Sentenced to a job in fast food
December 6, 2023 12:51 PM Subscribe
The woman who threw a burrito bowl in a Chipotle employee's face back in September has been sentenced to a fine and 180 days jail time, with that time reduced to 60 days in exchange for working 20 hours per week at a fast food restaurant for two months. "She got exactly what she deserved. She’s gonna walk in my shoes,” Russell said.
(Food and Wine link so as not to hit paywalls/run up against Washington Post strike.)
(Food and Wine link so as not to hit paywalls/run up against Washington Post strike.)
Were we just talking about restorative justice?
posted by saturday_morning at 1:10 PM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by saturday_morning at 1:10 PM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
“You know, she’s working 20 hours a week. She’s lucky — I was working 65-hour weeks.”
The elephant isn't always the center of attention, but he's always in the room.
posted by klanawa at 1:11 PM on December 6, 2023 [101 favorites]
The elephant isn't always the center of attention, but he's always in the room.
posted by klanawa at 1:11 PM on December 6, 2023 [101 favorites]
I'm all for creative sentencing that tries to correct instead of punish behavior. Based on the video and Hayne's actions that has a chance at working here. I'm a little bothered, though, that working in a fast food restaurant counts as punishment for a crime, even if I somewhat understand why it does. It feels like telling the people behind the counter their job is a punishment for the crime of either wanting or needing that job.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 1:14 PM on December 6, 2023 [93 favorites]
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 1:14 PM on December 6, 2023 [93 favorites]
I understand what you mean by that, Clinging to the Wreckage, but having worked in foodservice for many years (not currently, but recently) I know that my coworkers and I often discussed what it would be like if people, especially rude customers, were forced to work and endure what we did. I think the point about 20 hours vs. 65 is, in this context, extremely relevant to how well this will work and I kind of wish the judge had taken this into consideration.
posted by Night_owl at 1:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [71 favorites]
posted by Night_owl at 1:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [71 favorites]
As for Russell, the victim, she decided to resign from Chipotle and told Today that she is now dealing with symptoms of anxiety on the heels of the burrito blow.
“We live in a world right now where she could have done anything she wanted. She could have punched me in my face or pulled a gun out. I’m lucky that I only got a bowl thrown on my face,” Russell reflected.
People are really something. I cannot imagine getting upset enough about lunch to throw food in a restaurant or even yell at a counter worker. What the fuck?
I'm not sure that the punishment is perfect. If she was unemployed (and a lot of folks are right now), she was just handed a job. Who knows.
posted by heyho at 1:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
“We live in a world right now where she could have done anything she wanted. She could have punched me in my face or pulled a gun out. I’m lucky that I only got a bowl thrown on my face,” Russell reflected.
People are really something. I cannot imagine getting upset enough about lunch to throw food in a restaurant or even yell at a counter worker. What the fuck?
I'm not sure that the punishment is perfect. If she was unemployed (and a lot of folks are right now), she was just handed a job. Who knows.
posted by heyho at 1:21 PM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
As a former barista, you'd be amazed at how often people--even people that would likely describe themselves as nice people--turn into monsters when interacting with people serving them food or coffee.
posted by Kitteh at 1:24 PM on December 6, 2023 [51 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 1:24 PM on December 6, 2023 [51 favorites]
If I were an ordinary employee at the fast food restaurant where the perpetrator is sentenced to work, I would quit on the spot, or at the very least demand to be transferred to a different shift. At best, she'll be an inexperienced, unmotivated employee who will screw things up and slow things down, and at worst she'll be an absolute nightmare.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:43 PM on December 6, 2023 [47 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:43 PM on December 6, 2023 [47 favorites]
the burrito blow
I think we've all experienced that at one time or another.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:45 PM on December 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I think we've all experienced that at one time or another.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:45 PM on December 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
On one hand this is the absolute best way for this woman to learn to be better, and I love that one of the principles of restorative justice is being tried out IRL by the mainstream justice system. Wow!
On the other hand, the real employees of whichever fast food place she will serve out her sentence in are the ones who are being punished. Did they volunteer to be her rehabilitators? Are they being paid extra by the justice system to facilitate the carryout of this judge's sentence in addition to doing their day jobs? It seems pretty exploitative.
posted by MiraK at 1:47 PM on December 6, 2023 [73 favorites]
On the other hand, the real employees of whichever fast food place she will serve out her sentence in are the ones who are being punished. Did they volunteer to be her rehabilitators? Are they being paid extra by the justice system to facilitate the carryout of this judge's sentence in addition to doing their day jobs? It seems pretty exploitative.
posted by MiraK at 1:47 PM on December 6, 2023 [73 favorites]
I'm totally in favor of this because some people won't learn except through direct experience.
I note that in my office today we were forced to discuss "what do you do when someone continues to mispronounce your name after you've corrected them a bunch of times." Per some discussions I've read online (which is to say Ask A Manager, pretty sure I saw it there), I suggested mispronouncing the mispronouncer's name. It was dubbed passive-aggressive, and yet it just might work, with a high level manager suggesting a particularly Key-and-Peele way of pronouncing the guy's name to boot.
Learn what it's like, y'all. She's gonna hate those 20 hours and it'll feel like full time, I'm sure.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:52 PM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
I note that in my office today we were forced to discuss "what do you do when someone continues to mispronounce your name after you've corrected them a bunch of times." Per some discussions I've read online (which is to say Ask A Manager, pretty sure I saw it there), I suggested mispronouncing the mispronouncer's name. It was dubbed passive-aggressive, and yet it just might work, with a high level manager suggesting a particularly Key-and-Peele way of pronouncing the guy's name to boot.
Learn what it's like, y'all. She's gonna hate those 20 hours and it'll feel like full time, I'm sure.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:52 PM on December 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
I just seriously contemplated whether I'd rather do 90 days in jail or 60 days in jail and another two months working at a fast-food restaurant where every single one of my coworkers knew, because of course they would, that I had been ordered to do so by a judge after throwing food at a fast-food worker, and I think I'd rather just do the 90 days in jail.
posted by box at 1:56 PM on December 6, 2023 [38 favorites]
posted by box at 1:56 PM on December 6, 2023 [38 favorites]
I hope that she turns into a union leader and helps people destroy corporate work environment so that we don't have work that is considered punishment.
posted by MonsieurPEB at 1:57 PM on December 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by MonsieurPEB at 1:57 PM on December 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
On the other hand, the real employees of whichever fast food place she will serve out her sentence in are the ones who are being punished.
If I had been selected to spend some time educating one of the monstrous customers at my former cafe job in the intricacies of the position, I doubt I would have considered it punishment. My entire crew would have met the opportunity with glee.
posted by corey flood at 1:59 PM on December 6, 2023 [48 favorites]
If I had been selected to spend some time educating one of the monstrous customers at my former cafe job in the intricacies of the position, I doubt I would have considered it punishment. My entire crew would have met the opportunity with glee.
posted by corey flood at 1:59 PM on December 6, 2023 [48 favorites]
in agreement with what some others have posted, I have LONG argued that not only to graduating high school seniors desperately need a skip year (so they don't see college as another year of high school), but that they should be required to do a service level job for that year.
After all, the people who are the most gracious and tip best tend to be the ones who've worked those service jobs.
posted by jkosmicki at 2:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [41 favorites]
After all, the people who are the most gracious and tip best tend to be the ones who've worked those service jobs.
posted by jkosmicki at 2:02 PM on December 6, 2023 [41 favorites]
If she does such a lousy job that she gets fired or can't handle it and quits, she goes back to jail, right?
posted by LionIndex at 2:03 PM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 2:03 PM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
This was the plot of the fake show in Seinfeld - the criminal person didn't have any money to pay restitution so they had to be the person's butler. That was supposed to be the most ridiculous thing they could imagine, but hey let's try it out in real life.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's a huge difference between this and being forced to work as someone's personal butler.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:09 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:09 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know that I'd want her to make my food.
posted by Splunge at 2:10 PM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 2:10 PM on December 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
I keep going back and forth on this one. There is an element of "poetic justice" that does appeal to me, and I think working in service jobs would possibly cause more people to reconsider how they navigate the world. But having worked in food service, having someone on my shift because they behaved like this would feel an awful lot like I was being punished. I worked with a lot of characters in fast food, but our place was reasonably well-run and the real assholes were on the other side of the counter.
posted by EvaDestruction at 2:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by EvaDestruction at 2:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The idea that people who work in service jobs treat other service workers better was not borne out in either my five years in food service (McDonalds, Taco Lita, Seattle's Best Coffee and Jamba Juice) nor my five additional years in retail (body jewelry store, health supplement store and pet supply store). Additionally, people who know the job are often hypercritical of other people in the same role; one of the most grating dates of my life was with a woman whose background was in food service who would not stop going after the server whose thumb she'd seen touch the inner rim of her plate.
For what it's worth, if every job paid the same I would still be working at Jamba Juice. I fucking loved that job. People came in wanting something, I gave it to them and they left happy. I would do that job forever if I could live comfortably on what I was earning. I'd certainly take 20 hours a week of it over jail.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [28 favorites]
For what it's worth, if every job paid the same I would still be working at Jamba Juice. I fucking loved that job. People came in wanting something, I gave it to them and they left happy. I would do that job forever if I could live comfortably on what I was earning. I'd certainly take 20 hours a week of it over jail.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [28 favorites]
After all, the people who are the most gracious and tip best tend to be the ones who've worked those service jobs.
PREACH!
All the best tips during my barista years were from fellow service or retail workers because they knew what it was like to be demeaned on the reg. Again, it's amazing how a counter between you and another person turns you--the service worker--into A Poor Who Probably Can't Get Another Job instead of a person just trying to make a living like everyone else.
posted by Kitteh at 2:16 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
PREACH!
All the best tips during my barista years were from fellow service or retail workers because they knew what it was like to be demeaned on the reg. Again, it's amazing how a counter between you and another person turns you--the service worker--into A Poor Who Probably Can't Get Another Job instead of a person just trying to make a living like everyone else.
posted by Kitteh at 2:16 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
We all live in our own prisons, Brendan. I mean, we're all trapped in these bodies. You have to go to school, that's a prison. I have to be a soccer coach, that's a prison. This conversation? It's a prison. Foucault by way of H. Jon Benjamin.
posted by JDHarper at 2:18 PM on December 6, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by JDHarper at 2:18 PM on December 6, 2023 [26 favorites]
This is not restorative justice. This is a free part-time worker for a fast food corporation.
posted by AlSweigart at 2:19 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 2:19 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that she work for free. She gets to have whatever 20 hours the just in time staffing algorithm throws at her, and get paid whatever the going rate is for it.
I too am of the opinion that user-facing jobs should be required for everyone.
posted by rockindata at 2:29 PM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
I too am of the opinion that user-facing jobs should be required for everyone.
posted by rockindata at 2:29 PM on December 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
What % of the population supposedly doesn’t have an internal monologue??
Thems a superset of burrito bowl throwers I think
posted by torokunai at 2:30 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thems a superset of burrito bowl throwers I think
posted by torokunai at 2:30 PM on December 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
All the best tips during my barista years were from fellow service or retail workers because they knew what it was like to be demeaned on the reg.
It's a second-order effect, but even though I've never worked fast food or retail, I try to tip well and be gracious, understanding, and patient because I know people who have worked in those positions and I've heard all sorts of stories about how awful they've been treated.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:30 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's a second-order effect, but even though I've never worked fast food or retail, I try to tip well and be gracious, understanding, and patient because I know people who have worked in those positions and I've heard all sorts of stories about how awful they've been treated.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:30 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Relatedly, and for the lols: Scott Seiss' videos of things that are said to people who work in retail are funny and on point.
posted by nikoniko at 2:32 PM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by nikoniko at 2:32 PM on December 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
At my old job, we had to babysit some college kids who had committed various infractions and were required to do community service. They did a lousy job, didn't learn anything and we couldn't get our own work done. A lose-lose for everyone.
posted by Melismata at 2:37 PM on December 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 2:37 PM on December 6, 2023 [16 favorites]
What element of this exactly counts as restorative, and where is the proper denunciation of a crime by the law? If this is an example of it it confirms my view of 'restorative' justice being basically incoherent. Being 'sentenced' to a job that other people presumably have interviewed for, and been rejected from, seems perverse to me. And hardly justice.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:39 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:39 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
At best, she'll be an inexperienced, unmotivated employee who will screw things up and slow things down, and at worst she'll be an absolute nightmare
One can only hope. Put her on the counter for her 20 hours and enjoy the restitution.
posted by B3taCatScan at 2:43 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
One can only hope. Put her on the counter for her 20 hours and enjoy the restitution.
posted by B3taCatScan at 2:43 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Perhaps the offender should be required to purchase the equivalent of 180 meals of choice for the person offended.
posted by effluvia at 2:48 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by effluvia at 2:48 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
[it's also I would note one of the most common criticisms of modern prison practice that inmates are required to do work for for-profit enterprises, which when it's behind bars and in a green tracksuit uniform, is seen for the forced labour that it is, but I suppose this has the LOL element that lets people leave their principles behind]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:49 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 2:49 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I suppose this has the LOL element that lets people leave their principles behind
Or perhaps it's the fact that she'd be fully paid and working at a job many people work at voluntarily?
posted by mark k at 3:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Or perhaps it's the fact that she'd be fully paid and working at a job many people work at voluntarily?
posted by mark k at 3:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Nothing like being told by the community that your job is not only punishment, but something any loser can do at a moment's notice.
posted by krisjohn at 3:07 PM on December 6, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by krisjohn at 3:07 PM on December 6, 2023 [28 favorites]
I'd guess that the goal is to give her a taste of what it's like on the other side of the counter. I wonder if there's a different way to expand her horizons or give her the opportunity to develop empathy other than put her to work in fast-food.
posted by Gorgik at 3:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Gorgik at 3:15 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is *no way* this person's small heart is going to grow three sizes (or whatever the idea is) over the course of approximately 80 hours of being forced, under penalty of jail time, to work in the fast food restaurant where she assaulted someone. They didn't even plead guilty.
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
[...]the real employees [...] are the ones who are being punished. Did they volunteer to be her rehabilitators? Are they being paid extra by the justice system to facilitate the carryout of this judge's sentence[...]?I have heard similar complaints from people in Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and the like. They generally don't like having court-ordered participants at their meetings.
posted by Hatashran at 3:47 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
working 20 hours per week at a fast food restaurant for two months.
The mechanics of this will be interesting. It appears she is required to find the job herself and I'm not sure how she's going to do that if she's honest about only staying two months.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
The mechanics of this will be interesting. It appears she is required to find the job herself and I'm not sure how she's going to do that if she's honest about only staying two months.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 3:53 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Overall I think this is good, mainly because I don't view it as punishment as much as rehabilitation.
I'm trying to remember my days in retail and how I would have felt about having a coworker who was there as part of a legal sentence.... and how many of my coworkers may be *been* there as part of a legal sentence. From some people's approach to work it was kind of hard to tell. It was very clear that they didn't want to be there though, and I'm not sure that adding one more person into that mix is going to make things significantly worse for retail workers than it already can be.
I wish there was a little more specificity to the sentence though. She could get a job that isn't customer facing in which case the exercise may be moot.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:13 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm trying to remember my days in retail and how I would have felt about having a coworker who was there as part of a legal sentence.... and how many of my coworkers may be *been* there as part of a legal sentence. From some people's approach to work it was kind of hard to tell. It was very clear that they didn't want to be there though, and I'm not sure that adding one more person into that mix is going to make things significantly worse for retail workers than it already can be.
I wish there was a little more specificity to the sentence though. She could get a job that isn't customer facing in which case the exercise may be moot.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:13 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
This would only work if all her income streams were suspended for some period so she actually needed the wages to survive. Otherwise, what's her motivation to actually fulfill any of her position's duties? And how would her supervisor enforce anything? She'll wind up sitting in a chair back in the kitchen, engaged with her cell phone until her sentence runs out.
posted by Rash at 4:16 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Rash at 4:16 PM on December 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
There is *no way* this person's small heart is going to grow three sizes (or whatever the idea is) over the course of approximately 80 hours of being forced, under penalty of jail time, to work in the fast food restaurant where she assaulted someone. They didn't even plead guilty.
I get this, and am also skeptical, since throwing food at someone seems over-the-top.
I used to do something that was similar to restorative justice with people that had been convicted of crimes rooted in gender-based violence. And there were a ton of participants that didn't (obviously) grow as a result. But there were also absolutely participants who said things like "I never thought about it that way" or "I think about this differently now". Whether that translates into future behavior is another question. But it seemed to me that there was a chance that people had been changed by the experience. And that program was 30 hours long.
posted by Gorgik at 4:20 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I get this, and am also skeptical, since throwing food at someone seems over-the-top.
I used to do something that was similar to restorative justice with people that had been convicted of crimes rooted in gender-based violence. And there were a ton of participants that didn't (obviously) grow as a result. But there were also absolutely participants who said things like "I never thought about it that way" or "I think about this differently now". Whether that translates into future behavior is another question. But it seemed to me that there was a chance that people had been changed by the experience. And that program was 30 hours long.
posted by Gorgik at 4:20 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Otherwise, what's her motivation to actually fulfill any of her position's duties? And how would her supervisor enforce anything? She'll wind up sitting in a chair back in the kitchen, engaged with her cell phone until her sentence runs out.
She can't be that blatant or she will be fired. Remember she has to find and keep this job all on her own.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:58 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
She can't be that blatant or she will be fired. Remember she has to find and keep this job all on her own.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 4:58 PM on December 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
And hope nobody Googles her.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on December 6, 2023
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:44 PM on December 6, 2023
I'm not sure that the punishment is perfect. If she was unemployed (and a lot of folks are right now), she was just handed a job. Who knows.
I don't know the situation in the article. Just responding to this idea here. If someone was unemployed and being awful because sometimes people are awful when their needs aren't being met, and now they have a job? Could potentially work out.
posted by aniola at 6:26 PM on December 6, 2023
I don't know the situation in the article. Just responding to this idea here. If someone was unemployed and being awful because sometimes people are awful when their needs aren't being met, and now they have a job? Could potentially work out.
posted by aniola at 6:26 PM on December 6, 2023
As far as I can tell she was not handed a job, merely given great encouragement to get one.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:35 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:35 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is interesting, and may be useful as rehabilitation for the perpetrator, but restorative justice it ain’t. Fundamentally, restorative justice is focused on those that suffered the harm, making them whole, to the extent possible righting the wrong, and trying to prevent the harm from recurring. What happens to the perpetrator of the harm, except insofar as it applies to that, is an afterthought. (Much as what happens to crime victims in the wake of a crime is an afterthought to our system of retributive “justice”)
posted by sanedragon at 6:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by sanedragon at 6:42 PM on December 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I suggested mispronouncing the mispronouncer's name. It was dubbed passive-aggressive, and yet it just might work
Passive aggression is skilled aggression.
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Passive aggression is skilled aggression.
posted by flabdablet at 10:18 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why do I get the feeling this lady probably has a connection to some minor local gentry with a fiefdom of franchised chains, who can give her a six-month sinecure position with the barest of interviews?
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:44 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 10:44 PM on December 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Are fast food chains to become the new chain gangs?
posted by quazichimp at 11:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by quazichimp at 11:04 PM on December 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't trust her anywhere near food to be served to the public. That and all the other concerns voiced above. This is creative sentencing gone wrong. Let her do her time behind bars.
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:52 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 11:52 PM on December 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean... prisons have kitchens, don't they? Where prisoner employees serve food to people who are often considered very difficult to work with? Wouldn't prison with a side of KP be a more apt punishment that also delivers the desired effect?
posted by Shepherd at 3:01 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Shepherd at 3:01 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm kind of curious how they will find an employer who is up for this.
posted by srboisvert at 3:22 AM on December 7, 2023
posted by srboisvert at 3:22 AM on December 7, 2023
I can't imagine even complaining about getting the wrong thing at a place like Chipotle, or anything else, really. "Hmm, this is not actually what I ordered... I guess this is my opportunity to try the carnitas!" Because I don't want to be That Guy, or harangue (even extremely politely) the waitstaff who work a lot harder than I do.
Fairly recently, the server gave my wife and me each other's plate, and she, who is far more observant than I, immediately held out hers and told me to hand her mine, and the waitress started bowing and scraping, like we were going to say "off with her head!' and we're like neither one of us cares and I didn't even notice, and the waitress was just baffled on some level that we passed up the opportunity to make her cringe. I'm like I'm a communist, you should own the goddamn place.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:50 AM on December 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Fairly recently, the server gave my wife and me each other's plate, and she, who is far more observant than I, immediately held out hers and told me to hand her mine, and the waitress started bowing and scraping, like we were going to say "off with her head!' and we're like neither one of us cares and I didn't even notice, and the waitress was just baffled on some level that we passed up the opportunity to make her cringe. I'm like I'm a communist, you should own the goddamn place.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:50 AM on December 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
in agreement with what some others have posted, I have LONG argued that not only to graduating high school seniors desperately need a skip year (so they don't see college as another year of high school), but that they should be required to do a service level job for that year.
I had to do mandatory national service. I don't advocate armed national service necessarily but mandatory retail service for a 6-12 months for every citizen I would advocate for. The people who don't learn any sense of belonging to a larger community were never going to learn that lesson anyway, but some people might.
Also, completely anecdotally, I feel like the pandemic, lockdowns and *broadly gesturing at everything* has made folks more hostile in every day interactions. Maybe it's just me projecting or being more sensitive to it, but I do wonder if looking back on this time period there will be any studies on noticeable cultural shifts.
posted by slimepuppy at 5:21 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I had to do mandatory national service. I don't advocate armed national service necessarily but mandatory retail service for a 6-12 months for every citizen I would advocate for. The people who don't learn any sense of belonging to a larger community were never going to learn that lesson anyway, but some people might.
Also, completely anecdotally, I feel like the pandemic, lockdowns and *broadly gesturing at everything* has made folks more hostile in every day interactions. Maybe it's just me projecting or being more sensitive to it, but I do wonder if looking back on this time period there will be any studies on noticeable cultural shifts.
posted by slimepuppy at 5:21 AM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also worked fast food for a while, also torn about this implementation of less-carceral justice. I feel like it would be improved by setting the total number of hours she has to work, but, same as for her colleagues, whether she actually gets put on the schedule is up to the capricious whims of her manager. And maybe the court can tell all the other workers that they can complain to their boss if this person is a liability without fear of reprisal. Then either she learns the job and is a good colleague or it takes her ages to finish the sentence because she never gets any hours.
Also probably other sources of income/savings should be rendered inaccessible for the duration, to make it realistic.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:22 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also probably other sources of income/savings should be rendered inaccessible for the duration, to make it realistic.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:22 AM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Real housewives of Parma." lol.gif
If you knew what Parma is really like, this is much much funnier.
posted by slogger at 5:47 AM on December 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
If you knew what Parma is really like, this is much much funnier.
posted by slogger at 5:47 AM on December 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault, but one must remember that these things don't happen in a vacuum. It is very unlikely this woman walked into Chipotle in a pleasant mood. Perhaps some great misfortune recently befell her, and this was a "last straw" kind of scenario. That doesn't justify resorting to violence, but she's still a human, and deserving of some sympathy.
Just to be clear, I do not advocate burrito bowling.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 10:05 AM on December 7, 2023
Just to be clear, I do not advocate burrito bowling.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 10:05 AM on December 7, 2023
slogger. My sentiments exactly :)
posted by kathrynm at 10:42 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kathrynm at 10:42 AM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Parma, yep. I live nearby. It's all true!
They could really make it a lot more realistic and force her to have to take like 3 different busses to a location an hour away, then pay her minimum wage (or $2.13/hr!)
On the other hand, I guess you can now commit assault and get a free job! That is pretty American, I guess.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:10 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
They could really make it a lot more realistic and force her to have to take like 3 different busses to a location an hour away, then pay her minimum wage (or $2.13/hr!)
On the other hand, I guess you can now commit assault and get a free job! That is pretty American, I guess.
posted by SystematicAbuse at 12:10 PM on December 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think throwing someone in jail for 120 days—a third of a year—for the crime of throwing a salad in someone’s face is ridiculous and completely disproportionate.
In fact, I think a more just society would remove the judge from the bench and discipline the prosecutor.
I’ve had people do worse things to me dozens and scores of times in public, and I would never have bothered to call the police, much less seek to have them prosecuted.
Yes, the woman who did this is probably a bad person and should compensate the victim somehow, but 120 days in jail?
And I’m kind of aghast at the glee people here are expressing over this.
posted by jamjam at 12:13 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
In fact, I think a more just society would remove the judge from the bench and discipline the prosecutor.
I’ve had people do worse things to me dozens and scores of times in public, and I would never have bothered to call the police, much less seek to have them prosecuted.
Yes, the woman who did this is probably a bad person and should compensate the victim somehow, but 120 days in jail?
And I’m kind of aghast at the glee people here are expressing over this.
posted by jamjam at 12:13 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, I'd've fed her to crocodiles, Jamjam, but were I in charge, America's crocodiles would be too bloated from feasting on our ruling class and people who talk on speakerphone in public to do much more than lazily look at her as she ran in terror.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:51 PM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 12:51 PM on December 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
On the other hand, I guess you can now commit assault and get a free job!
And once again, she's the one who has to find the job.
The framing of this event -- not just here, but in every single headline I've seen -- has misrepresented what has going on.
I fear a meme has entered the public consciousness that will soon rival the vastly misrepresented story of a woman suing McDonalds for hot coffee.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:29 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
And once again, she's the one who has to find the job.
The framing of this event -- not just here, but in every single headline I've seen -- has misrepresented what has going on.
I fear a meme has entered the public consciousness that will soon rival the vastly misrepresented story of a woman suing McDonalds for hot coffee.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:29 PM on December 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
For her misdeeds, Hayne was initially ordered to pay a fine and serve 180 days in jail with 90 days suspended. Due to the unique nature of her crime, Judge Gilligan offered her an alternative option to reduce her jail time. If Hayne agreed to and followed through with working 20 hours per week at a fast-food restaurant for two months, she could reduce her time behind bars to 60 days. Hayne reportedly apologized to the court and to Russell, accepted the counteroffer, and will soon be standing behind a fast-food counter (whether it’s a Chipotle counter has yet to be determined).
As for Russell, the victim, she decided to resign from Chipotle and told Today that she is now dealing with symptoms of anxiety on the heels of the burrito blow. Russell wasn’t even initially involved with Hayne, by the way. As the manager on duty, she bravely stepped in after Hayne started yelling at a 17-year-old employee.
Yep, quote from TFA, emphasis mine. This isn't "sentenced to work at a fast food place", this is "sentenced to jail, with an opportunity to reduce the sentence by 2/3 by working part time at a fast food place." Six months for assault doesn't seem too out of line to me.
Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault, but one must remember that these things don't happen in a vacuum. It is very unlikely this woman walked into Chipotle in a pleasant mood. Perhaps some great misfortune recently befell her, and this was a "last straw" kind of scenario. That doesn't justify resorting to violence, but she's still a human, and deserving of some sympathy.
You don't have any evidence that what you're saying is true, any more than I have evidence for saying this person is a narcissistic sociopath. There is no situation where throwing a salad at someone or screaming at a 17 year old employee is appropriate, no matter what happens to you that day.
posted by LionIndex at 1:44 PM on December 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
As for Russell, the victim, she decided to resign from Chipotle and told Today that she is now dealing with symptoms of anxiety on the heels of the burrito blow. Russell wasn’t even initially involved with Hayne, by the way. As the manager on duty, she bravely stepped in after Hayne started yelling at a 17-year-old employee.
Yep, quote from TFA, emphasis mine. This isn't "sentenced to work at a fast food place", this is "sentenced to jail, with an opportunity to reduce the sentence by 2/3 by working part time at a fast food place." Six months for assault doesn't seem too out of line to me.
Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault, but one must remember that these things don't happen in a vacuum. It is very unlikely this woman walked into Chipotle in a pleasant mood. Perhaps some great misfortune recently befell her, and this was a "last straw" kind of scenario. That doesn't justify resorting to violence, but she's still a human, and deserving of some sympathy.
You don't have any evidence that what you're saying is true, any more than I have evidence for saying this person is a narcissistic sociopath. There is no situation where throwing a salad at someone or screaming at a 17 year old employee is appropriate, no matter what happens to you that day.
posted by LionIndex at 1:44 PM on December 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
You don't have any evidence that what you're saying is true
I wasn't exactly making assertions, apart from "these things don't happen in a vacuum," which is self-evident. The rest is probabilities and possibilities, which do not call for evidence, merely consideration. I like to try to understand people's motivations, even when I disapprove of their actions.
There is no situation where throwing a salad at someone or screaming at a 17 year old employee is appropriate
Like I said, "Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault", and "That doesn't justify resorting to violence."
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 2:04 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wasn't exactly making assertions, apart from "these things don't happen in a vacuum," which is self-evident. The rest is probabilities and possibilities, which do not call for evidence, merely consideration. I like to try to understand people's motivations, even when I disapprove of their actions.
There is no situation where throwing a salad at someone or screaming at a 17 year old employee is appropriate
Like I said, "Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault", and "That doesn't justify resorting to violence."
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 2:04 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ve had people do worse things to me dozens and scores of times in public
What? I had a roommate in college like this. He'd be walking down the street minding his own business and someone driving by would throw something at him. Normal dude too and somehow every tough guy also wanted to fight him. Like while waiting in line for the cafeteria. It was so odd.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:07 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
What? I had a roommate in college like this. He'd be walking down the street minding his own business and someone driving by would throw something at him. Normal dude too and somehow every tough guy also wanted to fight him. Like while waiting in line for the cafeteria. It was so odd.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:07 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I wasn't exactly making assertions, apart from "these things don't happen in a vacuum," which is self-evident. The rest is probabilities and possibilities, which do not call for evidence, merely consideration. I like to try to understand people's motivations, even when I disapprove of their actions.
That probably makes sense in some cases, but I think here you have a "person who feels it's OK to hurt someone else when they feel bad enough" and I don't feel like it accomplishes anything to determine where the "feel bad enough" threshold is when the "hurt someone else" is the problem. There is no threshold of suffering where you're allowed to hurt someone else.
posted by LionIndex at 3:24 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
That probably makes sense in some cases, but I think here you have a "person who feels it's OK to hurt someone else when they feel bad enough" and I don't feel like it accomplishes anything to determine where the "feel bad enough" threshold is when the "hurt someone else" is the problem. There is no threshold of suffering where you're allowed to hurt someone else.
posted by LionIndex at 3:24 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
> Like I said, "Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault",
Eh, your comment struck me as a classic "I'm not trying to be racist but..." type statement. Like:
> these things don't happen in a vacuum. ... Perhaps some great misfortune recently befell her, and this was a "last straw" kind of scenario.
How are these not excuses?! Do you not know what an excuse is? LOL.
So, okay, it's perfectly acceptable to say that human beings deserve the benefit of excuses, and the best sorts of people are those who can understand and empathize with why the miscreant did what they did. (I may not always agree but it's valid to argue that.) But I don't think it's acceptable to blatantly deny that an excuse is an excuse.
posted by MiraK at 3:39 PM on December 7, 2023
Eh, your comment struck me as a classic "I'm not trying to be racist but..." type statement. Like:
> these things don't happen in a vacuum. ... Perhaps some great misfortune recently befell her, and this was a "last straw" kind of scenario.
How are these not excuses?! Do you not know what an excuse is? LOL.
So, okay, it's perfectly acceptable to say that human beings deserve the benefit of excuses, and the best sorts of people are those who can understand and empathize with why the miscreant did what they did. (I may not always agree but it's valid to argue that.) But I don't think it's acceptable to blatantly deny that an excuse is an excuse.
posted by MiraK at 3:39 PM on December 7, 2023
How are these not excuses?!
You left out where I said, "That doesn't justify resorting to violence." That is unambiguous. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, this is probably a case of someone with poor self control overreacting after a crappy day rather than someone who can go from baseline to burrito-slam in a matter of minutes. I'm not arguing that it is acceptable behavior, no matter how much context you delete when quoting me. Sheesh.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 4:00 PM on December 7, 2023
You left out where I said, "That doesn't justify resorting to violence." That is unambiguous. All I'm saying is that in my opinion, this is probably a case of someone with poor self control overreacting after a crappy day rather than someone who can go from baseline to burrito-slam in a matter of minutes. I'm not arguing that it is acceptable behavior, no matter how much context you delete when quoting me. Sheesh.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 4:00 PM on December 7, 2023
Again, this person's poor self control should not include throwing hot food at a service worker no matter how bad your day has been. I have had some sublimely shitty days and never once thought about taking it out on someone just doing their job. I especially have never considered--no matter how furious I have been with shit in my life--assault. Just because she may have had a really crappy day isn't a pass. You're right. It doesn't justify resorting to violence, but that's the route she chose to take. Here are the consequences for her potientially shitty day.
posted by Kitteh at 4:09 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:09 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
> I don’t think anyone is suggesting that she work for free.
I can't find any information in this or any other article, but I assume this is a community service sentence? You don't get paid for that. It's free labor for some fast food company. This isn't restorative to the victim.
> You left out where I said, "That doesn't justify resorting to violence." That is unambiguous.
The next word after "That doesn't justify resorting to violence" was "but".
posted by AlSweigart at 5:04 PM on December 7, 2023
I can't find any information in this or any other article, but I assume this is a community service sentence? You don't get paid for that. It's free labor for some fast food company. This isn't restorative to the victim.
> You left out where I said, "That doesn't justify resorting to violence." That is unambiguous.
The next word after "That doesn't justify resorting to violence" was "but".
posted by AlSweigart at 5:04 PM on December 7, 2023
I have had some sublimely shitty days and never once thought about taking it out on someone just doing their job.
Pretty sure my friend whose husband is dying never once thought that pitching hot food on a service worker was a good idea, even in the throes of that particular kind of news.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:26 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure my friend whose husband is dying never once thought that pitching hot food on a service worker was a good idea, even in the throes of that particular kind of news.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:26 PM on December 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't find any information in this or any other article, but I assume this is a community service sentence?
No. From the article:
No. From the article:
The judge sentenced her to 180 days in jail and suspended 90 of those days. He said he would give her 60 days jail credit if she worked at least 20 hours per week at a fast food restaurant for two months. Hayne said she planned to get a job at a restaurant.posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:26 PM on December 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The next word after "That doesn't justify resorting to violence" was "but".
Yes, but the use the that particular conjunction doesn't always nullify what came before. In the context of an apology, sure, "but" is pretty much always a bullshit move. But in some contexts it is useful to signal a caveat. It makes room for nuance. Such as pointing out that certain behavior is unacceptable, while also trying to understand what might lead to it besides "they are a narcissistic sociopath."
The only reason I added "Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault" was because my inner voice warned me that my attempt to humanize the behavior might be be misinterpreted for excusing it. "I'd better explicitly point out that I'm NOT excusing it," I thought. But that didn't work.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:26 PM on December 7, 2023
Yes, but the use the that particular conjunction doesn't always nullify what came before. In the context of an apology, sure, "but" is pretty much always a bullshit move. But in some contexts it is useful to signal a caveat. It makes room for nuance. Such as pointing out that certain behavior is unacceptable, while also trying to understand what might lead to it besides "they are a narcissistic sociopath."
The only reason I added "Not to excuse this woman's over-the-top assault" was because my inner voice warned me that my attempt to humanize the behavior might be be misinterpreted for excusing it. "I'd better explicitly point out that I'm NOT excusing it," I thought. But that didn't work.
posted by Hot Pastrami! at 6:26 PM on December 7, 2023
pointing out that certain behavior is unacceptable, while also trying to understand what might lead to it besides "they are a narcissistic sociopath."
Theorizing about reasons why people might have done something unacceptable is where the is meets the ought. These two are irreconcilable, which makes the required shift of reference frame quite difficult to achieve, so having a lot of your audience completely misunderstand your point and jump down your throat for making it is pretty much par for the course. Don't sweat it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:07 PM on December 7, 2023
Theorizing about reasons why people might have done something unacceptable is where the is meets the ought. These two are irreconcilable, which makes the required shift of reference frame quite difficult to achieve, so having a lot of your audience completely misunderstand your point and jump down your throat for making it is pretty much par for the course. Don't sweat it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:07 PM on December 7, 2023
I’ve had people do worse things to me dozens and scores of times in public, and I would never have bothered to call the police, much less seek to have them prosecuted.
I am really troubled by this statement.
In this case, the context matters, in a "crimes against the Crown" kind of way. If a random person did this to me, I would dust myself off, glare, and just move on. But when a Customer does this to a Worker, it goes beyond just the two people involved and becomes about how we allow people in those roles to treat each other. That person committed a crime against decency.
posted by McBearclaw at 9:37 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am really troubled by this statement.
In this case, the context matters, in a "crimes against the Crown" kind of way. If a random person did this to me, I would dust myself off, glare, and just move on. But when a Customer does this to a Worker, it goes beyond just the two people involved and becomes about how we allow people in those roles to treat each other. That person committed a crime against decency.
posted by McBearclaw at 9:37 PM on December 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm very much opposed to the carceral state, but I'm not at all in favor of dismantling it by beginning with those it has harmed the least.
I'm not really sure what the appropriate response to a person like this should be. Prison is clearly not right, but what is? Mandatory anger counceling?
As far as working fast food as a punishment goes, frankly it is. It is how capitalism punishes those it deems least valuable and least worthy. Fast food jobs don't have to suck, they do because capitalism has decreed that they shall and our society has gone along with that.
The part where working fast food was handed down like a punishment was a refreshing bit of honesty in a society that lies about it all the time.
posted by sotonohito at 3:12 PM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm not really sure what the appropriate response to a person like this should be. Prison is clearly not right, but what is? Mandatory anger counceling?
As far as working fast food as a punishment goes, frankly it is. It is how capitalism punishes those it deems least valuable and least worthy. Fast food jobs don't have to suck, they do because capitalism has decreed that they shall and our society has gone along with that.
The part where working fast food was handed down like a punishment was a refreshing bit of honesty in a society that lies about it all the time.
posted by sotonohito at 3:12 PM on December 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Customer service and helping people for a living is a hell, no matter what. Fast food workers just presumably get paid less for it AND get yelled at that "if you have time to lean, you have time to clean" and get scrutinized way worse at every moment, it sounds like. Right now I am "supposedly" a more high level, part time service worker because it's white collar work. I get abused, stalked, and harassed, but not as much as someone working retail or fast food probably does. We have had objects thrown at us and police have had to be called, but the abuse I and my coworkers get get is over white collar crisis shit, money, people not turning their shit in on time. My old therapist said to me something like, "Retail is the same, except you're getting the same abuse over a sweater."
I truly don't know how the hell I am going to deal with it once I lose my job and really do need to consider going into full time retail or fast food work, because I can't handle the amount of abuse I get now and it's only part time abuse, and everyone has told me for years that every single job is customer service now. I know darned well I'm a spoiled brat compared to people who do customer service all the time. But this kind of thing is why I agree, to some degree, that this lady learning how to take abuse with a smile is a fit punishment for her crime.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:19 AM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
I truly don't know how the hell I am going to deal with it once I lose my job and really do need to consider going into full time retail or fast food work, because I can't handle the amount of abuse I get now and it's only part time abuse, and everyone has told me for years that every single job is customer service now. I know darned well I'm a spoiled brat compared to people who do customer service all the time. But this kind of thing is why I agree, to some degree, that this lady learning how to take abuse with a smile is a fit punishment for her crime.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:19 AM on December 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
We have had objects thrown at us and police have had to be called, but the abuse I and my coworkers get get is over white collar crisis shit, money, people not turning their shit in on time.
Yes! I worked in healthcare up until a few months ago and patients would threaten/yell/throw things at the receptionists. One patient called up one of my old coworkers and said they would wait for her in the parking lot, all because my coworker didn't have availabilty for a same day appointment. When I worked an after hours shift last December, a female patient assaulted the nurse on duty for simply not being called next.
posted by Kitteh at 10:10 AM on December 9, 2023
Yes! I worked in healthcare up until a few months ago and patients would threaten/yell/throw things at the receptionists. One patient called up one of my old coworkers and said they would wait for her in the parking lot, all because my coworker didn't have availabilty for a same day appointment. When I worked an after hours shift last December, a female patient assaulted the nurse on duty for simply not being called next.
posted by Kitteh at 10:10 AM on December 9, 2023
It's like dog shit.
Most people who own dogs are responsible and clean up after them. Possibly even >99% of dog owners are responsible and clean up after them.
But any place where people take dogs will be filled with dog shit from that 1%.
Out of any given day a worker might encounter hundreds of people, and if even 1% is assholes, that day is wall to wall assholes.
posted by sotonohito at 12:28 PM on December 9, 2023
Most people who own dogs are responsible and clean up after them. Possibly even >99% of dog owners are responsible and clean up after them.
But any place where people take dogs will be filled with dog shit from that 1%.
Out of any given day a worker might encounter hundreds of people, and if even 1% is assholes, that day is wall to wall assholes.
posted by sotonohito at 12:28 PM on December 9, 2023
If you knew what Parma is really like, this is much much funnier.
Yep, as a NE Ohio native, I snorted and said "Of COURSE it happened in Parma!" when I read the article.
Although, having known real housewives of Parma, I'm grateful that the judge has (for now) kept them at bay.
posted by Rykey at 12:38 PM on December 9, 2023
Yep, as a NE Ohio native, I snorted and said "Of COURSE it happened in Parma!" when I read the article.
Although, having known real housewives of Parma, I'm grateful that the judge has (for now) kept them at bay.
posted by Rykey at 12:38 PM on December 9, 2023
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posted by heyitsgogi at 1:01 PM on December 6, 2023 [2 favorites]