"The upshot is that nowhere in Gaza is safe."
December 27, 2023 9:01 AM Subscribe
"Put simply, one does not have the right to self-defence against a territory that one occupies." - Avi Shlaim writes for Prospect magazine || Jewish Currents: Israel’s “Humanitarian” Expulsion || WashPo: How Israel pushed over a million Palestinians into a tiny corner of Gaza (ungated) || NYT: Skepticism Grows Over Israel’s Ability to Dismantle Hamas || Guardian: Benjamin Netanyahu refuses to discuss postwar plan for Gaza Strip || CTV News: Israel's forces raid a West Bank refugee camp as its military expands Gaza offensive || Democracy Now: As Phone Line Breaks Up, Palestinian Journalist Akram al-Satarri Describes "Dire" Conditions in Gaza; Palestinian Christian Pastor [Rev Munther Isaac] Slams Western Silence on Genocide in Gaza & his Christmas sermon, "Christ in the Rubble"
This is FPP #4 for the current round of violence in Palestine. Previously (in reverse chronological order): Ceasefire Now; Gaza is being strangled; Hamas strikes Israel in unexpected assault
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From We Are Not Numbers, a collection of stories from Palestinians - Packing for Exile, by Abdallah Aljazzar: The Israel Occupation Forces have divided us into “blocks,” so it’s easier for them to move us around “for safety” while they bomb us. My block number is 25. I feel that this is nonsense and we will certainly end up in the Sinai Desert. They will force all of us Gazans off our land until we all reach Rafah, where it will be easy for them to force us all into exile.
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Mondoweiss: ‘Operation Al-Aqsa Flood’ Day 82: Israel accused of harvesting organs from dead Gazans
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Mairav Zonszein: After 2 months of an IDF ground operation in which the political and military echelon has talked incessantly and emphatically about how the only way to defeat Hamas is through a ground op, the IDF now says the only way to defeat Hamas is a war of attrition that takes months
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Ramy Abdu: ‼️FIELD EXECUTIONS, MASS DETENTIONS.
Alarming footage of Israeli forces turning a stadium in Gaza into a mass detention camp. The video shows the detention of hundreds of civilians, including women, elders, and BABIES.
@EuroMedHR has confirmed that the Israeli forces are carrying out field executions against civilians in Gaza after forcibly removing them from displacement centers and stripping them. (with video of the people being corralled)
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Yehuda Shaul has ongoing threads documenting the inflammatory language being used by the Israeli establishment. For example: [1] More incitement by Israeli political leaders, media, & public figures.
Calls to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, to resettle it, for collective punishment, and other vile descriptions of violence, are rife.
🧵#4 on this issue.
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War on the Rocks: Reversing America’s Ruinous Support for Israel’s Assault on Gaza
This is FPP #4 for the current round of violence in Palestine. Previously (in reverse chronological order): Ceasefire Now; Gaza is being strangled; Hamas strikes Israel in unexpected assault
-----
From We Are Not Numbers, a collection of stories from Palestinians - Packing for Exile, by Abdallah Aljazzar: The Israel Occupation Forces have divided us into “blocks,” so it’s easier for them to move us around “for safety” while they bomb us. My block number is 25. I feel that this is nonsense and we will certainly end up in the Sinai Desert. They will force all of us Gazans off our land until we all reach Rafah, where it will be easy for them to force us all into exile.
---
Mondoweiss: ‘Operation Al-Aqsa Flood’ Day 82: Israel accused of harvesting organs from dead Gazans
---
Mairav Zonszein: After 2 months of an IDF ground operation in which the political and military echelon has talked incessantly and emphatically about how the only way to defeat Hamas is through a ground op, the IDF now says the only way to defeat Hamas is a war of attrition that takes months
---
Ramy Abdu: ‼️FIELD EXECUTIONS, MASS DETENTIONS.
Alarming footage of Israeli forces turning a stadium in Gaza into a mass detention camp. The video shows the detention of hundreds of civilians, including women, elders, and BABIES.
@EuroMedHR has confirmed that the Israeli forces are carrying out field executions against civilians in Gaza after forcibly removing them from displacement centers and stripping them. (with video of the people being corralled)
---
Yehuda Shaul has ongoing threads documenting the inflammatory language being used by the Israeli establishment. For example: [1] More incitement by Israeli political leaders, media, & public figures.
Calls to ethnically cleanse the Gaza Strip, to resettle it, for collective punishment, and other vile descriptions of violence, are rife.
🧵#4 on this issue.
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War on the Rocks: Reversing America’s Ruinous Support for Israel’s Assault on Gaza
cendawanita, thanks for opening the new post!
posted by Dip Flash at 9:06 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 9:06 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
@EuroMedHR has confirmed that the Israeli forces are carrying out field executions against civilians in Gaza
I've noticed that a number of the most horrifying allegations have come from this source over the past weeks, including the claim of stealing body parts. However, so far none of those allegations seem to have been picked up or confirmed by major news organizations, at least that I've noticed.
For those more knowledgeable than myself, is this actually a credible source generally?
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I've noticed that a number of the most horrifying allegations have come from this source over the past weeks, including the claim of stealing body parts. However, so far none of those allegations seem to have been picked up or confirmed by major news organizations, at least that I've noticed.
For those more knowledgeable than myself, is this actually a credible source generally?
posted by Dip Flash at 9:10 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
In general, I find them to be in the same company as Intercept and Electronic Intifada, and they tend to share contributors. They seem to have more people still left on the ground, and so far, their earlier reports have (months) later corroborated by reporting from western portals like NYT and WashPo, but they can get triggery, so in conclusion it's always worth to wait a couple of days. Semi-related: Weird times when the Quds News Network have inched up on my radar on being slightly more on the level compared to the clearly still tankie/pro-"Axis of Resistance" accounts that now gets pushed on my tl.
posted by cendawanita at 9:16 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 9:16 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:25 AM on December 27, 2023
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 9:25 AM on December 27, 2023
For example, EI: Israeli general killed Israelis on 7 October then lied about it - Video and witness accounts recently published by Israeli media reveal new details about how Israeli forces killed their own civilians in Kibbutz Be’eri on 7 October.
Last week, Israel’s Channel 12 released previously unseen footage of an Israeli tank firing at a civilian home in the settlement, just a few miles east of Gaza.
Which is in a similar vein as this Hebrew thread (GTranslate version)
The lack of Western media-affiliated journalists is definitely an issue. In any case, Al-Jazeera: Classroom massacre: Survivors say Israel executed innocents in Gaza school
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Last week, Israel’s Channel 12 released previously unseen footage of an Israeli tank firing at a civilian home in the settlement, just a few miles east of Gaza.
Which is in a similar vein as this Hebrew thread (GTranslate version)
The lack of Western media-affiliated journalists is definitely an issue. In any case, Al-Jazeera: Classroom massacre: Survivors say Israel executed innocents in Gaza school
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thank you for posting this new FPP
posted by kensington314 at 9:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 9:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The reason for lack of broad sources for news is that something like 70 journalists have been killed since this started just in Gaza.
posted by hippybear at 9:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [61 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 9:41 AM on December 27, 2023 [61 favorites]
including the claim of stealing body parts
The "stealing body parts" claim is an old propaganda piece. A hospital doctor was transplanting tissue from corpses--both Israeli and Palestinian--without consent from the "donors" years ago. Supposedly the practice ended when word got out. I haven't heard a more recent update than that.
posted by lock robster at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
The "stealing body parts" claim is an old propaganda piece. A hospital doctor was transplanting tissue from corpses--both Israeli and Palestinian--without consent from the "donors" years ago. Supposedly the practice ended when word got out. I haven't heard a more recent update than that.
posted by lock robster at 10:01 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm simultaneously fascinated and horrified by this war. I don't think there's any doubt that Hamas has to go for any lasting peace to be achieved. But Israel's use of massive ordinances and AI targeting systems has just been grotesque to watch. I hope with more people understanding how wars are actually fought--that usually it's civilians who suffer--there will be a pause before people immediately jump on the military bandwagon. War is the worst thing humans do to each other.
posted by lock robster at 10:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by lock robster at 10:05 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Per link shared in previous FPP and also the liveblog above: On Tuesday, Israel handed over 80 Palestinian bodies to authorities in Gaza at the Karam Abu Salem border crossing.
Upon further investigation, the Gaza media office accused Israel of stealing organs from the deceased bodies, whose identities remain unknown. According to Hamas, the bodies were taken “from different areas of the Gaza Strip.”
“The media office denounces in the strongest terms the Israeli occupation army’s disdain for the dignity of the bodies of our 80 martyrs that Israel had stolen during its genocidal war because it delivered them mutilated,” a statement said.
“After examining the bodies, it is clear that the features of those killed had changed greatly in a clear indication that the Israeli occupation had stolen vital organs from them,” the statement continued.
The office, who is calling for an independent international investigation, also highlighted that this is not the first time Israel has “mutilated” Palestinian bodies in Gaza.
“Israel has previously exhumed graves in Jabalia and stole some of the bodies in addition to the fact that it still has dozens of bodies from the Gaza Strip in its possession,” it said.
Israel has also admitted that their pathologists in the past have harvested organs from dead Palestinians and others without the consent of their families.
Which part is the propaganda, wallahualam. Bodies are missing though.
posted by cendawanita at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Upon further investigation, the Gaza media office accused Israel of stealing organs from the deceased bodies, whose identities remain unknown. According to Hamas, the bodies were taken “from different areas of the Gaza Strip.”
“The media office denounces in the strongest terms the Israeli occupation army’s disdain for the dignity of the bodies of our 80 martyrs that Israel had stolen during its genocidal war because it delivered them mutilated,” a statement said.
“After examining the bodies, it is clear that the features of those killed had changed greatly in a clear indication that the Israeli occupation had stolen vital organs from them,” the statement continued.
The office, who is calling for an independent international investigation, also highlighted that this is not the first time Israel has “mutilated” Palestinian bodies in Gaza.
“Israel has previously exhumed graves in Jabalia and stole some of the bodies in addition to the fact that it still has dozens of bodies from the Gaza Strip in its possession,” it said.
Israel has also admitted that their pathologists in the past have harvested organs from dead Palestinians and others without the consent of their families.
Which part is the propaganda, wallahualam. Bodies are missing though.
posted by cendawanita at 10:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Re: I've noticed that a number of the most horrifying allegations have come from this source over the past weeks, including the claim of stealing body parts. However, so far none of those allegations seem to have been picked up or confirmed by major news organizations, at least that I've noticed.
Which is about the tweet with the video - Sky News: The groups walk to the centre of the pitch, wearing only boxer shorts, and stand in short lines of about four or five people each.
Some hold their hands in the air or over their heads.
Sky News has geolocated this video to the Yarmouk Stadium in Gaza City, but cannot verify when it was filmed or what happened to the detainees.
The Israel Defence Forces has not denied the video is authentic.
Responding to Sky News, the IDF said it is operating to "dismantle Hamas's military capabilities" - and as part of its efforts, suspected terrorists are detained and questioned.
"Individuals who are found not to be taking part in terrorist activities are released," the IDF said.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Which is about the tweet with the video - Sky News: The groups walk to the centre of the pitch, wearing only boxer shorts, and stand in short lines of about four or five people each.
Some hold their hands in the air or over their heads.
Sky News has geolocated this video to the Yarmouk Stadium in Gaza City, but cannot verify when it was filmed or what happened to the detainees.
The Israel Defence Forces has not denied the video is authentic.
Responding to Sky News, the IDF said it is operating to "dismantle Hamas's military capabilities" - and as part of its efforts, suspected terrorists are detained and questioned.
"Individuals who are found not to be taking part in terrorist activities are released," the IDF said.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a lot of evidence on this (organ harvesting) from a couple of months ago including an interview of a doctor who'd done it herself
posted by infini at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by infini at 10:30 AM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
BBC, today: Israel expanding ground offensive into central Gaza refugee camps
Palestinian media cited local officials and witnesses as saying dozens of civilians were killed as Israel kept up its strikes across Gaza overnight.
Heavy bombardment was reported in the Middle Area, particularly in Bureij, Maghazi and Nuseirat camps.
In Nuseirat, Israeli warplanes targeted the homes of the Nasser and Hazouqi families, killing a number of people and wounding dozens more, according to the official Wafa news agency.
Hamas-affiliated Safa news agency also reported that five had been killed in a strike on a girls school in Maghazi.
Residents meanwhile told Reuters news agency that there was heavy fighting east and north of Bureij district and in the nearby village of Juhr al-Deek.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:31 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Palestinian media cited local officials and witnesses as saying dozens of civilians were killed as Israel kept up its strikes across Gaza overnight.
Heavy bombardment was reported in the Middle Area, particularly in Bureij, Maghazi and Nuseirat camps.
In Nuseirat, Israeli warplanes targeted the homes of the Nasser and Hazouqi families, killing a number of people and wounding dozens more, according to the official Wafa news agency.
Hamas-affiliated Safa news agency also reported that five had been killed in a strike on a girls school in Maghazi.
Residents meanwhile told Reuters news agency that there was heavy fighting east and north of Bureij district and in the nearby village of Juhr al-Deek.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:31 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can we not on the stealing body parts thing? It is without verification from an independent source (that is, a UN agency or humanitarian org not part of either government) just heresy and likely propaganda. It doesn’t even make sense as a thing to do because there’s no benefit to it: most medical reasons to use organs or tissue don’t make sense so why would it be happening? So let’s just … not? It’s way too close to the blood libel conspiracy.
otoh it’s pretty clear from other reports — such as the poet Mosab Abu Toha — that in the chaotic way the IDF is treating “detained” Palestinians that it would be easy for bodies to go missing were someone to die in custody or even while clearing rubble. Sadly. It still seems problematic to spread info claiming there is some intentional program by the IDF to do this other than lack of competence and care — the latter abundantly clearly the case given everything going on.
posted by R343L at 10:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [27 favorites]
otoh it’s pretty clear from other reports — such as the poet Mosab Abu Toha — that in the chaotic way the IDF is treating “detained” Palestinians that it would be easy for bodies to go missing were someone to die in custody or even while clearing rubble. Sadly. It still seems problematic to spread info claiming there is some intentional program by the IDF to do this other than lack of competence and care — the latter abundantly clearly the case given everything going on.
posted by R343L at 10:33 AM on December 27, 2023 [27 favorites]
even while clearing rubble.
I will try harder to make sure the reports at least have testimonials attached to it, but just to note for the thread, news I've shared aren't about administrative or operator error. Actual cemeteries have been desecrated. Israel still maintains colonial british practice of detaining bodies for years at a time. I do agree there is no sane reason to steal or harvest bodies.
posted by cendawanita at 10:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I will try harder to make sure the reports at least have testimonials attached to it, but just to note for the thread, news I've shared aren't about administrative or operator error. Actual cemeteries have been desecrated. Israel still maintains colonial british practice of detaining bodies for years at a time. I do agree there is no sane reason to steal or harvest bodies.
posted by cendawanita at 10:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
Conveniently: Israel denies visas to UN staff as it hits back against Gaza war criticism - Israel will not renew the visa of a United Nations staff member in the country and will also deny the visa request of another UN employee as the country yet again expresses its displeasure of the global body, which has criticised Israel’s targeting of civilians and hospitals during the Gaza war. An overwhelming majority of the more than 20,000 Palestinians killed are civilians.
“We will stop working with those who cooperate with the Hamas terrorist organization’s propaganda,” Eli Cohen, Israel’s minister of foreign affairs, posted on X on Monday.
There's been a pattern of Hamas collaborator accusations in the last 2.5 months levied against international organizations.
posted by cendawanita at 10:50 AM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
“We will stop working with those who cooperate with the Hamas terrorist organization’s propaganda,” Eli Cohen, Israel’s minister of foreign affairs, posted on X on Monday.
There's been a pattern of Hamas collaborator accusations in the last 2.5 months levied against international organizations.
posted by cendawanita at 10:50 AM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
Stepping into this discussion is risky territory, but I can't understand how this one-sided war can continue. The UN says that as many civilians (~13k) have died in Gaza in three months as have died in Ukraine in 2 years. That's psychopathic!
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:07 AM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
I mean, that's easy enough to rationalize, right? All you have to do is declare that everyone who is located on that side of the border -- Hamas leadership, Hamas operatives, people who voted for Hamas, people who didn't vote for Hamas, doctors, aid workers, journalists, whoever -- is a collaborator and a valid military target.
Then you just have to convince the United States government to agree with you on that.
Israel is 2-for-2 there so far.
posted by delfin at 11:26 AM on December 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
Then you just have to convince the United States government to agree with you on that.
Israel is 2-for-2 there so far.
posted by delfin at 11:26 AM on December 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
I am concerned about the possibility of maybe 1 million people entering stages of actual starvation in the next 2-3 weeks, and exactly how the world will handle watching Israel create that crisis out of choice.
posted by hippybear at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 11:29 AM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
All you have to do is declare that everyone who is located on that side of the border -- is a collaborator and a valid military target.
I get that feeling too, but even if I ignore that psychopathy, where does that thinking lead Israel (and the US)? Do they continue until everyone in the Gaza Strip is dead? What percentage of the 2 million residents have to be killed before their revenge is satisfied?
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I get that feeling too, but even if I ignore that psychopathy, where does that thinking lead Israel (and the US)? Do they continue until everyone in the Gaza Strip is dead? What percentage of the 2 million residents have to be killed before their revenge is satisfied?
posted by Popular Ethics at 11:42 AM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't get the feeling anyone in power is doing much real thinking about where this leads, beyond their immediate political problems.
Cursed that this is happening during the run-up to a US Presidential election that should have nothing to do with it (ideally).
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Cursed that this is happening during the run-up to a US Presidential election that should have nothing to do with it (ideally).
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:44 AM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
.
posted by mxjudyliza at 11:57 AM on December 27, 2023
posted by mxjudyliza at 11:57 AM on December 27, 2023
Cursed that this is happening during the run-up to a US Presidential election that should have nothing to do with it (ideally).
I think lots of people are thinking very hard about it, and that it is happening now specifically because of the U.S. election. Hamas has an excellent relationship with Russia and Putin, and Putin's willingness to create the occasional catastrophic humanitarian crisis to advance his policy goals is well documented.
posted by mhoye at 12:04 PM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think lots of people are thinking very hard about it, and that it is happening now specifically because of the U.S. election. Hamas has an excellent relationship with Russia and Putin, and Putin's willingness to create the occasional catastrophic humanitarian crisis to advance his policy goals is well documented.
posted by mhoye at 12:04 PM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:18 PM on December 27, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:18 PM on December 27, 2023
Do they continue until everyone in the Gaza Strip is dead? What percentage of the 2 million residents have to be killed before their revenge is satisfied?
Practically speaking, Israeli state policy - which has the overwhelming support of Israelis, to all reports - is that victory is a complete displacement of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and that territory claimed by Israel. Where those 2.3 million people end up and in what condition is irrelevant to the people creating and enforcing that policy.
posted by mhoye at 12:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
Practically speaking, Israeli state policy - which has the overwhelming support of Israelis, to all reports - is that victory is a complete displacement of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and that territory claimed by Israel. Where those 2.3 million people end up and in what condition is irrelevant to the people creating and enforcing that policy.
posted by mhoye at 12:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
I think lots of people are thinking very hard about it, and that it is happening now specifically because of the U.S. election. Hamas has an excellent relationship with Russia and Putin, and Putin's willingness to create the occasional catastrophic humanitarian crisis to advance his policy goals is well documented.
Dastardly Putin, getting the Biden administration to happily fund Israel's continuing humanitarian abuses in Gaza in the face of public opposition and international opprobrium!
posted by Gadarene at 12:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
Dastardly Putin, getting the Biden administration to happily fund Israel's continuing humanitarian abuses in Gaza in the face of public opposition and international opprobrium!
posted by Gadarene at 12:40 PM on December 27, 2023 [43 favorites]
I think lots of people are thinking very hard about it, and that it is happening now specifically because of the U.S. election. Hamas has an excellent relationship with Russia and Putin, and Putin's willingness to create the occasional catastrophic humanitarian crisis to advance his policy goals is well documented.
posted by mhoye at 12:04 PM on December 27
Come on man.
posted by youthenrage at 12:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 12:04 PM on December 27
Come on man.
posted by youthenrage at 12:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
Practically speaking, Israeli state policy - which has the overwhelming support of Israelis, to all reports
No, I don't think so. My brother just came back from three weeks volunteering (on a farm and other things) in Israel and this is not true of most Israelis he spoke to. I'm sure it's true of some, but "overwhelming support" is not accurate. They want to be rid of Netanyahu, they are heartsick, grieving, traumatized, and do not support the massacre of civilians.
posted by Glinn at 1:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [42 favorites]
No, I don't think so. My brother just came back from three weeks volunteering (on a farm and other things) in Israel and this is not true of most Israelis he spoke to. I'm sure it's true of some, but "overwhelming support" is not accurate. They want to be rid of Netanyahu, they are heartsick, grieving, traumatized, and do not support the massacre of civilians.
posted by Glinn at 1:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [42 favorites]
I also have not seen "overwhelming support of Israelis" on display at all to what is going on. They wanted rid of Bibi even before this whole thing began, and his machinations to bend the government toward his singular rule is the distraction that allowed this Hamas attack to happen in the first place.
I'd love to hear more from within the country itself, but all the reporting I've seen from the outside have been the population of Israel is a bit horrified at what is being carried out in their name, and more than a lot outraged at how all of this is being handled.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'd love to hear more from within the country itself, but all the reporting I've seen from the outside have been the population of Israel is a bit horrified at what is being carried out in their name, and more than a lot outraged at how all of this is being handled.
posted by hippybear at 1:07 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
Do they continue until everyone in the Gaza Strip is dead? What percentage of the 2 million residents have to be killed before their revenge is satisfied?
Netanyahu penned an op-ed in the WSJ this weekend, stating flatly what will be required in its opening paragraph:
"Hamas must be destroyed, Gaza must be demilitarized, and Palestinian society must be deradicalized. These are the three prerequisites for peace between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors in Gaza."
Short of literally bombing the entire population into utter submission, good luck with any of the three being possible.
I do not doubt that there are many Israelis who are horrified by their government's actions, just as there are many Americans who are horrified by their government's enthusiasm in propping Israel's actions up. I also do not see very much that either group can do that will change things for the better.
posted by delfin at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Netanyahu penned an op-ed in the WSJ this weekend, stating flatly what will be required in its opening paragraph:
"Hamas must be destroyed, Gaza must be demilitarized, and Palestinian society must be deradicalized. These are the three prerequisites for peace between Israel and its Palestinian neighbors in Gaza."
Short of literally bombing the entire population into utter submission, good luck with any of the three being possible.
I do not doubt that there are many Israelis who are horrified by their government's actions, just as there are many Americans who are horrified by their government's enthusiasm in propping Israel's actions up. I also do not see very much that either group can do that will change things for the better.
posted by delfin at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think lots of people are thinking very hard about it, and that it is happening now specifically because of the U.S. election. Hamas has an excellent relationship with Russia and Putin, and Putin's willingness to create the occasional catastrophic humanitarian crisis to advance his policy goals is well documented.
Yes, it's Putin that created the humanitarian crisis. Israel and its allies have absolutely no culpability--they are simply helpless victims who were left with no options but ethnic cleansing and genocide.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
Yes, it's Putin that created the humanitarian crisis. Israel and its allies have absolutely no culpability--they are simply helpless victims who were left with no options but ethnic cleansing and genocide.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:09 PM on December 27, 2023 [26 favorites]
We could maybe not do this? It is entirely possible for Putin to be good at manipulating world events in ways where different actors are making choices that benefit Putin but are still making their own choices.
Russia has interfered in US elections in the past and is interfering in our upcoming election right now. Nobody believes the US population are puppets of Putin and Russia's plans, but it is very obvious that they attempt to exert influence around the world.
Let's be both not naive about their work to create chaos around the planet because they use it to their benefit, and not insulting toward people when they try to address this influence in a way that contains nuance.
posted by hippybear at 1:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Russia has interfered in US elections in the past and is interfering in our upcoming election right now. Nobody believes the US population are puppets of Putin and Russia's plans, but it is very obvious that they attempt to exert influence around the world.
Let's be both not naive about their work to create chaos around the planet because they use it to their benefit, and not insulting toward people when they try to address this influence in a way that contains nuance.
posted by hippybear at 1:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Let's be both not naive about their work to create chaos around the planet because they use it to their benefit, and not insulting toward people when they try to address this influence in a way that contains nuance.
Surely, "Putin has timed Israel's genocide of Palestine to coincide with the US election" requires at least a credible link if we're to consider an effort at good faith discourse.
posted by kensington314 at 1:42 PM on December 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
Surely, "Putin has timed Israel's genocide of Palestine to coincide with the US election" requires at least a credible link if we're to consider an effort at good faith discourse.
posted by kensington314 at 1:42 PM on December 27, 2023 [23 favorites]
I suppose maybe "innocent until proven guilty" has a place in a lot of discourse, but I'm really not sure what part of your experience in the world of the 21st Century has led to to not believe that perhaps it's okay to assume guilt on the part of Putin and his army working to destabilize the world.
Did you read The Muller Report?
I did. And I assure you, there is more than enough evidence even in the redacted version to lead you to believe that Russia works actively to destabilize our election process, because Russia thrives on chaos.
I'm much more likely to presuppose that Putin had even a tiny little lever he pushed on that he hoped 12 months ago might lead to this attack happening at a vulnerable time for the US election cycle.
I do have a copy of The Muller Report I can send to you -- I bought the physical copy and also have the audiobook which I could also send you. Either, I'll pay postage if you want the actual print book. I mean, that's maybe the best actual deep investigation we have into how Russia works in extranational politics. And while it isn't about Israel, it is about a society we are much more familiar with.
Maybe parallels can be drawn between the kinds of influence operations being done by Russia what is approaching a decade ago across a gigantic global superpower and how they might apply similar, even better developed strategies against a very tiny country with a government that is undergoing an internal takeover struggle? Or maybe not...
If I really need to start digging deeply into all the sources for all the various things I've been digesting that say "Russia is interfering all over the world" and linking sources, I can do that, but I do suggest that it doesn't take much of a deep search by you, the reader, to provide your own links.
posted by hippybear at 1:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Did you read The Muller Report?
I did. And I assure you, there is more than enough evidence even in the redacted version to lead you to believe that Russia works actively to destabilize our election process, because Russia thrives on chaos.
I'm much more likely to presuppose that Putin had even a tiny little lever he pushed on that he hoped 12 months ago might lead to this attack happening at a vulnerable time for the US election cycle.
I do have a copy of The Muller Report I can send to you -- I bought the physical copy and also have the audiobook which I could also send you. Either, I'll pay postage if you want the actual print book. I mean, that's maybe the best actual deep investigation we have into how Russia works in extranational politics. And while it isn't about Israel, it is about a society we are much more familiar with.
Maybe parallels can be drawn between the kinds of influence operations being done by Russia what is approaching a decade ago across a gigantic global superpower and how they might apply similar, even better developed strategies against a very tiny country with a government that is undergoing an internal takeover struggle? Or maybe not...
If I really need to start digging deeply into all the sources for all the various things I've been digesting that say "Russia is interfering all over the world" and linking sources, I can do that, but I do suggest that it doesn't take much of a deep search by you, the reader, to provide your own links.
posted by hippybear at 1:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
'Russia's Putin tries to use Gaza war to his geopolitical advantage.'
"Russian President Vladimir Putin waited three days before commenting on Hamas' massacre of Israelis, which happened to take place on his 71st birthday. When he did, he blamed the United States, not Hamas....Putin, say Russian and Western policy experts, is trying to use Israel's war against Hamas to escalate what he has cast as an existential battle with the West for a new world order that would end U.S. dominance in favour of a multilateral system he believes is already taking shape"
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Russian President Vladimir Putin waited three days before commenting on Hamas' massacre of Israelis, which happened to take place on his 71st birthday. When he did, he blamed the United States, not Hamas....Putin, say Russian and Western policy experts, is trying to use Israel's war against Hamas to escalate what he has cast as an existential battle with the West for a new world order that would end U.S. dominance in favour of a multilateral system he believes is already taking shape"
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the objection to this train of thought is that its centering the discussion around the geopolitical and local political effects on the USA.
Wait, I know that's the objection, because I'm raising it.
posted by Jarcat at 2:24 PM on December 27, 2023 [47 favorites]
Wait, I know that's the objection, because I'm raising it.
posted by Jarcat at 2:24 PM on December 27, 2023 [47 favorites]
I didn't see this in the previous thread so thought I'd post it. It is an interesting read.
Jewish American pro-Palestine politics has shifted noticeably since the Second Intifada of 2000. Today’s JVP are intent on operating within, and accountable to a broader Palestinian-led movement, and have shaped their organizing strategies accordingly. Another way of putting it: they’re catching up to the politics of what Palestine liberation itself has been saying forever, most dramatically since the 1960s: that this is a struggle of an indigenous people against Israeli/US colonial domination, not a “conflict” between two effectively equal parties. This is a big shift from the liberal paradigm of the 1990s, in which many of us American Jews were raised: the two-state “peace” model, may it rest in peace, which routinely posited a movement led entirely by Jewish liberals in alliance with the Israeli labor left, and built on the premise of “liberal Zionism,” a still rather strident Israeli-nationalist political idea, and ultimately on terms most suited to it.
posted by kensington314 at 2:45 PM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
Jewish American pro-Palestine politics has shifted noticeably since the Second Intifada of 2000. Today’s JVP are intent on operating within, and accountable to a broader Palestinian-led movement, and have shaped their organizing strategies accordingly. Another way of putting it: they’re catching up to the politics of what Palestine liberation itself has been saying forever, most dramatically since the 1960s: that this is a struggle of an indigenous people against Israeli/US colonial domination, not a “conflict” between two effectively equal parties. This is a big shift from the liberal paradigm of the 1990s, in which many of us American Jews were raised: the two-state “peace” model, may it rest in peace, which routinely posited a movement led entirely by Jewish liberals in alliance with the Israeli labor left, and built on the premise of “liberal Zionism,” a still rather strident Israeli-nationalist political idea, and ultimately on terms most suited to it.
posted by kensington314 at 2:45 PM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
How the Israel-Hamas War in Gaza Is Changing Arab Views.
'The Hamas-Israel Conflict: How to Resolve a "Battle without Winners"?'
'An Unusual and Serious Conflict'
"Third, the fighting between Hamas and Israel has destabilized not only Gaza and Israel, but also the surrounding region and the international community at large."
"The conflict that initially erupted between Israel and Gaza Strip has spread to the Palestinian West Bank, where Israeli forces have carried out attacks on Palestinians, resulting in deaths and injuries[12]. Hezbollah in Lebanon[13] and the Houthis in Yemen have announced counterattacks against Israel, and the fighting may spread to other areas[14]. In the Middle East and Africa, demonstrations against Israel have erupted in many places[15]. In the U.S. and U.K., in addition to protests against Israel, persecution against Jews has occurred, leading to school closures at some U.S. universities[16].
The clashes between Hamas and Israel have already caused irreparable human and material damage in Gaza, but they have also created a decisive division in the relationship between Israel and its neighbors, as well as between the West and the rest of the world[17]. Unless the situation is quickly brought under control, this incident could have serious repercussions for the world."
posted by clavdivs at 2:51 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
'The Hamas-Israel Conflict: How to Resolve a "Battle without Winners"?'
'An Unusual and Serious Conflict'
"Third, the fighting between Hamas and Israel has destabilized not only Gaza and Israel, but also the surrounding region and the international community at large."
"The conflict that initially erupted between Israel and Gaza Strip has spread to the Palestinian West Bank, where Israeli forces have carried out attacks on Palestinians, resulting in deaths and injuries[12]. Hezbollah in Lebanon[13] and the Houthis in Yemen have announced counterattacks against Israel, and the fighting may spread to other areas[14]. In the Middle East and Africa, demonstrations against Israel have erupted in many places[15]. In the U.S. and U.K., in addition to protests against Israel, persecution against Jews has occurred, leading to school closures at some U.S. universities[16].
The clashes between Hamas and Israel have already caused irreparable human and material damage in Gaza, but they have also created a decisive division in the relationship between Israel and its neighbors, as well as between the West and the rest of the world[17]. Unless the situation is quickly brought under control, this incident could have serious repercussions for the world."
posted by clavdivs at 2:51 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t know enough about Hamas, but if they are funded in part by Russia, then sure, it’s believable that Putin encouraged them to do the Oct. 7 attacks. And maybe he is smart enough to have assessed that not only would a disproportionate response from Netanyahu be likely, but that the US would support Israel in that. I’m not sure anyone expected Israel’s response to be quite as long and quite so clearly genocidal as it has been, however, so it seems less likely to me that sowing chaos in the run-up to the US election would have been Putin’s main motivation, if so. I’m sure he’s quite pleased that this has been an outcome, but it seems to me that a much more likely potential motive would be to take attention and resources away from Ukraine. Again, if Putin’s government had some role in aiding Hamas’ planning (not just providing general funding as a general, ongoing investment in regional political instability).
posted by eviemath at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 2:54 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
This ugly, criminal response by Netanyahu was so easy to see coming. I’ve been a big Biden supporter (best president in my lifetime!), but it’s unforgivable that his admin has signaled to Netanyahu that as far as they’re concerned he has carte Blanche.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:58 PM on December 27, 2023 [21 favorites]
The derail into Putin is mystifying except if you wish to deflect criticism away from Netanyahu. Which is precisely what Netanyahu would like, particularly if he is trying to maximize political support for Israel (and of course military funding) in the US. I support Palestinians, I support Israel's right to exist, I do not support Hamas or what they did but I also do not support flat out genocide for a people who have been oppressed for generations.
posted by bluesky43 at 3:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by bluesky43 at 3:03 PM on December 27, 2023 [20 favorites]
Bibi is a real problem here.
posted by hippybear at 3:08 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 3:08 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Bibi is a real problem, so is telling a man like him there are no red lines and there will never be strings attached.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 3:13 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 3:13 PM on December 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
In fact, Moscow’s vocal support for Hamas has led to a rapid deterioration in Russian ties with Israel of late.
As per Carnegie: "Russia is leading UN condemnation of Israel’s military actions in Gaza, with its representative Vasily Nebenzya questioning Israel’s right to defend itself as an “occupier.” In turn, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, denounced Russia for using the Hamas attack “to distract the world’s attention from the invasion of Ukraine,” and called Russia “the last country” that could teach Israel about morality."
I don't think this catastrophe in particular can be blamed on Putin, although as always he'll make use of it to advance his goals as far as he's able.
posted by rosiroo at 3:45 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
As per Carnegie: "Russia is leading UN condemnation of Israel’s military actions in Gaza, with its representative Vasily Nebenzya questioning Israel’s right to defend itself as an “occupier.” In turn, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, Gilad Erdan, denounced Russia for using the Hamas attack “to distract the world’s attention from the invasion of Ukraine,” and called Russia “the last country” that could teach Israel about morality."
I don't think this catastrophe in particular can be blamed on Putin, although as always he'll make use of it to advance his goals as far as he's able.
posted by rosiroo at 3:45 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am very disappointed to see people here defending the genocide and colonization of Palestine by zionists. This struggle has been going on for 75 years and the clear aggressors are zionists. Palestinians are semites so the anti-semite smoke screen really doesn't work. Blaming Putin for what started so long ago is also a non- starter, just as saying october 7 started anything except for excuses to take yet more land from Palestine while massacring the people.
Native Americans come to mind.
But the war machine really makes the stock market go up!
What a miserable fucking world.
posted by nofundy at 3:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Native Americans come to mind.
But the war machine really makes the stock market go up!
What a miserable fucking world.
posted by nofundy at 3:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Palestinians are semites so the anti-semite smoke screen really doesn't work
I’m as pro Palestine as they come but don’t fool yourself into thinking we are all idiots and that Maltese people can’t hate Jews because the three root system in their language. C’mon
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [40 favorites]
I’m as pro Palestine as they come but don’t fool yourself into thinking we are all idiots and that Maltese people can’t hate Jews because the three root system in their language. C’mon
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [40 favorites]
Whether or not there is organ theft (and i do wholeheartedly agree that that particular allegation is close enough to old-fashioned blood libel that we should be very cautious with it in the absence of solid confirmation), it is absolutely the case that Israel deliberately and routinely misuses and abuses the bodies of Palestinian dead in many, many ways, and has done so since its inception as a state.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:13 PM on December 27, 2023 [13 favorites]
I am very disappointed to see people here defending the genocide and colonization of Palestine by zionists. This struggle has been going on for 75 years and the clear aggressors are zionists.
The struggle has been going on for far longer than that, and the "Zionists" are the "clear aggressors" if you choose to ignore a substantial portion of what happened before 1947/1948, and also ignore a significant portion of what came after. Much of the newly-declared state's population growth after 1947 was a knowing and violent population transfer, with regional Arab states expelling their Jewish populations, en masse, to Israel, robbing them of all of their property in the process. They did this with the full knowledge that those people would be displacing Palestinian Arabs when they arrived. For some reason, reductive versions of what happened on Israel's founding never seem to mention this, or that nearly 70% of Israeli Jews are descendants of those refugees from MENA countries.
Not for nothing, but pretending not to understand what "anti-Semitism" means, a term coined in Germany specifically to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment, is not an argument.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
The struggle has been going on for far longer than that, and the "Zionists" are the "clear aggressors" if you choose to ignore a substantial portion of what happened before 1947/1948, and also ignore a significant portion of what came after. Much of the newly-declared state's population growth after 1947 was a knowing and violent population transfer, with regional Arab states expelling their Jewish populations, en masse, to Israel, robbing them of all of their property in the process. They did this with the full knowledge that those people would be displacing Palestinian Arabs when they arrived. For some reason, reductive versions of what happened on Israel's founding never seem to mention this, or that nearly 70% of Israeli Jews are descendants of those refugees from MENA countries.
Not for nothing, but pretending not to understand what "anti-Semitism" means, a term coined in Germany specifically to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment, is not an argument.
posted by 1adam12 at 4:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
The derail into Putin is mystifying except if you wish to deflect criticism away from Netanyahu.
That was not at all my intention, and there is plenty of criticism of to justly go around here.
posted by mhoye at 4:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was not at all my intention, and there is plenty of criticism of to justly go around here.
posted by mhoye at 4:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Blaming Putin for what started so long ago is also a non- starter, just as saying october 7 started anything except for excuses to take yet more land from Palestine while massacring the people.
Putin is benefiting hugely and is laughing his ass off, but I agree, blaming him for starting it is a weird take. But dismissing the impact of the Oct 7 attacks is also a weird take. That scale of deaths in a small country is always going to be a turning point.
But in parallel to that, it would take only a very little empathy on the part of Netanyahu et. al to realize that Gaza is an even smaller society, and so thousands of deaths there are also going to be a watershed/turning point. Netanyahu and his cabinet aren't stupid (evil, but not stupid) and they have to know that this won't lead to anything good. But they also know that stopping the war probably means getting kicked out of office, so there seems to be an irresistible momentum to continuing, damn the consequences.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:19 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Putin is benefiting hugely and is laughing his ass off, but I agree, blaming him for starting it is a weird take. But dismissing the impact of the Oct 7 attacks is also a weird take. That scale of deaths in a small country is always going to be a turning point.
But in parallel to that, it would take only a very little empathy on the part of Netanyahu et. al to realize that Gaza is an even smaller society, and so thousands of deaths there are also going to be a watershed/turning point. Netanyahu and his cabinet aren't stupid (evil, but not stupid) and they have to know that this won't lead to anything good. But they also know that stopping the war probably means getting kicked out of office, so there seems to be an irresistible momentum to continuing, damn the consequences.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:19 PM on December 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Towards the “this has been going on a long time” position — which I think is true — this discussion between Naomi Klein and David Naimon on current events and the Jewish parts of Klein’s recently published Doppelganger is so very good. I am just about done with this one and it may have been linked in a previous thread (the podcast episode came out a few weeks ago) and it really situates the current push (especially in the US, Canada and Europe — the major historical colonial powers) to label any criticism of israel as anti-semitism as part of a broader ideological conflict over remembrance of history and the ongoing (before and after the Holocaust) problems of colonialism and how that interacts with both anti-semitism and struggles against it.
posted by R343L at 4:49 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by R343L at 4:49 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
The struggle has been going on for far longer than that, and the "Zionists" are the "clear aggressors" if you choose to ignore a substantial portion of what happened before 1947/1948, and also ignore a significant portion of what came after. Much of the newly-declared state's population
This thread and the current war are about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not the Arab-Israeli conflict. You’re not going to find many defenses of Arab states here. And lumping all Arabs together is, you guessed it, racist. There is no world where the Palestinians were the aggressors as they were being colonized. It’s nonsense.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [37 favorites]
This thread and the current war are about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not the Arab-Israeli conflict. You’re not going to find many defenses of Arab states here. And lumping all Arabs together is, you guessed it, racist. There is no world where the Palestinians were the aggressors as they were being colonized. It’s nonsense.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [37 favorites]
I usually treat the Ardent Progressive treatment of the Democratic Party as the real enemy with the respect it deserves, but Israel/Palestine is one of the few places where I'm like, yeah, you're right, the party is hopelessly bought and paid for, here.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:00 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 5:00 PM on December 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Difficult to see how this ends well, for either side, or even just ends.
posted by Pouteria at 5:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Pouteria at 5:12 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
The derail into Putin is mystifying except if you wish to deflect criticism away from Netanyahu.
Look, it's really important that we understand that geopolitical events can be complex *and* that it doesn't take the blame away from individuals who are making terrible and murderous choices.
I think it's entirely possible that Putin both helped the Oct 7 attacks be more devastating, and helped use his intelligence apparatus to ensure that Israel dismissed them in advance; specifically because he knew the likely result would be that Israel would overreact, the US would support them, and it would lower the US's influence and moral high ground re: Ukraine. Could he have predicted the degree to which Israel would act? Probably not precisely, but within a spectrum of responses, yes.
Does that absolve Netanyahu? Absolutely not. In no way does it absolve Netanyahu (or Biden). But it's useful to understand actors and why they're making the choices they are making.
posted by corb at 5:25 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Look, it's really important that we understand that geopolitical events can be complex *and* that it doesn't take the blame away from individuals who are making terrible and murderous choices.
I think it's entirely possible that Putin both helped the Oct 7 attacks be more devastating, and helped use his intelligence apparatus to ensure that Israel dismissed them in advance; specifically because he knew the likely result would be that Israel would overreact, the US would support them, and it would lower the US's influence and moral high ground re: Ukraine. Could he have predicted the degree to which Israel would act? Probably not precisely, but within a spectrum of responses, yes.
Does that absolve Netanyahu? Absolutely not. In no way does it absolve Netanyahu (or Biden). But it's useful to understand actors and why they're making the choices they are making.
posted by corb at 5:25 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Thanks cendawandita for posting this. I don’t have much to say but I always read these.
posted by rednikki at 6:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by rednikki at 6:46 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is a crazy-making war. I avoid all news about it, while I read at least a half hour of Ukraine news every day. Bibi has been a known criminal for decades. I don't know anything about Hamas, but Arab friends say they're mobsters acting like a terrorist group ( happy to read facts to the contrary). Now Bibi, Putin and Hamas appear to have decided to prop one another up at the expense of their own peoples and the entire world. Peace and love to almost all Israelis, almost all Palestinians and almost all Russians. The Bibi, Putin and Hamas crowd can take Elon Musk's rockets and duke it out by themselves on Mars. Europe and North America lose international credibility when they condemn Russia for war crimes and then supply the means and support to Bibi and his depraved band of authoritarians to commit war crimes against Palestinians. Not in our name! Never again!
posted by SnowRottie at 6:52 PM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by SnowRottie at 6:52 PM on December 27, 2023 [16 favorites]
This ugly, criminal response by Netanyahu was so easy to see coming.
Yes. In fact it's pretty clear that Hamas perpetrated the Oct. 7 attacks specifically to provoke this response. It's much like what Al Qaeda did on 9/11: Commit an outrageous, shocking terror attack on a powerful state in order to trigger a blind, rageful, oversized reaction. It worked that time too.
That's not to say Bibi or the IDF have no agency or responsibility here. But there's no way Hamas didn't want something like this to happen. They view Palestinian lives as pawns in a power game, and are perfectly happy to sacrifice thousands to gain more power and popularity. It's an age-old page out of the insurgent playbook.
I’ve been a big Biden supporter (best president in my lifetime!), but it’s unforgivable that his admin has signaled to Netanyahu that as far as they’re concerned he has carte Blanche.
My read on Biden (based on what he himself has said in interviews) is that as a rule, he believes in calling people in, rather than calling them out. E.g., his delicate handling of Joe Manchin that got the latter to sign some massive, amazingly progressive legislative packages... instead of publicly threatening Manchin, as many progressives wanted him to.
Biden's initial strategy after Oct. 7 was to state his strong support for Israel, and privately caution Netanyahu against overreach. He maintained this position longer than many people wanted him to, but it did result, temporarily, in an unofficial ceasefire.
Biden and others in the administration have since shifted to more open criticism of the scope of Israel's actions in Gaza, while reiterating their belief that Israel has a basic right to take action against Hamas. Recently, the U.S. abstained from vetoing a U.N. resolution calling for Israel to pause hostilities for humanitarian reasons. I get that many critics said the resolution was too watered down, specifically to win that U.S. abstention... but in U.S./Israeli relations, it's still a BFD. That does not look like "carte blanche" to me. But YMMV.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
Yes. In fact it's pretty clear that Hamas perpetrated the Oct. 7 attacks specifically to provoke this response. It's much like what Al Qaeda did on 9/11: Commit an outrageous, shocking terror attack on a powerful state in order to trigger a blind, rageful, oversized reaction. It worked that time too.
That's not to say Bibi or the IDF have no agency or responsibility here. But there's no way Hamas didn't want something like this to happen. They view Palestinian lives as pawns in a power game, and are perfectly happy to sacrifice thousands to gain more power and popularity. It's an age-old page out of the insurgent playbook.
I’ve been a big Biden supporter (best president in my lifetime!), but it’s unforgivable that his admin has signaled to Netanyahu that as far as they’re concerned he has carte Blanche.
My read on Biden (based on what he himself has said in interviews) is that as a rule, he believes in calling people in, rather than calling them out. E.g., his delicate handling of Joe Manchin that got the latter to sign some massive, amazingly progressive legislative packages... instead of publicly threatening Manchin, as many progressives wanted him to.
Biden's initial strategy after Oct. 7 was to state his strong support for Israel, and privately caution Netanyahu against overreach. He maintained this position longer than many people wanted him to, but it did result, temporarily, in an unofficial ceasefire.
Biden and others in the administration have since shifted to more open criticism of the scope of Israel's actions in Gaza, while reiterating their belief that Israel has a basic right to take action against Hamas. Recently, the U.S. abstained from vetoing a U.N. resolution calling for Israel to pause hostilities for humanitarian reasons. I get that many critics said the resolution was too watered down, specifically to win that U.S. abstention... but in U.S./Israeli relations, it's still a BFD. That does not look like "carte blanche" to me. But YMMV.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 7:37 PM on December 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
I do feel like the US is caught in a difficulty here where they aren't supportive of what Bebe/Israel is doing right now but they cannot just cold-turkey withdraw support for Israel. So there's a game of support + pressure happening right now, but I don't think it's going to last too much longer. Once the starvation truly starts, I think any support left is going to fold.
I fucking hate that I'm typing a sentence that says "once people start dying of hunger under the thumb of a US ally, THAT is when the support for that ally might finally fold", but that's what I'm typing.
And what is most worst? I'm typing that in good faith but not fully certain that will be true.
posted by hippybear at 7:42 PM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
I fucking hate that I'm typing a sentence that says "once people start dying of hunger under the thumb of a US ally, THAT is when the support for that ally might finally fold", but that's what I'm typing.
And what is most worst? I'm typing that in good faith but not fully certain that will be true.
posted by hippybear at 7:42 PM on December 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
People in Gaza have been being deprived, quietly, for fifteen years (Israel restricts calories into Gaza via the blockade; literally nobody there has quite enough to eat, ever, by design.) Nobody in power has ever cared about that; Israel is gambling that they're not going to care even now that thousands of people are visibly starving to death.
And frankly, judging by the media (and a lot of people on MetaFilter), they're probably right.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:49 PM on December 27, 2023 [35 favorites]
And frankly, judging by the media (and a lot of people on MetaFilter), they're probably right.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:49 PM on December 27, 2023 [35 favorites]
Also, for the record, there is literally zero evidence that Putin has ever coordinated with or assisted Hamas in any way. And the Red Scare bullshit is (a) exceedingly tiresome and (b) almost certainly borne out of US and Israeli propaganda, frankly.
I'm honestly wondering if anyone who constantly complains about Putin using propaganda and covert influence to destabilize the West has ever complained, on record, about how the US constantly uses propaganda and covert influence to destabilize fucking everyone else?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
I'm honestly wondering if anyone who constantly complains about Putin using propaganda and covert influence to destabilize the West has ever complained, on record, about how the US constantly uses propaganda and covert influence to destabilize fucking everyone else?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:53 PM on December 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
And frankly, judging by the media (and a lot of people on MetaFilter), they're probably right.
Please don't count me amongst those as I mentioned this early in the thread as a problem.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on December 27, 2023
Please don't count me amongst those as I mentioned this early in the thread as a problem.
posted by hippybear at 8:16 PM on December 27, 2023
And the Red Scare bullshit is (a) exceedingly tiresome and (b) almost certainly borne out of US and Israeli propaganda, frankly.
Has anyone here accused Putin of being a communist?
I'm honestly wondering if anyone who constantly complains about Putin using propaganda and covert influence to destabilize the West has ever complained, on record, about how the US constantly uses propaganda and covert influence to destabilize fucking everyone else?
Can you cite contemporary examples of U.S. psyops comparable to the well-documented influence operations that Putin's government has perpetrated on social media in the last decade?
Please note that I said "contemporary", not from 50 or 60 years ago.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Has anyone here accused Putin of being a communist?
I'm honestly wondering if anyone who constantly complains about Putin using propaganda and covert influence to destabilize the West has ever complained, on record, about how the US constantly uses propaganda and covert influence to destabilize fucking everyone else?
Can you cite contemporary examples of U.S. psyops comparable to the well-documented influence operations that Putin's government has perpetrated on social media in the last decade?
Please note that I said "contemporary", not from 50 or 60 years ago.
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 8:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
it's pretty clear that Hamas perpetrated the Oct. 7 attacks specifically to provoke this response
Crystal clear. And to an even greater degree than the disgusting war crimes that Hamas has perpetrated directly, that is why it deserves every shred of condemnation that's ever been directed its way.
Hamas has had decades of direct personal exposure to the callous, casual, facts-on-the-ground monstrosity of Likud in which to learn the nature of its enemy. And now that Likud is ruling in coalition with monsters even further to its right, the idea that those responsible for planning and executing the October attack could possibly have expected an Israeli response even slightly more restrained than what the whole world is now paying attention to is simply not credible.
And yet there is indeed no moral equivalence between Hamas and Likud, because on top of being irredeemably monstrous, Likud is composed entirely of mealy-mouthed hypocrites.
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Crystal clear. And to an even greater degree than the disgusting war crimes that Hamas has perpetrated directly, that is why it deserves every shred of condemnation that's ever been directed its way.
Hamas has had decades of direct personal exposure to the callous, casual, facts-on-the-ground monstrosity of Likud in which to learn the nature of its enemy. And now that Likud is ruling in coalition with monsters even further to its right, the idea that those responsible for planning and executing the October attack could possibly have expected an Israeli response even slightly more restrained than what the whole world is now paying attention to is simply not credible.
And yet there is indeed no moral equivalence between Hamas and Likud, because on top of being irredeemably monstrous, Likud is composed entirely of mealy-mouthed hypocrites.
posted by flabdablet at 8:33 PM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
I am very disappointed to see people here defending the genocide and colonization of Palestine by zionists.
Did I miss some posts or something?
posted by eviemath at 8:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
Did I miss some posts or something?
posted by eviemath at 8:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [17 favorites]
Artifice_Eternity: Can you cite contemporary examples of U.S. psyops comparable to the well-documented influence operations that Putin's government has perpetrated on social media in the last decade?
There are plenty of contemporary examples that people will give if you go into the wrong forums, though it's hard to tell how many of them are true and how many of them are Putin and Xi propaganda falsely accusing the Americans of propaganda.
This article (PDF) from the official journal of the Canadian Armed Forces tries to understand multiple perspectives on the depends-on-how-you-look-at-them phenomena of "colour revolutions". Are there well-funded American influence operations going on in them? For sure. Is that bad? Uh... I dunno? Probably not? Time will tell, I guess?
posted by clawsoon at 8:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are plenty of contemporary examples that people will give if you go into the wrong forums, though it's hard to tell how many of them are true and how many of them are Putin and Xi propaganda falsely accusing the Americans of propaganda.
This article (PDF) from the official journal of the Canadian Armed Forces tries to understand multiple perspectives on the depends-on-how-you-look-at-them phenomena of "colour revolutions". Are there well-funded American influence operations going on in them? For sure. Is that bad? Uh... I dunno? Probably not? Time will tell, I guess?
posted by clawsoon at 8:38 PM on December 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
clawsoon:
Oh right, he's the bad guy and the US is the good guy.
(All states are illegitimate. All empires are evil. From the perspective of the US's many, many victims, i don't think there's much to choose from between us and Russia.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:05 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Are there well-funded American influence operations going on in them? For sure. Is that bad? Uh... I dunno? Probably not?Well, then, what exactly is wrong with Putin's well-funded influence operations? Sauce for the goose, and all that.
Oh right, he's the bad guy and the US is the good guy.
(All states are illegitimate. All empires are evil. From the perspective of the US's many, many victims, i don't think there's much to choose from between us and Russia.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:05 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Artifice_Eternity: it's by no means specifically limited to psyops but one fairly recent example of US meddling in foreign elections is Operation Car Wash.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:06 PM on December 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hate linking to Youtube videos, but its tough to find a succinct overview of the geolopolitical situation in the Middle East, so here is one I liked that is as a good as any piece of media I've seen: video link
There is no question Vladimir Putin is probably the biggest benecificary of what is going on - he's pretty much guranteed to win his war in Ukraine now - but the Hamas attack was just a happy accident for him.
The true driver of the attack was the now likely scuttled deal normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Basically, Hamas and the people of Gaza in general were becoming increasingly isolated from any kind of help.
My sense is that none of the surrounding Arab governents sans Syria, which isn't a position to do anything given its civil war, really care about Palestine. They are more worried about preparing their countries for a post-oil world and investing their massive petroleaum wealth. They have to at least give lip service to aiding Palestine to retain legitemacy in the eyes of the populations they rule, however, because their intelligence services can only torture and kill so many of their own people ...
Even Iran, which is both the largest regional power and most aggressively anti-Israel nation in the region, probably isn't too keen on starting things because of the prospect of missles and bombs, possibly with nuclear warheads, raining down on their heads.
There are red lines, though, beyond which the threat of, for example, millions of Palestinian refugees poses just as much if not more of a risk to these governments than the prospect of Israeli and even American bombs. The trillion dollar question is: What are those lines? I'm not sure anyone really knows.
And in many ways the Israeli government itself possibly is the biggest source of instabality in all of this. When will they stop in Gaza? Will they really try, as they suggested, to try and force neigboring countries with the help of the US to accept Gaza residents they "resettle". Will they attack Lebanon to remove the threat of Hezebollah from their border, which might draw both Iran and the US into the war on opposite sides? Considering they basically have a blank check from the US government, they really are in the drivers seat.
This twitter thtead analyzes the possibly ominous implications of a recent killing of an Iranian general likely committed by the Israelis.
posted by eagles123 at 9:11 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
There is no question Vladimir Putin is probably the biggest benecificary of what is going on - he's pretty much guranteed to win his war in Ukraine now - but the Hamas attack was just a happy accident for him.
The true driver of the attack was the now likely scuttled deal normalizing relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel. Basically, Hamas and the people of Gaza in general were becoming increasingly isolated from any kind of help.
My sense is that none of the surrounding Arab governents sans Syria, which isn't a position to do anything given its civil war, really care about Palestine. They are more worried about preparing their countries for a post-oil world and investing their massive petroleaum wealth. They have to at least give lip service to aiding Palestine to retain legitemacy in the eyes of the populations they rule, however, because their intelligence services can only torture and kill so many of their own people ...
Even Iran, which is both the largest regional power and most aggressively anti-Israel nation in the region, probably isn't too keen on starting things because of the prospect of missles and bombs, possibly with nuclear warheads, raining down on their heads.
There are red lines, though, beyond which the threat of, for example, millions of Palestinian refugees poses just as much if not more of a risk to these governments than the prospect of Israeli and even American bombs. The trillion dollar question is: What are those lines? I'm not sure anyone really knows.
And in many ways the Israeli government itself possibly is the biggest source of instabality in all of this. When will they stop in Gaza? Will they really try, as they suggested, to try and force neigboring countries with the help of the US to accept Gaza residents they "resettle". Will they attack Lebanon to remove the threat of Hezebollah from their border, which might draw both Iran and the US into the war on opposite sides? Considering they basically have a blank check from the US government, they really are in the drivers seat.
This twitter thtead analyzes the possibly ominous implications of a recent killing of an Iranian general likely committed by the Israelis.
posted by eagles123 at 9:11 PM on December 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hamas has had decades of direct personal exposure to the callous, casual, facts-on-the-ground monstrosity of Likud in which to learn the nature of its enemy. And now that Likud is ruling in coalition with monsters even further to its right, the idea that those responsible for planning and executing the October attack could possibly have expected an Israeli response even slightly more restrained than what the whole world is now paying attention to is simply not credible.I'm suddenly extremely glad that MetaFilter didn't exist during South African Apartheid.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:18 PM on December 27, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm honestly wondering if anyone who constantly complains about Putin using propaganda and covert influence to destabilize the West has ever complained, on record, about how the US constantly uses propaganda and covert influence to destabilize fucking everyone else?
Um...yes? Hi, antiwar organizer here, I've been complaining about the US for a long ass time. Also, just because Republicans still think Russia is communist doesn't mean it actually is and doesn't mean we need to stan it. Putin is no communist; he's an imperialist, and all of his actions showcase that.
posted by corb at 9:47 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
Um...yes? Hi, antiwar organizer here, I've been complaining about the US for a long ass time. Also, just because Republicans still think Russia is communist doesn't mean it actually is and doesn't mean we need to stan it. Putin is no communist; he's an imperialist, and all of his actions showcase that.
posted by corb at 9:47 PM on December 27, 2023 [19 favorites]
corb: believe me, i am aware that Putin is not a communist and that Russia is not a communist country. But structurally, "it's all Putin's/Russia's fault" is indistinguishable from Red Scare bullshit, and it's extremely tedious. The USA and Israel have agency and both of them do a fantastic job of making everyone hate their guts without needing some external force to blame.
Also, you and i clearly have different understandings of what "a long ass time" is, given that i remember some of your comments on the site from before i buttoned, lmao.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also, you and i clearly have different understandings of what "a long ass time" is, given that i remember some of your comments on the site from before i buttoned, lmao.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:14 PM on December 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
This twitter thtead analyzes the possibly ominous implications of a recent killing of an Iranian general likely committed by the Israelis.
It gets even better.
'The IRGC spokesperson claimed that the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel was retaliation for the United States’ targeted killing of Qassem Soleimani in a failed effort to show unity across the Axis of Resistance and portray Iran as a leader.'
posted by clavdivs at 11:03 PM on December 27, 2023
It gets even better.
'The IRGC spokesperson claimed that the October 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel was retaliation for the United States’ targeted killing of Qassem Soleimani in a failed effort to show unity across the Axis of Resistance and portray Iran as a leader.'
posted by clavdivs at 11:03 PM on December 27, 2023
-Compromise U.N. resolution calls for faster aid to Gaza, but not a cease-fire
-A former State Dept. official explains why he resigned over U.S. arms sent to Israel
also btw...
Iran Adds to Pressure on U.S. With Nuclear Program Acceleration - "Israel has warned it could take military action against Iran if Tehran starts producing uranium enriched to 90%."
posted by kliuless at 11:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
-A former State Dept. official explains why he resigned over U.S. arms sent to Israel
also btw...
Iran Adds to Pressure on U.S. With Nuclear Program Acceleration - "Israel has warned it could take military action against Iran if Tehran starts producing uranium enriched to 90%."
posted by kliuless at 11:59 PM on December 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
(1) .
(2) I mourn watching ethnic cleansing and feeling powerless. All I have to give are money and my words.
(3) The argument about Russia confuses me. I'll try to be clear: we are in the early stages of a world war, operating on many fronts. The massacre perpetrated by Hamas was heavily supported by Iran. Hamas chose their own timing, and surely recognized how this would impact the Abraham accords. Destabilizing the Abraham accords connects directly to foreign policy goals of Iran and Russia.
Replace "Putin" with "the Kremlin and allied states", and think in terms of many small factors contributing to the final outcome, and the link to the war in Ukraine should be clear.
If not, I encourage you to read more about the scale of war crimes being committed by Russia in Ukraine (cultural genocide; kidnapping children by the 10s of thousands and then conscripting them when they come of age; mass bombing campaigns against civilian electrical infrastructure that impacted 80% of the population; blowing up one of the largest dams).
A note on epistemology: when reasoning about geopolitics, think in terms of dozens or hundreds of factors, all adding a little bit to the outcome. Then try to judge the relative importance of the factors.
posted by constraint at 1:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Replace "Putin" with "the Kremlin and allied states", and think in terms of many small factors contributing to the final outcome, and the link to the war in Ukraine should be clear.What on earth are you talking about?
Russia has no interest in assisting the Iranian backed resistance to Israeli genocide because it would trigger Republicans in congress into pushing more American weapons into Ukraine.
posted by zymil at 3:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
What I can't understand is this: It's been well documented at this point that Netanyahu and the IDF ignored multiple warnings about the Oct 7 attacks leading up to the massacre. They ignored intelligence, and reports from their own soldiers the night before the attack.
So, how on Earth are these same people who let the attack happen still in charge of the response to it? That seems absolutely ridiculous.
The worst possible explanation is that they allowed Oct 7 to happen so they could have an excuse to annihilate the Palestinians. I don't want to believe that suspicion, but I am finding it harder and harder to shake.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
So, how on Earth are these same people who let the attack happen still in charge of the response to it? That seems absolutely ridiculous.
The worst possible explanation is that they allowed Oct 7 to happen so they could have an excuse to annihilate the Palestinians. I don't want to believe that suspicion, but I am finding it harder and harder to shake.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 3:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
It’s a bummer this thread is so much about Putin. I flagged many as de-rail, but obviously mods don’t agree it’s a de-rail.
I would prefer there be a different post about Hamas and Russia and we keep to talking and sharing links about the current situation.
posted by creiszhanson at 5:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
I would prefer there be a different post about Hamas and Russia and we keep to talking and sharing links about the current situation.
posted by creiszhanson at 5:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
It honestly stuns me that “there are Very Bad Criminals there so OBVIOUSLY Israel has no choice but to indiscriminately bomb it to rubble and kill thousands of children” is an opinion it is even possible to have. I truly cannot find the words to express how horrific I find that opinion to be.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:17 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:17 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
It honestly stuns me that “there are Very Bad Criminals there so OBVIOUSLY Israel has no choice but to indiscriminately bomb it to rubble and kill thousands of children” is an opinion it is even possible to have. I truly cannot find the words to express how horrific I find that opinion to be.
Is anyone here actually saying that? If so, I missed it. What is being said is that the attacks were done in large part to provoke the nearly-inevitable disproportionate response. With Netanyahu in power, what chance was there of a different or more measured response? Even now, there seems to be a total unwillingness on the part of Netanyahu and his cabinet to make adjustments or changes in response to either external or internal criticisms.
Any country that was attacked like that would respond with serious military force -- some level of bombing/invasion is going to happen regardless of who the attacked country is. But bombing indiscriminately using 2000-pound "dumb" bombs, cutting off food and water, and so on were all choices that didn't have to get made, and don't need to be continued.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Is anyone here actually saying that? If so, I missed it. What is being said is that the attacks were done in large part to provoke the nearly-inevitable disproportionate response. With Netanyahu in power, what chance was there of a different or more measured response? Even now, there seems to be a total unwillingness on the part of Netanyahu and his cabinet to make adjustments or changes in response to either external or internal criticisms.
Any country that was attacked like that would respond with serious military force -- some level of bombing/invasion is going to happen regardless of who the attacked country is. But bombing indiscriminately using 2000-pound "dumb" bombs, cutting off food and water, and so on were all choices that didn't have to get made, and don't need to be continued.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
It's entirely possible that Netanyahu "allowed Oct 7 to happen" because the IDF assumed that Hamas's attack would be something on the scale of what they'd seen before; ie, some rockets, some shooting at the border. By all accounts, Hamas succeeded beyond its expectations. I expect that no one actually "planned" for the outcome that was obtained and both sides find themselves trapped by their own "success."
posted by SPrintF at 6:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 6:36 AM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
every time we start a new gaza thread we spend the first 300 comments having the most insane, irrelevant conversations, all while palestinians are continually murdered en masse.
anyone who is talking about Putin right now is not someone with a serious opinion on this conflict so I don't know why we need to even entertain the discussion.
the president of the united states is literally circumventing congress to send Israel the tools to execute this genocide. we do not need to spend time contemplating hypothetical evil actors when we can literally point to the people responsible for this atrocity because they're executing it in plain sight.
posted by nourishedbytime at 6:43 AM on December 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
anyone who is talking about Putin right now is not someone with a serious opinion on this conflict so I don't know why we need to even entertain the discussion.
the president of the united states is literally circumventing congress to send Israel the tools to execute this genocide. we do not need to spend time contemplating hypothetical evil actors when we can literally point to the people responsible for this atrocity because they're executing it in plain sight.
posted by nourishedbytime at 6:43 AM on December 28, 2023 [38 favorites]
anyone who is talking about Putin right now is not someone with a serious opinion on this conflict so I don't know why we need to even entertain the discussion.
That's a seriously unserious opinion. Of course Putin was involved: he's at war with the West, with his allies Iran and China and the Republican Party, in an effort to destroy democracy and replace it with oligarchic rule. Gaza/Hamas is just one small front in a much larger conflict.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a seriously unserious opinion. Of course Putin was involved: he's at war with the West, with his allies Iran and China and the Republican Party, in an effort to destroy democracy and replace it with oligarchic rule. Gaza/Hamas is just one small front in a much larger conflict.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:57 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Please post journalistic evidence of Putin's involvement with the Gaza conflict if it's something you want to talk about. If you're just speculating, there is an ongoing genocide happening and it is not appropriate.
Gaza/Hamas is just one small front in a much larger conflict.
given the legions of dead Palestinians i cannot even put into words how offensive this idea is to me.
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
Gaza/Hamas is just one small front in a much larger conflict.
given the legions of dead Palestinians i cannot even put into words how offensive this idea is to me.
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:02 AM on December 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
Of course Putin was involved
You…just made this up? Theres no evidence. There may be. We don’t know but anyone with any expertise on this conflict puts Putin pretty far down on the relevant actor list. This is jet fuel can’t melt steel beams territory.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
You…just made this up? Theres no evidence. There may be. We don’t know but anyone with any expertise on this conflict puts Putin pretty far down on the relevant actor list. This is jet fuel can’t melt steel beams territory.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [23 favorites]
At this point anyone who says “Gaza/Hamas” with a straight face is someone whose opinion I cannot take seriously. There is no logical endgame to that line of thinking besides the complete extermination of the entire population of Palestine.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:09 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
I don't know how well regarded Times Of Israel is as a news source, but from just last week, Putin tells Abbas he’ll continue sending aid to Gaza, urges a ‘quick’ end to war certainly shows that Putin is putting a public thumb on the scale. I've found hints that he's doing more out of the public eye but no actual news articles to link.
Searching a news aggregator like Google News for "putin israel hamas" yields a lot of interesting bits and pieces. This article from Reuters from before Thanksgiving is a little prism glimpse: Russia's Putin tries to use Gaza war to his geopolitical advantage.
posted by hippybear at 7:18 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Searching a news aggregator like Google News for "putin israel hamas" yields a lot of interesting bits and pieces. This article from Reuters from before Thanksgiving is a little prism glimpse: Russia's Putin tries to use Gaza war to his geopolitical advantage.
posted by hippybear at 7:18 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Of course Putin was involved: he's at war with the West, with his allies Iran and China and the Republican Party, in an effort to destroy democracy and replace it with oligarchic rule.i have absolutely no words for how unserious, stupid, utterly vile, and fractally wrong this sentence is.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:27 AM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I don't know how well regarded Times Of Israel is as a news source, but from just last week, Putin tells Abbas he’ll continue sending aid to Gaza, urges a ‘quick’ end to war certainly shows that Putin is putting a public thumb on the scale.
even if the premise is that Putin is pumping resources into Gaza because of some proxy war with the US, Joe Biden is the one openly sending weapons to the genociders. so i personally am going to need a lot more evidence of wrongdoing before i am willing to put this atrocity on anyone else's lap.
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
even if the premise is that Putin is pumping resources into Gaza because of some proxy war with the US, Joe Biden is the one openly sending weapons to the genociders. so i personally am going to need a lot more evidence of wrongdoing before i am willing to put this atrocity on anyone else's lap.
posted by nourishedbytime at 7:33 AM on December 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Putin Is Getting What He Wants (NYT)
As Israel and Hamas descend into all-out war, Russia has been more of a bit player than a lead actor. There is no evidence that Moscow directly aided or abetted Hamas’s vicious attack against Israel on Oct. 7, despite some early suggestions.
Unverified rumours of Russia arming Hamas persist, as war rages in Gaza (Al Jazeera)
An expert renews claims that the October 7 Hamas attacks in Israel were ‘coordinated’ with Moscow, despite a lack of evidence.
I think if folks want to engage in unsourced speculation about Vladimir Putin, they should start a separate thread for it. These FPPs on the siege of Gaza are most useful when they are providing us with rich information and discussions about the ongoing assault and related politics.
posted by kensington314 at 7:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
As Israel and Hamas descend into all-out war, Russia has been more of a bit player than a lead actor. There is no evidence that Moscow directly aided or abetted Hamas’s vicious attack against Israel on Oct. 7, despite some early suggestions.
Unverified rumours of Russia arming Hamas persist, as war rages in Gaza (Al Jazeera)
An expert renews claims that the October 7 Hamas attacks in Israel were ‘coordinated’ with Moscow, despite a lack of evidence.
I think if folks want to engage in unsourced speculation about Vladimir Putin, they should start a separate thread for it. These FPPs on the siege of Gaza are most useful when they are providing us with rich information and discussions about the ongoing assault and related politics.
posted by kensington314 at 7:34 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Maybe Americans talking about Putin is just reflexive at this point. If you spend time being mad at Biden, then who's the alternative? Staring so directly that one's well-meaning vote in 2020 has caused such horror surely needs contemplation. But yeah, such a wideranging dimension deserves its own FPP. Other mefites have managed to make their own FPPs on other facets of either Palestinian life or Jewish diaspora in the last 2.5 months.
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
I think it’s more: “gonna get mad at Putin so I don’t have to get mad at Biden”. Putin has been a very convenient scapegoat so that the Dem leadership doesn’t have to be held accountable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:51 AM on December 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Agreed re: the derail. This isn't a thread about the geopolitics of the war, this is a thread about the murder of Palestinians
posted by some loser at 8:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by some loser at 8:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Look, I don't know if Putin lifted a single finger to aid, instruct or order anyone in Hamas to do what they did in October. But I cannot imagine him being anything less than ecstatic from afar over how the situation has turned out, given how it has destabilized the leadership of his greatest rival nation and made it far more likely that an easily-manipulated orange buffoon will retake the reins of power there next year.
I don't know if Hamas leadership predicted the full scale of Israel's retaliation for Oct. 7th -- they knew that it would be intense and disproportionate, obviously, but perhaps not that actual the-complete-end-of-Gaza genocide was coming. But if they did anticipate complete annihilation... it's hard to imagine what they would feel that they'd gain from that outcome that would be worth the price paid. That the death toll in October -- shocking and horrifying as it was -- was enough in their minds to compensate for the end of everything they'd dreamed of or worked towards. That they wouldn't know that the United States, as always, would protect Israel from any meaningful repercussions.
This is not to diminish what they did do that day, which was shocking and horrifying and worthy of condemnation. Certainly not to morally justify it, much less cheerlead. Perhaps they did believe that it was the best shot they'd ever have, the most damage they could ever inflict, and that that alone justified any consequences. But to my untrained eye, tactically speaking, Oct. 7th seemed more like a deadly escalation -- catch them by surprise, hit who and what they can hard, take hostages, get back to their side, plan their next move -- than a final, knowingly-suicidal, all-or-nothing lunge at the throat.
But if finality wasn't their intention, it's certainly what they're receiving..
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know if Hamas leadership predicted the full scale of Israel's retaliation for Oct. 7th -- they knew that it would be intense and disproportionate, obviously, but perhaps not that actual the-complete-end-of-Gaza genocide was coming. But if they did anticipate complete annihilation... it's hard to imagine what they would feel that they'd gain from that outcome that would be worth the price paid. That the death toll in October -- shocking and horrifying as it was -- was enough in their minds to compensate for the end of everything they'd dreamed of or worked towards. That they wouldn't know that the United States, as always, would protect Israel from any meaningful repercussions.
This is not to diminish what they did do that day, which was shocking and horrifying and worthy of condemnation. Certainly not to morally justify it, much less cheerlead. Perhaps they did believe that it was the best shot they'd ever have, the most damage they could ever inflict, and that that alone justified any consequences. But to my untrained eye, tactically speaking, Oct. 7th seemed more like a deadly escalation -- catch them by surprise, hit who and what they can hard, take hostages, get back to their side, plan their next move -- than a final, knowingly-suicidal, all-or-nothing lunge at the throat.
But if finality wasn't their intention, it's certainly what they're receiving..
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Staring so directly that one's well-meaning vote in 2020 has caused such horror surely needs contemplation.
Voting against TFG in 2020 caused no such thing. The potential for the present horror has been a fixture of US foreign policy for the fifty years that the US has been blocking UN Security Council resolutions aimed at reining in Israel's flagrant and ongoing violations of international law; the specific occupant of the Oval Office in any given year is an irrelevance.
Anybody who regrets voting for Biden on the basis of his abject and craven failure to shut down this massacre needs to think very hard about what the guy who recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital to near-universal condemnation - a guy, furthermore, who is far closer ideologically and morally to Netanyahu than Biden is - would have done differently. I for one remain firmly convinced that the answer to that is "even less".
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
Voting against TFG in 2020 caused no such thing. The potential for the present horror has been a fixture of US foreign policy for the fifty years that the US has been blocking UN Security Council resolutions aimed at reining in Israel's flagrant and ongoing violations of international law; the specific occupant of the Oval Office in any given year is an irrelevance.
Anybody who regrets voting for Biden on the basis of his abject and craven failure to shut down this massacre needs to think very hard about what the guy who recognized Jerusalem as Israel's capital to near-universal condemnation - a guy, furthermore, who is far closer ideologically and morally to Netanyahu than Biden is - would have done differently. I for one remain firmly convinced that the answer to that is "even less".
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 AM on December 28, 2023 [25 favorites]
I sit here with impotent rage at my inability to have any measurable effect on the ongoing genocide being perpetrated on Gaza and west bank Palestinians. I just want to scream about warlords, colonialism, politics driven by resource extraction that is killing the planet, American evangelicals, Britain, evil, and wasted potential.
Instead I write leaders I theoretically have influence over, donate to relief organizations and I guess vent on metafilter. Turns out to not be cathartic at all.
Such an obvious injustice; a wrong; and an evil. And yet the west collectively can't even agree on that it is that let alone take any active steps to prevent a slaughter of a population by starvation and deprivation even while it is making the news. And in fact actively arm the perpetrators.
Collectively we turn out to be no better than the people who stood around watching the Soviets during the Holodomor, the British during the Irish potato famine, the Nazis during both the 2+ million Soviet POWs they starved to death and of course their more well known activities. Or the leaders who stood by or actively assisted the killings in Rwanda, Cambodia, Armenia.
Fucking residential schools in Canada!
Augh!
Staring so directly that one's well-meaning vote in 2020 has caused such horror surely needs contemplation.
It's not like TFG's response would have been different in any intentionally good way and likely would have been worse.
posted by Mitheral at 8:46 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Instead I write leaders I theoretically have influence over, donate to relief organizations and I guess vent on metafilter. Turns out to not be cathartic at all.
Such an obvious injustice; a wrong; and an evil. And yet the west collectively can't even agree on that it is that let alone take any active steps to prevent a slaughter of a population by starvation and deprivation even while it is making the news. And in fact actively arm the perpetrators.
Collectively we turn out to be no better than the people who stood around watching the Soviets during the Holodomor, the British during the Irish potato famine, the Nazis during both the 2+ million Soviet POWs they starved to death and of course their more well known activities. Or the leaders who stood by or actively assisted the killings in Rwanda, Cambodia, Armenia.
Fucking residential schools in Canada!
Augh!
Staring so directly that one's well-meaning vote in 2020 has caused such horror surely needs contemplation.
It's not like TFG's response would have been different in any intentionally good way and likely would have been worse.
posted by Mitheral at 8:46 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Is there a chance Bibi and Putin share a common goal? I feel right-wing authoritarians have much more overlap than their differences. Is there some cynical, collaborative goal they're both achieving here? Doesn't a Trump presidency help them both?
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 8:49 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Christ, what an asshole at 8:49 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I sit here with impotent rage at my inability to have any measurable effect on the ongoing genocide being perpetrated on Gaza and west bank Palestinians.
Nobody has any effect. Because almost literally nobody who could affect the situation gives anything like a shit about the welfare of ordinary Palestinians. Nobody. They're only useful as proxies or fig leafs. The Arab despots will pay lots of lip service, because they can let their people blow off steam marching in solidarity with Palestinians as a safety valve to keep their hold on power—but they're not going to let a single refugee in, both because they already have too many mouths to feed, and also because of the long history of Palestinian refugees causing all sorts of civil unrest. Anyone else either straight-up couldn't care less or else only pretends to care as a means of destabilizing Western countries.
It's a tough pill to swallow, and I don't blame you for being upset about it, but nothing will change.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Nobody has any effect. Because almost literally nobody who could affect the situation gives anything like a shit about the welfare of ordinary Palestinians. Nobody. They're only useful as proxies or fig leafs. The Arab despots will pay lots of lip service, because they can let their people blow off steam marching in solidarity with Palestinians as a safety valve to keep their hold on power—but they're not going to let a single refugee in, both because they already have too many mouths to feed, and also because of the long history of Palestinian refugees causing all sorts of civil unrest. Anyone else either straight-up couldn't care less or else only pretends to care as a means of destabilizing Western countries.
It's a tough pill to swallow, and I don't blame you for being upset about it, but nothing will change.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 8:56 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
NYT: In a Worldwide War of Words, Russia, China and Iran Back Hamas: Officials and researchers say the deluge of online propaganda and disinformation is larger than anything seen before.
CNN: China is using the world’s largest known online disinformation operation to harass Americans, a CNN review finds
Axios: Iran is diving into the disinformation wars, Microsoft says
posted by gwint at 8:59 AM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
CNN: China is using the world’s largest known online disinformation operation to harass Americans, a CNN review finds
Axios: Iran is diving into the disinformation wars, Microsoft says
posted by gwint at 8:59 AM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Is there a chance Bibi and Putin share a common goal?
Both are murderous, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, amoral criminals motivated mainly by the desire to shore up their own power bases and avoid all accountability for the incalculable death, destruction and theft they're responsible for. If they're working in concert, it will be because doing so is currently mutually advantageous, not because either has an eye on any kind of greater goal.
There is no honour among grifters.
posted by flabdablet at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Both are murderous, self-serving, self-aggrandizing, amoral criminals motivated mainly by the desire to shore up their own power bases and avoid all accountability for the incalculable death, destruction and theft they're responsible for. If they're working in concert, it will be because doing so is currently mutually advantageous, not because either has an eye on any kind of greater goal.
There is no honour among grifters.
posted by flabdablet at 9:00 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Great, now that we've entertained this seemingly necessary venting about geopolitical actors with not much reported evidence of direct intervention, just the usual analysis (that i find pertinent yes, but noticeably one of the few tangents that gets a lot of activity) shall we move to those who are? Or do the Houthis need to launch more drone attacks?
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
WaPo: Hamas received weapons and training from Iran, officials say
Reuters: Russia-Iran ties have reached new level, Russian defence minister says
CNN: Top US general says increased partnership between Iran, Russia, and China will make them ‘problematic’ for ‘years to come’
CNN: China, Russia, Iran and Cuba all tried to meddle in 2022 US congressional elections, intelligence assessment finds
Reuters: Russian links with China, Iran and North Korea a threat, warns Finland
posted by gwint at 9:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Reuters: Russia-Iran ties have reached new level, Russian defence minister says
CNN: Top US general says increased partnership between Iran, Russia, and China will make them ‘problematic’ for ‘years to come’
CNN: China, Russia, Iran and Cuba all tried to meddle in 2022 US congressional elections, intelligence assessment finds
Reuters: Russian links with China, Iran and North Korea a threat, warns Finland
posted by gwint at 9:14 AM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like, not a single share about how that new "coalition of the willing" is shaking out? This was how the Express reports it: Joe Biden warned 'no one takes him seriously' as EU brutally snubs US. But even if it was a diplomatic announcement that France, Spain, and Italy have all announced their withdrawal from the US Command Structure for Operation Prosperity Guardian, and would rather go under an EU one, that should have at least provided some chinwag material.
Or this news that's been having its ups and downs in terms of reception amongst the involved actors so I'm not counting it out yet: Egypt sets out ambitious Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan. That's at least good for several rounds of armchair analysis.
But let's bring Russia and China to the fore as well. Main Characters can only ever talk about other Main Characters.
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Or this news that's been having its ups and downs in terms of reception amongst the involved actors so I'm not counting it out yet: Egypt sets out ambitious Israel-Gaza ceasefire plan. That's at least good for several rounds of armchair analysis.
But let's bring Russia and China to the fore as well. Main Characters can only ever talk about other Main Characters.
posted by cendawanita at 9:21 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
(Literally a war happening in the Middle East, and just because there's no DH Lawrence-type to hang your imagination around, you still can't think about the Arabs as having their own motivation and drive. Very pre-Oct 7 intelligence failure of us.)
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:25 AM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
"i have absolutely no words for how unserious, stupid, utterly vile, and fractally wrong this sentence is."
These threads man...
posted by gwint at 9:27 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
These threads man...
posted by gwint at 9:27 AM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Very important to let us know the urgency of news reports about a US general saying that China and Russia are bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:43 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:43 AM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Let's avoid personal attacks.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:47 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:47 AM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Heh. (Iran International) Iran's IRGC Spokesman Breaks Ranks On Hamas, Soleimani
Contradicting a statement from the IRGC spokesman, its top commander, Hossein Salami, denied Iran's involvement in Hamas's October 7 invasion of Israel.
“The al-Aqsa Flood operation was completely a Palestinian operation. It was designed and implemented by Palestinians and no decision was made outside of Palestine,” stressed IRGC Commander, Salami, speaking during the funeral service for Razi Mousavi, the IRGC's man in Syria, killed in an alleged Israeli airstrike this week.
“Resistance in Iraq is part of the resistance front [in the region], but acts independently. In Lebanon, Hezbollah acts independently,” Salami went on to say.
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Contradicting a statement from the IRGC spokesman, its top commander, Hossein Salami, denied Iran's involvement in Hamas's October 7 invasion of Israel.
“The al-Aqsa Flood operation was completely a Palestinian operation. It was designed and implemented by Palestinians and no decision was made outside of Palestine,” stressed IRGC Commander, Salami, speaking during the funeral service for Razi Mousavi, the IRGC's man in Syria, killed in an alleged Israeli airstrike this week.
“Resistance in Iraq is part of the resistance front [in the region], but acts independently. In Lebanon, Hezbollah acts independently,” Salami went on to say.
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 AM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
My read on Biden (based on what he himself has said in interviews) is that as a rule, he believes in calling people in, rather than calling them out. E.g., his delicate handling of Joe Manchin that got the latter to sign some massive, amazingly progressive legislative packages... instead of publicly threatening Manchin, as many progressives wanted him to.
Very brief derail, but I want to live in the world you're living in, and not the one where Manchin made numerous public statements in support of a multi-trillion dollar BBB and then turned around in bad faith and unashamedly stabbed the Democrats in the back without any consequences whatsoever.
Because your world is a world where child care in this country is somewhat less abysmal than it is now, among many other things.
posted by Gadarene at 10:15 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Very brief derail, but I want to live in the world you're living in, and not the one where Manchin made numerous public statements in support of a multi-trillion dollar BBB and then turned around in bad faith and unashamedly stabbed the Democrats in the back without any consequences whatsoever.
Because your world is a world where child care in this country is somewhat less abysmal than it is now, among many other things.
posted by Gadarene at 10:15 AM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's going to be so awesome when Manchin runs as a third-party spoiler but the Democrats and a huge chunk of their base decide on punching left even harder.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:23 AM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
As the American Jewish scholar Norman Finkelstein has noted, Hamas’ breakout on 7 October is better understood not as a war but as a slave revolt. And like slave rebellions throughout history - from Spartacus’ against the Romans to Nat Turner’s in Virginia in 1831 - it was inevitably going to turn brutal and bloody.
Are we on the side of the murderous prison guards? Are we arming the plantation owners?
Are we the baddies?.
it has been barely feasible to refer to these past weeks as a war. Gaza is not a state, it has no army. It has been under occupation for decades and under siege for 16 years – a blockade in which Israel has counted the calories allowed in to maintain low-level malnutrition among Palestinians.
posted by adamvasco at 11:53 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Are we on the side of the murderous prison guards? Are we arming the plantation owners?
Are we the baddies?.
it has been barely feasible to refer to these past weeks as a war. Gaza is not a state, it has no army. It has been under occupation for decades and under siege for 16 years – a blockade in which Israel has counted the calories allowed in to maintain low-level malnutrition among Palestinians.
posted by adamvasco at 11:53 AM on December 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
The New York Times: ‘Screams Without Words’: How Hamas Weaponized Sexual Violence on Oct. 7. CW for extremely graphic eyewitness accounts of rape, torture, mutilation and decapitation.
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:10 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Gordion Knott at 12:10 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
yes hamas machine gunning kids at a rave was just like spartacus and nat turner.
posted by lalochezia at 12:11 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 12:11 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
mrjohnmuller What I can't understand is this: It's been well documented at this point that Netanyahu and the IDF ignored multiple warnings about the Oct 7 attacks leading up to the massacre. They ignored intelligence, and reports from their own soldiers the night before the attack.
In general people tend to ignore clear warnings that things may be different from the status quo.
Sure, the open, horrifying[1], misogyny in the IDF is contributory but even without that I think the result would have been much the same. I fucking hate Junior but I don't think he maliciously ignored warnings about 9/11, he and most other people just never do take warnings of different things happening very seriously because things have been the same since forever so why should they change?
If anyone in Israel actually gave the warnings much thought they probably just assumed it was warning of something like they'd seen before: some more rockets, a few abortive infantry attacks, nothing different, nothing major.
What's the first reaction anyone has when they see a warning light or alarm for some system they monitor go off? Answer: they tap it and wonder if it's broken. I think that's likely what we were seeing with the IDF's lack of response: a months long institutional tapping on the dial to see if it really was an alert or just a faulty reading.
Much as I loathe both Junior and Netanyahu, I don't think either of them intended to allow an attack to happen. An attack like that had never happened before, why should one happen now? Except it did and then they had the next entirely predictable human reaction: a hugely over the top response to try to look strong and bold and not look like idiots who ignored warnings.
[1] And entirely predictable since the Israeli government empowers and supports some of the most venomously misogynist fundamentalist Jews around.
posted by sotonohito at 12:15 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
In general people tend to ignore clear warnings that things may be different from the status quo.
Sure, the open, horrifying[1], misogyny in the IDF is contributory but even without that I think the result would have been much the same. I fucking hate Junior but I don't think he maliciously ignored warnings about 9/11, he and most other people just never do take warnings of different things happening very seriously because things have been the same since forever so why should they change?
If anyone in Israel actually gave the warnings much thought they probably just assumed it was warning of something like they'd seen before: some more rockets, a few abortive infantry attacks, nothing different, nothing major.
What's the first reaction anyone has when they see a warning light or alarm for some system they monitor go off? Answer: they tap it and wonder if it's broken. I think that's likely what we were seeing with the IDF's lack of response: a months long institutional tapping on the dial to see if it really was an alert or just a faulty reading.
Much as I loathe both Junior and Netanyahu, I don't think either of them intended to allow an attack to happen. An attack like that had never happened before, why should one happen now? Except it did and then they had the next entirely predictable human reaction: a hugely over the top response to try to look strong and bold and not look like idiots who ignored warnings.
[1] And entirely predictable since the Israeli government empowers and supports some of the most venomously misogynist fundamentalist Jews around.
posted by sotonohito at 12:15 PM on December 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
we will most likely spend a large chunk of the rest of our lives relitigating 10/7 but israel is still committing a genocide right now, regardless of who sparked the fire.
posted by nourishedbytime at 12:26 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by nourishedbytime at 12:26 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
we will most likely spend a large chunk of the rest of our lives relitigating 10/7
wat
posted by lalochezia at 12:36 PM on December 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lalochezia:
In fact it's quite a bit like Spartacus and Nat Turner, both of whose rebellions did in fact involve a lot of incidental violence against civilians, regardless of the wishes of the people notionally in charge. Also quite a bit like the Haitian War of Independence and the ANC's revolution against Apartheid.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:16 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
In fact it's quite a bit like Spartacus and Nat Turner, both of whose rebellions did in fact involve a lot of incidental violence against civilians, regardless of the wishes of the people notionally in charge. Also quite a bit like the Haitian War of Independence and the ANC's revolution against Apartheid.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:16 PM on December 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Incidental? Nice massacre apologism in this thread
posted by lalochezia at 1:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
For those of us in the US, whatever shades of feeling we have, just must acknowledge our role in this. Our taxes pay for the bombs leveling neighborhoods in Gaza, the guns that execute young men, the bulldozers used to raise hospitals. The US sends more military funding to Israel than to any other country on earth, and we pay about 15% of their total military budget.
Join in a local protest or action. PYM, Palestinian Feminist Collective, JVP, CODE PINK, Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions, Labor for Palestine, Healthcare Workers for Palestine..
Find the people working on this in your neighborhood we have a moral obligation to act. Never again, for anyone.
posted by latkes at 1:22 PM on December 28, 2023 [28 favorites]
Join in a local protest or action. PYM, Palestinian Feminist Collective, JVP, CODE PINK, Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions, Labor for Palestine, Healthcare Workers for Palestine..
Find the people working on this in your neighborhood we have a moral obligation to act. Never again, for anyone.
posted by latkes at 1:22 PM on December 28, 2023 [28 favorites]
Lalochezia: yes, incidental. All of the expert analysis (including from Israeli sources) indicates that (a) Al-Qassam had no idea that the rave was in their path (it had been rescheduled!) and (b) much of the civilian violence was perpetrated by unaffiliated militants who came across the border in the chaos left by the main Al-Qassam force. Like it or not, the actual goals of Hamas on 10/7 were to attack legitimate military targets at and near the border.
To be clear: is it your contention that Nat Turner's revolt was illegitimate because his people also deliberately killed civilians? That the Haitian War of Independence and the end of South African Apartheid are illegitimate for the same reasons?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
To be clear: is it your contention that Nat Turner's revolt was illegitimate because his people also deliberately killed civilians? That the Haitian War of Independence and the end of South African Apartheid are illegitimate for the same reasons?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
"France, Spain, and Italy all announced their withdrawal from the US Command Structure for Operation Prosperity Guardian, adding that they will only conduct further Maritime Operations under the Command of NATO and or the European Union – not the United States."
best gotdamn news I heard all day.
posted by clavdivs at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
best gotdamn news I heard all day.
posted by clavdivs at 1:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Jerusalem, settlers carried out an actual pogrom against the Armenian Quarter this morning. There are reports that they used nerve gas.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:29 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:29 PM on December 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
clavdivs: that is good news! Especially since AnsarAllah is very clearly doing only and exactly what they have said they are doing: targeting Israeli commerce. Ships unaffiliated with Israel and not bound for Israeli ports are successfully transiting the Bab al-Mandab Strait without incident.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:38 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:38 PM on December 28, 2023
we will most likely spend a large chunk of the rest of our lives relitigating 10/7
wat
do you have an actual question? "people are going to argue over this historical event forever" does not seem like a controversial take
posted by nourishedbytime at 1:42 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
wat
do you have an actual question? "people are going to argue over this historical event forever" does not seem like a controversial take
posted by nourishedbytime at 1:42 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Jerusalem, settlers carried out an actual pogrom against the Armenian Quarter this morning. There are reports that they used nerve gas.
did you even read the article. Is it a pogrom... please tell me how this is pogrom. both Armenian and Muslim people were arrested in the incident and it seems like the Armenian Church sent a letter to the Israeli authorities on the matter.
I'm frankly a little tired of the hyperbole, false equivalence and moral comparisons dancing on the head of a pin in this thread, some, posited by you.
oh you're darn tooting it's good news because I don't want the french, italian, and the Spanish navies getting involved in our AO. I applaud that they want to have direction under the UN or EU which seems like buying time because how long will it take for those resolutions to become enforceable, how long will it take for those countries to spin up their Navy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
did you even read the article. Is it a pogrom... please tell me how this is pogrom. both Armenian and Muslim people were arrested in the incident and it seems like the Armenian Church sent a letter to the Israeli authorities on the matter.
I'm frankly a little tired of the hyperbole, false equivalence and moral comparisons dancing on the head of a pin in this thread, some, posited by you.
oh you're darn tooting it's good news because I don't want the french, italian, and the Spanish navies getting involved in our AO. I applaud that they want to have direction under the UN or EU which seems like buying time because how long will it take for those resolutions to become enforceable, how long will it take for those countries to spin up their Navy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on December 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
. (b) much of the civilian violence was perpetrated by unaffiliated militants who came across the border in the chaos left by the main Al-Qassam force......Like it or not, the actual goals of Hamas on 10/7 were to attack legitimate military targets at and near the border.
what the actual fuck is this apolgism? where is your evidence for such a breathtaking assertion?
I've been relentless in criticizing apologists for Israeli brutality and their massacres in gaza, and people have rightly shut these apologists down.
But painting hamas as a set of 'freedom fighters' - while they (and not the irregulars who "followed" them), are only doing their wikkle best..... while raping and machine gunning civilians, while coralling families into houses and throwing grenades to finish them off - all documented events......is beyond the pale.
---
To be clear: is it your contention that Nat Turner's revolt was illegitimate because his people also deliberately killed civilians? That the Haitian War of Independence and the end of South African Apartheid are illegitimate for the same reasons?
No. it's my contention that deliberate targeting of civilians under any circumstances is a fucking war crime and war crime apologists should be banned from this site.
You have been so blinded by Israel's evil actions that you wish to excuse Hamases evil actions. Rightly, the scale of israel's actions should receive the lions share of opproprium and action, but it doesn't excuse the abomination that hamas wrought.
posted by lalochezia at 2:07 PM on December 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
what the actual fuck is this apolgism? where is your evidence for such a breathtaking assertion?
I've been relentless in criticizing apologists for Israeli brutality and their massacres in gaza, and people have rightly shut these apologists down.
But painting hamas as a set of 'freedom fighters' - while they (and not the irregulars who "followed" them), are only doing their wikkle best..... while raping and machine gunning civilians, while coralling families into houses and throwing grenades to finish them off - all documented events......is beyond the pale.
---
To be clear: is it your contention that Nat Turner's revolt was illegitimate because his people also deliberately killed civilians? That the Haitian War of Independence and the end of South African Apartheid are illegitimate for the same reasons?
No. it's my contention that deliberate targeting of civilians under any circumstances is a fucking war crime and war crime apologists should be banned from this site.
You have been so blinded by Israel's evil actions that you wish to excuse Hamases evil actions. Rightly, the scale of israel's actions should receive the lions share of opproprium and action, but it doesn't excuse the abomination that hamas wrought.
posted by lalochezia at 2:07 PM on December 28, 2023 [22 favorites]
I have not excused anything. I have stated facts you don't like.
I wholeheartedly agree that everyone who commits war crimes (including members and/or commanders of Al-Qassam) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of international law! Israel and Hamas should allow neutral investigators to come into the affected areas and do independent investigations in order to ensure that that can happen!
Oh wait … there's only one party in this conflict that has the power to allow that. And funnily enough, that's the party that is absolutely refusing to do so!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wholeheartedly agree that everyone who commits war crimes (including members and/or commanders of Al-Qassam) should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of international law! Israel and Hamas should allow neutral investigators to come into the affected areas and do independent investigations in order to ensure that that can happen!
Oh wait … there's only one party in this conflict that has the power to allow that. And funnily enough, that's the party that is absolutely refusing to do so!
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:54 PM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Coming back was a mistake. I'm so sorry, cendawanita. You're fighting the good fight and these people don't deserve you.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:19 PM on December 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile, in Jerusalem, settlers carried out an actual pogrom against the Armenian Quarter this morning. There are reports that they used nerve gas.
The framing of this comment is a new low for these threads.
From the actual article:
posted by gwint at 3:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The framing of this comment is a new low for these threads.
From the actual article:
The Police confirmed that it received the letter and said that arrests were made on both sides - both Armenians and Muslims who allegedly carried out the attack. No one has been officially charged, the Police said.We are all horrified with what is happening in Gaza, but that doesn't justify flat out misinformation, bad faith framing, and low trust sources littering these threads. And I don't think I'm helping either, so I'll be bowing out as well.
“There was an unfortunate incident where some Arab Muslim men and some men from the Armenian community got into a brawl in the old city of Jerusalem,” Deputy Mayor Fleur Hassan-Nahoum told the Post. “Police came promptly to separate the parties, and arrests were made on both sides.
“The city of Jerusalem will not tolerate any criminal activity, whether religiously motivated or otherwise, and the police will prosecute those responsible,” she said.
posted by gwint at 3:28 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
My sincere apologies for not connecting the dots for people, and forgetting that folks here still think cops tell the truth sometimes. I implore you all to read the actual letter from the Armenian Patriarchate, which is in the article. They clearly state that the attack was by settler provocateurs, and that they believe the attack is a "criminal response" by the Israeli government to the lawsuit filed by the Patriarchate.
OF COURSE the police arrested "Armenians and Muslims" for getting into a "brawl". You think they arrest settlers? lmao.
Now i'm really out.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
OF COURSE the police arrested "Armenians and Muslims" for getting into a "brawl". You think they arrest settlers? lmao.
Now i'm really out.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:35 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Nerve gas?
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on December 28, 2023
well, I wish you wouldn't. I have alot of respect for the OP too. but I'll refrain my answer I get what your saying just not how your saying it which self-eponhysterical.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on December 28, 2023
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on December 28, 2023
Mod note: Folks, this thread is becoming increasingly derailed. Please step away from the thread if you have found yourself in a back-and-forth with other users and are commenting frequently. This is not the place for that. Please leave room in the thread for others to participate in good faith.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:05 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 4:05 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
I would just like to repost this from the tail end of the last thread.
Ethnic cleansing
Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told his supporters that he is working on finding countries ready to "absorb" Palestinians from Gaza.
The Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom (The Bibiton) said Netanyahu made the comments at a meeting of his Likud party on Monday, in which he sought to clarify Israel's plans for after the war had ended.
posted by adamvasco at 4:17 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing
Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has told his supporters that he is working on finding countries ready to "absorb" Palestinians from Gaza.
The Israeli newspaper Israel Hayom (The Bibiton) said Netanyahu made the comments at a meeting of his Likud party on Monday, in which he sought to clarify Israel's plans for after the war had ended.
posted by adamvasco at 4:17 PM on December 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
It's not been a secret from even before this war that Bebe would like to drive everyone in Gaza into Egypt and claim the land for Israel. One of the main reasons why Gaza is an open air prison is that Bebe wants to do this and Egypt doesn't want to absorb those people so the only border point that isn't with Israel or the ocean is very tightly controlled.
This entire thing is horrifying. In the sense of the word that means "inspiring horror".
posted by hippybear at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
This entire thing is horrifying. In the sense of the word that means "inspiring horror".
posted by hippybear at 4:27 PM on December 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Lalochezia: yes, incidental. All of the expert analysis (including from Israeli sources) indicates that (a) Al-Qassam had no idea that the rave was in their path (it had been rescheduled!) and (b) much of the civilian violence was perpetrated by unaffiliated militants who came across the border in the chaos left by the main Al-Qassam force. Like it or not, the actual goals of Hamas on 10/7 were to attack legitimate military targets at and near the border.
Especially coming just a few comment after the one that linked the article about sexual violence, this has to be one of, if not the,, grossest and flagrantly ignorant paragraphs I've ever read here.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Especially coming just a few comment after the one that linked the article about sexual violence, this has to be one of, if not the,, grossest and flagrantly ignorant paragraphs I've ever read here.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:49 PM on December 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
I've just been watching comedians:
Gianmarco Soresi
Sammy Obeid
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gianmarco Soresi
Sammy Obeid
posted by clawsoon at 5:11 PM on December 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been relentless in criticizing apologists for Israeli brutality and their massacres in gaza, and people have rightly shut these apologists down.
Have they? There's a tremendous amount of IDF and genocide apologism in these threads and many posters continually writing outright lies about the Palestinian people and their history to mislead people. This place leans far closer towards the side of "maybe the people doing the genocide actually have a decent point!" than any other leftist or even liberal space I'm in. It's pretty fucking appalling that many of the racist and genocide apologist comments that have been made over the past few threads have been allowed to stand and would not be if this was about any other issue.
Especially coming just a few comment after the one that linked the article about sexual violence, this has to be one of, if not the,, grossest and flagrantly ignorant paragraphs I've ever read here.
Wow, as a person of color who's been on this site for about fifteen years, I am so jealous that this is the worst ignorance you've had to deal with here. That must be so nice for you. I can't imagine what it would like to be Palestinian on this thread (which I'm pretty confident is why we have practically no Arab or Palestinian posters).
posted by armadillo1224 at 9:16 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Have they? There's a tremendous amount of IDF and genocide apologism in these threads and many posters continually writing outright lies about the Palestinian people and their history to mislead people. This place leans far closer towards the side of "maybe the people doing the genocide actually have a decent point!" than any other leftist or even liberal space I'm in. It's pretty fucking appalling that many of the racist and genocide apologist comments that have been made over the past few threads have been allowed to stand and would not be if this was about any other issue.
Especially coming just a few comment after the one that linked the article about sexual violence, this has to be one of, if not the,, grossest and flagrantly ignorant paragraphs I've ever read here.
Wow, as a person of color who's been on this site for about fifteen years, I am so jealous that this is the worst ignorance you've had to deal with here. That must be so nice for you. I can't imagine what it would like to be Palestinian on this thread (which I'm pretty confident is why we have practically no Arab or Palestinian posters).
posted by armadillo1224 at 9:16 PM on December 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
What I thought was interesting about that sexual violence article was the implication that no evidence was collected because there was never going to be any attempt to discover the actual perpetrators. No need, when every civilian and child in Gaza will be punished instead.
If I could click my fingers and change the world, every militant who did war crimes would instantly be in court with a full spread of evidence before them. Along with every settler and IDF member who's ever been party to any such crimes, crimes against humanity, whatever.
But that's not Israel's goal here, working towards that would be right and correct. The actual goal is collective punishment of Palestinians and ethnic cleansing. To that end, they cover up the war crimes of their easily-identifiable and clearly-subject-to-military-regulation soldiers, and engage in mass slaughter of "military-aged males" and anyone who has the misfortune to share an apartment block or crowded car park full of refugees.
There's a world in which the NYT published that article because they want actual justice for the women who suffered, not because they think collective punishment of Palestinians *is* justice, but I don't think we're living in it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:43 PM on December 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
If I could click my fingers and change the world, every militant who did war crimes would instantly be in court with a full spread of evidence before them. Along with every settler and IDF member who's ever been party to any such crimes, crimes against humanity, whatever.
But that's not Israel's goal here, working towards that would be right and correct. The actual goal is collective punishment of Palestinians and ethnic cleansing. To that end, they cover up the war crimes of their easily-identifiable and clearly-subject-to-military-regulation soldiers, and engage in mass slaughter of "military-aged males" and anyone who has the misfortune to share an apartment block or crowded car park full of refugees.
There's a world in which the NYT published that article because they want actual justice for the women who suffered, not because they think collective punishment of Palestinians *is* justice, but I don't think we're living in it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:43 PM on December 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
I'm having trouble understanding all the numerous comments on that NYT sexual violence article (which was, it goes without saying, very difficult to read and describes evil, horrendous acts that any good person would condemn) to the effect of "where are all the women's rights groups?" and "why isn't anyone speaking up about this, when we have so many pro-Palestine marches happening on college campuses??"
Are people truly not grasping that the massive key difference is that the genocide in Gaza is ongoing, while the violence of October 7th was limited to that one day? The massive condemnations by women's rights activists would be as effective as announcing that the sky is blue--of course this was horrific.
But the thousands of civilian and child deaths in Gaza, continuing to this day, are somehow up for debate, so that's why there are protests. And I guess the protests aren't bending over backwards to condemn Hamas because it seems so damn obvious that what happened on October 7th was wrong. I don't know how many more times it needs to be said before people are satisfied that Hamas has been adequately condemned.
posted by knotty knots at 9:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Are people truly not grasping that the massive key difference is that the genocide in Gaza is ongoing, while the violence of October 7th was limited to that one day? The massive condemnations by women's rights activists would be as effective as announcing that the sky is blue--of course this was horrific.
But the thousands of civilian and child deaths in Gaza, continuing to this day, are somehow up for debate, so that's why there are protests. And I guess the protests aren't bending over backwards to condemn Hamas because it seems so damn obvious that what happened on October 7th was wrong. I don't know how many more times it needs to be said before people are satisfied that Hamas has been adequately condemned.
posted by knotty knots at 9:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
The Arab despots will pay lots of lip service, because they can let their people blow off steam marching in solidarity with Palestinians as a safety valve to keep their hold on power—but they're not going to let a single refugee in, both because they already have too many mouths to feed, and also because of the long history of Palestinian refugees causing all sorts of civil unrest.
Apart from the casual racism of this comment, I'm so, so tired of the promulgation of this idea that other Middle Eastern states have a responsibility to let Gazans in. You know who has a responsibility to let Gazans in? Israel, which made them refugees in in 1947-49, and has now made them refugees again. "The refugees from the 1940s who are still living plus their descendants make up about 81% of Gaza's 2.1 million people." Washington Post. UNRWA. Solve the 'Gazan refugee problem': give them the right to return to what is now Israel.
posted by happyfrog at 9:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
Apart from the casual racism of this comment, I'm so, so tired of the promulgation of this idea that other Middle Eastern states have a responsibility to let Gazans in. You know who has a responsibility to let Gazans in? Israel, which made them refugees in in 1947-49, and has now made them refugees again. "The refugees from the 1940s who are still living plus their descendants make up about 81% of Gaza's 2.1 million people." Washington Post. UNRWA. Solve the 'Gazan refugee problem': give them the right to return to what is now Israel.
posted by happyfrog at 9:57 PM on December 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
I'm having trouble understanding all the numerous comments on that NYT sexual violence article (which was, it goes without saying, very difficult to read and describes evil, horrendous acts that any good person would condemn) to the effect of "where are all the women's rights groups?" and "why isn't anyone speaking up about this, when we have so many pro-Palestine marches happening on college campuses??"
The problem is that the people making these sorts of comments either don't or pretend they don't understand the idea of critical support. That you can think Hamas is an irredeemable, hateful organisation and still not support what's happening in Gaza.
It's exactly the same line of argument as all of the stuff about how welcoming Israel is to *some* gay people, the vegan leather IDF boots and all the pinkwashing. It's not about women's rights, it's about Israel being the "better side", the "most moral army". The implication is that we're supposed to weigh up "both sides", and decide that the IDF are the good guys and stop paying attention to what actually is happening to people right now, today.
Pregnant mothers in Gaza reportedly facing cesareans without anaesthetic, emergency hysterectomies and death Warning: This story contains distressing content.
The sound of women and newborn babies screaming in pain is constant inside Gaza's hospitals.
Amid the raging war, women are reportedly giving birth on rubble-filled floors, undergoing emergency caesareans with no anaesthetic or pain relief, and even dying after childbirth due to a lack of medical supplies.
Despite few functioning hospitals still in operation in Gaza, it's estimated 180 babies are being born into the war zone every day.
The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) has warned women, children and newborns are disproportionately bearing the brunt of the war.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:51 AM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
The problem is that the people making these sorts of comments either don't or pretend they don't understand the idea of critical support. That you can think Hamas is an irredeemable, hateful organisation and still not support what's happening in Gaza.
It's exactly the same line of argument as all of the stuff about how welcoming Israel is to *some* gay people, the vegan leather IDF boots and all the pinkwashing. It's not about women's rights, it's about Israel being the "better side", the "most moral army". The implication is that we're supposed to weigh up "both sides", and decide that the IDF are the good guys and stop paying attention to what actually is happening to people right now, today.
Pregnant mothers in Gaza reportedly facing cesareans without anaesthetic, emergency hysterectomies and death Warning: This story contains distressing content.
The sound of women and newborn babies screaming in pain is constant inside Gaza's hospitals.
Amid the raging war, women are reportedly giving birth on rubble-filled floors, undergoing emergency caesareans with no anaesthetic or pain relief, and even dying after childbirth due to a lack of medical supplies.
Despite few functioning hospitals still in operation in Gaza, it's estimated 180 babies are being born into the war zone every day.
The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) has warned women, children and newborns are disproportionately bearing the brunt of the war.
posted by Audreynachrome at 1:51 AM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
My read on Biden (based on what he himself has said in interviews) is that as a rule, he believes in calling people in, rather than calling them out. E.g., his delicate handling of Joe Manchin that got the latter to sign some massive, amazingly progressive legislative packages... instead of publicly threatening Manchin, as many progressives wanted him to.This might work when you're on the same team and have to build an enduring relationship, but in this case both of these are doubtful propositions. The world and Bibi pays attention to what Biden says in public, not private. Israel is deeply reliant on US backing (see the UN vetoes, munitions supplied, deterrence against Hezbollah and Iran) and instead of using that leverage, Biden is throwing his hands up and pretending there's nothing he can do.
Biden's initial strategy after Oct. 7 was to state his strong support for Israel, and privately caution Netanyahu against overreach. He maintained this position longer than many people wanted him to, but it did result, temporarily, in an unofficial ceasefire.
After Israel invaded Lebanon, Reagan eventually called Begin and just told him he had to stop. Begin immediately ordered Ariel Sharon to halt the attack. Biden can and should do the same now.
________________________
As a potential derail, I'm just going to say that I don't believe in disinformation. It's not that I don't think there are actors whose interests don't align with ours trying to convince us to believe in things that suit them - I think it's a fundamentally undefinable and useless categorization that basically boils down to "somebody I don't like said something I disagree with". Labeling something as "disinformation" is incredibly subjective and it's impossible to neutrally apply. The vast majority of discourse around alleged "disinformation" revolves around whether it matches the official narrative, not whether it is true or not (basically, it's the liberal equivalent of calling something politically incorrect in the original sense). It's not a coincidence the people most invested in this idea are societal epistemic gatekeepers like traditional media and academics. At this point, the furor around disinformation probably has a greater impact than the thing itself.
posted by ndr at 2:14 AM on December 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
For me, whether or not any particular piece of information counts as disinformation has very little do with whether or not I like whoever I got it from.
And I disagree that it's undefinable. Disinformation is deliberate lies framed and presented in ways plausible and engaging enough to make them spread quickly and prompt reactions that advantage the originators before scrupulous fact-checking has any chance to make a difference.
Framing the idea of disinformation as fundamentally about differences of opinion is a very post-truth move.
And yes, almost every geopolitical "official narrative" contains utterly indefensible quantities of disinformation. The official narrative out of Israel at present is very close to 100%.
posted by flabdablet at 3:00 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
And I disagree that it's undefinable. Disinformation is deliberate lies framed and presented in ways plausible and engaging enough to make them spread quickly and prompt reactions that advantage the originators before scrupulous fact-checking has any chance to make a difference.
Framing the idea of disinformation as fundamentally about differences of opinion is a very post-truth move.
And yes, almost every geopolitical "official narrative" contains utterly indefensible quantities of disinformation. The official narrative out of Israel at present is very close to 100%.
posted by flabdablet at 3:00 AM on December 29, 2023 [10 favorites]
Tarik Cyril Amar: Come and See - Again:
Perverse highlights, such as letting infants starve to death and decompose in an intensive-care ward round off a picture of sick murderousness and callousness that competes with Klimov’s village-burning monsters. Especially since we also have Israeli officers (and again, not only officers, but civilians, too, again and again) openly “justifying” the murder of children, because, in these perpetrators’ view, too, complete “security” by total “victory” requires hitting “the nursery.”posted by kmt at 7:57 AM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
And those who still won’t see, process, or acknowledge these facts – out of their evil siding with the perpetrators, cowardice, or general, careerist lack of moral spine – they deserve no more arguments, only contempt: This is not “merely” war with “side effects”; it is a deliberately genocidal war, fully within Zionism’s long, indeed essential, tradition of ethnic cleansing and massive lying.
South Africa files case at ICJ accusing Israel of ‘genocidal acts’ in Gaza
Israel, which has been accused of meting out collective punishment on Palestinians, has rejected the case at the UN court.
posted by adamvasco at 11:54 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel, which has been accused of meting out collective punishment on Palestinians, has rejected the case at the UN court.
posted by adamvasco at 11:54 AM on December 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
You know, when South Africa of all places is giving your nation the moral stinkeye, maybe it's time to review your gameplan?
posted by delfin at 12:15 PM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by delfin at 12:15 PM on December 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
UNICEF: Facing life in the Gaza Strip with a new disability:
Ghazal suffered a severe leg injury that wiped her smile off her face. Given the level of destruction and security concerns, the medical team could not reach her. A doctor living in her neighborhood performed a makeshift surgery to stop the bleeding from her leg.posted by kmt at 1:27 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
As in many other cases in the Gaza Strip, the doctor had to carry out the surgery in inadequate conditions and without anesthesia due to the lack of medical supplies and equipment. The doctor managed to stop the bleeding. But her leg was infected. After several days, finally reaching al Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis, the medical team was confronted with a terrible decision: they needed to amputate Ghazal’s leg.
And I disagree that it's undefinable. Disinformation is deliberate lies framed and presented in ways plausible and engaging enough to make them spread quickly and prompt reactions that advantage the originators before scrupulous fact-checking has any chance to make a difference.Maybe you can unerringly determine what is true or not, but the rest of us mortals certainly are fallible. It takes a remarkable amount of arrogance to declare oneself the arbiter of truth. It sure seems like in practice disinformation discourse is just a way for people to position themselves as correct without having to address any underlying claims. Just in this thread we have somebody accusing others of "misinformation" regarding the attacks on the Armenian Quarter in Jerusalem. And I suppose if Russia Today got around to amplifying it, it would then become "disinformation" - no determination of truth required. Maybe there is somebody being "post-truth" here, but it's certainly not me.
Framing the idea of disinformation as fundamentally about differences of opinion is a very post-truth move.
posted by ndr at 3:58 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
The concept of disinformation may be less helpful in the context of this war, or even the I/P conflict generally; but given all of the abuses of social media in recent election cycles (and politics generally) and concern over deepfakes and etc it seems absolutely detached from reality to proclaim that disinformation isn't a thing, or an important thing, and maybe more important than ever.
(Even on more frivolous levels, like abuse of social media to market products that are harmful in a bold variety of ways to uninformed consumers; often kids or the unsophisticated.)
Or maybe we should just be chill with the Great Replacement Theory or Moms For Liberty pedo-jacketing every trans person? Hey, it's just an opinion, right? It can't be more or less true than anything else? What do you mean it's demonstrably false that the Civil War was about states rights and northern aggression? I'm sure these sources from The Daily Wire and Infowars are as valid as your boring-ass academic bibliography.
There are limits to post-structuralism and post-modernism, as steeped as I am in them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:44 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Even on more frivolous levels, like abuse of social media to market products that are harmful in a bold variety of ways to uninformed consumers; often kids or the unsophisticated.)
Or maybe we should just be chill with the Great Replacement Theory or Moms For Liberty pedo-jacketing every trans person? Hey, it's just an opinion, right? It can't be more or less true than anything else? What do you mean it's demonstrably false that the Civil War was about states rights and northern aggression? I'm sure these sources from The Daily Wire and Infowars are as valid as your boring-ass academic bibliography.
There are limits to post-structuralism and post-modernism, as steeped as I am in them.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:44 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Or, more simply, is manufactured consent actually just consent?
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:50 PM on December 29, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:50 PM on December 29, 2023
Fair point, but the fact that the journalists are dying at intense rates (we've breached 100 a couple of days back) + historical dismissal of Palestinian voices + not-timely-at-all western reporting for institutional/societal reasons does make the nature of news coverage in this decades-long occupation easily dismissable based on established heuristics. Hence, the way I've been trying to share news/articles with labelled sources and my general estimation of why. Opportunistic propa and dis/misinfo abounds, yes, but I remembered early days of the siege when even lefty Israelis I know were dismissing the provenance of outfits like Mondoweiss and Al-Jazeera for understandable reasons for them. But I can sideeye NYT's US reporting for certain beats while recognizing its international desk is still incomparable. BBC too, despite the TERF workforce. I think westerners need to get up to speed on how to figure out what's propa, partisan, or tankie.
(To that point, i understand the earlier urge to comment with a dot for this thread, but the individuals may be dead, but the Palestinian people are not. Don't be too eagerly western in memorializing a brave and dead people the way Native Americans are talked about still.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 PM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
(To that point, i understand the earlier urge to comment with a dot for this thread, but the individuals may be dead, but the Palestinian people are not. Don't be too eagerly western in memorializing a brave and dead people the way Native Americans are talked about still.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:04 PM on December 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Who Will We Be After the War in Gaza Is Over? by Michael Sfard. Haaretz.
....And what will become of a society whose media outlets, which provide it with information about its deeds, have refrained for over 10 weeks from bringing even a single interview – a single one! – with a resident of Gaza to tell what's happening to them; who censor the pictures of the dead children and the weeping mothers, the children that we killed and the mothers whose bereavement we caused? The Israeli TV channels are shaping our collective perceptions not only by means of what they show, but also, and perhaps mainly, by means of what they're hiding from us.
posted by lalochezia at 6:27 PM on December 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
....And what will become of a society whose media outlets, which provide it with information about its deeds, have refrained for over 10 weeks from bringing even a single interview – a single one! – with a resident of Gaza to tell what's happening to them; who censor the pictures of the dead children and the weeping mothers, the children that we killed and the mothers whose bereavement we caused? The Israeli TV channels are shaping our collective perceptions not only by means of what they show, but also, and perhaps mainly, by means of what they're hiding from us.
posted by lalochezia at 6:27 PM on December 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
While acknowledging multiple things can be bad at the same time, its interesting to see what the UN Security Council condemns Russia's air assault on Ukraine draws criticism at UN Security Council meeting. Meanwhile, reported on the same day from the same site More than 180 Palestinians killed as Israel forges on with Gaza assault.
posted by phigmov at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 7:04 PM on December 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe you can unerringly determine what is true or not, but the rest of us mortals certainly are fallible. It takes a remarkable amount of arrogance to declare oneself the arbiter of truth. ...
Unerringly determining quickly what is true or not is often infeasible.
For example, some of the lefty media I favour has recently been showing me a clip of what appears to be a group of little Israeli school kids literally singing the praises of the total destruction of indigenous Palestine.
I was as appalled by seeing that as any reasonable person could be expected to be, but I have not and will not share links to this material because it serves no purpose but to appal, and there's already more than enough easily verifiable news coming out of the Middle East to oversaturate anybody's capacity for that.
Even if it later proves to be the case that there genuinely are little Israeli school kids being routinely taught that genocide is not only acceptable but laudable, the way this specific clip is framed and the fact of its having been put into circulation right when Likud's genocide is in full swing is clearly designed to leave any viewer who retains the basic decency to be disgusted by that genocide with an impression that Israeli society is irredeemably rotten from top to bottom.
I don't believe that such is the case for any society. You can characterise that judgement call as arrogant, if it makes you feel better. No skin off my nose.
Now, I don't know where that clip came from. I don't know if the subtitles accurately reflect what the kids are actually singing. I don't know when it was filmed or in what context. But whether or not I am personally able to determine unerringly that that specific clip accurately depicts what it purports to has nothing to do with the demonstrable fact that the deliberate spreading of deliberate lies - that is, disinformation - has long been a specific weapon in the propagandist's armoury.
I do know that other clips, in other contexts, similarly designed to provoke a belief that the society purportedly represented in them is similarly wholly contemptible, have seen wide circulation before being definitively shown to have been not only framed for propaganda purposes but wholly non-factual from the get-go. "Dancing crowds" is a frequently seen motif.
That doesn't make me "the arbiter of truth"; it just shows I have a bit of basic media literacy.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 PM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Unerringly determining quickly what is true or not is often infeasible.
For example, some of the lefty media I favour has recently been showing me a clip of what appears to be a group of little Israeli school kids literally singing the praises of the total destruction of indigenous Palestine.
I was as appalled by seeing that as any reasonable person could be expected to be, but I have not and will not share links to this material because it serves no purpose but to appal, and there's already more than enough easily verifiable news coming out of the Middle East to oversaturate anybody's capacity for that.
Even if it later proves to be the case that there genuinely are little Israeli school kids being routinely taught that genocide is not only acceptable but laudable, the way this specific clip is framed and the fact of its having been put into circulation right when Likud's genocide is in full swing is clearly designed to leave any viewer who retains the basic decency to be disgusted by that genocide with an impression that Israeli society is irredeemably rotten from top to bottom.
I don't believe that such is the case for any society. You can characterise that judgement call as arrogant, if it makes you feel better. No skin off my nose.
Now, I don't know where that clip came from. I don't know if the subtitles accurately reflect what the kids are actually singing. I don't know when it was filmed or in what context. But whether or not I am personally able to determine unerringly that that specific clip accurately depicts what it purports to has nothing to do with the demonstrable fact that the deliberate spreading of deliberate lies - that is, disinformation - has long been a specific weapon in the propagandist's armoury.
I do know that other clips, in other contexts, similarly designed to provoke a belief that the society purportedly represented in them is similarly wholly contemptible, have seen wide circulation before being definitively shown to have been not only framed for propaganda purposes but wholly non-factual from the get-go. "Dancing crowds" is a frequently seen motif.
That doesn't make me "the arbiter of truth"; it just shows I have a bit of basic media literacy.
posted by flabdablet at 10:40 PM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The essence of disinformation is that the person constructing it knows it's a pack of lies. No other arbiter of truth is required to characterize it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:49 PM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 10:49 PM on December 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
No other arbiter of truth is required to characterize it.
Except that the person deciding what goes in the disinformation box and what doesn't, they are functionally acting as such an arbiter. You can call it media literacy if you like, but you're still choosing to trust e.g. The NYT and not al-Jazeera, or the RT but not Haaretz, or whatever position you take: you are taking a position when you dismiss some but not all reporting.
posted by Dysk at 12:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
Except that the person deciding what goes in the disinformation box and what doesn't, they are functionally acting as such an arbiter. You can call it media literacy if you like, but you're still choosing to trust e.g. The NYT and not al-Jazeera, or the RT but not Haaretz, or whatever position you take: you are taking a position when you dismiss some but not all reporting.
posted by Dysk at 12:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
The concept of disinformation may be less helpful in the context of this war, or even the I/P conflict generally; but given all of the abuses of social media in recent election cycles (and politics generally) and concern over deepfakes and etc it seems absolutely detached from reality to proclaim that disinformation isn't a thing, or an important thing, and maybe more important than ever.If it's not helpful in this context, in what context is it helpful? I'm still not seeing what "disinformation" adds that "lies" or "propaganda" doesn't cover adequately. I certainly think a lot of narratives you consider disinformation that need to be fought - I just don't think slapping the label on it is useful.
Unerringly determining quickly what is true or not is often infeasible.Sometimes doing it at all is infeasible. Nobody with a historical perspective can fail to appreciate how many things we collectively believed as true turn out to be complete bullshit, and that's just for objective reality, not squishy things like political value judgments.
The essence of disinformation is that the person constructing it knows it's a pack of lies. No other arbiter of truth is required to characterize it.I'm sorry, you're offloading the task of determining whether something is true to the person saying it? Putting aside the obvious issue with that, if the person wholeheartedly believes it is true does it then cease to be disinformation, regardless of its relationship with objective reality? Even supposing I accept this definition, I can't trace the originator(s) of pieces of information or read their minds, how is one supposed to make this determination? You can't be seriously suggesting I should grab somebody by the ankles and shake them until they give up and admit it was all a deliberate lie.
posted by ndr at 2:04 AM on December 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Israel's Gaza bombing campaign is the most destructive of this century, analysts say
posted by clawsoon at 4:29 AM on December 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 4:29 AM on December 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
South Africa's submission to the ICJ. Not for the faint of heart: 84 pages of dense legal text with all the relevant facts listed, sourced, verified. Not just a press release or a journalistic piece.
posted by kmt at 5:41 AM on December 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by kmt at 5:41 AM on December 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Here's a nice review of a book about the long, ugly history of the ugly alliance between Israel, apartheid South Africa, and the major Jewish organizations in the US (featuring, unsurprisingly, the ADL):
Israel’s Most Illicit Affair: A new book reveals that Israel’s secret relationship with apartheid South Africa went far deeper than previously understood.
Israel’s Most Illicit Affair: A new book reveals that Israel’s secret relationship with apartheid South Africa went far deeper than previously understood.
History is a great teacher, but sometimes it packs a nasty sense of irony. A case in point: South African Prime Minister John Vorster’s visit to the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem in April 1976, where he laid a wreath to the victims of the German Reich he once extolled.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:17 AM on December 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
It’s bad enough that a former Nazi sympathizer was treated like an honored guest by the Jewish state. Even worse was the purpose behind Vorster’s trip to Israel: to cement the extensive military relationship between Israel and the apartheid regime, a partnership that violated international law and illicitly provided the white-minority government with the weaponry and technology to help sustain its grip on power and its oppression of the black majority over two decades.
Like many illicit love affairs, the back-door relationship between Israel and the apartheid regime was secret, duplicitous, thrilling for the parties involved — and ultimately damaging to both. Each insisted at the time that theirs was just a minor flirtation, with few regrets or expressions of remorse. Inevitably it ended badly, tainting everyone it touched, including leaders of American Jewish organizations who shredded their credibility by endorsing and parroting the blatant falsehoods they were fed by Israeli officials. And it still hovers like a toxic cloud over Israel’s international reputation, providing ammunition to those who use the comparison between Israel’s 43-year military rule over Palestinians and the now-defunct system of white domination known as apartheid to seek to delegitimize the Jewish state.
[. . .]
From the start, spokesmen for American Jewish organizations acted as apologists or dupes for Israel’s arms sales. Moshe Decter, a respected director of research for the American Jewish Committee, wrote in the New York Times in 1976 that Israel’s arms trade with South Africa was "dwarfed into insignificance" compared to that of other countries and said that to claim otherwise was "rank cynicism, rampant hypocrisy and anti-Semitic prejudice." In a March 1986 debate televised on PBS, Rabbi David Saperstein, a leader of the Reform Jewish movement and outspoken opponent of apartheid, claimed Israeli involvement with South Africa was negligible. He conceded that there may have been arms sales during the rightist Likud years in power from 1977 to 1984, but stated that under Shimon Peres, who served as prime minister between 1984 and 1986, "there have been no new arms sales." In fact, some of the biggest military contracts and cooperative ventures were signed during Peres’s watch.
The Anti-Defamation League participated in a blatant propaganda campaign against Nelson Mandela and the ANC in the mid 1980s and employed an alleged "fact-finder" named Roy Bullock to spy on the anti-apartheid campaign in the United States — a service he was simultaneously performing for the South African government. The ADL defended the white regime’s purported constitutional reforms while denouncing the ANC as "totalitarian, anti-humane, anti-democratic, anti-Israel, and anti-American." (In fairness, the ADL later changed its tune. After his release in 1990, Mandela met in Geneva with a number of American Jewish leaders, including ADL president Abe Foxman, who emerged to call the ANC leader "a great hero of freedom.")
The Hamas Pogrom Demonstrates That Zionism Has Failed, Says Israeli Historian Moshe Zimmermann
A pioneering Israeli scholar of German history, Prof. Moshe Zimmermann looks back to 1930s Europe in order to understand where Israel is headed
posted by adamvasco at 6:31 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
A pioneering Israeli scholar of German history, Prof. Moshe Zimmermann looks back to 1930s Europe in order to understand where Israel is headed
posted by adamvasco at 6:31 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I find it at least a little ironic that in this, a time in which Israel's motives and morals in bombing Gaza into utter submission are deeply in question, its greatest defender on the world stage is a nation with a long and checkered history of systemic racial, ethnic and religious discrimination, one known for waging war against the original inhabitants of the land and driving the survivors into reservations, and one that decided within living history that deliberately inflicting 100k+ civilian casualties was an acceptable price to pay for ending a war.
posted by delfin at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by delfin at 8:47 AM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
How is that irony?
posted by flabdablet at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:13 AM on December 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
From clawsoon's link, above:
The Financial Times did a statistical analysis that compared Gaza to the Allied bombing campaign over Germany during the Second World War.
Three cities in Germany were effectively destroyed from the air during that war: Cologne, Hamburg and Dresden. In Hamburg and Dresden, a mix of high explosives and incendiary bombs created the notorious "firestorm" conditions that caused streets to melt.
Data analyzed by Scher and Van Den Hoek shows that by Dec. 5, the percentage of Gaza's buildings that had been damaged or destroyed already had surpassed the destruction in Cologne and Dresden, and was approaching the level of Hamburg.
.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:11 PM on December 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Financial Times did a statistical analysis that compared Gaza to the Allied bombing campaign over Germany during the Second World War.
Three cities in Germany were effectively destroyed from the air during that war: Cologne, Hamburg and Dresden. In Hamburg and Dresden, a mix of high explosives and incendiary bombs created the notorious "firestorm" conditions that caused streets to melt.
Data analyzed by Scher and Van Den Hoek shows that by Dec. 5, the percentage of Gaza's buildings that had been damaged or destroyed already had surpassed the destruction in Cologne and Dresden, and was approaching the level of Hamburg.
.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:11 PM on December 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
'The Mob'
"These are the faceless horrors
that people my nightmares
from whom I turn to wakefulness
for comforting
yet here I find confronting me
the fear-blanked facelessness
and saurian-lidded stares
of my irrational terrors
from whom in dreams I run.
O my people
O my people
what have you done
and where shall I find comforting
to smooth awake the mask of fear
restore your face, your faith, feeling, tears.
— Dennis Brutus
posted by clavdivs at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
"These are the faceless horrors
that people my nightmares
from whom I turn to wakefulness
for comforting
yet here I find confronting me
the fear-blanked facelessness
and saurian-lidded stares
of my irrational terrors
from whom in dreams I run.
O my people
O my people
what have you done
and where shall I find comforting
to smooth awake the mask of fear
restore your face, your faith, feeling, tears.
— Dennis Brutus
posted by clavdivs at 12:50 PM on December 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
It’s not just bullets and bombs. I have never seen health organisations as worried as they are about disease in Gaza
Ultimately, unless something changes, the world faces the prospect of almost a quarter of Gaza’s 2 million population - close to half- a million human beings - dying within a year. These would be largely deaths from preventable health causes and the collapse of the medical system. It’s a crude estimate, but one that is data-driven, using the terrifyingly real numbers of deaths in previous and comparable conflicts.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:55 AM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
It didn't hit me with a paywall, so hopefully this link remains accessible: The Economist's article on the state of the war in Gaza as the year ends:
Two months after Israel’s ground offensive began on October 27th the IDF has achieved mixed results. Of Hamas’s 24 battalions, 12 were based in and around Gaza city. The IDF reckons most of these have in effect been “dismantled”—meaning that most of Hamas’s commanders and fighters have been killed, badly wounded or captured. The IDF is battling against another nine of Hamas’s battalions (a further three have not yet been involved in the fighting).
“By now Hamas is no longer operating as a military organisation,” says an Israeli intelligence officer. “Most of its command structure is gone. But it still has a large number of fighters who have reverted to guerrilla mode. They emerge from the tunnels in small numbers, trying to ambush our forces.” The IDF has succeeded in ending most of Hamas’s rocket-launches at Israeli cities.
...
However, the IDF has yet to achieve its two key aims: to kill or capture Hamas’s top leaders and to rescue the remaining Israeli hostages. And while a large majority of Israelis still support the war, signs of frustration are starting to creep in. “It was clear from the start that it would take a campaign of many months to achieve the war aims,” says Tamir Hayman, an influential former IDF general and military-intelligence commander who now heads Tel Aviv University’s Institute of National Security Studies. “But unrealistic expectations mean there’s now a feeling of disappointment.”
posted by Dip Flash at 9:39 AM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Two months after Israel’s ground offensive began on October 27th the IDF has achieved mixed results. Of Hamas’s 24 battalions, 12 were based in and around Gaza city. The IDF reckons most of these have in effect been “dismantled”—meaning that most of Hamas’s commanders and fighters have been killed, badly wounded or captured. The IDF is battling against another nine of Hamas’s battalions (a further three have not yet been involved in the fighting).
“By now Hamas is no longer operating as a military organisation,” says an Israeli intelligence officer. “Most of its command structure is gone. But it still has a large number of fighters who have reverted to guerrilla mode. They emerge from the tunnels in small numbers, trying to ambush our forces.” The IDF has succeeded in ending most of Hamas’s rocket-launches at Israeli cities.
...
However, the IDF has yet to achieve its two key aims: to kill or capture Hamas’s top leaders and to rescue the remaining Israeli hostages. And while a large majority of Israelis still support the war, signs of frustration are starting to creep in. “It was clear from the start that it would take a campaign of many months to achieve the war aims,” says Tamir Hayman, an influential former IDF general and military-intelligence commander who now heads Tel Aviv University’s Institute of National Security Studies. “But unrealistic expectations mean there’s now a feeling of disappointment.”
posted by Dip Flash at 9:39 AM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking something over and I'm coming to a really uncomfortable conclusion. Can someone check my reasoning here?
1) Public opinion in Israel favors continuing to kill people in Gaza and, to at a lesser rate, in the West Bank until there aren't any more people left to kill and/or the entire area is completely taken over by Israelis and "settled".
2) No polity is willing, or able if willing, to intervene in a military way to make Israel stop the mass murder.
3) Since there are no good options and the maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped the morally correct choice is to find the least evil of the options that remain.
4) The least evil of the options that remain is to actively assist Israel in it's ambition of ethnic cleansing and assist in resettling all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who wish to leave. Further, if Israel begins a program of capturing and deporting Palestinians the moral choice is to take in those forcibly expelled people and assist them in resettling.
Did I actually get that right or is there something major I'm missing?
Are we really at a point where the least bad option is to actively aid a malicious power in executing an ethnic cleansing?
If so, does anyone know of an organization doing that I can donate to? Because I've been donating to Doctors Without Borders, and that's never a bad option, but if there's a group working to evacuate Gaza I think at this point its better to direct my money to them.
posted by sotonohito at 1:03 PM on December 31, 2023
1) Public opinion in Israel favors continuing to kill people in Gaza and, to at a lesser rate, in the West Bank until there aren't any more people left to kill and/or the entire area is completely taken over by Israelis and "settled".
2) No polity is willing, or able if willing, to intervene in a military way to make Israel stop the mass murder.
3) Since there are no good options and the maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped the morally correct choice is to find the least evil of the options that remain.
4) The least evil of the options that remain is to actively assist Israel in it's ambition of ethnic cleansing and assist in resettling all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who wish to leave. Further, if Israel begins a program of capturing and deporting Palestinians the moral choice is to take in those forcibly expelled people and assist them in resettling.
Did I actually get that right or is there something major I'm missing?
Are we really at a point where the least bad option is to actively aid a malicious power in executing an ethnic cleansing?
If so, does anyone know of an organization doing that I can donate to? Because I've been donating to Doctors Without Borders, and that's never a bad option, but if there's a group working to evacuate Gaza I think at this point its better to direct my money to them.
posted by sotonohito at 1:03 PM on December 31, 2023
Did I actually get that right or is there something major I'm missing?
At Israel's current rate of killing, as horrific as it is, it'll take them 25 years to kill everybody in Gaza. Many additional possibilities will surely open themselves up well before then. Public opinion in Israel may turn. Israel may run out of money. All the other states in the Middle East might attack Israel.
"The maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped" is a weak premise to base your reasoning on.
posted by clawsoon at 1:18 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
At Israel's current rate of killing, as horrific as it is, it'll take them 25 years to kill everybody in Gaza. Many additional possibilities will surely open themselves up well before then. Public opinion in Israel may turn. Israel may run out of money. All the other states in the Middle East might attack Israel.
"The maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped" is a weak premise to base your reasoning on.
posted by clawsoon at 1:18 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
If 25% of Palestinians die every year from knock on effects of bombing the shit out of their country and preventing aid from entering they will be effectively genocided well before 25 years even if there are a few stragglers hanging around.
posted by Mitheral at 1:31 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 1:31 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
How Joe Biden Became America’s Top Israel Hawk
Both before and after October 7, the empathy Biden is known for has rarely extended to Palestinians. Rashid Khalidi, the Edward Said Professor of Modern Arab Studies at Columbia University, said such statements are missing “to the degree that I don’t really think he sees the Palestinians at all.” In contrast, Khalidi added, Biden sees Israelis “as they are very carefully presented by their government and their massive information apparatus.”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:59 PM on December 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
A former Biden administration official shared a similar perspective with me. “The President does not seem to acknowledge the humanity of all parties affected by this conflict,” this person said. “He has described Israeli suffering in great detail, while Palestinian suffering is left vague if mentioned at all.”
or is there something major I'm missing?
posted by sotonohito
"The maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped" is a weak premise to base your reasoning on.
posted by clawsoon
This, plus the analysis seems to be missing any consideration of what Gazans/Palestinians want in the matter.
posted by eviemath at 3:28 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by sotonohito
"The maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped" is a weak premise to base your reasoning on.
posted by clawsoon
This, plus the analysis seems to be missing any consideration of what Gazans/Palestinians want in the matter.
posted by eviemath at 3:28 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
2) No polity is willing, or able if willing, to intervene in a military way to make Israel stop the mass murder.
Hence the crucial importance of ordinary people getting involved on a mass scale to resist this horror, eg by joining the BDS movement. As eviemath points out, Palestinians certainly do not want the world to help facilitate Israel's forced population transfer, they want us to take action to stop it. We should be focusing on how to ramp up this action, not engaging in thought experiments about whether it's a good idea to aid and abet international crimes.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:15 PM on December 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hence the crucial importance of ordinary people getting involved on a mass scale to resist this horror, eg by joining the BDS movement. As eviemath points out, Palestinians certainly do not want the world to help facilitate Israel's forced population transfer, they want us to take action to stop it. We should be focusing on how to ramp up this action, not engaging in thought experiments about whether it's a good idea to aid and abet international crimes.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:15 PM on December 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, I know this is a bit of an impossible thing to actually happen, but Palestinians coming together and hanging over Hamas people to the IDF to keep themselves from being genocided?
It's a lovely ending to a movie, I suppose.
posted by hippybear at 7:36 PM on December 31, 2023
It's a lovely ending to a movie, I suppose.
posted by hippybear at 7:36 PM on December 31, 2023
The question is, who gets to decide who's Hamas and who isnt, who's in need of deradicalizing and who isn't, who gets placed directly into the hands of the IDF for... 'processing' and who doesn't? Who verifies actions and histories and alignments, and who decides what beliefs are 'too dangerous' and what beliefs aren't?
For all the people whose family and friends were killed, for all of the permanent injuries sustained, for the families separated, for the livelihoods lost, for the possessions lost, for the cultural history lost, for the uprooting of a couple of million people (minus whatever percentage gets fingered as Hamas and get shredded), what comes next? Do these people get any say at all as to where they go? Do they get any kind of compensation for their losses, from Israel or from their new 'home' nations?
This is America, for instance. We can't get government to deliver meaningful social services and relief to a lot of AMERICANS that need them. Surely, yoinking Palestinians onto a jet plane, flying them to a nation where they have neither family nor housing nor jobs nor support systems, and sending them on their way with a hearty wave and a "Better luck this time!" cannot be the game plan. That would be a dead-end nightmare even WITHOUT xenophobia where they're going.
And who believes that there will be anything resembling fair trials for anyone that the IDF collects and suspects of having any connection whatsoever to Hamas, but for whom little hard evidence exists?
posted by delfin at 8:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
For all the people whose family and friends were killed, for all of the permanent injuries sustained, for the families separated, for the livelihoods lost, for the possessions lost, for the cultural history lost, for the uprooting of a couple of million people (minus whatever percentage gets fingered as Hamas and get shredded), what comes next? Do these people get any say at all as to where they go? Do they get any kind of compensation for their losses, from Israel or from their new 'home' nations?
This is America, for instance. We can't get government to deliver meaningful social services and relief to a lot of AMERICANS that need them. Surely, yoinking Palestinians onto a jet plane, flying them to a nation where they have neither family nor housing nor jobs nor support systems, and sending them on their way with a hearty wave and a "Better luck this time!" cannot be the game plan. That would be a dead-end nightmare even WITHOUT xenophobia where they're going.
And who believes that there will be anything resembling fair trials for anyone that the IDF collects and suspects of having any connection whatsoever to Hamas, but for whom little hard evidence exists?
posted by delfin at 8:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
I mean, I know this is a bit of an impossible thing to actually happen, but Palestinians coming together and hanging over Hamas people to the IDF to keep themselves from being genocided?
did you mean to come across so victim blaming? Because this is some stupid ass shit to say, and I've said some stupid ass shit
hey it's almost a new year and I can drink some more and type some nonsense but can we not do this please
posted by elkevelvet at 8:47 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
did you mean to come across so victim blaming? Because this is some stupid ass shit to say, and I've said some stupid ass shit
hey it's almost a new year and I can drink some more and type some nonsense but can we not do this please
posted by elkevelvet at 8:47 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
Fundamentally this tangent presumes somethings that've not been in evidence for some time:
- Israel is a good faith interlocutor/party to the following concerns:
-- the welfare of Palestinians
-- that its mandate is limited to its borders
-- that it accepts the international definition of those borders
So:
1. Should Palestinians present some people affiliated to Hamas, there's been no evidence that Israel will treat that as a de-escalation. (Eta: forgot to draw the connection with the Palestinian Authority's loss of stature despite technical mandate due to its move to parley with Israel and only to be treated as stooges)
2. Should Palestinians be deported outside WB and Gaza, there's been no evidence Israel wouldn't launch "preemptive" strikes. Lebanon is being hit right now.
3. Israel as a state has a broad security paradigm that has resulted in extrajudicial moves akin to KSA and North Korea (eta: I forgot India). Maybe it was against Nazis during the Munich Olympics but in recent years even in my Southeast Asian country with no official diplomatic relations there's been more than one attempt by the Mossad to neutralise Palestinian targets.
4. "From the river to the sea" is also a Likud party position. Is the Sinai that much more less of a valuable land in that revanchist imagination?
posted by cendawanita at 9:03 PM on December 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
- Israel is a good faith interlocutor/party to the following concerns:
-- the welfare of Palestinians
-- that its mandate is limited to its borders
-- that it accepts the international definition of those borders
So:
1. Should Palestinians present some people affiliated to Hamas, there's been no evidence that Israel will treat that as a de-escalation. (Eta: forgot to draw the connection with the Palestinian Authority's loss of stature despite technical mandate due to its move to parley with Israel and only to be treated as stooges)
2. Should Palestinians be deported outside WB and Gaza, there's been no evidence Israel wouldn't launch "preemptive" strikes. Lebanon is being hit right now.
3. Israel as a state has a broad security paradigm that has resulted in extrajudicial moves akin to KSA and North Korea (eta: I forgot India). Maybe it was against Nazis during the Munich Olympics but in recent years even in my Southeast Asian country with no official diplomatic relations there's been more than one attempt by the Mossad to neutralise Palestinian targets.
4. "From the river to the sea" is also a Likud party position. Is the Sinai that much more less of a valuable land in that revanchist imagination?
posted by cendawanita at 9:03 PM on December 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
"From the river to the sea" is also a Likud party position
Not so much "is also" as "was originally and remains".
The most accurate first approximation of Likud is as a domestic abuser scaled to national government size. DARVO has always been the basis of its PR strategy and its every accusation is a confession.
The least evil of the options that remain is to actively assist Israel in it's ambition of ethnic cleansing ... is there something major I'm missing?
Apart from the monstrous grotesqueness of this proposal, the main thing you're missing is that Likud would not have the capacity to keep on doing what it's been doing for fifty years without the active support of the US.
The least evil of the options that remain is massive, coordinated, organized protest inside the US to get that shit shut down.
posted by flabdablet at 9:54 PM on December 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Not so much "is also" as "was originally and remains".
The most accurate first approximation of Likud is as a domestic abuser scaled to national government size. DARVO has always been the basis of its PR strategy and its every accusation is a confession.
The least evil of the options that remain is to actively assist Israel in it's ambition of ethnic cleansing ... is there something major I'm missing?
Apart from the monstrous grotesqueness of this proposal, the main thing you're missing is that Likud would not have the capacity to keep on doing what it's been doing for fifty years without the active support of the US.
The least evil of the options that remain is massive, coordinated, organized protest inside the US to get that shit shut down.
posted by flabdablet at 9:54 PM on December 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Here is a burning question that i really, genuinely have for the people who still want to justify Israel's actions with "but Hamas is evil" or whatever:
In international law, there is fundamentally no such thing anymore as terra nullius. So: to what sovereign polity do the territories which constitute Occupied Palestine (Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and arguably the Golan Heights but we can leave that one out if you feel like that makes it too difficult) belong?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:40 AM on January 1 [5 favorites]
In international law, there is fundamentally no such thing anymore as terra nullius. So: to what sovereign polity do the territories which constitute Occupied Palestine (Gaza, the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and arguably the Golan Heights but we can leave that one out if you feel like that makes it too difficult) belong?
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:40 AM on January 1 [5 favorites]
[...]Choice for who? I don't think the average person like you or I has much choice in the matter, in the broader picture our impact is limited. For somebody like Biden, however, he has the power to create options. It seems like the real question you're asking is "Who can I support that would do the most good?" and my answer would be whoever has the will and ability to do logistics in and out of Gaza. And if that's limited because the IDF keeps the borders closed, it's whoever is pushing to open them.
3) Since there are no good options and the maximally evil outcome cannot be stopped the morally correct choice is to find the least evil of the options that remain.
4) The least evil of the options that remain is to actively assist Israel in it's ambition of ethnic cleansing and assist in resettling all Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who wish to leave. Further, if Israel begins a program of capturing and deporting Palestinians the moral choice is to take in those forcibly expelled people and assist them in resettling.
posted by ndr at 2:04 AM on January 1 [1 favorite]
Bernie Steinberg: For the Safety of Jews and Palestinians, Stop Weaponizing Antisemitism (The Harvard Crimson):
Let me speak directly to Jewish students at Harvard.posted by kmt at 5:22 AM on January 1 [14 favorites]
I know that it’s alienating and hurtful to so many of you when campus Jewish organizations, like Hillel and Chabad, take positions that exclude your voices. To those students, I say: The Jewish tradition is much deeper than any organization. No one has a monopoly on Judaism.
Continue to learn Torah, Jewish history, and our ethical traditions. Continue to draw from these sources — your sources — to find yourself, to build community, to build your own power, and even to build your own Jewish organizations.
Be boldly critical of Israel — not despite being Jewish, but because you are. There is no tradition more central to Judaism than prophetic truth-telling, no Jewish imperative more urgent than bravely criticizing corrupt leadership, starting with our own.
...
If Israel’s cause is just, let it speak eloquently in its own defense. It is very telling that some of Israel’s own supporters instead go to extraordinary lengths to utterly silence the other side. Smearing one’s opponents is rarely a tactic employed by those confident that justice is on their side. If Israel’s case requires branding its critics antisemites, it is already conceding defeat.
During the Jewish Holocaust in WW2, 6 million were killed over a period of 6 years.
In total 63.1% of the Jewish population died at a rate of 0.87% of the population per month.
In the Gaza genocide of 2023, so far 4.76% of the population has died at a rate of 1.58% of the population per month.
posted by Lanark at 6:37 AM on January 1
In total 63.1% of the Jewish population died at a rate of 0.87% of the population per month.
In the Gaza genocide of 2023, so far 4.76% of the population has died at a rate of 1.58% of the population per month.
posted by Lanark at 6:37 AM on January 1
Notwithstanding the profound differences between these state-sponsored atrocities, and the straight up incorrect math (reported ~25k of ~2.3 m is ~1% not ~5%), these comparisons help no-one, not Palestinians on the ground, nor people trying to help them.
posted by lalochezia at 7:10 AM on January 1 [6 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 7:10 AM on January 1 [6 favorites]
Sorry, I was mixing up stats for 'Gaza City' with the population of Gaza.
posted by Lanark at 9:03 AM on January 1
posted by Lanark at 9:03 AM on January 1
BBC, today: Israel Supreme Court strikes down judicial reforms
DW:
In the 8-7 majority decision, the court narrowly voted to overturn a law passed in July that prevents judges from overturning government decisions they deem "unreasonable."
...
Monday's ruling said the amendment to the constitution had deprived the court of the opportunity to take action against "inappropriate" decisions by the government, the prime minister or individual ministers.
The judgment states that the amendment could have "caused serious and unprecedented damage to the core characteristics of the State of Israel as a democratic state."
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:14 AM on January 1 [7 favorites]
DW:
In the 8-7 majority decision, the court narrowly voted to overturn a law passed in July that prevents judges from overturning government decisions they deem "unreasonable."
...
Monday's ruling said the amendment to the constitution had deprived the court of the opportunity to take action against "inappropriate" decisions by the government, the prime minister or individual ministers.
The judgment states that the amendment could have "caused serious and unprecedented damage to the core characteristics of the State of Israel as a democratic state."
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:14 AM on January 1 [7 favorites]
If Israel’s case requires branding its critics antisemites, it is already conceding defeat
Worse yet is that Netanyahu is directing all the people and resources of his country to fight an endless, genocidal war just to escape corruption charges. Israel lost when they elected him to destroy what was left of their democracy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:35 AM on January 1 [3 favorites]
Worse yet is that Netanyahu is directing all the people and resources of his country to fight an endless, genocidal war just to escape corruption charges. Israel lost when they elected him to destroy what was left of their democracy.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:35 AM on January 1 [3 favorites]
Someone on Bluesky screenshotted and alt-texted parts of an Al Jazeera segment asking children in Gaza hope for the new year. They say largely what you would expect children in a war zone to say but also of course heartbreaking and a reminder that there are real people including children who matter here and not just the standings of powerful people around the world.
(Hopefully this link works for folks not on bluesky — I couldn’t find it on mastodon.)
posted by R343L at 10:36 AM on January 1 [6 favorites]
(Hopefully this link works for folks not on bluesky — I couldn’t find it on mastodon.)
posted by R343L at 10:36 AM on January 1 [6 favorites]
(Hopefully this link works for folks not on bluesky — I couldn’t find it on mastodon.)
The link worked for me. Thank you for posting that; those are heartbreaking.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:04 PM on January 1
The link worked for me. Thank you for posting that; those are heartbreaking.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:04 PM on January 1
During the Jewish Holocaust in WW2, 6 million were killed over a period of 6 years.
In total
It was just under 4 years, not six. At it's peak, the camps were killing over 20,000 a day I find this number game to be highly dishonorable from a conversational and academic perspective.
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on January 1 [15 favorites]
In total
It was just under 4 years, not six. At it's peak, the camps were killing over 20,000 a day I find this number game to be highly dishonorable from a conversational and academic perspective.
posted by clavdivs at 12:45 PM on January 1 [15 favorites]
Lanark, the Holocaust encompassed more them the murder of Jewish people. The holocaust claimed over 11,000,0000 lives. let us not discount the disabled, LBGTQ, Soviet prisoners, dissidents, political prisoners, romanians, lithuanians, etc etc.
what is important what is pertinent if there's any comparison to be done is the laws enacted to suppress the Palestinian people and keep them corral in a ghetto makes me wonder what the f*** Israel learned, also, the dehumanizing language of the Israeli government, the idf, and some of its citizens. if not out right calls for extermination I apologize I'm not going to cross that word out I don't like the word extermination as a matter of fact I signed a petition to the Detroit news not to use the word extermination when it came to the Holocaust because it's murder not extermination extermination was a code word.
this dehumanizing rhetoric was evident to me on the first day.I understand that dehumanizing language after what Hamas did but it continues and it continues and they spread it but there's nothing that can stop them.
there is a way to stop them you get every country in the world to send a ship with supplies over there at once but does anybody not even the United Nations have the gall or the capacity or the willingness to do that no they don't, they're cowards were all cowards. I'm sorry for my anger but I think Benjamin netanyahu should be tried for war crimes.l
posted by clavdivs at 1:21 PM on January 1 [5 favorites]
what is important what is pertinent if there's any comparison to be done is the laws enacted to suppress the Palestinian people and keep them corral in a ghetto makes me wonder what the f*** Israel learned, also, the dehumanizing language of the Israeli government, the idf, and some of its citizens. if not out right calls for extermination I apologize I'm not going to cross that word out I don't like the word extermination as a matter of fact I signed a petition to the Detroit news not to use the word extermination when it came to the Holocaust because it's murder not extermination extermination was a code word.
this dehumanizing rhetoric was evident to me on the first day.I understand that dehumanizing language after what Hamas did but it continues and it continues and they spread it but there's nothing that can stop them.
there is a way to stop them you get every country in the world to send a ship with supplies over there at once but does anybody not even the United Nations have the gall or the capacity or the willingness to do that no they don't, they're cowards were all cowards. I'm sorry for my anger but I think Benjamin netanyahu should be tried for war crimes.l
posted by clavdivs at 1:21 PM on January 1 [5 favorites]
there is a way to stop them you get every country in the world to send a ship with supplies over there at once but does anybody not even the United Nations have the gall or the capacity or the willingness to do that no they don't, they're cowards were all cowards
It wasn't every country, but I remembered the last freedom flotilla, in large part because Malaysia was involved so there was news coverage here (unsurprisingly in Ireland too, and a bit in Canada), where that was the very idea, carrying ships with aid, because surely a humanitarian project like that would be objected but not violently repelled. I've shared an interview from a survivor in a previous post, didn't I? And apparently that was their ninth attempt by then.
This siege's flotilla is still waiting for a safe(r) moment and expects to sail sometime early this year.
Other countries that are not America have been trying. I'm sympathetic to the current tension between civic action right now and political leadership though - many of those countries including mine wouldn't have even tolerated this level of protests without establishment backing. But the fact that Americans can leaves me with a sliver of hope, simply because that is the only country who has leverage right now, short of everyone suddenly feeling inclined to actually launch a military action. Probably around the time when the UN decides to abandon its organization headquartering in NYC.
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 PM on January 1 [6 favorites]
It wasn't every country, but I remembered the last freedom flotilla, in large part because Malaysia was involved so there was news coverage here (unsurprisingly in Ireland too, and a bit in Canada), where that was the very idea, carrying ships with aid, because surely a humanitarian project like that would be objected but not violently repelled. I've shared an interview from a survivor in a previous post, didn't I? And apparently that was their ninth attempt by then.
This siege's flotilla is still waiting for a safe(r) moment and expects to sail sometime early this year.
Other countries that are not America have been trying. I'm sympathetic to the current tension between civic action right now and political leadership though - many of those countries including mine wouldn't have even tolerated this level of protests without establishment backing. But the fact that Americans can leaves me with a sliver of hope, simply because that is the only country who has leverage right now, short of everyone suddenly feeling inclined to actually launch a military action. Probably around the time when the UN decides to abandon its organization headquartering in NYC.
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 PM on January 1 [6 favorites]
cendawanita: the thing that always particularly gets me about the original Freedom Flotilla was that Israel raided them in international waters (we normally call this "piracy on the high seas"), and no one with any power said a goddamn thing about it.
Meanwhile, the Bab al-Mandab strait should be uncomplicatedly under the sovereign control of Yemen and Djibouti, and meanwhile every fucking government with trade interests in the region has asserted its rights to do whatever the fuck it wants regardless of Yemeni/Djibouti permission.
"International rules-based order" my ass.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:23 AM on January 2 [11 favorites]
Meanwhile, the Bab al-Mandab strait should be uncomplicatedly under the sovereign control of Yemen and Djibouti, and meanwhile every fucking government with trade interests in the region has asserted its rights to do whatever the fuck it wants regardless of Yemeni/Djibouti permission.
"International rules-based order" my ass.
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:23 AM on January 2 [11 favorites]
"This is a spectacular accounting document, in which the minimum daily amount of calories that Israel must allow into Gaza without risking starvation was calculated with the precision of a diamond scale."Ha'aretz reports on the incipient famine in Gaza (archive link).
The "Red Lines" document in question is from 2009. This has been Israeli policy for DECADES.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:23 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
The US, China and others have bases in Djibouti.
The Houthi are not Yemen's internationally recognized government, and even if they were they're interdicting traffic outside of Yemeni waters (depending on who you ask).
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:58 AM on January 2 [1 favorite]
The Houthi are not Yemen's internationally recognized government, and even if they were they're interdicting traffic outside of Yemeni waters (depending on who you ask).
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:58 AM on January 2 [1 favorite]
The Houthi are not Yemen's internationally recognized government, and even if they were they're interdicting traffic outside of Yemeni waters (depending on who you ask).
In related news, the Guardian is reporting that the UK is threatening to launch airstrikes on the Houthis if the shipping attacks don't stop.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on January 2
In related news, the Guardian is reporting that the UK is threatening to launch airstrikes on the Houthis if the shipping attacks don't stop.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 AM on January 2
If you missed spamandkimchi's post on Dec. 16th featuring a 2-part conversation with Naomi Klein on the Between the Covers podcast, then I highly recommend you check it out. Klein discusses her new book "Doppelganger" with host David Naimon, and the second part of their 5 hour discussion provides a lot of contextualization to the current conflict: the extension of colonialist oppression in the founding of Israel, the question of Jewish identity among younger members of the diaspora, it's a rich conversation and I can't recommend it highly enough.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
FT: What will be left of Gaza when the war ends?
A graphic in the above article shows that per capita income in the West Bank has roughly doubled over the past ~30 years, whereas in Gaza it has decreased over the same period of time.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:06 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
A graphic in the above article shows that per capita income in the West Bank has roughly doubled over the past ~30 years, whereas in Gaza it has decreased over the same period of time.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:06 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
Speaking of income, Mouin Rabbani had a fantastic thread a few days ago about, among other things, Israel's complete control over all aspects of Palestinian monetary policy and taxation, and it's very worth reading. (Nitter link so non-Twitter folks can read the whole thread)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:54 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Just as a point of order, how do we define a "rogue state"? Israel has conducted an extrajudicial strike in Beirut. The neighbourhood is now described as "Hezbollah-run".
There's also an ongoing series of reactions thanks to South Africa's filing of the suit, of which a hearing is scheduled on January 11. This thread (in Nitter) has been a useful one, even with Google Translate.
posted by cendawanita at 10:17 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
There's also an ongoing series of reactions thanks to South Africa's filing of the suit, of which a hearing is scheduled on January 11. This thread (in Nitter) has been a useful one, even with Google Translate.
posted by cendawanita at 10:17 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
The Times is reporting that the deputy head of Hamas, Saleh al-Arouri, and two leaders of its armed wing were killed in Lebanon in a Hamas office, with photos of a building where it looks like a bomb went off or there was a missile strike. The surprising thing to me is that they would all get together for an in-person meeting in the local Hamas offices, given that they must have known that they were all on the wanted list and that a known Hamas office would likely be watched.
On preview, cendawanita's link has more information than the Times' initial reporting, including some useful context about past assassination campaigns.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:20 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
On preview, cendawanita's link has more information than the Times' initial reporting, including some useful context about past assassination campaigns.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:20 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
Israel's complete control over all aspects of Palestinian monetary policy and taxation, and it's very worth reading. (Nitter link so non-Twitter folks can read the whole thread
Iirc the thread was prompted by this news:
(Al-Jazeera) Israeli forces confiscate cash during raids in occupied West Bank
vs
(JPost) Millions of shekels in cash seized by IDF overnight in West Bank
I have to go sleep but the Israeli response in fact checking and outright calling out the NYT report about sexual assaults (including family members of an Oct 7 victim) is worth noting generally but if anyone else wants to share them first, please do.
Related: (ToI) 42 survivors of the Nova rave massacre sue defense establishment for negligence
posted by cendawanita at 10:24 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
Iirc the thread was prompted by this news:
(Al-Jazeera) Israeli forces confiscate cash during raids in occupied West Bank
vs
(JPost) Millions of shekels in cash seized by IDF overnight in West Bank
I have to go sleep but the Israeli response in fact checking and outright calling out the NYT report about sexual assaults (including family members of an Oct 7 victim) is worth noting generally but if anyone else wants to share them first, please do.
Related: (ToI) 42 survivors of the Nova rave massacre sue defense establishment for negligence
posted by cendawanita at 10:24 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
I was looking at data about Grozny, the Second Battle of Fallujah, and Aleppo to see where Israel's current operation falls on the spectrum of horribleness. Data was pulled from Wikipedia and Getty) I selected the second battle of Fallujah for a comparison with a US operation because it is considered one of the bloodiest battles in modern US military history -- in terms of civilian casualties and destruction.
Fallujah, Aleppo and Grozny endured significant, somewhat simliar levels of infrastructure destruction. Yet in Fallujah there were far fewer civilian casualties compared to the other two. I think that these levels of destruction match the kind of destruction seen in Gaza. Unfortunately for supporters of Israel the rates of casualties are beyond what we've seen in these other conflicts. I expected that Israel's invasion would be somewhere between the US and Syria. Instead the data shows that Israel's invasion is more destructive and killing more civilians than Aleppo and Grozny and they are not even half way through the region yet.
Fallujah, Aleppo and Grozny endured significant, somewhat simliar levels of infrastructure destruction. Yet in Fallujah there were far fewer civilian casualties compared to the other two. I think that these levels of destruction match the kind of destruction seen in Gaza. Unfortunately for supporters of Israel the rates of casualties are beyond what we've seen in these other conflicts. I expected that Israel's invasion would be somewhere between the US and Syria. Instead the data shows that Israel's invasion is more destructive and killing more civilians than Aleppo and Grozny and they are not even half way through the region yet.
- Fallujah (US Military)
- Population: 300,000
- Civilian Casualties according to 3rd parties: 800 -- 0.27% of the population
- Destruction of Infrastructure: 10,000 structures destroyed of 50,000, with 60% of structures significantly damaged.
- Grozny (Russian Military)
- Population: ~400,000 estimated
- Civilian Casualties: 8000 killed -- 2% of the population
- Destruction of Infrastructure: 50% of buildings destroyed, the remainder were damaged, but able to be restored.
- Aleppo
- Population: > 2 million
- Civilian Casualties: 25,000-30,000 killed (at least) -- 1.5% of the population
- Destruction of Infrastructure: 50-65% of buildings destroyed
One of the major differences between those slaughters and this one is that there is nowhere for Gaza's residents to flee to.
posted by lalochezia at 1:35 PM on January 2 [10 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:35 PM on January 2 [10 favorites]
One of the major differences between those slaughters and this one is that there is nowhere for Gaza's residents to flee to.
This. Of the US-involved battles, Mosul is a slightly better comparison, due to ISIS/Daesh using force to try and keep civilians from fleeing (i.e., as shields), but people were still mostly able to escape. This article in the Economist, from back in October, gives a good overview and comparison of Gaza vs other recent major urban battles, and I'd say all of its warnings turned out to be correct. The tl;dr is basically that destroying much of the buildings is normal and expected in urban warfare, but refusing to allow civilians to move out of harm's way is not.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:57 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
This. Of the US-involved battles, Mosul is a slightly better comparison, due to ISIS/Daesh using force to try and keep civilians from fleeing (i.e., as shields), but people were still mostly able to escape. This article in the Economist, from back in October, gives a good overview and comparison of Gaza vs other recent major urban battles, and I'd say all of its warnings turned out to be correct. The tl;dr is basically that destroying much of the buildings is normal and expected in urban warfare, but refusing to allow civilians to move out of harm's way is not.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:57 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Still struck by the precision of the Beirut* strike compared to the carpet bombing of Gaza that still won't get to the depths of where the tunnels are at, both the ones Israelis constructed and what we call as Hamas as shorthand continued**.
*in case it needs reminding, not Palestinian territory and in fact the capital city of a sovereign state.
**imagine the state of a nation from the river to the sea if the population did include such enterprising people who managed to do this under blockade and aren't treated as second-class citizens at best or human vermin at worst. Maybe you wouldn't need to import so many different types of workers.
posted by cendawanita at 7:01 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
*in case it needs reminding, not Palestinian territory and in fact the capital city of a sovereign state.
**imagine the state of a nation from the river to the sea if the population did include such enterprising people who managed to do this under blockade and aren't treated as second-class citizens at best or human vermin at worst. Maybe you wouldn't need to import so many different types of workers.
posted by cendawanita at 7:01 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
**imagine the state of a nation from the river to the sea if the population did include such enterprising people who managed to do this under blockade and aren't treated as second-class citizens at best or human vermin at worst. Maybe you wouldn't need to import so many different types of workers.
There's an alternative universe where El Chapo and Hamas created a successful joint venture to build subway tunnels and pedestrian underpasses.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:29 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
There's an alternative universe where El Chapo and Hamas created a successful joint venture to build subway tunnels and pedestrian underpasses.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:29 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
The Times of Israel: Israeli officials said in talks with Congo, others on taking in Gaza emigrants
posted by kmt at 3:24 AM on January 3 [11 favorites]
The Times of Israel’s Hebrew sister-site Zman Yisrael reports that Israeli officials have held clandestine talks with the African nation of Congo and several others for the potential acceptance of Gaza emigrants.and also
Yerushalmi quotes Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel saying at the Knesset yesterday: “At the end of the war Hamas rule will collapse, there are no municipal authorities, the civilian population will be entirely dependent on humanitarian aid. There will be no work, and 60% of Gaza’s agricultural land will become security buffer zones.”They go on to talk about the "Gaza problem". How nice "solution" they found for it. (cf. Madagascar Plan)
posted by kmt at 3:24 AM on January 3 [11 favorites]
Saying education to hatred will continue in Gaza and further attacks on Israel are only a matter of time, [Gamliel] added: “The Gaza problem is not just our problem. The world should support humanitarian emigration, because that’s the only solution I know.”So the only "solution" that the current Intelligence Minister knows is to steal all of the territory from millions of people to whom Israel's brutal occupation has been providing the most comprehensive curriculum in hatred imaginable for literally their whole lives?
No. Not even a Likud politician could be that thick-headed and short-sighted, not even one brazen enough to use the word "solution" in reference to an entire population in a way that's beyond obscene.
This party and its further-right coalition partners have just one "solution" in mind, and it's the same one suffered by their own families. Most have just not quite got to the point of saying the quiet part out loud enough to ruin any plausibility for the Western press's longstanding bravura performance of deafness.
We must not help them implement it. Not in any way.
Never again.
posted by flabdablet at 4:21 AM on January 3 [15 favorites]
Credit where credit is due, though. "Humanitarian emigration" as a euphemism for genocide is a masterful confection.
posted by flabdablet at 5:53 AM on January 3 [9 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 5:53 AM on January 3 [9 favorites]
There’s an intersection (not an analogy or comparison) there with the role of “transportation” in Australian colonization, of course.
posted by eviemath at 6:07 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
posted by eviemath at 6:07 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
As we witness this incredible depravity, we have to remember that we should have seen it coming. This is the culmination of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, something the world ignored or, on the left, often minimized and justified. When we minimize and justify the patently unjustifiable, this is the road we start down.
posted by Frowner at 6:14 AM on January 3 [6 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:14 AM on January 3 [6 favorites]
we should have seen it coming
Countless millions have seen it coming. For decades at this point.
I'd argue that amongst those countless millions are its architects, and that this accounts for why they've needed to do such a thorough job of creating the media electric fence around this issue - the very same electric fence that for years has managed to convince Metafilter that Israel/Palestine is a subject that we "don't do well" and is therefore best avoided.
posted by flabdablet at 6:39 AM on January 3 [24 favorites]
Countless millions have seen it coming. For decades at this point.
I'd argue that amongst those countless millions are its architects, and that this accounts for why they've needed to do such a thorough job of creating the media electric fence around this issue - the very same electric fence that for years has managed to convince Metafilter that Israel/Palestine is a subject that we "don't do well" and is therefore best avoided.
posted by flabdablet at 6:39 AM on January 3 [24 favorites]
When we minimize and justify the patently unjustifiable, this is the road we start down.
The prophet Wilhoit:
The prophet Wilhoit:
As the core proposition of conservatism is indefensible if stated baldly, it has always been surrounded by an elaborate backwash of pseudophilosophy, amounting over time to millions of pages. All such is axiomatically dishonest and undeserving of serious scrutiny. Today, the accelerating de-education of humanity has reached a point where the market for pseudophilosophy is vanishing; it is, as The Kids Say These Days, tl;dr. All that is left is the core proposition itself — backed up, no longer by misdirection and sophistry, but by violence.posted by flabdablet at 6:43 AM on January 3 [5 favorites]
Countless millions have seen it coming. For decades at this point.
Yeah, I guess by "we" I mean "people of good will on metafilter who hate that it is happening". I look back, despite my own occasional involvement in pro-Palestine demos, etc, and feel that if I had not lied to myself and minimized, I should have been shouting from the housetops.
posted by Frowner at 7:00 AM on January 3 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I guess by "we" I mean "people of good will on metafilter who hate that it is happening". I look back, despite my own occasional involvement in pro-Palestine demos, etc, and feel that if I had not lied to myself and minimized, I should have been shouting from the housetops.
posted by Frowner at 7:00 AM on January 3 [8 favorites]
I mean, we all wish we could have done more, but lets remember that the whole time half the world was shouting in our ears that we were stirring the conflict and rolling their eyes at us.
This very site chose to abstain until very recently. I'm not that confident that it would have had a positive impact if we'd allowed more I/P threads, perhaps it would have had a negative impact, but the site chose to not participate in most of the discussions that warned of this outcome, and in doing so gave up the possibility of being a positive influence.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:21 AM on January 3 [5 favorites]
This very site chose to abstain until very recently. I'm not that confident that it would have had a positive impact if we'd allowed more I/P threads, perhaps it would have had a negative impact, but the site chose to not participate in most of the discussions that warned of this outcome, and in doing so gave up the possibility of being a positive influence.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:21 AM on January 3 [5 favorites]
a non-zero number of people posting here would face repercussions in their communities if they voiced support of Palestinians. The discourse in N. America, certainly, has been thoroughly poisoned.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:30 AM on January 3 [10 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 7:30 AM on January 3 [10 favorites]
My students write Free Palestine on the whiteboards and I'm mildly in trouble for not wanting to scrub it out in front of them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:31 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:31 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
Which is like so mild and light, I'm very lucky. But I just don't want any kid thinking that I don't think they're an equal human being because of their origin or passport.
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:35 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
posted by Audreynachrome at 7:35 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
Interesting op-ed in Le Figaro by @renaudgirard, their lead foreign policy journalist, who argues that Israel strategy is suicidal for Israel and the West as a whole
Nitter Arnauld Bertrand
Let's dare to say it: this Zionism of conquest is suicidal for Israel and for the West that supports it.
posted by adamvasco at 9:06 AM on January 3 [6 favorites]
Nitter Arnauld Bertrand
Let's dare to say it: this Zionism of conquest is suicidal for Israel and for the West that supports it.
posted by adamvasco at 9:06 AM on January 3 [6 favorites]
More than 100 people were killed by a terrorist attack in Iran this morning, at a commemoration ceremony at General Soleimani's tomb on the fourth anniversary of his assassination by the USA.
At least some Iranian media & spokespeople seem to be blaming Israel. (I'm having trouble finding solid links in English, and i don't speak Farsi and really don't want to rely on Google Translate for solid info, hence hedging with "seem to be".) I'm sure nobody actually has any idea whether it was Israel or not, but frankly, the very fact that their name is being brought up in this context is dangerous and terrifying because it represents the possibility of further escalation of tensions in the region.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:28 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
At least some Iranian media & spokespeople seem to be blaming Israel. (I'm having trouble finding solid links in English, and i don't speak Farsi and really don't want to rely on Google Translate for solid info, hence hedging with "seem to be".) I'm sure nobody actually has any idea whether it was Israel or not, but frankly, the very fact that their name is being brought up in this context is dangerous and terrifying because it represents the possibility of further escalation of tensions in the region.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:28 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
Also, not that anyone has to answer me, but my question from 1 January wasn't rhetorical (and also got posted at like 2am my time, so it's very possible it got overlooked.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:30 AM on January 3
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:30 AM on January 3
What are you after that the Wikipedia article doesn't cover?
posted by flabdablet at 10:24 AM on January 3
posted by flabdablet at 10:24 AM on January 3
Israel’s Push to Expel Residents of Gaza (Democracy Now, Piped/YouTube, 8m49s)
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 AM on January 3
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 AM on January 3
Same story's page at democracynow.org includes the links mentioned in it.
posted by flabdablet at 10:42 AM on January 3
posted by flabdablet at 10:42 AM on January 3
flabdablet: i mean, i know the answer. But it sure seems like a lot of people in here don't, or disagree with the UN's view. And it definitely has implications for whether anything Israel is doing or planning is legal.
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:49 AM on January 3
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:49 AM on January 3
Nothing Israel is doing or planning is legal.
posted by kensington314 at 10:51 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 10:51 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
Top Executive Leaves ADL Over CEO’s Praise of Elon Musk
Despite Musk’s promotion of antisemitic and white nationalist sentiment, Greenblatt has repeatedly extolled the billionaire’s business prowess and, recently, his pledge to censor pro-Palestinian phrases on X. Internal critics say Greenblatt is especially willing to excuse Musk’s white nationalist sympathies if it helps the ADL fight anti-Zionism. In interviews with Jewish Currents, five current and former ADL employees—all of whom asked to remain anonymous to avoid professional consequences—discussed how this pattern has intensified since the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel and the continuing Israeli bombardment of Gaza. Former staffers told Jewish Currents that in the past months, Greenblatt has redirected the ADL’s day-to-day work to target pro-Palestine activism rather than focusing on antisemitism in American life, a shift they say seriously undermines the organization’s credibility.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 11:55 AM on January 3 [8 favorites]
Recent reports in Vice and The Daily Beast have confirmed that a significant number of current and former ADL employees are frustrated with this orientation, and specifically with Greenblatt’s public embrace of Musk, which many see as undermining the organization’s work. “There’s a pattern of Jonathan going rogue—belittling in-house experts and ignoring talking points prepared for him,” said a former ADL staffer. Under these circumstances, added the current ADL staffer, “it’s hard to see how Yaël [Eisenstat], a leading pro-democracy internet advocate, could maintain that reputation and influence if she had to continue to stay quiet and accept ADL’s endorsement of online censorship of anti-Israel critiques, not to mention the broader disregard of her advice and leadership.” The departure of Eisenstat is perhaps the most significant sign to date of the widespread staff discontent surrounding Greenblatt’s leadership, demonstrating, in the words of the former ADL staffer, that “there are a lot of people of all political stripes at ADL who believe what Jonathan is doing is reprehensible.”
kensington314: you know that, and i know that, but several folks have spent four long threads either ignoring that, refusing to concede it, or downplaying how bad it is!
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:44 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:44 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]
adrienneleigh: You know that, and I know that, but I'm unconvinced that getting into a back-and-forth to extract public concessions from people committed to alternative facts is the best use of anybody's time.
And for what it's worth, a question asked for a purpose other than to obtain information is the exact definition of a rhetorical question. It's generally better simply to link directly to information you wish everybody had than to convince somebody else to do it for you.
posted by flabdablet at 9:23 PM on January 3 [2 favorites]
And for what it's worth, a question asked for a purpose other than to obtain information is the exact definition of a rhetorical question. It's generally better simply to link directly to information you wish everybody had than to convince somebody else to do it for you.
posted by flabdablet at 9:23 PM on January 3 [2 favorites]
It wasn't rhetorical because a) there are in fact disagreements about the "correct" answer, even at the level of international law experts, even though i think it's obvious that one of those answers is correct; and b) i was specifically interested in the beliefs of people in this thread. There's a longstanding issue with Palestine, specifically, where folks like to do a kind of shell-game with "who actually has legal sovereignty over Palestinian territory" such that the answer is always "whatever is most convenient for Israel at the time".
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:37 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:37 PM on January 3 [3 favorites]
Mondoweiss: Family of key case in New York Times October 7 sexual violence report renounces story, says reporters manipulated them
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:29 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:29 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
‘Do You Have Another Solution?’ Israeli Ambassador Gives Stunning Response When Interviewer Says She Made Case for ‘Destroying the Whole of Gaza’
HOTOVELY: Those areas must be destroyed. And one of the things we exposed to the world after getting into the areas in Gaza that we tried to find all those tunnels and underground metro-city that Hamas has built thanks to this great support of Iran, Qatar, the international community, generosity, everything turned to be this horrible terror city. One of the things we realized – that every school, every mosque, every second house has an access to [a] tunnel. So this is– and of course– and ammunition.posted by clawsoon at 4:42 AM on January 4 [4 favorites]
DALE: But that’s an argument for destroying the whole of Gaza — every single building in there.
HOTOVELY: So, do you have another solution – how to destroy the underground tunnels city, that this is the place where the terrorists hide, where they have all the ammunition? And this is the rockets that are still fired on Israeli cities.”
More than 100 people were killed by a terrorist attack in Iran this morning, at a commemoration ceremony at General Soleimani's tomb on the fourth anniversary of his assassination by the USA.
At least some Iranian media & spokespeople seem to be blaming Israel.
U.S. Says It Believes ISIS Was Behind Bombing That Killed Dozens in Iran:
At least some Iranian media & spokespeople seem to be blaming Israel.
U.S. Says It Believes ISIS Was Behind Bombing That Killed Dozens in Iran:
American officials believe that Wednesday’s bombing attack in Kerman, Iran, was most likely the work of the Islamic State — a preliminary assessment based on intelligence, according to four American officials, who cautioned that no final conclusions have been drawn.posted by gwint at 8:01 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Two regional military officials also said they believed the Islamic State had perpetrated the attack, which killed 84 people during a memorial ceremony at the tomb of Maj. Gen. Qassim Suleimani, who was assassinated four years ago in an American drone attack.
Some Iranian leaders initially appeared to blame Israel for the attack, but the American officials said early intelligence assessments indicated that Israel was not behind the explosions. Although Israel is believed to have regularly carried out covert operations in Iran, they have typically been targeted operations against specific individuals, Iranian scientists or officials, or strikes to destroy nuclear or weapons facilities.
The American officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence matters, cautioned that their assessment on the bombings could evolve.
Confirmed: ISIS claims responsibility for deadliest attack in Iran since 1979 revolution
At the very least, hopefully this will tone down a tiny bit worries about a regional war. Of course there are many reasons why a larger war could still break out, but having an Islamic terrorist group take responsibility for this deadly attack shouldn't be one of them.
posted by gwint at 9:06 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
At the very least, hopefully this will tone down a tiny bit worries about a regional war. Of course there are many reasons why a larger war could still break out, but having an Islamic terrorist group take responsibility for this deadly attack shouldn't be one of them.
posted by gwint at 9:06 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Unless Iran decides that, if it was okay for Israel to do it, they’re going to go after ISIS in the same way that Israel has gone after Hamas. (I think this is highly unlikely, however.)
posted by eviemath at 9:11 AM on January 4
posted by eviemath at 9:11 AM on January 4
ISIS is such a strange group. Look at this chart from the CBC:
ISIS Allies
* Members of the Baath party and former Saddam Hussein loyalists
* Some Iraqi tribal leaders
ISIS Enemies
* Iraqi government and military
* Shia militias
* Moderate Sunnis in Iraq
* Kurdish fighters in Iraq and Syria
* Other Sunni jihadist groups in Iraq and Syria
* Moderate rebel groups in Syria
* Syrian regime
* U.S.
* Iran
* Turkey
* Saudi Arabia
* Lebanese militants Hezbollah
posted by gwint at 9:18 AM on January 4
ISIS Allies
* Members of the Baath party and former Saddam Hussein loyalists
* Some Iraqi tribal leaders
ISIS Enemies
* Iraqi government and military
* Shia militias
* Moderate Sunnis in Iraq
* Kurdish fighters in Iraq and Syria
* Other Sunni jihadist groups in Iraq and Syria
* Moderate rebel groups in Syria
* Syrian regime
* U.S.
* Iran
* Turkey
* Saudi Arabia
* Lebanese militants Hezbollah
posted by gwint at 9:18 AM on January 4
**Imagine the state of a nation from the river to the sea if the population did include such enterprising people who managed to do this under blockade and aren't treated as second-class citizens at best or human vermin at worst. Maybe you wouldn't need to import so many different types of workers.
It's amazing how it's almost never discussed or mentioned that Israel has over 1m Arab citizens. They are often treated terribly and are very clearly second-hand citizens if you actually study the details, despite nominally being equal.
But they do have basic human rights, are not bombed or humiliated daily, and have jobs and are able to build businesses, get educations, and enjoy all the benefits of the welfare state as their Jewish neighbors. And in 75 years they have very rarely been involved in any "terrorism," resistance groups, or political violence of virtually any kind. And they have become among Israel's most successful students, coders, designers, etc. And yet this is never brought up, any where.
posted by chaz at 12:08 PM on January 4 [15 favorites]
It's amazing how it's almost never discussed or mentioned that Israel has over 1m Arab citizens. They are often treated terribly and are very clearly second-hand citizens if you actually study the details, despite nominally being equal.
But they do have basic human rights, are not bombed or humiliated daily, and have jobs and are able to build businesses, get educations, and enjoy all the benefits of the welfare state as their Jewish neighbors. And in 75 years they have very rarely been involved in any "terrorism," resistance groups, or political violence of virtually any kind. And they have become among Israel's most successful students, coders, designers, etc. And yet this is never brought up, any where.
posted by chaz at 12:08 PM on January 4 [15 favorites]
And in 75 years they have very rarely been involved in any "terrorism," resistance groups, or political violence of virtually any kind. And they have become among Israel's most successful students, coders, designers, etc. And yet this is never brought up, any where.
wow chaz. I'm sort of surprised that I haven't seen this in any of the discourse here yet, but it's an excellent point.
posted by kensington314 at 12:13 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
wow chaz. I'm sort of surprised that I haven't seen this in any of the discourse here yet, but it's an excellent point.
posted by kensington314 at 12:13 PM on January 4 [1 favorite]
ISIS Enemies
* Iraqi government and military
* Shia militias
* Moderate Sunnis in Iraq
* Kurdish fighters in Iraq and Syria
* Other Sunni jihadist groups in Iraq and Syria
* Moderate rebel groups in Syria
* Syrian regime
* U.S.
* Iran
* Turkey
* Saudi Arabia
* Lebanese militants Hezbollah
That is such a wild list. Enemy of my enemy, etc.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:23 PM on January 4
* Iraqi government and military
* Shia militias
* Moderate Sunnis in Iraq
* Kurdish fighters in Iraq and Syria
* Other Sunni jihadist groups in Iraq and Syria
* Moderate rebel groups in Syria
* Syrian regime
* U.S.
* Iran
* Turkey
* Saudi Arabia
* Lebanese militants Hezbollah
That is such a wild list. Enemy of my enemy, etc.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:23 PM on January 4
Mother and Uncle of a US Serviceman Are Rescued from Gaza in a Secret Operation
posted by clavdivs at 4:04 PM on January 4
posted by clavdivs at 4:04 PM on January 4
Because of course it's fine to murder probably close to 30,000 Palestinians, but heaven forfend two American citizens get killed. Especially if they're related to our own personal babykilling war machine!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:01 PM on January 4 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:01 PM on January 4 [4 favorites]
And they have become among Israel's most successful students, coders, designers, etc. And yet this is never brought up, any where
Exactly. There's always mentions of the fear of population overwhelm, of how that will lose their Jewish character. But coming from a country who also did some shennanigans in incorporating other native demographics before forming a country with Singapore with its Chinese majority (though perhaps not including actual acts of terrorism, to reference Avi Shlaim's work and testimony with the Iraqi Jews), and yet not even managed to reach overwhelming population majority until very lately (meaning post-withdrawal by Singapore), I find the rhetoric as racist as when espoused by my own ethnofascists.
posted by cendawanita at 5:31 PM on January 4 [4 favorites]
Exactly. There's always mentions of the fear of population overwhelm, of how that will lose their Jewish character. But coming from a country who also did some shennanigans in incorporating other native demographics before forming a country with Singapore with its Chinese majority (though perhaps not including actual acts of terrorism, to reference Avi Shlaim's work and testimony with the Iraqi Jews), and yet not even managed to reach overwhelming population majority until very lately (meaning post-withdrawal by Singapore), I find the rhetoric as racist as when espoused by my own ethnofascists.
posted by cendawanita at 5:31 PM on January 4 [4 favorites]
Intercept: CNN runs Gaza coverage past Jerusalem team operating under shadow of IDF censor
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:36 AM on January 5 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:36 AM on January 5 [2 favorites]
+972 Magazine: Inside Israel’s torture camp for Gaza detainees
The Israeli army confirmed to +972 and Local Call that detainees from Gaza died at the facility. “There are known cases of deaths of detainees held in the detention facility,” the IDF Spokesperson said. “In accordance with the procedures, an examination is conducted for every death of a detainee, including an examination regarding the circumstances of death. The bodies of the detainees are being held in accordance with military orders.”posted by kmt at 9:24 AM on January 5 [13 favorites]
In video testimonies, Palestinians who were released back to Gaza describe cases in which soldiers put out cigarettes on detainees’ bodies and even gave them electric shocks. “I was detained for 18 days,” a young man told Al Jazeera. “[The soldier] sees you falling asleep, takes a lighter, and burns your back. They put out cigarettes on my back a few times. One of the guys [who was blindfolded] said to [the soldier], ‘I want to drink water,’ and the soldier told him to open his mouth and then spat in it.”
Another detainee said he was tortured for five or six days. “‘You want to go to the bathroom? Forbidden,’” he recounted being told. “[The soldier] beats you. And I’m not Hamas, what am I to blame for? But he keeps telling you: ‘You are Hamas, everyone who remains in Gaza [City] is Hamas. If you weren’t Hamas, you would have gone to the south. We told you to go south.’”
Shadi al-Adawiya, another detainee who was released, told TRT in a videotaped testimony: “They put cigarettes out on our necks, hands, and backs. They kick you in the hands and head. And there are electric shocks.”
“You can’t ask for anything,” another released detainee told Al Jazeera after arriving at a hospital in Rafah. “If you say, ‘I want a drink,’ they beat you all over your body. There is no difference between old and young. I am 62 years old. They hit me in the ribs, and I’ve had trouble breathing ever since.”
Meet Meital Yaniv, Former Israeli Soldier Turned Anti-Zionist Organizer (Democracy Now, Youtube/Piped, 12m5s)
I think the the issue here... you know I was raised extremely Israeli which also meant that I wasn't raised very Jewish, which is also a very common thing. The way that the assimilation into Israeli identity happened within my lineages was to really like remove the Jewishness and really become this like sabar heroic IDF Soldier identity...posted by flabdablet at 9:31 AM on January 5 [4 favorites]
Strengthening the edges of our spirals: A conversation between Theodor Herzl (1896) and Meital Yaniv (2019)
posted by flabdablet at 9:46 AM on January 5 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 9:46 AM on January 5 [1 favorite]
Bluey in the Genocide
We watch the cricket episode,
All laconic drawls and summer
Games, a dedicated pup learning
To play while his father is away.
His name is Rusty, he’s a star
At bat. My son laps it up, as do I
Until the end; the scene shifts
And there is the distant dad
In combat fatigues, and I learn
Even in this cartoon world
There is a desert full of dogs
Soldiers and guns, and somewhere
Out of frame, Arabs being put down.
"Bluey in the Genocide", by Omar Sakr
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:44 PM on January 5 [6 favorites]
We watch the cricket episode,
All laconic drawls and summer
Games, a dedicated pup learning
To play while his father is away.
His name is Rusty, he’s a star
At bat. My son laps it up, as do I
Until the end; the scene shifts
And there is the distant dad
In combat fatigues, and I learn
Even in this cartoon world
There is a desert full of dogs
Soldiers and guns, and somewhere
Out of frame, Arabs being put down.
"Bluey in the Genocide", by Omar Sakr
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:44 PM on January 5 [6 favorites]
I guess some might call this "Mission Accomplished"
The UN humanitarian chief has described Gaza as “uninhabitable” three months into Israel’s war with Hamas, warning that famine was looming and a public health disaster unfolding.
In a grim assessment of the devastating impact of Israel’s military response to the horrific Hamas attacks on 7 October, Martin Griffiths said that Gaza’s 2.3 million people face “daily threats to their very existence” while the world just watches.
posted by adamvasco at 4:29 AM on January 6 [1 favorite]
The UN humanitarian chief has described Gaza as “uninhabitable” three months into Israel’s war with Hamas, warning that famine was looming and a public health disaster unfolding.
In a grim assessment of the devastating impact of Israel’s military response to the horrific Hamas attacks on 7 October, Martin Griffiths said that Gaza’s 2.3 million people face “daily threats to their very existence” while the world just watches.
posted by adamvasco at 4:29 AM on January 6 [1 favorite]
The UN humanitarian chief has described Gaza as “uninhabitable” three months into Israel’s war with Hamas, warning that famine was looming and a public health disaster unfolding.
(c)
posted by busted_crayons at 8:54 AM on January 6 [5 favorites]
(c)
posted by busted_crayons at 8:54 AM on January 6 [5 favorites]
There's so much sad and terrible news i haven't been able to keep up posting any of it. Just this morning, Israel deliberately murdered more journalists, including the last surviving son of Wael el-Dahdouh (himself a very important journalist, most of whose family has been killed in the last 92 days).
Also this week in Sydney, Australia a Zionist strapped a bomb (actually a convincing fake, but definitely a threat) to a car bc the car's owner flies the flag of Palestine.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:07 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]
Also this week in Sydney, Australia a Zionist strapped a bomb (actually a convincing fake, but definitely a threat) to a car bc the car's owner flies the flag of Palestine.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:07 PM on January 7 [7 favorites]
from adrienneleigh's link:
posted by kmt at 2:18 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
However, despite what he believed was intimidation, he is adamant about continuing to fly the flag and said he was “proud to be standing on the right side of history”.Thank you for posting this. This is the way.
“If that means taking a tiny smidgen of what people in the occupied territories deal with everyday, then I’ll put my hand up for that,” he said.
posted by kmt at 2:18 AM on January 8 [3 favorites]
Paul Biggar: I can't sleep
When you read about the Holocaust and the Nazis, you like to imagine you'd be the good guy. You'd fight the Nazis, you'd free the concentration camps. But apparently I wouldn't. Apparently I would have just sat there paralyzed, incapable of doing anything about the genocide I see every day. Unable to think of any way to help. All I can do is retweet and protest and write a stupid blog post. I feel so stupid.posted by kmt at 4:20 AM on January 8 [16 favorites]
I wasn't ready to see that my friends are Brownshirts [34]. That they actively cheer on the genocide [35]. The anger, the desire – the need even – for retribution against innocent civilians. I wasn't ready for my friends being camp guards, party officials, propagandists.
I'll say this: you'd expect a not inconsiderable list of MeFites to start posting retractions and regrets. Between this and the Claudine Gay discussion, it's certainly eye opening to see people embracing and espousing some really shitty takes
in my own family, I had to leave a Zoom because I'm just unable to hear a both-sidesing of this situation.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:52 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
in my own family, I had to leave a Zoom because I'm just unable to hear a both-sidesing of this situation.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:52 AM on January 8 [9 favorites]
That piece from Paul Biggar is good. There was a bit toward the beginning that gave me a slight pause:
posted by eviemath at 10:22 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
The inhumanity of the soldiers is unbearable. They shoot civilians in the street [7], imprison and torture children [8], and strip and humiliate innocent men [9]. But the soldiers are having fun [10]. They're posting to TikTok [11], doing some war crimes [12], then celebrating on the beach [13]. I hate them. I hate them.From afar, I can see that this is also the reaction of many to what Hamas did on Oct. 7, and it’s that visceral feeling that was harnessed by Netanyahu’s government and fascists and fascist-adjacent actors in eg. the US to justify and create buy-in for the genocide that we’re currently seeing in Gaza. But Biggar avoids dehumanizing those he disagrees with, even when they are supporting or engaging in actions he find morally abhorrent. He begins by describing his feelings and reactions, but is able to go on to propose principled (not retributive) actions he and those in a similar position can take to oppose the destruction of Gaza. It’s a really good example, in fact, of honoring one’s own feelings - including very strong hurt, pain, disappointment or abandonment, and to some degree fear - while acting based on one’s principles.
posted by eviemath at 10:22 AM on January 8 [8 favorites]
Was watching Beau of the Fifth Column on YT and heard him talk about UAE refused PM’s request to pay 150,000 Palestinian workers barred by Israel – report.
posted by phigmov at 6:47 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
UAE President Mohammed bin Zayed reportedly rebuffed a request from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for Abu Dhabi to pay unemployment benefits to the Palestinian workers who Israel has refused to allow to return to their jobs since October 7.Was reported via Axios.
posted by phigmov at 6:47 PM on January 8 [2 favorites]
More This is the way: Ofer Cassif is an Israeli MK and he is not a fan of the war. It's important to point out that there are Israelis and Israeli government officials who are challenging the narrative of the war.
My constitutional duty is to Israeli society and all its residents, not to a government whose members and its coalition are calling for ethnic cleansing and even actual genocide. They are the ones who harm the country and the people, they are the ones who led to South Africa’s petition to The Hague, not me and my friends,posted by euphorb at 7:54 PM on January 8 [5 favorites]
non-breaking news essays and articles
Ok this is long because I'm including excerpts, and this is not an unordered list:
- Alon Mizrahi: Maybe it’s time we started talking about how terrible Zionism is for Jews, too
The immigration trauma suffered by my Moroccan-born mother was never treated or addressed, as has been the case for the vast majority of Moroccan Jews in white-supremacist Israel. My father’s complicated upbringing in late stages British Mandate Palestine and young Israel, was, too, only ever mentioned in passing and in jest.
[...] Absolute conformity with all ideologies and narratives of the Jewish state was expected and easily given where I grew up. We were Zionist Mizrahi Jews; our heroes were brave white Zionist soldiers, intellectuals, bohemians, scientists and survivors of horrors we could not even fathom. As indoctrinated and expected, we looked upon life with a mix of death-enticing paranoia and death-defying valor, both equally fabricated by Zionist propaganda.
Side note: when this is all over, and the psychological mechanisms that sustained Zionism inside Israel are revealed, the world is going to be in genuine awe of Israel’s brainwashing prowess.
Doubting Zionism, in short, was not part of my upbringing. Its cruelty, denialisms and contradictions, though, could never fully escape the consciousness, spoken or tacit, of a household led by two psychologically strained yet cultured, curious, and intelligent Zionist Mizrahi working class parents.
My father, for instance, would watch with tangible sadness images of Palestinians families whose homes had just been bulldozed to the ground by the IDF, playing on our technological wonder of the first Lebanon war, the color TV.
[...] I was taught only Jewish suffering was worthy of recognition simply because a legitimately sad Arab was never introduced to me. And in the cases I was exposed to the suffering of Palestinians, for instance families next to their bulldozed homes, it was always, always juxtaposed and interlaced with their supposed, incorrigible, terrorist actions, thoughts and emotions.
I was supposed to gloat at their just suffering, just as an Arab kid was to see it as a warning.
[...] But if Zionism is the subject, and given it is indeed a practice, then I don’t know another practice who’s performers demand to be judged not based on what they do, but rather on what they say they believe, and what the people to whom they do what they do supposedly believe about them, or what they believe others believe about them or about the people to whom they do what they do. I have never seen any other group of people granted that bizarre demand, too.
On the propaganda, or discourse front, Israel’s main success has been this ability to keep the discussion always about nebulous things as supposed, perceived or suspected character and beliefs, instead of concrete things, say well documented actions.
What Israel is doing is all that should be discussed when talking about Israel. But we are conditioned and pressured to never have that conversation.
The dehumanization (and mass killing, and ethnic cleansing, and oppression) of the Palestinians has been the real political purpose and consequence of this habit. Misrepresenting the discussion about Israel to actually be about the image or nature of Jews underpins, really, the destruction the Palestinian people.
And that is because making the discussion about Israel’s actions impossible by painting it as a defamation of Jews translates, politically, into a taboo around the humanity of Palestinians, who are always at the receiving end of Israel’s actions.
[...]
Zionism is a disaster for Jews. And I want to explain to you why.
He lists the following (with excerpts chosen by me)
Monomania
–A Jewish identity, today, cannot nourish and individual’s mind and soul. It doesn’t fill you with comfort. It barks orders, demands and chastisement at you. It doesn’t uplift, but smothers you.
And when we remember that Israel, with tragic shortsightedness, chose to be about the delegitimization and dehumanization of Palestinians, the price of the Zionist monomania gets a lot clearer. Because it is always a bad idea to be about one thing, but it is a millionfold worse to be about one thing which is, actually, the violent denial of dignity and humanity from other people.
Was abandoning the histories of a thousand Jewish communities worth tossing into the a trash can for merciless nationalistic zeal?
A conflict endlessly expanding
—By pursuing systematically its project of dehumanizing and subjugating the Palestinians, Zionism continually invites more and more people to be its enemies. This may play beautifully into a victim-aggressor mentality, but is utter madness in every respect nonetheless.
The Palestinians, then Arabs, then Muslims, then human rights groups, then liberals, then whomever suffered from and opposes colonialism and imperialism: there is not a soul on earth, so it seems, Zionism gives up on making an enemy of.
A closed loop of fear and hate
—The Zionist model does not allow for course correction. Spoiled by too much American support, Zionism lives in a fantasy world in which it can do what it wants to anyone, forever, with impunity.
Whereas other groups, upon being confronted by great violence or resistance, were forced to update their vision, Zionism never had to internalize a strategic defeat. Every time it hit a wall, America supplied it with a bigger bulldozer, thus relieving Israel of a duty all life-loving entities must uphold, namely to reconsider its actions based on the environment’s reaction to them.
Historical shortsightedness
—We Jews should be the ones calling for unity and love among the nations. But Zionism took that for us. Now we are for more war and more international Darwinism, the like of which nearly made us extinct. This rich idiocy, in particular, I will never get over.
A self undoing big bang
--In reality, the minute European Jews convened the First Zionist Congress in summer 1897 Basel, the fate of Gaza’s children in the winter of 2023 was doomed. And it is so, and has been so, for the very cruel existential fact that once a system is started as racist and exclusive, it is almost impossible to make it otherwise.
[...] Palestinians are, and forever will be, the foremost victims of Zionism. But for too long we have neglected to look at the terrible price Jews have been paying for it in terms of their humanity, their morality, their freedom and creativity and, tragicomically, their sense of place and belonging among our brothers and sisters of all races and places, including, yes, Palestine.
- (Slate) What Is JewBelong’s Deal?
Is this meant to be a message representing an inclusive, welcoming Jewish community? Is it meant to welcome Jews back into the fold, so long as they agree with the billboard on Israel’s war? Do the people erecting these signs not expect them to alienate Jews who might otherwise feel like they do belong from feelings of Jewish solidarity? Do they not care? To establish a particular position on Israel as a criterion for belonging in American Jewishness is to attempt to exile a significant percentage of American Jews, which is an organization’s prerogative, but an ironic one if that group is predicated on the idea that a Jew is a Jew, and that all are entitled to this tradition and identity.
All of which is to say that JewBelong is arguably drawing many of the same borders as legacy American Jewish institutions have for decades. JewBelong’s red lines just happen to be hot pink.
- Steve Salaita: So You’re a Professor? Here’s What You Can Do to Oppose Genocide
Zionist groups have organized hundreds of defamation campaigns against Palestinian students and faculty, often resulting in employment termination and other serious forms of recrimination. These campaigns don’t exist in a vacuum. Targeting Palestinians and anti-Zionists is an extension of the genocide, or at least one of its attendant tactics. And then, of course, many of the campuses are somehow invested in the Zionist entity—financially, politically, or logistically. It does no good to say that “we” aren’t affected by what happens “there.”
The following is a list of suggestions for Western academics, with the understanding that not all professors are equal and each campus is different in terms of its cultural and economic composition. In turn, I have tried to be comprehensive, offering comments that I hope will be useful to everyone from contingent faculty whose employment is precarious to senior scholars with big platforms at elite institutions. (The latter are much more likely to be facilitating the genocide, either obliquely or explicitly, but nevertheless.)
One thing is clear: the world is now experiencing a moral crisis whose enormity will reshape political attitudes and alliances for generations to come. Pretending that life, no matter how sheltered or comfortable, can simply continue as normal is its own kind of moral crisis
His suggestions: Defend Palestinian students; Defend Palestinian colleagues; Boycott; Divest; Invite People from Gaza; Organize or Attend a Demonstration; Direct Action; Teach Palestine; Stop Pandering to Customs of Civility; Shun the Genocidaires; and Speak; or better still: Listen.
- (NYT Opinion; Michelle Goldberg) America Must Face Up to Israel’s Extremism
.If you grew up in a liberal Zionist household, as I did, you’ve probably heard this (possibly apocryphal) Meir quote: “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.” There’s much to criticize in this sentiment — its self-regard, the way it positions Israel as the victim even when it’s doing the killing; still, it at least suggests a tortured ambivalence about meting out violence. But this attitude, which Israelis sometimes call “shooting and crying,” is now as obsolete as Meir’s Zionist socialism, at least among Israel’s leaders.
Among both American and European politicians, said my friend Daniel Levy, a former Israeli negotiator with the Palestinians who now heads the U.S./Middle East Project, there’s a “willful refusal to take seriously just how extreme this government is — whether before Oct. 7 or subsequently.” I’m tempted to say that Ben-Gvir and Smotrich said the quiet part out loud, but in truth they just said the loud part louder.
- (Politico) Second Biden official resigns over Israel-Hamas war concerns
Habash, who is Palestinian American, cited the nationwide turmoil on college campuses following the attacks. The Education Department must protect all students who wish to protest the war, he said, noting the “alarming” violence against Palestinian and Muslim Americans since the war broke out.
“Simply put, criticism of the Israeli government, and its violations of international humanitarian law, is not antisemitic,” he wrote. “Claims that conflate criticism of Israel’s government with antisemitism only seek to silence dissent against a foreign government.”
- (Boston Review) False Messiahs, by Barnett R. Rubin
In the wake of these waves of revolution and reaction, Jewish youth became increasingly radicalized. “To them,” writes historian Jonathan Frankel, “the revolution meant a struggle not only for social equality and political freedom, but also for national, for Jewish, liberation.”
This is the tradition that was transmitted to me and many American Jews my age about the origins of Zionism through education, folk memory, and artifacts like the photograph above. For many who grew up in this tradition, it is inconceivable that this ideology of liberation and self-determination could have anything in common with colonialism, any more than Rose and her friend did. In this light, the founding and repeated military victories of the State of Israel have formed an emotionally compelling historical narrative, echoing the praise of God in the Passover Haggadah: “He took us from slavery to freedom, from sorrow to joy, and from mourning to festivity, from deep darkness to great light and from bondage to redemption.” The Holocaust becomes in retrospect the “birth pangs” of the messiah—the pains and tribulations that the Jewish people will suffer before the ingathering of the exiles and their return to the Land of Israel, as foretold by the prophet Jeremiah: “it is a time of trouble unto Jacob, but out of it shall he be saved.”
This drama of Jewish history, however, was and remains embedded in world history, even if news of the latter was sometimes slow to reach Kamenetz-Podolsk. Zionists ultimately succeeded in transposing their efforts at self-liberation from Jewish into world history as no Jewish activists had done since the early Christians. But in the process, Zionism became something fundamentally different from the visions of Kamenetz-Podolsk.
[...] For Europeans, “colonialism” was not a derogatory term but the basis of world order, under which the “civilized” nations of Europe ruled the rest of the world without a thought that non-white peoples had rights or political agency. Herzl wrote that Zionism would establish a Jewish state, “secured by public law,” which at that time meant the international colonialist order.
[...] The same year that the Zionist Socialist Workers’ Party was founded—1905, about a year before the picture of Rose and her friend was taken—Naguib Azoury, a Lebanese Christian who had been deputy governor of Ottoman Jerusalem, published his manifesto of Arab nationalism, Le réveil de la nation arabe. Azoury opened his book with an eloquent warning to Arabs about the danger of Zionism, which he defined as an attempt by the Jews not to free themselves from anti-Semitism but to re-establish the ancient Kingdom of Israel on a grand scale, just as the Arab nation was trying to free itself of Ottoman domination in the same territory. “The fate of the entire world,” Azoury wrote, “will depend on the final result of this struggle between these two peoples.”
[...] in November 1917, Zionist diplomacy led by Dr. Chaim Weizmann had persuaded the British cabinet to issue the Balfour Declaration, which stated that the government “view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.” From the Jewish point of view, this amounted to the fulfillment of prophecy and hopes. For the British such a homeland would secure British colonial rule in Palestine and Syria after the defeat of the Ottomans, protect the Suez Canal (essential to connecting Britain to its Asian colonies), gain the support of the Jewish population caught between anti-Semitic Russia (Britain’s ally) and the Central Powers, and realize aspirations of Christian Zionism.
The abolition of a major Islamic institution was thus closely linked to the adoption of Zionism as an official doctrine of the British empire, and both resulted from the British policy of defeating and dismembering the largest and most powerful Muslim state.
This was the moment that Zionism became a partner of British colonialism, even as the partnership inevitably frayed. Neither the British nor the Zionist movement considered the views of the people who lived in Palestine, 96 percent of them Arab. By Herzl’s own account in his diary, he did not speak to a single Arab during his 1898 visit to Palestine.
[...] Why did Zionism and many Jews accept this bargain? As Europeans, even if oppressed ones, they largely shared the virtually unchallenged assumptions of European colonial thinking. Circumstances also provided them with little choice. Given the opportunity, many—perhaps most—of the Jewish refugees from Hitler would have gone to the United States rather than Palestine. But by the 1930s, the tightening grip of anti-Semitism on the Western world convinced even erstwhile Jewish opponents of Zionism that they had no choice. Zionism’s claim that Jews could never be safe among other nations was proving true, not only in Nazi Germany but also in the “liberal” west.
[...] As colonial subjects, the Palestinian Arabs, unlike the Americans or British, had no sovereign power to regulate immigration into their territory. The combination of the Nazi regime, the exclusionary consensus expressed at the Evian conference, and the British mandate on Palestine together imposed a disproportionate burden of accepting Jewish refugees on the Palestinians, whose tiny country had nothing to do with the origin of the crisis and was deprived of any means of self-government.
[...] When the Peel Commission appointed by the British to recommend a solution endorsed a partition of the country in October 1937, it triggered an armed uprising.
Zionist historiography presents this as the first case of the Palestinians’ “never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” It figures on the list of occasions that the Palestinians rejected “compromise” in favor of conflict. But from the Palestinian point of view, a colonial empire had arbitrarily decided to confiscate part of their national territory after making at most token efforts to consult them. It was not a “compromise”—a mutually agreed outcome of negotiations—but an imperial diktat that showed neither respect for the Palestinians’ right to self-determination nor any willingness to share the burden of welcoming refugees from Nazism.
[...] The reality of a colonial enterprise, bloody conflict, and decades of living at close quarters with a hostile population had its own logic, independent of Herzl’s utopian visions or any doctrines or analyses published in Der Nayer Veg. When the British left Palestine and withdrew their troops, the Nakba—or first Nakba, as some are now calling it after Israel’s assault on Gaza following October 7—was as inevitable as the massacres that accompanied the partition of India. There was no mechanism to implement the partition decreed by the British and enacted by the United Nations. Communal battles erupted between Arabs and Jews, but only the Yishuv had an effective military organization and coherent leadership.
Palestine was partitioned not according to the UN plan but according to the balance of power among the Haganah, Jordan’s Arab Legion, and the Egyptian army. The Yishuv claimed to accept partition, which granted it a sovereign territory—“secured by public law,” in Herzl’s words—for the first time, while expelling most of the Arab population from areas it controlled. It also expanded its territory from the areas allocated to the Jewish state in the partition plan to include areas allocated to the Arabs, including, among others, West Jerusalem and the densely populated corridor between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Both West Jerusalem and the corridor were ethnically cleansed.
That does not mean that a settlement requires the return of all 1948 refugees and their descendants to “Israel,” however that state may be defined by a settlement. The implementation of recognized rights is a legitimate subject for political negotiation. Not all refugees would choose to return; under a two-state solution, many might return to a Palestinian state rather than to Israel, and others would be entitled to compensation.
As for whether the State of Israel is a product of colonialism, it certainly is, unless the British Empire had nothing to do with colonialism. Without the Allied dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, the British Mandate imposed by the League of Nations, and the official status that the mandate granted to the Zionist Organization in Palestine, Israel could not have come into existence. The League of Nations Covenant wrote colonialism and racism into international law when it defined mandates as an institution through which “advanced nations” would be entrusted with the “tutelage” of “peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world.”
But the State of Israel is not the product only of colonialism. Without Jewish persecution in Europe, the intellectual and political effort that this formerly defenseless people made to place itself permanently on the map of the world, and the long Jewish historical and religious attachment to the land, there would also have been no Israel. It is also the case that without the violent expulsion of Jewish populations from the Arab world in reprisal for the founding of the state and the violence of the Nakba, the Israel of today would not exist.
Are Jews “indigenous” or settler colonialists in Palestine? They are both. The Jewish people originated in this land, and after two thousand years of exile, they developed an ideology and a political rather than purely religious movement of “return.” But their historical memory was not shared by the land’s inhabitants. The historical memory of the Jewish people did not create the right or capacity to confiscate or occupy a single dunam of land against the will of its possessors. The historical memory of one people, however tenacious, creates no right to rule over another.
That does not mean that a settlement requires the return of all 1948 refugees and their descendants to “Israel,” however that state may be defined by a settlement. The implementation of recognized rights is a legitimate subject for political negotiation. Not all refugees would choose to return; under a two-state solution, many might return to a Palestinian state rather than to Israel, and others would be entitled to compensation.
[...] Israeli Jews are settler colonialists with a historical memory of indigenous origin. This includes the Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab and other Muslim countries. They were indigenous to the region but not to Palestine, except in their own historical memory. That historical memory distinguishes Israel from other settler colonial states. So does the fact that the nation founded through settler colonialism has no “mother country” to which its members might return, as the French did from Algeria.
[...] The question “does Israel have the right to exist?” could have been meaningfully debated before the state existed, but now the only answer is, “Israel exists.” As a member of the United Nations, it has the right to continue to exist and to exercise the right to self-defense against other states. According to the UN charter, it also has the right to defend its territorial integrity, but implementation of that right requires defining the borders of the State of Israel. This depends on a peace settlement recognizing Palestinian national rights. Only such a settlement can establish Israel’s security as a state.
Genesis is not destiny. Documenting the historical fact that Israel came into existence in part through Zionism’s collaboration with colonialism does not mean that the only solution is a “decolonization” that would destroy the state and expel its inhabitants. What is objectionable about colonialism is not the immigration or settlement of a population of a different ethnic or national origin, or of people that are in some sense non-indigenous, but the domination of one group over another.
The current war in Gaza exemplifies some of the worst that colonialism has to offer, including both Israel’s indiscriminate massacre of civilian populations, justified as self-defense, and Hamas’s indiscriminate massacre of civilians, justified as resistance. The indiscriminate use of force has been matched by the deployment of falsified history and distorted concepts in defense of the violence—falsehoods and distortions that perpetuate the conflict. Israel is a product, in part, of colonialism, but colonialism is a contingent historical reality. The motives that make some people colonialist and others anticolonialist are not always so different. People are victims or perpetrators in the present because of their relationships with other people in the present, not because of whatever history they may have as victims or perpetrators under other circumstances. “Victim” is no one’s permanent identity, but a role in relation to others—a role that can and must be transformed.
[...] Israel continues to lurch headlong into an offensive that leading scholars of the Holocaust have warned appears to be on the path to genocide. The transformation of victim into perpetrator does not inspire hope or give suffering meaning. Nor does comparing current events to the Holocaust amount to equating the two. As Masha Gessen has argued, it is impossible to learn lessons from an event if all comparisons to it are forbidden.
- (Newsweek) Joe Biden Campaign Volunteers Are Quitting in 'Droves’
"It is not enough to merely be the alternative to Donald Trump," the campaigners continued. "The campaign has to shift the feeling in the pits of voters' stomachs, the same feeling that weighs on us every day as we fight for your reelection. The only way to do that is to call for a ceasefire."
"You have said numerous times that silence in the face of human rights violations is complicity," the letter added "We agree, which is why we are speaking out now. Every minute that passes without a ceasefire is another life that is lost—a life that could have been saved with political action from you.”
- (Juan Cole, piece by Yakov M. Rabin) How Long can Israel Defy the World?
Support for Israel, tending to increase with income, has become a class issue. It serves as another reminder of the growing estrangement between the rulers and the ruled, the proverbial One Per Cent and the rest. It remains to be seen if popular frustration with the hypocrisy of governments in their support for the war on Gaza may one day result in political change that would begin to dent Israel’s impunity.
Israel is a state without borders. Geographically, it has expanded with military conquest or colonization. The Zionist movement and successive Israeli governments have taken great pains never to define the borders they envisage for their state. Israeli secret services and the army pay no heed to borders, striking targets in its neighboring countries at will. This borderless character is also embodied in Israel’s claim that it belongs to the world’s Jews rather than to its citizens. This leads to the overt transformation of Jewish organizations around the world into Israeli agents. This is particularly the case in the United States. Israeli agents, such AIPAC, ensure Israel’s interests in elections on all levels, from school boards to the White House. Israel has even played the legislative against the executive branch in Washington. Yet this unabashed political interference attracts a lot less criticism in mainstream media that the alleged meddling of China or Russia. Israel also intervenes in the political process of other countries.
[...] Zionism vigorously rejects this “exilic” tradition, which it deems “consolation of the weak”. Generations of Israelis have been brought up on the values of martial courage, proud of serving in the military. Zionists regularly refer to their state as a continuation of biblical history. The idea of the Greater Israel is rooted in the literal reading of the Pentateuch. Zionism demands total commitment and brooks little opposition or criticism. The passion of the Zionist commitment has led to assassination of opponents, pitched fathers against sons, splitting Jewish families and communities. The historian Eli Barnavi, former Israeli ambassador in Paris, warns that “the dream of a ‘Third Kingdom of Israel’ could only lead to totalitarianism”. Indeed, many Jewish community leaders, undisturbed by the specter of “dual loyalty”, insist that allegiance to the state of Israel must prevail over all others, including allegiance toward their own country.
[...] Generationally, Israel appears an exception among the wealthy countries. With every generation Israelis become more combative and anti-Arab. While in other countries young Jews are usually less conservative than their parents and embrace ideas of social and political justice, young Israeli Jews defy this trend. Israeli education inculcates martial values and the belief that, had the state of Israel existed before World War II, the Nazi genocide would never have taken place. What sustains the fragile unity of the non-Arab majority is fear: a siege mentality that most frequently takes the self-image of a virtuous victim determined to prevent a repetition of the Nazi genocide. The memory of that European tragedy has become a tool of mobilizing Jews to the Zionist cause. Its political utility is still far from exhausted.
Use of the genocide to foster Israeli patriotism has been unflagging since the early 1960s. After an air show in Poland in 2008, three Israeli F-15 fighter jets bearing the Star of David and piloted by descendants of genocide survivors overflew the former Nazi extermination camp while two hundred Israeli soldiers observed the flyover from the Birkenau death camp adjacent to Auschwitz. The remarks of one of the Israeli pilots stressed confidence in the armed forces: “This is triumph for us. Sixty years ago, we had nothing. No country, no army, nothing.”
State schools promote the model of a fighter against “the Arabs” (the word “Palestinian” is usually avoided), glorifies military service turning it into an aspiration and a rite of passage to adulthood. No wonder that Hamas and, by extension, all the Gazans, are often referred to as Nazis. Dozens of Israeli officials and public figures have openly incited genocide of Palestinians: dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, flattening it into a parking lot, etc. Israeli political scientists have pointed out that civic religion provides no answers to questions of ultimate meaning, while at the same time it obliges its practitioners to accept the ultimate sacrifice. Civic space in Israel has become associated above all with “death for the fatherland.”
[...] Critical voices within and particularly outside Israel call on the Israelis to recognize that “the Zionist experiment was a tragic error. The sooner it is put to rest, the better it will be for all mankind.” In practice this would mean ensuring equality for all the inhabitants between the Jordan and the Mediterranean and a transformation of the existing ethnocracy into a state of all its citizens. However, Israeli society is conditioned to see in such calls an existential threat and a rejection of “Israel’s right to exist”.
The settler colonial logic radicalizes society in the direction of ethnic cleansing and even genocide. No Israeli government would be capable of evacuating hundreds of thousands of settlers to free space for a separate Palestinian state; the chances of giving up Zionist supremacy in the entire land are even lower. Only strong-armed international pressure may make Israel consider such a reform.
- (Haaretz opinion; Gideon Levy) No Israeli Soldiers Have Stood Up and Refused to Participate in This Evil War
The absence of insubordination is even clearer in view of what happened here last year prior to October 7. Disobedience became a more legitimate and common weapon than ever before; thousands of pilots and reservists threatened to use it.
In July the Brothers in Arms movement announced that about 10,000 reserve soldiers from 40 units wouldn't volunteer for reserve duty if the regime coup passed. They joined the 180 pilots and navigators who stated already in March that they wouldn't report to training drills, along with 300 military doctors and 650 reserve soldiers from special ops and cyber. With so many people threatening disobedience, its complete absence now is especially thunderous.
The conclusion is that many of the career and reserve soldiers are convinced the regime coup was a just and proper cause for insubordination, in contrast to the bloodshed and destruction in Gaza. The army is trashing an entire region along with its residents, and that doesn't bother our forces' consciences. The reasonableness clause bothered some of them more. Where are those 10,000 soldiers who threatened disobedience because of Benjamin Netanyahu and Yariv Levin now? Where are the 180 pilots?
They're busy bombing Gaza, flattening it, destroying it and killing its residents indiscriminately, including its thousands of children. How did it happen that bombing Salah Shehadeh's house, which killed 14 residents, 11 of them children, led to the "pilots' letter," in which 27 pilots stated they would refuse to serve on attack missions – and now, not even a postcard from a single pilot? What happened to our pilots since 2003, and what happened to the soldiers?
The answer is seemingly clear. Israel says that after the October 7 horror it's allowed to do anything, and anything it does is worthy, moral and legal. Insubordination during war is also a much more drastic step than insubordination in training, and indeed it borders on treason. It could hurt the brothers in combat. But the total absence of disobedience after some 90 days of evil warfare is not something to be happy about. It is not good. Maybe in a few years, some people will regret it. Maybe some will be ashamed of it.
- and finally, an English translation of a Hebrew translation in Haaretz of an Arabic post on facebook by Ahmed Mustafa in Khan Younis, shared on fedi:
I watch your revelry, you rabble, in the fresh spilling of our blood. I see how Al Jazeera's viewership spikes into the hundreds of thousands when armed groups post their military pronouncements produced like movies. They satiate the cravings of all the gleeful human trash who do not taste destruction, all the defective human garbage wanting the war to continue, all those who do not want the groups to forgo anything as long as they keep broadcasting their operations and exporting their national orgasm.
In their lexicon do not exist the values of "admitting failure" or the human measure of saving Palestinian lives from the appetite of the Israeli war machine. The masses, along with the armed groups, are preparing to declare victory over Israel even if it comes with the last breath of the last child living on Palestinian soil.
I address all the revelers outside our country’s borders: Shut your mouths, all of you. Al Jazeera does not show you what I see here in #Gaza - hunger, thirst, cold, disease, degradation, protection money, security anarchy, an inhuman reality. You do not hear the voices of the displaced, raising their hands to the heavens and wailing to God over Israel's deeds and the catastrophe brought upon them by the groups. Al Jazeera does not point its cameras at the people cutting down cemetery trees to cook food for their children. It does not broadcast to you the practice of four young women surrounding their friend so she can relieve herself in the open air without water or toilet paper.
No #AlJazeera reporter tells you about the blood staining the clothes of women who could not obtain sanitary products for their monthly period. Al Jazeera does not host even one person crying out over donated tents being sold to destitute displaced people at astronomical prices. It does not show the angry and homeless sleeping on the wet sidewalks with no supplies and no shelter. It does not cover the looting of humanitarian relief convoys, and much more.
The “official” media mechanisms need to present Gaza as a power; they want to boast about their ally and gain broadcasting rights from them. Israel picks up on this discourse and uses it as propagandistic justification for the continued crushing of the Strip. There is no benefit in critical coverage of the catastrophe or humanitarian issues as long as there are those, like #Qatar for example, who use our blood to boost their influence in the region.
What benefit will the “official” media gain from drawing viewers’ attention to the immense hardships of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, including elderly parents suffering from high blood pressure and unable to find suitable medications or substitutes? What interest does this media have in covering the abject failure of the armed groups’ government, which it supports, a government that after the outbreak of war disappeared from the scene and completely shirked responsibility? What will the media gain if we citizens stand before its cameras and demand the groups provide our innocent children refuge in their tunnels, like the shelter given to the young Israeli woman recently released?
The fact that none of you are interested in the fate of the ordinary Gazan puts you on the side of the occupation: just like it, you unequivocally adopt the image of us as subhuman creatures that can bear any suffering as long as we enjoy a bit of straw and fodder, indifferent to our living conditions and the circumstances of our deaths. The bodies tossed in Gaza’s streets and ruins without proper burial do not shake your hearts. After satisfying what you call “heroism,” you are ready and willing for broadcasts of even harsher atrocities. All at the expense of our blood; only our blood, you rabble, not anyone else’s.
Stop this desecration immediately, at any cost. Open the #Rafah land crossing to Palestinian civilian movement so that those who remain here in the destruction are only those willing to trade their bodies for “steadfastness.” That way we can part from the project of our forced expulsion. Until then, shut your mouths, all of you; you revelers chanting worthless slogans of heroism over our spilled blood in vain. Shut your mouths, all of you; you who trade in us and profit off our souls from the luxury hotels in #Doha, the presidential courts in Iran, the French Riviera of Turkey, the conference halls in Algeria, the alleys of Amman and the neighborhoods of Beirut.
You have made our blood into a cynical amusement, which the occupation forces delight in shedding and feebleminded dance upon. Stop immediately.
posted by cendawanita at 1:55 AM on January 9 [20 favorites]
Ok this is long because I'm including excerpts, and this is not an unordered list:
- Alon Mizrahi: Maybe it’s time we started talking about how terrible Zionism is for Jews, too
The immigration trauma suffered by my Moroccan-born mother was never treated or addressed, as has been the case for the vast majority of Moroccan Jews in white-supremacist Israel. My father’s complicated upbringing in late stages British Mandate Palestine and young Israel, was, too, only ever mentioned in passing and in jest.
[...] Absolute conformity with all ideologies and narratives of the Jewish state was expected and easily given where I grew up. We were Zionist Mizrahi Jews; our heroes were brave white Zionist soldiers, intellectuals, bohemians, scientists and survivors of horrors we could not even fathom. As indoctrinated and expected, we looked upon life with a mix of death-enticing paranoia and death-defying valor, both equally fabricated by Zionist propaganda.
Side note: when this is all over, and the psychological mechanisms that sustained Zionism inside Israel are revealed, the world is going to be in genuine awe of Israel’s brainwashing prowess.
Doubting Zionism, in short, was not part of my upbringing. Its cruelty, denialisms and contradictions, though, could never fully escape the consciousness, spoken or tacit, of a household led by two psychologically strained yet cultured, curious, and intelligent Zionist Mizrahi working class parents.
My father, for instance, would watch with tangible sadness images of Palestinians families whose homes had just been bulldozed to the ground by the IDF, playing on our technological wonder of the first Lebanon war, the color TV.
[...] I was taught only Jewish suffering was worthy of recognition simply because a legitimately sad Arab was never introduced to me. And in the cases I was exposed to the suffering of Palestinians, for instance families next to their bulldozed homes, it was always, always juxtaposed and interlaced with their supposed, incorrigible, terrorist actions, thoughts and emotions.
I was supposed to gloat at their just suffering, just as an Arab kid was to see it as a warning.
[...] But if Zionism is the subject, and given it is indeed a practice, then I don’t know another practice who’s performers demand to be judged not based on what they do, but rather on what they say they believe, and what the people to whom they do what they do supposedly believe about them, or what they believe others believe about them or about the people to whom they do what they do. I have never seen any other group of people granted that bizarre demand, too.
On the propaganda, or discourse front, Israel’s main success has been this ability to keep the discussion always about nebulous things as supposed, perceived or suspected character and beliefs, instead of concrete things, say well documented actions.
What Israel is doing is all that should be discussed when talking about Israel. But we are conditioned and pressured to never have that conversation.
The dehumanization (and mass killing, and ethnic cleansing, and oppression) of the Palestinians has been the real political purpose and consequence of this habit. Misrepresenting the discussion about Israel to actually be about the image or nature of Jews underpins, really, the destruction the Palestinian people.
And that is because making the discussion about Israel’s actions impossible by painting it as a defamation of Jews translates, politically, into a taboo around the humanity of Palestinians, who are always at the receiving end of Israel’s actions.
[...]
Zionism is a disaster for Jews. And I want to explain to you why.
He lists the following (with excerpts chosen by me)
Monomania
–A Jewish identity, today, cannot nourish and individual’s mind and soul. It doesn’t fill you with comfort. It barks orders, demands and chastisement at you. It doesn’t uplift, but smothers you.
And when we remember that Israel, with tragic shortsightedness, chose to be about the delegitimization and dehumanization of Palestinians, the price of the Zionist monomania gets a lot clearer. Because it is always a bad idea to be about one thing, but it is a millionfold worse to be about one thing which is, actually, the violent denial of dignity and humanity from other people.
Was abandoning the histories of a thousand Jewish communities worth tossing into the a trash can for merciless nationalistic zeal?
A conflict endlessly expanding
—By pursuing systematically its project of dehumanizing and subjugating the Palestinians, Zionism continually invites more and more people to be its enemies. This may play beautifully into a victim-aggressor mentality, but is utter madness in every respect nonetheless.
The Palestinians, then Arabs, then Muslims, then human rights groups, then liberals, then whomever suffered from and opposes colonialism and imperialism: there is not a soul on earth, so it seems, Zionism gives up on making an enemy of.
A closed loop of fear and hate
—The Zionist model does not allow for course correction. Spoiled by too much American support, Zionism lives in a fantasy world in which it can do what it wants to anyone, forever, with impunity.
Whereas other groups, upon being confronted by great violence or resistance, were forced to update their vision, Zionism never had to internalize a strategic defeat. Every time it hit a wall, America supplied it with a bigger bulldozer, thus relieving Israel of a duty all life-loving entities must uphold, namely to reconsider its actions based on the environment’s reaction to them.
Historical shortsightedness
—We Jews should be the ones calling for unity and love among the nations. But Zionism took that for us. Now we are for more war and more international Darwinism, the like of which nearly made us extinct. This rich idiocy, in particular, I will never get over.
A self undoing big bang
--In reality, the minute European Jews convened the First Zionist Congress in summer 1897 Basel, the fate of Gaza’s children in the winter of 2023 was doomed. And it is so, and has been so, for the very cruel existential fact that once a system is started as racist and exclusive, it is almost impossible to make it otherwise.
[...] Palestinians are, and forever will be, the foremost victims of Zionism. But for too long we have neglected to look at the terrible price Jews have been paying for it in terms of their humanity, their morality, their freedom and creativity and, tragicomically, their sense of place and belonging among our brothers and sisters of all races and places, including, yes, Palestine.
- (Slate) What Is JewBelong’s Deal?
Is this meant to be a message representing an inclusive, welcoming Jewish community? Is it meant to welcome Jews back into the fold, so long as they agree with the billboard on Israel’s war? Do the people erecting these signs not expect them to alienate Jews who might otherwise feel like they do belong from feelings of Jewish solidarity? Do they not care? To establish a particular position on Israel as a criterion for belonging in American Jewishness is to attempt to exile a significant percentage of American Jews, which is an organization’s prerogative, but an ironic one if that group is predicated on the idea that a Jew is a Jew, and that all are entitled to this tradition and identity.
All of which is to say that JewBelong is arguably drawing many of the same borders as legacy American Jewish institutions have for decades. JewBelong’s red lines just happen to be hot pink.
- Steve Salaita: So You’re a Professor? Here’s What You Can Do to Oppose Genocide
Zionist groups have organized hundreds of defamation campaigns against Palestinian students and faculty, often resulting in employment termination and other serious forms of recrimination. These campaigns don’t exist in a vacuum. Targeting Palestinians and anti-Zionists is an extension of the genocide, or at least one of its attendant tactics. And then, of course, many of the campuses are somehow invested in the Zionist entity—financially, politically, or logistically. It does no good to say that “we” aren’t affected by what happens “there.”
The following is a list of suggestions for Western academics, with the understanding that not all professors are equal and each campus is different in terms of its cultural and economic composition. In turn, I have tried to be comprehensive, offering comments that I hope will be useful to everyone from contingent faculty whose employment is precarious to senior scholars with big platforms at elite institutions. (The latter are much more likely to be facilitating the genocide, either obliquely or explicitly, but nevertheless.)
One thing is clear: the world is now experiencing a moral crisis whose enormity will reshape political attitudes and alliances for generations to come. Pretending that life, no matter how sheltered or comfortable, can simply continue as normal is its own kind of moral crisis
His suggestions: Defend Palestinian students; Defend Palestinian colleagues; Boycott; Divest; Invite People from Gaza; Organize or Attend a Demonstration; Direct Action; Teach Palestine; Stop Pandering to Customs of Civility; Shun the Genocidaires; and Speak; or better still: Listen.
- (NYT Opinion; Michelle Goldberg) America Must Face Up to Israel’s Extremism
.If you grew up in a liberal Zionist household, as I did, you’ve probably heard this (possibly apocryphal) Meir quote: “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.” There’s much to criticize in this sentiment — its self-regard, the way it positions Israel as the victim even when it’s doing the killing; still, it at least suggests a tortured ambivalence about meting out violence. But this attitude, which Israelis sometimes call “shooting and crying,” is now as obsolete as Meir’s Zionist socialism, at least among Israel’s leaders.
Among both American and European politicians, said my friend Daniel Levy, a former Israeli negotiator with the Palestinians who now heads the U.S./Middle East Project, there’s a “willful refusal to take seriously just how extreme this government is — whether before Oct. 7 or subsequently.” I’m tempted to say that Ben-Gvir and Smotrich said the quiet part out loud, but in truth they just said the loud part louder.
- (Politico) Second Biden official resigns over Israel-Hamas war concerns
Habash, who is Palestinian American, cited the nationwide turmoil on college campuses following the attacks. The Education Department must protect all students who wish to protest the war, he said, noting the “alarming” violence against Palestinian and Muslim Americans since the war broke out.
“Simply put, criticism of the Israeli government, and its violations of international humanitarian law, is not antisemitic,” he wrote. “Claims that conflate criticism of Israel’s government with antisemitism only seek to silence dissent against a foreign government.”
- (Boston Review) False Messiahs, by Barnett R. Rubin
In the wake of these waves of revolution and reaction, Jewish youth became increasingly radicalized. “To them,” writes historian Jonathan Frankel, “the revolution meant a struggle not only for social equality and political freedom, but also for national, for Jewish, liberation.”
This is the tradition that was transmitted to me and many American Jews my age about the origins of Zionism through education, folk memory, and artifacts like the photograph above. For many who grew up in this tradition, it is inconceivable that this ideology of liberation and self-determination could have anything in common with colonialism, any more than Rose and her friend did. In this light, the founding and repeated military victories of the State of Israel have formed an emotionally compelling historical narrative, echoing the praise of God in the Passover Haggadah: “He took us from slavery to freedom, from sorrow to joy, and from mourning to festivity, from deep darkness to great light and from bondage to redemption.” The Holocaust becomes in retrospect the “birth pangs” of the messiah—the pains and tribulations that the Jewish people will suffer before the ingathering of the exiles and their return to the Land of Israel, as foretold by the prophet Jeremiah: “it is a time of trouble unto Jacob, but out of it shall he be saved.”
This drama of Jewish history, however, was and remains embedded in world history, even if news of the latter was sometimes slow to reach Kamenetz-Podolsk. Zionists ultimately succeeded in transposing their efforts at self-liberation from Jewish into world history as no Jewish activists had done since the early Christians. But in the process, Zionism became something fundamentally different from the visions of Kamenetz-Podolsk.
[...] For Europeans, “colonialism” was not a derogatory term but the basis of world order, under which the “civilized” nations of Europe ruled the rest of the world without a thought that non-white peoples had rights or political agency. Herzl wrote that Zionism would establish a Jewish state, “secured by public law,” which at that time meant the international colonialist order.
[...] The same year that the Zionist Socialist Workers’ Party was founded—1905, about a year before the picture of Rose and her friend was taken—Naguib Azoury, a Lebanese Christian who had been deputy governor of Ottoman Jerusalem, published his manifesto of Arab nationalism, Le réveil de la nation arabe. Azoury opened his book with an eloquent warning to Arabs about the danger of Zionism, which he defined as an attempt by the Jews not to free themselves from anti-Semitism but to re-establish the ancient Kingdom of Israel on a grand scale, just as the Arab nation was trying to free itself of Ottoman domination in the same territory. “The fate of the entire world,” Azoury wrote, “will depend on the final result of this struggle between these two peoples.”
[...] in November 1917, Zionist diplomacy led by Dr. Chaim Weizmann had persuaded the British cabinet to issue the Balfour Declaration, which stated that the government “view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people.” From the Jewish point of view, this amounted to the fulfillment of prophecy and hopes. For the British such a homeland would secure British colonial rule in Palestine and Syria after the defeat of the Ottomans, protect the Suez Canal (essential to connecting Britain to its Asian colonies), gain the support of the Jewish population caught between anti-Semitic Russia (Britain’s ally) and the Central Powers, and realize aspirations of Christian Zionism.
The abolition of a major Islamic institution was thus closely linked to the adoption of Zionism as an official doctrine of the British empire, and both resulted from the British policy of defeating and dismembering the largest and most powerful Muslim state.
This was the moment that Zionism became a partner of British colonialism, even as the partnership inevitably frayed. Neither the British nor the Zionist movement considered the views of the people who lived in Palestine, 96 percent of them Arab. By Herzl’s own account in his diary, he did not speak to a single Arab during his 1898 visit to Palestine.
[...] Why did Zionism and many Jews accept this bargain? As Europeans, even if oppressed ones, they largely shared the virtually unchallenged assumptions of European colonial thinking. Circumstances also provided them with little choice. Given the opportunity, many—perhaps most—of the Jewish refugees from Hitler would have gone to the United States rather than Palestine. But by the 1930s, the tightening grip of anti-Semitism on the Western world convinced even erstwhile Jewish opponents of Zionism that they had no choice. Zionism’s claim that Jews could never be safe among other nations was proving true, not only in Nazi Germany but also in the “liberal” west.
[...] As colonial subjects, the Palestinian Arabs, unlike the Americans or British, had no sovereign power to regulate immigration into their territory. The combination of the Nazi regime, the exclusionary consensus expressed at the Evian conference, and the British mandate on Palestine together imposed a disproportionate burden of accepting Jewish refugees on the Palestinians, whose tiny country had nothing to do with the origin of the crisis and was deprived of any means of self-government.
[...] When the Peel Commission appointed by the British to recommend a solution endorsed a partition of the country in October 1937, it triggered an armed uprising.
Zionist historiography presents this as the first case of the Palestinians’ “never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.” It figures on the list of occasions that the Palestinians rejected “compromise” in favor of conflict. But from the Palestinian point of view, a colonial empire had arbitrarily decided to confiscate part of their national territory after making at most token efforts to consult them. It was not a “compromise”—a mutually agreed outcome of negotiations—but an imperial diktat that showed neither respect for the Palestinians’ right to self-determination nor any willingness to share the burden of welcoming refugees from Nazism.
[...] The reality of a colonial enterprise, bloody conflict, and decades of living at close quarters with a hostile population had its own logic, independent of Herzl’s utopian visions or any doctrines or analyses published in Der Nayer Veg. When the British left Palestine and withdrew their troops, the Nakba—or first Nakba, as some are now calling it after Israel’s assault on Gaza following October 7—was as inevitable as the massacres that accompanied the partition of India. There was no mechanism to implement the partition decreed by the British and enacted by the United Nations. Communal battles erupted between Arabs and Jews, but only the Yishuv had an effective military organization and coherent leadership.
Palestine was partitioned not according to the UN plan but according to the balance of power among the Haganah, Jordan’s Arab Legion, and the Egyptian army. The Yishuv claimed to accept partition, which granted it a sovereign territory—“secured by public law,” in Herzl’s words—for the first time, while expelling most of the Arab population from areas it controlled. It also expanded its territory from the areas allocated to the Jewish state in the partition plan to include areas allocated to the Arabs, including, among others, West Jerusalem and the densely populated corridor between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Both West Jerusalem and the corridor were ethnically cleansed.
That does not mean that a settlement requires the return of all 1948 refugees and their descendants to “Israel,” however that state may be defined by a settlement. The implementation of recognized rights is a legitimate subject for political negotiation. Not all refugees would choose to return; under a two-state solution, many might return to a Palestinian state rather than to Israel, and others would be entitled to compensation.
As for whether the State of Israel is a product of colonialism, it certainly is, unless the British Empire had nothing to do with colonialism. Without the Allied dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, the British Mandate imposed by the League of Nations, and the official status that the mandate granted to the Zionist Organization in Palestine, Israel could not have come into existence. The League of Nations Covenant wrote colonialism and racism into international law when it defined mandates as an institution through which “advanced nations” would be entrusted with the “tutelage” of “peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world.”
But the State of Israel is not the product only of colonialism. Without Jewish persecution in Europe, the intellectual and political effort that this formerly defenseless people made to place itself permanently on the map of the world, and the long Jewish historical and religious attachment to the land, there would also have been no Israel. It is also the case that without the violent expulsion of Jewish populations from the Arab world in reprisal for the founding of the state and the violence of the Nakba, the Israel of today would not exist.
Are Jews “indigenous” or settler colonialists in Palestine? They are both. The Jewish people originated in this land, and after two thousand years of exile, they developed an ideology and a political rather than purely religious movement of “return.” But their historical memory was not shared by the land’s inhabitants. The historical memory of the Jewish people did not create the right or capacity to confiscate or occupy a single dunam of land against the will of its possessors. The historical memory of one people, however tenacious, creates no right to rule over another.
That does not mean that a settlement requires the return of all 1948 refugees and their descendants to “Israel,” however that state may be defined by a settlement. The implementation of recognized rights is a legitimate subject for political negotiation. Not all refugees would choose to return; under a two-state solution, many might return to a Palestinian state rather than to Israel, and others would be entitled to compensation.
[...] Israeli Jews are settler colonialists with a historical memory of indigenous origin. This includes the Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab and other Muslim countries. They were indigenous to the region but not to Palestine, except in their own historical memory. That historical memory distinguishes Israel from other settler colonial states. So does the fact that the nation founded through settler colonialism has no “mother country” to which its members might return, as the French did from Algeria.
[...] The question “does Israel have the right to exist?” could have been meaningfully debated before the state existed, but now the only answer is, “Israel exists.” As a member of the United Nations, it has the right to continue to exist and to exercise the right to self-defense against other states. According to the UN charter, it also has the right to defend its territorial integrity, but implementation of that right requires defining the borders of the State of Israel. This depends on a peace settlement recognizing Palestinian national rights. Only such a settlement can establish Israel’s security as a state.
Genesis is not destiny. Documenting the historical fact that Israel came into existence in part through Zionism’s collaboration with colonialism does not mean that the only solution is a “decolonization” that would destroy the state and expel its inhabitants. What is objectionable about colonialism is not the immigration or settlement of a population of a different ethnic or national origin, or of people that are in some sense non-indigenous, but the domination of one group over another.
The current war in Gaza exemplifies some of the worst that colonialism has to offer, including both Israel’s indiscriminate massacre of civilian populations, justified as self-defense, and Hamas’s indiscriminate massacre of civilians, justified as resistance. The indiscriminate use of force has been matched by the deployment of falsified history and distorted concepts in defense of the violence—falsehoods and distortions that perpetuate the conflict. Israel is a product, in part, of colonialism, but colonialism is a contingent historical reality. The motives that make some people colonialist and others anticolonialist are not always so different. People are victims or perpetrators in the present because of their relationships with other people in the present, not because of whatever history they may have as victims or perpetrators under other circumstances. “Victim” is no one’s permanent identity, but a role in relation to others—a role that can and must be transformed.
[...] Israel continues to lurch headlong into an offensive that leading scholars of the Holocaust have warned appears to be on the path to genocide. The transformation of victim into perpetrator does not inspire hope or give suffering meaning. Nor does comparing current events to the Holocaust amount to equating the two. As Masha Gessen has argued, it is impossible to learn lessons from an event if all comparisons to it are forbidden.
- (Newsweek) Joe Biden Campaign Volunteers Are Quitting in 'Droves’
"It is not enough to merely be the alternative to Donald Trump," the campaigners continued. "The campaign has to shift the feeling in the pits of voters' stomachs, the same feeling that weighs on us every day as we fight for your reelection. The only way to do that is to call for a ceasefire."
"You have said numerous times that silence in the face of human rights violations is complicity," the letter added "We agree, which is why we are speaking out now. Every minute that passes without a ceasefire is another life that is lost—a life that could have been saved with political action from you.”
- (Juan Cole, piece by Yakov M. Rabin) How Long can Israel Defy the World?
Support for Israel, tending to increase with income, has become a class issue. It serves as another reminder of the growing estrangement between the rulers and the ruled, the proverbial One Per Cent and the rest. It remains to be seen if popular frustration with the hypocrisy of governments in their support for the war on Gaza may one day result in political change that would begin to dent Israel’s impunity.
Israel is a state without borders. Geographically, it has expanded with military conquest or colonization. The Zionist movement and successive Israeli governments have taken great pains never to define the borders they envisage for their state. Israeli secret services and the army pay no heed to borders, striking targets in its neighboring countries at will. This borderless character is also embodied in Israel’s claim that it belongs to the world’s Jews rather than to its citizens. This leads to the overt transformation of Jewish organizations around the world into Israeli agents. This is particularly the case in the United States. Israeli agents, such AIPAC, ensure Israel’s interests in elections on all levels, from school boards to the White House. Israel has even played the legislative against the executive branch in Washington. Yet this unabashed political interference attracts a lot less criticism in mainstream media that the alleged meddling of China or Russia. Israel also intervenes in the political process of other countries.
[...] Zionism vigorously rejects this “exilic” tradition, which it deems “consolation of the weak”. Generations of Israelis have been brought up on the values of martial courage, proud of serving in the military. Zionists regularly refer to their state as a continuation of biblical history. The idea of the Greater Israel is rooted in the literal reading of the Pentateuch. Zionism demands total commitment and brooks little opposition or criticism. The passion of the Zionist commitment has led to assassination of opponents, pitched fathers against sons, splitting Jewish families and communities. The historian Eli Barnavi, former Israeli ambassador in Paris, warns that “the dream of a ‘Third Kingdom of Israel’ could only lead to totalitarianism”. Indeed, many Jewish community leaders, undisturbed by the specter of “dual loyalty”, insist that allegiance to the state of Israel must prevail over all others, including allegiance toward their own country.
[...] Generationally, Israel appears an exception among the wealthy countries. With every generation Israelis become more combative and anti-Arab. While in other countries young Jews are usually less conservative than their parents and embrace ideas of social and political justice, young Israeli Jews defy this trend. Israeli education inculcates martial values and the belief that, had the state of Israel existed before World War II, the Nazi genocide would never have taken place. What sustains the fragile unity of the non-Arab majority is fear: a siege mentality that most frequently takes the self-image of a virtuous victim determined to prevent a repetition of the Nazi genocide. The memory of that European tragedy has become a tool of mobilizing Jews to the Zionist cause. Its political utility is still far from exhausted.
Use of the genocide to foster Israeli patriotism has been unflagging since the early 1960s. After an air show in Poland in 2008, three Israeli F-15 fighter jets bearing the Star of David and piloted by descendants of genocide survivors overflew the former Nazi extermination camp while two hundred Israeli soldiers observed the flyover from the Birkenau death camp adjacent to Auschwitz. The remarks of one of the Israeli pilots stressed confidence in the armed forces: “This is triumph for us. Sixty years ago, we had nothing. No country, no army, nothing.”
State schools promote the model of a fighter against “the Arabs” (the word “Palestinian” is usually avoided), glorifies military service turning it into an aspiration and a rite of passage to adulthood. No wonder that Hamas and, by extension, all the Gazans, are often referred to as Nazis. Dozens of Israeli officials and public figures have openly incited genocide of Palestinians: dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, flattening it into a parking lot, etc. Israeli political scientists have pointed out that civic religion provides no answers to questions of ultimate meaning, while at the same time it obliges its practitioners to accept the ultimate sacrifice. Civic space in Israel has become associated above all with “death for the fatherland.”
[...] Critical voices within and particularly outside Israel call on the Israelis to recognize that “the Zionist experiment was a tragic error. The sooner it is put to rest, the better it will be for all mankind.” In practice this would mean ensuring equality for all the inhabitants between the Jordan and the Mediterranean and a transformation of the existing ethnocracy into a state of all its citizens. However, Israeli society is conditioned to see in such calls an existential threat and a rejection of “Israel’s right to exist”.
The settler colonial logic radicalizes society in the direction of ethnic cleansing and even genocide. No Israeli government would be capable of evacuating hundreds of thousands of settlers to free space for a separate Palestinian state; the chances of giving up Zionist supremacy in the entire land are even lower. Only strong-armed international pressure may make Israel consider such a reform.
- (Haaretz opinion; Gideon Levy) No Israeli Soldiers Have Stood Up and Refused to Participate in This Evil War
The absence of insubordination is even clearer in view of what happened here last year prior to October 7. Disobedience became a more legitimate and common weapon than ever before; thousands of pilots and reservists threatened to use it.
In July the Brothers in Arms movement announced that about 10,000 reserve soldiers from 40 units wouldn't volunteer for reserve duty if the regime coup passed. They joined the 180 pilots and navigators who stated already in March that they wouldn't report to training drills, along with 300 military doctors and 650 reserve soldiers from special ops and cyber. With so many people threatening disobedience, its complete absence now is especially thunderous.
The conclusion is that many of the career and reserve soldiers are convinced the regime coup was a just and proper cause for insubordination, in contrast to the bloodshed and destruction in Gaza. The army is trashing an entire region along with its residents, and that doesn't bother our forces' consciences. The reasonableness clause bothered some of them more. Where are those 10,000 soldiers who threatened disobedience because of Benjamin Netanyahu and Yariv Levin now? Where are the 180 pilots?
They're busy bombing Gaza, flattening it, destroying it and killing its residents indiscriminately, including its thousands of children. How did it happen that bombing Salah Shehadeh's house, which killed 14 residents, 11 of them children, led to the "pilots' letter," in which 27 pilots stated they would refuse to serve on attack missions – and now, not even a postcard from a single pilot? What happened to our pilots since 2003, and what happened to the soldiers?
The answer is seemingly clear. Israel says that after the October 7 horror it's allowed to do anything, and anything it does is worthy, moral and legal. Insubordination during war is also a much more drastic step than insubordination in training, and indeed it borders on treason. It could hurt the brothers in combat. But the total absence of disobedience after some 90 days of evil warfare is not something to be happy about. It is not good. Maybe in a few years, some people will regret it. Maybe some will be ashamed of it.
- and finally, an English translation of a Hebrew translation in Haaretz of an Arabic post on facebook by Ahmed Mustafa in Khan Younis, shared on fedi:
I watch your revelry, you rabble, in the fresh spilling of our blood. I see how Al Jazeera's viewership spikes into the hundreds of thousands when armed groups post their military pronouncements produced like movies. They satiate the cravings of all the gleeful human trash who do not taste destruction, all the defective human garbage wanting the war to continue, all those who do not want the groups to forgo anything as long as they keep broadcasting their operations and exporting their national orgasm.
In their lexicon do not exist the values of "admitting failure" or the human measure of saving Palestinian lives from the appetite of the Israeli war machine. The masses, along with the armed groups, are preparing to declare victory over Israel even if it comes with the last breath of the last child living on Palestinian soil.
I address all the revelers outside our country’s borders: Shut your mouths, all of you. Al Jazeera does not show you what I see here in #Gaza - hunger, thirst, cold, disease, degradation, protection money, security anarchy, an inhuman reality. You do not hear the voices of the displaced, raising their hands to the heavens and wailing to God over Israel's deeds and the catastrophe brought upon them by the groups. Al Jazeera does not point its cameras at the people cutting down cemetery trees to cook food for their children. It does not broadcast to you the practice of four young women surrounding their friend so she can relieve herself in the open air without water or toilet paper.
No #AlJazeera reporter tells you about the blood staining the clothes of women who could not obtain sanitary products for their monthly period. Al Jazeera does not host even one person crying out over donated tents being sold to destitute displaced people at astronomical prices. It does not show the angry and homeless sleeping on the wet sidewalks with no supplies and no shelter. It does not cover the looting of humanitarian relief convoys, and much more.
The “official” media mechanisms need to present Gaza as a power; they want to boast about their ally and gain broadcasting rights from them. Israel picks up on this discourse and uses it as propagandistic justification for the continued crushing of the Strip. There is no benefit in critical coverage of the catastrophe or humanitarian issues as long as there are those, like #Qatar for example, who use our blood to boost their influence in the region.
What benefit will the “official” media gain from drawing viewers’ attention to the immense hardships of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, including elderly parents suffering from high blood pressure and unable to find suitable medications or substitutes? What interest does this media have in covering the abject failure of the armed groups’ government, which it supports, a government that after the outbreak of war disappeared from the scene and completely shirked responsibility? What will the media gain if we citizens stand before its cameras and demand the groups provide our innocent children refuge in their tunnels, like the shelter given to the young Israeli woman recently released?
The fact that none of you are interested in the fate of the ordinary Gazan puts you on the side of the occupation: just like it, you unequivocally adopt the image of us as subhuman creatures that can bear any suffering as long as we enjoy a bit of straw and fodder, indifferent to our living conditions and the circumstances of our deaths. The bodies tossed in Gaza’s streets and ruins without proper burial do not shake your hearts. After satisfying what you call “heroism,” you are ready and willing for broadcasts of even harsher atrocities. All at the expense of our blood; only our blood, you rabble, not anyone else’s.
Stop this desecration immediately, at any cost. Open the #Rafah land crossing to Palestinian civilian movement so that those who remain here in the destruction are only those willing to trade their bodies for “steadfastness.” That way we can part from the project of our forced expulsion. Until then, shut your mouths, all of you; you revelers chanting worthless slogans of heroism over our spilled blood in vain. Shut your mouths, all of you; you who trade in us and profit off our souls from the luxury hotels in #Doha, the presidential courts in Iran, the French Riviera of Turkey, the conference halls in Algeria, the alleys of Amman and the neighborhoods of Beirut.
You have made our blood into a cynical amusement, which the occupation forces delight in shedding and feebleminded dance upon. Stop immediately.
posted by cendawanita at 1:55 AM on January 9 [20 favorites]
Yasha Levine on the history of kibbutzes and the colonization of Palestine - Human Shields:
Like a lot of accusations coming out of Israel much of this cynical human shields talk is projection — and this comment from Smotrich is a glimpse into that. He’s basically saying that Israel needs to put Israeli civilians into Gaza for effective military control, setting up a human shields situation where any attack on Israelis by despondent and dispossessed Palestinians in a cleansed and newly reoccupied Gaza would be held up as a symbol of Palestinian barbarity. “Look at these people! They’re targeting innocent Jews women and children! We told you they’re monsters! Ancient hatred of Jews runs in their blood!”posted by kmt at 3:00 AM on January 9 [11 favorites]
...
Nir Oz was not the only kibbutz set up as a human shield. Just about every other neighboring settlement near the Gaza border in the Negev Desert started life as a Nahal military outpost. And it wasn’t just in the Negev, either. Nahal spinoff kibbutzes were set up in other strategic border areas — the West Bank and Lebanon.9
Some of these settlements were set up more than 70 years ago. But their human shield legacy lives on decades later. On October 7, the kibbutzes on the border with Gaza were hit first because they were supposed to get hit first. This was by design.
when this is all over, and the psychological mechanisms that sustained Zionism inside Israel are revealed, the world is going to be in genuine awe of Israel’s brainwashing prowess.
I believe I have been fairly well across the scope and scale of Israel's brainwashing prowess for some decades at this point, and the main emotions resulting from that are nothing like awe. Some combination of grieving, disgust and resignation gets closer.
For me it started when a good friend of mine, a keen low-budget world traveller, came back with stories of what he'd personally seen IDF bulldozers doing to what used to be Palestinian homes; this would have been in the late Eighties, if I recall correctly.
He had had no prior connection with the Middle East, and the complete incompatibility of that non-partisan, reliable, first-hand account (complete with photos) with everything I'd ever been led to believe about Plucky Little Israel was a huge shock.
It's not a shock any more. It's a dull, nagging ache that just never lets up. So no, there's no room left in here for anything like awe. It's mostly nausea. Pretty much indistinguishable from what I experience when contemplating Hitler's reign of terror, or Stalin's, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's, or TFG's upcoming shitshow.
"You're either with us or you're with the terrorists" has no more legitimacy when the idiot liar Hotovely says it than when the idiot liar W did.
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 AM on January 9 [12 favorites]
I believe I have been fairly well across the scope and scale of Israel's brainwashing prowess for some decades at this point, and the main emotions resulting from that are nothing like awe. Some combination of grieving, disgust and resignation gets closer.
For me it started when a good friend of mine, a keen low-budget world traveller, came back with stories of what he'd personally seen IDF bulldozers doing to what used to be Palestinian homes; this would have been in the late Eighties, if I recall correctly.
He had had no prior connection with the Middle East, and the complete incompatibility of that non-partisan, reliable, first-hand account (complete with photos) with everything I'd ever been led to believe about Plucky Little Israel was a huge shock.
It's not a shock any more. It's a dull, nagging ache that just never lets up. So no, there's no room left in here for anything like awe. It's mostly nausea. Pretty much indistinguishable from what I experience when contemplating Hitler's reign of terror, or Stalin's, or Mao's, or Pol Pot's, or TFG's upcoming shitshow.
"You're either with us or you're with the terrorists" has no more legitimacy when the idiot liar Hotovely says it than when the idiot liar W did.
posted by flabdablet at 3:01 AM on January 9 [12 favorites]
After the killings, the Israeli army briefed military reporters to write that the soldiers were unprepared to encounter hostages in combat zones. This is an astounding claim on the part of the military, considering that if one of the main goals of the war — as repeatedly stated — is the return of the hostages, and it is known that there are 129 hostages in Gaza scattered in ad hoc prisons throughout the Strip, then soldiers must surely have been prepared for a situation in which hostages might manage to escape.The ‘mistaken’ killing of three Israeli hostages was a tragedy long foretold, +972Mag
It is even more astonishing given the fact that this very situation was known to have already occurred: the former hostage Roni Krivoi revealed after his release in November that he had escaped from captivity and roamed free in Gaza for four days before being captured again.
…
In the military prosecutor’s offices, there are dozens of clear-cut murder cases, some at least as egregious as that of the hostages. Innocent children and youth are shot dead with no recourse; lies and forgeries proliferate on documents tracking weapon possession; and of course, the claim “I felt life-threatening danger” is a panacea for every purported “accident.” The case of the killing of 12-year-old Mohammed al-Alami in Beit Ummar in July 2021 has been sitting in the military prosecutor’s office for two years, but they refuse to make a decision on whether to proceed with it.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:18 PM on January 9 [9 favorites]
Democracy Now aggregated reporting on Israel & Palestine
I'm dropping in to bring this. I also posted in a recent Ask.
I've had to dip out of this fpp because many a time I have come across so many distractions, confusing viewpoints; I have left angry. It's like that saying: I'm saddened but I'm not surprised.
People are still arguing on this website whether or not a genocide is happening. See: first comment on the Ask about resources to read on the genocide.
I listened to NPR today as I'm loathe to do anymore ... and even finally (?) Palestinians and their complete liberation was an actual sentence uttered in earnest. Because 10/7/2023 ... if one as as much uttered this, you were "siding with terrorists."
posted by mxjudyliza at 1:15 AM on January 10 [10 favorites]
I'm dropping in to bring this. I also posted in a recent Ask.
I've had to dip out of this fpp because many a time I have come across so many distractions, confusing viewpoints; I have left angry. It's like that saying: I'm saddened but I'm not surprised.
People are still arguing on this website whether or not a genocide is happening. See: first comment on the Ask about resources to read on the genocide.
I listened to NPR today as I'm loathe to do anymore ... and even finally (?) Palestinians and their complete liberation was an actual sentence uttered in earnest. Because 10/7/2023 ... if one as as much uttered this, you were "siding with terrorists."
posted by mxjudyliza at 1:15 AM on January 10 [10 favorites]
The far right infiltration of Israel’s media is blinding the public to the truth about Gaza.
Proponents of the settler movement, backed by Netanyahu, are ruling the airwaves and skewing coverage of the conflict.
posted by adamvasco at 1:58 AM on January 10 [4 favorites]
Proponents of the settler movement, backed by Netanyahu, are ruling the airwaves and skewing coverage of the conflict.
posted by adamvasco at 1:58 AM on January 10 [4 favorites]
Mondoweiss: Don’t believe Haaretz and the NYT. Israeli society fully supports the Gaza genocide
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:07 AM on January 10 [3 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:07 AM on January 10 [3 favorites]
I would be astonished if that were actually true; as far as I'm aware, there has never been a society in the entire history of humanity that has fully supported anything.
There would be no need for so many forms of dissent suppression if there wasn't any.
I have no doubt that there is widespread support for the genocide, but "fully" has to be overstating it, surely.
posted by flabdablet at 3:55 AM on January 10 [4 favorites]
There would be no need for so many forms of dissent suppression if there wasn't any.
I have no doubt that there is widespread support for the genocide, but "fully" has to be overstating it, surely.
posted by flabdablet at 3:55 AM on January 10 [4 favorites]
the essay that kmt posted above is extremely good, so i'm reposting it for emphasis.
it says:
"On the propaganda, or discourse front, Israel’s main success has been this ability to keep the discussion always about nebulous things as supposed, perceived or suspected character and beliefs, instead of concrete things, say well documented actions."
this rings very true. in every conversation IME, the apologist for Israeli policies/crimes adopts an infinitely agile position that takes the form of some sort of shapeshifting cloud of high-energy gas, never staying on a specific point long enough to allow it to be clarified, only making concrete claims about belief or ideology or culture and never acknowledging the material concerns without which there'd be no such abstractions as justice or dignity or rights anyway, and what the actual material effects of insert-your-favourite-historical-happening were. and for some of these people, any seemingly unrelated or tenuously related matter cannot be evaluated, and an opinion produced, until it's been run past their internal Is This Good For Israel Internal Consistency Checker: "i must not expose myself to the risk of being accused of hypocrisy in some hypothetical future discussion of israel with this interlocutor, so i must therefore take the racist position in this unrelated matter now."
meanwhile, in actual israel, many of those in actual power are seemingly confident enough that the propaganda war is long won that they can simply say the quiet part as loudly as they like, as they've done more or less from the get-go with weirdly little pushback.
but the apologists aren't content with the rest of us accepting that the Israeli government gets its bloody maximalist way; they aren't satisfied until they see that we don't merely accept it but accept it with sympathy and understanding.
if your circumstances mean that you have people like this in your life, and they really want to talk to you about Palestine right now, and you know there is no point, i can personally recommend setting boundaries about your willingness to engage, along with a clear articulation that the propaganda war is not winnable in your case. don't know who needs to hear it, but it's perfectly fine to insist on having the last word and refusing to discuss further, and you don't owe anyone a debate.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:19 AM on January 10 [17 favorites]
it says:
"On the propaganda, or discourse front, Israel’s main success has been this ability to keep the discussion always about nebulous things as supposed, perceived or suspected character and beliefs, instead of concrete things, say well documented actions."
this rings very true. in every conversation IME, the apologist for Israeli policies/crimes adopts an infinitely agile position that takes the form of some sort of shapeshifting cloud of high-energy gas, never staying on a specific point long enough to allow it to be clarified, only making concrete claims about belief or ideology or culture and never acknowledging the material concerns without which there'd be no such abstractions as justice or dignity or rights anyway, and what the actual material effects of insert-your-favourite-historical-happening were. and for some of these people, any seemingly unrelated or tenuously related matter cannot be evaluated, and an opinion produced, until it's been run past their internal Is This Good For Israel Internal Consistency Checker: "i must not expose myself to the risk of being accused of hypocrisy in some hypothetical future discussion of israel with this interlocutor, so i must therefore take the racist position in this unrelated matter now."
meanwhile, in actual israel, many of those in actual power are seemingly confident enough that the propaganda war is long won that they can simply say the quiet part as loudly as they like, as they've done more or less from the get-go with weirdly little pushback.
but the apologists aren't content with the rest of us accepting that the Israeli government gets its bloody maximalist way; they aren't satisfied until they see that we don't merely accept it but accept it with sympathy and understanding.
if your circumstances mean that you have people like this in your life, and they really want to talk to you about Palestine right now, and you know there is no point, i can personally recommend setting boundaries about your willingness to engage, along with a clear articulation that the propaganda war is not winnable in your case. don't know who needs to hear it, but it's perfectly fine to insist on having the last word and refusing to discuss further, and you don't owe anyone a debate.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:19 AM on January 10 [17 favorites]
they aren't satisfied until they see that we don't merely accept it but accept it with sympathy and understanding.
This is a posture immediately and nauseatingly familiar to anybody who has watched a domestic abuser operate.
posted by flabdablet at 6:33 AM on January 10 [8 favorites]
This is a posture immediately and nauseatingly familiar to anybody who has watched a domestic abuser operate.
posted by flabdablet at 6:33 AM on January 10 [8 favorites]
As has been long suspected:
CNN Admits All Gaza Coverage Is Run Past Team Under Israeli Military Censor.
posted by adamvasco at 11:42 AM on January 10 [9 favorites]
CNN Admits All Gaza Coverage Is Run Past Team Under Israeli Military Censor.
posted by adamvasco at 11:42 AM on January 10 [9 favorites]
"fully" has to be overstating it
At the risk of harping on this point, it seems to me that as a person who lives on the other side of the planet from those Israelis who are dissenters to this genocide it is my duty to say that I see you, I hear you, I have nothing but admiration for the work you do every day to win over the hearts and minds of the people you interact with face to face, and history will judge your stance to have been the correct one - despite the multinational industrial-strength gaslighting apparatus devoted to persuading all of us otherwise, and despite the complicity of my own Government and that of its allies in creating and perpetuating the ongoing horror that you have been given no option but to live in and with.
You are the true heroes of Israel and defenders of Judaism.
posted by flabdablet at 1:16 PM on January 10 [6 favorites]
At the risk of harping on this point, it seems to me that as a person who lives on the other side of the planet from those Israelis who are dissenters to this genocide it is my duty to say that I see you, I hear you, I have nothing but admiration for the work you do every day to win over the hearts and minds of the people you interact with face to face, and history will judge your stance to have been the correct one - despite the multinational industrial-strength gaslighting apparatus devoted to persuading all of us otherwise, and despite the complicity of my own Government and that of its allies in creating and perpetuating the ongoing horror that you have been given no option but to live in and with.
You are the true heroes of Israel and defenders of Judaism.
posted by flabdablet at 1:16 PM on January 10 [6 favorites]
Metafilter: they aren't satisfied until they see that we don't merely accept it but accept it with sympathy and understanding
posted by Jarcat at 4:46 PM on January 10 [1 favorite]
posted by Jarcat at 4:46 PM on January 10 [1 favorite]
I've been collecting links and commentaries in the last week on the South Africa case, but in a very ADHD way so it's taking time for me to go thru and review and compile them for here. Just a point of query: is there no coverage in the US/the West outside the denials that the case has no merit? But it's 11 January already here, and these videos/podcasts might do for now while I go thru the text articles/tweets:
(Bad Empanada; an Aussie lefty youtuber, but pretty decent collation of sources): Gaze: A Clear Case of Genocide - Detailed Legal Analysis.
(Assymetrical Haircuts - a podcast on international law; these had legit legal and academic practitioners on this area specifically): ICJ hears genocide case against Israel - while drier, this had a decent rundown on what's at stake, what SA is arguing, what provisional measures SA is requesting from ICJ, and other cases as examples, most recently the Russian invasion of Ukraine*.
Old longread about post-apartheid South Africa, that came up when Palestinian Ghada Sasa was asking why is it that Israelis and their supporters are taking demands for Palestinian self-determination as an existential threat, someone shared in the replies this Atlantic piece: When Racial Progress Comes for White Liberals, where the TL;DR is that the white population ESPECIALLY the liberals couldn't really find ways to pyschologically come to grips with their past BECAUSE the black population were largely disinterested in pursuing violent retribution and was more interested in working in peace to improve their lives. I thought this was interesting, and fundamentally (a thought sparked by that recent Ask that mentioned Ezra Klein a couple of times), a non-western perspective that even those sympathetic to the Palestinians just seem to not have in their mental map to incorporate in their analysis and opinions.
*spare a thought to the Ukrainians, there's clearly a reduced priority in US funding and European support isn't filling the gaps. Russia might just 'win' this in a very typical Russian way.
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on January 10 [8 favorites]
(Bad Empanada; an Aussie lefty youtuber, but pretty decent collation of sources): Gaze: A Clear Case of Genocide - Detailed Legal Analysis.
(Assymetrical Haircuts - a podcast on international law; these had legit legal and academic practitioners on this area specifically): ICJ hears genocide case against Israel - while drier, this had a decent rundown on what's at stake, what SA is arguing, what provisional measures SA is requesting from ICJ, and other cases as examples, most recently the Russian invasion of Ukraine*.
Old longread about post-apartheid South Africa, that came up when Palestinian Ghada Sasa was asking why is it that Israelis and their supporters are taking demands for Palestinian self-determination as an existential threat, someone shared in the replies this Atlantic piece: When Racial Progress Comes for White Liberals, where the TL;DR is that the white population ESPECIALLY the liberals couldn't really find ways to pyschologically come to grips with their past BECAUSE the black population were largely disinterested in pursuing violent retribution and was more interested in working in peace to improve their lives. I thought this was interesting, and fundamentally (a thought sparked by that recent Ask that mentioned Ezra Klein a couple of times), a non-western perspective that even those sympathetic to the Palestinians just seem to not have in their mental map to incorporate in their analysis and opinions.
*spare a thought to the Ukrainians, there's clearly a reduced priority in US funding and European support isn't filling the gaps. Russia might just 'win' this in a very typical Russian way.
posted by cendawanita at 6:30 PM on January 10 [8 favorites]
just to quote from the Atlantic piece, to foreground something I will say checks out based on other parts of my life:
But as time wore on, even wealthy white South Africans began to radiate a degree of fear and frustration that did not match any simple economic analysis of their situation. A startling number of formerly anti-apartheid white people began to voice bitter criticisms of post-apartheid society. An Afrikaner poet who did prison time under apartheid for aiding the Black-liberation cause wrote an essay denouncing the new Black-led country as “a sewer of betrayed expectations and thievery, fear and unbridled greed.”
What accounted for this disillusionment? Many white South Africans told me that Black forgiveness felt like a slap on the face. By not acting toward you as you acted toward us, we’re showing you up, white South Africans seemed to hear. You’ll owe us a debt of gratitude forever.
White people rarely articulated these feelings publicly. But in private, with friends and acquaintances, I encountered them over and over. One white friend and former anti-apartheid activist (who didn’t want to be identified in order to talk freely) told me that after the Truth and Reconciliation Commission publicized much of what Black South Africans had faced under apartheid, she felt humiliated to recall what she and her friends had once considered resistance: gestures like having a warm exchange with a Black maid or skipping class to join an anti-apartheid march.
She said that sense of embarrassment made her shy away from politics, as did the slow-dawning recognition that Black people—many of whom had worked in white people’s houses under apartheid—knew much more about the lives of white people than white people knew about Black lives. My friend had never even seen the inside of a Black person’s home.
Not infrequently, white South Africans who identified as progressive confessed to me that they wanted to withdraw from public life because they felt they couldn’t speak the truth about what they did see. Many felt that only Black people could point out certain realities—for example, that Black-majority rule hasn’t reduced economic inequality since apartheid or that half of Black people under 35 are unemployed. If a white person expressed too much pessimism, they could be considered demeaning. Too much optimism, and they could be accused of neglecting enduring racial inequalities. The window they had to exist in, intellectually, could appear so narrow as not to exist.
At a Johannesburg party I went to, two voluble white women who called themselves “socialists” started to debate with me about the U.S. As Africans, they wanted me to know that American greatness was a sham and American-style consumerism was a pox on Africa. The party’s lone Black guest—a young woman—crouched silently in front of the fireplace, pushing embers around with a poker.
Suddenly, she spoke. The two white women misunderstood America, she said, without rancor. She had gone to high school in California. And, yes, there was racism. But she found the country much less racist than South Africa, and exciting—a land of opportunity.
The party went silent. The white women’s lips were pressed into half-gracious, half-bitter twists. They had been shamed, and they wanted to argue. But their stated values—always to foreground historically marginalized voices—meant they had to take the Black guest’s word for it. Shortly afterward, they left.
I'm saying with as much seriousness and gentleness as I can: please anticipate this, and address it.
posted by cendawanita at 6:37 PM on January 10 [15 favorites]
But as time wore on, even wealthy white South Africans began to radiate a degree of fear and frustration that did not match any simple economic analysis of their situation. A startling number of formerly anti-apartheid white people began to voice bitter criticisms of post-apartheid society. An Afrikaner poet who did prison time under apartheid for aiding the Black-liberation cause wrote an essay denouncing the new Black-led country as “a sewer of betrayed expectations and thievery, fear and unbridled greed.”
What accounted for this disillusionment? Many white South Africans told me that Black forgiveness felt like a slap on the face. By not acting toward you as you acted toward us, we’re showing you up, white South Africans seemed to hear. You’ll owe us a debt of gratitude forever.
White people rarely articulated these feelings publicly. But in private, with friends and acquaintances, I encountered them over and over. One white friend and former anti-apartheid activist (who didn’t want to be identified in order to talk freely) told me that after the Truth and Reconciliation Commission publicized much of what Black South Africans had faced under apartheid, she felt humiliated to recall what she and her friends had once considered resistance: gestures like having a warm exchange with a Black maid or skipping class to join an anti-apartheid march.
She said that sense of embarrassment made her shy away from politics, as did the slow-dawning recognition that Black people—many of whom had worked in white people’s houses under apartheid—knew much more about the lives of white people than white people knew about Black lives. My friend had never even seen the inside of a Black person’s home.
Not infrequently, white South Africans who identified as progressive confessed to me that they wanted to withdraw from public life because they felt they couldn’t speak the truth about what they did see. Many felt that only Black people could point out certain realities—for example, that Black-majority rule hasn’t reduced economic inequality since apartheid or that half of Black people under 35 are unemployed. If a white person expressed too much pessimism, they could be considered demeaning. Too much optimism, and they could be accused of neglecting enduring racial inequalities. The window they had to exist in, intellectually, could appear so narrow as not to exist.
At a Johannesburg party I went to, two voluble white women who called themselves “socialists” started to debate with me about the U.S. As Africans, they wanted me to know that American greatness was a sham and American-style consumerism was a pox on Africa. The party’s lone Black guest—a young woman—crouched silently in front of the fireplace, pushing embers around with a poker.
Suddenly, she spoke. The two white women misunderstood America, she said, without rancor. She had gone to high school in California. And, yes, there was racism. But she found the country much less racist than South Africa, and exciting—a land of opportunity.
The party went silent. The white women’s lips were pressed into half-gracious, half-bitter twists. They had been shamed, and they wanted to argue. But their stated values—always to foreground historically marginalized voices—meant they had to take the Black guest’s word for it. Shortly afterward, they left.
I'm saying with as much seriousness and gentleness as I can: please anticipate this, and address it.
posted by cendawanita at 6:37 PM on January 10 [15 favorites]
It's perhaps not news to anyone here, but this headline was so sad to read today: In grim milestone, 1% of Gaza Strip population killed since Israel-Hamas war began.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 PM on January 10
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 PM on January 10
the white population ESPECIALLY the liberals couldn't really find ways to psychologically come to grips with their past BECAUSE the black population were largely disinterested in pursuing violent retribution and was more interested in working in peace to improve their lives.
Before our own referendum to create an Aboriginal Voice to Parliament failed, I regularly found myself having conversations with otherwise apparently sane and sympathetic people who just could not let go of the idea that "reconciliation" would inevitably lead to white Australians being forcibly turfed out of our homes and sued into oblivion.
A struggle for domination as the fundamental purpose and condition of life is a worldview running very deep inside a lot of people raised in colonialist cultures, corrosive at every level from personal to geopolitical to ecological.
this headline was so sad to read today
and made so much sadder by understanding just how many people who think of themselves as righteous will have looked at that and thought "good start".
posted by flabdablet at 10:25 PM on January 10 [8 favorites]
Before our own referendum to create an Aboriginal Voice to Parliament failed, I regularly found myself having conversations with otherwise apparently sane and sympathetic people who just could not let go of the idea that "reconciliation" would inevitably lead to white Australians being forcibly turfed out of our homes and sued into oblivion.
A struggle for domination as the fundamental purpose and condition of life is a worldview running very deep inside a lot of people raised in colonialist cultures, corrosive at every level from personal to geopolitical to ecological.
this headline was so sad to read today
and made so much sadder by understanding just how many people who think of themselves as righteous will have looked at that and thought "good start".
posted by flabdablet at 10:25 PM on January 10 [8 favorites]
UN livefeed: THE HAGUE – The International Court of Justice (ICJ) holds public hearings in the case South Africa v. Israel - Oral argument of South Africa (YT livestream)
In the meantime: -
From last week (and this was in the initial reaction, as the SA filing came in literally in the last days of 2023):
(AP; as posted by a Canadian outlet) South Africa says Israel’s campaign in Gaza amounts to genocide. What can the UN do about it?
HOW DID ISRAEL REACT TO EARLIER COURT PROCEEDINGS?
Israel did not attend hearings in 2004 when the ICJ discussed an advisory opinion requested by the U.N. into the legality of Israel’s barrier wall. The court ruled in a non-binding opinion that the wall was “contrary to international law.” Israel sent a written statement to the court before the ruling saying it did not consider it to have jurisdiction and should not respond to the U.N. request for the advisory opinion.
Israel also has in the past refused to cooperate with an investigation after the 2008-9 Gaza war, a UN investigation into the 2014 Gaza war, and the ongoing Human Rights Council investigation into alleged abuses against Palestinians.
Israel is not a member of another Hague-based court, the International Criminal Court. Other countries that are not ICC members include major global powers the United States, China and Russia.
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
South Africa’s filing includes a request for the court to urgently issue legally binding interim orders for Israel to “immediately suspend its military operations in and against Gaza.”
Such orders, known as provisional measures, would remain while the case progresses. They’re legally binding but not always followed. In 2022, in a genocide case filed by Ukraine against Russia, the court ordered Moscow to immediately suspend its invasion, but the order was ignored.
Guardian: Israeli public figures accuse judiciary of ignoring incitement to genocide in Gaza
A group of prominent Israelis has accused the country’s judicial authorities of ignoring “extensive and blatant” incitement to genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza by influential public figures.
In a letter to the attorney general and state prosecutors, they demand action to stop the normalisation of language that breaks both Israeli and international law.
“For the first time that we can remember, the explicit calls to commit atrocious crimes, as stated, against millions of civilians have turned into a legitimate and regular part of Israeli discourse,” they write. “Today, calls of these types are an everyday matter in Israel.”
Signatories include one of Israel’s top scientists, the Royal Society member Prof David Harel, alongside other academics, former diplomats, former members of the Knesset, journalists and activists.
[...] Sfard said he was stunned by the speed with which incitement to genocide and other extreme speech had been normalised in Israel. “I never could have imagined that I would need to write such a letter,” he said. “The fact that this type of talk has completely left the far, unimportant fringes and came into the mainstream in such a massive way, for me it’s incomprehensible.
[...] The letter was sent before South Africa filed a case at the international court of justice accusing Israel of genocide and of failing to stop incitement to genocide. “We filed this letter last week, before South Africa lodged their complaint, and without knowing they were going to do that,” Sfard said.
The group Sfard represents does not accuse Israel of genocide in Gaza; their letter is about incitement to genocide inside Israel. However, the charges of incitement levelled by South Africa includes language cited in the letter and notes authorities’ failure to take judicial action in response.
It was the role of the attorney general to make clear that comments inciting genocide were unacceptable, amount to incitement and had become normalised, Sfard said. “We want to flag this and allow the authorities an opportunity to do something about it.”
South African Jews for a Free Palestine: SAJFP Welcomes SA Government’s Invocation of Genocide Convention against ‘Israel’
[...] Labelling the application to the ICJ in terms of the Genocide Convention “blood libel” is not only a complete misrepresentation of what blood libel is, it is a further instance of Jewish historical experience being weaponised in service of Israel’s settler colonial project.
This trope joins a significant deployment of dog whistle and explicit anti-Palestinian racism from both the Israeli government and Zionists globally and in South Africa in response to the submission. We refuse in the strongest terms the attempts to smear this process by Israel and its allies as well as by South African Zionist institutions and individuals such as the South African Jewish Board of Deputies, the South African Zionist Federation, and Chief Rabbi Warren Goldstein. Their words do nothing more than manufacture further violence and fail to honour the living and the dead.
One of the key principles that guides Jewish faith and morality is tzedeq, which means justice. It is this principle, among many others that guides us to unwaveringly dream and fight towards a world of justice and freedom in Palestine and globally. While we will not conflate law and justice, we commend this move as part of a repertoire of justice, guided by principles of solidarity, freedom, and tzedeq.
In this spirit, we reiterate our welcoming of this legal action and hope to see a ceasefire in the immediate term, alongside complete end to the genocide, and the dismantling of the apartheid settler colonial Zionist project of the ongoing Nakba in Palestine.
Just Security: The Promise and Risk of South Africa’s Case Against Israel
The application has set off a firestorm. The accusation of genocide is particularly gut-wrenching for many Israelis. After all, the Holocaust, in which six million Jews were killed, was the impetus for the very treaty that Israel is now accused of violating. Israeli government spokesman Eylon Levy furiously stated, “The State of Israel will appear before the International Court of Justice at The Hague to dispel South Africa’s absurd blood libel,” equating the application with antisemitic slander against Jews.
Here we take a step back to examine the legal claims made by South Africa in its application, the basis for South Africa’s claim for standing to bring the case, what to expect as the case unfolds, and the possible broader legal effects of the case, including for the United States and other allies of Israel. Whatever one thinks of the merits of South Africa’s claims, the case demonstrates that the new form of standing recognized by the Court—“erga omnes partes standing” (standing based on obligations “in relation to everyone,” or owed to all), which we have discussed at length in a forthcoming law review article—has the potential to revolutionize the enforcement of long under-enforced human rights treaties. But this new frontier brings risk to the Court as well.
[...] What to Expect Next
On Jan. 3, less than a week after South Africa submitted its application, the Court announced that it will hold public hearings on the request for provisional measures on Thursday and Friday of next week (January 11 and 12). The Court will then decide whether to impose provisional measures. That decision may take weeks or months. In The Gambia case, for example, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came roughly 2 months after The Gambia filed its application (but only about 1 month after the public hearings); in the case by Canada and the Netherlands against Syria, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came over 5 months after the application (but just over 1 month after public hearings). In the case between Ukraine and Russia, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came just over 1 month after Ukraine filed an application and about 2 weeks after the public hearings.
In its decision on provisional measures, the Court will determine whether it has prima facia jurisdiction, including whether South Africa has based its application on treaty rights and obligations that are “plausible,” and whether there is a sufficient link between the measures requested by South Africa and the rights whose protection is sought. It will also consider whether there is a risk of irreparable harm and a situation of urgency, two criteria likely to be easily met in these circumstances.
It is important to note that at this initial stage, according to the Court’s jurisprudence (The Gambia v. Myanmar, para. 56), it is not necessary for the Court to make a finding as to whether Israel’s conduct in Gaza amounts to genocide. The Court may choose to impose some, but not all, of South Africa’s requested provisional measures. In making its decision, it will consider whether the rights and obligations claimed by South Africa on the merits, and for which it is seeking resolution, are plausible. It will not have to definitively determine that it has jurisdiction to hear the merits, nor will it need to go beyond a showing of “plausible” allegations as to violations of obligations under the Convention. It is possible that the Court could allow the case to proceed but ultimately decide against South Africa on either jurisdiction or the merits of the case.
[...] Possible Ramifications of the Case
The case could have a number of ramifications. It has already brought more focus to claims that Israel’s military intervention is being conducted in violation of international law, and specifically claims involving the Genocide Convention.
South Africa’s application was not the first such assertion in a court of law. In mid-November, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) filed a lawsuit in U.S. district court making similar arguments. Its complaint argues that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in Gaza in violation of the Genocide Convention. The case, filed not against Israel but against U.S. officials, argues that the United States’ failure to exercise its influence over Israel to prevent genocide constitutes a failure to prevent genocide as well as complicity in genocide. Among other things, it seeks a declaration that U.S. officials have violated their duty under customary international law to prevent Israel from committing genocide and injunctive relief ordering them to take all measures within their power to prevent Israel’s commission of genocidal acts.
South Africa’s case does not bear directly on this domestic lawsuit, which remains a longshot to say the least, but it could be seen to lend credence to the U.S. lawsuit’s underlying claims. Even if the CCR’s suit itself fails, the claims raise a series of difficult questions for the U.S. government. As a party to the Genocide Convention, the United States has an obligation to take affirmative action to prevent genocide. If the ICJ finds a prima facie case that it has jurisdiction to hear the case, that could force lawyers within the U.S. government to consider the legality of, for example, ongoing financial and military assistance to Israel.
U.S. law known as the Leahy Law prohibits military assistance to foreign security forces where there is credible information implicating that unit in the commission of gross violations of human rights. As Brian Finucane has written, U.S. financial and military support for Israel implicates a host of other domestic legal prohibitions (see also this explanatory piece in Just Security). These concerns are not new to the ongoing conflict. In October, State Department official Josh Paul resigned from the bureau that oversees arms transfers to foreign nations, citing specifically his objection to the administration’s military assistance to Israel. The case in the ICJ may lend weight to these longstanding concerns, whether the Court sides with Israel on the claims of incitement to genocide or the prevention of genocidal acts.
U.S. law also makes genocide, as well as incitement to genocide, a criminal offense. The law applies not only to U.S. nationals and residents but also to those “present in the United States.” It is unlikely, but not impossible, that the ICJ case, in giving credence to claims of genocide by Israel, could make it more difficult for Israeli officials involved in the war effort to travel to the United States, though control over any such decisions will rest in the hands of the U.S. Justice Department.
The United States is not the only state that will face these decisions as the case goes forward. Similar legal rules in other states are likely to be triggered by the allegations of genocide, especially if the case moves to the merits stage. A decision in Israel’s favor, however, could put an end to those concerns.
There are broader implications, as well, for human rights law and for the ICJ itself. If the ICJ does allow the case to proceed to the merits, it will further entrench erga omnes partes standing as an important new tool in enforcing international human rights law, making clear that its decisions in The Gambia and the Syria cases were no outliers. Whatever one may think about South Africa’s application, that could be an important step forward for human rights law enforcement, cementing an important new tool for ensuring greater compliance with treaty obligations that have long gone under-enforced.
~intermission~
Law for Palestine: Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated
Reuters: 'Indiscriminately striking' civilians is war crime, pope says in major speech
Palestine Chronicle: 100 Chilean Lawyers Lodge ICC Case against Netanyahu for Gaza War Crimes
From this week, so far:-
Common Dreams: Israel Accused of 'Effort to Intimidate the Judges' Ahead of Genocide Hearings
(This build on Axios' reporting of a cable sighted that indicates Israel's efforts to, ' quash South Africa's Gaza genocide case'.)
[...] the Israeli Foreign Ministry is calling on the country's embassies to pressure host country diplomats and political leaders to swiftly issue an "immediate and unequivocal statement along the following lines: To publicly and clearly state that YOUR COUNTRY rejects the outrage[ous], absurd, and baseless allegations made against Israel."
The cable warns that "a ruling by the court could have significant potential implications that are not only in the legal world but have practical bilateral, multilateral, economic, security ramifications." Israel is seeking to prevent an injunction ordering the country to suspend its attack on Gaza.
Middle East Eye (Jonathan Cook): War on Gaza: The West will stand in the dock alongside Israel at the genocide court
Line in the sand
If Israel and its western allies fail to bludgeon the court into submission, and South Africa’s case is accepted, it will not only be Israel in legal difficulties.
A genocide ruling from the court will impose obligations on other states: both to refuse to assist in Israel’s genocide, such as by providing arms and diplomatic cover, and to sanction Israel should it fail to comply.
An interim order halting Israel’s attack will serve as a line in the sand. Once made, any state that fails to act on the injunction risks becoming complicit in genocide.
That will put the West in a serious legal bind. After all, it has not just been turning a blind eye to the genocide in Gaza; it has been actively cheering it on and colluding in it.
Foreign Policy: It’s Not Too Late for Biden to Restrain Israel
The Biden administration has said that it opposes the expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and also rejects the idea of Israel assuming political and administrative control over the enclave, but the Biden team’s record of holding Israel to account on anything to do with this crisis is extremely weak, and its willingness to stand up to Israel by denying it military or political support still seems close to nil.
In Israel, in the meantime, there continues to be discussion among present and former officials about just this sort of “solution”—often using the euphemism “transfer,” though some in Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party and coalition government have called outright for reducing Gaza’s population or even for a second Nakba—an Arabic word referring to the mass displacement of Palestinians after the creation of present-day Israel in 1948.
The world needs to say no to this and mean it. Clearing Palestinians en masse out of ever more of their land is just the kind of seductive-looking “fix” that is not only profoundly unjust, but will also only guarantee more hatred and tragedy in the future.
New Arab: Hundreds of Israelis support South Africa's ICJ case accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza
Dr Anat Matar, one of the petition initiators, told The New Arab that she is filing the petition to the ICJ in The Hague on Tuesday.
"I initiated this petition first of all because I wanted to show that there is part of Israeli citizens who agree with South Africa's move".
Dr Anat Matar holds a senior lecturer position at Tel Aviv University, where she teaches political philosophy. In addition, she advocates for 'draft refusers', a small segment of Israelis who refuse to serve in the Israeli army because they oppose the occupation.
"What I know for sure is that this war must be stopped immediately. Every moment that passes is a crime".
CNN: Israel is facing a genocide case in international court. Could it halt the war in Gaza?
What happens if the court orders Israel to halt the war?
Israel is set to appear in public hearings before the court on Friday to contest South Africa’s genocide accusations.
A ruling on genocide could take years to prove, but the injunction on the Gaza war that Pretoria has asked the ICJ for could come much sooner.
Daniel Machover, a London-based lawyer and international justice expert, told CNN that a provisional measure should be a quick decision that would be taken before there is a final ruling on genocide.
South Africa, he said, only needs to demonstrate that it has standing to bring the case, has acted on its duty to prevent genocide, that there is a “plausible legal argument” that violations of the Genocide Convention are or may be taking place, and that there is a real and imminent risk that irreparable prejudice will be caused to Gaza residents before the court gives its final decision, such that the court needs to order Israel to stop the war.
Francis Boyle, an American human rights lawyer who won two requests at the ICJ under the Genocide Convention against Yugoslavia on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina, told Democracy Now that based on his review of the documents submitted by South Africa, he believes Pretoria will indeed win “an order against Israel to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Palestinians.”
Boyle, based on his experience in the Bosnian case, said the order could come within a week of this week’s hearing.
Lieblich doubts that Israel would cease the fighting altogether should the court issue an injunction on the war. Instead, it could attack the legitimacy of the court and its judges, “considering that some of them are from states that don’t recognize Israel.” It would also matter whether the decision is unanimous, he added.
“The consequences of non-compliance might range from reputational harm and political pressure to sanctions and other measures by third states or further resolutions in the UN,” he said. “The key for Israel would probably be how its key allies would act in such a case.”
He added that while the threshold for an injunction is relatively low, in the main case, proving genocide requires two elements: proof that certain unlawful acts were committed, and that these acts were committed with specific intent to destroy a certain group.
“In past ICJ cases the court required a high threshold to prove such allegations,” he said. “Here the challenge for South Africa would be to prove that statements by some Israeli officials actually reflect the state’s ‘intent’ as a whole, and also that Israel’s actions on the ground were both unlawful and actually tied to an intent to destroy the group as such.”
Could a ruling have implications outside Israel?
The fallout of an ICJ ruling could spread beyond Israel, according to experts. It would not only embarrass Israel’s closest ally, the US, but could also deem Washington complicit in the alleged violation of the Genocide Convention.
“Even though the South African application focuses on Israel, it has huge implications for the United States, especially President Joe Biden and his principal lieutenants,” wrote John Mearsheimer, an American political scientist.
“Why? Because there is little doubt that the Biden administration is complicitous” in Israel’s war, he said.
People's Dispatch: Lula, Petro, and Arab League declare support to South Africa’s case against Israel
Colombia and Brazil’s foreign ministries announced in separate statements that their governments support South Africa’s historic case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) over the ongoing genocide in Gaza. The two South American nations join a growing list of countries that have saluted South Africa’s initiative to demonstrate that Israel has violated its obligations under the Geneva Convention and oblige the state to cease all such acts.
Third World Approaches to International Law Review: Public Statement: Scholars support South Africa’s submission to the International Court of Justice against Israel for violations of the 1948 Genocide Convention
https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-support-south-africas-submission-to-the-international-court-of-justice-against-israel-for-violations-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/
South Africa’s submission to the ICJ re-emphasises the jus cogens character of the prohibition of genocide and strengthens the legal recourse available to Palestinians in Gaza to ensure their fullest protection against the continued grave and immediate risk of genocide. South Africa’s request for provisional measures from the ICJ presents a path forward for a necessary ceasefire that has so far been hard to reach due to the United State’s obstinate refusal to support a humanitarian ceasefire.
EJILTalk: Does the ICJ have the Legal Authority to Pronounce itself on the Right to Self-Defence?
This view exposes the tension between two values reflected in the international system. On the one hand, there is the neo-classical right of the state to preserve itself from external harm. The state, it is argued, must remain free to take the action it judges necessary in order to safeguard its own existence. On the other hand, there is the modern view. This view focuses on the interests of the international system as a whole. This includes the interest in maintaining a credible prohibition on the use of force. This in turn requires the imposition of limits to claims to self-defence put forward by states.
[...] Matters of High Policy and the Use of Force
The ICJ has consistently refused the argument that it cannot decide a case because the dispute has strong political dimensions.
[...] In fact, the Court has addressed a significant string of cases involving the use of force, including, in addition to Corfu Channel and Nicaragua, Transborder Armed Actions, Platforms, the Armed Activities cases, the Bosnia and Croatia Genocide cases, the Discrimination case between Armenia and Azerbaijan, litigation concerning Georgia and the Russian Federation and Ukraine and the Russian Federation, plus important Advisory Opinions, like Nuclear Weapons and the Wall.
Competition with the Security Council?
A somewhat different variant of this argument would assert that the ICJ cannot become active in relation to issues concerning international peace and security addressed by other UN bodies, or at least the UN Security Council. Hence, it is sometimes argued, that where the Security Council is seized with an issue, the ICJ must respect the role of the Council and remain silent.
However, in the Nicaragua case, the Court emphasized that the primary role of the Council did not mean that it had an exclusive role to play
[...] Matters decided under Chapter VII
This liberal approach even extends to the final, and perhaps strongest possible argument cautioning against ICJ involvement in certain cases. These are instances where the Security Council has taken decisions addressing threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression (mainly, although not necessarily exclusively, formal action under Chapter VII). It could be argued that legal action by the Court could question or prejudice political action by the Council in such cases. This argument was pursued with some vigour in the context of attempts to attack the arms embargo against Bosnia through the Court while that country was confronted with a campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide. [See Bosnian Genocide Case, Judge Lauterpacht, Separate Opinion, ICJ Rep 1993, p 326, 407, paras 98ff]
Again, though, actual practice over many decades runs against this argument. The Court has not only interpreted the legal character and force of Security Council resolutions (e.g., Namibia Opinion [ICJ Rep 1971, p 16, paras 52ff]) and pronounced on their content [for instance, Kosovo Advisory Opinion, ICJ Rep 2010, p. 403, para 94], but it has also pronounced itself on their validity [Namibia, above, para 20ff]. In the Judgment on Jurisdiction in the Lockerbie case, the Court did not accept the argument that the case could no longer be addressed, given the adoption of Chapter VII Resolution 748 which, it had been asserted, was henceforth controlling the issue under review. [Lockerbie, Jurisdiction, ICJ Rep 1998, p. 9, paras 44ff] In the Armed Activities Case (DR Congo-Uganda), among the several others already noted above, the ICJ considered a use of force case that had been addressed by the UN Security Council and ordered interim measures in relation to it. [ICJ Rep 2000, p. 111, para 47]
This view is fully in accord with the changing understanding of the role of the Security Council after the (as it turned out, provisional) termination of the Cold War around 1990. There was a sudden plethora of Charter VII decisions entirely unforeseen at the time of the drafting of the Charter.
[...] No Chapter VII Resolution on Gaza
Of course, in this instance, the UN Security Council has been unable to act with reference to Chapter VII. When confronted with the repeated application of the US veto, the Council was only able, eventually, to adopt resolutions without such a reference, addressing humanitarian issues and not the ius ad bellum (Resolutions 2712 (2023), 2720 (2023)).
While these texts at times adopt mandatory language (‘demands’), they are not formally adopted under Chapter VII. There is no finding of a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, and no invocation of Chapter VII or of Articles 40, 41 or 42. In Council practice since 1991, starting with Resolution 688 (1991), these two elements are taken as reliable indicators of the Chapter VII character of a text.
Hence, there is actually no prospect of supposed interference by the ICJ with matters decided by the Council under Chapter VII. Even if there had been a Chapter VII resolution, it would not likely have addressed the question of self-defence. In fact, the refusal to include a reference to Israel’s claimed right to self-defence contributed to the US decision to veto several earlier attempts to pass a resolution on the conflict in Gaza.
Non-justiciability of Self-Defence?
Hence, the ICJ can address issues concerning the use of force, including those also addressed by the Security Council. The question remains whether there is any reason to go against this finding where a case involving self-defence is concerned.
[...]No Grounds for a Bar to Provisional Measures
If the Council has the authority to review issues concerning the use of force, and if it can pronounce itself on self-defence, then it is not easy to see how a bar to adopting provisional measures can be constructed in those instances. In fact, it has had no hesitation in the past to adopt interim measures of protection where the use of force and claims to self-defence are concerned. [E.g., Armed Activities, Congo-Uganda, ICJ Rep 2000, p. 111, para 47]
Most recently, in relation to Ukraine, the Russian Federation had offered an, admittedly, somewhat confused legal justification for the invasion to the UN Security Council, also drawing on self-defence. In that instance, the Provisional Measures Order formally requires the Russian Federation to ‘immediately suspend the military operation that it commenced on 24 February 2022 in the territory of Ukraine.’ [ICJ Rep 2022, p. 211, para 86] This does amount to a suspension of the claimed right to self-defence, along with the rejection of other supposed justifications offered by the Russian Federation.
It is of course true that Israel, in contrast to Ukraine, suffered an atrocious attack before launching the present operations in Gaza. This will likely affect the appreciation of Israel’s position on self-defence on the part of the Court if it comes to that.
Given the jurisdictional focus and certain other factors in the present case, the Court may of course be reluctant to stray too far into jus ad bellum issues, if it addresses them at all, although it did so in relation to Ukraine. After all, genocide, if it is found to be occurring in Gaza, would be fundamentally unlawful, whether or not self-defence applies. However, contrary to Jesse Lempel’s spirited argument, Israel cannot avoid scrutiny of its use of force and associated practices, and possible interim measures of protection, simply by invoking self-defence. The use of force by one state, whatever the justification offered, is a matter of concern for the organized international community as a whole. Cases of this nature can be addressed by the competent international institutions, including the ICJ, through all the legal instruments at their disposal.
I have way too many saved tweets, that'll take some time, as a number of them have relevant comments. But when I was asleep, Yoav Gallant and Nehtanyahu has issued (English-only) statements that they're not seeking to remove all Gazans. Yair Rosenberg reports that this was a success of Biden's backdoor policy.
I'll leave Daniel Seidemann to comment:
True to form.
In 2015, under pressure from Kerry, Netanyahu acknowledged the status quo at Al Aqsa/Temple Mt.: “Muslims worship, non-Muslims visit״.
The statement was in English only, buried deep in a website & at midnight when Israel slept.
He doesn’t dare say this in Hebrew.
posted by cendawanita at 1:43 AM on January 11 [14 favorites]
In the meantime: -
From last week (and this was in the initial reaction, as the SA filing came in literally in the last days of 2023):
(AP; as posted by a Canadian outlet) South Africa says Israel’s campaign in Gaza amounts to genocide. What can the UN do about it?
HOW DID ISRAEL REACT TO EARLIER COURT PROCEEDINGS?
Israel did not attend hearings in 2004 when the ICJ discussed an advisory opinion requested by the U.N. into the legality of Israel’s barrier wall. The court ruled in a non-binding opinion that the wall was “contrary to international law.” Israel sent a written statement to the court before the ruling saying it did not consider it to have jurisdiction and should not respond to the U.N. request for the advisory opinion.
Israel also has in the past refused to cooperate with an investigation after the 2008-9 Gaza war, a UN investigation into the 2014 Gaza war, and the ongoing Human Rights Council investigation into alleged abuses against Palestinians.
Israel is not a member of another Hague-based court, the International Criminal Court. Other countries that are not ICC members include major global powers the United States, China and Russia.
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
South Africa’s filing includes a request for the court to urgently issue legally binding interim orders for Israel to “immediately suspend its military operations in and against Gaza.”
Such orders, known as provisional measures, would remain while the case progresses. They’re legally binding but not always followed. In 2022, in a genocide case filed by Ukraine against Russia, the court ordered Moscow to immediately suspend its invasion, but the order was ignored.
Guardian: Israeli public figures accuse judiciary of ignoring incitement to genocide in Gaza
A group of prominent Israelis has accused the country’s judicial authorities of ignoring “extensive and blatant” incitement to genocide and ethnic cleansing in Gaza by influential public figures.
In a letter to the attorney general and state prosecutors, they demand action to stop the normalisation of language that breaks both Israeli and international law.
“For the first time that we can remember, the explicit calls to commit atrocious crimes, as stated, against millions of civilians have turned into a legitimate and regular part of Israeli discourse,” they write. “Today, calls of these types are an everyday matter in Israel.”
Signatories include one of Israel’s top scientists, the Royal Society member Prof David Harel, alongside other academics, former diplomats, former members of the Knesset, journalists and activists.
[...] Sfard said he was stunned by the speed with which incitement to genocide and other extreme speech had been normalised in Israel. “I never could have imagined that I would need to write such a letter,” he said. “The fact that this type of talk has completely left the far, unimportant fringes and came into the mainstream in such a massive way, for me it’s incomprehensible.
[...] The letter was sent before South Africa filed a case at the international court of justice accusing Israel of genocide and of failing to stop incitement to genocide. “We filed this letter last week, before South Africa lodged their complaint, and without knowing they were going to do that,” Sfard said.
The group Sfard represents does not accuse Israel of genocide in Gaza; their letter is about incitement to genocide inside Israel. However, the charges of incitement levelled by South Africa includes language cited in the letter and notes authorities’ failure to take judicial action in response.
It was the role of the attorney general to make clear that comments inciting genocide were unacceptable, amount to incitement and had become normalised, Sfard said. “We want to flag this and allow the authorities an opportunity to do something about it.”
South African Jews for a Free Palestine: SAJFP Welcomes SA Government’s Invocation of Genocide Convention against ‘Israel’
[...] Labelling the application to the ICJ in terms of the Genocide Convention “blood libel” is not only a complete misrepresentation of what blood libel is, it is a further instance of Jewish historical experience being weaponised in service of Israel’s settler colonial project.
This trope joins a significant deployment of dog whistle and explicit anti-Palestinian racism from both the Israeli government and Zionists globally and in South Africa in response to the submission. We refuse in the strongest terms the attempts to smear this process by Israel and its allies as well as by South African Zionist institutions and individuals such as the South African Jewish Board of Deputies, the South African Zionist Federation, and Chief Rabbi Warren Goldstein. Their words do nothing more than manufacture further violence and fail to honour the living and the dead.
One of the key principles that guides Jewish faith and morality is tzedeq, which means justice. It is this principle, among many others that guides us to unwaveringly dream and fight towards a world of justice and freedom in Palestine and globally. While we will not conflate law and justice, we commend this move as part of a repertoire of justice, guided by principles of solidarity, freedom, and tzedeq.
In this spirit, we reiterate our welcoming of this legal action and hope to see a ceasefire in the immediate term, alongside complete end to the genocide, and the dismantling of the apartheid settler colonial Zionist project of the ongoing Nakba in Palestine.
Just Security: The Promise and Risk of South Africa’s Case Against Israel
The application has set off a firestorm. The accusation of genocide is particularly gut-wrenching for many Israelis. After all, the Holocaust, in which six million Jews were killed, was the impetus for the very treaty that Israel is now accused of violating. Israeli government spokesman Eylon Levy furiously stated, “The State of Israel will appear before the International Court of Justice at The Hague to dispel South Africa’s absurd blood libel,” equating the application with antisemitic slander against Jews.
Here we take a step back to examine the legal claims made by South Africa in its application, the basis for South Africa’s claim for standing to bring the case, what to expect as the case unfolds, and the possible broader legal effects of the case, including for the United States and other allies of Israel. Whatever one thinks of the merits of South Africa’s claims, the case demonstrates that the new form of standing recognized by the Court—“erga omnes partes standing” (standing based on obligations “in relation to everyone,” or owed to all), which we have discussed at length in a forthcoming law review article—has the potential to revolutionize the enforcement of long under-enforced human rights treaties. But this new frontier brings risk to the Court as well.
[...] What to Expect Next
On Jan. 3, less than a week after South Africa submitted its application, the Court announced that it will hold public hearings on the request for provisional measures on Thursday and Friday of next week (January 11 and 12). The Court will then decide whether to impose provisional measures. That decision may take weeks or months. In The Gambia case, for example, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came roughly 2 months after The Gambia filed its application (but only about 1 month after the public hearings); in the case by Canada and the Netherlands against Syria, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came over 5 months after the application (but just over 1 month after public hearings). In the case between Ukraine and Russia, the Court’s decision on provisional measures came just over 1 month after Ukraine filed an application and about 2 weeks after the public hearings.
In its decision on provisional measures, the Court will determine whether it has prima facia jurisdiction, including whether South Africa has based its application on treaty rights and obligations that are “plausible,” and whether there is a sufficient link between the measures requested by South Africa and the rights whose protection is sought. It will also consider whether there is a risk of irreparable harm and a situation of urgency, two criteria likely to be easily met in these circumstances.
It is important to note that at this initial stage, according to the Court’s jurisprudence (The Gambia v. Myanmar, para. 56), it is not necessary for the Court to make a finding as to whether Israel’s conduct in Gaza amounts to genocide. The Court may choose to impose some, but not all, of South Africa’s requested provisional measures. In making its decision, it will consider whether the rights and obligations claimed by South Africa on the merits, and for which it is seeking resolution, are plausible. It will not have to definitively determine that it has jurisdiction to hear the merits, nor will it need to go beyond a showing of “plausible” allegations as to violations of obligations under the Convention. It is possible that the Court could allow the case to proceed but ultimately decide against South Africa on either jurisdiction or the merits of the case.
[...] Possible Ramifications of the Case
The case could have a number of ramifications. It has already brought more focus to claims that Israel’s military intervention is being conducted in violation of international law, and specifically claims involving the Genocide Convention.
South Africa’s application was not the first such assertion in a court of law. In mid-November, the Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) filed a lawsuit in U.S. district court making similar arguments. Its complaint argues that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinian people in Gaza in violation of the Genocide Convention. The case, filed not against Israel but against U.S. officials, argues that the United States’ failure to exercise its influence over Israel to prevent genocide constitutes a failure to prevent genocide as well as complicity in genocide. Among other things, it seeks a declaration that U.S. officials have violated their duty under customary international law to prevent Israel from committing genocide and injunctive relief ordering them to take all measures within their power to prevent Israel’s commission of genocidal acts.
South Africa’s case does not bear directly on this domestic lawsuit, which remains a longshot to say the least, but it could be seen to lend credence to the U.S. lawsuit’s underlying claims. Even if the CCR’s suit itself fails, the claims raise a series of difficult questions for the U.S. government. As a party to the Genocide Convention, the United States has an obligation to take affirmative action to prevent genocide. If the ICJ finds a prima facie case that it has jurisdiction to hear the case, that could force lawyers within the U.S. government to consider the legality of, for example, ongoing financial and military assistance to Israel.
U.S. law known as the Leahy Law prohibits military assistance to foreign security forces where there is credible information implicating that unit in the commission of gross violations of human rights. As Brian Finucane has written, U.S. financial and military support for Israel implicates a host of other domestic legal prohibitions (see also this explanatory piece in Just Security). These concerns are not new to the ongoing conflict. In October, State Department official Josh Paul resigned from the bureau that oversees arms transfers to foreign nations, citing specifically his objection to the administration’s military assistance to Israel. The case in the ICJ may lend weight to these longstanding concerns, whether the Court sides with Israel on the claims of incitement to genocide or the prevention of genocidal acts.
U.S. law also makes genocide, as well as incitement to genocide, a criminal offense. The law applies not only to U.S. nationals and residents but also to those “present in the United States.” It is unlikely, but not impossible, that the ICJ case, in giving credence to claims of genocide by Israel, could make it more difficult for Israeli officials involved in the war effort to travel to the United States, though control over any such decisions will rest in the hands of the U.S. Justice Department.
The United States is not the only state that will face these decisions as the case goes forward. Similar legal rules in other states are likely to be triggered by the allegations of genocide, especially if the case moves to the merits stage. A decision in Israel’s favor, however, could put an end to those concerns.
There are broader implications, as well, for human rights law and for the ICJ itself. If the ICJ does allow the case to proceed to the merits, it will further entrench erga omnes partes standing as an important new tool in enforcing international human rights law, making clear that its decisions in The Gambia and the Syria cases were no outliers. Whatever one may think about South Africa’s application, that could be an important step forward for human rights law enforcement, cementing an important new tool for ensuring greater compliance with treaty obligations that have long gone under-enforced.
~intermission~
Law for Palestine: Law for Palestine Releases Database with 500+ Instances of Israeli Incitement to Genocide – Continuously Updated
Reuters: 'Indiscriminately striking' civilians is war crime, pope says in major speech
Palestine Chronicle: 100 Chilean Lawyers Lodge ICC Case against Netanyahu for Gaza War Crimes
From this week, so far:-
Common Dreams: Israel Accused of 'Effort to Intimidate the Judges' Ahead of Genocide Hearings
(This build on Axios' reporting of a cable sighted that indicates Israel's efforts to, ' quash South Africa's Gaza genocide case'.)
[...] the Israeli Foreign Ministry is calling on the country's embassies to pressure host country diplomats and political leaders to swiftly issue an "immediate and unequivocal statement along the following lines: To publicly and clearly state that YOUR COUNTRY rejects the outrage[ous], absurd, and baseless allegations made against Israel."
The cable warns that "a ruling by the court could have significant potential implications that are not only in the legal world but have practical bilateral, multilateral, economic, security ramifications." Israel is seeking to prevent an injunction ordering the country to suspend its attack on Gaza.
Middle East Eye (Jonathan Cook): War on Gaza: The West will stand in the dock alongside Israel at the genocide court
Line in the sand
If Israel and its western allies fail to bludgeon the court into submission, and South Africa’s case is accepted, it will not only be Israel in legal difficulties.
A genocide ruling from the court will impose obligations on other states: both to refuse to assist in Israel’s genocide, such as by providing arms and diplomatic cover, and to sanction Israel should it fail to comply.
An interim order halting Israel’s attack will serve as a line in the sand. Once made, any state that fails to act on the injunction risks becoming complicit in genocide.
That will put the West in a serious legal bind. After all, it has not just been turning a blind eye to the genocide in Gaza; it has been actively cheering it on and colluding in it.
Foreign Policy: It’s Not Too Late for Biden to Restrain Israel
The Biden administration has said that it opposes the expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip and also rejects the idea of Israel assuming political and administrative control over the enclave, but the Biden team’s record of holding Israel to account on anything to do with this crisis is extremely weak, and its willingness to stand up to Israel by denying it military or political support still seems close to nil.
In Israel, in the meantime, there continues to be discussion among present and former officials about just this sort of “solution”—often using the euphemism “transfer,” though some in Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s party and coalition government have called outright for reducing Gaza’s population or even for a second Nakba—an Arabic word referring to the mass displacement of Palestinians after the creation of present-day Israel in 1948.
The world needs to say no to this and mean it. Clearing Palestinians en masse out of ever more of their land is just the kind of seductive-looking “fix” that is not only profoundly unjust, but will also only guarantee more hatred and tragedy in the future.
New Arab: Hundreds of Israelis support South Africa's ICJ case accusing Israel of genocide in Gaza
Dr Anat Matar, one of the petition initiators, told The New Arab that she is filing the petition to the ICJ in The Hague on Tuesday.
"I initiated this petition first of all because I wanted to show that there is part of Israeli citizens who agree with South Africa's move".
Dr Anat Matar holds a senior lecturer position at Tel Aviv University, where she teaches political philosophy. In addition, she advocates for 'draft refusers', a small segment of Israelis who refuse to serve in the Israeli army because they oppose the occupation.
"What I know for sure is that this war must be stopped immediately. Every moment that passes is a crime".
CNN: Israel is facing a genocide case in international court. Could it halt the war in Gaza?
What happens if the court orders Israel to halt the war?
Israel is set to appear in public hearings before the court on Friday to contest South Africa’s genocide accusations.
A ruling on genocide could take years to prove, but the injunction on the Gaza war that Pretoria has asked the ICJ for could come much sooner.
Daniel Machover, a London-based lawyer and international justice expert, told CNN that a provisional measure should be a quick decision that would be taken before there is a final ruling on genocide.
South Africa, he said, only needs to demonstrate that it has standing to bring the case, has acted on its duty to prevent genocide, that there is a “plausible legal argument” that violations of the Genocide Convention are or may be taking place, and that there is a real and imminent risk that irreparable prejudice will be caused to Gaza residents before the court gives its final decision, such that the court needs to order Israel to stop the war.
Francis Boyle, an American human rights lawyer who won two requests at the ICJ under the Genocide Convention against Yugoslavia on behalf of Bosnia and Herzegovina, told Democracy Now that based on his review of the documents submitted by South Africa, he believes Pretoria will indeed win “an order against Israel to cease and desist from committing all acts of genocide against the Palestinians.”
Boyle, based on his experience in the Bosnian case, said the order could come within a week of this week’s hearing.
Lieblich doubts that Israel would cease the fighting altogether should the court issue an injunction on the war. Instead, it could attack the legitimacy of the court and its judges, “considering that some of them are from states that don’t recognize Israel.” It would also matter whether the decision is unanimous, he added.
“The consequences of non-compliance might range from reputational harm and political pressure to sanctions and other measures by third states or further resolutions in the UN,” he said. “The key for Israel would probably be how its key allies would act in such a case.”
He added that while the threshold for an injunction is relatively low, in the main case, proving genocide requires two elements: proof that certain unlawful acts were committed, and that these acts were committed with specific intent to destroy a certain group.
“In past ICJ cases the court required a high threshold to prove such allegations,” he said. “Here the challenge for South Africa would be to prove that statements by some Israeli officials actually reflect the state’s ‘intent’ as a whole, and also that Israel’s actions on the ground were both unlawful and actually tied to an intent to destroy the group as such.”
Could a ruling have implications outside Israel?
The fallout of an ICJ ruling could spread beyond Israel, according to experts. It would not only embarrass Israel’s closest ally, the US, but could also deem Washington complicit in the alleged violation of the Genocide Convention.
“Even though the South African application focuses on Israel, it has huge implications for the United States, especially President Joe Biden and his principal lieutenants,” wrote John Mearsheimer, an American political scientist.
“Why? Because there is little doubt that the Biden administration is complicitous” in Israel’s war, he said.
People's Dispatch: Lula, Petro, and Arab League declare support to South Africa’s case against Israel
Colombia and Brazil’s foreign ministries announced in separate statements that their governments support South Africa’s historic case against Israel at the International Court of Justice (ICJ) over the ongoing genocide in Gaza. The two South American nations join a growing list of countries that have saluted South Africa’s initiative to demonstrate that Israel has violated its obligations under the Geneva Convention and oblige the state to cease all such acts.
Third World Approaches to International Law Review: Public Statement: Scholars support South Africa’s submission to the International Court of Justice against Israel for violations of the 1948 Genocide Convention
https://twailr.com/public-statement-scholars-support-south-africas-submission-to-the-international-court-of-justice-against-israel-for-violations-of-the-1948-genocide-convention/
South Africa’s submission to the ICJ re-emphasises the jus cogens character of the prohibition of genocide and strengthens the legal recourse available to Palestinians in Gaza to ensure their fullest protection against the continued grave and immediate risk of genocide. South Africa’s request for provisional measures from the ICJ presents a path forward for a necessary ceasefire that has so far been hard to reach due to the United State’s obstinate refusal to support a humanitarian ceasefire.
EJILTalk: Does the ICJ have the Legal Authority to Pronounce itself on the Right to Self-Defence?
This view exposes the tension between two values reflected in the international system. On the one hand, there is the neo-classical right of the state to preserve itself from external harm. The state, it is argued, must remain free to take the action it judges necessary in order to safeguard its own existence. On the other hand, there is the modern view. This view focuses on the interests of the international system as a whole. This includes the interest in maintaining a credible prohibition on the use of force. This in turn requires the imposition of limits to claims to self-defence put forward by states.
[...] Matters of High Policy and the Use of Force
The ICJ has consistently refused the argument that it cannot decide a case because the dispute has strong political dimensions.
[...] In fact, the Court has addressed a significant string of cases involving the use of force, including, in addition to Corfu Channel and Nicaragua, Transborder Armed Actions, Platforms, the Armed Activities cases, the Bosnia and Croatia Genocide cases, the Discrimination case between Armenia and Azerbaijan, litigation concerning Georgia and the Russian Federation and Ukraine and the Russian Federation, plus important Advisory Opinions, like Nuclear Weapons and the Wall.
Competition with the Security Council?
A somewhat different variant of this argument would assert that the ICJ cannot become active in relation to issues concerning international peace and security addressed by other UN bodies, or at least the UN Security Council. Hence, it is sometimes argued, that where the Security Council is seized with an issue, the ICJ must respect the role of the Council and remain silent.
However, in the Nicaragua case, the Court emphasized that the primary role of the Council did not mean that it had an exclusive role to play
[...] Matters decided under Chapter VII
This liberal approach even extends to the final, and perhaps strongest possible argument cautioning against ICJ involvement in certain cases. These are instances where the Security Council has taken decisions addressing threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression (mainly, although not necessarily exclusively, formal action under Chapter VII). It could be argued that legal action by the Court could question or prejudice political action by the Council in such cases. This argument was pursued with some vigour in the context of attempts to attack the arms embargo against Bosnia through the Court while that country was confronted with a campaign of ethnic cleansing and genocide. [See Bosnian Genocide Case, Judge Lauterpacht, Separate Opinion, ICJ Rep 1993, p 326, 407, paras 98ff]
Again, though, actual practice over many decades runs against this argument. The Court has not only interpreted the legal character and force of Security Council resolutions (e.g., Namibia Opinion [ICJ Rep 1971, p 16, paras 52ff]) and pronounced on their content [for instance, Kosovo Advisory Opinion, ICJ Rep 2010, p. 403, para 94], but it has also pronounced itself on their validity [Namibia, above, para 20ff]. In the Judgment on Jurisdiction in the Lockerbie case, the Court did not accept the argument that the case could no longer be addressed, given the adoption of Chapter VII Resolution 748 which, it had been asserted, was henceforth controlling the issue under review. [Lockerbie, Jurisdiction, ICJ Rep 1998, p. 9, paras 44ff] In the Armed Activities Case (DR Congo-Uganda), among the several others already noted above, the ICJ considered a use of force case that had been addressed by the UN Security Council and ordered interim measures in relation to it. [ICJ Rep 2000, p. 111, para 47]
This view is fully in accord with the changing understanding of the role of the Security Council after the (as it turned out, provisional) termination of the Cold War around 1990. There was a sudden plethora of Charter VII decisions entirely unforeseen at the time of the drafting of the Charter.
[...] No Chapter VII Resolution on Gaza
Of course, in this instance, the UN Security Council has been unable to act with reference to Chapter VII. When confronted with the repeated application of the US veto, the Council was only able, eventually, to adopt resolutions without such a reference, addressing humanitarian issues and not the ius ad bellum (Resolutions 2712 (2023), 2720 (2023)).
While these texts at times adopt mandatory language (‘demands’), they are not formally adopted under Chapter VII. There is no finding of a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, and no invocation of Chapter VII or of Articles 40, 41 or 42. In Council practice since 1991, starting with Resolution 688 (1991), these two elements are taken as reliable indicators of the Chapter VII character of a text.
Hence, there is actually no prospect of supposed interference by the ICJ with matters decided by the Council under Chapter VII. Even if there had been a Chapter VII resolution, it would not likely have addressed the question of self-defence. In fact, the refusal to include a reference to Israel’s claimed right to self-defence contributed to the US decision to veto several earlier attempts to pass a resolution on the conflict in Gaza.
Non-justiciability of Self-Defence?
Hence, the ICJ can address issues concerning the use of force, including those also addressed by the Security Council. The question remains whether there is any reason to go against this finding where a case involving self-defence is concerned.
[...]No Grounds for a Bar to Provisional Measures
If the Council has the authority to review issues concerning the use of force, and if it can pronounce itself on self-defence, then it is not easy to see how a bar to adopting provisional measures can be constructed in those instances. In fact, it has had no hesitation in the past to adopt interim measures of protection where the use of force and claims to self-defence are concerned. [E.g., Armed Activities, Congo-Uganda, ICJ Rep 2000, p. 111, para 47]
Most recently, in relation to Ukraine, the Russian Federation had offered an, admittedly, somewhat confused legal justification for the invasion to the UN Security Council, also drawing on self-defence. In that instance, the Provisional Measures Order formally requires the Russian Federation to ‘immediately suspend the military operation that it commenced on 24 February 2022 in the territory of Ukraine.’ [ICJ Rep 2022, p. 211, para 86] This does amount to a suspension of the claimed right to self-defence, along with the rejection of other supposed justifications offered by the Russian Federation.
It is of course true that Israel, in contrast to Ukraine, suffered an atrocious attack before launching the present operations in Gaza. This will likely affect the appreciation of Israel’s position on self-defence on the part of the Court if it comes to that.
Given the jurisdictional focus and certain other factors in the present case, the Court may of course be reluctant to stray too far into jus ad bellum issues, if it addresses them at all, although it did so in relation to Ukraine. After all, genocide, if it is found to be occurring in Gaza, would be fundamentally unlawful, whether or not self-defence applies. However, contrary to Jesse Lempel’s spirited argument, Israel cannot avoid scrutiny of its use of force and associated practices, and possible interim measures of protection, simply by invoking self-defence. The use of force by one state, whatever the justification offered, is a matter of concern for the organized international community as a whole. Cases of this nature can be addressed by the competent international institutions, including the ICJ, through all the legal instruments at their disposal.
I have way too many saved tweets, that'll take some time, as a number of them have relevant comments. But when I was asleep, Yoav Gallant and Nehtanyahu has issued (English-only) statements that they're not seeking to remove all Gazans. Yair Rosenberg reports that this was a success of Biden's backdoor policy.
I'll leave Daniel Seidemann to comment:
True to form.
In 2015, under pressure from Kerry, Netanyahu acknowledged the status quo at Al Aqsa/Temple Mt.: “Muslims worship, non-Muslims visit״.
The statement was in English only, buried deep in a website & at midnight when Israel slept.
He doesn’t dare say this in Hebrew.
posted by cendawanita at 1:43 AM on January 11 [14 favorites]
Wow cendawanita! Majestic link dump, but I'll only check it out later - now watching the live feed from ICJ. Thanks for that link especially!
posted by kmt at 2:14 AM on January 11 [2 favorites]
posted by kmt at 2:14 AM on January 11 [2 favorites]
So… like, I am just a simple layman, and I have to wonder what happens if the ICC rules that it’s officially a genocide, given that Israel and the US (their richest ally) do not respect the authority of the court itself
like this almost feels like a case designed to test the foundations of the UN and the concept of “war crimes” and I genuinely don’t know what to expect out of it in terms of what the court could realistically do
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:47 AM on January 11 [1 favorite]
like this almost feels like a case designed to test the foundations of the UN and the concept of “war crimes” and I genuinely don’t know what to expect out of it in terms of what the court could realistically do
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:47 AM on January 11 [1 favorite]
Well, the global south countries have a practice of revolving their foreign policy and their legal commitments around the UN and its mechanisms-- this is often badly understood by westerners and even global southies who operate like their countries have no leverage at the international platform. This is of course when it suits them, just like the global north, but it's little documented by global media because conversely they tend to have little leverage for unilateral actions (cf. Venezuela and its current attempts to annex Guyana).
The most eyebrow-raising result may be the assembly of a UN Peacekeeping Force, assuming further reduction of UNHQ operations in a US jurisdiction is impossible. But you can expect all these "small" countries to proceed accordingly diplomatically and economically.
By the way, Dr Sam Youssef: Arab media: Djibouti has rejected the US request to deploy missile launchers in this country with the aim of attacking Yemen and has told the US that the only way to stop the Yemeni operations is to end the Gaza war.
posted by cendawanita at 3:16 AM on January 11 [17 favorites]
The most eyebrow-raising result may be the assembly of a UN Peacekeeping Force, assuming further reduction of UNHQ operations in a US jurisdiction is impossible. But you can expect all these "small" countries to proceed accordingly diplomatically and economically.
By the way, Dr Sam Youssef: Arab media: Djibouti has rejected the US request to deploy missile launchers in this country with the aim of attacking Yemen and has told the US that the only way to stop the Yemeni operations is to end the Gaza war.
posted by cendawanita at 3:16 AM on January 11 [17 favorites]
“South Africa's Genocide Case Against Israel Is Serious,” Spencer Ackerman, Forever Wars, 11 January 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 1:26 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 1:26 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
per this article about attacks on yemen, ABC news confirms the attacks are underway.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on January 11
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on January 11
The airstrikes on Yemen are absolutely monstrous. The US empire doesn't have the dead babies excuse this time; Ansarallah's blockade hasn't killed a single person. Our governments only care about money.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on January 11 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:08 PM on January 11 [7 favorites]
"From a military standpoint, the missile and drone launches against Israel were symbolic messages. Attacks against international shipping lanes pose a different level of hazard. Pushing the envelope too much could trigger an international reaction.
From a US perspective, the Houthis crossed a red line by increasing the number of attacks against commercial ships. Very often, though, the Houthis escalate military activity right before talks or right before agreements in order to show that after the agreement, they are de-escalating."
"Heavy explosions were reported in the Yemeni capital of Sana’a and the port city of Al Hudaydah.
The airstrikes were intended to hit at a source of the militant group’s attacks and came after the Biden administration warned there would be consequences for the barrage of drones and anti-ship missiles that had targeted ships in the vital trade waterway."
posted by clavdivs at 4:26 PM on January 11
From a US perspective, the Houthis crossed a red line by increasing the number of attacks against commercial ships. Very often, though, the Houthis escalate military activity right before talks or right before agreements in order to show that after the agreement, they are de-escalating."
"Heavy explosions were reported in the Yemeni capital of Sana’a and the port city of Al Hudaydah.
The airstrikes were intended to hit at a source of the militant group’s attacks and came after the Biden administration warned there would be consequences for the barrage of drones and anti-ship missiles that had targeted ships in the vital trade waterway."
posted by clavdivs at 4:26 PM on January 11
Islamic State Affiliates Claim Attacks Under “Kill Them Wherever You Find Them” Campaign: January 2024
"The Israel Defense Forces continued clearing operations in the Central Governorate of the Gaza Strip. Palestinian militias continued attempting to defend against Israeli clearing operations in the central Gaza Strip."
"clearing operations" wow, what a euphemism if I ever heard it, did someone spill a saucer of milk. jebus.
"Israeli media reported that the latest Qatari proposal for a ceasefire agreement would include exiling Hamas leaders from the Gaza Strip." ibid.
"The nightmare of the Islamic State resurfaces in Iran"
posted by clavdivs at 4:43 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
"The Israel Defense Forces continued clearing operations in the Central Governorate of the Gaza Strip. Palestinian militias continued attempting to defend against Israeli clearing operations in the central Gaza Strip."
"clearing operations" wow, what a euphemism if I ever heard it, did someone spill a saucer of milk. jebus.
"Israeli media reported that the latest Qatari proposal for a ceasefire agreement would include exiling Hamas leaders from the Gaza Strip." ibid.
"The nightmare of the Islamic State resurfaces in Iran"
posted by clavdivs at 4:43 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
Craig Murray was there and will be again tomorrow queuing for one of only 14 seats in the public gallery.
Temperature at The Hague is just above zero.
"Chapeau" Craig.
posted by adamvasco at 4:57 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
Temperature at The Hague is just above zero.
"Chapeau" Craig.
posted by adamvasco at 4:57 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
"Israeli media reported that the latest Qatari proposal for a ceasefire agreement would include exiling Hamas leaders from the Gaza Strip."This continues to be fucking infuriating. Palestinians may or may not like Hamas, but they do in fact have a right to determine their own government rather than have regime change imposed on them from outside.
"The airstrikes were intended to hit at a source of the militant group’s attacks and came after the Biden administration warned there would be consequences for the barrage of drones and anti-ship missiles that had targeted ships in the vital trade waterway."Ansarallah is effectively the government of Yemen. They have de facto rule over 80% of the population! The only reason they are not the official government is that the official government is puppeteered by the US & the Saudis, and the US only tolerates populist uprisings when we engineer them.
Look, i don't like their slogan either, but the point is that if Ansarallah were the de jure government of Yemen rather than just the de facto government, they would absolutely have the right under international law to restrict Israeli-linked commerce. (The Bab-el-Mandeb strait is under the sovereignty of Yemen and Djibouti! It is unequivocally territorial waters!) Does anyone think the US and UK wouldn't bomb Yemen, even if that were the case?
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:23 PM on January 11 [9 favorites]
Meanwhile, the genocide of Palestinians continues apace, not just in Gaza but in the West Bank too.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:26 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:26 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
I’m pretty sure someone linked upthread Spencer Ackerman’s post on South Africa’s filing document. I’ve read the post but also started reading sections of the filing document. Most informative to me so far has been the section attempting to establish intent. I’ve kept up with almost all the mefi convo and there were numerous ones I either didn’t remember or hadn’t seen. The document makes a point of calling out that genocidal language is common in mass media in Israel without censure by the government or any attempt at restriction. I’d not really understood the magnitude of genocidal messaging in public discourse in Israel. :(
posted by R343L at 5:38 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
posted by R343L at 5:38 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
I’ve kept up with almost all the mefi convo and there were numerous ones I either didn’t remember or hadn’t seen. The document makes a point of calling out that genocidal language is common in mass media in Israel without censure by the government or any attempt at restriction
Like adrienneleigh, the barrage of news and accounts were too overwhelming for me to share regularly here, but unfortunately the mentions brought up were all that I've seen shared elsewhere before. Speaking only for myself, the overwhelm wasn't the volume but also the need to present them 'properly'. Others have commented generally on how mefi leans reflexively sympathetic to the rhetorical position that a criticism of Israel is equivalent to antisemitism and I've seen how earlier shares of bad behaviour generated clear distress and upset and a sense of being attacked by mefites of jewish background and i couldn't find it in me to argue and see tangents of collective soothing at every instance of genocidal language shared, of which there are many so I kept at the drier western-led reporting, which was convenient in presenting a more civil situation even though that's not been the case. I'm sure these threads have caused many to assume that I and the few others who were sharing before being faced with distress must be thought of as antisemites.
Incidentally, the Israeli response through official channels and spokespeople after South Africa's turn yesterday was to declare the country and the legal team Hamas sympathizers*. In any case, the poor coverage by Western media yesterday I assume will improve today as it will be Israel's turn.
*sample - a qt from Alonso Gurmendi
In this mind-boggling rant of a press release, the Israeli MFA libels Adila Hassim, Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, John Dugard, Blinne ni Ghrálaigh, Max du Plessis, and Vaughan Lowe, calling them Hamas' representatives seeking to enable war crimes. This is unserious and frankly delusional
The tweet quoted:
Today we were witness to one of the greatest shows of hypocrisy in history, compounded by a series of false and baseless claims.
South Africa, which is functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organization, utterly distorted the reality in Gaza following the October 7 massacre and completely ignored the fact that Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, murdered, executed, massacred, raped and abducted Israeli citizens, simply because they were Israelis, in an attempt to carry out genocide.
South Africa seeks to allow Hamas to return to commit the war crimes, crimes against humanity and sexual crimes they committed repeatedly on October 7, as its leaders have stated.
Hamas’ representatives in the Court, the South African lawyers, are also ignoring the fact that Hamas uses the civilian population in Gaza as human shields and operates from within hospitals, schools, UN shelters, mosques and churches with the intention of endangering the lives of the residents of the Gaza Strip.
136 hostages are being held in Hamas captivity, denied access to Red Cross representatives and medical care.
The State of Israel will continue to protect its citizens in accordance with international law, while distinguishing between Hamas terrorists and the civilian population, and will do anything in it’s power to release all hostages and eliminate the Hamas terrorist organization, a racist and antisemitic terrorist organization that calls in its Convention for the destruction of the State of Israel and the murder of Jews.
If people here do honestly want see them all and not commit pikachu surprised.gif then yes, I won't secondguess myself in sharing them.
posted by cendawanita at 6:15 PM on January 11 [10 favorites]
Like adrienneleigh, the barrage of news and accounts were too overwhelming for me to share regularly here, but unfortunately the mentions brought up were all that I've seen shared elsewhere before. Speaking only for myself, the overwhelm wasn't the volume but also the need to present them 'properly'. Others have commented generally on how mefi leans reflexively sympathetic to the rhetorical position that a criticism of Israel is equivalent to antisemitism and I've seen how earlier shares of bad behaviour generated clear distress and upset and a sense of being attacked by mefites of jewish background and i couldn't find it in me to argue and see tangents of collective soothing at every instance of genocidal language shared, of which there are many so I kept at the drier western-led reporting, which was convenient in presenting a more civil situation even though that's not been the case. I'm sure these threads have caused many to assume that I and the few others who were sharing before being faced with distress must be thought of as antisemites.
Incidentally, the Israeli response through official channels and spokespeople after South Africa's turn yesterday was to declare the country and the legal team Hamas sympathizers*. In any case, the poor coverage by Western media yesterday I assume will improve today as it will be Israel's turn.
*sample - a qt from Alonso Gurmendi
In this mind-boggling rant of a press release, the Israeli MFA libels Adila Hassim, Tembeka Ngcukaitobi, John Dugard, Blinne ni Ghrálaigh, Max du Plessis, and Vaughan Lowe, calling them Hamas' representatives seeking to enable war crimes. This is unserious and frankly delusional
The tweet quoted:
Today we were witness to one of the greatest shows of hypocrisy in history, compounded by a series of false and baseless claims.
South Africa, which is functioning as the legal arm of the Hamas terrorist organization, utterly distorted the reality in Gaza following the October 7 massacre and completely ignored the fact that Hamas terrorists infiltrated Israel, murdered, executed, massacred, raped and abducted Israeli citizens, simply because they were Israelis, in an attempt to carry out genocide.
South Africa seeks to allow Hamas to return to commit the war crimes, crimes against humanity and sexual crimes they committed repeatedly on October 7, as its leaders have stated.
Hamas’ representatives in the Court, the South African lawyers, are also ignoring the fact that Hamas uses the civilian population in Gaza as human shields and operates from within hospitals, schools, UN shelters, mosques and churches with the intention of endangering the lives of the residents of the Gaza Strip.
136 hostages are being held in Hamas captivity, denied access to Red Cross representatives and medical care.
The State of Israel will continue to protect its citizens in accordance with international law, while distinguishing between Hamas terrorists and the civilian population, and will do anything in it’s power to release all hostages and eliminate the Hamas terrorist organization, a racist and antisemitic terrorist organization that calls in its Convention for the destruction of the State of Israel and the murder of Jews.
If people here do honestly want see them all and not commit pikachu surprised.gif then yes, I won't secondguess myself in sharing them.
posted by cendawanita at 6:15 PM on January 11 [10 favorites]
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff i've avoided sharing or commenting on because i don't want to get yelled at by the usual suspects in here. Especially since i just rejoined MeFi after a long absence and i'm conscious that i don't really fit in this space in a lot of ways.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:16 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:16 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
Err my intent wasn’t to say that I only was using mefi for news on this subject or that I expected it to be comprehensive (and thus a criticism of the folks posting here for failing). Just that I felt like mefi threads have had a LOT of information (as have other news sources) and yet still there was much that I missed. This was me attempting to express how compelling this section of the filing is: that they had so many examples to cite that even someone who feels they’ve been well informed (relative to likely most US residents) also found new items.
posted by R343L at 6:45 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
posted by R343L at 6:45 PM on January 11 [3 favorites]
Most informative to me so far has been the section attempting to establish intent.
Same here. I believe Adam' link to Craig Murray conveys this well. The observation that the Israeli delegation acted as though they were not listening is very astute.
posted by clavdivs at 6:56 PM on January 11 [1 favorite]
Same here. I believe Adam' link to Craig Murray conveys this well. The observation that the Israeli delegation acted as though they were not listening is very astute.
posted by clavdivs at 6:56 PM on January 11 [1 favorite]
From Craig Murray's post, that I want to foreground, in expectation of today's session and the lack of western coverage for yesterday:
South Africa@s case was founded on respect for international law and was based on law and on fact. They had taken the decision not to show the court atrocity videos and photos, of which there were many thousands. Their case was of law and fact, they did not need to introduce shock and emotion and turn the court into a theatre.
This was a shrewd blow by Du Plessis. The hearings were originally scheduled for two hours each side. The South Africans had been told, very late, that was increased to three because the Israelis insist on showing their hour long October 7 atrocity video. But in fact the court’s guidelines reflect a longstanding resistance to this sort of material which must be used “sparsely”. If 23,000 people are dead it does not add intellectual force to show the bodies, and the same is true of the 1,000 dead from 7 October.
I fully anticipate context-free or light reports that emphasizes the horror covered in the video with little mention why SA didn't pursue the same. Happy to be proven wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
South Africa@s case was founded on respect for international law and was based on law and on fact. They had taken the decision not to show the court atrocity videos and photos, of which there were many thousands. Their case was of law and fact, they did not need to introduce shock and emotion and turn the court into a theatre.
This was a shrewd blow by Du Plessis. The hearings were originally scheduled for two hours each side. The South Africans had been told, very late, that was increased to three because the Israelis insist on showing their hour long October 7 atrocity video. But in fact the court’s guidelines reflect a longstanding resistance to this sort of material which must be used “sparsely”. If 23,000 people are dead it does not add intellectual force to show the bodies, and the same is true of the 1,000 dead from 7 October.
I fully anticipate context-free or light reports that emphasizes the horror covered in the video with little mention why SA didn't pursue the same. Happy to be proven wrong.
posted by cendawanita at 7:21 PM on January 11 [4 favorites]
The airstrikes on Yemen are absolutely monstrous. The US empire doesn't have the dead babies excuse this time; Ansarallah's blockade hasn't killed a single person. Our governments only care about money.
The only surprising part is that it took this long before there was any bombing. Impeding key shipping routes is probably the single most reliable way to provoke a military response from the large naval powers. It's been that way for hundreds of years, this isn't new. The Houthis seem confident that they are sufficiently decentralized to not worry about bombing/missile attacks, which is probably true since that worked for them in the war with the Saudis.
Personally, I have the same concern as when the Israelis started their attacks after 10/7: if your opponent is trying to provoke a specific reaction, the smart move is to really think things through rather than jump right in. The Houthis have been openly courting this, which makes me concerned when they are given what they have been asking for. They certainly aren't stupid.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:31 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
The only surprising part is that it took this long before there was any bombing. Impeding key shipping routes is probably the single most reliable way to provoke a military response from the large naval powers. It's been that way for hundreds of years, this isn't new. The Houthis seem confident that they are sufficiently decentralized to not worry about bombing/missile attacks, which is probably true since that worked for them in the war with the Saudis.
Personally, I have the same concern as when the Israelis started their attacks after 10/7: if your opponent is trying to provoke a specific reaction, the smart move is to really think things through rather than jump right in. The Houthis have been openly courting this, which makes me concerned when they are given what they have been asking for. They certainly aren't stupid.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:31 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
The Houthis are in no manner being smart. Like so many before, they totally underestimate the will of the U.S. to wreck them. The U.S. isn't always long-term smart when it goes to work, but that doesn't make Saddam and his sons or the Al Qaeda or Isis leadership or Kaddafi any less dead.
posted by MattD at 8:02 PM on January 11
posted by MattD at 8:02 PM on January 11
CENTCOM on X
"On Jan. 11 at 2:30 a.m. (Sanaa time), U.S. Central Command forces, in coordination with the United Kingdom, and support from Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, and Bahrain conducted joint strikes on Houthi targets to degrade their capability to continue their illegal and reckless attacks on U.S. and international vessels and commercial shipping in the Red Sea. This multinational action targeted radar systems, air defense systems, and storage and launch sites for one way attack unmanned aerial systems, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles...."
posted by clavdivs at 8:39 PM on January 11
"On Jan. 11 at 2:30 a.m. (Sanaa time), U.S. Central Command forces, in coordination with the United Kingdom, and support from Australia, Canada, the Netherlands, and Bahrain conducted joint strikes on Houthi targets to degrade their capability to continue their illegal and reckless attacks on U.S. and international vessels and commercial shipping in the Red Sea. This multinational action targeted radar systems, air defense systems, and storage and launch sites for one way attack unmanned aerial systems, cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles...."
posted by clavdivs at 8:39 PM on January 11
JPost claims (breaking news so this is all there is to it):
Echoes of explosions were heard in the capital Sana'a, the attack was attributed to Israel
--According to reports in Yemen, explosions were heard in the capital Sana'a in the last hour. The attack was attributed to Israel.
----
The Houthis are in no manner being smart. Like so many before, they totally underestimate the will of the U.S. to wreck them. The U.S. isn't always long-term smart when it goes to work, but that doesn't make Saddam and his sons or the Al Qaeda or Isis leadership or Kaddafi any less dead.
This assumes a similar set of material conditions or ideological even psychological position. The US has not successfully achieved its military objectives in their long-term engagements as a solo party since Vietnam and as part of a coalition in a post-9/11 world. Further, this doesn't end with the death of a key leadership as it's not so much about taking out an autocratic leader either. What's the objectives here? What is the current landscape of military technology? How about civilian ones? Who else would like to join this coalition of the willing? Want to bet the terms of support are specifically curtailed? Further, Yemen is, unlike Russia or even Iraq under Saddam, is already on the ropes economically.
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
Echoes of explosions were heard in the capital Sana'a, the attack was attributed to Israel
--According to reports in Yemen, explosions were heard in the capital Sana'a in the last hour. The attack was attributed to Israel.
----
The Houthis are in no manner being smart. Like so many before, they totally underestimate the will of the U.S. to wreck them. The U.S. isn't always long-term smart when it goes to work, but that doesn't make Saddam and his sons or the Al Qaeda or Isis leadership or Kaddafi any less dead.
This assumes a similar set of material conditions or ideological even psychological position. The US has not successfully achieved its military objectives in their long-term engagements as a solo party since Vietnam and as part of a coalition in a post-9/11 world. Further, this doesn't end with the death of a key leadership as it's not so much about taking out an autocratic leader either. What's the objectives here? What is the current landscape of military technology? How about civilian ones? Who else would like to join this coalition of the willing? Want to bet the terms of support are specifically curtailed? Further, Yemen is, unlike Russia or even Iraq under Saddam, is already on the ropes economically.
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on January 11 [5 favorites]
they would absolutely have the right under international law to restrict Israeli-linked commerce. (The Bab-el-Mandeb strait is under the sovereignty of Yemen and Djibouti! It is unequivocally territorial waters!)
Based on UNCLOS this doesn't seem to be the case, happy to be corrected if someone thinks otherwise -
A coastal state only has full jurisdiction over Internal Waters, which are internal bays, rivers and lakes, and (potentially) include waters up to islands under their control. In the case of Yemen, in the most generous interpretation possible, this would include anything immediately to the east of the Hanish Islands and Zubair Group. We can say that Yemen has full sovereignty over internal waters and are allowed to prevent so called "innocent passage" through these waters.
The Territorial Sea extends 22km outwards from these internal waters. The territorial sea is sovereign territory, however under UNCLOS foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits. So, in Yemen's case, anything to the west of Hanish Islands and Zubair Group is fair game for the movement of civilian and military ships. That is where those ships have been transiting, and where they have been attacked. Financially, no captain would be dumb enough to deliberately violate the laws of the sea, it would invalidate any insurance they had...
As a side note - claiming an island doesn't mean you automatically get to claim the entire body of water between it and your mainland as internal waters - otherwise the US could have total jurisdiction over a huge portion of the Pacific Ocean simply due to Hawaii. But we'll allow it in this case for Yemen.
posted by xdvesper at 9:10 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
Based on UNCLOS this doesn't seem to be the case, happy to be corrected if someone thinks otherwise -
A coastal state only has full jurisdiction over Internal Waters, which are internal bays, rivers and lakes, and (potentially) include waters up to islands under their control. In the case of Yemen, in the most generous interpretation possible, this would include anything immediately to the east of the Hanish Islands and Zubair Group. We can say that Yemen has full sovereignty over internal waters and are allowed to prevent so called "innocent passage" through these waters.
The Territorial Sea extends 22km outwards from these internal waters. The territorial sea is sovereign territory, however under UNCLOS foreign ships (military and civilian) are allowed innocent passage through it, or transit passage for straits. So, in Yemen's case, anything to the west of Hanish Islands and Zubair Group is fair game for the movement of civilian and military ships. That is where those ships have been transiting, and where they have been attacked. Financially, no captain would be dumb enough to deliberately violate the laws of the sea, it would invalidate any insurance they had...
As a side note - claiming an island doesn't mean you automatically get to claim the entire body of water between it and your mainland as internal waters - otherwise the US could have total jurisdiction over a huge portion of the Pacific Ocean simply due to Hawaii. But we'll allow it in this case for Yemen.
posted by xdvesper at 9:10 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
The US has not successfully achieved its military objectives in their long-term engagements as a solo party since Vietnam
Slight problem with the statement. The war was fought between North Vietnam and South Vietnam. America's military objectives were not met and the war created wide spread dissent at home. Also, America was not alone in supporting South Vietnam. Cambodia fell shortly after that falling into genocide. Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979 and China invaded Vietnam in 1979. though I will say the reconciliation if one wants to call it that between Vietnam and the United States has been quite remarkable.
posted by clavdivs at 9:35 PM on January 11
Slight problem with the statement. The war was fought between North Vietnam and South Vietnam. America's military objectives were not met and the war created wide spread dissent at home. Also, America was not alone in supporting South Vietnam. Cambodia fell shortly after that falling into genocide. Vietnam invaded Cambodia in 1979 and China invaded Vietnam in 1979. though I will say the reconciliation if one wants to call it that between Vietnam and the United States has been quite remarkable.
posted by clavdivs at 9:35 PM on January 11
You're correct. I was more thinking about actual military support with materiel, at the risk of understating the Cambodian (eta: and China!) input.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
Andddd I also realized my phrasing is unclear- absolutely, I share your point that the US did not achieve their objectives in Vietnam, which was what I meant, but english grammar got away from me.
posted by cendawanita at 9:40 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:40 PM on January 11 [2 favorites]
Personally I understand this as "cope", but i got this via David Grossman & Nathan Tankus - Fania Oz-Salzberger, I believe, is part of those described as the Israeli left, so take that as you will.
As the author of ‘Jews and Words’, a book that celebrates the Jewish culture of debate and textuality, I must spell out something that the book didn’t mention, a negative aspect of our talkative legacy.
You may not like it, but here it is.
This morning’s proceedings in The Hague focus on genocidical talk in the Israeli public sphere. There are dozens of examples: ministers, Knesset members, influencers. Even the manipulative Netanyahu mentioned Amalek, the ancient people that the Bible singled out for eradication. Never mind that great rabbis have determined long ago that Amalek is obsolete, and the biblical verdict does not apply to any existing nation.
What stands on trial today is the ancient Jewish habit of speaking to each other as if no one else is listening. The Jewish habit of making extreme statements irresponsibly, unthoughtfully, without expecting any payback.
For so many centuries we have exercised a wild freedom of speech among ourselves, in our own languages, relying on our own argumentative balance mechanism: extremism and moderation may clash, and moderation usually triumphs. The House of Shammai is legitimate, but the House of Hillel, the moderates, usually wins.
Israeli verbal culture inherited this freedom. But Israel is also a liberal democracy and member of the global community. Most of the loudmouths crying Genocide and Amalek are not aware of the profound dissonance, the huge damage, the justified outrage. Some don’t care.
Only a small minority wants actual genocide in Gaza and are morally crippled enough to carry it through: the extreme national-religious right.
The fact that Netanyahu allowed these thugs into his government and echoes their discourse is an eternal blot on Jewish history.
Our disputative, wordy culture deserves to be celebrated, but it must denounce its dangerous outcrop of inciters to blind violence. Their Amalekite speech has become too viable to bear. Too doable.
No, Israel is not conducting genocide. But its ongoing rant about “flattening Gaza” is no longer a quaint side effect of our argumentative heritage.
It is a crime, a travesty and a harrowing blow to the best of Jewish traditions.
Israel’s oral submission at the Hague will start in a few minutes (or maybe later by 15 mins just like yesterday) at the same link as above.
posted by cendawanita at 12:33 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
As the author of ‘Jews and Words’, a book that celebrates the Jewish culture of debate and textuality, I must spell out something that the book didn’t mention, a negative aspect of our talkative legacy.
You may not like it, but here it is.
This morning’s proceedings in The Hague focus on genocidical talk in the Israeli public sphere. There are dozens of examples: ministers, Knesset members, influencers. Even the manipulative Netanyahu mentioned Amalek, the ancient people that the Bible singled out for eradication. Never mind that great rabbis have determined long ago that Amalek is obsolete, and the biblical verdict does not apply to any existing nation.
What stands on trial today is the ancient Jewish habit of speaking to each other as if no one else is listening. The Jewish habit of making extreme statements irresponsibly, unthoughtfully, without expecting any payback.
For so many centuries we have exercised a wild freedom of speech among ourselves, in our own languages, relying on our own argumentative balance mechanism: extremism and moderation may clash, and moderation usually triumphs. The House of Shammai is legitimate, but the House of Hillel, the moderates, usually wins.
Israeli verbal culture inherited this freedom. But Israel is also a liberal democracy and member of the global community. Most of the loudmouths crying Genocide and Amalek are not aware of the profound dissonance, the huge damage, the justified outrage. Some don’t care.
Only a small minority wants actual genocide in Gaza and are morally crippled enough to carry it through: the extreme national-religious right.
The fact that Netanyahu allowed these thugs into his government and echoes their discourse is an eternal blot on Jewish history.
Our disputative, wordy culture deserves to be celebrated, but it must denounce its dangerous outcrop of inciters to blind violence. Their Amalekite speech has become too viable to bear. Too doable.
No, Israel is not conducting genocide. But its ongoing rant about “flattening Gaza” is no longer a quaint side effect of our argumentative heritage.
It is a crime, a travesty and a harrowing blow to the best of Jewish traditions.
Israel’s oral submission at the Hague will start in a few minutes (or maybe later by 15 mins just like yesterday) at the same link as above.
posted by cendawanita at 12:33 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
The official ICJ stream of Israel's oral argument is live. (Though the proceedings have not actually started as I'm posting this.)
posted by bcd at 12:52 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 12:52 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Only a small minority wants actual genocide in Gaza and are morally crippled enough to carry it through: the extreme national-religious right.
The fact that Netanyahu allowed these thugs into his government and echoes their discourse is an eternal blot on Jewish history.
This annoyed me so much. Netanyahu has not "allowed" them into his government, he is not "echoing" their rhetoric. He is one of them, the rhetoric is his own.
I do not understand this desire to cast Netanyahu as on some level the victim of the Israeli extreme right, a force outside of himself. This isn't some fundamentally decent guy who got elected, then hoodwinked. He is a far right monster, doing and saying exactly what you would expect.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 AM on January 12 [19 favorites]
The fact that Netanyahu allowed these thugs into his government and echoes their discourse is an eternal blot on Jewish history.
This annoyed me so much. Netanyahu has not "allowed" them into his government, he is not "echoing" their rhetoric. He is one of them, the rhetoric is his own.
I do not understand this desire to cast Netanyahu as on some level the victim of the Israeli extreme right, a force outside of himself. This isn't some fundamentally decent guy who got elected, then hoodwinked. He is a far right monster, doing and saying exactly what you would expect.
posted by Dysk at 12:58 AM on January 12 [19 favorites]
I say this as someone who also codeswitches to an atlantic anglophone accent in English: am I really going to spend the next hours listening to "khamas" when every other native word are either pronounced decently or according to the anglophone manner?
posted by cendawanita at 1:27 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:27 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Apologies that i didn't do similar yesterday, for those who can't watch:
- this Al-Jazeera liveblog
- Juliette McIntyre livetweeting (nitter copy)
posted by cendawanita at 2:16 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
- this Al-Jazeera liveblog
- Juliette McIntyre livetweeting (nitter copy)
posted by cendawanita at 2:16 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Malcolm Shaw has been speaking for Israel for a while. I'm going to ignore the bullshit he's spewing content-wise and just comment on the medium being the message here.
Twice, he's lost his place and loudly complained that someone else must have rearranged his papers. This is darkly funny - it can't possibly be anything he did, probably a sneaky Hamas agent.
posted by bcd at 2:29 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Twice, he's lost his place and loudly complained that someone else must have rearranged his papers. This is darkly funny - it can't possibly be anything he did, probably a sneaky Hamas agent.
posted by bcd at 2:29 AM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Re: Yemen, you can't make this up:
From an official in the US-backed "legitimate Yemeni government"posted by kmt at 2:49 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
"Despite our great rivalry with the Houthis, we will not accept American or British military intervention in our country." (@Aldanmarki on Twittter)
Listen, i had only placed bets on 2024 being the Irish Reunification Year.
posted by cendawanita at 3:03 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:03 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
Far from the first time hatred of the US or it's military was the hand clasp between two warring group biceps in the epic predator handshake meme.
extremism and moderation may clash, and moderation usually triumphs.
The whole thread reads like 'We are used to saying the quiet part out loud but it is ok because usually the less intolerant prevails'. Which ... okay? But what happens when they don't? Because apparently tens of thousands of people Israelis have been subjugating for their entire lives die and that's not a good look regardless of how free the speech.
posted by Mitheral at 4:37 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
extremism and moderation may clash, and moderation usually triumphs.
The whole thread reads like 'We are used to saying the quiet part out loud but it is ok because usually the less intolerant prevails'. Which ... okay? But what happens when they don't? Because apparently tens of thousands of people Israelis have been subjugating for their entire lives die and that's not a good look regardless of how free the speech.
posted by Mitheral at 4:37 AM on January 12 [4 favorites]
I'm so fucking tired. What does the Democratic administration think they're getting out of all of this? What's the strategy here? Is Bibi just a fucking millstone that we just happen to have because we're governing? Cut him fucking loose.
It's not the 1990s anymore. We're not all using the three networks for news which gets thoroughly sanitized into easily digestible good vs evil narratives that the country can swallow as being part and parcel to 20:1 revenge slaughters. Gen Z is literally watching people in Gaza live on TikTok because that's the world now. They can only see what's happening to a people who, by and large, don't fucking deserve the shit sandwich that's being served to them meanwhile Biden and Blinken are running cover to make sure the IDF stuffs as many proverbial shit sandwiches down their throat of the Palestinian civilian population. What are they supposed to think?
Us Millennials have been through this routine before. It probably calcified a lot of us against ever voting Republican because of foreign policy. And we know how bad that can get because we've literally lived through it. A trillion fucking dollars we'll never get to spend making people's lives better. Untold number of lives destroyed abroad. I/P right now? That's US imperialism FUCKING RESTRAINED and I hate that I even had to write that down. But it's going to calcify a lot of Gen Z if the admin don't pull their heads out of their ass. We finally got the kids fucking voting again and we're going to lose them just as quickly and for what? They don't even tell us. What the fuck is so important about unilaterally supporting Israel in their leveling of Gaza that we need to put the Democratic Party's reputation and, subsequently, the whole fucking Republic at risk this year?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:37 AM on January 12 [14 favorites]
It's not the 1990s anymore. We're not all using the three networks for news which gets thoroughly sanitized into easily digestible good vs evil narratives that the country can swallow as being part and parcel to 20:1 revenge slaughters. Gen Z is literally watching people in Gaza live on TikTok because that's the world now. They can only see what's happening to a people who, by and large, don't fucking deserve the shit sandwich that's being served to them meanwhile Biden and Blinken are running cover to make sure the IDF stuffs as many proverbial shit sandwiches down their throat of the Palestinian civilian population. What are they supposed to think?
Us Millennials have been through this routine before. It probably calcified a lot of us against ever voting Republican because of foreign policy. And we know how bad that can get because we've literally lived through it. A trillion fucking dollars we'll never get to spend making people's lives better. Untold number of lives destroyed abroad. I/P right now? That's US imperialism FUCKING RESTRAINED and I hate that I even had to write that down. But it's going to calcify a lot of Gen Z if the admin don't pull their heads out of their ass. We finally got the kids fucking voting again and we're going to lose them just as quickly and for what? They don't even tell us. What the fuck is so important about unilaterally supporting Israel in their leveling of Gaza that we need to put the Democratic Party's reputation and, subsequently, the whole fucking Republic at risk this year?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:37 AM on January 12 [14 favorites]
I was really mad about that quote about how you can’t take literally the genocidal statements that South Africa cites in their argument because it’s in-group extreme language and the more moderate ideas will win. Which is just absurd because heads of nations and elected officials are also talking to the world and they know it and I have no obligation to not take their statements as literal intent. But then I opened the link which is a nitter mirror and the author basically claims in a reply that if “we” wanted to commit genocide the would have done it by Oct 8th so what’s happened since is apparently in their mind the moderates winning the argument. Gross.
posted by R343L at 6:53 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 6:53 AM on January 12 [7 favorites]
We are used to saying the quiet part out loud but it is ok because usually the less intolerant prevails
I can see that happening in conversations, but officials in front of reporters? On the PBS Newshour last night, they interviewed two law professors about the South Africans' 'genocide' case before the ICJ. The second professor, from a prominent Israeli university, tried to downplay the genocide-friendly comments from some officials and politicians as just heated rhetoric, and anyway it's not like those commenters were directing the IDF... It's a pretty weak argument. Those public comments weren't directives; they're symptoms.
I can believe that the majority of Israelis are not actually for the elimination of Palestinians. At the same time, there's fatigue over the perennial I/P issue, no appetite for the two-state solution, and who would mind if the problem just got up and left? With the US in their corner, Israel has little to fear from international condemnation. Yes I'm pretty cynical about what's happening, and likely to happen.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:13 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
I can see that happening in conversations, but officials in front of reporters? On the PBS Newshour last night, they interviewed two law professors about the South Africans' 'genocide' case before the ICJ. The second professor, from a prominent Israeli university, tried to downplay the genocide-friendly comments from some officials and politicians as just heated rhetoric, and anyway it's not like those commenters were directing the IDF... It's a pretty weak argument. Those public comments weren't directives; they're symptoms.
I can believe that the majority of Israelis are not actually for the elimination of Palestinians. At the same time, there's fatigue over the perennial I/P issue, no appetite for the two-state solution, and who would mind if the problem just got up and left? With the US in their corner, Israel has little to fear from international condemnation. Yes I'm pretty cynical about what's happening, and likely to happen.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:13 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
Obviously anyone can make up a bio but the author claims to be a professor at the University of Haifa. Her book does exist (published by Yale University Press) and fairly high ranking in some categories on Amazon. So I guess I would take this entire post as an example of civil society in Israel calling for or supporting genocidal ideas and excuse making for it, which is not surprising — see how much of the public discourse went in the US during the run up to the post-9/11 Iraq war — but it’s still sad. :(
posted by R343L at 7:13 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
posted by R343L at 7:13 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
It doesn't matter if it's public or not; if you're in a position of power you cannot feel that you're allowed to articulate genocidal ideas at all. "My real opinion is that we should commit the vilest and most inhumane torture of civilians, but that isn't going to happen, lol" should never be something someone feels comfortable saying. If they feel comfortable saying it, everything is already a disaster.
This whole thing is just a nightmare. The trouble is, all my life I've said and believed that the US was perfectly willing to kill people for oil and commerce, because obviously we've done that all over the place. It feels even worse when our government is confident that they can go mask-off.
I guess there's some slim hope that this the start of the end - that corruption will corrupt itself and in fifteen or twenty years, after internal collapse and conflict, something better will emerge. If there's any functional ecosystem remaining, of course. But right now it just feels like "we're going to kill these people because it's convenient, and bear in mind that we're probably going to kill more inconvenient people as conditions worsen".
It really is that "there is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success." I've been to demos and so on and it does feel like they are so, so incommensurate with the wrong being done.
posted by Frowner at 7:23 AM on January 12 [10 favorites]
This whole thing is just a nightmare. The trouble is, all my life I've said and believed that the US was perfectly willing to kill people for oil and commerce, because obviously we've done that all over the place. It feels even worse when our government is confident that they can go mask-off.
I guess there's some slim hope that this the start of the end - that corruption will corrupt itself and in fifteen or twenty years, after internal collapse and conflict, something better will emerge. If there's any functional ecosystem remaining, of course. But right now it just feels like "we're going to kill these people because it's convenient, and bear in mind that we're probably going to kill more inconvenient people as conditions worsen".
It really is that "there is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation. There is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolize. There is a failure here that topples all our success." I've been to demos and so on and it does feel like they are so, so incommensurate with the wrong being done.
posted by Frowner at 7:23 AM on January 12 [10 favorites]
xdvesper: whoops, you are correct, i confused territorial waters with internal waters. So what Ansarallah is doing is in fact morally correct but legally maybe not. (The obligation to intervene in genocide complicates the legal analysis, i think.)
The US & UK bombing Yemen is still a bad response though! Even the Saudis are unhappy about it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:39 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
The US & UK bombing Yemen is still a bad response though! Even the Saudis are unhappy about it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:39 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Even the Saudis are unhappy about it!
Even the legitimate Yemeni government backed by the US and the UK are unhappy about it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:47 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Even the legitimate Yemeni government backed by the US and the UK are unhappy about it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:47 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
What does the Democratic administration think they're getting out of all of this? What's the strategy here?
Let's say you are a Dem politician who is very passionate about something like climate change. You think to yourself, "well, I can't make any positive policy if I am not in Congress, and I won't keep my seat without AIPAC money." Or, "I won't keep my seat if AIPAC-affiliated groups run a primary candidate against me." Or, "I can't get committee seats if I piss off the donors of Congressional leaders." Or "I will lose the trust of my district if I get smeared in the news for being a terrorist."
Or if you a young woman of color in Congress you might regularly get death threats that reference your use of the word "genocide." Reps like Ilhan Omar need to pay for their own security depending on the mood of Capitol security.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:47 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
Let's say you are a Dem politician who is very passionate about something like climate change. You think to yourself, "well, I can't make any positive policy if I am not in Congress, and I won't keep my seat without AIPAC money." Or, "I won't keep my seat if AIPAC-affiliated groups run a primary candidate against me." Or, "I can't get committee seats if I piss off the donors of Congressional leaders." Or "I will lose the trust of my district if I get smeared in the news for being a terrorist."
Or if you a young woman of color in Congress you might regularly get death threats that reference your use of the word "genocide." Reps like Ilhan Omar need to pay for their own security depending on the mood of Capitol security.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:47 AM on January 12 [2 favorites]
I think we underestimate how much the state of Israel represents to many US people, especially older ones, this idea that the US did the right thing in WW2 and by proxy Israel is proof that we are moral actors in the world. Israel cannot be criticized because to admit the government of Israel can do wrong is to admit the US does wrong things. For many folks that is a hard thing to swallow. It’s not all venal need to get re-elected or real politik about the US dominant international order but also a sense of identity as righteous actors. So while I’m sure a lot of it is cold calculation about re-election, I think we forgot that most people in Congress are just people who self-justify and have self-images related to why they want to be elected officials and stay there. Most of them believe they are doing good and right things most of the time — or want to believe they are trying to.
posted by R343L at 7:54 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
posted by R343L at 7:54 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
It’s not all venal need to get re-elected or real politik about the US dominant international order but also a sense of identity as righteous actors.
i.e. what's not venality is stupidity or meaningless vanity or both
posted by busted_crayons at 8:28 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
i.e. what's not venality is stupidity or meaningless vanity or both
posted by busted_crayons at 8:28 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
The implication that Democrats are somehow being tricked or intimidated into supporting Israel is pretty off-base. Biden and most Democratic officeholders in DC have been committed Zionists for the whole of their political careers. They would rather lose their seats -- and in rare cases like Elliot Engel have actually lost their seats -- before compromising on the issue of Israel. They are at least as committed to Israel as they are to any other contested issue on which Democrats are overwhelmingly of the same view - abortion choice, affirmative action, public education spending, climate change, etc. They get money and other support from private sector donors who feel the same about Israel not as a payoff but as a recognition of common cause.
posted by MattD at 8:34 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:34 AM on January 12 [5 favorites]
That's not true of all of Congress though. John Fetterman and Maxwell Frost are two examples. Fetterman didn't have an opinion on P/I either way until being approached by PACs. Frost was actually a pro-BDS activist until he was running for Congress and may not have won his seat without AIPAC support. Now that he's in his seat he has thankfully supported a ceasefire, reverting back to his earlier stance. Fetterman has not.
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:04 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
posted by tofu_crouton at 9:04 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
I can believe that the majority of Israelis are not actually for the elimination of Palestinians. At the same time, there's fatigue over the perennial I/P issue, no appetite for the two-state solution, and who would mind if the problem just got up and left? With the US in their corner, Israel has little to fear from international condemnation. Yes I'm pretty cynical about what's happening, and likely to happen.
At the most primal level, citizens of Israel and citizens of Gaza share a common goal -- "We would really like to go about our day without a constant worry that someone may be trying to kill us." A side order of "We would like vengeance upon the people who ARE trying to kill us" also fits the model.
In a vacuum, the average Israeli is likely not sufficiently gung-ho as to desire outright Gazan genocide. I have precisely that much remaining faith in the world and in humanity, that everyday Israelis would not simply say "yes, kill them and kill their kids and level their neighborhoods and bomb their hospitals and make their land uninhabitable. Drive them all into the sea."
But we are not in a vacuum. The fear of random death does hang over the region on both sides of the border, as it has for a very long time. Israelis have 10/7 still fresh in their minds, and what they are hearing from Bibi & company is not "We are genociding Gaza, intentionally and punitively, in your name,," but rather, "We are doing the one thing that we can to remove that fear of random death from you, permanently."
And it is easy for some to hear that and reply, "Good, thank you, do that," and not pause to consider the actual mechanics and impact of that one thing.
posted by delfin at 9:28 AM on January 12 [10 favorites]
At the most primal level, citizens of Israel and citizens of Gaza share a common goal -- "We would really like to go about our day without a constant worry that someone may be trying to kill us." A side order of "We would like vengeance upon the people who ARE trying to kill us" also fits the model.
In a vacuum, the average Israeli is likely not sufficiently gung-ho as to desire outright Gazan genocide. I have precisely that much remaining faith in the world and in humanity, that everyday Israelis would not simply say "yes, kill them and kill their kids and level their neighborhoods and bomb their hospitals and make their land uninhabitable. Drive them all into the sea."
But we are not in a vacuum. The fear of random death does hang over the region on both sides of the border, as it has for a very long time. Israelis have 10/7 still fresh in their minds, and what they are hearing from Bibi & company is not "We are genociding Gaza, intentionally and punitively, in your name,," but rather, "We are doing the one thing that we can to remove that fear of random death from you, permanently."
And it is easy for some to hear that and reply, "Good, thank you, do that," and not pause to consider the actual mechanics and impact of that one thing.
posted by delfin at 9:28 AM on January 12 [10 favorites]
From Jehad Abusalim, I learned: Germany, with its rich history in genocide expertise, will now join as a third party at the International Court of Justice, backing Israel and arguing that "there is no basis for the accusations."
The official announcement in German: Erklärung der Bundesregierung zur Verhandlung am Internationalen Gerichtshof
posted by cendawanita at 10:02 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
The official announcement in German: Erklärung der Bundesregierung zur Verhandlung am Internationalen Gerichtshof
posted by cendawanita at 10:02 AM on January 12 [1 favorite]
I'm not Jewish, but if I was I think I'd probably be pretty annoyed with Fania Oz-Salzberger for basically arguing that Judaism's long history and culture is just 4chan without the memes.
Less humorously, I'll point out that far from winning, the "moderates" are losing. As they always do in a *chan type environment. The Israeli right grows ever stronger, the moderates have been out of power since forever, women are still being assaulted and denied service on busses, and Israel's rhetoric about genocide has started turning into actual genocide despite her laughable claim that genocide only exists if you kill everyone in a single day (which, I must point out, would define what Hitler did as not genocide).
Clearly that "wordy" *chan style culture isn't actually producing moderation, much less extreme leftism. It seems that only the most extreme right benefits from it, so perhaps rather than celebrating that aspect of culture it might be better to change it?
posted by sotonohito at 11:15 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
Less humorously, I'll point out that far from winning, the "moderates" are losing. As they always do in a *chan type environment. The Israeli right grows ever stronger, the moderates have been out of power since forever, women are still being assaulted and denied service on busses, and Israel's rhetoric about genocide has started turning into actual genocide despite her laughable claim that genocide only exists if you kill everyone in a single day (which, I must point out, would define what Hitler did as not genocide).
Clearly that "wordy" *chan style culture isn't actually producing moderation, much less extreme leftism. It seems that only the most extreme right benefits from it, so perhaps rather than celebrating that aspect of culture it might be better to change it?
posted by sotonohito at 11:15 AM on January 12 [6 favorites]
Victimhood should not be a condition for Palestine solidarity(MondoWeiss opinion piece)
Some of Palestine’s allies seem more comfortable with Palestinians as victims of Israel’s colonial rule than agents of their own liberation. Palestinians need support when they fight, not only when they die.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:31 PM on January 12 [2 favorites]
Yesterday's closing at ICHR the final section by Irish lawyer Blinne Ní Ghrâlaigh KC. Just facts.
Listen and weep.
posted by adamvasco at 4:40 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
Listen and weep.
posted by adamvasco at 4:40 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
US military strikes another Houthi-controlled site after warning ships to avoid parts of Red Sea.
posted by clavdivs at 6:15 PM on January 12
posted by clavdivs at 6:15 PM on January 12
The US prefers to bomb the most destitute country in the Middle East (which we have been helping the Saudis bomb for a goddamn decade already!) rather than make Israel stop committing a genocide. And i really, really hope there's a tipping point in here somewhere.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:43 PM on January 12 [8 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:43 PM on January 12 [8 favorites]
Per UNICEF, a child needs a leg or arm amputated in Gaza every 106mins, about 40mins less than the avg film runtime. So imagine every time you sit down to watch a movie 1.38 children have to have an arm or leg cut off, often without anesthesia because Gaza ran out of that wks agoAdam Johnson on Twitter
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:50 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
So what Ansarallah is doing is in fact morally correct but legally maybe not. (The obligation to intervene in genocide complicates the legal analysis, i think.)
I think given their history they're likely just continuing to strike at Jews in whatever way they can. The Houthis follow Zaydism (one of the three branches of Shia Islam, exclusively found in Yemen) who have oppressed Jews for hundreds of years - eg the the Mawza Exile as well enacting extreme discriminatory laws against Jews.
The Jewish population in Yemen declined from about 60,000 in 1900 to around 1,500 in 2016, to literally 1 remaining today in jail, according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44. It notes that the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, blackmailing them by arbitrarily detaining religious leaders, influencers and community members.
Given the Houthis recently completed the total eradication of Jews from their land, I'm somewhat skeptical of their motives in launching ballistic missiles into Israel and attacking ships they claim are affiliated with Israel trying to cross the Suez.
posted by xdvesper at 9:23 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
I think given their history they're likely just continuing to strike at Jews in whatever way they can. The Houthis follow Zaydism (one of the three branches of Shia Islam, exclusively found in Yemen) who have oppressed Jews for hundreds of years - eg the the Mawza Exile as well enacting extreme discriminatory laws against Jews.
The Jewish population in Yemen declined from about 60,000 in 1900 to around 1,500 in 2016, to literally 1 remaining today in jail, according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44. It notes that the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, blackmailing them by arbitrarily detaining religious leaders, influencers and community members.
Given the Houthis recently completed the total eradication of Jews from their land, I'm somewhat skeptical of their motives in launching ballistic missiles into Israel and attacking ships they claim are affiliated with Israel trying to cross the Suez.
posted by xdvesper at 9:23 PM on January 12 [1 favorite]
Operation Magic carpet.
I think given their history they're likely just continuing to strike at Jews in whatever way they can.
it is in their slogan right after: Death to America.
posted by clavdivs at 10:19 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
I think given their history they're likely just continuing to strike at Jews in whatever way they can.
it is in their slogan right after: Death to America.
posted by clavdivs at 10:19 PM on January 12 [3 favorites]
In terms of history rhyming:
--according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44. It notes that the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, blackmailing them by arbitrarily detaining religious leaders, influencers and community member
- Stalin committed the Great Purge;
- the Soviets advancing along the Eastern Front also led to the liberation of prisoners in the concentration camps.
If I were alive in ww2, am I supposed to denounce the second following the first?
There have been historical harm, and currently being employed to anticipate possible harm. Okay. There is current and ongoing harm right now. Let's speak to each other as not just Southeast Asians, but also Malaysians - the racism of Americans towards their Japanese citizens and the general bias of the establishment for their European peers that contributed to the choice to drop the atomic bomb on two Japanese cities, how much would that have mattered to our grandparents?
------
Re: Houthis
- Israel naval blockade led to an actual loss of American life aboard the Mavi Marmara, a humanitarian aid ship, and that engendered no significant hard force reaction.
----
Operation Magic Carpet - in addition to the bare public facts reported in the wiki, try this article too: Operation Magic Carpet: Constructing the Myth of the Magical Immigration of Yemenite Jews to Israel by Esther Meir-Glitzenstein (if Jstor access is borked, try this thread for some screenshots):
In the following years “Operation Magic Carpet” was commemorated in the naming of streets and was praised in literature, poetry, historical research, and in the collective memory of Yemenite Immigrants in Israel, becoming one of the establishing images of the relationship between the state and its Mizrahi citizens. It presented these Jews as victims of persecutions by hostile Arab rule, victims who were sentenced to poverty and to social and cultural degeneration. According to this image, Israel was portrayed as a rescuer of these wretched Jews.
[...] The immigration of about 50,000 Yemenite Jews to Israel between December 1948 and late 1951 was one of the most complicated, dangerous, and glorious but also the most painful events in the history of aliya to the new
State of Israel.
In the summer of 1949 hundreds of people lost their lives en route to Israel and the vast majority of the survivors arrived in poor health. Many of them died in the routes of Yemen but hundreds died after leaving Yemen, in the territory of Aden. We have a list of 429 people who died in Hashed, the refugee camp in Aden, where they were supposed to find food and medical treatment after their long way in Yemen. We also know about 200–250 who
died near the borders of Yemen in September–October 1949, after they were not allowed to enter Aden. Most of the 30,000 immigrants who arrived in Israel between July and November 1949 suffered from hunger and diseases,
including 3,000 children who needed urgent hospitalization that the new state was not able to provide.
This catastrophe happened not in Yemen but in Aden, where the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC), in collaboration with the state of Israel, was supposed to take care of the tired and sick immigrants so that they arrived in Israel in good health. The causes for this catastrophe and the processes whereby a gradual, planned departure turned into a national disaster are beyond the purview of this article. However, by no means can this operation be considered a success or deemed a credit to the organizers.
Nevertheless, the aliya from Yemen is described as having brought relief and deliverance to Yemenite Jewry and it is also perceived as a daring, miraculous, even cosmic event in which the Yemenite Jews were rescued in the blink of an eye from a distressed country and taken by their saviors from a backwards, traditional society to a modern, progressive society.
What was the historical background of these events?—In the late 1940s, Yemen was a poor agricultural country that had not been reached by modernity, and Yemeni labor migrants, both Muslims and Jews, often sneaked into Aden in search of work. The country’s economy deteriorated in 1948 as a result of the assassination of the Imam Yahya, a coup d’état, and a civil war. At this time the Jewish community in Yemen experienced political and economic persecution, the most serious case being the accusation that Jews in Sana’a had murdered two Muslim girls and the imprisonment of the community leaders. However, the situation stabilized in early 1949 after Ahmad, the son of the assassinated Imam, managed to take control of the country. When the Jews began leaving, there were no anti-Jewish incidents in Yemen.
[...]Viteles’ explanations combined elements of both of these narratives. From the first of them he adopted the religious-ideological explanation, and from the second he took the explanation of the Yemenites’ poor health.
He even drew a link between the Holocaust in Europe and the Yemenites: “Our human cargo on our planes is a pitiful sight. The people are suffering from malnutrition. Five year old children weigh as little as 20 pounds. The
skeletons of Bergen Belsen have reappeared in Aden.”
These remarks and associations created a dichotomy between Yemenite Jewry and Israel, between suffering and the needy on the one hand and salvation and saviors on the other. The suffering was placed entirely on the Yemeni side of the equation, whereas the Israeli leg of the journey was associated with miracles and rescue. Aden was the zero point, whereas the “skeletons of Bergen Belsen” were attributed to Yemen, not the JDC failure or Israel. It is important to note that Viteles was not expressing Zionist or Israeli attitudes but Jewish national ones, views that characterized the JDC after World War II and formed the basis for its cooperation with the Zionist movement. This was the first stage of creating the myth of the magical rescue of Yemenite Jews.
This myth was expressed in much greater detail and much more comprehensively by the JDC’s Zionist partners and was interpreted by them in another way. The details appear in a memorandum by Dr. Yaakov Weinstein, a senior official in the Jewish Agency Immigration Department, who played an important part in the negotiations with the British in Aden in the first stage of the operation. The memorandum mentions the Zionist version of the operation. It extends the story of the aliya to include the story of the Jewish exile in Islamic countries, where the Jews’ inferior status was dictated by the “laws of Omar” and the Jews were subjected to political persecution as a result of the new Arab nationalism. Weinstein describes Yemen in harsh terms, as “hell” and a “cursed, subjugated land” with savage, brutal rulers. The Jews, he says, had survived centuries of oppression and humiliation and were now crying out to be rescued physically. With a stroke of the pen, the well-known European myth of Muslim tolerance gave way to another myth—the myth of Muslim radicalism, antisemitism, and persecution. The establishment of the State of Israel and the immigration of Jews from Islamic countries to Israel were the watershed between the myth of tolerance and the myth of extremism. While the former suited a Jewish minority that lived among a Muslim majority and was trying to ensure its survival, the second suited an independent Jewish state that was trying to gather in the Jews scattered throughout these lands. None of them included the complicated and delicate situation of centuries of coexistence of Jews in Yemen.
Weinstein also helped reinforce the myth that predominated in the Yishuv regarding the image of the Yemenite Jews by portraying the immigrants in the Hashed camp as religiously devout, simple, naïve, and primitive. Despite their difficult plight, he said, they insisted on bringing with them hundreds of Torah scrolls and thousands of religious books, and he attributed to them messianic ideas: these were “naïve Jews” who saw Ben-Gurion as the Messiah, people who arrived “broken and shattered by protracted suffering . . . but on their faces is the splendor of the divine presence and a lofty nobility.” The physical rescue was portrayed as religious and national salvation; it became redemption. This is important because it linked the messianic idea with the aliya from Yemen.
posted by cendawanita at 11:19 PM on January 12 [9 favorites]
--according to the UN OHCHR Report A/HRC/49/44. It notes that the Houthis have coerced Jewish and Baha’i communities into leaving, blackmailing them by arbitrarily detaining religious leaders, influencers and community member
- Stalin committed the Great Purge;
- the Soviets advancing along the Eastern Front also led to the liberation of prisoners in the concentration camps.
If I were alive in ww2, am I supposed to denounce the second following the first?
There have been historical harm, and currently being employed to anticipate possible harm. Okay. There is current and ongoing harm right now. Let's speak to each other as not just Southeast Asians, but also Malaysians - the racism of Americans towards their Japanese citizens and the general bias of the establishment for their European peers that contributed to the choice to drop the atomic bomb on two Japanese cities, how much would that have mattered to our grandparents?
------
Re: Houthis
- Israel naval blockade led to an actual loss of American life aboard the Mavi Marmara, a humanitarian aid ship, and that engendered no significant hard force reaction.
----
Operation Magic Carpet - in addition to the bare public facts reported in the wiki, try this article too: Operation Magic Carpet: Constructing the Myth of the Magical Immigration of Yemenite Jews to Israel by Esther Meir-Glitzenstein (if Jstor access is borked, try this thread for some screenshots):
In the following years “Operation Magic Carpet” was commemorated in the naming of streets and was praised in literature, poetry, historical research, and in the collective memory of Yemenite Immigrants in Israel, becoming one of the establishing images of the relationship between the state and its Mizrahi citizens. It presented these Jews as victims of persecutions by hostile Arab rule, victims who were sentenced to poverty and to social and cultural degeneration. According to this image, Israel was portrayed as a rescuer of these wretched Jews.
[...] The immigration of about 50,000 Yemenite Jews to Israel between December 1948 and late 1951 was one of the most complicated, dangerous, and glorious but also the most painful events in the history of aliya to the new
State of Israel.
In the summer of 1949 hundreds of people lost their lives en route to Israel and the vast majority of the survivors arrived in poor health. Many of them died in the routes of Yemen but hundreds died after leaving Yemen, in the territory of Aden. We have a list of 429 people who died in Hashed, the refugee camp in Aden, where they were supposed to find food and medical treatment after their long way in Yemen. We also know about 200–250 who
died near the borders of Yemen in September–October 1949, after they were not allowed to enter Aden. Most of the 30,000 immigrants who arrived in Israel between July and November 1949 suffered from hunger and diseases,
including 3,000 children who needed urgent hospitalization that the new state was not able to provide.
This catastrophe happened not in Yemen but in Aden, where the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee (JDC), in collaboration with the state of Israel, was supposed to take care of the tired and sick immigrants so that they arrived in Israel in good health. The causes for this catastrophe and the processes whereby a gradual, planned departure turned into a national disaster are beyond the purview of this article. However, by no means can this operation be considered a success or deemed a credit to the organizers.
Nevertheless, the aliya from Yemen is described as having brought relief and deliverance to Yemenite Jewry and it is also perceived as a daring, miraculous, even cosmic event in which the Yemenite Jews were rescued in the blink of an eye from a distressed country and taken by their saviors from a backwards, traditional society to a modern, progressive society.
What was the historical background of these events?—In the late 1940s, Yemen was a poor agricultural country that had not been reached by modernity, and Yemeni labor migrants, both Muslims and Jews, often sneaked into Aden in search of work. The country’s economy deteriorated in 1948 as a result of the assassination of the Imam Yahya, a coup d’état, and a civil war. At this time the Jewish community in Yemen experienced political and economic persecution, the most serious case being the accusation that Jews in Sana’a had murdered two Muslim girls and the imprisonment of the community leaders. However, the situation stabilized in early 1949 after Ahmad, the son of the assassinated Imam, managed to take control of the country. When the Jews began leaving, there were no anti-Jewish incidents in Yemen.
[...]Viteles’ explanations combined elements of both of these narratives. From the first of them he adopted the religious-ideological explanation, and from the second he took the explanation of the Yemenites’ poor health.
He even drew a link between the Holocaust in Europe and the Yemenites: “Our human cargo on our planes is a pitiful sight. The people are suffering from malnutrition. Five year old children weigh as little as 20 pounds. The
skeletons of Bergen Belsen have reappeared in Aden.”
These remarks and associations created a dichotomy between Yemenite Jewry and Israel, between suffering and the needy on the one hand and salvation and saviors on the other. The suffering was placed entirely on the Yemeni side of the equation, whereas the Israeli leg of the journey was associated with miracles and rescue. Aden was the zero point, whereas the “skeletons of Bergen Belsen” were attributed to Yemen, not the JDC failure or Israel. It is important to note that Viteles was not expressing Zionist or Israeli attitudes but Jewish national ones, views that characterized the JDC after World War II and formed the basis for its cooperation with the Zionist movement. This was the first stage of creating the myth of the magical rescue of Yemenite Jews.
This myth was expressed in much greater detail and much more comprehensively by the JDC’s Zionist partners and was interpreted by them in another way. The details appear in a memorandum by Dr. Yaakov Weinstein, a senior official in the Jewish Agency Immigration Department, who played an important part in the negotiations with the British in Aden in the first stage of the operation. The memorandum mentions the Zionist version of the operation. It extends the story of the aliya to include the story of the Jewish exile in Islamic countries, where the Jews’ inferior status was dictated by the “laws of Omar” and the Jews were subjected to political persecution as a result of the new Arab nationalism. Weinstein describes Yemen in harsh terms, as “hell” and a “cursed, subjugated land” with savage, brutal rulers. The Jews, he says, had survived centuries of oppression and humiliation and were now crying out to be rescued physically. With a stroke of the pen, the well-known European myth of Muslim tolerance gave way to another myth—the myth of Muslim radicalism, antisemitism, and persecution. The establishment of the State of Israel and the immigration of Jews from Islamic countries to Israel were the watershed between the myth of tolerance and the myth of extremism. While the former suited a Jewish minority that lived among a Muslim majority and was trying to ensure its survival, the second suited an independent Jewish state that was trying to gather in the Jews scattered throughout these lands. None of them included the complicated and delicate situation of centuries of coexistence of Jews in Yemen.
Weinstein also helped reinforce the myth that predominated in the Yishuv regarding the image of the Yemenite Jews by portraying the immigrants in the Hashed camp as religiously devout, simple, naïve, and primitive. Despite their difficult plight, he said, they insisted on bringing with them hundreds of Torah scrolls and thousands of religious books, and he attributed to them messianic ideas: these were “naïve Jews” who saw Ben-Gurion as the Messiah, people who arrived “broken and shattered by protracted suffering . . . but on their faces is the splendor of the divine presence and a lofty nobility.” The physical rescue was portrayed as religious and national salvation; it became redemption. This is important because it linked the messianic idea with the aliya from Yemen.
posted by cendawanita at 11:19 PM on January 12 [9 favorites]
With all eyes on Gaza, Israeli settlers are waging a second Nakba in the West Bank.
Overseen by the military, Israeli settlers are killing Palestinians and forcing others from their land as the bloodbath continues in Gaza
posted by adamvasco at 12:31 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
Overseen by the military, Israeli settlers are killing Palestinians and forcing others from their land as the bloodbath continues in Gaza
posted by adamvasco at 12:31 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
xdvesper: given that AnsarAllah has been in uncontested control of that part of Yemen for several years now, and that they just started blockading Israeli-linked commerce after October 7, i'm not sure why you think there must be a sinister hidden antisemitic motivation here? Like, yes, they are officially antisemitic as an organization (although a deep dive into their history and public statements complicates the reality of their position somewhat -- like most governmental and quasi-governmental organizations, they are made up of several factions with different underlying ideologies, and serve several distinct constituencies).
Of course i condemn their antisemitism and i believe that any Jewish folks who want to be in Yemen (or return to Yemen!) should be free to live their fucking lives safely and freely. But the actual facts on the ground here support the idea that they are blockading commerce for exactly the reason they say they are: to try to force an end to Israel's genocide of Palestinians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:30 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
Of course i condemn their antisemitism and i believe that any Jewish folks who want to be in Yemen (or return to Yemen!) should be free to live their fucking lives safely and freely. But the actual facts on the ground here support the idea that they are blockading commerce for exactly the reason they say they are: to try to force an end to Israel's genocide of Palestinians.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:30 PM on January 13 [5 favorites]
Some good analysis of the Yemen/Ansarallah situation here (and some of it disagrees with me, and i'm doing more research as we speak, too.)
I don't think Ansarallah is noble, or in any way more principled than any other government (although they aren't really any LESS principled than any other government, either!), and i'm afraid that some of what i've said comes across that way. My (very critical!!!) support for them is limited to this issue, in which i believe them to be acting mostly correctly when no other geopolitical players seem willing to.
(And tbh i have some small hope because one thing that suddenly seems like a possibility here is that the external attacks from the US & UK may help drive a reconciliation between them and the "official" Yemeni government. Although of course both the US and the Saudis are going to oppose that outcome if it starts to seem likely!)
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:51 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
I don't think Ansarallah is noble, or in any way more principled than any other government (although they aren't really any LESS principled than any other government, either!), and i'm afraid that some of what i've said comes across that way. My (very critical!!!) support for them is limited to this issue, in which i believe them to be acting mostly correctly when no other geopolitical players seem willing to.
(And tbh i have some small hope because one thing that suddenly seems like a possibility here is that the external attacks from the US & UK may help drive a reconciliation between them and the "official" Yemeni government. Although of course both the US and the Saudis are going to oppose that outcome if it starts to seem likely!)
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:51 PM on January 13 [3 favorites]
cendawanita, I thought you might expand on that. glad you did. the historiography of the operation is quite interesting. An old, old friends husbands family came to Israel through that operation, in their case, they fled from a particularly anti-jewish enclave.
the yemeni missile strike by the United States highlights three points of military "diplomacy'
from a coalition with similar interests
do not overly react when attacked directly or indirectly.
issue warnings and when they are not headed, issue another one and then strike with very careful attention to limiting casualties.
if the warning is not heded, tell your coalition to stand down and attack them on your own all the while issuing orders in the region to stay clear of hostile areas. it's a projection of force and intent.
I don't think anybody would deny that the houthis have been oppressed people in Yemen. but I believe the oppressed has become the oppressor.
posted by clavdivs at 2:46 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
the yemeni missile strike by the United States highlights three points of military "diplomacy'
from a coalition with similar interests
do not overly react when attacked directly or indirectly.
issue warnings and when they are not headed, issue another one and then strike with very careful attention to limiting casualties.
if the warning is not heded, tell your coalition to stand down and attack them on your own all the while issuing orders in the region to stay clear of hostile areas. it's a projection of force and intent.
I don't think anybody would deny that the houthis have been oppressed people in Yemen. but I believe the oppressed has become the oppressor.
posted by clavdivs at 2:46 PM on January 13 [1 favorite]
I know it's pointless to be enraged at the hypocrisy of the powerful, but Israel has been engaged in a naval blockade of Gaza for SEVENTEEN YEARS and the US navy hasn't been interested in doing shit, even after Israel flat-out murdered nine people in international waters in 2011.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:39 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:39 PM on January 13 [7 favorites]
I believe the oppressed has become the oppressor.
There's a lot of it about.
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
There's a lot of it about.
posted by flabdablet at 3:10 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
I understand that a lot of you don't actually care what those scary brown people call themselves, but the name of the organization which is in de facto control of Yemen is AnsarAllah or Ansarullah. While it was indeed founded by members of the Houthi tribe, many of its current leadership are not in fact Houthis, and the name is largely perceived by them as belittling.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:18 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:18 AM on January 14 [1 favorite]
Cool, then it's the Ansarullah flag that says "A Curse Upon the Jews." (Which is somehow complicated.) That's the right name for the group you're admiring here, while pretending not to. Glad we cleared that up.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:34 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:34 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
i didn't say that slogan is complicated. That slogan is repulsive. I said their history and constituency are complicated. Which they are. And i said i support ONE THING they are doing (blockading Israel-linked naval traffic) , not that i support or admire them IN GENERAL. Jesus fucking christ.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:43 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:43 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
AnsarAllah is a geopolitical actor in de facto control of a state. You can act like they're a scary horde of one-note barbarian terrorists if you like but it's not accurate and also not useful. Saudi Arabia is, i promise you, more antisemitic than Yemen, and they have the US' wholehearted support even when they decide to TORTURE AND MURDER US CITIZENS.
And Saudi Arabia, btw, has been blockading Yemen for seven years now. So if you have suddenly discovered a deep moral opposition to blockade tactics that's one you could criticize. The US government certainly isn't bombing them about it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
And Saudi Arabia, btw, has been blockading Yemen for seven years now. So if you have suddenly discovered a deep moral opposition to blockade tactics that's one you could criticize. The US government certainly isn't bombing them about it!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:49 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
Cendawanita - I think the difference in the analogy is that the Great Purge is only very tenuously connected to the liberation of concentration camps.
While ostensibly opposing genocide serves as cover for AnsarAllah's real objective, which is to fire missiles into Israel and at Israeli linked ships in service of their slogan.
They could not have launched missiles into Israel or attacked Israeli linked shipping in 2022 without facing universal condemnation. But with this cover now they can, and receive enthusiastic support for it. (adrienneleigh - I believe this answers the question of "why now?").
In writing that out, I have reconsidered and say it is good they are doing this, in that it's a useful pressure point against the West to keep Israel in check, even though their actual goal is continuing their own slogan of killing Jews. Enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing, at least for now. But by utilizing missiles, they invite retaliation in kind.
Regarding Magic Carpet: Yes, mass migrations don't go smoothly, particularly when organized in extreme haste immediately after a newly formed country is simultaneously attacked by 7 neighbouring countries. Just imagine the chaotic state of any of their public institutions! There were already actual reprisals in Yemen in 1948, and thus actual fear that Yemeni military retribution for their loss in the war would imminently fall upon the local Jewish population.
Infant mortality during the migration was acknowledged to be high, due to a combination of mismanagement and corruption, but crucially, still lower than in Yemen. Just because there might have been a pause in persecution at some moment in 1949 (as claimed) doesn't mean that Yemen would suddenly continue to be safe forever - and indeed, the persecution continued until today. Otherwise we would have seen Jews move back into Yemen, or the Jewish population in Yemen growing in line with local or global population.
I don't quite understand the Malaysian angle you speak of. I'm fairly sure we think Japan being defeated was a good thing, and very few in Malaya at the time would have lost any sleep over how many civilians were killed in far-away Japan in order to make it happen.
Ironically, I just realised Malaysia designates AnsarAllah as a terrorist organization, while the US presently does not....
posted by xdvesper at 6:01 AM on January 14
While ostensibly opposing genocide serves as cover for AnsarAllah's real objective, which is to fire missiles into Israel and at Israeli linked ships in service of their slogan.
They could not have launched missiles into Israel or attacked Israeli linked shipping in 2022 without facing universal condemnation. But with this cover now they can, and receive enthusiastic support for it. (adrienneleigh - I believe this answers the question of "why now?").
In writing that out, I have reconsidered and say it is good they are doing this, in that it's a useful pressure point against the West to keep Israel in check, even though their actual goal is continuing their own slogan of killing Jews. Enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing, at least for now. But by utilizing missiles, they invite retaliation in kind.
Regarding Magic Carpet: Yes, mass migrations don't go smoothly, particularly when organized in extreme haste immediately after a newly formed country is simultaneously attacked by 7 neighbouring countries. Just imagine the chaotic state of any of their public institutions! There were already actual reprisals in Yemen in 1948, and thus actual fear that Yemeni military retribution for their loss in the war would imminently fall upon the local Jewish population.
Infant mortality during the migration was acknowledged to be high, due to a combination of mismanagement and corruption, but crucially, still lower than in Yemen. Just because there might have been a pause in persecution at some moment in 1949 (as claimed) doesn't mean that Yemen would suddenly continue to be safe forever - and indeed, the persecution continued until today. Otherwise we would have seen Jews move back into Yemen, or the Jewish population in Yemen growing in line with local or global population.
I don't quite understand the Malaysian angle you speak of. I'm fairly sure we think Japan being defeated was a good thing, and very few in Malaya at the time would have lost any sleep over how many civilians were killed in far-away Japan in order to make it happen.
Ironically, I just realised Malaysia designates AnsarAllah as a terrorist organization, while the US presently does not....
posted by xdvesper at 6:01 AM on January 14
That you can't draw the connection between the opening of your comment re: the tenuousness of the Great Purge, with the closing re: ww2 Japan, settles the matter quite conclusively for me, and I have no further comment to make on the political economy of Yemen regarding the current violence in Palestine in this thread.
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:21 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
I said their history and constituency are complicated.
you said their antisemitism is a 'position' that is 'complicated.'
they are officially antisemitic as an organization (although a deep dive into their history and public statements complicates the reality of their position somewhat
then you attacked people here for presumptively considering them "scary brown people" by virtue of not knowing the proper name for their political party, because that really had a lot to add to the discussion.
You can act like they're a scary horde of one-note barbarian terrorists if you like
Stop putting words like this on others' mouths. What the hell is wrong with you? Jesus fucking christ, indeed.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:25 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
you said their antisemitism is a 'position' that is 'complicated.'
they are officially antisemitic as an organization (although a deep dive into their history and public statements complicates the reality of their position somewhat
then you attacked people here for presumptively considering them "scary brown people" by virtue of not knowing the proper name for their political party, because that really had a lot to add to the discussion.
You can act like they're a scary horde of one-note barbarian terrorists if you like
Stop putting words like this on others' mouths. What the hell is wrong with you? Jesus fucking christ, indeed.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:25 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
Yes, the reality of a government's position & policy vs what's in their slogan is, in fact, usually complicated. Let's try an analogy, in very small words:
The official motto of the United States of America is "e pluribus unum": "out of many, one". That's a slogan. The reality of the US government is a whole lot more complicated than that, and very little of what the US government does can be boiled down to "e pluribus unum" in any sensible way, except by people with extremely motivated reasoning.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
The official motto of the United States of America is "e pluribus unum": "out of many, one". That's a slogan. The reality of the US government is a whole lot more complicated than that, and very little of what the US government does can be boiled down to "e pluribus unum" in any sensible way, except by people with extremely motivated reasoning.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:05 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
But also none of this is useful, and i apologize. I'll stick to posting links from now on, with minimal commentary, if i continue to bother at all.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:11 AM on January 14
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:11 AM on January 14
Extremely motivated reasoning?
The government's official spokesman just the other day reassured everyone that they're only against the Zionist conspiracy controlling Washington and London, not everyday Americans and Brits.
“We have a great desire to fight the Jews, because of the Quranic verses and divine decrees that order us to fight the Jews. We have this desire to kill the Jews or be killed by them. This is our desire, our dream, since we set forth on this path. All the Yemenis emerge from this Quranic, religious culture. So the Zionists pose no threat to us. Rather, we see this as a great opportunity to fulfill our desire to confront them.”
Deputy Minister of Information Nasr Al-Din Amer
January 24, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 AM on January 14
The government's official spokesman just the other day reassured everyone that they're only against the Zionist conspiracy controlling Washington and London, not everyday Americans and Brits.
“We have a great desire to fight the Jews, because of the Quranic verses and divine decrees that order us to fight the Jews. We have this desire to kill the Jews or be killed by them. This is our desire, our dream, since we set forth on this path. All the Yemenis emerge from this Quranic, religious culture. So the Zionists pose no threat to us. Rather, we see this as a great opportunity to fulfill our desire to confront them.”
Deputy Minister of Information Nasr Al-Din Amer
January 24, 2022
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:13 AM on January 14
AP article on yesterday's Day of Protest, which is being eclipsed by stories on the strikes and the ICJ.
Axios claims the Biden Administration is "'running out' of patience with Bibi."
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:26 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
Axios claims the Biden Administration is "'running out' of patience with Bibi."
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:26 AM on January 14 [2 favorites]
Prime minister of Israel making clear that they won't stop, not even in the unlikely event of the ICJ ruling their conduct a genocide:
posted by kmt at 7:29 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
We will restore security to both the south and the north. Nobody will stop us – not The Hague, not the axis of evil and not anybody else.Meanwhile, the WSJ:
By mid-December, Israel had dropped 29,000 bombs, munitions and shells on the strip. Nearly 70% of Gaza’s 439,000 homes and about half of its buildings have been damaged or destroyed.Won't stop until literally every building is ruined or what?
posted by kmt at 7:29 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
For a genuinely dark moment, my brain started playing that one-hit wonder from Junior Senior.
Also, Namibia just issued a, hi remember us: Namibia condemns Germany for defending Israel in ICJ genocide case
I just finished watching a vlog from Bisan, compiled by AJ: It's Bisan from Gaza, and I'm fleeing for the 7th time
posted by cendawanita at 7:38 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
Also, Namibia just issued a, hi remember us: Namibia condemns Germany for defending Israel in ICJ genocide case
I just finished watching a vlog from Bisan, compiled by AJ: It's Bisan from Gaza, and I'm fleeing for the 7th time
posted by cendawanita at 7:38 AM on January 14 [3 favorites]
Who is the axis of evil in that statement? Are they talking about North Korea?
posted by Mitheral at 8:07 AM on January 14
posted by Mitheral at 8:07 AM on January 14
Won't stop until literally every building is ruined or what?
Well, you see, they argue that every single building in Gaza likely leads to a maze of twisty little Hamas tunnel passages, all alike. So the only way to provide security is to bomb absolutely everything until it's all just one big tunnel, then bomb that.
After that, the Gazans can use their vast resources to rebuild -- oh, they're all dead or shoved into other nations? It'd be a shame to have all this land go to waste.
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
Well, you see, they argue that every single building in Gaza likely leads to a maze of twisty little Hamas tunnel passages, all alike. So the only way to provide security is to bomb absolutely everything until it's all just one big tunnel, then bomb that.
After that, the Gazans can use their vast resources to rebuild -- oh, they're all dead or shoved into other nations? It'd be a shame to have all this land go to waste.
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on January 14 [8 favorites]
Israel Plans Risky Mission to Seize Last Gaza Border It Doesn’t Control
A military operation along Gaza’s southern border would be tricky, with Egypt on one side and a million displaced Palestinians concentrated on the other [WSJ gift link]
Detailed article about Israel floating plans for a military attack on the southern Gaza border with Egypt, Egypt's pushback on the plans, and the risks for the civilian population. Excerpts:
Israeli leaders haven’t given a final go-ahead for an operation along the border and the timing of any operation will depend on negotiations with the Egyptian government, which is trying to broker a new agreement to free Israeli hostages held by Hamas in return for the release of Palestinian prisoners and a cease-fire in Gaza.
An offensive in the area will be complicated militarily due to the presence of more than a million Palestinian civilians who have fled the rest of the strip and have concentrated in the area. Most of them are packed into the city of Rafah adjacent to the border or camping in areas along the boundary.
Even a limited military operation to occupy a stretch of land a few hundred yards wide would require Israeli forces to push through Rafah city, which straddles the border, and areas where the displaced people have gathered in tent camps. Security analysts are concerned that such an operation would deepen the humanitarian crisis.
The 3rd and 4th images at the link, a map showing the location of the Rafah refugee camp and an aerial photo showing the density of civilian tents at the southern border, are useful shorthands. And this quote from an unnamed Israeli official struck me as revealing:
“Right now in the near term, in the next few decades, Israel needs to control the borders because of the security issues."
The near term for that official is "the next few decades."
posted by mediareport at 8:32 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
A military operation along Gaza’s southern border would be tricky, with Egypt on one side and a million displaced Palestinians concentrated on the other [WSJ gift link]
Detailed article about Israel floating plans for a military attack on the southern Gaza border with Egypt, Egypt's pushback on the plans, and the risks for the civilian population. Excerpts:
Israeli leaders haven’t given a final go-ahead for an operation along the border and the timing of any operation will depend on negotiations with the Egyptian government, which is trying to broker a new agreement to free Israeli hostages held by Hamas in return for the release of Palestinian prisoners and a cease-fire in Gaza.
An offensive in the area will be complicated militarily due to the presence of more than a million Palestinian civilians who have fled the rest of the strip and have concentrated in the area. Most of them are packed into the city of Rafah adjacent to the border or camping in areas along the boundary.
Even a limited military operation to occupy a stretch of land a few hundred yards wide would require Israeli forces to push through Rafah city, which straddles the border, and areas where the displaced people have gathered in tent camps. Security analysts are concerned that such an operation would deepen the humanitarian crisis.
The 3rd and 4th images at the link, a map showing the location of the Rafah refugee camp and an aerial photo showing the density of civilian tents at the southern border, are useful shorthands. And this quote from an unnamed Israeli official struck me as revealing:
“Right now in the near term, in the next few decades, Israel needs to control the borders because of the security issues."
The near term for that official is "the next few decades."
posted by mediareport at 8:32 AM on January 14 [5 favorites]
Who is the axis of evil in that statement? Are they talking about North Korea?
In Bibi's own tweeted words:
"This is a war against the axis of evil led by Iran and its three proxies: Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis."
So if the war will continue until final victory over all of those is accomplished... oh, this will be a fun ride.
posted by delfin at 8:39 AM on January 14
In Bibi's own tweeted words:
"This is a war against the axis of evil led by Iran and its three proxies: Hezbollah, Hamas and the Houthis."
So if the war will continue until final victory over all of those is accomplished... oh, this will be a fun ride.
posted by delfin at 8:39 AM on January 14
It's also very convenient that "controlling the border" by attacking an area packed with refugee civilians will necessitate murdering many of them. Much of these "offensives" are really just a scrim for "let's kill civilians, as many as possible, as fast as possible, just in case there's some effective global pressure on us at some point". If next spring they present the world with a million dead of bombing, starvation and disease and a million who've somehow managed to flee, the world will denounce but the world will forget, and Israel will have Gaza and the West Bank.
posted by Frowner at 8:42 AM on January 14 [12 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:42 AM on January 14 [12 favorites]
Much of these "offensives" are really just a scrim for "let's kill civilians, as many as possible, as fast as possible, just in case there's some effective global pressure on us at some point".
I disagree with this sentence (though I agree with your broader point). If the actual goal was to kill civilians, they'd mostly all be dead by now. What we're seeing is near-total indifference to civilian casualties -- it's not a goal, but it's also not a big factor in whether or not to, say, bomb a location where AI or some other kind of intelligence says Hamas might be located. (Hence, for example, the use of the unguided 2000-pound bombs in dense urban neighborhoods, vs the smaller, more precise munitions the US keeps trying to get them to use.)
Personally I find that indifference almost more disturbing than an actual intent to kill civilians -- at least having an intent to kill means that you are seeing them and considering them as people, versus not seeing them as even worth consideration.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:38 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
I disagree with this sentence (though I agree with your broader point). If the actual goal was to kill civilians, they'd mostly all be dead by now. What we're seeing is near-total indifference to civilian casualties -- it's not a goal, but it's also not a big factor in whether or not to, say, bomb a location where AI or some other kind of intelligence says Hamas might be located. (Hence, for example, the use of the unguided 2000-pound bombs in dense urban neighborhoods, vs the smaller, more precise munitions the US keeps trying to get them to use.)
Personally I find that indifference almost more disturbing than an actual intent to kill civilians -- at least having an intent to kill means that you are seeing them and considering them as people, versus not seeing them as even worth consideration.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:38 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
If the actual goal was to kill civilians, they'd mostly all be dead by now.
That's a truthy rhetorical flourish, not an actual truth.
Not even the Third Reich operating at peak industrialized murder efficiency managed a murder rate as high as that required to make it plausible, and no combined air and ground campaign could match anything even close to that degree of malevolent focus.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
That's a truthy rhetorical flourish, not an actual truth.
Not even the Third Reich operating at peak industrialized murder efficiency managed a murder rate as high as that required to make it plausible, and no combined air and ground campaign could match anything even close to that degree of malevolent focus.
posted by flabdablet at 10:26 AM on January 14 [4 favorites]
What we're seeing is near-total indifference to civilian casualties
if it was merely total indifference, there wouldn't be a manufactured famine to accompany the military attacks. "total indifference is worse than genocidal intent" is a line i've heard from a variety of people and one that i'm not necessarily inclined to dismiss entirely since i've heard it from palestinian people, but i haven't heard it from anyone i trust on this point recently, and "it's worse than genocidal intent, and it's in particular not genocidal intent" is, in particular, a denial of genocidal intent at a moment when attention is officially directed at the presence/absence of genocidal intent.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:22 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]
if it was merely total indifference, there wouldn't be a manufactured famine to accompany the military attacks. "total indifference is worse than genocidal intent" is a line i've heard from a variety of people and one that i'm not necessarily inclined to dismiss entirely since i've heard it from palestinian people, but i haven't heard it from anyone i trust on this point recently, and "it's worse than genocidal intent, and it's in particular not genocidal intent" is, in particular, a denial of genocidal intent at a moment when attention is officially directed at the presence/absence of genocidal intent.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:22 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]
Look again at those WSJ stats above. 70% of homes and 50% of buildings in general are gone, and they're not coming back. Who would rebuild them? What would they rebuild them WITH, without trained workers and machinery and raw materials? What assurances could they possibly have that five minutes after a ribbon-cutting for magically-occurring new construction, another air strike wouldn't flatten it because "we suspect there is a Hamas tunnel underneath?"
That half-of-all-buildings housing, markets, places of business, places of worship. That's schools, hospitals, factories, peddlers' stalls, hotels, transportation, the ability to do much of ANYTHING. And Bibi is proud to declare that they're far from done with explosive demolition.
Whether people are in those structures or not when the bombs fall? Whether or not they are bombing the places that they told the refugees to flee to? Whether or not they are targeting infrastructure that they know has nothing to do with Hamas? Yes, I do believe there is depraved indifference at work, but whether a given Gazan is dead, maimed or on the run is what they are somewhat indifferent about.
What's not in question is that they are destroying not every last Gaza resident, but rather denying the ability of the Gaza Strip to sustain life. Permanently, as far as Gazans are concerned. Even if a ceasefire happens now, residents can't return to a place where there's nowhere to live, nothing to eat, no way to make a living, nothing to rebuild with, and nothing preventing it all from happening again.
Eventually, infrastructure will return there. But it won't be anyone who'd lived there before doing the job.
posted by delfin at 1:55 PM on January 14 [8 favorites]
That half-of-all-buildings housing, markets, places of business, places of worship. That's schools, hospitals, factories, peddlers' stalls, hotels, transportation, the ability to do much of ANYTHING. And Bibi is proud to declare that they're far from done with explosive demolition.
Whether people are in those structures or not when the bombs fall? Whether or not they are bombing the places that they told the refugees to flee to? Whether or not they are targeting infrastructure that they know has nothing to do with Hamas? Yes, I do believe there is depraved indifference at work, but whether a given Gazan is dead, maimed or on the run is what they are somewhat indifferent about.
What's not in question is that they are destroying not every last Gaza resident, but rather denying the ability of the Gaza Strip to sustain life. Permanently, as far as Gazans are concerned. Even if a ceasefire happens now, residents can't return to a place where there's nowhere to live, nothing to eat, no way to make a living, nothing to rebuild with, and nothing preventing it all from happening again.
Eventually, infrastructure will return there. But it won't be anyone who'd lived there before doing the job.
posted by delfin at 1:55 PM on January 14 [8 favorites]
"It is no use trying to escape their arrogance by submission or good behaviour. They have pillaged the world: when the land has nothing left for men who ravage everything, they scour the sea. If an enemy is rich, they are greedy, if he is poor, they crave glory. Neither East nor West can sate their appetite. They are the only people on earth to covet wealth and poverty with equal craving. They plunder, they butcher, they ravish, and call it by the lying name of 'empire'. They make a desert and call it 'peace'." --- Calgacus, via Tacitus, in Agricola.
posted by SPrintF at 3:07 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 3:07 PM on January 14 [4 favorites]
water, water everywhere but not a
the topic of the infrastructure I think most would commonly agree that water supply is one of the most critical if not the most. as far as I see it I believe it's Bahrain that is opening three desalination plants clean water to Gaza in the future and the present for that matter will have to be partially contingent upon Israel's cooperation. it is my belief that after this madness is over and I don't think it'll ever be over Israel denies it's citizens rights and continues it's ghettoization of the Palestinian people to return or rebuild or to take part in water infrastructure, that convinces me that they are culpable of the crimes of genocide.
correlation of memory and knowledge about the example of Stalin's Purge and Russian liberations of pows camps, is this right as this thread has become quite dense .
exigency would override any knowledge of past crimes as an an army that just liberated you. As my uncle said, it was the russians, they didn't f*** around, U.S. Russians brought booze cigarettes and beef. I mean if that's not an ally I mean come on. but the main forces moved on and the ones left behind didn't really interfere with Americans but they did treat Soviet prisoners harshly. many times in open sight. the Russians didn't control the Americans even though they controlled the territory. the Russians didn't interfere with virtually anything the Americans did, did not restrict their travel and allowed them to have light arms.
That's a truthy rhetorical flourish, not an actual truth.
I'd flag that as accurate as hell.
one word three syllables. Masada.
the motto of the United States is e pluribus unum. it also displays Fasces on the walls of Congress. it's not a slogan and I don't think it's quite accurate, it's even in Latin something very old but perhaps it's an ideal.
on one Mission my uncle was allowed to look through the bomb site for reaching me objective. and he told me what he saw in detail and from what I've seen of BDA assessments over Germany I would say Gaza is quite similar. concerning Biden, the administration's support of Israel, I can only say that it seems like the ship of State is slowly steering away. it could be analogous to the conception historically of other Arab states capitalizing on the agony of the Palestinian people. John le Carre wrote a novel about it and as always, I believe Klaus kinski was quite good in that role.
posted by clavdivs at 3:21 PM on January 14
the topic of the infrastructure I think most would commonly agree that water supply is one of the most critical if not the most. as far as I see it I believe it's Bahrain that is opening three desalination plants clean water to Gaza in the future and the present for that matter will have to be partially contingent upon Israel's cooperation. it is my belief that after this madness is over and I don't think it'll ever be over Israel denies it's citizens rights and continues it's ghettoization of the Palestinian people to return or rebuild or to take part in water infrastructure, that convinces me that they are culpable of the crimes of genocide.
correlation of memory and knowledge about the example of Stalin's Purge and Russian liberations of pows camps, is this right as this thread has become quite dense .
exigency would override any knowledge of past crimes as an an army that just liberated you. As my uncle said, it was the russians, they didn't f*** around, U.S. Russians brought booze cigarettes and beef. I mean if that's not an ally I mean come on. but the main forces moved on and the ones left behind didn't really interfere with Americans but they did treat Soviet prisoners harshly. many times in open sight. the Russians didn't control the Americans even though they controlled the territory. the Russians didn't interfere with virtually anything the Americans did, did not restrict their travel and allowed them to have light arms.
That's a truthy rhetorical flourish, not an actual truth.
I'd flag that as accurate as hell.
one word three syllables. Masada.
the motto of the United States is e pluribus unum. it also displays Fasces on the walls of Congress. it's not a slogan and I don't think it's quite accurate, it's even in Latin something very old but perhaps it's an ideal.
on one Mission my uncle was allowed to look through the bomb site for reaching me objective. and he told me what he saw in detail and from what I've seen of BDA assessments over Germany I would say Gaza is quite similar. concerning Biden, the administration's support of Israel, I can only say that it seems like the ship of State is slowly steering away. it could be analogous to the conception historically of other Arab states capitalizing on the agony of the Palestinian people. John le Carre wrote a novel about it and as always, I believe Klaus kinski was quite good in that role.
posted by clavdivs at 3:21 PM on January 14
The Palestine Festival of Literature has created a project where several actors read the relevant parts (they skipped the boilerplate legal-filing stuff) from South Africa's case against Israel at the ICJ.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:44 PM on January 14 [5 favorites]
In re: the Axios story, Adam Johnson on Twitter:
As Ive noted before, the WH’s preferred method of ass covering is having anonymous Biden aides leak to Politico or Politico clones like Axios how sad and secretly upset they are Behind The Scenes. They’ve done this about two dozen times since 10/7. it’s entirely PRposted by adrienneleigh at 6:30 PM on January 14 [8 favorites]
On Journalism
(MSNBC) 'Stunned, angry, and infuriated': Journalists address US silence on colleagues killed in Gaza - According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 82 journalists and media workers have died since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7th, making this war the deadliest in modern history for journalists. Hamza Al-Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya are the latest journalists to be killed in the war. Hamza is the son of Al Jazeera’s Gaza Bureau Chief Wael Al-Dahdouh, who had already lost his wife, daughter, another son, and grandson in an Israeli airstrike. Al-Dahdouh vows to continue reporting through his pain and loss.
(New Lines) The Unprecedented Killing of Journalists Is Affecting Coverage of Gaza
Abdallah had been livestreaming when the attack came. The first tank missile’s impact, visible on camera, killed him instantly. Ali Hashem, a correspondent with Al Jazeera, told me he was with Abdallah just before the attack. By chance, he and Ramez El Kadi — a correspondent with New TV, an independent news station in Lebanon — moved to a separate location an hour before the first shell hit. On their way, Abdallah sent El Kadi a message, warning them about the danger of where they were headed.
“Imagine that,” Hashem said. “The guy who was so cautious was killed in the end.”
Shahrour later told me that, at Abdallah’s burial, he cycled, uncontrollably, between laughter and sobs. “What is happening?” he thought to himself. “You’ve become a part of the news.” He had not yet slept; he had been up all night working to get Abdallah’s death certificate notarized. In a Nov. 13 Instagram post memorializing Abdallah, Assi wrote that, only a day before the attack, Abdallah told Dylan Collins, a colleague at AFP, that he didn’t want to cover conflicts anymore. Now, he was permanently tied to the war.
[...]What’s more, a hesitancy among Western publications to assign blame for these attacks to Israel (it took Reuters, for example, 55 days to conclude that Israel killed Abdallah) has forced journalists to more readily advocate for their slain colleagues. Bereavement, then, has not been the only shift. The sheer scale of media targeting has jarred journalism in the region, blurring the lines of advocacy, reporting and grief.
It has also revealed internal challenges in some of the reporting emerging out of the Arab world. Diana Moukalled, the co-founder of Daraj Media and a friend of both Abdallah and Shahrour, has felt that a nuanced approach, one that acknowledges the atrocities of the Israeli occupation but asks questions of Palestinian armed groups — that interrogates, for example, whether those groups have asked too much of the Gazan community — has been missing.
[...] “The priority should be on ending the killing. We’re pushing people to be steadfast, but they don’t have the resources for that,” she said, referring to what she perceives as the local media’s propensity to focus on the resilience of Palestinians rather than to question the underlying narrative of resilience and who, if anyone, has benefited from it. It’s a difficult proposition: Conceding anything to an Israeli state that has been unrelenting in its bombardment and collective punishment could be seen as ambivalence toward the ongoing atrocity. But does that leave room for gradation in the coverage? “I don’t think it can be done,” Moukalled said.
[...] But separating grief and critical analysis was challenging. During his first appearance on New TV, the host’s first question broke any stoicism still enduring in Shahrour’s expression.
“How are we doing?” she asked him. Already, he was fighting tears. “It has been the hardest 48 hours of my life,” he said, his voice breaking.
After that, Shahrour continued to give on-air interviews nearly every day for two weeks. He said not only that the attack on Abdallah was the result of what the Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate has described as Israel’s calculated targeting of journalists, an egregious war crime in and of itself, but also that it appears as if the mere presence of an Al Jazeera satellite news gathering (SNG) vehicle sufficed to inspire the missile strike. Based on Shahrour’s own assessment, Israel appeared to be strategically targeting and attempting to silence its most popular media critic, as if to literally fight the war of narratives using lethal force. Indeed, three weeks after Abdallah was killed in the tank strike on Alma al-Shaab, a similar bombardment occurred in Yaroun, where an Israeli airstrike narrowly missed a number of news crews stationed in the southern Lebanese town. Among them, again, was an Al Jazeera van. The response to these attacks, Shahrour said, has also revealed a polarization in the war’s reporting between Western media, which has largely underreported it, and Arab media, which has not missed reporting on any killing. The extremity of this dichotomy is new.
The dividing lines, Shahrour told me, have never been this obvious. Before Reuters reported that an Israeli strike killed Abdallah, its initial statement appeared to pussyfoot around the issue, saying only that Abdallah was “killed in missile fire from [the] direction of Israel.” For Shahrour, the use of the passive voice and ambiguous language was the kind of journalistic failure that has become too common in coverage of the region by Western media.
[...] Of this opaque border-blaming, Shahrour joked facetiously: “This leads to three conclusions. Either Israel killed him, or Hamas somehow shot a missile into south Lebanon, or maybe my aunt-in-law actually did it. I mean it’s unbelievable.”
The passivity has sullied the respect that Shahrour once personally held for certain Western institutions.
“There are Western reporters for whom we were excited when they received a platform, who now we can’t trust, who seem to know nothing about media ethics and who have been held up as the standard for the latter,” he said.
[...] Hamdalla seems, also, to be growing disillusioned with the ability of local reporting to inspire change among Western and other international political actors. We were exchanging audio messages on the morning of Dec. 15, shortly after Samer Abu Daqqa, the Al Jazeera cameraman, had been shot. By then, he had been bleeding out for five hours and 15 minutes. Hamdalla was in a sort of simmering panic; Al Jazeera had been trying to contact the Red Cross, asking them to mediate a safe passage with Israel for medical assistance to reach Abu Daqqa. The Red Cross, she said, was refusing to get involved. “I guess we need journalists from Europe and America to challenge them and ask them why they’re behaving in this way,” she said, fighting back tears.
The number of media deaths had doubled since the first time we spoke in early December. The urgency in her demands was notably more desperate, as she insisted that international organizations — like the Red Cross — had given up on Gaza, and that, by doing so, they had become complicit in the bombardment. Over a series of WhatsApp audio messages, she pleaded, “Our reporters in Gaza have been trying to talk about this, but nobody has listened.” A single Red Crescent ambulance was trying to make its way to Abu Daqqa but, according to Wael al-Dahdouh, Al Jazeera’s Gaza bureau chief, it came under Israeli fire and retreated. Dahdouh himself has also endured immense loss, including the killing of his wife, their grandchild, their 7-year-old daughter and their 15-year-old son. On Jan. 7, Wael’s eldest child, Hamza — a fellow journalist at Al Jazeera — was also killed in an Israeli missile strike.
In the midst of the action, I asked Hamdalla if she was free to call. After a long pause, she replied, instead, with a photo of Abu Daqqa and another audio message.
“Samer died. Samer’s dead,” she was crying. “For six hours he was bleeding on air, every camera in the world recording him, and there’s not a paramedic who dared come help him.”
(Guardian - Chris McGreal opinion) Israel is murdering Palestinian journalists in Gaza. Where is the outrage?
In 2003, an Israeli soldier shot dead the British documentary cameraman James Miller in Gaza. An inquest in the UK returned a verdict of unlawful killing. Israel declined to prosecute the soldier responsible but it did pay £1.5m in compensation, which Miller’s family said was “probably the closest we’ll get to an admission of guilt on the part of the Israelis”.
Miller’s killing looked to be part of a pattern of ill-disciplined Israeli soldiers shooting whoever they felt like – not only journalists but UN officials and aid workers as well as Palestinian children. The army was usually quick to try to cover up the killings but it did not appear they were coordinated.
[...] Miller’s family got a payout because he was British. Dead western journalists create more waves, which is presumably one of the reasons Israel has locked the foreign press out of Gaza during the present war. International news organisations now rely on those same Palestinian reporters targeted by Israel. They provide many of the pictures the rest of the world sees of the horror in Gaza.
It is therefore troubling that while western newspapers and television stations have reported the rising numbers of deaths of journalists in Gaza, many news organisations appear unwilling to directly address the pattern of killing that, as the CPJ’s evidence appears to show, provides strong evidence of a war crime. It would surely be different if American or European reporters were the ones dying.
(The Intercept) Coverage of Gaza War in the New York Times and Other Major Newspapers Heavily Favored Israel, Analysis Shows
The New York Times, Washington Post, and Los Angeles Times’s coverage of Israel’s war on Gaza showed a consistent bias against Palestinians, according to an Intercept analysis of major media coverage.
The print media outlets, which play an influential role in shaping U.S. views of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, paid little attention to the unprecedented impact of Israel’s siege and bombing campaign on both children and journalists in the Gaza Strip.
Major U.S. newspapers disproportionately emphasized Israeli deaths in the conflict; used emotive language to describe the killings of Israelis, but not Palestinians; and offered lopsided coverage of antisemitic acts in the U.S., while largely ignoring anti-Muslim racism in the wake of October 7. Pro-Palestinian activists have accused major publications of pro-Israel bias, with the New York Times seeing protests Opens in a new tabat its headquarters in Manhattan for its coverage of Gaza –– an accusation supported by our analysis.
The open-source analysis focuses on the first six weeks of the conflict, from the October 7 Hamas-led attacks that killed 1,139 IsraelisOpens in a new tab and foreign workers to November 24, the beginning of the weeklong “humanitarian truce” agreed to by both parties to facilitate hostage exchanges. During this period, 14,800 Palestinians, including more than 6,000 children, were killed by Israel’s bombardment of Gaza. Today, the Palestinian death toll is over 22,000.
The Intercept collected more than 1,000 articles from the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times about Israel’s war on Gaza and tallied up the usages of certain key terms and the context in which they were used. The tallies reveal a gross imbalance in the way Israelis and pro-Israel figures are covered versus Palestinians and pro-Palestinian voices — with usages that favor Israeli narratives over Palestinian ones.
This anti-Palestinian bias in print media tracks with a similar survey of U.S. cable news that the authors conducted last month for The ColumnOpens in a new tab that found an even wider disparity.
Canada: (Breach Media) CBC says killing of Palestinians doesn’t merit terms ‘murderous,’ ‘brutal’ - In response to complaints about its coverage, CBC says Israeli state violence is different than Hamas’ violence because the killing of Palestinians happens “remotely”
In a letter responding to a complaint filed by a reader, the public broadcaster acknowledged that they’ve used terms like “murderous,” “vicious,” “brutal,” “massacre,” and “slaughter” to refer only to Hamas’s attack on Israelis on Oct. 7.
But when it comes to the Israeli army’s bombing of Palestinians, which has killed more than 22,600 people as of Friday, CBC says they prefer to use terms like “intensive,” “unrelenting,” and “punishing.”
The more evocative and sympathy-generating terms don’t apply to Palestinian deaths, CBC argues, because Israel carries out its killings “remotely” instead of face-to-face.
CBC launched its highly revealing defence in an email reply to Jeff Winch, a retired professor at Humber College who had filed four complaints about CBC’s coverage with the CRTC, Canada’s telecoms regulator.
(Democracy Now) Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate: Israel Is Targeting Media in Gaza to Hide Its Atrocities from the World
LA Legault: (thread with video at the end)
A lawyer I know working in immigration & refugee law in #Canada 🇨🇦 said we’re requiring Palestinians 🇵🇸 to provide all their social media information and that they have to consent to share their entire informtion package with Israel 🇮🇱!!! Also that we are only accepting 1,000 family members 😳.
(In contrast we accepted 940,000 from Ukraine)
Why on earth would we share their information with Israel?
Also from LA Legault: Gideon Levy, one of Israel’s most prominent journalists was on the BBC’s HardTalk this week calling for BDS.
He said he loves his country but it will not change internally and external financial pressure is needed to end the occupation.
— I have no access as it’s only on UK-only iPlayer and they haven't been keeping up with their yt channel.
I can read this though: If It Isn't a Genocide in Gaza, Then What Is It?
And what to make of the remarks of the head of the Israeli defense team, Prof. Malcolm Shaw: "The actions of Israel are proportionate and only target armed forces"? But what about the truth? Proportionate with such destruction? If that is what proportionate looks like, what does disproportionate look like? Hiroshima?
"Only against armed forces," with near multitudes of dead children? What is he talking about? "Making phone calls to evacuate the uninvolved"; who still has an operating telephone in Gaza and exactly where are they supposed to evacuate in this hell where not a single piece of safe ground remains? And the ultimate: "Even if soldiers violated the laws governing war, that will be heard by the Israeli legal system."
Shaw apparently has not heard about the Israeli legal system and even less about what is called the military legal system. He has not heard that after Operation Cast Lead, the 2008-2009 conflict with Gaza, only four soldiers were indicted for criminal offenses and only one of them was sent to prison for the misdemeanor theft of a credit card (!). All the others hurling shells and bombs at the innocent will never be indicted.
And what about the remarks of Dr. Galit Rejwan, the weekend discovery who will undoubtedly be chosen to light this year's torch at the Independence Day ceremony on Mount Herzl: "The IDF is moving hospitals to a safer place." Will Shifa be moved to Sheba? Rantisi to Soroka? What safe places in Gaza is she talking about and which hospitals will the IDF move?
None of this of course proves that Israel has committed genocide. The court will decide that. But to feel good about such arguments for the defense? To feel good after The Hague? To feel good after Gaza?
Raphael Mimoun:
Based on my conversation with Israeli friends and relatives--including many who call themselves "progressive" and "pro-peace"--this cartoon perfectly sums up how they see things.
This shows, more clearly than ever, that only external pressure can end violence & apartheid.
[cartoon is of a judge with a magnifying glass aimed at an IDF soldier. Judge says, quiet! I am looking for Genocide. He’s saying that to a mob of Islamist terrorists behind him holding antisemitic placards as well as “more 7.10”]
He links to his 2021 post, Zionism cannot produce a just peace. Only external pressure can end the Israeli apartheid:
Zionism is rooted in trauma and fear. It’s about survival and love for the Jewish people. But like any other ethnic nationalism, Zionism establishes a hierarchy: It’s about prioritizing our safety and well-being, even at the expense of others. It relies on an alternate historical narrative that justifies the occupation and rationalizes the status quo. And it cannot produce a just peace on its own.
The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is, by every definition, apartheid: two legal systems for two ethnic groups. If a Jew and an Arab commit the exact same crime in the West Bank, the Jew will face a civil court; the Arab, a military court. But most Israelis can’t fathom this as unjust. They fight the term “apartheid” because they genuinely believe that the discrimination is legitimate and a matter of self-defense.
[...] Of course, some Israelis reject these narratives and actively campaign for Palestinian liberation. But those make up a minority. The average Israeli doesn’t contend with what it means to live out an occupation on a daily basis: having to submit to foreign troops at checkpoints, requiring a permit for any and all matters from a government that doesn’t represent you, knowing that soldiers can invade your home or seize your property with no accountability.
The only thing that can bring about Palestinian liberation is if the cost of the occupation begins to outweigh its benefits to Israel. That would require, as it did for other apartheids and occupations, massive external pressure. In South Africa, international sanctions, an arms embargo and a global boycott forced the collapse of the racist regime. The brutal occupation of East Timor by Indonesia was ended by a global solidarity movement and international pressure. In the American South, it was legislation and Supreme Court decisions that imposed equal rights and ended the racial segregation of Jim Crow.
Speaking of those: ‘It is a time of witch hunts in Israel’: teacher held in solitary confinement for posting concern about Gaza deaths
“Most Israelis don’t know much about Palestinians. They think they are terrorists, all of them, or vague images with no names, no faces, no family, no homes, no hopes,” Baruchin said. “What I am trying to do in my posts is present Palestinians as human beings.”
Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.
Inside Israel, veteran journalists, intellectuals and rights activists say, there is little public space for dissent about the war in Gaza, even three months into an offensive that has killed 23,000 Palestinians and has no end in sight. “Make no mistake: Baruchin was used as a political tool to send a political message. The motive for his arrest was deterrence – silencing any criticism or any hint of protest against Israeli policy,” the long-established Haaretz newspaper said in an editorial.
He is not the only teacher to be targeted. Authorities also summoned Yael Ayalon, head of a Tel Aviv high school, after she shared a Haaretz article warning that Israeli media was hiding the suffering of Gaza’s civilians. “Israeli citizens need to be aware of this reality,” the piece said.
Her students rioted in the school after news of the post spread; she took her employers to a tribunal and was reinstated, but when she returned to school she was attacked again by students chanting “go home”. She declined to speak to the Observer.
[...] Baruchin believes he is the only Jewish Israeli to have been detained for denouncing civilian deaths in Gaza, but this would not be unusual if he was a Palestinian citizen of Israel.
Hundreds have been arrested and jailed, or lost jobs or access to education because of social media posts. The judge who put Baruchin in prison drew an explicit comparison. “Had an Arab resident made the post, the danger would have been clear. I do not believe that there is room for differentiating between an Arab post and a Jewish post.”
[...] “I wasn’t allowed to take anything with me to the cell,” he says. “I walked in with my clothes on and stayed with the same clothes for four days. There were cold-water showers, a tiny piece of soap, two blankets stinking from cigarette smoke and a tiny towel.
“I was not allowed a book, TV or anything. The wardens were not allowed to talk to me and there were no windows, so I didn’t know daytime from night-time. My watch was taken away.
“In order not to go crazy I exercised every one and a half to two hours. Every time the warden came to check I asked what time it was, to calculate how much is left.”
He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”
When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.
He says he has not been traumatised by the experience, as for him the fate of Palestinian civilians and Israeli hostages in Gaza is much more disturbing. He still follows what is happening there closely, and flicks on his phone through images of the recent dead, a journalist, a violinist, a baby.
Transcript of interview with Miko Peled (by Chris Hedges): The IDF’s war crimes are a perfect reflection of Israeli society
Miko Peled, author and former member of IDF Special Forces, explains how Israel indoctrinates its citizens in anti-Palestinian racism from the cradle to the grave.
[...] The myth that I was… Again, this was given to me in larger doses at home because my father and his comrades were all part of the 1948 mythology. We were small and we were resourceful, and we were clever, and therefore, in 1948, we were able to defeat these Arab armies and these Arab killers who came to try to kill us and so on and destroy our fledgling little Jewish state. And because of our heroism — And you talked about the biblical connection — Because we are the descendants of King David, and we are the descendants of the Maccabees, and we have this resourcefulness and strength in our genes, we were able to create a state and then every time they attacked, we were there. We were able to defend ourselves and prevail and so on. It’s everywhere. Then again, in my case, it’s every time the larger, more extended family got together or my parents got together with their friends. And in many cases, the fathers were also comrades in arms.
The stories of the battles, the stories of the conquests; Every city in Israel has an IDF plaza. Street names after different units of different generals are all over the country, street names of battles, so it’s everywhere. It wasn’t until I was probably 40 or a little less than 40, that it was the first time that I encountered the other narrative, the Palestinian story, and it was unbelievable. Somebody was telling me the day is night and night is day, or the world is flat, or whatever the comparison you want to make, it was incredible. They are telling me that what I know to be true ’cause I heard it in school and I read it in books, and I heard it from my father and from my mother and from friends, that all of this is not true. And what you find out if you go along the path that I chose to take, this journey of an Israeli to Palestine, is that it was one horrifying crime against humanity.
That’s what this so-called heroism really was, it was no heroism at all. It was a well-trained, highly motivated, well-indoctrinated, well-armed militia which then became the IDF. But when it started, it was still a militia or today they would be called a terrorist organization, that went up against the people who had never had a military force, who never had a tank, who never had a warplane, who never prepared, even remotely, for battle or for an assault. Then you have to make a choice: How do you bridge this? The differences are not nuanced, the differences are enormous. The choice that I made is to investigate for myself and find out who’s telling the truth and who isn’t. And my side was not telling the truth
[...]My generation, we knew that there were several instances of bad apples that committed terrible crimes. And we admitted, so there was Deir Yassin, which was a village on the outskirts of Jerusalem, a peaceful village where a horrible massacre took place. Then we knew that Ariel Sharon was a bit of a lunatic and he took the commandos that he commanded in the ’50s and went to the West Bank and went into Gaza and committed acts of terrible massacres. He was still a hero, held in high regard by everyone, but we knew that there were certain instances… And every military, every nation makes its mistakes and then these things happen But there was never any sense that this somehow discounted or hurt the image of us being a moral army.
There are lots of stories of how soldiers went and they decided to, out of the kindness of their heart, they didn’t harm civilians. And those same civilians went and then warned the enemy that they were coming. And these same good Israeli soldiers would then pay the price and were killed. So it’s presented as limited cases. Nakba was not something that was ever discussed. I’m sure it’s not discussed today, certainly not in schools. In Israeli schools today, you’re not allowed to mention the Nakba. There’s a directive by the Ministry of Education that even Palestinians are not allowed to mention the Nakba. But nobody ever talked about that. And the Arabs left, what are you going to do? There was a war and all these people left and this is the way it is.
So none of that ever hurt, in any way, the image of us being this glorious heroic army, descendants of King David, and other great traditions of Jewish heroism, none of that ever, ever hurt itself. So there’s no trauma because we did nothing wrong. If somebody did something wrong, well, it was a case of bad apples, it was limited to a particular circumstance, a particular person, a particular unit, and you get crazy people everywhere. What are you going to do? It’s never been presented as systemic. Today, we have a history so we can look back and if we do pay attention, and if we do read the literature, and we do listen to Palestinians — And today there’s this great NGO called Zochrot, which its mission is to maintain the memory of the towns and cities that were destroyed in 1948 and to revive the stories of what took place in 1948 — They are uncovering new massacres all the time. Because as that generation is dying off, both the Israelis who committed the crimes and the Palestinians who were still alive at the time and survived, are opening up and telling more and more stories.
This HuffPo article got a rxn from WH that the quotes aren’t true, and the journo who wrote this piece have categorically denied this: A Top Biden Official Is Pushing An Urgent Post-Gaza Plan That’s Alarming Some Insiders
posted by cendawanita at 11:14 PM on January 14 [18 favorites]
(MSNBC) 'Stunned, angry, and infuriated': Journalists address US silence on colleagues killed in Gaza - According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, 82 journalists and media workers have died since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7th, making this war the deadliest in modern history for journalists. Hamza Al-Dahdouh and Mustafa Thuraya are the latest journalists to be killed in the war. Hamza is the son of Al Jazeera’s Gaza Bureau Chief Wael Al-Dahdouh, who had already lost his wife, daughter, another son, and grandson in an Israeli airstrike. Al-Dahdouh vows to continue reporting through his pain and loss.
(New Lines) The Unprecedented Killing of Journalists Is Affecting Coverage of Gaza
Abdallah had been livestreaming when the attack came. The first tank missile’s impact, visible on camera, killed him instantly. Ali Hashem, a correspondent with Al Jazeera, told me he was with Abdallah just before the attack. By chance, he and Ramez El Kadi — a correspondent with New TV, an independent news station in Lebanon — moved to a separate location an hour before the first shell hit. On their way, Abdallah sent El Kadi a message, warning them about the danger of where they were headed.
“Imagine that,” Hashem said. “The guy who was so cautious was killed in the end.”
Shahrour later told me that, at Abdallah’s burial, he cycled, uncontrollably, between laughter and sobs. “What is happening?” he thought to himself. “You’ve become a part of the news.” He had not yet slept; he had been up all night working to get Abdallah’s death certificate notarized. In a Nov. 13 Instagram post memorializing Abdallah, Assi wrote that, only a day before the attack, Abdallah told Dylan Collins, a colleague at AFP, that he didn’t want to cover conflicts anymore. Now, he was permanently tied to the war.
[...]What’s more, a hesitancy among Western publications to assign blame for these attacks to Israel (it took Reuters, for example, 55 days to conclude that Israel killed Abdallah) has forced journalists to more readily advocate for their slain colleagues. Bereavement, then, has not been the only shift. The sheer scale of media targeting has jarred journalism in the region, blurring the lines of advocacy, reporting and grief.
It has also revealed internal challenges in some of the reporting emerging out of the Arab world. Diana Moukalled, the co-founder of Daraj Media and a friend of both Abdallah and Shahrour, has felt that a nuanced approach, one that acknowledges the atrocities of the Israeli occupation but asks questions of Palestinian armed groups — that interrogates, for example, whether those groups have asked too much of the Gazan community — has been missing.
[...] “The priority should be on ending the killing. We’re pushing people to be steadfast, but they don’t have the resources for that,” she said, referring to what she perceives as the local media’s propensity to focus on the resilience of Palestinians rather than to question the underlying narrative of resilience and who, if anyone, has benefited from it. It’s a difficult proposition: Conceding anything to an Israeli state that has been unrelenting in its bombardment and collective punishment could be seen as ambivalence toward the ongoing atrocity. But does that leave room for gradation in the coverage? “I don’t think it can be done,” Moukalled said.
[...] But separating grief and critical analysis was challenging. During his first appearance on New TV, the host’s first question broke any stoicism still enduring in Shahrour’s expression.
“How are we doing?” she asked him. Already, he was fighting tears. “It has been the hardest 48 hours of my life,” he said, his voice breaking.
After that, Shahrour continued to give on-air interviews nearly every day for two weeks. He said not only that the attack on Abdallah was the result of what the Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate has described as Israel’s calculated targeting of journalists, an egregious war crime in and of itself, but also that it appears as if the mere presence of an Al Jazeera satellite news gathering (SNG) vehicle sufficed to inspire the missile strike. Based on Shahrour’s own assessment, Israel appeared to be strategically targeting and attempting to silence its most popular media critic, as if to literally fight the war of narratives using lethal force. Indeed, three weeks after Abdallah was killed in the tank strike on Alma al-Shaab, a similar bombardment occurred in Yaroun, where an Israeli airstrike narrowly missed a number of news crews stationed in the southern Lebanese town. Among them, again, was an Al Jazeera van. The response to these attacks, Shahrour said, has also revealed a polarization in the war’s reporting between Western media, which has largely underreported it, and Arab media, which has not missed reporting on any killing. The extremity of this dichotomy is new.
The dividing lines, Shahrour told me, have never been this obvious. Before Reuters reported that an Israeli strike killed Abdallah, its initial statement appeared to pussyfoot around the issue, saying only that Abdallah was “killed in missile fire from [the] direction of Israel.” For Shahrour, the use of the passive voice and ambiguous language was the kind of journalistic failure that has become too common in coverage of the region by Western media.
[...] Of this opaque border-blaming, Shahrour joked facetiously: “This leads to three conclusions. Either Israel killed him, or Hamas somehow shot a missile into south Lebanon, or maybe my aunt-in-law actually did it. I mean it’s unbelievable.”
The passivity has sullied the respect that Shahrour once personally held for certain Western institutions.
“There are Western reporters for whom we were excited when they received a platform, who now we can’t trust, who seem to know nothing about media ethics and who have been held up as the standard for the latter,” he said.
[...] Hamdalla seems, also, to be growing disillusioned with the ability of local reporting to inspire change among Western and other international political actors. We were exchanging audio messages on the morning of Dec. 15, shortly after Samer Abu Daqqa, the Al Jazeera cameraman, had been shot. By then, he had been bleeding out for five hours and 15 minutes. Hamdalla was in a sort of simmering panic; Al Jazeera had been trying to contact the Red Cross, asking them to mediate a safe passage with Israel for medical assistance to reach Abu Daqqa. The Red Cross, she said, was refusing to get involved. “I guess we need journalists from Europe and America to challenge them and ask them why they’re behaving in this way,” she said, fighting back tears.
The number of media deaths had doubled since the first time we spoke in early December. The urgency in her demands was notably more desperate, as she insisted that international organizations — like the Red Cross — had given up on Gaza, and that, by doing so, they had become complicit in the bombardment. Over a series of WhatsApp audio messages, she pleaded, “Our reporters in Gaza have been trying to talk about this, but nobody has listened.” A single Red Crescent ambulance was trying to make its way to Abu Daqqa but, according to Wael al-Dahdouh, Al Jazeera’s Gaza bureau chief, it came under Israeli fire and retreated. Dahdouh himself has also endured immense loss, including the killing of his wife, their grandchild, their 7-year-old daughter and their 15-year-old son. On Jan. 7, Wael’s eldest child, Hamza — a fellow journalist at Al Jazeera — was also killed in an Israeli missile strike.
In the midst of the action, I asked Hamdalla if she was free to call. After a long pause, she replied, instead, with a photo of Abu Daqqa and another audio message.
“Samer died. Samer’s dead,” she was crying. “For six hours he was bleeding on air, every camera in the world recording him, and there’s not a paramedic who dared come help him.”
(Guardian - Chris McGreal opinion) Israel is murdering Palestinian journalists in Gaza. Where is the outrage?
In 2003, an Israeli soldier shot dead the British documentary cameraman James Miller in Gaza. An inquest in the UK returned a verdict of unlawful killing. Israel declined to prosecute the soldier responsible but it did pay £1.5m in compensation, which Miller’s family said was “probably the closest we’ll get to an admission of guilt on the part of the Israelis”.
Miller’s killing looked to be part of a pattern of ill-disciplined Israeli soldiers shooting whoever they felt like – not only journalists but UN officials and aid workers as well as Palestinian children. The army was usually quick to try to cover up the killings but it did not appear they were coordinated.
[...] Miller’s family got a payout because he was British. Dead western journalists create more waves, which is presumably one of the reasons Israel has locked the foreign press out of Gaza during the present war. International news organisations now rely on those same Palestinian reporters targeted by Israel. They provide many of the pictures the rest of the world sees of the horror in Gaza.
It is therefore troubling that while western newspapers and television stations have reported the rising numbers of deaths of journalists in Gaza, many news organisations appear unwilling to directly address the pattern of killing that, as the CPJ’s evidence appears to show, provides strong evidence of a war crime. It would surely be different if American or European reporters were the ones dying.
(The Intercept) Coverage of Gaza War in the New York Times and Other Major Newspapers Heavily Favored Israel, Analysis Shows
The New York Times, Washington Post, and Los Angeles Times’s coverage of Israel’s war on Gaza showed a consistent bias against Palestinians, according to an Intercept analysis of major media coverage.
The print media outlets, which play an influential role in shaping U.S. views of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, paid little attention to the unprecedented impact of Israel’s siege and bombing campaign on both children and journalists in the Gaza Strip.
Major U.S. newspapers disproportionately emphasized Israeli deaths in the conflict; used emotive language to describe the killings of Israelis, but not Palestinians; and offered lopsided coverage of antisemitic acts in the U.S., while largely ignoring anti-Muslim racism in the wake of October 7. Pro-Palestinian activists have accused major publications of pro-Israel bias, with the New York Times seeing protests Opens in a new tabat its headquarters in Manhattan for its coverage of Gaza –– an accusation supported by our analysis.
The open-source analysis focuses on the first six weeks of the conflict, from the October 7 Hamas-led attacks that killed 1,139 IsraelisOpens in a new tab and foreign workers to November 24, the beginning of the weeklong “humanitarian truce” agreed to by both parties to facilitate hostage exchanges. During this period, 14,800 Palestinians, including more than 6,000 children, were killed by Israel’s bombardment of Gaza. Today, the Palestinian death toll is over 22,000.
The Intercept collected more than 1,000 articles from the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Los Angeles Times about Israel’s war on Gaza and tallied up the usages of certain key terms and the context in which they were used. The tallies reveal a gross imbalance in the way Israelis and pro-Israel figures are covered versus Palestinians and pro-Palestinian voices — with usages that favor Israeli narratives over Palestinian ones.
This anti-Palestinian bias in print media tracks with a similar survey of U.S. cable news that the authors conducted last month for The ColumnOpens in a new tab that found an even wider disparity.
Canada: (Breach Media) CBC says killing of Palestinians doesn’t merit terms ‘murderous,’ ‘brutal’ - In response to complaints about its coverage, CBC says Israeli state violence is different than Hamas’ violence because the killing of Palestinians happens “remotely”
In a letter responding to a complaint filed by a reader, the public broadcaster acknowledged that they’ve used terms like “murderous,” “vicious,” “brutal,” “massacre,” and “slaughter” to refer only to Hamas’s attack on Israelis on Oct. 7.
But when it comes to the Israeli army’s bombing of Palestinians, which has killed more than 22,600 people as of Friday, CBC says they prefer to use terms like “intensive,” “unrelenting,” and “punishing.”
The more evocative and sympathy-generating terms don’t apply to Palestinian deaths, CBC argues, because Israel carries out its killings “remotely” instead of face-to-face.
CBC launched its highly revealing defence in an email reply to Jeff Winch, a retired professor at Humber College who had filed four complaints about CBC’s coverage with the CRTC, Canada’s telecoms regulator.
(Democracy Now) Palestinian Journalists’ Syndicate: Israel Is Targeting Media in Gaza to Hide Its Atrocities from the World
LA Legault: (thread with video at the end)
A lawyer I know working in immigration & refugee law in #Canada 🇨🇦 said we’re requiring Palestinians 🇵🇸 to provide all their social media information and that they have to consent to share their entire informtion package with Israel 🇮🇱!!! Also that we are only accepting 1,000 family members 😳.
(In contrast we accepted 940,000 from Ukraine)
Why on earth would we share their information with Israel?
Also from LA Legault: Gideon Levy, one of Israel’s most prominent journalists was on the BBC’s HardTalk this week calling for BDS.
He said he loves his country but it will not change internally and external financial pressure is needed to end the occupation.
— I have no access as it’s only on UK-only iPlayer and they haven't been keeping up with their yt channel.
I can read this though: If It Isn't a Genocide in Gaza, Then What Is It?
And what to make of the remarks of the head of the Israeli defense team, Prof. Malcolm Shaw: "The actions of Israel are proportionate and only target armed forces"? But what about the truth? Proportionate with such destruction? If that is what proportionate looks like, what does disproportionate look like? Hiroshima?
"Only against armed forces," with near multitudes of dead children? What is he talking about? "Making phone calls to evacuate the uninvolved"; who still has an operating telephone in Gaza and exactly where are they supposed to evacuate in this hell where not a single piece of safe ground remains? And the ultimate: "Even if soldiers violated the laws governing war, that will be heard by the Israeli legal system."
Shaw apparently has not heard about the Israeli legal system and even less about what is called the military legal system. He has not heard that after Operation Cast Lead, the 2008-2009 conflict with Gaza, only four soldiers were indicted for criminal offenses and only one of them was sent to prison for the misdemeanor theft of a credit card (!). All the others hurling shells and bombs at the innocent will never be indicted.
And what about the remarks of Dr. Galit Rejwan, the weekend discovery who will undoubtedly be chosen to light this year's torch at the Independence Day ceremony on Mount Herzl: "The IDF is moving hospitals to a safer place." Will Shifa be moved to Sheba? Rantisi to Soroka? What safe places in Gaza is she talking about and which hospitals will the IDF move?
None of this of course proves that Israel has committed genocide. The court will decide that. But to feel good about such arguments for the defense? To feel good after The Hague? To feel good after Gaza?
Raphael Mimoun:
Based on my conversation with Israeli friends and relatives--including many who call themselves "progressive" and "pro-peace"--this cartoon perfectly sums up how they see things.
This shows, more clearly than ever, that only external pressure can end violence & apartheid.
[cartoon is of a judge with a magnifying glass aimed at an IDF soldier. Judge says, quiet! I am looking for Genocide. He’s saying that to a mob of Islamist terrorists behind him holding antisemitic placards as well as “more 7.10”]
He links to his 2021 post, Zionism cannot produce a just peace. Only external pressure can end the Israeli apartheid:
Zionism is rooted in trauma and fear. It’s about survival and love for the Jewish people. But like any other ethnic nationalism, Zionism establishes a hierarchy: It’s about prioritizing our safety and well-being, even at the expense of others. It relies on an alternate historical narrative that justifies the occupation and rationalizes the status quo. And it cannot produce a just peace on its own.
The Israeli occupation of the West Bank is, by every definition, apartheid: two legal systems for two ethnic groups. If a Jew and an Arab commit the exact same crime in the West Bank, the Jew will face a civil court; the Arab, a military court. But most Israelis can’t fathom this as unjust. They fight the term “apartheid” because they genuinely believe that the discrimination is legitimate and a matter of self-defense.
[...] Of course, some Israelis reject these narratives and actively campaign for Palestinian liberation. But those make up a minority. The average Israeli doesn’t contend with what it means to live out an occupation on a daily basis: having to submit to foreign troops at checkpoints, requiring a permit for any and all matters from a government that doesn’t represent you, knowing that soldiers can invade your home or seize your property with no accountability.
The only thing that can bring about Palestinian liberation is if the cost of the occupation begins to outweigh its benefits to Israel. That would require, as it did for other apartheids and occupations, massive external pressure. In South Africa, international sanctions, an arms embargo and a global boycott forced the collapse of the racist regime. The brutal occupation of East Timor by Indonesia was ended by a global solidarity movement and international pressure. In the American South, it was legislation and Supreme Court decisions that imposed equal rights and ended the racial segregation of Jim Crow.
Speaking of those: ‘It is a time of witch hunts in Israel’: teacher held in solitary confinement for posting concern about Gaza deaths
“Most Israelis don’t know much about Palestinians. They think they are terrorists, all of them, or vague images with no names, no faces, no family, no homes, no hopes,” Baruchin said. “What I am trying to do in my posts is present Palestinians as human beings.”
Ten days after that Facebook message, he was fired from his teaching job in Petach Tikvah municipality. Less than a month later he was in a high-security jail, detained to give police more time to investigate critical views he had never tried to hide.
Inside Israel, veteran journalists, intellectuals and rights activists say, there is little public space for dissent about the war in Gaza, even three months into an offensive that has killed 23,000 Palestinians and has no end in sight. “Make no mistake: Baruchin was used as a political tool to send a political message. The motive for his arrest was deterrence – silencing any criticism or any hint of protest against Israeli policy,” the long-established Haaretz newspaper said in an editorial.
He is not the only teacher to be targeted. Authorities also summoned Yael Ayalon, head of a Tel Aviv high school, after she shared a Haaretz article warning that Israeli media was hiding the suffering of Gaza’s civilians. “Israeli citizens need to be aware of this reality,” the piece said.
Her students rioted in the school after news of the post spread; she took her employers to a tribunal and was reinstated, but when she returned to school she was attacked again by students chanting “go home”. She declined to speak to the Observer.
[...] Baruchin believes he is the only Jewish Israeli to have been detained for denouncing civilian deaths in Gaza, but this would not be unusual if he was a Palestinian citizen of Israel.
Hundreds have been arrested and jailed, or lost jobs or access to education because of social media posts. The judge who put Baruchin in prison drew an explicit comparison. “Had an Arab resident made the post, the danger would have been clear. I do not believe that there is room for differentiating between an Arab post and a Jewish post.”
[...] “I wasn’t allowed to take anything with me to the cell,” he says. “I walked in with my clothes on and stayed with the same clothes for four days. There were cold-water showers, a tiny piece of soap, two blankets stinking from cigarette smoke and a tiny towel.
“I was not allowed a book, TV or anything. The wardens were not allowed to talk to me and there were no windows, so I didn’t know daytime from night-time. My watch was taken away.
“In order not to go crazy I exercised every one and a half to two hours. Every time the warden came to check I asked what time it was, to calculate how much is left.”
He was interrogated again before a second judge ordered his release. Questioners told him his posts were like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, among the most famously antisemitic documents in the world. “I’m a history teacher, so I asked, ‘Did you ever read them?’ They didn’t respond.”
When his name is clear, Baruchin plans to sue Israeli media who reported police charges without asking for his response or looking for evidence, and accused him of justifying and legitimising Hamas.
He says he has not been traumatised by the experience, as for him the fate of Palestinian civilians and Israeli hostages in Gaza is much more disturbing. He still follows what is happening there closely, and flicks on his phone through images of the recent dead, a journalist, a violinist, a baby.
Transcript of interview with Miko Peled (by Chris Hedges): The IDF’s war crimes are a perfect reflection of Israeli society
Miko Peled, author and former member of IDF Special Forces, explains how Israel indoctrinates its citizens in anti-Palestinian racism from the cradle to the grave.
[...] The myth that I was… Again, this was given to me in larger doses at home because my father and his comrades were all part of the 1948 mythology. We were small and we were resourceful, and we were clever, and therefore, in 1948, we were able to defeat these Arab armies and these Arab killers who came to try to kill us and so on and destroy our fledgling little Jewish state. And because of our heroism — And you talked about the biblical connection — Because we are the descendants of King David, and we are the descendants of the Maccabees, and we have this resourcefulness and strength in our genes, we were able to create a state and then every time they attacked, we were there. We were able to defend ourselves and prevail and so on. It’s everywhere. Then again, in my case, it’s every time the larger, more extended family got together or my parents got together with their friends. And in many cases, the fathers were also comrades in arms.
The stories of the battles, the stories of the conquests; Every city in Israel has an IDF plaza. Street names after different units of different generals are all over the country, street names of battles, so it’s everywhere. It wasn’t until I was probably 40 or a little less than 40, that it was the first time that I encountered the other narrative, the Palestinian story, and it was unbelievable. Somebody was telling me the day is night and night is day, or the world is flat, or whatever the comparison you want to make, it was incredible. They are telling me that what I know to be true ’cause I heard it in school and I read it in books, and I heard it from my father and from my mother and from friends, that all of this is not true. And what you find out if you go along the path that I chose to take, this journey of an Israeli to Palestine, is that it was one horrifying crime against humanity.
That’s what this so-called heroism really was, it was no heroism at all. It was a well-trained, highly motivated, well-indoctrinated, well-armed militia which then became the IDF. But when it started, it was still a militia or today they would be called a terrorist organization, that went up against the people who had never had a military force, who never had a tank, who never had a warplane, who never prepared, even remotely, for battle or for an assault. Then you have to make a choice: How do you bridge this? The differences are not nuanced, the differences are enormous. The choice that I made is to investigate for myself and find out who’s telling the truth and who isn’t. And my side was not telling the truth
[...]My generation, we knew that there were several instances of bad apples that committed terrible crimes. And we admitted, so there was Deir Yassin, which was a village on the outskirts of Jerusalem, a peaceful village where a horrible massacre took place. Then we knew that Ariel Sharon was a bit of a lunatic and he took the commandos that he commanded in the ’50s and went to the West Bank and went into Gaza and committed acts of terrible massacres. He was still a hero, held in high regard by everyone, but we knew that there were certain instances… And every military, every nation makes its mistakes and then these things happen But there was never any sense that this somehow discounted or hurt the image of us being a moral army.
There are lots of stories of how soldiers went and they decided to, out of the kindness of their heart, they didn’t harm civilians. And those same civilians went and then warned the enemy that they were coming. And these same good Israeli soldiers would then pay the price and were killed. So it’s presented as limited cases. Nakba was not something that was ever discussed. I’m sure it’s not discussed today, certainly not in schools. In Israeli schools today, you’re not allowed to mention the Nakba. There’s a directive by the Ministry of Education that even Palestinians are not allowed to mention the Nakba. But nobody ever talked about that. And the Arabs left, what are you going to do? There was a war and all these people left and this is the way it is.
So none of that ever hurt, in any way, the image of us being this glorious heroic army, descendants of King David, and other great traditions of Jewish heroism, none of that ever, ever hurt itself. So there’s no trauma because we did nothing wrong. If somebody did something wrong, well, it was a case of bad apples, it was limited to a particular circumstance, a particular person, a particular unit, and you get crazy people everywhere. What are you going to do? It’s never been presented as systemic. Today, we have a history so we can look back and if we do pay attention, and if we do read the literature, and we do listen to Palestinians — And today there’s this great NGO called Zochrot, which its mission is to maintain the memory of the towns and cities that were destroyed in 1948 and to revive the stories of what took place in 1948 — They are uncovering new massacres all the time. Because as that generation is dying off, both the Israelis who committed the crimes and the Palestinians who were still alive at the time and survived, are opening up and telling more and more stories.
This HuffPo article got a rxn from WH that the quotes aren’t true, and the journo who wrote this piece have categorically denied this: A Top Biden Official Is Pushing An Urgent Post-Gaza Plan That’s Alarming Some Insiders
posted by cendawanita at 11:14 PM on January 14 [18 favorites]
On 'Bear Hugs'
(AP) Cumbersome process and ‘arbitrary’ Israeli inspections slow aid delivery into Gaza, US senators say
Still, the rate of trucks entering has not risen significantly. This week, an average of around 120 trucks a day entered through Rafah and Kerem Shalom, according to U.N. figures, far below the 500 trucks of goods going in daily before the war and far below what aid groups say is needed.
Other than the trickle of aid through the crossings, Israel has barred the entry of supplies since its assault on Gaza began three months ago, aiming to destroy Hamas after its Oct. 7 attack on Israel.
The result has been a humanitarian catastrophe for the territory’s 2.3 million Palestinians.
[...]Trucks carrying aid cargos can wait for weeks at the border for their turn to be processed, they said they were told by aid officials. They enter the Egyptian side of the border, drive along no-man’s land to the Israeli facility at Nitzana for inspection by the military, then return to Rafah to cross into Gaza — or go to Kerem Shalom for inspection and entry there.
Kerem Shalom operates eight hours a day, and both it and Nitzana close part of Friday and all Saturday. “This, in a 24-hour-a day” humanitarian crisis, Van Hollen said.
Israel says the inspections are necessary to prevent items of military use from reaching Hamas.
During the process, cargos are unloaded and reloaded several times. If inspectors reject a single item in a truck, it must return with its entire cargo to be re-packaged, starting the weeks-long process all over again, said Van Hollen, a Democrat from Maryland.
The reasons for rejection are often “very vague, and they are conveyed informally. Sometimes they were very unreasonable,” said Merkley, a Democrat from Oregon.
The two senators said they saw a warehouse in Rafah filled with material that had been rejected in inspection. It included oxygen cylinders, gas-powered generators, tents and medical kits used in delivering babies.
Aid workers told the senators the tents were refused because they included metal poles, and the medical kits because they included scalpels. Most solar-powered equipment appears to be barred — though it is vital in Gaza, where central electricity has collapsed and fuel for generators is in short supply.
“The warehouse was a testament to the arbitrariness” of the process, Van Hollen said.
There is a process for pre-approving cargos, but it can take weeks, they said, and even items that obtained prior approval are sometimes rejected during inspection. After inspection, trucks are considered “sanitized” and their drivers are not allowed to interact with anyone; the senators said they were told one truck driver was turned back after someone brought him a cup of coffee, violating the rule.
The process is “completely incompatible” with a humanitarian crisis of this extent, Merkley said. “There has to be a simplified process” that honors Israel’s concerns over potential military uses of goods but also addresses the scale of the situation, he said.
The senators, who both sit on the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee, said they were drawing up recommendations for changes.
(Guardian; Naomi Klein opinion): We have a tool to stop Israel’s war crimes: BDS
Still, many wouldn’t go there. I understood why the tactic felt fraught. There is a long and painful history of Jewish businesses and institutions being targeted by antisemites. The communications experts who lobby on Israel’s behalf know how to weaponize this trauma, so they invariably cast campaigns designed to challenge Israel’s discriminatory and violent policies as hateful attacks on Jews as an identity group.
For two decades, widespread fear stemming from that false equation has shielded Israel from facing the full potential of a BDS movement – and now, as the international court of justice hears South Africa’s devastating compendium of evidence of Israel committing the crime of genocide in Gaza, it truly is enough.
From bus boycotts to fossil fuel divestment, BDS tactics have a well-documented history as the most potent weapons in the nonviolent arsenal. Picking them up and using them at this turning point for humanity is a moral obligation.
The responsibility is particularly acute for those of us whose governments continue to actively aid Israel with deadly weapons, lucrative trade deals and vetoes at the United Nations. As BDS reminds us, we do not have to let those bankrupt agreements speak for us unchallenged.
Groups of organized consumers have the power to boycott companies that invest in illegal settlements, or power Israeli weapons. Trade unions can push their pension funds to divest from those firms. Municipal governments can select contractors based on ethical criteria that forbid these relationships. As Omar Barghouti, one of the founders and leaders of the BDS movement, reminds us: “The most profound ethical obligation in these times is to act to end complicity. Only thus can we truly hope to end oppression and violence.”
[...] When I wrote my original BDS column, the overwhelming mainstream consensus was that the South African analogy was inappropriate and that the word “apartheid”, which was being used by Palestinian legal scholars, activists and human rights organizations, was needlessly inflammatory. Now, everyone from Human Rights Watch to Amnesty International to the leading Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem have done their own careful studies and come to the inescapable conclusion that apartheid is indeed the correct legal term to describe the conditions under which Israelis and Palestinians lead starkly unequal and segregated lives. Even Tamir Pardo, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency, conceded the point: “There is an apartheid state here,” he said in September. “In a territory where two people are judged under two legal systems, that is an apartheid state.”
Moreover, many also now understand that apartheid exists not only in the occupied territories, but inside Israel’s 1948 borders, a case laid out in a major 2022 report from a coalition of Palestinian human rights groups convened by Al-Haq. It’s hard to argue otherwise when Israel’s current far-right government came to power under a coalition agreement that states: “The Jewish people have an exclusive and unquestionable right to all areas of the Land of Israel … the Galilee, the Negev, the Golan, Judea and Samaria.”
When impunity reigns, everything shifts and moves, including the colonial frontier. Nothing stays static.
Then there is Gaza. The numbers of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead felt unfathomable at the time. We soon learned that it was not a one-off. Instead, it ushered in a murderous new policy that Israeli military officials casually referred to as “mowing the grass”: every couple of years brought a fresh bombing campaign, killing hundreds of Palestinians or, in the case of 2014’s Operation Protective Edge, more than 2,000, including 526 children.
Those numbers shocked again, and sparked a new wave of protests. It still wasn’t enough to strip Israel of its impunity, which continued to be protected by the US’s reliable UN veto, plus the steady flow of arms. More corrosive than the lack of international sanctions have been the rewards: in recent years, alongside all of this lawlessness, Washington has recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and then moved its embassy there. It also brokered the so-called Abraham accords, which ushered in lucrative normalization agreements between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco.
[...] Where were Palestinian rights and aspirations in all these deals? Absolutely nowhere. Because the other thing that had shifted during these years of impunity was any pretext that Israel intended to return to the negotiating table. The clear goal was crushing the Palestinian movement for self-determination through force, alongside physical and political isolation and fragmentation.
(Middle East Eye) War on Gaza: Internal anger with Biden and Congress reaches boiling point
But anger and dissent aren't limited to the progressive camp. Middle East Eye spoke to congressional staffers from several offices across both chambers, as well as several staffers working in the Biden administration who say that frustration towards Biden and Congress has reached a boiling point.
"The level of anger at Joe Biden is now comparable to the level of anger at Donald Trump," one progressive Capitol Hill staffer told Middle East Eye on the night the US conducted the first strikes on Yemen.
"The idea that he would do that and then ask us to vote for him is ludicrous," the staffer said. "I don't know what planet they are operating on, but this is not how you win in November.”
[...] Since 7 October, one White House staff member told Middle East Eye that she has had a letter of resignation typed up and ready to send. Each day, she takes a look at it, wondering whether it will be the day she decides to leave.
"The only reason a lot of us had for staying is, if we're not here, who will be at least advocating. I think that's what's held a few of us back, but that one specific cause is slowly - it's fading away. There's not much else left," the staffer told MEE.
"There's nothing really tying us to want to stay here and also make us feel even more complicit."
The staffer's experience and feelings resemble many others across the administration who decided to join the Biden administration to work on a number of domestic policy issues such as education or the environment. But now, each day the war continues, they see working there as risking complicity in Biden's fervent support for the war, even as Israel has been brought to The Hague to defend itself against accusations of genocide.
"Staffers feel demoralised, and they feel disconnected, kind of appalled and very uncomfortable working for this president," another White House staffer said.
"It's very difficult to continue to work here.”
[...] The morale of staff in the White House is so low that the chief of staff planned a party in the hopes of cheering up the employees, according to a report from Axios.
😌
Economist: Israel has yet to destroy even half of Gaza’s tunnels
But senior officers admit they will not be able to destroy the entirety of Gaza’s tunnel network. The time Israel has for large-scale operations in Gaza city is running out. International pressure to scale down the war, particularly from America, is forcing Israel to begin withdrawing troops. So is the need to allow hundreds of thousands of reservists, who have been in uniform for over three months, to return to civilian life. Israel faces growing calls to allow more than 1m Palestinians displaced from northern Gaza to start returning there. That is not possible while the idf is still blowing up tunnels.
Meanwhile, another IDF division is fighting in and around Khan Younis, the second-largest city in the Gaza Strip, where Israeli intelligence believes the leader of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, is holed up along with more than 100 Israeli hostages. The campaign in Khan Younis began on December 1st and has yet to deliver any tangible results. “The problem is that they are trying to achieve three different objectives,” says one veteran commander. “To destroy Hamas’s Khan Younis brigade; to eliminate Sinwar; and to rescue the hostages. Each of these missions requires a different tactical approach, but they’re trying to do all three at once.”
(The Nation) Israel Is Not Promising to “Scale Back” Its War - As the US secretary of state shuttles to stop the war from expanding, the Israeli defense minister vows “months” more war on Gaza and suggests taking the fight to Iran.
Yanyway: Ex-Shin Bet head says Israel should negotiate with jailed intifada leader - Israel will not have security until Palestinians have their own state, Ami Ayalon says in Guardian interview -
He came out earlier on Haaretz (about a week ago) with a similar position.
(The Hill) Sanders says Gaza ‘is worse than’ what happened in Dresden during WWII
Ken Klippenstein: Biden Secretly Giving Targeting Support to Israel Amid Genocide Case -
Why do we have to rely on FOIA to piece together our government's foreign policy??
--
The Biden administration is quietly providing intelligence to Israel for targeting purposes, deploying U.S. Air Force “intelligence engagement officers on the ground,” according to a deployment order obtained under the Freedom of Information Act and published at The Intercept.
Officially, the Biden administration has only admitted to providing intelligence to Israel for hostage rescue operations, which are obviously less controversial politically than offensive targeting. The revelation comes at a time when the International Court of Justice is opening extraordinary hearings on a genocide case against Israel brought by the country of South Africa.
The deployment order, dated November 21, 2023, was issued by Pentagon’s air component command for the Middle East, Air Forces Central (for Central Command). The document provides deployment instructions to airmen sent to the country, including “airmen assigned as the Intelligence Engagement Officer (IEO)” — personnel who specialize in sharing sensitive intelligence with partner militaries.
That we’re forced to rely on random FOIA documents to piece together the truth of our country’s foreign policy — including such basic facts as where U.S. servicemembers are being sent — is a stain on the Biden administration, whose policies regarding Israel have been shrouded in secrecy. And while transparency is certainly never the national security state’s forte, its secrecy on the subject of Israeli is just off the spectrum.
Australia: (SMH) ABC federal politics reporter resigns over Gaza coverage
(Juan Cole) In Blow to Democracy, British Parliament Votes to Outlaw University and Council Boycotts of Israel amid Gaza Genocide
posted by cendawanita at 11:35 PM on January 14 [12 favorites]
(AP) Cumbersome process and ‘arbitrary’ Israeli inspections slow aid delivery into Gaza, US senators say
Still, the rate of trucks entering has not risen significantly. This week, an average of around 120 trucks a day entered through Rafah and Kerem Shalom, according to U.N. figures, far below the 500 trucks of goods going in daily before the war and far below what aid groups say is needed.
Other than the trickle of aid through the crossings, Israel has barred the entry of supplies since its assault on Gaza began three months ago, aiming to destroy Hamas after its Oct. 7 attack on Israel.
The result has been a humanitarian catastrophe for the territory’s 2.3 million Palestinians.
[...]Trucks carrying aid cargos can wait for weeks at the border for their turn to be processed, they said they were told by aid officials. They enter the Egyptian side of the border, drive along no-man’s land to the Israeli facility at Nitzana for inspection by the military, then return to Rafah to cross into Gaza — or go to Kerem Shalom for inspection and entry there.
Kerem Shalom operates eight hours a day, and both it and Nitzana close part of Friday and all Saturday. “This, in a 24-hour-a day” humanitarian crisis, Van Hollen said.
Israel says the inspections are necessary to prevent items of military use from reaching Hamas.
During the process, cargos are unloaded and reloaded several times. If inspectors reject a single item in a truck, it must return with its entire cargo to be re-packaged, starting the weeks-long process all over again, said Van Hollen, a Democrat from Maryland.
The reasons for rejection are often “very vague, and they are conveyed informally. Sometimes they were very unreasonable,” said Merkley, a Democrat from Oregon.
The two senators said they saw a warehouse in Rafah filled with material that had been rejected in inspection. It included oxygen cylinders, gas-powered generators, tents and medical kits used in delivering babies.
Aid workers told the senators the tents were refused because they included metal poles, and the medical kits because they included scalpels. Most solar-powered equipment appears to be barred — though it is vital in Gaza, where central electricity has collapsed and fuel for generators is in short supply.
“The warehouse was a testament to the arbitrariness” of the process, Van Hollen said.
There is a process for pre-approving cargos, but it can take weeks, they said, and even items that obtained prior approval are sometimes rejected during inspection. After inspection, trucks are considered “sanitized” and their drivers are not allowed to interact with anyone; the senators said they were told one truck driver was turned back after someone brought him a cup of coffee, violating the rule.
The process is “completely incompatible” with a humanitarian crisis of this extent, Merkley said. “There has to be a simplified process” that honors Israel’s concerns over potential military uses of goods but also addresses the scale of the situation, he said.
The senators, who both sit on the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee, said they were drawing up recommendations for changes.
(Guardian; Naomi Klein opinion): We have a tool to stop Israel’s war crimes: BDS
Still, many wouldn’t go there. I understood why the tactic felt fraught. There is a long and painful history of Jewish businesses and institutions being targeted by antisemites. The communications experts who lobby on Israel’s behalf know how to weaponize this trauma, so they invariably cast campaigns designed to challenge Israel’s discriminatory and violent policies as hateful attacks on Jews as an identity group.
For two decades, widespread fear stemming from that false equation has shielded Israel from facing the full potential of a BDS movement – and now, as the international court of justice hears South Africa’s devastating compendium of evidence of Israel committing the crime of genocide in Gaza, it truly is enough.
From bus boycotts to fossil fuel divestment, BDS tactics have a well-documented history as the most potent weapons in the nonviolent arsenal. Picking them up and using them at this turning point for humanity is a moral obligation.
The responsibility is particularly acute for those of us whose governments continue to actively aid Israel with deadly weapons, lucrative trade deals and vetoes at the United Nations. As BDS reminds us, we do not have to let those bankrupt agreements speak for us unchallenged.
Groups of organized consumers have the power to boycott companies that invest in illegal settlements, or power Israeli weapons. Trade unions can push their pension funds to divest from those firms. Municipal governments can select contractors based on ethical criteria that forbid these relationships. As Omar Barghouti, one of the founders and leaders of the BDS movement, reminds us: “The most profound ethical obligation in these times is to act to end complicity. Only thus can we truly hope to end oppression and violence.”
[...] When I wrote my original BDS column, the overwhelming mainstream consensus was that the South African analogy was inappropriate and that the word “apartheid”, which was being used by Palestinian legal scholars, activists and human rights organizations, was needlessly inflammatory. Now, everyone from Human Rights Watch to Amnesty International to the leading Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem have done their own careful studies and come to the inescapable conclusion that apartheid is indeed the correct legal term to describe the conditions under which Israelis and Palestinians lead starkly unequal and segregated lives. Even Tamir Pardo, the former head of the Mossad intelligence agency, conceded the point: “There is an apartheid state here,” he said in September. “In a territory where two people are judged under two legal systems, that is an apartheid state.”
Moreover, many also now understand that apartheid exists not only in the occupied territories, but inside Israel’s 1948 borders, a case laid out in a major 2022 report from a coalition of Palestinian human rights groups convened by Al-Haq. It’s hard to argue otherwise when Israel’s current far-right government came to power under a coalition agreement that states: “The Jewish people have an exclusive and unquestionable right to all areas of the Land of Israel … the Galilee, the Negev, the Golan, Judea and Samaria.”
When impunity reigns, everything shifts and moves, including the colonial frontier. Nothing stays static.
Then there is Gaza. The numbers of Palestinians killed in Operation Cast Lead felt unfathomable at the time. We soon learned that it was not a one-off. Instead, it ushered in a murderous new policy that Israeli military officials casually referred to as “mowing the grass”: every couple of years brought a fresh bombing campaign, killing hundreds of Palestinians or, in the case of 2014’s Operation Protective Edge, more than 2,000, including 526 children.
Those numbers shocked again, and sparked a new wave of protests. It still wasn’t enough to strip Israel of its impunity, which continued to be protected by the US’s reliable UN veto, plus the steady flow of arms. More corrosive than the lack of international sanctions have been the rewards: in recent years, alongside all of this lawlessness, Washington has recognized Jerusalem as Israel’s capital and then moved its embassy there. It also brokered the so-called Abraham accords, which ushered in lucrative normalization agreements between Israel and the United Arab Emirates, Bahrain, Sudan and Morocco.
[...] Where were Palestinian rights and aspirations in all these deals? Absolutely nowhere. Because the other thing that had shifted during these years of impunity was any pretext that Israel intended to return to the negotiating table. The clear goal was crushing the Palestinian movement for self-determination through force, alongside physical and political isolation and fragmentation.
(Middle East Eye) War on Gaza: Internal anger with Biden and Congress reaches boiling point
But anger and dissent aren't limited to the progressive camp. Middle East Eye spoke to congressional staffers from several offices across both chambers, as well as several staffers working in the Biden administration who say that frustration towards Biden and Congress has reached a boiling point.
"The level of anger at Joe Biden is now comparable to the level of anger at Donald Trump," one progressive Capitol Hill staffer told Middle East Eye on the night the US conducted the first strikes on Yemen.
"The idea that he would do that and then ask us to vote for him is ludicrous," the staffer said. "I don't know what planet they are operating on, but this is not how you win in November.”
[...] Since 7 October, one White House staff member told Middle East Eye that she has had a letter of resignation typed up and ready to send. Each day, she takes a look at it, wondering whether it will be the day she decides to leave.
"The only reason a lot of us had for staying is, if we're not here, who will be at least advocating. I think that's what's held a few of us back, but that one specific cause is slowly - it's fading away. There's not much else left," the staffer told MEE.
"There's nothing really tying us to want to stay here and also make us feel even more complicit."
The staffer's experience and feelings resemble many others across the administration who decided to join the Biden administration to work on a number of domestic policy issues such as education or the environment. But now, each day the war continues, they see working there as risking complicity in Biden's fervent support for the war, even as Israel has been brought to The Hague to defend itself against accusations of genocide.
"Staffers feel demoralised, and they feel disconnected, kind of appalled and very uncomfortable working for this president," another White House staffer said.
"It's very difficult to continue to work here.”
[...] The morale of staff in the White House is so low that the chief of staff planned a party in the hopes of cheering up the employees, according to a report from Axios.
😌
Economist: Israel has yet to destroy even half of Gaza’s tunnels
But senior officers admit they will not be able to destroy the entirety of Gaza’s tunnel network. The time Israel has for large-scale operations in Gaza city is running out. International pressure to scale down the war, particularly from America, is forcing Israel to begin withdrawing troops. So is the need to allow hundreds of thousands of reservists, who have been in uniform for over three months, to return to civilian life. Israel faces growing calls to allow more than 1m Palestinians displaced from northern Gaza to start returning there. That is not possible while the idf is still blowing up tunnels.
Meanwhile, another IDF division is fighting in and around Khan Younis, the second-largest city in the Gaza Strip, where Israeli intelligence believes the leader of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, is holed up along with more than 100 Israeli hostages. The campaign in Khan Younis began on December 1st and has yet to deliver any tangible results. “The problem is that they are trying to achieve three different objectives,” says one veteran commander. “To destroy Hamas’s Khan Younis brigade; to eliminate Sinwar; and to rescue the hostages. Each of these missions requires a different tactical approach, but they’re trying to do all three at once.”
(The Nation) Israel Is Not Promising to “Scale Back” Its War - As the US secretary of state shuttles to stop the war from expanding, the Israeli defense minister vows “months” more war on Gaza and suggests taking the fight to Iran.
Yanyway: Ex-Shin Bet head says Israel should negotiate with jailed intifada leader - Israel will not have security until Palestinians have their own state, Ami Ayalon says in Guardian interview -
He came out earlier on Haaretz (about a week ago) with a similar position.
(The Hill) Sanders says Gaza ‘is worse than’ what happened in Dresden during WWII
Ken Klippenstein: Biden Secretly Giving Targeting Support to Israel Amid Genocide Case -
Why do we have to rely on FOIA to piece together our government's foreign policy??
--
The Biden administration is quietly providing intelligence to Israel for targeting purposes, deploying U.S. Air Force “intelligence engagement officers on the ground,” according to a deployment order obtained under the Freedom of Information Act and published at The Intercept.
Officially, the Biden administration has only admitted to providing intelligence to Israel for hostage rescue operations, which are obviously less controversial politically than offensive targeting. The revelation comes at a time when the International Court of Justice is opening extraordinary hearings on a genocide case against Israel brought by the country of South Africa.
The deployment order, dated November 21, 2023, was issued by Pentagon’s air component command for the Middle East, Air Forces Central (for Central Command). The document provides deployment instructions to airmen sent to the country, including “airmen assigned as the Intelligence Engagement Officer (IEO)” — personnel who specialize in sharing sensitive intelligence with partner militaries.
That we’re forced to rely on random FOIA documents to piece together the truth of our country’s foreign policy — including such basic facts as where U.S. servicemembers are being sent — is a stain on the Biden administration, whose policies regarding Israel have been shrouded in secrecy. And while transparency is certainly never the national security state’s forte, its secrecy on the subject of Israeli is just off the spectrum.
Australia: (SMH) ABC federal politics reporter resigns over Gaza coverage
(Juan Cole) In Blow to Democracy, British Parliament Votes to Outlaw University and Council Boycotts of Israel amid Gaza Genocide
posted by cendawanita at 11:35 PM on January 14 [12 favorites]
A mid-read, a long-read, and some tiny links
(Time; Bruno Maçães) Gaza and the End of Western Fantasy
No one could accuse the U.S. of double standards. What it is vulnerable to is the accusation that it no longer has any standards at all.
But standards have their uses and not only for the sentimental. They give form to world politics and drive other states to follow rules decided and enforced by a higher power. With the right level of hypocrisy, they allow you to subject others to your rules while remaining somewhat above them. The challenge is to explain why the U.S. would be so willing to renounce the advantages of hypocrisy and its role as rule-maker. In the way it has addressed the political and humanitarian crisis in the Middle East, we see what it would mean for the existing world order to unravel, as American power gives up on the mission of every hegemon: to shape world politics according to its own plan and, as always happens, its own standards.
The reason for America’s capitulation is that rules are always a hindrance to free action. Even for those in charge of creating and enforcing them, or especially for them, since ordering the world is hard work and gets in the way of enjoying it. No great power has ever been founded on the subjectivity of desire or impulse, but those temptations are just as present in the life of nations as in the life of individuals.
[Bruno Maçães was Portugal's Secretary of State for European Affairs and is currently a consultant at Flint Global. He is the author of The Dawn of Eurasia and, most recently, Geopolitics for the End Time]
(n+1; Jake Romm, Dylan Saba) Acts Harmful to the Enemy - Within the paradigm of international humanitarian law, waging a revolutionary war will always be illegal
---
Under international humanitarian law (IHL), it is illegal to intentionally target medical facilities. But as supporters of Israel’s assault have been quick to point out, if those facilities are used by combatants in the commission of “acts harmful to the enemy,” they lose their protected status. Of course, the principles of proportionality and noncombatant immunity still apply regardless of whether the building itself is protected, but that single turn of phrase—acts harmful to the enemy—was enough to obscure the souls trapped within. And in material terms, it carried the day: the IDF deemed the Palestinian presence in the hospital a harmful act—as they had for the Palestinian presence throughout northern Gaza.
The soldiers didn’t find any hostages inside the compound. Instead there were thousands of civilians sheltering at Al-Shifa: patients, medical staff, and others seeking refuge and trying to wait out the siege as their meager supplies dwindled to nothing. Earlier that week, fuel that had been powering generators had run out completely, killing five patients, including one premature baby. And in the weeks before the raid, many Palestinians had died at the hospital from the full variety of this war’s lethal horrors: airstrikes, bullets, infection, deprivation of medicine, pain. In the hospital’s courtyard, the soldiers found a mass grave. By at least one account, they exhumed the grave and took away more than a hundred corpses, only to return them days later via the Red Cross in fresh, blue body bags to be buried in a newly dug trench. Were they searching for evidence of Al-Qassam fighters among the dead?
In the hours after the raid, the IDF’s public relations team set out to justify the operation, releasing a video walkthrough of the facility purporting to show evidence of its military function: a “terrorist grab bag,” some small arms, a couple of uniforms, a box of dates, and so on. The video was widely mocked, and media outlets that had uncritically repeated US and Israeli talking points about the hospital days earlier began to cast some doubt on the military’s claims. By that point, though, the raid was completed and the evacuation was underway. Israel held firm control over the hospital, which was now fully out of commission. And in any case, there were other hospitals—and schools, and refugee camps—to target in the north of the Strip. Only a few days later, the IDF abandoned the site entirely, making sure to destroy generators and medical equipment on their way out.
Israel’s critics loudly decried the Al-Shifa raid as a war crime. The accusation joined a litany of others launched at the state as journalists, scholars, politicians, and activists—on the ground and abroad—invoked the law of war as an attempt to constrain the devastation in Gaza. But by any metric, these attempts have failed. International humanitarian law has not prevented the carpet bombing of residential neighborhoods, the use of white phosphorus, the death of more children than it is sensible to describe, and the endless trauma, which will last generations. There are no standing adjudicative bodies with both the authority and the power to regulate state action, and even if there were, it is not clear what IHL could offer in the case of Palestine. IHL was crafted by state powers to regulate wars between them; it is, in many respects, fundamentally antagonistic to a stateless national movement fighting for liberation.
[...] Walzer’s theory [of Just War], and the law of war it supports, is most suited to war between hypothetical states. Our world, however, is composed of actual states in geopolitical relation to one another—and to subnational and extranational political formations. Broadly, these form a world-system that has the United States at its core. This has granted the United States a unique ability to extol the virtues of a “rules-based international order” while simultaneously exempting itself from the various obligations that comprise such an order: the US refuses to sign onto the major human-rights treaties, launches wars of aggression without permission from the Security Council, and tortures prisoners of war.
As the major geopolitical ally and regional proxy force of the US, Israel has benefited tremendously from the broad umbrella of US exemptionalism. Like its benefactor, Israel has also refused to ratify the Rome Convention of the International Criminal Court, routinely engages in torture and arbitrary detention, and violates the sovereignty of neighboring countries at will. But whereas the US, as the self-appointed enforcer of the global order, must at least pay lip service to institutions it claims to lead, Israel, as a bit player (albeit an important one) is under no such obligation. Instead, Israel routinely castigates and denigrates the entire patchwork of international bodies—from the United Nations and the ICC to the global network of NGOs that have, for better or worse, sprung up around them. In so doing, Israel is not just seeking to exempt itself from these institutions’ oversight. Nor is it merely challenging these institutions’ legitimacy. Rather, it is challenging the very idea of international oversight and comity altogether. When its supposed enemies in the UN correctly accuse Israel of committing war crimes or the crime of apartheid, Israel sees only games of realpolitik. To condemn Israel on the terrain of international law is to wage a battle that has already been lost. At once Israel retorts: we follow the law, and also there is no such thing.
[...] The contrast between Israel’s antagonism to the institutions, treaties, and juridical bodies that make up the international legal order and its stated commitment to international law has produced bizarre discursive loops for a US political elite scrambling to justify the current war effort. Proposals to condition aid to Israel on its actual adherence to international law—or even just to enforce the Leahy Law against Israel, which prohibits the Department of Defense from allocating funding to any state credibly found in gross violation of human rights—are considered political nonstarters. In fact, the US does not track which weapons go to which military units in Israel—the only country in the world with such an exception—making effective enforcement of the Leahy Law functionally impossible, even in theory. On top of these special dispensations, the Biden Administration has sought to make it easier, both legally and politically, to arm Israel: it has hidden its ledger of arms transfers from public view and moved to lift all restrictions on Israeli access to US regional weapons stockpiles.
The Palestinian national movement is likewise exempted from the framework of international law, not by recusal but by exclusion. Decades of Israeli state policy has had as its principal objective the prevention of a sovereign Palestinian state and Palestinian entrance into the community of nations. With the help of the United States, Israel has largely succeeded—Palestine is not a member state of the United Nations and does not have standing to petition many international bodies. Where the state is recognized, Palestinian national formations are marginalized: the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court Karim Khan recently referred to Hamas as a “terror organization” in a formal communique.
But “terror organization” is an empty signifier—it tells us nothing about the designated group, but quite a bit about the speaker. It tells us, for instance, that the speaker is mired in a framework that separates distinction and proportionality to such a degree that the former becomes folded into the latter. It tells us that the speaker views state action as presumptively legitimate and action by the oppressed as presumptively illegitimate.
[...] Within the paradigm of IHL, waging a revolutionary war will always be illegal. It is, by its very nature, an offensive action against an existing political order with the aim of overthrowing that order. It will not be conceived as self-defense, because it breaks with an intolerable and naturalized status quo—which is precisely what the right of self-defense is here invoked to defend.
[...] The question of how to justly wage revolutionary violence touches on several lacunae in the Marxist tradition—ethics as such and military strategy are undertheorized on the left—and the two formulations we have on hand, namely “by any means necessary” and “according to the law of war,” are unsatisfying: the former because it sidesteps ethics, and the latter because it sidesteps the question of national liberation. If we are to move beyond merely understanding why political violence occurs toward the construction of a just world as a positive, post-imperial project, we will ultimately need to seize international law, or an aspirational version of it, for our own ends.
This requires reckoning with the inadequacy of the legal form, not just as a weak deterrent, but as a framework for liberation. “Only because there is no escape from hell,” Walzer writes, “have we labored to create a world of rules within it.” The presumption of symmetry in IHL means that the hell presupposed here is a cyclical event between sovereigns and not an enduring structure imposed on the oppressed. Any effort to abolish this structure, not in the utopian sense imagined by Walzer—a war to end all wars—but merely an escape from hell as a structure—in a word, decolonization—will necessarily stand outside the boundaries of the law entirely.
Those who refuse to face this directly remain discursively trapped in a double bind: Palestinians, so long as they engage in lawful but futile resistance, or better yet, appeal directly to noblesse oblige, are perpetual victims worthy of sympathy and support. But as soon as they transgress, they transform into barbarians, motivated only by bloodlust and incapable of rational political action. It is this whiplash that has carved divides in left-liberal spaces of the Palestine solidarity movement. Oppressed Palestinians, for their part, have no legal infrastructure within which to adjudicate their claims, and are thus at the mercy of the legitimating power of the colonizer’s courts. In order to take seriously the contention that the colonized must author their own liberation, we must admit that neither the terrain nor terms of struggle will be legal.
None of this is to suggest that the law cannot be useful, or that we should abandon legal discourse entirely. Like the Palestinians trapped in Gaza and those under occupation in the West Bank, the Palestinian diaspora and the solidarity movement are constrained to the political tools available to us. That the US and Israeli governments pay lip service to international legal obligations presents discrete opportunities to make demands on those terms. Petitioning international institutions is another available avenue of political pressure, as is pursuing individual arrest warrants in foreign countries under the theory of universal jurisdiction. But these arguments and claims should be put to specific ends in specific fora. In other words, the law must be placed in service of the cause of liberation, and not the inverse.
Not every action taken under the banner of a just cause is necessarily just—nor does every act of revolutionary violence advance the cause of liberation. Making those political assessments and moral judgments requires disaggregating the actions of the various actors, both militant and vigilante, and situating them in their proper context. The discourse of international law—which on the one hand legitimates the horrors of conventional warfare, and on the other criminalizes revolutionary violence—makes a sober evaluation of these questions incredibly difficult. Unlearning its dogma will be an essential task of just worldmaking in the denouement and afterlife of the US empire.
Until the law can prove itself operative, it is incumbent upon those seeking Palestinian freedom to cut through the pablum and the false invocations, and to rescue from its discourse only what is useful. “The question of legality or illegality reduces itself,” Georg Lukács writes, “to a mere question of tactics.” Or, as legal scholar Robert Knox prescribes, “What must be pursued is a ‘principled opportunism,’ where—in order to undercut the individualizing, legitimating perspective of law—international law is consciously used as a mere tool, to be discarded when not useful.” Because until Palestine is free—indeed, until the world is free from the international order that produces so many Palestines across the globe—the discourse of the law will function best as a salve to soothe the sharpest pains of the oppressed at the cost of muting their loudest protestations. Liberation will require something more.
(The Intercept) 77 Groups Worldwide Back Genocide Lawsuit Against Biden in U.S. Court
In late December, 77 groups — representing tens of thousands of lawyers, civil society leaders, and activists from six continents — filed an amicus briefOpens in a new tab in a lawsuit that Palestinian human rights organizations, residents of Gaza, and U.S. citizens with family members impacted by Israel’s ongoing assault brought against the Biden administration.
In the amicus brief, which is an avenue for groups not directly involved in a lawsuit to give the court information to consider in its ruling, the organizations argue that the plaintiffs establish that a genocide, or serious risk of genocide, of Palestinians in Gaza is occurring. They also argue that the U.S. is violating its duties under international law to prevent and not be complicit in genocide, and that those U.S. failures contribute to the erosion of “long and widely-held norms of international law,” including the Genocide Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights, both established in 1948 in the wake of World War II.
The lawsuit is headed for a hearing in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California later this month.
(Guardian) Ilhan Omar leads 384 worldwide leaders in call for Gaza ceasefire
Signatories of joint letter by US representative demanding end to war include politicians from Austria to Turkey
The American signatories are the representatives Omar, Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, André Carson, Greg Casar, Jesús García, Hank Johnson, Summer Lee, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ayanna Pressley, Nydia Velázquez and Bonnie Watson Coleman.
Omar, the first woman of color to represent Minnesota, and one of the first two Muslim-American women elected to Congress, said: “We can hold two things in our heads at once: that the attacks by Hamas on October 7 were a war crime, and that Israel has responded by committing crimes against humanity – crimes that the United States, and much of the West continue to let happen, despite our professed support for international law.
“I am proud to lead this international effort to demand an end to this violence, to demand a release of the hostages who have now suffered for 133 days, and to condemn all violations of international law in this conflict.”
The list also includes politicians from Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Britain, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Mexico, the Netherlands, Norway, Peru, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and Turkey.
Among the British contingent are Jeremy Corbyn, a former leader of the Labour party, John McDonnell, a former shadow chancellor of the exchequer, and Shami Chakrabarti, a member of the House of Lords and former director of Liberty, a civil rights organisation.
(Guardian) Finnish and Icelandic artists call for Israel to be banned from Eurovision - More than 1,400 Finland-based artists sign petition for Israel to be excluded from contest over alleged war crimes in Gaza
Compilation websites:
October 7 Factcheck
Crimes by Israel
posted by cendawanita at 11:45 PM on January 14 [15 favorites]
(Time; Bruno Maçães) Gaza and the End of Western Fantasy
No one could accuse the U.S. of double standards. What it is vulnerable to is the accusation that it no longer has any standards at all.
But standards have their uses and not only for the sentimental. They give form to world politics and drive other states to follow rules decided and enforced by a higher power. With the right level of hypocrisy, they allow you to subject others to your rules while remaining somewhat above them. The challenge is to explain why the U.S. would be so willing to renounce the advantages of hypocrisy and its role as rule-maker. In the way it has addressed the political and humanitarian crisis in the Middle East, we see what it would mean for the existing world order to unravel, as American power gives up on the mission of every hegemon: to shape world politics according to its own plan and, as always happens, its own standards.
The reason for America’s capitulation is that rules are always a hindrance to free action. Even for those in charge of creating and enforcing them, or especially for them, since ordering the world is hard work and gets in the way of enjoying it. No great power has ever been founded on the subjectivity of desire or impulse, but those temptations are just as present in the life of nations as in the life of individuals.
[Bruno Maçães was Portugal's Secretary of State for European Affairs and is currently a consultant at Flint Global. He is the author of The Dawn of Eurasia and, most recently, Geopolitics for the End Time]
(n+1; Jake Romm, Dylan Saba) Acts Harmful to the Enemy - Within the paradigm of international humanitarian law, waging a revolutionary war will always be illegal
---
Under international humanitarian law (IHL), it is illegal to intentionally target medical facilities. But as supporters of Israel’s assault have been quick to point out, if those facilities are used by combatants in the commission of “acts harmful to the enemy,” they lose their protected status. Of course, the principles of proportionality and noncombatant immunity still apply regardless of whether the building itself is protected, but that single turn of phrase—acts harmful to the enemy—was enough to obscure the souls trapped within. And in material terms, it carried the day: the IDF deemed the Palestinian presence in the hospital a harmful act—as they had for the Palestinian presence throughout northern Gaza.
The soldiers didn’t find any hostages inside the compound. Instead there were thousands of civilians sheltering at Al-Shifa: patients, medical staff, and others seeking refuge and trying to wait out the siege as their meager supplies dwindled to nothing. Earlier that week, fuel that had been powering generators had run out completely, killing five patients, including one premature baby. And in the weeks before the raid, many Palestinians had died at the hospital from the full variety of this war’s lethal horrors: airstrikes, bullets, infection, deprivation of medicine, pain. In the hospital’s courtyard, the soldiers found a mass grave. By at least one account, they exhumed the grave and took away more than a hundred corpses, only to return them days later via the Red Cross in fresh, blue body bags to be buried in a newly dug trench. Were they searching for evidence of Al-Qassam fighters among the dead?
In the hours after the raid, the IDF’s public relations team set out to justify the operation, releasing a video walkthrough of the facility purporting to show evidence of its military function: a “terrorist grab bag,” some small arms, a couple of uniforms, a box of dates, and so on. The video was widely mocked, and media outlets that had uncritically repeated US and Israeli talking points about the hospital days earlier began to cast some doubt on the military’s claims. By that point, though, the raid was completed and the evacuation was underway. Israel held firm control over the hospital, which was now fully out of commission. And in any case, there were other hospitals—and schools, and refugee camps—to target in the north of the Strip. Only a few days later, the IDF abandoned the site entirely, making sure to destroy generators and medical equipment on their way out.
Israel’s critics loudly decried the Al-Shifa raid as a war crime. The accusation joined a litany of others launched at the state as journalists, scholars, politicians, and activists—on the ground and abroad—invoked the law of war as an attempt to constrain the devastation in Gaza. But by any metric, these attempts have failed. International humanitarian law has not prevented the carpet bombing of residential neighborhoods, the use of white phosphorus, the death of more children than it is sensible to describe, and the endless trauma, which will last generations. There are no standing adjudicative bodies with both the authority and the power to regulate state action, and even if there were, it is not clear what IHL could offer in the case of Palestine. IHL was crafted by state powers to regulate wars between them; it is, in many respects, fundamentally antagonistic to a stateless national movement fighting for liberation.
[...] Walzer’s theory [of Just War], and the law of war it supports, is most suited to war between hypothetical states. Our world, however, is composed of actual states in geopolitical relation to one another—and to subnational and extranational political formations. Broadly, these form a world-system that has the United States at its core. This has granted the United States a unique ability to extol the virtues of a “rules-based international order” while simultaneously exempting itself from the various obligations that comprise such an order: the US refuses to sign onto the major human-rights treaties, launches wars of aggression without permission from the Security Council, and tortures prisoners of war.
As the major geopolitical ally and regional proxy force of the US, Israel has benefited tremendously from the broad umbrella of US exemptionalism. Like its benefactor, Israel has also refused to ratify the Rome Convention of the International Criminal Court, routinely engages in torture and arbitrary detention, and violates the sovereignty of neighboring countries at will. But whereas the US, as the self-appointed enforcer of the global order, must at least pay lip service to institutions it claims to lead, Israel, as a bit player (albeit an important one) is under no such obligation. Instead, Israel routinely castigates and denigrates the entire patchwork of international bodies—from the United Nations and the ICC to the global network of NGOs that have, for better or worse, sprung up around them. In so doing, Israel is not just seeking to exempt itself from these institutions’ oversight. Nor is it merely challenging these institutions’ legitimacy. Rather, it is challenging the very idea of international oversight and comity altogether. When its supposed enemies in the UN correctly accuse Israel of committing war crimes or the crime of apartheid, Israel sees only games of realpolitik. To condemn Israel on the terrain of international law is to wage a battle that has already been lost. At once Israel retorts: we follow the law, and also there is no such thing.
[...] The contrast between Israel’s antagonism to the institutions, treaties, and juridical bodies that make up the international legal order and its stated commitment to international law has produced bizarre discursive loops for a US political elite scrambling to justify the current war effort. Proposals to condition aid to Israel on its actual adherence to international law—or even just to enforce the Leahy Law against Israel, which prohibits the Department of Defense from allocating funding to any state credibly found in gross violation of human rights—are considered political nonstarters. In fact, the US does not track which weapons go to which military units in Israel—the only country in the world with such an exception—making effective enforcement of the Leahy Law functionally impossible, even in theory. On top of these special dispensations, the Biden Administration has sought to make it easier, both legally and politically, to arm Israel: it has hidden its ledger of arms transfers from public view and moved to lift all restrictions on Israeli access to US regional weapons stockpiles.
The Palestinian national movement is likewise exempted from the framework of international law, not by recusal but by exclusion. Decades of Israeli state policy has had as its principal objective the prevention of a sovereign Palestinian state and Palestinian entrance into the community of nations. With the help of the United States, Israel has largely succeeded—Palestine is not a member state of the United Nations and does not have standing to petition many international bodies. Where the state is recognized, Palestinian national formations are marginalized: the chief prosecutor of the International Criminal Court Karim Khan recently referred to Hamas as a “terror organization” in a formal communique.
But “terror organization” is an empty signifier—it tells us nothing about the designated group, but quite a bit about the speaker. It tells us, for instance, that the speaker is mired in a framework that separates distinction and proportionality to such a degree that the former becomes folded into the latter. It tells us that the speaker views state action as presumptively legitimate and action by the oppressed as presumptively illegitimate.
[...] Within the paradigm of IHL, waging a revolutionary war will always be illegal. It is, by its very nature, an offensive action against an existing political order with the aim of overthrowing that order. It will not be conceived as self-defense, because it breaks with an intolerable and naturalized status quo—which is precisely what the right of self-defense is here invoked to defend.
[...] The question of how to justly wage revolutionary violence touches on several lacunae in the Marxist tradition—ethics as such and military strategy are undertheorized on the left—and the two formulations we have on hand, namely “by any means necessary” and “according to the law of war,” are unsatisfying: the former because it sidesteps ethics, and the latter because it sidesteps the question of national liberation. If we are to move beyond merely understanding why political violence occurs toward the construction of a just world as a positive, post-imperial project, we will ultimately need to seize international law, or an aspirational version of it, for our own ends.
This requires reckoning with the inadequacy of the legal form, not just as a weak deterrent, but as a framework for liberation. “Only because there is no escape from hell,” Walzer writes, “have we labored to create a world of rules within it.” The presumption of symmetry in IHL means that the hell presupposed here is a cyclical event between sovereigns and not an enduring structure imposed on the oppressed. Any effort to abolish this structure, not in the utopian sense imagined by Walzer—a war to end all wars—but merely an escape from hell as a structure—in a word, decolonization—will necessarily stand outside the boundaries of the law entirely.
Those who refuse to face this directly remain discursively trapped in a double bind: Palestinians, so long as they engage in lawful but futile resistance, or better yet, appeal directly to noblesse oblige, are perpetual victims worthy of sympathy and support. But as soon as they transgress, they transform into barbarians, motivated only by bloodlust and incapable of rational political action. It is this whiplash that has carved divides in left-liberal spaces of the Palestine solidarity movement. Oppressed Palestinians, for their part, have no legal infrastructure within which to adjudicate their claims, and are thus at the mercy of the legitimating power of the colonizer’s courts. In order to take seriously the contention that the colonized must author their own liberation, we must admit that neither the terrain nor terms of struggle will be legal.
None of this is to suggest that the law cannot be useful, or that we should abandon legal discourse entirely. Like the Palestinians trapped in Gaza and those under occupation in the West Bank, the Palestinian diaspora and the solidarity movement are constrained to the political tools available to us. That the US and Israeli governments pay lip service to international legal obligations presents discrete opportunities to make demands on those terms. Petitioning international institutions is another available avenue of political pressure, as is pursuing individual arrest warrants in foreign countries under the theory of universal jurisdiction. But these arguments and claims should be put to specific ends in specific fora. In other words, the law must be placed in service of the cause of liberation, and not the inverse.
Not every action taken under the banner of a just cause is necessarily just—nor does every act of revolutionary violence advance the cause of liberation. Making those political assessments and moral judgments requires disaggregating the actions of the various actors, both militant and vigilante, and situating them in their proper context. The discourse of international law—which on the one hand legitimates the horrors of conventional warfare, and on the other criminalizes revolutionary violence—makes a sober evaluation of these questions incredibly difficult. Unlearning its dogma will be an essential task of just worldmaking in the denouement and afterlife of the US empire.
Until the law can prove itself operative, it is incumbent upon those seeking Palestinian freedom to cut through the pablum and the false invocations, and to rescue from its discourse only what is useful. “The question of legality or illegality reduces itself,” Georg Lukács writes, “to a mere question of tactics.” Or, as legal scholar Robert Knox prescribes, “What must be pursued is a ‘principled opportunism,’ where—in order to undercut the individualizing, legitimating perspective of law—international law is consciously used as a mere tool, to be discarded when not useful.” Because until Palestine is free—indeed, until the world is free from the international order that produces so many Palestines across the globe—the discourse of the law will function best as a salve to soothe the sharpest pains of the oppressed at the cost of muting their loudest protestations. Liberation will require something more.
(The Intercept) 77 Groups Worldwide Back Genocide Lawsuit Against Biden in U.S. Court
In late December, 77 groups — representing tens of thousands of lawyers, civil society leaders, and activists from six continents — filed an amicus briefOpens in a new tab in a lawsuit that Palestinian human rights organizations, residents of Gaza, and U.S. citizens with family members impacted by Israel’s ongoing assault brought against the Biden administration.
In the amicus brief, which is an avenue for groups not directly involved in a lawsuit to give the court information to consider in its ruling, the organizations argue that the plaintiffs establish that a genocide, or serious risk of genocide, of Palestinians in Gaza is occurring. They also argue that the U.S. is violating its duties under international law to prevent and not be complicit in genocide, and that those U.S. failures contribute to the erosion of “long and widely-held norms of international law,” including the Genocide Convention and Universal Declaration of Human Rights, both established in 1948 in the wake of World War II.
The lawsuit is headed for a hearing in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California later this month.
(Guardian) Ilhan Omar leads 384 worldwide leaders in call for Gaza ceasefire
Signatories of joint letter by US representative demanding end to war include politicians from Austria to Turkey
The American signatories are the representatives Omar, Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, André Carson, Greg Casar, Jesús García, Hank Johnson, Summer Lee, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ayanna Pressley, Nydia Velázquez and Bonnie Watson Coleman.
Omar, the first woman of color to represent Minnesota, and one of the first two Muslim-American women elected to Congress, said: “We can hold two things in our heads at once: that the attacks by Hamas on October 7 were a war crime, and that Israel has responded by committing crimes against humanity – crimes that the United States, and much of the West continue to let happen, despite our professed support for international law.
“I am proud to lead this international effort to demand an end to this violence, to demand a release of the hostages who have now suffered for 133 days, and to condemn all violations of international law in this conflict.”
The list also includes politicians from Austria, Belgium, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Britain, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Ghana, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Mexico, the Netherlands, Norway, Peru, Portugal, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and Turkey.
Among the British contingent are Jeremy Corbyn, a former leader of the Labour party, John McDonnell, a former shadow chancellor of the exchequer, and Shami Chakrabarti, a member of the House of Lords and former director of Liberty, a civil rights organisation.
(Guardian) Finnish and Icelandic artists call for Israel to be banned from Eurovision - More than 1,400 Finland-based artists sign petition for Israel to be excluded from contest over alleged war crimes in Gaza
Compilation websites:
October 7 Factcheck
Crimes by Israel
posted by cendawanita at 11:45 PM on January 14 [15 favorites]
cendawanita, you are a hero.
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:43 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:43 AM on January 15 [9 favorites]
Haaretz publishing multiple interviews on the starvation in Gaza: Half a Million Gazans Are Suffering From Acute Hunger. Let That Sink In (via archive.is). They interview "Col. A., a representative of COGAT, which is responsible for supervising the transfer of aid into Gaza.":
posted by kmt at 4:45 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
- Israel says that 70 tons of food have entered the Gaza Strip since the war began. Divide that by 90 days of fighting, and then among 2.3 million people, and you get less than 350 grams per day per person.Emphasis not in the original.
"Before the war, the Strip was bursting with food. The warehouses and the supermarkets were full. Both in the private sector, among the farmers, and in the UN's warehouses. The food industry worked vigorously – so that calculation is nonsense. There were stockpiles of food in Gaza. Don't forget that this is an Arab, Gazan population whose DNA is to hoard, certainly when it comes to food."
posted by kmt at 4:45 AM on January 15 [5 favorites]
On the topic of vile, racist speech: Zionist or Nazi? Who Said This?
posted by kmt at 5:01 AM on January 15 [6 favorites]
Disclaimer: this quiz is part of a research on perceptions of hate speech and is not meant to hurt anyone's sentiments. We do not seek to target any ethnicity or religion. Political ideologies however should be scrutinized and challenged. Zionism does not represent all Jews just like Nazism does not represent all Germans.14/20 - after you finish, you can check your answers - the form will show the source / attribution of every quote.
Following are a few statements. Some made by prominent Nazi Germans about Jews, others made by prominent Israeli and pro-Israeli Zionists about Palestinians. Can you guess which is which?
Since the quote in question could be about either Jews or Palestinians, the name of the group will be replaced with "[group]". There will be other similar context dependent replacements.
posted by kmt at 5:01 AM on January 15 [6 favorites]
11/20 for me. No better than chance, sadly.
posted by flabdablet at 5:12 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 5:12 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
15/20, but i'd have done a whole lot worse if i hadn't been consuming so much news -- i recognized a bunch of the Zionist statements from the last three months.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:58 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:58 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
12/20. Though I thought the test was balanced with 10 quotes from each group (it isn't, only 4 nazi answers) and started gaming the test by choosing Nazi when I had any doubt.
Which, depending on how this research will be used could be intentional to skew results for use in propaganda.
Or the quiz could be propaganda to show Nazi like Zionist statements.
Though I don't imagine many people who aren't aware of and acknowledge the parallels already would take the quiz.
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 AM on January 15
Which, depending on how this research will be used could be intentional to skew results for use in propaganda.
Or the quiz could be propaganda to show Nazi like Zionist statements.
Though I don't imagine many people who aren't aware of and acknowledge the parallels already would take the quiz.
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 AM on January 15
Mitheral: i saw the quiz creator's initial tweet, and i don't get the impression that there is any intent to use this as any kind of formal research instrument, nor any conscious desire to skew the results by not having the answers be 10 Nazis + 10 Zionists. I really think the guy was just horrified by the parallels he sees, and wanted a quick way to let people look through his eyes, as it were. (Pretty sure the only reason it's on Google Forms is because it's the thing people know how to use to create quick polls, not bc he plans to do anything with the data.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:38 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:38 AM on January 15 [1 favorite]
16/20 for me.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:23 AM on January 15
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:23 AM on January 15
Ok, let's cool it with the score-sharing. Or rather, let's just go right ahead and share which were the statements made by Israeli officials, and let them stand, for the record, on their own merits.
posted by cendawanita at 8:53 AM on January 15 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:53 AM on January 15 [8 favorites]
For folks who haven’t read the South Africa filing, some of those quotes (and more) appear starting on page 59 of the filing.
posted by R343L at 9:04 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
posted by R343L at 9:04 AM on January 15 [7 favorites]
Is there any idea of a time frame for when to expect a ruling from the ICJ? For some reason I'd gotten it into my head to expect a ruling this week on Tuesday, but also I have no idea where that notion came from.
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:02 PM on January 15
posted by DoctorFedora at 6:02 PM on January 15
Historically, 2-4 weeks seems the best guess.
posted by bcd at 6:03 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 6:03 PM on January 15 [1 favorite]
Is there any idea of a time frame for when to expect a ruling from the ICJ?
Al Jazeera - South Africa’s genocide case against Israel: How will the ICJ decide has a good rundown.
There's two parts: the full judgement could take years, while an interim measure could be ordered within weeks.
All based on recent history: when Russia invaded Ukraine, Kyiv filed a case and the ICJ took 3 weeks to issue the interim order in Mar 2022 that Russia immediately cease its military operation. That conflict is still escalating today with heavy fighting.
As for the full judgement - Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya is still in trial even though it was filed in 2019.
posted by xdvesper at 6:34 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
Al Jazeera - South Africa’s genocide case against Israel: How will the ICJ decide has a good rundown.
There's two parts: the full judgement could take years, while an interim measure could be ordered within weeks.
All based on recent history: when Russia invaded Ukraine, Kyiv filed a case and the ICJ took 3 weeks to issue the interim order in Mar 2022 that Russia immediately cease its military operation. That conflict is still escalating today with heavy fighting.
As for the full judgement - Myanmar's treatment of the Rohingya is still in trial even though it was filed in 2019.
posted by xdvesper at 6:34 PM on January 15 [5 favorites]
by the way, with the continued deterioration of media coverage, and tankies/assadists swarming in a "broken clock" situation + people's sympathies for the material they surface = messing up the messed-up algorithms, it's been even more of a challenge for me to parse through and review the stuff I've been collating. Stuff that eventually makes it into 'formal' reporting will continue as usual, but please note: CONTENT SHARE IS NOT SOURCE RECOMMENDATION. I'll continue including them if they serve useful compilation sources and (community-validated) translation/local knowledge, but please judge their analysis with care. Just noting as a flag for the rest of us too, it's tough out there - the 'establishment' information system is coopted and broken worse than usual, with the worse victim (for my purpose) is the contextualizing and sense-making function. E.g. all the Ansarallah discussion upthread. (my personal motto for the last three months is, no joke, "at no point do you have to hand it to Stalin")
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on January 15 [13 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on January 15 [13 favorites]
"Doctors in Gaza said that children, weakened by lack of food, had died from hypothermia and that several newborn babies with mothers who were undernourished had not survived for more than a few days."The Guardian
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:09 AM on January 16 [6 favorites]
I've basically killed my laptop several times this evening, but I still haven't cleared my tabs to share, and it's still a working week, so I think I have to move these up because of the newsyness:
On security/meeting military objectives
29 Dec (First Post) Israeli soldiers killed 3 hostages as they thought cries for help in Hebrew were Hamas subterfuge
This episode did get coverage, even here.
This one less so: 9 Dec (New Arab) Israeli captive held by Hamas 'killed in failed army rescue operation'
The hostage, who Hamas says was a soldier, was allegedly killed during the Israeli assault. while two members of the Israeli special forces team were severely injured.
A video released on social media by the Qassam Brigades purportedly shows the aftermath of the failed Israeli operation. The video begins with previously recorded footage of the hostage, who identifies himself in the clip as 24-year-old Israeli soldier Sahar Baruch from Kibbutz Be’eri.
Text in the video then claims that Israel used an ambulance to penetrate the Palestinian group’s defences - something which they say defies international law. The Qassam Brigades said they ambushed the Israeli special forces and “dealt with them with gunfire”.
The graphic video then shows clips of a blood-spattered room and the body of the deceased hostage, with what appears to be at least one bullet hole in his chest. The Qassam Brigades claim he was killed in the crossfire.
The video also shows an Israeli rifle and radio equipment taken by the Palestinian group during the failed operation.
Israeli forces launched aerial assaults to cover the retreat of the special forces, the Qassam Brigades said.
The failed rescue operation was later confirmed by the Israeli army, however the military blamed Hamas for Baruch's death.
Bringing this up (and apologies, I’m also just adding on to Israeli conversation that I have been too overwhelmed to share here, about the following points I keep hearing - the govt has come to a near-standstill in serving their citizens; many are still displaced and seeking compensation; no one is really interested to bring back the hostages; the govt has been responsible for more civilian deaths than admitted) because yesterday, as per Reuters liveblog
DOHA/GAZA/JERUSALEM, Jan 15 (Reuters) - Hamas appeared to show the dead bodies of two Israeli hostages on Monday after warning Israel they might be killed if it did not stop its bombardment of Gaza.
A new video released by the Palestinian militant group purportedly showed the bodies of Yossi Sharabi, 53, and Itai Svirsky, 38, who had appeared in an initial video on Sunday.
It also showed a third Israeli hostage, university student Noa Argamani, 26, seemingly reading a script in front of a blank white wall, saying the two were killed by Israeli strikes.
Israel's military spokesperson said there was serious concern regarding the fate of the hostages purported to be dead in the video, while specifying that one of them, whom he identified as Svirsky, was not killed by Israeli fire.
"Itai was not shot by our forces. That is a Hamas lie. The building in which they were held was not a target and it was not attacked by our forces," said military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, who did not give the name or any details about the second person as per the family's request.
"We don't attack a place if we know there may be hostages inside," he said, adding that areas nearby had been targeted.
Reuters was unable to verify what had happened to the three, who were among some 240 people taken hostage by Islamist Hamas militants during a surprise cross-border rampage into southern Israel on Oct. 7
I have seen cites/claims that Argamani is the hostage that was claimed in Israeli press (and
subsequently elsewhere) that was killed and body mutilated (specifically, she was the one whose breasts were cut and played with)
//Longreads on sexual violence coverage in this round of violence -- next comment//
back to achieving military objectives
(AA - Turkish) 3 Jan: Is Israel losing the war against Hamas?
‘The official narrative has been that Hamas is weakened, but in reality, the Israeli army’s doctrine of massive force is falling,’ says Paul Rogers, UK’s leading global security expert
In a complete departure from the Israeli narrative, Dan Halutz, a former Israeli military chief, has suggested that Israel has lost the war against the Palestinian resistance group Hamas in the besieged Gaza Strip.
He criticized the current Israeli military and political strategy, expressing concerns over the future of Israel in an interview aired on local broadcaster Channel 7.
Israel can only win this war if it succeeds in destroying Hamas. However so far, it is proving very “difficult” to even dislodge it.
Hamas is much more than a movement; it is an idea, and the fundamental problem is that one cannot destroy an idea, according to Paul Rogers, an emeritus professor of peace studies at the University of Bradford.
Destroying Hamas would not solve the problem for Israel, as even if they appear to destroy it, then “it will just rise in a different form in maybe two or three years’ time, maybe a little bit more. But it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the position of the Palestinians. And they are not going to go away,” Rogers told Anadolu.
The professor argued that the war between the Israeli military and Hamas is a battle of time, as the Israelis only have a certain amount of time in which they can defeat Hamas.
Because otherwise, the pressure from the international community, and particularly from the United States, will force Israel to bring the war to an end, he said.
[...] Yitzhak Brick, a major general (reserve) in the Israeli army and former ombudsman for the occupation forces, raised an alarm months ago that Hamas could launch an attack on Israel and that the country must prepare for a multi-front war, given the situation on the Lebanese border, but his claims were dismissed by the defense establishment and the political leadership.
He referred to Hamas as equipped, trained fighters who will cross the border on foot and attack with an aim to take back Palestinian land and conquer settlements.
Brick warned that the Israeli army has turned into a primarily air-based military, unable to win a war and fight effectively on the ground.
He accused the leadership of completely trying to avoid losing on the battlefield, suggesting that this “completely loses the deterrence of the army and the ability to win the war.”
“We have lost the ability to field an effective army and have become a one-dimensional aerial power that cannot win a war on its own.”
The current situation of the land forces “is tragic; they are not ready for war,” he told local broadcaster Channel 12 last May.
(Guardian) 10 Jan: West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body (with cctv screen captures)
(MEE) 10 Jan: Exclusive: Gaza grandmother gunned down by Israeli sniper as child waved white flag (with video; treat with caution)
(AP) 10 Jan: Video appears to show the Israeli army shot 3 Palestinians, killing 1, without provocation
And yet, for all that:
(today; I mean yesterday) Israel car-ramming & stabbing attack: One elderly woman killed, 17 others injured in Raanana (AJ)
The video is actually a two-parter - the second half is the ongoing military and settler violence on Palestinians that has been continuing since before this stabbing attack. Note they're claiming the attackers had no legitimate work passes. Palestinians are either ghosts, or Israel cannot make the wall work. This isn't World War Z.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on January 16 [7 favorites]
On security/meeting military objectives
29 Dec (First Post) Israeli soldiers killed 3 hostages as they thought cries for help in Hebrew were Hamas subterfuge
This episode did get coverage, even here.
This one less so: 9 Dec (New Arab) Israeli captive held by Hamas 'killed in failed army rescue operation'
The hostage, who Hamas says was a soldier, was allegedly killed during the Israeli assault. while two members of the Israeli special forces team were severely injured.
A video released on social media by the Qassam Brigades purportedly shows the aftermath of the failed Israeli operation. The video begins with previously recorded footage of the hostage, who identifies himself in the clip as 24-year-old Israeli soldier Sahar Baruch from Kibbutz Be’eri.
Text in the video then claims that Israel used an ambulance to penetrate the Palestinian group’s defences - something which they say defies international law. The Qassam Brigades said they ambushed the Israeli special forces and “dealt with them with gunfire”.
The graphic video then shows clips of a blood-spattered room and the body of the deceased hostage, with what appears to be at least one bullet hole in his chest. The Qassam Brigades claim he was killed in the crossfire.
The video also shows an Israeli rifle and radio equipment taken by the Palestinian group during the failed operation.
Israeli forces launched aerial assaults to cover the retreat of the special forces, the Qassam Brigades said.
The failed rescue operation was later confirmed by the Israeli army, however the military blamed Hamas for Baruch's death.
Bringing this up (and apologies, I’m also just adding on to Israeli conversation that I have been too overwhelmed to share here, about the following points I keep hearing - the govt has come to a near-standstill in serving their citizens; many are still displaced and seeking compensation; no one is really interested to bring back the hostages; the govt has been responsible for more civilian deaths than admitted) because yesterday, as per Reuters liveblog
DOHA/GAZA/JERUSALEM, Jan 15 (Reuters) - Hamas appeared to show the dead bodies of two Israeli hostages on Monday after warning Israel they might be killed if it did not stop its bombardment of Gaza.
A new video released by the Palestinian militant group purportedly showed the bodies of Yossi Sharabi, 53, and Itai Svirsky, 38, who had appeared in an initial video on Sunday.
It also showed a third Israeli hostage, university student Noa Argamani, 26, seemingly reading a script in front of a blank white wall, saying the two were killed by Israeli strikes.
Israel's military spokesperson said there was serious concern regarding the fate of the hostages purported to be dead in the video, while specifying that one of them, whom he identified as Svirsky, was not killed by Israeli fire.
"Itai was not shot by our forces. That is a Hamas lie. The building in which they were held was not a target and it was not attacked by our forces," said military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, who did not give the name or any details about the second person as per the family's request.
"We don't attack a place if we know there may be hostages inside," he said, adding that areas nearby had been targeted.
Reuters was unable to verify what had happened to the three, who were among some 240 people taken hostage by Islamist Hamas militants during a surprise cross-border rampage into southern Israel on Oct. 7
I have seen cites/claims that Argamani is the hostage that was claimed in Israeli press (and
subsequently elsewhere) that was killed and body mutilated (specifically, she was the one whose breasts were cut and played with)
//Longreads on sexual violence coverage in this round of violence -- next comment//
back to achieving military objectives
(AA - Turkish) 3 Jan: Is Israel losing the war against Hamas?
‘The official narrative has been that Hamas is weakened, but in reality, the Israeli army’s doctrine of massive force is falling,’ says Paul Rogers, UK’s leading global security expert
In a complete departure from the Israeli narrative, Dan Halutz, a former Israeli military chief, has suggested that Israel has lost the war against the Palestinian resistance group Hamas in the besieged Gaza Strip.
He criticized the current Israeli military and political strategy, expressing concerns over the future of Israel in an interview aired on local broadcaster Channel 7.
Israel can only win this war if it succeeds in destroying Hamas. However so far, it is proving very “difficult” to even dislodge it.
Hamas is much more than a movement; it is an idea, and the fundamental problem is that one cannot destroy an idea, according to Paul Rogers, an emeritus professor of peace studies at the University of Bradford.
Destroying Hamas would not solve the problem for Israel, as even if they appear to destroy it, then “it will just rise in a different form in maybe two or three years’ time, maybe a little bit more. But it doesn't solve the underlying problem of the position of the Palestinians. And they are not going to go away,” Rogers told Anadolu.
The professor argued that the war between the Israeli military and Hamas is a battle of time, as the Israelis only have a certain amount of time in which they can defeat Hamas.
Because otherwise, the pressure from the international community, and particularly from the United States, will force Israel to bring the war to an end, he said.
[...] Yitzhak Brick, a major general (reserve) in the Israeli army and former ombudsman for the occupation forces, raised an alarm months ago that Hamas could launch an attack on Israel and that the country must prepare for a multi-front war, given the situation on the Lebanese border, but his claims were dismissed by the defense establishment and the political leadership.
He referred to Hamas as equipped, trained fighters who will cross the border on foot and attack with an aim to take back Palestinian land and conquer settlements.
Brick warned that the Israeli army has turned into a primarily air-based military, unable to win a war and fight effectively on the ground.
He accused the leadership of completely trying to avoid losing on the battlefield, suggesting that this “completely loses the deterrence of the army and the ability to win the war.”
“We have lost the ability to field an effective army and have become a one-dimensional aerial power that cannot win a war on its own.”
The current situation of the land forces “is tragic; they are not ready for war,” he told local broadcaster Channel 12 last May.
(Guardian) 10 Jan: West Bank videos show Israeli troops killing teenager and driving over man’s body (with cctv screen captures)
(MEE) 10 Jan: Exclusive: Gaza grandmother gunned down by Israeli sniper as child waved white flag (with video; treat with caution)
(AP) 10 Jan: Video appears to show the Israeli army shot 3 Palestinians, killing 1, without provocation
And yet, for all that:
(today; I mean yesterday) Israel car-ramming & stabbing attack: One elderly woman killed, 17 others injured in Raanana (AJ)
The video is actually a two-parter - the second half is the ongoing military and settler violence on Palestinians that has been continuing since before this stabbing attack. Note they're claiming the attackers had no legitimate work passes. Palestinians are either ghosts, or Israel cannot make the wall work. This isn't World War Z.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on January 16 [7 favorites]
Longreads on sexual violence coverage in this round of violence
This piece was before the NYT reintroduced this angle again, but because that piece treaded the same grounds, it's definitely still worth sharing -
(The Intercept - Judith Levine) There Was No Cover-Up of Hamas’s Sexual Violence on October 7
Two things are not true: That the October 7 rapes and sexual mutilation were ignored or covered up by the United Nations gender-equality organization U.N. Women and a conspiracy of Western feminists, global human rights organizations, and U.S. progressives. Or that behind this alleged rape denial lies antisemitism: “#MeToo, except if you’re a Jew.”
Yes, some individuals and extreme-left organizations have denied these atrocities or upheld them as justified resistance. But it is not U.N. Women’s role to make day-after condemnations of unverified acts of violence against women, and verifying such acts, particularly amid the chaos of war, takes a long time.
[...] How did U.N. Women, an unlikely villain, become the center of this whipped-up storm?
On October 13 — two days after Israel cut off food, water, and fuel to Gaza while it continued its indiscriminate bombardment — U.N. Women, whose mission is to promote gender equality globally, issued its first statement on the war: “UN Women condemns the attacks on civilians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories and is deeply alarmed by the devastating impact on civilians including women and girls,” it began. The 198-word statement called for “unrestricted humanitarian aid,” a restoration of the basics for survival to Gaza, and the “immediate release of hostages.” It reiterated the group’s support of Palestinian women in their fight for social, political, and economic rights. It did not say the same for Israeli Jewish women, who are already granted these rights under Israel’s Basic Laws. Hamas was not mentioned.
On October 20, the organization published a “Rapid Assessment and Humanitarian Response in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.” Among the bullet points: 493,000 women and girls were already displaced from their homes; 668,000 were in need of protection from gender-based violence. This document did not mention Hamas’s attacks either. It did not report on human rights violations or even provide a death toll.
The United Nations more broadly was not idle on the subject, however. Also on October 20, its Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory called for submissions to its investigation of war crimes committed on all sides of the conflict. The investigation, launched three days after the attacks, is applying particular focus to sexual and gender-based violence.
The first organized criticism of U.N. Women came on October 30 from the U.S.-based National Council of Jewish Women, the Israel Women’s Network, and 140-plus Jewish and Israeli women’s organizations. “It is inconceivable that a UN organization that is responsible for women’s rights is ignoring the hostages captured and held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip and the murder of hundreds of innocent people,” their statement declared. In fact, U.N. Women on October 13 did not mention Hamas, but neither did it ignore the Israeli murder victims or the hostages.
[...] In early November, Israeli women’s groups flagged what The Guardian called “significant failings” on the part of the state “in preserving forensic evidence that could have shone a light on the scale of sexual violence committed against women and girls in last month’s Hamas attacks.” One reportsuggested that the investigation’s lack of cohesion and coordination was to blame for the failure to photograph, preserve, or properly examine the bodies for evidence of sexual assault before their burial. In fact, said the Times of Israel, the problem wasn’t necessarily incompetence; not using “time-consuming crime scene investigation protocols to document rape cases” was the result of forensic triage, which prioritized identifying the dead, burned, and decaying bodies. That decision, claimed the Times, “has fueled international skepticism over Hamas’s sexual abuse of victims.”
While the government was stumbling, it fell to civil society groups, such as the ad hoc Civil Commission on October 7 Crimes by Hamas Against Women and Children as well as Physicians for Human Rights, to document the assaults. One of the authors of the physicians’ group’s paper told the New Yorker that they excluded videotapes recorded by the Israeli security agency Shin Bet, in which Hamas fighters assert that they were ordered to commit the murders and “sully” Israeli women. Such evidence was “unreliable,” said the PHR author, because of what the paper called “severe concern that the interrogations included the use of torture.”
On November 22, the Civil Commission presented its findings to U.N. Women in advance of the Security Council meeting on the effects of the hostilities on women and children.
[...] documenting war crimes is a lengthy, painstaking process. Human Rights Watch issued a report two years after the Rwandan genocide of 1994, during which the Hutu-dominated government of Rwanda raped and sexually mutilated a quarter-million Tutsi women, girls, and men. The International Criminal Court tribunal against the perpetrators began in 1998 and lasted until 2022. The U.N. International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia spent nine years investigating war crimes committed during the Balkans wars of the 1990s including the rape, sexual torture, and enslavement of some 20,000 to 50,000 girls and women. The ICC is still looking into human rights abuses committed during Russia’s first invasion of Ukraine, in 2014.
Israeli officials have twice revised the death toll from October 7 downward from an original estimate of 1,400. In November they announced it was “around 1,200.” A month later the data were more precise: 695 Israeli civilians killed, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, for a total of 1,139. Lahav 433, the country’s FBI, does not expect to finish its fact-finding on the Hamas-led incursion for many months.
But on Fox News, the punchline was preordained. It’s time to defund the U.N., Lahren asserted. The National Review chimed in: “UN Women Is a Disgrace.”
[...] “There is a litmus test” applied to Palestinians by Jews and Israelis in the anti-occupation left, said Emily Schaeffer Omer-Man, a Jewish human rights litigator who challenges Israeli policies in court. Not only must Palestinians denounce Hamas, they must also do so in certain words, like “barbaric.” To fail the test is to be assumed indifferent to Jewish trauma. Equivalent denunciations — of the siege, the genocidal discourse of high Israeli officials — are not required of Jews.
This testing is not malicious. It comes from a desire, on the part of Jews, for comfort from one’s comrades in an hour of trauma. Nevertheless, it has a pernicious effect: silencing Palestinians, whose anguish and rage are both historic and reignited by the present, escalating catastrophe. Requiring the performance of caring undermines the unity needed to actualize it. “I am afraid this will tear apart the progressive left if we can’t get beyond it,” said Omer-Man.
This one is after the NYT piece and directly addresses it: (Palestine Studies - Randa Abdel-Fattah) A Critical Look at The New York Times' Weaponization of Rape in Service of Israeli Propaganda
The challenge to these allegations of systematic rape is not about claiming Israeli Jewish women cannot be victims of sexual violence. It is not a question of challenging the allegations because the people making them are Jewish (the argument you make if you want to smear every critique as antisemitic). Finally, it is not about defending Palestinian men at all costs because they are subjected to systematic brutality at the hands of the Israeli regime as a belligerent occupying power, as if this somehow excuses acts of, or can ever be an alibi for, sexual violence.
It is about accountability, transparency, and consistency. Let's start with consistency.
It is normative practice for allegations of systematic rape used as a weapon of war to be subject to evidentiary standards and due process. Two years after the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Human Rights Watch issued a report of its investigation into the systematic rape and sexual mutilation of a quarter-million Tutsi women, girls, and men by the Hutu-dominated government of Rwanda. The report was based on “the testimony of rape victims themselves and rape victims who witnessed others being raped, other witnesses, doctors at the hospitals who had treated hundreds of rape victims, humanitarian organizations with programs for women, the UN Special Rapporteur's report on the situation of human rights in Rwanda.” In 2000, Human Rights Watch issued its report into gender-based violence against Kosovar Albanian women based on rigorous evidentiary standards.
However, in the case of Israeli claims of mass rape on Oct. 7, all standards of evidence and accountability have been suspended by institutionally powerful players, including Human Rights Watch. Indeed, those who demand that Israel be held to the same standards as everyone else are accused of antisemitism.
And so here we are. Even though Israeli police admit that they still have no victims or eyewitnesses [I've seen this in Israeli media inc Haaretz but also the others]; even though the sister of the report's primary victim, Gal Abdush, has publicly denied that her sister was raped, accusing The New York Times of manipulating her family for the story; and even though there is no forensic evidence, and there are questions to be answered about the reliability and independence of the supposed witnesses and their testimonies put forward so far, the mass rape claims are still actively being circulated and given credence by elites in the media and those with institutional power.
What does it, therefore, say about the level of anti-Palestinian, anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia that the reflexive position of so many ‘progressives' is to dismiss demands for an anti-racist, anti-rape discourse as ‘whataboutism'?
To even pose a question about why there are double standards in the case of Israel or why normative investigative practice is being suspended, ‘liberal feminists' resort to accusing those who take a critical intersectional approach of being ‘rape apologists' or ‘not believing Jewish women,' or ‘undermining the #MeToo movement,' or all of the above.
[...] Race-critical feminists have filled libraries with books and writings on the historical and contemporary iterations of rape atrocity propaganda in the service of war, imperialism, and maintaining racial hierarchies. In the violent settler colony of Australia from where I write, Indigenous scholars such as Larissa Behrendt and Judy Atkinson have written about systematic sexual abuse of and assaults against Aboriginal women by White Australian colonialists as a function of conquest. Angela Davis' seminal text, “Rape, Racism and the Myth of the Black Rapist” (1981), showed how the racist trope of the African American rapist was mobilized after the Civil War to justify lynching and race hierarchies. Chicana scholar Antonia Castaneda has written about sexual violence waged against Amerindian Women in service of the Spanish conquest of Alta California. In 2007, Lebanese-Australian feminist and scholar Paula Abood analyzed media representations of group sexual assaults that took place in south-west Sydney and interrogated how racial ideologies were mobilized within media texts to “present rape as a manifestation of Arab male bestiality” to “reassert racialized subject positions.”
In the context of the mass rape claims allegations against Palestinians, invoking these histories of scholarship and activism is critical. It is telling that when the accused is Palestinian/Arab/Middle Eastern/Muslim — always treated as interchangeable, stripped of their individual complexities and diverse identities — liberal and colonial feminists and many prominent progressives of color have ended up on the same side of the argument as Israel's right-wing genocide-cheerleaders. They have ended up on the same side as pro-Israel propagandists who are deliberately invested in whipping up genocide fervor and distracting attention from Israel's atrocities on Palestinians. Israel's propagandists comprehend all too well that the racist trope of the predatory Palestinian/Muslim/Arab man is the legitimizing monster that White feminists, liberals, and many progressives of color — those who are the institutionalized experts on diversity and inclusion — feed on. Thus, have we seen how the ‘rapist' has become a metonym that easily slides between words — ‘Hamas terrorist,' Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Gaza — because sustained global media and political narratives and moral panics have long stigmatized and maligned Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern men as deviant, violent, criminal, hypersexualized, misogynistic, barbaric, woman-hating. Understanding this ideological and representational context means recognizing that allegations by a colonizing entity like Israel are made in specific racially charged and politically primed environments. Zionist propagandists understand that the racist constructs and Orientalist imaginings about Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern men are so deeply embedded and known that it is able to proffer hyper-inflammatory, gruesome stories and claims, produce no credible evidence, then refuse to participate in a UN commission tasked to investigate the allegations.
I had to turn on VPN for this, no prizes for guessing why?
Anyway, the GTranslate version: (Kan) An "anti-Semitic" committee of the UN will interrogate doctors on October 7
TL;DR Reps from the UN Human Rights Council have approached Israeli doctors who provided care and treatment for Oct 7 to obtain information and their testimony. However the Israeli Justice Ministry instructed the Health Ministry’s Legal Bureau to not cooperate with the UN investigation as people involved are biased, anti-Israel, and antisemitic. (15 Jan story)
(anyone else from IP locations considered friendlier to Israeli media might want to see what their IP address can net, probably better than mine)
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
This piece was before the NYT reintroduced this angle again, but because that piece treaded the same grounds, it's definitely still worth sharing -
(The Intercept - Judith Levine) There Was No Cover-Up of Hamas’s Sexual Violence on October 7
Two things are not true: That the October 7 rapes and sexual mutilation were ignored or covered up by the United Nations gender-equality organization U.N. Women and a conspiracy of Western feminists, global human rights organizations, and U.S. progressives. Or that behind this alleged rape denial lies antisemitism: “#MeToo, except if you’re a Jew.”
Yes, some individuals and extreme-left organizations have denied these atrocities or upheld them as justified resistance. But it is not U.N. Women’s role to make day-after condemnations of unverified acts of violence against women, and verifying such acts, particularly amid the chaos of war, takes a long time.
[...] How did U.N. Women, an unlikely villain, become the center of this whipped-up storm?
On October 13 — two days after Israel cut off food, water, and fuel to Gaza while it continued its indiscriminate bombardment — U.N. Women, whose mission is to promote gender equality globally, issued its first statement on the war: “UN Women condemns the attacks on civilians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories and is deeply alarmed by the devastating impact on civilians including women and girls,” it began. The 198-word statement called for “unrestricted humanitarian aid,” a restoration of the basics for survival to Gaza, and the “immediate release of hostages.” It reiterated the group’s support of Palestinian women in their fight for social, political, and economic rights. It did not say the same for Israeli Jewish women, who are already granted these rights under Israel’s Basic Laws. Hamas was not mentioned.
On October 20, the organization published a “Rapid Assessment and Humanitarian Response in the Occupied Palestinian Territory.” Among the bullet points: 493,000 women and girls were already displaced from their homes; 668,000 were in need of protection from gender-based violence. This document did not mention Hamas’s attacks either. It did not report on human rights violations or even provide a death toll.
The United Nations more broadly was not idle on the subject, however. Also on October 20, its Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory called for submissions to its investigation of war crimes committed on all sides of the conflict. The investigation, launched three days after the attacks, is applying particular focus to sexual and gender-based violence.
The first organized criticism of U.N. Women came on October 30 from the U.S.-based National Council of Jewish Women, the Israel Women’s Network, and 140-plus Jewish and Israeli women’s organizations. “It is inconceivable that a UN organization that is responsible for women’s rights is ignoring the hostages captured and held by Hamas in the Gaza Strip and the murder of hundreds of innocent people,” their statement declared. In fact, U.N. Women on October 13 did not mention Hamas, but neither did it ignore the Israeli murder victims or the hostages.
[...] In early November, Israeli women’s groups flagged what The Guardian called “significant failings” on the part of the state “in preserving forensic evidence that could have shone a light on the scale of sexual violence committed against women and girls in last month’s Hamas attacks.” One reportsuggested that the investigation’s lack of cohesion and coordination was to blame for the failure to photograph, preserve, or properly examine the bodies for evidence of sexual assault before their burial. In fact, said the Times of Israel, the problem wasn’t necessarily incompetence; not using “time-consuming crime scene investigation protocols to document rape cases” was the result of forensic triage, which prioritized identifying the dead, burned, and decaying bodies. That decision, claimed the Times, “has fueled international skepticism over Hamas’s sexual abuse of victims.”
While the government was stumbling, it fell to civil society groups, such as the ad hoc Civil Commission on October 7 Crimes by Hamas Against Women and Children as well as Physicians for Human Rights, to document the assaults. One of the authors of the physicians’ group’s paper told the New Yorker that they excluded videotapes recorded by the Israeli security agency Shin Bet, in which Hamas fighters assert that they were ordered to commit the murders and “sully” Israeli women. Such evidence was “unreliable,” said the PHR author, because of what the paper called “severe concern that the interrogations included the use of torture.”
On November 22, the Civil Commission presented its findings to U.N. Women in advance of the Security Council meeting on the effects of the hostilities on women and children.
[...] documenting war crimes is a lengthy, painstaking process. Human Rights Watch issued a report two years after the Rwandan genocide of 1994, during which the Hutu-dominated government of Rwanda raped and sexually mutilated a quarter-million Tutsi women, girls, and men. The International Criminal Court tribunal against the perpetrators began in 1998 and lasted until 2022. The U.N. International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia spent nine years investigating war crimes committed during the Balkans wars of the 1990s including the rape, sexual torture, and enslavement of some 20,000 to 50,000 girls and women. The ICC is still looking into human rights abuses committed during Russia’s first invasion of Ukraine, in 2014.
Israeli officials have twice revised the death toll from October 7 downward from an original estimate of 1,400. In November they announced it was “around 1,200.” A month later the data were more precise: 695 Israeli civilians killed, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, for a total of 1,139. Lahav 433, the country’s FBI, does not expect to finish its fact-finding on the Hamas-led incursion for many months.
But on Fox News, the punchline was preordained. It’s time to defund the U.N., Lahren asserted. The National Review chimed in: “UN Women Is a Disgrace.”
[...] “There is a litmus test” applied to Palestinians by Jews and Israelis in the anti-occupation left, said Emily Schaeffer Omer-Man, a Jewish human rights litigator who challenges Israeli policies in court. Not only must Palestinians denounce Hamas, they must also do so in certain words, like “barbaric.” To fail the test is to be assumed indifferent to Jewish trauma. Equivalent denunciations — of the siege, the genocidal discourse of high Israeli officials — are not required of Jews.
This testing is not malicious. It comes from a desire, on the part of Jews, for comfort from one’s comrades in an hour of trauma. Nevertheless, it has a pernicious effect: silencing Palestinians, whose anguish and rage are both historic and reignited by the present, escalating catastrophe. Requiring the performance of caring undermines the unity needed to actualize it. “I am afraid this will tear apart the progressive left if we can’t get beyond it,” said Omer-Man.
This one is after the NYT piece and directly addresses it: (Palestine Studies - Randa Abdel-Fattah) A Critical Look at The New York Times' Weaponization of Rape in Service of Israeli Propaganda
The challenge to these allegations of systematic rape is not about claiming Israeli Jewish women cannot be victims of sexual violence. It is not a question of challenging the allegations because the people making them are Jewish (the argument you make if you want to smear every critique as antisemitic). Finally, it is not about defending Palestinian men at all costs because they are subjected to systematic brutality at the hands of the Israeli regime as a belligerent occupying power, as if this somehow excuses acts of, or can ever be an alibi for, sexual violence.
It is about accountability, transparency, and consistency. Let's start with consistency.
It is normative practice for allegations of systematic rape used as a weapon of war to be subject to evidentiary standards and due process. Two years after the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Human Rights Watch issued a report of its investigation into the systematic rape and sexual mutilation of a quarter-million Tutsi women, girls, and men by the Hutu-dominated government of Rwanda. The report was based on “the testimony of rape victims themselves and rape victims who witnessed others being raped, other witnesses, doctors at the hospitals who had treated hundreds of rape victims, humanitarian organizations with programs for women, the UN Special Rapporteur's report on the situation of human rights in Rwanda.” In 2000, Human Rights Watch issued its report into gender-based violence against Kosovar Albanian women based on rigorous evidentiary standards.
However, in the case of Israeli claims of mass rape on Oct. 7, all standards of evidence and accountability have been suspended by institutionally powerful players, including Human Rights Watch. Indeed, those who demand that Israel be held to the same standards as everyone else are accused of antisemitism.
And so here we are. Even though Israeli police admit that they still have no victims or eyewitnesses [I've seen this in Israeli media inc Haaretz but also the others]; even though the sister of the report's primary victim, Gal Abdush, has publicly denied that her sister was raped, accusing The New York Times of manipulating her family for the story; and even though there is no forensic evidence, and there are questions to be answered about the reliability and independence of the supposed witnesses and their testimonies put forward so far, the mass rape claims are still actively being circulated and given credence by elites in the media and those with institutional power.
What does it, therefore, say about the level of anti-Palestinian, anti-Arab racism and Islamophobia that the reflexive position of so many ‘progressives' is to dismiss demands for an anti-racist, anti-rape discourse as ‘whataboutism'?
To even pose a question about why there are double standards in the case of Israel or why normative investigative practice is being suspended, ‘liberal feminists' resort to accusing those who take a critical intersectional approach of being ‘rape apologists' or ‘not believing Jewish women,' or ‘undermining the #MeToo movement,' or all of the above.
[...] Race-critical feminists have filled libraries with books and writings on the historical and contemporary iterations of rape atrocity propaganda in the service of war, imperialism, and maintaining racial hierarchies. In the violent settler colony of Australia from where I write, Indigenous scholars such as Larissa Behrendt and Judy Atkinson have written about systematic sexual abuse of and assaults against Aboriginal women by White Australian colonialists as a function of conquest. Angela Davis' seminal text, “Rape, Racism and the Myth of the Black Rapist” (1981), showed how the racist trope of the African American rapist was mobilized after the Civil War to justify lynching and race hierarchies. Chicana scholar Antonia Castaneda has written about sexual violence waged against Amerindian Women in service of the Spanish conquest of Alta California. In 2007, Lebanese-Australian feminist and scholar Paula Abood analyzed media representations of group sexual assaults that took place in south-west Sydney and interrogated how racial ideologies were mobilized within media texts to “present rape as a manifestation of Arab male bestiality” to “reassert racialized subject positions.”
In the context of the mass rape claims allegations against Palestinians, invoking these histories of scholarship and activism is critical. It is telling that when the accused is Palestinian/Arab/Middle Eastern/Muslim — always treated as interchangeable, stripped of their individual complexities and diverse identities — liberal and colonial feminists and many prominent progressives of color have ended up on the same side of the argument as Israel's right-wing genocide-cheerleaders. They have ended up on the same side as pro-Israel propagandists who are deliberately invested in whipping up genocide fervor and distracting attention from Israel's atrocities on Palestinians. Israel's propagandists comprehend all too well that the racist trope of the predatory Palestinian/Muslim/Arab man is the legitimizing monster that White feminists, liberals, and many progressives of color — those who are the institutionalized experts on diversity and inclusion — feed on. Thus, have we seen how the ‘rapist' has become a metonym that easily slides between words — ‘Hamas terrorist,' Palestinian, Muslim, Arab, Gaza — because sustained global media and political narratives and moral panics have long stigmatized and maligned Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern men as deviant, violent, criminal, hypersexualized, misogynistic, barbaric, woman-hating. Understanding this ideological and representational context means recognizing that allegations by a colonizing entity like Israel are made in specific racially charged and politically primed environments. Zionist propagandists understand that the racist constructs and Orientalist imaginings about Palestinian/Arab/Muslim/Middle Eastern men are so deeply embedded and known that it is able to proffer hyper-inflammatory, gruesome stories and claims, produce no credible evidence, then refuse to participate in a UN commission tasked to investigate the allegations.
I had to turn on VPN for this, no prizes for guessing why?
Anyway, the GTranslate version: (Kan) An "anti-Semitic" committee of the UN will interrogate doctors on October 7
TL;DR Reps from the UN Human Rights Council have approached Israeli doctors who provided care and treatment for Oct 7 to obtain information and their testimony. However the Israeli Justice Ministry instructed the Health Ministry’s Legal Bureau to not cooperate with the UN investigation as people involved are biased, anti-Israel, and antisemitic. (15 Jan story)
(anyone else from IP locations considered friendlier to Israeli media might want to see what their IP address can net, probably better than mine)
posted by cendawanita at 10:45 AM on January 16 [9 favorites]
Education Ministry Withdraws Funding of Jewish Event Over Arab Israeli Host
- Ha'aretz
- Ha'aretz
Bar Levi's statement to the council goes on to say, "We live in a 'Jewish State' and as the Wing of Jewish Culture, it makes sense that a woman who represents mixed marriage cannot represent Jewish culture." The letter bore the symbol of the Ministry of Education.posted by adrienneleigh at 5:55 PM on January 16 [12 favorites]
War on Gaza: How Israel killed Palestinians waiting for food trucks in northern Gaza
It was supposed to be a place where displaced Palestinians gathered for desperately needed supplies of food in northern Gaza.posted by kmt at 1:41 AM on January 17 [6 favorites]
But eyewitnesses have told Middle East Eye how on 11 January a large crowd waiting for a food truck on al-Rasheed Street came under fire from the Israeli military, with dozens killed and wounded in the attack.
The Israeli military shelled the crowd with tank fire and quadcopters. Muhammad Al-Salim, 27, witnessed the massacre, telling Middle East Eye that he saw scores of bodies strewn across the street.
cendawanita, I much appreciate your links and service to this thread. Please don’t damage yourself in the process. Take whatever time you need for breaks, self-care, work, whatever if you are not doing that already. Apologies if this comes across as patronising. I truly value your contributions here. Many thanks to those folks who have also contributed.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:57 AM on January 17 [12 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:57 AM on January 17 [12 favorites]
Thank you, but also thank you also to everyone else who's been regularly contributing links: adrienneleigh, kmt, Noisy Pink Bubbles, adamvasco, mediareport, are only just a few. If I can take a moment to suggest something: I think a Ukraine update FPP is really necessary - the overstretched resources and political wrangling is definitely impacting that side of things.
Also, now that even China is calling for a ceasefire and a resumption of a two-state solution, now my feed needs to be pruned because it's Uyghur genocide denial o'clock. Not to mention the way this is metastasizing into US domestic politics tribalism too. Fatal omnishambles.
posted by cendawanita at 7:03 AM on January 17 [15 favorites]
Also, now that even China is calling for a ceasefire and a resumption of a two-state solution, now my feed needs to be pruned because it's Uyghur genocide denial o'clock. Not to mention the way this is metastasizing into US domestic politics tribalism too. Fatal omnishambles.
posted by cendawanita at 7:03 AM on January 17 [15 favorites]
it makes sense that a woman who represents mixed marriage cannot represent Jewish culture
when something like that "makes sense" you're on the wrong goddamn side
posted by elkevelvet at 8:12 AM on January 17 [15 favorites]
when something like that "makes sense" you're on the wrong goddamn side
posted by elkevelvet at 8:12 AM on January 17 [15 favorites]
I agree, elkevelvet. It is, however, probably true that she can't properly represent Israeli culture, because Israeli culture is separatist and ethnosupremacist.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:23 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:23 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
Cendawanita is doing an incredible service with the aggregation of news and links in this thread. I want to encourage other mefites to consider supporting them through their ko-fi link in their profile. Note: Cendawanita has no idea who I am or that I'm posting this message.
posted by Jarcat at 9:45 AM on January 17 [6 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 9:45 AM on January 17 [6 favorites]
It is, however, probably true that she can't properly represent Israeli culture, because Israeli culture is separatist and ethnosupremacist.
I think you’re trying to be darkly humorous here? But there are non-Jewish Israelis, and that many people assume all Israelis are Jewish is as much a problem as when they assume all Jewish people are Israeli or support Israeli government policy. Sure, non-Jewish Israelis are in many ways second-class citizens, but they are Israeli and thus included if we say “Israeli culture” without any modifiers. This was a political decision, same as laws against racially mixed marriages in the US or South Africa were.
posted by eviemath at 10:50 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
I think you’re trying to be darkly humorous here? But there are non-Jewish Israelis, and that many people assume all Israelis are Jewish is as much a problem as when they assume all Jewish people are Israeli or support Israeli government policy. Sure, non-Jewish Israelis are in many ways second-class citizens, but they are Israeli and thus included if we say “Israeli culture” without any modifiers. This was a political decision, same as laws against racially mixed marriages in the US or South Africa were.
posted by eviemath at 10:50 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
So is there a group of people, living within the administrative boundaries of the Israeli state, cohesive enough to be referred to as a culture, that could be reasonably described as "separatist and ethnosupremacist"?
By what name should we refer to the most inclusive, thus largest group of people that can be thus described?
posted by tigrrrlily at 6:07 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
By what name should we refer to the most inclusive, thus largest group of people that can be thus described?
posted by tigrrrlily at 6:07 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
Quick notes:
- Bisan is still alive (she was at the last hospital still operational, under heavy bombardment), and she's mooting Jan 21 for a worldwide strike for ceasefire
- Motaz's last update on twt was yesterday, when he posted it's been five days of their telecoms being cut (again) - if you measure it, it's pretty much after Israel's oral submission at the ICJ
Genuinely, thank you to Jarcat and others who've decided to show me support. These threads are still a joint effort though. And please, considering the above, do consider if you can afford it, to buy eSIMs for Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 7:05 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
- Bisan is still alive (she was at the last hospital still operational, under heavy bombardment), and she's mooting Jan 21 for a worldwide strike for ceasefire
- Motaz's last update on twt was yesterday, when he posted it's been five days of their telecoms being cut (again) - if you measure it, it's pretty much after Israel's oral submission at the ICJ
Genuinely, thank you to Jarcat and others who've decided to show me support. These threads are still a joint effort though. And please, considering the above, do consider if you can afford it, to buy eSIMs for Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 7:05 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
eviemath: i was not being darkly humorous, and i am well aware that not all Israelis are Jewish. It is very often the case that there is a subaltern population within a state which doesn't have a lot of "official" impact on the broader culture, however, especially within a separatist or segregationist state. Look at "American" culture up until, like, the 1970s, for instance.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:20 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:20 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
tigrrlily: Zionists.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:23 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
And i'm really not certain why it's considered controversial here to consider that there is such a thing as a "national culture", expressed via (for instance) government policy and mass media -- which does not in any way obviate the existence of many subcultures and countercultures.
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:26 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:26 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
America has always had a number of thriving, well-developed cultures, each with as much claim to a label of “American culture” as any other. That some people only think of specific parts of white American culture as pre-1970s American culture - and not various Native American cultures, Black culture, or non-white immigrant groups that had also been in parts of the US for many generations by the 1970s (Chinese-Americans, for example) is a reflection of structural racism and erasure, which occurs in part via political government decisions about what to financially support or elevate as American culture. The US government didn’t extend cultural funding or recognition to, say, Black jazz or early rock musicians until relatively recently, yet those are absolutely an integral part of American culture, and were so even before receiving government or mass media support. Use of non-English languages (specifically, Spanish) in official government contexts has also been spotty until quite recently; yet Spanish (and other language) speakers have been part of America since its inception and Hispanic-American culture is also American culture. That non-white American cultures are typically given an extra identifier (such as Hispanic-American) while white American culture is given default status is likewise due to structural racism.
Some countries have histories that are a bit more ethnically homogeneous, so speaking of their national culture historically is a little simpler. But many countries that don’t owe their existence to immigration in the way that the US, Canada, Australia, or Israel do still also have indigenous groups that experience racist erasure when such a lens is applied (Samis in the Scandinavian countries, for example). And most European countries have experienced sufficient immigration from former colonies and other regions that their national cultural mosaic is now more diverse and complex than their historical national culture (döner kebab is now an integral cultural fixture in Germany, for example, despite what official government tourism bureaus might want to focus on).
Summary: yes, governments and mass media often elevate specific high-status subcultures as their “national culture”. This is frequently (as is the case in the example from Israel cited above in the thread) an intentional policy of erasure of minoritized cultures that functions as a component of a political project to keep power centralized within the dominant group. We don’t have to buy in to and amplify that inaccurate, racist framing.
posted by eviemath at 8:02 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
Some countries have histories that are a bit more ethnically homogeneous, so speaking of their national culture historically is a little simpler. But many countries that don’t owe their existence to immigration in the way that the US, Canada, Australia, or Israel do still also have indigenous groups that experience racist erasure when such a lens is applied (Samis in the Scandinavian countries, for example). And most European countries have experienced sufficient immigration from former colonies and other regions that their national cultural mosaic is now more diverse and complex than their historical national culture (döner kebab is now an integral cultural fixture in Germany, for example, despite what official government tourism bureaus might want to focus on).
Summary: yes, governments and mass media often elevate specific high-status subcultures as their “national culture”. This is frequently (as is the case in the example from Israel cited above in the thread) an intentional policy of erasure of minoritized cultures that functions as a component of a political project to keep power centralized within the dominant group. We don’t have to buy in to and amplify that inaccurate, racist framing.
posted by eviemath at 8:02 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
(Taken to its full conclusion, the singular national culture idea is what leads to racist/xenophobic white folks in the US telling Black Americans whose ancestors were brought to the continent as slaves, Chicano/as whose families have been in what is now the US for far longer than the white folks in question, and even Native Americans to “go back where you came from”.)
posted by eviemath at 8:17 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:17 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
(All Turkish governments, albeit to varying degrees, trying to impose a singular national Turkish culture on the country despite Kurds having always existed in the southeast part of the country is another example of why we should question ideas of singular national cultural identities imposed by governments. See also: Uyghurs and Tibet in China, Rohingya in Myanmar, etc.)
posted by eviemath at 8:29 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 8:29 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
Yes, i was engaging in shorthand, which you are correct, i should be more careful about. Arab culture and Jewish culture in Israel are very different overall (although the deep irony in the particular case of the event host is that she's apparently more-Zionist-than-thou despite being Arab Israeli).
However, Israel's dominant culture, as expressed via government policy and mass-culture/entertainment/news media, is ethnosupremacist and separatist. And since this was a government-sponsored event, the dominant culture is the one at issue.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:52 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
However, Israel's dominant culture, as expressed via government policy and mass-culture/entertainment/news media, is ethnosupremacist and separatist. And since this was a government-sponsored event, the dominant culture is the one at issue.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:52 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
Israel as a state wants to communicate to the world that they don't have any interest in being an equal democracy which represents all of its citizens. It's not agreeing with that as a policy to recognise it.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:59 PM on January 17 [11 favorites]
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:59 PM on January 17 [11 favorites]
Eyewitnesses who were able to escape death and reach Rafah tell horrific stories of how Israeli soldiers used civilians, especially male adolescents, as human shields or worse. One eyewitness who preferred to remain anonymous relayed a harrowing story of how Israeli soldiers, upon discovering a tunnel opening in northern Gaza, strapped explosives to a young 17-year-old man’s chest, legs, and arms and forced him to go down into the tunnel, lowering him with a rope and fastening a camera to his head. They would give him orders to go left, right, or forward as they observed from a screen aboveground.at MondoWeiss
The eyewitness says that when the soldiers were fitting him with explosives, they were laughing and cracking jokes, boasting that they would “send him to his God piece by piece,” and that he would “meet the virgins in the tunnels.” The eyewitness says that this practice was common in Beit Hanoun, as the army made use of thin young men capable of moving with agility in small spaces. The eyewitness says that when soldiers noticed suspicious movements through the camera fastened to their captives, they would blow up the tunnel and the young man along with it. Whenever the tunnel was revealed to lead to a dead end or was discovered to be deserted, the young man would return unharmed, and the soldiers would remove the explosives from him.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:04 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Kilani said that for around 24 hours, Israeli soldiers “took turns” torturing and humiliating him and his son, while preventing the elderly family members from using the toilet or drinking water.at Middle East Eye
“They tortured us by putting glass and nails in our feet, and by leaving us naked on the seashore from about seven or eight in the morning until after 2am. We were left without food or water or anything that could keep us protected from the cold weather,” Kilani said.
The 45-year-old said that if he or his son moved, the soldiers would hit them on the back with their weapons.
“They were taking turns. Any soldier who passed us would hit us. They refused to let us pee or drink. There were many elderly people among us. One of them told a soldier he was diabetic and the soldier told him to pee on himself. They were insulting us with very abusive words. The humiliation we experienced there, it wasn’t like anything we had seen in our lives.”
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:07 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
The Israeli army detonates the last university it hadn't destroyed yet. A scene from the explosion of the Palestine University (sic*) with 315 bombs. The university is owned by businessmen and is not affiliated with any political agenda.* (this is actually Al-Israa university, he corrects in following tweets)
Israel has destroyed all universities and about 70% of schools in the Gaza Strip.
If this is not genocide, then what is genocide?
(link contains a video of a controlled demolition, not an airstrike)
Ramy Abdul on Twitter
(alternate Nitter link)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:22 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
This week hasn't been good for the Israeli military, since even though the press is in mostly cheerleader mode, a couple of pieces that just haven't made it past to western media are out:
- (Ynet) [in Hebrew] The first hours of Black Saturday
From my understanding of the machine translation, there's now more details about the chaos and confusion that's been covered so far. It seems like the Hannibal Doctrine, even if not said exactly, was instituted in effect, and those included striking vehicles that we (like everywhere else) were discussing why they were buried so quickly. From the machine translation: But the "7 Days" investigation reveals that along with these, during these hours some of the most difficult, embarrassing and infuriating episodes of the army were also revealed. This includes a command system that has almost completely failed and gone completely blind; Instructions to open fire on terrorist vehicles, speeding to Gaza, even if there is a fear that there are hostages in them - a kind of renewed version of the "Hannibal procedure"; fighters who, due to a lack of communication, had to navigate aid from the air using their cell phones; Admirals who sent fighters into battle with weapons without intentions or ceramic vests; old and unadapted orders that were pasted in "copy paste" and sent to the field; fighter planes that wandered in the air in the critical minutes of the attack without direction; officers who concluded that there was no choice and must get jump helicopters at the "Combina" their forces; and even drone operators, who were forced to enter the WhatsApp groups of the kibbutzim to solicit targets from besieged citizens.
The report does follow some of the questions being asked about Kibbutz Be'eri tank fire casualties already following testimonials about that (eg this Haaretz op-ed: The IDF Must Investigate the Kibbutz Be'eri Tank Fire Incident – Right Now. Also this tv interview that is also embedded in this Uncaptured Media post: Israeli military killed Israeli grandmother on October 7, report says)
You cannot, in any good faith of any military institution and training, conclude that this is a force that has the discernment and wherewithal to receive continued support and do targeted urban warfare. (unless you're in Lebanon? Maybe that's the difference.)
Because, today/yesterday:
(Haaretz) IDF Says Unclear How Three Hostages in Gaza Died, but They May Have Been Poisoned or Suffocated
The Israeli army said it repatriated the bodies from a Hamas tunnel in Jabalya near the site where Ahmed Randour, the commander of Hamas' northern brigade, had been killed a month prior.
[...] In the IDF investigation, which was presented to the Sherman and Beizer families, it emerged that the army was not aware that there were hostages in the area at the time that it struck the tunnel in which Randour was located.
It also emerged that the IDF found the bodies of the three hostages in scans of the tunnels that they conducted after the event, and that there was not any intelligence information indicating that they were located there.
According to the army's pathology report, whose findings were also presented to the families, no signs of trauma or gunshots were found in the bodies of the three men.
[...] After their identities had been confirmed, their families were notified – but the IDF did not provide any information as to the cause of death of the three men.
Maayan Sherman, the mother of Ron, accused the IDF of killing her son by injecting poison gas in the area where he was being held hostage. She compared the circumstances of his death to the gassing of Jews in the Holocaust.
In a Facebook post, Sherman juxtaposed a picture of her son's face with a gas chamber and wrote that Ron was "indeed murdered – not by Hamas. Think more like Auschwitz and the showers, but without Nazis."
She asserted that Ron's death was caused "not from accidental gunfire, nor from crossfire, but from premeditated murder – bombing with poison gas."
Sherman wrote that "Ron was kidnapped because of the criminal negligence of all the senior officials of the army and this damned government, who gave an order to eliminate him in order to settle a score with some terrorist from Jabalya."
"Oh yes, they also found that he had several crushed fingers, apparently due to his desperate attempts to escape the poison grave that the IDF dug for him when he tried to breathe fresh air, but only breathed IDF poison," Sherman's post continued.
"My love, who would let me die in your place, what a nightmare you went through. Death in terrible agony – and all at the behest of the IDF, which you trusted and valued so much, and the [Israeli] cabinet," wrote Sherman.
Also: (NYT) C.I.A. Homes In on Hamas Leadership, U.S. Officials Say
Now let's home in on the actual report: It is not clear how valuable the information has been to Israel, though none of the most senior leaders of Hamas has been captured or killed. The United States is not providing Israel with intelligence on low or midlevel Hamas operatives.
Israel had estimated before Oct. 7 that Hamas had 20,000 to 25,000 fighters. By the end of 2023, Israel had told American officials they believed they had killed roughly a third of that force.
Some American officials believe targeting low-level Hamas members is misguided because they can be easily replaced and because of the unwarranted risk to civilians. They have also said the Israeli military bombing campaign in Gaza — which according to Gaza’s Health Ministry has killed some 23,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians — could end up replenishing Hamas’s bench of fighters.
Heh #1: The United States provided no intelligence for Israel’s Jan. 2 strike in a Beirut suburb that killed Saleh al-Arouri, a deputy Hamas leader, U.S. officials said. That strike relied on information collected by Israel on Mr. al-Arouri’s location.
The United States has also stepped up collection on Hamas with more drone flights over Gaza and has increased its efforts to intercept communications among Hamas officials.
A spokeswoman for the C.I.A. declined to comment on the task force or any intelligence provided to Israel.
The creation of the C.I.A. task force comes as America’s spy agencies have raised the priority of intelligence collection on Hamas.
Heh #2: Before Oct. 7, the United States generally relied on Israel for collecting most intelligence on Hamas, according to U.S. officials.
For Israel, Hamas was a far more important threat, and therefore a top intelligence priority.
But the Oct. 7 attack demonstrated that Israel’s intelligence collection on Hamas had significant weaknesses. American officials have also raised questions about what Israel shared with the United States.
In the meantime, beatings will continue until morale continues? Poor USA, you guys just gotta do everything over there.
But roll out the banners for this one though: (Jezebel) Miscarriages in Gaza Have Increased 300% Under Israeli Bombing
Due to limited resources, Awadallah says many c-sections and births “are being performed without basic medical supplies, or anesthesia and without any postnatal care.” Few are able to get or attend appointments with their doctors after giving birth, and many “have no option other than to stay in the overcrowded shelters.” As a result, a lot of “women are being dangerously exposed to infections,” the the risk of maternal mortality is high: “There’s now so much risk of hemorrhaging and infections without the right tools and medicines,” Beydoun said. And the many women forced to undergo emergency c-sections also face cesarean wound infections due to lack of clean medical tools for the procedure.
These conditions are similarly dangerous for newborns, who are “dying from a lack of sterile environment and specialized staff,” Beydoun said.
Of course, this is all assuming that pregnant women are able to be admitted into hospitals at all, where “priority is often not for women going into labor” and beds are rarely available for them, Awadallah said. The conditions at the Al-Emirati field hospital in Rafah demonstrate how overworked hospitals in Gaza have become: Beydoun said the hospital was “initially designed to receive 30 to 40 outpatient consultations from pregnant women on a daily basis—now they handle 300 to 400 cases daily.” The hospital has just one operating room and is “designed to have two to three c-section deliveries per day—now they’re delivering 20 daily.”
[...] Barriers to basic health care and resources aren’t new for the women and girls of Gaza, Awadallah told Jezebel: “Palestinian women and girls were already living in a severely vulnerable environment, in an area which has been blockaded from essential basic health services and products for more than a decade.” But the crisis has become more dire than ever, and “without a full and immediate ceasefire, and the unimpeded delivery of humanitarian aid across all parts of Gaza, maternal and neonatal deaths will continue to rise.”
posted by cendawanita at 11:04 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
- (Ynet) [in Hebrew] The first hours of Black Saturday
From my understanding of the machine translation, there's now more details about the chaos and confusion that's been covered so far. It seems like the Hannibal Doctrine, even if not said exactly, was instituted in effect, and those included striking vehicles that we (like everywhere else) were discussing why they were buried so quickly. From the machine translation: But the "7 Days" investigation reveals that along with these, during these hours some of the most difficult, embarrassing and infuriating episodes of the army were also revealed. This includes a command system that has almost completely failed and gone completely blind; Instructions to open fire on terrorist vehicles, speeding to Gaza, even if there is a fear that there are hostages in them - a kind of renewed version of the "Hannibal procedure"; fighters who, due to a lack of communication, had to navigate aid from the air using their cell phones; Admirals who sent fighters into battle with weapons without intentions or ceramic vests; old and unadapted orders that were pasted in "copy paste" and sent to the field; fighter planes that wandered in the air in the critical minutes of the attack without direction; officers who concluded that there was no choice and must get jump helicopters at the "Combina" their forces; and even drone operators, who were forced to enter the WhatsApp groups of the kibbutzim to solicit targets from besieged citizens.
The report does follow some of the questions being asked about Kibbutz Be'eri tank fire casualties already following testimonials about that (eg this Haaretz op-ed: The IDF Must Investigate the Kibbutz Be'eri Tank Fire Incident – Right Now. Also this tv interview that is also embedded in this Uncaptured Media post: Israeli military killed Israeli grandmother on October 7, report says)
You cannot, in any good faith of any military institution and training, conclude that this is a force that has the discernment and wherewithal to receive continued support and do targeted urban warfare. (unless you're in Lebanon? Maybe that's the difference.)
Because, today/yesterday:
(Haaretz) IDF Says Unclear How Three Hostages in Gaza Died, but They May Have Been Poisoned or Suffocated
The Israeli army said it repatriated the bodies from a Hamas tunnel in Jabalya near the site where Ahmed Randour, the commander of Hamas' northern brigade, had been killed a month prior.
[...] In the IDF investigation, which was presented to the Sherman and Beizer families, it emerged that the army was not aware that there were hostages in the area at the time that it struck the tunnel in which Randour was located.
It also emerged that the IDF found the bodies of the three hostages in scans of the tunnels that they conducted after the event, and that there was not any intelligence information indicating that they were located there.
According to the army's pathology report, whose findings were also presented to the families, no signs of trauma or gunshots were found in the bodies of the three men.
[...] After their identities had been confirmed, their families were notified – but the IDF did not provide any information as to the cause of death of the three men.
Maayan Sherman, the mother of Ron, accused the IDF of killing her son by injecting poison gas in the area where he was being held hostage. She compared the circumstances of his death to the gassing of Jews in the Holocaust.
In a Facebook post, Sherman juxtaposed a picture of her son's face with a gas chamber and wrote that Ron was "indeed murdered – not by Hamas. Think more like Auschwitz and the showers, but without Nazis."
She asserted that Ron's death was caused "not from accidental gunfire, nor from crossfire, but from premeditated murder – bombing with poison gas."
Sherman wrote that "Ron was kidnapped because of the criminal negligence of all the senior officials of the army and this damned government, who gave an order to eliminate him in order to settle a score with some terrorist from Jabalya."
"Oh yes, they also found that he had several crushed fingers, apparently due to his desperate attempts to escape the poison grave that the IDF dug for him when he tried to breathe fresh air, but only breathed IDF poison," Sherman's post continued.
"My love, who would let me die in your place, what a nightmare you went through. Death in terrible agony – and all at the behest of the IDF, which you trusted and valued so much, and the [Israeli] cabinet," wrote Sherman.
Also: (NYT) C.I.A. Homes In on Hamas Leadership, U.S. Officials Say
Now let's home in on the actual report: It is not clear how valuable the information has been to Israel, though none of the most senior leaders of Hamas has been captured or killed. The United States is not providing Israel with intelligence on low or midlevel Hamas operatives.
Israel had estimated before Oct. 7 that Hamas had 20,000 to 25,000 fighters. By the end of 2023, Israel had told American officials they believed they had killed roughly a third of that force.
Some American officials believe targeting low-level Hamas members is misguided because they can be easily replaced and because of the unwarranted risk to civilians. They have also said the Israeli military bombing campaign in Gaza — which according to Gaza’s Health Ministry has killed some 23,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians — could end up replenishing Hamas’s bench of fighters.
Heh #1: The United States provided no intelligence for Israel’s Jan. 2 strike in a Beirut suburb that killed Saleh al-Arouri, a deputy Hamas leader, U.S. officials said. That strike relied on information collected by Israel on Mr. al-Arouri’s location.
The United States has also stepped up collection on Hamas with more drone flights over Gaza and has increased its efforts to intercept communications among Hamas officials.
A spokeswoman for the C.I.A. declined to comment on the task force or any intelligence provided to Israel.
The creation of the C.I.A. task force comes as America’s spy agencies have raised the priority of intelligence collection on Hamas.
Heh #2: Before Oct. 7, the United States generally relied on Israel for collecting most intelligence on Hamas, according to U.S. officials.
For Israel, Hamas was a far more important threat, and therefore a top intelligence priority.
But the Oct. 7 attack demonstrated that Israel’s intelligence collection on Hamas had significant weaknesses. American officials have also raised questions about what Israel shared with the United States.
In the meantime, beatings will continue until morale continues? Poor USA, you guys just gotta do everything over there.
But roll out the banners for this one though: (Jezebel) Miscarriages in Gaza Have Increased 300% Under Israeli Bombing
Due to limited resources, Awadallah says many c-sections and births “are being performed without basic medical supplies, or anesthesia and without any postnatal care.” Few are able to get or attend appointments with their doctors after giving birth, and many “have no option other than to stay in the overcrowded shelters.” As a result, a lot of “women are being dangerously exposed to infections,” the the risk of maternal mortality is high: “There’s now so much risk of hemorrhaging and infections without the right tools and medicines,” Beydoun said. And the many women forced to undergo emergency c-sections also face cesarean wound infections due to lack of clean medical tools for the procedure.
These conditions are similarly dangerous for newborns, who are “dying from a lack of sterile environment and specialized staff,” Beydoun said.
Of course, this is all assuming that pregnant women are able to be admitted into hospitals at all, where “priority is often not for women going into labor” and beds are rarely available for them, Awadallah said. The conditions at the Al-Emirati field hospital in Rafah demonstrate how overworked hospitals in Gaza have become: Beydoun said the hospital was “initially designed to receive 30 to 40 outpatient consultations from pregnant women on a daily basis—now they handle 300 to 400 cases daily.” The hospital has just one operating room and is “designed to have two to three c-section deliveries per day—now they’re delivering 20 daily.”
[...] Barriers to basic health care and resources aren’t new for the women and girls of Gaza, Awadallah told Jezebel: “Palestinian women and girls were already living in a severely vulnerable environment, in an area which has been blockaded from essential basic health services and products for more than a decade.” But the crisis has become more dire than ever, and “without a full and immediate ceasefire, and the unimpeded delivery of humanitarian aid across all parts of Gaza, maternal and neonatal deaths will continue to rise.”
posted by cendawanita at 11:04 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Oh. Okay: Israeli military indicates it searched Gaza cemetery for bodies of hostages
The Israeli military has indicated to NBC News that it conducted search and rescue operations, including for the bodies of dead hostages, in a cemetery in Gaza.
Asked to respond to claims made by residents in Gaza that Israeli soldiers had desecrated a cemetery in the southern neighborhood of Khan Younis yesterday, the IDF said in a statement that it is "committed to fulfilling its urgent mission to rescue the hostages, and find and return the bodies of hostages that are held in Gaza."
"When critical intelligence or operational information is received, the IDF conducts precise hostage rescue operations in the specific locations where information indicates that the bodies of hostages may be located," the IDF said in the statement, which was issued today. "The hostage identification process, conducted at a secure and alternative location, ensures optimal professional conditions and respect for the deceased. Bodies determined not be those of hostages are returned with dignity and respect."
It added: "If not for Hamas’ reprehensible decision to take Israeli men, women, children and babies hostages, the need for such searches for our hostages would not exist."
posted by cendawanita at 11:37 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
The Israeli military has indicated to NBC News that it conducted search and rescue operations, including for the bodies of dead hostages, in a cemetery in Gaza.
Asked to respond to claims made by residents in Gaza that Israeli soldiers had desecrated a cemetery in the southern neighborhood of Khan Younis yesterday, the IDF said in a statement that it is "committed to fulfilling its urgent mission to rescue the hostages, and find and return the bodies of hostages that are held in Gaza."
"When critical intelligence or operational information is received, the IDF conducts precise hostage rescue operations in the specific locations where information indicates that the bodies of hostages may be located," the IDF said in the statement, which was issued today. "The hostage identification process, conducted at a secure and alternative location, ensures optimal professional conditions and respect for the deceased. Bodies determined not be those of hostages are returned with dignity and respect."
It added: "If not for Hamas’ reprehensible decision to take Israeli men, women, children and babies hostages, the need for such searches for our hostages would not exist."
posted by cendawanita at 11:37 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
eviemath, an excellent take. I was going to add the Chinese exclusion acts but you have that covered.
when I read the link about the Israeli minister of education comment holy moly I thought of Berhard Rust or the Strasser brothers. I'd use father coughlin but he wasn't a administrator.
sorry, the only analogy is a Nazi and I'm not sorry for that.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on January 18
when I read the link about the Israeli minister of education comment holy moly I thought of Berhard Rust or the Strasser brothers. I'd use father coughlin but he wasn't a administrator.
sorry, the only analogy is a Nazi and I'm not sorry for that.
posted by clavdivs at 1:03 PM on January 18
Not even Piers Morgan is buying "now look what you made me do" any more.
posted by flabdablet at 1:11 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:11 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
In Gaza, the West Is Enabling the Most Transparent Genocide in Human History by Richard Falk, former UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights in Palestine
Benjamin Netanyahu Literally Just Said “From the River to the Sea”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:24 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
Benjamin Netanyahu Literally Just Said “From the River to the Sea”
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:24 PM on January 18 [5 favorites]
I can't remember if this got posted in any of the earlier threads or not, but I think it's worth surfacing regardless.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:43 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Language was more of a minefield than the border between Syria and the occupied Golan Heights, and we, children at the time, were expected to hop around them, hoping we don’t accidentally step on an explosive trope that would discredit us. Using the “wrong words” had the magical ability to make things disappear; the boots, bullets, batons, and bruises all become invisible if you say anything in jest or in fury. Even more dangerously, believing in “the wrong things” rendered you deserving of this brutality. Citizenship and the right to movement weren’t the sole privileges robbed from us, simple ignorance was a luxury as well."Jewish settlers stole my house. It’s not my fault they’re Jewish." by Mohammed El-Kurd, in MondoWeiss
As Palestinians, we understand from a young age that the semantic violence we practice with our words dwarfs the decades of systemic and material violence enacted against us by the self-proclaimed Jewish State. A drone is one thing, but a trope—a trope is unacceptable. We learn to internalize the muzzle.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:43 PM on January 18 [8 favorites]
Netanyahu:
posted by flabdablet at 5:20 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Every area that we evacuate we receive terrible terror against us. It happened in South Lebanon, in Gaza, and also in Judea and Samaria [the West Bank] which we did it.Doctor, it hurts when I do this.
posted by flabdablet at 5:20 PM on January 18 [10 favorites]
Recent events finally got me around to watching The Gatekeepers, which is something I had on the backburner for a long time. It's a documentary that attracted some attention when it came out because it was the first time a former head of Shin Bet (Israel's domestic intelligence agency) sat down for a filmed interview, never mind six of them. The interviewer and his subjects have very frank discussions about how they ended up in their (then) current situation, and how to find a path to peace and security. The most depressing thing is how it's over a decade old but still holds up because nothing has changed, except for the worse.
posted by ndr at 10:03 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
posted by ndr at 10:03 PM on January 18 [1 favorite]
Israel will take over the entire region it currently occupies, “from the river to the sea,” according to an English translation on the Israeli news channel i24NEWS.
So they're openly talking about Greater Israel now. "One Nation, from the river to the sea, without Liberty and Justice FOR ALL."
This is not how this New York Jew rolls. This is not the one-state solution I'm looking for.
posted by mikelieman at 11:27 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
So they're openly talking about Greater Israel now. "One Nation, from the river to the sea, without Liberty and Justice FOR ALL."
This is not how this New York Jew rolls. This is not the one-state solution I'm looking for.
posted by mikelieman at 11:27 PM on January 18 [7 favorites]
A draft statement by professional midwives, OBs, and other reproductive health professionals focusing on the ways in which the genocide is an assault on reproductive justice.
(Related to the Jezebel article about miscarriages that cendawanita posted earlier)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:51 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
(Related to the Jezebel article about miscarriages that cendawanita posted earlier)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:51 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Dunno if the video will be up, but I went to this University of Wollongong webinar: South Africa v. Israel before the ICJ: Genocide and Provisional Measures, because it had:
- Professor Markus Wagner, University of Wollongong
- Professor Adil Haque, Rutgers University
- Juliette McIntyre, University of South Australia
- Professor Yuval Shany, Hebrew University of Jerusalem
So, with the full disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer, the summary of points of interest from my notes:
- Israel’s strategy (during their oral submission - they didn’t submit any written reply beforehand; also why SA had to anticipate the arguments, giving the impression the two countries were sailing past each other in their arguments esp as Israel didn’t really respond to the claims brought up by SA) at this stage seems to be trying to get the case thrown out of technical reasons (“formalism”/procedural stuff), hinging on the response time to SA’s note verbale (which they didn't respond to)
- Even if the court is sympathetic, it may not be enough; formalism as an argument isn’t particularly favoured.
- The public attention may be a dimension (?) but undoubtedly this is operating on two levels: political audience and legal audience.
- Legally the court will likely look at the actions up to the oral submission holistically anyway, in which case it’s the test of awareness and not evidence of action indicating a commitment to pre-hearing/filing discussions.
- Besides, technical arguments like this doesn’t preclude SA filing again
- The court does consider their decisions binding (enforcement is an issue but not their mandate) + an increase of cases petitioning for provisional measures. Or else, what’s the point?
- At this stage the evidentiary burden for the applicant (SA) is low, in proving facts as well as intent. And as it is, while facts are indisputable (and Israel didn’t deny them at the hearing, focusing on providing pre-siege justification), the challenge is to demonstrate the mental state of the decisionmakers (and it is considered unreasonable to expect applicants to provide solid or incontrovertible evidence of intent at this stage). As provisional measures tend to come at an ‘in-progress’ event there’s also the element of urgency and ‘irreparability’.
- Besides, preliminary findings can reverse findings that informed the provisional measures judgement. What’s the risk of ‘being wrong’? If don’t issue, people will die. If do, then IHL violations can be avoided.
- Israel wants to argue firstly, on their justification for their actions to date; that they’ve met the obligations of IHL in wartime conduct. Didn’t deny what they’ve done, just that it’s not ‘genocide’.
- However: 1. the other crimes at this level, eg war crimes and crimes against humanity, are still grave crimes. THERE IS NO HIERARCHY TO THESE CRIMES.
- 2. Justification is not an accepted defence for such crimes
- 3. On meeting their obligations is part of the arguments establishing intent - in addition Israel’s team didn’t anticipate or didn’t care, to address the full scope of SA’s application, which are: the acts committed (already covered above) + incitement (through speech and public actions) + enforcement. (my understanding: The last two segments, because the first isn’t denied may mean Israel can succeed on only one of them but not both, if there’s no genocide decided or not.)
- 3a. Therefore arguing about if they met their humanitarian obligations will need to see if you can make the case of inference of knowledge of the consequences of their actions as well. I.e. Is there genocidal intent even if humanitarian aid is allowed IF there have been warnings from numerous institutions of the likelihood of damage and fatalities if they proceeded which they did? If you provide warnings to evacuate, is that a meaningful humanitarian/wartime conduct if people either do not receive those warnings and/or cannot reasonably evacuate and therefore die when you launch the strikes?
- My understanding of Israel’s position based on a long back-and-forth between Yuval and Adil: Israel wanted to bring up the justification argument to rhetorically establish a context collapse between what constitutes a civilian and a combatant, ie if every Palestinian is a potential Hamas agent, then there is no meaningful distinction and current figures/calculations to derive the collateral damage figure is not applicable or relevant or correct.
- On Germany’s intervention - possibly politically unwise but definitely a legal challenge for their legal team. The expected conflict for their legal argument is because they already provided an argument that the threshold for genocide shouldn’t be so high that it becomes impossible to achieve on behalf of the Gambia when against Myanmar, ie an expansive argument. For Israel they would seek to constrict it again. If they don’t manage to thread the needle and make their position coherent then the arguments that are in contradiction with the previous one, it may have low probative value to the court.
- The court will then face the decision to establish a precedent either way - can countries present valid arguments on case-by-case basis; or does the fact the judgments being binding will establish precedent at the country-level?
- It may even be moot, depending on how the Gambia v Myanmar will eventually be ruled.
More and more countries are also announcing their interventions in various cases (Ukraine utilized it to great success), so this eats up time (?) but there’s a sense the full docket might mean Germany (and other countries) won’t be called on anyway
- That does bring up a point of discussion that is recognised in the field - is it time to redefine genocide, as there have been more than is acknowledged (legally) - “findings are rare but the facts are quite common”
posted by cendawanita at 1:49 AM on January 19 [7 favorites]
- Professor Markus Wagner, University of Wollongong
- Professor Adil Haque, Rutgers University
- Juliette McIntyre, University of South Australia
- Professor Yuval Shany, Hebrew University of Jerusalem
So, with the full disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer, the summary of points of interest from my notes:
- Israel’s strategy (during their oral submission - they didn’t submit any written reply beforehand; also why SA had to anticipate the arguments, giving the impression the two countries were sailing past each other in their arguments esp as Israel didn’t really respond to the claims brought up by SA) at this stage seems to be trying to get the case thrown out of technical reasons (“formalism”/procedural stuff), hinging on the response time to SA’s note verbale (which they didn't respond to)
- Even if the court is sympathetic, it may not be enough; formalism as an argument isn’t particularly favoured.
- The public attention may be a dimension (?) but undoubtedly this is operating on two levels: political audience and legal audience.
- Legally the court will likely look at the actions up to the oral submission holistically anyway, in which case it’s the test of awareness and not evidence of action indicating a commitment to pre-hearing/filing discussions.
- Besides, technical arguments like this doesn’t preclude SA filing again
- The court does consider their decisions binding (enforcement is an issue but not their mandate) + an increase of cases petitioning for provisional measures. Or else, what’s the point?
- At this stage the evidentiary burden for the applicant (SA) is low, in proving facts as well as intent. And as it is, while facts are indisputable (and Israel didn’t deny them at the hearing, focusing on providing pre-siege justification), the challenge is to demonstrate the mental state of the decisionmakers (and it is considered unreasonable to expect applicants to provide solid or incontrovertible evidence of intent at this stage). As provisional measures tend to come at an ‘in-progress’ event there’s also the element of urgency and ‘irreparability’.
- Besides, preliminary findings can reverse findings that informed the provisional measures judgement. What’s the risk of ‘being wrong’? If don’t issue, people will die. If do, then IHL violations can be avoided.
- Israel wants to argue firstly, on their justification for their actions to date; that they’ve met the obligations of IHL in wartime conduct. Didn’t deny what they’ve done, just that it’s not ‘genocide’.
- However: 1. the other crimes at this level, eg war crimes and crimes against humanity, are still grave crimes. THERE IS NO HIERARCHY TO THESE CRIMES.
- 2. Justification is not an accepted defence for such crimes
- 3. On meeting their obligations is part of the arguments establishing intent - in addition Israel’s team didn’t anticipate or didn’t care, to address the full scope of SA’s application, which are: the acts committed (already covered above) + incitement (through speech and public actions) + enforcement. (my understanding: The last two segments, because the first isn’t denied may mean Israel can succeed on only one of them but not both, if there’s no genocide decided or not.)
- 3a. Therefore arguing about if they met their humanitarian obligations will need to see if you can make the case of inference of knowledge of the consequences of their actions as well. I.e. Is there genocidal intent even if humanitarian aid is allowed IF there have been warnings from numerous institutions of the likelihood of damage and fatalities if they proceeded which they did? If you provide warnings to evacuate, is that a meaningful humanitarian/wartime conduct if people either do not receive those warnings and/or cannot reasonably evacuate and therefore die when you launch the strikes?
- My understanding of Israel’s position based on a long back-and-forth between Yuval and Adil: Israel wanted to bring up the justification argument to rhetorically establish a context collapse between what constitutes a civilian and a combatant, ie if every Palestinian is a potential Hamas agent, then there is no meaningful distinction and current figures/calculations to derive the collateral damage figure is not applicable or relevant or correct.
- On Germany’s intervention - possibly politically unwise but definitely a legal challenge for their legal team. The expected conflict for their legal argument is because they already provided an argument that the threshold for genocide shouldn’t be so high that it becomes impossible to achieve on behalf of the Gambia when against Myanmar, ie an expansive argument. For Israel they would seek to constrict it again. If they don’t manage to thread the needle and make their position coherent then the arguments that are in contradiction with the previous one, it may have low probative value to the court.
- The court will then face the decision to establish a precedent either way - can countries present valid arguments on case-by-case basis; or does the fact the judgments being binding will establish precedent at the country-level?
- It may even be moot, depending on how the Gambia v Myanmar will eventually be ruled.
More and more countries are also announcing their interventions in various cases (Ukraine utilized it to great success), so this eats up time (?) but there’s a sense the full docket might mean Germany (and other countries) won’t be called on anyway
- That does bring up a point of discussion that is recognised in the field - is it time to redefine genocide, as there have been more than is acknowledged (legally) - “findings are rare but the facts are quite common”
posted by cendawanita at 1:49 AM on January 19 [7 favorites]
This is not how this New York Jew rolls.
mikelieman, I had a meal and visit with a good friend last night and she (Alberta Jew) doesn't roll that way either. Our conversation and her description of her fears for her grandchildren, it all helped crystallize the damage this conflict is doing to Jews across the world. She is losing sleep, she fears the retaliatory anti-Semitism that is sure to follow, and mainly she is just sick with the horror of what Israel is doing. And far too many people associate Israel with "what Jews want" and that is a problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:15 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
mikelieman, I had a meal and visit with a good friend last night and she (Alberta Jew) doesn't roll that way either. Our conversation and her description of her fears for her grandchildren, it all helped crystallize the damage this conflict is doing to Jews across the world. She is losing sleep, she fears the retaliatory anti-Semitism that is sure to follow, and mainly she is just sick with the horror of what Israel is doing. And far too many people associate Israel with "what Jews want" and that is a problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:15 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
The Gatekeepers is excellent.
"Moreh told The Economist that after interviewing the Shin Bet heads, he decided that Netanyahu "poses a great threat to the existence of the state of Israel." He said that he seeks "to change the point of view of young Israelis. To tell them a story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not been told before."
posted by clavdivs at 12:59 PM on January 19
"Moreh told The Economist that after interviewing the Shin Bet heads, he decided that Netanyahu "poses a great threat to the existence of the state of Israel." He said that he seeks "to change the point of view of young Israelis. To tell them a story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not been told before."
posted by clavdivs at 12:59 PM on January 19
The parts of the filmmaker's interview in that link doesn't particularly inspire me with any interest. Maybe another time when I'm not up to my nose with access journalism that somehow diminished Palestinians and their right to self-determination.
posted by cendawanita at 5:37 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 5:37 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
This is the most sickening "war" of the century so far, which is saying a lot. And the people still defending these actions I can no longer abide. I have friends who spout nonsense and I've just cut them off and refused to engage on this topic or any other until they get their heads back into reality. This is one of the worst crimes of my lifetime, and it's deeply sick.
posted by chaz at 6:04 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]
posted by chaz at 6:04 PM on January 19 [5 favorites]
Proof There’s No Israeli Crime The USA Won’t Defend (Novara Media, Piped/YouTube, 9m35s) on the demolition of al-Israa University.
posted by flabdablet at 7:33 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 7:33 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]
Meet Tal Mitnick, First Israeli Jailed for Refusing Military Service in "Revenge War" on Gaza (Democracy Now!, Piped/YouTube, 13m44s)
posted by flabdablet at 8:43 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:43 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
The Guardian: Evidence points to systematic use of rape and sexual violence by Hamas in 7 October attacks
Warning: contains graphic descriptions
By cross-referencing testimonies given to police, published interviews with witnesses, and photo and video footage taken by survivors and first responders, the Guardian is aware of at least six sexual assaults for which multiple corroborating pieces of evidence exist.
The New York Times and NBC have both identified more than 30 killed women and girls whose bodies bear signs of abuse, such as bloodied genitals and missing clothes.
The Guardian spoke to a Zaka volunteer, Simcha Greeneman, who said in one kibbutz he had come across a woman who was naked from the waist down, bent over a bed and shot in the back of the head. In another house, he discovered a dead woman with sharp objects in her vagina, including nails.
At the Shura military base in central Israel, where most of the dead were taken, the reservist Shari Mendes, who was tasked with washing the female bodies and preparing them for burial, told reporters: “We have seen women who have been raped, from the age of children through to the elderly.
“We were in such a state of shock … Many young women arrived in bloody shrouded rags with just their underwear, and the underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw several soldiers who were shot on the crotch, intimate parts, vagina or shot in the breasts,” she added.
The most detailed witness account of rape is from a young woman who attended the Supernova music festival, where more than 350 young people were killed. The witness, who was shot in the back, said she was hiding in vegetation just off route 232 when a large group of Hamas gunmen arrived, who between them raped and killed at least five women.
“They laid a woman down and I understood that he is raping her … They passed her on to another person,” she told police in a video reviewed by the Guardian. “And he cuts her breast, he throws it on the road and they are playing with it.”
One raped woman was “shredded to pieces” and another “stabbed repeatedly in the back while she was being raped”, the same witness said in an interview with the New York Times. The witness has provided police with photographs of her hiding place, and another survivor hiding in the same spot has testified that he saw at least one woman being raped.
One of the festival’s organisers, Rami Shmuel, who returned to the scene the day after the attack, has described finding the bodies of three young women “naked from the waist down, legs spread”.
“One had the face burnt,” he said. Another was “shot in the face” while the last had been “shot all over the lower part of her body”.
One woman who survived gang rape at the rave was being treated for severe mental and physical trauma, police said, and was in no condition to speak to investigators.
The Guardian: Airstrikes against Houthis are not enough, says Yemeni official
Aidarus al-Zoubaidi says government ground forces must supplement air attacks and urges west to help
The Guardian: US carries out fifth strike against Houthis as Biden admits bombing isn’t stopping attacks
The US has carried out a fifth strike against Houthi rebel targets in Yemen, even as Joe Biden acknowledged that bombing the rebels has yet to stop their attacks on shipping in the Red Sea.
Soon after Biden’s remarks, Houthi militia launched two anti-ship ballistic missiles at a US-owned tanker ship that hit the water near the vessel but caused no injuries or damage, according to the US military.
posted by xdvesper at 12:20 AM on January 20
Warning: contains graphic descriptions
By cross-referencing testimonies given to police, published interviews with witnesses, and photo and video footage taken by survivors and first responders, the Guardian is aware of at least six sexual assaults for which multiple corroborating pieces of evidence exist.
The New York Times and NBC have both identified more than 30 killed women and girls whose bodies bear signs of abuse, such as bloodied genitals and missing clothes.
The Guardian spoke to a Zaka volunteer, Simcha Greeneman, who said in one kibbutz he had come across a woman who was naked from the waist down, bent over a bed and shot in the back of the head. In another house, he discovered a dead woman with sharp objects in her vagina, including nails.
At the Shura military base in central Israel, where most of the dead were taken, the reservist Shari Mendes, who was tasked with washing the female bodies and preparing them for burial, told reporters: “We have seen women who have been raped, from the age of children through to the elderly.
“We were in such a state of shock … Many young women arrived in bloody shrouded rags with just their underwear, and the underwear was often very bloody. Our team commander saw several soldiers who were shot on the crotch, intimate parts, vagina or shot in the breasts,” she added.
The most detailed witness account of rape is from a young woman who attended the Supernova music festival, where more than 350 young people were killed. The witness, who was shot in the back, said she was hiding in vegetation just off route 232 when a large group of Hamas gunmen arrived, who between them raped and killed at least five women.
“They laid a woman down and I understood that he is raping her … They passed her on to another person,” she told police in a video reviewed by the Guardian. “And he cuts her breast, he throws it on the road and they are playing with it.”
One raped woman was “shredded to pieces” and another “stabbed repeatedly in the back while she was being raped”, the same witness said in an interview with the New York Times. The witness has provided police with photographs of her hiding place, and another survivor hiding in the same spot has testified that he saw at least one woman being raped.
One of the festival’s organisers, Rami Shmuel, who returned to the scene the day after the attack, has described finding the bodies of three young women “naked from the waist down, legs spread”.
“One had the face burnt,” he said. Another was “shot in the face” while the last had been “shot all over the lower part of her body”.
One woman who survived gang rape at the rave was being treated for severe mental and physical trauma, police said, and was in no condition to speak to investigators.
The Guardian: Airstrikes against Houthis are not enough, says Yemeni official
Aidarus al-Zoubaidi says government ground forces must supplement air attacks and urges west to help
The Guardian: US carries out fifth strike against Houthis as Biden admits bombing isn’t stopping attacks
The US has carried out a fifth strike against Houthi rebel targets in Yemen, even as Joe Biden acknowledged that bombing the rebels has yet to stop their attacks on shipping in the Red Sea.
Soon after Biden’s remarks, Houthi militia launched two anti-ship ballistic missiles at a US-owned tanker ship that hit the water near the vessel but caused no injuries or damage, according to the US military.
posted by xdvesper at 12:20 AM on January 20
The Guardian piece is still reporting on the same points NYT did, and shamefully, hasn't even incorporated Israeli media debunking much of it, if we're disregarding pro-palestinian sources or international ones.
posted by cendawanita at 1:11 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:11 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
Also, for the (historical) record: (2022 Israel Academia Monitor) Revital Madar Accuses Israeli Security Forces of Raping Palestinians - Dr. Revital Madar completed her Ph.D. in Cultural Studies at the Hebrew University by the end of last year. Her thesis is titled “Repudiated Violence and Sovereignty – The case of Israel.”
In February, Madar provided a glimpse to her research when, as a Max Weber Fellow, she lectured on the “power structures that transgress the framework of conflict or war-related sexual violence. It is often taken as a fact that despite Israel’s diverse arsenal of violence, sexual violence is missing from its military toolbox.” Madar referred to “Tal Nitsan’s claim that apart from the 1948 war and its aftermath, the rape of Palestinian women by Israeli male soldiers is a rare phenomenon significantly contributed to the perception of Israel as a state whose military avoids the use of sexual violence.”
You can find the paper here.
Here's what's interesting for me, everytime I encounter Oct 7 coverage: In other words, the issue at stake here is first and foremost the categories and scales that inform claims over a state's limited and rare employment of sexual violence. Rejecting the tyranny of large-scale cases of state sexual violence and existing legal categories of sexual violence allows posing the following questions: What informs what we see and identify as state sexual violence? Why are the cases I present (none of which is classified or obtained directly by me from a Palestinian victim) haven't been gathered to this day as evidence of Israeli state sexual violence against Palestinians? Why did knowledge of these cases not lead to their consideration as the tip of the iceberg in relation to what we know about Israeli state sexual violence? Why, instead of exploring the silence around Israeli state sexual violence against Palestinians, was this silence used to acquit Israel?
TL;DR - Israel has consistently used technical categorisations and lack of firsthand testimonies to authorities to classify its occupation as singularly free of sexual violence. Read again that Guardian article, even the NYT one. Apply the same categorisation.
posted by cendawanita at 1:21 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
In February, Madar provided a glimpse to her research when, as a Max Weber Fellow, she lectured on the “power structures that transgress the framework of conflict or war-related sexual violence. It is often taken as a fact that despite Israel’s diverse arsenal of violence, sexual violence is missing from its military toolbox.” Madar referred to “Tal Nitsan’s claim that apart from the 1948 war and its aftermath, the rape of Palestinian women by Israeli male soldiers is a rare phenomenon significantly contributed to the perception of Israel as a state whose military avoids the use of sexual violence.”
You can find the paper here.
Here's what's interesting for me, everytime I encounter Oct 7 coverage: In other words, the issue at stake here is first and foremost the categories and scales that inform claims over a state's limited and rare employment of sexual violence. Rejecting the tyranny of large-scale cases of state sexual violence and existing legal categories of sexual violence allows posing the following questions: What informs what we see and identify as state sexual violence? Why are the cases I present (none of which is classified or obtained directly by me from a Palestinian victim) haven't been gathered to this day as evidence of Israeli state sexual violence against Palestinians? Why did knowledge of these cases not lead to their consideration as the tip of the iceberg in relation to what we know about Israeli state sexual violence? Why, instead of exploring the silence around Israeli state sexual violence against Palestinians, was this silence used to acquit Israel?
TL;DR - Israel has consistently used technical categorisations and lack of firsthand testimonies to authorities to classify its occupation as singularly free of sexual violence. Read again that Guardian article, even the NYT one. Apply the same categorisation.
posted by cendawanita at 1:21 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Then reread the other articles about how fraught it's historically been to establish evidence in active conflict areas where grave crimes are being committed. Then reread the Israeli press articles about the government instructing public servants to not cooperate with international investigations. Until western media actually start to keep up with their middle east cohort, at least their Israeli ones, the only coverage that has any value for me is their domestic news in this regard.
posted by cendawanita at 1:27 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:27 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
But in an exchange with reporters in Washington DC, the US president was frank about the efficacy of the US airstrikes. “When you say working, are they stopping the Houthis? No. Are they going to continue? Yes.”Why are the people in charge of US foreign policy so. fucking. obtuse?
posted by flabdablet at 2:01 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
(Arab News) Israeli strike on southern Lebanon kills two Hamas members
BEIRUT: An Israeli strike on southern Lebanon on Saturday killed two members of the Palestinian militant group Hamas as they were traveling in a car, three security sources in Lebanon told Reuters.
Israel has been carrying out air strikes on southern Lebanon against Palestinian militant groups based there as well as their Lebanese ally Hezbollah, a powerful armed group, which have fired rockets across the border at Israel.
What incredible precision.
Meir Baruchin wrote an opinion piece posted in the Hebrew edition of Haaretz. (English translation found on fedi, not sure if this is machine translation) He goes into more details of what's been covered in interviews shared above. I do worry, because this is the reception he's gotten from students. If you're a Hebrew speaker, brace yourself? The remarkable thing was that it was initially posted not to condemn the hecklers.
Anyway, Israeli twitter user, @ireallyhateyou has been documenting similar instances both at civilian, military, and govt levels:-
- this thread: 🧵A thread featuring only videos and screenshots from propagandist Yinon Magal's Twitter account, just from the last 9 days.
We start with a video of a D9 driver nicknamed "Dubi Gita" destroys a building in Khan Younis. Video is captioned "Dubi Gita avenges"צ
- and one-off posts: Even during war, Israel continues its 76 year long abuse of Bedouins. Destroying tents & structures in the un-recognized Bedouin villages of the Naqab desert. It is not talked about often, but the abuse and discrimination of Palestinian Bedouins in Israel have always been severe.
- a bit from the Tulkarem episode just a couple of days ago - "...we get a big help from god.. I can sense that our success is thanks to your Torah study"
Israeli soldiers in Tulkarm use Palestinian hostages as a background for a video they send to their friends.
No, it's not god who's been helping you do this shit, it's actually Biden.
(I don't know if it's a follow rec per se, there's just a lot of content - it's been daily updates of Abu Ghraib-level but on actual public forums/platforms)
On the Tulkarem incidents: Younis Tirawi - 🧵Tulkarem | exclusive details
Israeli military used electrical cables to bind the feet of a dead Palestinian, then dragged his body across the street using a military vehicle.
I spoke with several eyewitnesses & paramedics on the scene, this summarizes events up to now 1/13
This is a refugee camp not in Gaza.
Something interesting is happening I think politics-wise. Now CNN (which has embedded journalists with the IDF) has produced a report that combines data journalism, their embedded journalists, but also Palestinian journalism inc eyewitness testimonies shared earlier but cautiously received earlier due to worries about tropes (that's now confirmed by satellite data), about the cemeteries: At least 16 cemeteries in Gaza have been desecrated by Israeli forces, satellite imagery and videos reveal (includes video report to Jake Tapper)
CNN has reviewed satellite imagery and social media footage showing the destruction of cemeteries and witnessed it firsthand while traveling with the IDF in a convoy. Together the evidence reveals a systemic practice where Israeli ground forces have advanced across the Gaza Strip.
[...] A spokesman for the IDF could not account for the destruction of the 16 cemeteries CNN provided coordinates for, but said the military sometimes has “no other choice” but to target cemeteries it claimed Hamas uses for military purposes.
The IDF said rescuing the hostages and finding and returning their bodies is one of its key missions in Gaza, which is why bodies were removed from some gravesites.
“The hostage identification process, conducted at a secure and alternative location, ensures optimal professional conditions and respect for the deceased,” an IDF spokesperson told CNN, adding that bodies determined not be those of hostages are “returned with dignity and respect.”
But in other cases, the Israeli military appears to have used cemeteries as military outposts. CNN’s analysis of satellite imagery and videos showed that Israeli bulldozers turned multiple cemeteries into staging grounds, leveling large swaths and erecting berms to fortify their positions.
[...]On December 18, the IDF published an undated photo of what they said was a Hamas rocket launcher on the grounds of Shajaiya cemetery. CNN could not independently verify when or where the photo was taken.
It mentioned this particular cemetery: A second cemetery administered by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in central Gaza offers an even starker example. Mangled vehicles and destroyed roads lay all around the cemetery. But the graveyard itself, which contains the graves of mostly Christians and some Jewish soldiers from World War I, is intact.
It undersells the way it was presented on Israeli socmed but I don't trust my recollection so I need to find the posts again.
Anyway, I said I think there's some shifts in the air, or another front opening between the military+intelligence dissent with the war cabinet: (Haaretz) 'Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack
Kasher was hesitant to confirm the details of the event before an investigation has taken place, but he raised a different point. "I have seen all the versions of the Hannibal Directive and I have never seen any mention of [its use in reference to] attempts to kidnap civilians," he said.
"The idea that you would try to prevent an attempt to move [civilians] into Gaza by firing a tank mortar into the structure they are being held in is intolerable. It's unacceptable from the perspective of army orders. And it's unacceptable from the perspective of army values," he said.
Kasher stridently agreed with the families that an investigation is needed immediately, starting with the Military Defense Counsel and if need be moved to the State Attorney. "How is it possible that a high ranking army official would give a command that so immediately and definitely endangers the life of so many civilians? It's just horrifying."
The army has said it will investigate the incident, but only after the war is over. "This is their approach," Kasher said. "We hear it all the time from the army spokesperson: 'We aren't speaking about it now. The day will come. We will investigate and the results will be publicized to the public.'"
But Kasher believes this incident calls for an immediate investigation, similar to the one that was undertaken when three hostages managed to escape Hamas captivity in Gaza only to be accidentally killed by the Israeli army.
Kasher discussed another incident that took place on October 7, on the Israeli border with Gaza. According to an investigation conducted by the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, troops received orders to prevent hostages from being taken into Gaza by force, if necessary.
Around 12:00 P.M. on October 7, IDF helicopters strafed cars attempting to cross the border; there are unconfirmed indications that captive Israeli civilians were hit. According to Kasher, "On the surface, this sounds totally unacceptable from every aspect. Against orders. Against procedure. Against values. Against ethics. And possibly against the law."
Notably, this is an English report of their Hebrew-side media. C'mon westies, what's up?
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
BEIRUT: An Israeli strike on southern Lebanon on Saturday killed two members of the Palestinian militant group Hamas as they were traveling in a car, three security sources in Lebanon told Reuters.
Israel has been carrying out air strikes on southern Lebanon against Palestinian militant groups based there as well as their Lebanese ally Hezbollah, a powerful armed group, which have fired rockets across the border at Israel.
What incredible precision.
Meir Baruchin wrote an opinion piece posted in the Hebrew edition of Haaretz. (English translation found on fedi, not sure if this is machine translation) He goes into more details of what's been covered in interviews shared above. I do worry, because this is the reception he's gotten from students. If you're a Hebrew speaker, brace yourself? The remarkable thing was that it was initially posted not to condemn the hecklers.
Anyway, Israeli twitter user, @ireallyhateyou has been documenting similar instances both at civilian, military, and govt levels:-
- this thread: 🧵A thread featuring only videos and screenshots from propagandist Yinon Magal's Twitter account, just from the last 9 days.
We start with a video of a D9 driver nicknamed "Dubi Gita" destroys a building in Khan Younis. Video is captioned "Dubi Gita avenges"צ
- and one-off posts: Even during war, Israel continues its 76 year long abuse of Bedouins. Destroying tents & structures in the un-recognized Bedouin villages of the Naqab desert. It is not talked about often, but the abuse and discrimination of Palestinian Bedouins in Israel have always been severe.
- a bit from the Tulkarem episode just a couple of days ago - "...we get a big help from god.. I can sense that our success is thanks to your Torah study"
Israeli soldiers in Tulkarm use Palestinian hostages as a background for a video they send to their friends.
No, it's not god who's been helping you do this shit, it's actually Biden.
(I don't know if it's a follow rec per se, there's just a lot of content - it's been daily updates of Abu Ghraib-level but on actual public forums/platforms)
On the Tulkarem incidents: Younis Tirawi - 🧵Tulkarem | exclusive details
Israeli military used electrical cables to bind the feet of a dead Palestinian, then dragged his body across the street using a military vehicle.
I spoke with several eyewitnesses & paramedics on the scene, this summarizes events up to now 1/13
This is a refugee camp not in Gaza.
Something interesting is happening I think politics-wise. Now CNN (which has embedded journalists with the IDF) has produced a report that combines data journalism, their embedded journalists, but also Palestinian journalism inc eyewitness testimonies shared earlier but cautiously received earlier due to worries about tropes (that's now confirmed by satellite data), about the cemeteries: At least 16 cemeteries in Gaza have been desecrated by Israeli forces, satellite imagery and videos reveal (includes video report to Jake Tapper)
CNN has reviewed satellite imagery and social media footage showing the destruction of cemeteries and witnessed it firsthand while traveling with the IDF in a convoy. Together the evidence reveals a systemic practice where Israeli ground forces have advanced across the Gaza Strip.
[...] A spokesman for the IDF could not account for the destruction of the 16 cemeteries CNN provided coordinates for, but said the military sometimes has “no other choice” but to target cemeteries it claimed Hamas uses for military purposes.
The IDF said rescuing the hostages and finding and returning their bodies is one of its key missions in Gaza, which is why bodies were removed from some gravesites.
“The hostage identification process, conducted at a secure and alternative location, ensures optimal professional conditions and respect for the deceased,” an IDF spokesperson told CNN, adding that bodies determined not be those of hostages are “returned with dignity and respect.”
But in other cases, the Israeli military appears to have used cemeteries as military outposts. CNN’s analysis of satellite imagery and videos showed that Israeli bulldozers turned multiple cemeteries into staging grounds, leveling large swaths and erecting berms to fortify their positions.
[...]On December 18, the IDF published an undated photo of what they said was a Hamas rocket launcher on the grounds of Shajaiya cemetery. CNN could not independently verify when or where the photo was taken.
It mentioned this particular cemetery: A second cemetery administered by the Commonwealth War Graves Commission in central Gaza offers an even starker example. Mangled vehicles and destroyed roads lay all around the cemetery. But the graveyard itself, which contains the graves of mostly Christians and some Jewish soldiers from World War I, is intact.
It undersells the way it was presented on Israeli socmed but I don't trust my recollection so I need to find the posts again.
Anyway, I said I think there's some shifts in the air, or another front opening between the military+intelligence dissent with the war cabinet: (Haaretz) 'Unlawful, Unethical, Horrifying': IDF Ethics Code Author on Alleged Use of 'Hannibal Directive' During Hamas Attack
Kasher was hesitant to confirm the details of the event before an investigation has taken place, but he raised a different point. "I have seen all the versions of the Hannibal Directive and I have never seen any mention of [its use in reference to] attempts to kidnap civilians," he said.
"The idea that you would try to prevent an attempt to move [civilians] into Gaza by firing a tank mortar into the structure they are being held in is intolerable. It's unacceptable from the perspective of army orders. And it's unacceptable from the perspective of army values," he said.
Kasher stridently agreed with the families that an investigation is needed immediately, starting with the Military Defense Counsel and if need be moved to the State Attorney. "How is it possible that a high ranking army official would give a command that so immediately and definitely endangers the life of so many civilians? It's just horrifying."
The army has said it will investigate the incident, but only after the war is over. "This is their approach," Kasher said. "We hear it all the time from the army spokesperson: 'We aren't speaking about it now. The day will come. We will investigate and the results will be publicized to the public.'"
But Kasher believes this incident calls for an immediate investigation, similar to the one that was undertaken when three hostages managed to escape Hamas captivity in Gaza only to be accidentally killed by the Israeli army.
Kasher discussed another incident that took place on October 7, on the Israeli border with Gaza. According to an investigation conducted by the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, troops received orders to prevent hostages from being taken into Gaza by force, if necessary.
Around 12:00 P.M. on October 7, IDF helicopters strafed cars attempting to cross the border; there are unconfirmed indications that captive Israeli civilians were hit. According to Kasher, "On the surface, this sounds totally unacceptable from every aspect. Against orders. Against procedure. Against values. Against ethics. And possibly against the law."
Notably, this is an English report of their Hebrew-side media. C'mon westies, what's up?
posted by cendawanita at 8:38 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Something interesting is happening I think politics-wise. Now CNN (which has embedded journalists with the IDF) has produced a report that combines data journalism, their embedded journalists, but also Palestinian journalism inc eyewitness testimonies shared earlier but cautiously received earlier due to worries about tropes (that's now confirmed by satellite data), about the cemeteries: At least 16 cemeteries in Gaza have been desecrated by Israeli forces, satellite imagery and videos reveal (includes video report to Jake Tapper)
I just read that article a few minutes ago, and was going to post it here, so I was glad to see you already had done so. It's a lot more nuanced than the early reports (which as you say drifted into the vicinity of tropes of blood libel) and is all the more disturbing for the level of detail and cross-checking that it includes. As you point out, the article brings together a whole host of reporting on this, more so than most articles seem to.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:02 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
I just read that article a few minutes ago, and was going to post it here, so I was glad to see you already had done so. It's a lot more nuanced than the early reports (which as you say drifted into the vicinity of tropes of blood libel) and is all the more disturbing for the level of detail and cross-checking that it includes. As you point out, the article brings together a whole host of reporting on this, more so than most articles seem to.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:02 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
The west’s complete contempt for the lives of Palestinians will not be forgotten
Owen Jones, The Guardian
posted by lalochezia at 12:43 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
Owen Jones, The Guardian
posted by lalochezia at 12:43 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
@ytirawi on Twitter (vide):
posted by kmt at 4:08 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
They’re blowing up entire neighborhoods in Khan Younis |The pile of mines used with a smiling IDF soldier.
Israeli soldiers of Givati Brigade blew up 40 houses this evening, according to a soldier on facebook. See the mines used in the comment.
posted by kmt at 4:08 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
In addition to completely depressing the economy of Eilat, Israel's major port city, the Ansarallah blockade is delaying incoming medical supplies meant for IDF soldiers. (So … it's working, in other words.)
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:20 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:20 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
On the home front (if you're in the US): Columbia students who are also apparently IDF soldiers used a suspected IDF-produced chemical weapon on pro-Palestine protestors over the weekend. Columbia has made no statement; no arrests have been made; mainstream news does not seem to be covering it at all.
More info from various affected folks on Twitter (many of these links are threads, including some photos and other info): posted by adrienneleigh at 5:39 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
More info from various affected folks on Twitter (many of these links are threads, including some photos and other info): posted by adrienneleigh at 5:39 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
Different set of names in the bylines and clearly a different editorial chain than the cemetary desecration story - consequently the "IDF spokesman" replying to the reporting felt more visible with no Palestinian or Middle Eastern journalists attached to the story. Nevertheless, another CNN data journalism piece was also posted over a week ago, so before the bombardment and raid of the Khan Younis hospitals of the last 36 hours: How Gaza’s hospitals became battlegrounds
At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel's war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and humanitarian organizations. Fourteen were directly hit, based on the evidence collected and verified by CNN and analyzed by experts.
posted by cendawanita at 7:47 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
At least 20 out of 22 hospitals identified by CNN in northern Gaza were damaged or destroyed in the first two months of Israel's war against Hamas, from October 7 to December 7, according to a review of 45 satellite images and around 400 videos from the ground, as well as interviews with doctors, eyewitnesses and humanitarian organizations. Fourteen were directly hit, based on the evidence collected and verified by CNN and analyzed by experts.
posted by cendawanita at 7:47 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
There's been plenty more appalling news in the last 72 hours but tbh i'm kind of saving it for the new thread because this one has petered out.
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:07 AM on January 22
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:07 AM on January 22
The Columbia Spectator covers the chemical weapon attack; mainstream media is still completely silent.
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:06 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:06 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
More info on the chemical agent allegedly involved, which is manufactured by an Israeli company and was field-tested on Palestinians (as well as being used on them quite frequently). It's not available to the general public, but at least some US police departments have access.
The IDF’s appetite for foul smells is so insatiable, however, that it regularly uses designated Skunk trucks to soak Palestinian streets, gardens, homes, schools; equipped with water cannons, these trucks can turn entire neighbourhoods rancid. Nobody seems safe from the IDF’s thirst for “biodegradable” Skunk, not even the dead. A 2012 video shows police officials contaminating a Muslim funeral procession in Hebron, sparing neither mourners nor the body of the deceased from the stench of Skunk water. This evidence is particularly damning considering the emphasis on ritual purification ('Ghusl') in Islamic funerals.
Not everybody seems to share the same taste in perfume as the IDF; those that have inhaled its vile aroma write that Skunk “smells like a mix of faeces and animal carcass – gagging is almost inevitable.” Others have described it as “worse than raw sewage” and “like a mixture of excrement, noxious gas and a decomposing donkey”. One taster, Muad Tamimi, who works at a site frequently doused in the IDF’s “Cologne de Skunk”, says that it smells “beyond foul water, like a dead body and rotting food together, which no soap or perfume can take off”. Muad describes a reverse “Axe effect” in which after being “hit with it… nobody goes near me for days.” The strength of the stench seems to express something of the hate felt towards the Palestinian person. It is disgust communicated in a language more powerful than words.
…
Perhaps the worst part of all is that it sticks. An Israeli reporter notes that his camera smelled for nearly half a year after being hit with only a few drops of Skunk water. Skunk sticks to the body so much that it overwhelms the body’s own odour. This physical transformation results in experiences of humiliation and both personal and social exclusion. More than one victim has admitted that the spraying of bodies makes you feel “unhuman. It's a humiliation for people. What's going on? The people here are not animals.”
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:40 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
Bird watchers of the West Bank navigate a fraught political climate
In the last 15 years, he’s learned about the migratory and resident birds to look for, and where and when. His favorite periods are the twice-yearly migrations in the spring and autumn, when 500 million birds pass through from Europe to Africa and back again. It is the world’s second-most important flyway.
Birdwatchers here can stay busy all year long. One of the West Bank’s iconic landscapes is classified as Mediterranean mountain region, exemplified by hills covered in vegetation or rocky slopes and cliffs. These areas are a haven for songbirds. Then there are the deep valleys famed for being where some desert species breed.
…
A spokesperson for the Israeli Civil Administration, the governing body for the West Bank, said Israelis and Palestinians have the same right to access nature reserves and national parks, which they said were open to all people. They also denied that military zones or nature reserves were in any way connected to political plans to expand and sustain Israeli settlements.
But nature reserves in the West Bank’s Area C, which constitutes 61 percent of the region’s territory, are “part of a patchwork of corridors of controlled areas that Palestinians can’t use,” according to Adam Aloni, a researcher with B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights organization.
(2018)
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:15 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
NYT article on the Columbia skunk attack (archived)
WaPo: They were ready to give up on Israel. Now they’re all in. (archived)
A twitter thread referencing a Hamas publication addressing Oct 7th
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:21 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
WaPo: They were ready to give up on Israel. Now they’re all in. (archived)
A twitter thread referencing a Hamas publication addressing Oct 7th
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:21 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
WSJ summary of escalating developments in the forested hills along the Lebanon border:
A War in All but Name Simmers at Israel-Lebanon Border (archive)
Tens of thousands of Israeli troops are holding defensive positions in these northern woodlands. Hezbollah fighters fire missiles and mortars at them from hiding places in the pine forest...The Israelis respond with artillery and airstrikes. Merkava tanks wait under trees. Patient defense doesn’t come easy for Israel’s army.
“We are usually an attacking force, we take the initiative. Defending for 100 days is quite difficult,” said Razili...The army has dusted off and reprinted an old manual from 1956 on forgotten defensive tactics, such as how platoons should dig foxholes. The divisions in the north are also planning and practicing for an armored thrust into Lebanon. “We are ready for it,” said Razili.
posted by mediareport at 5:44 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
A War in All but Name Simmers at Israel-Lebanon Border (archive)
Tens of thousands of Israeli troops are holding defensive positions in these northern woodlands. Hezbollah fighters fire missiles and mortars at them from hiding places in the pine forest...The Israelis respond with artillery and airstrikes. Merkava tanks wait under trees. Patient defense doesn’t come easy for Israel’s army.
“We are usually an attacking force, we take the initiative. Defending for 100 days is quite difficult,” said Razili...The army has dusted off and reprinted an old manual from 1956 on forgotten defensive tactics, such as how platoons should dig foxholes. The divisions in the north are also planning and practicing for an armored thrust into Lebanon. “We are ready for it,” said Razili.
posted by mediareport at 5:44 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
from the article posted by mediareport:
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:14 AM on January 23 [7 favorites]
Israelis from apple farmers to army chiefs say the situation in the north is intolerable. The country fears losing a swath of its hard-won livable space. Israel’s defense minister and chief of staff warned in recent days that time is running out."hard-won livable space" is such a vile way of describing how Israel took that land.
posted by adrienneleigh at 6:14 AM on January 23 [7 favorites]
The US Media Is Ignoring Israel’s Campaign to Kill Palestinian Journalists (archived)
The Israeli military has killed at least 76 Palestinian journalists since October 7, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ). Local Palestinian groups put that figure much higher, at over 100. The International Federation of Journalists estimates that there were around 1,000 journalists working in Gaza before October 7. That would mean that between 7.5 and 10 percent of all the journalists in Gaza have been killed since then. By comparison, an estimated 1 percent of Gaza’s population as a whole has been killed—meaning that journalists are one of the most disproportionately affected groups in an already blood-soaked region.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:44 AM on January 23 [8 favorites]
Even if we accept the lower figure, that’s still more journalists than were killed in 10 years of the Vietnam War. It’s more than were killed during all of World War II. It’s more than four times the number of journalists who have been killed covering the war between Ukraine and Russia. The CPJ says that more journalists were killed in Gaza during the first 10 weeks of Israeli bombardment than “have ever been killed in a single country over an entire year.” The speed at which so many journalists have been killed is something we have never experienced in modern history.
The US Media Is Ignoring Israel’s Campaign to Kill Palestinian Journalists
A few journalists have had to evacuate in the past weeks. The most well-known would be Wael Al-Dahdouh and Motaz Azaiza, who just left safely in the last 24 hours. As for Al-Dahdouh, relatedly: (The Intercept) Israel Bombed an Al Jazeera Cameraman — and Blocked Evacuation Efforts as He Bled to Death
A new, in-depth timeline of efforts to help Samer Abu Daqqa reveals that Israel was repeatedly pressed to allow for his rescue, but kept emergency crews at bay for hours.
In addition: (The Conversation) Israel now ranks among the world’s leading jailers of journalists. We don’t know why they’re behind bars
posted by cendawanita at 9:33 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
A few journalists have had to evacuate in the past weeks. The most well-known would be Wael Al-Dahdouh and Motaz Azaiza, who just left safely in the last 24 hours. As for Al-Dahdouh, relatedly: (The Intercept) Israel Bombed an Al Jazeera Cameraman — and Blocked Evacuation Efforts as He Bled to Death
A new, in-depth timeline of efforts to help Samer Abu Daqqa reveals that Israel was repeatedly pressed to allow for his rescue, but kept emergency crews at bay for hours.
In addition: (The Conversation) Israel now ranks among the world’s leading jailers of journalists. We don’t know why they’re behind bars
posted by cendawanita at 9:33 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
A twitter thread referencing a Hamas publication addressing Oct 7th
Of note for me:
HAMAS AL-AQSA FLOOD OPERATION
SECTION 3
TOWARDS A TRANSPARENT INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATION
1. Palestine is a member-state of the International Criminal Court (ICC) and it acceded to its Rome Statute in 2015. When Palestine asked for investigation into Israeli war crimes committed on its territories, it was faced by Israeli intransigence and rejection, and threats to punish the Palestinians for the request to ICC. It is also unfortunate to mention that there were great powers, which claim to be holding values of justice, completely sided with the occupation narrative and stood against the Palestinian moves in the international justice system. These powers want to keep “Israel” as a state above the law and to ensure it escapes liability and accountability.
2. We urge these countries, especially the US administration, Germany, Canada and the UK, if they are meant for justice to prevail as they claim, they are ought to announce their support to the course of the investigation in all crimes committed in occupied Palestine and to give full support for the international courts to effectively do their job.
3. Despite having doubts from these countries to stand by justice, we still urge the ICC Prosecutor and his team to immediately and urgently come to occupied Palestine to look into the crimes and violations committed there, rather than merely observing the situation remotely or being subject to the Israeli restrictions.
4. In Dec. 2022, when the UN General Assembly passed a resolution seeking opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the legal consequences of “Israel’s” illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, those (few) countries who back “Israel” announced their rejection to the move that was approved by nearly 100 countries. And when our people – and their legal and rights groups – sought to pursue prosecutions against the Israeli war criminals in front of the European countries courts - through the system of universal jurisdiction – the European regimes obstructed the moves in favor of the Israeli war criminals to remain running free.
5. The events of Oct. 7 must be put in its broader context, and that all cases of struggle against colonialism and occupation in our contemporary time be evoked. These experiences of struggle show that in the same level of oppression committed by the occupier; there would be an equivalent response by the people under occupation.
6. The Palestinian people and peoples across the world realize the scale of lies and deception these governments that back the Israeli narrative practice in their attempts to justify their blind bias and to cover the Israeli crimes. These countries know the root causes of the conflict which are the occupation and the denial of the right of the Palestinian people to live in dignity on their lands. These countries show no interest towards the continuation of the unjust blockade on millions of Palestinians in Gaza, and also show no interest towards the thousands of Palestinian detainees in Israeli jails held under conditions where their basic rights are mostly denied.
7. We hail the free people of the world from all religions, ethnicities and backgrounds who rally in all capitals and cities worldwide to voice their rejection to the Israeli crimes and massacres, and to show their support for the rights of the Palestinian people and their just cause. /6
If it's a bluff it's hell of a play - could still be a bluff, especially since Israel is in no state to play checkers, judging from their ICJ oral submission.
posted by cendawanita at 9:49 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Of note for me:
HAMAS AL-AQSA FLOOD OPERATION
SECTION 3
TOWARDS A TRANSPARENT INTERNATIONAL INVESTIGATION
1. Palestine is a member-state of the International Criminal Court (ICC) and it acceded to its Rome Statute in 2015. When Palestine asked for investigation into Israeli war crimes committed on its territories, it was faced by Israeli intransigence and rejection, and threats to punish the Palestinians for the request to ICC. It is also unfortunate to mention that there were great powers, which claim to be holding values of justice, completely sided with the occupation narrative and stood against the Palestinian moves in the international justice system. These powers want to keep “Israel” as a state above the law and to ensure it escapes liability and accountability.
2. We urge these countries, especially the US administration, Germany, Canada and the UK, if they are meant for justice to prevail as they claim, they are ought to announce their support to the course of the investigation in all crimes committed in occupied Palestine and to give full support for the international courts to effectively do their job.
3. Despite having doubts from these countries to stand by justice, we still urge the ICC Prosecutor and his team to immediately and urgently come to occupied Palestine to look into the crimes and violations committed there, rather than merely observing the situation remotely or being subject to the Israeli restrictions.
4. In Dec. 2022, when the UN General Assembly passed a resolution seeking opinion of the International Court of Justice (ICJ) on the legal consequences of “Israel’s” illegal occupation of Palestinian territories, those (few) countries who back “Israel” announced their rejection to the move that was approved by nearly 100 countries. And when our people – and their legal and rights groups – sought to pursue prosecutions against the Israeli war criminals in front of the European countries courts - through the system of universal jurisdiction – the European regimes obstructed the moves in favor of the Israeli war criminals to remain running free.
5. The events of Oct. 7 must be put in its broader context, and that all cases of struggle against colonialism and occupation in our contemporary time be evoked. These experiences of struggle show that in the same level of oppression committed by the occupier; there would be an equivalent response by the people under occupation.
6. The Palestinian people and peoples across the world realize the scale of lies and deception these governments that back the Israeli narrative practice in their attempts to justify their blind bias and to cover the Israeli crimes. These countries know the root causes of the conflict which are the occupation and the denial of the right of the Palestinian people to live in dignity on their lands. These countries show no interest towards the continuation of the unjust blockade on millions of Palestinians in Gaza, and also show no interest towards the thousands of Palestinian detainees in Israeli jails held under conditions where their basic rights are mostly denied.
7. We hail the free people of the world from all religions, ethnicities and backgrounds who rally in all capitals and cities worldwide to voice their rejection to the Israeli crimes and massacres, and to show their support for the rights of the Palestinian people and their just cause. /6
If it's a bluff it's hell of a play - could still be a bluff, especially since Israel is in no state to play checkers, judging from their ICJ oral submission.
posted by cendawanita at 9:49 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
theconversation.com:
And perhaps Israel thinks it can keep a lid on its own part in making October 7 as horrific as it was by locking up Palestinian reporters, but it really can't. That ship sailed months ago.
posted by flabdablet at 11:14 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
The journalists Israel had detained were all from the occupied West Bank, all Palestinian, and all arrested after Hamas’s horrific attacks from Gaza on October 7. But we know very little about why they were detained.oh for fuck's sake you literally just told us why they were detained in literally the previous sentence.
And perhaps Israel thinks it can keep a lid on its own part in making October 7 as horrific as it was by locking up Palestinian reporters, but it really can't. That ship sailed months ago.
posted by flabdablet at 11:14 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Max Blumenthal & Miko Peled : Where is the War in Gaza Going? (Committee for the Republic, YouTube/Piped, 1h29m57s)
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 AM on January 23
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 AM on January 23
Do note, just for reference, flabdablet, that Blumenthal is very good on Palestine but extremely bad on Syria (he's a big supporter of Assad) and that's enough to discredit anything he says in the eyes of a lot of people. (Probably especially on MeFi.) He's a perfectly good source on the stuff he's not Extremely Wrong about! But it's worth knowing, as background if nothing else.
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:11 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 1:11 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
the Committee for the Republic video is interesting, thank you flabdablet
I am struck by the average age of the assembled group: most people look like retirees
also, the imperial gold eagle standing over the shoulder of the presenters
posted by elkevelvet at 2:16 PM on January 23
I am struck by the average age of the assembled group: most people look like retirees
also, the imperial gold eagle standing over the shoulder of the presenters
posted by elkevelvet at 2:16 PM on January 23
21 Israeli Soldiers Killed After Attempted Demolition (Novara Media, Piped/YouTube, 13m19s)
posted by flabdablet at 4:53 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:53 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
Israel Is Making Joe Biden Look WEAK (Novara Media, Piped/YouTube, 10m56s)
posted by flabdablet at 6:02 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 6:02 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
On that note, in very, "not my circus not my monkeys" mode: (FT) US urges China to help curb Red Sea attacks by Iran-backed Houthis
Diplomatic pressure on Beijing has not yet yielded results, say officials
----
The US has asked China to urge Tehran to rein in Iran-backed Houthi rebels attacking commercial ships in the Red Sea, but has seen little sign of help from Beijing, according to American officials.
Officials have repeatedly raised the matter with top Chinese officials in the past three months, asking them to convey a warning to Iran not to inflame tensions in the Middle East after Hamas’s October 7 attack on Israel and the ensuing war.
US national security adviser Jake Sullivan and his deputy, Jon Finer, discussed the issue in meetings this month in Washington with Liu Jianchao, head of the Chinese Communist party’s international department, according to US officials. Secretary of state Antony Blinken also raised it, said a state department official.
But US officials said there was little evidence China had put any pressure on Iran to restrain the Houthis, beyond a mild statement Beijing issued last week calling on “relevant parties” to ensure safe passage for vessels sailing through the Red Sea, a critical shipping route for global trade.
On Wednesday, the Chinese foreign ministry said Beijing was calling for a stop to “disturbance to civilian ships” and had “been in close communication with various parties and worked actively to alleviate the tension in the Red Sea”.
However, in veiled criticism of the US and UK attacks on the Houthis, the ministry urged the “relevant parties to avoid adding fuel to the fire”, adding that the UN Security Council had “never authorised the use of force by any country on Yemen”.
The Red Sea tension was also a “spillover” from the Gaza conflict, which should be ended as soon as possible, the ministry said.
[...] Suzanne Maloney, head of foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution, said she had discussed the issue with Chinese experts and had not detected any serious appetite to help.
“I think what they’ve calculated . . . is that this is a crisis that’s bogging the US and its partners down and it has not had a significant impact on Chinese shipping.”
Ma Xiaolin, a professor at Zhejiang International Studies University, said he believed Liu’s visit to Iran in December was not coincidental and that he would have conveyed Chinese demands regarding the need for security.
Ma, an expert on China’s relations with the Middle East, said: “China wishes for the restoration of peace in the Red Sea region and for international shipping to be secure, which aligns with the interests of all parties because this is an important global trade route.”
The Chinese embassy in the US said it had no details about the exchanges with Liu, but that China was concerned about the “escalating tension” in the Red Sea. The embassy said it served the common interests of the international community and that China urged “relevant parties to play a constructive and responsible role in keeping the Red Sea safe and stable”.
In the meantime, in a perhaps an unsurprising take: (Globes - Israeli business paper) How China profits from COSCO's avoidance of Israel
The big beneficiaries of this decline in cargo ship traffic in the Red Sea are small companies whose ships declare in their position reports that they have no connection to Israel, as demanded by the Houthi rebels, and Chinese-owned vessels, the proportion of which in the total number of ships transiting the Red Sea has shot up.
This trend demonstrates beyond doubt that besides the pressure that the Chinese seek to bring on Israel, they are also interested in the economic benefit arising from the fact that European importers from the East who want short supply chains have become highly dependent on Chinese shipping lines. The much shorter route via the Red Sea than via the Cape of Good Hope also ensures greater availability of COSCO ships than of those of its competitors.
Re: 21 Israeli Soldiers Killed After Attempted Demolition
There's this Hebrew longform investigative piece from an independent outfit Ha Akom that goes into this purification protocol during this siege with some detail.
Machine translation: For the past two months, the IDF has been carrying out systematic destruction of all buildings within a kilometer of the Gaza strip, without being criminalized as terrorist infrastructure
The death of the 21 soldiers yesterday is the second disaster resulting from the introduction of Israeli explosives in huge quantities into the Strip. The hottest place reveals that this is a proactive activity that has been going on for about two months of systematic destruction for the purpose of creating a "security strip" along the border, a kilometer deep into the strip, while risking the foot forces and without all the buildings being criminalized. In some places it was reported that one hundred percent of the buildings had been destroyed
---
The IDF spokesman claimed in his statement this morning that the disaster in which 21 reservists were killed in the Almo'azi refugee camp happened while they were "on a mission to blow up buildings in the buffer zone near the fence", with the aim of "destroying terrorist infrastructure". However, according to sources in various reserve units, collected over the past few weeks, the IDF is carrying out a systematic and complete destruction of all the buildings adjacent to the fence at a distance of a kilometer deep into the strip, without being criminalized as terrorist infrastructure, neither by intelligence nor by soldiers in the field - with the aim of creating a security strip that does not exist A living soul, contrary to international law.
According to the testimonies of reservists who came to the hottest place, the army divided the border area from the sea in the north, near Zikim Beach, to the Egyptian border in the south - into segments, polygons. Each section is a few hundred meters long and a kilometer wide. In each polygon, the goal is to bring about the destruction of one hundred percent of the buildings, from greenhouses to houses, regardless of whether or not there was terrorist activity in them. The army keeps a record of how many buildings were destroyed in each section.
According to sources in the army, an average of 10.5 mines are required to detonate one building, about 150 kg of explosives, compared to 1-2 tons of explosives in aerial armament. The same sources report that the ground armament indicates a high level of professionalism of the forces in using sabotage and emphasized the economic savings .
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 AM on January 24 [4 favorites]
Diplomatic pressure on Beijing has not yet yielded results, say officials
----
The US has asked China to urge Tehran to rein in Iran-backed Houthi rebels attacking commercial ships in the Red Sea, but has seen little sign of help from Beijing, according to American officials.
Officials have repeatedly raised the matter with top Chinese officials in the past three months, asking them to convey a warning to Iran not to inflame tensions in the Middle East after Hamas’s October 7 attack on Israel and the ensuing war.
US national security adviser Jake Sullivan and his deputy, Jon Finer, discussed the issue in meetings this month in Washington with Liu Jianchao, head of the Chinese Communist party’s international department, according to US officials. Secretary of state Antony Blinken also raised it, said a state department official.
But US officials said there was little evidence China had put any pressure on Iran to restrain the Houthis, beyond a mild statement Beijing issued last week calling on “relevant parties” to ensure safe passage for vessels sailing through the Red Sea, a critical shipping route for global trade.
On Wednesday, the Chinese foreign ministry said Beijing was calling for a stop to “disturbance to civilian ships” and had “been in close communication with various parties and worked actively to alleviate the tension in the Red Sea”.
However, in veiled criticism of the US and UK attacks on the Houthis, the ministry urged the “relevant parties to avoid adding fuel to the fire”, adding that the UN Security Council had “never authorised the use of force by any country on Yemen”.
The Red Sea tension was also a “spillover” from the Gaza conflict, which should be ended as soon as possible, the ministry said.
[...] Suzanne Maloney, head of foreign policy studies at the Brookings Institution, said she had discussed the issue with Chinese experts and had not detected any serious appetite to help.
“I think what they’ve calculated . . . is that this is a crisis that’s bogging the US and its partners down and it has not had a significant impact on Chinese shipping.”
Ma Xiaolin, a professor at Zhejiang International Studies University, said he believed Liu’s visit to Iran in December was not coincidental and that he would have conveyed Chinese demands regarding the need for security.
Ma, an expert on China’s relations with the Middle East, said: “China wishes for the restoration of peace in the Red Sea region and for international shipping to be secure, which aligns with the interests of all parties because this is an important global trade route.”
The Chinese embassy in the US said it had no details about the exchanges with Liu, but that China was concerned about the “escalating tension” in the Red Sea. The embassy said it served the common interests of the international community and that China urged “relevant parties to play a constructive and responsible role in keeping the Red Sea safe and stable”.
In the meantime, in a perhaps an unsurprising take: (Globes - Israeli business paper) How China profits from COSCO's avoidance of Israel
The big beneficiaries of this decline in cargo ship traffic in the Red Sea are small companies whose ships declare in their position reports that they have no connection to Israel, as demanded by the Houthi rebels, and Chinese-owned vessels, the proportion of which in the total number of ships transiting the Red Sea has shot up.
This trend demonstrates beyond doubt that besides the pressure that the Chinese seek to bring on Israel, they are also interested in the economic benefit arising from the fact that European importers from the East who want short supply chains have become highly dependent on Chinese shipping lines. The much shorter route via the Red Sea than via the Cape of Good Hope also ensures greater availability of COSCO ships than of those of its competitors.
Re: 21 Israeli Soldiers Killed After Attempted Demolition
There's this Hebrew longform investigative piece from an independent outfit Ha Akom that goes into this purification protocol during this siege with some detail.
Machine translation: For the past two months, the IDF has been carrying out systematic destruction of all buildings within a kilometer of the Gaza strip, without being criminalized as terrorist infrastructure
The death of the 21 soldiers yesterday is the second disaster resulting from the introduction of Israeli explosives in huge quantities into the Strip. The hottest place reveals that this is a proactive activity that has been going on for about two months of systematic destruction for the purpose of creating a "security strip" along the border, a kilometer deep into the strip, while risking the foot forces and without all the buildings being criminalized. In some places it was reported that one hundred percent of the buildings had been destroyed
---
The IDF spokesman claimed in his statement this morning that the disaster in which 21 reservists were killed in the Almo'azi refugee camp happened while they were "on a mission to blow up buildings in the buffer zone near the fence", with the aim of "destroying terrorist infrastructure". However, according to sources in various reserve units, collected over the past few weeks, the IDF is carrying out a systematic and complete destruction of all the buildings adjacent to the fence at a distance of a kilometer deep into the strip, without being criminalized as terrorist infrastructure, neither by intelligence nor by soldiers in the field - with the aim of creating a security strip that does not exist A living soul, contrary to international law.
According to the testimonies of reservists who came to the hottest place, the army divided the border area from the sea in the north, near Zikim Beach, to the Egyptian border in the south - into segments, polygons. Each section is a few hundred meters long and a kilometer wide. In each polygon, the goal is to bring about the destruction of one hundred percent of the buildings, from greenhouses to houses, regardless of whether or not there was terrorist activity in them. The army keeps a record of how many buildings were destroyed in each section.
According to sources in the army, an average of 10.5 mines are required to detonate one building, about 150 kg of explosives, compared to 1-2 tons of explosives in aerial armament. The same sources report that the ground armament indicates a high level of professionalism of the forces in using sabotage and emphasized the economic savings .
posted by cendawanita at 9:07 AM on January 24 [4 favorites]
"hard-won livable space" is such a vile way of describing how Israel took that land.
Hard-won Lebensraum indeed.
posted by jedicus at 9:49 AM on January 24 [6 favorites]
Hard-won Lebensraum indeed.
posted by jedicus at 9:49 AM on January 24 [6 favorites]
Wow Israeli intelligence is also Hamas:
(In Hebrew) machine translation:
The army checked and found that the reports of the dead in the Ministry of Health in Gaza are reliable
Sources in the intelligence told "Tasha Khomey" that the army followed senior officials in the Ministry of Health in Gaza and concluded that their reports about the dead were reliable. The data is used by the army in assessing the situation regarding Gaza. For the information of President Biden
By: Yuval Avraham
24.1.2024
He also summarised on twitter:
Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.
The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.
According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.
One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.
'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'
@mekomit @972mag
At this point, "Hamas" can aim, can build tunnels, can paraglide, can influence South Africa, can do maths....
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
(In Hebrew) machine translation:
The army checked and found that the reports of the dead in the Ministry of Health in Gaza are reliable
Sources in the intelligence told "Tasha Khomey" that the army followed senior officials in the Ministry of Health in Gaza and concluded that their reports about the dead were reliable. The data is used by the army in assessing the situation regarding Gaza. For the information of President Biden
By: Yuval Avraham
24.1.2024
He also summarised on twitter:
Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us.
The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings.
According to two sources, Israeli intelligence has no good independent measure of the total number of civilians the army killed in Gaza, making the Health Ministry's data their main source of information.
One reason for this is that officers conducted hundreds of AI-directed assassination strikes against suspected low-level Hamas operatives, usually by destroying entire homes and killing entire families – a practice we previously termed a 'mass assassination factory’. There was often no bomb damage assessment (BDA) for these strikes, meaning there was no check on who and how many civilians were killed. This routine post-strike check was skipped to 'save time'.
'I don’t know how many people I killed as collateral damage. We only check that information for senior Hamas targets,' one source said. 'In other cases I didn’t care. I immediately moved on to the next target. The focus was on creating as many targets as quickly as possible. That’s why I trust the Health Ministry in Gaza more than the IDF for these statistics. The army just doesn’t have the information.'
@mekomit @972mag
At this point, "Hamas" can aim, can build tunnels, can paraglide, can influence South Africa, can do maths....
posted by cendawanita at 10:05 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
"good at killing, bad at counting" probably doesn't hit the same way as "the most moral army in the world" tho.
posted by cendawanita at 10:10 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:10 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
(disclaimer needed on the "good at killing" claim as well, tbh)
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
Israeli settlers dug small graves (the size of children) in front of a school for a Palestinian Bedouin community in Jericho in the West Bank this morning, as a threatening message to the community.(Tweet has an image of the graves)
Quds News Network, on Twitter (Nitter link)
posted by adrienneleigh at 12:51 PM on January 24
This thread is going to close soon during this week if I have my calculations correct + ICJ just announced that it will deliver its ruling on the provisional measures requested by South Africa this Friday (1pm CET) which is blazing fast if I understand correctly, so I think I'll prep for the new thread to coincide with that.
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:18 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
Israeli Sniper Shoots Dead Unarmed Palestinian With White Flag (Novara Media, Piped/YouTube, 17m52s)
posted by flabdablet at 7:30 PM on January 24 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 7:30 PM on January 24 [3 favorites]
The live stream for the ICJ session announcing the order will be at this url when it happens. The stream is listed to go live at 6:30am EST, but they usually start the stream 30m early, so that matches the 1pm CET cendawanita pointed out above. See you all in the new thread.
posted by bcd at 6:00 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 6:00 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
UK Guardian: More than one-third of Americans believe Israel is committing genocide, poll shows
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:10 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:10 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
Alex de Waal on famine in Gaza:
What's different about the Gaza case is the speed and the comprehensiveness of that destruction. We have not seen a population reduced from a situation of stress – because Gaza was never a normal food security situation – to an acute extreme emergency on this scale in a matter of months. It usually takes much longer to happen.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:44 AM on January 25 [4 favorites]
...
We can go back to cases like the Biafra war, which killed large numbers of people. And indeed, historic famines have killed many more people, but that's because they affected very large populations, whereas the population of Gaza is only 2.2 million. We really have to go back to World War II to see comparable cases in terms of the speed, scale, and determination with which the siege is being enforced and objects indispensable to survival are being destroyed.
Professors Slam Columbia's Response to Chemical Skunk Attack on Students at Pro-Palestine Protest (Democracy Now!, Piped/YouTube, 15m52s)
posted by flabdablet at 9:44 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 9:44 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
The Idea of the Nation-State Is Synonymous With Genocide
A conversation with political theorist Mahmood Mamdani on the inherent violence at the heart of a nation-building project, the war in Gaza, and the changing meaning of homeland. (The Nation, 2500 words)
posted by flabdablet at 10:25 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
A conversation with political theorist Mahmood Mamdani on the inherent violence at the heart of a nation-building project, the war in Gaza, and the changing meaning of homeland. (The Nation, 2500 words)
posted by flabdablet at 10:25 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
WSJ gift link about Israel realizing its plans for a 1km-wide "buffer" inside the recognized borders of Gaza, despite the US's verbal objections to the idea (at places the Gaza strip is just 6km wide); the US has not suggested any actual consequences for Netanyahu ignoring its wishes:
Israel Builds Buffer Zone Along Gaza Border, Risking New Rift With U.S.
Soldiers have been creating a no man’s land just inside the enclave
Their orders were to clear a 1-kilometer-wide area along the border, the soldier said, as part of an Israeli plan to construct a security zone just inside Gaza—to which Palestinians would be barred entry. With bulldozers and other heavy equipment, they leveled greenhouses and other structures, filled Hamas militants’ tunnel shafts and plowed under farm fields.
“Everything has been flattened,” the soldier said. “It was mostly agriculture. Now it’s a military zone, a complete no man’s land.”
...Shaul Arieli, a former Israeli colonel who served in Israel’s Gaza division and is now an expert on Israeli borders, said the creation of a permanent buffer zone inside Gaza likely would be illegal under international law because Israel would be assuming control of land beyond its recognized territory and, as an occupying power, would be prohibited from altering boundaries.
posted by mediareport at 10:37 AM on January 25 [4 favorites]
Israel Builds Buffer Zone Along Gaza Border, Risking New Rift With U.S.
Soldiers have been creating a no man’s land just inside the enclave
Their orders were to clear a 1-kilometer-wide area along the border, the soldier said, as part of an Israeli plan to construct a security zone just inside Gaza—to which Palestinians would be barred entry. With bulldozers and other heavy equipment, they leveled greenhouses and other structures, filled Hamas militants’ tunnel shafts and plowed under farm fields.
“Everything has been flattened,” the soldier said. “It was mostly agriculture. Now it’s a military zone, a complete no man’s land.”
...Shaul Arieli, a former Israeli colonel who served in Israel’s Gaza division and is now an expert on Israeli borders, said the creation of a permanent buffer zone inside Gaza likely would be illegal under international law because Israel would be assuming control of land beyond its recognized territory and, as an occupying power, would be prohibited from altering boundaries.
posted by mediareport at 10:37 AM on January 25 [4 favorites]
"hard-won livable space" is such a vile way of describing how Israel took that land.
Yeah, I'd hope that was sloppiness in not more clearly attributing the "hard-won" sentiment to the Israelis along the border, but given the 6:1 ratio in that article of quotes from Israelis to the quote from an elderly woman who's refusing to leave a town on the Lebanon side, those hopes aren't high.
posted by mediareport at 10:42 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I'd hope that was sloppiness in not more clearly attributing the "hard-won" sentiment to the Israelis along the border, but given the 6:1 ratio in that article of quotes from Israelis to the quote from an elderly woman who's refusing to leave a town on the Lebanon side, those hopes aren't high.
posted by mediareport at 10:42 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]
...Shaul Arieli, a former Israeli colonel who served in Israel’s Gaza division and is now an expert on Israeli borders, said the creation of a permanent buffer zone inside Gaza likely would be illegal under international law because Israel would be assuming control of land beyond its recognized territory and, as an occupying power, would be prohibited from altering boundaries.
Imagine that the Jeremy Clarkson "Oh no! Anyway..." gif was here.
posted by delfin at 1:40 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]
Imagine that the Jeremy Clarkson "Oh no! Anyway..." gif was here.
posted by delfin at 1:40 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]
Israeli protestors block aid trucks going to Gaza.
Per another commenter, the protestors gave an interview, they blocked 41 out of fifty trucks yesterday and all trucks today and plan to continue indefinitely. So what is the endgame here? There is literally nothing going into Gaza and literally everyone starves to death in the next two months? That's what the endgame sounds like now.
posted by Frowner at 2:44 PM on January 25 [13 favorites]
Per another commenter, the protestors gave an interview, they blocked 41 out of fifty trucks yesterday and all trucks today and plan to continue indefinitely. So what is the endgame here? There is literally nothing going into Gaza and literally everyone starves to death in the next two months? That's what the endgame sounds like now.
posted by Frowner at 2:44 PM on January 25 [13 favorites]
New thread here - *sprinkles some zaatar over warm bread with a bit of olive oil*
posted by cendawanita at 12:57 AM on January 26 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:57 AM on January 26 [6 favorites]
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posted by infini at 9:04 AM on December 27, 2023 [9 favorites]