A purpose and a finish date
October 24, 2023 6:43 AM Subscribe
We believe the time has come for scholars across fields to reorient their work around the question of ‘ends’. This need not mean acquiescence to the logics of either economic utilitarianism or partisan fealty that have already proved so damaging to 21st-century institutions. But avoiding the question will not solve the problem. If we want the university to remain a viable space for knowledge production, then scholars across disciplines must be able to identify the goal of their work – in part to advance the Enlightenment project of ‘useful knowledge’ and in part to defend themselves from public and political mischaracterisation. from The ends of knowledge
a new field of "end studies"
I think that already exists, and it's called eschatology.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:30 AM on October 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
I think that already exists, and it's called eschatology.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:30 AM on October 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
Well, they are exploring playing up the coincidence of 'ends' (what is the purpose of a thing) and 'end' (the termination of a thing).
I'm curious whether studies which have deadlines actually have any greater chance of accomplishing their aims than those without.
And anyways, everyone works on finite term grants, which end, and require nodding one's head in the direction of real world utility in their application forms. Once you know the words to get past the gatekeepers, the is always another grant available.
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That said, there's a lot to be said for finishing things, which gives the space to look backwards and choose a new direction with a clean and tidy desk.
There's also a lot to be said for explicitly making positive impact a goal. IME, of you don't have a goal of positive impact, and pursue it with singular vision, you're unlikely to have any. All the other incentives pull in other directions, especially blind institutionalism, reproduction of the status quo into the future.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm curious whether studies which have deadlines actually have any greater chance of accomplishing their aims than those without.
And anyways, everyone works on finite term grants, which end, and require nodding one's head in the direction of real world utility in their application forms. Once you know the words to get past the gatekeepers, the is always another grant available.
---
That said, there's a lot to be said for finishing things, which gives the space to look backwards and choose a new direction with a clean and tidy desk.
There's also a lot to be said for explicitly making positive impact a goal. IME, of you don't have a goal of positive impact, and pursue it with singular vision, you're unlikely to have any. All the other incentives pull in other directions, especially blind institutionalism, reproduction of the status quo into the future.
posted by kaibutsu at 7:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, there goes pure mathematics.
Sure, it helped in the past. Having tools lying around for Einstein to pick up and turn into relativity was sure a great thing, or cryptography, or quantum mechanics, or particle theory, or biology, or AI, but the purpose of making those mathematical tools was just noodling around really.
And noodling around has neither ends nor end, pretty much by definition.
We knew her well, queen of the sciences, but everything must have an ends.
posted by NotAYakk at 7:42 AM on October 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
Sure, it helped in the past. Having tools lying around for Einstein to pick up and turn into relativity was sure a great thing, or cryptography, or quantum mechanics, or particle theory, or biology, or AI, but the purpose of making those mathematical tools was just noodling around really.
And noodling around has neither ends nor end, pretty much by definition.
We knew her well, queen of the sciences, but everything must have an ends.
posted by NotAYakk at 7:42 AM on October 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well, why have 'soft rock' and 'hard rock' when rock already exists? It's a genre. Like all genres, the people creating work in that genre share certain assumptions. After all, 'quantum' physics was just physics until the way it described the universe became a distinct set of ideas an practices.
I think people outside of research don't really get how terrifyingly precarious the academic world is right now. Even without political attacks (and even violence) of the kind that's happening in Florida, there's been a constant culture war going on worldwide. "Why do we need experts?" is the key concept of this war. "I know what I feel, and my feelings are my response to the world."
Scholarship and research are critically undervalued. Even teaching can't save us - we're either wasting students on irrelevant nonsense, or we're indoctrinating (or 'grooming', whatever the fuck that actually means) them, not preparing them for the 'real world' where thinking about things and trying to understand them is unnecessary.
For people who believe that thinking and trying to understand is important, there comes a point where you have to look at your work and say "I know this is important, and I can prove that this is important, but the society in which I live no longer functions on things like 'proof'." This essay is part of that realisation. So where do we go from here?
Some of this decline is self-inflicted, too: the replication crisis in psychology, the managerialisation of universities, the failure to teach HDR students to convey ideas more broadly. The problem is that we don't seem to have time now for the "what is our work for?" conversations - we are left with "what was it all for?"
posted by prismatic7 at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think people outside of research don't really get how terrifyingly precarious the academic world is right now. Even without political attacks (and even violence) of the kind that's happening in Florida, there's been a constant culture war going on worldwide. "Why do we need experts?" is the key concept of this war. "I know what I feel, and my feelings are my response to the world."
Scholarship and research are critically undervalued. Even teaching can't save us - we're either wasting students on irrelevant nonsense, or we're indoctrinating (or 'grooming', whatever the fuck that actually means) them, not preparing them for the 'real world' where thinking about things and trying to understand them is unnecessary.
For people who believe that thinking and trying to understand is important, there comes a point where you have to look at your work and say "I know this is important, and I can prove that this is important, but the society in which I live no longer functions on things like 'proof'." This essay is part of that realisation. So where do we go from here?
Some of this decline is self-inflicted, too: the replication crisis in psychology, the managerialisation of universities, the failure to teach HDR students to convey ideas more broadly. The problem is that we don't seem to have time now for the "what is our work for?" conversations - we are left with "what was it all for?"
posted by prismatic7 at 7:44 AM on October 24, 2023 [12 favorites]
Well, there goes pure mathematics.
And the arts.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
And the arts.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
It’s much more than just another field. It’s asking some serious questions about WHY are we doing this. And this leads to asking WHAT should we be doing and HOW. I loved going to a university and in a lot of ways I regret not continuing. Except, given the myriad of discussions here on Academia, these regrets are fading away. We (in the US) live in a culture that has never valued education. Much of the population wants to be told what to think. And few want to learn and know how to think. If the only thought revolves around the return on investment in getting a college education then, yes, the cost of a college degree doesn’t guarantee that you’ll make it all back later. But where lies the curiosity, the enthusiasm to just learn, maybe to know? So, some academics are now facing the political and cultural reality that does not respect their efforts or their works. We are living in increasingly bad times.
posted by njohnson23 at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 7:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
If we want the university to remain a viable space for knowledge production, then scholars across disciplines must be able to identify the goal of their work – in part to advance the Enlightenment project of ‘useful knowledge’ and in part to defend themselves from public and political mischaracterisation.
Either that or we should properly learn how to fight. There's some version of this article that I would be very willing to listen to. I'm a pure mathematician and I think people in my business ought to make some collective effort to justify spending effort on that and not on something else, and I think there's been total failure to make that effort systematically.
But I absolutely reject the idea of having to justify ourselves (any more than we already do) to any of the parties that I actually see wielding material power in universities, especially the ghoulish bean-counters constantly gunning for the humanities.
I don't think making excuses for ourselves is a very robust defence against mischaracterisation. A better message for academics is to abandon the idea that we're above politics and its consequences and to seriously interrogate our personal motivations for our work, and then defend it on its own terms if defensible. A more conciliatory (or dishonest) approach is a failure that allows the managerialists and the instrumentalists and the pirvatisers and the fascist zealots and whoever else to chip away at an endeavour that should in a variety of ways be radically re-imagined, but absolutely not by the aforementioned fuckers.
And I'm unfortunately pretty skeptical, in the era of academics being pressured into an inordinate amount of self-promotion, and high-volume (in both senses) contribution to the Total Noise of the Discourse, of this sort of argument being made by people perhaps subject to those pressures, on a platform that I vaguely associate with a sort of TED-talkish public-intellectual hype-factory. Maybe the last part is uncharitable. I get sinister "move fast and break things" vibes from this piece.
posted by busted_crayons at 8:19 AM on October 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
Either that or we should properly learn how to fight. There's some version of this article that I would be very willing to listen to. I'm a pure mathematician and I think people in my business ought to make some collective effort to justify spending effort on that and not on something else, and I think there's been total failure to make that effort systematically.
But I absolutely reject the idea of having to justify ourselves (any more than we already do) to any of the parties that I actually see wielding material power in universities, especially the ghoulish bean-counters constantly gunning for the humanities.
I don't think making excuses for ourselves is a very robust defence against mischaracterisation. A better message for academics is to abandon the idea that we're above politics and its consequences and to seriously interrogate our personal motivations for our work, and then defend it on its own terms if defensible. A more conciliatory (or dishonest) approach is a failure that allows the managerialists and the instrumentalists and the pirvatisers and the fascist zealots and whoever else to chip away at an endeavour that should in a variety of ways be radically re-imagined, but absolutely not by the aforementioned fuckers.
And I'm unfortunately pretty skeptical, in the era of academics being pressured into an inordinate amount of self-promotion, and high-volume (in both senses) contribution to the Total Noise of the Discourse, of this sort of argument being made by people perhaps subject to those pressures, on a platform that I vaguely associate with a sort of TED-talkish public-intellectual hype-factory. Maybe the last part is uncharitable. I get sinister "move fast and break things" vibes from this piece.
posted by busted_crayons at 8:19 AM on October 24, 2023 [25 favorites]
I can't think of anything more deadly than forcing a field to come up with some limited statement of purpose. (Well, yes, one thing more deadly: the term knowledge production; just typing those two words together has killed 10% of my brain cells.)
I mean, this essay quotes Francis Bacon and Robert Burton. Which field gets to claim them? Which field will offer an explanation for why these two dusty corpses should remain in memory? What purpose does it serve, and for how long must we remember them?
Who says we need to accede to the world's hatred of memory, its suspicion of that which does not produce an immediate profit? The authors say, "This need not mean acquiescence to the logics of either economic utilitarianism or partisan fealty that have already proved so damaging to 21st-century institutions. But avoiding the question will not solve the problem." Yet they are begging for that acquiescence.
This is the academic version of a bored high-schooler asking, "when will I ever use algebra?" And the answer is not, "well, let's state our purposes for algebra and mention when we will stop using it," the answer is, "shut up and accept that knowledge is important."
posted by mittens at 8:28 AM on October 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
I mean, this essay quotes Francis Bacon and Robert Burton. Which field gets to claim them? Which field will offer an explanation for why these two dusty corpses should remain in memory? What purpose does it serve, and for how long must we remember them?
Who says we need to accede to the world's hatred of memory, its suspicion of that which does not produce an immediate profit? The authors say, "This need not mean acquiescence to the logics of either economic utilitarianism or partisan fealty that have already proved so damaging to 21st-century institutions. But avoiding the question will not solve the problem." Yet they are begging for that acquiescence.
This is the academic version of a bored high-schooler asking, "when will I ever use algebra?" And the answer is not, "well, let's state our purposes for algebra and mention when we will stop using it," the answer is, "shut up and accept that knowledge is important."
posted by mittens at 8:28 AM on October 24, 2023 [11 favorites]
Scholars across fields may bristle at the idea of their work ending, with ‘defences’ of various fields commonplace today
And with that touch of snideness the author completely lost me. I'm sorry if you can't handle people contradicting your thesis, but authors who resort to casual dismissal of counter-arguments are clearly still afloat.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:38 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
And with that touch of snideness the author completely lost me. I'm sorry if you can't handle people contradicting your thesis, but authors who resort to casual dismissal of counter-arguments are clearly still afloat.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:38 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
all aspects of the economy that don't serve the project of knowledge-making are fat that can be safely cut.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:40 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:40 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
What is the use of a newborn baby?
posted by surlyben at 8:52 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 8:52 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jonathan Swift has an idea.
posted by Jacen at 8:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Jacen at 8:54 AM on October 24, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is the academic version of a bored high-schooler asking, "when will I ever use algebra?" And the answer is not, "well, let's state our purposes for algebra and mention when we will stop using it," the answer is, "shut up and accept that knowledge is important."
Wow, is that incorrect. Speaking as someone who used to teach math, I can assure you that's a great way to quash student interest in your subject.
I mean, every person walking this earth needs number skills, mathematical reasoning and perseverance to solve mental challenges, which are skills math study intends to build. But one of the big distinguishing factors between a good-enough math teacher and a great math teacher is "do they inspire interest in the subject beyond getting them through the next exam?"
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:02 AM on October 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
Wow, is that incorrect. Speaking as someone who used to teach math, I can assure you that's a great way to quash student interest in your subject.
I mean, every person walking this earth needs number skills, mathematical reasoning and perseverance to solve mental challenges, which are skills math study intends to build. But one of the big distinguishing factors between a good-enough math teacher and a great math teacher is "do they inspire interest in the subject beyond getting them through the next exam?"
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:02 AM on October 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
Of what use?
Swift certainly had ideas for babies, but I was paraphrasing Ben Franklin (on flying) and Faraday (on chemistry or maybe elctromagnetism.)
posted by surlyben at 9:06 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Swift certainly had ideas for babies, but I was paraphrasing Ben Franklin (on flying) and Faraday (on chemistry or maybe elctromagnetism.)
posted by surlyben at 9:06 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is Business School doublespeak.
Understanding and knowledge are ends in themselves, not means to ends defined by politicians and the market.
posted by jamjam at 9:12 AM on October 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
Understanding and knowledge are ends in themselves, not means to ends defined by politicians and the market.
posted by jamjam at 9:12 AM on October 24, 2023 [9 favorites]
But one of the big distinguishing factors between a good-enough math teacher and a great math teacher is "do they inspire interest in the subject beyond getting them through the next exam?"
I don't think that was meant to be a literal response, however satisfying it might be given the question. The point as I interpreted it is, that sometimes you need to convey to students that there aren't specific, enumerable use-cases for powerful tools like algebra and they need to be willing to accept this. A big part of teaching math is convincing students that they not approach it as one enormous if-then list of specific ways to deal with specific problems.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think that was meant to be a literal response, however satisfying it might be given the question. The point as I interpreted it is, that sometimes you need to convey to students that there aren't specific, enumerable use-cases for powerful tools like algebra and they need to be willing to accept this. A big part of teaching math is convincing students that they not approach it as one enormous if-then list of specific ways to deal with specific problems.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 9:20 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
This is the academic version of a bored high-schooler asking, "when will I ever use algebra?" And the answer is not, "well, let's state our purposes for algebra and mention when we will stop using it," the answer is, "shut up and accept that knowledge is important."
To some extent I’m just picking on the choice of example here but when has either the underlying curriculum design reason or the “justifying to a bored student” reason for the teaching of algebra been an appeal to the pure pursuit of knowledge? This is basic algebra, not number theory, it has practical ends all over the place (and leads to other math that does, too).
posted by atoxyl at 9:24 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
To some extent I’m just picking on the choice of example here but when has either the underlying curriculum design reason or the “justifying to a bored student” reason for the teaching of algebra been an appeal to the pure pursuit of knowledge? This is basic algebra, not number theory, it has practical ends all over the place (and leads to other math that does, too).
posted by atoxyl at 9:24 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
We knew her well, queen of the sciences,
Some people would rob their mother.
posted by aws17576 at 9:24 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some people would rob their mother.
posted by aws17576 at 9:24 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I withdraw my bad example. Its end-date is today, at 12:26 pm eastern.
posted by mittens at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mittens at 9:26 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can't think of anything more deadly than forcing a field to come up with some limited statement of purpose.
Swift certainly had ideas for babies, but I was paraphrasing Ben Franklin
I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavouring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the publick good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich.
posted by swift at 9:27 AM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
Swift certainly had ideas for babies, but I was paraphrasing Ben Franklin
I profess, in the sincerity of my heart, that I have not the least personal interest in endeavouring to promote this necessary work, having no other motive than the publick good of my country, by advancing our trade, providing for infants, relieving the poor, and giving some pleasure to the rich.
posted by swift at 9:27 AM on October 24, 2023 [7 favorites]
This comes off as a bit of a trollish article, though. I mean
And Ben Schmidt, in his blog, has diagnosed ‘a sense of terminal decline in the history profession’ given cratering numbers of academic jobs. These fields have produced valuable knowledge, but (according to these authors) they may have taken us as far as they can go.
I don’t think the research program of history is about to wrap up in the way an outdated physics paradigm might. So that seems like a sign that academia has other problems!
posted by atoxyl at 9:29 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
And Ben Schmidt, in his blog, has diagnosed ‘a sense of terminal decline in the history profession’ given cratering numbers of academic jobs. These fields have produced valuable knowledge, but (according to these authors) they may have taken us as far as they can go.
I don’t think the research program of history is about to wrap up in the way an outdated physics paradigm might. So that seems like a sign that academia has other problems!
posted by atoxyl at 9:29 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
“STEM only!” has been a major in the direction education takes since, what, late 90s?
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:41 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
My contribution to end studies: I do know, that if you slice the ends off of a roast ham, it fits better in the oven pan I own.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:53 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:53 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
So that seems like a sign that academia has other problems!
1. The ages-old belief that schooling, even higher ed, should be a jobs-training system.
2. The push for STEM-uber-alles hasn’t done any favors for non-STEM academic departments.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:55 AM on October 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
1. The ages-old belief that schooling, even higher ed, should be a jobs-training system.
2. The push for STEM-uber-alles hasn’t done any favors for non-STEM academic departments.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:55 AM on October 24, 2023 [6 favorites]
1. The ages-old belief that schooling, even higher ed, should be a jobs-training system.
2. The push for STEM-uber-alles hasn’t done any favors for non-STEM academic departments.
Those aren’t miles off from being the same point, even.
posted by atoxyl at 10:01 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
2. The push for STEM-uber-alles hasn’t done any favors for non-STEM academic departments.
Those aren’t miles off from being the same point, even.
posted by atoxyl at 10:01 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
My contribution to end studies: I do know, that if you slice the ends off of a roast ham, it fits better in the oven pan I own.
We’re going to need to hear from BBQ contingents from at least 3 states to build a full program for burnt end studies.
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
We’re going to need to hear from BBQ contingents from at least 3 states to build a full program for burnt end studies.
posted by Artw at 10:06 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Artw, I volunteer my time and tastebuds for this noble pursuit.
posted by evilDoug at 10:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by evilDoug at 10:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
This seems weird and stupid, as plenty of scholarly work has no end and can be characterized as "this area is interesting to me and I'd like to find out more about it." My father was a physical chemist who spend his entire career in academia looking into... okay, well I don't really understand any of it, but something to do with disassociation of molecules. I think? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It was just something that interested him and he pioneered some methods of investigating it. I could say the same for the theoretical physicists and physical chemists he often worked with. None of these things had, or really could have, any kind of "end" or "final answer" or "sought-after outcome," and none of them had any particular goal of "helping mankind" other than by contributing to the common stock of knowledge. I think this is true of most scholarly fields of inquiry. It's not like my dad and his colleagues were sitting around trying to figure out time travel or come up with a quantum transistor. And what could be the "end" of scholarly inquiry into Shakespeare? Or the Pelopnnesian War?
posted by slkinsey at 10:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 10:33 AM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
To my regret I read the whole thing, and in its conclusion, it's... not great.
"Our volume is an initial attempt to see what the advancement of learning could look like if it were to be reoriented around emergent ends rather than inherited structures."
Uh huh.
Look, we absolutely need trade schools, and we need people in the world who can perform the skills trade schools teach reliably and well. But we also need speculation, creativity and pure research. We need experimentation and poetry and the truth is that most experiments fail and most poems are bad and that's not just OK but necessary. It's true that more people in abstract theoretical endeavors should really get their hands dirty and spend some time living in the consequences of their explorations now and then, economics I am looking pointedly at you, but that doesn't mean those endeavors or the approaches behind them are somehow narrow products of legacy institutions. "Knowledge for its own sake" is just knowledge in its larval state, waiting for a world it can grow into.
If you know where you're going you're not discovering, you're navigating. They're different skills and they both matter.
posted by mhoye at 10:44 AM on October 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
"Our volume is an initial attempt to see what the advancement of learning could look like if it were to be reoriented around emergent ends rather than inherited structures."
Uh huh.
Look, we absolutely need trade schools, and we need people in the world who can perform the skills trade schools teach reliably and well. But we also need speculation, creativity and pure research. We need experimentation and poetry and the truth is that most experiments fail and most poems are bad and that's not just OK but necessary. It's true that more people in abstract theoretical endeavors should really get their hands dirty and spend some time living in the consequences of their explorations now and then, economics I am looking pointedly at you, but that doesn't mean those endeavors or the approaches behind them are somehow narrow products of legacy institutions. "Knowledge for its own sake" is just knowledge in its larval state, waiting for a world it can grow into.
If you know where you're going you're not discovering, you're navigating. They're different skills and they both matter.
posted by mhoye at 10:44 AM on October 24, 2023 [13 favorites]
But we also need speculation, creativity and pure research.
Right? I'd go so far as to say that the ever-so-valuable practical research depends on pure research. Pure research finds new, weird, unexpected things that someone may later be able to find a practical use for. But the latter can't happen without the former.
And that's to say nothing about the importance of the arts or just knowledge for its own sake.
As an aside, I find it hilarious that some education jargon now refers to STEAM, which is STEM plus the arts, which is, uh, just a broad and well-rounded education that includes...most of the topics/fields of study? We've become so beholden to the concept of STEM that, in order to remind people of the value of the arts, we had to find a way to shoehorn it into the acronym such that we now have an acronym that is essentially just another way of saying "education."
posted by asnider at 10:59 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Right? I'd go so far as to say that the ever-so-valuable practical research depends on pure research. Pure research finds new, weird, unexpected things that someone may later be able to find a practical use for. But the latter can't happen without the former.
And that's to say nothing about the importance of the arts or just knowledge for its own sake.
As an aside, I find it hilarious that some education jargon now refers to STEAM, which is STEM plus the arts, which is, uh, just a broad and well-rounded education that includes...most of the topics/fields of study? We've become so beholden to the concept of STEM that, in order to remind people of the value of the arts, we had to find a way to shoehorn it into the acronym such that we now have an acronym that is essentially just another way of saying "education."
posted by asnider at 10:59 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Surprised it’s not STEBEM to get in business and economics.
posted by Artw at 11:03 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:03 AM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
The article reads like a company downsizing page from a human resources handbook.
posted by Brian B. at 11:05 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 11:05 AM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I was confused when they invoked Thiel with a "gotta hand it to him" vibe.
posted by credulous at 11:39 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 11:39 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
2. The push for STEM-uber-alles hasn’t done any favors for non-STEM academic departments.
Indeed, and in fact the attitude represented by the uncontroversial use of the acronym "STEM" has been pretty shit for at least the S and M in various ways, although I can't really speak for the T and E.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:41 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Indeed, and in fact the attitude represented by the uncontroversial use of the acronym "STEM" has been pretty shit for at least the S and M in various ways, although I can't really speak for the T and E.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:41 AM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
(Use by people like administrators, public funding bodies, etc., not use in, like, this thread.)
posted by busted_crayons at 11:43 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by busted_crayons at 11:43 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that already exists, and it's called eschatology.
Is your eschatology apocalyptic?
posted by TedW at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is your eschatology apocalyptic?
posted by TedW at 11:45 AM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Surprised it’s not STEBEM to get in business and economics.
Say what you will about actual STEM people but I think a lot of us wouldn’t stand for that.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Say what you will about actual STEM people but I think a lot of us wouldn’t stand for that.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Indeed, and in fact the attitude represented by the uncontroversial use of the acronym "STEM" has been pretty shit for at least the S and M in various ways, although I can't really speak for the T and E.
people talk about how dire the academic jobs situation is in the humanities, but if you separate out computer science and engineering from the rest of stem, the situation in stem-minus-cs is in fact nearly as dire as the situation in the humanities. the chief difference is that instead of getting thrown into the adjunct hole, stem phds get stuck on the postdoc treadmill.
basically, there’s so much demand for cs professors that that one discipline single-handedly props up rest-of-stem
what’s really unnerving, even if you’re a stupid sociopathic jackhole who’s okay with the dismantlement of the rest of the university in favor of shoving all the money into computer science, is that fields like math, fields that cs absolutely positively needs to sustain itself, are getting just as dismantled as all the other non-cs fields.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:14 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
people talk about how dire the academic jobs situation is in the humanities, but if you separate out computer science and engineering from the rest of stem, the situation in stem-minus-cs is in fact nearly as dire as the situation in the humanities. the chief difference is that instead of getting thrown into the adjunct hole, stem phds get stuck on the postdoc treadmill.
basically, there’s so much demand for cs professors that that one discipline single-handedly props up rest-of-stem
what’s really unnerving, even if you’re a stupid sociopathic jackhole who’s okay with the dismantlement of the rest of the university in favor of shoving all the money into computer science, is that fields like math, fields that cs absolutely positively needs to sustain itself, are getting just as dismantled as all the other non-cs fields.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 12:14 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thiel… Don’t go to college! Just invent the next $Billion product or service!
Based on what? Zuckerberg went to Harvard. Built an app to pick up women. Dropped out and made a fortune. Is that what Thiel is talking about? So how many college drop outs and or never wents have done the same thing? And how many of those actually created something of real value to all the humans on earth? For me, all these tech tycoons are just lucky and don’t deserve any admiration, envy, or jealousy projected on them. They are not role models, business geniuses, or worth listening to. College was supposedly about broadening the individual, exposing them to all sorts of things and points of view while learning to critically think about it all. I never made a buck based on my college majors. Having degrees got me jobs in the olden days because having a degree meant something about my background and potential. The anti college thing is just business wanting drones to crank out their shit and not ask questions. The S, T, and the E part of STEM neither broadens the individual or makes them critical thinkers.
posted by njohnson23 at 12:16 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Based on what? Zuckerberg went to Harvard. Built an app to pick up women. Dropped out and made a fortune. Is that what Thiel is talking about? So how many college drop outs and or never wents have done the same thing? And how many of those actually created something of real value to all the humans on earth? For me, all these tech tycoons are just lucky and don’t deserve any admiration, envy, or jealousy projected on them. They are not role models, business geniuses, or worth listening to. College was supposedly about broadening the individual, exposing them to all sorts of things and points of view while learning to critically think about it all. I never made a buck based on my college majors. Having degrees got me jobs in the olden days because having a degree meant something about my background and potential. The anti college thing is just business wanting drones to crank out their shit and not ask questions. The S, T, and the E part of STEM neither broadens the individual or makes them critical thinkers.
posted by njohnson23 at 12:16 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
So how many college drop outs and or never wents have done the same thing?
Yeah, Thiel's grant program is bizarre. For every billionaire college dropout story there are hundreds -- probably thousands -- more who did not achieve that level of success (to say nothing about whether or not the things created by those who did are of actual value to the broader public). Just because a few brilliant(?) people were able to make a thing that made them rich without completing college doesn't mean it is a reasonable or practical approach for most people.
And, of course, the very notion of "stop sitting in a classroom and go build something useful" is amazingly condescending and devalues the entire concept of higher education.
posted by asnider at 12:36 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, Thiel's grant program is bizarre. For every billionaire college dropout story there are hundreds -- probably thousands -- more who did not achieve that level of success (to say nothing about whether or not the things created by those who did are of actual value to the broader public). Just because a few brilliant(?) people were able to make a thing that made them rich without completing college doesn't mean it is a reasonable or practical approach for most people.
And, of course, the very notion of "stop sitting in a classroom and go build something useful" is amazingly condescending and devalues the entire concept of higher education.
posted by asnider at 12:36 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
is that fields like math, fields that cs absolutely positively needs to sustain itself, are getting just as dismantled as all the other non-cs fields.
Yup. Hot bombastic pronouncement on this: I'm far from a computer scientist but I've done a little bit of work in some of the CS-adjacent parts of discrete math and my blinkered myopic impression is that lots of good stuff is getting done in CS departments that's completely unmoored from its roots and should be in the math department, and they're getting one over on us. Actual theoretical CS, on the other hand (actual CS, not cool graph theory shit done by people who know what to call it to get grants): is anyone doing any? Like, has there been a really new idea recently or should the actual computer scientists maybe start thinking about End Studies?
posted by busted_crayons at 12:43 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yup. Hot bombastic pronouncement on this: I'm far from a computer scientist but I've done a little bit of work in some of the CS-adjacent parts of discrete math and my blinkered myopic impression is that lots of good stuff is getting done in CS departments that's completely unmoored from its roots and should be in the math department, and they're getting one over on us. Actual theoretical CS, on the other hand (actual CS, not cool graph theory shit done by people who know what to call it to get grants): is anyone doing any? Like, has there been a really new idea recently or should the actual computer scientists maybe start thinking about End Studies?
posted by busted_crayons at 12:43 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, in math we obviously have ends already. There may well be some way to make them justify one of the means.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:48 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 12:48 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like, has there been a really new idea recently or should the actual computer scientists maybe start thinking about End Studies?
Complexity classes: eh, we’re probably never gonna sort that out. Let’s move on.
posted by atoxyl at 12:52 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Complexity classes: eh, we’re probably never gonna sort that out. Let’s move on.
posted by atoxyl at 12:52 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Surprised it’s not STEBEM to get in business and economics.
Ooo, yes! Except I'm not sure why the B and the E would be stuffed in the middle like that when those two letters are the domain of the true leaders among us. Clearly it should be BESTEM. And you could make it even more excellent with a little tweaking: BEST 'EM!
posted by Don Pepino at 12:58 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ooo, yes! Except I'm not sure why the B and the E would be stuffed in the middle like that when those two letters are the domain of the true leaders among us. Clearly it should be BESTEM. And you could make it even more excellent with a little tweaking: BEST 'EM!
posted by Don Pepino at 12:58 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are already organisations unironically using STEM to mean "Science, Technology, Engineering, and Management" (I will not link to them).
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 1:25 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 1:25 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
How about BAIBES - Blockchain, AI, Business & Economic Science?
It can be updated if the business portion needs different fads.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
It can be updated if the business portion needs different fads.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think pure mathematics should be fine.. It's serves to extract core theoretical concerns from problems across domains, which permits deeper progress. We do need a stronger pure mathematician to applied mathematician pipeline of course, but that's largely because we admit too many people to PhD programs.
Awful lot of computer science looks pretty much fucked by this, not because computer science does not prove useful, but because their particular part consists lacks deep enough connections with either theory or practice.
A search for "proof-of-work" has 171 hits on eprint.iacr.org and 3,830 hits on arxiv.org. At least a few should be say it's all bullocks, but mostly they provide security proofs under flawed assumptions, or apply proof-of-work to other problems. The simple fact is: Proof-of-work is horrifically inefficient or insecure, or both.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:32 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Awful lot of computer science looks pretty much fucked by this, not because computer science does not prove useful, but because their particular part consists lacks deep enough connections with either theory or practice.
A search for "proof-of-work" has 171 hits on eprint.iacr.org and 3,830 hits on arxiv.org. At least a few should be say it's all bullocks, but mostly they provide security proofs under flawed assumptions, or apply proof-of-work to other problems. The simple fact is: Proof-of-work is horrifically inefficient or insecure, or both.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:32 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Isn't pure math the one with just the pencil and eraser budget anyway?
posted by Wood at 2:35 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Wood at 2:35 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
And the cigarette budget
posted by credulous at 3:22 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by credulous at 3:22 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
And you could make it even more excellent with a little tweaking: BEST 'EM!
If you include the Arts it can be BEATS ME!
posted by chavenet at 3:23 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you include the Arts it can be BEATS ME!
posted by chavenet at 3:23 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nothing about the chaos of discovery and the long journey to adapt it into something useful every day?
Nothing about the gatekeepers of permitted, orthodox and hegemonic forms of knowledge?
Nothing about the white-european aspect of the heroic bands, only experiencing new ideas because of trade bringing an experience outside their home nation in the time of Renaissance and Elightenment? No contrast to now as we cycle the phases of the closed loop of the planet's ecosystem reusing and recycling the elements we use to grow food and build things?
I'm not done, thank you. Keep on dreaming, and may your dreams be wider and brighter.
posted by k3ninho at 3:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Nothing about the gatekeepers of permitted, orthodox and hegemonic forms of knowledge?
Nothing about the white-european aspect of the heroic bands, only experiencing new ideas because of trade bringing an experience outside their home nation in the time of Renaissance and Elightenment? No contrast to now as we cycle the phases of the closed loop of the planet's ecosystem reusing and recycling the elements we use to grow food and build things?
I'm not done, thank you. Keep on dreaming, and may your dreams be wider and brighter.
posted by k3ninho at 3:26 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Isn't pure math the one with just the pencil and eraser budget anyway?
yeah it's the erasers that distinguish us from the physics bros
posted by busted_crayons at 3:27 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
yeah it's the erasers that distinguish us from the physics bros
posted by busted_crayons at 3:27 PM on October 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
that and the fancypants chalk
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:32 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 3:32 PM on October 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
There are already organisations unironically using STEM to mean "Science, Technology, Engineering, and Management" (I will not link to them).
Can we get “Medicine” instead, at least?
posted by atoxyl at 3:53 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can we get “Medicine” instead, at least?
posted by atoxyl at 3:53 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s always been kind of an awkward assemblage to produce that acronym, though.
M is M.
S draws on M, but is not M. So far so good.
E is applied S and M, but it has its own sort of mission and mindset so I’ll allow it.
T is… the product of E? The application of the product of E? Is T supposed to be vocational technical education? I’ve never really understood this, to be honest.
posted by atoxyl at 3:56 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
M is M.
S draws on M, but is not M. So far so good.
E is applied S and M, but it has its own sort of mission and mindset so I’ll allow it.
T is… the product of E? The application of the product of E? Is T supposed to be vocational technical education? I’ve never really understood this, to be honest.
posted by atoxyl at 3:56 PM on October 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Actual theoretical CS, on the other hand (actual CS, not cool graph theory shit done by people who know what to call it to get grants): is anyone doing any? Like, has there been a really new idea recently or should the actual computer scientists maybe start thinking about End Studies?
Well, I merely dropped out of a master's program and now recreationally read journal articles, mostly survey articles. And you can pretty clearly watch the trend following: IoT -> blockchain -> cloud -> AI. Even USENIX ATC is prone to trendy topics -- feels like half this years accepted talks were about AI training. To some degree that's expected: if there was one recent CT paper you need to read right now, it's probably "Attention is all you need."
AFAICT theory sorta hit a wall on P=NP and everyone moved on to applications & engineering. Industry does well in systems research, with many of the FANG publishing highly cited papers. Even originators of the more theoretical result like CAP theorem now work at Google.
posted by pwnguin at 3:57 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well, I merely dropped out of a master's program and now recreationally read journal articles, mostly survey articles. And you can pretty clearly watch the trend following: IoT -> blockchain -> cloud -> AI. Even USENIX ATC is prone to trendy topics -- feels like half this years accepted talks were about AI training. To some degree that's expected: if there was one recent CT paper you need to read right now, it's probably "Attention is all you need."
AFAICT theory sorta hit a wall on P=NP and everyone moved on to applications & engineering. Industry does well in systems research, with many of the FANG publishing highly cited papers. Even originators of the more theoretical result like CAP theorem now work at Google.
posted by pwnguin at 3:57 PM on October 24, 2023 [5 favorites]
that and the fancypants chalk
I have a nice colleague who leaves the fancypants chalk in the lecture theatre for communal use, and my annual over-their-heads-for-at-least-two-reasons dad-type joke about hagoromo + mathematicians = commodity fetishism is the entirety of the humanistic education that the students are going to get.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:03 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have a nice colleague who leaves the fancypants chalk in the lecture theatre for communal use, and my annual over-their-heads-for-at-least-two-reasons dad-type joke about hagoromo + mathematicians = commodity fetishism is the entirety of the humanistic education that the students are going to get.
posted by busted_crayons at 4:03 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
hagoromo is genuinely better chalk, though
signed, an economist who got the whiteboard in his office replaced with a blackboard
posted by dismas at 6:57 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
signed, an economist who got the whiteboard in his office replaced with a blackboard
posted by dismas at 6:57 PM on October 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Isn't pure math the one with just the pencil and eraser budget anyway?
Hey, Humanities people just need libraries and some quiet time alone with the books -- and that hasn't stopped them from cutting us to the bone in the name of 'savings'.
posted by jrochest at 6:15 AM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hey, Humanities people just need libraries and some quiet time alone with the books -- and that hasn't stopped them from cutting us to the bone in the name of 'savings'.
posted by jrochest at 6:15 AM on October 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
This article... like "We need to reconsider which other disciplines ought to exist. Who will make that decision? We scholars of ends will, of course!"
Experts in nothing except telling other disciplines how they should be managing themselves... yeah, sounds like a corporate playbook on downsizing.
posted by subdee at 7:15 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Experts in nothing except telling other disciplines how they should be managing themselves... yeah, sounds like a corporate playbook on downsizing.
posted by subdee at 7:15 AM on October 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
E is applied S and M
Engineers are wild, man!
T is… the product of E? The application of the product of E? Is T supposed to be vocational technical education? I’ve never really understood this, to be honest.
I think it's kind of a ham-fisted way of making "computer stuff" fit into the acronym.
posted by asnider at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2023
Engineers are wild, man!
T is… the product of E? The application of the product of E? Is T supposed to be vocational technical education? I’ve never really understood this, to be honest.
I think it's kind of a ham-fisted way of making "computer stuff" fit into the acronym.
posted by asnider at 8:22 AM on October 25, 2023
Hey, Humanities people just need libraries and some quiet time alone with the books -- and that hasn't stopped them from cutting us to the bone in the name of 'savings'.
Department of Applied Humanities will never get to build its “weltanschauung collider”.
posted by Artw at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Department of Applied Humanities will never get to build its “weltanschauung collider”.
posted by Artw at 1:43 PM on October 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
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