Crisis at Marvel
November 2, 2023 11:15 AM Subscribe
But the ensuing tsunami of spandex proved to be too much of a good thing, and the demands of churning out so much programming taxed the Marvel apparatus. (slVariety Magazine)
IMHO, you can recast Kang and Marvel should have already. My vote? The amazing Colman Domingo.
IMHO, you can recast Kang and Marvel should have already. My vote? The amazing Colman Domingo.
Nobody learned from the Ezra Miller debacle? Dump the guy. It's sci-fi. You can recast easily. Nobody wants to look at Jonathan Major's ugly smug mug all over the walls of Loki anyway. He's not even a good actor. I get that they already had Loki season 2 in the can, but nobody's enjoying seeing him.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've got no dog in this hunt - Marvel stuff ceased to entertain me more than 10 years ago - but I 100% would tune in if kitteh's suggestion of casting Colman Domingo came to pass. The man exudes charisma and has an amazing voice.
posted by davidmsc at 11:29 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by davidmsc at 11:29 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right?? It's not like Marvel hasn't already recast before (see Don Cheadle and Terrence Howard). Colman Domingo is perfect!
posted by Kitteh at 11:40 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 11:40 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
A long time ago I caught a glimpse — maybe from a YouTube thumb — of something Marvel related which showed Thor's hammer with a head bigger than a a beer cooler. I laughed pretty hard and knew instantly that these people were just too stupid to ever do anything that would interest me.
posted by jamjam at 11:40 AM on November 2, 2023
posted by jamjam at 11:40 AM on November 2, 2023
jamjam, he's super strong. that's why he can lift the very big hammer.
posted by sagc at 11:42 AM on November 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:42 AM on November 2, 2023 [20 favorites]
Moreover, the need to tease out an interwoven storyline over so many disparate shows, movies and platforms created a muddled narrative that baffled viewers.
This is, like, the least surprising result imaginable considering Marvel is a comic book publisher.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
This is, like, the least surprising result imaginable considering Marvel is a comic book publisher.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
IMHO, you can recast Kang and Marvel should have already.
Right?? It's not like Marvel hasn't already recast before (see Don Cheadle and Terrence Howard)
This option is mentioned in TFA, near the end.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:53 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right?? It's not like Marvel hasn't already recast before (see Don Cheadle and Terrence Howard)
This option is mentioned in TFA, near the end.
posted by Saxon Kane at 11:53 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I endorse forgetting Kang entirely and switching to Dr. Doom, as is also mentioned in the article.) (He's wearing a mask, so it doesn't matter who plays him!)
posted by mittens at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023
posted by mittens at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023
I'm a little baffled by why the Kang thing is such a problem. Just replace him with another actor and blame it on the Multiverse.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:00 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:00 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Biggest issue for me is that I enjoy the movies, individually, and some of the shows, individually, but I can do so without needing every single show and movie to be intertwined and so connected that missing one episode of a minor third-tier character arc on streaming network X means half the new movie makes no sense to me.
Try standalone stories. Standalone characters. Not everything needs to be a 15 movie arc.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
Try standalone stories. Standalone characters. Not everything needs to be a 15 movie arc.
posted by caution live frogs at 12:09 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
Try standalone stories. Standalone characters. Not everything needs to be a 15 movie arc.
e.g.: Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. 132 minutes of perfection.
posted by mikelieman at 12:12 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
e.g.: Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. 132 minutes of perfection.
posted by mikelieman at 12:12 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Recast: Awkwafina as Kang. All problems solved.
posted by snofoam at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
e.g.: Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. 132 minutes of perfection.
Except the last 45 which devolved into the same old Marvel fight scene where everyone battles hundreds of mindless CGI robots/creatures.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
Except the last 45 which devolved into the same old Marvel fight scene where everyone battles hundreds of mindless CGI robots/creatures.
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:18 PM on November 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
Just replace him with another actor and blame it on the Multiverse.
One of the stupider things about the genuinely just-not-good Quantumania was the Stadium of Kangs at the end that all just more or less looked like him. It's an infinite multiverse, ya dinguses!!!
posted by praemunire at 12:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
One of the stupider things about the genuinely just-not-good Quantumania was the Stadium of Kangs at the end that all just more or less looked like him. It's an infinite multiverse, ya dinguses!!!
posted by praemunire at 12:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
We’ve had smartphones and the MCU for about the same time, and people seem to be bored of both of them to the same degree. You can’t keep coming out and saying “it’s new!” when it’s the same glowing rectangle pocket computer, but larger, or prettier. Same goes for films - if every film is a race to save the earth, with a fight against hundreds of mindless cgi/robots (thank you liquidwolf) at the end, why is this new? And if it’s not new… why is it worthy of my time?
I wonder how long it took for musicals to reach the same kind of cultural saturation that superhero movies have.
posted by The River Ivel at 12:26 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wonder how long it took for musicals to reach the same kind of cultural saturation that superhero movies have.
posted by The River Ivel at 12:26 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I understand the enjoyment and escapism of the Marvel movies, but at some point, this has all turned into an endless meme of Leo pointing at the screen as various recognizable characters appear, as opposed to any sort of actual drama that connects with actual human emotion.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 12:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I find this interesting because I've always thought, "The Marvel juggernaut can't last forever," but I didn't know how it would end, and I have been curious to see how that would happen. Would people lose interest over time? Would the quality get so bad that folks stopped watching? Would something else become the next big thing and push Marvel off to the side? Would something financially catastrophic happen? I've been waiting, and it's interesting to see it start to play out.
Note, I haven't wondered about it because I hate Marvel. When my kids, now young adults, were small, we really enjoyed the movies and TV shows together, and my ex and I were both comics readers and sci-fi fans from way back. We had a lot of fun with Marvel for a long time. I kind of burned out on it awhile ago, but except for the way it seemed to drive away so many other kinds of movies that might have been made, I don't particularly wish the franchise ill.
posted by Well I never at 12:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Note, I haven't wondered about it because I hate Marvel. When my kids, now young adults, were small, we really enjoyed the movies and TV shows together, and my ex and I were both comics readers and sci-fi fans from way back. We had a lot of fun with Marvel for a long time. I kind of burned out on it awhile ago, but except for the way it seemed to drive away so many other kinds of movies that might have been made, I don't particularly wish the franchise ill.
posted by Well I never at 12:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Biggest issue for me is that I enjoy the movies, individually, and some of the shows, individually, but I can do so without needing every single show and movie to be intertwined and so connected that missing one episode of a minor third-tier character arc on streaming network X means half the new movie makes no sense to me.
This is what led me to stop reading comics as a college student back in the 80s. I got tired of being expected to buy 5 other comic tie-ins every month just to keep up with the X-Men.
posted by Well I never at 12:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
This is what led me to stop reading comics as a college student back in the 80s. I got tired of being expected to buy 5 other comic tie-ins every month just to keep up with the X-Men.
posted by Well I never at 12:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I'm a little baffled by why the Kang thing is such a problem. Just replace him with another actor and blame it on the Multiverse.
Back in the soap opera days, you'd be watching your story and some actor you'd never seen before would walk on screen. A voice over would say, "Today, the role of Peter Jenkins will be played by John Smith," and that was it. The part had been recast. And you'd all just roll with it.
posted by Well I never at 12:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
Back in the soap opera days, you'd be watching your story and some actor you'd never seen before would walk on screen. A voice over would say, "Today, the role of Peter Jenkins will be played by John Smith," and that was it. The part had been recast. And you'd all just roll with it.
posted by Well I never at 12:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
It feels like Marvel movies are where Marvel comics were in the mid-70s: the initial burst of creativity and novelty had petered off, continuity had become snarled, there was no cohesive overall editorial direction, etc.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:49 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:49 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think one contributing factor to the fatigue is that on almost any given day, weekday or weekend, you can find a Marvel movie on TV. Turn it on twenty minutes in the story, watch for a while, fold laundry, forget about it and come back two hours later -- boom -- it's another Marvel movie! Again, you missed the first fifteen minutes, but that's OK, you've watched this movie in 40 minute chunks many times over during the past year. (The days where this is not true, it's either Star Wars or Harry Potter).
Also, one thing they seem to miss is the more successful Marvel films have very simple stories, sympathetic hero, one villain, the villain has a bit of character development during the film, and the hero loses something, even though they might win in the end, with them winning through a subtly-telegraphed twist that is both surprising but obvious. Most of the movie takes place in the Real World, or at least follows Real World rules (not cartoon rules, GotG is spacey but still grounded, Quantumania was cartoony). Fights are elaborate but quick and move the plot.
The movies that do poorly are the ones that take the mold above and go "what if there's more fights!?" "Two villains -- no, THREE", "The twist may be goofy and deus ex machina, but it'll look cool", "we can't kill off their mom/dog/friend, people won't watch that", "people want more special effects, right? That's why they watch I think."
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, one thing they seem to miss is the more successful Marvel films have very simple stories, sympathetic hero, one villain, the villain has a bit of character development during the film, and the hero loses something, even though they might win in the end, with them winning through a subtly-telegraphed twist that is both surprising but obvious. Most of the movie takes place in the Real World, or at least follows Real World rules (not cartoon rules, GotG is spacey but still grounded, Quantumania was cartoony). Fights are elaborate but quick and move the plot.
The movies that do poorly are the ones that take the mold above and go "what if there's more fights!?" "Two villains -- no, THREE", "The twist may be goofy and deus ex machina, but it'll look cool", "we can't kill off their mom/dog/friend, people won't watch that", "people want more special effects, right? That's why they watch I think."
posted by AzraelBrown at 12:53 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I wonder how long it took for musicals to reach the same kind of cultural saturation that superhero movies have.The death of the movie musical by Lindsay Ellis is about this, at least in the Hollywood musical context.
posted by mbrubeck at 12:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
As an avowed comics movie hater I hope this juggernaut of dreck collapses under it's own weight and fucks up Disney as badly as possible.
posted by Ferreous at 12:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 12:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Back in the soap opera days, you'd be watching your story and some actor you'd never seen before would walk on screen. A voice over would say, "Today, the role of Peter Jenkins will be played by John Smith," and that was it. The part had been recast. And you'd all just roll with it.
Yeah- it was like Soap Operas were theater performances and the understudy was stepping in. They just dealt with it. And they didn't even have the MULTIVERSE at their service!
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah- it was like Soap Operas were theater performances and the understudy was stepping in. They just dealt with it. And they didn't even have the MULTIVERSE at their service!
posted by Liquidwolf at 12:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is what led me to stop reading comics as a college student back in the 80s. I got tired of being expected to buy 5 other comic tie-ins every month just to keep up with the X-Men.
The drive to consume all possible shelf space/printer time really helped that whole market reduce itself to rubble. The 'big' books now are selling the a comparable number to titles canceled back then.
posted by StarkRoads at 1:20 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The drive to consume all possible shelf space/printer time really helped that whole market reduce itself to rubble. The 'big' books now are selling the a comparable number to titles canceled back then.
posted by StarkRoads at 1:20 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I generally enjoyed Marvel movies. Some appeal was the centering of playful banter while DC was mired in dark DARK DARKER make everyone BROOD with a TRAGIC BACKSTORY! The superhero teams would somehow combine so many conflicting elements seemlessly: you'd think a Norse God, techlord in a metal suit, green muscle mutant, avatar of patriot kitsch, etc. would just be a goofy mess you couldn't suspend your disbelief in.
They were of their time, post war on terror putting a mostly optimistic spin atop self-criticism. Iron Man as an arms dealer growing a conscience. Captain America in Winter Soldier confronting his idealism with institutions that have become their avowed opposite. Marvel would choose top arty directors for Thor or Black Panther and give them free reign.
But maybe its moment is passing. The classic rock of Guardians of the Galaxy that was supposed to make the hero cool now makes him seem an out of touch Dad. Ok, Star Lord.
The energy and relevance in the superhero world now seems to me to be with The Boys and Gen V. Though The Boys took its source material from George W. Bush era politics, Homelander's narcissistic bullying fits our time. This stuff can't be mainstream, too violent and trenchant, but it's where the energy is.
posted by Schmucko at 1:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
They were of their time, post war on terror putting a mostly optimistic spin atop self-criticism. Iron Man as an arms dealer growing a conscience. Captain America in Winter Soldier confronting his idealism with institutions that have become their avowed opposite. Marvel would choose top arty directors for Thor or Black Panther and give them free reign.
But maybe its moment is passing. The classic rock of Guardians of the Galaxy that was supposed to make the hero cool now makes him seem an out of touch Dad. Ok, Star Lord.
The energy and relevance in the superhero world now seems to me to be with The Boys and Gen V. Though The Boys took its source material from George W. Bush era politics, Homelander's narcissistic bullying fits our time. This stuff can't be mainstream, too violent and trenchant, but it's where the energy is.
posted by Schmucko at 1:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah- it was like Soap Operas were theater performances and the understudy was stepping in. They just dealt with it. And they didn't even have the MULTIVERSE at their service!
I find it interesting the way different art forms have different conventions about these kinds of things. On a prime time TV series, the actor = the character 999/1000 times, but on soaps? Not so much. And of course theater accepts both understudies and different actors stepping into roles, as well as different productions and stagings. One of the pleasures of theater can be comparing versions you've seen of the same show, the same role played by different actors.
posted by Well I never at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find it interesting the way different art forms have different conventions about these kinds of things. On a prime time TV series, the actor = the character 999/1000 times, but on soaps? Not so much. And of course theater accepts both understudies and different actors stepping into roles, as well as different productions and stagings. One of the pleasures of theater can be comparing versions you've seen of the same show, the same role played by different actors.
posted by Well I never at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love the way Doctor Who turned recasting into a major plot point.
posted by Schmucko at 1:41 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 1:41 PM on November 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
I think I have Spandex Tsunami's second LP in a closet somewhere.
posted by chavenet at 1:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 1:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Turns out if your entire movie is special effects, they just don't seem special anymore
posted by oulipian at 1:45 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by oulipian at 1:45 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
While trick or treating with my nephew this year I noticed that aside from some Spider-folk, there were absolutely no Marvel costumes to be found. A huge change from previous years. It really feels like the moment has passed.
posted by moleplayingrough at 1:54 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by moleplayingrough at 1:54 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
The classic rock of Guardians of the Galaxy that was supposed to make the hero cool now makes him seem an out of touch Dad. Ok, Star Lord.
Pssst, the music was about him being emotionally stunted because he ran away/was kidnapped from Earth to be a pirate as a kid with nothing but a '70s mixtape to connect him to home.
posted by praemunire at 1:55 PM on November 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
Pssst, the music was about him being emotionally stunted because he ran away/was kidnapped from Earth to be a pirate as a kid with nothing but a '70s mixtape to connect him to home.
posted by praemunire at 1:55 PM on November 2, 2023 [23 favorites]
I never really got into the movies. I mean, I saw a few in theaters, but it was never a big deal for me (with the exception of Black Panther and the Guardians films). But I clicked with the first season of Loki. Something about its knowing silliness allowed it to bypass the logical centers if my brain. I’ve watched a few shows since (I liked Ms. Marvel and Moon Knight) but nothing that grabbed me like Loki.
So I was excited for season 2. And while all the things I enjoyed are still there, Majors is such a problem. I can’t watch him on screen without thinking about details of the allegations against him, and it takes me completely out of the fiction. Also, I looked up Tara Strong, and damn… well, at least she’s just a voice.
On some basic level I don’t want to hold Majors and Strong against the rest of the excellent ensemble, but I can’t choose to unknow what I know, and neither would I want to. I was fairly evangelical about the first season of Loki, but I only talk about the second season with people in relation to how uncomfortable it makes me feel.
I’ve long since stopped expecting entertainment companies to act out of common decency, but having Majors in your product is so obviously a bad business decision, that I’m a bit shocked that at the very least they didn’t think to get rid of him because of that.
posted by Kattullus at 1:55 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
So I was excited for season 2. And while all the things I enjoyed are still there, Majors is such a problem. I can’t watch him on screen without thinking about details of the allegations against him, and it takes me completely out of the fiction. Also, I looked up Tara Strong, and damn… well, at least she’s just a voice.
On some basic level I don’t want to hold Majors and Strong against the rest of the excellent ensemble, but I can’t choose to unknow what I know, and neither would I want to. I was fairly evangelical about the first season of Loki, but I only talk about the second season with people in relation to how uncomfortable it makes me feel.
I’ve long since stopped expecting entertainment companies to act out of common decency, but having Majors in your product is so obviously a bad business decision, that I’m a bit shocked that at the very least they didn’t think to get rid of him because of that.
posted by Kattullus at 1:55 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Turns out if your entire movie is special effects, they just don't seem special anymore
Some of the latest Marvel CGI has made me long for the days of "the effect too special to show."
posted by praemunire at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Some of the latest Marvel CGI has made me long for the days of "the effect too special to show."
posted by praemunire at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, the FPP title bothers me more than it should: Crises are a DC thing.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:05 PM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
I’ve long since stopped expecting entertainment companies to act out of common decency, but having Majors in your product is so obviously a bad business decision, that I’m a bit shocked that at the very least they didn’t think to get rid of him because of that.
They are getting rid of him, that's one of their problems- how to proceed with his character without Majors. They know he's bad for their brand. Also, the films and shows were all made before the controversy with him.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:05 PM on November 2, 2023
They are getting rid of him, that's one of their problems- how to proceed with his character without Majors. They know he's bad for their brand. Also, the films and shows were all made before the controversy with him.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:05 PM on November 2, 2023
$30 billion from 32 films in 15 years. I think it's ok to move on.
posted by gwint at 2:20 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by gwint at 2:20 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The multiverse gives the writers essentially infinite leeway to do anything. They can make the movies as interesting, surreal, and experimental as they want. Ironman as a middle-aged mall Santa spiraling into alcoholism. Captain America but it’s a pirate musical. Antman as a literal ant, in a colony of thousands of Antmen, having an existential crisis. Black Widow as a cutthroat, thrice-divorced studio executive trying to get a Marvel movie made while mostly failing as a mother. Catgirl Hulk in a cold war spy thriller. Thor as a muppet who’s slowly realizing he’s trapped in a computer simulation. There are no rules here. The only limits are self-imposed.
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 2:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I distinctly remember watching Captain America: Civil war at the cinema, and when we came out I turned to my Boyf and said "I really hope that the MCU don't repeat the mistakes of Marvel comics and make enjoying any of the individual movies require additional homework."
Nobody wants to have to/feel obligated to watch other movies - or entire TV series! - to understand what is going on in the one movie they're currently watching, and that was in 2016.. way before Wandavision on Disney+ in 2021.
They could of planned not to do this. The myriad mistakes of the comic industry were *right there* to view and learn from, but nooooo.
posted by Faintdreams at 2:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Nobody wants to have to/feel obligated to watch other movies - or entire TV series! - to understand what is going on in the one movie they're currently watching, and that was in 2016.. way before Wandavision on Disney+ in 2021.
They could of planned not to do this. The myriad mistakes of the comic industry were *right there* to view and learn from, but nooooo.
posted by Faintdreams at 2:27 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
While trick or treating with my nephew this year I noticed that aside from some Spider-folk, there were absolutely no Marvel costumes to be found. A huge change from previous years. It really feels like the moment has passed.
A few superheroes did ring my doorbell for treats: Captain America, Spider-man and Chainsaw Man. I was giving out packs of comic books (superhero and others) with candy to almost universal excitement; one young person did ask "what are these?" to their friends.
posted by JDC8 at 2:34 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
A few superheroes did ring my doorbell for treats: Captain America, Spider-man and Chainsaw Man. I was giving out packs of comic books (superhero and others) with candy to almost universal excitement; one young person did ask "what are these?" to their friends.
posted by JDC8 at 2:34 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
jamjam, he's super strong. that's why he can lift the very big hammer.
It's funny because it's bigger than a normal hammer
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:41 PM on November 2, 2023
It's funny because it's bigger than a normal hammer
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:41 PM on November 2, 2023
The morning I had the thought: what if Robert Downey, Jr wants back into the MCU? Cast him as a Kang! Imagine a timeline in which Tony survived Endgame. Now you have Tony Stark with a working time machine, a time machine he's already used to alter the timeline. "Imagine a suit of armor around history."
posted by SPrintF at 3:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 3:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
SPrintF, it's funny you should mention that! Marvel's recent reboot/reimagining of their Ultimate line of comics has me thinking that they're willing to explore that idea (their comics these days often feel like market research into what they might do next).
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 4:31 PM on November 2, 2023
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 4:31 PM on November 2, 2023
"Imagine a suit of armor around history."
Imagine a pair of metal gauntlets that shoot history!
posted by The Tensor at 4:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Imagine a pair of metal gauntlets that shoot history!
posted by The Tensor at 4:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
The multiverse gives the writers essentially infinite leeway to do anything. They can make the movies as interesting, surreal, and experimental as they want.
Alas, you pretty much only get the weird, fun shit in fandom with fanfiction, which also has a side of bonus porn with all its whacky premises. Like, one of my favorite recent AU fics transposed/transformed the plot of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier into a season of Bake Off with an added Sam/Bucky romance, and it was honestly delightful. Would it be neat if the MCU did something truly weird and off the wall with the multiverse? Yes. Will they ever? No. (I mean, yes, there was the What If... series, but even that stuck with pretty straightforward premises like "what if zombies" and "what if this character ended up in that character's role.")
I saw this particular stage of the MCU coming way back when the first Avengers movie teased the whole Thanos thing, and I knew I'd be out as soon as the movie franchise got close to as bloated and referential as the comics, and yup, here we are. The thing is, I'm still in the fandom, in the sense that I care about my favorite characters and will read and write fic and reblog stuff on Tumblr. But the second Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes walked off into the literal sunset together, their arms around each other, I was like, "Ah, perfect. I don't need anything more than this from canon. Thank you for that scene where they fixed a boat together, I will dine on hundreds of thousands of words of fanfiction about their friendship and/or love story now, goodbye." And, like, I really don't need or want more canon! Especially when any given installment of canon ends with a tedious, pointless, boring 30 minute final act giant CGI battle that almost never does anything new or interesting.
The only thing I might be interested in is if a new installment actually focused on my favorite characters, and not some big! epic! save the world/universe stakes! Because I know these stakes are going to be resolved with Big CGI Battle. Maybe some people will die, but ultimately, it will be Yet Another Big CGI Battle. And I do not care. Lower the stakes, and I'll care. Give me a small, personal story, and I will care. (Ms. Marvel kind of succeeded at this.)
posted by yasaman at 4:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Alas, you pretty much only get the weird, fun shit in fandom with fanfiction, which also has a side of bonus porn with all its whacky premises. Like, one of my favorite recent AU fics transposed/transformed the plot of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier into a season of Bake Off with an added Sam/Bucky romance, and it was honestly delightful. Would it be neat if the MCU did something truly weird and off the wall with the multiverse? Yes. Will they ever? No. (I mean, yes, there was the What If... series, but even that stuck with pretty straightforward premises like "what if zombies" and "what if this character ended up in that character's role.")
I saw this particular stage of the MCU coming way back when the first Avengers movie teased the whole Thanos thing, and I knew I'd be out as soon as the movie franchise got close to as bloated and referential as the comics, and yup, here we are. The thing is, I'm still in the fandom, in the sense that I care about my favorite characters and will read and write fic and reblog stuff on Tumblr. But the second Sam Wilson and Bucky Barnes walked off into the literal sunset together, their arms around each other, I was like, "Ah, perfect. I don't need anything more than this from canon. Thank you for that scene where they fixed a boat together, I will dine on hundreds of thousands of words of fanfiction about their friendship and/or love story now, goodbye." And, like, I really don't need or want more canon! Especially when any given installment of canon ends with a tedious, pointless, boring 30 minute final act giant CGI battle that almost never does anything new or interesting.
The only thing I might be interested in is if a new installment actually focused on my favorite characters, and not some big! epic! save the world/universe stakes! Because I know these stakes are going to be resolved with Big CGI Battle. Maybe some people will die, but ultimately, it will be Yet Another Big CGI Battle. And I do not care. Lower the stakes, and I'll care. Give me a small, personal story, and I will care. (Ms. Marvel kind of succeeded at this.)
posted by yasaman at 4:50 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
The River Ivel: I wonder how long it took for musicals to reach the same kind of cultural saturation that superhero movies have.
I grew up on my parent's LPs of West Side Story and, as they divorced, Evita, and they took me to see performances of Brigadoon and Camelot. Later, I found out about opera, and I'm delighted by newish works like The Exterminating Angel and Doctor Atomic. Sure, Brigadoon and Camelot seem corny by today's standards (although the latter delightfully skewers aspects of its time's sexual politics), just like I'm sure Eternals and The Batman will not age particularly well, but I'm not willing to indict the entirety of a genre that gave us The Dark Knight and the astonishing excitement I felt seeing the first Iron Man and thinking, "They actually did a superhero movie right and made it fun!"
I know we're in "Metafilter: Your favorite band sucks" territory, but having seen Robert Lepage's staging of Wagner's Ring at the Met in 2012, I think there are plenty of breathtaking things that can be done to breathe new life and perspective into old genres—just look at how the MCU took the wildly uneven kid's-stuff superhero genre (Batman and Robin, Christopher Reeve, Spider-Man 3, the X-Men movies, etc.) and made it into something grownups could (occasionally) enjoy without holding our noses. I enjoyed the hell out of recent musicals like Fela! and Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, and I'm not willing to pre-emptively declare that Gutenberg! The Musical or How to Dance in Ohio are stupid or worthless or epiphenomena of a deeper cultural malaise or whatever.
Yeah, Marvel had a nice product in the late oughts and people devoured it so they made more. Are we still acting like we're surprised by capitalism? No need to yuck people's yum—I think there are other things in the world to get spun up and engage in therapeutic virtue-signaling about.
posted by vitia at 5:38 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I grew up on my parent's LPs of West Side Story and, as they divorced, Evita, and they took me to see performances of Brigadoon and Camelot. Later, I found out about opera, and I'm delighted by newish works like The Exterminating Angel and Doctor Atomic. Sure, Brigadoon and Camelot seem corny by today's standards (although the latter delightfully skewers aspects of its time's sexual politics), just like I'm sure Eternals and The Batman will not age particularly well, but I'm not willing to indict the entirety of a genre that gave us The Dark Knight and the astonishing excitement I felt seeing the first Iron Man and thinking, "They actually did a superhero movie right and made it fun!"
I know we're in "Metafilter: Your favorite band sucks" territory, but having seen Robert Lepage's staging of Wagner's Ring at the Met in 2012, I think there are plenty of breathtaking things that can be done to breathe new life and perspective into old genres—just look at how the MCU took the wildly uneven kid's-stuff superhero genre (Batman and Robin, Christopher Reeve, Spider-Man 3, the X-Men movies, etc.) and made it into something grownups could (occasionally) enjoy without holding our noses. I enjoyed the hell out of recent musicals like Fela! and Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson, and I'm not willing to pre-emptively declare that Gutenberg! The Musical or How to Dance in Ohio are stupid or worthless or epiphenomena of a deeper cultural malaise or whatever.
Yeah, Marvel had a nice product in the late oughts and people devoured it so they made more. Are we still acting like we're surprised by capitalism? No need to yuck people's yum—I think there are other things in the world to get spun up and engage in therapeutic virtue-signaling about.
posted by vitia at 5:38 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure Eternals […] will not age particularly wellIsn't being good in the first place a prerequisite to aging poorly?
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 6:10 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think really all I need is for them to take a break for a bit. Give it five years, let the memories marinate, then maybe revisit them. There's just so damn much content.
I mean, I find their stuff fun enough, enjoy them enough, find them diverting and pleasant entertainment —for the most part—but the nonstop content takes that fun out of it.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:41 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, I find their stuff fun enough, enjoy them enough, find them diverting and pleasant entertainment —for the most part—but the nonstop content takes that fun out of it.
posted by los pantalones del muerte at 6:41 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Would it be neat if the MCU did something truly weird and off the wall with the multiverse?
Hotdog Fingers the hero! Oh wait, it's been done.
Loki almost jumped into that pool, omg, if they had dumped that serious actor Loki and gone with crocodile loki just out of the blue it would have changed everything. What a writing challenge. I'm sure there are fine writers and directors that could go a lot of cool directions, like say Blue Beetle that I have not seen but sounds interesting but no burning new box office records. Which is what it's about and the next spiderman, no matter how repetitive or lame, will crush the beetle on name alone.
posted by sammyo at 8:25 PM on November 2, 2023
Hotdog Fingers the hero! Oh wait, it's been done.
Loki almost jumped into that pool, omg, if they had dumped that serious actor Loki and gone with crocodile loki just out of the blue it would have changed everything. What a writing challenge. I'm sure there are fine writers and directors that could go a lot of cool directions, like say Blue Beetle that I have not seen but sounds interesting but no burning new box office records. Which is what it's about and the next spiderman, no matter how repetitive or lame, will crush the beetle on name alone.
posted by sammyo at 8:25 PM on November 2, 2023
Whenever a problematic actor needs to be replaced at short notice it should always be with Tig Notaro. No exceptions.
posted by krisjohn at 1:36 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 1:36 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
Yeah, Marvel had a nice product in the late oughts and people devoured it so they made more.
Perhaps I am missing the sly shade here, but if the late oughts end at 2010, that is all of two feature films, one of which is barely recalled these days at all (it took years for anything in it to be acknowledged by a subsequent release).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:37 AM on November 3, 2023
Perhaps I am missing the sly shade here, but if the late oughts end at 2010, that is all of two feature films, one of which is barely recalled these days at all (it took years for anything in it to be acknowledged by a subsequent release).
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:37 AM on November 3, 2023
When the credits rolled at the world premiere of “Quantumania,” shock rippled through the Regency Village Theatre in Westwood over some shoddy CGI. “There were at least 10 scenes where the visual effects had been added at the last minute and were out of focus, [emphasis mine]”Not the main thrust of the article, but it's wild to me that a computer-generated thing can be unintentionally out of focus. I would think that depth of field effects are real-world artifacts that would have to be carefully crafted in CGI.
posted by HeroZero at 6:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
a single episode of “She-Hulk” costing some $25 million
...
Speculation around town is that the studio is looking to make the film, now slated for 2025, on a budget of less than $100 million — a deviation from Marvel’s big-spending strategy.
...
Then there was ‘Quantummania’ with $476 million. Anything under a half billion dollars is viewed as a disappointment.
Wild numbers at both ends of the process.
Like Star Wars, I have MCU fatigue and am no longer even sure what I've missed in the past few years. For me, but probably not for Feige, the solution is just putting out less with smaller budgets and more creative freedom.
Guardians of the Galaxy was a weird pull so early in the life of the MCU but it's been the most consistent because of Gunn and the fact that they can be more risky with characters that people who haven't seen a single MCU movie won't know, unlike Spider-Man or Iron Man. Gunn is doing the same over on the DC side with Suicide Squad.
The other successes in my mind are the stories that have smaller stakes. The Spider-Man Homecoming film was him vs. a thief. In the MCU proper they literally had to bring in the multiverse and infinite timelines because they ran out of stakes to raise.
Find film makers who know and care about comics and give them less money but more freedom to get weird with it.
posted by slimepuppy at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
...
Speculation around town is that the studio is looking to make the film, now slated for 2025, on a budget of less than $100 million — a deviation from Marvel’s big-spending strategy.
...
Then there was ‘Quantummania’ with $476 million. Anything under a half billion dollars is viewed as a disappointment.
Wild numbers at both ends of the process.
Like Star Wars, I have MCU fatigue and am no longer even sure what I've missed in the past few years. For me, but probably not for Feige, the solution is just putting out less with smaller budgets and more creative freedom.
Guardians of the Galaxy was a weird pull so early in the life of the MCU but it's been the most consistent because of Gunn and the fact that they can be more risky with characters that people who haven't seen a single MCU movie won't know, unlike Spider-Man or Iron Man. Gunn is doing the same over on the DC side with Suicide Squad.
The other successes in my mind are the stories that have smaller stakes. The Spider-Man Homecoming film was him vs. a thief. In the MCU proper they literally had to bring in the multiverse and infinite timelines because they ran out of stakes to raise.
Find film makers who know and care about comics and give them less money but more freedom to get weird with it.
posted by slimepuppy at 8:22 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Imagine a suit of armor around history."
Imagine a pair of metal gauntlets that shoot history!
Kevin Feige [nodding thoughtfully] how much do these gauntlets glow and/or have a mind of its own?
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2023
Imagine a pair of metal gauntlets that shoot history!
Kevin Feige [nodding thoughtfully] how much do these gauntlets glow and/or have a mind of its own?
posted by AzraelBrown at 9:35 AM on November 3, 2023
Ironman as a middle-aged mall Santa spiraling into alcoholism. Captain America but it’s a pirate musical. Antman as a literal ant, in a colony of thousands of Antmen, having an existential crisis. Black Widow as a cutthroat, thrice-divorced studio executive trying to get a Marvel movie made while mostly failing as a mother. Catgirl Hulk in a cold war spy thriller. Thor as a muppet who’s slowly realizing he’s trapped in a computer simulation.
Shut up and take my money! Then make all of these.
posted by jackbishop at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Shut up and take my money! Then make all of these.
posted by jackbishop at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
This has been such a weird spate of articles. "Hey, you know those movies and shows you keep watching and keep enjoying? Nobody is watching and enjoying them. You know the specific innovation that Marvel Comics had, its interconnected universe, that made people love it? Everybody hates it and trying to show it in the movies is an obvious mistake."
What kind of anti-PR firm is paying for this stuff? Fortunately we can all just ignore these articles and keep on enjoying the fun movies without caring about whether we're upsetting the big critics.
posted by one for the books at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
What kind of anti-PR firm is paying for this stuff? Fortunately we can all just ignore these articles and keep on enjoying the fun movies without caring about whether we're upsetting the big critics.
posted by one for the books at 10:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Not the main thrust of the article, but it's wild to me that a computer-generated thing can be unintentionally out of focus
Films have looked a certain way for almost a hundred years, so computer generated stuff looking too perfect is a problem because your subconscious might be screaming “this doesn’t look right!” even if you don’t realize it.
Pixar spent like a billion dollars developing the technology to introduce very specific optical lens distortion effects back into their movies. When you watch it, your brain tells you “this shit is real life, it was filmed with a camera and anamorphic spherical lenses“ even if you don’t notice.
I never saw it, but that might be what Ant Man and Friends was going after, even if they sucked in the execution.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Films have looked a certain way for almost a hundred years, so computer generated stuff looking too perfect is a problem because your subconscious might be screaming “this doesn’t look right!” even if you don’t realize it.
Pixar spent like a billion dollars developing the technology to introduce very specific optical lens distortion effects back into their movies. When you watch it, your brain tells you “this shit is real life, it was filmed with a camera and anamorphic spherical lenses“ even if you don’t notice.
I never saw it, but that might be what Ant Man and Friends was going after, even if they sucked in the execution.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:38 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
From the sound of this article, Kevin Feige's process is to look at scenes that have been filmed and then piece the story together from there. That's an expensive way to work, but it sort of ok for movies. For TV, it's a terrible way to work, because you're putting together multiple hours of story and if you need that process to create a finished product, you're really screwed if you realize you need to change episode 6 to make episode 1 work.
Marvel is learning and realizing that their movie process isn't great for TV, so they're adjusting. They also tried to make too much with too little infrastructure, which 'caused a drop in quality across multiple shows. Go slow y'all, and build, you don't need to put a bunch of stuff out by X time.
The MCU isn't ruined, but they definitely need to work on making shows and movies at a lower price. There's no reason that movie should need to make at least half a billion dollars in order to break even. That can't be sustained and such huge failures will hurt harder.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 3, 2023
Marvel is learning and realizing that their movie process isn't great for TV, so they're adjusting. They also tried to make too much with too little infrastructure, which 'caused a drop in quality across multiple shows. Go slow y'all, and build, you don't need to put a bunch of stuff out by X time.
The MCU isn't ruined, but they definitely need to work on making shows and movies at a lower price. There's no reason that movie should need to make at least half a billion dollars in order to break even. That can't be sustained and such huge failures will hurt harder.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:17 PM on November 3, 2023
stuff looking too perfect is a problem
Go motion introduced motion blur to stop motion animation. Without go motion, the models would be perfectly in focus in every frame, and your eye sees that and your brain says, "fake!" The film Dragonslayer used go motion extensively to create realistic figure animation.
posted by SPrintF at 2:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Go motion introduced motion blur to stop motion animation. Without go motion, the models would be perfectly in focus in every frame, and your eye sees that and your brain says, "fake!" The film Dragonslayer used go motion extensively to create realistic figure animation.
posted by SPrintF at 2:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pixar spent like a billion dollars developing the technology to introduce very specific optical lens distortion effects back into their movies. When you watch it, your brain tells you “this shit is real life, it was filmed with a camera and anamorphic spherical lenses“ even if you don’t notice.
This has the exact opposite effect on me. When I see Shrek and Donkey walking through a field and there is "lens flare" on the "camera" from "the sun", my supension of disbelief is shattered.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:28 PM on November 3, 2023
This has the exact opposite effect on me. When I see Shrek and Donkey walking through a field and there is "lens flare" on the "camera" from "the sun", my supension of disbelief is shattered.
posted by a non mouse, a cow herd at 2:28 PM on November 3, 2023
This has been such a weird spate of articles. "Hey, you know those movies and shows you keep watching and keep enjoying? Nobody is watching and enjoying them. You know the specific innovation that Marvel Comics had, its interconnected universe, that made people love it? Everybody hates it and trying to show it in the movies is an obvious mistake."Imagine if today in 2023 a type of movie you have little interest in took over the entire movie industry to the point that there were fewer movies released in any other genre. Definitely a lot fewer movies that aren't whatever genre it is with a budget past 10 million.
Fifteen years from now you'd probably be pretty happy to read about how interest in the new movie fad was fading amid incompetence and backbiting at the chief studio making whatever it is. The space left in theatres by the collapse might even get them to start making comic book movies again.
posted by zymil at 8:42 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Someone upthread mentioned how the MCU was getting more like the comics and as an (ex) comics reader, that's how I felt about it. I remember coming out of Winter Soldier and thinking both that if they could do more like that (superhero X other genre), the MCU people had struck gold AND that that was probably the height of the MCU (possibly the first third of the first GOTG movie), and I don't feel like I was wrong.
But yeah, it all feels like the comics now: too big, too many people, too formulaic, and often too much trouble before you put the toys back into the toy box with no changes, except killing (usually the wrong) people.
I really want Marvel and DC to put out movies (and TV shows) I'm interested in but I'm realistic and think that ship has sailed. Also yeah, just recast Majors.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:07 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
But yeah, it all feels like the comics now: too big, too many people, too formulaic, and often too much trouble before you put the toys back into the toy box with no changes, except killing (usually the wrong) people.
I really want Marvel and DC to put out movies (and TV shows) I'm interested in but I'm realistic and think that ship has sailed. Also yeah, just recast Majors.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 12:07 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I agree that much of Marvel's output is trending toward dull sameness these days. At the same time, in the larger context of "superhero-themed content," the "multiverse" theme has allowed other non-Marvel properties to push some artistic boundaries. I look at recent streaming stuff—the puppet massacre scene in Amazon's GenV S1E5, the dance-off in Netflix's Umbrella Academy S3E1—and I'm absolutely gleeful at the gratuitous throwing-away of cinematic realism that seems to have found its apotheosis thus far in Everything Everywhere All At Once. I'm not saying GenV or Umbrella Academy are good—they're OK—but I feel at least some sense that comics-related innovations in artistic form (Deadpool's fourth wall breaking, e.g., isn't new, but I'm all for popularizing metafiction) are having a net positive effect on mainstream media.
posted by vitia at 12:20 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by vitia at 12:20 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like, one of my favorite recent AU fics transposed/transformed the plot of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier into a season of Bake Off with an added Sam/Bucky romance, and it was honestly delightful
You can't just say a thing like this and not offer the name of it or something. This sounds right up my alley.
posted by Well I never at 7:14 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can't just say a thing like this and not offer the name of it or something. This sounds right up my alley.
posted by Well I never at 7:14 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I once had a conversation with an English person about why Australian soaps were so popular in the UK, popular to the extent that Neighbours and Home and Away are identified as the sources of expressions ('no worries', etc.) entering UK usage. He said, it's because it offers a consistent and reliable emotional tenor; despite the actors coming and going very frequently, new characters getting introduced and killed off, and yes, even the comic multi-verse trick of reintroducing 'dead' characters, ridiculous plot lines, gaping continuity holes, and all of that, there's a really carefully curated sense of drama that just doesn't need back story. Remember that there is probably no good estimate of the number of characters in these show, it would be many, many hundreds. They're sprawled exercises that make comic book movie narratives look disciplined.
Soap is a formula, a really restrictive one, but it lets writers and actors pull off something with real longevity. You can miss months of the show, turn it on again, and pick it up again within a few episodes, because if you don't have to worry about investment in the story arc of some teenager who's not going to be there in a year (perhaps to stardom, celebrity marriage, or the pop charts; perhaps fired) the emotional tone of PG-rated not-quite-inconsequential drama that appeals now is absolutely, precisely, as appealing as it was in 1985.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:29 PM on November 5, 2023
Soap is a formula, a really restrictive one, but it lets writers and actors pull off something with real longevity. You can miss months of the show, turn it on again, and pick it up again within a few episodes, because if you don't have to worry about investment in the story arc of some teenager who's not going to be there in a year (perhaps to stardom, celebrity marriage, or the pop charts; perhaps fired) the emotional tone of PG-rated not-quite-inconsequential drama that appeals now is absolutely, precisely, as appealing as it was in 1985.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:29 PM on November 5, 2023
You can't just say a thing like this and not offer the name of it or something. This sounds right up my alley.
The aforementioned fic is here! Usually I don't like mundane takes on superhero universes, but this one was charming, and I was impressed with how effectively the canon stakes were transposed to such a different setting. Whenever I see that well done in fic, I'm reminded how much I want to see the use of lower plot stakes but higher character stakes in the actual MCU.
posted by yasaman at 2:13 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
The aforementioned fic is here! Usually I don't like mundane takes on superhero universes, but this one was charming, and I was impressed with how effectively the canon stakes were transposed to such a different setting. Whenever I see that well done in fic, I'm reminded how much I want to see the use of lower plot stakes but higher character stakes in the actual MCU.
posted by yasaman at 2:13 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've been wondering how much the writers strike impacted everything. I'd be unsurprised if writers were providing changes super late in the game, they downed tools, and things that could have really used small tactical nudges and corrections just didn't.
If that's part of it, considering the length of the pipelines, we have a lot of mehness ahead.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:32 AM on November 7, 2023
If that's part of it, considering the length of the pipelines, we have a lot of mehness ahead.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:32 AM on November 7, 2023
« Older If lining a hat with tinfoil gives a person a... | "So, when do the cops actually enforce gun laws?" Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by sagc at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]