They made cigarettes addictive; why not food?
October 19, 2023 10:35 AM Subscribe
A new study suggests that tobacco companies, who were skilled at marketing cigarettes, used similar strategies to hook people on processed foods. (WaPo Gift Link)
They jumped into processed food, changed it, then left. In America, the steepest increase in the prevalence of hyper-palatable foods occurred between 1988 and 2001 — the era when Philip Morris and R.J. Reynolds owned the world’s leading food companies. The repercussions continue to this day.
Is this a bad thing? Recently.
They jumped into processed food, changed it, then left. In America, the steepest increase in the prevalence of hyper-palatable foods occurred between 1988 and 2001 — the era when Philip Morris and R.J. Reynolds owned the world’s leading food companies. The repercussions continue to this day.
Is this a bad thing? Recently.
Sugar + Fat = $$$
posted by Fupped Duck at 11:05 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Fupped Duck at 11:05 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
between 1988 and 2001
Not that I can prove it, but this is around the period when people who are looking at old photos stop saying, "Gosh, everybody was so skinny."
(But it is also the point where people started to lay off smoking! American weight is a rich tapestry.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:14 AM on October 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
Not that I can prove it, but this is around the period when people who are looking at old photos stop saying, "Gosh, everybody was so skinny."
(But it is also the point where people started to lay off smoking! American weight is a rich tapestry.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:14 AM on October 19, 2023 [14 favorites]
As the original Addiction article points out, the tobacco-owned food companies "dominated the US food system" during the period reviewed. It doesn't surprise me that the largest food companies were the ones that had the resources to develop and market super-tasty junk, regardless of who owned them. The smaller companies followed: "by 2018, the differences in previously tobacco-owned foods and other foods had mostly disappeared [as] other companies saw what worked."
The book Sugar, Salt, Fat, cited in the Post article, is a good read if you're interested in this area.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:23 AM on October 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
The book Sugar, Salt, Fat, cited in the Post article, is a good read if you're interested in this area.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:23 AM on October 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm amazed at how much I basically don't like those tobacco company-created foods. (Kraft mac and cheese isn't too bad, but only if doctored with full fat cheese and milk, and some spices).
Part of it may be that fat costs money to produce, and low fat food doesn't taste quite real to me.
I'm fat, but it's a result of eating real food, not fake whatever. I may have dodged a bullet from no virtue of my own. I just wasn't the target audience.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Part of it may be that fat costs money to produce, and low fat food doesn't taste quite real to me.
I'm fat, but it's a result of eating real food, not fake whatever. I may have dodged a bullet from no virtue of my own. I just wasn't the target audience.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:28 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mac and Cheese with the powdered cheese was a military development.
posted by mookoz at 11:34 AM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mookoz at 11:34 AM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
The only thing I'm truly, uncontrollably addicted to is mini Resse's peanut butter cups. If I see a bag, it will be empty in short order. As a result, they are banned from my household. Or at least from my sight.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:39 AM on October 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:39 AM on October 19, 2023 [7 favorites]
My previous related comment about big food and big tobacco. Evil fuckers.
(For me, it's no Unreal Coconut chocolates in the house. ESPECIALLY not the giant Costco bag.)
posted by Glinn at 11:49 AM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
(For me, it's no Unreal Coconut chocolates in the house. ESPECIALLY not the giant Costco bag.)
posted by Glinn at 11:49 AM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm amazed at how much I basically don't like those tobacco company-created foods.
Every six months or so, when I've had a rough time -- like this past week, in fact -- I get a bag of hot nonsense junk food and eat it with something nominally healthy for dinner. I enjoy it, and then as soon as I'm done, I experience the profound bloat and regret that reminds me why I don't do it more often. (This time it was Utz Party Mix, but it could have been worse, i.e. Puffcorn.)
The thing is, though -- afterwards, I sure do not want to eat any more for a while. This isn't the same thing as real, healthy satiety, but when people can't get anything else, it will quiet the hunger signals. Vegetables won't do that, and nor will healthy servings of healthy fats, at least not until your body has adjusted to a different way of eating. And those are more expensive and usually take some preparation.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
Every six months or so, when I've had a rough time -- like this past week, in fact -- I get a bag of hot nonsense junk food and eat it with something nominally healthy for dinner. I enjoy it, and then as soon as I'm done, I experience the profound bloat and regret that reminds me why I don't do it more often. (This time it was Utz Party Mix, but it could have been worse, i.e. Puffcorn.)
The thing is, though -- afterwards, I sure do not want to eat any more for a while. This isn't the same thing as real, healthy satiety, but when people can't get anything else, it will quiet the hunger signals. Vegetables won't do that, and nor will healthy servings of healthy fats, at least not until your body has adjusted to a different way of eating. And those are more expensive and usually take some preparation.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:54 AM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
(the little bastards I can't have around are the Trader Joe's knockoff M&Ms, which probably are made by Unreal. Unreal is really good and it's probably for the best that I don't see it around all that often. Now I mostly eat sugar-free candy, which limits consumption because if you eat too much ...)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:57 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 11:57 AM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Read the link this morning and was floored by the evil:
...hyper-palatable foods have a lot in common with addictive substances. They contain ingredients from naturally occurring plants and foods that have been purified, concentrated and transformed into products that are quickly absorbed into our bloodstreams, which amplifies their ability to light up reward centers in our brains.
The stuff about the Lunchables "blood pressure bomb" is just awful, and the part about yogurt in the article's 2013 NYT Mag link [ungated] is even worse: "The company’s Yoplait brand had transformed traditional unsweetened breakfast yogurt into a veritable dessert. It now had twice as much sugar per serving as General Mills’ marshmallow cereal Lucky Charms."
The repeated pattern in the move from tobacco to food is so clear; thanks for posting this.
posted by mediareport at 12:09 PM on October 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
...hyper-palatable foods have a lot in common with addictive substances. They contain ingredients from naturally occurring plants and foods that have been purified, concentrated and transformed into products that are quickly absorbed into our bloodstreams, which amplifies their ability to light up reward centers in our brains.
The stuff about the Lunchables "blood pressure bomb" is just awful, and the part about yogurt in the article's 2013 NYT Mag link [ungated] is even worse: "The company’s Yoplait brand had transformed traditional unsweetened breakfast yogurt into a veritable dessert. It now had twice as much sugar per serving as General Mills’ marshmallow cereal Lucky Charms."
The repeated pattern in the move from tobacco to food is so clear; thanks for posting this.
posted by mediareport at 12:09 PM on October 19, 2023 [18 favorites]
And that last paragraph, whew:
Fazzino’s new study found that by 2018, the differences in previously tobacco-owned foods and other foods had mostly disappeared. It’s not that foods got healthier, Fazzino said, but that other companies saw what worked and many products likely were reformulated to make them just as hyper-palatable as those sold by their competitors.
posted by mediareport at 12:10 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Fazzino’s new study found that by 2018, the differences in previously tobacco-owned foods and other foods had mostly disappeared. It’s not that foods got healthier, Fazzino said, but that other companies saw what worked and many products likely were reformulated to make them just as hyper-palatable as those sold by their competitors.
posted by mediareport at 12:10 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here's a chart of the increase in number of adults who were overweight from 1975 from 2016:
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=~USA
I can't see any massive increase in the slope of the line for the period 1988-end, which is the "big tobacco" period.
posted by Galvanic at 12:11 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-of-adults-who-are-overweight?tab=chart&country=~USA
I can't see any massive increase in the slope of the line for the period 1988-end, which is the "big tobacco" period.
posted by Galvanic at 12:11 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of my dirtiest secrets and guilty pleasures is that when I get sick (like cold or flu sick) is that I absolutely crave McDonald's, and it's like the absolute last thing I should be eating and I regret it every damn time. I just want a bag of vaguely warm, mushy cheeseburgers or McDoubles, some fries and a shake. It's like a comfy pillow for my eating hole or something.
I haven't had any McDonald's in well over a year. I think the last time I did it was after getting a tooth pulled.
OTOH, when I'm sick I also crave some crazy hot Thai food and will order a 6-7 star spicy phad thai even though their menu only goes to like 5. Yes, you heard me right. Please hurt me. I want all five of my face holes to burn and leak. Make me see God.
posted by loquacious at 12:15 PM on October 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
I haven't had any McDonald's in well over a year. I think the last time I did it was after getting a tooth pulled.
OTOH, when I'm sick I also crave some crazy hot Thai food and will order a 6-7 star spicy phad thai even though their menu only goes to like 5. Yes, you heard me right. Please hurt me. I want all five of my face holes to burn and leak. Make me see God.
posted by loquacious at 12:15 PM on October 19, 2023 [10 favorites]
As we saw in some of the back-and-forth in the Jamie Oliver thread, this business of creating nutritionally empty but hyperpalatable--and, importantly, hyperaffordable--foods, has really dug us into a hole when it comes to the discourse around nutrition, class, poverty and health. (That is, what will people be able to afford to eat if the cheapest foods are being designed by actual evil monsters to be addictive and ubiquitous?)
On a personal level, I am constantly amazed by the power of this food. I usually have a cheat day or weekend with my current eating plan, and I feel so bad physically when I overdo things like Doritos, to the point that I'm like, do I even like these chips? And yet liking or not liking seems almost irrelevant to the process; they are there, they provide some kind of sharp repeatable stimulus, and I'm like those lab rats pressing the cocaine button. It's so gross! And unhealthy! And yet you can get such a huge bag of them!!! Agh!
posted by mittens at 12:18 PM on October 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
On a personal level, I am constantly amazed by the power of this food. I usually have a cheat day or weekend with my current eating plan, and I feel so bad physically when I overdo things like Doritos, to the point that I'm like, do I even like these chips? And yet liking or not liking seems almost irrelevant to the process; they are there, they provide some kind of sharp repeatable stimulus, and I'm like those lab rats pressing the cocaine button. It's so gross! And unhealthy! And yet you can get such a huge bag of them!!! Agh!
posted by mittens at 12:18 PM on October 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
I thought this was known like 15 years ago how they engineer the salt/fat/sweet profile to make food hit the bliss point - delicious but not able to satiate (because then you’d stop eating).
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:23 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:23 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
This series of articles at slimemoldtimemold provides some fascinating information about the obesity epidemic and possible causes. It's very much evidence-based, and the author cites many studies when examining different possible causes. Hyperpalatable foods gets a mention, although the author does not find compelling evidence that it is more than a contributing cause.
posted by riotnrrd at 12:24 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by riotnrrd at 12:24 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mac and Cheese with the powdered cheese was a military development.
Surely a violation of the Geneva Convention.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:30 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Surely a violation of the Geneva Convention.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:30 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
A potato, that's food. A pepper. A melon. An apple. Sprouted seeds.
Anything that has ingredients, it's not food. Food doesn't have ingredients. Food *is* the ingredient
Along with the trick that everyone knows -- put milk furthest away from the entry/exit of the grocery -- they have another great trick. I'm tall, so I can pretty easy see the items placed high, but the only other healthy items -- usually brown rice, for example -- the only other healthy items are placed low, I find myself on my knees to locate it.
But even the brown rice, black beans, pinto beans, god only knows what kinds of poison they've been sprayed with; generally if you want poison free rice and beans and lentils etc you're going to buy it in bulk, in the section which has birkenstok sandal wearing citizens.
Just for fun, notice that at your eye level is all of the "food" in bright plastic wrap; same thing as a fishing lure, make it sparkle and they'll jump for it. All potato chips corn chips "soft drinks", other garbage, it's right at hand, eye level.
~~~~~
If I'm out, and hungry, look for my pickup in a MadDonalds "restaurant." I entered into the covid nightmare with a perfectly clean diet -- no more. Dominos pizza, the worst for me, my weakest link, they'll deliver cholestoral right to my door; they've got this one special, two medium pizzas,, extra sausage extra mushrooms, 29 dollars, and that's a five dollar tip for the driver. I pretend I'm healthy, I tell them that I'm "no contact", they leave it on my doorstep. What it really is, is shame.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:31 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anything that has ingredients, it's not food. Food doesn't have ingredients. Food *is* the ingredient
Along with the trick that everyone knows -- put milk furthest away from the entry/exit of the grocery -- they have another great trick. I'm tall, so I can pretty easy see the items placed high, but the only other healthy items -- usually brown rice, for example -- the only other healthy items are placed low, I find myself on my knees to locate it.
But even the brown rice, black beans, pinto beans, god only knows what kinds of poison they've been sprayed with; generally if you want poison free rice and beans and lentils etc you're going to buy it in bulk, in the section which has birkenstok sandal wearing citizens.
Just for fun, notice that at your eye level is all of the "food" in bright plastic wrap; same thing as a fishing lure, make it sparkle and they'll jump for it. All potato chips corn chips "soft drinks", other garbage, it's right at hand, eye level.
~~~~~
If I'm out, and hungry, look for my pickup in a MadDonalds "restaurant." I entered into the covid nightmare with a perfectly clean diet -- no more. Dominos pizza, the worst for me, my weakest link, they'll deliver cholestoral right to my door; they've got this one special, two medium pizzas,, extra sausage extra mushrooms, 29 dollars, and that's a five dollar tip for the driver. I pretend I'm healthy, I tell them that I'm "no contact", they leave it on my doorstep. What it really is, is shame.
posted by dancestoblue at 12:31 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
So slimemoldtimemold's theory is problematic and as far as I know, they have never responded to this criticism.
(There is a bigger picture criticism where we step back and ask, how likely is it that a bunch of amateurs find the answer where a large group of motivated researchers have not... it does happen but very infrequently. Something that troubles me about SMTM and fellow travellers is I am extremely familiar with the phenomenon of educated people wandering far outside their discipline in the belief that their intellectual prowess will give them novel insights and coming to wrong conclusions that no one in the other discipline would entertain).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:54 PM on October 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
(There is a bigger picture criticism where we step back and ask, how likely is it that a bunch of amateurs find the answer where a large group of motivated researchers have not... it does happen but very infrequently. Something that troubles me about SMTM and fellow travellers is I am extremely familiar with the phenomenon of educated people wandering far outside their discipline in the belief that their intellectual prowess will give them novel insights and coming to wrong conclusions that no one in the other discipline would entertain).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 12:54 PM on October 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
The period described in this article coincided with a significant increase in obesity in the US population. The National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey shows that from 1980 to 2000, obesity prevalence among all American adults rose from 15.0% to 23.2% (1980–1994) and to 30.9% by 2000. The rise in obesity was even more pronounced among Blacks and Mexican Americans who started with higher prevalence in the late 1970s (31.6% among Blacks and 26.6% among Mexican Americans vs 15.4% among Whites), and rapidly grew to 53.9% among Blacks and 42.3% among Mexican Americans versus 30.2% among Whites by 2003 to 2004. (Transferring Racial/Ethnic Marketing Strategies From Tobacco to Food Corporations: Philip Morris and Kraft General Foods [Am J Public Health. 2020 Mar]) Through centralized marketing initiatives, Philip Morris Companies directly transferred expertise, personnel, and resources from its tobacco to its food subsidiaries, creating a racial/ethnic minority-targeted food and beverage marketing program modeled on its successful cigarette program. When Philip Morris Companies sold Kraft General Foods in 2007, Kraft General Foods had a "fully integrated" minority marketing program that combined target marketing with racial/ethnic events promotion, racial/ethnic media outreach, and corporate donations to racial/ethnic leadership groups, making it a food industry leader.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nutrition is one of those areas of research where most of the funding comes from industry. Which means it is really hard to find truly independent research. Think about it: if you are studying nutrition, your best professors may be funded by industry, your career options will be within the industry or funded by industry, and your literature will be influenced by industry. It's just really hard to get relevant research in a field like that.
I don't know if you all will see this as a sub-field or a separate field, but a good example of that problem is diabetes research. This is a huge industry, and the profits are incredible. They find the very best scientists for their research and pay them much better than universities or hospitals can afford. They do actually support a tiny group of researchers who study lifestyle or food intake approaches to diabetes. But by far the most of their R&D ressources go to developing new medications, not finding the causes of obesity. And that is fair and fine, that's what they are there for. But public research should go other places and get equal funding. Which is rare. For instance, most national research committees will include industry members, to "keep in touch" with industry needs.
And even the best scientists rely on industry funding for some part of their research, because government funding is so limited.
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't know if you all will see this as a sub-field or a separate field, but a good example of that problem is diabetes research. This is a huge industry, and the profits are incredible. They find the very best scientists for their research and pay them much better than universities or hospitals can afford. They do actually support a tiny group of researchers who study lifestyle or food intake approaches to diabetes. But by far the most of their R&D ressources go to developing new medications, not finding the causes of obesity. And that is fair and fine, that's what they are there for. But public research should go other places and get equal funding. Which is rare. For instance, most national research committees will include industry members, to "keep in touch" with industry needs.
And even the best scientists rely on industry funding for some part of their research, because government funding is so limited.
posted by mumimor at 1:19 PM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
So slimemoldtimemold's theory is problematic and as far as I know, they have never responded to this criticism.
They've never responded to much of their criticism - apparently their stats about animal weight gain are wrong and most dieticians disagree that the net increase in daily calories that they present as incidental are not more than enough to explain weight gain. A net increase potentially driven by this kind of addictive eating response research.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:20 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
They've never responded to much of their criticism - apparently their stats about animal weight gain are wrong and most dieticians disagree that the net increase in daily calories that they present as incidental are not more than enough to explain weight gain. A net increase potentially driven by this kind of addictive eating response research.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:20 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
One of my dirtiest secrets and guilty pleasures is that when I get sick (like cold or flu sick) is that I absolutely crave McDonald's
When I was throwing a tantrum as a child and my parents needed to bribe me, they bribed me with McDonald's. As an adult, it's my go-to for when I'm feeling emotionally terrible.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:31 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I was throwing a tantrum as a child and my parents needed to bribe me, they bribed me with McDonald's. As an adult, it's my go-to for when I'm feeling emotionally terrible.
posted by tofu_crouton at 1:31 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
One more vote for McDonald's. Every time I go to IKEA, I go to McDonalds. It's a ritual. And then I feel sick to my bones. But I still do it, I just did it a month ago. I usually get a happy meal with a cheeseburger. There's just something about the bland, salty sugariness that is wonderful and heartwarming. Still, the world would be a better place without them, and my own homemade burgers are so much better there is no scale to measure it on.
posted by mumimor at 1:35 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mumimor at 1:35 PM on October 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
We are far from a representative sample. About 1/8 of calories consumed by Americans comes from fast food.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:53 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:53 PM on October 19, 2023
Between this thread and the Jamie Oliver thread and as someone who's been fat, skinny, fat, skinny and now fat again (and full of annoyed loathing about it) - I am constantly amazed at the amount of morality and "goodness" wrapped up in food choices, nutrition and the like. I shouldn't be, but I always am.
I eat and drink a lot of guilty pleasures and I always feel terrible about it and say "why? I don't even feel great after this" and yet nevertheless there I am again eating from a sadness bowl. (and it's not like I don't know how to cook!)
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
I eat and drink a lot of guilty pleasures and I always feel terrible about it and say "why? I don't even feel great after this" and yet nevertheless there I am again eating from a sadness bowl. (and it's not like I don't know how to cook!)
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [12 favorites]
Every time I go to IKEA, I go to McDonalds. It's a ritual. And then I feel sick to my bones. But I still do it, I just did it a month ago. I usually get a happy meal with a cheeseburger. There's just something about the bland, salty sugariness that is wonderful and heartwarming.
Here, on the rare occasions I go to an Ikea, I eat at their cafeteria which is entirely bland, salty sugariness as well. Comfort food is a funny thing.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here, on the rare occasions I go to an Ikea, I eat at their cafeteria which is entirely bland, salty sugariness as well. Comfort food is a funny thing.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:56 PM on October 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anything that has ingredients, it's not food. Food doesn't have ingredients. Food *is* the ingredient
Everyone's personal definition is their personal definition, so no judgment, but this makes no sense to me. Is bread not a food? How about soup, or spaghetti? Complex baked desserts with long lists of ingredients? Marzipan?
posted by Dip Flash at 1:59 PM on October 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
Everyone's personal definition is their personal definition, so no judgment, but this makes no sense to me. Is bread not a food? How about soup, or spaghetti? Complex baked desserts with long lists of ingredients? Marzipan?
posted by Dip Flash at 1:59 PM on October 19, 2023 [23 favorites]
"The company’s Yoplait brand had transformed traditional unsweetened breakfast yogurt into a veritable dessert. It now had twice as much sugar per serving as General Mills’ marshmallow cereal Lucky Charms."
You know, as a kid I was always into Dannon and never liked Yoplait specifically because it was pre-mixed and so sweet.
Food doesn't have ingredients.
That is... not correct, or true, at all. By almost any definition.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:09 PM on October 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
You know, as a kid I was always into Dannon and never liked Yoplait specifically because it was pre-mixed and so sweet.
Food doesn't have ingredients.
That is... not correct, or true, at all. By almost any definition.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:09 PM on October 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
Sorry, but if you're not eating huge blocks of salt and licking solid calcium, you're not actually eating food.
For iron, I swallow nails.
posted by sagc at 2:11 PM on October 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
For iron, I swallow nails.
posted by sagc at 2:11 PM on October 19, 2023 [25 favorites]
I like to lick pure sodium metal. It's pleasantly fizzy.
posted by loquacious at 2:14 PM on October 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by loquacious at 2:14 PM on October 19, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think the most evil one to me, which predates this era but feels of a piece with its approach, is that Oreos taste good but have a sort of bitter, funky aftertaste to me. But wait, I have something that tastes good right here so I won't taste the Oreo aftertaste anymore... additional Oreos!
It took me until my mid thirties to realize that was why I never manage to eat just one Oreo. Once I figured it out it lost its power.
A lot of the article was just about marketing though. Which, like, I guess maybe it's because I never grew up in a world without high-sugar food marketed to children, but it feels to me like part of growing up is learning to understand when you're being pandered to. Like, ooh, so evil, marketing unhealthy snacks to children using a cartoon mascot! Big deal. What am I missing here?
posted by potrzebie at 2:16 PM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
It took me until my mid thirties to realize that was why I never manage to eat just one Oreo. Once I figured it out it lost its power.
A lot of the article was just about marketing though. Which, like, I guess maybe it's because I never grew up in a world without high-sugar food marketed to children, but it feels to me like part of growing up is learning to understand when you're being pandered to. Like, ooh, so evil, marketing unhealthy snacks to children using a cartoon mascot! Big deal. What am I missing here?
posted by potrzebie at 2:16 PM on October 19, 2023 [5 favorites]
Explains why so many Americans are obese.
UCSF Food Industry documents.
posted by Ideefixe at 2:27 PM on October 19, 2023
UCSF Food Industry documents.
posted by Ideefixe at 2:27 PM on October 19, 2023
In the wake of a week and a half episode of ICU delerium which was basically indistinguishable from psychosis, I developed an obsession with a natural food imitation of Cheetos (“Bearitos") which lasted almost exactly a calendar year and saw me eat an average of ~$90 a month of Bearitos, and was so out of my control that my partner was forced to keep the reserve supply in her car.
I also ate 1 to 3 ham and cheese omelets at least six days a week and 4 or 5 oz. of candied papaya spears every day for the same period.
My point is that the credulity of psychosis lends itself to uncontrollable junk food cravings inspired by advertising (as mine was), and that given the meteoric rise of popular paranoia and conspiracy theory thinking which has resulted in almost a third of the US reaching almost clinically diagnosable levels, we can’t be too surprised that we’re all eating a lot of junk food and gaining weight.
It's not clear to me whether there was a positive feedback loop between the food and paranoid ideation in my own case, but I don’t rule it out.
posted by jamjam at 2:33 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I also ate 1 to 3 ham and cheese omelets at least six days a week and 4 or 5 oz. of candied papaya spears every day for the same period.
My point is that the credulity of psychosis lends itself to uncontrollable junk food cravings inspired by advertising (as mine was), and that given the meteoric rise of popular paranoia and conspiracy theory thinking which has resulted in almost a third of the US reaching almost clinically diagnosable levels, we can’t be too surprised that we’re all eating a lot of junk food and gaining weight.
It's not clear to me whether there was a positive feedback loop between the food and paranoid ideation in my own case, but I don’t rule it out.
posted by jamjam at 2:33 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've always known that for me, obesity has always been linked with mental health issues. I just can't point a finger at how or why. Once an army doctor told me that food insecurity as a child was a direct indicator of adult obesity as a result of PTSD, which fits me like a glove, but I haven't been able to find any research-based knowledge. If anyone can direct me to a source, I'd be grateful. (That doctor has passed away, a decade ago).
posted by mumimor at 2:43 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 2:43 PM on October 19, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'm also a vaguely guilty McDonald's eater, probably on average about once a month or so, and I know exactly why: when I'm PMSing, or when I'm post-migraine--aka times I'm ravenously hungry and not up for actually cooking because the window of time between ravenously hungry and nauseously hungry is small and rapidly shrinking--nothing hits like McDonalds, or sometimes Jack in the Box. I don't feel terrible afterwards, but there's definitely an odd kind of emptiness to the post-fast food satiety. Like, it doesn't last that long.
And there's for sure something else going on when I crave/eat those ultra-processed, sugary foods. Like, I can have the high-protein, low-sugar yogurt and a banana as a snack, or some nuts and a piece of cheese, and this is filling and reasonably healthy and tasty. Like, none of these things are punishing, grim "diet" food choices. These snacks will do the job and I will enjoy them. But the experience of having something ultra-processed instead goes straight to a whole other part of my brain that is far more concerned with immediate rewards, and it hits in a much more visceral yet hollow way. It's weird. I'm aware it's bad for me. But, like, I still eat the ultra-processed foods! In moderation, sure, but good god is it clear to see how easy it would be to be immoderate about it.
posted by yasaman at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
And there's for sure something else going on when I crave/eat those ultra-processed, sugary foods. Like, I can have the high-protein, low-sugar yogurt and a banana as a snack, or some nuts and a piece of cheese, and this is filling and reasonably healthy and tasty. Like, none of these things are punishing, grim "diet" food choices. These snacks will do the job and I will enjoy them. But the experience of having something ultra-processed instead goes straight to a whole other part of my brain that is far more concerned with immediate rewards, and it hits in a much more visceral yet hollow way. It's weird. I'm aware it's bad for me. But, like, I still eat the ultra-processed foods! In moderation, sure, but good god is it clear to see how easy it would be to be immoderate about it.
posted by yasaman at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
My takeaway is that I don’t have to feel bad about wanting Lucky Charms instead of yogurt. Late night cereal is my secret shame. Typically a base layer of Raisin Bran or mini wheats topped with lucky charms or Golden Grahams. Two big bowls of that, like 6 servings probably. Now I’m guilty and hungry at the same time …
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on October 19, 2023 [4 favorites]
The ultimate theme of Salt Sugar Fat: How the Food Giants Hooked Us is that corporate nutritionists really could come up with reasonably healthy processed food packages which were also profitable for their companies, but these companies were bought out by larger companies, whose shareholders killed these projects because they could nickel a slightly more profitable margin by selling crap instead.
posted by ovvl at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 4:47 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just for fun, notice that at your eye level is all of the "food" in bright plastic wrap; same thing as a fishing lure, make it sparkle and they'll jump for it. All potato chips corn chips "soft drinks", other garbage, it's right at hand, eye level.
Yes, and those junk food products are there at eye level because companies pay slotting, "pay-to-stay", and display fees to many supermarkets in order to get that prime space.
It's the cost of doing business, which to the big companies is chump change, but to the small food companies is impossible to compete with.
posted by jeremias at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2023
Yes, and those junk food products are there at eye level because companies pay slotting, "pay-to-stay", and display fees to many supermarkets in order to get that prime space.
It's the cost of doing business, which to the big companies is chump change, but to the small food companies is impossible to compete with.
posted by jeremias at 6:17 PM on October 19, 2023
Dark Chocolate Tart
CRUST INGREDIENTS:
* 2 cups almond flour (a.k.a. almond meal)
* 1/4 cup unsweetened cocoa powder
* 1/4 cup melted coconut oil (or butter)
* 3 tablespoons maple syrup
* 1/2 teaspoon fine sea salt
CHOCOLATE FILLING INGREDIENTS:
* 1 1/2 cups coconut milk*
* 1 pound (16 ounces) dark chocolate*, roughly-chopped
* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
* 1/4 teaspoon fine sea salt
* topping: flaky sea salt
To Make The Crust:
Preheat oven to 350°F. Stir together crust ingredients in a bowl until evenly combined. Press the crust mixture evenly into the bottom of a 9-inch tart pan (or pie dish). Bake for 12 minutes, or until it begins to feel dry and firm. Remove from the oven and transfer to a wire rack to cool.
To Make The Chocolate Filling:
Meanwhile, as the crust is baking, heat the coconut milk on the stovetop or in the microwave until simmering. Place the dark chocolate in a bowl, and pour the coconut milk evenly over the top of it. Wait 30 seconds, then slowly stir together until the chocolate is completely melted and smooth. Stir in the vanilla extract and salt until combined.
Pour the chocolate filling into the baked crust, and smooth the top with a spoon until it is even. Refrigerate for at least 2 hours, or until firm.
Serve chilled, sprinkled with flaky sea salt.
Enjoy.
posted by valkane at 9:59 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
CRUST INGREDIENTS:
* 2 cups almond flour (a.k.a. almond meal)
* 1/4 cup unsweetened cocoa powder
* 1/4 cup melted coconut oil (or butter)
* 3 tablespoons maple syrup
* 1/2 teaspoon fine sea salt
CHOCOLATE FILLING INGREDIENTS:
* 1 1/2 cups coconut milk*
* 1 pound (16 ounces) dark chocolate*, roughly-chopped
* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
* 1/4 teaspoon fine sea salt
* topping: flaky sea salt
To Make The Crust:
Preheat oven to 350°F. Stir together crust ingredients in a bowl until evenly combined. Press the crust mixture evenly into the bottom of a 9-inch tart pan (or pie dish). Bake for 12 minutes, or until it begins to feel dry and firm. Remove from the oven and transfer to a wire rack to cool.
To Make The Chocolate Filling:
Meanwhile, as the crust is baking, heat the coconut milk on the stovetop or in the microwave until simmering. Place the dark chocolate in a bowl, and pour the coconut milk evenly over the top of it. Wait 30 seconds, then slowly stir together until the chocolate is completely melted and smooth. Stir in the vanilla extract and salt until combined.
Pour the chocolate filling into the baked crust, and smooth the top with a spoon until it is even. Refrigerate for at least 2 hours, or until firm.
Serve chilled, sprinkled with flaky sea salt.
Enjoy.
posted by valkane at 9:59 PM on October 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
LUXURY HAS ARRIVED in the yogurt aisle: Häagen-Dazs Cultured Crème Yogurt Style Snack
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:47 PM on October 19, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:47 PM on October 19, 2023
Could you genetically engineer healthy foods to be "hyper-palatable" and still healthy? Like broccoli that people can't get enough of? Or is there no faking the pleasure you get from eating real sugar, salt, and fat?
posted by pracowity at 12:41 AM on October 20, 2023
posted by pracowity at 12:41 AM on October 20, 2023
"Or is there no faking the pleasure you get from eating real sugar, salt, and fat?"
There's always cheese sauce, and some reason to think fat helps people digest the vitamins in vegetables, though I think that might be just raw vegetables.
Speaking for myself, I frequently have a preference for enough calories per mouthful.
We Have Only Recently Acknowledged that Female Athletes Need to Eat, which gets into that topic, and expands into the weird American relationship with food and simple-minded optimization.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:13 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
There's always cheese sauce, and some reason to think fat helps people digest the vitamins in vegetables, though I think that might be just raw vegetables.
Speaking for myself, I frequently have a preference for enough calories per mouthful.
We Have Only Recently Acknowledged that Female Athletes Need to Eat, which gets into that topic, and expands into the weird American relationship with food and simple-minded optimization.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 1:13 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Other food industry shadiness: this 23 minute Kiana Docherty video and this Washington Post article (archive) talk about how the food industry is paying influencer dieticians.
In all, at least 35 posts from a dozen health professionals were part of the coordinated campaign by American Beverage. The trade group paid an undisclosed amount to 10 registered dietitians, as well as a physician and a fitness influencer, to use their social media accounts to help blunt the WHO’s claims that aspartame, a mainstay of Diet Coke and other sodas, is ineffective for weight loss and “possibly carcinogenic.”...posted by TheophileEscargot at 3:19 AM on October 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
The food, beverage and dietary supplement industries are paying dozens of registered dietitians that collectively have millions of social media followers to help sell products and deliver industry-friendly messages on Instagram and TikTok, according to an analysis by The Washington Post and The Examination, a new nonprofit newsroom specializing in global public health reporting.
The analysis of thousands of posts found that companies and industry groups paid dietitians for content that encouraged viewers to eat candy and ice cream, downplayed the health risks of highly processed foods and pushed unproven supplements — messages that run counter to decades of scientific evidence about healthy eating.
So what does all this hyperpalatable food actually have to do with obesity? I mean, just because a chip or a cookie or a slice of boxed frozen lasagna is really tasty, why does that necessarily lead to a Nation In Crisis?
There are a lot of theories there, trying to pinpoint a single culprit ingredient...and here is a new theory, published a couple of days ago! "Fructose is unique in resetting ATP levels to a lower level in the cell as a consequence of suppressing mitochondrial function, while blocking the replacement of ATP from fat. The low intracellular ATP levels result in carbohydrate-dependent hunger, impaired satiety (leptin resistance), and metabolic effects that result in the increased intake of energy-dense fats." (The fructose survival hypothesis as a mechanism for unifying the various obesity hypotheses.)
posted by mittens at 4:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are a lot of theories there, trying to pinpoint a single culprit ingredient...and here is a new theory, published a couple of days ago! "Fructose is unique in resetting ATP levels to a lower level in the cell as a consequence of suppressing mitochondrial function, while blocking the replacement of ATP from fat. The low intracellular ATP levels result in carbohydrate-dependent hunger, impaired satiety (leptin resistance), and metabolic effects that result in the increased intake of energy-dense fats." (The fructose survival hypothesis as a mechanism for unifying the various obesity hypotheses.)
posted by mittens at 4:51 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Serve chilled, sprinkled with flaky sea salt.
The dark chocolate tart sounds delicious but this is how I knew it was all a trap set up by my cardiologist.
I have become the Admiral Ackbar of recipes.
posted by biffa at 5:39 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
The dark chocolate tart sounds delicious but this is how I knew it was all a trap set up by my cardiologist.
I have become the Admiral Ackbar of recipes.
posted by biffa at 5:39 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Iris Gambol: tbh those look pretty delicious, but I don't aim to buy them because if I want fancy yogurt, I can get Oui and keep the little jar for kitchen prep. Or maybe get one of those bars that tastes exactly like cheesecake. I notice Haagen-Dazs avoids calling them "yogurt," but whether it's for legal or branding reasons I couldn't say.
There are a lot of theories there, trying to pinpoint a single culprit ingredient...and here is a new theory, published a couple of days ago! "Fructose is unique in resetting ATP levels ...
I can't load this article for some reason. Even if it's entirely scholarly with no policy proposals or medical recommendations, I feel like, in practice, this would boil down to a fad for telling people to quit eating fruit. I know it would have to be way more complex than that, but I also know American society, so.
This morning I was listening to a podcast that talked about the "asteroid vs. volcanoes" view of dinosaur extinction as a metaphor for how societal shifts happen. That is: one slow process was going to lead to a certain result, but then a sudden unexpected one caused it immediately. I bring this up because I think, if we ever do figure it out, American obesity will involve volcanoes (the factors somehow raising weight levels worldwide) and asteroids (TBD).
posted by Countess Elena at 6:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are a lot of theories there, trying to pinpoint a single culprit ingredient...and here is a new theory, published a couple of days ago! "Fructose is unique in resetting ATP levels ...
I can't load this article for some reason. Even if it's entirely scholarly with no policy proposals or medical recommendations, I feel like, in practice, this would boil down to a fad for telling people to quit eating fruit. I know it would have to be way more complex than that, but I also know American society, so.
This morning I was listening to a podcast that talked about the "asteroid vs. volcanoes" view of dinosaur extinction as a metaphor for how societal shifts happen. That is: one slow process was going to lead to a certain result, but then a sudden unexpected one caused it immediately. I bring this up because I think, if we ever do figure it out, American obesity will involve volcanoes (the factors somehow raising weight levels worldwide) and asteroids (TBD).
posted by Countess Elena at 6:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's possible that there's some chemical or additive that has greatly contributed to obesity, but the most likely story is just that people consume more calories when food is cheap, easily available, tasty, and non-satiating. That theory got a major boost by a randomized study that put people in a lab and gave them two different diets - one processed and one not. Crucially, "Each diet contained the exact same quantity of calories, sugars, fiber, fat, salt and carbohydrates." People ate more when offered the processed food and gained more weight.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 6:52 AM on October 20, 2023 [8 favorites]
I thought that theory was disproven by studies that show the link between calories and quantity and obesity is not clear cut?
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:58 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is absolutely, positively no debate about the fact that changes in body weight is completely determined by the difference between calories in and calories out. That does not mean that all food is the same: The determinants of calories in is quite complicated and related to what you eat, as is (to a lesser extent) calories out. Details.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 7:40 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I thought that theory was disproven by studies that show the link between calories and quantity and obesity is not clear cut?
The studies show that X number of calories in for a specific person don't necessarily increase weight - there are too many factors - but the theory is actually that most people are getting approximately 200-300 (approximately 10% for a 2000 calorie diet) excess calories per day which would lead to regular weight gain in most people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2023
The studies show that X number of calories in for a specific person don't necessarily increase weight - there are too many factors - but the theory is actually that most people are getting approximately 200-300 (approximately 10% for a 2000 calorie diet) excess calories per day which would lead to regular weight gain in most people.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:45 AM on October 20, 2023
Mr. Know-it-some, that Wapo link is fantastic, thank you for sharing it. There is so much going on in that phrase "minimally satiating!"
posted by mittens at 7:50 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mittens at 7:50 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Two things stood out to me looking at the study of processed v unprocessed food. The first was that the processed food all had to be supplemented by fiber added to the diet lemonade or milk, depending on the meal. In some cases, there was 5 or 6 drinks on the tray to match the amount of fiber in the unprocessed meal. I know it's harder to find processed food that have equal amount of fiber in them, but I wish they hadn't had to just throw fiber in by drink. I feel like that complicates the meal comparisons.
Second was that the processed meals were cheaper "The weekly cost for ingredients to prepare 2,000 kcal/day of ultra-processed meals was estimated to be $106 versus $151 for the unprocessed meals as calculated using the cost of ingredients obtained from a local branch of a large supermarket chain." That really sucks. I would love to see how this prices out in a country that doesn't subsides corn and wheat.
posted by lizjohn at 8:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Second was that the processed meals were cheaper "The weekly cost for ingredients to prepare 2,000 kcal/day of ultra-processed meals was estimated to be $106 versus $151 for the unprocessed meals as calculated using the cost of ingredients obtained from a local branch of a large supermarket chain." That really sucks. I would love to see how this prices out in a country that doesn't subsides corn and wheat.
posted by lizjohn at 8:29 AM on October 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
This study had a bit of information on the price of ultra-processed food in a couple of different countries. It still gets eaten even when it's more expensive though.
In Brazil, a positive relationship between family income and consumption of ultra-processed products was reported. However in Canada, differences in the energy share of ultra-processed products between income groups were very small, ranging from 60·3 % in the lower income group to 62·8 % in the upper income group (data not shown). The driving force here may be the higher relative cost of ultra-processed products in Brazil compared with Canada. Preliminary analysis of food expenditure surveys conducted in Brazil and the UK shows that the cost of ultra-processed products relative to other foods is much higher in Brazilposted by TheophileEscargot at 8:55 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love to see how this prices out in a country that doesn't subsides corn and wheat.
It would make virtually no difference. (Yes, I'm the president of the Tamar Haspel fan club.) That doesn't mean that subsidies aren't bad, but it's really easy and cheap to grow grain (and seed oil), so those prices are going to be very low relative to fruits and vegetables regardless. And more importantly, prices have a surprisingly small effect on food consumption. Taste and convenience are much more important, and for some reason people like Doritos more than broccoli.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:01 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
It would make virtually no difference. (Yes, I'm the president of the Tamar Haspel fan club.) That doesn't mean that subsidies aren't bad, but it's really easy and cheap to grow grain (and seed oil), so those prices are going to be very low relative to fruits and vegetables regardless. And more importantly, prices have a surprisingly small effect on food consumption. Taste and convenience are much more important, and for some reason people like Doritos more than broccoli.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:01 AM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Taste and convenience are much more important, and for some reason people like Doritos more than broccoli.
Yup. Someone upthread asked if would make broccoli as addictively tasting as junk food. To which, I say, it's even more addictively taste for me. Roasted brocc is great! But, it's 45 minutes prep and cook, and then later dishes to clean. Doritos are five minutes away at the (yup) convenience store.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yup. Someone upthread asked if would make broccoli as addictively tasting as junk food. To which, I say, it's even more addictively taste for me. Roasted brocc is great! But, it's 45 minutes prep and cook, and then later dishes to clean. Doritos are five minutes away at the (yup) convenience store.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 11:21 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another factor about ultra-processed foods is that they are designed to have a long shelf life:
The evidence now shows that UPFs are harmful not simply because they are salty, fatty, sugary and low in fibre; the processing itself is at fault. Read the ingredients list and you’ll see that most UPFs are made from commodity crops such as corn or soy deconstructed into their most basic molecules (protein isolates, refined oils and modified carbohydrates). These are then reassembled with additives to produce food in any shape or texture desired.posted by TheophileEscargot at 11:27 AM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
This manipulation of texture is a big part of the problem. UPFs are often very soft and very dry. The illusions of moisture is created with gums and oils, but the water content is low in order to improve shelf life. As a result these foods are extremely energy dense. High energy density combined with softness means you eat quickly, and bodily systems evolved over millions of years to tell you when you’re full can’t keep up.
mediareport: "the part about yogurt "
It is (nearly) fucking impossible to find yogurt that is not loaded with sugar. I like yogurt, I generally eat a small container of yogurt with my lunch, and nearly ALL of it at the store is zero fat with 12-20 grams of added sugar. I like full-fat yogurt. Sugar is added to make up for the lack of fat. I like low or no sugar yogurt. The Two Good is usually the only kind that isn't Instant Diabetes but it's not always on sale or available. The 5% milkfat Fage single-serve plain containers are pretty solid.
If I want it sweeter, I'll add some fruit on my own. I do not want multiple spoonfuls of sugar added to the mix.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:26 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
It is (nearly) fucking impossible to find yogurt that is not loaded with sugar. I like yogurt, I generally eat a small container of yogurt with my lunch, and nearly ALL of it at the store is zero fat with 12-20 grams of added sugar. I like full-fat yogurt. Sugar is added to make up for the lack of fat. I like low or no sugar yogurt. The Two Good is usually the only kind that isn't Instant Diabetes but it's not always on sale or available. The 5% milkfat Fage single-serve plain containers are pretty solid.
If I want it sweeter, I'll add some fruit on my own. I do not want multiple spoonfuls of sugar added to the mix.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:26 PM on October 20, 2023 [3 favorites]
I would love to see how this prices out in a country that doesn't subsides corn and wheat.
I was mainly complaining for my own sake! I wish fruits and vegetables were cheaper in the US - I understand there are numerous factors that go into why they are the price they are but especially while I'm in school our budget is stretched thinner than normal. I'd like more fresh, but we've been settling for frozen.
the part about yogurt Costco very briefly had full fat greek yogurt but then it went back to the no-fat. At least it's unsweetened. Maybe it only sold well in select markets.
posted by lizjohn at 12:38 PM on October 20, 2023
I was mainly complaining for my own sake! I wish fruits and vegetables were cheaper in the US - I understand there are numerous factors that go into why they are the price they are but especially while I'm in school our budget is stretched thinner than normal. I'd like more fresh, but we've been settling for frozen.
the part about yogurt Costco very briefly had full fat greek yogurt but then it went back to the no-fat. At least it's unsweetened. Maybe it only sold well in select markets.
posted by lizjohn at 12:38 PM on October 20, 2023
The Häagen-Dazs yogurt-ish snack (made from cultured cream and cultured milk, strains not specified, zero yogurt "tang" because it isn't technically yogurt), linked above:
200 calories per 4oz serving
Sugars 16g
Saturated fat 7g
Protein 4g
On Sunday I'll attempt to make yogurt in an Instant Pot. (It's privilege to have a step-saving device, easy access to recipes, a full kitchen to screw around in, & time for said screwage.) I'm aiming for less-sugary results than the average store-bought products, but I'm giving this a try primarily because I eat yogurt nearly every day and it's expensive for what it is.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:52 PM on October 20, 2023
200 calories per 4oz serving
Sugars 16g
Saturated fat 7g
Protein 4g
On Sunday I'll attempt to make yogurt in an Instant Pot. (It's privilege to have a step-saving device, easy access to recipes, a full kitchen to screw around in, & time for said screwage.) I'm aiming for less-sugary results than the average store-bought products, but I'm giving this a try primarily because I eat yogurt nearly every day and it's expensive for what it is.
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:52 PM on October 20, 2023
I finished Ultra-processed people last night - it's excellent. I went in doubtful and cautious, but I'd strongly recommend it.
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL38005464M/Ultra-Processed_People
I used to evaluate ingredients lists on 'do I understand what this does?' and 'do I recognize this as food?' but after reading it - wow - I like the definition he uses, which takes into account the motivations for a food's purpose (ie profit or food) and does a deep dive on emulsifiers that I found eye-opening. In particular, I wasn't concerned by emulsifiers on ingredient lists because I've made mayo and salad dressing and know how useful egg and mustard are at home. I learned a lot.
Fwiw, I didn't find it judgey or diet-promoting, btw, two things 'nutrition' and food writing often shed almost uncontrollably.
posted by esoteric things at 7:51 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
https://openlibrary.org/books/OL38005464M/Ultra-Processed_People
I used to evaluate ingredients lists on 'do I understand what this does?' and 'do I recognize this as food?' but after reading it - wow - I like the definition he uses, which takes into account the motivations for a food's purpose (ie profit or food) and does a deep dive on emulsifiers that I found eye-opening. In particular, I wasn't concerned by emulsifiers on ingredient lists because I've made mayo and salad dressing and know how useful egg and mustard are at home. I learned a lot.
Fwiw, I didn't find it judgey or diet-promoting, btw, two things 'nutrition' and food writing often shed almost uncontrollably.
posted by esoteric things at 7:51 PM on October 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I finished Ultra-processed people.
I thought you meant that you ate ultra-processed people.
posted by NotLost at 10:25 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought you meant that you ate ultra-processed people.
posted by NotLost at 10:25 PM on October 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nutritional psychiatrist Felice Jacka: ‘The global food system is the leading cause of early death’ The Guardian
posted by mumimor at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2023
posted by mumimor at 8:37 AM on October 21, 2023
Wow, so my earlier point that there wasn’t a giant upward leap in the 1988 plus range is just irrelevant? I see the “late stage capitalism” moral panic is still in full operation.
posted by Galvanic at 3:32 PM on October 21, 2023
posted by Galvanic at 3:32 PM on October 21, 2023
Galvanic, I thought the data here disputes your "no giant leap" theory? The obesity rate in that period doubled, based on the stats in that comment.
posted by gakiko at 2:10 AM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gakiko at 2:10 AM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Galvanic, as far as I can see from this graph, the obesity levels in the US take off in the mid-70s and then there is a new grade of development from the 00s and on. Something must have caused that development, not least the uptick at about 2000-2001? You are right that it doesn't correlate directly with 1988, though I figure that there must have been an R&D period. It does correlate with the Bush administration. Was there a deregulation that benefited the food manufacturers? I know there was during the 70s, where the curve first began growing.
I tried to find similar EU statistics because EU regulations have only tightened the last 25 years, but unsuccessfully, Eurostat is a jungle. I did find a graph from my own country that showed a growth in obesity since 1987, when they started measuring, but it is a slow steady growth with no change at 2000 (unfortunately, I didn't bookmark it). I'm guessing they didn't measure before 1987 because obesity was so rare, the curve started at almost 0% obese people.
Apart from deregulation, another correlation that fits both the seventies and the early 00s are international crises, that may have led to widespread individual stress. I know this happened to me, in a country where UPS was almost unknown in the mid-70s (we had then moved from the UK to DK), and still rare in the early 00s.
While I do believe that UPFs (and of course the manufacturers) are culprits, I mainly believe that human health is complex and can't be reduced to single causes. During the first half of the 20th century, we got really far by focusing on single causes like specific vira and bacteria, vitamin deficiencies, food availability and exercise. And then something else happened, something that couldn't be solved by focusing on one thing. Fat or carbs or sugar are not single causes of obesity, you can eliminate any of them and still get fat or thin. There must be something else. It does seem that eliminating UPFs has an effect on a statistical level, but I am fat and I almost never eat food I haven't cooked from scratch.
After WW2, we changed a lot of things all at once. We changed from walking and biking to driving cars. We changed from most people doing physical labor to most people sitting at desks or working with machines, we changed from shopping locally to shopping at big box stores, we changed from walking up stairs to using elevators or living in single story houses with garages. Our surroundings became more polluted, our produce became more homogenous, our kids became less exposed to germs. (I know, many people lived in cities before the war, but I am thinking about the majorities). For the past 20-30 years, we've seen a decline in biodiversity, and who knows what that now extinct weeds or bugs can have meant for our general health? We take a lot more drugs for everything, even when we perhaps don't need them, like antibiotics for viral flus. We know from the food industry that antibiotics affect weight in livestock across species. Birth control pills can affect weight. The obesity epidemic is probably caused by all of this at once, and we can't solve it by just taking one factor out. But it does seem that taking UPFs out can have a significant effect, if one is to believe scholars like Dr. Tulleken. And it is one of the few things on that long list that you can actually do something about yourself .
posted by mumimor at 5:00 AM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
I tried to find similar EU statistics because EU regulations have only tightened the last 25 years, but unsuccessfully, Eurostat is a jungle. I did find a graph from my own country that showed a growth in obesity since 1987, when they started measuring, but it is a slow steady growth with no change at 2000 (unfortunately, I didn't bookmark it). I'm guessing they didn't measure before 1987 because obesity was so rare, the curve started at almost 0% obese people.
Apart from deregulation, another correlation that fits both the seventies and the early 00s are international crises, that may have led to widespread individual stress. I know this happened to me, in a country where UPS was almost unknown in the mid-70s (we had then moved from the UK to DK), and still rare in the early 00s.
While I do believe that UPFs (and of course the manufacturers) are culprits, I mainly believe that human health is complex and can't be reduced to single causes. During the first half of the 20th century, we got really far by focusing on single causes like specific vira and bacteria, vitamin deficiencies, food availability and exercise. And then something else happened, something that couldn't be solved by focusing on one thing. Fat or carbs or sugar are not single causes of obesity, you can eliminate any of them and still get fat or thin. There must be something else. It does seem that eliminating UPFs has an effect on a statistical level, but I am fat and I almost never eat food I haven't cooked from scratch.
After WW2, we changed a lot of things all at once. We changed from walking and biking to driving cars. We changed from most people doing physical labor to most people sitting at desks or working with machines, we changed from shopping locally to shopping at big box stores, we changed from walking up stairs to using elevators or living in single story houses with garages. Our surroundings became more polluted, our produce became more homogenous, our kids became less exposed to germs. (I know, many people lived in cities before the war, but I am thinking about the majorities). For the past 20-30 years, we've seen a decline in biodiversity, and who knows what that now extinct weeds or bugs can have meant for our general health? We take a lot more drugs for everything, even when we perhaps don't need them, like antibiotics for viral flus. We know from the food industry that antibiotics affect weight in livestock across species. Birth control pills can affect weight. The obesity epidemic is probably caused by all of this at once, and we can't solve it by just taking one factor out. But it does seem that taking UPFs out can have a significant effect, if one is to believe scholars like Dr. Tulleken. And it is one of the few things on that long list that you can actually do something about yourself .
posted by mumimor at 5:00 AM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is absolutely, positively no debate about the fact that changes in body weight is completely determined by the difference between calories in and calories out.
It's even more complicated than calories in being difficult. Calories in vs calories out is not a great model because we have very little conscious control over calories out, and as we've already discussed conscious control over calories in is extremely hard and subject to outside influences. I don't currently have a better model than calories in vs out, but we really need a better model.
I really enjoyed Burn, which is an anthropology and biology book dressed up to look like a diet book. One of the most interesting insights (with actual citations if you want to check their claims) is the human body can ramp up or down its systems (immune, endocrine, etc) to manage its metabolism. If a person burns lots of calories in daily activities (e.g., hunting and foraging, or training for a marathon) we see that their bodies dial back other systems to make up for the calorie deficit. This is why people who buy food in a grocery store often have higher testosterone levels than people who hunt and gather their food (which was a shocking insight when I read it): with an abundance of calories the more sedentary people's bodies don't have as much pressure to dial back testosterone production (and a bunch of other things, testosterone is just an example). It's also why endurance athletes are at somewhat higher risk of infections than the average person (another big surprise): our bodies dial down our immune systems if we are burning tons of calories.
So: as we've noted before, calories in is complicated because different foods get metabolized differently, and different bodies will react differently to the same foods. And calories out is complicated because if we change our calorie expenditures via physical activity, our bodies will change expenditures on other things, and without complicated biochemical tests (the authors of Burn cite studies using drinking water marked with oxygen isotopes to measure metabolism, hardly something you can do at home) you don't know how your body is reacting.
So the old advice of eatig less and moving more is a bit like saying "sending a human into orbit is simple physics" then building a bigger trebuchet. It's not wrong, but it's not a great plan.
posted by Tehhund at 7:19 AM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's even more complicated than calories in being difficult. Calories in vs calories out is not a great model because we have very little conscious control over calories out, and as we've already discussed conscious control over calories in is extremely hard and subject to outside influences. I don't currently have a better model than calories in vs out, but we really need a better model.
I really enjoyed Burn, which is an anthropology and biology book dressed up to look like a diet book. One of the most interesting insights (with actual citations if you want to check their claims) is the human body can ramp up or down its systems (immune, endocrine, etc) to manage its metabolism. If a person burns lots of calories in daily activities (e.g., hunting and foraging, or training for a marathon) we see that their bodies dial back other systems to make up for the calorie deficit. This is why people who buy food in a grocery store often have higher testosterone levels than people who hunt and gather their food (which was a shocking insight when I read it): with an abundance of calories the more sedentary people's bodies don't have as much pressure to dial back testosterone production (and a bunch of other things, testosterone is just an example). It's also why endurance athletes are at somewhat higher risk of infections than the average person (another big surprise): our bodies dial down our immune systems if we are burning tons of calories.
So: as we've noted before, calories in is complicated because different foods get metabolized differently, and different bodies will react differently to the same foods. And calories out is complicated because if we change our calorie expenditures via physical activity, our bodies will change expenditures on other things, and without complicated biochemical tests (the authors of Burn cite studies using drinking water marked with oxygen isotopes to measure metabolism, hardly something you can do at home) you don't know how your body is reacting.
So the old advice of eatig less and moving more is a bit like saying "sending a human into orbit is simple physics" then building a bigger trebuchet. It's not wrong, but it's not a great plan.
posted by Tehhund at 7:19 AM on October 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
muminor, we also cut way back on smoking, which may have contributed to weight gain.
For that matter, dieting became more common, and I gather that each loss and regain cycle can add some weight.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:40 AM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
For that matter, dieting became more common, and I gather that each loss and regain cycle can add some weight.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:40 AM on October 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
This initially surprised me, then the lightbulb came on and it made sense - the tobacco companies moved to food when it started to look like everyone was going to give up smoking, so them wanting 'to diversify their product portfolios' was more about survival when tobacco looked like a dying industry and not wanting to waste all that expensive knowledge of how to manipulate people using marketing and poisonous chemicals.
posted by dg at 8:41 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by dg at 8:41 PM on October 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
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