Pelosi. Which like, doesn't matter and world's smallest violin and all that, but he seems legitimately to have thought he was going to get support.

Pelosi and Hoyer could appeal to the parliamentarian but seems Pelosi is (wisely) just happy with the "Good, glad you settled that important problem the Republic was facing, now move on to bigger problems mkay?" barb.

the statement above is factually wrong. there's well over a hundred years of prior art within the modern representative republics for politics and government getting done in legislative bodies with tight party discipline. and it gets done at least as well in those bodies as it does in bodies without party discipline.

One problem is the clash between institutions and norms that evolved with low party discipline now trying to operate as if it were top-down. This sort of no-confidence vote would be par for the course in a lot of countries, but it's not in the US. We lack both tools to actually force backbenchers to toe the line, and the fallback of "We need a new election because the nominal winner can't assemble a coalition." The executive/legislative separation is another challenge.

When I was a kid/college student in the Reagan/Bush era, I was frustrated with the boll weevils and thought a European style strict discipline approach would be a lot better. It's like my one theoretical reform idea that kind of happened and it totally stinks.
posted by mark k at 12:16 PM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

Right, discipline requires an effective whipping system with sanctions such as being expelled from the caucus, loss of privileges, whatever. And some degree of buy-in from participants. That's a system that has evolved in the Westminster tradition and I guess it's still evolving in the US Congress. You don't get all that overnight, it gets figured out over decades.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 1:02 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

And then someone rid him of that troublesome Speaker.

Very few Republicans voted to vacate the chair. It seems very unlikely he's gonna get the far right R + Dems contingent that ousted McCarthy to all vote on the same bill ever again.
posted by StarkRoads at 1:37 PM on October 5, 2023

One problem is the clash between institutions and norms that evolved with low party discipline now trying to operate as if it were top-down. This sort of no-confidence vote would be par for the course in a lot of countries, but it's not in the US. We lack both tools to actually force backbenchers to toe the line, and the fallback of "We need a new election because the nominal winner can't assemble a coalition." The executive/legislative separation is another challenge.

From afar....isn't of the source of those problems the whole primary system? It's hard to expect/enforce party discipline when your ability to present yourself for the party is dependent on the will of a bunch of people loosely/barely involved with the party.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:43 PM on October 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

McCarthy condemned himself with his own words, really. Dems were prepared to vote "present", which would have given McCarthy the win. But then Jeffries played a bunch of clips of McCarthy badmouthing Democrats and that turned the tide against him.

The Pelosi thing is a bit odd because she wasn't even in town for the vote, I don't think. So that's retribution being taken for her actually being supportive because not being present for the vote meant she didn't actively vote against him.
posted by hippybear at 1:48 PM on October 5, 2023 [9 favorites]

Also the Westminster tradition blends executive & legislative in the same chamber, with a usually very less involved house or lords/senate so, all relative to the fact that other countries aren't the USA and have less influence, the Prime Minister usually yields more power than the president.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:48 PM on October 5, 2023

Sure. Truss and Sunak weren't elected by the public.
posted by adept256 at 1:52 PM on October 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

Isn't a major difference with the UK that people vote for a party, not a person, and so the party machinery is choosing the Prime Minister, and they are voted into office by being the leader of the party who has the majority and not by being voted for directly? Or do I have that incorrect in my mind?

Similarly to the USA, party affiliation will be the decisive factor for most people when choosing for whom to vote, but you vote for a person.

You vote for an MP (member of parliament) most of which are affiliated with a party, the party has assemblies to select the who they'll present in each riding, usually you need to be a party member to participate in those assemblies.

Usually the leader of the party will be elected (he gets to choose a safe riding), and the leader of the party with a majority of MPs gets to form the government and becomes prime minister. The leader of the party is also chosen by party members, in a process that is similar to party conventions in the US, but without the whole primaries dragging on for a year.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 1:55 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

And if a sitting prime minister resigns (which is usually a rare thing, usually....) the party chooses the next leader which becomes prime minister.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 2:08 PM on October 5, 2023

Which is why British politics are a similarly hellish landscape at present. The angry scarlet masses are furious that they got Sunak instead of a howling xenophobe of their choice, the non-Tories are furious that Tory PMs have a measurable half-life and yet a general election won't be called any time soon to let someone else have a run at it, and Liz Truss is making louder noises about how she was right all along with her economy-mulching ideology.
posted by delfin at 2:18 PM on October 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

No they have a speaker too. He's the guy you hear bellowing OOOORRRDAAH.
posted by adept256 at 2:42 PM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

McCarthy: He's the guy you hear bellowing OOOORRRDAAH.
posted by hippybear at 2:45 PM on October 5, 2023

More like ORDER UP at whatever greasy diner will hire him.
posted by adept256 at 2:49 PM on October 5, 2023

So the equivalent of McCarthy in UK politics would be, um... the parliamentary party leader that isn't the Prime Minister? Which would more translate to party whip in US terms but functionally is different?

There really isn't an equivalent role; separation of powers means the US Speaker of the House is a major, independent political position. They are leader of the majority party in a legislative chamber. Legislation must originate with Congress in the US system, for example, and some is limited strictly to the House.

UK Prime Minister kind of combines executive and Speaker in that sense, but very imprecisely (e.g., major differences in the parliamentary procedure roles of Speaker and Prime Minister IIUC.)
posted by mark k at 3:22 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

we don't use the westminster system, yes
it is possible to have strong party discipline in washington-style systems
as in westminster systems, parties with strong party discipline within washington systems can steamroll undisciplined parties
as such, if there is one party within a legislature with strong discipline — regardless of which system is being used! — all parties within that legislature must adopt strong discipline or die
starting with the gingrich reaction, the republicans have gradually remade themselves into a strong discipline party insofar as is possible under washington rules wherein formal expulsions of rogue members is rare
(the existence of the republican child molester hastert rule is indicative of that)
the democrats in the house have finally responded by adopting strong party discipline insofar as is possible under washington rules wherein formal expulsions of rogue members is rare and insofar as is possible in a situation where the margins between parties are very tight
(the democrats' newfound status as a well-disciplined party is attested to by the umpteen million lockstep votes for jeffries as speaker last time around)
by maintaining lockstep discipline, the democrats in the house have set up a situation wherein the formerly lockstep discipline maintained by the republican party has been splintered by rogue factions within that party
you love to see it.

posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 5:11 PM on October 5, 2023 [10 favorites]

Well, I dunno, StarkRoads; if your argument is that Trump is DOA for future influence in the Republican Party... more power to you, I guess; I hope you're right. If it's something less absolute than that, though, I really am having a hard time understanding why you're pressing so hard against the idea that McCarthy has never even come close to the level of bullying power that Trump has... even if Trump has less than he once did.

Anyway, thinking on this general topic a bit more last night, it occurred to me: What a horrible Speaker of the House Trump would be! I mean, of course he'd be horrible in the sense of being a horrible person and having horrible policies (to the degree he even has consistent policies in the first place), but even beyond that, he'd be horrible at the pro forma baseline of the job.

It's not like the Presidency, where "sitting around and rambling and/or yelling at people" is in and of itself inconsistent with the job. Can you imagine Trump in charge of parliamentary procedures? He wouldn't even have much of a basic grasp on them at all, nor any desire to follow them if he did. He would wind up just constantly yelling at members to shut up so that he can talk about how some C-list celebrity who wrote a mean tweet about him eight years ago needs to have his citizenship stripped.
posted by Flunkie at 5:29 PM on October 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

On preview-but-didn't-notice-until-after-the-edit-window:

It's not like the Presidency, where "sitting around and rambling and/or yelling at people" is ***not*** in and of itself inconsistent with the job.
posted by Flunkie at 5:37 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

The Bully Pulpit indeed.
posted by riverlife at 6:13 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]

I might be wrong, but I think it's pretty easy to pick out the fake smiles in photos of people who are uncomfortable smiling on demand. I don't get that vibe from Gaetz's at all. Rather, I see the smile of a fundamentally cruel person facing no consequences for their naked cruelty.
posted by Flunkie

He is openly daring the world to stop him indulging his terminal adolescent lust to transgress, the world having failed utterly to do so thus far.

I would like to a journalist ask House Repubs on camera if they would leave their 13yo daughter alone with Gaetz for a day. See who actually answers, and who just walks away.
posted by Pouteria at 6:49 PM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

I really am having a hard time understanding why you're pressing so hard against the idea that McCarthy has never even come close to the level of bullying power that Trump has... even if Trump has less than he once did.

I totally agree that McCarthy clearly doesn't have the same juice as the former president. There was contention upthread was that no R would cross him under any circumstances, this does not appear to be so, when they want something else more.
posted by StarkRoads at 7:20 PM on October 5, 2023 [1 favorite]

That Viking insurrectionist guy could become Speaker, right? He's familiar with the building.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:30 PM on October 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

Currently in prison if I've got my insurrectionists straight.
posted by Mitheral at 8:20 PM on October 5, 2023

There was contention upthread was that no R would cross him under any circumstances, this does not appear to be so, when they want something else more.

If he was Speaker, and they would have to cross him to his face, they wouldn't.

Remember what Mittens told The Atlantic:

When one senator, a member of leadership, said he was leaning toward voting to convict, the others urged him to reconsider. You can’t do that, Romney recalled someone saying. Think of your personal safety, said another. Think of your children. The senator eventually decided they were right.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:54 PM on October 5, 2023 [5 favorites]

Currently in prison if I've got my insurrectionists straight.

Nope.
posted by Pendragon at 9:49 PM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

If he was Speaker, and they would have to cross him to his face, they wouldn't.

As of today, he's endorsing Jordan. At this point I believe I will worry about the fantasy scenario of him assuming the role himself another time. Thanks for the discussion.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:14 PM on October 5, 2023 [3 favorites]

welp, i suppose if you're a pedophile-loving Nazi, it doesn't hurt to get endorsed by a mass murderer acting on behalf of the Russian mafia
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:32 PM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]

even though he didn't ask for them to back him.

Publicly, or course, this is true. He claims he was promised support by Pelosi. Which like, doesn't matter and world's smallest violin and all that, but he seems legitimately to have thought he was going to get support.

I think we also need to remember that McCarthy is, by all accounts, not that smart. Reducing the bar for a motion to vacate from five members to one, and then assuming that Pelosi, with whom he's never had a good relationship, would bail him out? That's not even a tactical error, that's just dumb. And throw in the unnecessary badmouthing of the democrats right after they saved his CR, none of this looks like the work of someone who knows what he's doing.
posted by Karmeliet at 12:32 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]

Nope.

Damn, only 18 months out of a 41 month sentence? I thought the Feds make you serve 85%?
posted by ryanrs at 12:35 AM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

He (the QAnon Shaman, I mean) also made anyone who thought his original sentence was a bit harsh regret it by almost immediately jumping on to the current wave of right wing grifting and doing things like going on InfoWars, starting a podcast and of course, merch merch merch.
posted by LostInUbe at 3:28 AM on October 6, 2023 [6 favorites]

It would be both depressing and entirely on brand for the Republicans to put Jim Jordan in as Speaker. They're constantly pushing envelopes and working to overturn past norms and get revenge for any Republican who was ever forced out of anything due to bad action.

Putting Jordan in as Speaker would be revenge against the world for being so mean and Commie that Hastert had to resign after he was revealed to be an actual pedophile.
posted by sotonohito at 8:02 AM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jim Jordan is at the very least pedophile adjacent given his past work as an assistant wrestling coach during a major sex abuse scandal at Ohio State.
posted by interogative mood at 10:02 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

They don’t call him “Gym” Jordan for nothing.
posted by Artw at 10:05 AM on October 6, 2023 [7 favorites]

McCarthy is talking about resigning after the new speaker is elected. It would he pretty funny if Democrats some how managed to win his seat in a special election.
posted by interogative mood at 1:26 PM on October 6, 2023 [9 favorites]

Jordan is one of the two GOP reps forwarded by McCarthy (out of 5) to the 1/6 commission that Pelosi rebuffed
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 1:34 PM on October 6, 2023

‘What Is Broken in American Politics Is the Republican Party’
Fourteen experts on the roots of Kevin McCarthy’s ouster and why Republicans keep destroying their own leaders.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on October 6, 2023

Uh... is anyone else a little weirded out that a former president and at least semi-plausible candidate for Speaker of the House blabbing out nuclear secrets DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE FRONT PAGE NEWS?
posted by kyrademon at 2:25 PM on October 6, 2023 [12 favorites]

During an online fundraiser, Matt Gaetz denounced the Biden impeachment effort as unserious, according to a video obtained by NBC News. At an invitation-only fundraiser held over Zoom last week, Gaetz, R-Fla., and [Rep. Matt] Rosendale [R-MT-02; a fellow Freedom Caucus member], who is said to be plotting another Senate run next year, heaped skepticism on the probe.

“I don’t believe that we are endeavoring upon a legitimate impeachment of Joe Biden,” Gaetz told Steve Bannon, a podcaster and onetime political adviser to former President Donald Trump, who was moderating the discussion. “They’re trying to engage in a, like, ‘forever war’ of impeachment,” Gaetz said. “And like many of our forever wars, it will drag on forever and end in a bloody draw.”

As they fielded questions from high-dollar conservative donors, Gaetz and Rosendale were just days away from moving to end McCarthy’s speakership — and tipping the Republican caucus into its own protracted battle over who will lead the conference.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:32 PM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]

blabbing out nuclear secrets

Eh, unless there was more (and there undoubtedly was, but we already suspect that), those "nuclear secrets" are kind of weak sauce. How close we can get to an enemy sub without being detected? There is no such number. It entirely depends on the capability of the other sub, how trained and alert they are, how skilled and disciplined our sub is, all kinds of things. I mean, there have been actual collisions before, so in some sense that number is "infinitely close".
posted by ctmf at 3:04 PM on October 6, 2023

If he was backing up his braggadocio with actual tech specs and engineering details of our sub, that would be a lot more concerning.
posted by ctmf at 3:11 PM on October 6, 2023

BRB just asking if the specs are accurate on War Thunder.
posted by Artw at 3:19 PM on October 6, 2023 [5 favorites]

*tries to imagine Barack Obama bragging aloud to someone about exactly how many nuclear missiles US subs carry and everyone just kind of shrugging and going, "eh, who knows if that even matters?"*

*fails to imagine this*
posted by kyrademon at 3:23 PM on October 6, 2023 [23 favorites]

TFG: So how close can our current fast attack subs get to another sub undetected? Asking for a handl...err presidential plan.
DoD: Thirty ligmas sir.
posted by cmfletcher at 3:27 PM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]

Some moments are downright weird with the Republican infighting, Gaetz actually made a good criticism of the impeachment stuff instead of "condemning" it because it doesn't throw even crazier nonsense at the wall to see what sticks like I expected.

I mean I don't buy that he's serious in that criticism, but it's wild that he is basically criticizing the entire Benghazi game his party plays, a game that his own faction in the party plays the hardest, to raise funds from the party faithful.
posted by jason_steakums at 4:23 PM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]

Uh... is anyone else a little weirded out that a former president and at least semi-plausible candidate for Speaker of the House blabbing out nuclear secrets DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE FRONT PAGE NEWS?

To be fair, Trump murdered at least 1.1M people by how he responded to a pandemic. If that couldn't put him in prison, sharing nuclear secrets with a foreign principal probably isn't going to do much, at this juncture. His defenders would argue the foreign principal is exempt, even when he is standing next to the foreign country's head of state in a picture with Trump. So it goes.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:35 PM on October 6, 2023 [8 favorites]

There are those who think that Matt Gaetz is a trance-babbling idiot. He is not. There have been and are trance-babbling idiots in Congress, certainly; Paul Gosar by reason of physical and mental deterioration, Marsha Blackburn in the Senate, Louie Gohmert reigning as Idiot Emeritus of the House until the day that he dies. We can all name a handful of people who shouldn't be out in public, much less at the Capitol, without trusted handlers.

Gaetz is, instead, a Jim Jordan type. He has maxed out his Shameless stat rather than his Stupid stat. He has no principles to speak of; instead, he works out what the best thing to say or do will be to extract money and support from the bottom-feeding talk radio/social media base, and does it in the name of personal gain. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Exhibit A was the Speaker fight at the beginning of the Congressional term; Gaetz was adamant that he would never, ever, ever, under any circumstances cave in and vote for Kevin McCarthy -- until the moment that he had caused suitable humiliation for McCarthy AND extracted a Committee seat of his liking. Exhibit B is McCarthy's ouster; he did the calculus, found the numbers to his liking, and struck. Both circuses made the Republican House seem like a bunch of yammering yahoos that couldn't work out how to manage an ice cream truck for a day, but Gaetz cares neither about his party nor the institution. It's all about his personal brand.

Does he believe more than one out of ten words that comes out of his mouth? Probably not. But he can recognize when something is simply windmill-tilting, at least.
posted by delfin at 4:51 PM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

McCarthy denies reports he’s leaving Congress [CNN Lite]

who knows what is real anymore but i'd like to imagine that the earlier rumors were disinfo seeds planted by McCarthy's (Republican) enemies to flood the zone and fuck with his head
posted by glonous keming at 6:42 PM on October 6, 2023

Gaetz actually made a good criticism of the impeachment stuff instead of "condemning" it because it doesn't throw even crazier nonsense at the wall to see what sticks like I expected.

If you read a bit further in the linked article, I think he is actually condemning it because it doesn't go far enough:

But, he added, according to the recording, “if this was serious, we would have sent a subpoena to Hunter Biden.”

Asked about his remarks, Gaetz told NBC News: “Kevin wasn’t serious. Jim Jordan is.” (Jordan, of course, being one of the major players in the "investigation" of Hunter Biden & the impeachment inquiry.)

(whether Gaetz truly believes there's real evidence of wrong-doing that could be found if McCarthy & friends hadn't been soft-pedaling things, or if he's just spouting bullshit he knows is bullshit to raise funding from rich paranoid white supremacists is TBD.)
posted by soundguy99 at 7:08 PM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]

Uh... is anyone else a little weirded out that a former president and at least semi-plausible candidate for Speaker of the House blabbing out nuclear secrets DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE FRONT PAGE NEWS?

We expect this kind of shit in the 2020's + Trump. It's any random Tuesday to us now to hear something like this, and absolutely nothing will come of it, so it doesn't matter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:26 PM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]

Maybe I'm just hopelessly naive and/or optimistic, but given that this information came to us as a result of having been investigated by the Special Counsel, I'm not quite ready to give up entirely on the idea that something may come of it.
posted by Flunkie at 7:39 PM on October 6, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm pretty sure no matter what the public buzz about these nuclear submarine secrets being shared might be, Jack Smith is paying very close attention and if there's a point where this can help his case in prosecuting Trump for these matters, he will use it.
posted by hippybear at 7:49 PM on October 6, 2023 [4 favorites]

Despite Trump's endorsement, I don't think Jordan is viable as a candidate for Speaker. I still think it'll be Scalise. Not that he's better —one's a shit sandwich and the other a pus milkshake.

It's nice to imagine that somehow a moderate would prevail, but that's not going to happen. It's going to be someone to McCarthy's right, it's inevitable. I worry about Ukraine funding, but otherwise it's hard for me to imagine the House GOP could be any further to the right in practice than they've already been.

Indeed, an unhinged Speaker will just mean that the public will see the real face of the House GOP. In this sense, and for other practical reasons, Jordan might be the best candidate. You know, from our perspective. He could be a disaster for the GOP. That's why I think he'll never get enough votes when the time comes. The Freedom Caucus doesn't want to visibly govern, anyway. Having a patsy figurehead under their thumb is what they want. But good luck finding another one at this point. So it's going to be someone from the hard right, but more publicly palatable. Scalise wasn't that person and he really isn't now, but his being shot and his cancer has whitewashed his image a bit and he just needs to show a more pleasing face than Jordan, which isn't difficult, and not be a pedophile enabler, which for the House GOP is apparently somewhat more difficult, but not impossible.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:07 AM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

House GOP lawmakers shrug off Trump's speaker endorsement (Axios), in which a bunch of Reps say literally everything from 'It likely hurts more than it helps' to 'I think it creates a net gain.'

If I have one takeaway, it's that actual Republican House members, even off the record, don't have any better sense of how this plays out than I do.
posted by box at 4:44 AM on October 7, 2023

If he was backing up his braggadocio with actual tech specs and engineering details of our sub, that would be a lot more concerning.

I mean, he did have boxes and boxes of top-secret papers, so who knows what he blabbed exactly? A trained ear can divine a whole lot of detail from what, to our ears, sounds like babbling and braggadocio.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:13 AM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's nice to imagine that somehow a moderate would prevail, but that's not going to happen.

Agreed - pretty sure the GOP is not going to select a Democrat.
posted by Flunkie at 10:50 AM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]

Heh. Yeah, I meant "moderate" in a narrowly relative sense.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 11:49 AM on October 7, 2023

Most House Republicans recognize that the kind of shutdown / burn it down politics that is red meat for their base, but in reality becomes quickly unpopular when it happens. Look at what happened with Dobbs ending Roe. They wanted to campaign on overturning Roe, not actually live with the messy consequences of overturning it. They want to campaign on drowning the government, but they want to govern when they win the election.
posted by interogative mood at 4:52 PM on October 7, 2023 [1 favorite]

Though you’ll note that when they can do it, they go ahead and do it.
posted by Artw at 5:00 PM on October 7, 2023 [2 favorites]

pretty sure the GOP is not going to select a Democrat.

And yet we don't get dozens of think pieces blaming them for not doing that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:27 PM on October 7, 2023 [11 favorites]

Maybe it's time for those dozens of think pieces to be written. Blame Republicans for being incapable of running government, tell them point blank they are inept and need to hand over control to a Democrat who can lead the House into an era where they actually pass things and don't just argue.

Let's get them written and published and spread far and wide.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on October 7, 2023 [6 favorites]

Most House Republicans recognize that the kind of shutdown / burn it down politics that is red meat for their base, but in reality becomes quickly unpopular when it happens.

do they? they don’t care about electoral consequences because they don’t plan to abide by the results of any election that they lose. it’s a mistake to think of them as electioneering. they’re not interested in democracy, they want christian dominion. they didn’t want abortion as an issue to campaign on they wanted to abolish abortion because they want to establish a patriarchal state. they don’t run on trans panic because they think it plays, they experience transphobia and want to act on it. they actually want to silence and kill their opponents. they’re brownshirts, not cynical career politicians
posted by dis_integration at 9:29 PM on October 7, 2023 [9 favorites]

"Most house Republicans" are just ambitious people who have bought into the Just World Fallacy a little too hard, I think. But the realities of coalition politics force them to share a party with the brownshirts and the christian dominionists. They are unable to hold onto power if they expel those people from their coalition, and unwilling/afraid/too deeply in denial to give up power.

I think it's an important distinction because 1) most of them really aren't in favor of shut downs/burn it all down stuff, they're just willing to humor the people who are to a certain extent in order to keep them in the coalition/hold onto power 2) they will humor those people right up until the moment when humoring them threatens their grip on power more than opposing them does. That's why we still have hope and should not just give up in despair.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:49 AM on October 8, 2023 [4 favorites]

Unfortunately also 3) is if they see an angle where they think they can get more power by giving the dominionists and brownshirts more power they're very eager to try riding that tiger, and 4) they have a lot less control than they think they do, both of which make the distinction a lot less clear because the outcomes are the same. I do think that wing of the party is in this place right now where they know they got burned trying that with Trump and they know they need to ditch him and his die-hards, but at the same time they think they're sly enough to do it in a controlled way the Trump base will not punish them for by dragging it out and making the right noises, but that brings us back to 4.

I am very much team hope over team despair, it's just that we're still in this period where it does take some effort to be hopeful sometimes
posted by jason_steakums at 8:05 AM on October 8, 2023 [6 favorites]

BBC: Steve Scalise is the Republican pick for speaker of the House (live feed)

Steve Scalise is the Republican pick for speaker of the House, but the narrowness of his victory – 113-99 – highlights the divisions within the party in Congress lower chamber…

Now he has to make sure at least 217 of the 221 Republicans back him when the full House convenes to vote on speaker. The narrowness of the Republican majority was former speaker Kevin McCarthy’s undoing. Scalise will have to demonstrate a political deftness if he wants to avoid a similar fate.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:31 AM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

They are going to have to implement some old fashioned party voting rules -- once the party members pick the speaker nominee you have to vote for that candidate or you are cut off and suspended from the party. If you want to oust the Speaker first you need 50% of the party to agree with you before you call for a vote.
posted by interogative mood at 10:42 AM on October 11, 2023

"Scalise will have to demonstrate a political deftness if he wants to avoid a similar fate."

Narrator: "He didn't."
posted by jason_steakums at 10:45 AM on October 11, 2023 [8 favorites]

Any odds being placed yet on how many rounds the election will go this time? It isn't like a single Democrat is going to vote for Scalise, so either they're going to need some pretty strong whipping to keep them in line or else this is going to become an even bigger shit show.
posted by hippybear at 11:48 AM on October 11, 2023 [2 favorites]

his victory – 113-99

as described elsewhere on the internet: “congrats to ebola for beating the bubonic plague today”

For emphasis: Jim Jordan received 99 votes for Speaker of the House. Gym Fucking Jordan.
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:30 PM on October 11, 2023 [6 favorites]

AP: As Republicans split over who will be House speaker, McCarthy positions himself as a de facto leader

Oh Kevin, we all have big dreams
posted by jason_steakums at 12:32 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

My tips for excellent popcorn:

Use a large pot, you want to give the popcorn room to expand and let moisture escape.

Use a splatter screen [1] instead of the pot lid, again you want to let the water vapor escape not get it trapped with the popcorn.

A brown paper grocery bag is the absolute best tool for post-popping goodness.

Once the corn is popped dump it into the brown paper bag, add some popcorn salt, and shake the bag up and down to distribute the salt over the corn. This will also help the paper absorb any extra oil and make the popcorn taste less greasy.

For my money the best addons are a black pepper, thyme, and some parmesian. Make sure to grid the thyme as fine as you can before putting it in and tossing with the other toppings.

Put your feet up and munch while you watch the Republicans tear each other to pieces, the only thing better than thyme on popcorn is schadenfreude.

[1] One of those bits of mesh in a big hoop that you can put over a skillet to keep grease from popping up while you fry things.
posted by sotonohito at 12:33 PM on October 11, 2023 [10 favorites]

Great advice, sotonohito, thanks for that. I prefer my popcorn plain, with just salt, but I'll be out looking for paper bags tomorrow.
posted by mumimor at 12:35 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

A wok is really the perfect popping vessel! Another fantastic addition for seasonings is nutritional yeast, finely ground, to give it a cheese flavor. Also don't sleep on Brian David Gilbert's pepcorn recipe using chili crisp
posted by jason_steakums at 12:41 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

The Guardian live feed is saying that reliable sources have Jordan & Gaetz voting for Scalise, with Jordan pressuring his supporters to do the same. Other hardliners are keeping mum, and Scalise can only lose 4 Republican votes. Apparently the full House vote won't happen today.

Maybe they learned something from the 15 round McCarthy debacle, maybe not.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:00 PM on October 11, 2023

once the party members pick the speaker nominee you have to vote for that candidate or you are cut off and suspended from the party. If you want to oust the Speaker first you need 50% of the party to agree with you before you call for a vote.

The problem with that is the same problem the Democrats have with disciplining Manchin or Sinema. It sounds good on paper, but with only five votes needed to tip the majority it's an idle threat. Any one member and his/her poker buddies can upend any plan.

This is what happened with McCarthy--he didn't wan't to subject himself to the single-member-recall-vote rule, and most Republicans didn't want that either, but a handful of holdouts were blocking his election and that was the compromise he needed to cobble together even a short lived majority.
posted by mark k at 1:55 PM on October 11, 2023 [1 favorite]

The House is in recess with no vote (WaPo).

Dusty Johnson (R-SD, his real name is Dustin, and not, like, Halliburton Johnson Koch IV like I thought it would be) says "I think there are a lot of similarities to January."
posted by box at 3:55 PM on October 11, 2023 [3 favorites]

Ahem. That's Halliburton Dusterfordminton Johnson Koch IV to you.
posted by Flunkie at 5:03 PM on October 11, 2023 [4 favorites]

the narrowness of his victory – 113-99

How dies this map onto the vote for the continuing resolution?

I would suppose the chaos MAGAs voted Jordan...
posted by eustatic at 2:09 AM on October 12, 2023

Or didn't vote at all
posted by eustatic at 2:17 AM on October 12, 2023

The former president endorsing a candidate for speaker and not getting the votes is another highly embarrassing failure on his part. He can gain influence, but he has demonstrably lost it for the time being.
posted by StarkRoads at 7:43 AM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

They just held another short administrative session with the prayer, pledge of allegiance, approval of the journal and then immediately recessed again. Not sure if they will vote today. The Republican power brokers of Americans to Tax Reform is running ads on DC news radio attacking some of the holdouts like Gaetz. These ads sound like they are also being run in the districts of the holdouts, although perhaps that’s just the impression they are supposed to give.
posted by interogative mood at 9:13 AM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

Well at least they got a prayer in, that means an AR-15 got its wings.
posted by Artw at 9:22 AM on October 12, 2023 [10 favorites]

MSNBC reporting that Scalise has withdrawn his name...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:57 PM on October 12, 2023 [2 favorites]

Tomorrow is Gym Day then.
posted by Artw at 4:59 PM on October 12, 2023

NPR: Scalise drops out of race for Speaker of the House, leaving Congress in limbo

"I was very clear we have to have everybody put their agendas on the side and focus on what this country needs," Scalise told reporters in the Capitol. "This country is counting on us to come back to this house of representatives needs a speaker and we need to open up the house again."

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:13 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

lolololol
posted by Flunkie at 5:31 PM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

black smoke over the capitol, lmao
posted by ryanrs at 5:31 PM on October 12, 2023 [1 favorite]

Hahahaha we are doomed.
posted by interogative mood at 5:40 PM on October 12, 2023

It seems like in a sane world someone like Dan Newhouse, who voted to impeach Trump and seems to have otherwise moderate views as a Republican, might be willing to declare he'd throw out the Hastert rule, bring a authentic compromise budget to the floor, and get enough bipartisan support to sideline the MAGA extremists.
posted by Reverend John at 8:26 PM on October 12, 2023

In a sane world some 'responsible Republicans' would vote for Jeffries.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:36 PM on October 12, 2023 [4 favorites]

In a sane world we wouldn't even be in this situation in the first place, as the Republican Party would not exist in anything even remotely resembling its current form.
posted by Flunkie at 8:40 PM on October 12, 2023 [18 favorites]

No Democrat with an ounce of sanity would vote to support ANY Republican speaker candidate, no matter how "moderate." (Moderate Republicans don't exist. The cake is a lie.)
posted by rikschell at 5:29 AM on October 13, 2023 [5 favorites]

No Democrat with an ounce of sanity would vote to support ANY Republican speaker candidate, no matter how "moderate." (Moderate Republicans don't exist. The cake is a lie.)

Sad but true. After decades of ideological purging, the modern Republican Party has removed anyone who could be trusted to make a deal to put the interests of the country first. Democrats need to hold the line on that, not play Charlie Brown chasing the bipartisan football yet again.
posted by adamsc at 10:15 AM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

Any Republican who accepted any Democratic support would shed about 90% of their own caucus' support instantly. This too was part of McCarthy's problem: He needed Democratic support but couldn't even make a quiet under the table deal.

I actually think as a hypothetical that the outcome of a (now de facto ex-)Republican propped up by 200 Democratic votes and two dozen Republicans would avoid shutdowns, impeachment theatrics and aid-to-Ukraine shut offs for the next year and would be a fine compromise.

Not that I see a path to get there. Under what conditions would even a couple dozen Republicans break with the party. Maybe if the Republicans continue speakerless for months? Combined with some new crisis and cratering poll numbers?
posted by mark k at 11:56 AM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

They don't need a couple of dozen, they need what 5 to vote for Jeffries? There have got to be 5 Republicans who are tired of all this shit or who are already retiring after this session that would be happy to actually retire or take a job at CNN after this is all over? Cause yah the careers of those 5 would be done in politics or the after politics right wing welfare system...
posted by cirhosis at 12:06 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Axios reports that reps are theoretically more open to a bipartisan solution.

But "bipartisan solution" is being used in that article, and apparently by everyone in the House, to mean "Democrats vote for a Republican". The idea that bipartisanship might involve the REPUBLICANS taking a loss for a change is, of course, unthinkable.

It is, as always, incumbant on the Democrats to hurt themselves so the Republicans can win. Even the list of supposed "demands" from the Democrats is weak sauce. Bullshit about rules changes, not a thing about the Republicans admitting they can't govern and giving power to the Party who can.

The most likely outcome is 5 of the most right wing House Democrats peeling off to vote for some slimy Republican and the Democrats getting nothing at all out of it.
posted by sotonohito at 12:07 PM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

"getting nothing at all out of it."

To me this sounds like "We have the whole COUNTRY hostage. We have to be able to get SOME kind of ransom."

We don't need to "get anything out of" averting catastrophe, beyond not plunging the country into catastrophe.

Now, are we there yet? No, but when we get to week three of a government shutdown because Repubicans STILL can't elect a speaker on their own, I need the Democrats to put country before party, even if the Republicans won't.
posted by OnceUponATime at 12:38 PM on October 13, 2023 [2 favorites]

I thought we weren't supposed to negotiate with terrorists.
posted by MtDewd at 12:42 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

I thought we weren't supposed to negotiate with terrorists.

Apparently we're just supposed to surrender to them.
posted by notoriety public at 1:01 PM on October 13, 2023

This whole stupid situation is happening because some Republicans want to punish other Republicans for working with Democrats even just a little.
posted by ryanrs at 1:05 PM on October 13, 2023 [3 favorites]

The problem with the hostage analogy is after they get what they want they would shoot the hostage anyway.
posted by Artw at 1:05 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

"What are your demands?"

"More hostages."
posted by notoriety public at 1:16 PM on October 13, 2023 [9 favorites]

All right, all right, fine, I am willing to be Speaker of the House.

I encourage the Republican Party to take this offer on face, rather than, say, investigating my posting history first.
posted by Flunkie at 1:20 PM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

Looks like they are going to let Jordan try to find 217 votes and he fails it will be Scott.
posted by interogative mood at 1:23 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Gym Jordan
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

WaPo live coverage:

Though Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) clinched the majority to become speaker-designate, it remains unclear if he has the 217 votes to actually wield the gavel. What isn’t helping him in terms of garnering support is how his allies have behaved. According to two people familiar, Jordan allies threatened vulnerable Republicans who represent the district President Biden won in 2020, telling them that if they don’t vote for the Judiciary chairman behind closed doors, they will get primaried in their elections. The threat was a huge turn off for some moderates who vowed never to support him.

posted by box at 1:32 PM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

Artw, I think at this point enabling/being sex pests is a necessary qualification for GOP speaker...
posted by Xoder at 1:32 PM on October 13, 2023 [1 favorite]

Jim Jordan has denied he knew about sex abuse on Ohio State wrestling team. Here’s who says he knew, and who says he didn’t

Obviously they are going to need some clarity on this so they know he isn’t just stealing creep valor.
posted by Artw at 2:03 PM on October 13, 2023 [4 favorites]

I mean, he's certainly an insurrectionist and election denier and his victory would be a huge loss for democracy.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:33 PM on October 13, 2023

The one out where I see that not happening is basically a monkey paw move where dems and republicans come together but it’s to do something utterly horrible.
posted by Artw at 5:55 PM on October 13, 2023

Jordan defeated Rep. Austin Scott of Georgia in a secret ballot election Friday. The vote tally has not been released.

I've lived in Georgia the entire 12 years that Austin Scott has been serving in the House, and I still had to Wikipedia him.

On January 7, 2021, Scott did not object to the Electoral College certification in the House of Representatives.[48] On January 5, 2021, he joined several Republican colleagues in sending a letter to Congressional leadership stating that members of Congress did not have the authority to object to Electoral College votes sent to them by each state absent an investigation from a state legislature or a conflicting slate of electors.[49]

Scott condemned the violence at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021.[49]

Scott attended President Joe Biden's inauguration on January 20, 2021.[citation needed]

Please could we have him? At this point, I would settle for a Republican who at least mildly believes in his oath to the Constitution, even though I agree with none of his political positions.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:59 PM on October 13, 2023 [7 favorites]

Someone I follow on Mastodon is getting "Vote For People Who Want To Live In A Democracy" yard signs made and I'm considering getting some.
posted by hippybear at 6:02 PM on October 13, 2023 [12 favorites]

What does it say about a party’s respect for democracy when they won’t even accept a the winner of an election by the majority of their own?
posted by interogative mood at 4:11 PM on October 14, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jordan activates right-wing pressure campaign in push to win speakership
posted by Artw at 4:27 PM on October 14, 2023

In some kind of weird Hollywood moment, there should be a vote wherein all the Dems are voting Jeffires like normal and then suddenly one early-in-the-alphabet more-sane-than-others Republican votes Jeffires, and then another votes, and then another, and suddenly it's an avalanche and it ends up being like 400 for Jeffries and the music swells and there are tears and cheers and hugs all around while the uncool kids are left out sulking and muttering.

But then you have The Next Day, and it's a question of how to get things done from there?
posted by hippybear at 4:35 PM on October 14, 2023 [4 favorites]

"How much do I have to threaten and bully you assholes before you elect me to be your boss?"
posted by ryanrs at 4:46 PM on October 14, 2023 [11 favorites]

OnceUponATime

Why is it always, ALWAYS, the Democrats who must yield, who must surrender, who must compromise, who must give up everything to get nothing more than a government that fulfills its most basic function?

When did that become something we the people had to make major and significant sacrifices and concessions to get? We give up Social Security, and food stamps, and school funding, and in exchange the extreme far right gets 100% of what they want and deigns to give us a government for 45 more days before the next round of extortion begins.

At some point you have to say no.

They have the fucking majority. They lied, cheated, gerrymandered, and stole elections to get that majority. They used every dirty trick, suppressed the maximum possible number of voters, and abused America in every imaginable way to get that majority.

So why is it OUR job to help them fuck us over by empowering them with a Speaker when their own evil has made it impossible for them to elect a speaker of their own?

No. Just no.

Its better to get this done with and let the Republicans fuck up so badly so long that they finally have to give US something than it is to make another stupid short term deal that gets us nothing but 45 days before the next time the Republicans make more demands. And then another 45 days. And another after that.

At this rate if the Democrats keep capitulating they'll cut so much every 45 days that there's nothing left of the government at all but the military. Every time we save them what we get is a "budget" that cuts more essential services. Fuck that shit.

If they can't vote in a speaker for themselves they should get no support from the Democrats at all. Let America watch the Republicans flounder and fail. Let America witness the total inability of Republicans to get anything at all done. Let the Republican voters feel shame for being such assholes they voted for a party so radical and devoted to ruining America they can't even work together for the simplest, most basic, thing a Party with a majority does.

Let the Republicans fail, though the heavens fall.
posted by sotonohito at 10:03 AM on October 15, 2023 [15 favorites]

This process in the House is how the Republican Party learns that it's not a unified, coherent political party at all. Really, they are a conservative minority party in coalition with an insane populist movement. This has been pretty obvious to most of us for quite a while, but now the R leadership is learning it for real.

This party fracture can only happen when the Republicans have a very narrow majority. They must have power to fight over, but their majority must be tenuous enough that the infighting paralyzes them.

I feel like this needs to happen, but that the process will be very painful for the country and the people living in it. This is probably just one of a number of disastrous national showdowns that will take place as the Republicans self-destruct.
posted by ryanrs at 12:58 PM on October 15, 2023 [6 favorites]

The most likely outcome is 5 of the most right wing House Democrats peeling off to vote for some slimy Republican and the Democrats getting nothing at all out of it.

Well, maybe, but you predicted the same outcome on the motion to vacate, and yet the Democrats held together after all.

I don't see any possibility of Hakeem Jeffries becoming Speaker until after the 2024 elections. But it's possible that the Democrats might agree to empower the currently powerless Speaker Pro Tempore to get at least critical legislation moving again.

But if so, there's no chance at all that they'll just do so while exacting no price at all. Come on. I agree that nothing goes with "feckless" like "Democrats," but as for predictions that they'll always make the worst possible decision for both the country and the party just for laughs, that dog won't hunt.
posted by Gelatin at 7:50 AM on October 16, 2023

Why is it always, ALWAYS, the Democrats who must yield, who must surrender, who must compromise, who must give up everything to get nothing more than a government that fulfills its most basic function?

Murc's Law

The so-called "liberal media" is so accustomed to bad behavior by Republicans that it basically isn't news anymore. Expectations of bad faith are baked into the system, as is the expectation that only Democrats actually want to govern. And it's a media problem as much as anything, because obviously that situation creates bad incentives on both sides, with Democrats at a steep disadvantage.
posted by Gelatin at 8:07 AM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

so-called "liberal media" is so accustomed to bad behavior by Republicans

I mean, yeah, but that's not the answer to why it's always the Democrats who must make sacrifices. THAT just comes with being the good guys. The bad guys never have to sacrifice anything except hostages. More fun being the bad guys, huh? But I still want to be on the good guys side.

Whatever government services you value won't be happening when the government is shut down.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:52 AM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

I've said it before and will say it again: evil will always triumph because good is dumb. We can't keep going high when people go low AND WIN by doing so.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:47 AM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

OnceUponATime The problem is that endless capitulation also hurts us. It's a slower hurt, a trickle of injury rather than an avalanche, but it's still hurting and killing people.
posted by sotonohito at 9:58 AM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

Today is the last day of a "district work" period, but House Republicans were putting on a show in their pa's barn.

In April, House Republicans passed their debt-ceiling/spending cuts bill [H.R. 2811], which would slash tens of thousands of Federal agency jobs and specifies labor requirements for people on federal assistance.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:15 AM on October 16, 2023

Please note it's "labor" and not employment: Mandated at 20 hours a week for those 18-55 (with certain exemptions) and paying jobs must meet the $7.25/hr Federal minimum wage. Many enrollees would log underpaid/unpaid "community service" hours so as not to exceed the low-income threshold that qualifies them for SNAP (food) and Medicaid (healthcare) programs (which are state and federal administrated).
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:31 AM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

I mean, yeah, but that's not the answer to why it's always the Democrats who must make sacrifices. THAT just comes with being the good guys. The bad guys never have to sacrifice anything except hostages. More fun being the bad guys, huh? But I still want to be on the good guys side.

This is a very poor framing for a few reasons:

First, the use of "good" and "bad" lays a moral assessment that serves to obscure the actual dynamics involved.

Second, the "good"/"bad" terminology serves to proscribe both culpability and action on both sides - on the GOP side, defining them as "bad" serves to absolve them of culpability for their conduct, while painting the Democratic Party as "good" not only obliges them to act "for the greater good", but also proscribes how they can act. (This, of course, is the point of Murc's Law mentioned earlier - since the GOP is "bad", they have no agency.)

Finally, the proscription on "good" behavior means that not only are the Democrats obliged to act, but only in manners that follow "proper" behavior, which often times means that the GOP gets rewarded for their conduct, and has led us to the point that we are at.

We need to stop reaching for the "good" and "bad" labels, because too often they serve to conceal more than they elucidate.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:46 AM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

CNN & The Guardian say that Jordan claims he's going to go for a full House floor vote Tuesday at noon. Wildly varying "sources" in various places about how close he might be at this specific moment, anywhere from 10 to 40/50 votes short.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:46 AM on October 16, 2023

Yeah, Jordan thinks he can somehow force a vote that will go his way. By all accounts, the only thing he's been good at while in Congress is bullying other people in various ways, but I don't think anyone votes for a bully to be in charge.

If this whole drama didn't have such potentially dire consequences for our country and possibly the world, I would find this all way more entertaining than alarming.
posted by hippybear at 11:53 AM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

I think it's more bullying from Jordan, where he's trying to force his opponents to vote against him publicly, so the MAGAs can berate the holdouts.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:56 AM on October 16, 2023

They’ll have to berate the holdouts once’s he’s lost though, and they hate losers.
posted by Artw at 12:03 PM on October 16, 2023

They’ll have to berate the holdouts once’s he’s lost though, and they hate losers.

They still love Trump.

They'd just find a rationalization, as they always do in pretty much any situation involving any degree of cognitive dissonance. Jordan didn't really lose; he was forced out by Deep State actors who wanted to cover up the world-shaking scandal of Hunter Biden's laptop. They pressured and even blackmailed RINOs to vote against Jordan. Do your research.
posted by Flunkie at 12:13 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

I don't think anyone votes for a bully to be in charge.

Putting a bulling in charge is the motivating purpose of the Freedom Caucus. As to the other Republicans, you'd think they wouldn't willingly go along with it, but they've been going along with it this entire time.
posted by ryanrs at 12:15 PM on October 16, 2023

Jeffries has really been pushing the "bipartisan unity coalition" idea and I sort of love it as a tactic in theory. If it could be pulled off you'd expect the Republicans to renege quickly to go back to business as usual and I don't think a single Dem thinks otherwise, but garbage legislation wouldn't be getting past the veto pen even if it did pass Congress, meanwhile the act of getting Republicans to formally ally with Democrats on something that big is just taking a crowbar to the cracks in the Republican party as the MAGA caucus would react as expected and further attack their own colleagues, which might be a tactical win bigger than any concessions the Dems could realistically get in a unity coalition negotiation.
posted by jason_steakums at 12:51 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

I do have a tiny little bit of hope that the philosophy that is "spending 5% of our military budget on Ukraine will end up ending Putin entirely" that might be carried over into "spending 5% of our political capital on just continuing this GOP infighting will end up destroying it".
posted by hippybear at 1:05 PM on October 16, 2023

Alternately, let's just keep electing all these MAGA asshats, but every one of them has to retain the "any member can instigate a removal" caveat, and let's just let this all roll onward over and over.

Again, if this weren't actually crucial for the running of the country, this would be totally amazing. The Spiffing Brit, who does video game exploit YouTube offerings, would be completely running away with this if it were all 1s and 0s.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

The unfortunate part is I don't think there's anything the Democrats can actually do to get things on track for running the country, we're all at the whims of the Republicans for House business. But silver lining to that is you might as well spend your time making the right noises about bipartisanship and trying different things to exacerbate any splits in the GOP. Even if they got some magical unicorn coalition together aren't they still bound by the House rules allowing easy challenges to the Speaker position for this session? With that in place you take whatever little wins you can, because it's just going to default back to chaos.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:21 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

A bipartisan unity coalition agreement would probably include a set of rules packages to ensure that Jeffries or whoever is chosen will remain Speaker for the rest of the session.
posted by interogative mood at 1:25 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'd certainly hope so or we're just coming back to this point no matter what happens next. It sounds like part of what Jeffries would be angling for would be changes to get legislation with bipartisan support to the floor more easily, and I'd be really interested in seeing what happens if the GOP can't hide from politically inconvenient up or down votes so easily while their caucus control is in shambles and the Dems are showing a lot of discipline.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:46 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

It sounds like part of what Jeffries would be angling for would be changes to get legislation with bipartisan support to the floor more easily, and I'd be really interested in seeing what happens

I also would like to see what happens if some part of Congress started acting on bipartisan bills and not always acting with this total party loyalty.

The US public is not party loyal, and maybe voting for what is best for constituents and not what is best for the party line could be good for all involved: the country, the politicians, and the constituents.
posted by hippybear at 1:50 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

The US public is not party loyal,

The US polity is quite party loyal, which isn't surprising as parties exist for actual reasons and hold positions for those reasons. There are few true independent voters - most "independents" do have a consistent bias, but just choose not to openly identify it for a number of social reasons.

In addition, bipartisanship is not a virtue and should not be treated as such.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:58 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Getting things done that the US public wants to have done is a virtue, and there is basically none of the major things that the US public wants to be done that can be done without some label of "bipartisanship" even if the actual vote results end up being all the things that party X might want done.

I'm talking about things with gigantic public support like gun control, school funding, and funding of health care. And that's not even the beginning of the list.

If there can be some kind of movement on these issues which have been continually held up in the name of "partisanship" under a new banner of "bipartisanship", then I don't know what you're complaining about.
posted by hippybear at 2:05 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's not a virtue to pursue bipartisanship for its own sake, absolutely. But there are definitely bills that have been shielded from up-or-down floor votes specifically because they'd have bipartisan support (or at least a ton of pressure for it) and the Republicans find that politically inconvenient and hide from those when they control the agenda. Budget and debt ceiling stuff especially.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:05 PM on October 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

Oh yes and definitely gun control, good call! That would be an interesting one to see if it couldn't be held back from a floor vote right now.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:08 PM on October 16, 2023

That would be an interesting one to see if it couldn't be held back from a floor vote right now.

As far as I know, the ONLY business that can be conducted on the floor right now is electing a new Speaker. I don't think the acting Speaker has powers to bring actual bills to a vote.
posted by hippybear at 2:10 PM on October 16, 2023

aren't they still bound by the House rules allowing easy challenges to the Speaker position for this session? With that in place you take whatever little wins you can, because it's just going to default back to chaos.

If I'm interpreting what I'm finding correctly, the Subcommittee on Rules and Organization of the House can alter that. (Which is a subcommittee of the Committee on Rules which is immensely powerful and generally cooperates with the Speaker, although it's not headed by the Speaker.)

So that would be the Dem leverage - if there's a chunk of R reps who aren't part of the Nihilistic Chaos Monkey Wing willing to form a coalition of sorts with some/all of the Dems to get a Speaker elected, the agreement would include having the Rules Committee and its 2 subcommittees rewrite House rules & legislative rules to eliminate that "single rep can motion to vacate" clause and do other things that would help prevent the Chaos Monkey Wing from holding bills hostage.

(The unfortunate reality is that Jordan's bullying and threats and riling up the MAGA faithful public (supposedly he's sending out emails & social media messages to get the constituents of his opponents to call their reps and complain loudly) is likely to work, as there are almost no Republican reps left with spines.)
posted by soundguy99 at 2:13 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

As far as I know, the ONLY business that can be conducted on the floor right now is electing a new Speaker. I don't think the acting Speaker has powers to bring actual bills to a vote.

Oh I don't mean like right now right now, but "right now" as in "in the current political moment, if you had a unity coalition and actually got concessions that allowed bills to come to the floor more easily."
posted by jason_steakums at 2:15 PM on October 16, 2023 [1 favorite]

as there are almost no Republican reps left with spines

Literally only takes four.

And if there aren't at least four people in the R caucus who haven't been pissed off by Jordan at some point in the past enough to not vote for him, I'd be completely surprised.

He isn't going to win this vote. Whether he forces it to 15 rounds is up to him.
posted by hippybear at 2:15 PM on October 16, 2023 [4 favorites]

I think the lack of spine thing could go either way if this drags on long enough that pressure from Jordan and the MAGA wing is equalled or exceeded by pressure from the public, especially for those Biden district Republicans
posted by jason_steakums at 2:17 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

The MAGA pressure starts now, but the public pressure doesn't really begin until the shutdown.
posted by ryanrs at 3:43 PM on October 16, 2023

The Dec. 2018-Jan. 2019 shutdown, over Trump's border-wall fantasy, cost billions.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:24 PM on October 16, 2023 [2 favorites]

Round 1 voting underway. It looks like Jordan doesn’t have the votes. At least for this round
posted by interogative mood at 10:15 AM on October 17, 2023

NYT (gift link) has a live tracker as well, and WaPo (ditto) is covering it.

As of this moment 13 Republican votes for not-Jordan, which isn't even particularly close.
posted by box at 10:26 AM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

Which non-Jordan Rs are picking up votes?
posted by ryanrs at 10:42 AM on October 17, 2023

End total on the first round was 20 Rs voting for a non-Jordan candidate. McCarthy and Scalise got the most nods, with a handful of additional randos mentioned.
posted by merriment at 10:48 AM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

And the house is now in recess.
posted by merriment at 10:58 AM on October 17, 2023

So all the "Jordan is now inevitable" talk was him trying to create a sense of momentum by having his mouth write checks his ~~butt~~ whip count couldn't cash. But no one will believe any such momentum story in the future, even if it's true.

At least now the so-called "liberal media" will know not to attach any credibility to anything he -- hahahahaha, no, I just can't.
posted by Gelatin at 11:00 AM on October 17, 2023 [7 favorites]

CNBC story on the failed vote - Article is notable because it contains a photograph of Jim Jordan conferring with associates while Kevin McCarthy is having a belly laugh behind them.
posted by mmascolino at 11:10 AM on October 17, 2023 [9 favorites]

From WaPo’s coverage, this makes me really curious as to what went down:

Womack said in a statement that Scalise had “defeated” Rep. Jim Jordan (R-Ohio) in a private vote in the conference but then was “kneecapped” before he could consolidate the vote.
“It was the most egregious act against a sitting member of our conference I have witnessed” in 13 years in the House, Womack said.
posted by Room 101 at 11:59 AM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

This seems appropriate for the occasion.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:34 PM on October 17, 2023 [3 favorites]

Looking forward to that Republic Party rebrand: "A handful of additional randos"
posted by riverlife at 3:32 PM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

Oh, that's an excellent rebrand. I remember Limbaugh [may his name be a curse until the end of time -spits on ground-] pushing Democrat Party. But now maybe Republic Party is my new push. I like it a lot.
posted by hippybear at 4:02 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

I hope Jordon is having a bad night after big boy’s big day.
posted by mazola at 5:22 PM on October 17, 2023

Colorado rep (and Freedom Caucus member) Ken Buck says he won’t vote for Jordan until he admits that Biden won the 2020 election.

We’ll see how that goes.
posted by box at 5:40 PM on October 17, 2023 [6 favorites]

He's just going to keep having votes until the conservative media and wacko threats slowly bully everyone into voting for him for their own safety.
posted by ctmf at 6:26 PM on October 17, 2023 [2 favorites]

I'm sure some of the Jordan votes were really against him, but voted for him because they knew they safely could without him winning at that point. So 'against' is probably more than 20. Trouble is, they won't have the spine to be one of the last hold-outs, either.
posted by ctmf at 6:36 PM on October 17, 2023 [4 favorites]

When we were on Round 8 or 9 of the McCarthy votes, I said something to the effect of: If the wannabe speaker needs 5 votes, and 10 people are holding out, if he peels off one holdout, then the remaining 9 people increase in power the longer they withhold and the closer he gets to the goal. But for game theory purposes, you don't want to hold out too long, or he'll peel away the votes he needs before you and you're left with nothing.

BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THAT in Jordan's case is that, of the remaining holdouts, who would actually believe him if he promises them anything? Assuming he gets the nod eventually, has he given cause for any of these holdouts to think he'll honor whatever promises he made on the way up?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:13 PM on October 17, 2023

I suspect he’ll be a petty vengeful little fuck towards them, and if they are smart they know that too.
posted by Artw at 10:58 PM on October 17, 2023

So apparently the wife of one of the GOP reps opposing Jordan is now getting threatening text messages and voicemails.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:55 AM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

"'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party

Flippancy aside, I would like to hope that the Republicans experiencing firsthand the evils they inflict on others might make them reconsider their own awfulness. But, sadly, I don't think that will happen.
posted by sotonohito at 8:07 AM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

“Just elect the leopard Speaker of the House, it won’t do this every time you seem like wavering on the Eat Your Face bill!”
posted by Artw at 8:12 AM on October 18, 2023

> "I would like to hope that the Republicans experiencing firsthand the evils they inflict on others might make them reconsider their own awfulness. But, sadly, I don't think that will happen."

JAKE TAPPER: [Jordan] defied a congressional subpoena and he was trying to get Pence to overturn the electoral votes.
DAN CRENSHAW: A lot of them did that. If I held that grudge, I wouldn’t have friends in the Republican Conference.

He, and the rest of them, will never, ever take that thought to its logical conclusion.
posted by kyrademon at 8:25 AM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]

Live coverage of today from the NYT (gift link):

Mario Diaz-Valart (FL), one of the anti-Jordan votes, says: “I think it gets more and more difficult for him every day.” “I think the strategy of trying to threaten people [hurt Jordan.] That was an unfortunate strategy that has backfired dramatically.”

Scott Perry (PA), Freedom Caucus chair, writes on social media: “Just so there’s no surprises: Jordan will likely have FEWER votes today than yesterday — as I expected. This is the fight — which Jim Jordan represents — to end the status quo, and it ain’t easy.”
posted by box at 8:26 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

If anyone ever doubted they were fascists, they should know for sure now. But as the word goes: It Is Difficult to Get a Man to Understand Something When His Salary Depends Upon His Not Understanding It
posted by mumimor at 8:36 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

EmpressCallipygos, unfortunately your link ( threatening text messages and voicemails ) sees to be to a live blog and no longer contains any of the strings "threat", "message", "voice", nor "text". Was that in a video?
posted by achrise at 8:48 AM on October 18, 2023

achrise: Here it is (with screenshots) from Boing Boing.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 8:52 AM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

2nd round of votes, Jordan is already 8 down. Of course they can always back pedal at the end.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:25 AM on October 18, 2023

Jordon goes down again.
posted by interogative mood at 9:27 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

The nytimes ticker for this has the names abbreviated as "JJ" for jim jordan and "HJ" for hakeem jeffries. Truly a shame there is nobody in the GOP caucus named like Bob Jones or whatever to really add another layer of comedy to the proceedings
posted by dis_integration at 9:34 AM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]

Republicans really do not like being treated the way Republicans treat everyone else, it seems.
posted by Artw at 9:37 AM on October 18, 2023 [9 favorites]

Apparently some wiseass voted for John Boehner - the Obama era Republican Speaker who quit in the face of right wing intransigence and who once called Jordan a "legislative terrorist."
posted by soundguy99 at 9:55 AM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

Scott Perry was right--with 22 not-Jordan votes, he did worse than he did yesterday.
posted by box at 10:13 AM on October 18, 2023 [6 favorites]

Scott Perry (PA), Freedom Caucus chair, writes on social media: “Just so there’s no surprises: Jordan will likely have FEWER votes today than yesterday — as I expected. This is the fight — which Jim Jordan represents — to end the status quo, and it ain’t easy.”

The "status quo," of course, being the United States as a representative democracy -- which the Republican Party, representing a dwindling minority of the population and having given up any efforts to persuade, finds inconvenient.
posted by Gelatin at 10:16 AM on October 18, 2023 [13 favorites]

So, Jeffries extends his lead.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:28 AM on October 18, 2023 [4 favorites]

On the third round of voting, will Jordan's declining performance worsen, or level off? Jordan allies dismiss the possibility of a 25+ vote deficit, but congressional math nerds are keeping a sharp eye on the second derivative.

Lawmakers who have worked closely with the Judiciary Committee Chairman describe him as "more of a 3rd derivative kind of guy", but that may not be enough to win this fight.
posted by ryanrs at 11:43 AM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

Truly a shame there is nobody in the GOP caucus named like Bob Jones or whatever to really add another layer of comedy to the proceedings
There is a Bill Johnson, Ohio 6th, Republican.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:46 AM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

Lawmakers who have worked closely with the Judiciary Committee Chairman describe him as "more of a 3rd derivative kind of guy"

Oh fourth derivative, that’s harsh!
posted by notoriety public at 12:23 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

Fun math & science fact:

In physics, when a graph is showing the position of something over time, the first derivative is the velocity, the second derivative is the acceleration, and the third derivative is the change in acceleration, also known as the "jerk".
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:41 PM on October 18, 2023 [16 favorites]

Now, the fun part in the meantime is going to be watching social media as the hard right paints McHenry -- who voted for Trump twice, wants a national abortion ban, wants a same-sex marriage ban, voted against the J6 Commission and supports national concealed carry -- as a Deep State Operative, a Secret Communist, a Democratic Plant, a RINO, a Socialist, a Quisling, a Uniparty Puppet, a WEF Flunky and a Warmonger.

Why?

Because he is not the hardest-right option available, he's spoken favorably about aiding Ukraine, he was insufficiently subservient to Trump post-election, and he could potentially be amenable to not shutting down the government arbitrarily. Thus, he is only a red belt in kookery and Real Patriotic Conservative Principles[tm] demand at least a quadruple black belt.

But as soon as anyone declares McHenry "the Democrats' choice," start laughing, because their choice is Hakeem Jeffries. McHenry would simply be a painful rectal itch compared to the full-on cancer of Jordan.
posted by delfin at 1:02 PM on October 18, 2023 [5 favorites]

I guess the difference is the Democratic coalition generally prevents them from ever truly forming in the first place due to purity tests, while the Republic Party has people forming coalitions but then later performing purity tests so they get torn apart in dramatic, public fashion.

I don't think either version is great, but this one is more fun to watch and less frustrating.
posted by hippybear at 1:22 PM on October 18, 2023

will Jordan's declining performance worsen, or level off?

Setting aside the math joke, there are rumors floating around that Jordan's opposition is quite a bit larger than the current batch of "not Jordan" votes, and they've made a compact amongst themselves to either add a couple more votes against him each time, or to swap their votes around so there's always 20-something votes against him. Until eventually he gets the message that he'll never win.
posted by soundguy99 at 1:26 PM on October 18, 2023 [12 favorites]

lmao
posted by ryanrs at 1:29 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

One of the anti-Jordan group should tell him that they'll vote for him if the voting is secret. Then, with a secret vote have several members switch to Jeffries.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 1:55 PM on October 18, 2023 [7 favorites]

Some of the last day's headlines from Politico:

- Jordan tries, tries again to win votes for speaker on second ballot

- The House hit pause after a vote Tuesday to try and regroup.

- Jordan detractors believe it gets 'a lot worse' for him on a third speakership ballot

- Jordan’s speakership campaign on its last legs

- As Jordan wobbles, House GOP eyes potential next speaker candidates

lol
posted by ryanrs at 3:52 PM on October 18, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jordan has Trump’s ‘Complete and Total Endorsement’ vía Truth Social, which, as Mitt Romney might put it, looks to be worth about as much as a degree from Trump University.
posted by box at 5:01 PM on October 18, 2023 [2 favorites]

One of the anti-Jordan group should tell him that they'll vote for him if the voting is secret. Then, with a secret vote have several members switch to Jeffries.

Can't do it secret ballot, because without the threat of reprisal he'd get like 20 votes total.
posted by ctmf at 5:56 PM on October 18, 2023

Is it even allowed? Seems bad for representative democracy. Internal party shit is one thing, but I don't think they do anon votes on the floor.
posted by ryanrs at 6:00 PM on October 18, 2023

CNN's Melanie Zanona on X

NEWS: Some of Jim Jordan's opponents tell me they've been purposely staggering their "no" votes over multiple ballots -- a strategy designed to show Jordan's speakership opposition is only growing.

And that's why they tell me Jordan will bleed even more support on a third ballot

I appreciate fucking with JJ on general principle, I just wish they'd do it on their own time.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:18 PM on October 18, 2023 [12 favorites]

Was watching The Next Level podcast on YouTube this evening and there was sort of a longing similar to what I've been expressing, that there'd be a sort of giant lump forming in the middle giving an overwhelming majority for a surprise middle-of-the-road candidate committed to bringing any bill with a majority in favor, regardless of party breakdown, to the floor. They felt it was wishcasting, but they also felt the longer this other bullshit drama that goes on with the extreme members not being able to elect one of their own, the more likely this might, "might", arise somehow.
posted by hippybear at 8:42 PM on October 18, 2023 [1 favorite]

The craziest outcome would be some protest "present" votes on the GOP side getting thrown out there to rattle Jordan without sufficiently paying attention to the vote count and you accidentally get Jeffries, and it's nuts that that is even in the realm of possibility
posted by jason_steakums at 7:43 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]

Actually, I think the craziest outcome would be if someone elected a burrito to serve as speaker, and the way things are going I think that isn't quite as impossible as I would have thought a year ago.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:47 AM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

What if they elected a burro, rather than an ass? Then they could spend the rest of the term demanding to know where the burro was born. It would make for some headlines, and the burro would probably get some nice fodder and maybe carrots…..
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:06 AM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]

Threats fly as Jim Jordan's bid to be US House Speaker turns ugly [BBC]: "Republican lawmakers say they have been targeted by intimidation tactics, including death threats, from allies of Jim Jordan as his bid for the US House of Representatives speakership falters."
posted by mazola at 8:08 AM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

Jordan Is Said to Endorse Temporary Speaker Plan, Holding Off on Third Vote

I hope this whole business was very damaging to him.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

Since we don't have an open Trump thread, I think its too early to make one and this is where we discuss the insanity of the Republicans, here is: Sidney Powell Pleads Guilty in Georgia Trump Case. NYTimes, but you don't have to click the link, because it is just what the title says. She has plead guilty and is willing to witness against all the other defendants.
posted by mumimor at 9:19 AM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]

We can just say not being able to do some Hunter Biden bullshit to distract must be driving them crazy.
posted by Artw at 9:20 AM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]

She has plead guilty and is willing to witness against all the other defendants.

I don't have my source in front of me, but the article I read said she is required to testify against all the defendants that she knows committed election tampering crimes, as part of her plea deal.

Not that she is not willing, as well. Only pointing out so no one gets the impression if asked about Trump (for ex), she can't just say, "Nah, Let's not talk about what he did."
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 10:22 AM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]

You know, it’s not like we are wildly overburdened with FPPs, someone should probably just go ahead and post that.
posted by Artw at 12:16 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]

Breaking on @MSNBC: Multiple Republican members of the House just left their closed door meeting declaring the move to empower interim Speaker Patrick McHenry "dead."
posted by Artw at 12:54 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

This really feels like the GOP is begging itself for a split, but just can't quite commit.

And it's not like either half would caucus with the Dems, so we'd still be right here...
posted by Xoder at 1:07 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

Ok but it would take a lot more than "multiple" Republicans to declare this dead if Democrats will vote for some additional powers for the temp Speaker?
posted by Glinn at 1:14 PM on October 19, 2023

Was watching The Next Level podcast on YouTube this evening and there was sort of a longing similar to what I've been expressing, that there'd be a sort of giant lump forming in the middle giving an overwhelming majority for a surprise middle-of-the-road candidate committed to bringing any bill with a majority in favor, regardless of party breakdown, to the floor. They felt it was wishcasting, but they also felt the longer this other bullshit drama that goes on with the extreme members not being able to elect one of their own, the more likely this might, "might", arise somehow.

ME: (hollers up to wife) Is Jimmy Stewart still dead?

WIFE: (hollers back) Yep!

Mr. Smith is not coming back to Washington. Ever.
posted by delfin at 1:27 PM on October 19, 2023 [8 favorites]

"We tried to elect Jordan, and we're all out of ideas!"

The Republicans should be given more rope, IMO. If they want to govern effectively, they will need to overpower and leash (if not muzzle) their extremist members.

Why should the Dems help them avoid doing that housecleaning? Yes, sure, 'for the good of the country', but we're not there yet. Let 'em do some soul searching for a few weeks, they could really use it.
posted by ryanrs at 1:49 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

Jordan vows to stay in speaker race as tensions erupt inside GOP meeting

In a sign of the emotional tone of the meeting, Gaetz was at one point told to sit down by McCarthy, a California Republican, and refused to do so, which led to Rep. Mike Bost of Illinois becoming “all emotional and ugly and was cussing him,” and “telling him it’s all his fault,” one member said describing the meeting.

Other sources, confirming this exchange, said McCarthy “yelled” at Gaetz to sit down. And when Gaetz didn’t listen, another member in the room yelled “sit the f*** down, Matt.”

posted by jason_steakums at 1:58 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]

Gaetz is living at the center of his own story and trying to make it the center of everyone's story. He's completely unwilling to hold the reins himself, he wants to be the Wormtongue whispering into the ear of the king. Honestly, the House has had repeated chances to get rid of Gaetz and they refuse to do so. I guess they're going to get the trouble they've invited and the reward they've earned.
posted by hippybear at 2:25 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]

If they want to govern effectively

Sir, these are republicans.
posted by VTX at 2:44 PM on October 19, 2023 [18 favorites]

You know, it’s not like we are wildly overburdened with FPPs, someone should probably just go ahead and post that.

I got your ice cold [Sidney Powell post]
posted by box at 3:22 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]

Politico:

When Matt Gaetz stepped to the microphones during Thursday’s three-hour private House GOP meeting on the speakership, the speaker he ousted promptly yelled at him to “sit down.”

Kevin McCarthy was not the only Republican to vent fury with Gaetz, the Florida conservative who successfully ousted the House’s leader. The room met Gaetz with booing, profanities and calls to back off, according to multiple lawmakers in the room. When Gaetz refused, Rep. Mike Bost (R-Ill.) stood up and hollered a command at him that one Republican recalled as: “If you don’t sit down, I’ll put you down.”
posted by ryanrs at 4:46 PM on October 19, 2023 [11 favorites]

As I get older, I remain surprised at how often big decisions in politics and the economy get made by grown men screaming at each other behind closed doors.
posted by clawsoon at 5:20 PM on October 19, 2023 [13 favorites]

But when women run for office, there are all these concerns that we're "too emotional". Meanwhile, in actual women's lives.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2023 [16 favorites]

Republicans have not had a major legislative achievement since W.'s first term. The drive to privatize Social Security failed miserably in 2005 and since then every significant "accomplishment" has been negative. Shutdowns, sequestrations, intransigence. Any serious argument against this would be all about the Trump tax cuts, IMHO such a mess of handouts it can't count. With both houses and a friendly president they couldn't even pass something easy like tort reform to give them a fig leaf of cover to repeal the ACA.

This means two decades where the only behavior they succeeded with was obstructing things. There's no institutional memory in the GOP of compromising and legislating in order to pass something. It's no accident that McCarthy, one of the few people in the party who was willing to horse trade, was from the class of 2003.

So everyone who says Republicans are now doing to each other what they've done to the country is exactly right. The anti-McCarthy wing lost an intraparty vote. They are a minority not just in the House but in their own party. But then they torpedoed Scalise anyway. It's pretty outrageous behavior: sabotage the winner and expect to be rewarded for being destructive. But it's all most of them have ever encountered.
posted by mark k at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2023 [21 favorites]

The Trump tax bill was a major achievement. It was deeply flawed but did massively change the tax code.
posted by interogative mood at 2:35 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

Destroying the Supreme Court was also a legislative action, though that’s the Senate and not the House.
posted by Mchelly at 3:17 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

Holy hell he’s holding a press conference. Like now. At 8AM ET on a Friday. Who does he think is going to watch at this hour?

He is currently giving a speech as though he were running for President and not the leader of a gaggle of sex pests.
posted by Room 101 at 5:09 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]

When Gaetz refused, Rep. Mike Bost (R-Ill.) stood up and hollered a command at him that one Republican recalled as: “If you don’t sit down, I’ll put you down.”

From your lips to God's ears.
posted by corb at 5:13 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

You have to look past its use of "mainstream" when it refers to any of the Republicans at this point, but this NYTimes article on the physical threats the holdouts have received has some nice texture to add, ending with the fact that the familiar hard-right outlets are -- DARVO/Trump'sMirror-style -- publically referring to the quote-unquote-centrists as "the CHAOS CAUCUS" as they whip up their base to send threatening phonecalls, etc.

But will any of them have the strength of character to denounce their bedfellows' tactics when they're not the targets anymore?
posted by nobody at 5:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

This means two decades where the only behavior they succeeded with was obstructing things. There's no institutional memory in the GOP of compromising and legislating in order to pass something.

This is completely by design.

The Reagan mantra, as we recall, was that big government was the enemy and needed to be throttled, so that individual entities and states could return to being little conservative Christian enclaves. The greedheads of the nineties and 2000s wanted government shrunk down to where it could be drowned in a bathtub. Right now, Emmer and Scalise are declaring the McHenry maneuver dead because "it is never acceptable to have any kind of coalition with Democrats" -- even as they continue to try to blame Democrats for the Speaker clusterfuck because DEMOCRATS failed to reach out to Emmer and Scalise and such to give McCarthy free votes out of the kindness of their hearts.

The Republicans want Congress to do absolutely nothing that they, themselves, do not personally control. This goes for both the Freedom Kookus and the so-called 'moderates.' The problem with dreaming of a Coalition of the Middle with 120 Rs and 120 Ds working together to pass legislation is that there aren't 120 Rs in the House that want to pass bipartisan legislation, apart from the barest minimum necessary to keep the country vaguely functional. Period. And the hardliners don't even want that barest minimum to pass, because they feel that they gain more from blaming Biden and Democrats for collapse than from having a vaguely functional nation.

Democrats gain nothing from supporting someone like McHenry, who would happily make the debt-ceiling/shutdown negotiation process as painful as possible because that's what an R Speaker is there to do, unless they have reason to believe that the candidate they grudgingly support will reward them in some way for their cooperation. This is not Charity Hour. And even if McHenry or some other 'moderate' who'd emerge wanted to negotiate, horse-trade and find a better way to do things in the House -- and I assure you, they do not -- the complete opposite of support that they would receive, both from their fellow Congresspeople and from conservative media, would be breathtaking.
posted by delfin at 6:22 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]

I do hope that there are entire rounds of arrests about to happen for these threats of physical harm and death. We've been ignoring these things for far too long. And there was that guy arrested recently in Obama's neighborhood, and that woman who had posted death threats online who was arrested. So maybe they're going to take these things more seriously from now on. But seriously, people with handcuffs need to be showing up to arrest the people making these threats, and I don't care what level of the government they might work in.
posted by hippybear at 7:14 AM on October 20, 2023 [7 favorites]

But will any of them have the strength of character to denounce their bedfellows' tactics when they're not the targets anymore?

No I’d the obvious answer of course, though I think that’s less cowardice and more that they don’t consider that sort of thing wrong when it is aimed at the right people. That it has been aimed at them is the outrage here.
posted by Artw at 7:22 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

Just a reminder that McHenry is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM moderate about anything. He is a red meat Republican who worked hand in glove with kleptocratic Trumpists. Any deal with him is a non-starter.
posted by rikschell at 7:33 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

Ok I laughed at McCarthy's speech. These things are kind of ridiculous normally but sheesh.
posted by mazola at 8:05 AM on October 20, 2023

And apparently we're doing this again. We are only on "O" in the alphabet and Jordan is already three votes down from the last one (Fitzpatrick, Kean, and Molinaro).
posted by jackbishop at 8:37 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

Jordan barely mutters his own name [BBC live reporting]:

"The difference on each side is stark.

Democrats are enjoying every moment of this vote.

They chanted "Hakeem! Hakeem! Hakeem!" when their leader was nominated and they cheered like they were at a party when he voted for himself just now.

By contrast, when Jim Jordan's name came up in the roll call, the Ohio congressman barely muttered his own name as his vote.

He sat back down with a sheepish grin as the Republicans around him applauded."

posted by mazola at 8:43 AM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]

25 down this time.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:12 AM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]

Second derivative is still negative, heh.
posted by ryanrs at 9:17 AM on October 20, 2023

25 down this time.

Rookie numbers!
posted by Artw at 9:18 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

I'm sure with practice his numbers can get even larger.
posted by hippybear at 9:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

He should resume the bullying with more intensity.
posted by Artw at 9:45 AM on October 20, 2023

He’s got all weekend.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 9:49 AM on October 20, 2023

Jeffries' lead grows to sixteen votes.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:54 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

From a tiny NYTimes live update I'm not confident will link properly:

The eight Republicans led by Matt Gaetz of Florida, left, who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker have sent a letter to their colleagues saying they are willing to accept some form of punishment if that will move holdouts to vote in favor of Jim Jordan.

Oh, my god, the clowns.
posted by nobody at 10:44 AM on October 20, 2023 [10 favorites]

Okay, let's have them all forced out of office right after Jordan is voted in. Then Rs lose the majority and Jordan loses his office and Jeffries gets elected.

Sounds perfect to me.
posted by hippybear at 10:46 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

~~eight~~ Republicans

REP. BUCK tells me : "I have not signed the letter. I'm not going to sign the letter. I am not in favor of electing Jim Jordan speaker."
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:49 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

When you've built your identity on refusing to compromise on anything, ever, I guess "please hurt me, senpai" is he only bargain you have left to make?

I mean, at this point wouldn't the best Republican play be to let Jeffries get the post and then spend the next year-and-change shouting about what a terrible job he does, regardless of what he actually does?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 10:49 AM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]

The eight Republicans led by Matt Gaetz of Florida, left, who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker have sent a letter to their colleagues saying they are willing to accept some form of punishment if that will move holdouts to vote in favor of Jim Jordan.

The really bizarre part of that is that one of those eight is Ken Buck, who has consistently voted against Jordan. It's like none of these people actually know what they want.

(edit after seeing posts which immediatly preceded this one: Aha, well, that makes slightly more sense now)
posted by jackbishop at 10:50 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

Ahahahahahaha

Someone told Gaetz et al that they needed atone for their bad behavior and show some humility, and they come back with "ok, we'll let you censure us so long as you vote for our guy".
posted by ryanrs at 10:54 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

US House Speaker vote live updates: Republicans remove Jim Jordan - BBC News

Republicans have voted to remove Jim Jordan as their nominee for Speaker of the House, after he lost three successive floor ballots.

The Ohio Republican was ousted in an internal party vote, two representatives told the BBC.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:13 AM on October 20, 2023 [13 favorites]

> willing to accept some form of punishment

get the fraternity paddles out, i guess
posted by dis_integration at 12:00 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]

Speaking to reporters on Friday after a campaign event in South Carolina, Gov. Ron DeSantis of Florida accused House Republicans of engaging in “palace intrigue” instead of “delivering results.”

“Look, I think it’s unfortunate that these guys can’t get their act together,” said Mr. DeSantis, a Republican running for president who once served in the House. “It’s like the gang that can’t shoot straight. They’ve been running around like chickens with their heads cut off. It’s not inspiring confidence. There’s a lot of theater.” (NYT)
posted by box at 12:17 PM on October 20, 2023

Next out of the Clown Car appears to be Kevin Hern of Oklahoma. I read up on him. Some highlights:

- Leads the very conservative "Republican Study Commitee", one of the not-weird-at-all "Five Families" within the GOP
- Voted against certifying the 2020 election
- Was on the NO side of a 407-16 vote on the ALLIES Act, expanding visas for Afghan refugees.

It's shitheels all the way down
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:22 PM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]

Having been relieved of their leadership ambitions, I assume the freedom caucus peeps will go back to obstruction, like during the McCarthy vote.
posted by ryanrs at 12:44 PM on October 20, 2023

Hern is not officially a Freedom Kook, but then again neither is Margie any more.

As noted, he is ultraconservative, enough so to draw some votes from Kooks during the McCarthy circus. Some anti-Jordaners will have hard choices to make as to whether they're against Jordan specifically, against what amounts to a Freedom Kook proxy, or if they'll choose to vote for Herd and then be shocked! shocked, I say! when things next grind to a halt.
posted by delfin at 12:55 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

If all it takes is 5 to block, I don't see how anyone gets it. I'm not sure we'll see a speaker before the next election.
posted by rikschell at 1:18 PM on October 20, 2023

Which is what the obstructionists really want anyway.

Maybe not drowning the government, but semi-asphyxiating it.
posted by riverlife at 1:37 PM on October 20, 2023

for Paul Ryan's triumphant return, Lipizzaner (signaling gravitas) or Clydesdale (for Wisconsin)? my da's a farrier and we're getting a pool going
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:44 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

Anyone know who arranged for the secret ballot on Jordan? Politico says it was a move by Jordan's own team that backfired in the most hilarious way, but I haven't seen this reported anywhere else.
posted by theory at 1:47 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]

Some anti-Jordaners will have hard choices to make as to whether they're against Jordan specifically, against what amounts to a Freedom Kook proxy, or if they'll choose to vote for Herd and then be shocked! shocked, I say! when things next grind to a halt.

FWIW, it takes a special kind of awful to have quite as much baggage as Jordan does. He's been in Washington for decades and literally nobody can with a straight face praise his legislative prowess, because he doesn't have any. He is very much a known quantity and nobody expects him to change and the tiny group of Republicans who dare to hope to actually do anything at all (even terrible things) during this Congress are having no part of that.

Hern, or literally anyone else, allows the vague possibility that he'll, y'know, try to actually pass a law or two at some point.
posted by jackbishop at 2:12 PM on October 20, 2023

Jordan was an excellent pick if you wanted to push the election for Trump with investigation theater in the House, or maybe just steal it outright. Hern or whoever may still go that way, but with Jordan it was 100% guaranteed.

It's good for America that Gaetz and Jordan were publicly humiliated and voted down in their own conference, even if Republicans in general remain awful.
posted by ryanrs at 2:47 PM on October 20, 2023 [6 favorites]

Somewhere, Jim Jordan is sad and suffering tonight, having watched his chance at the speakership go up in flames. Please join me in a moment of silence so I can focus on pretending to hear him sobbing. A sweet sound indeed.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:41 PM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]

Honestly having Jordan's prospects crash and burn on such a global stage makes me a bit happy. I should feel bad about having these feelings. I will try to schedule those feelings in for some time next week.
posted by hippybear at 3:46 PM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]

"Jim Jordan says he's 'going back to work' after losing secret ballot" is the Guardian headline.

Glad the congressman acknowledges that this week's activities were not actual work; hopes & prayers this strange infection spreads to the rest of his party.
posted by Iris Gambol at 4:11 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

The eight Republicans led by Matt Gaetz of Florida, left, who voted to oust Kevin McCarthy as speaker have sent a letter to their colleagues saying they are willing to accept some form of punishment if that will move holdouts to vote in favor of Jim Jordan.

To any GOP members of the House, I have a better idea:

Punish them. No strings attached.
posted by Flunkie at 5:23 PM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]

Anything they say they'll accept now, they'll reject later.
(also the caption to my NYer cartoon submission, the one with the Mudville uniform)
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:52 PM on October 20, 2023

no, the caption for a new yorker congress cartoon couldn't be "christ, what an asshole" - an asshole does something useful
posted by pyramid termite at 6:21 PM on October 20, 2023

Gaetz referred to Jordan as "the most popular Republican in Congress" on Twitter today and, remarkably, not a single continent crumbled and collapsed into the sea.
posted by delfin at 6:38 PM on October 20, 2023

Now I'm left wondering who would be the most popular Republican in Congress. I can't name any of them that aren't participants of abhorrent actions, but surely there much be Republican members of Congress who aren't a part of any of that, just sadly affiliated despite their lack of participation?

They aren't popular, however. I don't know their names. Nobody does.
posted by hippybear at 6:51 PM on October 20, 2023

It's not that rank-and-file Republicans are lovable scamps, it's more that Jordan has to sneak up on his own shadow to keep it from screaming at him.
posted by delfin at 7:01 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jordan's failure helps me steer away from despair and paralysis for the future of U.S. democracy, which is nice.

Republican House members didn't want him to win, not even for their own self-serving reasons. His shot was in coercing them outside the House walls, by fascist means, invoking the strongman and activating the brownshirts to threaten them.

If that had succeeded, it would have been a big step towards sidelining the institutions (fucked as they are) and replacing them in practice with worse, power in thuggery and mob-boss jockeying.
posted by away for regrooving at 10:02 PM on October 20, 2023 [9 favorites]

*So* many details about Jordan looking the other way about the OSU doctor's sexual abuse of wrestlers, and lying about it later, in today's Wapo piece about Jordan's career (gift link). Stuff like this:

Yetts burst out of the examining room screaming in fury. “I literally almost hit Jimmy with the door,” Yetts said. By his account, he began cussing to both Jordan and Hellickson about Strauss’s fondling and threatened to go back to Purdue. Hellickson, he recalled, tried to calm him by explaining that it was a routine examination. Yetts protested that it was like no exam he’d ever experienced.

When Yetts injured his thumb in a sparring match with a teammate he had to see Strauss again, and again the doctor told him to disrobe. “It’s my thumb,” Yetts protested. Yetts fled the exam and slammed back into the locker room, livid. This time, according to Yetts, at least two other teammates witnessed his protest to Hellickson and Jordan. One of those teammates, who confirmed the exchange but refused to be named, heard Jordan respond something mollifying to the effect of, “He’s a doctor.”
posted by mediareport at 9:50 AM on October 21, 2023 [6 favorites]

The fun thing is they are trying as hard as possible to make this a puff piece.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on October 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

This sentence, though:

But there was a sport that offered compensating opportunities for stature-challenged featherweights: wrestling.

TIL that Jim Jordan wrestled at 5'7" and 137 pounds.
posted by box at 11:03 AM on October 21, 2023

Jake Sherman on Twitter: "IN THE MEETING yesterday between JIM JORDAN and hold outs, close Jordan ally WARREN DAVIDSON said it's not Team Jordan's fault that holdouts are getting death threats. They are getting the death threats, he said, because they voted against Jordan.

This was relayed to me from many ppl in the room."

This is fine.
posted by delfin at 1:44 PM on October 21, 2023 [6 favorites]

TIL Jordan nearly made the 1988 Olympic team.

This lengthy profile of Jordan and his Chihuahua-like approach to his life and career doesn't specify his introduction of 30 pieces of legislation in his 16 years in Congress -- without a single bill being passed. WaPo does explain Jordan's failure is not from general ineptitude: Jordan, despite "a disdain for government power," was an active lawmaker in the Ohio state senate. Later, "hearing from legislative friends in Columbus 'what a pain in the ass' Jordan was," John Boehner (minority whip at the time) was pleasantly surprised when the freshman US rep seemed to have the makings of a team player. Boehner met with Jordan to praise him, telling Jordan to keep up the good work, but “That was the kiss of death,” Boehner soon realized.

Jordan returned to the pesteringly attacking style he perfected as a wrestler [,] calculating ways to prevent House Republicans from compromising with Democrats. [...] Hard as he tried to understand Jordan’s motives, Boehner couldn’t. Jordan seemed to Boehner more interested in obstructing legislation than constructively working on it. Boehner said he came to think of Jordan simply as “an anarchist” who wanted to tear everything down. Helping show Boehner the door in 2015 was no way to improve their working relationship, of course.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:34 PM on October 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

Oh, and stop trying to make me like Liz Cheney:

As the rioters neared the House chamber that day, Jordan approached fellow Republican Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming and said they needed to get “the ladies” away from the aisle. Outraged by Jordan’s role in pushing the election fraud lie, Cheney smacked his hand and said, “Get away from me! You f---ing did this!” Cheney, who co-chaired a House select committee investigating the Capitol attack, would later assert that “Jim Jordan knew more about what Donald Trump had planned for January 6 than any other member of the House of Representatives.” [...]

Later that night, Jordan was among 147 Republican lawmakers who voted to overturn the election results. A week later, he was in the Oval Office receiving from Trump the presidential medal of freedom.

The other US rep recipient that day: Devin Nunes, Trump's "second-strongest ally in Congress" and now CEO of the Trump Media & Technology Group.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:38 PM on October 21, 2023 [8 favorites]

and now CEO of the Trump Media & Technology Group

Oh, well, and things there are going swimmingly.
posted by hippybear at 2:43 PM on October 21, 2023

Jordan comes off as a vile, mean and uncurious person in that article, which I all knew already. But I do think I understand his appeal to his voters better now, which is interesting. And of course the more direct connection with Trump via wrestling. Obviously there is a big difference between the type of wrestling that is an olympic sport that Jordan did and Trump's engagement in WWE, but the difference is on a spectrum, it's not tulips and electric light bulbs.

The sex-scandal thing is central. It's not like Jordan would have to take any blame. He was a junior employee, and all the wrestlers seem to say that while they did find the doctor's abuse disgusting, they didn't think to describe it and call it as sexual abuse at the time, that happened far later. But disgust and humiliation are very central to fascist thinking, and they are always positioning themselves very accurately (for their own values) in relation to them. For some reason, it can be ok to be disgusting and to subject yourself to humiliation in some situations, like Matt Gaetz offering to take a spanking if the Republicans would chose Jordan as speaker, or Kevin McCarthy presenting Jordan for the vote. It's complicated, and I'm not sure I need to understand how it works. But look at how often Trump talks about disgust, and how often he forces Republicans to humiliate themselves.
posted by mumimor at 3:35 PM on October 21, 2023 [6 favorites]

It's not that complicated. It's authoritarianism at its most primal; to be above someone in the order of things gives you an amount of power over their actions. With enough leverage, you can control them, make them debase themselves, and watch as they humiliate themselves on a public stage because you have given them no better option. I have might, therefore I am right and you are wrong, regardless of the facts or circumstances.

There is a word in Orwell's 1984: duckspeak. It refers to a person who speaks without thinking, who babbles out orthodoxy without any pause for reflection or argument, and who rattles out the Correct Opinions and only the Correct Opinions with the efficiency of a verbal machine gun.

This is Jordan's world. I am not sure that he has ever fully believed a single word that has come out of his mouth on the House floor or before a camera. It is as if there is a invisible teleprompter in front of him at all times, providing him with whatever it calculates will play best with the target audience, who are primed to believe and support him as long as he says what they want to hear. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, as long as it is shouted in an angry tone, because a figure of authority doesn't have to be correct or coherent.

And what that target audience wants to hear -- the Trump base, the circle-jerks on social media, the children of Gingrich and Limbaugh and Fox News and Free Republic and Newsmax and QAnon -- is that the traditional order of America is coming back. That if you are in the in-group, meaning that you check the right race-gender-ethnicity-politics-cultural boxes or at least vocally support those who do, you are above the Other. You can condemn what you hate about them. You can demand that they recognize your culture, your beliefs, your way of life as superior, for no better reason than that you insist that they are.
posted by delfin at 4:15 PM on October 21, 2023 [14 favorites]

When people say the cruelty is the point, it really is.
posted by Artw at 5:54 PM on October 21, 2023 [14 favorites]

Real weird, at that Post Jordan piece: "Reg Brown, an influential lawyer-lobbyist at Kirkland & Ellis, advised Jordan on messaging. Years earlier, Brown had helped another Republican, Rep. Jim Kolbe of Arizona, clear his name after he was confronted with a somewhat similar situation — accused of knowing about Republican House speaker Dennis Hastert’s past as a sexually predatory wrestling coach in Illinois, a scandal that forced Hastert from Congress and into prison."

But Hastert was out of Congress well before then, as was Kolbe, and anyhow, that wasn't the accusation??

Reg Brown repped Kolbe [R-AZ, 2 districts & 22 years] when Kolbe was accused of having behaved inappropriately with underage pages. In 2007, the DOJ questioned the representative about a mid-90s group camping trip and an incident in 2001; this was in the wake of the 2006 Mark Foley scandal. Kolbe, then the only openly gay member of the House, had said he'd been contacted by a former page about Foley; the former page had received emails that made him uncomfortable. Rep. Kolbe said he and his staff then alerted the clerk of the House, years before the Foley scandal broke in September 2006.

Rep. Kolbe retired in 2007. Speaker Hastert resigned in 2007 (Democrats had gained a majority in the House) and became a lobbyist. The child molestation charges, related banking irregularities (Hastert was trying to cover up paying hush money to a victim), and sentencing are years later, 2015/2016.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:13 PM on October 21, 2023 [4 favorites]

Like, there are typos and then there's MadLibs, WaPo? What similar situation are you getting at?
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:18 PM on October 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

Trump’s Truth Social had a it’s biggest week ever when the Biden Campaign setup a troll account there.
posted by interogative mood at 10:37 PM on October 21, 2023 [3 favorites]

Jake Sherman on Twitter: "IN THE MEETING yesterday between JIM JORDAN and hold outs, close Jordan ally WARREN DAVIDSON said it's not Team Jordan's fault that holdouts are getting death threats. They are getting the death threats, he said, because they voted against Jordan."

Dear Ohio Democratic Party - when you're making your campaign ads for Davidson's challenger this year, MENTION THIS A WHOLE LOT.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:55 AM on October 22, 2023 [5 favorites]

House speaker race widens to 9 Republicans vying for nomination [NPR]

Rep. Mike Flood of Nebraska introduced a "unity pledge" on Friday, which seeks the commitment of Republicans "to support the Speaker Designate elected by the House Republican Conference — regardless of who that candidate is — when their election proceeds to the House Floor."

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:52 PM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]

A loyalty pledge, when the presidential-primary version went so well.
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:11 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]

As I get older, I remain surprised at how often big decisions in politics and the economy get made by grown men screaming at each other behind closed doors.

There are 33 women who are Republican House Representatives (about 15% of their House caucus). I didn't find out the makeup of the House Republican Conference though. So they are there, but even if they are represented in the Conference I do accept that their voices are mostly (x̄ MTG) drowned out by men in the yelling.

NB That link also shows that women make up 43% of the House Democrats.
posted by achrise at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2023

I didn't find out the makeup of the House Republican Conference though.

It's a caucus of all the Republicans in the House.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:06 AM on October 23, 2023

Who are the Republican candidates to be US House Speaker? [BBC].
posted by mazola at 10:10 AM on October 23, 2023

Mr Emmer, however, may have difficulties in securing votes from right-wing Republicans and allies of former president Donald Trump, some of whom have criticised him voting to certify the results of the 2020 election in Joe Biden's favour. Only two of the nine Republican Speaker candidates chose to do so.
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on October 23, 2023

I really hope that Biden has gotten a whole fuckton of Constitutional lawyers working on finding some way to twist the law so as to allow him to just decree that the govenrment stays open and the bills will continue to be paid while the Republicans keep fighting this.

I know there's a legal argument to be made for that, there's a legal argument to be made for more or less any position. Some are bad arguments, some are better arguments, but the argument always exists and in times like this all you really need is the fig leaf of legality to justify taking an action that everyone knows is correct.
posted by sotonohito at 11:57 AM on October 23, 2023 [2 favorites]

Hello, Overton Window. At first I was excited that Emmer was the frontrunner, because he at least certified the election. Oh, but wait! He did sign on to a Supreme Court amicus brief to throw out the election on 12/11/20. Then doing a brief metafilter search, we have:

Let us not forget that this is the man who won his seat by primarying, and being further to the right of, Michelle Bachman, who was the Boebert of her day.
posted by frecklefaerie at 12:00 PM on October 23, 2023 [6 favorites]

Michelle Bachman, who was the Boebert of her day

Being a Boebert implies a certain level of raging no-impulse-control horniness that I think doesn't really apply to Bachmann, unfortunate photo of her eating a corn dog notwithstanding. To be a Boebert it's not enough to be dumb as a box of hammers, and to be mean as a snake, you've also gotta be giving out handies in public because your what-passes-for-mind is 98% pure uncontrollable id.

I'm sure you can pull this out of their vote matrices if you throw enough dimensions at dwnominate
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:46 PM on October 23, 2023 [5 favorites]

all nine candidates supported efforts to disenfranchise millions of Americans and inhibit the peaceful transfer of power.
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on October 23, 2023 [7 favorites]

WaPo Live updates: House Republicans pick Tom Emmer as their next speaker nominee

Rep. Tom Emmer (R-Minn.), the House majority whip, was elected as the GOP speaker nominee on a fifth ballot in an internal race that drew nine Republican candidates. Emmer, who has been in Congress since 2015, previously chaired the National Republican Congressional Committee — the House GOP campaign arm — for four years. He is the third Republican speaker nominee since the ouster of Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.). It is not clear whether he has enough support to be elected on the House floor. To prevail, Emmer will need a majority of the full chamber.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:30 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

can we all agree that just because boebert has previously been caught being mad rutty in public that it doesn’t therefore mean that being mad rutty in public is a bad thing?

like, there are a vast number of awful things she has said and done, including issuing statements about getting mad rutty in public being a bad thing, but the world would be better if we all followed our id’s lead re: getting bonobo all over each other on the regular.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:34 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

lol web3isgoinggreat.com's Molly White has had some things to say about the "very pro-crypto" Tom Emmer:

Emmer is a member of the "blockchain eight" who in March 2022 (pre-FTX collapse) sent a letter to the SEC to pressure them to back off on crypto investigations.

Grifters ahoy.
posted by mediareport at 10:23 AM on October 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

I guess it’s for the best the same thing will probably happen to him.
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on October 24, 2023

can we all agree that just because boebert has previously been caught being mad rutty in public that it doesn’t therefore mean that being mad rutty in public is a bad thing?

Public sex is basically forcing other people to participate in your kink without consent. It's not cool.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:58 AM on October 24, 2023 [6 favorites]

This was at Beetlejuice, it’s not exactly a Paul Reubens situation.
posted by Artw at 11:02 AM on October 24, 2023

I think that there are ways of getting mad rutty in public that can be very fun and not violate other people's boundaries, and that Boebert did not pick one of those ways, and that she is generally vile. Perhaps we can collectively agree that "mad rutty so long as consent abounds" can be great, and further agree that we probably don't need to—and won't, and flat-out can't—hash things out further on the House Speaker thread.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 11:14 AM on October 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

Nothing we discuss here is going to be any more dignified, mind.
posted by Artw at 11:22 AM on October 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

It was a stage performance of a musical. Not a movie theater.
posted by Mchelly at 11:34 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Can we at least agree that it's funny?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 11:35 AM on October 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

Tom Emmer’s bid to be speaker on verge of collapse, according to multiple GOP members
posted by Artw at 12:11 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Tom Emmer’s bid to be speaker on verge of collapse, according to multiple GOP members

In light of this new information, I would like to update my comment of two weeks ago from:

lolololol

to:

lolololololololol

posted by Flunkie at 12:19 PM on October 24, 2023 [15 favorites]

They are absolutely subjecting us to their humiliation kink.
posted by Artw at 12:23 PM on October 24, 2023 [11 favorites]

As Oliver Wendell Jones once noted (roughly paraphrased), today's voting was merely the formality before the chaos resumed, like playing the national anthem before a Cubs game.

Emmer has no route forward because the kooks demand one of their own (the ditches of social media are happily labeling Emmer a Pelosi plant, bought and paid for by George Soros, an anti-Constitutionalist traitor, a Democrat, a Deep State flunky, a Trump-hater, an America-hater, a Trojan horse for Communism and a Uniparty/WEF/BLM RINO), and the Democrats have absolutely no reason to prop Emmer up. None whatsoever. Trump knifing him minutes after the roll-call vote was merely icing on that particular cake.

And so we continue to dance.
posted by delfin at 12:24 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

And so we continue to dance.

they shoot horses, don't they? 2 - electric boogaloo
posted by pyramid termite at 12:29 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I think jacking off her boyfriend in the semi-public context of a darkened movie theater is one of the least objectionable things Boebert has done yet, and I am completely out of patience with the people who can’t stop crowing about it and seem to believe it’s some kind of ultimate gotcha.

If you or I got caught fingerblasting someone in a public theater, it would be cause for some tut-tutting, perhaps, but it would not be an ultimate gotcha.

You and I are not a Christian Nationalist Congresswoman who's among the first to blame just about all of society's ills on a decline of Traditional Moral Values and a lack of Enforced Jesus Christ in our schools and national culture.

As usual, it's not the action itself, but the screaming rules-are-for-lesser-beings hypocrisy.
posted by delfin at 1:08 PM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

Oh, it just keeps getting "better"! NYT from a couple hours ago (emphasis mine):

A majority of the two dozen or so holdouts against Tom Emmer are members of the ultraconservative House Freedom Caucus, and many of them continue to say they will vote for Representative Jim Jordan of Ohio, the hard-right chairman of the Judiciary Committee who failed to win the speakership last week.

posted by Flunkie at 1:11 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Can we end the Boebert derail (that I started)? Y'all are getting gross about it.
posted by frecklefaerie at 1:15 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Did they successfully manage to get guns allowed back in congress? I forget.
posted by Artw at 1:22 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Can we end the Boebert derail (that I started)? Y'all are getting gross about it.

okay, totally agree, but I just have to say this first about
If you or I got caught fingerblasting someone in a public theater, it would be cause for some tut-tutting, perhaps, but it would not be an ultimate gotcha.

Here we see illustrated a very tiny part of the limitless universe of what's irritating about this stupid Boebert goes to the theater story. "Fingerblasting" does not equal hand job. Fingerblasting is penetrative. Fingerblasting is not what the Boebert was doing. So, yeah, if you or whoeverelse male got caught fingerblasting somebody female in a theater, it would absolutely be a tuttut deal because cis hetero penetrative sex act with male actor = normal male behavior, maybe a little edgy, sure, but not a mark against his character. (What it says about the recipient's character is another story entirely. Because of course there is a massive double standard.) Boebert taking the active role in a public sex act warrants more than a tuttut from the human collective in large part because rules against being a big sloppy horndog and bothering people with your gross big sloppy horndoggery are for women and other people who are not cis straight white guys.
posted by Don Pepino at 1:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Love to rerail, just wish to note that, per specifically delfin's point just above re: rules for me/rules for thee, this may not be a derail at all, the way things are going, in the 7-15 weeks from now that it takes for it to become Boebert's turn to be the Republic Party's fish in the barrel/nominated candidate.
posted by riverlife at 1:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

I do support listing each candidates sex crimes and/or sex crime adjacent activities as they become the focus of the thread and I note that Matt Gaetz started this whole thing.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on October 24, 2023 [8 favorites]

WaPo: Live updates: Tom Emmer drops out hours after becoming the latest Republican pick for speaker

House Majority Whip Tom Emmer (R-Minn.) has dropped out of the speaker’s race, only about four hours after the Republican conference voted him the next speaker-designate, according to two people familiar with the decision who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss private conversations.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:39 PM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

I'm starting to think that Speaker ChatGPT might not be the worst idea.
posted by delfin at 1:52 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Gonna need images for the Pacific Rim meme here, or figure out how to do it in ASCII.
posted by Artw at 1:53 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

So now 3 of the biggest big-donor fundraisers (McCarthy, Scalise, and Emmer (as head of the NRCC)) have gotten the boot at the hands of the right wing.

Something tells me there are going to be some very interesting conversations going on behind the scenes over the next 24 hours . . .
posted by soundguy99 at 2:04 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

My (uneducated) guess is that Trump is absolutely freaking out, has told all his Congress flunkies it better be someone who will call the election for him or NOTHING (or THEIR families will be the ones getting threats). Seems the jackass caucus is unlikely to budge since they don't actually care if the government is working.
posted by Glinn at 2:04 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Possibly some of the seriousness of the occasion could be restored by having a little ceremony where each contender enters the chamber, perhaps accompanied by a classical march such as Arrival of the Gladiators.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

Public sex is basically forcing other people to participate in your kink without consent. It's not cool.

Yeah but there’s a big difference between public sex and “hey let’s get this ready for later.” Has it been confirmed there was an actual handjob happening, rather than just, you know, hands touching a penis and everyone being really fucking shocked about it? Because making out at a theater, last I checked, is not by any stretch of the imagination public sex, unless we are truly entering a new era of prudery the likes of which I do not want to even contemplate.
posted by corb at 2:36 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

We are going to make a moderator have to post a really embarrassing message here, you all know that, right?
posted by Artw at 2:38 PM on October 24, 2023 [17 favorites]

Because making out at a theater, last I checked, is not by any stretch of the imagination public sex, unless we are truly entering a new era of prudery the likes of which I do not want to even contemplate.

MAKING OUT in a theater is one thing. GIVING A HAND JOB in a theater is another thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:53 PM on October 24, 2023

According to Stefanik, the mounted knights are lined up and approaching the next windmill:

Byron Donalds (FL)
Chuck Fleischmann (TN)
Mark Green (TN)
Kevin Hern (OK)
Mike Johnson (LA)
Roger Williams (TX)

The key will be whether those who were firm against Jordan will remain firm against the likes of Donalds, enough to derail an eventual vote.
posted by delfin at 2:55 PM on October 24, 2023

We are going to make a moderator have to post a really embarrassing message here, you all know that, right?

Probably but I hope not. But I do sincerely think that as soon as this comment went live

Perhaps we can collectively agree that "mad rutty so long as consent abounds" can be great, and further agree that we probably don't need to—and won't, and flat-out can't—hash things out further on the House Speaker thread.

Somewhere, locked in a dusty chest in a deserted cave, a monkey's paw curled a finger. I think we are provoking the gods into delivering us Speaker Boebert who campaigned explicitly on the aforementioned skill set.

corb, I'm sorry to inform you there's IR video of the whole thing. In the interests of quieting things down I'm gonna rot13 this so nobody sees it without their consent (or without developing the skill of directly reading rot13d text in which case shit like this is your punishment, prometheus). Nf V erzrzore, fur qvq abg gnxr uvf jvyyl bhg naq jnf whfg qbvat bire-gur-pybgurf fgebxvat. Ur unq uvf unaqf nyy qbja ure gbc naq V guvax jnf gnxvat ure obbof bhg, cynlvat jvgu, sbe gur checbfrf bs.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:00 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

An idea that is irritating me today is the thought that none of this would be happening if the insurrectionists were expelled from Congress before the inauguration in 2021 like they should have been.
posted by ob1quixote at 3:01 PM on October 24, 2023 [9 favorites]

This all, combined with Trump telling his horde that they don't need to vote, makes it clear that the idea is to get a speaker who will appoint Trump and a Republican Congress regardless of who wins the election. It is not as amusing at it seems. I hope someone who can act on this is doing something.

I know that the link above seems incredibly stupid and hence not worth worrying about. But I would, FWIW.
posted by mumimor at 3:06 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

Nf V erzrzore, fur qvq abg gnxr uvf jvyyl bhg naq jnf whfg qbvat bire-gur-pybgurf fgebxvat. Ur unq uvf unaqf nyy qbja ure gbc naq V guvax jnf gnxvat ure obbof bhg, cynlvat jvgu, sbe gur checbfrf bs.

Alright, I feel like the bire-gur-pybgurf fgebxvat, as long as it wasn't n ivtbebhf onpx naq sbegu, doesn't count as public sex but more what we used to refer to as 'petting', but his actions do seem a bit beyond the line there.
posted by corb at 3:15 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Come for the Republican speaker antics, stay for the rot13 encrypted softcore pornography.
posted by corb at 3:16 PM on October 24, 2023 [19 favorites]

Ahem this is an all ages production of The Really Stupid Congress, there may be children present.
posted by Artw at 3:22 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

For some reason it occurred to me that if the nomination was a little blue pill, Emmer wouldn't even have had to consult a doctor.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:23 PM on October 24, 2023

telling his horde that they don't need to vote

Here's another clip from the speech that mumimor linked to.
posted by box at 3:30 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I feel like the bire-gur-pybgurf fgebxvat, as long as it wasn't n ivtbebhf onpx naq sbegu

enjoying the notion that this zombie of a derail may finally die its final unnatural death with the orthographic vibe that Boebert did the vape-and-grope routine with, specifically, Cthulhu

We are going to make a moderator have to post a really embarrassing message here, you all know that, right?

hey man i don't even work here
posted by cortex at 3:37 PM on October 24, 2023 [15 favorites]

The rules say that zombie derails can only be closed by zombie mods.
posted by Tsuga at 4:06 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]

Hey remember how everyone used to do Zalgo text and it was real funny and then Zalgo didn’t show up and we just sort of carried on? I have a theory about why the last few years have been so strange.
posted by Artw at 4:37 PM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

Y'all, can we please not relitigate the 2023 erection?
posted by Room 101 at 5:56 PM on October 24, 2023 [19 favorites]

“Livingston Lecture featuring Steve Inskeep”—Atlanta History Center, 24 October 2023

In conversation with Josie Duffy Rice

A compelling and nuanced exploration of Abraham Lincoln’s political acumen, illuminating a great politician’s strategy in a country divided—and lessons for our own disorderly present.

posted by ob1quixote at 6:00 PM on October 24, 2023

Y'all, can we please also not relitigate the many very good arguments against using rot13 here? Just stop using it, thanks. We can handle whatever smut you want to post.
posted by mediareport at 6:04 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: We can handle whatever smut you want to post.
posted by MrVisible at 6:39 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]

We can handle whatever smut you want to post.

Oh, really?
posted by loquacious at 7:02 PM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]

CBS News: Mike Johnson becomes the next GOP speaker-designee

Rep. Mike Johnson won on the final ballot for GOP speaker, defeating Rep. Byron Donalds, according to a tweet by Rep. Elise Stefanik. The vote tally is not yet clear.

Johnson, a former radio host from Louisiana, was first elected to Congress in 2016. He voted against certifying the 2020 presidential election results.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:06 PM on October 24, 2023

The record does not show him giving out any handies.
posted by Artw at 7:12 PM on October 24, 2023

Christ, Johnson didn't even win a majority in the R conference, although he has a good lead on congressmen Donalds and Other.

97 Johnson
34 Other
31 Donalds
21 Green
20 Williams
posted by ryanrs at 7:12 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

House to enter 22nd day without a speaker with a new nominee for the job [NPR]

The latest round of closed-door voting began after 8pm on Tuesday with many members absent. Of the 204 members voting, 31 cast a ballot for someone who wasn't even a declared candidate--sending a clear message that plenty of members are not satisfied with their options.

Rep. Randy Weber, R-Texas, mocked the outcome as he shared the vote totals with reporters posted up in the hallway outside the vote.

"When you see 31 people voting for other" Weber quipped. "You know, in police work they call that a clue."

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:23 PM on October 24, 2023

WAPO trying to both sides this shit: Democrats should help elect a Republican speaker
posted by Artw at 7:28 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Jeffries still leads the vote. It'd take fewer Republicans crossing the aisle to elect him.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]

Johnson? What are they trying to pull?
posted by mazola at 7:59 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

What do you mean, mazola?
posted by frecklefaerie at 8:01 PM on October 24, 2023

From a tweet I saw: Rep. Massie says of Rep. Mike Johnson (R-La.): “He's uniquely positioned to lose 30 votes on either side of the conference.”

I hope someone is mailing them all participation trophies.
posted by ctmf at 8:02 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Since Johnson is going down tomorrow anyway, does anyone have any insight into a possible shared speaker role? NBC has a piece about a possible shared McCarthy/Jordan role (and I thought I saw a tweet about Jeffries also being considered for such). Per the article, a previous arrangement was when "Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., was speaker and Rep. Katherine Clark, D-Mass., was assistant speaker" but there seems some concern about if this is constitutional as well as how it would actually operate in current times.
posted by beaning at 8:23 PM on October 24, 2023

The predicted double-speaker event!

They would be stabbing each other continuously so that would be fun.
posted by Artw at 8:35 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

Welp.

While most House Republicans had amplified Mr. Trump’s claims about the election in the aftermath of his loss, only the right flank of the caucus continued to loudly echo Mr. Trump’s fraud allegations in the days before Jan. 6, The Times found. More Republican lawmakers appeared to seek a way to placate Mr. Trump and his supporters without formally endorsing his extraordinary allegations. In formal statements justifying their votes, about three-quarters relied on the arguments of a low-profile Louisiana congressman, Representative Mike Johnson, the most important architect of the Electoral College objections.
posted by Artw at 8:40 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]

I know it's more of a British tradition, but have any of them outlasted a lettuce yet?
posted by clawsoon at 9:15 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

It's been 22 days. Liz lasted twice that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:18 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

So more like the amount of time that an avocado is ripe before it goes bad?
posted by clawsoon at 9:27 PM on October 24, 2023

I hope 30 republicans oversleep their alarms in the morning or find themselves unexpectedly called away right before the vote. They don’t have to vote for Speaker Jeffries they just need plausible deniability for their absence. Let Matt Gaetz and his pals suffer some real consequences of their attempt to hold the party hostage. Perhaps after a few days of Speaker Jeffries the GOP will be able to actually unify around a candidate that reflects the majority of their caucus.
posted by interogative mood at 10:31 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]

Johnson, a former radio host from Louisiana, was first elected to Congress in 2016. He voted against certifying the 2020 presidential election results.

When Republics send their people, they are not sending their best.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:47 AM on October 25, 2023

How about they do a shared speaker thing across the aisle. Jeffries/Johnson or whatever. One left and one right. We can call them... stereo speakers
posted by oulipian at 6:19 AM on October 25, 2023 [5 favorites]

Johnson? What are they trying to pull?

What do you mean, mazola?

I think they meant they expect the nomination to immediately go tits up.

somebody has to counteract all the dong jokes
posted by phooky at 7:05 AM on October 25, 2023 [1 favorite]

🚨NEW THREAD for today's vote🚨
posted by Rhaomi at 8:02 AM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]

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