Nonanism
November 12, 2023 12:58 PM Subscribe
Therein lies the overlap between NoFap and neo-Nazism—a hydraulic worldview that combines the self-help semen-retention ethos with the conspiracy theorizing of the Far Right, pushing an age-old “technology of the self” into the realm of the political fringe. This paranoid model of NoFap interlaces two modes of thought with distinct historical origins, combining a vision of self-improvement with infiltration anxiety: “they” are meeting in dimly lit rooms, plotting how to get your “precious bodily fluids” out of you. from No Fap: A Cultural History of Anti-Masturbation [LARB; ungated]
There's no beating it.
posted by y2karl at 1:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [48 favorites]
The tract’s author, according to Laqueur, turned out to be a surgeon who moonlit as a writer of “soft-core medical pornography,” and who was trying to sell more of his expensive snake-oil tinctures as “cures” for a disease he personally had invented. Onania became a smash commercial success, appearing in thousands of newspapers and coffeehouses alongside adverts for its author’s quack medicines.
Well I guess that aspect of human behavior under capitalism hasn’t changed much in the intervening centuries.
posted by eviemath at 1:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well I guess that aspect of human behavior under capitalism hasn’t changed much in the intervening centuries.
posted by eviemath at 1:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Nazis are just so f*cking weird.
posted by chronkite at 1:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 1:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [22 favorites]
command-F "strangelove" was not disappointed.
--
how did hitler masturbate? with his reich hand!
posted by lalochezia at 1:41 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
--
how did hitler masturbate? with his reich hand!
posted by lalochezia at 1:41 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Limiting ejaculation has long been a technique in Chinese Medicine and Internal Alchemy practices. Many serious meditative paths also advise severely limiting it, not only due to losing Qi but for avoiding the endless and distracting animal craving of sex on the mind.
And regardless of whatever weird right wing politics some of these people might be into, I don't see anything wrong with discouraging addiction to pornography and masturbation.
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
And regardless of whatever weird right wing politics some of these people might be into, I don't see anything wrong with discouraging addiction to pornography and masturbation.
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
From the article:
Introduced by Dr. Eugen Steinach, the 20-minute procedure involved tying off one of the seminal ducts—in other words, performing a partial vasectomy. This procedure was all the rage in the 1920s, conducted not to prevent pregnancy but to restore youth and vigor to older men through a form of “semen retention” within the body that allegedly increased the production of sex hormones, resulting in “rejuvenation.”posted by spamandkimchi at 1:55 PM on November 12, 2023 [9 favorites]
Steinach outlined the effects of his operation as follows: “[The patients] changed from feeble, parched, dribbling drones, to men of vigorous bloom who threw away their glasses, shaved twice a day, dragged loads up to 220 pounds, and even indulged in such youthful follies as buying land in Florida.”
The Steinach operation implicitly subscribes to a hydraulic model of semen as vital energy, so much so that Freud himself underwent the operation at age 67 in the hopes of improving his sexual vigor and ability to work. Though the procedure has now been debunked, it had copious testimonials at the time from overjoyed, rejuvenated men who swore by its magic. Among the most famous of its advocates was the poet William Butler Yeats (1865–1939): “It revived my creative power,” he declared in 1937.
Nothing about Wilhelm Reich and Orgone energy in the article, but that would likely be both-sidesing an issue perhaps too much for even this day and age.
posted by hippybear at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
You'll always win No Nut November if you have an orchiectomy.
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:10 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
And regardless of whatever weird right wing politics some of these people might be into, I don't see anything wrong with discouraging addiction to pornography and masturbation
Well sure - but where’s the line? Unless your position is that pornography and masturbation are always bad, what’s the criteria for when it becomes an addiction? I’m sure we can all point to clear cases we’d mostly agree on, but this movement is not about placing reasonable limitations on normal sexual behavior, it’s about labeling the behavior as inherently harmful, and I just cannot agree.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:15 PM on November 12, 2023 [51 favorites]
Well sure - but where’s the line? Unless your position is that pornography and masturbation are always bad, what’s the criteria for when it becomes an addiction? I’m sure we can all point to clear cases we’d mostly agree on, but this movement is not about placing reasonable limitations on normal sexual behavior, it’s about labeling the behavior as inherently harmful, and I just cannot agree.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:15 PM on November 12, 2023 [51 favorites]
The tract’s author, according to Laqueur, turned out to be a surgeon who moonlit as a writer of “soft-core medical pornography,” and who was trying to sell more of his expensive snake-oil tinctures as “cures” for a disease he personally had invented.
So… sort of an 18th Andrew Wakefield, then.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:16 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
So… sort of an 18th Andrew Wakefield, then.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:16 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Unless your position is that pornography and masturbation are always bad, what’s the criteria for when it becomes an addiction?
Isn't the sort of classic definition of an addiction the point at which a behavior interferes with the normal enjoyment of your life?
So, like if you're doing the porn thing to the point where it's interfering with your work or ability to relate to others, it's an addiction.
I don't think that this is really a difficult thing to define in anyone's mind, and it's assuming that there is a slippery slope or a simple binary when neither are true are mindsets that feed into really negative attitudes about sex and porn in society.
posted by hippybear at 2:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
Isn't the sort of classic definition of an addiction the point at which a behavior interferes with the normal enjoyment of your life?
So, like if you're doing the porn thing to the point where it's interfering with your work or ability to relate to others, it's an addiction.
I don't think that this is really a difficult thing to define in anyone's mind, and it's assuming that there is a slippery slope or a simple binary when neither are true are mindsets that feed into really negative attitudes about sex and porn in society.
posted by hippybear at 2:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
Also, it takes a particular kind of bad reader to think the story of Onan has anything to do with masturbation. Oman’s sun is defying God, who explicitly told him to get his brother’s widow pregnant. Defying God, in the Old Testament, is a sure-fire route to getting smote.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [19 favorites]
I recall an essay in the New York Review a long time ago which pointed out how readily Freudianism adapted itself to a hydrodynamic view of the psyche.
Durkheim adopted thermodynamics and Freud fluid mechanics, perhaps unconsciously, which would be fitting.
But who, I thought, took up electricity? Along with Maxwell's work and the Ether? I didn’t think of Reich until hippybear brought him in from the cold.
posted by jamjam at 2:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Durkheim adopted thermodynamics and Freud fluid mechanics, perhaps unconsciously, which would be fitting.
But who, I thought, took up electricity? Along with Maxwell's work and the Ether? I didn’t think of Reich until hippybear brought him in from the cold.
posted by jamjam at 2:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Cheers, showbiz_liz. Thank you for that lucid retort. People are so unaware of the slight but persistent nudges of our received biases - Puritanical in this case - that they fail to see who's operating the levers and think it natural and normal to disregard healthy and pleasurable urges largely in the name of social confirmity (and not to help with any actual addiction).
Did I think No Nut November is barely camouflaged fascism before this article? Why, yes, of course. Remember, everyone, don't fuck Hitler but do play with your meats: it's why you get your pudding.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
Did I think No Nut November is barely camouflaged fascism before this article? Why, yes, of course. Remember, everyone, don't fuck Hitler but do play with your meats: it's why you get your pudding.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [16 favorites]
Well sure - but where’s the line? Unless your position is that pornography and masturbation are always bad, what’s the criteria for when it becomes an addiction? I’m sure we can all point to clear cases we’d mostly agree on, but this movement is not about placing reasonable limitations on normal sexual behavior, it’s about labeling the behavior as inherently harmful, and I just cannot agree.
It's pretty subjective, but I'd say anyone who habitually does it every day has trained their body to expect that euphoric rush of the orgasm daily- whether that's a good thing or not is debatable.
But though there are different degrees of pornography, no one can honestly argue that pornography is good for a society since most of it today is very misogynistic and objectifies women.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:32 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's pretty subjective, but I'd say anyone who habitually does it every day has trained their body to expect that euphoric rush of the orgasm daily- whether that's a good thing or not is debatable.
But though there are different degrees of pornography, no one can honestly argue that pornography is good for a society since most of it today is very misogynistic and objectifies women.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:32 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Defying God, in the Old Testament, is a sure-fire route to getting smote.
Modern Christians are perhaps somewhat unwilling to accept that defying God could come in the form of refusing to have sex outside marriage.
I wasn't at all aware of the history of Onanism and this was an interesting read. I'm not surprised there's a link between NoFap and fascism, because it's the same flavour of toxic masculinity and blaming 'others' for all your problems in the end.
posted by dg at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Modern Christians are perhaps somewhat unwilling to accept that defying God could come in the form of refusing to have sex outside marriage.
I wasn't at all aware of the history of Onanism and this was an interesting read. I'm not surprised there's a link between NoFap and fascism, because it's the same flavour of toxic masculinity and blaming 'others' for all your problems in the end.
posted by dg at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Habitually" is doing a lot of work there, LiquidWolf. If it's such an important thing to work on, why don't we call it Raising Awareness for Sexual and Pornographic Addiction November. It being essentially a contest and the branding as it were towards adolescents and young adults is not in line with that goal. It just perpetuates the notion that both are BAD in groups of people who are readily influenced.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:37 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:37 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
It’s good and healthy to cycle the fluids in your prostate on a regular basis. Long term study show a reduction in occurrence of prostate cancer for frequent (20 times a month or more) ejaculators. Spend for health!
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [48 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 2:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [48 favorites]
Weird to say that an article about nofap is up my alley, but it certainly is! Gonna read this.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Going To Maine at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
....and so I encourage you to participate in "Down and Dirty" Prostate Health November!
That tagline may need some work though
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
That tagline may need some work though
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 2:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
"Habitually" is doing a lot of work there, LiquidWolf. If it's such an important thing to work on, why don't we call it Raising Awareness for Sexual and Pornographic Addiction November. It being essentially a contest and the branding as it were towards adolescents and young adults is not in line with that goal. It just perpetuates the notion that both are BAD in groups of people who are readily influenced.
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say with all this but I stand by my original comment.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't quite follow what you're trying to say with all this but I stand by my original comment.
posted by Liquidwolf at 2:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
“Pull one off for prostate health”
posted by eviemath at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
"masturbation: is there anything it cannot do?"
posted by chavenet at 2:57 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 2:57 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Ernest Borgnine has an anti-aging tip.
posted by eye of newt at 3:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by eye of newt at 3:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Generally if masturbation is negatively interfering with someone’s life, it’s that they’re doing it at inappropriate times or places, where it’s more committing sexual harassment than masturbation. Most people have some private downtime on a daily basis, though. (Outside of some institutional settings, anyway.)
Now, those runners who go out near-daily and have trained themselves to get that euphoric runner’s high habitually, clearly that is a serious social issue. Even worse, did you know that there are people who eat meals that replenish their blood sugar and make them feel better three times a day?! /s
posted by eviemath at 3:07 PM on November 12, 2023 [55 favorites]
Now, those runners who go out near-daily and have trained themselves to get that euphoric runner’s high habitually, clearly that is a serious social issue. Even worse, did you know that there are people who eat meals that replenish their blood sugar and make them feel better three times a day?! /s
posted by eviemath at 3:07 PM on November 12, 2023 [55 favorites]
I mentioned "habitually", LiquidWolf, because it's a weasel word here because it's one with many actual meanings but one massive dong of a connotation.
Anyways, I do appreciate the conversation. Though I'll step back before monopolize it.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:11 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyways, I do appreciate the conversation. Though I'll step back before monopolize it.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 3:11 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
frequent (20 times a month or more)
I read that initially as “200 times a month” and wondered how they would define “extreme….”
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I read that initially as “200 times a month” and wondered how they would define “extreme….”
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Limiting ejaculation has long been a technique in Chinese Medicine and Internal Alchemy practices. Many serious meditative paths also advise severely limiting it, not only due to losing Qi but for avoiding the endless and distracting animal craving of sex on the mind.
And regardless of whatever weird right wing politics some of these people might be into, I don't see anything wrong with discouraging addiction to pornography and masturbation.
The article isn't about mindfully practicing a healthy relationship to sexuality or even semen retention as a spiritual practice. It's about how fanatical moral panics tend to go hand-in-hand with fascist thinking. There's a difference between "hey, I've been devoting much more time and energy to this than I think is healthy, maybe it's time to step back" and "OH NO IF I JACK OFF MY SEMEN MIGHT GESTATE INTO A GAY COMMUNIST UNDER MY BED AND ALSO WOMEN ARE BAD". I'm being hyperbolic about the latter but I feel like it's close to the spirit of what the article is talking about
posted by treepour at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [27 favorites]
And regardless of whatever weird right wing politics some of these people might be into, I don't see anything wrong with discouraging addiction to pornography and masturbation.
The article isn't about mindfully practicing a healthy relationship to sexuality or even semen retention as a spiritual practice. It's about how fanatical moral panics tend to go hand-in-hand with fascist thinking. There's a difference between "hey, I've been devoting much more time and energy to this than I think is healthy, maybe it's time to step back" and "OH NO IF I JACK OFF MY SEMEN MIGHT GESTATE INTO A GAY COMMUNIST UNDER MY BED AND ALSO WOMEN ARE BAD". I'm being hyperbolic about the latter but I feel like it's close to the spirit of what the article is talking about
posted by treepour at 3:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [27 favorites]
Nazis are just so f*cking weird
George concurs.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
George concurs.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
If it's good enough for Borgnine, it's good enough for me damn it
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:40 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
> It's pretty subjective, but I'd say anyone who habitually does it every day has trained their body to expect that euphoric rush of the orgasm daily- whether that's a good thing or not is debatable.
is it though? debatable, i mean? cause it seems not. i guess there are people who are like "no, no, people should not have regularly scheduled euphoric rushes daily, if they do they might get used to it!" but i can't really see that stand as something to debate against, exactly.
anyway afk gonna go make like diogenes in the marketplace.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:46 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
is it though? debatable, i mean? cause it seems not. i guess there are people who are like "no, no, people should not have regularly scheduled euphoric rushes daily, if they do they might get used to it!" but i can't really see that stand as something to debate against, exactly.
anyway afk gonna go make like diogenes in the marketplace.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:46 PM on November 12, 2023 [14 favorites]
It is a bit puritanical. We do have this culture that in general is all "go, sit, be mindful, bring down your pulse, focus on your breathing, do this every day, it is really good for you". And you really really don't hear that much about an opposite extreme unless it's a more sustained energetic release like jogging but not an autonomous extreme like orgasm.
posted by hippybear at 3:53 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:53 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'd say anyone who habitually does it every day has trained their body to expect that euphoric rush of the orgasm daily- whether that's a good thing or not is debatable.
Well, whether it's a good thing depends on what the 'thing' is. Society seems to think it's fine to get a euphoric rush from running every day, going to the gym, or gambling on the stock market every day. Masturbating every day perhaps not so much. Maybe if more people masturbated every day, the world would be less stressed?
posted by dg at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
Well, whether it's a good thing depends on what the 'thing' is. Society seems to think it's fine to get a euphoric rush from running every day, going to the gym, or gambling on the stock market every day. Masturbating every day perhaps not so much. Maybe if more people masturbated every day, the world would be less stressed?
posted by dg at 4:28 PM on November 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
We could try issuing the global population just one eight ball of coke to be done simultaneously. The Great Global Coke-Off.
I mean, I've been advocating this for LSD for decades but maybe this is somehow more feasible.
posted by hippybear at 4:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, I've been advocating this for LSD for decades but maybe this is somehow more feasible.
posted by hippybear at 4:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
is it though? debatable, i mean? cause it seems not. i guess there are people who are like "no, no, people should not have regularly scheduled euphoric rushes daily, if they do they might get used to it!" but i can't really see that stand as something to debate against, exactly.
I knew I'd get major pushback from my " jerking off frequently isn't good for you" stance, but I"m coming at it ( no pun intended ) from a spiritual practitioner's point of view, and yes I know that's my personal thing so I don't expect everyone to agree. It probably rubs ( no pun intended ) people the wrong way and sounds puritanical but I just wanted to put it out there that there are reasons why some wouldn't find it healthy to expel semen too frequently. Totally fine if not everyone agrees with that.
posted by Liquidwolf at 4:47 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I do think there's a confusion in what you're expressing, Liquidwolf, because you speak about it being from a spiritual practitioner's point of view, but then say things about not finding it healthy. And I think this language cross with "healthy" maybe having both scientific and spiritual meanings is a friction point.
posted by hippybear at 4:53 PM on November 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 4:53 PM on November 12, 2023 [20 favorites]
I knew I'd get major pushback from my " jerking off frequently isn't good for you" stance...
I mean, there's also the fact that you're coming into a conversation about literal nazi's and suggesting that if we forget about the Nazism, they may have a point. And you know, non-nazis forgetting about the Nazism is a bad idea, cause the Nazis sure as hell aren't.
posted by Gygesringtone at 4:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
I mean, there's also the fact that you're coming into a conversation about literal nazi's and suggesting that if we forget about the Nazism, they may have a point. And you know, non-nazis forgetting about the Nazism is a bad idea, cause the Nazis sure as hell aren't.
posted by Gygesringtone at 4:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
Yeah, stop dunking on my 'bating. It's fine. It's not compulsive or detrimental to my life even though it may be daily.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 4:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
"masturbation: is there anything it cannot do?"
"If only hunger was as easy to satisfy." - Diogenes.
posted by ovvl at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
"If only hunger was as easy to satisfy." - Diogenes.
posted by ovvl at 5:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
I mean, there's also the fact that you're coming into a conversation about literal nazi's and suggesting that if we forget about the Nazism, they may have a point. And you know, non-nazis forgetting about the Nazism is a bad idea, cause the Nazis sure as hell aren't.
Nope. It's about masturbation. But you can focus on the Nazis if that's what floats your boat.
And I think this language cross with "healthy" maybe having both scientific and spiritual meanings is a friction point.
Yes probably so. For the record when I say "healthy" I mean from a strictly physical Eastern Medicine point of view, not a moralistic Christian one.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nope. It's about masturbation. But you can focus on the Nazis if that's what floats your boat.
And I think this language cross with "healthy" maybe having both scientific and spiritual meanings is a friction point.
Yes probably so. For the record when I say "healthy" I mean from a strictly physical Eastern Medicine point of view, not a moralistic Christian one.
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I found the full title of that 18th-century book for everyone's benefit:
ONANIA; OR, THE Heinous Sin OF Self-Pollution, AND All its Frightful Consequences, in both SEXES, Considered.
WITH Spiritual and Physical Advice to those, who have already injur'd themselves by this Abominable Practice.
And Seasonable Admonition to the Youth (of both SEXES) and those whose Tuition they are under, whether Parents, Guardians, Masters, or Mistresses.
To which is added, A Letter from a Lady (very curious) Concerning the Use and Abuse of the Marriage-Bed. With the Author's answer thereto.
posted by doctornemo at 5:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
ONANIA; OR, THE Heinous Sin OF Self-Pollution, AND All its Frightful Consequences, in both SEXES, Considered.
WITH Spiritual and Physical Advice to those, who have already injur'd themselves by this Abominable Practice.
And Seasonable Admonition to the Youth (of both SEXES) and those whose Tuition they are under, whether Parents, Guardians, Masters, or Mistresses.
To which is added, A Letter from a Lady (very curious) Concerning the Use and Abuse of the Marriage-Bed. With the Author's answer thereto.
posted by doctornemo at 5:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Not being a practitioner of any particular spirituality, I masturbate as frequently as I please, provided I have somewhere private and comfortable. It makes my life better by nearly any metric you care to use, but now I know it upsets Nazis? Hot damn.
Oh and porn? It is entirely possible to write porn that is fun, dirty, and also be fair and respectful. I would encourage you to check out Slipshine and Oh Joy Sex Toy for more about that.
posted by emjaybee at 5:14 PM on November 12, 2023 [23 favorites]
Oh and porn? It is entirely possible to write porn that is fun, dirty, and also be fair and respectful. I would encourage you to check out Slipshine and Oh Joy Sex Toy for more about that.
posted by emjaybee at 5:14 PM on November 12, 2023 [23 favorites]
Nope. It's about masturbation. But you can focus on the Nazis if that's what floats your boat.
I don't know what post you're reading but the FPP is explicitly about the co-opting and leveraging of many a young man's ambivalence or guilt about masturbation as a wedge into a Nazist worldview. So yeah it's actually about Nazis, dude.
posted by tclark at 5:29 PM on November 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
I don't know what post you're reading but the FPP is explicitly about the co-opting and leveraging of many a young man's ambivalence or guilt about masturbation as a wedge into a Nazist worldview. So yeah it's actually about Nazis, dude.
posted by tclark at 5:29 PM on November 12, 2023 [43 favorites]
I've read that the danger of the nofap philosophy is that it is predicated on the fear of "falling off the wagon" by jerking off, namely jerking off to porn. That is considered a fall from grace, a travesty, a tragedy. Some of these guys go months and months without self-pleasure and feel a sense of accomplishment from it, but then succumb to their desires and just crash. They feel a real hit to their self-esteem afterwards. It's those extremes that is what's troubling. Most people may feel a little bit guilty for masturbating to porn, but a little guilty seems appropriate and manageable. I certainly wouldn't want to build my sense of self-worth on the idea that I would never feel that urge and act on it.
posted by zardoz at 5:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 5:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
All of the dudes I know who I would consider to be unhealthily attached to sex (as in, pursuing it endlessly and vigorously, to their own or more often their partner's detriment, especially considering consent) have been "no jerk off" kind of guys.
posted by maxwelton at 5:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 5:31 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
when I say "healthy" I mean from a strictly physical Eastern Medicine point of view, not a moralistic Christian one.Ahaha get your hand off it mate
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 5:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [13 favorites]
All of the dudes I know who I would consider to be unhealthily attached to sex (as in, pursuing it endlessly and vigorously, to their own or more often their partner's detriment, especially considering consent) have been "no jerk off" kind of guys.It’s starkly reminiscent of the American culture around drinking, where both really do seem to come down to the religious or philosophical practice of saying a particular natural part of human life is wrong or dangerous and must be tightly restricted rather than teaching kids how to have a healthy balance. Some people figure that out themselves but some get stuck in that cycle of binging & guilt because it’s not unfolding the way they were told and they’re stuck in a binary framework which doesn’t work for them. We seem culturally prone to that attitude in so many areas that I’m not sure we’ll ever get rid of it - the simplicity is addictive.
Also, it takes a particular kind of bad reader to think the story of Onan has anything to do with masturbation. Oman’s sun is defying God, who explicitly told him to get his brother’s widow pregnant. Defying God, in the Old Testament, is a sure-fire route to getting smote.Thanks for mentioning that – even the fundamentalist strain I was raised with was clear on that so reading that mistake immediately made me wonder whether scholars familiar with the other cultures mentioned would agree with the author’s characterization.
posted by adamsc at 6:11 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I knew I'd get major pushback from my " jerking off frequently isn't good for you" stance, but I"m coming at it ( no pun intended ) from a spiritual practitioner's point of view
Rather than sublimating sexual energy and shunting it into religion, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the religion to sexuality? Like you have this way that people can see God every day, why not make that a part of your spiritual practice?
posted by Balna Watya at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Rather than sublimating sexual energy and shunting it into religion, wouldn't it make more sense to bring the religion to sexuality? Like you have this way that people can see God every day, why not make that a part of your spiritual practice?
posted by Balna Watya at 6:22 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
*Goes off to reread Stranger in a Strange Land*
posted by Melismata at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
What if you don't beat off, you just join a club where you beat each other off
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:37 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:37 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
strictly physical Eastern Medicine point of view, not a moralistic Christian one.
Looking at how these things are implemented, in practice, in the "East" (hello, I am from there!) has shown me (thus far, anyway, I could be wrong!!) that these two are not actually as far apart as some might like. Witness Modi and yoga, the CCP and any number of "fighting arts" to say nothing of CTM, and so on.
...it's not "strictly physical". It never has been. Ever. No matter how far back you go in the texts.
posted by aramaic at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Looking at how these things are implemented, in practice, in the "East" (hello, I am from there!) has shown me (thus far, anyway, I could be wrong!!) that these two are not actually as far apart as some might like. Witness Modi and yoga, the CCP and any number of "fighting arts" to say nothing of CTM, and so on.
...it's not "strictly physical". It never has been. Ever. No matter how far back you go in the texts.
posted by aramaic at 6:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
An adult masturbating in private to ethically-produced porn harms absolutely no one.
Masturbation isn't harmful, unlike cigarette smoking or excessive alcohol consumption.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Masturbation isn't harmful, unlike cigarette smoking or excessive alcohol consumption.
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 6:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
Looking at how these things are implemented, in practice, in the "East" (hello, I am from there!) has shown me (thus far, anyway, I could be wrong!!) that these two are not actually as far apart as some might like. Witness Modi and yoga, the CCP and any number of "fighting arts" to say nothing of CTM, and so on.
...it's not "strictly physical". It never has been. Ever. No matter how far back you go in the texts.
Yeah, I know there's more to it. I only said "strictly physical" because I knew people here would berate me if I used any type of "spiritual" language.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
...it's not "strictly physical". It never has been. Ever. No matter how far back you go in the texts.
Yeah, I know there's more to it. I only said "strictly physical" because I knew people here would berate me if I used any type of "spiritual" language.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:47 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd say anyone who habitually does it every day has trained their body to expect that euphoric rush of the orgasm daily
Their body? I don't think your physical body would be able to biochemically tell the difference between the rush of an orgasm or the rush of a really good workout. You might have more of a convincing argument if you'd claimed the mind would be expecting an orgasm daily - but others have studied that very question already and disproven that theory.
You may personally think it's overkill to jack off daily. And that's fine for you. Sex is one of the main things about which people's mileage may vary - and sometimes even within a person's own lifetime it may vary (no one told me that menopause can diminish libido, and in my case it was like turning off a lightswitch on the whole of Times Square).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
Their body? I don't think your physical body would be able to biochemically tell the difference between the rush of an orgasm or the rush of a really good workout. You might have more of a convincing argument if you'd claimed the mind would be expecting an orgasm daily - but others have studied that very question already and disproven that theory.
You may personally think it's overkill to jack off daily. And that's fine for you. Sex is one of the main things about which people's mileage may vary - and sometimes even within a person's own lifetime it may vary (no one told me that menopause can diminish libido, and in my case it was like turning off a lightswitch on the whole of Times Square).
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
I just wish that people who discovered they felt better thinking less about sex didn't insist the rest of us had to do the same. I wonder if our current category of "asexual" can't act as a more healthy label for people who find it a problem or distasteful. It's ok to not want to do it! Whatever your reason! It's not ok to think that makes you stronger or more special.
posted by emjaybee at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 7:03 PM on November 12, 2023 [25 favorites]
Their body? I don't think your physical body would be able to biochemically tell the difference between the rush of an orgasm or the rush of a really good workout.
If that were true everyone would be training like an Olympic athlete. Whatever you want to call it, that pleasure rush is what becomes a craving.
You may personally think it's overkill to jack off daily. And that's fine for you.
Yeah, of course. I already said this was MY point of view, but it's not based on nothing. Age has a lot to do with it. As men get older it's not recommended to ejaculate as often according to Traditional Chinese Medicine and Daoist health training.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:13 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
If that were true everyone would be training like an Olympic athlete. Whatever you want to call it, that pleasure rush is what becomes a craving.
You may personally think it's overkill to jack off daily. And that's fine for you.
Yeah, of course. I already said this was MY point of view, but it's not based on nothing. Age has a lot to do with it. As men get older it's not recommended to ejaculate as often according to Traditional Chinese Medicine and Daoist health training.
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:13 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Liquidwolf: I just want you to know I totally respect your spiritual path. I think there are things to be learned through constraint, and certainly the flow of energies in eastern medicine is not something I'm overly familiar with. It is, admittedly, quite different from the stuff going on in this article, and given the rather negative overtones from this, it's probably best not to entangle what is good and bright and right for you with this other messy bullshit.
posted by hippybear at 7:17 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:17 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
What if you don't beat off, you just join a club where you beat each other off
Believe me, I tried! For some reason, though, no one responded to my craigslist post in good faith.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Believe me, I tried! For some reason, though, no one responded to my craigslist post in good faith.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:45 PM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
What if you don't beat off, you just join a club where you beat each other off
At some point pre-covid (oh, how the pandemic made time blur...) there was some dude who got attention for organizing Totally Not Gay Jerk Off Together events. No judgment from me, people should do as they like, but it was the no-homo branding that was funny.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:55 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
At some point pre-covid (oh, how the pandemic made time blur...) there was some dude who got attention for organizing Totally Not Gay Jerk Off Together events. No judgment from me, people should do as they like, but it was the no-homo branding that was funny.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:55 PM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I only said "strictly physical" because I knew people here would berate me if I used any type of "spiritual" language.
Who? If people are berating you for any reason, that would be something to take up with the mods, I think.
As for TFA, it's quite good, and gets to the real problem, which isn't really about spiritual practices or even being particularly wary of compulsive dopamine rush seeking (something that I've been quite concerned about WRT my own recovery from alcohol addiction and avoiding replacing booze with something else).
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Who? If people are berating you for any reason, that would be something to take up with the mods, I think.
As for TFA, it's quite good, and gets to the real problem, which isn't really about spiritual practices or even being particularly wary of compulsive dopamine rush seeking (something that I've been quite concerned about WRT my own recovery from alcohol addiction and avoiding replacing booze with something else).
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:59 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Let's not have a pile on on the person in this thread who limits sexual expression for spiritual growth (not for Nazism).
Instead, let's have a consensual pile-on of people who want MORE masturbation in their lives!
posted by latkes at 8:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Instead, let's have a consensual pile-on of people who want MORE masturbation in their lives!
posted by latkes at 8:19 PM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
The arguments I hear against masturbation always seem to have an echo of homophobia in them. It's sinful, it's bad for you spiritually, it isn't "good for you", it isn't "good for society". It's so similar to what I grew up hearing, especially from religions, about being gay. I can't help but think that it all stems from a deep-seated horror of men touching man-parts.
posted by MrVisible at 9:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 9:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [17 favorites]
WOW IT SMELLS AMAZING IN HERE
posted by not_on_display at 10:21 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by not_on_display at 10:21 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
(typing this from the tail end of a Jewish wedding that just reached the final drunk song stage) The sin of Onan is that you are suppose to marry your brother's widow because she cannot inherit on her own and in this way she can conceive a son, the dead man has a notional heir, she is supported, and the land stays in the family. Onan let everyone down by failing to do this and that is his sin. Judaism isn't keen on masturbation but this is not the straightforward reading of the passage.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:52 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 10:52 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I do not find it ironic that this post went up within one minute of my afternoon mefi perusal.
talk about getting off.
posted by clavdivs at 11:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
talk about getting off.
posted by clavdivs at 11:39 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Metafilter: men of vigorous bloom who threw away their glasses, shaved twice a day, dragged loads up to 220 pounds, and even indulged in such youthful follies as buying land in Florida
posted by dephlogisticated at 11:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 11:42 PM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
That Onania book is 336 pages long.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:04 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 12:04 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
whether that's a good thing or not is debatable.
What should be beyond debate is that it's nobody else's fucking business.
Mike Johnson disagrees, advocating penile surveillance in what has to count as one of the better nominative determinism easter eggs the writers have slipped in this year.
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on November 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
What should be beyond debate is that it's nobody else's fucking business.
Mike Johnson disagrees, advocating penile surveillance in what has to count as one of the better nominative determinism easter eggs the writers have slipped in this year.
posted by flabdablet at 12:16 AM on November 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
The Nine Words: cornflakes, cornflakes, cornflakes
posted by flabdablet at 12:34 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:34 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Viagra can can raise the risk of serious retinal problems:
posted by jamjam at 12:41 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Could Viagra, Cialis Raise Men's Odds for Eye Trouble?If the mechanism is that the extra nitric oxide the drug makes available increases blood flow to the retina and masturbation also makes such extra nitric oxide available to the retina, though probably at much lower levels than the drug does, then there could be a glimmer of truth, however faint and fugitive, to the old saw that masturbation can make you go blind.
THURSDAY, April 7, 2022 (HealthDay News) -- Men, you may be thinking mostly about your performance in the bedroom when you take drugs like Viagra and Cialis, but you might want to be on the lookout for vision problems that can crop up once you start taking them.
In a new study, taking erectile dysfunction medications regularly translated into a higher risk for three vision-damaging conditions. However, even though the increased risk was 85%, the absolute risk was still low.
While a relatively small percentage of men will develop these conditions because so many men take these medications — 20 million prescriptions are dispensed each month in the United States — that means there are many cases, the researchers noted.
The conditions are serious retinal detachment (SRD), retinal vascular occlusion (RVO) and ischemic optic neuropathy (ION).
posted by jamjam at 12:41 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think there is some value in taking a break from masturbation as a Stoic exercise. You can demonstrate and build self-control, you can notice and reflect on how your body reacts, and you can take greater pleasure when the challenge is over.
There is no moral issue with masturbation, and it's weird to be worried about what other people are doing or not doing sexually, so long as they're not hurting anyone and you aren't having sex with them.
It is like a fast, or giving something up for Lent. And in that sense you can feel a certain amount of pride in doing a difficult thing, for beating a challenge.
Delayed gratification is a skill and a sign of maturity. And I think a lot of the NNN people approach it with that as the goal, and they're just looking for other people to participate in the challenge with them.
There's definitely a lot of dry cereal eating anti-masturbation freaks out there too, of course. And I do think there is a trend towards Puritanism in the general culture which I find disturbing. But my point is that people participate in this challenge for many reasons, not just the neo-Nazi/Puritan ones.
posted by JDHarper at 12:58 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is no moral issue with masturbation, and it's weird to be worried about what other people are doing or not doing sexually, so long as they're not hurting anyone and you aren't having sex with them.
It is like a fast, or giving something up for Lent. And in that sense you can feel a certain amount of pride in doing a difficult thing, for beating a challenge.
Delayed gratification is a skill and a sign of maturity. And I think a lot of the NNN people approach it with that as the goal, and they're just looking for other people to participate in the challenge with them.
There's definitely a lot of dry cereal eating anti-masturbation freaks out there too, of course. And I do think there is a trend towards Puritanism in the general culture which I find disturbing. But my point is that people participate in this challenge for many reasons, not just the neo-Nazi/Puritan ones.
posted by JDHarper at 12:58 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I read this article while eating Weetabix. Glad it wasn't cornflakes.
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:58 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Cardinal Fang at 12:58 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s good and healthy to cycle the fluids in your prostate on a regular basis. Long term study show a reduction in occurrence of prostate cancer for frequent (20 times a month or more) ejaculators. Spend for health!
Before modern Islamic norms that are considered 'authentic' seemed to resemble what we typically associate with conservative behaviour (reasons are many so let's just assume we're all up to speed about them), theological practice diversity also included a fairly well-accepted view for masturbation (male; female is less-discussed or considered) for pretty much this reason in medieval-era Muslim communities - they didn't know about the cancer risk but I remembered reading the opinion that it's a beneficial act for keeping the fluids regular. TBH the story of Onan isn't in the Quran, so if we pick up anything about "onanism" it's mainly thru the biblical side of things.
posted by cendawanita at 2:16 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Before modern Islamic norms that are considered 'authentic' seemed to resemble what we typically associate with conservative behaviour (reasons are many so let's just assume we're all up to speed about them), theological practice diversity also included a fairly well-accepted view for masturbation (male; female is less-discussed or considered) for pretty much this reason in medieval-era Muslim communities - they didn't know about the cancer risk but I remembered reading the opinion that it's a beneficial act for keeping the fluids regular. TBH the story of Onan isn't in the Quran, so if we pick up anything about "onanism" it's mainly thru the biblical side of things.
posted by cendawanita at 2:16 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
No nut November, huh? I’m out!
posted by TedW at 3:20 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TedW at 3:20 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't have much to add, but it's sure interesting that this conversation here is proceeding as if masturbation were something done exclusively by men.
posted by june_dodecahedron at 3:49 AM on November 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by june_dodecahedron at 3:49 AM on November 13, 2023 [14 favorites]
What if denying myself the pleasure of masturbation for spiritual or meditative purposes is my fetish?
Seriously, do you have any idea how distracting it is to be around so many people not masturbating?
posted by loquacious at 4:02 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seriously, do you have any idea how distracting it is to be around so many people not masturbating?
posted by loquacious at 4:02 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
For those are do masturbate, whether daily or once a decade, definitely try using lube. Hell, try using lube when having sex with another consent adult.
Make sure it's lube designed to be used for sex! Skip the hand lotion/vaseline/spit/motor oil/peanut butter, you want something that doesn't break down easily and doesn't irritate your skin or interior places.
Still not sure? Lube can be ordered online and Googling "Choosing a Lube" will answer all the questions you have.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Make sure it's lube designed to be used for sex! Skip the hand lotion/vaseline/spit/motor oil/peanut butter, you want something that doesn't break down easily and doesn't irritate your skin or interior places.
Still not sure? Lube can be ordered online and Googling "Choosing a Lube" will answer all the questions you have.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Coconut oil is very nice and skin friendly. Just make sure not to use it with incompatible condoms and/or toys.
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:52 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:52 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
ethically-produced porn
Where...does one find THAT?!? Maybe this is an Ask Me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Where...does one find THAT?!? Maybe this is an Ask Me.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do find it interesting that while I know about historical references to women masturbating or not, I've never heard about a modern movement about it.
(Also that my phone's spell check wants to change "masturbating" to "mistreating." Yikes.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:15 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Also that my phone's spell check wants to change "masturbating" to "mistreating." Yikes.)
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:15 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whatever you want to call it, that pleasure rush is what becomes a craving.
See, this is the universalizing one’s own experience part that folks are objecting to. One can easily avoid coming across as moralizing or universalizing from a small sample size by adding a “for me” at the end.
Anyway, the article in the FPP was concerned about the intersection between groups that limit male masturbation and those promoting far right or neo-Nazi ideologies. We’ve had posts before about the wellness to far right pipeline, but it’s clear that with the no-fap groups already being part of the manosphere and concerned with patriarchal notions of masculinity, that’s a much shorter pipeline or larger Venn diagram intersection here. I appreciated that the article was fairly clear that it was talking about cis male masturbation specifically, as a clear subset and not as the only type of masturbation. That focus was understandable given the article’s main subject (which was not masturbation itself qua masturbation). We can look to how the article accomplished this to make our discussion similarly focused yet non-exclusionary.
posted by eviemath at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
See, this is the universalizing one’s own experience part that folks are objecting to. One can easily avoid coming across as moralizing or universalizing from a small sample size by adding a “for me” at the end.
Anyway, the article in the FPP was concerned about the intersection between groups that limit male masturbation and those promoting far right or neo-Nazi ideologies. We’ve had posts before about the wellness to far right pipeline, but it’s clear that with the no-fap groups already being part of the manosphere and concerned with patriarchal notions of masculinity, that’s a much shorter pipeline or larger Venn diagram intersection here. I appreciated that the article was fairly clear that it was talking about cis male masturbation specifically, as a clear subset and not as the only type of masturbation. That focus was understandable given the article’s main subject (which was not masturbation itself qua masturbation). We can look to how the article accomplished this to make our discussion similarly focused yet non-exclusionary.
posted by eviemath at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2023 [13 favorites]
ethically-produced porn
Where...does one find THAT?!? Maybe this is an Ask Me
tiny frying pan, the webcomic Oh Joy Sex Toy has lots of suggestions for where to buy/stream ethically produced porn.
There's also a feminist porn director who tells her actors "okay, you have some kind of sex in this scene, but it is completely up to the two of you to negotiate and mutually agree on what type of sex you want to have in this scene - it could be mutual masturbation, it could be oral sex, it could be penis-in-vagina sex..."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:50 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Where...does one find THAT?!? Maybe this is an Ask Me
tiny frying pan, the webcomic Oh Joy Sex Toy has lots of suggestions for where to buy/stream ethically produced porn.
There's also a feminist porn director who tells her actors "okay, you have some kind of sex in this scene, but it is completely up to the two of you to negotiate and mutually agree on what type of sex you want to have in this scene - it could be mutual masturbation, it could be oral sex, it could be penis-in-vagina sex..."
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 5:50 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would go farther than the article and say that no-fap groups, while they may not necessarily be inherently far right, are inherently sexist. The whole premise behind them seems to be that overly-universalized idea that all (implied cis) men have these difficult to control sexual urges - that if they do masturbate, it will necessarily end up being a sole focus, and not one among a healthy variety of activities and connections or pleasures in their lives. This entirely erases the existence of asexual men, or even just men with lower libidos. My impression is that most of these groups would, rather than idolize such men, think of them as less manly. Their ideology or claim seems to be that shifting this assumed sexual drive to other pursuits is what makes men successful and gives men the other social markers of (patriarchal) manliness that the groups venerate. From other bits that I’ve read about no-fap groups, it seems to me that they would likely think that an asexual or lower-libido man would just have no or less drive overall - no essential manly energies to redirect toward the other valued pursuits. If the ideological framework outlined in the FPP article is accurate, that would tend to support my impressions or hypothesis.
posted by eviemath at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:02 AM on November 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
No nut November, huh? I’m out!
I'm working through the inverse of No-nut November but I had to miss a couple times due to scheduling problems. Maybe next year I'll bowl a perfect game.
I don't have much to add, but it's sure interesting that this conversation here is proceeding as if masturbation were something done exclusively by men.
Ssssh, or Nazis will try and tell women that masturbation wastes their precious bodily fluids too. I mean, more than society already discourages women from indulging in pleasure.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm working through the inverse of No-nut November but I had to miss a couple times due to scheduling problems. Maybe next year I'll bowl a perfect game.
I don't have much to add, but it's sure interesting that this conversation here is proceeding as if masturbation were something done exclusively by men.
Ssssh, or Nazis will try and tell women that masturbation wastes their precious bodily fluids too. I mean, more than society already discourages women from indulging in pleasure.
posted by AzraelBrown at 6:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don’t think Nazis are aware that women have sex-related bodily fluids. That would require some actual knowledge about female anatomy, and would likely be connected to believing in the existence of female orgasms (rather than assuming all women are faking it to somehow control men or something).
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:14 AM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
tiny frying pan: I do find it interesting that while I know about historical references to women masturbating or not, I've never heard about a modern movement about it.
Betty Dodson's work is close. Of course, that's more profap than nofap.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:52 AM on November 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Betty Dodson's work is close. Of course, that's more profap than nofap.
posted by Too-Ticky at 6:52 AM on November 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t think Nazis are aware that women have sex-related bodily fluids.
....Didn't Ben Shapiro post a tweet in response to the song "W.A.P." that stated that "it sounds like if your pussy is gushing that you have a medical problem"?
(innocent look)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
....Didn't Ben Shapiro post a tweet in response to the song "W.A.P." that stated that "it sounds like if your pussy is gushing that you have a medical problem"?
(innocent look)
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:53 AM on November 13, 2023 [7 favorites]
"advocating penile surveillance
Ha! Jokes on them! They will never be able to see it from over there!
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:08 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ha! Jokes on them! They will never be able to see it from over there!
posted by MonsieurPEB at 7:08 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And Liquidwolf, sorry for joining in the pile-on with my, ah, edgy comment.
You walked into a minefield here, but please don't button over it.
But the problems with your comment are multiple and kind of orthogonal to the whole discussion about "No Nut November" in particular and its roots in Western purity culture, misogyny, patriarchy and leading to straight up fascism.
june_dodecahedron is right on point with this: I don't have much to add, but it's sure interesting that this conversation here is proceeding as if masturbation were something done exclusively by men.
I don't really know Daoism but it sure sounds like it's falling into the same kind of patriarchal nonsense about bodily fluids.
And in any case "Eastern" spirituality, practices or medicine doesn't get a free pass from criticism of being patriarchal, utterly scientifically wrong, outdated or outright personally or culturally harmful.
I remember my church "leaders" and so called "teachers" being totally obsessed with admonishing and shaming young people - young men in particular, because young women definitely do not masturbate never ever, lol - and being hammered at with purity culture and having to deal with so much shame and dogma about it, and how this is actually a huge problem and hindrance to a being well developed, well rounded, well adjusted and mentally and physically healthy human being.
And I have serious doubts that the proverbial (and often overtly mysticized or Orientalised) "East" could do the same without resorting to similar shame and dogma to accomplish it - or even if they could, if they should at all.
Anyway, all of this "no masturbation" purity culture and practice has always all been super weird to me because if people in particular (speaking of men, but I'm sure there's some version for women, too) don't masturbate at least semi-regularly it's going to come out all on it's own in dreams and/or nocturnal emissions.
Masturbation is as natural as going to the bathroom. Striving to not masturbate for whatever reason is probably about as unscientific and potentially harmful as striving to not urinate.
It's so weird that hearing about people striving to not masturbate at all is like hearing about people striving to not urinate and empty their bladder all day and then wetting their beds and... thinking this is all cool and natural and the right way to go.
Are sex addictions and dysfunctions real? Porn addictions? Yes, sure, people can have a problem that interferes with the quality of their life, but that's not really what we're talking about.
posted by loquacious at 7:09 AM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
You walked into a minefield here, but please don't button over it.
But the problems with your comment are multiple and kind of orthogonal to the whole discussion about "No Nut November" in particular and its roots in Western purity culture, misogyny, patriarchy and leading to straight up fascism.
june_dodecahedron is right on point with this: I don't have much to add, but it's sure interesting that this conversation here is proceeding as if masturbation were something done exclusively by men.
I don't really know Daoism but it sure sounds like it's falling into the same kind of patriarchal nonsense about bodily fluids.
And in any case "Eastern" spirituality, practices or medicine doesn't get a free pass from criticism of being patriarchal, utterly scientifically wrong, outdated or outright personally or culturally harmful.
I remember my church "leaders" and so called "teachers" being totally obsessed with admonishing and shaming young people - young men in particular, because young women definitely do not masturbate never ever, lol - and being hammered at with purity culture and having to deal with so much shame and dogma about it, and how this is actually a huge problem and hindrance to a being well developed, well rounded, well adjusted and mentally and physically healthy human being.
And I have serious doubts that the proverbial (and often overtly mysticized or Orientalised) "East" could do the same without resorting to similar shame and dogma to accomplish it - or even if they could, if they should at all.
Anyway, all of this "no masturbation" purity culture and practice has always all been super weird to me because if people in particular (speaking of men, but I'm sure there's some version for women, too) don't masturbate at least semi-regularly it's going to come out all on it's own in dreams and/or nocturnal emissions.
Masturbation is as natural as going to the bathroom. Striving to not masturbate for whatever reason is probably about as unscientific and potentially harmful as striving to not urinate.
It's so weird that hearing about people striving to not masturbate at all is like hearing about people striving to not urinate and empty their bladder all day and then wetting their beds and... thinking this is all cool and natural and the right way to go.
Are sex addictions and dysfunctions real? Porn addictions? Yes, sure, people can have a problem that interferes with the quality of their life, but that's not really what we're talking about.
posted by loquacious at 7:09 AM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's ludicrous and racist to think that eastern mystical anti-masturbation practises are somehow more enlightened than western puritanism or christian moralism. Eastern peoples did not magically discover a non-misogynistic, non-homophobic, non-shaming, non-fascism-friendly reason to recommend that young men should masturbate less, lol.
This is because eastern people are not Na'avi / noble savages / [insert your favorite orientalist fantasy]. We are all the same type of boring human with the same silly human ideas.
posted by MiraK at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
This is because eastern people are not Na'avi / noble savages / [insert your favorite orientalist fantasy]. We are all the same type of boring human with the same silly human ideas.
posted by MiraK at 7:51 AM on November 13, 2023 [24 favorites]
Masturbation is as natural as going to the bathroom. Striving to not masturbate for whatever reason is probably about as unscientific and potentially harmful as striving to not urinate.
I appreciate what you’re trying to do here but, again, libido varies quite a lot among humans. It’s not great to over-generalize from one’s own experience no matter what that experience is.
posted by eviemath at 8:27 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I appreciate what you’re trying to do here but, again, libido varies quite a lot among humans. It’s not great to over-generalize from one’s own experience no matter what that experience is.
posted by eviemath at 8:27 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Glib answer to why we're only talking about male masturbation: because patriarchy has already helpfully warned us that women who experience sexual pleasure not centered around a male agent are witches.
Less glib answer: here's Eve Sedgwick's 1991 paper Jane Austen and the Masturbating Girl. (pdf download from link)
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Less glib answer: here's Eve Sedgwick's 1991 paper Jane Austen and the Masturbating Girl. (pdf download from link)
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 11:47 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The pinning of the nofap and what is being called neo-Naziism isn't unique to the group being called Nazi.
If one looks for a very old organized tradition Zoroastrianism one can find 2 differing opinions on the web. The Zoroastrian holy book Avesta, with its stress on physical cleanliness, lists voluntary masturbation among the unpardonable sins that one can commit. Verses 26-28 of Fargard VIII, Section V of the Vendidad state and from a satanist POV Inversely, several ancient religious traditions, such as Zoroastrianism, Ancient Egyptian religion, and the Dionysian Mysteries, as well as more modern Left Hand traditions, openly reject ascetic practices and either focus on various types of hedonism or on the importance of family life, both rejecting celibacy.
Not "Nazi" enough for ya? How about via a nation of islam search ? In general, Islam is not against semen retention. In fact, it is a proponent of semen retention especially if a person is single. A person who is single must not masturbate, have illegitimate sex, or expose themself to any form of Islamically prohibited sexual arousal and pleasure.
As mentioned upthread the Chinese Qi ideas, so yet another tradition long in the tooth that has fans of this retention idea.
Then there is Hindu/Indian ideas. From the Wiki article Brahmacharya (/ˌbrɑːməˈtʃɑːrjə/) is a concept within Indian religions that literally means "conduct consistent with Brahman" or "on the path of Brahman". In Yoga, Hinduism it generally refers to a lifestyle characterized by sexual continence or complete abstinence.
Tying "nofap" to Nazi is clickbait unless the word Nazi is being expanded to other traditions with a far longer and less Aryan history. It is almost like someone is studying imperial conspiracies and their conspiracy-theory afterlives in literature and media and decided to ignore anything that didn't match their studies. Or perhaps spends far too much of their daily free time thinking about Rome.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:24 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
If one looks for a very old organized tradition Zoroastrianism one can find 2 differing opinions on the web. The Zoroastrian holy book Avesta, with its stress on physical cleanliness, lists voluntary masturbation among the unpardonable sins that one can commit. Verses 26-28 of Fargard VIII, Section V of the Vendidad state and from a satanist POV Inversely, several ancient religious traditions, such as Zoroastrianism, Ancient Egyptian religion, and the Dionysian Mysteries, as well as more modern Left Hand traditions, openly reject ascetic practices and either focus on various types of hedonism or on the importance of family life, both rejecting celibacy.
Not "Nazi" enough for ya? How about via a nation of islam search ? In general, Islam is not against semen retention. In fact, it is a proponent of semen retention especially if a person is single. A person who is single must not masturbate, have illegitimate sex, or expose themself to any form of Islamically prohibited sexual arousal and pleasure.
As mentioned upthread the Chinese Qi ideas, so yet another tradition long in the tooth that has fans of this retention idea.
Then there is Hindu/Indian ideas. From the Wiki article Brahmacharya (/ˌbrɑːməˈtʃɑːrjə/) is a concept within Indian religions that literally means "conduct consistent with Brahman" or "on the path of Brahman". In Yoga, Hinduism it generally refers to a lifestyle characterized by sexual continence or complete abstinence.
Tying "nofap" to Nazi is clickbait unless the word Nazi is being expanded to other traditions with a far longer and less Aryan history. It is almost like someone is studying imperial conspiracies and their conspiracy-theory afterlives in literature and media and decided to ignore anything that didn't match their studies. Or perhaps spends far too much of their daily free time thinking about Rome.
posted by rough ashlar at 12:24 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Zoroastrian holy book Avesta, with its stress on physical cleanliness, lists voluntary masturbation among the unpardonable sins that one can commit.
They also list a punishment of a total of 1600 lashes for the sin of involuntary ejaculation, i.e. a wet dream. That's, y'know, not great.
And making the argument that "Tying "nofap" to Nazi is clickbait unless the word Nazi is being expanded to other traditions" is bogus, sorry. As has already been gone over at length in this thread, no one's arguing that all proponents of semen restriction/masturbation avoidance are Nazis. But there are clearly some neofascists who are getting inti it in a big way, as TFA argues.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
They also list a punishment of a total of 1600 lashes for the sin of involuntary ejaculation, i.e. a wet dream. That's, y'know, not great.
And making the argument that "Tying "nofap" to Nazi is clickbait unless the word Nazi is being expanded to other traditions" is bogus, sorry. As has already been gone over at length in this thread, no one's arguing that all proponents of semen restriction/masturbation avoidance are Nazis. But there are clearly some neofascists who are getting inti it in a big way, as TFA argues.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Less glib answer: here's Eve Sedgwick's 1991 paper Jane Austen and the Masturbating Girl.
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single woman in possession of a good clitoris, must be in want of a Hitachi Magic Wand. "
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single woman in possession of a good clitoris, must be in want of a Hitachi Magic Wand. "
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
...Well usually about 2:30 in the morning you've ended up taking advantage of yourselfTom Waits
There ain't no way around that, you know
Yeah, making a scene with a magazine, there ain't no way around
I'll confess you know, I'm no different, you know
I'm not weird about it or anything, I don't tie myself up first
I just spend a little time with myself...
posted by y2karl at 2:42 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Because it's so associated with fertility and reproduction, of course states and proto-state machineries (religions, superstitions, autarchs, etc) are driven to regulate and control the production of sperm. The fact that masturbation can also be so personally rewarding without needing any training, expertise, state- or partner-sanction, or access to hidden knowledge or practices, also creates an impetus for external actors to seek to control and regulate it. Fascism has a lot to say about the control of the self in the service of the state (or analog) hence the connection.
All the accumulated superstitions and wacky overvalued beliefs about "magic jizz" and personal power/sexy fascism/reproductive mystique/etc kind of pale when you've seen it routinely milked with electrostimulation. The identification of induced retrograde ejaculation with magical powers of the self or religious rituals seems fairly pointless when you see a chronic, progressive development of this in many neuro syndromes. It's just something that happens, and it's not that rare. Even the exclusive, historical masculine identification of only semen with orgasm is incorrect as, despite myths, men can expel urine as well as prostatic fluids during ejaculation, just as women can, and in not-entirely rare cases, orgasm and/or ejaculation can also comprise or be stimulated by defecation. For the last, for some men, it's a whole thing.
posted by meehawl at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
All the accumulated superstitions and wacky overvalued beliefs about "magic jizz" and personal power/sexy fascism/reproductive mystique/etc kind of pale when you've seen it routinely milked with electrostimulation. The identification of induced retrograde ejaculation with magical powers of the self or religious rituals seems fairly pointless when you see a chronic, progressive development of this in many neuro syndromes. It's just something that happens, and it's not that rare. Even the exclusive, historical masculine identification of only semen with orgasm is incorrect as, despite myths, men can expel urine as well as prostatic fluids during ejaculation, just as women can, and in not-entirely rare cases, orgasm and/or ejaculation can also comprise or be stimulated by defecation. For the last, for some men, it's a whole thing.
posted by meehawl at 2:53 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh rough ashlar, how eager you are to appropriate eastern philosophies as a shield for your own dubious goals ... I call this appropriation because you cite them exactly as an outsider putting on airs does: with total ahistoricity and lack of curiosity about the real impacts and consequences on real people of the practices you name. All you care about is borrowing the sheen of ~magical eastern nature beings~, not truly understanding or interrogating how those traditions work or why they are used. Spoiler: it's all bullshit. Imagine using brahminical Hinduism as an example of a tradition that *isn't* prone to nazi tendencies! Your ignorance is tragic and more than a little funny.
posted by MiraK at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 2:54 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The daughter of a friend of mine went to school with and befriended the same of Tom Waits and eventually met the man himself. So I asked my friend 'Well, does he actually...' -- 'Talk like that? Yeah!'
Man, the topic at hand is a hot one and things are really moving along. So to speak...
posted by y2karl at 2:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Man, the topic at hand is a hot one and things are really moving along. So to speak...
posted by y2karl at 2:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh rough ashlar, how eager you are to appropriate eastern philosophies as a shield for your own dubious goals ... I call this appropriation because you cite them exactly as an outsider putting on airs does: with total ahistoricity and lack of curiosity about the real impacts and consequences on real people of the practices you name.
Considering your take on citing semen traditions far older than NNN/NoFap as 'appropriation' do take the time to explain these dubious goals.
You've made the accusation - now I'm asking you to deliver on your claim of understanding.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:38 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Considering your take on citing semen traditions far older than NNN/NoFap as 'appropriation' do take the time to explain these dubious goals.
You've made the accusation - now I'm asking you to deliver on your claim of understanding.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:38 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Nazis did many things, I think I can safely say that their masturbation habits (or lack thereof) probably wasn't the worst of their sins.
posted by kingdead at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kingdead at 5:59 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
no one's arguing that all proponents of semen restriction/masturbation avoidance are Nazis. But there are clearly some neofascists who are getting inti it in a big way, as TFA argues.
And if someone was into actually analyzing others theories about conspiracies rather than point to religious views along with quotes from long dead people while clicking their tongue about religious people from the late 1800's getting laws written to bolster their POV a far more interesting take would be explaining how a theory about a conspiracy that is gonna have cultural legs should take something old with a history is fine fodder to take into the worldview you are selling. Even leaning into the whole legislative angle of Kellogs/the graham cracker dude as there is documentation they left behind as to their why's VS the older traditions or made up quotes from famous dead people which become an answer to 'how often does one think of rome'.
If one wants to read about neonazi and semen retention google's search shows articles going back years. With at least one of 'em complaining in 2018 about how the kvetching over the 'alt right' and retention was old and needed to end. An examination into why these people are leaning into tantric sex dogma would at least be new ground. (See Julius Evola for both the fascism AND the tantric along with being dead for 1/2 a century AND seems to have had face time with people who helped define WWII fascism for us today.)
Is it "I wasn't getting laid so rather than admit that claim its part of your tradition"? (I believe one can find self IDing 'incels' who'd made comments about that and i'm guessing one can find part of the 'modern dating sucks' crowd who'd fit here) Is it like how QAnon had a level of popularity - take a thing that is often repeated and old then tie that to the idea you are selling? Is it part of a $5000 a year 'better yourself club' and grabbing ideas that are old enough to avoid copyright also allows to make a claim how its not part of the new, bad thing? (extra points if you channel how nofap/NNN is gonna make you a manly man and then your omegle videos of you doing things blows up your man club). Is it some shit you said as a joke as at least one person makes the claim was Gavin's motivation like he's Rush Limbaugh reacting to a critique. Is it a simple way to show one has some kind of control in a small way - and if so why has that been important to centuries of people such that oral/written traditions exist on the topic? Is it a search term that if you make media about it you'll get more views for? (alas, the search engines failed for links to Jeremy Hambly making a series of videos on the positive value of nofap/NNN to then contrast with his search history he'd show on stream but that drunkard is a fine example of having no guiding light beyond 'will this 10 mins of reading other people's articles poorly make me youtube ad cash')
Alt-right/nazi being part of a big historic tent of retention isn't interesting VS having a few of 'em on record as to why they opted to open up their mouths and commit this position for everyone to see. There have been a few people who were really into what is called 'alt right' and at least 1 who self ids as ex neo-nazi who've went on record as to their thought processes of the past, but no idea if they commented on nnn/nofap. The future alien archeologists of a dead world/part of an infodump as a trade goods to aliens for them to shake their heads while asking "why?" should have an answer and who better to bring such an answer than a person who's life's work is claimed to be about people's theories about conspiracies. If part of the answer also helps to explain the use of historical events to weave a narrative perhaps this observation could then get applied by the qAnon "researchers", listeners of Infowars, or David icke lizard believers to help talk those folks off of the ledge they find themselves on when the topic is lower stakes like 'do you choose to go to xhamster' for a month.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:02 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
And if someone was into actually analyzing others theories about conspiracies rather than point to religious views along with quotes from long dead people while clicking their tongue about religious people from the late 1800's getting laws written to bolster their POV a far more interesting take would be explaining how a theory about a conspiracy that is gonna have cultural legs should take something old with a history is fine fodder to take into the worldview you are selling. Even leaning into the whole legislative angle of Kellogs/the graham cracker dude as there is documentation they left behind as to their why's VS the older traditions or made up quotes from famous dead people which become an answer to 'how often does one think of rome'.
If one wants to read about neonazi and semen retention google's search shows articles going back years. With at least one of 'em complaining in 2018 about how the kvetching over the 'alt right' and retention was old and needed to end. An examination into why these people are leaning into tantric sex dogma would at least be new ground. (See Julius Evola for both the fascism AND the tantric along with being dead for 1/2 a century AND seems to have had face time with people who helped define WWII fascism for us today.)
Is it "I wasn't getting laid so rather than admit that claim its part of your tradition"? (I believe one can find self IDing 'incels' who'd made comments about that and i'm guessing one can find part of the 'modern dating sucks' crowd who'd fit here) Is it like how QAnon had a level of popularity - take a thing that is often repeated and old then tie that to the idea you are selling? Is it part of a $5000 a year 'better yourself club' and grabbing ideas that are old enough to avoid copyright also allows to make a claim how its not part of the new, bad thing? (extra points if you channel how nofap/NNN is gonna make you a manly man and then your omegle videos of you doing things blows up your man club). Is it some shit you said as a joke as at least one person makes the claim was Gavin's motivation like he's Rush Limbaugh reacting to a critique. Is it a simple way to show one has some kind of control in a small way - and if so why has that been important to centuries of people such that oral/written traditions exist on the topic? Is it a search term that if you make media about it you'll get more views for? (alas, the search engines failed for links to Jeremy Hambly making a series of videos on the positive value of nofap/NNN to then contrast with his search history he'd show on stream but that drunkard is a fine example of having no guiding light beyond 'will this 10 mins of reading other people's articles poorly make me youtube ad cash')
Alt-right/nazi being part of a big historic tent of retention isn't interesting VS having a few of 'em on record as to why they opted to open up their mouths and commit this position for everyone to see. There have been a few people who were really into what is called 'alt right' and at least 1 who self ids as ex neo-nazi who've went on record as to their thought processes of the past, but no idea if they commented on nnn/nofap. The future alien archeologists of a dead world/part of an infodump as a trade goods to aliens for them to shake their heads while asking "why?" should have an answer and who better to bring such an answer than a person who's life's work is claimed to be about people's theories about conspiracies. If part of the answer also helps to explain the use of historical events to weave a narrative perhaps this observation could then get applied by the qAnon "researchers", listeners of Infowars, or David icke lizard believers to help talk those folks off of the ledge they find themselves on when the topic is lower stakes like 'do you choose to go to xhamster' for a month.
posted by rough ashlar at 6:02 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I apologize if my comment was unclear - I called a comment appropriation because the references to Zoroastrianism, Islam, and Hinduism seem purely superficial and orientalist. The comment seems to boil down to the implicit idea that assigning the label "eastern" to a thing makes it automatically above reproach (and automatically incapable of aligning with neo nazi beliefs). I suspect these eastern beliefs are invoked only because of the cover they provide, for the gloss they lend to one's own positions, not because the commenter actually understands the reality of them.
If folks here truly have some deeper understanding of eastern semen retention practices as they are experienced by the people who are expected to practice them, please do elaborate on your understanding instead of just appealing to eastern mysticism as a cover to legitimize your positions, whatever they may be.
When it comes to brahminical Hindu beliefs at least I know first hand that these invocations are horribly inappropriate and wrong. The practices of semen retention as part of brahmacharya or as part of asceticism are deeply misogynistic and homophobic, as well as murderously casteist - quite relevant to this FPP's discussion of how neo nazis are some of the loudest proponents of the modern versions of semen retention.
Just about the only "clean" support of antifap I've heard of is the Stoic version of it, since there is no tradition of Stoics oppressing the shit out of downtrodden peoples for centuries with their didactic beliefs. As something of a dabbler, I've never actually come across a serious modern Stoic supporter of no-fap for real - the folks I follow focus on things that actually matter like getting rid of social media or anti-consumption.
posted by MiraK at 6:10 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
If folks here truly have some deeper understanding of eastern semen retention practices as they are experienced by the people who are expected to practice them, please do elaborate on your understanding instead of just appealing to eastern mysticism as a cover to legitimize your positions, whatever they may be.
When it comes to brahminical Hindu beliefs at least I know first hand that these invocations are horribly inappropriate and wrong. The practices of semen retention as part of brahmacharya or as part of asceticism are deeply misogynistic and homophobic, as well as murderously casteist - quite relevant to this FPP's discussion of how neo nazis are some of the loudest proponents of the modern versions of semen retention.
Just about the only "clean" support of antifap I've heard of is the Stoic version of it, since there is no tradition of Stoics oppressing the shit out of downtrodden peoples for centuries with their didactic beliefs. As something of a dabbler, I've never actually come across a serious modern Stoic supporter of no-fap for real - the folks I follow focus on things that actually matter like getting rid of social media or anti-consumption.
posted by MiraK at 6:10 PM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hey, this whole discussion just brought back a sudden weird remembrance from my early freshman year, and Iʻm just wondering if there are other geezer-Yalie MeFiers out there who recall finding "The New Fraternity" pamphlets in their mailboxes from time to time. You know, the ones written by that old grad named, strangely Pynchonesquely, George Gundelfinger? His screeds carried an early-20th-century tonal density, featuring great lashings of circumlocution. I had to ask my Student Dorm Advisor what Mr. Gʻs advocacy of practicing what he called "Subliminal Pumping" was all about. The Advisor knew.
posted by Droll Lord at 8:25 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Droll Lord at 8:25 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just about the only "clean" support of antifap I've heard of is the Stoic version of it, since there is no tradition of Stoics oppressing the shit out of downtrodden peoples for centuries with their didactic beliefs.
Sorry to break it to you, MiraK.
Why The Alt Right Loves Ancient Greece And Rome
"“Stoicism, when used as a tool rather than a philosophy as a whole, has an uncomfortable relationship with the right wing of the Republican Party, and we need to address that...”
posted by MrVisible at 10:04 PM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sorry to break it to you, MiraK.
Why The Alt Right Loves Ancient Greece And Rome
"“Stoicism, when used as a tool rather than a philosophy as a whole, has an uncomfortable relationship with the right wing of the Republican Party, and we need to address that...”
posted by MrVisible at 10:04 PM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Stoic author Marcus Aurelius dedicated his Mediatations while campaigning against the Quadi in what is now modern Slovakia. Imperial Rome's frontiers certainly had a "tradition of Stoics oppressing the shit out of downtrodden peoples for centuries."
posted by Earthtopus at 10:19 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Earthtopus at 10:19 PM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I waited for someone else to say this, but in Christian symbolism, the Holy Ghost is pretty clearly God's semen.
From the KJV Luke:
From the KJV Luke:
And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.posted by jamjam at 2:46 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
What I meant was, there's no Stoic tradition of oppressing the shit out of people by making them stop masturbating and shaming people for masturbating, as far as I know! Stoics are also not anti-sex or homophobic I think? This means a Stoic coming up with a no-fap challenge doesn't have centuries of finger wagging about sex and masturbation behind them lending other layers of meaning to their challenge.
But I may be wrong about that too - maybe I don't know what the Stoics really got up to any more than other commenters here know what Qi practitioners and muslims and Hindus and Zoroastrians get up to.
(I'm sure Stoics in general are just as human as anyone else and have murdered, pillaged, and made war just like anyone else.)
posted by MiraK at 4:35 AM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I may be wrong about that too - maybe I don't know what the Stoics really got up to any more than other commenters here know what Qi practitioners and muslims and Hindus and Zoroastrians get up to.
(I'm sure Stoics in general are just as human as anyone else and have murdered, pillaged, and made war just like anyone else.)
posted by MiraK at 4:35 AM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
kramerimout.gif
posted by logicpunk at 4:52 AM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
kramerimout.gif
posted by logicpunk at 4:52 AM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
You know, the ones written by that old grad named, strangely Pynchonesquely, George Gundelfinger?
George Frederick Gundelfinger, Yale '06, distributor of pamphlets decrying Yale as a den of iniquity, has become as much a legend in New Haven as Rinehart in Cambridge--but in a different way. Gundelfinger has been a very real and present figure to 30 years of Yalies. (the Harvard Crimson)
Note that '06 is 19-ought six.
And also that Yale keeps the Gundelfinger Papers on file and available. Sounds absolutely fascinating.
posted by chavenet at 3:25 PM on November 14, 2023
George Frederick Gundelfinger, Yale '06, distributor of pamphlets decrying Yale as a den of iniquity, has become as much a legend in New Haven as Rinehart in Cambridge--but in a different way. Gundelfinger has been a very real and present figure to 30 years of Yalies. (the Harvard Crimson)
Note that '06 is 19-ought six.
And also that Yale keeps the Gundelfinger Papers on file and available. Sounds absolutely fascinating.
posted by chavenet at 3:25 PM on November 14, 2023
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This is a beautiful phrase.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:07 PM on November 12, 2023 [24 favorites]