"Gaza is Being Strangled"
October 28, 2023 8:56 AM Subscribe
Gaza Is Being Strangled”: U.N. Says Israel’s Siege Will Lead to More Palestinian Deaths The United Nations has warned that many more Palestinians will die due to catastrophic shortages of food, water and medicine, as Israel’s nonstop bombardment of the Gaza Strip entered its 21st day.
"What UNRWA is calling for, the U.N. agency for Palestine refugees, is an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and a continuous, unimpeded and safe flow of aid. Eight trucks a day — today, 12 yesterday, 20 the day before — can these really be sufficient for a population of 2.2 million people, all stranded under complete seal? For context, before this crisis — and even then, nothing was normal — 500 trucks used to come into the Gaza Strip from Erez, from Israel, and from Rafah, from Egypt. A hundred of these trucks contained humanitarian and food assistance, because already before this conflict, 70% of people in Gaza relied on food assistance from the U.N. and lived under the poverty line."
"What UNRWA is calling for, the U.N. agency for Palestine refugees, is an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and a continuous, unimpeded and safe flow of aid. Eight trucks a day — today, 12 yesterday, 20 the day before — can these really be sufficient for a population of 2.2 million people, all stranded under complete seal? For context, before this crisis — and even then, nothing was normal — 500 trucks used to come into the Gaza Strip from Erez, from Israel, and from Rafah, from Egypt. A hundred of these trucks contained humanitarian and food assistance, because already before this conflict, 70% of people in Gaza relied on food assistance from the U.N. and lived under the poverty line."
Yes, and as a U.S. citizen, I condemn the U.S. government for aiding and abetting in it.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 9:07 AM on October 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 9:07 AM on October 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
As a Jewish American, this issue causes a lot of very complex, personal, and deeply important feelings in me. There are many things I would say on the subject, but I’m pretty sure that Metafilter has policies on this subject.
I’ll let the moderators pop in here and clarify.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
I’ll let the moderators pop in here and clarify.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Previously, lots of additional links and discussion in there for context.
The person who created that post quit Metafilter because of the discussion that resulted.
posted by clawsoon at 9:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
The person who created that post quit Metafilter because of the discussion that resulted.
posted by clawsoon at 9:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet? Have they attempted to give one?
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Probably the same rationale as cutting water, food, and medicine.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:02 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:02 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Disgusted that Canada abstained from the UN vote on a resolution for protection of civilians and upholding legal and humanitarian obligations. The USA voted against. Yay war crimes!
It’s been said that physical mail carries more weight than electronic means.
Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament at the following address:
[Name of Member of Parliament]
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6
e.g.
Justin Trudeau
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6
posted by rodlymight at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
It’s been said that physical mail carries more weight than electronic means.
Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament at the following address:
[Name of Member of Parliament]
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6
e.g.
Justin Trudeau
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6
posted by rodlymight at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Is there anything, ANYTHING at all that an average American citizen can do to help the Palestinian people, either in calling for a ceasefire or in some other way? I have never felt more powerless, more bereft of political representation in my life.
Especially as a new parent, to see and hear what is being done to the children of Gaza... it's nothing compared to what Palestinian civilians are going through right now, but I still feel this inescapable weight.
I spend a lot of time on Reddit (I know), and reading the top comments to any post about Israel's bombardment of Gaza, seeing the deluge of disregard and blame for people getting shelled even as they are forced to unlawfully evacuate their homes, just casts a pall over my soul.
posted by miltthetank at 10:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Especially as a new parent, to see and hear what is being done to the children of Gaza... it's nothing compared to what Palestinian civilians are going through right now, but I still feel this inescapable weight.
I spend a lot of time on Reddit (I know), and reading the top comments to any post about Israel's bombardment of Gaza, seeing the deluge of disregard and blame for people getting shelled even as they are forced to unlawfully evacuate their homes, just casts a pall over my soul.
posted by miltthetank at 10:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet?
Israel's plan is to go in and kill everyone in Hamas, maybe 30 or 40 thousand, as efficiently as possible. They want the first local clue that they're coming to be the sound of helicopters, not the tone of a WhatsApp message coming from a cousin watching preparations far away.
posted by pracowity at 10:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Israel's plan is to go in and kill everyone in Hamas, maybe 30 or 40 thousand, as efficiently as possible. They want the first local clue that they're coming to be the sound of helicopters, not the tone of a WhatsApp message coming from a cousin watching preparations far away.
posted by pracowity at 10:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet?
Not sure what their stated rationale is, but I'm pretty sure that the average Israeli is terrified of their friends and loved ones getting raped, decapitated, gunned down, or abducted from their homes.
Since this wretched thread is still here, I'll just say that I am also terrified of what Israel's next steps will be, and hope that somehow they'll see the moral as well as mortal dangers before they go even further than they already have.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Not sure what their stated rationale is, but I'm pretty sure that the average Israeli is terrified of their friends and loved ones getting raped, decapitated, gunned down, or abducted from their homes.
Since this wretched thread is still here, I'll just say that I am also terrified of what Israel's next steps will be, and hope that somehow they'll see the moral as well as mortal dangers before they go even further than they already have.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
I realize that they could argue that there is no such thing as neutral supplies, but some basic human necessities are close enough.
I realize that there are those who don't give a damn. Still . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I realize that they could argue that there is no such thing as neutral supplies, but some basic human necessities are close enough.
I realize that there are those who don't give a damn. Still . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Knocking out the other side's communications is a pretty normal thing to do in the opening stages of regional ground attack, in a vacuum. The problem is conducting that kind of attack on a place like Gaza in the first place.
Human Rights Watch on the Iraq War:
Preplanned targets included leadership, government, security, and military facilities, and certain dual-use infrastructure elements (such as electrical power, media, and telecommunications facilities).
Attacks on these facilities generally did not result in civilian casualties or extensive damage to civilian property for a number of reasons. U.S. strategy avoided power plants, public water facilities, refineries, bridges, and other civilian structures. Most of the facilities that were hit were in areas to which the civilian population did not have access. Thorough collateral damage estimates were done for each of the preplanned targets. Finally, these attacks were carried out exclusively with precision-guided munitions.
...
Human Rights Watch believes that extreme caution should be used in the targeting of electrical power facilities because of the potential profound and long-term impact on civilian populations. The loss of electrical power in the first Gulf War, for example, crippled basic civilian services, including hospital-based medical care, and shut down water distribution, water purification, and sewage treatment plants. This led to death and suffering, especially among the most vulnerable members of the population.
In particular, Human Rights Watch believes that civilian electrical generation (production) facilities should not be attacked because replacement is costly and time-consuming, thereby causing prolonged human suffering. As seen in Yugoslavia, attacks on electrical distribution facilities can have a lesser impact. If distribution facilities are attacked, it should be done in such as way as to cause only temporarily incapacitation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:50 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Human Rights Watch on the Iraq War:
Preplanned targets included leadership, government, security, and military facilities, and certain dual-use infrastructure elements (such as electrical power, media, and telecommunications facilities).
Attacks on these facilities generally did not result in civilian casualties or extensive damage to civilian property for a number of reasons. U.S. strategy avoided power plants, public water facilities, refineries, bridges, and other civilian structures. Most of the facilities that were hit were in areas to which the civilian population did not have access. Thorough collateral damage estimates were done for each of the preplanned targets. Finally, these attacks were carried out exclusively with precision-guided munitions.
...
Human Rights Watch believes that extreme caution should be used in the targeting of electrical power facilities because of the potential profound and long-term impact on civilian populations. The loss of electrical power in the first Gulf War, for example, crippled basic civilian services, including hospital-based medical care, and shut down water distribution, water purification, and sewage treatment plants. This led to death and suffering, especially among the most vulnerable members of the population.
In particular, Human Rights Watch believes that civilian electrical generation (production) facilities should not be attacked because replacement is costly and time-consuming, thereby causing prolonged human suffering. As seen in Yugoslavia, attacks on electrical distribution facilities can have a lesser impact. If distribution facilities are attacked, it should be done in such as way as to cause only temporarily incapacitation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:50 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
dances_with_sneetches: I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
Probably House Resolution 771, Standing with Israel as it defends itself against the barbaric war launched by Hamas and other terrorists, cosponsored by 425 representatives, passed 412-10.
posted by clawsoon at 10:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Probably House Resolution 771, Standing with Israel as it defends itself against the barbaric war launched by Hamas and other terrorists, cosponsored by 425 representatives, passed 412-10.
posted by clawsoon at 10:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
If we could not have this become a play by play of military action, that would be helpful.
The purpose of this thread is to highlight the ongoing bombardment of Palestine and that it has not stopped since October 7/8. In which case, with protests all over the world right now, one wonders, when will Israel ceasefire?
I have a MetaTalk in queue that had better framing around a purpose but as it has not been approved, I posted something to be on the front page. The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The purpose of this thread is to highlight the ongoing bombardment of Palestine and that it has not stopped since October 7/8. In which case, with protests all over the world right now, one wonders, when will Israel ceasefire?
I have a MetaTalk in queue that had better framing around a purpose but as it has not been approved, I posted something to be on the front page. The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
genocide
posted by kensington314 at 11:04 AM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 11:04 AM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
AnyUsernameWillDo: The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
Expecting that an Israel-Palestine thread will provide what anyone feels is needed is... optimistic? :-)
(Perhaps ironically, the most reliable way to do that would be to completely lock one side or the other out of the discussion.)
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Expecting that an Israel-Palestine thread will provide what anyone feels is needed is... optimistic? :-)
(Perhaps ironically, the most reliable way to do that would be to completely lock one side or the other out of the discussion.)
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Games for Gaza - get 140 video games by indie creators, donate to Medical Aid For Palestinians. They're getting close to their $150k goal.
I went to shul today for the first time ever (not just because of this, I also had a close family bereavement this morning and Needed To Do Something, but I also feel like we're all in a place of Needing To Do Something). Our rabbi spoke about grief, the desire for peace and unity, and the need to recognise each other as human beings. I hope similar sermons are being given in many places today. Shabbat shalom, everyone.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
I went to shul today for the first time ever (not just because of this, I also had a close family bereavement this morning and Needed To Do Something, but I also feel like we're all in a place of Needing To Do Something). Our rabbi spoke about grief, the desire for peace and unity, and the need to recognise each other as human beings. I hope similar sermons are being given in many places today. Shabbat shalom, everyone.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
It's a genocide, and contrasting it with the response to Russia invading Ukraine only makes me feel even more nauseous — if such a thing is even possible.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Israel looks like they'll pass a law allowing the cops to use live ammunition against Israeli protestors. (They already shoot down protesters in Gaza and the West Bank.) That tells you what you need to know about how the Israeli state is operating - they'll kill their own people if they have to in order to pursue their aims.
This is sheer opportunism. In the first days, when average Israelis were most afraid and angry, it was easy enough to bomb and starve Gaza without questions being raised. Now, when people are starting to understand that this is ethnic cleansing, anyone who doesn't want to bomb hospitals and kill babies in their incubators can be shot or terrified into silence.
It's opportunism in the sense that it is taking a wave of fear and outrage as an excuse to begin the annihilation of Palestine and it is opportunism in the sense that it is a way to pass laws against dissent that can be used to prop up Netanyahu and his cronies. There has always been an attempt to propagandize ordinary Israelis into ardent support for the oppression of Palestinians, but there are plenty of people who don't go along with that - whether they are radicals or just don't believe that the Palestinian situation should be solved with a gun. Now there's a chance to shut those people up for good, and the hope that in ten years, when the Palestinians are dead or scattered, everyone will be glad to forget.
US tax dollars prop up a lot of evil around the world and I may not be able to stop it, but they can't make me like it or forget about it.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [67 favorites]
This is sheer opportunism. In the first days, when average Israelis were most afraid and angry, it was easy enough to bomb and starve Gaza without questions being raised. Now, when people are starting to understand that this is ethnic cleansing, anyone who doesn't want to bomb hospitals and kill babies in their incubators can be shot or terrified into silence.
It's opportunism in the sense that it is taking a wave of fear and outrage as an excuse to begin the annihilation of Palestine and it is opportunism in the sense that it is a way to pass laws against dissent that can be used to prop up Netanyahu and his cronies. There has always been an attempt to propagandize ordinary Israelis into ardent support for the oppression of Palestinians, but there are plenty of people who don't go along with that - whether they are radicals or just don't believe that the Palestinian situation should be solved with a gun. Now there's a chance to shut those people up for good, and the hope that in ten years, when the Palestinians are dead or scattered, everyone will be glad to forget.
US tax dollars prop up a lot of evil around the world and I may not be able to stop it, but they can't make me like it or forget about it.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [67 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
The US supplies and pays for the bombs and the planes to drop them on Gaza. If the US wasn't broadly supportive of the outcomes in Gaza, they have quite a lot of leverage to force Israel to change. Despite some weak public statements, there is little reason to believe the US does not broadly support the Israeli strategy, which includes a siege that prevents food, water, fuel and medical supplies from reaching Gaza.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
The US supplies and pays for the bombs and the planes to drop them on Gaza. If the US wasn't broadly supportive of the outcomes in Gaza, they have quite a lot of leverage to force Israel to change. Despite some weak public statements, there is little reason to believe the US does not broadly support the Israeli strategy, which includes a siege that prevents food, water, fuel and medical supplies from reaching Gaza.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I was going to post a link here, but I won't but just say, apparently there is a protest in Tel Aviv today. And then there have been protests in Israel by families of hostages who are being held by Hamas. One posted today said that hostages families have heard nothing at all about any communication or plan to get their loved ones home safely. This is not good for them. Not good for Palestinians.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
The only thing that made the former, now unwieldy, thread usable was the folks who posted links to smart analysis and on-the-ground information, rather than venting their own angry opinions all over the place. It would be great if that happened here, but, yeah, I don't have much hope.
Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
posted by mediareport at 11:20 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
posted by mediareport at 11:20 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
mediareport: Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
That is surely part of the reason for Israel attempting to impose a communications blackout.
posted by clawsoon at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
That is surely part of the reason for Israel attempting to impose a communications blackout.
posted by clawsoon at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Yes, I hope that, we can remember in each other our shared humanity. And the humanity in every person in Gaza. Every person in Israel who was killed by Hamas. Every person grieving for their family members killed or taken hostage. I think and hope we can at least agree on that.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
The only thing that made the former, now unwieldy, thread usable was the folks who posted links to smart analysis and on-the-ground information, rather than venting their own angry opinions all over the place. It would be great if that happened here, but, yeah, I don't have much hope.
Heartily agree and embarrassed to say I didn't help the dynamic. I'll try to do better. The linked info that clawsoon, mediareport, and others brought by that thread was helpful and informative. The emotional processing of watching thousands of innocents be killed and maimed by a US proxy is maybe inevitable for some of us, but again I'll try to do better in my contributions here.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Heartily agree and embarrassed to say I didn't help the dynamic. I'll try to do better. The linked info that clawsoon, mediareport, and others brought by that thread was helpful and informative. The emotional processing of watching thousands of innocents be killed and maimed by a US proxy is maybe inevitable for some of us, but again I'll try to do better in my contributions here.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, again, I posted a metatalk and it hasn't been approved yet. As far as keeping this more about links to news sources vs. angry opinions. I don't want to debate anything here. More so hold space for people to share in this horror. Because as fight or flight mentions above and a few others, we all want to do something but feel powerless to do so. In the least we can not let it go unnoticed.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:29 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:29 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seriously, fellow Mefites: start at the bottom of the old thread and prioritize comments with links in them as you scroll up. Do that for 45 minutes before jumping in here and you'll Help The Community.
posted by mediareport at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Protests are ongoing in London, NYC, etc ... and there are organizing spaces on Zoom to join...
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023
Jewish Voice for Peace forced Grand Central Station to close yesterday as hundreds of protesters, including rabbis, were arrested as they tried to stop the bombing.
posted by mediareport at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Missed the edit window but my post above should have read "innocents," not "incidents." Damn you autocarrot etc etc
posted by kensington314 at 11:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 11:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm with you mediareport, I want more filter, and much less meta.
I am glad NZ voted for the resolution, but in three weeks will probably reverse that as idiots here have voted in a bunch of christian fundamentalists, they are carbon copies of the new US House Speaker.
posted by unearthed at 11:51 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am glad NZ voted for the resolution, but in three weeks will probably reverse that as idiots here have voted in a bunch of christian fundamentalists, they are carbon copies of the new US House Speaker.
posted by unearthed at 11:51 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is there anything, ANYTHING at all that an average American citizen can do to help the Palestinian people, either in calling for a ceasefire or in some other way? I have never felt more powerless, more bereft of political representation in my life.
Here is a link to a page from Jewish Voice for Peace that will allow you to call your two senators and your house rep to demand a ceasefire. They have done a lot to make this very easy. You put in your information and will be called by a service that will redirect you to each phone line just by hitting the star key on your phone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a staffer, you can call at night and leave a message (I did this around 9 PM EST last night). There are scripts on the page to help. If your house rep has already supported the ceasefire resolution, there is a script to thank them as well. It may not feel like much, but it's something you directly can do to make your voice heard.
posted by JimBennett at 11:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Here is a link to a page from Jewish Voice for Peace that will allow you to call your two senators and your house rep to demand a ceasefire. They have done a lot to make this very easy. You put in your information and will be called by a service that will redirect you to each phone line just by hitting the star key on your phone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a staffer, you can call at night and leave a message (I did this around 9 PM EST last night). There are scripts on the page to help. If your house rep has already supported the ceasefire resolution, there is a script to thank them as well. It may not feel like much, but it's something you directly can do to make your voice heard.
posted by JimBennett at 11:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
This all makes me very, very sad. No other geopolitical event in recent memory has made me as sad as this has.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:03 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:03 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Let's practice flagging things up if something is bothersome/against guidelines rather than calling out users in comments. Also, please remember to ask us mods to come in and moderate something if it's going south, and refrain from self moderating or thread sitting. Also, one typo corrected, "incident" is now "innocents".
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, if there needs to be further moderation in a thread and we may have missed something, flag it up or send us a message via email. I've removed two additional comments that were not helpful to the thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Letters from Gaza
Protean Magazine has been publishing such recent communication as is available from ordinary Palestinians.
My heart aches for my apartment, which I built brick by brick with my own hands. I painstakingly selected each material, each tile, treating them as companions that would accompany me through life. I carried the packages of tiles with tenderness, just as I carried my firstborn child in his cradle. The joy I felt as each tile was laid and dried was immeasurable. I even distributed sweets around Gaza when I completed the row of tiles!
Yet, the pilot decided to unleash their hatred upon my cherished tiles, dimming their brightness that I loved so deeply.
I copied in this one because I also feel very strongly attached to the physical quality of my home and things like my plates and cups and I've often thought about how I would miss their qualities terribly if I lost them. The destruction of places and things gets overlooked if the people survive but the destruction of the place is part of the destruction of the people.
posted by Frowner at 12:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Protean Magazine has been publishing such recent communication as is available from ordinary Palestinians.
My heart aches for my apartment, which I built brick by brick with my own hands. I painstakingly selected each material, each tile, treating them as companions that would accompany me through life. I carried the packages of tiles with tenderness, just as I carried my firstborn child in his cradle. The joy I felt as each tile was laid and dried was immeasurable. I even distributed sweets around Gaza when I completed the row of tiles!
Yet, the pilot decided to unleash their hatred upon my cherished tiles, dimming their brightness that I loved so deeply.
I copied in this one because I also feel very strongly attached to the physical quality of my home and things like my plates and cups and I've often thought about how I would miss their qualities terribly if I lost them. The destruction of places and things gets overlooked if the people survive but the destruction of the place is part of the destruction of the people.
posted by Frowner at 12:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Times of Israel: Cabinet said slated to okay police use of live fire against protesters blocking roads during multi-front war
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:58 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:58 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Dear Metafilter administrators. I don't understand why you don't delete this hate speech. I am ashamed to be a member of this community as long as this post is not being shut down.How is this post "hate speech"?
posted by Flunkie at 1:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [28 favorites]
I mean, feel free to remotely rebut those statements, rather than calling it hate speech? Sure sounds accurate to me.
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't call it "hate speech" by any means, but it it is a deliberately one-sided post for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing? Genocide? Shame on you, you prog elitists useful idiotsI guess I tend to think that while there's a lot of shame to go around, it's better directed towards those who cut off the water supply to millions of people than to those who use words that you think are too harsh when describing cutting off the water supply to millions of people.
posted by Flunkie at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [41 favorites]
As far as the situation in Palestine is concerned, I don't see what other side there could be. Maybe the civilians deserve it? Maybe there's not actually a blockade?
posted by sagc at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Alright, let’s hold off on getting into a back and forth debate with each other please in this thread
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Svara, a Queer-focused 'traditionally radical yeshiva', created a Talmud-style page as a response to the situation.
We're hearing a (mostly accurate) narrative in the American Jewish community of steadfast solidarity with Israel, but I think Svara has done a good job with explaining some of the nuance in the hearts of many of us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:25 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
We're hearing a (mostly accurate) narrative in the American Jewish community of steadfast solidarity with Israel, but I think Svara has done a good job with explaining some of the nuance in the hearts of many of us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:25 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
posted by kickingtheground at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hamas can get fucked for war crimes, too.
posted by lalochezia at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
I don't think this has been widely announced, given what a minefield the topic is, but the Canadian Government is matching donations made to the Humanitarian Coalition for Gaza, up to a total $10 million for donations made between October 7 and November 12.
posted by urbanlenny at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by urbanlenny at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I posted this in the other thread but I feel like folks could in addition to news and analysis links may appreciate links to art and poetry. So here’s prologue for now - gaza.
posted by R343L at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by R343L at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
'Not in Our Name': The Jews Who Refuse to Be Bystanders to Historic Injustice.
Close on the heels of what is being seen as 'the largest Jewish protest in solidarity with Palestinians in US history,' the group Jewish Voice for Peace are keen to break the cycle that ethnic atrocities follow.
'Not in my name’: The European Jews condemning Israel’s war on Gaza.
From Glasgow to London to Barcelona, many Jewish protesters take on abuse to join pro-Palestinian rallies.
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Close on the heels of what is being seen as 'the largest Jewish protest in solidarity with Palestinians in US history,' the group Jewish Voice for Peace are keen to break the cycle that ethnic atrocities follow.
'Not in my name’: The European Jews condemning Israel’s war on Gaza.
From Glasgow to London to Barcelona, many Jewish protesters take on abuse to join pro-Palestinian rallies.
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
There is a very large divide on this topic. This is one of the most enduring conflicts of the modern era. The history is complex and it is easy to make judgements from afar that lack the context of individual Palestinians and Israelis. There are also many leaders among Israelis and Palestinians that have a record of bad faith dealings. Among them is of course current Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu and his counterpart Ismail Haniyeh the leader of Hamas.
The response to the events of October 7th by Israel was to use the IDF to destroy Hamas and evict them from Gaza. They will argue this as their right to defend their country from ongoing rocket attacks and the violent cross border attacks. They will also argue that they are showing the necessary precautions for limitations on civilian casualties under the laws of war. The official position of the US is that Israel should do more to protect civilians, but that they are largely complying with the rules of war. I'm not endorsing this position, I'm merely attempting to outline it for the purposes of discussion. I am not minimizing the conflict, I'm merely attempting to describe it accurately. The knob that adjusts my response to the level of this nightmare has long since gone to its maximum level.
Even if Israel was behaving perfectly, so long as they are pursing a military solution then there will be civilian casualties and deaths in Gaza. If that is the policy you think is necessary then you should brace yourself because it will be a lot worse. If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country then your choices are limited in how you will respond if you want to survive. One question I struggle with is what are the alternatives. Many Israeli's I've talked to seem to be feeling the same way. They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
I don't know how to solve a problem like Hamas. I'm undecided on the necessity or wisdom of using military force as part of the solution. I have zero confidence in Netanyahu as the real decision maker here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The response to the events of October 7th by Israel was to use the IDF to destroy Hamas and evict them from Gaza. They will argue this as their right to defend their country from ongoing rocket attacks and the violent cross border attacks. They will also argue that they are showing the necessary precautions for limitations on civilian casualties under the laws of war. The official position of the US is that Israel should do more to protect civilians, but that they are largely complying with the rules of war. I'm not endorsing this position, I'm merely attempting to outline it for the purposes of discussion. I am not minimizing the conflict, I'm merely attempting to describe it accurately. The knob that adjusts my response to the level of this nightmare has long since gone to its maximum level.
Even if Israel was behaving perfectly, so long as they are pursing a military solution then there will be civilian casualties and deaths in Gaza. If that is the policy you think is necessary then you should brace yourself because it will be a lot worse. If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country then your choices are limited in how you will respond if you want to survive. One question I struggle with is what are the alternatives. Many Israeli's I've talked to seem to be feeling the same way. They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
I don't know how to solve a problem like Hamas. I'm undecided on the necessity or wisdom of using military force as part of the solution. I have zero confidence in Netanyahu as the real decision maker here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
kickingtheground: Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
It reminds me of the not-very-chivalrous rule of chivalry that kicking "useless mouths" out of a besieged city into the horror of no-man's-land was perfectly fine if it allowed the soldiers inside to live longer.
People who depend on violence for their power suck.
posted by clawsoon at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It reminds me of the not-very-chivalrous rule of chivalry that kicking "useless mouths" out of a besieged city into the horror of no-man's-land was perfectly fine if it allowed the soldiers inside to live longer.
People who depend on violence for their power suck.
posted by clawsoon at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
My heart is so heavy, but in some ways, these events have engendered in me a sick kind of clarity: This is war now. It's no longer (to a western observer, because, in truth, it never was) an academic exercise. And if you stand with the state of Israel and those who support their actions materially or ideologically, you are not only MY enemy, but an enemy of humanity. I will never say that what Hamas has done is okay, but I also could understand almost any kind of retaliation short of unabated slaughter. Israel occupies and controls Gaza. Whether in a storm of lead and fire or over the course of centuries with laws, settlers, and construction, this was clearly always the endgame.
posted by Krazor at 2:35 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by Krazor at 2:35 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
interogative mood: If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country... They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
This is where it feels for me like there's a large gap where two very different outcomes are being pulled together as if they are the same: if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I doubt that I'll agree with whatever the reasoning is, but I am trying to understand and ask in good faith.
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is where it feels for me like there's a large gap where two very different outcomes are being pulled together as if they are the same: if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I doubt that I'll agree with whatever the reasoning is, but I am trying to understand and ask in good faith.
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
is "fuck netanyahu" a sentiment we can all agree on? because if so, fuck netanyahu. and if not, fuck netanyahu.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:45 PM on October 28, 2023 [58 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:45 PM on October 28, 2023 [58 favorites]
I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot/fish in a barrell.
Really this whole situation is Israel's fault, they've had 2-3 generations to fix their original mistake, and have instead made it worse decade by decade, Israel has the power here, the money, the resources to put things right, but has not been able to garner the internal political will, instead we've seen decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on October 28, 2023 [33 favorites]
Really this whole situation is Israel's fault, they've had 2-3 generations to fix their original mistake, and have instead made it worse decade by decade, Israel has the power here, the money, the resources to put things right, but has not been able to garner the internal political will, instead we've seen decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on October 28, 2023 [33 favorites]
decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
Decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
Decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
> I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot/fish in a barrell.
feels like "sack" is the right word. is it a sack? is the idf sacking gaza?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
feels like "sack" is the right word. is it a sack? is the idf sacking gaza?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
mbo: I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot.
Much better said, thank you.
posted by Krazor at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Much better said, thank you.
posted by Krazor at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Turkey is a NATO member. This brings complications to the Alliance.
Turkey’s Erdogan tells pro-Palestinian rally Israel is ‘an occupier’
Addressing hundreds of thousands of supporters, Erdogan accuses the West of being the main culprit in the war on Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 3:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Turkey’s Erdogan tells pro-Palestinian rally Israel is ‘an occupier’
Addressing hundreds of thousands of supporters, Erdogan accuses the West of being the main culprit in the war on Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 3:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I'll take a stab at this one. One of the big ways that Israel has survived the last 80 years is through a myth of its, if not invulnerability, at least greatly superior power as compared to its neighbors. It survived multiple wars where it was invaded by a bunch of countries at the same time on a bunch of fronts simultaneously. Historically, it has been surrounded on all sides by enemies that outnumber it by a factor of 20x or more. So the way it has in the past gotten by is by the propagation of that myth where if you challenge them you'll lose, lose badly, and pay an outsize price for the attempt.
Anything which Hamas can plausibly claim as a victory is a knife in the heart of that myth. If Israel can "lose" to Hamas, if Hamas can get away with arguably the worst terror attack in modern history (9/11 being the other) without being destroyed, then other countries surrounding Israel might start to get the idea that maybe things have changed and Israel will start to look mighty vulnerable.
I believe that's likely what Israeli leadership thinks. History provides them with plausible reasons to believe that. There are also reasons to think it's not true that a so-called Hamas "victory" would mean any of that so you don't have to convince me! But I think that's probably a reasonable approximation of the thinking going on.
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
I'll take a stab at this one. One of the big ways that Israel has survived the last 80 years is through a myth of its, if not invulnerability, at least greatly superior power as compared to its neighbors. It survived multiple wars where it was invaded by a bunch of countries at the same time on a bunch of fronts simultaneously. Historically, it has been surrounded on all sides by enemies that outnumber it by a factor of 20x or more. So the way it has in the past gotten by is by the propagation of that myth where if you challenge them you'll lose, lose badly, and pay an outsize price for the attempt.
Anything which Hamas can plausibly claim as a victory is a knife in the heart of that myth. If Israel can "lose" to Hamas, if Hamas can get away with arguably the worst terror attack in modern history (9/11 being the other) without being destroyed, then other countries surrounding Israel might start to get the idea that maybe things have changed and Israel will start to look mighty vulnerable.
I believe that's likely what Israeli leadership thinks. History provides them with plausible reasons to believe that. There are also reasons to think it's not true that a so-called Hamas "victory" would mean any of that so you don't have to convince me! But I think that's probably a reasonable approximation of the thinking going on.
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
It is by now well established that internet blackouts are a prelude to some combination of mass murder, rape, torture, eviction, and other crimes committed by the strong against the weak.
Israel can shut down the internet in Gaza and despite every single person on the planet over the age of 12 knowing with 100% certainty it means Israel intends to commit widespread crimes against humanity even worse and more of them than they have to date, yet still people will desperately pretend not to know what it means. We also know with 100% certainty that no one with power will act.
After the great evil is committed and recordings of what happened trickle out, people will pretend to be shocked and horrified. I'd rather we were all honest and dispensed with the public displays of shock and surprise, or the even more dishonest pubic displays of ignorance. You don't get to pretend that we're ignorant. We KNOW what is happening.
posted by sotonohito at 3:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
Israel can shut down the internet in Gaza and despite every single person on the planet over the age of 12 knowing with 100% certainty it means Israel intends to commit widespread crimes against humanity even worse and more of them than they have to date, yet still people will desperately pretend not to know what it means. We also know with 100% certainty that no one with power will act.
After the great evil is committed and recordings of what happened trickle out, people will pretend to be shocked and horrified. I'd rather we were all honest and dispensed with the public displays of shock and surprise, or the even more dishonest pubic displays of ignorance. You don't get to pretend that we're ignorant. We KNOW what is happening.
posted by sotonohito at 3:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.How much water do you think they could have stored?
I'm not trying to be snarky; I genuinely have no idea what a reasonable estimate would be. But the rough amount I get from my uninformed back-of-the-envelope calculations for how much water is actually needed seems... enormous?
Mayo Clinic says that in a temperate climate, the average healthy adult male needs 3.7 liters per day, and the average healthy adult female needs 2.7. So say 3.2 liters per person per day. Of course that's high because so much of Gaza is populated by children, but it's also low because Gaza is not a temperate climate. I have no idea the degree to which these two opposing factors cancel each other out, but I'm just going for a rough estimate here.
They go on to say that it's typical to get about 20% of your water via food rather than via, well, water. So that brings it down to 0.8 * 3.2 = about 2.6 liters per person per day of liquid water. This is, I'm guessing, another low estimate, as they've also been cut off from food, but again, rough estimate.
Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 2.4 million people in the Gaza Strip as of 2022, so that makes it about 6.2 million liters per day (about 1.6 million gallons per day).
It's been, what, 21 days? So just to get to now, without any left for tomorrow, it's like 130 million gallons? Again, I'm not educated on this matter, but that seems like a whole lot of water that would have to have been hoarded?
I'm sure there are other factors my rough estimate is missing, e.g. (on the "estimate is high" end) "You don't need the amount the Mayo Clinic says you should have", "Some amount of water can theoretically be collected via rainfall on average in the best of situations", and "There was some amount of water left in the pipes even after the pipes were shut that could have been used ", or e.g. (on the "estimate is low" end) "Humans need water for more than just ingesting"). But honestly, my gut reaction to "Well now that the water supply of the population is cut off, Hamas isn't sharing their hoarded water with the population", in response to "Israel has cut off the water supply of the population" is that it seems like deflection, or at best of extremely short-term relevance.
posted by Flunkie at 3:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The water problem in Gaza is, in large part, a fuel problem - there's a major fresh water line from Israel to southern Gaza that is still being supplied, but the water network within Gaza needs fuel to operate the pumps that distribute it.
posted by kickingtheground at 3:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 3:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For the sake of widely spread thinking and discussion, I recommend @rootmetals on Instagram. She has been posting extensively on the historical and cultural context of the current conflict (I agree with mbo above, I don't like the term "war") from an Israeli and Jewish perspective. While some here won't agree with everything she says (I don't believe I do either) I think it's important to understand that this is a time of holding uncomfortable truths side by side within ourselves and that aligning with black/white good/bad thinking can be harmful.
Personally speaking, as a Jew with Muslim heritage on the same branches, these are difficult times to try to engage with anything. I don't feel comfortable expressing myself in Jewish or secular spaces. I want the horrific crimes going on in Gaza to end, but expressing that view in (many but not all) Jewish spaces is an invitation for scorn or being accused of not being "a real Jew". My similarly liberal friends have families in Israel and we talk about them in hushed voices. I've seen videos of antisemites latching on to peace rallies to shout horrific antisemitic slogans. On the flip side, lots of Jewish community spaces online are turning insular and toxic, often repeating vile Islamophobic bigotry, it's horrible to watch. But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
To borrow a phrase from Michael Chabon, these are strange times to be a Jew. And stranger times to be a Jew with a broken heart.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
Personally speaking, as a Jew with Muslim heritage on the same branches, these are difficult times to try to engage with anything. I don't feel comfortable expressing myself in Jewish or secular spaces. I want the horrific crimes going on in Gaza to end, but expressing that view in (many but not all) Jewish spaces is an invitation for scorn or being accused of not being "a real Jew". My similarly liberal friends have families in Israel and we talk about them in hushed voices. I've seen videos of antisemites latching on to peace rallies to shout horrific antisemitic slogans. On the flip side, lots of Jewish community spaces online are turning insular and toxic, often repeating vile Islamophobic bigotry, it's horrible to watch. But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
To borrow a phrase from Michael Chabon, these are strange times to be a Jew. And stranger times to be a Jew with a broken heart.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
The water problem in Gaza is, in large part, a fuel problem - there's a major fresh water line from Israel to southern Gaza that is still being supplied, but the water network within Gaza needs fuel to operate the pumps that distribute it.OK, and... so? There's no fuel because Israel has intentionally cut that off, too. So I'm still struggling to see how "Well Hamas is hoarding" is really applicable (or at least how it's all that comparable) to "Israel has cut the water supply off", in anything but a deflectionary sense.
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Fight or flight, thanks for sharing. I was going to write more, but I don't think it can do any justice.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
That "stockpile" article I believe was from NYT. So 'grain of salt' there on the way this is being reported. Part of the Propaganda war. There are probably undoubtably basic stockpiles to keep the active fighters going and always have been and never enough for the civilians.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
The history is complex and it is easy to make judgements from afar
evidence shows it is actually impossibly difficult for some people.
lots of longstanding bloody historical conflicts are complex, but the things that get the special rarified romanticized Complexity treatment from internet rhetoricians are the ones that make people in other involved countries feel guilt to think about and discomfort to talk about. genocide is still as wrong as it ever was.
you have to read a lot of history books to fully understand why the israeli government got to this point and from what starting positions, how the people in it could ever believe they are doing acceptable things right now, even perhaps believe that they have no choice. but you do not have to engage in the same kind of dedicated historical study to understand that they are wrong.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
evidence shows it is actually impossibly difficult for some people.
lots of longstanding bloody historical conflicts are complex, but the things that get the special rarified romanticized Complexity treatment from internet rhetoricians are the ones that make people in other involved countries feel guilt to think about and discomfort to talk about. genocide is still as wrong as it ever was.
you have to read a lot of history books to fully understand why the israeli government got to this point and from what starting positions, how the people in it could ever believe they are doing acceptable things right now, even perhaps believe that they have no choice. but you do not have to engage in the same kind of dedicated historical study to understand that they are wrong.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
fight or flight: But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
I feel like this is happening on Metafilter, at least compared to previous discussions, where the number of Jewish voices taking part gets smaller and quieter each time. Since the Hamas attacks I think a lot of people have been looking for places to grieve, places to process their fear and vulnerability and anger, but the overwhelming military response that we all knew was coming from the state of Israel, all the death and destruction that would come with it, all of the dead children and mangled bodies, all of that squeezed out the space for Jewish grief with knowledge of all the grief to come.
Or something like that. I'm not expressing myself perfectly, but hopefully I'm at least saying something.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
I feel like this is happening on Metafilter, at least compared to previous discussions, where the number of Jewish voices taking part gets smaller and quieter each time. Since the Hamas attacks I think a lot of people have been looking for places to grieve, places to process their fear and vulnerability and anger, but the overwhelming military response that we all knew was coming from the state of Israel, all the death and destruction that would come with it, all of the dead children and mangled bodies, all of that squeezed out the space for Jewish grief with knowledge of all the grief to come.
Or something like that. I'm not expressing myself perfectly, but hopefully I'm at least saying something.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 2.4 million people in the Gaza Strip as of 2022, so that makes it about 6.2 million liters per day (about 1.6 million gallons per day).Whoops, I multiplied the liters per day, not the gallons per day, by the number of days. So really it should have been like 130 million liters, not gallons, i.e. about 34 million gallons.
It's been, what, 21 days? So just to get to now, without any left for tomorrow, it's like 130 million gallons?
posted by Flunkie at 4:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Transcript of interview with Dominique De Villepin, former Prime Minister of France, who famously led France's opposition to the Iraq war.
posted by adamvasco at 4:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 4:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
I wanna live in this world where only half the US political elite favors pouring endless money into Israel and its occupation of Palestine. This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I wanna live in this world where only half the US political elite favors pouring endless money into Israel and its occupation of Palestine. This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
clawsoon I get people wanting a place to grieve.
However, if nothing else, turning these threads into a non-critical of Israel space would mean turning away people here who have ties to Palestine and the Palestinian people who are also looking for a place where they feel safe expressing themselves and their views.
This is not a good place for people on any side who feel grief and anguish to commiserate with others who feel the same way. That's not what these threads are for.
I'm pretty sure people with anguish for the suffering of either side who want such a space know where they exist. I mean, I know where a couple exist and I'm not even looking for them.
I don't want the people who feel betrayed, or unappreciated, or unwelcome by the criticism of Israel to leave. The conversation is worse for their absence. But also I don't want to say that the place I love the most on the web isn't a place to discuss what's going on either.
I don't know. I'm sure I've personally been contributory to at least one person deciding not to participate, and I don't like that. I've tried very hard not to be antisemitic and I don't believe myself to be antisemitic.
But I also know I'm not the one who gets to decide if I am or not. Whether or not I am antisemitic is, necessarily, a determination made individually by every Jewish person I interact with.
So I hope Jewish mefites stay, but that's the selfish hope of a person standing at the intersection of nearly every privilege that exists.
So yeah. I don't know.
fight or flight Thank you for linking to @rootmetals. It is indeed informative, educational, and a very good idea to get other people's perspectives on many matters.
I do disagree with more or less everything she says, especially her opposition to a ceasefire. I can see why she's making that argument. I can see how a person can argue that they're not seeking Palestinian blood while also opposing a ceasefire.
I think she's wrong, because even if we agree with her that it's fine to totally ignore Palestinian suffering in our actions because Hamas is awful, what's the end game?
So what happens next without a ceasefire?
No ceasefire means extinction for the people in Gaza. I'm fairly confident Israel has the military strength to keep up their attack indefinitely and eventually kill all the Hamas fighters who don't flee across some border. But doing so will mean killing most of the Palestinians in Gaza, or perhaps at best killing enough that the survivors are willing to become eternal refugees (assuming Netanyahu feels merciful and actually permits them to flee).
I understand why she opposes a ceasefire. But she doesn't appear to have thought through what that means and what the outcome of her proposal will be.
I don't deny that the outcome of the other proposal, the one I favor, a ceasefire and a return to the "normal" of Hamas running everything in Gaza and launching rockets from time to time to blow up random things in Israel and Israel bombing the fuck out of random places in Gaza is horrible. But I don't see any other way to avoid most/all Palestinians being driven out of Gaza or killed.
Maybe, at the end of the day, @rootmetals outcome actually is if not the best, at least the inevitable, outcome. But a choice between genocide on one hand and enduring random rockets on the other? I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
I would also argue the factor @rootmetals leaves out of her analysis is Netanyahu and the other Israeli anti-Palestinian people actively supporting Hamas. Could Hamas have broken all those ceasefires without Netanyahu supporting them? Could they continue to have an iron grip on political power in Gaza without the support of Netanyahu and his associates?
I don't know and neither does anyone else. But I **DO** think that history of the Israeli government actively supporting the extremist terrorists who want to kill them all means Israel owes the people of Gaza a ceasefire and an end to Israeli support of Hamas. Then we'll see where things stand after a decade. And yeah, that's easy for me to say.
But what's the alternative?
posted by sotonohito at 5:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
However, if nothing else, turning these threads into a non-critical of Israel space would mean turning away people here who have ties to Palestine and the Palestinian people who are also looking for a place where they feel safe expressing themselves and their views.
This is not a good place for people on any side who feel grief and anguish to commiserate with others who feel the same way. That's not what these threads are for.
I'm pretty sure people with anguish for the suffering of either side who want such a space know where they exist. I mean, I know where a couple exist and I'm not even looking for them.
I don't want the people who feel betrayed, or unappreciated, or unwelcome by the criticism of Israel to leave. The conversation is worse for their absence. But also I don't want to say that the place I love the most on the web isn't a place to discuss what's going on either.
I don't know. I'm sure I've personally been contributory to at least one person deciding not to participate, and I don't like that. I've tried very hard not to be antisemitic and I don't believe myself to be antisemitic.
But I also know I'm not the one who gets to decide if I am or not. Whether or not I am antisemitic is, necessarily, a determination made individually by every Jewish person I interact with.
So I hope Jewish mefites stay, but that's the selfish hope of a person standing at the intersection of nearly every privilege that exists.
So yeah. I don't know.
fight or flight Thank you for linking to @rootmetals. It is indeed informative, educational, and a very good idea to get other people's perspectives on many matters.
I do disagree with more or less everything she says, especially her opposition to a ceasefire. I can see why she's making that argument. I can see how a person can argue that they're not seeking Palestinian blood while also opposing a ceasefire.
I think she's wrong, because even if we agree with her that it's fine to totally ignore Palestinian suffering in our actions because Hamas is awful, what's the end game?
So what happens next without a ceasefire?
No ceasefire means extinction for the people in Gaza. I'm fairly confident Israel has the military strength to keep up their attack indefinitely and eventually kill all the Hamas fighters who don't flee across some border. But doing so will mean killing most of the Palestinians in Gaza, or perhaps at best killing enough that the survivors are willing to become eternal refugees (assuming Netanyahu feels merciful and actually permits them to flee).
I understand why she opposes a ceasefire. But she doesn't appear to have thought through what that means and what the outcome of her proposal will be.
I don't deny that the outcome of the other proposal, the one I favor, a ceasefire and a return to the "normal" of Hamas running everything in Gaza and launching rockets from time to time to blow up random things in Israel and Israel bombing the fuck out of random places in Gaza is horrible. But I don't see any other way to avoid most/all Palestinians being driven out of Gaza or killed.
Maybe, at the end of the day, @rootmetals outcome actually is if not the best, at least the inevitable, outcome. But a choice between genocide on one hand and enduring random rockets on the other? I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
I would also argue the factor @rootmetals leaves out of her analysis is Netanyahu and the other Israeli anti-Palestinian people actively supporting Hamas. Could Hamas have broken all those ceasefires without Netanyahu supporting them? Could they continue to have an iron grip on political power in Gaza without the support of Netanyahu and his associates?
I don't know and neither does anyone else. But I **DO** think that history of the Israeli government actively supporting the extremist terrorists who want to kill them all means Israel owes the people of Gaza a ceasefire and an end to Israeli support of Hamas. Then we'll see where things stand after a decade. And yeah, that's easy for me to say.
But what's the alternative?
posted by sotonohito at 5:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
What happens next is a lot of unknowns. How long will Hamas fight? Will Israel be so bloodied by the experience that they have to pull back as they did the last time they invaded Lebanon? Will Iran, Syria, Yemen (Houthi) and Hezbollah escalate the war? What does Biden do if Israel goes too far? Can Israel go to far for Biden? No one knows.
posted by interogative mood at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
sotonohito: clawsoon I get people wanting a place to grieve.
I'll say that I didn't go into the previous discussion with that in mind. I'm not particularly emotionally intelligent - I'm the guy who was telling Americans on the morning of 9/11 that America deserved it - and my instincts here are firmly with Palestinian civilians, who are facing not just horror but also explanations that their horror isn't so bad because it's being rained down on them in a civilized way.
But underneath all the arguments we were having in the other thread there was some kind of sadness, not only for Jewish deaths or for Palestinian deaths but also for the extremist takeovers of government that have made so many more deaths inevitable. We are a long way from the optimism of 1994, and it seems like we might never be able to get back there, and that's something to grieve, too.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I'll say that I didn't go into the previous discussion with that in mind. I'm not particularly emotionally intelligent - I'm the guy who was telling Americans on the morning of 9/11 that America deserved it - and my instincts here are firmly with Palestinian civilians, who are facing not just horror but also explanations that their horror isn't so bad because it's being rained down on them in a civilized way.
But underneath all the arguments we were having in the other thread there was some kind of sadness, not only for Jewish deaths or for Palestinian deaths but also for the extremist takeovers of government that have made so many more deaths inevitable. We are a long way from the optimism of 1994, and it seems like we might never be able to get back there, and that's something to grieve, too.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Coming into this thread very late, I grieve with all of you. I want peace for all of us. I also hope Israel can be pressured into a cease fire. I detest Netanyahu deeply. I am an American Jew, and I have been heartbroken since October 7th, more so every day.
Where I get stuck is being able to envision a good outcome of any sort. Israel did give Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005, and Hamas kept attacking. Hamas is fairly upfront in saying, time and and time again, they want to kill all the Jews, including me. I don't know how to create peace with that kind of enemy. I just don't see it. I desperately wish I could.
Zooming out a bit, I am also deeply disappointing with the surrounding Arabic community for not providing at least temporary refuge for the Palestinians. Egypt could open it's border. They are right there. And yet, they do not.
posted by birdsongster at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Where I get stuck is being able to envision a good outcome of any sort. Israel did give Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005, and Hamas kept attacking. Hamas is fairly upfront in saying, time and and time again, they want to kill all the Jews, including me. I don't know how to create peace with that kind of enemy. I just don't see it. I desperately wish I could.
Zooming out a bit, I am also deeply disappointing with the surrounding Arabic community for not providing at least temporary refuge for the Palestinians. Egypt could open it's border. They are right there. And yet, they do not.
posted by birdsongster at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Here is an article in Foreign Affairs Magazine that makes the case for the invasion of Gaza as the least bad option. The author James Jeffrey is very experienced senior American diplomat with decades of experience. I'm passing this along because it is useful to understand what people with power and influence are saying. Not out of any particular agreement.
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sharing this video of a spokesperson from Israeli human rights org B'Tselem on ABC, because I think it's worth circulating more widely. (It's a Xitter link, sorry.)
They discuss how numerous supporters and members of B'Tselem were murdered or taken captive on October 7, and express a still unwavering opposition to Israeli policy in Gaza and a commitment to a "shared future" for Palestinians and Israelis.
It's worth a watch--I can't say for certain I'd find myself in their ideological position if I personally knew people who were attacked on Oct. 7, which makes this person something of a hero to me.
posted by kensington314 at 6:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
They discuss how numerous supporters and members of B'Tselem were murdered or taken captive on October 7, and express a still unwavering opposition to Israeli policy in Gaza and a commitment to a "shared future" for Palestinians and Israelis.
It's worth a watch--I can't say for certain I'd find myself in their ideological position if I personally knew people who were attacked on Oct. 7, which makes this person something of a hero to me.
posted by kensington314 at 6:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Egypt and other Arab countries do not want to take in any more Palestinian refugees on account of past history suggesting that they never get to go home again. I think the pressure needs to be put on Israel to take in and house refugees from Gaza rather than simply tell people go hide in southern Gaza while we clean out the north, then you can go back to the north while we hit the south. Israel is the one place that if Palestinian refugees were going they would have a lot of confidence they would be going home again as soon as possible.
posted by interogative mood at 6:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Palestinians would also rightfully distrust that they'd be permitted to return by Israel once in Egypt or Jordan (in addition to Egypt's attitudes, having once been in charge of Gaza). Or to Gaza, if moved to the West Bank, for that matter. Were Israel to offer to shuttle them there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Palestinians would also rightfully distrust that they'd be permitted to return by Israel once in Egypt or Jordan (in addition to Egypt's attitudes, having once been in charge of Gaza).
I mean, yes, but—isn't that their choice to make? If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, yes, but—isn't that their choice to make? If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I expect there would be a lot of refugees who would indeed make that choice which is precisely why Egypt won't open the gate. The states around Israel are no friends to Palestinians apart from using them for their own political ends.
posted by Justinian at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Once refugee camps across the border exist, it become possible to cast not fleeing to them as a choice in which those remaining are imputed to have assumed the risk of remaining. So aside from neighbors' existing disinclination to help (Egypt's history, Jordan's client relationships), there is that calculation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
We are a long way from the optimism of 1994
I think almost daily of Yitzhak Rabin and what could have been.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 PM on October 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
I think almost daily of Yitzhak Rabin and what could have been.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 PM on October 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another
Can Israel in good conscience be trusted that its special military operation isn't another land grab (one which is still currently going on in the West Bank)?
This bloody mess is the result of policy by the Israeli state and particularly by that of leaders of its right-wing extremist government, who encourage settlers and expansion into land that is not theirs, as determined by the UN.
One consequence of that is little or no trust that refugees would be able to get back to their homes, let alone those homes left standing in the rubble, and that probably feeds into the calculations that neighboring states have to make. Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on October 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Can Israel in good conscience be trusted that its special military operation isn't another land grab (one which is still currently going on in the West Bank)?
This bloody mess is the result of policy by the Israeli state and particularly by that of leaders of its right-wing extremist government, who encourage settlers and expansion into land that is not theirs, as determined by the UN.
One consequence of that is little or no trust that refugees would be able to get back to their homes, let alone those homes left standing in the rubble, and that probably feeds into the calculations that neighboring states have to make. Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on October 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Rabin and Sharon both men who late in their lives came to understand that Israel needed to end its expansionist policies and get out while Israel could. Both of them tragically had their lives cut short. Also don’t forget Arafat turning down the deal offered by Ehud Barack in 1999 at Camp David.
And of course what really sealed the door on the tomb was the efforts to divide the Palestinians and ensure there was no unifying leader after Arafat. Guys like Marwan Barghouti who could have been a credible successor are rotting in Israeli prisons.
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
And of course what really sealed the door on the tomb was the efforts to divide the Palestinians and ensure there was no unifying leader after Arafat. Guys like Marwan Barghouti who could have been a credible successor are rotting in Israeli prisons.
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Once refugee camps across the border exist, it become possible to cast not fleeing to them as a choice in which those remaining are imputed to have assumed the risk of remaining. So aside from neighbors' existing disinclination to help (Egypt's history, Jordan's client relationships), there is that calculation.
Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
My naive response: I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I do understand this, but on another level... I think of the states who turned away Jewish refugees in the late '30s, and how harshly we criticize, e.g., the US's treatment of the passengers aboard the St. Louis. I know it's bad form to draw Holocaust comparisons (from the one side: but what's happening in Gaza isn't a genocide!—and from the other: but that was not a fight over land, like this is!), but that's the one that comes to mind, and I feel compelled to apply the same ethical principle here.
In the end, lives are more important than land, and while neighboring countries (to say nothing of countries even further out—Europe or America could volunteer to take in refugees transiting through Egypt or Jordan, for example) may have sound political reasons not to take refugees, it's a pretty morally fraught decision. (If a lot less fraught than, say, the decision to make a bunch of refugees in the first place.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
My naive response: I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I do understand this, but on another level... I think of the states who turned away Jewish refugees in the late '30s, and how harshly we criticize, e.g., the US's treatment of the passengers aboard the St. Louis. I know it's bad form to draw Holocaust comparisons (from the one side: but what's happening in Gaza isn't a genocide!—and from the other: but that was not a fight over land, like this is!), but that's the one that comes to mind, and I feel compelled to apply the same ethical principle here.
In the end, lives are more important than land, and while neighboring countries (to say nothing of countries even further out—Europe or America could volunteer to take in refugees transiting through Egypt or Jordan, for example) may have sound political reasons not to take refugees, it's a pretty morally fraught decision. (If a lot less fraught than, say, the decision to make a bunch of refugees in the first place.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Gershon Baskin, Award winning Times of Israel columnist, has negotiated with Hammas since 2006.
The Future of Hamas after October 7, 2023 – Part 1
“We Israelis must begin to confront the delusion that we have been living for decades. You cannot lock more than 2 million people into a human cage & expect quiet.”
I have repeatedly said in the Israeli Television studios that Israel cannot create deterrence against Hamas. Not only are Hamas fighters and leaders not afraid to die, they recruit Hamas fighters from early ages from bereaved families immediately after each round of conflict. They are then educated in the (distorted) Islamic values of dying for Palestine, for Allah, for Islam, for Al Aqsa and to get revenge for the death of their father, brother, mother, sister, etc. They truly believe that life on earth is short and only has true meaning if you become a martyr, a shaheed for Allah, Palestine, Al Aqsa, Islam and to get revenge. Becoming a shaheed is the guarantee to eternal paradise which is so much more important that the short life in this world. How can you build deterrence against this? But the retired generals in the TV studios never agreed and never listened, as well as the generals and politicians who make the real decisions about what Israel does.
posted by adamvasco at 7:04 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The Future of Hamas after October 7, 2023 – Part 1
“We Israelis must begin to confront the delusion that we have been living for decades. You cannot lock more than 2 million people into a human cage & expect quiet.”
I have repeatedly said in the Israeli Television studios that Israel cannot create deterrence against Hamas. Not only are Hamas fighters and leaders not afraid to die, they recruit Hamas fighters from early ages from bereaved families immediately after each round of conflict. They are then educated in the (distorted) Islamic values of dying for Palestine, for Allah, for Islam, for Al Aqsa and to get revenge for the death of their father, brother, mother, sister, etc. They truly believe that life on earth is short and only has true meaning if you become a martyr, a shaheed for Allah, Palestine, Al Aqsa, Islam and to get revenge. Becoming a shaheed is the guarantee to eternal paradise which is so much more important that the short life in this world. How can you build deterrence against this? But the retired generals in the TV studios never agreed and never listened, as well as the generals and politicians who make the real decisions about what Israel does.
posted by adamvasco at 7:04 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
My ancestors came to the United States fleeing pogroms in Europe. I am pretty sure they would have rather stayed home. I am pretty sure they didn't really want to uproot their entire lives to get on a crappy ship, spend months at sea, and start a new life thousands of miles away in a country where they didn't speak the language. But I am alive today because they did. And none of them ever ever went back.
I think every single person posting on this thread wants people not to die. We are all horrified at the every increasing violence and loss of civilian life. I think many of us wish there were something we could actually do.
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.
posted by birdsongster at 7:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think every single person posting on this thread wants people not to die. We are all horrified at the every increasing violence and loss of civilian life. I think many of us wish there were something we could actually do.
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.
posted by birdsongster at 7:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Sack implies that the invaders are mostly looting. Get in, get gold, get out. Yes, there's going to be a lot of murders and other crimes, but it's not in my armchair historian perspective the correct term. Level or especially raze seems much more accurate. Israel has already made sure there isn't much worth stealing, aside from the land and human lives built there. I don't think there is going to be much livable housing in northern Gaza when Israel is done.
Vox, Palestinians correctly fear permanent displacement at best, with a ton of Israeli politicians quotes.
On a personal level of a deeply unnecessary conflict that is causing horrific trauma and death to people of all kinds, my Israeli friend is kinda breaking my heart. She's queer, highly educated and in a helping/healing career, and went from protesting the massive right wing abuses and corruption of civilian government, to the war is necessary. Sigh. Terror always benefits those who would force control. Israel Patriot Act here we come. Please stop shooting civilians, everybody.
posted by Jacen at 7:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Vox, Palestinians correctly fear permanent displacement at best, with a ton of Israeli politicians quotes.
On a personal level of a deeply unnecessary conflict that is causing horrific trauma and death to people of all kinds, my Israeli friend is kinda breaking my heart. She's queer, highly educated and in a helping/healing career, and went from protesting the massive right wing abuses and corruption of civilian government, to the war is necessary. Sigh. Terror always benefits those who would force control. Israel Patriot Act here we come. Please stop shooting civilians, everybody.
posted by Jacen at 7:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The proposed long term ceasefire or Hunda in the article adamvasco linked requires Israel to abandon its long held demand that any deal has to include recognition of Israel’s right to exist and have a permanent border. It is very hard to sell Israelis on the idea that they will just let Hamas run Gaza under a ceasefire, rearm and continue to have the the threat of war. I don’t know how you sell the idea when ceasefire after previous rounds of violence and partial opening of Gaza has seemed to just allow Hamas to arm for the next war. I also don’t see why Hamas gets a pass one something that is obviously fundamental to a peace deal as mutual recognition.
posted by interogative mood at 7:33 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:33 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Israeli forces have killed 2270 Palestinian minors since the start of occupation. Hamas and other Palestinian groups have killed a total of 145.
Israeli forces have, overall, killed 20x more children than Palestinian forces. When it comes to sympathy for a civilian population, it isn't a difficult knowing which one my heart aches for more.
posted by paimapi at 7:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Israeli forces have, overall, killed 20x more children than Palestinian forces. When it comes to sympathy for a civilian population, it isn't a difficult knowing which one my heart aches for more.
posted by paimapi at 7:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Also adding to what Justinian wrote about Israel being unable to show any sign of weakness lest 20 neighbours declare war on them -
This is a large part of how Hamas gained power and influence - by building the narrative that they "won" against Israel in 2005 when Israel destroyed all their settlements and left Gaza. Hamas attacked and bombed Israel enough that they were forced to withdraw, so now all Palestinians should support us and we will win even greater victories, claim even more land. Heck, if West Bank were to have elections now, it's likely they will vote Hamas as well, so they have a shot at expelling all Jewish settlers just like in Gaza.
The security situation in Gaza has deteriorated markedly since 2005 when Israel showed signs of "weakness" - so you can be sure that Israel will absolutely not be going down that path again.
Looking at it from their point of view, building more settlements (West Bank) has allowed them to maintain security and weaken extremist groups, while destroying their settlements and withdrawing (Gaza) has allowed extremist groups to claim victory, massively grow their support and weapon arsenals - compare the number of rockets fired by Hamas today compared to 2005.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is a large part of how Hamas gained power and influence - by building the narrative that they "won" against Israel in 2005 when Israel destroyed all their settlements and left Gaza. Hamas attacked and bombed Israel enough that they were forced to withdraw, so now all Palestinians should support us and we will win even greater victories, claim even more land. Heck, if West Bank were to have elections now, it's likely they will vote Hamas as well, so they have a shot at expelling all Jewish settlers just like in Gaza.
The security situation in Gaza has deteriorated markedly since 2005 when Israel showed signs of "weakness" - so you can be sure that Israel will absolutely not be going down that path again.
Looking at it from their point of view, building more settlements (West Bank) has allowed them to maintain security and weaken extremist groups, while destroying their settlements and withdrawing (Gaza) has allowed extremist groups to claim victory, massively grow their support and weapon arsenals - compare the number of rockets fired by Hamas today compared to 2005.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.The surrounding countries have taken in millions of Palestinian refugees over the last seven decades, and none of them have been allowed back into Israel. A lot of them are still living in camps to this day.
posted by zymil at 7:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
I'm under the impression that Israel occupied Gaza from 1967-2005, and Ariel Sharon pulled back from that. Which more or less immediately triggered the Netanyahu government and the blockade. I don't support Hamas violence (And certainly not Israeli disproportionate collective improvement and punishment) but I can understand how 15 years of what is commonly described as a full on prison enforced by a heavily armed country could and does lead to violence.
At some point you have to wonder how much Israeli right wing goals means that peace is less beneficial than collecting land and reasons to keep pushing.
posted by Jacen at 8:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
At some point you have to wonder how much Israeli right wing goals means that peace is less beneficial than collecting land and reasons to keep pushing.
posted by Jacen at 8:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The blockade was started after Hamas won the Palestinian elections and took control of Gaza. That was separate from the withdrawal under Sharon. The blockade and sanctions have been harder at tines and have been eased at times as part of various ceasefire agreements. There have also been secret negotiations in Egypt as both parties officially reject the idea of direct talks since Israel has long preconditioned official talks on renouncing terrorism and accepting the right of an Israel to exist as a country.
Netanyahu has played a lot of games with the flow of money and aid to Gaza over the years. He will claim it is part of a strategy to maintain peace but he has been caught on tape saying it had a far more cynical purpose of keeping Hamas in power to divide the Palestinians and prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing.
Gaza is often described as a prison but the reality is more complicated. There are a lot of poor people, but there were also luxury apartments, day spas and shopping districts, even a university with international students. When I visited a few years ago it was much different than I expected. It felt like a lot of other places in the developing world under an authoritarian regime and high rates of poverty.
The controls on leaving and returning to Gaza for locals are horrible. The Hamas government is less corrupt than the PA according to most and does a good job providing services and welfare despite the sanctions/ blockade. Obviously none of that can outweigh the other things Hamas does like shooting rockets at civilians, murdering and kidnapping civilians, conducting terrorist attacks, etc.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Netanyahu has played a lot of games with the flow of money and aid to Gaza over the years. He will claim it is part of a strategy to maintain peace but he has been caught on tape saying it had a far more cynical purpose of keeping Hamas in power to divide the Palestinians and prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing.
Gaza is often described as a prison but the reality is more complicated. There are a lot of poor people, but there were also luxury apartments, day spas and shopping districts, even a university with international students. When I visited a few years ago it was much different than I expected. It felt like a lot of other places in the developing world under an authoritarian regime and high rates of poverty.
The controls on leaving and returning to Gaza for locals are horrible. The Hamas government is less corrupt than the PA according to most and does a good job providing services and welfare despite the sanctions/ blockade. Obviously none of that can outweigh the other things Hamas does like shooting rockets at civilians, murdering and kidnapping civilians, conducting terrorist attacks, etc.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues. Sadly, you bring up a good point that is a real problem - but it's easy to fall into the trap of false equivalency.
American Jews are far more aligned with the Democratic party, as shown by a 2021 Pew Research Center report.
The money coming from Republicans into Israel is working against the interests of most American Jews. It's coming from a party that has shown strong autocratic tendencies of late, a party that values strongman leaders very similar to Netanyahu. The money coming from Democrats has a chance of pressuring Israel to behave in a fashion that most American Jews want, a chance to chart a course more like President Carter and other leaders like him would help them work out.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
American Jews are far more aligned with the Democratic party, as shown by a 2021 Pew Research Center report.
The money coming from Republicans into Israel is working against the interests of most American Jews. It's coming from a party that has shown strong autocratic tendencies of late, a party that values strongman leaders very similar to Netanyahu. The money coming from Democrats has a chance of pressuring Israel to behave in a fashion that most American Jews want, a chance to chart a course more like President Carter and other leaders like him would help them work out.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Private money might be predominantly explicitly right-aligned, but the greater portion of aid to Israel comes directly from the US government, and the equivalency of the votes on that is not false. With very very rare Democratic exceptions, supposedly normal-brained lawmakers are just as rabidly Zionist as insane apocalypse-cult evangelicals.
posted by jy4m at 9:39 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 9:39 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
If the US were inclined to bust the blockade they wouldn't need something as logistically fraught as parachutes. Gaza borders the Mediterranean and Israel is currently mounting a naval blockade. The US could roll up with whatever bulk carriers they wanted and park them in Gaza ports and not have to have the cooperation of anyone but the Palestinians. Choosing not to is one of the ways they are complicent in the the Israeli's operation. Arguably one of the purposes for the position of the carrier groups is to strengthen that blockade by sending a strong message to anyone considering running the blockade that they'll also have to bypass the carrier groups.
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
Even if true a large stockpile for (number from earlier in the thread) 30-40K Hamas members is a drop in the bucket for the two order of magnitude greater number of Palistinians. A hundred days of stockpile for Hamas would last a single day if distributed equally.
posted by Mitheral at 11:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
If the US were inclined to bust the blockade they wouldn't need something as logistically fraught as parachutes. Gaza borders the Mediterranean and Israel is currently mounting a naval blockade. The US could roll up with whatever bulk carriers they wanted and park them in Gaza ports and not have to have the cooperation of anyone but the Palestinians. Choosing not to is one of the ways they are complicent in the the Israeli's operation. Arguably one of the purposes for the position of the carrier groups is to strengthen that blockade by sending a strong message to anyone considering running the blockade that they'll also have to bypass the carrier groups.
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
Even if true a large stockpile for (number from earlier in the thread) 30-40K Hamas members is a drop in the bucket for the two order of magnitude greater number of Palistinians. A hundred days of stockpile for Hamas would last a single day if distributed equally.
posted by Mitheral at 11:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
How does the US Government gain from all this funding and support, what do they get for their quid? 'Cause it sure doesn't make the Middle East more stable (or the globe), or is it really just to appease US end-times fundies (as they know God doesn't work like that, it's the ultimate hubris)? It's never made sense, I know the roots of Britain's involvement go back to WW1, but why the US?
posted by unearthed at 11:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by unearthed at 11:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Some comments from earlier deleted. We definitely don't need to begin interrogating the ethnic, religious, etc. identities of our fellow members. In general, please focus on news and facts rather than other people in the thread.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Air dropping aid into an area of active combat would get a lot of people killed. I’ve read some news reports that there is a lot of aid being shipped in and pre-positioned in Egypt and Israel with the goal of getting trucks with fuel, medicine and fuel to be ready to send in behind the IDF as areas are secured. We’ll see. I’m not holding my breath.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
jackbishop posted a prescient comment in the previous thread.
TL;DR - The Amaleks are a Biblical enemy of Israel, who absolutely are not predecessors of modern Palestiniansm but they are, conveniently the enemy about whom G*d told the Israelites, "you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven". (Deut 25:19)
Which brings us to Netanyahu today:
TL;DR - The Amaleks are a Biblical enemy of Israel, who absolutely are not predecessors of modern Palestiniansm but they are, conveniently the enemy about whom G*d told the Israelites, "you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven". (Deut 25:19)
Which brings us to Netanyahu today:
“They are determined to eradicate this evil from the world, for our existence and, I add, for all of humanity,” he says. The premier quotes the biblical injunction to remember what the Amalekites did to the Israelites. “We remember, and we are fighting.”posted by bcd at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
“They are determined to eradicate this evil from the world, for our existence and, I add, for all of humanity,” he says. The premier quotes the biblical injunction to remember what the Amalekites did to the Israelites. “We remember, and we are fighting.”1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass
posted by nikodym at 1:05 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. See note above about sticking to facts and info rather than focusing on other participants. Also, refrain from graphically violent / horrific descriptions and broadbrush accusations against other members.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
How does the US Government gain from all this funding and support, what do they get for their quid?
I wondered the same and found this Vox article from 2014.
I am with you all in grief. My heart is unbelievably heavy. I have made a point of not looking away from the horrible videos and images, not sure how wise that is from a psychological angle but I felt the need to witness what these people - these children, mostly, have gone through. That video of the little girl in a unicorn dress talking about how she is scared of the bombs and can't wait to go back to school and play with her friends - I cannot even type the words without crying.
I cannot help but fear the impact of this level of trauma on the remaining population, whatever happens to them, wherever they end up. How it will filter down through generations. As a Muslim with Jewish friends and in-laws, this feels very weighted down, very complicated and very personal.
posted by unicorn chaser at 2:56 AM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wondered the same and found this Vox article from 2014.
I am with you all in grief. My heart is unbelievably heavy. I have made a point of not looking away from the horrible videos and images, not sure how wise that is from a psychological angle but I felt the need to witness what these people - these children, mostly, have gone through. That video of the little girl in a unicorn dress talking about how she is scared of the bombs and can't wait to go back to school and play with her friends - I cannot even type the words without crying.
I cannot help but fear the impact of this level of trauma on the remaining population, whatever happens to them, wherever they end up. How it will filter down through generations. As a Muslim with Jewish friends and in-laws, this feels very weighted down, very complicated and very personal.
posted by unicorn chaser at 2:56 AM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
unearthed I don't think the US has much in the way of a real specific and unified goal. All American politicians benefit from an unstable and dangerous Middle East, I think therefore when politicians speak about wanting stability in the Middle East they're simply lying. American voters have a long and proven history of supporting war and voting for politicians who call for war the loudest.
American arms manufacturers like any war because it means bigger profits. Junior's wars sent most of the around five trillion dollars his wars cost from American taxpayers to the bank accounts of arms executives.
As for Israel in specific, Republicans strongly favor continuing to pass American tax dollars through Israel to American arms manufacturers, and so do a large number of Democrats. Keeping tax dollars going from poor Americans to the merchants of war is a bipartisan project. Remember, the "aid" sent to Israel is all for weapons and those weapons come from American corporations.
Additionally to the prevalence of Scofield derived apocalyptic beliefs among many/most of the Republican voters is a huge factor in Republican support for Israel. Without getting into details, a large block of American Christians believe Israel must expand to roughly its Biblical borders and be completely dominated by Jews as a precondition for the end of the world. And they want the world to end. So a large and vocal block of American Christians is in direct agreement with the Israeli right wing insofar as both want Israel to expand its borders and keep Jews as the overwhelming majority in those borders.
The Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Some, like Schumer, are personally Zionists at least in the sense of wanting Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland and while they may despise the right wing Israeli government, and genuinely feel anguish over the treatment of the Palestinian people, in the end their commitment to Zionism (however they define it) outweighs their dislike of Likud and its allies and their concern for Palestinian people.
I suspect a great many Democrats take a more cynical view and simply vote for whatever the latest "support Israel" bill demands because they view Jewish Americans as a valuable and consistent voting block and believe that despite complaints from more left wing Jewish Americans voting to allow the Israeli government to do whatever it wants to Palestinians is a means of securing those Jewish votes.
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
posted by sotonohito at 5:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
American arms manufacturers like any war because it means bigger profits. Junior's wars sent most of the around five trillion dollars his wars cost from American taxpayers to the bank accounts of arms executives.
As for Israel in specific, Republicans strongly favor continuing to pass American tax dollars through Israel to American arms manufacturers, and so do a large number of Democrats. Keeping tax dollars going from poor Americans to the merchants of war is a bipartisan project. Remember, the "aid" sent to Israel is all for weapons and those weapons come from American corporations.
Additionally to the prevalence of Scofield derived apocalyptic beliefs among many/most of the Republican voters is a huge factor in Republican support for Israel. Without getting into details, a large block of American Christians believe Israel must expand to roughly its Biblical borders and be completely dominated by Jews as a precondition for the end of the world. And they want the world to end. So a large and vocal block of American Christians is in direct agreement with the Israeli right wing insofar as both want Israel to expand its borders and keep Jews as the overwhelming majority in those borders.
The Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Some, like Schumer, are personally Zionists at least in the sense of wanting Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland and while they may despise the right wing Israeli government, and genuinely feel anguish over the treatment of the Palestinian people, in the end their commitment to Zionism (however they define it) outweighs their dislike of Likud and its allies and their concern for Palestinian people.
I suspect a great many Democrats take a more cynical view and simply vote for whatever the latest "support Israel" bill demands because they view Jewish Americans as a valuable and consistent voting block and believe that despite complaints from more left wing Jewish Americans voting to allow the Israeli government to do whatever it wants to Palestinians is a means of securing those Jewish votes.
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
posted by sotonohito at 5:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
I had this whole plan to come in from my morning walk and write up something about the motivations of Americans in funding Israel, and you saved me the trouble! Thank you. Your perspective doesn't exactly match mine, but it's close enough.
The Philly Inquirer has a really deep op-ed by Trudy Rubin this morning, and I think it gives a good idea of the perspective of many 'Zionist' American Jews. Take a look if you want that view.
(and someone can post an Archive version once it's available)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 6:01 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had this whole plan to come in from my morning walk and write up something about the motivations of Americans in funding Israel, and you saved me the trouble! Thank you. Your perspective doesn't exactly match mine, but it's close enough.
The Philly Inquirer has a really deep op-ed by Trudy Rubin this morning, and I think it gives a good idea of the perspective of many 'Zionist' American Jews. Take a look if you want that view.
(and someone can post an Archive version once it's available)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 6:01 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
The Arab states dare not accept any Palestinian refugees due to the civil wars or unrest they have incited - this is going to be a historical overview and rather link heavy.
Fundamentally, the PLO and Hamas are heavily armed terrorist organizations with broad support among their population, and any large population of refugees has continued to support their causes, whatever they are.
Jordan was hosting 200,000 Palestinian refugees in 1970 when they - under the PLO - tried to overthrow Jordan's Hashemite monarchy, in the Black September civil war (Wiki). They hijacked 3 planes, shot at King Hussein's motorcade several times, and even elicited foreign forces in the form of the PLA from Syria who crossed the border with 300 tanks to support the PLO. Rocket attacks by the PLO from Jordanian territory into Israel put Jordan in a precarious position - they were now being attacked by their Arab neighbours and Israel at the same time, and were in a position where they had to attack their own cities occupied by the PLO to appease Israel. Black September gunmen assassinated Jordan's Prime Minister in 1971 (Wiki).
Going back further in time, even Jordan's King Abdullah (Wiki) was assassinated by a Palestinian extremist in 1951.
Lebanon was hosting 400,000 Palestinian refugees when in 1975, the central command of PLO armed activities shifted to Lebanon after the Black September civil war ended with a Jordanian victory. The PLO created a "state within a state" in Lebanon and took control of the southern part of the country, resulting in the Lebanese civil war (Wiki) which lasted 15 years and ended with 120,000 fatalities. Similar to the experience in Jordan, the PLO were simultaneously attacking Israel and Lebanon at the same time.
Israel decided to invade Lebanon to stop the attacks from the PLO, so they intervened in the 1982 Lebanon War (Wiki) to help the Lebanese Maronite government root out the PLO and expel them from the country once and for all. 20,500 PLO and Fatah fighters were besieged in Beirut for 2 months before finally surrendering and were offered safe passage out of the country - they then moved the PLO base of operations to Tunisia.
As for Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood (Wiki) is a designated terrorist group, and Hamas is an offshoot of that - that whole saga has lasted almost 100 years with multiple crackdowns and mass arrests and executions. While Hamas has recently claimed to have broken ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, their neighbours aren't convinced.
There were 287,000 Palestinians in Kuwait (Wikipedia) after the war in 1991. Due to the Palestinians support for both the PLO and Saddam Hussein, virtually all were expelled from the country in a single week and told never to return.
---
So you can see why Egypt's border with Gaza is even more fortified and restricted than Israel's.
Egypt has literally salted the earth by pumping seawater into Rafah (Reuters), in order to destroy 1,900 tunnels used for smuggling weapons. Arable farmland was destroyed and their wells were poisoned, making them even more reliant on outside sources for food and water. Israel hasn't done anything like that - yet.
posted by xdvesper at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2023 [31 favorites]
The Arab states dare not accept any Palestinian refugees due to the civil wars or unrest they have incited - this is going to be a historical overview and rather link heavy.
Fundamentally, the PLO and Hamas are heavily armed terrorist organizations with broad support among their population, and any large population of refugees has continued to support their causes, whatever they are.
Jordan was hosting 200,000 Palestinian refugees in 1970 when they - under the PLO - tried to overthrow Jordan's Hashemite monarchy, in the Black September civil war (Wiki). They hijacked 3 planes, shot at King Hussein's motorcade several times, and even elicited foreign forces in the form of the PLA from Syria who crossed the border with 300 tanks to support the PLO. Rocket attacks by the PLO from Jordanian territory into Israel put Jordan in a precarious position - they were now being attacked by their Arab neighbours and Israel at the same time, and were in a position where they had to attack their own cities occupied by the PLO to appease Israel. Black September gunmen assassinated Jordan's Prime Minister in 1971 (Wiki).
Going back further in time, even Jordan's King Abdullah (Wiki) was assassinated by a Palestinian extremist in 1951.
Lebanon was hosting 400,000 Palestinian refugees when in 1975, the central command of PLO armed activities shifted to Lebanon after the Black September civil war ended with a Jordanian victory. The PLO created a "state within a state" in Lebanon and took control of the southern part of the country, resulting in the Lebanese civil war (Wiki) which lasted 15 years and ended with 120,000 fatalities. Similar to the experience in Jordan, the PLO were simultaneously attacking Israel and Lebanon at the same time.
Israel decided to invade Lebanon to stop the attacks from the PLO, so they intervened in the 1982 Lebanon War (Wiki) to help the Lebanese Maronite government root out the PLO and expel them from the country once and for all. 20,500 PLO and Fatah fighters were besieged in Beirut for 2 months before finally surrendering and were offered safe passage out of the country - they then moved the PLO base of operations to Tunisia.
As for Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood (Wiki) is a designated terrorist group, and Hamas is an offshoot of that - that whole saga has lasted almost 100 years with multiple crackdowns and mass arrests and executions. While Hamas has recently claimed to have broken ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, their neighbours aren't convinced.
There were 287,000 Palestinians in Kuwait (Wikipedia) after the war in 1991. Due to the Palestinians support for both the PLO and Saddam Hussein, virtually all were expelled from the country in a single week and told never to return.
---
So you can see why Egypt's border with Gaza is even more fortified and restricted than Israel's.
Egypt has literally salted the earth by pumping seawater into Rafah (Reuters), in order to destroy 1,900 tunnels used for smuggling weapons. Arable farmland was destroyed and their wells were poisoned, making them even more reliant on outside sources for food and water. Israel hasn't done anything like that - yet.
posted by xdvesper at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2023 [31 favorites]
I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
sotonohito, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so. Can you offer any?
Not trying to be contentious. I am thinking about examples of persistent, skirmish/"low-grade" conflicts that come to mind, especially around border issues. Such examples as come to mind are mostly historical, or situations where a persistent tit-for-tat is the only viable option for equally matched combatants. In the modern era, I could see rockets-for-rockets as a viable (if still bad) political alternative along very lightly settled borders, but "lightly settled" does not describe Gaza or adjacent areas.
In the end, lives are more important than land
I do not know what the answer is for the current conflict, but this sentiment (common on the blue, and in many places more broadly) is fundamentally at odds with the way wars have often been waged throughout history, for all that peace does occasionally break out, and people sometimes do decide to stop killing each other. I do not consider my perspective cynical, merely realistic.
Like many others here, I am trying to understand possibilities for routes forward outside of the wildly biased and misinformation-full news, "news," and free-for-all social media, advocated by people with deep knowledge of the conflict and its history. With respect and sympathy for commenters here (and my friends and colleagues who Jewish, Muslim, and/or who have ties to the region), I am unsure what calls for peace do in a situation where the combatants are so deeply opposed. At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that. I hope that there are some truly fierce peacemakers out there.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
sotonohito, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so. Can you offer any?
Not trying to be contentious. I am thinking about examples of persistent, skirmish/"low-grade" conflicts that come to mind, especially around border issues. Such examples as come to mind are mostly historical, or situations where a persistent tit-for-tat is the only viable option for equally matched combatants. In the modern era, I could see rockets-for-rockets as a viable (if still bad) political alternative along very lightly settled borders, but "lightly settled" does not describe Gaza or adjacent areas.
In the end, lives are more important than land
I do not know what the answer is for the current conflict, but this sentiment (common on the blue, and in many places more broadly) is fundamentally at odds with the way wars have often been waged throughout history, for all that peace does occasionally break out, and people sometimes do decide to stop killing each other. I do not consider my perspective cynical, merely realistic.
Like many others here, I am trying to understand possibilities for routes forward outside of the wildly biased and misinformation-full news, "news," and free-for-all social media, advocated by people with deep knowledge of the conflict and its history. With respect and sympathy for commenters here (and my friends and colleagues who Jewish, Muslim, and/or who have ties to the region), I am unsure what calls for peace do in a situation where the combatants are so deeply opposed. At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that. I hope that there are some truly fierce peacemakers out there.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so.
For me, the issue is largely one of proportionality. "Fighting back" covers a lot of potential responses that are less disastrous for civilian populations than Israel's current campaign.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
For me, the issue is largely one of proportionality. "Fighting back" covers a lot of potential responses that are less disastrous for civilian populations than Israel's current campaign.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that.
It has to be. Not because it's a good solution or even the best solution, it's the least bad solution.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:38 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It has to be. Not because it's a good solution or even the best solution, it's the least bad solution.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:38 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The problem of intermingled, indistinguishable civilians and combatants is a bad one. The most common just war-type moral answer ("avoid or stop killing people, because you will sooner or later kill civilians, intentionally or not") generally rests on the assumption that the combatant intermingled with civilians will give up eventually and stop attacking. Or at least, that's how I've usually seen it deployed. I don't know what a proportional response looks like in this situation, and I don't know the month-to-month or year-to-year details of the conflict well enough to know if there ever have been proportional responses, or what their outcomes have been.
(Because these threads can get heated, I want to clarify that I am not advocating for violence, or for the targeting of civilians, noncombatants, etc. I also do not conflate here Hamas and Palestinians broadly.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:59 AM on October 29, 2023
(Because these threads can get heated, I want to clarify that I am not advocating for violence, or for the targeting of civilians, noncombatants, etc. I also do not conflate here Hamas and Palestinians broadly.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:59 AM on October 29, 2023
The problem of intermingled, indistinguishable civilians and combatants is a bad one. The most common just war-type moral answer ("avoid or stop killing people, because you will sooner or later kill civilians, intentionally or not") generally rests on the assumption that the combatant intermingled with civilians will give up eventually and stop attacking. Or at least, that's how I've usually seen it deployed. I don't know what a proportional response looks like in this situation, and I don't know the month-to-month or year-to-year details of the conflict well enough to know if there ever have been proportional responses, or what their outcomes have been.
I've been thinking about this a lot, without finding any (to me) convincing answers. Hamas deliberately hides among/behind civilians for protection, in order to create the moral dilemma where attacking them means knowing it will cause civilian deaths, or allowing them to continue their own attacks from safety. No nation anywhere is going to be ok with having a terrorist organization literally on their border that is actively attacking civilian and military targets. I can't think of any developed nation that would tolerate this, or that wouldn't respond disproportionately to an Oct. 7 type of attack.
But, this is also a situation where the prime minister of Israel and his coalition appear to bear some direct responsibility for creating the dynamic that led to the attack. It's all messy and complicated. I certainly don't see the possibility of creating a different dynamic (one that moves however incrementally towards a long term peace) while he stays in power.
It's all horrible to watch and it makes me feel ill. Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
I've been thinking about this a lot, without finding any (to me) convincing answers. Hamas deliberately hides among/behind civilians for protection, in order to create the moral dilemma where attacking them means knowing it will cause civilian deaths, or allowing them to continue their own attacks from safety. No nation anywhere is going to be ok with having a terrorist organization literally on their border that is actively attacking civilian and military targets. I can't think of any developed nation that would tolerate this, or that wouldn't respond disproportionately to an Oct. 7 type of attack.
But, this is also a situation where the prime minister of Israel and his coalition appear to bear some direct responsibility for creating the dynamic that led to the attack. It's all messy and complicated. I certainly don't see the possibility of creating a different dynamic (one that moves however incrementally towards a long term peace) while he stays in power.
It's all horrible to watch and it makes me feel ill. Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Lord Peter Ricketts is a former diplomat and was
was the FCO Arab-Israel desk officer in 1982 at the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.:
The message is simple. Mil operations alone don’t achieve pol objectives. Destroying enemy infrastructure does not produce security. That requires a strategy for who governs the territory once the fighting stops and how to break the cycle by giving people hope for the future.
Does Israel / USA have a strategy?
Obliteration is not a strategy. Apart that is from increased Arms sales to the benefit of US corporations and thus Political contributions for the upcoming elections.
posted by adamvasco at 8:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
was the FCO Arab-Israel desk officer in 1982 at the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.:
The message is simple. Mil operations alone don’t achieve pol objectives. Destroying enemy infrastructure does not produce security. That requires a strategy for who governs the territory once the fighting stops and how to break the cycle by giving people hope for the future.
Does Israel / USA have a strategy?
Obliteration is not a strategy. Apart that is from increased Arms sales to the benefit of US corporations and thus Political contributions for the upcoming elections.
posted by adamvasco at 8:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Dip Flash: I mean, even if they had to respond, I don't think anyone has convincingly argued that their response had to be this one. They're a massively more powerful state, and have the capability to be significantly more discriminate than they are now, not to mention that they've been developing the conditions for exactly this for decades.
People are "leaping" to blame Israel because they have already killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has, and have a long-term record of violating the human rights of Palestinians. I don't like how many commenters online are excusing Israeli war crimes with a "they started it" narrative that ignores decades of history and dehumanization. I don't like how many commenters online are demanding everyone start every criticism of Israel with "Of course, Hamas is worse" before we can call out the destruction of infrastructure, homes, and whole families by airstrikes. I don't like how many commenters are saying "Gaza isn't a prison, because tourists can go there", as if Palestinians weren't treated as second-class citizens, trapped in a city the cannot leave.
posted by sagc at 8:36 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
People are "leaping" to blame Israel because they have already killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has, and have a long-term record of violating the human rights of Palestinians. I don't like how many commenters online are excusing Israeli war crimes with a "they started it" narrative that ignores decades of history and dehumanization. I don't like how many commenters online are demanding everyone start every criticism of Israel with "Of course, Hamas is worse" before we can call out the destruction of infrastructure, homes, and whole families by airstrikes. I don't like how many commenters are saying "Gaza isn't a prison, because tourists can go there", as if Palestinians weren't treated as second-class citizens, trapped in a city the cannot leave.
posted by sagc at 8:36 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
Pet Rock, the "two state solution" has been dead for decades. The time to implement it was after the Oslo Accords. If it were possible for Israel to simply allow Palestinians to exist as neighbors, it would have done so then. But Israel is a settler ethnostate. It is constitutionally committed to racial purity, and it was founded on the mass killing and expulsion of indigenous people. As long as "liberals" are still repeating banalities about a "Jewish homeland" and "the right to defend itself," Israel has no reason to respect the continued existence of the people it has slaughtered.
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.
posted by jy4m at 8:50 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.
posted by jy4m at 8:50 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Someone was kind enough to send me down a rabbit hole that led me to Airstrikes While You Wait (by David Schraub, who also wrote about how leftists who aren't Jews are rarely interrogated about their support-or-not for their own nations the way that leftist Jews are always interrogated about Israel, which I found to be an interesting perspective):
With the Israeli government locked in paralysis over how to resolve the current crisis, the airstrikes have all the appearance of a deadly holding pattern -- a "something" to do while the army waits for the politicians to figure out an actual plan. Taken that way, it's hard to justify the airstrikes -- and the massive devastation they've caused to Gaza's civilian population -- as justified.posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The airstrikes are cast as necessary to a campaign of "destroying Hamas", and maybe if they actually would accomplish that end they could be warranted. But in reality, when you drill down to it, there's virtually no evidence presented that the airstrikes are at all effective at securing that goal. The airstrikes are not "destroying Hamas". Rather, it seems like Israel doesn't yet have a plan for how to "destroy Hamas" and is lobbing missiles into Gaza while it tries to figure it out.
The term "proportional" is often misused in international conflicts -- it's not a requirement that all military violence be meted out at a 1:1 ratio -- but here the actual legal meaning is illustrative: the question is whether the expected military benefit is proportionate to the anticipated civilian cost. There's been little evidence presented that these airstrikes actually have much in the way of expected military benefit vis-a-vis the objective of destroying Hamas, and so is hard to justify against the damage dealt to innocent civilians.
One name given to Netanyahu's overall failed strategy for relating to Palestinians was "managing the conflict". The term, like "mowing the lawn", was a self-conscious abdication of any effort to actually resolve the conflict; it accepted that the conflict would exist in perpetuity and tried to tamp down on the costs (to Israel) to acceptable levels...
And so again, the airstrikes really seem more than anything like a stalling tactic. They are not a route out of the crisis, they do not even move Israel materially in the direction of emerging from the crisis. Rather, they are a relatively costless (for Israel; for Palestine the costs are devastating) measure it can dole out to do something while it gropes for an actual way out of the crisis that has eluded it thus far.
Rather, it seems like Israel doesn't yet have a plan for how to "destroy Hamas" and is lobbing missiles into Gaza while it tries to figure it out.
i think they thought they had one and realized that, no, just going in there isn't going to work - tactically it would take months - operationally, they cannot be sure that hezbollah will not go all out to stop them and they are pretty certain they won't get anything better than a bloody draw against them
politically and strategically, it's a disaster - much of the world, especially the countries nearby, is going to turn against them - they do not have the power to eliminate their enemies short of extreme measures
the crimes of hamas was the first, but the lesser shock - the greater shock will be when they realize that short of extermination, they cannot eliminate hamas, hezbollah or any of the other forces against them - (i think that's starting to sink in now)
the middle east seems to be on its way to becoming a bunch of hostile warlord states with today's borders ignored and this could be the catalyst
posted by pyramid termite at 9:30 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
i think they thought they had one and realized that, no, just going in there isn't going to work - tactically it would take months - operationally, they cannot be sure that hezbollah will not go all out to stop them and they are pretty certain they won't get anything better than a bloody draw against them
politically and strategically, it's a disaster - much of the world, especially the countries nearby, is going to turn against them - they do not have the power to eliminate their enemies short of extreme measures
the crimes of hamas was the first, but the lesser shock - the greater shock will be when they realize that short of extermination, they cannot eliminate hamas, hezbollah or any of the other forces against them - (i think that's starting to sink in now)
the middle east seems to be on its way to becoming a bunch of hostile warlord states with today's borders ignored and this could be the catalyst
posted by pyramid termite at 9:30 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel.
Even easier: let all Palestinians be citizens of full Israel. There’s 2 million already, up that number a couple more million, and see how they vote.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:31 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Even easier: let all Palestinians be citizens of full Israel. There’s 2 million already, up that number a couple more million, and see how they vote.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:31 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.I don't agree with you in that the dissolution of Israel would be the best solution. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be the most just solution for the people who have long been denied their land and seen their citizenship status within their traditional lands diminished. The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century. A bunch of ethnic groups all forced to live together with long standing and still hot to simmering ethnic and sectarian tensions? You could have the British and French draw country lines with a ruler and a pen and get better results in terms of civil strife.
I'm not saying two state is a good solution. Two state is a bad solution. But I think all the others are even worse.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
It is constitutionally committed to racial purity
Ok, I jumped into this new thread to make a different contribution, but just want to first briefly address this recent factually incorrect statement, which is a bit troubling when paired with the phrase "banalities about a 'Jewish homeland.'" Israel is committed to being a safe-haven for Jewish people - this isn't racial - as another user helpfully explained in the last thread, "31.8% of Israelis are estimated to be Ashkenazi, although this includes some groups who identify as Sephardi. 44.9% are Mizrahi, which roughly means they come from east of Israel." Worth noting that a good chunk of the Ashkenazis are Russian, who fled persecution in USSR. There is also a much smaller population of Ethiopian Jews. They also face a lot of racism in the country, so one needs to be careful with citing this example as a reason to applaud Israel - the point is just that Israel has served a purpose of providing safe haven to Jews facing violence. You can be a sharp critic of Israel, particularly recent Israeli actions - if you check the first thread, you'll see ample evidence that I am quite critical - but claiming Israel is "committed to racial purity" and that the desire/value of a "Jewish homeland" is banal is not helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 9:48 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
Ok, I jumped into this new thread to make a different contribution, but just want to first briefly address this recent factually incorrect statement, which is a bit troubling when paired with the phrase "banalities about a 'Jewish homeland.'" Israel is committed to being a safe-haven for Jewish people - this isn't racial - as another user helpfully explained in the last thread, "31.8% of Israelis are estimated to be Ashkenazi, although this includes some groups who identify as Sephardi. 44.9% are Mizrahi, which roughly means they come from east of Israel." Worth noting that a good chunk of the Ashkenazis are Russian, who fled persecution in USSR. There is also a much smaller population of Ethiopian Jews. They also face a lot of racism in the country, so one needs to be careful with citing this example as a reason to applaud Israel - the point is just that Israel has served a purpose of providing safe haven to Jews facing violence. You can be a sharp critic of Israel, particularly recent Israeli actions - if you check the first thread, you'll see ample evidence that I am quite critical - but claiming Israel is "committed to racial purity" and that the desire/value of a "Jewish homeland" is banal is not helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 9:48 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Statements like the above really add meat to the argument that for many Israelis and other Jews, it remains an existential problem. I touched base with a former coworker who is an orthodox Jew, and that's what he was stressing. How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
Can't see this attitude being very useful, either.
Israel holds most of the cards. They have the power and the control, with the backing and approval of major world powers, if not the UN. With great power comes great responsibility....
I was shocked and appalled by the savage terrorist attack on Israel. I am saddened but not surprised by the brutal response. I'm pretty sure it's the reaction that Hamas wanted. Yes i wish for a ceasefire and other efforts to spare innocents. I don't yet see any light at the end of this particular tunnel.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:39 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Statements like the above really add meat to the argument that for many Israelis and other Jews, it remains an existential problem. I touched base with a former coworker who is an orthodox Jew, and that's what he was stressing. How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
Can't see this attitude being very useful, either.
Israel holds most of the cards. They have the power and the control, with the backing and approval of major world powers, if not the UN. With great power comes great responsibility....
I was shocked and appalled by the savage terrorist attack on Israel. I am saddened but not surprised by the brutal response. I'm pretty sure it's the reaction that Hamas wanted. Yes i wish for a ceasefire and other efforts to spare innocents. I don't yet see any light at the end of this particular tunnel.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:39 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
EmpirePodcast. William Dalrymple & Anita Anand joined by Tom Segev.
Origins of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.
The Balfour Declaration was published on the 9th November 1917. It stated the intent of the British government to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 10:43 AM on October 29, 2023
Origins of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.
The Balfour Declaration was published on the 9th November 1917. It stated the intent of the British government to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 10:43 AM on October 29, 2023
Israel is committed neither to racial purity nor ethnic purity nor religious purity. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel. I bring them up not to defend Israel as a multicultural paradise — Arab Israelis face plenty of discrimination, unequal services, and even violence from the religious right — but because I hate to see them erased. They are some of the strongest voices for peace. On a personal level, Arab Israelis have been some of the loveliest, friendliest, and most clear-sighted people I have had the good fortune to meet. They were also victims of the indiscriminate violence of October 7th. They hold a wide range of views regarding the conflict and what sort of solution they prefer (one-state vs. two-state vs. some other alternative). Arab Israelis exist and they matter and they are valuable and they deserve recognition and to have a say in their security and their future. To treat Israel as if it is already a monolithic ethnostate is to cede ground to the right-wingers who would like it to be so. That is not the mainstream view; most Jewish Israelis see Arab Israelis as fellow citizens and neighbors and friends. Part of the struggle against Netanyahu and his ilk in the political crisis of the past five years is a struggle to maintain Israel as a multicultural liberal democracy.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on October 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on October 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
I just read this, also from Schraub:
Sadly, however, it keeps feeling like the Sri Lankan civil war is probably a better parallel for the direction that the Israel-Palestine conflict has gone, and that was ended in a way that I think only the most hardline Israeli extremists would appreciate.
posted by clawsoon at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Imagine that Israel tomorrow announced a suite of policy alterations towards the Gaza Strip that are the dream of all those signing cease-fire petitions: an end to the siege, a release of prisoners, a commitment to reconstruction, the works. What would be the result? It would be to suggest that, as terrible as Hamas' actions were, they were ultimately what shocked the Israeli government out of its torpor and forced it to the negotiating table... Israel at some level needs to devastate Hamas because the alternative is that Hamas learns that operations like these are winning strategies that should be repeated as frequently as possible....and it got me thinking about the Oka Crisis here in Canada. It's a different situation for many, many reasons, but one of the things that came out of it was precisely that the Mohawk warriors did shock the Canadian government "out of its torpor". A bunch of heavily armed Indigenous people are a major reason that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission happened and that Indigenous land claims are being taken much more seriously. There is still a looooooooong way to go, but it started a process. Meeting the needs and recognizing the rights of Gaza, even if violence was the trigger, is not some ridiculous idea that can only lead to the destruction of Israel.
Sadly, however, it keeps feeling like the Sri Lankan civil war is probably a better parallel for the direction that the Israel-Palestine conflict has gone, and that was ended in a way that I think only the most hardline Israeli extremists would appreciate.
posted by clawsoon at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Probably not by indiscriminately killing thousands of civilians, as the IDF is currently doing, since that will only bolster support for those movements, as Netanyahu and his allies know.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:08 AM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Probably not by indiscriminately killing thousands of civilians, as the IDF is currently doing, since that will only bolster support for those movements, as Netanyahu and his allies know.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:08 AM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
the alternative is that Hamas learns that
It just struck me how much operant conditioning language I've read over the years in Israeli discussion of how Palestinian actions must be responded to. "If we cause them pain, they will learn one thing; if we don't cause them pain, the will learn a different thing." The people on the other side aren't treated as people, but as lab rats to be forced through the maze in the correct direction. They are treated as if an electric shock is the only language they can understand.
Lots of people talk like this about lots of situations, of course, it's not in any way limited to Israel-Palestine. Whenever this language is used, though, it feels like there's an element of dehumanization entering the conversation.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
It just struck me how much operant conditioning language I've read over the years in Israeli discussion of how Palestinian actions must be responded to. "If we cause them pain, they will learn one thing; if we don't cause them pain, the will learn a different thing." The people on the other side aren't treated as people, but as lab rats to be forced through the maze in the correct direction. They are treated as if an electric shock is the only language they can understand.
Lots of people talk like this about lots of situations, of course, it's not in any way limited to Israel-Palestine. Whenever this language is used, though, it feels like there's an element of dehumanization entering the conversation.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
Jewish migration to the region predated the British mandate and the Balfour declaration. There was also a
community of at least 25,000 Jews out of a population of between 300,000-400,000 who were present in the region before Jewish migration began to rise in the 1870s. Initially this migration was actively encouraged by the Ottomans who wanted to address a perceived labor shortage.
posted by interogative mood at 11:22 AM on October 29, 2023
community of at least 25,000 Jews out of a population of between 300,000-400,000 who were present in the region before Jewish migration began to rise in the 1870s. Initially this migration was actively encouraged by the Ottomans who wanted to address a perceived labor shortage.
posted by interogative mood at 11:22 AM on October 29, 2023
Israel is committed neither to racial purity nor ethnic purity nor religious purity. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel.
That's kind of the fundamental problem though. Israel may not be committed to purity, but they are committed to maintaining a state with a strong majority of Jewish people. The reality is if the people who live within Israel and the occupied territories all had equal rights, you would see an Arab majority quite soon due to the difference in birth rate. Likely almost immediately if you allowed Palestinians currently outside to return.
In that context, it becomes more clear that the argument is essentially that Israel can't allow Palestinians to have those kinds of rights, because they might do to Jewish Israelis what they themselves are currently doing to Palestinians.
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
That's kind of the fundamental problem though. Israel may not be committed to purity, but they are committed to maintaining a state with a strong majority of Jewish people. The reality is if the people who live within Israel and the occupied territories all had equal rights, you would see an Arab majority quite soon due to the difference in birth rate. Likely almost immediately if you allowed Palestinians currently outside to return.
In that context, it becomes more clear that the argument is essentially that Israel can't allow Palestinians to have those kinds of rights, because they might do to Jewish Israelis what they themselves are currently doing to Palestinians.
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [18 favorites]
FTFY
But... then what? What is the correct way for Israel to respond to this 9/11-sized moment? The US leaned into vengeance after theirs. Lessons not learned.
I'm certain Hamas expected and wants a savage response; it ensures the perpetuation of their movement. It seems politically useful for Netanyahu, too, which is a horrible thing to even think.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:28 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The days of seeing these threads descend into circular conversations of largely ignorant and uneducated statements are certainly coming to a middle. If you're going to talk about the situation, would it be possible to at least do a little background reading first? Or maybe can we go back to link sharing?
posted by fight or flight at 11:29 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:29 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ok, what I actually wanted to reflect on: immediately after Oct 7 and still, the analogy of 9/11 has been common, which makes sense - I do think that analogy has been helpful to think with. But as I have been obsessively consuming the news these past weeks, something that's been in the back of my mind are the ways that this is rather different than 9/11.
In the previous thread and elsewhere, I've seen the usual assessments of how bad the US media is, and while I'm sympathetic to those sentiments, I've been struck at how relatively nuanced the US media landscape has been these last few weeks, particularly compared to 9/11. Admittedly, I haven't had the motivation to deep dive post-9/11 media, but I recall as a high-school student that this is when I got into Democracy Now and Al Jazeera - they seemed like the only sane source of news at the time. And as will be news to nobody who remembers that time, Americans overwhelmingly supported war, even a protracted one - 77% said they "supported military action, including the use of ground troops, even if it meant thousands of US causalities" according to a Pew Poll.
And yeah, in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, the mainstream message was "stand with Israel." But it didn't take long for that to shift. It was well-argued in the last thread that social media has played a role here, and I agree. But I'd add that more traditional media has also played a role. I have no doubt a lot of the credit goes to efforts to diversity newsrooms in the US to include Arab Americans that eventually happened post-9/11. The bylines and perspectives being included in the NYTimes and NPR, which are by no means lefty platforms, have changed dramatically over the last couple of decades. I have been particularly appreciating the reporting by Daniel Estrin (not Arab, but fluent in Arabic along with Hebrew, and from his reporting it's clear he has deep ties to Palestinians) and Leila Fadel of NPR lately. NPR's On the Media has also had some good episodes lately.
And it's not just that - currently the Opinion column on front page of the NYTimes includes centrist Nicholas Kristof starting out his column saying "let me share why I believe we’ll some day look back at this moment and see a profound moral and policy failure" and later lamenting "I can’t help feeling that while we say that all lives have equal value, President Biden has likewise greatly prioritized Israeli children over Gazan children." The article below that is titled "I'm a Pediatrician in Gaza. Please Save Us from This Horror."
Going back a bit, Tom-rah-rah-Iraq-War-Friedman has written a number of critical columns of Israel that have been more nuanced than I bet most Mefites would assume. His interview with other NYTimes opinion columnists is worth listening to, regardless of what you might think of him (I'll confess I held off until recently, so I get why one would be hesitant). He says, among other things, "President Biden said in Israel that he’s going to offer an unprecedented financial aid package to Israel. And I’ll support that package under one condition: that Israel agrees that it will not build a single more settlement anywhere beyond the settlement blocks. Not one brick, not one nail, not one ounce of cement." Like many here, I don't want any tax dollars supplying Israel with weapons period, so I'm not applauding Friedman here or anything - merely pointing out that US media criticism of Israel is broad right now, and includes centrists. As for other NYTimes opinion columnists, Michelle Goldberg has written thoughtfully about how speech in support of Palestine is being silenced, and pleaded nearly two weeks ago "Nevertheless, as atrocities are piled on atrocities, I hope Jews will attend to what is being threatened in our name. And all Americans should pay attention, given how much our country underwrites Israel’s military." Again, she's a Democrat but not a lefty.
Meanwhile, here is a clip that aired two days ago on MSNBC (FYI, Twitter link - I don't actually watch cable news) - Chris Hayes, who I gather is somewhere between Bernie and Biden, politically speaking (I could be wrong - I only am aware of him when people post clips on social media), makes a very strong case for ceasefire - and if what I just looked up is correct, his time-slot beats out the competitors on CNN and Fox.
And there are signs beyond protests that suggest Biden is way out of line with his own party. A Data for Progress survey published Oct 20 showed that 80% (!!!) of Democrats agreed that the US should push for a ceasefire. Even 56% of Republican voters agreed with this. Even Patrick Gaspard, the current president for the very centrist Center for American Progress think tank Tweeted out a couple of days ago: "People keep telling me that the situation in Gaza is “complicated”. There’s nothing complicated about being able to say killing innocent people is wrong and needs to stop. We said it when it was Hamas. We can say it now that it’s Israel. This is wrong. This needs to stop."
I've shared this not to suggest that I'm terribly hopeful short term (I'm pretty sure my Congresswoman's staffer who I keep talking to is equally tired of me), but I am at least a smidgeon hopeful that something is shifting within this country that will have a material impact in the long-term, if not the medium-term.
posted by coffeecat at 11:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
In the previous thread and elsewhere, I've seen the usual assessments of how bad the US media is, and while I'm sympathetic to those sentiments, I've been struck at how relatively nuanced the US media landscape has been these last few weeks, particularly compared to 9/11. Admittedly, I haven't had the motivation to deep dive post-9/11 media, but I recall as a high-school student that this is when I got into Democracy Now and Al Jazeera - they seemed like the only sane source of news at the time. And as will be news to nobody who remembers that time, Americans overwhelmingly supported war, even a protracted one - 77% said they "supported military action, including the use of ground troops, even if it meant thousands of US causalities" according to a Pew Poll.
And yeah, in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, the mainstream message was "stand with Israel." But it didn't take long for that to shift. It was well-argued in the last thread that social media has played a role here, and I agree. But I'd add that more traditional media has also played a role. I have no doubt a lot of the credit goes to efforts to diversity newsrooms in the US to include Arab Americans that eventually happened post-9/11. The bylines and perspectives being included in the NYTimes and NPR, which are by no means lefty platforms, have changed dramatically over the last couple of decades. I have been particularly appreciating the reporting by Daniel Estrin (not Arab, but fluent in Arabic along with Hebrew, and from his reporting it's clear he has deep ties to Palestinians) and Leila Fadel of NPR lately. NPR's On the Media has also had some good episodes lately.
And it's not just that - currently the Opinion column on front page of the NYTimes includes centrist Nicholas Kristof starting out his column saying "let me share why I believe we’ll some day look back at this moment and see a profound moral and policy failure" and later lamenting "I can’t help feeling that while we say that all lives have equal value, President Biden has likewise greatly prioritized Israeli children over Gazan children." The article below that is titled "I'm a Pediatrician in Gaza. Please Save Us from This Horror."
Going back a bit, Tom-rah-rah-Iraq-War-Friedman has written a number of critical columns of Israel that have been more nuanced than I bet most Mefites would assume. His interview with other NYTimes opinion columnists is worth listening to, regardless of what you might think of him (I'll confess I held off until recently, so I get why one would be hesitant). He says, among other things, "President Biden said in Israel that he’s going to offer an unprecedented financial aid package to Israel. And I’ll support that package under one condition: that Israel agrees that it will not build a single more settlement anywhere beyond the settlement blocks. Not one brick, not one nail, not one ounce of cement." Like many here, I don't want any tax dollars supplying Israel with weapons period, so I'm not applauding Friedman here or anything - merely pointing out that US media criticism of Israel is broad right now, and includes centrists. As for other NYTimes opinion columnists, Michelle Goldberg has written thoughtfully about how speech in support of Palestine is being silenced, and pleaded nearly two weeks ago "Nevertheless, as atrocities are piled on atrocities, I hope Jews will attend to what is being threatened in our name. And all Americans should pay attention, given how much our country underwrites Israel’s military." Again, she's a Democrat but not a lefty.
Meanwhile, here is a clip that aired two days ago on MSNBC (FYI, Twitter link - I don't actually watch cable news) - Chris Hayes, who I gather is somewhere between Bernie and Biden, politically speaking (I could be wrong - I only am aware of him when people post clips on social media), makes a very strong case for ceasefire - and if what I just looked up is correct, his time-slot beats out the competitors on CNN and Fox.
And there are signs beyond protests that suggest Biden is way out of line with his own party. A Data for Progress survey published Oct 20 showed that 80% (!!!) of Democrats agreed that the US should push for a ceasefire. Even 56% of Republican voters agreed with this. Even Patrick Gaspard, the current president for the very centrist Center for American Progress think tank Tweeted out a couple of days ago: "People keep telling me that the situation in Gaza is “complicated”. There’s nothing complicated about being able to say killing innocent people is wrong and needs to stop. We said it when it was Hamas. We can say it now that it’s Israel. This is wrong. This needs to stop."
I've shared this not to suggest that I'm terribly hopeful short term (I'm pretty sure my Congresswoman's staffer who I keep talking to is equally tired of me), but I am at least a smidgeon hopeful that something is shifting within this country that will have a material impact in the long-term, if not the medium-term.
posted by coffeecat at 11:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Arguments are irrelevant. I think what people are upset about is Israel’s continued horrific treatment of Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Arguments are irrelevant. I think what people are upset about is Israel’s continued horrific treatment of Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me too. Suggest a viable solution.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:42 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 11:42 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do in fact believe in landback. I believe the indigenous peoples existing within and despite colonized territory should have a right to return to control of their land, national self determination, and reparations, and I believe that includes the end of the United States as such. In Palestine this state of affairs is much more clear, because the colonizer government is still in the height of its extermination phase, and is not doing a very good job of hiding their intentions. The Nation-State Bill, for example, made it abundantly clear that my understanding of Israel and Israel's understanding of Israel are not too far off. Our greatest point of difference is that I do not believe that Israel's claims that it represents and protects the Jewish people is legitimate or borne out by the facts.
As for providing a safe haven for Jews, I support this aim, and I think it is the responsibility of all nations. Zionism, the belief that Jews can only be safe by aligning with western imperialism and exterminating Arabs, is nonsense, as recent events have shown. You can't reasonably claim that you mean to keep anyone safe while drafting them into a race war.
posted by jy4m at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
As for providing a safe haven for Jews, I support this aim, and I think it is the responsibility of all nations. Zionism, the belief that Jews can only be safe by aligning with western imperialism and exterminating Arabs, is nonsense, as recent events have shown. You can't reasonably claim that you mean to keep anyone safe while drafting them into a race war.
posted by jy4m at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Me too. Suggest a viable solution.
It's doubtful that a Nobel Peace Prize will be won in this thread, but I guess we can keep trying. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's doubtful that a Nobel Peace Prize will be won in this thread, but I guess we can keep trying. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I believe that includes the end of the United States as such
I don't agree with either your assessment of the current situation, your interpretation of history, or your proposed solutions, but I do appreciate your consistency.
posted by gwint at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't agree with either your assessment of the current situation, your interpretation of history, or your proposed solutions, but I do appreciate your consistency.
posted by gwint at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is almost no true private ownership of land in Israel currently, as has been stated above. Israel/Palestine/Canaan has the highest density of religious and historical significance per square foot of any land on earth. A comprehensive walking tour of Israel/Palestine could probably cover ten square feet per hour. Under the current state of affairs, most of the holy sites in Israel/Palestine are inaccessible to some group of people or other who consider them religiously significant.
My personal, unironically preferred solution is that nobody should live there. The whole land should be declared a World Heritage Site and given over to archaeologists and historians, with holy sites preserved and open to people of all faiths who wish to visit. The Nobel Peace Prize Committee unfortunately continues to ignore my letters on the subject.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
My personal, unironically preferred solution is that nobody should live there. The whole land should be declared a World Heritage Site and given over to archaeologists and historians, with holy sites preserved and open to people of all faiths who wish to visit. The Nobel Peace Prize Committee unfortunately continues to ignore my letters on the subject.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Atlantic has an article up on what the author terms
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
posted by interogative mood at 12:32 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
posted by interogative mood at 12:32 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Multiple comments deleted. Deleted a major derail with way too much arguing with other users, and lots of speculation not based in fact. Remember to comment in good faith here, and keep things on track and focused on what this FPP was intended for.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
I think many of us have considered this objection (Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land and therefore can't be colonizers) and rejected it because the claim that, for example, European Jews are indigenous to the area is very clearly incredibly weak compared to the claim the Palestinians have, to put it generously.
posted by ssg at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think many of us have considered this objection (Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land and therefore can't be colonizers) and rejected it because the claim that, for example, European Jews are indigenous to the area is very clearly incredibly weak compared to the claim the Palestinians have, to put it generously.
posted by ssg at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
But even granting that point, European Jews are not a majority of the population of Israel are they?
posted by Justinian at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
I think the more relevant question is not how you should respond, but rather how extant governments and populations will respond. And the answer is that they'd respond exactly like Israel is doing if not worse. I am confident that if America were in a similar situation it would respond by unrestrained attacks leading to total eradication of any town rockets were launched from and FOX et al would turn the word "genocide" into a badge of honor. Various Republican House members would wear literal badges that say "PRO-GENOCIDE".
So yeah, I'm critical of Israel but I don't think the government there is responding with any greater violence than any other government and less than many/most would use. It doesn't make what Israel is doing right, or the thing they should be doing, but everyone else would do the same or worse.
But we're still left with the question of what happens next. I don't know what the end is going to be, and I suspect Netanyahu doesn't know either.
When you game it out, there are only a few likely outcomes:
1 - At some point short of a full invasion of Gaza, Israel decides it's done enough and pulls back enacting if not a cease fire at least an end to the active invasion. Things return to the prior status quo only with the Palestinian people even poorer, filled with justifiable hatred for Israel, and Hamas strutting around saying they won. A bad out come for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, a good outcome for Hamas.
2 - Israel continues to push into Gaza and does not stop. Most Palestinians are evicted, possibly broken up and put into small isolated pockets in the West Bank, possibly deported to a refugee camp if Israel can manage it. Gaza becomes part of Israel, Hamas loses its Israeli base of operations, and Israel stops being attacked by random rockets. A good outcome for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, and a bad outcome for Hamas.
3 - Israel continues the policy of limited invasion, lots of bombs and missiles, and maximal blockade. Eventually most Palestinians who cannot flee Gaza die from thirst or starvation. Hamas holds on but is itself eventually starved out, and Israel claims ownership of the graveyard. Good for Israel, terrible for the Palestinians, bad for Hamas.
I don't really see any other major paths this can take.
I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce. Ultimately Hamas views the people of Gaza as expendable resources and it will spend the lives of those people in pursuit of its goal.
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me. Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair. I don't think Netanyahu is going to take option 1.
posted by sotonohito at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think the more relevant question is not how you should respond, but rather how extant governments and populations will respond. And the answer is that they'd respond exactly like Israel is doing if not worse. I am confident that if America were in a similar situation it would respond by unrestrained attacks leading to total eradication of any town rockets were launched from and FOX et al would turn the word "genocide" into a badge of honor. Various Republican House members would wear literal badges that say "PRO-GENOCIDE".
So yeah, I'm critical of Israel but I don't think the government there is responding with any greater violence than any other government and less than many/most would use. It doesn't make what Israel is doing right, or the thing they should be doing, but everyone else would do the same or worse.
But we're still left with the question of what happens next. I don't know what the end is going to be, and I suspect Netanyahu doesn't know either.
When you game it out, there are only a few likely outcomes:
1 - At some point short of a full invasion of Gaza, Israel decides it's done enough and pulls back enacting if not a cease fire at least an end to the active invasion. Things return to the prior status quo only with the Palestinian people even poorer, filled with justifiable hatred for Israel, and Hamas strutting around saying they won. A bad out come for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, a good outcome for Hamas.
2 - Israel continues to push into Gaza and does not stop. Most Palestinians are evicted, possibly broken up and put into small isolated pockets in the West Bank, possibly deported to a refugee camp if Israel can manage it. Gaza becomes part of Israel, Hamas loses its Israeli base of operations, and Israel stops being attacked by random rockets. A good outcome for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, and a bad outcome for Hamas.
3 - Israel continues the policy of limited invasion, lots of bombs and missiles, and maximal blockade. Eventually most Palestinians who cannot flee Gaza die from thirst or starvation. Hamas holds on but is itself eventually starved out, and Israel claims ownership of the graveyard. Good for Israel, terrible for the Palestinians, bad for Hamas.
I don't really see any other major paths this can take.
I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce. Ultimately Hamas views the people of Gaza as expendable resources and it will spend the lives of those people in pursuit of its goal.
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me. Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair. I don't think Netanyahu is going to take option 1.
posted by sotonohito at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
interogative mood: The Atlantic has an article up on what the author terms The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
The author makes useful points, but I got stuck on this one:
Like Israel, my country of Canada is a liberal democracy founded by people from Europe that has been a refuge and place of opportunity for people from all over the world, with education, social, healthcare and legal systems that aren't perfect but are miles better than the alternatives offered by communism, fascism, military dictatorship and the rest. It's a great place to live!
...with one giant asterisk that applies to one group of people who haven't benefited from those education, social, healthcare and legal systems but have instead suffered from them, who have been pushed into ever-smaller areas, who have seen their rights denied and their food sources destroyed when it suited us colonizers.
As I said in the previous discussion, in many ways - most ways - my country of Canada has been worse than Israel. What Canada has done is much closer to any definition of genocide than what Israel has done.
But there are two perspectives on opposite extremes that I'm never asked to consider when it comes to Canada but am regularly asked to consider when it comes to Israel:
- Canada shouldn't exist.
- We should take into account the reasons for the horrible things Canada has done.
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
The author makes useful points, but I got stuck on this one:
According to the decolonizers, Israel is and always has been an illegitimate freak-state because it was fostered by the British empire and because some of its founders were European-born Jews.I don't see Israel as a freak settler-colonial state, I see it as a perfectly normal settler-colonial state. I live in a settler-colonial state; probably most people on Metafilter do.
Like Israel, my country of Canada is a liberal democracy founded by people from Europe that has been a refuge and place of opportunity for people from all over the world, with education, social, healthcare and legal systems that aren't perfect but are miles better than the alternatives offered by communism, fascism, military dictatorship and the rest. It's a great place to live!
...with one giant asterisk that applies to one group of people who haven't benefited from those education, social, healthcare and legal systems but have instead suffered from them, who have been pushed into ever-smaller areas, who have seen their rights denied and their food sources destroyed when it suited us colonizers.
As I said in the previous discussion, in many ways - most ways - my country of Canada has been worse than Israel. What Canada has done is much closer to any definition of genocide than what Israel has done.
But there are two perspectives on opposite extremes that I'm never asked to consider when it comes to Canada but am regularly asked to consider when it comes to Israel:
- Canada shouldn't exist.
- We should take into account the reasons for the horrible things Canada has done.
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
even granting that point, European Jews are not a majority of the population of Israel are they?
A majority of the Jewish population of Israel has recent origins somewhere other than the territory which is currently Israel; most recent estimates from 2019 are that 31.8% of the Jewish population of Israel are "Ashkenazi" and 12.4% are "Soviet" (originating from the former USSR and thus likely also Ashkenazi although counted separately).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
A majority of the Jewish population of Israel has recent origins somewhere other than the territory which is currently Israel; most recent estimates from 2019 are that 31.8% of the Jewish population of Israel are "Ashkenazi" and 12.4% are "Soviet" (originating from the former USSR and thus likely also Ashkenazi although counted separately).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And most of the remainder are from North Africa, Ethiopia, Iraq, Iran and so on, as the Jewish population of Palestine pre-Zionism was quite small.
posted by ssg at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by ssg at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023
It gets more complicated because people born in Israel /Palestine might have recent ancestors of different recent geographic origins. This holds for both Arabs and Jews. The late Ottoman and British mandate era saw a lot of people moving around. Palestine wasn’t a distinct region with a fixed border until the Palestine Mandate. It was a geographic region like we might say “Mid Atlantic” in the US. That isn’t to say there isn’t a modern Palestinian identity and culture with roots going back for a long time and then boosted by recent shared historical experiences.
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you'd prefer, this interview with Rashid Khalidi (current editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies and professor at Columbia), also makes a case against framing this conflict as colonial settlers vs. indigenous:
What do you make of the conversation within the American left — the elected left, the activist left, the left media? Is there history the left is missing or leaving out?
Well, that’s a hard question for me to answer because all I am directly in contact with are student activists. I think that young people are in the process of educating themselves, and they’re not yet fully educated, or politically mature in their views.
For example, an argument that I see among some student activists is that all Israelis are settlers, and therefore there are no civilians. You can’t say that if you have any respect for international humanitarian law. Israel’s being the result of a settler colonial process does not mean that every Israeli grandmother and every Israeli baby is a settler and therefore not a civilian. Technically, in some sense, we Americans are all settlers, but that does not mean that a Native American liberation movement would be justified in killing white American settler babies or white American settler grandmothers. Yes, people in the settlements in the Occupied Territories who are armed have to be seen as combatants. The ones who are unarmed are not combatants. That’s an example of the kind of distinction people have to develop.
It's a really worthwhile interview in full, and he's certainly not denying the settler-colonial origins of Israel - but I agree with those saying that the language used by some in this thread and the previous thread is unhelpful.
posted by coffeecat at 1:31 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
What do you make of the conversation within the American left — the elected left, the activist left, the left media? Is there history the left is missing or leaving out?
Well, that’s a hard question for me to answer because all I am directly in contact with are student activists. I think that young people are in the process of educating themselves, and they’re not yet fully educated, or politically mature in their views.
For example, an argument that I see among some student activists is that all Israelis are settlers, and therefore there are no civilians. You can’t say that if you have any respect for international humanitarian law. Israel’s being the result of a settler colonial process does not mean that every Israeli grandmother and every Israeli baby is a settler and therefore not a civilian. Technically, in some sense, we Americans are all settlers, but that does not mean that a Native American liberation movement would be justified in killing white American settler babies or white American settler grandmothers. Yes, people in the settlements in the Occupied Territories who are armed have to be seen as combatants. The ones who are unarmed are not combatants. That’s an example of the kind of distinction people have to develop.
It's a really worthwhile interview in full, and he's certainly not denying the settler-colonial origins of Israel - but I agree with those saying that the language used by some in this thread and the previous thread is unhelpful.
posted by coffeecat at 1:31 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
The population of the region was about 300,000 in 1850. About 10% of that population was Jewish in 1850.
posted by interogative mood at 1:35 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 1:35 PM on October 29, 2023
If you'd prefer, this interview with Rashid Khalidi (current editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies and professor at Columbia), also makes a case against framing this conflict as colonial settlers vs. indigenous:
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
posted by ssg at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
posted by ssg at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
ssg Comrade, all that might have been relevant back in 1946. Today? Not so much. I happen to agree that Israel was founded in a colonial manner, but it doesn't matter except in a rather academic moral history sort of way.
Israel exists. And most, 75%, of the people living there to day were born there.
While truth matters, and history is important, I'd argue that here and now the issue of Israel's founding is more or less irrelevant, and from a practical standpoint it has no bearing whatsoever on what any of the parties involved are going to do. The Jewish population of Israel isn't going to wake up tomorrow and say "huh, we were founded by colonizers, welp guess I'd better pack my bags and see if I can get citizenship somewhere else since it's clearly wrong for me to be here!"
So what's your point?
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel exists. And most, 75%, of the people living there to day were born there.
While truth matters, and history is important, I'd argue that here and now the issue of Israel's founding is more or less irrelevant, and from a practical standpoint it has no bearing whatsoever on what any of the parties involved are going to do. The Jewish population of Israel isn't going to wake up tomorrow and say "huh, we were founded by colonizers, welp guess I'd better pack my bags and see if I can get citizenship somewhere else since it's clearly wrong for me to be here!"
So what's your point?
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me.
Israel will establish safe zones in Gaza following their initial invasion. They will begin to direct Palestinians to those areas as they push further into Gaza. They will adopt a standard counter insurgency plan of clear and hold. There will be filtration operations (a horrible thing) to screen refugees to try to identify potential Hamas members with dentition centers established for those individuals. Following this Israel will try to establish some kind of local Palestinian government to govern the place and negotiate a “peace deal”. This government will get a ton of aid in order to overcome the fact that it will be seen as illegitimate in the eyes of much of the population. It is the model the Russians used in Chechnya. Lots of reconstruction and lots of money handed out to a local government that will maintain order through show projects and lots of corruption.
posted by interogative mood at 1:43 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel will establish safe zones in Gaza following their initial invasion. They will begin to direct Palestinians to those areas as they push further into Gaza. They will adopt a standard counter insurgency plan of clear and hold. There will be filtration operations (a horrible thing) to screen refugees to try to identify potential Hamas members with dentition centers established for those individuals. Following this Israel will try to establish some kind of local Palestinian government to govern the place and negotiate a “peace deal”. This government will get a ton of aid in order to overcome the fact that it will be seen as illegitimate in the eyes of much of the population. It is the model the Russians used in Chechnya. Lots of reconstruction and lots of money handed out to a local government that will maintain order through show projects and lots of corruption.
posted by interogative mood at 1:43 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Comrade, all that might have been relevant back in 1946. Today? Not so much.
Israel continues to use force to push Palestinians out of their homes and off their land in order to make way for what are explicitly called settlers. This is not an academic question, this is settler colonialism happening today in a concrete, explicit manner.
posted by ssg at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
Israel continues to use force to push Palestinians out of their homes and off their land in order to make way for what are explicitly called settlers. This is not an academic question, this is settler colonialism happening today in a concrete, explicit manner.
posted by ssg at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land. That's not a pro- or anti- Palestinian statement per se, just a comprehension of the difficulty of the present situation.
To quote from the interview again:
A common Zionist framing is that pro-Palestinian activism or advocacy denies the right of the State of Israel to exist and that slogans like “from the river to the sea,” are themselves genocidal. How do you read this?
There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist. There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that there’s such a thing as Israeli peoplehood, which there manifestly, obviously is. Israelis are a people. A lot of Palestinians don’t realize that many settler colonial projects have created peoples. We live in a settler colonial project in the United States. Anybody who’s not part of the original indigenous population is a settler. But as Mahmood Mamdani’s book Neither Settler nor Native asks, when do the settlers become natives? It’s a thorny question politically, because even if you accept that there’s an Israeli people, and if you say peoples have the right to self-determination, this is coming on top of a process of denial of Palestinian identity and national rights, dispossession, expulsion, and ethnic cleansing. All of those things have to be understood and addressed before you’re going to be able to figure out how these two peoples come to terms.
What I’ve just said is not something you can fit into a slogan or the kind of heated propagandistic claims that you just mentioned. I personally have no problem with people seeing the Land of Israel stretching from the river to the sea or wherever else they think it may stretch. The question is, what political and other consequences flow from that? If that means absolute, exclusive rights for one people and the oppression of another people, then obviously that’s not acceptable. And the same would be true of Palestine. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” What does that mean? Well, if it means the Palestinians are no longer oppressed, but don’t oppress Israelis, I would hope that would not be a problem. But, again, different Palestinians have different views on this. And I think that the heightened repression and offensive actions taken by Israeli governments over many years have driven Palestinians from where they were in the Oslo period, when they were willing to accept a manifestly unjust two-state solution, as long as it ended up involving real Palestinian sovereignty and statehood, to wherever they are today.
posted by coffeecat at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land. That's not a pro- or anti- Palestinian statement per se, just a comprehension of the difficulty of the present situation.
To quote from the interview again:
A common Zionist framing is that pro-Palestinian activism or advocacy denies the right of the State of Israel to exist and that slogans like “from the river to the sea,” are themselves genocidal. How do you read this?
There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist. There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that there’s such a thing as Israeli peoplehood, which there manifestly, obviously is. Israelis are a people. A lot of Palestinians don’t realize that many settler colonial projects have created peoples. We live in a settler colonial project in the United States. Anybody who’s not part of the original indigenous population is a settler. But as Mahmood Mamdani’s book Neither Settler nor Native asks, when do the settlers become natives? It’s a thorny question politically, because even if you accept that there’s an Israeli people, and if you say peoples have the right to self-determination, this is coming on top of a process of denial of Palestinian identity and national rights, dispossession, expulsion, and ethnic cleansing. All of those things have to be understood and addressed before you’re going to be able to figure out how these two peoples come to terms.
What I’ve just said is not something you can fit into a slogan or the kind of heated propagandistic claims that you just mentioned. I personally have no problem with people seeing the Land of Israel stretching from the river to the sea or wherever else they think it may stretch. The question is, what political and other consequences flow from that? If that means absolute, exclusive rights for one people and the oppression of another people, then obviously that’s not acceptable. And the same would be true of Palestine. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” What does that mean? Well, if it means the Palestinians are no longer oppressed, but don’t oppress Israelis, I would hope that would not be a problem. But, again, different Palestinians have different views on this. And I think that the heightened repression and offensive actions taken by Israeli governments over many years have driven Palestinians from where they were in the Oslo period, when they were willing to accept a manifestly unjust two-state solution, as long as it ended up involving real Palestinian sovereignty and statehood, to wherever they are today.
posted by coffeecat at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
sotonohito: I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce.
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy, and react in flexible ways to short-term conditions. As you draw out scenarios, you might as well assume that Hamas will be at least as flexible as the current Israeli government.
...which, okay, fine, isn't very.
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2023
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy, and react in flexible ways to short-term conditions. As you draw out scenarios, you might as well assume that Hamas will be at least as flexible as the current Israeli government.
...which, okay, fine, isn't very.
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2023
"Adam Abusalah, a 22-year-old Palestinian-American activist from Dearborn, was born and raised in this country. “All my siblings are educated, and they work, and we contributed – we contribute to the success of this society. But right now I feel like my country hates me,” Abusalah said.
“I feel like I’m less American than others, but in reality, I’m not. And that’s not just how I feel: that’s how Palestinians all across the country feel.”
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
“I feel like I’m less American than others, but in reality, I’m not. And that’s not just how I feel: that’s how Palestinians all across the country feel.”
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy,
Can you name 10. I would like to reiterate what others set up thread is that bringing in stream of consciousness with good plausible moral arguments with no backup information is really hard to follow and can seem disingenuous I don't believe that's your case clawsoon.
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on October 29, 2023
Can you name 10. I would like to reiterate what others set up thread is that bringing in stream of consciousness with good plausible moral arguments with no backup information is really hard to follow and can seem disingenuous I don't believe that's your case clawsoon.
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on October 29, 2023
In yet more depressing news in the Muslim region of Dagestan in Russia an antisemitic lynch mob has stormed the airport looking for Jews and those with Israeli passports.
In positive news Israel turned another one of the water lines into Gaza back on.
posted by interogative mood at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
In positive news Israel turned another one of the water lines into Gaza back on.
posted by interogative mood at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
No one is making it directly, certainly, but folks are rejecting the direct implications of them not being military targets. Which is to say, if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them, including by attacking Hamas where they are based. That's separate from any individual tactic being used by Israel which too often involves collective punishment.
The line between "an Israeli military campaign in Gaza is illegitimate" and "the specific tactics used by Israel in their campaign are illegitimate" is often being blurred and people are jumping back and forth between them depending on the comment.
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
No one is making it directly, certainly, but folks are rejecting the direct implications of them not being military targets. Which is to say, if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them, including by attacking Hamas where they are based. That's separate from any individual tactic being used by Israel which too often involves collective punishment.
The line between "an Israeli military campaign in Gaza is illegitimate" and "the specific tactics used by Israel in their campaign are illegitimate" is often being blurred and people are jumping back and forth between them depending on the comment.
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
In yet more depressing news in the Muslim region of Dagestan in Russia an antisemitic lynch mob has stormed the airport looking for Jews and those with Israeli passports.
This is appalling, and shouldn't be happening; meanwhile, an anti-Arab lynch mob stormed the student dormitories of Netanya College in Israel, seeking to kill Arab students, and armed gangs of violent settlers are roving the West Bank and engaging in murder and forcing Palestinians off their land, which is also appalling and shouldn't be happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is appalling, and shouldn't be happening; meanwhile, an anti-Arab lynch mob stormed the student dormitories of Netanya College in Israel, seeking to kill Arab students, and armed gangs of violent settlers are roving the West Bank and engaging in murder and forcing Palestinians off their land, which is also appalling and shouldn't be happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair
sotonohito, I don’t want to add to your despair, but I don’t see outcomes where most of the Palestinians leave Gaza as ‘good’ outcomes for Israel. They would leave it with a stain on its morality that it would likely never redeem. But I have no good Option 4. I really hope someone comes up with one.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
sotonohito, I don’t want to add to your despair, but I don’t see outcomes where most of the Palestinians leave Gaza as ‘good’ outcomes for Israel. They would leave it with a stain on its morality that it would likely never redeem. But I have no good Option 4. I really hope someone comes up with one.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy,
Can you name 10.
The PLO? Also the IRA and ANC. Violent militant movements do sign peace agreements and become relatively peaceful political parties, it happens.
if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them,
Even if Hamas was only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
This bumps up against the difference between jus in bello (laws of what you can do in war) and jus ad bellum (laws of when you can wage war at all). You can adhere to one while ignoring the other in either direction. Discussions about the morality of war tend to have those end up leaking into each other; whether you can really separate them out as a matter of morality, I don't know.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can you name 10.
The PLO? Also the IRA and ANC. Violent militant movements do sign peace agreements and become relatively peaceful political parties, it happens.
if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them,
Even if Hamas was only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
This bumps up against the difference between jus in bello (laws of what you can do in war) and jus ad bellum (laws of when you can wage war at all). You can adhere to one while ignoring the other in either direction. Discussions about the morality of war tend to have those end up leaking into each other; whether you can really separate them out as a matter of morality, I don't know.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even if Hamas was "fighting fair" by only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
Well its a lot more complicated ethically in that situation given the civilian toll of the campaign in Gaza. But we don't have to get into it because Hamas is clearly not engaging in legitimate armed resistance by their actions. Which is good because boy would that be a morass. (the discussion; the situation is clearly already a morass)
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well its a lot more complicated ethically in that situation given the civilian toll of the campaign in Gaza. But we don't have to get into it because Hamas is clearly not engaging in legitimate armed resistance by their actions. Which is good because boy would that be a morass. (the discussion; the situation is clearly already a morass)
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can you name 10
Let's see... the IRA, the PLO, the Bolsheviks, the Irgun, both the Contras and Sandinistas, the WSPU, the ETA, FARC, the Black Panthers, the ANC...
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings, which basically translates to "we should argue a lot about what to do." Even the Tamil Tigers, which were tightly controlled for their entire existence by the same man, had changes in their approach over time. (Often for the worse, but, still, changes.)
Thinking that it's impossible for them to evolve is in some ways to deny that they're humans with the full range of human abilities, and to put them back into the category of lab rats who only understand "pain" or "no pain".
posted by clawsoon at 2:53 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Let's see... the IRA, the PLO, the Bolsheviks, the Irgun, both the Contras and Sandinistas, the WSPU, the ETA, FARC, the Black Panthers, the ANC...
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings, which basically translates to "we should argue a lot about what to do." Even the Tamil Tigers, which were tightly controlled for their entire existence by the same man, had changes in their approach over time. (Often for the worse, but, still, changes.)
Thinking that it's impossible for them to evolve is in some ways to deny that they're humans with the full range of human abilities, and to put them back into the category of lab rats who only understand "pain" or "no pain".
posted by clawsoon at 2:53 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings
yup.
perhaps the Republican Party could learn something from this.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on October 29, 2023
yup.
perhaps the Republican Party could learn something from this.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on October 29, 2023
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land.
I think there's an important point here, which is that many, many people believe that Israel is a settler-colonialist state (and not just in the West Bank) and also do not believe that everyone whose ancestors immigrated to Israel in the last 150 years should just pack up and leave. This is what Khalidi is arguing, but it is also a pretty commonly held belief. Unfortunately, many people argue as if these are one and the same thing and that tends to prevent any kind of real discussion.
I also believe my home, Canada, is a settler-colonialist state (though in a quite different way than Israel is), but I'm not packing my bags to move to Germany just because that's where my grandparents came from.
posted by ssg at 3:03 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there's an important point here, which is that many, many people believe that Israel is a settler-colonialist state (and not just in the West Bank) and also do not believe that everyone whose ancestors immigrated to Israel in the last 150 years should just pack up and leave. This is what Khalidi is arguing, but it is also a pretty commonly held belief. Unfortunately, many people argue as if these are one and the same thing and that tends to prevent any kind of real discussion.
I also believe my home, Canada, is a settler-colonialist state (though in a quite different way than Israel is), but I'm not packing my bags to move to Germany just because that's where my grandparents came from.
posted by ssg at 3:03 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Gaza hospital braces for bombs: "...the hospital received two phone calls 'with a clear and direct threat' from Israeli authorities instructing them to evacuate the hospital. 'They mentioned that this area is going to be a military zone, that there will be clashes and the area will be dangerous and that we have to evacuate quickly,' said Bassam Mourad, director of Al-Quds Hospital."
Inside Al-Quds Hospital after nearby 'rocket attack': "The Palestinian Red Crescent Society has posted on X (formerly known as Twitter), footage it says shows the inside of the Al-Quds Hospital in northern Gaza, after what it said was a nearby rocket attack."
Al Jazeera is saying "20m from the hospital".
Is this setting up for some kind of "we warned you, we really really warned you, what happens to you next is your fault" situation?
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Inside Al-Quds Hospital after nearby 'rocket attack': "The Palestinian Red Crescent Society has posted on X (formerly known as Twitter), footage it says shows the inside of the Al-Quds Hospital in northern Gaza, after what it said was a nearby rocket attack."
Al Jazeera is saying "20m from the hospital".
Is this setting up for some kind of "we warned you, we really really warned you, what happens to you next is your fault" situation?
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
If armed settlers are military combatants, and I think the general intent and motivations behind the settlers project makes clear that they are intended to be aggressive and provocation..... That makes the non armed settlers, what exactly? Human shields? Complicit allies? I'm not trying to be snarky there, it seems like a really important question. Trespassers? Criminal accessories and partners? Still completely wrong and taking advantage of the political system to do crimes?
I've suggested some peace plans in the other thread. I'm particularly pleased by Potlucks for Peace, where Israeli citizens invade Gaza with nothing but love, food, medical care, and a willingness to be human shields against right wing bombs. Tear down that wall, throw open the border, reject the cycle of violence. Make friends. Love people like almost all religions say to do.
The Israeli leadership strategy for the past 15 years at least is dedicated to 'mowing the Hamas grass', IE, maintaining simmering warfare and violence and hate. I think the most heavily armed group has to do a little bit more of turning swords to plowshares. Do whatever it takes to commit to real peace. Stop provocations, turn on the freaking power and water, be dedicated to building bridges and communication. Accept the risks of letting people who are different into your society. It might change the society from your Dream Goals, but sticking to those seems to lead to war. Everyone here is human, and reacting very human. Stop the pressure, spend just as much on literal defense, but switch the entire offense budget to peace plans. Plant flowers instead of buying more destructive lawnmowers.
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes. Someone who doesn't care about the religions, the history, the past, just about ending human suffering here, now, immediately. Yes, this will take armed troops. Yes, they will be extremely unpopular for a while. But attacks from anybody against anyone else are treated equally. They are illegal and will be policed as such. Meanwhile the carrot is that everyone gets food, power, good shelter, no missile attacks, and enough money at least to live with. It will at least stop throwing gas on the fire long enough to stop the cycle of murderous tragedy. If X # of groups seem incapable of not killing each other, there's at least some arguments for someone making them stop, with as much impartial justice and mercy and compassion as possible.
And yes, I think there's some value to the concept of making Jerusalem and other trouble areas entirely open cities. It's somewhat tongue in cheek, but boy am I amused by the concept of upsetting everyone possible at once. Sure, it's way less... Sane or viable than civilians protecting civilians, or governments giving up expansionists and repressive goals, but hey, nobody wins so nobody has to die.
I don't really understand why bigotry works... I'm always of the opinion that trying to forge peace should work. But if civilians have a zero tolerance policy for violence against other civilians, there's no need for endless violence, right? Idealistic dreams, I know.
posted by Jacen at 3:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've suggested some peace plans in the other thread. I'm particularly pleased by Potlucks for Peace, where Israeli citizens invade Gaza with nothing but love, food, medical care, and a willingness to be human shields against right wing bombs. Tear down that wall, throw open the border, reject the cycle of violence. Make friends. Love people like almost all religions say to do.
The Israeli leadership strategy for the past 15 years at least is dedicated to 'mowing the Hamas grass', IE, maintaining simmering warfare and violence and hate. I think the most heavily armed group has to do a little bit more of turning swords to plowshares. Do whatever it takes to commit to real peace. Stop provocations, turn on the freaking power and water, be dedicated to building bridges and communication. Accept the risks of letting people who are different into your society. It might change the society from your Dream Goals, but sticking to those seems to lead to war. Everyone here is human, and reacting very human. Stop the pressure, spend just as much on literal defense, but switch the entire offense budget to peace plans. Plant flowers instead of buying more destructive lawnmowers.
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes. Someone who doesn't care about the religions, the history, the past, just about ending human suffering here, now, immediately. Yes, this will take armed troops. Yes, they will be extremely unpopular for a while. But attacks from anybody against anyone else are treated equally. They are illegal and will be policed as such. Meanwhile the carrot is that everyone gets food, power, good shelter, no missile attacks, and enough money at least to live with. It will at least stop throwing gas on the fire long enough to stop the cycle of murderous tragedy. If X # of groups seem incapable of not killing each other, there's at least some arguments for someone making them stop, with as much impartial justice and mercy and compassion as possible.
And yes, I think there's some value to the concept of making Jerusalem and other trouble areas entirely open cities. It's somewhat tongue in cheek, but boy am I amused by the concept of upsetting everyone possible at once. Sure, it's way less... Sane or viable than civilians protecting civilians, or governments giving up expansionists and repressive goals, but hey, nobody wins so nobody has to die.
I don't really understand why bigotry works... I'm always of the opinion that trying to forge peace should work. But if civilians have a zero tolerance policy for violence against other civilians, there's no need for endless violence, right? Idealistic dreams, I know.
posted by Jacen at 3:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes.
That guy was supposed to be Muhammad Dahlan: "The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power."
If you mean, why doesn't someone else occupy Gaza... well, Gaza has been occupied before. Hamas grew up under Israeli occupation. It's hard to see another occupation- by anyone- working out this time.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2023
That guy was supposed to be Muhammad Dahlan: "The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power."
If you mean, why doesn't someone else occupy Gaza... well, Gaza has been occupied before. Hamas grew up under Israeli occupation. It's hard to see another occupation- by anyone- working out this time.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2023
Konstantin at Inside Russia - [attempted]JEWISH POGROMS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023
Same like with Prigozhin - the State organs can suppress and maintain order, but once there is a critical mass they just melt away. This is blowback.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same like with Prigozhin - the State organs can suppress and maintain order, but once there is a critical mass they just melt away. This is blowback.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
With Russia these days we don’t know if this is blowback or state sanctioned violence as a warning to Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 4:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 4:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
we don’t know if this is blowback or state sanctioned violence
And meanwhile what's happening in the West Bank looks every bit like state-sanctioned violence and ethnic cleansing, since the settlers killing Palestinians and expelling them from their villages are doing so under the protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
And meanwhile what's happening in the West Bank looks every bit like state-sanctioned violence and ethnic cleansing, since the settlers killing Palestinians and expelling them from their villages are doing so under the protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
ssg The thing is, you don't need to get into the fraught history thing to oppose the settlers. They're clearly colonizers and even people who believe Israel was 100% legitimately founded and in no way a colonial project should be no issues objecting to the modern settlers. They're literally invading homes, evicting the owners, threatening to murder them, and taking the land. It doesn't much matter what a person thinks of Israel's history to see that's wrong.
So what I'm asking is: what practical reason do you have for digging into the history? You can't make Israel vanish in a puff of logic if you prove (to whoever's satisfaction) that Israel was founded illegitimately, or that it was a colonial project, or whatever.
Israel exists. Israeli people exist in Israel. That's the reality we have to deal with right now, should have beens don't matter.
The Litany of Gendlin applies here:
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
interogative mood I will note that in most other contexts people tend to describe Russia's 1996 and 1999 actions in Chechnya as a human rights catastrophe verging on genocide if not actually genocide. Virtually every single person who passed through a Russian filtration point was tortured and/or raped.
I will concede it's a different model, but I can't say I think it's better than 2 or 3.
posted by sotonohito at 4:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
So what I'm asking is: what practical reason do you have for digging into the history? You can't make Israel vanish in a puff of logic if you prove (to whoever's satisfaction) that Israel was founded illegitimately, or that it was a colonial project, or whatever.
Israel exists. Israeli people exist in Israel. That's the reality we have to deal with right now, should have beens don't matter.
The Litany of Gendlin applies here:
What is true is already so.What is true is that Israel exists and Israeli people exist. What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts. And with the fact that the Israeli people aren't just going to leave.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
interogative mood I will note that in most other contexts people tend to describe Russia's 1996 and 1999 actions in Chechnya as a human rights catastrophe verging on genocide if not actually genocide. Virtually every single person who passed through a Russian filtration point was tortured and/or raped.
I will concede it's a different model, but I can't say I think it's better than 2 or 3.
posted by sotonohito at 4:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Guardian: a mob stormed the international airport in the capital of Dagestan, looking for Jewish passengers.
Reports of anti-Jewish acts were not confined to Makhachkala. In Nalchik, another city in the neighbouring Kabardino-Balkaria region, a planned Jewish centre was set on fire earlier on Sunday. Earlier on Sunday, protesters also besieged a hotel in the Dagestani city of Khasavyurt, searching rooms for “Jewish refugees”.
“We are receiving reports from 4 different cities in Dagestan … of mobs demanding to kill the Jews,” tweeted Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt, a former chief rabbi of Moscow who left in 2022 after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
The announced motive of these convulsions aside, it is prompting discussion of the continued safety of Dagestani ("Mountain") Jews.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reports of anti-Jewish acts were not confined to Makhachkala. In Nalchik, another city in the neighbouring Kabardino-Balkaria region, a planned Jewish centre was set on fire earlier on Sunday. Earlier on Sunday, protesters also besieged a hotel in the Dagestani city of Khasavyurt, searching rooms for “Jewish refugees”.
“We are receiving reports from 4 different cities in Dagestan … of mobs demanding to kill the Jews,” tweeted Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt, a former chief rabbi of Moscow who left in 2022 after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
The announced motive of these convulsions aside, it is prompting discussion of the continued safety of Dagestani ("Mountain") Jews.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I would have posted this in the other thread, but it seems like all discussion has moved here.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sotonohito counter insurgency operations all use the same basic template. The Russians added a lot more violence and human rights violations. However even similar US actions in Iraq in places like Fallujah were pretty awful. This situation is completely terrible now.
posted by interogative mood at 6:22 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:22 PM on October 29, 2023
perhaps the Republican Party could learnlemme stop you right there
posted by Flunkie at 7:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?
posted by ssg at 9:02 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:02 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
I don't know what decolonisation discourse is like where you are, but people who think it means all the settlers being forcibly deported get pretty short shrift here for being unserious and not engaging in good faith. As was said upthread, that's the coloniser mentality, the paranoia that their own crimes will be visited upon them in retribution.
Decolonisation *does*, to me, mean that Australia, Canada, so on, will have to change fundamentally as countries. Names might change - see Aotearoa. Legal systems will have to change, land ownership systems, understandings of kinship, constitutions need amending or rewriting.
Those are the consequences of being "founded improperly" (which rather makes it seem like a filing error, rather than ethnic cleansing at best). It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
You can't extract promises from the colonised that they'll reshape everything in the way that is most comfortable for you, but always jumping to "but I was born here, where would I go?" isn't exactly engaging fairly. Something like all major languages having equal status is perhaps a better starting point.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don't know what decolonisation discourse is like where you are, but people who think it means all the settlers being forcibly deported get pretty short shrift here for being unserious and not engaging in good faith. As was said upthread, that's the coloniser mentality, the paranoia that their own crimes will be visited upon them in retribution.
Decolonisation *does*, to me, mean that Australia, Canada, so on, will have to change fundamentally as countries. Names might change - see Aotearoa. Legal systems will have to change, land ownership systems, understandings of kinship, constitutions need amending or rewriting.
Those are the consequences of being "founded improperly" (which rather makes it seem like a filing error, rather than ethnic cleansing at best). It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
You can't extract promises from the colonised that they'll reshape everything in the way that is most comfortable for you, but always jumping to "but I was born here, where would I go?" isn't exactly engaging fairly. Something like all major languages having equal status is perhaps a better starting point.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don’t think it is possible convince Israeli Jews that they are colonizers of the land that is the birthplace of Jewish culture and history. Try telling them that Israel isn’t a restoration of something lost and a refuge for a people who have survived and persisted as a distinct culture through millennia of Diaspora and persecution. All those celebrations that include phrase, “next year in Jerusalem.”
I think that calling them colonizers only serves to provoke anger and outrage among many Israelis and it ends up being used as a justification by Hamas for its continued campaign of violence to destroy Israel and its position that Israel must be replaced with an Islamic country.
posted by interogative mood at 9:50 PM on October 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think that calling them colonizers only serves to provoke anger and outrage among many Israelis and it ends up being used as a justification by Hamas for its continued campaign of violence to destroy Israel and its position that Israel must be replaced with an Islamic country.
posted by interogative mood at 9:50 PM on October 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
Let me add it also lets people like Netanyahu present themselves as staunch defenders of Israel’s legitimacy against the evil leftists who want to destroy Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well I’m sure once we figure out the exact right English language word to use to describe the situation prior to Oct 7, Netanyahu will call for an immediate ceasefire and end the ethnic cleansing his government is currently carrying out in Gaza and the West Bank at his direction.
posted by ohneat at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by ohneat at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
I don’t think it is possible convince Israeli Jews that they are colonizers of the land that is the birthplace of Jewish culture and history.
What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
interogative mood: Let me add it also lets people like Netanyahu present themselves as staunch defenders of Israel’s legitimacy against the evil leftists who want to destroy Israel.
That will always be an advantage of right wing parties everywhere, though, won't it? "You benefit fromthe existing power structures this great nation that you are proud of. Leftists want to change that, vote for me instead."
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
That will always be an advantage of right wing parties everywhere, though, won't it? "You benefit from
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
A fair number of the headlines about the riot in Dagestan describe it as a "demonstration".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:49 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:49 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't agree with you in that the dissolution of Israel would be the best solution. ...
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century.
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
posted by Lanark at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century.
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
posted by Lanark at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
A fair number of the headlines about the riot in Dagestan describe it as a "demonstration".
The AP's first story on it was headlined "Crowd storms Russian airport to protest flight from Israel" which... does not really capture the tenor of what happened, even as described in the initial reports.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The AP's first story on it was headlined "Crowd storms Russian airport to protest flight from Israel" which... does not really capture the tenor of what happened, even as described in the initial reports.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
for me the issue is less "but how we will protect the Jews in this new state" (as in the linked video) but more "what army suppresses the incipient hard-right settler insurrection this is guaranteed to generate."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
for me the issue is less "but how we will protect the Jews in this new state" (as in the linked video) but more "what army suppresses the incipient hard-right settler insurrection this is guaranteed to generate."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
good tweet thread from activist, musician, and filmmaker Boots Riley about how some of the things people are saying about Hamas are not accurate. copy and pasting below (original typos included - that's just Boots):
"Ppl keep saying Hamas's charter says "kill all jews"
1000s r being killed w them as justification, so I looked it up
Theyve had newer charters.
The latest is 2017.
1) they say their struggle isnt against Jews
2) they say they want the 1967 borders
From the Hamas Charter (2017):
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
"Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds."
"Hamas considers establishment of a fully sovereign & independent Palestinian state, w Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, w the return of the refugees & the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, 2b a formula of national consensus."
I mean- it seems like aomeone in the media couldve done the same google search as I did and found a giardian article and then went to all the publications that talked about this.
this isnt a question of whether one agrees w Hamas or not. I dont. I'm a communist & this group's origins come from IDF & Mossad, like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Its a question of what kind of stories we'r told to justify slaughter
And this info doesnt change anything materially- the 1400 Israelis who died on Oct 7th, the 8000 palestinians whove died since then- are all still dead.
But the idea that they are out to "kill all jews" has illogically manufactured consent for genocidal actions.
Here is the direct link to the 2017 charter
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
No.
But if u say Israel's killing 8000 ppl, 3500 of em KIDS, w 10s of thousnds more2die cuz Hamas's charter sez "kill all jews"&"Destroy israel",
but the charter sez "2 state solution"&"our struggle isnt vs jews"-
this needs2b said."
posted by JimBennett at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Ppl keep saying Hamas's charter says "kill all jews"
1000s r being killed w them as justification, so I looked it up
Theyve had newer charters.
The latest is 2017.
1) they say their struggle isnt against Jews
2) they say they want the 1967 borders
From the Hamas Charter (2017):
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
"Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds."
"Hamas considers establishment of a fully sovereign & independent Palestinian state, w Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, w the return of the refugees & the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, 2b a formula of national consensus."
I mean- it seems like aomeone in the media couldve done the same google search as I did and found a giardian article and then went to all the publications that talked about this.
this isnt a question of whether one agrees w Hamas or not. I dont. I'm a communist & this group's origins come from IDF & Mossad, like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Its a question of what kind of stories we'r told to justify slaughter
And this info doesnt change anything materially- the 1400 Israelis who died on Oct 7th, the 8000 palestinians whove died since then- are all still dead.
But the idea that they are out to "kill all jews" has illogically manufactured consent for genocidal actions.
Here is the direct link to the 2017 charter
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
No.
But if u say Israel's killing 8000 ppl, 3500 of em KIDS, w 10s of thousnds more2die cuz Hamas's charter sez "kill all jews"&"Destroy israel",
but the charter sez "2 state solution"&"our struggle isnt vs jews"-
this needs2b said."
posted by JimBennett at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
‘It could have all ended with us getting killed’: Passenger on flight from Israel to Russia’s Dagestan recounts anti-Semitic riot at airport. Pretty harrowing
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
For any of you wanting a deeper insight into the rich culture of Palestinian literature at this time, NS Ahmed provides a list of novels, non fiction and poetry.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
The 2017 Statement of principles does not revoke the 1988 Hamas charter. Hamas leaders have at times described it as outdated but have stated that it cannot be changed or amended. The 2017 charter does moderate some views and acknowledge a national consensus onto create a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and accepts the idea of some temporary state of Israel with a long term truce. At the same time in section 21 it rejects the Oslo accords, security arrangements and cooperation.
In section 27 they state:
In multiple sections starting with section 2 they are clear that the this includes not just 1967 or 1948 borders; but the whole of the area. They explicitly reject the UN borders of 1948.
It is true that Hamas has made efforts to moderate at times and there have been ceasefires, unofficial negotiations and changes in enforcement of sanctions and the blockade in hopes of encouraging peace. These efforts have been undermined by provocations by the right wing and settler groups in Israel.
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
Hamas also makes claims in their 2017 Charter that their fight is only with the idea of Zionism and that they are not antisemitic.
Yet this is at odds with their history and conduct as noted in this 2005 article in The Journal of Palestine Studies.. The author points out that in most of their communications and propaganda they use the terms Jews and Zionist interchangeably.
Here’s a chilling moment from Hamas’ Al Aksa TV in 2014 where the message is “Kill all the Jews”. T
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI, has a page tracking reactions in Islamic media to the crisis here.
posted by interogative mood at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
In section 27 they state:
27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.
In multiple sections starting with section 2 they are clear that the this includes not just 1967 or 1948 borders; but the whole of the area. They explicitly reject the UN borders of 1948.
It is true that Hamas has made efforts to moderate at times and there have been ceasefires, unofficial negotiations and changes in enforcement of sanctions and the blockade in hopes of encouraging peace. These efforts have been undermined by provocations by the right wing and settler groups in Israel.
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
Hamas also makes claims in their 2017 Charter that their fight is only with the idea of Zionism and that they are not antisemitic.
Yet this is at odds with their history and conduct as noted in this 2005 article in The Journal of Palestine Studies.. The author points out that in most of their communications and propaganda they use the terms Jews and Zionist interchangeably.
Here’s a chilling moment from Hamas’ Al Aksa TV in 2014 where the message is “Kill all the Jews”. T
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI, has a page tracking reactions in Islamic media to the crisis here.
posted by interogative mood at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
On preview, what interogative mood said.
I'll link again to @rootsmetals on the Orientalist infantalisation of Hamas.
posted by fight or flight at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
On preview, what interogative mood said.
I'll link again to @rootsmetals on the Orientalist infantalisation of Hamas.
posted by fight or flight at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI
MEMRI is a propaganda outlet founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer and has a history of unreliable reporting. Everything from there should be treated with extreme skepticism, in my view. Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
MEMRI is a propaganda outlet founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer and has a history of unreliable reporting. Everything from there should be treated with extreme skepticism, in my view. Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
have the palestinian territories been liberated yet? no? then i am not surprised hamas is going to keep attacking.
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
i do actually think it's worth interrogating the media narratives we hear about Hamas given all the lies we've borne witness to over the last few weeks, especially given the tone of this thread.
posted by JimBennett at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
have the palestinian territories been liberated yet? no? then i am not surprised hamas is going to keep attacking.
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
i do actually think it's worth interrogating the media narratives we hear about Hamas given all the lies we've borne witness to over the last few weeks, especially given the tone of this thread.
posted by JimBennett at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel. Whether it is because Israel was founded more recently or it is plain-old antisemitism, protesters in Canada call for the dissolution of the Israeli State and removal of the Israeli people with absolutely no acknowledgment of the irony of their own settler status. It is ignorant, but it's happening.
Let's complicate the issue: did you know about half the population of Israel Jews are from the Middle East? They are from Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. They were expelled in Nazi-inspired pogroms before the founding of Israel. There's a reason that it is the Sephardic version of Hebrew that became the national language. What is now Israel may have a minority Jewish population, and now has a majority Jewish population, but that's because the Jewish population was expelled from the rest of the entire region and concentrated into the one place that would accept them.
Are they settler-colonists? About as much so as the Mohawk who settled in Canada after the American revolution (that is: not an all). When you look at the genetics of Israeli Jews, they are most closely related to… Palestinians. They are both indigenous people.
Imposing settler-colonists models on Israel and Palestine completely distorts the history of the region. You can condemn the stupid-ass, religious and political fanatic settlers in the west bank, and recognize that they are invading what should be an independent state. Liberal Israelis and Jews have been calling for an end to the occupation and invasion of the west bank for decades. One can also acknowledge that ethnic cleansing absolutely happened in the founding of Israel, but we also need to remember that ethnic cleansing in both Europe and the Middle East is what led to the founding of Israel.
And as noted upthread, regardless of the situation 100 years ago, there is now an Israeli people. There is no just peace that does not find a place for the Israeli people, just as there is no just peace that does not find a place for Palestinians and other non Jewish Israeli people.
posted by jb at 9:39 AM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel. Whether it is because Israel was founded more recently or it is plain-old antisemitism, protesters in Canada call for the dissolution of the Israeli State and removal of the Israeli people with absolutely no acknowledgment of the irony of their own settler status. It is ignorant, but it's happening.
Let's complicate the issue: did you know about half the population of Israel Jews are from the Middle East? They are from Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. They were expelled in Nazi-inspired pogroms before the founding of Israel. There's a reason that it is the Sephardic version of Hebrew that became the national language. What is now Israel may have a minority Jewish population, and now has a majority Jewish population, but that's because the Jewish population was expelled from the rest of the entire region and concentrated into the one place that would accept them.
Are they settler-colonists? About as much so as the Mohawk who settled in Canada after the American revolution (that is: not an all). When you look at the genetics of Israeli Jews, they are most closely related to… Palestinians. They are both indigenous people.
Imposing settler-colonists models on Israel and Palestine completely distorts the history of the region. You can condemn the stupid-ass, religious and political fanatic settlers in the west bank, and recognize that they are invading what should be an independent state. Liberal Israelis and Jews have been calling for an end to the occupation and invasion of the west bank for decades. One can also acknowledge that ethnic cleansing absolutely happened in the founding of Israel, but we also need to remember that ethnic cleansing in both Europe and the Middle East is what led to the founding of Israel.
And as noted upthread, regardless of the situation 100 years ago, there is now an Israeli people. There is no just peace that does not find a place for the Israeli people, just as there is no just peace that does not find a place for Palestinians and other non Jewish Israeli people.
posted by jb at 9:39 AM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
What large scale organization involved with mass protests we've seen (In London, NY, and next weekend DC) is calling for "mass deportations from Israel"? Just curious who has stated this and what exactly they said.
posted by windbox at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel.
Are they? How many? How prevalent is the claim among anti-Israeli protesters that all Jews in Israel must leave? What's your evidence for this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here is an article in Der Spiegel on Al-Aqsa TV if MEMRI is too controversial a source for you. Or if you want another example of the pervasive antisemitism fostered by Hamas despite their denials read the following article from PBS website on Hamas' new textbooks. The article notes [the textbooks] do not recognize modern Israel, make no mention of the Oslo Peace Accords between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and say the Jewish Torah and Talmud are “fabricated.”
posted by interogative mood at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know how much use it is going around and around on classifications that matter more to academics and activists than the people on the ground.
But, to the extent we're going to keep arguing about it, it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
But, to the extent we're going to keep arguing about it, it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
At this point, it's irrelevant what Hamas "is"; they launched an unarguably savage and indefensible terrorist attack on Israel on Oct 7. You are what you do.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
At this point, it's irrelevant what Hamas "is"; they launched an unarguably savage and indefensible terrorist attack on Israel on Oct 7. You are what you do.
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas? or the genocidal fantasies of those in the Israeli govermnet? It may be informative of future actions but if your killing civilians and doing other bad stuff its kind of irrelevant to me if you're 100% a racist or 0% a racist.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas? or the genocidal fantasies of those in the Israeli govermnet? It may be informative of future actions but if your killing civilians and doing other bad stuff its kind of irrelevant to me if you're 100% a racist or 0% a racist.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
The answer to that question is "yes" (Liberia was also a settler colony); I don't know why this is conceptually hard to grasp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The answer to that question is "yes" (Liberia was also a settler colony); I don't know why this is conceptually hard to grasp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
What large scale organization involved with mass protests we've seen (In London, NY, and next weekend DC) is calling for "mass deportations from Israel"? Just curious who has stated this and what exactly they said.
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier". Leaving aside the Biden issue (this was about the hospital bombing in which the evidence increasingly has pointed to IJP), they were not chanting "end the occupation". This I would have happily joined. But what else can "end the occupier" mean? Ethnic cleansing feels like the kinder possibility. Hamas went for torture and slaughter.
I didn't ask for further details as I passed by. I was on my way home from synagogue, and I didn't feel safe drawing any attention. The same protest group later went on to protest outside a restaurant which happens to have been founded by Israelis but I can't figure out any other connection to the Israeli government.
I also know that leftist groups such as our local university unions, our public service union, and other speakers have not only not condemned the Hamas slaughter but have justified it as "resistance". There is no resistance that justifies rape or the purposeful killing of children. In Southern Israel, there were children who were tied up and burned alive on purpose. When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
When I was at synagogue on this Saturday, we prayed to end the bombing of Gaza, as well as for the return of the hostages.
posted by jb at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier". Leaving aside the Biden issue (this was about the hospital bombing in which the evidence increasingly has pointed to IJP), they were not chanting "end the occupation". This I would have happily joined. But what else can "end the occupier" mean? Ethnic cleansing feels like the kinder possibility. Hamas went for torture and slaughter.
I didn't ask for further details as I passed by. I was on my way home from synagogue, and I didn't feel safe drawing any attention. The same protest group later went on to protest outside a restaurant which happens to have been founded by Israelis but I can't figure out any other connection to the Israeli government.
I also know that leftist groups such as our local university unions, our public service union, and other speakers have not only not condemned the Hamas slaughter but have justified it as "resistance". There is no resistance that justifies rape or the purposeful killing of children. In Southern Israel, there were children who were tied up and burned alive on purpose. When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
When I was at synagogue on this Saturday, we prayed to end the bombing of Gaza, as well as for the return of the hostages.
posted by jb at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
read the following article from PBS website on Hamas' new textbooks.
Whoa that textbook stuff is so crazy! Do you mean to say that places led by extremist political parties with violent nationalist aspirations are not acknowledging a full and fair accounting of history in their school curriculum? Very disturbing stuff indeed.
I will maintain that for however shitty Hamas is, there is somewhere between 95-100% crossover with whatever the Likud party of the last ~20 years has been. Soldiers committing utterly despicable acts, indiscriminate violence and murder of civilians? Extreme hostility and prejudice toward "the other"? Censorship and borderline totalitarianism? Breaking of ceasefires and truces?
You name it and both sides have done it, and both of their civilian populations have had to suffer for it. Except a) it is the people of Gaza and the West Bank who have to suffer objectively, quantifiably, asymmetrically more because b) eh fuck 'em they are poor uncivilized arabs and when *they* do it, they are uniquely savage monsters acting out of bloodlust and #Hate, unlike Israel, the civilized liberal Official State acting out of #RightToDefend.
posted by windbox at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Whoa that textbook stuff is so crazy! Do you mean to say that places led by extremist political parties with violent nationalist aspirations are not acknowledging a full and fair accounting of history in their school curriculum? Very disturbing stuff indeed.
I will maintain that for however shitty Hamas is, there is somewhere between 95-100% crossover with whatever the Likud party of the last ~20 years has been. Soldiers committing utterly despicable acts, indiscriminate violence and murder of civilians? Extreme hostility and prejudice toward "the other"? Censorship and borderline totalitarianism? Breaking of ceasefires and truces?
You name it and both sides have done it, and both of their civilian populations have had to suffer for it. Except a) it is the people of Gaza and the West Bank who have to suffer objectively, quantifiably, asymmetrically more because b) eh fuck 'em they are poor uncivilized arabs and when *they* do it, they are uniquely savage monsters acting out of bloodlust and #Hate, unlike Israel, the civilized liberal Official State acting out of #RightToDefend.
posted by windbox at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
But what else can "end the occupier" mean?
Uh, ending the occupation? Which is the stated position of just left-wing radicals as.....the US government.
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
Uh, ending the occupation? Which is the stated position of just left-wing radicals as.....the US government.
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
According to The Israel Democracy Institute, 83.4% of Israeli Jews don’t think that “Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza.”
Just imagine how far this fact would travel if it was:
83.4% of Gazans don’t think that “Hamas should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Israel.”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just imagine how far this fact would travel if it was:
83.4% of Gazans don’t think that “Hamas should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Israel.”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
I know that in the end, a dead baby is a dead baby, which is why I oppose the bombing of Gaza (as well as the shooting of protesters in the west bank or the destruction of houses, etc.) But I think that we can acknowledge that it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization. Other details of the Hamas attack - the rape of women before killing them, burning children alive - indicate that the fighters did not merely wish to kill but also to torture and punish.
The Hamas attack does not justify an all out attack on Gaza, but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
I want to go to a protest against the war where I can carry an Israeli and a Palestinian flag together, where I can stand up for the controversial opinion that killing babies is wrong, that collective punishment is wrong. But I do not feel safe doing so.
posted by jb at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I know that in the end, a dead baby is a dead baby, which is why I oppose the bombing of Gaza (as well as the shooting of protesters in the west bank or the destruction of houses, etc.) But I think that we can acknowledge that it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization. Other details of the Hamas attack - the rape of women before killing them, burning children alive - indicate that the fighters did not merely wish to kill but also to torture and punish.
The Hamas attack does not justify an all out attack on Gaza, but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
I want to go to a protest against the war where I can carry an Israeli and a Palestinian flag together, where I can stand up for the controversial opinion that killing babies is wrong, that collective punishment is wrong. But I do not feel safe doing so.
posted by jb at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
You haven't been paying very much attention then? Many of the protesters taking part in demonstrations organised by Jewish Voice for Peace have been saying those very things!
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:15 AM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
You haven't been paying very much attention then? Many of the protesters taking part in demonstrations organised by Jewish Voice for Peace have been saying those very things!
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:15 AM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization.
You compared the face-to-face murder of children to the murder of children by bombs, and I agree that logically, morally, nothing distinguishes them. And I don't think anyone really has a right to tell, say, the parents of the latter child that the killer is less monstrous than the killer of the former child because one murderer had access to equipment that enabled impersonal murder at a distance and the other murderer did not. I do not acknowledge that one murder is a different action emotionally, because I'm lucky not to have had my child murdered and I wouldn't presume to really know the feelings of someone who has.
I do remember living in the post-9/11 US; many of my neighbours gave every indication of wishing to torture and punish. The torture and punishment inflicted on innocents using impersonal missiles and bombs was part of the same programme as the face-to-face atrocities committed in prisons and secret locations and more conventionally regarded as torture and punishment. What's actually monstrous is for those of us mercifully removed from the situation to centre our own visceral reactions in apportioning our moral judgment, since that leads to relative permissiveness of impersonal, arms-length atrocities compared to atrocities that are, perhaps, to many more shocking* but which are nonetheless atrocities, almost always larger in scale, and whose emotional impact I think can only be assessed accurately by those unfortunate enough to have experienced both types.
I think the idea that one form of murder requires more or less dehumanisation than the other is a contestable claim that, if true, makes the "easier" one even more alarming. But I don't think it's true; I just think that the degree to which different people are background-pre-dehumanised in the eyes of the world is not the same, and if the Israeli army had perpetrated their atrocities in the same manner that Hamas did theirs (and, with ground troops involved, they will --- invading armies and counterinsurgencies inevitably commit atrocities, nothing special about Israel) the reaction in the international press, from international governments, etc. would have been quite different. You know that's the case.
*Check out the early history of aerial bombardment, though, because I think this is a product of cultural narratives, not some kind of innate emotional impact. The initial emotional reaction to the practice of bombing cities from the air was intense moral outrage.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
You compared the face-to-face murder of children to the murder of children by bombs, and I agree that logically, morally, nothing distinguishes them. And I don't think anyone really has a right to tell, say, the parents of the latter child that the killer is less monstrous than the killer of the former child because one murderer had access to equipment that enabled impersonal murder at a distance and the other murderer did not. I do not acknowledge that one murder is a different action emotionally, because I'm lucky not to have had my child murdered and I wouldn't presume to really know the feelings of someone who has.
I do remember living in the post-9/11 US; many of my neighbours gave every indication of wishing to torture and punish. The torture and punishment inflicted on innocents using impersonal missiles and bombs was part of the same programme as the face-to-face atrocities committed in prisons and secret locations and more conventionally regarded as torture and punishment. What's actually monstrous is for those of us mercifully removed from the situation to centre our own visceral reactions in apportioning our moral judgment, since that leads to relative permissiveness of impersonal, arms-length atrocities compared to atrocities that are, perhaps, to many more shocking* but which are nonetheless atrocities, almost always larger in scale, and whose emotional impact I think can only be assessed accurately by those unfortunate enough to have experienced both types.
I think the idea that one form of murder requires more or less dehumanisation than the other is a contestable claim that, if true, makes the "easier" one even more alarming. But I don't think it's true; I just think that the degree to which different people are background-pre-dehumanised in the eyes of the world is not the same, and if the Israeli army had perpetrated their atrocities in the same manner that Hamas did theirs (and, with ground troops involved, they will --- invading armies and counterinsurgencies inevitably commit atrocities, nothing special about Israel) the reaction in the international press, from international governments, etc. would have been quite different. You know that's the case.
*Check out the early history of aerial bombardment, though, because I think this is a product of cultural narratives, not some kind of innate emotional impact. The initial emotional reaction to the practice of bombing cities from the air was intense moral outrage.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas?
My problem with how a lot of these discussions go is that when someone credits Hamas with being anything more than a gang of terrorist criminals, they needlessly complicate an issue of 2 million+ people being held hostage by (first) the criminal gang controlling their land and (second) by the Israeli military blockade ostensibly to stop the criminal gang.
"One Nation, from the river to the sea, with liberty and justice FOR ALL" is how I roll. And if your government cannot get consent of the governed, that's not a problem with the governed, but rather the government.
posted by mikelieman at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My problem with how a lot of these discussions go is that when someone credits Hamas with being anything more than a gang of terrorist criminals, they needlessly complicate an issue of 2 million+ people being held hostage by (first) the criminal gang controlling their land and (second) by the Israeli military blockade ostensibly to stop the criminal gang.
"One Nation, from the river to the sea, with liberty and justice FOR ALL" is how I roll. And if your government cannot get consent of the governed, that's not a problem with the governed, but rather the government.
posted by mikelieman at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier"
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
According to The Israel Democracy Institute, 83.4% of Israeli Jews don’t think that “Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza.”. First of all the question was specifically about the planning of the military operation, not the suffering of Palestinians in general. Futhermore that number is a combination of two different answers from a Likert scale. In actual survey data (provided below) of Israeli Jews was 47.5% said not at all, and 35.9 said not so much. You could also spin the numbers and say that 48.8% of Israeli Jews in the poll said that Israel should at least show some concern for the suffering of Palestinian civilians in planning the military operation. If you add in the Israeli Arabs the number rises to almost 60% of Israelis saying that some concern should be shown.
Here is the press release and overview of the IDI survey referenced above. (Full data here)
Two relevant questions are:
15. To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?
Here is the press release and overview of the IDI survey referenced above. (Full data here)
Two relevant questions are:
15. To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?
- 40% Not at all
- 30% Not so much
- 9% Quite a lot
- 14.6% Very much.
- 23.6% Strongly agree
- 30.0% Somewhat agree
- 22.6 % Somewhat Disagree
- 16.4% Strongly Disagree
- 7.4% Don't know
Imagining a prison with majority innocent people locked inside: "Yeah but why are you not protesting and speaking out against the violent prison gang running the inside of the prison? Seeing a lot of talk about closing the prison filled with innocent people, about freeing the innocent people inside of the prison...yet no one will condemn the lead violent prison gang? I simply do not feel safe with such deafening silence."
posted by windbox at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
Flagged. I know it's been a long day but can we not participate in mockery of or diminishing the lived experiences and feelings of Jewish Mefites? Antisemitism is happening around the world, it is real, it is violent. Yes, even in Toronto. Jews get to have feelings about this. Come on.
posted by fight or flight at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Flagged. I know it's been a long day but can we not participate in mockery of or diminishing the lived experiences and feelings of Jewish Mefites? Antisemitism is happening around the world, it is real, it is violent. Yes, even in Toronto. Jews get to have feelings about this. Come on.
posted by fight or flight at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
The Person Covering Palestine-Israel Best Is … Piers Morgan? (Slate headline; I haven't personally verified.)
Currently watching the included sample interview with Bassem Youssef. Powerful. I may watch more. Or not. It's thought-provoking. And painful. Reality is hard.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Currently watching the included sample interview with Bassem Youssef. Powerful. I may watch more. Or not. It's thought-provoking. And painful. Reality is hard.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
Do you have any suggested sources?
I understand that I'm not super informed, but the vibe that I get is that Likud and Hamas have been in a sort of implicit symbiosis for some time. Violent right-wing people that benefit from being able to point across to the other and say "Look at how violent they are over there! You obviously need strong men like us around in a dangerous situation like this.".
I get the impression that some people think that Hamas is a force for liberation. I must admit that I don't know what life in Gaza is like (or was like before this new conflagration), but I do wonder how Hamas treats Palestinians that want Hamas to take a different course, or want Hamas to be replaced with some different leadership. If Hamas would entertain a peaceful transfer of the power they hold within Gaza, why would they not hold elections for more than a decade? If Hamas would not entertain such a transition, they don't sound like they represent liberation for Palestinians so much as another oppressor.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you have any suggested sources?
I understand that I'm not super informed, but the vibe that I get is that Likud and Hamas have been in a sort of implicit symbiosis for some time. Violent right-wing people that benefit from being able to point across to the other and say "Look at how violent they are over there! You obviously need strong men like us around in a dangerous situation like this.".
I get the impression that some people think that Hamas is a force for liberation. I must admit that I don't know what life in Gaza is like (or was like before this new conflagration), but I do wonder how Hamas treats Palestinians that want Hamas to take a different course, or want Hamas to be replaced with some different leadership. If Hamas would entertain a peaceful transfer of the power they hold within Gaza, why would they not hold elections for more than a decade? If Hamas would not entertain such a transition, they don't sound like they represent liberation for Palestinians so much as another oppressor.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
ssg previously posted this, and this also discusses the meaning of the phrase at some length. "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
posted by kensington314 at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
No. That's not what it means.
ssg previously posted this, and this also discusses the meaning of the phrase at some length. "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
posted by kensington314 at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Imagining a prison with majority innocent people locked inside: "Yeah but why are you not protesting and speaking out against the violent prison gang running the inside of the prison? Seeing a lot of talk about closing the prison filled with innocent people, about freeing the innocent people inside of the prison...yet no one will condemn the lead violent prison gang? I simply do not feel safe with such deafening silence."
I want to try to express something very complex in a careful way. I don't think I can express it right, or avoid being misunderstood. But it's something I've been turning over and over in my head.
I think part of why people who are sympathetic to Palestinians still react very strongly to a lot of anti-Zionist rhetoric is because so much of it seems to assume that Israel's role in this situation is motivated by something like pure evil. What Israel is doing is terrible, morally indefensible, and beyond any justification. It's also the case that settlers in the West Bank have clear religious motivations for settling there, and I think those motivations are entirely abhorrent. But in the case of Gaza, it's important to ask why Israel is enacting the blockade.
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Gaza was never historically part of Israel. The motivations for occupying Gaza are not religious, as they are in the West Bank. Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do. They don't know how else to prevent attacks from hostile militants.
I think it's important to recognize this as a step in figuring out how to effectively resist. BDS has not been effective. I think the reason it hasn't been effective, and would never have been effective, is because of a misleading analogy to South African apartheid. White South Africans benefited from apartheid. It was therefore possible to impose sanctions and change the incentives to make maintaining apartheid no longer beneficial.
Israel doesn't benefit from the blockade/occupation in Gaza, except to the extent that it kept them safe (which, as it turns out, it hasn't). They don't want Gaza back. They supply Gaza with water and electricity. Running this prison is expensive. But there is no amount of sanctions that would get them to lift the blockade, because they see doing so as suicide. Israel has done evil things. But they're not doing them for fun. That doesn't excuse it. But it does explain part of why the international backlash has been so ineffective, and in fact counterproductive, in changing the situation. There is very little difference, in the Israeli mindset, between telling Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow more materials for rockets and weaponry into Gaza, and telling them to roll over and die. They see the withdrawal from Gaza as a total failure, which immediately made their security situation worse, and which resulted in even more international condemnation. What they took from that is that they'll be condemned no matter what they do, so why bother caring what the world thinks. Which is why it all feels so hopeless. Israel will take becoming a pariah state over what they see as suicide. They will do anything they see as necessary to keep themselves alive. From their perspective, if there's no prison gang, then they don't need to keep running the prison.
I don't know how to get out of this. But I think, on a pragmatic level, any effective response has to recognize Israel's reasons for what it's doing, not to agree with them, but because to solve a problem you have to understand it.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
I want to try to express something very complex in a careful way. I don't think I can express it right, or avoid being misunderstood. But it's something I've been turning over and over in my head.
I think part of why people who are sympathetic to Palestinians still react very strongly to a lot of anti-Zionist rhetoric is because so much of it seems to assume that Israel's role in this situation is motivated by something like pure evil. What Israel is doing is terrible, morally indefensible, and beyond any justification. It's also the case that settlers in the West Bank have clear religious motivations for settling there, and I think those motivations are entirely abhorrent. But in the case of Gaza, it's important to ask why Israel is enacting the blockade.
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Gaza was never historically part of Israel. The motivations for occupying Gaza are not religious, as they are in the West Bank. Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do. They don't know how else to prevent attacks from hostile militants.
I think it's important to recognize this as a step in figuring out how to effectively resist. BDS has not been effective. I think the reason it hasn't been effective, and would never have been effective, is because of a misleading analogy to South African apartheid. White South Africans benefited from apartheid. It was therefore possible to impose sanctions and change the incentives to make maintaining apartheid no longer beneficial.
Israel doesn't benefit from the blockade/occupation in Gaza, except to the extent that it kept them safe (which, as it turns out, it hasn't). They don't want Gaza back. They supply Gaza with water and electricity. Running this prison is expensive. But there is no amount of sanctions that would get them to lift the blockade, because they see doing so as suicide. Israel has done evil things. But they're not doing them for fun. That doesn't excuse it. But it does explain part of why the international backlash has been so ineffective, and in fact counterproductive, in changing the situation. There is very little difference, in the Israeli mindset, between telling Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow more materials for rockets and weaponry into Gaza, and telling them to roll over and die. They see the withdrawal from Gaza as a total failure, which immediately made their security situation worse, and which resulted in even more international condemnation. What they took from that is that they'll be condemned no matter what they do, so why bother caring what the world thinks. Which is why it all feels so hopeless. Israel will take becoming a pariah state over what they see as suicide. They will do anything they see as necessary to keep themselves alive. From their perspective, if there's no prison gang, then they don't need to keep running the prison.
I don't know how to get out of this. But I think, on a pragmatic level, any effective response has to recognize Israel's reasons for what it's doing, not to agree with them, but because to solve a problem you have to understand it.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do.
JFC. I just can't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
JFC. I just can't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do
They know exactly what they're doing? Netanyahu was pretty explicit about propping up Hamas as part of a divide and rule strategy to keep Gaza and the West Bank at odds and prevent any Palestinian unity or forward movement on statehood.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
They know exactly what they're doing? Netanyahu was pretty explicit about propping up Hamas as part of a divide and rule strategy to keep Gaza and the West Bank at odds and prevent any Palestinian unity or forward movement on statehood.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
cosmic owl, I took this as a good faith post and read it with open mind. I'm not certain I agree with you on why BDS hasn't forced a resolution, or whether the analogy between South Africa and Israel needs to be so precise for BDS to be relevant and potentially effective. I'll have to think and read up on this.
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations." Do you disagree? Disagree and have a better characterization than mine?
posted by kensington314 at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations." Do you disagree? Disagree and have a better characterization than mine?
posted by kensington314 at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
"In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I phrased that poorly, and I deserve pushback on it. Netanyahu is a piece of shit and he and his government actively don't want peace with Palestinians. Lots of Israelis agree with him, for various reasons. As has been pointed out upthread, they also see a one-state solution which creates an Arab majority as suicide.
Lots of Israelis also don't agree with him, which is why there were five elections in less than four years. I'm trying to articulate the mindset among those Israelis that has led to the current situation where Netanyahu has been able to maintain a tenuous grip on power. I've watched more and more left-leaning Israelis entirely lose any hope for peace. Condemnation of Hamas is a sticking point for them, because for them Hamas is the whole reason for the blockade. Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Lots of Israelis also don't agree with him, which is why there were five elections in less than four years. I'm trying to articulate the mindset among those Israelis that has led to the current situation where Netanyahu has been able to maintain a tenuous grip on power. I've watched more and more left-leaning Israelis entirely lose any hope for peace. Condemnation of Hamas is a sticking point for them, because for them Hamas is the whole reason for the blockade. Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations."
I'd like to thank cosmic owl for their post, mostly for putting something into clear language.. what seems so self-evident but gets lost in the back-and-forth. This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings. If I was born in Gaza I can imagine I'd be part of Hamas. If I was born in Israel I'd assuredly be part of the IDF. I don't see how Palestinians and Israelis (alone) can resolve this, not since the Oslo Accord failed. Nothing in the comments is particularly illuminative of a way forward, or if so I missed it. A good chunk of the comments in fact present the same handful of MeFites duking it out.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd like to thank cosmic owl for their post, mostly for putting something into clear language.. what seems so self-evident but gets lost in the back-and-forth. This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings. If I was born in Gaza I can imagine I'd be part of Hamas. If I was born in Israel I'd assuredly be part of the IDF. I don't see how Palestinians and Israelis (alone) can resolve this, not since the Oslo Accord failed. Nothing in the comments is particularly illuminative of a way forward, or if so I missed it. A good chunk of the comments in fact present the same handful of MeFites duking it out.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links. We've got to be able to hold the complexity that there is a through-line of Palestinian hope for sovereignty and freedom across the displaced generations, that complex internal politics including the failure of Fatah led to the election of Hamas in 2006, that even in the 2006 election Palestinians supported a peace agreement with Israel, that there has been no election since, and that Hamas is unpopular in Gaza (which could change after the launch of this war, obviously).
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links. We've got to be able to hold the complexity that there is a through-line of Palestinian hope for sovereignty and freedom across the displaced generations, that complex internal politics including the failure of Fatah led to the election of Hamas in 2006, that even in the 2006 election Palestinians supported a peace agreement with Israel, that there has been no election since, and that Hamas is unpopular in Gaza (which could change after the launch of this war, obviously).
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
Appreciate your response, cosmic owl.
posted by kensington314 at 1:05 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Appreciate your response, cosmic owl.
posted by kensington314 at 1:05 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings.
But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel's position of power and ability to inflict tremendous suffering on Palestinians is very actively supported by the US and to a lesser, but still very significant, degree by the UK, Canada, etc.
That's why it absolutely matters that we call out these genocidal actions for what they are. Changing public opinion in the US and other countries is absolutely crucial to ending the violence. Public opinion polls are already showing a significant shift in the US, with major differences between generations, but unfortunately the politicians have yet to catch up (lobbying is also unfortunately a major factor).
posted by ssg at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel's position of power and ability to inflict tremendous suffering on Palestinians is very actively supported by the US and to a lesser, but still very significant, degree by the UK, Canada, etc.
That's why it absolutely matters that we call out these genocidal actions for what they are. Changing public opinion in the US and other countries is absolutely crucial to ending the violence. Public opinion polls are already showing a significant shift in the US, with major differences between generations, but unfortunately the politicians have yet to catch up (lobbying is also unfortunately a major factor).
posted by ssg at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
kensington314, I appreciate your desire to center the people of Gaza in this discussion, as they are the ones suffering the most at this moment. I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic" Throughout their history Jews have been turned on by their neighbors, forcibly exiled, and erased by genocidal tactics. All that is well known. So to bring up the idea that after the ruling institution of Gaza perpetrated the worst series of murders, rapes, infanticide, and kidnappings against Jews since the Holocaust, it was "deeply racist and Islamophobic" to even imagine the possibility that it could happen in a unified Palestine is incredibly offensive.
posted by gwint at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic"
Holy shit is that an incredible bad-faith reading that just completely ignores context.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Holy shit is that an incredible bad-faith reading that just completely ignores context.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was the full quote I was responding to: "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th, I believe you can find that elsewhere online.
posted by gwint at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th, I believe you can find that elsewhere online.
posted by gwint at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, yes, it is Islamophobic to believe that it's inevitable that a free Palestine would result in mass murder of Jewish Israelis. Is that not the rhetoric behind the treatment of Gazans to date?
posted by sagc at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2023
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2023
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th
I stand by my statement that your comment is an incredibly bad-faith argument. What happened on October 7th was an atrocity, but it also didn't happen in a vacuum, not when the IDF has been doing things like this, not when settlers have been assaulting villages in the West Bank with impunity and IDF protection. I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I stand by my statement that your comment is an incredibly bad-faith argument. What happened on October 7th was an atrocity, but it also didn't happen in a vacuum, not when the IDF has been doing things like this, not when settlers have been assaulting villages in the West Bank with impunity and IDF protection. I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
I get it. I will say that as someone whose primary political focus related to I/P has always been for Palestinian liberation, the massacre on October 7 and the renewed global focus on the I/P status quo has sparked for me a lot of thinking, reading, and IRL discussion on the need for a Jewish homeland and how that asserted need is responsive to the Jewish experience of violent and existential-threat-level anti-semitism across time. Two-thirds of Jewish people in Europe were killed in the Holocaust and anti-semitism is flourishing across the globe today, it's not like there's any place for most Israelis to live other than Israel, which is their home. So an idea I did not intend to posit was that Jewish concern about their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
But that phrase, "deeply racist and Islamophobic" came from a link I brought here, so let me excerpt it (apologies, I can't figure out how to HTML indent a passage):
In other words, after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.
That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes.
To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose.
That’s why, despite the occasional bout of overheated rhetoric from some leaders, there was no official Palestinian position calling for the forced removal of Jews from Palestine. This continued to be their position despite an Israeli media campaign following the 1967 war that claimed Palestinians wished to “throw Jews into the sea.”
The full link is worth reading, and it does discuss the way the phrase has been repurposed by Hamas--I don't think the link I posted leaves the phrase "from the river to the sea" without problems, you can see that even in the excerpt above, I think. But the article seeks to create a broader understanding of a slogan that pre-dates Hamas, that will post-date Hamas however/whenever their rule of Gaza ends, and which speaks to the goal of Palestinian self-determination, which we should all support. The slogan isn't going away, and it doesn't necessarily refer to "mass annihilation" when people of good faith use it.
I'll also add from the article: And notwithstanding the extreme rhetoric of some leaders on both sides, a recent joint poll shows that only a small minority of Palestinians see “expulsion” as a solution to the conflict – 15% — which is incidentally the same percentage of Israelis who view this as the only solution.
The phrase as discussed in the article is about a desire for full citizenship for Palestinians in their homeland. That raises the thorny question of a single state, or two states, or how a state could ever come into existence, and as has been discussed throughout this thread and the previous, Israel and the U.S. have abandoned any serious consideration of these things.
posted by kensington314 at 1:59 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I get it. I will say that as someone whose primary political focus related to I/P has always been for Palestinian liberation, the massacre on October 7 and the renewed global focus on the I/P status quo has sparked for me a lot of thinking, reading, and IRL discussion on the need for a Jewish homeland and how that asserted need is responsive to the Jewish experience of violent and existential-threat-level anti-semitism across time. Two-thirds of Jewish people in Europe were killed in the Holocaust and anti-semitism is flourishing across the globe today, it's not like there's any place for most Israelis to live other than Israel, which is their home. So an idea I did not intend to posit was that Jewish concern about their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
But that phrase, "deeply racist and Islamophobic" came from a link I brought here, so let me excerpt it (apologies, I can't figure out how to HTML indent a passage):
In other words, after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.
That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes.
To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose.
That’s why, despite the occasional bout of overheated rhetoric from some leaders, there was no official Palestinian position calling for the forced removal of Jews from Palestine. This continued to be their position despite an Israeli media campaign following the 1967 war that claimed Palestinians wished to “throw Jews into the sea.”
The full link is worth reading, and it does discuss the way the phrase has been repurposed by Hamas--I don't think the link I posted leaves the phrase "from the river to the sea" without problems, you can see that even in the excerpt above, I think. But the article seeks to create a broader understanding of a slogan that pre-dates Hamas, that will post-date Hamas however/whenever their rule of Gaza ends, and which speaks to the goal of Palestinian self-determination, which we should all support. The slogan isn't going away, and it doesn't necessarily refer to "mass annihilation" when people of good faith use it.
I'll also add from the article: And notwithstanding the extreme rhetoric of some leaders on both sides, a recent joint poll shows that only a small minority of Palestinians see “expulsion” as a solution to the conflict – 15% — which is incidentally the same percentage of Israelis who view this as the only solution.
The phrase as discussed in the article is about a desire for full citizenship for Palestinians in their homeland. That raises the thorny question of a single state, or two states, or how a state could ever come into existence, and as has been discussed throughout this thread and the previous, Israel and the U.S. have abandoned any serious consideration of these things.
posted by kensington314 at 1:59 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
posted by jb at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2023
No. That's not what it means.
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
posted by jb at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2023
I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
Wow, talk about bad faith. The first sentence of my comment literally talked about centering the suffering of Gazans.
kensington314, thanks very much for your followup. I know for a lot of Jews it is hard to distinguish "from the river to the sea" from the infamous throw Jews into the sea phrase, that as you quoted, has been used for propaganda purposes as well. I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many. And again, my comments are not meant to take away from witnessing the suffering of those in Gaza. My hope is that recognizing the fears and the aspirations of both parties in a conflict can foster greater understanding and ultimately, somehow, peace.
posted by gwint at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wow, talk about bad faith. The first sentence of my comment literally talked about centering the suffering of Gazans.
kensington314, thanks very much for your followup. I know for a lot of Jews it is hard to distinguish "from the river to the sea" from the infamous throw Jews into the sea phrase, that as you quoted, has been used for propaganda purposes as well. I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many. And again, my comments are not meant to take away from witnessing the suffering of those in Gaza. My hope is that recognizing the fears and the aspirations of both parties in a conflict can foster greater understanding and ultimately, somehow, peace.
posted by gwint at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many.
I'm certain that must be true.
posted by kensington314 at 2:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm certain that must be true.
posted by kensington314 at 2:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
You mean like Netanyahu explicitly calling for genocide by calling Palestinians "Amalek"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
You mean like Netanyahu explicitly calling for genocide by calling Palestinians "Amalek"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
The ANSWER Coalition and many other orgs are organizing a march on Washington this Saturday Nov 4: Join us at Freedom Plaza in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, November 4 at 2pm to demand: End the Siege of Gaza! End all U.S. aid to Israel! Free Palestine!
Buses and carpools are coming from all over the country; more are being added each day.
Legal Resources for Activists Advocating for Palestine Across the U.S. from Palestine Legal
Jewish Voice for Peace: Actions and templates for contacting Biden, reps, etc. to demand a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Buses and carpools are coming from all over the country; more are being added each day.
Legal Resources for Activists Advocating for Palestine Across the U.S. from Palestine Legal
Jewish Voice for Peace: Actions and templates for contacting Biden, reps, etc. to demand a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
Posted by JimBennett at 10:58 AM
Already happened on the first thread.
I linked the new charter, thank God they left out the Lions and rotary club as fronts for, for....not sure none the less it's a brand change, and update of modified rhetoric.
like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Here's a few strings to pull.
'Ropes of Sand' is a good read but as I said, by conveying Boland, I believe this event is Outside History. For example, the lens of religiosity is more secular; humanitarian, political.
posted by clavdivs at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023
Posted by JimBennett at 10:58 AM
Already happened on the first thread.
I linked the new charter, thank God they left out the Lions and rotary club as fronts for, for....not sure none the less it's a brand change, and update of modified rhetoric.
like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Here's a few strings to pull.
'Ropes of Sand' is a good read but as I said, by conveying Boland, I believe this event is Outside History. For example, the lens of religiosity is more secular; humanitarian, political.
posted by clavdivs at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023
I don't think accusing others of bad faith arguments adds anything to the conversation here. There are a variety of viewpoints here, drawn from different experiences and different cultural contexts. There are people on this site who are mourning the death of family, friends and colleagues both Israeli and Palestinian. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't slept much since October 7th and I'm doing my best to process a lot of feelings. Let's all try to take it easy on each other.
posted by interogative mood at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
The Foreign Policy link kensington314 posted a few comments above, What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas, is worth a read, with lots of specific data from the well-respected Arab Barometer polling group (also posted in the previous thread). Here's an archive version, including a corrective to some of the distorted versions of recent history that have been promoted above:
Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014. In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014. In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
More from that link, which really would advance this discussion if more Mefites read it:
The results of the Arab Barometer survey paint a bleak picture of Gaza in the days before the October 7 attacks. The Hamas government, unable to address citizens’ vital concerns, had lost the public’s confidence. Few Gazans supported Hamas’s goal of destroying the state of Israel, which left Gaza’s leaders and its population divided over the future direction of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The vast majority of Gazans strongly favored a peaceful solution, and they yearned for leaders who could both deliver such a solution and improve Gazans’ overall quality of life. So far, however, the policies of their own government and of the Israeli government have prevented progress on both fronts...
In terms of attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, support for the two-state solution in the West Bank was slightly lower than in Gaza (49 percent versus 54 percent), and opposition to Arab-Israeli normalization was slightly higher. Only five percent of respondents in the West Bank approved of the regional rapprochement, compared with 10 percent of Gazans. Although the differences were small, these relatively hardened attitudes in the West Bank were likely a result of tensions between Palestinians and Israeli settlers and soldiers in recent months. The survey’s finding that roughly half of Palestinians still support the two-state solution may offer some hope for peace in the long term, but the results do not inspire much confidence in short-term stability. The deep unpopularity of Palestinian leadership, in the West Bank in particular, calls into question the feasibility of reestablishing the Palestinian Authority’s control over Gaza, which some media outlets have suggested as the next step in reconstruction after Israel’s military campaign against Hamas is complete.
posted by mediareport at 2:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The results of the Arab Barometer survey paint a bleak picture of Gaza in the days before the October 7 attacks. The Hamas government, unable to address citizens’ vital concerns, had lost the public’s confidence. Few Gazans supported Hamas’s goal of destroying the state of Israel, which left Gaza’s leaders and its population divided over the future direction of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The vast majority of Gazans strongly favored a peaceful solution, and they yearned for leaders who could both deliver such a solution and improve Gazans’ overall quality of life. So far, however, the policies of their own government and of the Israeli government have prevented progress on both fronts...
In terms of attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, support for the two-state solution in the West Bank was slightly lower than in Gaza (49 percent versus 54 percent), and opposition to Arab-Israeli normalization was slightly higher. Only five percent of respondents in the West Bank approved of the regional rapprochement, compared with 10 percent of Gazans. Although the differences were small, these relatively hardened attitudes in the West Bank were likely a result of tensions between Palestinians and Israeli settlers and soldiers in recent months. The survey’s finding that roughly half of Palestinians still support the two-state solution may offer some hope for peace in the long term, but the results do not inspire much confidence in short-term stability. The deep unpopularity of Palestinian leadership, in the West Bank in particular, calls into question the feasibility of reestablishing the Palestinian Authority’s control over Gaza, which some media outlets have suggested as the next step in reconstruction after Israel’s military campaign against Hamas is complete.
posted by mediareport at 2:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
cosmic owl I don't think anyone believes Israel is motivated by pure evil, people rarely are. But Israel IS strongly motivated by a refusal to consider options for long term peace that would include the Palestinians as equals either in their own nation or in Israel.
You describe the Israeli position very well, I think you've got it more or less stated in such a way that most Israelis would agree. But again, that's only a hopeless situation with no way out as long as you look at it from the POV that there can be no solution which includes Palestinains as equal partners.
I'm not sure how that sort of solution would work, and I'm not going to pretend it would be easy. But I do argue that Israel is not as limited in its possible actions as it seems to believe it is, and as many people here and elsewhere seem to believe it is.
I may very well be completely wrong, I'm certainly not here with a workable plan that will win me the Nobel Peace Prize. But I do think the idea that Israel is stuck with no options except eternal rockets from Hamas or genocide.
I believe that many, possibly most, Israelis DO think that. As you note, polling even among left leaning Israelis has shown a drastic shift towards thinking there is no non-genocidal resolution.
And I am certain that the israeli government will take one of the various paths towards genocide, the only real question is how vicious and brutal the approach will be and how total the destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza will be. Will it mostly be eviction or death, will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
But I swear that's not the only path available, it's just the only one that the govenrment of Israel is willing to consider. All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
You describe the Israeli position very well, I think you've got it more or less stated in such a way that most Israelis would agree. But again, that's only a hopeless situation with no way out as long as you look at it from the POV that there can be no solution which includes Palestinains as equal partners.
I'm not sure how that sort of solution would work, and I'm not going to pretend it would be easy. But I do argue that Israel is not as limited in its possible actions as it seems to believe it is, and as many people here and elsewhere seem to believe it is.
I may very well be completely wrong, I'm certainly not here with a workable plan that will win me the Nobel Peace Prize. But I do think the idea that Israel is stuck with no options except eternal rockets from Hamas or genocide.
I believe that many, possibly most, Israelis DO think that. As you note, polling even among left leaning Israelis has shown a drastic shift towards thinking there is no non-genocidal resolution.
And I am certain that the israeli government will take one of the various paths towards genocide, the only real question is how vicious and brutal the approach will be and how total the destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza will be. Will it mostly be eviction or death, will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
But I swear that's not the only path available, it's just the only one that the govenrment of Israel is willing to consider. All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mediareport, I did check out the link and wondered if you know if there's more information on the breakdown of the question regarding two state solution vs. other options?
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2023
It's certainly the case that the set of possible solutions is larger than the set of solutions Israelis would be willing to accept. A one-state solution is pretty much off the table. There is a fundamental tension between Israel as a democracy and Israel as a Jewish state. I posted earlier in the thread about Arab Israelis, and I think I was too rosy there, which I regret — first, about how much integration there is, and second, about the extent to which a minority can possibly be equal citizens when it is imperative to the state they are citizens of that they remain a minority.
The only shred of hope I have for Israel and Palestine at all is the possibility of removing Netanyahu and the religious hardliners in his government. Netanyahu does not have a secure hold on power. Yesh Atid came somewhat close to forming a government and least included a halt to settlements and the resumption of peace talks in its platform. (I say included because everything is uncertain now.) But Israel has its own separate demographic problem, because the birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox is much higher than among the secular-to-Modern Orthodox population. This is a problem for a lot of reasons (it's not good for the economy or for IDF enrollment), but politically it almost ensures a continued rightward trend. Zionists constantly repeat the refrain that there is no partner for peace. That has been more true and less true over time, and Netanyahu has certainly worked to ensure it is the case. As long as he's in power the Palestinians have no partner for peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The only shred of hope I have for Israel and Palestine at all is the possibility of removing Netanyahu and the religious hardliners in his government. Netanyahu does not have a secure hold on power. Yesh Atid came somewhat close to forming a government and least included a halt to settlements and the resumption of peace talks in its platform. (I say included because everything is uncertain now.) But Israel has its own separate demographic problem, because the birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox is much higher than among the secular-to-Modern Orthodox population. This is a problem for a lot of reasons (it's not good for the economy or for IDF enrollment), but politically it almost ensures a continued rightward trend. Zionists constantly repeat the refrain that there is no partner for peace. That has been more true and less true over time, and Netanyahu has certainly worked to ensure it is the case. As long as he's in power the Palestinians have no partner for peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I did check out the link and wondered if you know if there's more information on the breakdown of the question regarding two state solution vs. other options?
There is indeed! In the previous thread, after Nancy Lebovitz posted the Foreign Policy article, snuffleupagus posted a link to the Palestinian Center for Survey Research, which was part of the poll group. There's a *ton* of detail about the survey, which was conducted in December 2022, at that page. In that thread, I pulled out a few sections I thought were interesting, but admit I still have to get through the whole survey report (I will soon):
Findings show a slight drop in support among the Palestinians from 27% to 26% in 2022 (compared to 42% in mid-2018). But the drop in support among Israeli Jews is higher, from 36% to 31% during the same period (compared to 45% in mid-2018). But support for this permanent peace agreement package among Israeli Arabs rebounded significantly from a low point of 49% two years ago to 62% today. In total, 37% of Israelis support the detailed agreement.
[...] The peace package comprises: a de-militarized Palestinian state, an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange, family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty, Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic, the bilateral agreement will be part of a larger peace agreement with all Arab states, the US and major Arab countries will ensure full implementation of the agreement by both sides, and the end of the conflict and claims. Fifty four percent of all Israelis (62% of Israeli Jews) and 72% of Palestinians are opposed to this two-state comprehensive package.
That the 2-state solution proposed in the survey *starts with* "a de-militarized Palestinian state" seems to be already quite a concession on the Palestinian side, given Israel's massive advantage in arms. That the 2-state solution still got almost 1/3 of Palestinians in favor seems worth noting.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
There is indeed! In the previous thread, after Nancy Lebovitz posted the Foreign Policy article, snuffleupagus posted a link to the Palestinian Center for Survey Research, which was part of the poll group. There's a *ton* of detail about the survey, which was conducted in December 2022, at that page. In that thread, I pulled out a few sections I thought were interesting, but admit I still have to get through the whole survey report (I will soon):
Findings show a slight drop in support among the Palestinians from 27% to 26% in 2022 (compared to 42% in mid-2018). But the drop in support among Israeli Jews is higher, from 36% to 31% during the same period (compared to 45% in mid-2018). But support for this permanent peace agreement package among Israeli Arabs rebounded significantly from a low point of 49% two years ago to 62% today. In total, 37% of Israelis support the detailed agreement.
[...] The peace package comprises: a de-militarized Palestinian state, an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange, family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty, Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic, the bilateral agreement will be part of a larger peace agreement with all Arab states, the US and major Arab countries will ensure full implementation of the agreement by both sides, and the end of the conflict and claims. Fifty four percent of all Israelis (62% of Israeli Jews) and 72% of Palestinians are opposed to this two-state comprehensive package.
That the 2-state solution proposed in the survey *starts with* "a de-militarized Palestinian state" seems to be already quite a concession on the Palestinian side, given Israel's massive advantage in arms. That the 2-state solution still got almost 1/3 of Palestinians in favor seems worth noting.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hamas releases video of Israeli hostages in Gaza demanding Netanyahu agree to prisoner swap
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:56 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:56 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
Huh. I guess that means the Likud party meant to slaughter all Palestinians when it started its 1977 party platform with the following as its first sentence:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer? I certainly remember hearing it in my Reform synagogue's Hebrew School in the early 70s and elsewhere (UCI camp in Zionsville Indiana, anyone?).
But don't take my word for it. From an op-ed in Ha'aretz on December 16, 2018: Hamas Owes Its 'Palestine From the River to the Sea' Slogan to Zionism (archive):
The irony is that it wasn’t the Palestinians, but the Zionists, who first invented this "from the river to the sea" mantra. And that was nearly half a century before the First Intifada and the birth of Hamas...In other words, the Zionists demanded not only a Palestine stretching "from the river to the sea," but also one that would include both banks of the Jordan River, which they claimed was a fair representation of historic and biblical Eretz Israel.
When shortly after the British Mandate drew an imperial line along the Jordan River separating Palestine from Transjordan, the Zionist Organization was compelled to narrow down its imagined boundaries to "west of the river, east of the sea."
...In a nutshell, the notion of "Palestine from the river to the sea" is nothing but the boundaries of Eretz Israel as imagined by the first Zionists...One can thus entertain the chilling irony that Hamas owes its cherished slogan to the Zionists. After all, what is "free Palestine from the river to the sea" but a utopian parody of "Greater Israel"?
posted by mediareport at 5:09 PM on October 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
Huh. I guess that means the Likud party meant to slaughter all Palestinians when it started its 1977 party platform with the following as its first sentence:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer? I certainly remember hearing it in my Reform synagogue's Hebrew School in the early 70s and elsewhere (UCI camp in Zionsville Indiana, anyone?).
But don't take my word for it. From an op-ed in Ha'aretz on December 16, 2018: Hamas Owes Its 'Palestine From the River to the Sea' Slogan to Zionism (archive):
The irony is that it wasn’t the Palestinians, but the Zionists, who first invented this "from the river to the sea" mantra. And that was nearly half a century before the First Intifada and the birth of Hamas...In other words, the Zionists demanded not only a Palestine stretching "from the river to the sea," but also one that would include both banks of the Jordan River, which they claimed was a fair representation of historic and biblical Eretz Israel.
When shortly after the British Mandate drew an imperial line along the Jordan River separating Palestine from Transjordan, the Zionist Organization was compelled to narrow down its imagined boundaries to "west of the river, east of the sea."
...In a nutshell, the notion of "Palestine from the river to the sea" is nothing but the boundaries of Eretz Israel as imagined by the first Zionists...One can thus entertain the chilling irony that Hamas owes its cherished slogan to the Zionists. After all, what is "free Palestine from the river to the sea" but a utopian parody of "Greater Israel"?
posted by mediareport at 5:09 PM on October 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
perhaps but I think jacen is onto the right way and force can be used. United States has two carrier groups in position. commander-in-chief of the armed Forces president United States could make phone call. president may decide to confer with the United Nations and separately with other nations to send a small flotilla with a list of what would 3 million people need clothing, food, water, engineers, construction crews, power plants.... but we're going to go ahead and start sending things over there anyways
and we hope that our airlifts won't be impeded. Also inform Israel that we pretty much know what they know militarily and pretty much on the intelligence scale, our tax dollars have made sure of that then I'd ask anybody in the International community if they have a problem with that. Bibi has already isolated his country, I'm beginning to think he will do anything to stay out of jail.
Operation: Freindly Giant.
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
perhaps but I think jacen is onto the right way and force can be used. United States has two carrier groups in position. commander-in-chief of the armed Forces president United States could make phone call. president may decide to confer with the United Nations and separately with other nations to send a small flotilla with a list of what would 3 million people need clothing, food, water, engineers, construction crews, power plants.... but we're going to go ahead and start sending things over there anyways
and we hope that our airlifts won't be impeded. Also inform Israel that we pretty much know what they know militarily and pretty much on the intelligence scale, our tax dollars have made sure of that then I'd ask anybody in the International community if they have a problem with that. Bibi has already isolated his country, I'm beginning to think he will do anything to stay out of jail.
Operation: Freindly Giant.
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links
I think one thing some folks aren't necessarily grappling with is that it doesn't take a majority, or even a big minority, of Palestinians to present a deadly threat to Jews in a hypothetical future non-Israeli state. ISIL was not a huge faction as a percentage of the population in Syria and Iraq but they caused horrific destruction to the population.
So it's obviously not inevitable that Jews in a Palestinian state would be in grave danger. But it is reasonable to think that they would be in a state where Hamas is still a viable entity. Any path to a one state solution has to go through either the destruction or marginalization of Hamas, just as it requires the marginalization of extreme Zionism.
posted by Justinian at 5:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think one thing some folks aren't necessarily grappling with is that it doesn't take a majority, or even a big minority, of Palestinians to present a deadly threat to Jews in a hypothetical future non-Israeli state. ISIL was not a huge faction as a percentage of the population in Syria and Iraq but they caused horrific destruction to the population.
So it's obviously not inevitable that Jews in a Palestinian state would be in grave danger. But it is reasonable to think that they would be in a state where Hamas is still a viable entity. Any path to a one state solution has to go through either the destruction or marginalization of Hamas, just as it requires the marginalization of extreme Zionism.
posted by Justinian at 5:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
As evidence, the most hardline Zionists aren't a majority in Israel either and yet look at how Palestinians are being treated! "Most XXXX don't believe Y" doesn't mean Y isn't a realistic threat, either to Israelis or Palestinians for different values of Y.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert, Justinian, in this interview linked and quoted in the previous thread:
At 21:30, the host asks if the 2-state concept is finished, and Olmert laughs and says "No. No. Look. There is no other solution."
It has to be a 2-state solution. Which means Israeli government officials willing to take the risk that racist right-wing fundamentalist terrorists will try to assassinate them just like they did Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, four months after this happened:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
posted by mediareport at 5:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
At 21:30, the host asks if the 2-state concept is finished, and Olmert laughs and says "No. No. Look. There is no other solution."
It has to be a 2-state solution. Which means Israeli government officials willing to take the risk that racist right-wing fundamentalist terrorists will try to assassinate them just like they did Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, four months after this happened:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
posted by mediareport at 5:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer?
Is this not common knowledge? You don't have to be a Jew to know this, certainly.
posted by ssg at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is this not common knowledge? You don't have to be a Jew to know this, certainly.
posted by ssg at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought it was such common knowledge that my initial thought upon hearing it was "Palestinians are reclaiming the phrase from the Zionists, interesting." But that knowledge seems to be absent in almost all of the current furious discourse about the phrase. "IT'S A CALL FOR GENOCIDE!" is getting lots of traction, while "It's a Zionist phrase that's been around forever' isn't, at least as far as I've seen.
posted by mediareport at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
posted by Justinian at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2023
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
posted by Justinian at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2023
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
Maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I feel like the current horribleness at least is showing people that the other options are all failing, so maybe more people will come around to the reality of the need for a more just two-state outcome.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I feel like the current horribleness at least is showing people that the other options are all failing, so maybe more people will come around to the reality of the need for a more just two-state outcome.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The war is a high risk of spreading. If we can mostly keep it contained to Israel / Palestine and Israel can complete the main ground operation quickly then Biden and other leaders are going to need to get the PA and Israel to come to the two state deal. If fear the war will spread and instead of thousands, civilian deaths will get into the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.
posted by interogative mood at 7:08 PM on October 30, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 7:08 PM on October 30, 2023
The war is a high risk of spreading.
Netanyahu could reduce that risk significantly by stopping the bombing, calling off the ground invasion, and focusing on getting the hostages back.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Netanyahu could reduce that risk significantly by stopping the bombing, calling off the ground invasion, and focusing on getting the hostages back.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Financial Times Editorial Board has called for a ceasefire. Unless I've missed something, this is the first major English-language media outlet to do so.
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel withdraws diplomats from Turkey
Turkey is a longstanding member of NATO. It's really impossible to overstate what a disaster this is for the US and the Biden administration in particular.
1) Since 2022 the Biden admin has been working to strengthen NATO against Russia. This pretty much undoes all of those efforts and progress. Meanwhile Ukraine is bascially forgotten after its failed summer offensive.
2) Since Trump's idiotic decision to pull out of the Iran deal, US Middle East policy has basically been centered around isolating Iran and its allies (including Hamas) by promoting normalization between Israel and other Arab and Muslim states in the region. That effort has now collapsed.
3) Since the Obama administration, the US has been trying to disengage from the Middle East to free up resources for countering China's percieved amibitions up to and including trying to invade Tawain. Everything from the TPP to the IRA to the Chips act has been part of efforts to prepare for this conflict. The Israel-Hamas war guarnteese that US will need to devote significant military, diplomatic, and financial resources to the region for years to come.
4) The war also pits significant elements of Biden's base against each other. On the one side there are significant Muslim committees in electorally important states like Michigan along with younger voters who are significantly more likely to be sympathetic to Palestinians while on the other side there are older voters and wealthy Democratic party donors who are more likely to be sympathetic to Israel. I don't envy Biden because he's basically in a no win situation on this point; although, some more nuance would be beneficial from leading Demomcrats, for both their own sake and everyone elses.
5) Number 4 just increases the chance that the most incompentant and thuggish members of the American elite - the Republicans - will gain power in 2024. Compared to 2016 and even 2000, they'd face an infinetly more dangerous international environment with a much weakened American position compared to other actors. Hence, their inevitable screw ups would have potentials for harm to America and the world exceeding even that of the diastrous Iraq War.
posted by eagles123 at 7:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Turkey is a longstanding member of NATO. It's really impossible to overstate what a disaster this is for the US and the Biden administration in particular.
1) Since 2022 the Biden admin has been working to strengthen NATO against Russia. This pretty much undoes all of those efforts and progress. Meanwhile Ukraine is bascially forgotten after its failed summer offensive.
2) Since Trump's idiotic decision to pull out of the Iran deal, US Middle East policy has basically been centered around isolating Iran and its allies (including Hamas) by promoting normalization between Israel and other Arab and Muslim states in the region. That effort has now collapsed.
3) Since the Obama administration, the US has been trying to disengage from the Middle East to free up resources for countering China's percieved amibitions up to and including trying to invade Tawain. Everything from the TPP to the IRA to the Chips act has been part of efforts to prepare for this conflict. The Israel-Hamas war guarnteese that US will need to devote significant military, diplomatic, and financial resources to the region for years to come.
4) The war also pits significant elements of Biden's base against each other. On the one side there are significant Muslim committees in electorally important states like Michigan along with younger voters who are significantly more likely to be sympathetic to Palestinians while on the other side there are older voters and wealthy Democratic party donors who are more likely to be sympathetic to Israel. I don't envy Biden because he's basically in a no win situation on this point; although, some more nuance would be beneficial from leading Demomcrats, for both their own sake and everyone elses.
5) Number 4 just increases the chance that the most incompentant and thuggish members of the American elite - the Republicans - will gain power in 2024. Compared to 2016 and even 2000, they'd face an infinetly more dangerous international environment with a much weakened American position compared to other actors. Hence, their inevitable screw ups would have potentials for harm to America and the world exceeding even that of the diastrous Iraq War.
posted by eagles123 at 7:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you get a paywall when you open the Financial Times editorial, google "The catastrophe unfolding in Gaza" (with or without quotation marks) to read it for free. The Financial Times' editorial board makes a case that's hard to challenge, and the editorial is well worth reading.
posted by virago at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by virago at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
also on the FT: Netanyahu lobbied EU to pressure Egypt into accepting Gaza refugees (ungated)
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu sought to convince European leaders to put pressure on Egypt into accepting refugees from Gaza, according to people briefed on the discussions.posted by BungaDunga at 8:43 PM on October 30, 2023
The idea, which he put forward in meetings with European officials last week, was floated by countries including the Czech Republic and Austria in private discussions that led up to a summit of EU leaders on Thursday and Friday, those people told the Financial Times.
The war is a high risk of spreading.
Israel's Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, was certainly trying to drum up a broader war at this afternoon's Security Council meeting. His speech starts about 3:29:30 into the stream for the 9462nd meeting this afternoon.
A few choice bits that I can't hear as anything but warmongering towards Iran include:
posted by bcd at 9:02 PM on October 30, 2023
Israel's Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, was certainly trying to drum up a broader war at this afternoon's Security Council meeting. His speech starts about 3:29:30 into the stream for the 9462nd meeting this afternoon.
A few choice bits that I can't hear as anything but warmongering towards Iran include:
Yet Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas, is no Adolf Hitler. He is not the Fuhrer. He is not the leader of this genocidal death cult, hell-bent on world domination. That role, dear colleagues, and you know it very well, is held by the supreme leader of Iran, the bloodthirsty Ayatollah Khamenei.There's a lot of other content. Midway between those two quotes was this piece:
Hitler's Third Reich was envisioned to be a thousand-year empire stretching across continents, just as Khamenei envisions his radical Shiite hegemony to stretch across the region and beyond. The Ayatollah regime is the modern Nazi regime. And their death squads include Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Houthis, the Revolutionary Guard, and other savage jihadists. Instead of shouting, "Sieg Heil", these radical Nazi Islamists scream, "Death to Israel", "Death to America", "Death to England". You could see it on Khamenei's Twitter account.
...
In the days leading up to and following the October 7th massacre, Simchat Torah massacre, the Fuhrer Khamenei continued to spread his poisonous genocidal ideologies with the world. He tweeted about the end of Israel. He said that whoever normalizes relations with Israel would lose. He claimed that Israel is dying. And on the day of the massacre, he called for the eradication of Israel alongside a video of Israelis running for their lives as his Hamas Einsatzgruppen mowed them down with machine guns.
Just like my grandparents and the grandparents of millions of Jews, from now on, my team and I will wear yellow stars. We will wear this star until you condemn the atrocities of Hamas and demand the immediate release of our hostages. We walk with a yellow star as a symbol of pride, a reminder that we swore to fight back, to defend ourselves.After which they stood and affixed yellow stars to their jackets. Not being Jewish, I don't feel I have the right to comment on that one.
posted by bcd at 9:02 PM on October 30, 2023
Netenyahu and his hard right pals have apparently been kicking around the idea of expelling all the Palestinians from Gaza into Sinai according to this leaked document.
posted by interogative mood at 9:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I saw a long, interesting thread from a human rights activist a few days ago that argued there's no way Sisi would accept that, and argued as well that Biden even suggesting it was on the table for Egypt in itself seriously damaged the U.S.-Egypt relationship - asking Sisi to agree to slit his own throat. Here's a mid-thread tweet from that part of the discussion (also mirrored on Nitter.net so you can follow along without having to visit Twitter). A sampling:
Here's the thing - Egypt would *never* accept this, as a matter of geopolitical imperative. If 2 million Palestinians are displaced into Sinai, it could be fatal to Sisi's regime (not exaggerating when I say the regime could fall). And it won't even stop Hamas
Hamas already has ~2500 smuggling tunnels across the Gaza-Egypt border + ties with smugglers in Sinai. If Sinai becomes the new Gaza, Hamas will just start to rebuild on the Egyptian side where they'd also have the advantage of a recruiting pool of millions of angry Egyptians...
Jordan too would *never* allow it. In Jordan the fear is that if population transfer happens in Gaza then the West Bank is next. Historical note: Jordan saw a 10-month civil war in the 1970s when Palestinian militants stationed themselves there to fight Israel
The whole thread is worth a look.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Here's the thing - Egypt would *never* accept this, as a matter of geopolitical imperative. If 2 million Palestinians are displaced into Sinai, it could be fatal to Sisi's regime (not exaggerating when I say the regime could fall). And it won't even stop Hamas
Hamas already has ~2500 smuggling tunnels across the Gaza-Egypt border + ties with smugglers in Sinai. If Sinai becomes the new Gaza, Hamas will just start to rebuild on the Egyptian side where they'd also have the advantage of a recruiting pool of millions of angry Egyptians...
Jordan too would *never* allow it. In Jordan the fear is that if population transfer happens in Gaza then the West Bank is next. Historical note: Jordan saw a 10-month civil war in the 1970s when Palestinian militants stationed themselves there to fight Israel
The whole thread is worth a look.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Lest there be any doubt, like most of his population I think Khamenei is a bad guy. He has certainly been funding Hamas. But, that said, a hot war between Israel and Iran would be catastrophicly bad for everyone.
posted by bcd at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is pretty obvious why Netanyahu is so keen to see the Gazans cross an international border. Fuck that.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:04 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 10:04 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
It is just such a dumb and awful idea. At least some
Israeli journalists and human rights activists were brace enough to expose this dumbfuckery. Netanyahu will not be able to solve this crisis, he is just too much like Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld after 9-11. The whole country is pulling together and they decide to jam through doing Gulf War 2, start torturing people in Gitmo and all the other dumb shit that did not make us safer.
posted by interogative mood at 10:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israeli journalists and human rights activists were brace enough to expose this dumbfuckery. Netanyahu will not be able to solve this crisis, he is just too much like Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld after 9-11. The whole country is pulling together and they decide to jam through doing Gulf War 2, start torturing people in Gitmo and all the other dumb shit that did not make us safer.
posted by interogative mood at 10:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lest there be any doubt, like most of his population I think Khamenei is a bad guy. He has certainly been funding Hamas.
I heard a Netanyahu staffer from Israel talk on the BBC about Hamas terrorists and Hamas animals and this and that, but not once, not a single time did I hear her admit that her boss paid Hamas to keep Palestinians imprisoned, divided, and powerless. Not once did I hear her admit that Hamas was able to commit acts of murder because it was given political and logistical power by her boss. Just once, I would love to hear from Israeli right-wing extremists that they are partially responsible for the deaths of their fellow citizens, by their own actions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I heard a Netanyahu staffer from Israel talk on the BBC about Hamas terrorists and Hamas animals and this and that, but not once, not a single time did I hear her admit that her boss paid Hamas to keep Palestinians imprisoned, divided, and powerless. Not once did I hear her admit that Hamas was able to commit acts of murder because it was given political and logistical power by her boss. Just once, I would love to hear from Israeli right-wing extremists that they are partially responsible for the deaths of their fellow citizens, by their own actions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
First hostage rescued in Gaza (The Guardian) - Ori Megidish, aged 19, who was serving as a lookout observer in the IDF.
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I'm honestly surprised at the news. In the 2016 offensive into Lebanon (Wiki) to rescue the 2 hostages that Hezbollah captured, the Israeli army suffered 121 deaths and 1,244 wounded and ultimately failed to rescue the hostages.
A ceasefire was called to halt the operation - UNSCR 1701. Israel would halt their ground operation and Hezbollah would be disarmed by the Lebanese government with the help of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). Lebanon and Hezbollah signed the resolution and pressured Israel to sign it as well.
In the days following the ceasefire on Aug 14 2006, Hezbollah launched dozens of rockets and mortars at Israeli positions inside southern Lebanon, which Israel did not respond to. The withdrawal would be competed by Oct 1 2006.
Within a year both Lebanon and UNIFIL declared that they would not disarm Hezbollah, in violation of UNSCR 1701. Hezbollah declared their operation a one-sided victory.
To me, it's understandable why Israel has zero interest in participating in any ceasefire stopping them from achieving their objectives, nor any trust in their neighbours or the UN.
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I'm honestly surprised at the news. In the 2016 offensive into Lebanon (Wiki) to rescue the 2 hostages that Hezbollah captured, the Israeli army suffered 121 deaths and 1,244 wounded and ultimately failed to rescue the hostages.
A ceasefire was called to halt the operation - UNSCR 1701. Israel would halt their ground operation and Hezbollah would be disarmed by the Lebanese government with the help of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). Lebanon and Hezbollah signed the resolution and pressured Israel to sign it as well.
In the days following the ceasefire on Aug 14 2006, Hezbollah launched dozens of rockets and mortars at Israeli positions inside southern Lebanon, which Israel did not respond to. The withdrawal would be competed by Oct 1 2006.
Within a year both Lebanon and UNIFIL declared that they would not disarm Hezbollah, in violation of UNSCR 1701. Hezbollah declared their operation a one-sided victory.
To me, it's understandable why Israel has zero interest in participating in any ceasefire stopping them from achieving their objectives, nor any trust in their neighbours or the UN.
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
After which they stood and affixed yellow stars to their jackets. Not being Jewish, I don't feel I have the right to comment on that one.
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
posted by dusty potato at 5:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
posted by dusty potato at 5:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Here are some actions folks in the US can take today to advocate for a ceasefire and end to the occupation:
-Call your reps at every level. Here's a script for federal reps and an app that will place the calls and connect you one after another. Here's another script w/ other materials. Here's a script for demanding an end to US military aid to Israel.
-Find out if you have a nearby SJP chapter and ask them what they need. Note that many students who are members of SJP are being doxxed, harassed, and threatened. If you're an alum of an institution with an SJP chapter, contact your alma mater to let them know you support SJP and expect the university to protect students from harassment and retaliation.
-Make plans to go to DC this weekend for the march, or help others get there. Check with local organizers from JVP, MECA, and other groups to find out if there are local actions in your district this week in the lead-up to the DC march.
-More templates for contacting your reps, organizing within your friend/family network, and joining protests nationwide. There's also a tool for finding out how much your community is contributing to funding the genocide.
Free ebook: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights by Omar Barghouti. Resources from Palestine Legal on the right to boycott.
posted by ohneat at 5:26 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
-Call your reps at every level. Here's a script for federal reps and an app that will place the calls and connect you one after another. Here's another script w/ other materials. Here's a script for demanding an end to US military aid to Israel.
-Find out if you have a nearby SJP chapter and ask them what they need. Note that many students who are members of SJP are being doxxed, harassed, and threatened. If you're an alum of an institution with an SJP chapter, contact your alma mater to let them know you support SJP and expect the university to protect students from harassment and retaliation.
-Make plans to go to DC this weekend for the march, or help others get there. Check with local organizers from JVP, MECA, and other groups to find out if there are local actions in your district this week in the lead-up to the DC march.
-More templates for contacting your reps, organizing within your friend/family network, and joining protests nationwide. There's also a tool for finding out how much your community is contributing to funding the genocide.
Free ebook: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights by Omar Barghouti. Resources from Palestine Legal on the right to boycott.
posted by ohneat at 5:26 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I mean, four hostages were released through negotiations via Qatar, which eventually negotiated for all hostages to be released in exchange for all Palestinian prisoners being released, and the families of the hostages supported this deal. And yet it still didn't happen. This Twitter thread explains who those Palestinian prisoners are, and the system of "justice." It's pretty grim. Anyway, if I was a family member of a hostage, I can't imagine how angry I'd be that Netanyahu didn't take the deal.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, four hostages were released through negotiations via Qatar, which eventually negotiated for all hostages to be released in exchange for all Palestinian prisoners being released, and the families of the hostages supported this deal. And yet it still didn't happen. This Twitter thread explains who those Palestinian prisoners are, and the system of "justice." It's pretty grim. Anyway, if I was a family member of a hostage, I can't imagine how angry I'd be that Netanyahu didn't take the deal.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Besides calling reps and writing into the NYTimes editorial board to call for a ceasefire, do people have other ideas? Does it make sense to email people in the State Department, and who? Other worthwhile people/institutions to put pressure on?
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 AM on October 31, 2023
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 AM on October 31, 2023
Make sure you have protected employment if you go public with anything. You will be harassed, doxxed, fired, for speaking out against Israeli violence, esp. if you are Arab/Muslim.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
It is cruel, at a time when there is a worrying depletion of knowledge about the Holocaust, to witness Holocaust memory being applied as a double-edged sword. What should be a universalist set of lessons applied to atrocities everywhere is being warped to validate violent, ethnonationalist objectives. As the hundreds of Jewish demonstrators and allies who filled the U.S. Capitol last week to protest the Gaza war stressed, “never again means never again for anyone.”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:43 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Indeed, if the legacy of the Holocaust is interpreted to present Israel with carte blanche to cage, bomb, starve, dehydrate, and otherwise exert necropolitical power over the 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza — almost half of them children — then “never again” does not merely ring hollow. It becomes a call for unchecked violence, a war cry in an eliminationist campaign of retaliation.
This “Holocaustization” of what is happening in Israel-Palestine deposits all of us — Jews, Palestinians, those in the region and in the diaspora — on a dangerous precipice. To operate within that framework, according to its internal logic, is to condemn us to a zero-sum war whose terms are clear and devastating: a conflict that can only ever be resolved by the annihilation of one side or the other. It is a recipe for perpetual bloodshed — an exhortation, in the words of Netanyahu, to “live forever by the sword.”
Save the Children international: 3,195 children killed in #Gaza in just three weeks has surpassed the annual number of children killed across the world's conflict zones since 2019. We are calling for an immediate ceasefire.
I never want to hear anything about proportionality. I never want to hear about Israeli 'restraint'. I never want to hear about double standards. Let that fact simmer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I never want to hear anything about proportionality. I never want to hear about Israeli 'restraint'. I never want to hear about double standards. Let that fact simmer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
And yet it still didn't happen.
My reading of the situation is that there's very little appetite for or likelihood of any prisoner exchanges.
Yahya Sinwar (Wiki) was one of the prisoners exchanged for Gilead Shalit in 2011. He was serving multiple life terms (Washington Post) for his role as the mastermind in the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers. In 2008 while in prison in Israel he was operated on to remove a tumor in his brain to save his life. After being exchanged in 2011, he was elected as leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in 2017, and undoubtedly played a major role in planning and coordinating the Oct 7 attacks. He is currently the 2nd most senior person in the Hamas organization and was designated a terrorist by the United States in 2015.
posted by xdvesper at 5:47 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
My reading of the situation is that there's very little appetite for or likelihood of any prisoner exchanges.
Yahya Sinwar (Wiki) was one of the prisoners exchanged for Gilead Shalit in 2011. He was serving multiple life terms (Washington Post) for his role as the mastermind in the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers. In 2008 while in prison in Israel he was operated on to remove a tumor in his brain to save his life. After being exchanged in 2011, he was elected as leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in 2017, and undoubtedly played a major role in planning and coordinating the Oct 7 attacks. He is currently the 2nd most senior person in the Hamas organization and was designated a terrorist by the United States in 2015.
posted by xdvesper at 5:47 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whilest the majority of msm has eyes are on Gaza, the UN says as many as 120 Palestinians killed in West Bank since October 7th
Channel 4 news. Matt Frei
posted by adamvasco at 5:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Channel 4 news. Matt Frei
posted by adamvasco at 5:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
mediareport, thank you for sharing that thread. Israel's response is a catastrophe in every respect.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:14 AM on October 31, 2023
posted by cosmic owl at 6:14 AM on October 31, 2023
I'll add that the Twitter account that wrote that thread mediareport linked to (İyad el-Baghdadi), is one I've been following and he's been consistently informative/insightful since 10/7 - I had linked to one of his thread in the previous post on I/P. Anyway, if you're looking for accounts to follow, I recommend him.
posted by coffeecat at 6:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 6:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
By chance I was looking around on Youtube for anthropology-related lectures/podcasts (any topic), when I recognized the name of the anthropologist introducing this talk at UC Irvine from Oct. 18: The Israel-Hamas War. It turned out to be a general background talk by a political scientist, but the Q&A goes further. The speaker also gave this talk back in 2021: Israel, Hamas, and the Gaza Complex--again mostly a historical summary. I'm not sure what sources he's following, but his Youtube channel has daily updates on the news--it seems like he's summarizing dozens of news sources at a fast pace in 10-12 minutes a day.
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
At this point, I don't really see anything changing the course of events in Gaza. While I am sure there IS a path out that isn't genocidal, I don't know what exactly it might be and it would take a staggeringly charismatic and world class orator to convince the powers involved to even try. And such a person doesn't seem to exist at the pressent moment in history.
More relevant to Israel's future actions, everyone knows that "never again" has been a filthy lie since the moment it was first uttered. The international community has witnessed dozens of post-Holocaust genocides and counting by the most generous possible standards, has actually attempted to intervene and prevent three or four. And no nation that committed genocide post-Holocaust has ever faced any real penalties from the international community. Trade always normalizes after a short time, if it is interrupted at all, and in a few years no one ever talks about it again.
I don't, really, think Netanyahu wants to commit genocide. But I do think he doens't see an alternative. And I think that like me, he's certain if he does commit genocide it won't have any real impact on Israel's international positon, trade, aid, and so on. A few hippies will complain, everyone else will carry on as normal, same as has happened with every other genocide since 1945.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
More relevant to Israel's future actions, everyone knows that "never again" has been a filthy lie since the moment it was first uttered. The international community has witnessed dozens of post-Holocaust genocides and counting by the most generous possible standards, has actually attempted to intervene and prevent three or four. And no nation that committed genocide post-Holocaust has ever faced any real penalties from the international community. Trade always normalizes after a short time, if it is interrupted at all, and in a few years no one ever talks about it again.
I don't, really, think Netanyahu wants to commit genocide. But I do think he doens't see an alternative. And I think that like me, he's certain if he does commit genocide it won't have any real impact on Israel's international positon, trade, aid, and so on. A few hippies will complain, everyone else will carry on as normal, same as has happened with every other genocide since 1945.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
I can't help reading this and thinking of this piece of Israeli society that I just got linked to (an ongoing problem, and this is one of the more recent articles)One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say: Yet among Israel’s estimated 165,000 survivors, roughly one in three lives in poverty, according to a survivors’ advocacy group. Though survivors receive government stipends, many still depend on food donations organized by Israeli charities like Chasdei Naomi.
“The ones who really need to be responsible for taking care of Holocaust survivors is the state of Israel. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist,” said Tshuva Cabra, the group’s head of donations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't help reading this and thinking of this piece of Israeli society that I just got linked to (an ongoing problem, and this is one of the more recent articles)One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say: Yet among Israel’s estimated 165,000 survivors, roughly one in three lives in poverty, according to a survivors’ advocacy group. Though survivors receive government stipends, many still depend on food donations organized by Israeli charities like Chasdei Naomi.
“The ones who really need to be responsible for taking care of Holocaust survivors is the state of Israel. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist,” said Tshuva Cabra, the group’s head of donations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Besides calling reps and writing into the NYTimes editorial board to call for a ceasefire, do people have other ideas?
-Contact your state/local Democratic Party to let them know this is a critical issue for you
-Find out whether your state or city has passed or is considering antiBDS legislation and advocate against it
-Find out which orgs in your area advocate for the Palestinian diaspora and find out what they need to help Palestinians in your town or state
-Join a local public meeting or write a letter to the editor voicing your opinion
-Start a reading and action group with your friends that focuses on Palestinian authors (discuss the book and eg write letters to your reps)
-Speak at your house of worship about the ongoing genocide and what action you believe your faith demands of you in this moment
-Organize. Organize. Organize. The resistance and solidarity and power we’re seeing now across the globe is possible because people have been organizing for Palestinian liberation for years, even when it didn’t dominate the news. Get involved; build community. It has value beyond the immediate demand for a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
-Contact your state/local Democratic Party to let them know this is a critical issue for you
-Find out whether your state or city has passed or is considering antiBDS legislation and advocate against it
-Find out which orgs in your area advocate for the Palestinian diaspora and find out what they need to help Palestinians in your town or state
-Join a local public meeting or write a letter to the editor voicing your opinion
-Start a reading and action group with your friends that focuses on Palestinian authors (discuss the book and eg write letters to your reps)
-Speak at your house of worship about the ongoing genocide and what action you believe your faith demands of you in this moment
-Organize. Organize. Organize. The resistance and solidarity and power we’re seeing now across the globe is possible because people have been organizing for Palestinian liberation for years, even when it didn’t dominate the news. Get involved; build community. It has value beyond the immediate demand for a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Proportionality has nothing to do with war. As if there is something moral in the notion of one side kills a thousand people, so the other side can kill a thousand people. How many Americans died at Pearl Harbor and in the Japanese invasion of the Philippines? How many Japanese children did America kill during WW2?
Hamas is the government of Gaza, they declared war on Israel. Israel has answered. It is horrible, awful and terrible. There should be a ceasefire and negotiations; but it isn’t going to happen because Hamas has used every prior ceasefire as an opportunity to rearm and reload and Netanyahu isn’t going to negotiate in good faith even if something changed. Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
So there will still he war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness. The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
posted by interogative mood at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas is the government of Gaza, they declared war on Israel. Israel has answered. It is horrible, awful and terrible. There should be a ceasefire and negotiations; but it isn’t going to happen because Hamas has used every prior ceasefire as an opportunity to rearm and reload and Netanyahu isn’t going to negotiate in good faith even if something changed. Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
So there will still he war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness. The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
posted by interogative mood at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Aw shucks, thats too bad!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
So there will still be war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness.
Got that, thanks.
What is the intended aim of the war? What comes after? Any thoughts as to how to prevent future conflict? "Eliminate Hamas" seems kind of non-specific, as obvious as it might be.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:39 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Got that, thanks.
What is the intended aim of the war? What comes after? Any thoughts as to how to prevent future conflict? "Eliminate Hamas" seems kind of non-specific, as obvious as it might be.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:39 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel just carpet bombed the Jabalia refugee camp. Reports are in that the casualties are from 100-500 people killed. The images are horrific. They dropped six bombs, all made in the US.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over. That’s what Japan did, that’s what the Germans did. If Hamas cares about Palestinians they need to end their war.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel can stop at any time too.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
They dropped six bombs, all made in the US.
And the UK. Palestine Action have occupied and shut down the headquarters and factories of Elbit Systems, the largest weapons supplier to Israel in both the US and the UK. I hope these actions continue as people wake up to what's happening on their doorsteps.
posted by fight or flight at 8:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
And the UK. Palestine Action have occupied and shut down the headquarters and factories of Elbit Systems, the largest weapons supplier to Israel in both the US and the UK. I hope these actions continue as people wake up to what's happening on their doorsteps.
posted by fight or flight at 8:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Video showing the aftermath of the bombing, houses shown as reference for the size of the crater one of these bombs made:
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jabalia Massacre |Trigger warning: people carrying dead/seriously wounded children in their arms.
“We have never encountered bodies so extensively burned & fragmented; even their bones were burned. 6 tons of explosives were thrown at an entire bloc”
Ahmed Kahlout, heading Palestinian rescue teams in northern Gaza about the massacre a while ago
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
First hostage rescued in Gaza (The Guardian) - Ori Megidish, aged 19, who was serving as a lookout observer in the IDF.
This is maybe a minor point, but it is a problem that Palestinians held in Israel are called prisoners and Israelis held in Gaza are called hostages. Civilians are hostages, military personnel are prisoners of war. Both sides hold some of each.
posted by ssg at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is maybe a minor point, but it is a problem that Palestinians held in Israel are called prisoners and Israelis held in Gaza are called hostages. Civilians are hostages, military personnel are prisoners of war. Both sides hold some of each.
posted by ssg at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Belgian MP claiming: "Belgian transport unions refuse to load and unload weapons going to Israel (both via ports and airports) and call for an immediate ceasefire." This is the way.
posted by kmt at 8:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by kmt at 8:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
If proportionality is out & brushed under "war is awful"... Why should we care about October 7th? Sounds like it equally justifies anything Hamas does or might desire to do.
I heartily disagree with this stance, but without prioritizing one set of lives over another for amoral reasons I can't think of a reason to apply this unevenly.
posted by CrystalDave at 8:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I heartily disagree with this stance, but without prioritizing one set of lives over another for amoral reasons I can't think of a reason to apply this unevenly.
posted by CrystalDave at 8:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1719381315688997334
Times of Gaza reporting 400+ killed. FWIW this crater looks MUCH larger than the the hospital bombing, and there's no ambiguity about who dropped the bomb.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on October 31, 2023
Times of Gaza reporting 400+ killed. FWIW this crater looks MUCH larger than the the hospital bombing, and there's no ambiguity about who dropped the bomb.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on October 31, 2023
Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
That sounds like a problem for Israelis to solve, if they really have a democracy and are not the dictatorship they appear to be devolving to.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
That sounds like a problem for Israelis to solve, if they really have a democracy and are not the dictatorship they appear to be devolving to.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Netanyahu and Gallant need to step down immediately. Whoever gave this order.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over.
I spent most of my adult life being broadly supportive of Israel and... no, I don't believe that. Not for an instant. Netanyahu wants genocide.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I spent most of my adult life being broadly supportive of Israel and... no, I don't believe that. Not for an instant. Netanyahu wants genocide.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
good god.
and good luck to anyone trying to do theodicy today cause let me tell you you've got an even tougher job than usual.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
and good luck to anyone trying to do theodicy today cause let me tell you you've got an even tougher job than usual.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Among the many tragic events: there was a Palestinian family in Gaza who had learned Hebrew and who ran radio station broadcasting news of Gaza in Hebrew. Their hope was it would encourage mutual understanding. An IDF bomb killed the whole family. I'm afraid I don't have a link - my source is a private FB page of a professor who works on I/P.
posted by coffeecat at 9:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 9:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Netanyahu wants genocide.
There is also good reason to suspect he wants a long protracted war. A poll I saw awhile ago was that while a majority of Israelis thought he should step down, a majority also thought he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:11 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
There is also good reason to suspect he wants a long protracted war. A poll I saw awhile ago was that while a majority of Israelis thought he should step down, a majority also thought he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:11 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. We understand this is a complex and difficult discussion where people have different stakes and involvement with it, but antisemitism, and discriminating comments will not be tolerated. Please refer to the Content Policy.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
Which he made some initial conciliatory noises about, and then immediately reversed. It's been my sense the whole time that he hopes a more isolated, militarized and reactionary Israel is the way he cements the judicial 'reforms,' which in turn are how he permanently escapes his corruption scandals and cements his hold on power.
He's Israel's Trump. He already should be in jail, not in power.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Which he made some initial conciliatory noises about, and then immediately reversed. It's been my sense the whole time that he hopes a more isolated, militarized and reactionary Israel is the way he cements the judicial 'reforms,' which in turn are how he permanently escapes his corruption scandals and cements his hold on power.
He's Israel's Trump. He already should be in jail, not in power.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Respectfully, I'd just like to add a few links to the conversation.
Not long after the first Hamas attacks, a Jewish Columbia student was assaulted on campus.
In a protest in Australia, crowds shouted “gas the Jews” and Jewish people were warned to stay away from the Opera House
In Tunisia, a historic Synagogue in Tunisia was burned and ransacked, and a historic Jewish tomb was defiled
A Jewish protester at Tulane was attacked with a flagpole and two others were assaulted.
At protests in Italy, masses sang “Open the borders so we can kill the Jews”
In Paris – a Jewish family’s door was set on fire because it had a mezuzah on the doorframe
Jewish schools and homes are being vandalized in Toronto
In Berlin, Molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Message boards at Cornell called for people to slit Jewish people's throats and rape them.
In Dagestan, a lynch mob stormed a hotel and the airport looking for Jews - it was not "just a demonstration."
Anti-semitic incidents have risen exponentially around the world, and are up 400% in the US.
The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
Here’s a both-sides article, because violent Islamophobia is also on the rise and I’m not trying to play oppression Olympics – there’s already enough of that here in the other direction.
I intentionally chose only non-Israeli and non-Jewish sources, so as not to invite the ‘Israelis / Jews are lying liars’ responses to every attack so far (not directly quoting anyone here, just paraphrasing what’s happening pretty much everywhere when attacks on Jews are reported).
This thread is appalling.
posted by Mchelly at 9:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not long after the first Hamas attacks, a Jewish Columbia student was assaulted on campus.
In a protest in Australia, crowds shouted “gas the Jews” and Jewish people were warned to stay away from the Opera House
In Tunisia, a historic Synagogue in Tunisia was burned and ransacked, and a historic Jewish tomb was defiled
A Jewish protester at Tulane was attacked with a flagpole and two others were assaulted.
At protests in Italy, masses sang “Open the borders so we can kill the Jews”
In Paris – a Jewish family’s door was set on fire because it had a mezuzah on the doorframe
Jewish schools and homes are being vandalized in Toronto
In Berlin, Molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Message boards at Cornell called for people to slit Jewish people's throats and rape them.
In Dagestan, a lynch mob stormed a hotel and the airport looking for Jews - it was not "just a demonstration."
Anti-semitic incidents have risen exponentially around the world, and are up 400% in the US.
The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
Here’s a both-sides article, because violent Islamophobia is also on the rise and I’m not trying to play oppression Olympics – there’s already enough of that here in the other direction.
I intentionally chose only non-Israeli and non-Jewish sources, so as not to invite the ‘Israelis / Jews are lying liars’ responses to every attack so far (not directly quoting anyone here, just paraphrasing what’s happening pretty much everywhere when attacks on Jews are reported).
This thread is appalling.
posted by Mchelly at 9:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
> [The bombardment is] The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
I believe this falls under the previously used and deeply unserious "Orientalist infantalization of Hamas"
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:52 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I believe this falls under the previously used and deeply unserious "Orientalist infantalization of Hamas"
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:52 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
This thread is appalling.
excuse me??????
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
excuse me??????
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
how could this thread not be appalling? the events that have sparked this thread are appalling. your comment comes across as a denouncement of the thread, I can't imagine anyone agreeing with every comment and there are comments I'd strongly disagree with, but some people are posting links to informative sources for those who wish to be aware of the appalling things in some fashion. the alternative is to not care and be uninformed, or worse: pick a side and add to the fire.
what would you like to happen? this is what we have, this is who we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
how could this thread not be appalling? the events that have sparked this thread are appalling. your comment comes across as a denouncement of the thread, I can't imagine anyone agreeing with every comment and there are comments I'd strongly disagree with, but some people are posting links to informative sources for those who wish to be aware of the appalling things in some fashion. the alternative is to not care and be uninformed, or worse: pick a side and add to the fire.
what would you like to happen? this is what we have, this is who we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
FWIW the Ministry of Health seems to be saying 50+ killed at the refugee camp, not 500+. Still awful but maybe a translation issue again as CNN is quoting the hospital there as saying hundreds of dead and wounded. As I said, it would still be awful at that number of killed but in the interest of accuracy.
posted by Justinian at 10:02 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:02 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mchelly, I appreciate your links and the appreciate the reason I believe you compiled them. It is important to remember that there are victims on all sides of this conflict, including those who are far removed from the bombardment on the ground itself.
It is also important to remember that there are 8,525 dead Palestinians as of accurate counts this morning, and that half of them are children, and that there is no end to the siege in sight.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
It is also important to remember that there are 8,525 dead Palestinians as of accurate counts this morning, and that half of them are children, and that there is no end to the siege in sight.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
Thanks for the links about that part of the story, Mchelly. I think most of us in the thread are trying to respond in good faith to a lot of horrifying things that are happening very quickly to a lot of innocent people.
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
I'm not sure what to say--I'm opposed to anti-semitism and I understand there to be a very scary rise in anti-semitism across the globe over the last several years. Most of the accounts you link are matters for serious law enforcement in . . . nine(?) . . . different countries. To the extent that the governments of those countries are opting not to enforce the law--or are actively encouraging anti-semitism--I am opposed to them, owing to my opposition to anti-semitism.
A comment was deleted and there's an implication that someone did lob some anti-semitism around here, so I can't speak for that deleted comment. But beyond that it would be helpful to actually quote the anti-semitism you see here so that people can see it and flag it. Most of what I've read in this post is people freaking out about the deaths of innocent Palestinians--cherishing Arab life. We should cherish Arab life as we cherish our own lives.
posted by kensington314 at 10:08 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure what to say--I'm opposed to anti-semitism and I understand there to be a very scary rise in anti-semitism across the globe over the last several years. Most of the accounts you link are matters for serious law enforcement in . . . nine(?) . . . different countries. To the extent that the governments of those countries are opting not to enforce the law--or are actively encouraging anti-semitism--I am opposed to them, owing to my opposition to anti-semitism.
A comment was deleted and there's an implication that someone did lob some anti-semitism around here, so I can't speak for that deleted comment. But beyond that it would be helpful to actually quote the anti-semitism you see here so that people can see it and flag it. Most of what I've read in this post is people freaking out about the deaths of innocent Palestinians--cherishing Arab life. We should cherish Arab life as we cherish our own lives.
posted by kensington314 at 10:08 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
This thread is appalling.
oh, look who brought a wet blanket
you know what i think? i think all those who try to justify the acts of psychopathic leaders on both sides by historical, cultural and religious arguments rehashed for the nth time, are PART OF THE PROBLEM and continue to guarantee this tragedy will go on
and as they say here in the midwest, every time you point a finger, you have 3 pointing right back at you
the only thing truly appalling about these threads, aside from the reports of various horrors, is the willingness of people to score points for their side in an endless shitstorm of controversy
they are PART OF THE PROBLEM
this is not about the links you posted or your concern about the events described but the sheer bloodymindedness that made you tar us all with the brush of attending a so called nazi barbecue with burning crosses
wasn't that the kkk?
if you really think this is a nazi barbecue, why are you here?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
oh, look who brought a wet blanket
you know what i think? i think all those who try to justify the acts of psychopathic leaders on both sides by historical, cultural and religious arguments rehashed for the nth time, are PART OF THE PROBLEM and continue to guarantee this tragedy will go on
and as they say here in the midwest, every time you point a finger, you have 3 pointing right back at you
the only thing truly appalling about these threads, aside from the reports of various horrors, is the willingness of people to score points for their side in an endless shitstorm of controversy
they are PART OF THE PROBLEM
this is not about the links you posted or your concern about the events described but the sheer bloodymindedness that made you tar us all with the brush of attending a so called nazi barbecue with burning crosses
wasn't that the kkk?
if you really think this is a nazi barbecue, why are you here?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
start of comment: Respectfully...
end of comment: [implication that we're all torch-carrying Nazis]
posted by sagc at 10:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
end of comment: [implication that we're all torch-carrying Nazis]
posted by sagc at 10:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
There’s a genocide of Palestine happening,, an open, blatant genocide.
My god have you no shame.
posted by Yowser at 10:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
My god have you no shame.
posted by Yowser at 10:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
As a Jewish person, I think it's deeply narcissistic to center some scattered antisemitic incidents (same as it ever was, unfortunately) while the people of Gaza are being literally leveled by bombs. Get a grip. It's honestly pathetic, a shonda.
posted by dusty potato at 10:17 AM on October 31, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:17 AM on October 31, 2023 [21 favorites]
the idea that zionism is judaism and judaism zionism is roughly equivalent to the idea that hinduism is hindutva and hindutva is hinduism, except three quarters of the whole world wants to murder jews and so people on
(っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ ¯`·.¸¸.-> °º 🎀 𝒷𝑜𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 º° >-.¸¸.·`¯ ♥
are invested in drawing the false equivalence.
anyway i'm gonna get off the Internet and go fail to do some theodicy because today's a great day for that, yes indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
(っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ ¯`·.¸¸.-> °º 🎀 𝒷𝑜𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 º° >-.¸¸.·`¯ ♥
are invested in drawing the false equivalence.
anyway i'm gonna get off the Internet and go fail to do some theodicy because today's a great day for that, yes indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
What is the barbecue where Nazis have turned up in this analogy - sympathy for Palestinians? Criticism of Israel? We can't object to a campaign of bombing an area dense with civilians because some awful people do awful things, and might also purport to do horrible things?
Why are the antisemites the cross burners at a Pro-Palestinian barbecue, but settler violence is not cross burning at a pro-Israel barbecue? There's awful people on both "sides" - does that make it morally problematic to want an end to the killing? Are both "sides" in this conflict irredeemable? If not, then why just one?
posted by Dysk at 10:25 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why are the antisemites the cross burners at a Pro-Palestinian barbecue, but settler violence is not cross burning at a pro-Israel barbecue? There's awful people on both "sides" - does that make it morally problematic to want an end to the killing? Are both "sides" in this conflict irredeemable? If not, then why just one?
posted by Dysk at 10:25 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
count me as someone who wants the "you're a nazi" comment to stay up. really i'd be middle-key annoyed if it were removed even though i think i'm one of the people at whom it was targeted.
okay now i'll get off the Internet
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
okay now i'll get off the Internet
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Another comment deleted, please, Be considerate and respectful and avoid comparing other people here to Nazis
posted by loup (staff) at 10:56 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:56 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like the comment calling us all torch-carrying attendees of a cross burning is maybe not a great comment the leave up? I assumed that was the one which was deleted, but apparently that doesn't count enough as "calling people Nazis"?
Seems like a clear attempt to shut down discussion of human rights abuses via wildly unsupported comparisons, at least. If nothing else, anyone calling this thread "appalling" should probably be required to, like, support that contention, rather than allowed to drop some trolling in the thread and then run off.
posted by sagc at 11:19 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Seems like a clear attempt to shut down discussion of human rights abuses via wildly unsupported comparisons, at least. If nothing else, anyone calling this thread "appalling" should probably be required to, like, support that contention, rather than allowed to drop some trolling in the thread and then run off.
posted by sagc at 11:19 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I assumed that was the one which was deleted, but apparently that doesn't count enough as "calling people Nazis"?
As far as I can tell, there were no comments deleted that called anyone a nazi. The only comment calling us nazis was from mchelly, and that is still up. The comment that I saw that was deleted was mine, where I said it was pretty fucked up to leave a comment about calling people nazis up.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
As far as I can tell, there were no comments deleted that called anyone a nazi. The only comment calling us nazis was from mchelly, and that is still up. The comment that I saw that was deleted was mine, where I said it was pretty fucked up to leave a comment about calling people nazis up.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
All these responses to Mchelly are part of the reason why I/P threads go wrong on MetaFilter all the time. The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding". You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews. Or the way the Turks tried to eliminate the Armenians. Or the Serbs tried to eliminate the Croats. Or the way the Hutus tried to eliminate the Tutsis.
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust. Can you comprehend what it means for a child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors to know those statistics intimately, and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it? When MeFites -- who are so hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda -- uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel and brush off how that rhetoric strengthens anti-Semitism?
Is it possible for mods to ask that the same dozen or so people who've been commenting 10 or 20 times in this thread to take a day off? Maybe let this thread be something other than their Two Minutes Hate?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding". You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews. Or the way the Turks tried to eliminate the Armenians. Or the Serbs tried to eliminate the Croats. Or the way the Hutus tried to eliminate the Tutsis.
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust. Can you comprehend what it means for a child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors to know those statistics intimately, and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it? When MeFites -- who are so hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda -- uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel and brush off how that rhetoric strengthens anti-Semitism?
Is it possible for mods to ask that the same dozen or so people who've been commenting 10 or 20 times in this thread to take a day off? Maybe let this thread be something other than their Two Minutes Hate?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, she did call every other poster in the thread a Nazi. That's gonna get a response.
posted by sagc at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
What does the word 'tone' mean to you? These are all substantive claims.
The reason it feels like very few people are standing by Israel right now is because very few people are standing by Israel right now. People of conscience are horrified by what they're seeing.
posted by dusty potato at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
What does the word 'tone' mean to you? These are all substantive claims.
The reason it feels like very few people are standing by Israel right now is because very few people are standing by Israel right now. People of conscience are horrified by what they're seeing.
posted by dusty potato at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
Mchelly got pushback because they called us Nazis. Which is a shame, since they had important links in the comment. And because it poisons discourse.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
It has! because now there is a ground offensive and 7k people have been killed in the past couple of weeks.
I'm honestly confused if this comment is a parody or not. You can't attempt a genocide against a diaspora? Is that really the argument?
and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it?
Mchelley got attacked for calling us Nazis, not for linking to multiple anti-semitic attacks around the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Mchelly got pushback because they called us Nazis. Which is a shame, since they had important links in the comment. And because it poisons discourse.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
It has! because now there is a ground offensive and 7k people have been killed in the past couple of weeks.
I'm honestly confused if this comment is a parody or not. You can't attempt a genocide against a diaspora? Is that really the argument?
and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it?
Mchelley got attacked for calling us Nazis, not for linking to multiple anti-semitic attacks around the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
Since no one seems to know what's going on with the moderation here right now, can we just agree to drop this — please? Nothing good will come of this argument right now.
I think it would be for the best if we just agree to not continue responding to any comments going back to and including Mchelly's.
posted by ssg at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it would be for the best if we just agree to not continue responding to any comments going back to and including Mchelly's.
posted by ssg at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Mchelley, this is fake news. Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats or danger to anyone or damage to anything. It's yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism transparently meant to distract attention from the ongoing genocide of Palestinians.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mchelley, this is fake news. Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats or danger to anyone or damage to anything. It's yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism transparently meant to distract attention from the ongoing genocide of Palestinians.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
You'll have to take up the math of whether Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine (and where is your head at that you even think that's a normal thing to think about?)
He referred directly this yesterday : ": “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
Give your head a shake.
posted by Yowser at 11:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
He referred directly this yesterday : ": “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
Give your head a shake.
posted by Yowser at 11:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
> The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
It has, yes, and that IS horrifying and awful. And the few Jewish associates I've touched base with are rightfully concerned. Everyone should be concerned.
But there's nothing about indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Gaza that will make that go away.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
It has, yes, and that IS horrifying and awful. And the few Jewish associates I've touched base with are rightfully concerned. Everyone should be concerned.
But there's nothing about indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Gaza that will make that go away.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
I'm really very sorry that you are apparently incapable of reading. The Israeli cabinet is discussing the forced transfer of the population of Gaza to Sinai. This is ethnic cleansing, by definition. Netanyahu called Palestinians "Amalek" in an open call for genocide. This has nothing to do with "tone", this is taking the Israeli government at their word.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
I'm really very sorry that you are apparently incapable of reading. The Israeli cabinet is discussing the forced transfer of the population of Gaza to Sinai. This is ethnic cleansing, by definition. Netanyahu called Palestinians "Amalek" in an open call for genocide. This has nothing to do with "tone", this is taking the Israeli government at their word.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside
1. People can commit acts of genocide without being able to complete it. Attempted murders that could never work are still attempted murders.
2. "you could murder everyone in Gaza and it wouldn't be genocide" is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [43 favorites]
1. People can commit acts of genocide without being able to complete it. Attempted murders that could never work are still attempted murders.
2. "you could murder everyone in Gaza and it wouldn't be genocide" is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [43 favorites]
yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism
CAN WE NOT PLEASE
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
CAN WE NOT PLEASE
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
i think the war framing is itself misleading. this is a large scale response to a prisoner rebellion. no, prisoners shouldn’t kill civilians or even their prison guards in a riot, despite being illegally jailed. the response should also not be the indiscriminate slaughter of every inmate whether they were part of the rebellion or not. the prison should be abolished and the prisoners reintegrated into society. maybe that’s impossible now, but again what people are mad about is an ongoing mass murder with no attempt to prevent collateral damage. raining death on one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is evil, it’s terror, and the gazans who survive will suffer from the terror for the rest of their lives, and you simply can’t justify it. even if it’s a tit for tat response.
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
(to be very, very clear, one can commit genocide on only a part of a group. This is from the Genocide Convention: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" (emphasis mine))`
posted by BungaDunga at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over. That’s what Japan did, that’s what the Germans did. If Hamas cares about Palestinians they need to end their war.
And if Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, then... what exactly? What does that imply about what Israel should do? I think that's a good question to think about, because Hamas does not appear to have been terribly careful with Palestinian lives in the past,
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
And if Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, then... what exactly? What does that imply about what Israel should do? I think that's a good question to think about, because Hamas does not appear to have been terribly careful with Palestinian lives in the past,
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Proportionality has nothing to do with war.
Proportionality is not uncomplicated, but it very much has something to do with war, and the treaty that established the International Criminal Court deals with it at length. Israel is a signatory to the treaty, but essentially withdrew because they felt that the heavy implication of the treaty is that their treatment of Palestinians is a de facto crime. The Geneva Conventions also deal seriously with the deaths of civilians in wartime, and basically apply the same principal that eventually became the law on proportionality: the deaths of civilians are not acceptable unless they are proportionate to a military advantage that they achieve. Israel signed onto the Geneva Conventions in 1949.
You can delve into the literature and find all kinds of argumentation about whether the "military advantage" should be interpreted as "this specific attack will achieve its tactical advantage" or "these tactics will contribute to us winning the broader war." In the case of Israel vs. Hamas, Foreign Affairs published an article on the matter just a few days ago:
That viewpoint is shared by many, and I disagree with it so totally that just reading it makes me want to jump out of my skin. I'm not a guy who tries to find myself on the same side as, say, Alan Dershowitz. But my point is just that proportionality very much has something to do with war, and the framework of international law about war that the nations of the world have established since WWII are very much the reason you hear people referring to this assault on Gaza as a "war crime."
interogative mood, I suppose you're right that the law of war doesn't include a tally of deaths on each side. This is not the proportionality that international law speaks of. But regular people do just have moral intuitions, and yes, we do keep a perverse ledger about war. We mourn 1,500 and we are too staggered to even interpret what 8,000+ and counting means in human terms. I haven't found much of what you've had to say in this thread or the previous one worth engaging with because, "Gee shucks, Netanyahu is a real bastard but it's infinitely regrettable that Palestinian children must die because the global superpower Hamas refuses to end this war" is a 4chan-level sentiment and you know what they say about whether or not to feed the trolls. But I did feel compelled to respond to your comment about proportionality because it's important to establish that proportionality has real meaning in the context of war.
posted by kensington314 at 12:06 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Proportionality is not uncomplicated, but it very much has something to do with war, and the treaty that established the International Criminal Court deals with it at length. Israel is a signatory to the treaty, but essentially withdrew because they felt that the heavy implication of the treaty is that their treatment of Palestinians is a de facto crime. The Geneva Conventions also deal seriously with the deaths of civilians in wartime, and basically apply the same principal that eventually became the law on proportionality: the deaths of civilians are not acceptable unless they are proportionate to a military advantage that they achieve. Israel signed onto the Geneva Conventions in 1949.
You can delve into the literature and find all kinds of argumentation about whether the "military advantage" should be interpreted as "this specific attack will achieve its tactical advantage" or "these tactics will contribute to us winning the broader war." In the case of Israel vs. Hamas, Foreign Affairs published an article on the matter just a few days ago:
Nonetheless, a large-scale operation to dismantle the terrorist organization that controls Gaza is bound to involve numerous interactions with inhabitants who are not involved in the hostilities. Such interactions must be guided by three principles, the first of which also underlies the second and third. The first is that the IDF must continually try to minimize collateral damage. Obviously, this imperative applies to the Israeli population as well, but in the present operation, its primary application concerns the issue of collateral damage in the Gaza Strip, and the obligation to protect the life, health, and property of noncombatants who live there under Hamas control. Here, two further principles come into play: the principle of distinction and the principle of proportionality. Both are well established as components of historical “just war” doctrine (jus ad bellum) and, since the twentieth century, have been inscribed in international law, as well.The Foreign Affairs article is broadly supportive of Israel's actions so far. The general tone is, "Well, Israel has decided on a military goal of dismantling Hamas and so innocent folks are gonna die. It was good of them to warn people that they will die if they don't move as far south as possible. No comment on people getting bombed on their way south."
That viewpoint is shared by many, and I disagree with it so totally that just reading it makes me want to jump out of my skin. I'm not a guy who tries to find myself on the same side as, say, Alan Dershowitz. But my point is just that proportionality very much has something to do with war, and the framework of international law about war that the nations of the world have established since WWII are very much the reason you hear people referring to this assault on Gaza as a "war crime."
interogative mood, I suppose you're right that the law of war doesn't include a tally of deaths on each side. This is not the proportionality that international law speaks of. But regular people do just have moral intuitions, and yes, we do keep a perverse ledger about war. We mourn 1,500 and we are too staggered to even interpret what 8,000+ and counting means in human terms. I haven't found much of what you've had to say in this thread or the previous one worth engaging with because, "Gee shucks, Netanyahu is a real bastard but it's infinitely regrettable that Palestinian children must die because the global superpower Hamas refuses to end this war" is a 4chan-level sentiment and you know what they say about whether or not to feed the trolls. But I did feel compelled to respond to your comment about proportionality because it's important to establish that proportionality has real meaning in the context of war.
posted by kensington314 at 12:06 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Japan surrendered after the US nuked them twice. Germany surrendered after things like the fire bombing of Dresden. is this really analogous to any valid solution? how many Palestinian civilians would die while waiting for Hamas to surrender???
posted by supermedusa at 12:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 12:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
There are plenty of Jewish Mefites not toeing the Likudnik party line, and they're among the most insightful commenters in these threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:18 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
There are plenty of Jewish Mefites not toeing the Likudnik party line, and they're among the most insightful commenters in these threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:18 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
Personally, I don't actually see how a person could judge that Israel is currently meeting the demands under international law of necessity and distinction, and it's always been my understanding that without these two, a claim of proportionality falls apart: if you're not conducting a legitimate objective, it's not legitimate to kill civilians on your way to accomplishing it. But I'm not an expert. I've probably learned my lay person's grasp of this by googling about international law every time there is a flare-up in the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict over the last 20+ years.
But this brings me to something I've been mulling, and I'm curious about people's thoughts here. Very much attention has been paid to how October 7 represented a major security failure on the part of the Israeli government--how Netanyahu actively cultivated a Hamas-led status quo in Gaza and then Israel found itself unable to preempt or respond to the October 7 attack as a result of some combination of misjudgment, laziness, focus on aiding settlement of the West Bank, and extreme incompetence. (The people of Israel seem to agree with this view, broadly.)
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective--under which, yes, some number of civilians would absolutely be killed by the IDF--be essentially fixing the Netanyahu government's operational fuck-ups? In other words, a status quo of antagonism and occasional flare-ups was judged to be acceptable by Israel, and rocket attacks were largely repelled by Iron Dome--but October 7 was actually partially the result of a military failure that can be fixed without killing untold thousands of innocents. Shouldn't proportionality be judged against the least harmful military response, which would be to militarize the shit out of the Gaza border and fix the intelligence failures? It's not a solution to the Palestinian need for self-determination, but in the short term it would be defensible and would save many precious lives.
I guess I am just trying to re-center the Netanyahu government's massive, devastating fuck-up here and put the "just" response in context of that. I haven't really seen much of that discussed when we talk about whether Israel has other options, which it certainly does.
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
But this brings me to something I've been mulling, and I'm curious about people's thoughts here. Very much attention has been paid to how October 7 represented a major security failure on the part of the Israeli government--how Netanyahu actively cultivated a Hamas-led status quo in Gaza and then Israel found itself unable to preempt or respond to the October 7 attack as a result of some combination of misjudgment, laziness, focus on aiding settlement of the West Bank, and extreme incompetence. (The people of Israel seem to agree with this view, broadly.)
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective--under which, yes, some number of civilians would absolutely be killed by the IDF--be essentially fixing the Netanyahu government's operational fuck-ups? In other words, a status quo of antagonism and occasional flare-ups was judged to be acceptable by Israel, and rocket attacks were largely repelled by Iron Dome--but October 7 was actually partially the result of a military failure that can be fixed without killing untold thousands of innocents. Shouldn't proportionality be judged against the least harmful military response, which would be to militarize the shit out of the Gaza border and fix the intelligence failures? It's not a solution to the Palestinian need for self-determination, but in the short term it would be defensible and would save many precious lives.
I guess I am just trying to re-center the Netanyahu government's massive, devastating fuck-up here and put the "just" response in context of that. I haven't really seen much of that discussed when we talk about whether Israel has other options, which it certainly does.
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
posted by mikelieman at 12:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
posted by mikelieman at 12:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
This is also what I favor. But I think what I'm trying to figure out is, living in a world where consensus demands military action, where it's inevitable, wouldn't the acceptable thing be a massive defensive security operation that you can rah rah rah around and that actually protects people immediately, without killing all the Palestinians you can?
I always come back to the US after 9/11. I didn't want us to go into Afghanistan. But some military action was inevitable. My country isn't made up of people like me, and those of us who are here don't have political power. History has borne out that it would've been much preferable to do something narrow and achievable rather than . . . spend 20 years and then hand the country back to the Taliban, having also destroyed Iraq along the way.
posted by kensington314 at 12:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is also what I favor. But I think what I'm trying to figure out is, living in a world where consensus demands military action, where it's inevitable, wouldn't the acceptable thing be a massive defensive security operation that you can rah rah rah around and that actually protects people immediately, without killing all the Palestinians you can?
I always come back to the US after 9/11. I didn't want us to go into Afghanistan. But some military action was inevitable. My country isn't made up of people like me, and those of us who are here don't have political power. History has borne out that it would've been much preferable to do something narrow and achievable rather than . . . spend 20 years and then hand the country back to the Taliban, having also destroyed Iraq along the way.
posted by kensington314 at 12:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
To quote Ijeoma Oluo about a friend: “… this morning on her social media she was arguing against the use of the word ‘genocide’ to describe the thousands of Gazans slaughtered in mere days, the bombing of hospitals and schools, the denial of food and water, the destruction of homes for over a million people. It wasn’t a genocide, why? Because there were still so many other Palestinians left in the world. My heart, having been broken so many different ways in these last two weeks, shattered anew.”
That Hamas massacred 1400 people in Israel and took 240 hostages is horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. The rise of attacks against Jews around the world is also all those things.
That Israeli forces have now killed an estimated 8,000 Palestinians in Gaza (many of them children), is also horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. So are the attacks against people living in the West Bank and also the bigots attacking anyone they consider Muslim or Palestinian or Arab or some other category of people they think it’s OK to hate.
Does killing more innocent individuals make up for the massacre by Hamas? I don’t see how. It feels like terrorists committed an unfathomable war crime and Netanyahu’s response was to say hold my beer.
I very much hope for a cease fire. I am sending my representative Barbara Lee a thank you for standing against the bombing of Gaza (which does not mean she supports Hamas). Angelina Jolie gave her money to Doctors Without Borders. That’s where I plan to send a bit of money as well.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:34 PM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
That Hamas massacred 1400 people in Israel and took 240 hostages is horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. The rise of attacks against Jews around the world is also all those things.
That Israeli forces have now killed an estimated 8,000 Palestinians in Gaza (many of them children), is also horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. So are the attacks against people living in the West Bank and also the bigots attacking anyone they consider Muslim or Palestinian or Arab or some other category of people they think it’s OK to hate.
Does killing more innocent individuals make up for the massacre by Hamas? I don’t see how. It feels like terrorists committed an unfathomable war crime and Netanyahu’s response was to say hold my beer.
I very much hope for a cease fire. I am sending my representative Barbara Lee a thank you for standing against the bombing of Gaza (which does not mean she supports Hamas). Angelina Jolie gave her money to Doctors Without Borders. That’s where I plan to send a bit of money as well.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:34 PM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust.
This is pure, undiluted apologia for ethnic cleansing and replacement theory.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is pure, undiluted apologia for ethnic cleansing and replacement theory.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
Mod note: This thread has been open for roughly 3 days and it now has 9 mod notes and twice as many flags as it has comments, so let me address a few things.
- I know this is a hard situation and I hope you can understand that this is a tragic historical event that is unfolding as we speak.
- Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and personal attacks have no place in MetaFilter. Period.
- MetaFilter strives to be a community where everyone can contribute as long as they abide by the Content Policy and Site Guidelines.
- Criticism of the involved parties is part of the implications of a community that fosters discussions among its members. To say that the Israeli government is committing violent atrocities, is not the same as antisemitism. Condemning Hamas for its horrific actions is not the same as taking Israel’s side.
Please bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to choose a clear or more proactive moderation path through all the competing narratives going on in this thread. It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion. This situation goes way beyond black and white/good and evil and we hope that members can continue communicating without bringing the level of discourse in this thread down to name calling and discriminatory comments.
While we can moderate the thread and step in whenever the Content Policy or Guidelines are being overstepped; we can't change the root cause of the issue; that is, the fact that the people participating in the thread have different levels of involvement and stakes with the situation and even hold conflicting views among themselves.
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members while allowing others to express themselves, please take a step back and let the conversation move on.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [40 favorites]
- I know this is a hard situation and I hope you can understand that this is a tragic historical event that is unfolding as we speak.
- Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and personal attacks have no place in MetaFilter. Period.
- MetaFilter strives to be a community where everyone can contribute as long as they abide by the Content Policy and Site Guidelines.
- Criticism of the involved parties is part of the implications of a community that fosters discussions among its members. To say that the Israeli government is committing violent atrocities, is not the same as antisemitism. Condemning Hamas for its horrific actions is not the same as taking Israel’s side.
Please bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to choose a clear or more proactive moderation path through all the competing narratives going on in this thread. It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion. This situation goes way beyond black and white/good and evil and we hope that members can continue communicating without bringing the level of discourse in this thread down to name calling and discriminatory comments.
While we can moderate the thread and step in whenever the Content Policy or Guidelines are being overstepped; we can't change the root cause of the issue; that is, the fact that the people participating in the thread have different levels of involvement and stakes with the situation and even hold conflicting views among themselves.
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members while allowing others to express themselves, please take a step back and let the conversation move on.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [40 favorites]
If I may comment on this thread in the past few hours: look, I don't agree with Mchelly that this thread is appalling, but I would like to urge people to remember that some in this thread (including Mchelly, based on what they posted in the previous thread), are actively fearful for loved ones in Israel right now. They are in real pain. Others have connections to Palestinians. They are also in real pain. We can of course disagree with each other but I would urge everyone to try to deescalate the rhetoric a bit - if someone posts something inflammatory (and I agree, suggesting that this thread is a like a BBQ with a burning cross is inflammatory!) you don't need to respond being equally inflammatory by calling them a "wet blanket" or pondering if a "comment is a parody or not." For whatever it's worth, I think clawsoon's response to Mchelly is a good model - you can push back, but you don't have to be mean in the process.
And if a few users have already posted rebuttals to something, unless you have something substantive to add, you don't need to contribute to a pile-on. I have also found the treatment of interrogative mood by some users to be disturbingly mean-spirited/bullying behavior – not everyone, but some of y'all have been going after every single thing they've posted, even their more benign posts, and reading them very ungenerously. While I disagree with a fair bit they've written, I have also learned from some of their posts, and I hope they stick around.
And if someone posts about an antisemitic event that's happened, maybe don't rush to post "Yeah, that's bad, but [x horror happening in Gaza]. This isn't a horror Olympics, you don't need to argue with the rise of antisemitism. You can just post whatever has happened in Gaza or the West Bank without placing it in opposition to what another user has shared. (This has happened countless times in this and the previous thread, but to give one example, see responses to when people brought up the riot in the Dagestan airport)
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members
Thank you loup, if I may add: if you just find yourself getting angry - that's probably a sign that you're not in the best head space to engage with people of other viewpoints.
Sorry if this comment comes off as scolding, that's not my intent, I'm trying to give constructive feedback here as someone who has read almost all of the previous thread and this one. I took the time to write this mainly because people seemed in disbelief that anyone could see this thread as appalling, and while again, I don't agree with that word choice, I imagine some of these tendencies I've noticed in this and previous thread might be what was being referenced. Thanks again to everyone sharing information and insights in these discussions we've been having.
posted by coffeecat at 1:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
And if a few users have already posted rebuttals to something, unless you have something substantive to add, you don't need to contribute to a pile-on. I have also found the treatment of interrogative mood by some users to be disturbingly mean-spirited/bullying behavior – not everyone, but some of y'all have been going after every single thing they've posted, even their more benign posts, and reading them very ungenerously. While I disagree with a fair bit they've written, I have also learned from some of their posts, and I hope they stick around.
And if someone posts about an antisemitic event that's happened, maybe don't rush to post "Yeah, that's bad, but [x horror happening in Gaza]. This isn't a horror Olympics, you don't need to argue with the rise of antisemitism. You can just post whatever has happened in Gaza or the West Bank without placing it in opposition to what another user has shared. (This has happened countless times in this and the previous thread, but to give one example, see responses to when people brought up the riot in the Dagestan airport)
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members
Thank you loup, if I may add: if you just find yourself getting angry - that's probably a sign that you're not in the best head space to engage with people of other viewpoints.
Sorry if this comment comes off as scolding, that's not my intent, I'm trying to give constructive feedback here as someone who has read almost all of the previous thread and this one. I took the time to write this mainly because people seemed in disbelief that anyone could see this thread as appalling, and while again, I don't agree with that word choice, I imagine some of these tendencies I've noticed in this and previous thread might be what was being referenced. Thanks again to everyone sharing information and insights in these discussions we've been having.
posted by coffeecat at 1:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
something i am legit curious about — i'm not deploying this as a "checkmate!" fake question — is what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs that get dropped on buildings that people lived in but now because of the bombs the buildings have fallen on a lot of the people who used to live there and now no one is living in them ever again because the buildings are in holes and have no insides for people to live in?
like what does a hamas surrender look like? and i want to stress that this is a legitimate non-rhetorical non-points-scoring question but coming from a place of genuine curiosity. do hamas soldiers all line up and give their guns and rockets to the idf and then ??? happens to them after? does that happen and then idf soldiers say "well, that's it then, nicely handled everyone, all the hamas soldiers have surrendered and we can all move on with our lives?" what makes netanyahu say "well i wanted to continue this war because my approval ratings depend on it, but now i can't because all the hamas soldiers have surrendered so i guess that's it then?" where are the idf soldiers after the surrender and do they stay there and what do they do?
i don't know what a surrender looks like here! hamas's army is closer to being a guerilla thing like the viet cong or whatever than it is to being an army like the united states army or the idf is, right? or are they more of a mainline nation-state army and it really is a matter where a surrender happens when a few guys at the top say "welp, that's it then, we're surrendered" and the army stands down and it's all done, at least until the next time around?
how does it work? and i stress, this is a real question and there's probably an answer and that answer might be something like "well this is how the surrender went down back in '14 or whatever and that would be sufficient for a surrender in this case too", but i am a thousand times too ignorant about geopolitics, particularly geopolitics in the middle east, to know what the answer to this question is and would like someone to help me be less ignorant so i can think about this war in a more intelligent, coherent way that better accords with intersubjective consensus reality.
thank you in advance.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:08 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
like what does a hamas surrender look like? and i want to stress that this is a legitimate non-rhetorical non-points-scoring question but coming from a place of genuine curiosity. do hamas soldiers all line up and give their guns and rockets to the idf and then ??? happens to them after? does that happen and then idf soldiers say "well, that's it then, nicely handled everyone, all the hamas soldiers have surrendered and we can all move on with our lives?" what makes netanyahu say "well i wanted to continue this war because my approval ratings depend on it, but now i can't because all the hamas soldiers have surrendered so i guess that's it then?" where are the idf soldiers after the surrender and do they stay there and what do they do?
i don't know what a surrender looks like here! hamas's army is closer to being a guerilla thing like the viet cong or whatever than it is to being an army like the united states army or the idf is, right? or are they more of a mainline nation-state army and it really is a matter where a surrender happens when a few guys at the top say "welp, that's it then, we're surrendered" and the army stands down and it's all done, at least until the next time around?
how does it work? and i stress, this is a real question and there's probably an answer and that answer might be something like "well this is how the surrender went down back in '14 or whatever and that would be sufficient for a surrender in this case too", but i am a thousand times too ignorant about geopolitics, particularly geopolitics in the middle east, to know what the answer to this question is and would like someone to help me be less ignorant so i can think about this war in a more intelligent, coherent way that better accords with intersubjective consensus reality.
thank you in advance.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:08 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: the comment above about Netanyahu's failures; it's worth looking again at the reports from the Israeli soldiers that they tried warning higher ups *for months* about increased activity at the Gaza border. From The Times of Israel 5 days ago: Surveillance soldiers warned of Hamas activity on Gaza border for months before Oct. 7
I'll quote it a bit longer than usual:
Rotenberg recalled frequently seeing many Palestinians dressed in civilian clothing approach the border fence with maps, examining the ground around it and digging holes. One time, when she passed the information on, she was told that they were farmers, and there was nothing to worry about. “It’s infuriating,” she told Kan of the intelligence failure. “We saw what was happening, we told them about it, and we were the ones who were murdered.”
The Hamas terrorists would train at the border fence nonstop, Desiatnik told Kan. At first, it was once a week, then once a day, and then nearly constantly. In addition to passing on information about the frequency of the training going on at the fence, the surveillance soldier said she collected evidence of the content of the training, which included how to drive a tank and how to cross into Israel via a tunnel. As the activity on the border increased, she realized that “it was just a matter of time” until something happened.
Former tatzpitaniyot ["surveillance soldiers"] Amit Yerushalmi and Noa Melman corroborated the accounts of the two survivors in an interview published by Channel 12 on Thursday morning. “We sat on shifts and saw the convoy of vans. We saw the training, people shooting and rolling, practicing taking over a tank. The training went from once a week to twice a week, from every day to several times a day,” she told Channel 12. “We saw patrols along the border, people with cameras and binoculars. It happened 300 meters from the fence. There were a lot of disturbances, people went down to the fence and detonated an outrageous amount of explosives, the amount of explosives was crazy.”
Like Rotenberg and Desiatnik, Yerushalmi said that she passed the information along, but that nobody seemed to take it seriously.
posted by mediareport at 1:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'll quote it a bit longer than usual:
Rotenberg recalled frequently seeing many Palestinians dressed in civilian clothing approach the border fence with maps, examining the ground around it and digging holes. One time, when she passed the information on, she was told that they were farmers, and there was nothing to worry about. “It’s infuriating,” she told Kan of the intelligence failure. “We saw what was happening, we told them about it, and we were the ones who were murdered.”
The Hamas terrorists would train at the border fence nonstop, Desiatnik told Kan. At first, it was once a week, then once a day, and then nearly constantly. In addition to passing on information about the frequency of the training going on at the fence, the surveillance soldier said she collected evidence of the content of the training, which included how to drive a tank and how to cross into Israel via a tunnel. As the activity on the border increased, she realized that “it was just a matter of time” until something happened.
Former tatzpitaniyot ["surveillance soldiers"] Amit Yerushalmi and Noa Melman corroborated the accounts of the two survivors in an interview published by Channel 12 on Thursday morning. “We sat on shifts and saw the convoy of vans. We saw the training, people shooting and rolling, practicing taking over a tank. The training went from once a week to twice a week, from every day to several times a day,” she told Channel 12. “We saw patrols along the border, people with cameras and binoculars. It happened 300 meters from the fence. There were a lot of disturbances, people went down to the fence and detonated an outrageous amount of explosives, the amount of explosives was crazy.”
Like Rotenberg and Desiatnik, Yerushalmi said that she passed the information along, but that nobody seemed to take it seriously.
posted by mediareport at 1:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs
Aye, there's the rub.
I don't think that Hamas would ever effectively surrender, and I don't think that Netanyahu would ever accept a surrender. I think the expressed goal is to END Hamas, with extreme prejudice. As well as further diminishing the prospect of ANY Gazan attacking Israel again.
And vengeance is still a thing, even in western democracies.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aye, there's the rub.
I don't think that Hamas would ever effectively surrender, and I don't think that Netanyahu would ever accept a surrender. I think the expressed goal is to END Hamas, with extreme prejudice. As well as further diminishing the prospect of ANY Gazan attacking Israel again.
And vengeance is still a thing, even in western democracies.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs
Releasing the hostages and stopping the rocket attacks would go a long, long way. Turning over weapons. Leadership/public figures out of Gaza in exile somewhere.
I think Hamas could do this if they wanted to. I don't think there's some mechanical obstacle to surrendering.
posted by ryanrs at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Releasing the hostages and stopping the rocket attacks would go a long, long way. Turning over weapons. Leadership/public figures out of Gaza in exile somewhere.
I think Hamas could do this if they wanted to. I don't think there's some mechanical obstacle to surrendering.
posted by ryanrs at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
A related failure-of-intelligence story: Israeli military stopped listening to Hamas handheld radios a year ago because it was a "waste of effort".
posted by clawsoon at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
While you'd be absolutely right to look at the necessity and distinction issues and judge whether Israel is even trying to apply those standards, I think it's losing the plot to argue that Hamas can be dealt with as a law enforcement problem. Literally thousands of heavily armed guys invaded southern Israel, overran both towns and military outposts, and held that ground for a brief time in opposition to soldiers with tanks backing them up. Hamas has lots of fully automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, explosives of both the IED and non-improvised variety, rockets, technicals, and so on. Oh, and they're the government of Gaza.
They're not Hezbollah which is essentially a full standing army but they're not just a gang of criminals either and I think the idea that a bunch of cops could deal with them in terms of law enforcement is basically fantasy. They're not super well trained irregulars but they're still basically a military.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
While you'd be absolutely right to look at the necessity and distinction issues and judge whether Israel is even trying to apply those standards, I think it's losing the plot to argue that Hamas can be dealt with as a law enforcement problem. Literally thousands of heavily armed guys invaded southern Israel, overran both towns and military outposts, and held that ground for a brief time in opposition to soldiers with tanks backing them up. Hamas has lots of fully automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, explosives of both the IED and non-improvised variety, rockets, technicals, and so on. Oh, and they're the government of Gaza.
They're not Hezbollah which is essentially a full standing army but they're not just a gang of criminals either and I think the idea that a bunch of cops could deal with them in terms of law enforcement is basically fantasy. They're not super well trained irregulars but they're still basically a military.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
if they had taken the hamas training right next to the border seriously that music festival a few miles from gaza, the one full of all those people i identify with so hard / wish I had been when I was younger, wouldn’t have happened a few miles from gaza and the people i super hard identify with wouldn’t be dead or taken prisoner.
aaagh i hate it i miss the days where israel’s army/intelligence apparatus was or at least seemed hyper competent. like i know israel isn’t the only agent making decisions here but also they’re the ones with the technology and the international recognition and everything, and it hurts a lot when the guys who are the major regional power do dumb things that get a ton of people killed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
aaagh i hate it i miss the days where israel’s army/intelligence apparatus was or at least seemed hyper competent. like i know israel isn’t the only agent making decisions here but also they’re the ones with the technology and the international recognition and everything, and it hurts a lot when the guys who are the major regional power do dumb things that get a ton of people killed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion.
loup, I respect the hell out of what you're saying, however the above is the one part of your statement I disagree with. The moderation team most certainly has the last say on the discussion because you all are the deciders of which comments stay up and which are deleted.
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. That she concluded with an inflammatory statement doesn't negate any of the articles. That could have been part of the discussion, but it was removed (presumably) because someone on the mod team thought the conclusion outweighed the rest of the comment. Therefore, the mod team de facto decided that not having an inflammatory concluding statement is more important than discussing global anti-Semitism. Other accusatory and inflammatory comments directed at commenters have been flagged and yet left standing.
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." When this thread closes in 27 days, the comments here will be the record of what the mod team deemed acceptable discourse. You can say you don't want to shape the discourse further than you already are, that's your business, but I can't agree with you saying that you can't, or that you shouldn't. The discussion is shaped as much by your inactions as by your actions.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
loup, I respect the hell out of what you're saying, however the above is the one part of your statement I disagree with. The moderation team most certainly has the last say on the discussion because you all are the deciders of which comments stay up and which are deleted.
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. That she concluded with an inflammatory statement doesn't negate any of the articles. That could have been part of the discussion, but it was removed (presumably) because someone on the mod team thought the conclusion outweighed the rest of the comment. Therefore, the mod team de facto decided that not having an inflammatory concluding statement is more important than discussing global anti-Semitism. Other accusatory and inflammatory comments directed at commenters have been flagged and yet left standing.
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." When this thread closes in 27 days, the comments here will be the record of what the mod team deemed acceptable discourse. You can say you don't want to shape the discourse further than you already are, that's your business, but I can't agree with you saying that you can't, or that you shouldn't. The discussion is shaped as much by your inactions as by your actions.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Linking to news articles doesn't give you permission to call people nazis. Split your thoughts into two comments if you only want the mods to delete half.
posted by ryanrs at 1:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats
That's not a fair reading. They said there were not any direct threats that could result in arrests. Anybody who has either been or known a woman dealing with an abusive ex or a stalker who is threatening them knows damn well that the cops either can't or won't arrest someone until people get hurt even in the face of things that any reasonable person would consider serious threats.
Knowing even a little history should be enough to know that Jewish students could very reasonably have been afraid and considered a mob of people banging on doors and windows trying to get in and chanting at them to be a legitimate threat. It doesn't help Palestinians at all to pretend that other stuff isn't happening (Dagestan, this incident, etc).
posted by Justinian at 1:49 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
That's not a fair reading. They said there were not any direct threats that could result in arrests. Anybody who has either been or known a woman dealing with an abusive ex or a stalker who is threatening them knows damn well that the cops either can't or won't arrest someone until people get hurt even in the face of things that any reasonable person would consider serious threats.
Knowing even a little history should be enough to know that Jewish students could very reasonably have been afraid and considered a mob of people banging on doors and windows trying to get in and chanting at them to be a legitimate threat. It doesn't help Palestinians at all to pretend that other stuff isn't happening (Dagestan, this incident, etc).
posted by Justinian at 1:49 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
i concur with the position that the mods don’t have the last say, and add that if they tried to have the last say the wounds to the community left behind from these threads (absolutely necessary threads and absolutely necessary wounds) would never have any chance of healing — this small community would be left much smaller and much unhealthier.
like delete antisemitism and islamophobia and leave comments saying genocide, so long as they’re grounded comments, and comments saying nazi, so long as there’s material in them other than abuse, and everyone who can stays calm and finds useful questions and useful news, insofar as questions are useful and news is possible.
i am also in favor of the meta conversations like this one happening here rather than being shunted off to metatalk, because it’s a way for people new to the threads to get their bearings about our collectively determined emerging discourse norms, and without those norms and how they were determined right here the newbies will likely blunder off of the piste we’re laying out and thereby out of ignorance fuxx0r the whole conversation forever.
i mean i’m totally okay with the mods deciding to keep the meta stuff like this in metatalk, i just wanted to be counted as a voice for keeping it all here.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
like delete antisemitism and islamophobia and leave comments saying genocide, so long as they’re grounded comments, and comments saying nazi, so long as there’s material in them other than abuse, and everyone who can stays calm and finds useful questions and useful news, insofar as questions are useful and news is possible.
i am also in favor of the meta conversations like this one happening here rather than being shunted off to metatalk, because it’s a way for people new to the threads to get their bearings about our collectively determined emerging discourse norms, and without those norms and how they were determined right here the newbies will likely blunder off of the piste we’re laying out and thereby out of ignorance fuxx0r the whole conversation forever.
i mean i’m totally okay with the mods deciding to keep the meta stuff like this in metatalk, i just wanted to be counted as a voice for keeping it all here.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. - The Pluto Gangsta
I believe this comment by mchelly was not deleted - it still shows in my feed.
posted by macfly at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe this comment by mchelly was not deleted - it still shows in my feed.
posted by macfly at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was deleted (at least, for awhile it was gone), but now appears to have been put back up.
posted by coffeecat at 1:59 PM on October 31, 2023
posted by coffeecat at 1:59 PM on October 31, 2023
Put back up -- with the inflammatory portion removed. I wondered, but was never certain until now, whether mods would or could edit user comments.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:02 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:02 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
mods would or could edit user comments.
Always could and would upon request for certain corrections (like to fix a bad URL), before the edit window.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on October 31, 2023
Always could and would upon request for certain corrections (like to fix a bad URL), before the edit window.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on October 31, 2023
The blame game between Netanyahu and the military took a massive turn on Saturday night, when Netanyahu pulled a Trump, rage-tweeting at 1am to point his finger at the military:
“Contrary to the false claims: Under no circumstances and at no stage was Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of Hamas’s war intentions...“On the contrary, all the security officials, including the head of military intelligence and the head of the Shin Bet, assessed that Hamas had been deterred and was looking for a settlement. This assessment was submitted again and again to the prime minister and the cabinet by all the security forces and intelligence community, up until the outbreak of the war.”
The reaction was swift and furious (archive), and Netanyahu deleted the tweet in the morning and apologized, saying "Things I said … should not have been said and I apologize for that." Whether that refers to his statement that he never got any warning, or whether he just now sees it was unseemly to criticize the military on the eve of a massive operation, is an open question. It's too early to tell what any investigation will reveal and if Netanyahu will be forced out. But headlines like this one don't bode well for him:
Netanyahu Tweet Deemed 'Psychotic' by Party Colleagues Could Hasten His Ouster (archive):
“Anyone aware of how those around the prime minister have behaved in recent years knows exactly what actually happened,” this source continued. “His wife, his son, his bureau staff – they’re all insanely detached from Israeli society and from what’s happening these days. They don’t understand the magnitude of events and the intensity of the feelings at all. They’re certain this disaster is just another crisis that they’ll manage to survive...This government definitely isn’t stable. I believe some of its elements will topple him, and not long from now, we’ll go to elections.”
The parallels with Trump are striking - a circle of isolated yes-people, including his wife Sara (who's been deeply involved in interviews of folks for military positions in the past and is fiercely protective of her husband), political allies who don't like or trust him, etc. I'm now much more inclined to believe former PM Olmert who said at 16:54 in this interview that Netanyahu will be gone for his failures, just like Golda Meir was forced out a few months after the 1973 surprise attacks.
posted by mediareport at 2:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
“Contrary to the false claims: Under no circumstances and at no stage was Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of Hamas’s war intentions...“On the contrary, all the security officials, including the head of military intelligence and the head of the Shin Bet, assessed that Hamas had been deterred and was looking for a settlement. This assessment was submitted again and again to the prime minister and the cabinet by all the security forces and intelligence community, up until the outbreak of the war.”
The reaction was swift and furious (archive), and Netanyahu deleted the tweet in the morning and apologized, saying "Things I said … should not have been said and I apologize for that." Whether that refers to his statement that he never got any warning, or whether he just now sees it was unseemly to criticize the military on the eve of a massive operation, is an open question. It's too early to tell what any investigation will reveal and if Netanyahu will be forced out. But headlines like this one don't bode well for him:
Netanyahu Tweet Deemed 'Psychotic' by Party Colleagues Could Hasten His Ouster (archive):
“Anyone aware of how those around the prime minister have behaved in recent years knows exactly what actually happened,” this source continued. “His wife, his son, his bureau staff – they’re all insanely detached from Israeli society and from what’s happening these days. They don’t understand the magnitude of events and the intensity of the feelings at all. They’re certain this disaster is just another crisis that they’ll manage to survive...This government definitely isn’t stable. I believe some of its elements will topple him, and not long from now, we’ll go to elections.”
The parallels with Trump are striking - a circle of isolated yes-people, including his wife Sara (who's been deeply involved in interviews of folks for military positions in the past and is fiercely protective of her husband), political allies who don't like or trust him, etc. I'm now much more inclined to believe former PM Olmert who said at 16:54 in this interview that Netanyahu will be gone for his failures, just like Golda Meir was forced out a few months after the 1973 surprise attacks.
posted by mediareport at 2:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Mod note: A few notes to avoid a derail:
– Mchelly's comment has been reinstated without the Dave Chappelle/Nazi Paragraph as agreed over private communication. Please refer to the Are posts or comments edited by mods? FAQ.
– I've reached out to The Pluto Gangsta privately as well to address their comment.
– If a post/comment violates the Content Policy or Guidelines, it will, most likely be removed, regardless of how "good for the most part" it is.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
– Mchelly's comment has been reinstated without the Dave Chappelle/Nazi Paragraph as agreed over private communication. Please refer to the Are posts or comments edited by mods? FAQ.
– I've reached out to The Pluto Gangsta privately as well to address their comment.
– If a post/comment violates the Content Policy or Guidelines, it will, most likely be removed, regardless of how "good for the most part" it is.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm not frequently in full agreement with Justinian, but I'm in full, 100%, agreement that we shouldn't be trying to dismiss or minimize the mob at New York City College. At the very least they were terrorizing those students.
While I doubt very much that Netanyahu planned for this sort of thing, I think it is undeniable that the spike in antisemitic attcks worldwide is a boon to the Israeli right wing. It frightens people, it makes militant solutions sound better, and those attacks can be used to try to discredit people who oppose his actions in Gaza. It absolutely does not help anyone to feed that propaganda mill.
We shouldn't be getting into hair splitting debates over whether the actions of a particular mob against a Jewsh person or people "really" counts as an attack. If you find yourself doing that you probably ought to rethink things, if for absolutely no other reason at all becuase it fuels the propaganda of the warmongers.
And, possibly more to the point, I'm doubtful that there is anything at all we here can do that will have any impact on the actions of Israel or Hamas. I could be mistaken, but none of us are anywhere near the levers of power.
But we do have the ability to impact other people, even just with words, and I think its incumbant on us in a position of privilige to check ourselves and not counterattack when people we know, even if just online, say things that hurt our feelings. If there was ever a time to cut other people a LOT of slack, this is that time.
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
While I doubt very much that Netanyahu planned for this sort of thing, I think it is undeniable that the spike in antisemitic attcks worldwide is a boon to the Israeli right wing. It frightens people, it makes militant solutions sound better, and those attacks can be used to try to discredit people who oppose his actions in Gaza. It absolutely does not help anyone to feed that propaganda mill.
We shouldn't be getting into hair splitting debates over whether the actions of a particular mob against a Jewsh person or people "really" counts as an attack. If you find yourself doing that you probably ought to rethink things, if for absolutely no other reason at all becuase it fuels the propaganda of the warmongers.
And, possibly more to the point, I'm doubtful that there is anything at all we here can do that will have any impact on the actions of Israel or Hamas. I could be mistaken, but none of us are anywhere near the levers of power.
But we do have the ability to impact other people, even just with words, and I think its incumbant on us in a position of privilige to check ourselves and not counterattack when people we know, even if just online, say things that hurt our feelings. If there was ever a time to cut other people a LOT of slack, this is that time.
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
Wiki outlines the Trial(s) of Benjamin Netanyahu — which are ongoing. (Don't change horses in midstream, anyone?)
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
I missed the whole appalling Nazi deletion thing, but since someone pointed out that the above is not accurate, I thought I'd add a link that states the initial reports of that incident, anyway, appear to have been greatly exaggerated: NYPD: No danger to students during Cooper Union protest:
“There was no direct threat, there was no damage and there was no danger to any students in that school,” Chell said on Thursday. “The students were not barricaded … A school administrator thought it was prudent to close the doors.”
Hey, it happens to us all, but when I find myself passing along something that turns out not to be true, I try to use it to make my contributions here better. The surge in anti-Jewish hatred across the world is real, though, and worrisome. Shitheads like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir are not helping with that.
posted by mediareport at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I missed the whole appalling Nazi deletion thing, but since someone pointed out that the above is not accurate, I thought I'd add a link that states the initial reports of that incident, anyway, appear to have been greatly exaggerated: NYPD: No danger to students during Cooper Union protest:
“There was no direct threat, there was no damage and there was no danger to any students in that school,” Chell said on Thursday. “The students were not barricaded … A school administrator thought it was prudent to close the doors.”
Hey, it happens to us all, but when I find myself passing along something that turns out not to be true, I try to use it to make my contributions here better. The surge in anti-Jewish hatred across the world is real, though, and worrisome. Shitheads like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir are not helping with that.
posted by mediareport at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm in full, 100%, agreement that we shouldn't be trying to dismiss or minimize the mob at New York City College. At the very least they were terrorizing those students.
Missed that above and it seems fair. It's questionable to trust the patrol chief who said the students told him "‘No, we feel safe, we're good,’ and they all left" when asked if they wanted taxis. I'd like to hear more from the students themselves, but can definitely imagine that as a frightening moment.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Missed that above and it seems fair. It's questionable to trust the patrol chief who said the students told him "‘No, we feel safe, we're good,’ and they all left" when asked if they wanted taxis. I'd like to hear more from the students themselves, but can definitely imagine that as a frightening moment.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
It would have been better had the protestors imagined their reaction to the reverse scenario, before rattling the doors and whatnot; even if it wasn't meant as anything but rowdiness towards authorities denying entry.
Meanwhile, this person has learned nothing about irony:
City Councilmember Inna Vernikov held a press conference Thursday afternoon demanding Cooper Union President Laura Sparks’ resignation.
“If she cannot handle this job, she needs to resign,” Vernikov said, displaying a box for Sparks’ belongings and a draft resignation letter.
Someone should have asked Vernikov if that's the box she used to keep her confiscated pistol in.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, this person has learned nothing about irony:
City Councilmember Inna Vernikov held a press conference Thursday afternoon demanding Cooper Union President Laura Sparks’ resignation.
“If she cannot handle this job, she needs to resign,” Vernikov said, displaying a box for Sparks’ belongings and a draft resignation letter.
Someone should have asked Vernikov if that's the box she used to keep her confiscated pistol in.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel really uncomfortable making this thread about the details of a locked door and how different people characterized the locking of said door or feel about the locking of said door at a protest in NYC when hundreds of people, including large numbers of children, are dying daily under a bombing campaign with no end in sight.
Anti-semitism is a very real problem in the world, but we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict to justify the killing of Palestinians. We simply can't ignore the context.
posted by ssg at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Anti-semitism is a very real problem in the world, but we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict to justify the killing of Palestinians. We simply can't ignore the context.
posted by ssg at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Let's be clear, even if the New York Post article is 100% factually correct, the "Jewish students cornered in library" framing is incredibly disingenuous based on what is reported. Some protestors went to rally against the university administration, they rerouted to a library, and there happened to be Jews among the people at the library. Because it's New York City. Where many of us live happily and, mostly, safely. I don't know what level of main-character syndrome you have to be at to think being in proximity to a protest has even the tiniest shred of meaningful comparison to living in a besieged city without water and fuel where multiple generations of families are being killed by bombs throughout the day.
posted by dusty potato at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes? But powerful generally, in terms of global acceptance, quality of life, influence? Only if you believe certain right wing truthers and their mutterings about space lasers and lizards. I do genuinely worry how little people interrogate the idea of Jews being globally powerful in ways that are dangerous or harmful, and where those ideas come from, and who benefits from them.
Also, please stop associating the very real fears of Jewish people around the world with the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government. Jews have lots of reasons to be afraid of aggression in public, above and beyond what's going on right now. Where I am in London, neo-Nazis and other antisemitic types have been painting swastikas and antisemitic graffiti outside of Jewish schools for years. That is also part of the context.
posted by fight or flight at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes? But powerful generally, in terms of global acceptance, quality of life, influence? Only if you believe certain right wing truthers and their mutterings about space lasers and lizards. I do genuinely worry how little people interrogate the idea of Jews being globally powerful in ways that are dangerous or harmful, and where those ideas come from, and who benefits from them.
Also, please stop associating the very real fears of Jewish people around the world with the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government. Jews have lots of reasons to be afraid of aggression in public, above and beyond what's going on right now. Where I am in London, neo-Nazis and other antisemitic types have been painting swastikas and antisemitic graffiti outside of Jewish schools for years. That is also part of the context.
posted by fight or flight at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
When I was younger, I thought that the 'us'-centricness of my mainstream Jewish socialization/education was a healthy response to the deep suffering we had been through as a people. But now I understand better that there was a huge missing piece in terms of teaching and learning solidarity, that mixed with white supremacy can lead to catastrophic myopia. It's really painful to learn that for so many people, the unstated coda to "Never again" was always "to us". But I am really heartened by the fellow Jews who have not only rejected the Gaza genocide but taken important initiative and visibility in the movement to stop it. When it comes to all this, my heart is super embittered but thanks to that, there's a little part of it that's full, too.
posted by dusty potato at 3:24 PM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:24 PM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes?
For clarity, my reference to the more powerful side in the conflict is to the state of Israel and its strong supporter the United States.
posted by ssg at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
For clarity, my reference to the more powerful side in the conflict is to the state of Israel and its strong supporter the United States.
posted by ssg at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
I found this letter from the outgoing Director of the NY Office of UN High Commissioner of Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber, to the High Commissioner to be powerful, clear-headed and sensible, even if the long-term solutions he writes about are hard to imagine right now. Twitter link to images of the letter.
Note that some are reporting that the letter is him resigning in protest, but it appears that he is actually retiring, per the Guardian.
posted by ssg at 3:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Note that some are reporting that the letter is him resigning in protest, but it appears that he is actually retiring, per the Guardian.
posted by ssg at 3:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The persistence of antisemitism is part of the reason many Jewish people are very protective of Israel even with its failings and problems. Why are Israelis reacting as they are to what they see as an existential threat, because of the memory of antisemitism and the violence that came with it. You can’t understand this conflict if you don’t recognize this as part of the problem. Just as you can’t understand this conflict if you don’t acknowledge the Nabka and the experiences of Palestinians post 1967.
posted by interogative mood at 3:33 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:33 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
As a side note, this whole thing has really opened my eyes (again) to how irrevocably Xitter has become a real swamp of misinformation. Some of the things I'm seeing RT'd into my feed about both Israel and Palestine are just completely, historically, factually incorrect but they have thousands of RTs. I can't tell if it's just exhaustion on the part of people sharing them, a disinterest in actually checking up on what they're saying, or an organised effort to muddy the waters (or a mixture of all of these).
posted by fight or flight at 3:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 3:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a side note, this whole thing has really opened my eyes (again) to how irrevocably Xitter has become a real swamp of misinformation.
Which is why, in an era with absolutely no shortage of villains and knaves to choose from, Elmo still manages to stand out.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which is why, in an era with absolutely no shortage of villains and knaves to choose from, Elmo still manages to stand out.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The insistence of some people on conflating the state of Israel/Zionism and Judaism surely bears some part of the responsibility for the unfortunate tendency of some protesting the actions of Israel to wrongly blame Jews as a collective. This idea has been explored at length here, among other places.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
The insistence of some people on conflating the state of Israel/Zionism and Judaism surely bears some part of the responsibility for the unfortunate tendency of some protesting the actions of Israel to wrongly blame Jews as a collective. This idea has been explored at length here, among other places.
I've had firsthand experience with antisemitic harassment in NYC. It was terrifying. I also think a lot of anxiety among the Orthodox community I was raised in is frankly disproportionate to the evidence. People are jittery and scared. The Holocaust will do that. Orthodox Jews are also visibly, distinctively identifiable as Jews in a way that more secular Jews aren't, which justifiably increases their anxiety. It doesn't help when certain people here feel the need to respond to every mention of antisemitism by repeating the refrain that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic. Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That does not mean that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. This is basic logic. Discussions of specific instances of antisemitism require specific responses. Bringing in the universal claim whenever people make specific claims amounts to the inductive claim that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism. You've made previous comments along the lines of "you're the real racist for calling people racist" regarding antisemitism. Maybe step away?
I would hope that we could take away from Mchelly's comment that there has been a rise in antisemitism in the past few weeks and people are scared, accept that as a salient aspect of the situation writ large, and move on, without centering antisemitism over the people dying or nitpicking every purported instance of antisemitism for legitimacy.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
I've had firsthand experience with antisemitic harassment in NYC. It was terrifying. I also think a lot of anxiety among the Orthodox community I was raised in is frankly disproportionate to the evidence. People are jittery and scared. The Holocaust will do that. Orthodox Jews are also visibly, distinctively identifiable as Jews in a way that more secular Jews aren't, which justifiably increases their anxiety. It doesn't help when certain people here feel the need to respond to every mention of antisemitism by repeating the refrain that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic. Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That does not mean that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. This is basic logic. Discussions of specific instances of antisemitism require specific responses. Bringing in the universal claim whenever people make specific claims amounts to the inductive claim that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism. You've made previous comments along the lines of "you're the real racist for calling people racist" regarding antisemitism. Maybe step away?
I would hope that we could take away from Mchelly's comment that there has been a rise in antisemitism in the past few weeks and people are scared, accept that as a salient aspect of the situation writ large, and move on, without centering antisemitism over the people dying or nitpicking every purported instance of antisemitism for legitimacy.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff. They have also claimed to have captured a Hamas stronghold in Western Jabalya of Hamas’ Jabalya Brigade. They claim the Jabalya Brigade played a key role in the October 7th attack. Hamas has officially denied that Biari was killed. Social media is full of rumors suggesting otherwise.
posted by interogative mood at 5:03 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 5:03 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
All these responses to Mchelly are part of the reason why I/P threads go wrong on MetaFilter all the time. The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.This is absurd.
"The participants in this thread are the real Nazis" is not "the least pushback". If anything, it is rhetoric "turned up so hot".
posted by Flunkie at 5:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a Jew, I am not threatened by others recognizing the horror of what is being done to Gaza. I believe the truth makes us safer. I believe justice makes us safer. King said, "True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." I believe a true peace makes us safer.
Anti-semitism is not pointing out the atrocities of the current campaign against Gaza, or the history that it grows from. On the contrary, to cast this work of truth as anti-semitic is to identify Judaism with the project of extirpating the Palestinians. That identification is itself anti-semitic. I do not believe our Judaism requires us to oppress another people. So I do not believe criticizing that oppression is anti-semitic.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
posted by grobstein at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
Anti-semitism is not pointing out the atrocities of the current campaign against Gaza, or the history that it grows from. On the contrary, to cast this work of truth as anti-semitic is to identify Judaism with the project of extirpating the Palestinians. That identification is itself anti-semitic. I do not believe our Judaism requires us to oppress another people. So I do not believe criticizing that oppression is anti-semitic.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
posted by grobstein at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
For those who are fans of deep philosophical dives, I thought I would share this article linked recently on the Drachim FB group (which, incidentally, is a great resource for those in the Jewish community feeling anguished and torn about the current atrocities and who feel like they have nowhere to turn to discuss things rationally and without recrimination):
Israel: Civilians and Combatants (unpaywalled, original link here), a 2009 article from the New York Review of Books by Avishai Margalit and Michael Walzer, that tackles the rather thorny philosophical underpinnings of whether Israel's tactic of mass and fairly indiscriminate bombings are justified in light of the Hamas attacks. The gist of it, as the original poster summarized, is that Israel's current (and past) approach to Gaza is immoral because it prioritizes the lives and safety of its soldiers over the lives and safety of Palestinian non-combatants, i.e. if you want to fight a moral war, your strategy necessarily requires that you risk the lives of your own military forces before you put civilians who cannot injure you in harm's way.
I haven't digested it fully yet, but I'm working my way through and would appreciate others' opinions, especially those who have more active brain cells at the moment.
posted by greatgefilte at 5:59 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israel: Civilians and Combatants (unpaywalled, original link here), a 2009 article from the New York Review of Books by Avishai Margalit and Michael Walzer, that tackles the rather thorny philosophical underpinnings of whether Israel's tactic of mass and fairly indiscriminate bombings are justified in light of the Hamas attacks. The gist of it, as the original poster summarized, is that Israel's current (and past) approach to Gaza is immoral because it prioritizes the lives and safety of its soldiers over the lives and safety of Palestinian non-combatants, i.e. if you want to fight a moral war, your strategy necessarily requires that you risk the lives of your own military forces before you put civilians who cannot injure you in harm's way.
I haven't digested it fully yet, but I'm working my way through and would appreciate others' opinions, especially those who have more active brain cells at the moment.
posted by greatgefilte at 5:59 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some commenters: "Why do some Jewish MeFites claim that this thread is hostile to them?"
Other commenters: Literally unironically dropping Hamas slogans in their comments.
I don't care that other commenters are trying to parse out the origins of "river to the sea". Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members. You are literally sloganeering for Hamas when you say things like that.
If you were to start telling black people "Go Back To Africa", I expect you to get thrown out of the room long before you try to explain that "actually, the resettling movement began with abolitionists and had the support of antebellum black Americans."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Other commenters: Literally unironically dropping Hamas slogans in their comments.
I don't care that other commenters are trying to parse out the origins of "river to the sea". Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members. You are literally sloganeering for Hamas when you say things like that.
If you were to start telling black people "Go Back To Africa", I expect you to get thrown out of the room long before you try to explain that "actually, the resettling movement began with abolitionists and had the support of antebellum black Americans."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I feel like this comment has been many times, but... You're basically making the argument that something like "land back" is calling for the expulsion of white people from North America. You're not the final arbiter of what phrases mean, and saying that "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is Hamas sloganeering is by no means a neutral position.
If you're dedicated to the worst-faith readings of everything, you're going to feel like you're being attacked. But I don't think people just have to accept that interpretation.
posted by sagc at 6:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
If you're dedicated to the worst-faith readings of everything, you're going to feel like you're being attacked. But I don't think people just have to accept that interpretation.
posted by sagc at 6:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
JFC. You're the only person who is conflating Zionism with Judaism. You do so every time antisemitism comes up. There has been an uptick in antisemitism since the start of this war. There's also been an uptick in Islamophobia, which has been rightly acknowledged here as terrible, and you don't hear anyone here saying that not all Zionism is Islamophobic. So why is it so important to you to keep reminding people that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic? Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism? Because all I'm seeing is people pointing out antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
JFC. You're the only person who is conflating Zionism with Judaism. You do so every time antisemitism comes up. There has been an uptick in antisemitism since the start of this war. There's also been an uptick in Islamophobia, which has been rightly acknowledged here as terrible, and you don't hear anyone here saying that not all Zionism is Islamophobic. So why is it so important to you to keep reminding people that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic? Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism? Because all I'm seeing is people pointing out antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I could also do without the slogans, but I'm sure some here find some of my sentiments as objectionable.
"Go Back To Africa"
This last bit seems kind of misaligned, Pro-Palestinian voices don't typically call for Jews to go back to Israel. But, as I intimated above, I do think that a lot of American POC (and doctrinaire leftists) would have trouble classifying the 'back to africa' movement as a program of 'settler colonialism' even if they would agree that they were trying to re-settle colonies of Westerners in Africa. (I don't think the kids marching through that SF high school would think so. Or your typical recently radicalized college student.)
It's seen as one of many diasporic national liberation movements of the era, typically with a socialist bent, of a people maintained as a permanent underclass by the empires they were subject to once alienated from their homelands. Most of which never made it past the initial organizing stages, or else beyond insurgency.
And if Israel had never been founded, Zionism would be in that camp too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:18 PM on October 31, 2023
"Go Back To Africa"
This last bit seems kind of misaligned, Pro-Palestinian voices don't typically call for Jews to go back to Israel. But, as I intimated above, I do think that a lot of American POC (and doctrinaire leftists) would have trouble classifying the 'back to africa' movement as a program of 'settler colonialism' even if they would agree that they were trying to re-settle colonies of Westerners in Africa. (I don't think the kids marching through that SF high school would think so. Or your typical recently radicalized college student.)
It's seen as one of many diasporic national liberation movements of the era, typically with a socialist bent, of a people maintained as a permanent underclass by the empires they were subject to once alienated from their homelands. Most of which never made it past the initial organizing stages, or else beyond insurgency.
And if Israel had never been founded, Zionism would be in that camp too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:18 PM on October 31, 2023
I don’t think anyone can rightfully call Jews immigrating to Palestine during the mandate as settler colonialism. What makes it settler colonialism is the—-you guessed it—-forcible and violent removal of a civilian population from their homes.
People can move anywhere they want—-if the African diaspora wants to move back to Africa, I think they should be able to do so! But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:29 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
People can move anywhere they want—-if the African diaspora wants to move back to Africa, I think they should be able to do so! But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:29 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism
The person who compared posters in this thread to tiki torch Nazis, for one? I mean, you could at least try to engage with the conversation that's actually happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
The person who compared posters in this thread to tiki torch Nazis, for one? I mean, you could at least try to engage with the conversation that's actually happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members.
Some of the people saying the things you are saying have caged a people in an open air prison, which they are now reducing to rubble. Some of the people saying the things I am saying are trying to save you from your complicity in this indelible crime.
I hope you will wake up and, when you do, I hope you can be gentle with yourself.
posted by grobstein at 6:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some of the people saying the things you are saying have caged a people in an open air prison, which they are now reducing to rubble. Some of the people saying the things I am saying are trying to save you from your complicity in this indelible crime.
I hope you will wake up and, when you do, I hope you can be gentle with yourself.
posted by grobstein at 6:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
grobstein take your patronizing attitude somewhere else. I see upthread that you identify as a Jew, and I do not have a problem with your views. However I experience sadness and confusion when I see you internalizing hate speech and regurgitating it without seeing the harm you do to other Jews on this site.
I hope one day, when a positive two-state solution exists between Israel and a Palestinian government that can commit to being a partner in peace, you can be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope one day, when a positive two-state solution exists between Israel and a Palestinian government that can commit to being a partner in peace, you can be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Serious question: what hate speech? What positions are off limits here, that grobstein has espoused? There are various positions that I disagree with in the comments here, but it's hard to have a conversation without, at minimum, specifying what you're saying is out of line.
posted by sagc at 6:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
You are not reading my earlier comment: "From the river to the sea" is a Hamas slogan.
Something I also said earlier: MeFites have been hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda, but will uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel.
I don't care if commenters above are trying to take it back or investigate its origins or de-stigmatize its usage. This is a slogan used by Hamas. Repeating it is sloganeering for Hamas. It is hate speech.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something I also said earlier: MeFites have been hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda, but will uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel.
I don't care if commenters above are trying to take it back or investigate its origins or de-stigmatize its usage. This is a slogan used by Hamas. Repeating it is sloganeering for Hamas. It is hate speech.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
It is only "Jewish self-flagellation" to criticize an ongoing genocide if I accept that Judaism is identified with the genocidal project. I do not.
posted by grobstein at 6:53 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
It is only "Jewish self-flagellation" to criticize an ongoing genocide if I accept that Judaism is identified with the genocidal project. I do not.
posted by grobstein at 6:53 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
This conversation is a farce. There isn't productive dialogue to be had with Zionists about the occupation because there's no there there aside from sleight-of-hand distractions, crybully tactics, and willful ignorance. The world sees it, and more and more fellow Jews see it.
posted by dusty potato at 6:54 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 6:54 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
That part isn't. But as with Israel (over land ownership), and the more 'textbook' forms of European imperial colonialism (like the European 'explorers' in the Americas, and their colonies) the guns usually come out after economic and political colonization going on for a while comes to a head. (Hawaii comes to mind too.) Don't want to derail, so I'll leave it there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
That part isn't. But as with Israel (over land ownership), and the more 'textbook' forms of European imperial colonialism (like the European 'explorers' in the Americas, and their colonies) the guns usually come out after economic and political colonization going on for a while comes to a head. (Hawaii comes to mind too.) Don't want to derail, so I'll leave it there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff. They have also claimed to have captured a Hamas stronghold in Western Jabalya of Hamas’ Jabalya Brigade. They claim the Jabalya Brigade played a key role in the October 7th attack. Hamas has officially denied that Biari was killed. Social media is full of rumors suggesting otherwise.
A quick scan through social media finds people suggesting that Jabalya was not a refugee camp at all (that solid multi-story buildings instead of crude tent cities mean that it was an ordinary town instead, and one that was a "well-known hotbed of Hamas activity" according to these accusers), that refugee camps still being in Gaza at all after decades of "home rule" demonstrate Hamas's inability/unwillingness to govern, and that those remaining in Jabalya today had been warned to evacuate and, thus, had made their choice. (Whether those people had the ability to leave, had anywhere to go to where anything resembling a life awaited them, whether those places would have accepted them in these or other circumstances, and who/what else prevented them (physically or otherwise) from leaving is left as an exercise for the reader.)
I'm not going to claim knowledge supporting or rebutting those accusations.
What I do know is that if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground in this war, that "they are the humans and Hamas are the savages" as a fairly common pro-Israel slogan attests, they have every opportunity to maintain it. They have massive advantages in technology, in resources, in logistics. They are far more capable of targeting attacks precisely, rather than bombing indiscriminately and shrugging away civilian casualties.
And when they do the latter, that is a choice that they have made.
posted by delfin at 6:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
A quick scan through social media finds people suggesting that Jabalya was not a refugee camp at all (that solid multi-story buildings instead of crude tent cities mean that it was an ordinary town instead, and one that was a "well-known hotbed of Hamas activity" according to these accusers), that refugee camps still being in Gaza at all after decades of "home rule" demonstrate Hamas's inability/unwillingness to govern, and that those remaining in Jabalya today had been warned to evacuate and, thus, had made their choice. (Whether those people had the ability to leave, had anywhere to go to where anything resembling a life awaited them, whether those places would have accepted them in these or other circumstances, and who/what else prevented them (physically or otherwise) from leaving is left as an exercise for the reader.)
I'm not going to claim knowledge supporting or rebutting those accusations.
What I do know is that if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground in this war, that "they are the humans and Hamas are the savages" as a fairly common pro-Israel slogan attests, they have every opportunity to maintain it. They have massive advantages in technology, in resources, in logistics. They are far more capable of targeting attacks precisely, rather than bombing indiscriminately and shrugging away civilian casualties.
And when they do the latter, that is a choice that they have made.
posted by delfin at 6:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
NEW: @UNHumanRights NY Office Director @CraigMokhiber resigns in protest over timidity of key parts of #UN system on issues pertaining to Palestinian Human Rights. In letter to @volker_turk he says: "This is a text-book case of genocide. The European, ethno-nationalist, settler colonial project in Palestine has entered its final phase, toward the expedited destruction of the last remnants of indigenous Palestinian life in #Palestine."
The tweet includes the letter and even after the excerpt it's pretty scathing.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
The tweet includes the letter and even after the excerpt it's pretty scathing.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Speaking from the heart: I don't think dusty potato or grobstein are promoting hate speech here (although I think that ending a comment with "from the river to the sea" was an unnecessarily provocative move). But one thing I do worry about with prominent Jewish pro-Palestine activists is how they can and are trotted out by antisemites as evidence that they can't be antisemitic, because they have Jewish allies. In the end, that's certainly not a reason to not stand up for one's principles, but I do think there's a responsibility for Jewish activists to call out left antisemitism and—especially right now—global antisemitism as well.
This is, of course, but one person's opinion in a sea of others—some of which agree, and some less so. I'm reminded of the exchange over grieving the victims of the Oct. 7 attacks that unfolded in Dissent a couple weeks ago:
Joshua Leifer, "Toward a Humane Left"
Gabriel Winant, "On Mourning and Statehood"
Joshua Leifer, A Reply to Gabriel Winant
Some activists might approach the discussion of global antisemitism right now the way that Winant approaches grief: it's too easy to mobilize for conservative purposes, and is therefore best swept under the rug (or at least suppressed). Respectfully, I side more with Leifer in this exchange, and I think his conclusion applies here, too: there needs to be a place to grieve on the left, and that includes recognizing antisemitism and anxiety about it. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily alienate potential allies (and, you know, minimize antisemitism and anxieties around it, which is bad in itself); perhaps not dusty potato or grobstein, but certainly others in this thread.
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is, of course, but one person's opinion in a sea of others—some of which agree, and some less so. I'm reminded of the exchange over grieving the victims of the Oct. 7 attacks that unfolded in Dissent a couple weeks ago:
Joshua Leifer, "Toward a Humane Left"
Gabriel Winant, "On Mourning and Statehood"
Joshua Leifer, A Reply to Gabriel Winant
Some activists might approach the discussion of global antisemitism right now the way that Winant approaches grief: it's too easy to mobilize for conservative purposes, and is therefore best swept under the rug (or at least suppressed). Respectfully, I side more with Leifer in this exchange, and I think his conclusion applies here, too: there needs to be a place to grieve on the left, and that includes recognizing antisemitism and anxiety about it. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily alienate potential allies (and, you know, minimize antisemitism and anxieties around it, which is bad in itself); perhaps not dusty potato or grobstein, but certainly others in this thread.
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
The thing I keep coming back to is how so many of the calls for Israel to ceasefire aren't paired with calls for Hamas to release the hostages, or at least let some international organization meet and account and vouch for their safety and treatment.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
posted by Salamandrous at 7:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
posted by Salamandrous at 7:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gaza was not an open air prison. Almost 60,000 Palestinians passed through the Erez Crossing between Israel & Gaza in just August of this year. About 35,000 passed through the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the same month. Permits are difficult but not impossible to obtain. There were lots of issues and delays getting the permits to people and that was frustrating. The blockade has been fairly loose the last few years with hundreds of millions of dollars being given to Hamas via Qatar and the Palestine Authority supposedly only to be used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons.
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
posted by interogative mood at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
posted by interogative mood at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ugh, Israel-Palestine 101: the US gives tons of money and bombs and guns to Israel (the bombs that were dropped on Jabalia were made in the US). I’m criticizing Israel because my tax dollars go to there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel-Palestine 201: The US gives tons of your tax dollars to Gaza as well
March 26, 2022: U.S. Support for the Palestinian People [State Dept.]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
March 26, 2022: U.S. Support for the Palestinian People [State Dept.]
Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinian refugees through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance.October 3, 2022: USAID Annual Spending to Support Palestinians and Peacebuilding Tops $150 Million [US AID]
The U.S. government plans to provide an additional $75 million in economic assistance to the Palestinian people this year. Additionally, the United States is also providing $45 million for programs to support the security sector including important improvements to the rule of law.
USAID has invested $150 million this past year to empower Palestinians to build thriving and resilient communities, promote inclusive development, and advance a two-state solution. Under the Biden-Harris administration, pending Congressional approval, USAID plans to program at least $500 million between 2021-2024 in total support to the Palestinian people. These activities will improve the lives of Palestinians through economic growth, health, youth empowerment, civil society organization support, water and sanitation, humanitarian assistance, and peacebuilding activities to lay the foundation for a two-state solution.October 18, 2023 (literally two weeks ago): U.S. Announcement of Humanitarian Assistance to the Palestinian People [WhiteHouse.gov]
As part of this funding, USAID is launching new programs to improve wastewater management in Tulkarem ($14.3 million), promote digital finance through a pilot activity ($1.0 million), develop technical and vocational skills for youth ($20 million), and bolster civic engagement in the West Bank and Gaza ($28.8 million).
President Biden announced today that the United States is providing $100 million in humanitarian assistance for the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. This funding will help support over a million displaced and conflict-affected people with clean water, food, hygiene support, medical care, and other essential needs.By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I assume MP would point out there's a difference between humanitarian aid and military aid, and a difference between aid to Palestinians and aid to Hamas. I grant that some humanitarian aid likely ends up in Hamas' pocket for weapons and stuff but it's not the same.
That being said we criticize people we're not giving tons (or any) aid to all the time.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
That being said we criticize people we're not giving tons (or any) aid to all the time.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.I don't think "my taxes pay for this" is particularly relevant to whether or not someone is "justified" in calling for something, but in any case... who thinks there's no justification for calling on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation?
posted by Flunkie at 8:23 PM on October 31, 2023
> By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.
this isn't the argument of a serious person. literally nobody here does not want the hostages to be released. not that it would matter if i called for it, but here, i call for it, release the hostages. i'd also call on israel to stop literally flattening gaza with countless massive bombs, which run a high risk of killing the hostages before they can be released.
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
this isn't the argument of a serious person. literally nobody here does not want the hostages to be released. not that it would matter if i called for it, but here, i call for it, release the hostages. i'd also call on israel to stop literally flattening gaza with countless massive bombs, which run a high risk of killing the hostages before they can be released.
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff.
Ah well, that's ok then.
Do we know if the innocent-to-terrorist kill ratio is specified in policy? Can we treat this action as typical? Then we have "dozens of civilians" killed for "several" terrorists eliminated. Shall we call it 8:1?
If yes, then going by the IDF 2021 estimate of 30,000 Hamas fighters... the corresponding potential civilian toll is left as an exercise for the reader.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
Um, what?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ah well, that's ok then.
Do we know if the innocent-to-terrorist kill ratio is specified in policy? Can we treat this action as typical? Then we have "dozens of civilians" killed for "several" terrorists eliminated. Shall we call it 8:1?
If yes, then going by the IDF 2021 estimate of 30,000 Hamas fighters... the corresponding potential civilian toll is left as an exercise for the reader.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
Um, what?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
From the article by Leifler linked above:
Earlier this week, as the death toll mounted in Israel and the bombing of Gaza intensified, Sahar Vardi, an Israeli anti-occupation activist and friend in Jerusalem posted an essay titled “Dual Loyalty” on Facebook. Although often an insult dealt to leftists, an accusation equivalent to treason, “dual loyalty,” she suggested, might be viewed another way. Indeed, she refigured it as a name for an exceptional emotional asset—the ability to “let one’s heart break from this, and from this,” to mourn the Israeli civilians killed, entire families wiped out, and to mourn the Palestinians killed in Gaza, crushed under the bombing, impoverished by sixteen years of blockade. But maybe, she added, loyalty isn’t the right world. “It’s a dual pain, dual heartbreak, care, love. It is to hold everyone’s humanity.”posted by jb at 8:32 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
To hold everyone’s humanity—that is the task of the hour
hundreds of millions of dollars being given to Hamas via Qatar and the Palestine Authority supposedly only to be used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons.
It continues to be strange to see people leave out the part about Netanyahu taking over the distribution of those Qatari millions from the PA so Israel could have a more direct role in strengthening Hamas and keeping it and the PA in opposition so Netanyahu would not have to negotiate a Palestinian state. If anyone still isn't aware, this 2019 Jerusalem Post article lays it out:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said.
Netanyahu explained that, in the past, the PA transferred the millions of dollars to Hamas in Gaza. He argued that it was better for Israel to serve as the pipeline to ensure the funds don’t go to terrorism. “Now that we are supervising, we know it’s going to humanitarian causes,” the source said, paraphrasing Netanyahu.
The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The comment about "supposedly being used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons" is particularly interesting given this recent JPost op-ed in which a legal scholar insists no country should deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza:
"As long as we have a degree of certainty that some of the aid is being diverted to Hamas – and we do have that certainty – then all the states of the world must refrain from providing this indirect support to Hamas."
Funny how it was ok when Netanyahu did it for years, but is now suddenly beyond the pale.
posted by mediareport at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
It continues to be strange to see people leave out the part about Netanyahu taking over the distribution of those Qatari millions from the PA so Israel could have a more direct role in strengthening Hamas and keeping it and the PA in opposition so Netanyahu would not have to negotiate a Palestinian state. If anyone still isn't aware, this 2019 Jerusalem Post article lays it out:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said.
Netanyahu explained that, in the past, the PA transferred the millions of dollars to Hamas in Gaza. He argued that it was better for Israel to serve as the pipeline to ensure the funds don’t go to terrorism. “Now that we are supervising, we know it’s going to humanitarian causes,” the source said, paraphrasing Netanyahu.
The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The comment about "supposedly being used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons" is particularly interesting given this recent JPost op-ed in which a legal scholar insists no country should deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza:
"As long as we have a degree of certainty that some of the aid is being diverted to Hamas – and we do have that certainty – then all the states of the world must refrain from providing this indirect support to Hamas."
Funny how it was ok when Netanyahu did it for years, but is now suddenly beyond the pale.
posted by mediareport at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Metafilter: To hold everyone’s humanity
posted by netowl at 9:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by netowl at 9:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gaza was not an open air prison. Almost 60,000 Palestinians passed through the Erez Crossing between Israel & Gaza in just August of this year. About 35,000 passed through the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the same month. Permits are difficult but not impossible to obtain.
That is very misleading spin. For context on the above happytalk, here's what it's like for a Palestinian trying to get through the Erez (aka Beit Hanoun) crossing into Israel, from June 2022:
It is notoriously difficult for Palestinians to enter and exit Gaza via Beit Hanoun – no one crosses the border without being granted permission by Israel and submitting to lengthy security checks. Permits to cross are only given to limited categories of people, such as medical patients and their companions, trader-permit holders, and other exceptional humanitarian cases.
The permit processing times for Beit Hanoun are known to be extremely long. It has been known for people seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza to wait for up to 50 working days for a permit, regardless of when their medical appointment is. It is also very common for Israeli authorities to not respond to permit applications, even when Palestinians in Gaza meet the travel permit criteria. Israeli rejections of permits are explained as being for security reasons, with no further explanation given.
And from the same article, a look at the process for crossing at Rafah into Egypt:
Restrictions at the crossing imposed by the Egyptian authorities are currently not as strict as they have been in the past, but limits on the number and type of people allowed to travel continue. This has forced many Palestinians in Gaza to pay expensive and unofficial “coordination fees” to the Egyptian side to be able to leave during the limited days the crossing is open.
Palestinian passengers also often complain about the behaviour of Egyptian security personnel, and what they describe as frequently humiliating searches. These measures can prolong the trip between Rafah and Cairo airport by up to 72 hours in some cases. The Rafah crossing does not allow Palestinians from the occupied West Bank to enter Gaza. Additionally, Israel does not allow people to return to Gaza via the Beit Hanoun crossing if they have left via Rafah. This puts Palestinians in Gaza in a difficult situation – if they leave through Rafah and it then closes, they may not be able to re-enter.
That "coordination fees" link is worth a read as well, from 2019:
For the vast majority of the 1.9 million residents of Gaza, the Rafah route is often the only viable option. In order to leave via Egypt, they register their request with the Hamas government, but with thousands of names on the waiting lists, approvals can take months.
This is where “travel agents and representatives” – Gaza-based brokers who work with Egyptian intelligence officers to expedite the movement of Palestinians, enter the scene...Hala agency is one of the largest companies offering such services. With offices in Gaza City, it arranges the trip for $1,200 per person, an amount equivalent to about three times the average monthly salary of a civil worker here...
A Palestinian official at the Rafah crossing, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told Al Jazeera that an average of two buses, carrying a total of about 100 Palestinians who had paid between $600-$1,200 per person, arrived at the crossing each day that it was open. “This vast amount of money is siphoned off from poor Gazans every month by the Egyptians,” said the official.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza, consistently pushing the line that Gazans have access to luxurious apartments and day spas, and sometimes (gasp!) even go surfing to get some joy out of life, but I do know two things:
1) you've refused to mention what year you were there (no one's asking with whom, or what village, etc, just "What year were you in Gaza?") and
2) you almost never offer any sources for any of your extraordinary claims as you continually make this kind of comment. It's disappointing, to say the least.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [28 favorites]
That is very misleading spin. For context on the above happytalk, here's what it's like for a Palestinian trying to get through the Erez (aka Beit Hanoun) crossing into Israel, from June 2022:
It is notoriously difficult for Palestinians to enter and exit Gaza via Beit Hanoun – no one crosses the border without being granted permission by Israel and submitting to lengthy security checks. Permits to cross are only given to limited categories of people, such as medical patients and their companions, trader-permit holders, and other exceptional humanitarian cases.
The permit processing times for Beit Hanoun are known to be extremely long. It has been known for people seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza to wait for up to 50 working days for a permit, regardless of when their medical appointment is. It is also very common for Israeli authorities to not respond to permit applications, even when Palestinians in Gaza meet the travel permit criteria. Israeli rejections of permits are explained as being for security reasons, with no further explanation given.
And from the same article, a look at the process for crossing at Rafah into Egypt:
Restrictions at the crossing imposed by the Egyptian authorities are currently not as strict as they have been in the past, but limits on the number and type of people allowed to travel continue. This has forced many Palestinians in Gaza to pay expensive and unofficial “coordination fees” to the Egyptian side to be able to leave during the limited days the crossing is open.
Palestinian passengers also often complain about the behaviour of Egyptian security personnel, and what they describe as frequently humiliating searches. These measures can prolong the trip between Rafah and Cairo airport by up to 72 hours in some cases. The Rafah crossing does not allow Palestinians from the occupied West Bank to enter Gaza. Additionally, Israel does not allow people to return to Gaza via the Beit Hanoun crossing if they have left via Rafah. This puts Palestinians in Gaza in a difficult situation – if they leave through Rafah and it then closes, they may not be able to re-enter.
That "coordination fees" link is worth a read as well, from 2019:
For the vast majority of the 1.9 million residents of Gaza, the Rafah route is often the only viable option. In order to leave via Egypt, they register their request with the Hamas government, but with thousands of names on the waiting lists, approvals can take months.
This is where “travel agents and representatives” – Gaza-based brokers who work with Egyptian intelligence officers to expedite the movement of Palestinians, enter the scene...Hala agency is one of the largest companies offering such services. With offices in Gaza City, it arranges the trip for $1,200 per person, an amount equivalent to about three times the average monthly salary of a civil worker here...
A Palestinian official at the Rafah crossing, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told Al Jazeera that an average of two buses, carrying a total of about 100 Palestinians who had paid between $600-$1,200 per person, arrived at the crossing each day that it was open. “This vast amount of money is siphoned off from poor Gazans every month by the Egyptians,” said the official.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza, consistently pushing the line that Gazans have access to luxurious apartments and day spas, and sometimes (gasp!) even go surfing to get some joy out of life, but I do know two things:
1) you've refused to mention what year you were there (no one's asking with whom, or what village, etc, just "What year were you in Gaza?") and
2) you almost never offer any sources for any of your extraordinary claims as you continually make this kind of comment. It's disappointing, to say the least.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [28 favorites]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
People have done. It doesn't fill much of the conversation though, because there is no pushback to it. We all agree. The hostages should be released. We're all busy talking about the things where we don't all agree.
posted by Dysk at 12:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
People have done. It doesn't fill much of the conversation though, because there is no pushback to it. We all agree. The hostages should be released. We're all busy talking about the things where we don't all agree.
posted by Dysk at 12:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Pope called for the release of hostages when requesting a ceasefire. The UN resolution did not mention the hostages or call for their immediate release. It also failed to mention Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I was referencing the conversation in this thread, for clarity, as that is how I initially read the comment I was responding to. The UN resolution is a product of a shitty political process and is flawed, should absolutely call for an end to immediate hostilities on both sides: stopping the bombing, and releasing the hostages. That it does not is a failing.)
posted by Dysk at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Rafah crossing seems to be open for very limited movement. There are photos of ambulances going through with the most seriously wounded (80 people mentioned, which is... nowhere near enough) and foreign nationals including Australians have been instructed to head to Rafah. A drop in the sea of need, especially if they don't allow aid to cross into Gaza.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
This maxim is becoming the "but her emails!" of the uncritically Pro-Israel side of this debate.
*Everyone* is calling for the release of the hostages. Some people are also suggesting that Israel stop indiscriminately bombing the place where the hostages are being held.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:15 AM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
This maxim is becoming the "but her emails!" of the uncritically Pro-Israel side of this debate.
*Everyone* is calling for the release of the hostages. Some people are also suggesting that Israel stop indiscriminately bombing the place where the hostages are being held.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:15 AM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
From the last thread:
A concrete example of how misinformation about the resolutions has been spread. The pro-Israel camp claims the original resolution says nothing about releasing the hostages. While true that it doesn't contain the word 'hostage', it contains this passage:
Calls for the immediate and unconditional release of all civilians who are being illegally held captive, demanding their safety, well-being and humane treatment in compliance with international law;
Seems to address hostages to me. I expect the problem is that it also includes countless Palestinian civilians that Israel has been locking up without charges for years.
posted by bcd at 2:02 PM on October 27
I presume that we all agree that anyone being held indefinitely on administrative detention should be offered a fair trial, in an impartial legal system, and then released if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they have committed what they are accused of? Assuming that they're all actually formally accused of anything, of course.
At the end of June 2023, the Israel Prison Service (IPS) was holding 147 Palestinian minors in detention or in prison on what it defined “security” grounds. At that time, the IPS was also holding 26 Palestinian minors for being in Israel illegally. B'tselem
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Last week I listened to two teenage Australian girls, maybe 14, report back from their family visit to the West Bank. Of course, having Palestinian heritage, they were not allowed to fly into Tel Aviv. They were turned back without explanation from the Al-Aqsa mosque, but were told it was for the best, this very year Israelis had attacked worshipers in the mosque. Someone else they knew had argued, once, with the Israelis, had gotten upset, had shouted, had been shot.
They told of their cousins, who laughed at their horror when told of the routine IDF presence in their schools and neighbourhoods, searching students' bags and routinely humiliating and abusing them. Such things are normal, in Palestine, apparently. They told of their cousins' car, with bullet-holes from random potshots by settlers or the IDF, of how the Palestinian plates marked it as a free target. There was certainly no question of visiting any family in Gaza.
They spoke of the extreme humility that was expected of the average Palestinian, how they were expected to endure degradation and abuse without comment or retort. Of how proud they were to be Palestinian-Australians and how they would keep being proud, no matter what came. They flew out October 5, perhaps "lucky" refugees, but I would not trade places with them, and I am the lucky one, that they are part of my local community, and Australia is fortunate to have them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
They told of their cousins, who laughed at their horror when told of the routine IDF presence in their schools and neighbourhoods, searching students' bags and routinely humiliating and abusing them. Such things are normal, in Palestine, apparently. They told of their cousins' car, with bullet-holes from random potshots by settlers or the IDF, of how the Palestinian plates marked it as a free target. There was certainly no question of visiting any family in Gaza.
They spoke of the extreme humility that was expected of the average Palestinian, how they were expected to endure degradation and abuse without comment or retort. Of how proud they were to be Palestinian-Australians and how they would keep being proud, no matter what came. They flew out October 5, perhaps "lucky" refugees, but I would not trade places with them, and I am the lucky one, that they are part of my local community, and Australia is fortunate to have them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [25 favorites]
I meant "interogative mood', not interobang, in the quote below. interogative mood is the person who posted the ridiculously misleading spin about the Gaza crossings.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza
posted by mediareport at 5:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza
posted by mediareport at 5:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
WSJ livestream: Hamas said seven hostages, including three foreign passport holders, were killed in Israel’s strike on Jabalia refugee camp.
posted by mediareport at 5:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 5:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
WSJ livestream: Hamas said seven hostages, including three foreign passport holders, were killed in Israel’s strike on Jabalia refugee camp.
Sounds like they did hit a bunker/tunnel complex, then.
I can't imagine how horrible it is for the hostages' families right now, not knowing if people are alive or in what condition. At one level, I can understand Israel's decision to basically say to Hamas that "holding hostages does not make you safe," and to attack anyway, because the alternative is to just create more incentive to hold hostages. But what a terrible set of choices, and the appeals from the families are heartbreaking.
Of all the decisions made in response to the initial attack, the decision to cut off water supplies seems to me to be the most indefensible. Hamas probably has some level of water stored for its fighters (and can take what water is available at the barrel of a gun), so they are relatively ok. This is just causing massive suffering to civilians. People need to drink, and be able to wash.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Sounds like they did hit a bunker/tunnel complex, then.
I can't imagine how horrible it is for the hostages' families right now, not knowing if people are alive or in what condition. At one level, I can understand Israel's decision to basically say to Hamas that "holding hostages does not make you safe," and to attack anyway, because the alternative is to just create more incentive to hold hostages. But what a terrible set of choices, and the appeals from the families are heartbreaking.
Of all the decisions made in response to the initial attack, the decision to cut off water supplies seems to me to be the most indefensible. Hamas probably has some level of water stored for its fighters (and can take what water is available at the barrel of a gun), so they are relatively ok. This is just causing massive suffering to civilians. People need to drink, and be able to wash.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
just take a minute to contemplate the coldness and inhumanity of disincentivizing hostage taking by killing the hostages
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
That was really useful, snuffleupagus, thanks.
When Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, he in effect quashed the possibility that East Jerusalem would ever belong to a Palestinian state. When he moved the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, in 2018, he signalled the abandonment of even the pretense of good-faith negotiations with the Palestinians.
Rather than use the prospect of these gestures as an incentive for Netanyahu to adopt a comprehensive peace plan in the region, Trump simply made them.
Lots more sharp stuff in that piece about Biden, Obama, Israel and Netanyahu.
posted by mediareport at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
That was really useful, snuffleupagus, thanks.
When Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, he in effect quashed the possibility that East Jerusalem would ever belong to a Palestinian state. When he moved the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, in 2018, he signalled the abandonment of even the pretense of good-faith negotiations with the Palestinians.
Rather than use the prospect of these gestures as an incentive for Netanyahu to adopt a comprehensive peace plan in the region, Trump simply made them.
Lots more sharp stuff in that piece about Biden, Obama, Israel and Netanyahu.
posted by mediareport at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Press statements from Hamas should be treated with, at the very minimum, the same amount of skepticism as commenters here are treating statements from the IDF or the Israeli government. Perhaps more, given that Hamas has an established pattern of media manipulation.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
obviously both sides view information as one of the weapons in their arsenal. this is the case with all conflicts. so maybe they're lying about hostages being killed there, or maybe not. but unless idf intelligence somehow has exact knowledge of where every hostage is, every time they drop a bomb they're declaring their indifference to whether a hostage might be killed or not.
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
every time they drop a bomb they're declaring their indifference to whether a hostage might be killed or not.
It's not indifference, but it is a strategic choice, versus allowing Hamas to operate safely behind human shields (both of local civilians and of hostages). Whether it is the smart strategic choice, I don't know; there is certainly plenty of opposition and controversy within Israel, for example, and we can all see the ethical problems.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's not indifference, but it is a strategic choice, versus allowing Hamas to operate safely behind human shields (both of local civilians and of hostages). Whether it is the smart strategic choice, I don't know; there is certainly plenty of opposition and controversy within Israel, for example, and we can all see the ethical problems.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gallant has outlined what he expects to be four stages:
posted by clawsoon at 7:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Gallant said that the current expanded ground activity, which began Friday evening, and an expected larger-scale ground maneuver, are only the second of four planned phases to the war. Israel opened the campaign with a three-week-long aerial bombardment of the Strip and limited ground raids...So that's what the Israeli government is telling us to expect: Many months of high-intensity warfare, followed by many months of low-intensity warfare, followed by some blanks to be filled in later.
...the military is preparing for a third, intermediate stage of fighting during which it will begin to seek out new leadership for the battered enclave, while rooting out “pockets of resistance.”
Only after this lower-intensity conflict, which is also estimated to take several months, Gallant has said, will Israel transition to its final phase: disconnection from the Gaza Strip.
The final phase of the war will “require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel,” Gallant said on October 20.
Apart from saying that neither Israel nor Hamas will control Gaza in the war’s aftermath, the defense minister did not detail what this disconnection would ultimately entail...
US leaders have shared lessons from their own experiences fighting a more targeted ground effort against the Islamic State in Mosul and a fuller invasion of Fallujah, during the Iraq War. The US has reportedly pressed upon Israel to consider a Mosul-like model.
Of these American-raised examples, the defense minister said “it’s not exactly the same” situation between Israel and Hamas, but that he is having an “ongoing conversation.”...
The defense minister stressed that Israel has no interest in reoccupying Gaza, but Israel has no clear plan for who, other than Israel and Hamas, will rule the Strip.
“Whatever will be next will be better, whatever it is,” Gallant said.
The defense minister said that he has already once before tried to eliminate Hamas, but his suggestions were not cleared by political leaders at the time...
“I’m the son of Holocaust survivors, I’m not going to allow it again,” Gallant said, of permitting Hamas or another terror threat to reside alongside Israel’s southern communities.
posted by clawsoon at 7:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
“I’m the son of Holocaust survivors, I’m not going to allow it again,” Gallant said, of permitting Hamas or another terror threat to reside alongside Israel’s southern communities.
Is he doing Hezbollah next? Because they're alongside Israel's northern communities...
posted by BungaDunga at 7:58 AM on November 1, 2023
Is he doing Hezbollah next? Because they're alongside Israel's northern communities...
posted by BungaDunga at 7:58 AM on November 1, 2023
A little good news: the Rafah border crossing with Egypt has finally opened. NYTimes is reporting dual-nationals and some seriously injured Palestinians are being allowed to leave today.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas official vows to repeat Israel attacks ‘again and again’ until it’s destroyed':
Ghazi Hamad, a member of the militant group’s decision-making political bureau, warned that Gaza leadership would replicate the coordinated Oct. 7 attack, referred to by the terrorists as Operation al-Aqsa Flood, which killed more than 1,400 Israelis and took some 240 hostages.posted by fight or flight at 8:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
“The al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time and there will be a second, a third, a fourth because we have the determination, the resolve and the capabilities to fight,” Hamad said in an Oct. 24 Lebanese television interview republished by British outlets Wednesday.
Hamad said that terrorist organization is willing to “pay a price.”
“We are called a nation of martyrs and are proud to sacrifice martyrs,” Hamad said. “Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nations, and must be finished.”
“We are not ashamed to say this, with full force. We must teach Israel a lesson and we will do this again and again.”
[...]
“The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood and tears,” Hamad said, calling the creation of the Jewish state “illogical.”
“It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified.”
People need to drink, and be able to wash.
I think people who live where infrastructure around public health and sanitation is good don't realize how important washing water is. Dysentery and typhoid can explode in situations like Gaza where people are jammed together without sufficient sanitation. Anne Frank famously wasn't killed by the Nazis directly but rather succumbed to typhoid from camp conditions.
posted by Mitheral at 8:19 AM on November 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think people who live where infrastructure around public health and sanitation is good don't realize how important washing water is. Dysentery and typhoid can explode in situations like Gaza where people are jammed together without sufficient sanitation. Anne Frank famously wasn't killed by the Nazis directly but rather succumbed to typhoid from camp conditions.
posted by Mitheral at 8:19 AM on November 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
Biden’s Conspiracy Theory About Gaza Casualty Numbers Unravels Upon Inspection
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Gaza-ification of the West Bank - new interview - Isaac Chotiner with Hagai El-Ad, an Israeli activist and the former executive director of the nonprofit organization B’Tselem, which works on human-rights issues in the occupied territories.
posted by toastyk at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
"I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1718107575781404897?s=20
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1718107575781404897?s=20
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just because I've lost track of what's been posted, I do want to note that Israel reopened one water pipeline on Oct 15 and then reopened a second one last week. The second article reports that in the attack Hamas damaged a third water pipeline so it can't be reopened.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
gaza had these things because of the beauty, perseverance, and strength of the Palestinian people under occupation. using the work of Gazans to minimize the horrible conditions they find themselves under - I have no words for what I think of this.
When did you go to Gaza and under what circumstances? The fact that you have continued to dodge this direct question makes everything you say about Gaza suspect. Why do you insist on minimizing the struggle of the Palestinian people in every comment you make? Why do you think your word as an outsider matters more than the word of Palestinians in Gaza? If it's not a prison, why can't they leave?
posted by JimBennett at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
gaza had these things because of the beauty, perseverance, and strength of the Palestinian people under occupation. using the work of Gazans to minimize the horrible conditions they find themselves under - I have no words for what I think of this.
When did you go to Gaza and under what circumstances? The fact that you have continued to dodge this direct question makes everything you say about Gaza suspect. Why do you insist on minimizing the struggle of the Palestinian people in every comment you make? Why do you think your word as an outsider matters more than the word of Palestinians in Gaza? If it's not a prison, why can't they leave?
posted by JimBennett at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
Al Jazeera English: LIVE: Israel hits Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza for the second time, a day after deadly Israeli air attack
In case anyone had doubts about either intent or regret.
posted by delfin at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
In case anyone had doubts about either intent or regret.
posted by delfin at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Arab-Israeli Knesset member and chairman of the Ra’am party Mansour Abbas has published an Op-Ed in The Times of Israel — For Arabs and Jews in these Dark Days Patience is a Civic Duty.
posted by interogative mood at 8:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
It was asked a bit earlier whether the IDF was to some extent "indifferent" to the risks of striking hostages or civilians. "Indifference" might be too charitable a word.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
It was asked a bit earlier whether the IDF was to some extent "indifferent" to the risks of striking hostages or civilians. "Indifference" might be too charitable a word.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
"GAZA STRIP, 5 June 2023 -Today, representatives of the United Nations, the European Union, and the Palestinian Authority officially marked the finalization of the Gaza Strip desalination plant expansion. With this milestone, water production capacity of the Southern Gaza Seawater Desalination Plant is substantially increased, reaching 175,000 more people."
Gaza, Sep 8 (EFE).- The Gaza Strip has turned to desalination after grappling with scarce access to water for years amid a stiff Israeli blockade and a flailing economy.
“Desalination is the only way to obtain drinking water, we have no other option,” Ahmed Robae, the director at Gaza’s largest desalination plant, tells EFE as he checks several pipes."
'LH and Iran are creating the expectation in the information environment that LH will escalate against Israel on or around November 3, possibly by increasing the rate of attack or by using more advanced systems.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian traveled to Qatar for further political coordination with Hamas leadership.'( ibid)
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gaza, Sep 8 (EFE).- The Gaza Strip has turned to desalination after grappling with scarce access to water for years amid a stiff Israeli blockade and a flailing economy.
“Desalination is the only way to obtain drinking water, we have no other option,” Ahmed Robae, the director at Gaza’s largest desalination plant, tells EFE as he checks several pipes."
'LH and Iran are creating the expectation in the information environment that LH will escalate against Israel on or around November 3, possibly by increasing the rate of attack or by using more advanced systems.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian traveled to Qatar for further political coordination with Hamas leadership.'( ibid)
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
okay this is what i'm talking about when i ask what an accepted hamas surrender looks like: clawsoon's last comment
this seems to be the government/military of israel, or gallant as a representative of the government/military, making a clear (well, clear-ish) statement of what a hamas surrender looks like.
the idf's stated goal is for neither israel nor hamas controlling gaza, and israel doesn't care who actually does control it so long as they're the ones who get to make the decision. they'll find someone to take it off their hands while they're killing people who resist the temporary occupation. whoever they pick will be "better," though currently there's no sense of israel's rubric for assessing betterness (like, better for whom? better for everyone or better for israel?)
the idf plan seems to preclude the possibility of surrender before the completion of the "third" phase of the war, which will take several months. the surrender (or something tantamount to surrender) can/will only happen during the "fourth" phase, the one where the idf extricates itself from gaza and passes it off to the successor power they decide on. the impossibility of surrender before the end of the third phase is either rooted in a belief that the statement of a member of the hamas political bureau is accurate and that hamas will always insist that it's impossible for either hamas or israel to surrender, or in a belief that no hamas surrender can be accepted before the end of the third phase, or some combination of both.
there is in that statement from gallant no clear indication of how long the fourth phase is expected to last, but it's known that the third phase will last several months. there is also no indication of what happens to the hamas soldiers or leadership who surrender. i think this is [omitted/not a concern] due to the perceived-or-real impossibility of surrender before the completion of the "rooting out" in the third phase.
i'm just going to go ahead and insist that my insistence on focusing on what a surrender looks like and when and how a surrender is possible is an extremely valuable project, since the possibility of surrender and the structure of surrender determines when the bombs that fall on buildings where people live and make the buildings non-buildings and the people ex-people stop doing that. both sides, wait, hang on, i've got to do the thing i do whenever i mention both sides:
⋆✧ 🎀 𝒷💞𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 ✧⋆
seem to be holding their senses of what surrender means close to their chests. hamas is bombastically demanding total annihilation of israel without possibility of surrender on either side (which is of course a statement issued for military tactical/strategical reasons rather than because it's cold truth) and israel isn't considering the possibility of surrender but instead has set out a timeline for the obliteration of their military opponents, which is a military measure meant to indicate their certainty that their plan will go off like clockwork and to indicate their sense that hamas's leadership either can't or won't surrender before the obliteration happens.
for my part i deeply wish that israel would lay out extremely detailed plans for what surrender means, with particularly clear explanations of the structure of post-hamas gaza will be, clear indications of the timeline for idf occupation, etc. etc. also i wish hamas would shut up about obliterizing israel, but since they're the weaker party with the desperate people in their territory i do judge them less for what they're saying. i dunno, feel free to judge me for that.
anyway, as a dummy who knows nothing what i really really really wish was that israel's line on surrender were more like "we are moving our armies out immediately after the surrender and then people wearing blue hats move in and they figure it out in collaboration with the people of gaza" but i am a naïve person who still despite it all, despite it all, still loves the people in blue hats and kind of wish they ran everything everywhere, or at least ran gaza and jerusalem. yes i know this is an impossibility for dozens of reasons, including the fact that no one involved loves the people in blue hats like i do and the fact that the people in blue hats aren't set up to do anything of the sort and also the fact that the people in blue hats can't do a damned thing at all unless the united states and the other permanent members of the blue hat decision guys council give them permission.
anyway, my naïvety aside, i wish very much a lot that israel's messaging and actions right now were devoted to propagandizing the people of gaza, and structuring their plans (both stated and real) around what makes that easiest. no one will believe them, of course, but it's still valuable to try, and if they actually did it we'd be two and three fourths of a step toward not having all this rockety rockety bomby bomby shooty shooty people become ex-people and buildings become ex-buildings stuff happen every ten years or so.
okay, i admit it, i didn't do a very good job there of setting aside my naïvety.
anyway. thinking about a surrender and what it might look like is if nothing else a pretty good way to cheer oneself up very slightly and to escape the psychological loop we're in where we, just like the combatants on oh god i've got to say it again don't i
・゚🌠 🎀 𝒷💍𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 🌠゚・
apparently think that the only possible outcome is murderation until obliterization.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
this seems to be the government/military of israel, or gallant as a representative of the government/military, making a clear (well, clear-ish) statement of what a hamas surrender looks like.
the idf's stated goal is for neither israel nor hamas controlling gaza, and israel doesn't care who actually does control it so long as they're the ones who get to make the decision. they'll find someone to take it off their hands while they're killing people who resist the temporary occupation. whoever they pick will be "better," though currently there's no sense of israel's rubric for assessing betterness (like, better for whom? better for everyone or better for israel?)
the idf plan seems to preclude the possibility of surrender before the completion of the "third" phase of the war, which will take several months. the surrender (or something tantamount to surrender) can/will only happen during the "fourth" phase, the one where the idf extricates itself from gaza and passes it off to the successor power they decide on. the impossibility of surrender before the end of the third phase is either rooted in a belief that the statement of a member of the hamas political bureau is accurate and that hamas will always insist that it's impossible for either hamas or israel to surrender, or in a belief that no hamas surrender can be accepted before the end of the third phase, or some combination of both.
there is in that statement from gallant no clear indication of how long the fourth phase is expected to last, but it's known that the third phase will last several months. there is also no indication of what happens to the hamas soldiers or leadership who surrender. i think this is [omitted/not a concern] due to the perceived-or-real impossibility of surrender before the completion of the "rooting out" in the third phase.
i'm just going to go ahead and insist that my insistence on focusing on what a surrender looks like and when and how a surrender is possible is an extremely valuable project, since the possibility of surrender and the structure of surrender determines when the bombs that fall on buildings where people live and make the buildings non-buildings and the people ex-people stop doing that. both sides, wait, hang on, i've got to do the thing i do whenever i mention both sides:
⋆✧ 🎀 𝒷💞𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 ✧⋆
seem to be holding their senses of what surrender means close to their chests. hamas is bombastically demanding total annihilation of israel without possibility of surrender on either side (which is of course a statement issued for military tactical/strategical reasons rather than because it's cold truth) and israel isn't considering the possibility of surrender but instead has set out a timeline for the obliteration of their military opponents, which is a military measure meant to indicate their certainty that their plan will go off like clockwork and to indicate their sense that hamas's leadership either can't or won't surrender before the obliteration happens.
for my part i deeply wish that israel would lay out extremely detailed plans for what surrender means, with particularly clear explanations of the structure of post-hamas gaza will be, clear indications of the timeline for idf occupation, etc. etc. also i wish hamas would shut up about obliterizing israel, but since they're the weaker party with the desperate people in their territory i do judge them less for what they're saying. i dunno, feel free to judge me for that.
anyway, as a dummy who knows nothing what i really really really wish was that israel's line on surrender were more like "we are moving our armies out immediately after the surrender and then people wearing blue hats move in and they figure it out in collaboration with the people of gaza" but i am a naïve person who still despite it all, despite it all, still loves the people in blue hats and kind of wish they ran everything everywhere, or at least ran gaza and jerusalem. yes i know this is an impossibility for dozens of reasons, including the fact that no one involved loves the people in blue hats like i do and the fact that the people in blue hats aren't set up to do anything of the sort and also the fact that the people in blue hats can't do a damned thing at all unless the united states and the other permanent members of the blue hat decision guys council give them permission.
anyway, my naïvety aside, i wish very much a lot that israel's messaging and actions right now were devoted to propagandizing the people of gaza, and structuring their plans (both stated and real) around what makes that easiest. no one will believe them, of course, but it's still valuable to try, and if they actually did it we'd be two and three fourths of a step toward not having all this rockety rockety bomby bomby shooty shooty people become ex-people and buildings become ex-buildings stuff happen every ten years or so.
okay, i admit it, i didn't do a very good job there of setting aside my naïvety.
anyway. thinking about a surrender and what it might look like is if nothing else a pretty good way to cheer oneself up very slightly and to escape the psychological loop we're in where we, just like the combatants on oh god i've got to say it again don't i
・゚🌠 🎀 𝒷💍𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 🌠゚・
apparently think that the only possible outcome is murderation until obliterization.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
All I will say, b.l.p., is that there is a reason that Israel is not laying out terms of a surrender and is instead bombing Gaza into oblivion, and the reason is not because they've forgotten to put it on their to-do list.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:29 AM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:29 AM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2023
AOC:
"AIPAC endorsed scores of Jan 6th insurrectionists. They are no friend to American democracy.
They are one of the more racist and bigoted PACs in Congress as well, who disproportionately target members of color.
They are an extremist organization that destabilizes US democracy."
This is a sea change in US politics about Israel-Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
"AIPAC endorsed scores of Jan 6th insurrectionists. They are no friend to American democracy.
They are one of the more racist and bigoted PACs in Congress as well, who disproportionately target members of color.
They are an extremist organization that destabilizes US democracy."
This is a sea change in US politics about Israel-Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The displacement of Palestinians and the growth of settlements—these are two processes that go hand in hand. This is not about this government, this is not about Netanyahu or his ministers. This is an Israeli project that has been unfolding under left, right, and center governments. Each and every one of them have been doing exactly this since 1967. Let’s not be ahistorical. That is a key part of understanding what is unfolding here. Because if there’s a sense that somehow this is about, as I said before, “bad settlers” or this is somehow about a specific individual who has been Prime Minister for a long time, then we’re missing the bigger picture.Hagai El-Ad interviewed by Isaac Chotiner on what is happening in the West Bank.
posted by ssg at 9:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
Excerpts--towards a summary--from Artful Codger's link, emphases mine. (I was surprised to see something like this on CNN.com.)
Excerpts--towards a summary--from Artful Codger's link, emphases mine. (I was surprised to see something like this on CNN.com.)
To defeat terrorist groups like Hamas, it is important to separate the terrorists from the local population from which they emerge.posted by kensington314 at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Although the principle — of separating the terror group from the broader population — is simple, it is incredibly difficult to achieve in practice.
This is why Israel and the United States have waged major military operations that killed large numbers of existing terrorists in the near term — but ultimately led to the rise of many more terrorists, often in a matter of months.
American forces completely defeated Saddam Hussein’s army within 6 weeks. However, these heavy military operations led to the largest suicide terrorist campaign in modern times, a major civil war in Iraq and ultimately, the rise of ISIS.
In Gaza, this tragic pattern is probably already happening. Right now, we are witnessing not the separation of Hamas and the local population, but the growing integration of the two, with likely growing recruitment for Hamas.
To defeat terrorist groups, it is crucial to engage in long campaigns of selective pressure, over years, not simply a month (or two, or three) of heavy ground operations, and to combine military operations with political solutions from early on.
Indeed, the very effort to finish off the terrorists in just a month or two militarily with little idea of the political outcome — as Israel appears to be doing now — is what ends up producing more terrorists than it kills.
There is an alternative: now, not later, start the political process toward a pathway to a Palestinian state, and create a viable political alternative for Palestinians to Hamas.
This could, over time, separate Hamas from the local population more and more, and so lead to significant success. It must be the Palestinians who decide who leads Gaza.
This new strategic conception is the best way to defeat Hamas, secure Israel’s population and advance America’s interests in the region.
Robert A. Pape is a professor of political science and director of the University of Chicago Project on Security and Threats. He is the author of several books on air power and terrorism, including “Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War.”
AOC's tweet seems a rather strange line of attack, avoiding the substance of what AIPAC actually lobbies for.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023
Many months of high-intensity warfare, followed by many months of low-intensity warfare, followed by some blanks to be filled in later.
Yeah, and those blanks - the lack of a clear end strategy from Netanyahu and his pals - is interfering with the military operation, according to this Ha'aretz analysis on Monday: What Is Israel’s Endgame in Gaza? These Are the Three Key Dilemmas (archive):
A senior security official complained over the weekend that the situation Israel wants to see in Gaza after the fighting ends has major implications for planning the ground maneuvers. The government’s reluctance to deal with this leaves the IDF and Defense Ministry to try to define these objectives, even though it should be the cabinet’s decision. With the ground offensive now underway, the generals have little choice but to guess what Israel’s endgame in Gaza will be.
Of course, we know exactly what end game the far-right racists in Netanyahu's coalition want to see:
Religious far-right ministers are not yet speaking of this openly but seven months ago, when the coalition passed the abolition of the Disengagement Law (largely a symbolic move) in the Knesset, National Missions Minister Orit Strock said in an interview that “there is no doubt that [the Gaza Strip] is part of the land of Israel and there will be a day when we return to it.”
The far right understands that talking about this now will cause public anger. However, in one of the expanded security cabinet meetings, extremist National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir stated: “We need to hold on to the territory.”
[...] We’ve learned the hard way that nothing is out of question for the most extreme government in Israel’s history. But it’s hard to see how any of these proposals can become policy in an era where Israel has become more dependent than ever on the United States. None of these ideas are in any way being considered or taken seriously in the defense establishment. Any move toward long-term occupation of parts of the Gaza Strip, let alone rebuilding some of the settlements there, would lead to Israel’s diplomatic isolation and the cessation of U.S. support. Just talking about these ideas is damaging enough to Israel.
I really don't know about that last part. Would Biden really cut off all U.S. military aid if Israel decides to build new settlements in Gaza? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, the article is long but worth a read as it goes on to discuss the practical dilemmas involved, one of which is this:
It is highly unlikely that the handover can take place directly from the IDF to the PA. Abbas will not be prepared to be seen as returning to Gaza on Israel’s bayonets. In addition, the PA’s security apparatus will not be able to take over the entire Gaza Strip in one go and will need time to gradually deploy, as well as recruiting and training more men. There will have to be another force in Gaza, providing security in the interim and helping the PA build up.
One of the key questions that is already being asked quietly is whether, among the Arab governments with which Israel has relations, any will be prepared to contribute to a “peacekeeping force” that will manage the transition.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, and those blanks - the lack of a clear end strategy from Netanyahu and his pals - is interfering with the military operation, according to this Ha'aretz analysis on Monday: What Is Israel’s Endgame in Gaza? These Are the Three Key Dilemmas (archive):
A senior security official complained over the weekend that the situation Israel wants to see in Gaza after the fighting ends has major implications for planning the ground maneuvers. The government’s reluctance to deal with this leaves the IDF and Defense Ministry to try to define these objectives, even though it should be the cabinet’s decision. With the ground offensive now underway, the generals have little choice but to guess what Israel’s endgame in Gaza will be.
Of course, we know exactly what end game the far-right racists in Netanyahu's coalition want to see:
Religious far-right ministers are not yet speaking of this openly but seven months ago, when the coalition passed the abolition of the Disengagement Law (largely a symbolic move) in the Knesset, National Missions Minister Orit Strock said in an interview that “there is no doubt that [the Gaza Strip] is part of the land of Israel and there will be a day when we return to it.”
The far right understands that talking about this now will cause public anger. However, in one of the expanded security cabinet meetings, extremist National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir stated: “We need to hold on to the territory.”
[...] We’ve learned the hard way that nothing is out of question for the most extreme government in Israel’s history. But it’s hard to see how any of these proposals can become policy in an era where Israel has become more dependent than ever on the United States. None of these ideas are in any way being considered or taken seriously in the defense establishment. Any move toward long-term occupation of parts of the Gaza Strip, let alone rebuilding some of the settlements there, would lead to Israel’s diplomatic isolation and the cessation of U.S. support. Just talking about these ideas is damaging enough to Israel.
I really don't know about that last part. Would Biden really cut off all U.S. military aid if Israel decides to build new settlements in Gaza? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, the article is long but worth a read as it goes on to discuss the practical dilemmas involved, one of which is this:
It is highly unlikely that the handover can take place directly from the IDF to the PA. Abbas will not be prepared to be seen as returning to Gaza on Israel’s bayonets. In addition, the PA’s security apparatus will not be able to take over the entire Gaza Strip in one go and will need time to gradually deploy, as well as recruiting and training more men. There will have to be another force in Gaza, providing security in the interim and helping the PA build up.
One of the key questions that is already being asked quietly is whether, among the Arab governments with which Israel has relations, any will be prepared to contribute to a “peacekeeping force” that will manage the transition.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
> All I will say, b.l.p., is that there is a reason that Israel is not laying out terms of a surrender
okay i wanna say a little more than just "indeed" cause i want to indicate that all my cutesy ultra-voicey stuff is for a purpose and to an end. it is good to imagine what an israel that is definitively, conclusively not doing that looks like. and feel free to put whichever word comes to the top of your mind in the place of "that." anyway it's good to try to imagine what an israel that's not doing whatever word you're thinking looks like, and assessing the differences between that imagined israel and the non-imagined israel can be a means to more clearly seeing what the real israel is doing and the extent to which the real non-imagined israel is that-doing or not-that-doing.
and fuck it all i don't know about you but the only way i can get my imagination to work that way is by thinking in the language of an extraordinarily precocious child who might be from outer space, because god damn it's hard to get an adult earthling aged-out-of-precocity-a-long-time-ago mind to think that it'll ever end and that it'll ever stop happening every ten years or so.
tl;dr: indeed. bombastic lowercase pronouncements out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2023
okay i wanna say a little more than just "indeed" cause i want to indicate that all my cutesy ultra-voicey stuff is for a purpose and to an end. it is good to imagine what an israel that is definitively, conclusively not doing that looks like. and feel free to put whichever word comes to the top of your mind in the place of "that." anyway it's good to try to imagine what an israel that's not doing whatever word you're thinking looks like, and assessing the differences between that imagined israel and the non-imagined israel can be a means to more clearly seeing what the real israel is doing and the extent to which the real non-imagined israel is that-doing or not-that-doing.
and fuck it all i don't know about you but the only way i can get my imagination to work that way is by thinking in the language of an extraordinarily precocious child who might be from outer space, because god damn it's hard to get an adult earthling aged-out-of-precocity-a-long-time-ago mind to think that it'll ever end and that it'll ever stop happening every ten years or so.
tl;dr: indeed. bombastic lowercase pronouncements out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2023
More evidence that Israel is working various angles to get Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egypt: Israel reportedly proposed writing off Egypt's debts [via World Bank] for hosting Gaza refugees.
posted by coffeecat at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thanks mediareport. In my own naive and under-informed view, a durable two-state solution would need the backing and support of the Arab nations, including peacekeeping responsibilities.
This seems to be just another pipedream that has become even less likely at this time.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
This seems to be just another pipedream that has become even less likely at this time.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
More evidence that Israel is working various angles to get Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egyp
You mean "ethnically cleanse Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
You mean "ethnically cleanse Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
AP: Israeli airstrikes hit apartment buildings in a refugee camp near Gaza City for a second day in a row
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
get Palestinians out
at least (and literally) expulsion, with those historical echoes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
at least (and literally) expulsion, with those historical echoes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can we not nitpick people's language? I shared that link because mediareport's last post reminded me of it - I assumed it would be pretty clear in the context of this thread that pressuring Egypt to accept refugees is akin to expulsion.
posted by coffeecat at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just in case anyone is still wondering why not all Jews (especially those on the left) feel Israel is a safe place, let alone a home:
Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four
Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four
Hundreds of right-wing activists have engaged in violent attacks on Israeli Arabs and left-wing activists since the start of the war with Hamas, but Israel Police have detained only four suspects.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
The small number of arrests is despite the fact that many incidents have been filmed, and the perpetrator's faces are easily identified. In the two incidents that have led to arrests, the suspects were detained on the spot and not as the result of a police investigation, which, as history shows, rarely leads to indictments.
Three of those who were arrested were among hundreds of people, including members of La Familia, allegedly involved in storming Sheba Hospital on October 11. They had arrived at the hospital after hearing baseless reports that the medical center had been treating terrorists in the wake of the October 7 attacks.
[ . . . ]
Frey, a Haredi leftist, had been targeted after a video was posted of him saying Kaddish (the Jewish mourners' prayer) for all the victims of the war, including hundreds of women and children in Gaza.
Frey said he was escorted by police officers from his home to his car, but was then left alone to flee, chased by rightist extremists to the Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv, where he took shelter while some of the attackers waited for him outside.
When Americans and others think refugee camp they probably have something much different in mind that the Jabalya refugee camp. This isn’t a tent city or a bunch of trailers. Jabalya is more accurately thought of as a city founded by refugees. Many of the buildings are 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing. lots of that vintage brutalist architecture used for public housing projects in the Americas and Europe. Complete with all the usual problems of that model of development. If you’re in your imagination Gaza is a prison; then Jabalya is probably comes closest to that.
High poverty, joblessness and violence make this a fertile recruiting ground for Hamas and other militant groups. Its pre October 7th population density was about 49,000 people per square kilometers.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
posted by interogative mood at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
High poverty, joblessness and violence make this a fertile recruiting ground for Hamas and other militant groups. Its pre October 7th population density was about 49,000 people per square kilometers.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
posted by interogative mood at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think we know that it's densely populated? And instead of using that as an excuse for civilian deaths, we're horrified that there have been multiple air strikes against it, regardless of whether it's a "fertile recruiting ground". Honestly, that sentence sounds very dog-whistle-esque.
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
You gotta stop this apologia. No one is buying what you are selling.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
Yeahh....dropping six huge fucking bombs isn't a battle its a massacre.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
Yeahh....dropping six huge fucking bombs isn't a battle its a massacre.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
hey, give the audience what they want, don't forget to add in previous greatest hits like "israel's response has actually been quite restrained" and "netenyahu isn't the commander of hamas" before ignoring all replies and moving on to the new material
posted by Flunkie at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Isn't there some kind of script or something you can use to ignore a member? I looked on MeFi Wiki but couldn't find it, but I think I've heard people talk about this add-on?
posted by kensington314 at 1:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 1:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mods have asked multiple times for commentary in this thread not to keep circling back to direct arguments with other Mefites. I get that some of you seem to have a personal problem with certain other members but seriously, if you don't like a comment, flag and move on. This is just starting to look like bullying, frankly.
posted by fight or flight at 1:27 PM on November 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:27 PM on November 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
ugh i keep getting sucked back in.
so it strikes me that there are two parallel conversations in play:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
so it strikes me that there are two parallel conversations in play:
- the dispute over whether or not israel's army and air force are doing that
- the dispute about whether or not it's sadly necessary that israel's army and air force do that
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It doesn't matter how nice the building you live in is when it's destroyed and your family members are killed. Literally no one is going to be less sympathetic to Gazans on the basis that they don't live in tents and they can have nice things. When people describe Gaza as a prison they are not picturing Alcatraz. Quality of life is not measured by whether you can go to an ice cream store or have a cell phone. It is measured by the freedom to pursue your own ends without worrying about your safety or the fulfillment of your needs. Life in Gaza does not come close to meeting that standard.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
i'm pretty hung up on the buildings, and i'm not sure why. maybe it's because without the buildings there's a lot less hope for the people who are alive but not living in their buildings anymore. but also maybe it's because i've recently bought a house and am beyond horrified that the idea that my house might get exploded and all the stuff inside it too, like my computer and tv and toys like that, and my pots and pans, and my cutlery, and my diaries and the cool poster that's like a wpa-era national parks poster but it's for san junipero, and a concert poster from the tour where janelle monae opened for of montreal (isn't that absurd?) and the desk-drawer notepads i keep bad fiction i never quite get around to writing enough of in, and my silly little dog with long fur (a luxurious double coat, in fact) and stubby little legs and a fantail that wags and wags and she spins around and sneezes when she's happy and she's pretty happy most of the time, and she always always always wants me to play with her, any time day or night, morning or evening, and she gets bored of fetch but she loves it when i hold her favorite little rag toy and make her chase it in circles and figure eights, and seeing her was maybe the #1 thing that got my students to pay attention to online classes during the worst of the pandemic, whenever she showed up in the room behind me the chat would immediately fill up with people saying "dog dog dog dog dog!!!!" and "😍😍😍😍😍😍😍 we love you [dog's name]" and people would go get their partners and family members because [dog's name] was on screen.
my house is where i keep all my stuff, basically, and i have a very good and devoted friend who knows four (count 'em, four!) tricks who's always there except when i'm taking her on walks, and most of my money is no longer liquid but instead tied up in the house where i keep all my stuff, and god damn if someone were to drop a bomb on it, even if i weren't there when it happened, i don't know how i'd go on.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:54 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
my house is where i keep all my stuff, basically, and i have a very good and devoted friend who knows four (count 'em, four!) tricks who's always there except when i'm taking her on walks, and most of my money is no longer liquid but instead tied up in the house where i keep all my stuff, and god damn if someone were to drop a bomb on it, even if i weren't there when it happened, i don't know how i'd go on.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:54 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
And also, just think: to be made homeless, with no restitution and no map forward, on the same day that your neighbors were killed, your family, your dog, and by the very same people who made you homeless. How to go on?
posted by kensington314 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve avoided direct responses, but this pile on seems to be getting out of control. I’m describing the places and explaining the present situation as I see it based on my life experiences and education.
Some of you seem to be directing your anger at the present situation at me — as if somehow I have some control over events. Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse. It feels like talking to some stereotypical Reagan Republican from the American Midwest who thinks the film Fort Apache, the Bronx is an accurate depiction of New York City.
posted by interogative mood at 2:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some of you seem to be directing your anger at the present situation at me — as if somehow I have some control over events. Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse. It feels like talking to some stereotypical Reagan Republican from the American Midwest who thinks the film Fort Apache, the Bronx is an accurate depiction of New York City.
posted by interogative mood at 2:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
blp, I think I'm about as removed from what is happening as you are. Mostly life goes on, the presence of what is happening and the thousands of lives affected, it's a presence, but then I turn on a tap for water, I get ready for bed, I open a drawer and retrieve some mundane item. we are left to imagine how circumstances are so different for many others, hopefully we can all at reach least empathy.
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
posted by elkevelvet at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
posted by elkevelvet at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews.
this is kind of a psychotic thing to post.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
this is kind of a psychotic thing to post.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
> Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse
here's gaza city center on google maps, it's a big mall. the reviews say that you can buy very pretty women's clothes there, and it looks like you can rent wedding dresses too, but be warned that everything is expensive or so say several reviewers. it's often very busy, but everyone agrees that the view from the top floors is gorgeous. four months ago reviewer ariel pak described it as "so fun." google says it opens at 9:30 am, but i doubt that and even if it did open at 9:30 am or at all it would still be a pretty bad day to go i think.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
here's gaza city center on google maps, it's a big mall. the reviews say that you can buy very pretty women's clothes there, and it looks like you can rent wedding dresses too, but be warned that everything is expensive or so say several reviewers. it's often very busy, but everyone agrees that the view from the top floors is gorgeous. four months ago reviewer ariel pak described it as "so fun." google says it opens at 9:30 am, but i doubt that and even if it did open at 9:30 am or at all it would still be a pretty bad day to go i think.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews
By this logic, the Holocaust wasn't a genocide because there were over four million Jews in the USA in 1942. Are you even aware of what you're actually saying? Fucksake.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
By this logic, the Holocaust wasn't a genocide because there were over four million Jews in the USA in 1942. Are you even aware of what you're actually saying? Fucksake.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
One thing we can all do is give what we can, even if it's small, to Doctors Without Borders.
posted by kensington314 at 2:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
One thing we can all do is give what we can, even if it's small, to Doctors Without Borders.
posted by kensington314 at 2:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
it's possible that many of us understand that Gaza is (was?) "normal" in many ways and still feel like that does not erase the fact that the people in Gaza are and were oppressed, even as they surfed and went to the mall. Their joy does not invalidate their suffering.
posted by JimBennett at 2:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by JimBennett at 2:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
JimBennett, editing your comments to remove the insults and attacks against other members is neither big nor clever. Just in case you think that nobody saw that.
posted by fight or flight at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fight or flight at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's big or clever, I just decided I wanted to say something more constructive. How I feel about the user in question is less relevant than how I feel about the strife of Palestinians.
posted by JimBennett at 2:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JimBennett at 2:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
interogative mood, the first I personally took particular notice of you "avoiding direct responses" was when you posted that people talking about Israelis as colonizers were antisemitic. I think a lot of what's been going on for a long time in the "settlements" is pretty textbook "colonization", so I said so, and asked if you believe that I am antisemitic because of that.
No response.
You made a blanket accusation of antisemitism that seemed consistent with calling me, among many others, an antisemiite, because of an opinion that I hold that seems to me to be reasonable and true. When asked about it to clarify whether you really do believe that I am an antisemite because of that opinion, no response.
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way. You just ignore "that's misleading and here's why", and go on to your next misleading comment. And you make a whole lot of misleading (and/or inflammatory) comments.
Perhaps this is why people have gotten upset with you? I know it's why I'm upset with you. I am not upset with you due to supposedly being "upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy", as you claim to believe. I am upset with you because over and over and over, for two threads now, you sure seem to be constantly and consistently arguing in bad faith.
I'll shut up about you after this post. I first want to say, though, that I am, in general, not a fan of moderation-by-deletion, but I feel like if the mods are going to use that to enforce "Don't express annoyance at other members for things they have said", they should also keep an eye out for people who have constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith, leading others to being annoyed at them for constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith.
Or, I dunno, yeah, maybe it's just that I'm upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy. You're right, that's probably it.
posted by Flunkie at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
No response.
You made a blanket accusation of antisemitism that seemed consistent with calling me, among many others, an antisemiite, because of an opinion that I hold that seems to me to be reasonable and true. When asked about it to clarify whether you really do believe that I am an antisemite because of that opinion, no response.
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way. You just ignore "that's misleading and here's why", and go on to your next misleading comment. And you make a whole lot of misleading (and/or inflammatory) comments.
Perhaps this is why people have gotten upset with you? I know it's why I'm upset with you. I am not upset with you due to supposedly being "upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy", as you claim to believe. I am upset with you because over and over and over, for two threads now, you sure seem to be constantly and consistently arguing in bad faith.
I'll shut up about you after this post. I first want to say, though, that I am, in general, not a fan of moderation-by-deletion, but I feel like if the mods are going to use that to enforce "Don't express annoyance at other members for things they have said", they should also keep an eye out for people who have constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith, leading others to being annoyed at them for constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith.
Or, I dunno, yeah, maybe it's just that I'm upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy. You're right, that's probably it.
posted by Flunkie at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
That is why, when you have the option, you should choose to not have a "battle" in Jabalya.
Israel has that option.
Especially if the "battle" involves dropping bombs from a great height onto poor, jobless people in 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
That is why, when you have the option, you should choose to not have a "battle" in Jabalya.
Israel has that option.
Especially if the "battle" involves dropping bombs from a great height onto poor, jobless people in 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Brief reminder folks - do not edit comments in substantive ways particularly in fast-moving threads. People who don't reload the thread will not see your changes and may respond to things no one else can read. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:52 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:52 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
i'm pretty hung up on the buildings, and i'm not sure why. maybe it's because without the buildings there's a lot less hope for the people who are alive but not living in their buildings anymore.
There's a common refrain that some people (not anyone here in particular) voice when a natural disaster wipes out impoverished areas and cries for immediate aid arise. Severe flooding in areas prone to flooding, severe drought in areas prone to drought, hurricanes, earthquakes, whatever.
"Why don't they evacuate? If it's so terrible there, and this happens over and over, why don't they just move somewhere better?"
Not everyone has family in a distant place ready to take them in. Not everyone has a nest egg set aside for a rainy day, because it got spent thirteen rainy days ago and they've been trying to catch up ever since. Not everyone has transportation, not everyone has a job to go to somewhere else, not everyone has the physical or legal ability to pack up their shit and go. Certainly, not everyone in those circumstances can find a buyer who could give them anything substantial.
Sometimes, a spot in a brutalist apartment building in a refugee city in an impoverished territory is all you have that you can point to and say "that belongs to me."
So when a flyer wafts down saying "Your government has attacked us, so we are going to attack you, get out now," and you know that if you leave, that one thing that is yours may well vanish without any compensation, what can you choose to do?
Catch-22, Joseph Heller's magnum opus, contains a passage that restates its title concept in its most primal form. Poor people are driven into the streets by force by soldiers and given "Catch-22" as the justification. When Yossarian demands to know what they meant by Catch-22, one of them replies:
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
That is what it must feel like to know that you did not participate in Hamas's attacks, that you did not kill or maim or kidnap anyone, but that you are very likely to pay the price for them at any given moment. All you can hope is that if they know that you and thousands like you are remaining there, that there is a decent chance that a flicker of humanity will keep them from simply erasing you.
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to, in an instant, realize that you were wrong about that.
posted by delfin at 3:12 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
There's a common refrain that some people (not anyone here in particular) voice when a natural disaster wipes out impoverished areas and cries for immediate aid arise. Severe flooding in areas prone to flooding, severe drought in areas prone to drought, hurricanes, earthquakes, whatever.
"Why don't they evacuate? If it's so terrible there, and this happens over and over, why don't they just move somewhere better?"
Not everyone has family in a distant place ready to take them in. Not everyone has a nest egg set aside for a rainy day, because it got spent thirteen rainy days ago and they've been trying to catch up ever since. Not everyone has transportation, not everyone has a job to go to somewhere else, not everyone has the physical or legal ability to pack up their shit and go. Certainly, not everyone in those circumstances can find a buyer who could give them anything substantial.
Sometimes, a spot in a brutalist apartment building in a refugee city in an impoverished territory is all you have that you can point to and say "that belongs to me."
So when a flyer wafts down saying "Your government has attacked us, so we are going to attack you, get out now," and you know that if you leave, that one thing that is yours may well vanish without any compensation, what can you choose to do?
Catch-22, Joseph Heller's magnum opus, contains a passage that restates its title concept in its most primal form. Poor people are driven into the streets by force by soldiers and given "Catch-22" as the justification. When Yossarian demands to know what they meant by Catch-22, one of them replies:
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
That is what it must feel like to know that you did not participate in Hamas's attacks, that you did not kill or maim or kidnap anyone, but that you are very likely to pay the price for them at any given moment. All you can hope is that if they know that you and thousands like you are remaining there, that there is a decent chance that a flicker of humanity will keep them from simply erasing you.
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to, in an instant, realize that you were wrong about that.
posted by delfin at 3:12 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article: The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False.
posted by ssg at 3:19 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article: The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False.
posted by ssg at 3:19 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article
That right there is some galaxy-brain thinking along the lines of "Arabs are Semitic, therefore Palestinians are Semites and Israel is antisemitic, checkmate, Zionists".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That right there is some galaxy-brain thinking along the lines of "Arabs are Semitic, therefore Palestinians are Semites and Israel is antisemitic, checkmate, Zionists".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse.
Palestinians in Gaza aren't hamsters. Just because its possible in Gaza to have something approaching "comfort" and maybe even pleasure doesn't offset the facts of their precarious existence and the grind of a lifetime of displacement and oppression. Do you believe that absent Hamas, they'd be happy with their situation?
Don't just take my word for this.
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
posted by Artful Codger at 3:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Palestinians in Gaza aren't hamsters. Just because its possible in Gaza to have something approaching "comfort" and maybe even pleasure doesn't offset the facts of their precarious existence and the grind of a lifetime of displacement and oppression. Do you believe that absent Hamas, they'd be happy with their situation?
Don't just take my word for this.
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
posted by Artful Codger at 3:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe don't make this thread about the individual users whose ideology frustrate you. However you view the unfolding events we're witnessing together, is that what you really think is important?
MeFi is already a rarified environment. Let's not suck the remaining oxygen out of the room indicting each other to absolutely no greater effect. Winning arguments here (if that's even possible) will not influence how history is written.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
MeFi is already a rarified environment. Let's not suck the remaining oxygen out of the room indicting each other to absolutely no greater effect. Winning arguments here (if that's even possible) will not influence how history is written.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
The people of Gaza have been repressed by Hamas on a far more direct and day to day basis than Israel or any outside group. Hamas spews out a constant stream of propaganda via mosques, schools and news that the root cause of their problems was the Zionists/Jews (Hamas uses the term interchangeably) and the existence of Israel. There are a lot of Palestinians who see through this nonsense, but they have no ability to change it and they leave or just keep their head down. There are also a lot of Israeli's who see through the nonsense of Netanyahu's machinations to extend the conflict and have left as well.
Before Hamas came to power and escalated the level violence against Israelis there was a lot more freedom of movement and goods between Egypt, Israel and Gaza. The blockade and sanctions were a response to Hamas' actions. They have been eased at times when Hamas restrains the violence and increased as Hamas ramps up the violence. I don't deny that Netanyahu's machinations have often served to increase the violence; but he isn't the only politician in Israel and there have been other PMs and opportunities. Hamas has been offered an end to the blockade and most sanctions in exchange for renouncing terrorism, committing to negotiations and accepting Israel's right to exist.
After every ceasefire terminating each round of violence in the last 17 years there has been hope that this time Hamas will choose a different path. Aid is provided, housing is rebuilt, restrictions are loosened, life improves for a while. Then it all goes to shit and violence returns bigger and worse than before. The unsettled nature of this conflict and the behavior of the Israeli far right means that there is always some provocation that Hamas can use to turn the crowds into the streets and justify their next attack. It is of course bullshit. The reason they attack is to maintain their power over Gaza. Same reason Netanyahu likes to stir things up in West Bank and Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 3:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Before Hamas came to power and escalated the level violence against Israelis there was a lot more freedom of movement and goods between Egypt, Israel and Gaza. The blockade and sanctions were a response to Hamas' actions. They have been eased at times when Hamas restrains the violence and increased as Hamas ramps up the violence. I don't deny that Netanyahu's machinations have often served to increase the violence; but he isn't the only politician in Israel and there have been other PMs and opportunities. Hamas has been offered an end to the blockade and most sanctions in exchange for renouncing terrorism, committing to negotiations and accepting Israel's right to exist.
After every ceasefire terminating each round of violence in the last 17 years there has been hope that this time Hamas will choose a different path. Aid is provided, housing is rebuilt, restrictions are loosened, life improves for a while. Then it all goes to shit and violence returns bigger and worse than before. The unsettled nature of this conflict and the behavior of the Israeli far right means that there is always some provocation that Hamas can use to turn the crowds into the streets and justify their next attack. It is of course bullshit. The reason they attack is to maintain their power over Gaza. Same reason Netanyahu likes to stir things up in West Bank and Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 3:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Middle East Eye has a piece about the initial Hamas attack and the hostage negotiations which reportedly fell through when Israel counterattacked on the ground. I can't say how reliable their sources are but it seems to be in line with the theory that Hamas didn't expect to be nearly as successful in the initial attack because they didn't plan for the IDF's gaza division to collapse so completely, and that's largely why there appears to be no plan for what to do now. (on either Hamas' or the Israeli leadership part).
Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
I'm sure the massacres were by Hamas fighters. I think they didn't expect to get more than a few hostages, and definitely not to overrun any of the IDF bases surrounding gaza. Most probably expected to be shot dead long before they could reach those communities. And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw. October 7th was a horrible day, every news update filled me with dread and disgust. It's been like that every day since.
posted by dis_integration at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure the massacres were by Hamas fighters. I think they didn't expect to get more than a few hostages, and definitely not to overrun any of the IDF bases surrounding gaza. Most probably expected to be shot dead long before they could reach those communities. And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw. October 7th was a horrible day, every news update filled me with dread and disgust. It's been like that every day since.
posted by dis_integration at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
An excellent letter in the LRB about the logic and history of hostages and prisoner exchanges between Palestine and Israel: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/eyal-weizman/exchange-rate
Folks wondering why international voices aren't calling for the release of hostages might note that "Bezalel Smotrich, Israel’s finance minister, has called for Hamas to be hit ‘mercilessly, without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives’. Gilad Erdan, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, has said that the hostages ‘would not prevent us from doing what we need to do’."
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Folks wondering why international voices aren't calling for the release of hostages might note that "Bezalel Smotrich, Israel’s finance minister, has called for Hamas to be hit ‘mercilessly, without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives’. Gilad Erdan, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, has said that the hostages ‘would not prevent us from doing what we need to do’."
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
If they are directly targeting civilians there is no justification. Israel will claim they are not targeting civilians and that they've encouraged civilians to move to safer areas of Gaza and delayed the ground offensive to allow time for people to relocate. Israel will claim that these structures were either adjacent to or contained valid military targets. You must decide if you accept that justification and if you accept that Israel is being honest that they are acting under that justification. I'm sure you can find evidence and poeple who will argue each of the three possibilities: (justified+honest, justified+dishonest, not justified).
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts and that they are probably being mostly honest in their reasoning for targeting these locations. I'm not eager to see it happen or happy about it. I've said many times in these threads that I think their stated objective is impossible and a plan that requires doing something impossible isn't a plan or a strategy.
50,000-80,000 Hamas soldiers + other militants with more than a decades worth of tunnels and bunkers underneath a city (metropolitan area, multiple cities technically) of 2 million people. Consider what it took to defeat 20,000 Japanese soldiers with an elaborate tunnel system on Iwo Jima (no civilians present). The last holdouts didn't surrender until 1949 -- iirc regular attacks on US soldiers outside of safe zones didn't stop until 1946. Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc, but this isn't an isolated pacific island either where resupply and rotating soldiers in and out was impossible. Rafah is next to Gaza and there are 80,000+ people living there. Lots of cover for tunnels and hideouts, even more in Sinai.
Sinai has a lot of wilderness and has been a legendary place for militants to take refuge from the Levant or Egypt for millennia. I assume that even if the Bible's stories flight from Egypt, the retreat of Elijah after the massacre of the priests of Baal, etc are just stories that the authors put the protagonists in Sinai because it had a reputation. Sinai, especially in the south around St Catherines Monastery is some really rough country.
posted by interogative mood at 4:56 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they are directly targeting civilians there is no justification. Israel will claim they are not targeting civilians and that they've encouraged civilians to move to safer areas of Gaza and delayed the ground offensive to allow time for people to relocate. Israel will claim that these structures were either adjacent to or contained valid military targets. You must decide if you accept that justification and if you accept that Israel is being honest that they are acting under that justification. I'm sure you can find evidence and poeple who will argue each of the three possibilities: (justified+honest, justified+dishonest, not justified).
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts and that they are probably being mostly honest in their reasoning for targeting these locations. I'm not eager to see it happen or happy about it. I've said many times in these threads that I think their stated objective is impossible and a plan that requires doing something impossible isn't a plan or a strategy.
50,000-80,000 Hamas soldiers + other militants with more than a decades worth of tunnels and bunkers underneath a city (metropolitan area, multiple cities technically) of 2 million people. Consider what it took to defeat 20,000 Japanese soldiers with an elaborate tunnel system on Iwo Jima (no civilians present). The last holdouts didn't surrender until 1949 -- iirc regular attacks on US soldiers outside of safe zones didn't stop until 1946. Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc, but this isn't an isolated pacific island either where resupply and rotating soldiers in and out was impossible. Rafah is next to Gaza and there are 80,000+ people living there. Lots of cover for tunnels and hideouts, even more in Sinai.
Sinai has a lot of wilderness and has been a legendary place for militants to take refuge from the Levant or Egypt for millennia. I assume that even if the Bible's stories flight from Egypt, the retreat of Elijah after the massacre of the priests of Baal, etc are just stories that the authors put the protagonists in Sinai because it had a reputation. Sinai, especially in the south around St Catherines Monastery is some really rough country.
posted by interogative mood at 4:56 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc,
Yeah, we're really doing great, huh. Just absolutely killing it.
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
The editorial linked above about who is obliged to risk their soldiers to spare civilians was worth a read.
And the Israel that used to be 'feared and respected' was the Israel was that patiently captured and tried Eichmann, or conducted the targeted 'Vengeance' operations after Munich.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, we're really doing great, huh. Just absolutely killing it.
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
The editorial linked above about who is obliged to risk their soldiers to spare civilians was worth a read.
And the Israel that used to be 'feared and respected' was the Israel was that patiently captured and tried Eichmann, or conducted the targeted 'Vengeance' operations after Munich.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've only made one comment so since this fresh new hell ignited and it's breaking my fucking heart and that one singular comment was:
[This is not good].
I appreciate everyone sharing curated news and links and breaking news, but I think it would be helpful and healthy for there to be a whole lot less less opinions, purity tests and analysis being shared from either side of this conflict and personal attacks.
I don't know how to express this safely or kindly without contradicting what I just said in that last paragraph, but there's a handful of people that are dominating these threads in posting volume and energy and it is absolutely fucking exhausting and I feel sorry for the mods that are dealing with it.
I've been resisting posting my opinions and analysis about these events since it started and, oh dear do I have opinions about it.
Nothing we can say or debate here is really going to change the outcome of what is happening short of voting for change years or decades too late to stop this trainwreck short of general strikes and cross-demographic protests for cease fires, and even then.
At the end of the day and thread all I can really say is I that I wish there was a lot less violence and sectarianism being justified in the name or service of any religion of any kind anywhere, and/or in the service of the whole concept of land ownership and birthright.
Speaking personally, neither of those motives for violence are spiritual or close to or in touch with any God, Goddess or any higher spiritual function or plane to me and I'm so sick and tired of any of this religious and/or ethnically motivated or justified violence and warfare.
There is so much energy and implied or implicit violence and nihilistic fatalism in these breaking news threads. Everyone had opinions and feelings about it.
Everyone wants to try to help and talk about why this is happening or why they think it is happening, still happening, and will happen in the future.
Not enough people are actually listening or doing anything that's functionally useful, kind or gentle and we're really just all just lashing out at each other because we feel so powerless to stop any of it.
For one of the few moments in my life I don't feel that have any effective suggestions, here.
I just want to ask people to really think about what they want and need to say and how they (and we) say it and try to be as kind and as peaceful as anyone can be... because it's absolutely exhausting and acrimonious and it's not helping.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
[This is not good].
I appreciate everyone sharing curated news and links and breaking news, but I think it would be helpful and healthy for there to be a whole lot less less opinions, purity tests and analysis being shared from either side of this conflict and personal attacks.
I don't know how to express this safely or kindly without contradicting what I just said in that last paragraph, but there's a handful of people that are dominating these threads in posting volume and energy and it is absolutely fucking exhausting and I feel sorry for the mods that are dealing with it.
I've been resisting posting my opinions and analysis about these events since it started and, oh dear do I have opinions about it.
Nothing we can say or debate here is really going to change the outcome of what is happening short of voting for change years or decades too late to stop this trainwreck short of general strikes and cross-demographic protests for cease fires, and even then.
At the end of the day and thread all I can really say is I that I wish there was a lot less violence and sectarianism being justified in the name or service of any religion of any kind anywhere, and/or in the service of the whole concept of land ownership and birthright.
Speaking personally, neither of those motives for violence are spiritual or close to or in touch with any God, Goddess or any higher spiritual function or plane to me and I'm so sick and tired of any of this religious and/or ethnically motivated or justified violence and warfare.
There is so much energy and implied or implicit violence and nihilistic fatalism in these breaking news threads. Everyone had opinions and feelings about it.
Everyone wants to try to help and talk about why this is happening or why they think it is happening, still happening, and will happen in the future.
Not enough people are actually listening or doing anything that's functionally useful, kind or gentle and we're really just all just lashing out at each other because we feel so powerless to stop any of it.
For one of the few moments in my life I don't feel that have any effective suggestions, here.
I just want to ask people to really think about what they want and need to say and how they (and we) say it and try to be as kind and as peaceful as anyone can be... because it's absolutely exhausting and acrimonious and it's not helping.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
I wish there was an antifavorite button to signify deep disapproval of a comment without derailing and making the user feel attacked.
posted by dusty potato at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If that's directed at me, dusty potato, I would accept it.
My inbox is open if you or anyone wants it. I've just been praying for peace and warmth and much less hurt, loss and death. I'm not here for an argument or conflict. It's why I've been trying to be quiet and just listen.
posted by loquacious at 6:48 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
My inbox is open if you or anyone wants it. I've just been praying for peace and warmth and much less hurt, loss and death. I'm not here for an argument or conflict. It's why I've been trying to be quiet and just listen.
posted by loquacious at 6:48 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know. I'm sure I'm part of the problem. But I'm glad we have this space, as acrimonious as it is, because every other place to talk about it is vastly worse, and having nowhere to talk about it is terrible too. My thoughts and opinions have shifted based on the contributions here. Even the people I've found myself disagreeing with the most have said things that have caused me to think more deeply about why I disagree with them, and sometimes the result of that has been realizing that I don't, actually.
This line in a comment upthread is going to be revolving in my head for a while:
And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw.
What an encapsulation. What a world this sentence contains. There's a specific referent here, and for a moment when I first read this sentence I itched to point out the ways in which this phrasing fails to meet the horror of what it describes. To brutally massacre hundreds and hundreds of civilians, from babies to the elderly, because these human beings didn't know what else to do, because there was no other more specific task in front of them. But that's the reality on both sides of this conflict. The hatred, the dehumanization, the thirst for blood. There are more than enough referents for this sentence wherever you look. It captures the situation perfectly.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
This line in a comment upthread is going to be revolving in my head for a while:
And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw.
What an encapsulation. What a world this sentence contains. There's a specific referent here, and for a moment when I first read this sentence I itched to point out the ways in which this phrasing fails to meet the horror of what it describes. To brutally massacre hundreds and hundreds of civilians, from babies to the elderly, because these human beings didn't know what else to do, because there was no other more specific task in front of them. But that's the reality on both sides of this conflict. The hatred, the dehumanization, the thirst for blood. There are more than enough referents for this sentence wherever you look. It captures the situation perfectly.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way.
I'm not the person who this comment was aimed at, but frankly I think more people should be doing this. You can let people be wrong on the internet and it doesn't detract from anything you yourself are saying. Personally I've been trying to do this much more -- express my opinion, but avoid getting into direct back and forths. I fail at that all the time, but it seems like a valuable goal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not the person who this comment was aimed at, but frankly I think more people should be doing this. You can let people be wrong on the internet and it doesn't detract from anything you yourself are saying. Personally I've been trying to do this much more -- express my opinion, but avoid getting into direct back and forths. I fail at that all the time, but it seems like a valuable goal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts
The back-and-forth arguments about proportionality seems like a Utilitarian vs Kantian (?) morality argument. Just an observation I wanted to make.
Trolley problem: a train is heading down the track and will kill 5 people, is it moral to flip the switch to divert it to a different track so it kills 1 different person instead?
Utilitarians argue that the outcomes matter: 1 death is preferable to 5 deaths, so it would be moral to flip the switch.
Someone else might argue that the act matters more - deliberately targeting and killing an innocent person is wrong, even if you believe the benefits outweigh the harms, so it would be immoral to flip the switch.
So it's basically, do you put more weight on the act, or the outcome?
How is our society built? Western societies have mostly rejected pure utiliarian ethics. Otherwise, it would be moral to execute a healthy person in order to harvest their organs to save 5 people's lives. Yet at the same time many of our policies such as using a progressive tax system to redistribute wealth is utilitarian in nature, so it would seem that we have settled on a mixture.
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters. A "proportional" response by this logic would be committing those same acts back to the people of Gaza, so in their eyes any response they have made so far is "less than proportional".
Hardline detractors of Israel will say, based on a utilitarian view, the number of dead in Gaza is numerically higher than the number of dead in Israel, so this proves that Israel is morally wrong - the numbers matter. A "proportional" response by this logic would be that Israel is free to pursue a military action to defeat Hamas as long as the total deaths don't exceed the 1,400 they suffered, and since the 8,000 deaths on the Gazan side are higher, Israel's response has been "wildly disproportionate".
I think there is a dynamic in online spaces, when confronted with a hardline view, to then take the opposite hardline view to "counter" it for balance, when in reality most people would agree that their own personal views are more nuanced.
To go back to the "norms / rules" established for these kinds of conflicts - the US provides a much higher volume of arms to Saudi Arabia than Israel - $110 billion during the Obama administation (NPR fact check) and the Saudis have been participating in a much more brutal Iran-Saudi proxy conflict - the civil war in Yemen (Wiki), which has resulted in around 377,00 deaths, 80,000 of them children, many of them dead from US weapons.
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations (I'm picking Statistica but most sources seem to be very similar).
posted by xdvesper at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The back-and-forth arguments about proportionality seems like a Utilitarian vs Kantian (?) morality argument. Just an observation I wanted to make.
Trolley problem: a train is heading down the track and will kill 5 people, is it moral to flip the switch to divert it to a different track so it kills 1 different person instead?
Utilitarians argue that the outcomes matter: 1 death is preferable to 5 deaths, so it would be moral to flip the switch.
Someone else might argue that the act matters more - deliberately targeting and killing an innocent person is wrong, even if you believe the benefits outweigh the harms, so it would be immoral to flip the switch.
So it's basically, do you put more weight on the act, or the outcome?
How is our society built? Western societies have mostly rejected pure utiliarian ethics. Otherwise, it would be moral to execute a healthy person in order to harvest their organs to save 5 people's lives. Yet at the same time many of our policies such as using a progressive tax system to redistribute wealth is utilitarian in nature, so it would seem that we have settled on a mixture.
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters. A "proportional" response by this logic would be committing those same acts back to the people of Gaza, so in their eyes any response they have made so far is "less than proportional".
Hardline detractors of Israel will say, based on a utilitarian view, the number of dead in Gaza is numerically higher than the number of dead in Israel, so this proves that Israel is morally wrong - the numbers matter. A "proportional" response by this logic would be that Israel is free to pursue a military action to defeat Hamas as long as the total deaths don't exceed the 1,400 they suffered, and since the 8,000 deaths on the Gazan side are higher, Israel's response has been "wildly disproportionate".
I think there is a dynamic in online spaces, when confronted with a hardline view, to then take the opposite hardline view to "counter" it for balance, when in reality most people would agree that their own personal views are more nuanced.
To go back to the "norms / rules" established for these kinds of conflicts - the US provides a much higher volume of arms to Saudi Arabia than Israel - $110 billion during the Obama administation (NPR fact check) and the Saudis have been participating in a much more brutal Iran-Saudi proxy conflict - the civil war in Yemen (Wiki), which has resulted in around 377,00 deaths, 80,000 of them children, many of them dead from US weapons.
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations (I'm picking Statistica but most sources seem to be very similar).
posted by xdvesper at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
ISW update, 11-1.
'Israeli forces arrested Fatah Secretary General in Jenin Ata Abu Ramila in an overnight raid on November'1'
''The Lions’ Den—a West Bank-based Palestinian militia—released a statement on October 31 calling for further anti-Israel militancy in the West Bank.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian met Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Foreign Affairs Minister Hakan Fidan in Ankara on November 1'
'Iranian-backed Iraqi militias are signaling that they may escalate against US forces in Iraq and Syria, as LH similarly messages against Israel.'
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei discussed the Israel-Hamas war with a group of students on November 1, marking the fifth time he has publicly discussed the war since October 7.'
'Jordan recalls ambassador to Israel to protest Gaza ‘catastrophe'
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023
'Israeli forces arrested Fatah Secretary General in Jenin Ata Abu Ramila in an overnight raid on November'1'
''The Lions’ Den—a West Bank-based Palestinian militia—released a statement on October 31 calling for further anti-Israel militancy in the West Bank.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian met Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Foreign Affairs Minister Hakan Fidan in Ankara on November 1'
'Iranian-backed Iraqi militias are signaling that they may escalate against US forces in Iraq and Syria, as LH similarly messages against Israel.'
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei discussed the Israel-Hamas war with a group of students on November 1, marking the fifth time he has publicly discussed the war since October 7.'
'Jordan recalls ambassador to Israel to protest Gaza ‘catastrophe'
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023
I think it's super inappropriate to come into a discussion about an unfolding genocide and vaguepost about how the temperature is turned up too high. I genuinely struggled with how to express that in a way that wouldn't start an argument, which was what you said you didn't want, and I'm sorry that it ended up coming off with a snide tone. I've basically said what I wanted to say now and don't really want to talk about it offline.
posted by dusty potato at 7:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
I think you are inferring the wrong emotion from my comment. I was merely pointing out a limitation in the comparison I was making to a significant battle in WW2 in terms of differences in weapons, sensor systems and geography.
posted by interogative mood at 7:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think you are inferring the wrong emotion from my comment. I was merely pointing out a limitation in the comparison I was making to a significant battle in WW2 in terms of differences in weapons, sensor systems and geography.
posted by interogative mood at 7:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Joe Biden has now said that there should be a humanitarian pause.
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support, but he's finally trying to put some distance between himself and the slaughter.
posted by zymil at 7:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support, but he's finally trying to put some distance between himself and the slaughter.
posted by zymil at 7:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
trolley problems are stupid and fake.
also deontology and utilitarianism aren’t in play so much as a kind of twisted version of virtue ethics, or so i would argue if i had any stomach for arguing. also there’s another moral framework in play and it’s an immoral moral framework and it’s a version of kissengerian realpolitik that’s metastasized into something even worse, and that’s the framework that all the leaders whose souls have gone a-blackberrying are using.
it’s kinda fucked up because these are very much not the terms i’m giving to thinking in and also kant was a nasty piece of work sometimes but i think maybe kantian deontology might be the least bad option available here, that or trying to find a way to a more virtuous virtue ethics.
also though and importantly i liked loquacious’s comment a great deal and would gladly go to the mat for it if going to the mat for it is welcomed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
also deontology and utilitarianism aren’t in play so much as a kind of twisted version of virtue ethics, or so i would argue if i had any stomach for arguing. also there’s another moral framework in play and it’s an immoral moral framework and it’s a version of kissengerian realpolitik that’s metastasized into something even worse, and that’s the framework that all the leaders whose souls have gone a-blackberrying are using.
it’s kinda fucked up because these are very much not the terms i’m giving to thinking in and also kant was a nasty piece of work sometimes but i think maybe kantian deontology might be the least bad option available here, that or trying to find a way to a more virtuous virtue ethics.
also though and importantly i liked loquacious’s comment a great deal and would gladly go to the mat for it if going to the mat for it is welcomed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Please don't go to the mat. There's no need to wrestle anything into submission.
Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone as a lurker who's following all this closely.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone as a lurker who's following all this closely.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support
I think its more concrete than that; the IDF just basically today cut off Gaza City from the rest of the strip with ground forces, so a pause now wouldn't be as much to Hamas' benefit in terms of allowing rearming and resupply. Combined with the hostage negotiations possibly moving forward, Biden probably thinks Israel might be more receptive to that advice than before today.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think its more concrete than that; the IDF just basically today cut off Gaza City from the rest of the strip with ground forces, so a pause now wouldn't be as much to Hamas' benefit in terms of allowing rearming and resupply. Combined with the hostage negotiations possibly moving forward, Biden probably thinks Israel might be more receptive to that advice than before today.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters.
I don't necessarily disagree with the bulk of the comment, but I've been wondering why no-one I've seen has mentioned Sabra and Shatila? I don't think that Hamas necessarily "escalated" this conflict, nor do I think that October 7 is necessarily the worst day for atrocities against civilians we've seen, it's just better documented.
For anyone who isn't aware, Christian militias, with IDF guns and vehicles, went into Palestinian refugee camps - ostensibly to root out terrorists, and killed, tortured and raped for over a day. The IDF had decided to let the militia in rather than enter the camps themselves, and they blocked the exits and lit the camps with flares while they listened to reports of the horrors. As many as 3500 may have died, it's hard to be sure. My understanding is the Israeli government itself found that they had known what was happening in the camps and decided not to interfere.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't necessarily disagree with the bulk of the comment, but I've been wondering why no-one I've seen has mentioned Sabra and Shatila? I don't think that Hamas necessarily "escalated" this conflict, nor do I think that October 7 is necessarily the worst day for atrocities against civilians we've seen, it's just better documented.
For anyone who isn't aware, Christian militias, with IDF guns and vehicles, went into Palestinian refugee camps - ostensibly to root out terrorists, and killed, tortured and raped for over a day. The IDF had decided to let the militia in rather than enter the camps themselves, and they blocked the exits and lit the camps with flares while they listened to reports of the horrors. As many as 3500 may have died, it's hard to be sure. My understanding is the Israeli government itself found that they had known what was happening in the camps and decided not to interfere.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Biden is trying to get Americans and most seriously wounded civilians out of Gaza. He is also trying to get at least 100 aid trucks into Gaza per day. Hard to do that with all the war going on. Isn’t it in the film Baron Von Munchausen where the diplomats have worked out specific times the war will be fought. It seems ridiculous in the film, but that happens IRL. As if “No fighting on Tuesday’s that’s when the bin men come”. Ok but then no fighting between 11am-11pm US eastern we purchased NFL Sunday ticket on Dish. ok but no overtime. No we want. to see the whole game. Ok you can have single overtime but we want 2 hours on Wednesday and Saturdays to do the shopping. Deal, deal. The rest of the time war.
posted by interogative mood at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Joe Biden has now said that there should be a humanitarian pause.
At least in how the NYTimes is initially reporting it, it was Biden's impromptu response to a heckler/protester at an event. My guess is it will become official US policy, but it seems preliminary still.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
At least in how the NYTimes is initially reporting it, it was Biden's impromptu response to a heckler/protester at an event. My guess is it will become official US policy, but it seems preliminary still.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I got to know Alon Burstein's YT channel where he's doing daily updates, and it's been concise and clarifying. I got to know him via this webinar 2 weeks ago. I'll just quote the video information for his credentials:
Alon Burstein is a visiting assistant professor and Israel Institute Fellow in the Department of Political Science at the University of California, Irvine. His research focuses on social mobilization and collective action in the Israel-Palestine region, as well as on violent collective action around the world
Sharing because the q&a section had relevant points for this thread on Hamas support from Palestinians (around min 42).
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Alon Burstein is a visiting assistant professor and Israel Institute Fellow in the Department of Political Science at the University of California, Irvine. His research focuses on social mobilization and collective action in the Israel-Palestine region, as well as on violent collective action around the world
Sharing because the q&a section had relevant points for this thread on Hamas support from Palestinians (around min 42).
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
For anybody feeling helpless, please consider donating to the Occupied Palestinian Territory Humanitarian Fund, money marked for UN agencies and NGOs. You might reasonably think that money is not a bottleneck here given the surge in humanitarian aid and the lack of access into Gaza, so what do they even need the money for anyway? Two factors at play here:
1. Only about 37% of the estimated funding required from the Flash Appeal has been met. A lot of the money goes into operations/logistics, and lots of food/supplies end up being wasted because they need to be kept ready and fresh to get sent in at a moment's notice. Breakdown of where the money goes.
2. Lots of development aid for Gaza/Palestine has been frozen by donor states since the October 7 Hamas attack, even as humanitarian aid has stayed the same or increased in some cases. I haven't crunched the numbers, but my impression is that we don't exactly have a windfall of aid money.
As mentioned above, some foreign nationals (e.g., international teams swapping out from Doctors Without Borders) were able to leave Gaza through some mutual non-opposition between Egypt, Hamas and Israel. I love Doctors Without Borders and donate to them regularly, but their presence in Gaza, like other international NGOs, is pretty limited compared to UNRWA, WFP, etc. due to issues of access.
On a personal note, I was corresponding with a UNRWA colleague in Gaza today and felt so bad for taking up some of her time that she could've spent doing something else. Everything about this feels so awful, and I have to resist the urge all the time to argue with strangers on the internet. Taking action has been the only thing keeping me out of despair. I liked the discourse upthread about how public perception seems to be shifting, and I found that interview with Rashid Kalidi to be particularly inspiring. Conflicts in Vietnam, Algeria, South Africa, etc. ended in part due to public pressure from the home countries of colonial powers. The things we do and say here really do matter, even if it doesn't seem like it.
1. Only about 37% of the estimated funding required from the Flash Appeal has been met. A lot of the money goes into operations/logistics, and lots of food/supplies end up being wasted because they need to be kept ready and fresh to get sent in at a moment's notice. Breakdown of where the money goes.
2. Lots of development aid for Gaza/Palestine has been frozen by donor states since the October 7 Hamas attack, even as humanitarian aid has stayed the same or increased in some cases. I haven't crunched the numbers, but my impression is that we don't exactly have a windfall of aid money.
As mentioned above, some foreign nationals (e.g., international teams swapping out from Doctors Without Borders) were able to leave Gaza through some mutual non-opposition between Egypt, Hamas and Israel. I love Doctors Without Borders and donate to them regularly, but their presence in Gaza, like other international NGOs, is pretty limited compared to UNRWA, WFP, etc. due to issues of access.
On a personal note, I was corresponding with a UNRWA colleague in Gaza today and felt so bad for taking up some of her time that she could've spent doing something else. Everything about this feels so awful, and I have to resist the urge all the time to argue with strangers on the internet. Taking action has been the only thing keeping me out of despair. I liked the discourse upthread about how public perception seems to be shifting, and I found that interview with Rashid Kalidi to be particularly inspiring. Conflicts in Vietnam, Algeria, South Africa, etc. ended in part due to public pressure from the home countries of colonial powers. The things we do and say here really do matter, even if it doesn't seem like it.
If you believe this theoretical construct — the colony and the metropole — then what activists do here in the metropole counts. You have to win people over. You can’t just show that you are the most pure or the most revolutionary or can say the most extreme things and demonstrate your revolutionary credentials. You have to be doing something toward a clear political end.posted by bongerino at 10:15 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations
I don't think that's correct. According to the first chart in this article from U.S. News, Israel received between $3.1 billion and $3.7 billion in U.S. aid *every year* between 2013 and 2022. That's combined military and economic assistance, but according to this page, "Since 2000, over 86% of annual American aid to Israel has funded military efforts." It links this February 2022 Congressional Research Service report (pdf), which states, "Almost all current U.S. aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance."
Using those sources, somewhere around $30-35 billion is more accurate for the last 10 years than your $7 billion. I'm not sure of the specific relevance of the larger point you were trying to make (it's late), but I'm fairly sure your numbers are off. (The Statistica link you cited is behind a paywall for me atm.)
posted by mediareport at 10:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't think that's correct. According to the first chart in this article from U.S. News, Israel received between $3.1 billion and $3.7 billion in U.S. aid *every year* between 2013 and 2022. That's combined military and economic assistance, but according to this page, "Since 2000, over 86% of annual American aid to Israel has funded military efforts." It links this February 2022 Congressional Research Service report (pdf), which states, "Almost all current U.S. aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance."
Using those sources, somewhere around $30-35 billion is more accurate for the last 10 years than your $7 billion. I'm not sure of the specific relevance of the larger point you were trying to make (it's late), but I'm fairly sure your numbers are off. (The Statistica link you cited is behind a paywall for me atm.)
posted by mediareport at 10:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thank you bongerino.
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations
This refers to direct imports from the USA of munitions, fighter planes, etc. and doesn't account for the billions in funding for weapons and systems developed and built in Israel or bought from elsewhere than the USA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This refers to direct imports from the USA of munitions, fighter planes, etc. and doesn't account for the billions in funding for weapons and systems developed and built in Israel or bought from elsewhere than the USA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yesterday (my time; 1 Nov), the Palestine Festival of Literature in New York City organized a public panel (But We Must Speak: On Palestine and the Mandates of Conscience), which had Prof. Rashid Khalidi in conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates, moderated by Michelle Alexander. I followed along because someone shared something Coates said, and he was responding to the question of Black American solidarity. He had earlier opened with talking about his visit to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, which really informed his entire presentation imo. Anyway:
I think it's really important to acknowledge something and that is that I know I'm a relative latecomer to this, it's not something that I had a real knowledge of. I had an intuition for it, I had an awareness of the tradition but it really was not until when I went there when I had a tactile feeling for it. One of the things I will probably be making amends for – until they day they put me in the ground if I'm honest – is in one of my most celebrated works of journalism, when I had to demonstrate tangibly how a reparations program could be done I look to Israel. I think about that, and one of my golden rules about writing is that you only write after you've reported, you only write after—and I wrote without going. While there is a long tradition of solidarity, for me personally, there is a thing of making amends. And it is terribly, ferociously important to me.
And in his closing remarks, talking about MLK Jr’s ethos of non-violence, and how he never really got what it means until his visit to Israel and the occupied territories: King would talk about the corrupting influence of violence, what it did to the soul, and I have to say, and this is really really important, as much as I saw my world through the eyes of the Palestinians, I saw what I can only describe as an alternative history through the eyes of Israeli Jews. I understood how pain, oppression, genocide, how you can take the wrong lesson from it. And how you can take the lesson that the real problem is that I did not have power, that I did not have the guns. Like, it was sad.
This was interesting and I'm apparently not the first to notice, it's not like Western establishment didn't try the same approach in resolving the 'issue' of free black people, something that was brought up in response to his book in fact. Anyway, the whole video isn't just on the panel, if you can spare some time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:20 AM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think it's really important to acknowledge something and that is that I know I'm a relative latecomer to this, it's not something that I had a real knowledge of. I had an intuition for it, I had an awareness of the tradition but it really was not until when I went there when I had a tactile feeling for it. One of the things I will probably be making amends for – until they day they put me in the ground if I'm honest – is in one of my most celebrated works of journalism, when I had to demonstrate tangibly how a reparations program could be done I look to Israel. I think about that, and one of my golden rules about writing is that you only write after you've reported, you only write after—and I wrote without going. While there is a long tradition of solidarity, for me personally, there is a thing of making amends. And it is terribly, ferociously important to me.
And in his closing remarks, talking about MLK Jr’s ethos of non-violence, and how he never really got what it means until his visit to Israel and the occupied territories: King would talk about the corrupting influence of violence, what it did to the soul, and I have to say, and this is really really important, as much as I saw my world through the eyes of the Palestinians, I saw what I can only describe as an alternative history through the eyes of Israeli Jews. I understood how pain, oppression, genocide, how you can take the wrong lesson from it. And how you can take the lesson that the real problem is that I did not have power, that I did not have the guns. Like, it was sad.
This was interesting and I'm apparently not the first to notice, it's not like Western establishment didn't try the same approach in resolving the 'issue' of free black people, something that was brought up in response to his book in fact. Anyway, the whole video isn't just on the panel, if you can spare some time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:20 AM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thank you, cendawanita.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I cannot get this to link properly. From US Senator Bernie Sanders in The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
“An immediate humanitarian response is vitally important, but it is equally important for Israel to have a political strategy. It cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution. Such a strategy must include, as minimum first steps: a clear promise that Palestinians displaced in the fighting will have the absolute right to safely return to their homes; a commitment to broader peace talks to advance a two-state solution in the wake of this war; an abandonment of Israeli efforts to carve up and annex the West Bank; and a commitment to work with the international community to build genuine Palestinian governing capacity.
“The United States, which provides $3.8bn a year in military aid to Israel, should make it clear that these are the conditions of our solidarity. Just as we want Israel to be a vibrant democracy, safe from terrorist attacks, we also want justice and dignity for the Palestinian people. That’s not going to happen with Hamas running the Gaza Strip. It is also not going to happen with continued Israeli domination of Palestinian life.”
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
“An immediate humanitarian response is vitally important, but it is equally important for Israel to have a political strategy. It cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution. Such a strategy must include, as minimum first steps: a clear promise that Palestinians displaced in the fighting will have the absolute right to safely return to their homes; a commitment to broader peace talks to advance a two-state solution in the wake of this war; an abandonment of Israeli efforts to carve up and annex the West Bank; and a commitment to work with the international community to build genuine Palestinian governing capacity.
“The United States, which provides $3.8bn a year in military aid to Israel, should make it clear that these are the conditions of our solidarity. Just as we want Israel to be a vibrant democracy, safe from terrorist attacks, we also want justice and dignity for the Palestinian people. That’s not going to happen with Hamas running the Gaza Strip. It is also not going to happen with continued Israeli domination of Palestinian life.”
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Audreynachrome - yes, Israel's actions in Lebanon is a whole other thread in itself. The Sabra and Shatila massacre (Wiki) was just a small part of the larger Lebanese Civil War (Wiki). It's going to be a mass of alphabet soup but the context and parallels it provides is helpful, I think.
On one side of the civil war was the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Lebanese National Movement (LNM) - primarily advancing the Arab and Palestinian cause - recently growing in strength by recruiting from the influx of 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.
On the other side was the Lebanese Forces (LF) - the Christian government, formerly in a majority position but presently a minority with the influx of Palestinian Muslims and other demographic shifts.
Israel had intervened in the war in response to attacks from the PLO, with the blessing and assistance of the Multinational Force in Lebanon (MNF) - a peacekeeping force on the ground consisting of US, UK, French and Italian soldiers.
At this point in the war Israel and LF had almost achieved their main objective. A ceasefire had been signed, which allowed the safe passage of surrendering PLO fighters out of Lebanon under the supervision of the MNF.
However, at the last moment - their plans hit a snag. PLO fighters in West Beirut had not exited yet and were believed to be still hiding among the refugee camps there. As the bulk of the PLO fighters had left, the MNF left the country. Bachir Gemayel, president of Lebanon, reevaluated his position, and rejected signing a peace treaty with Israel and also did not order his troops to clear out the PLO from West Beirut.
This left the IDF in a difficult position as they were not allowed to clear the PLO out themselves, and besides, they did not want to unnecessarily suffer the inevitable casualties while doing so.
Days later on 14 Sep, Gemayel was assassinated in a massive explosion which also killed 26 politicians in his headquarters. The assassination was carried out by the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP) - an ally of the LNM.
In the chaos that ensued, it is alleged that the IDF took full advantage of the LF's desire for revenge and blood against the Palestinians for the assassination of their President and virtual decapitation of their government. The IDF moved into position around West Beirut and allowed the LF to enter the refugee camps and conduct their massacre. Between 460-3,500 Palestinians were estimated to be killed.
The United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Ariel Sharon was forced to resign as Defense Minister as it was deemed his responsibility and thus his failure to prevent those atrocities. It did not prove an impediment to him being elected Prime Minister nearly 20 years later.
---
In the case of Jordan and Lebanon, Israel was able to work together with them to expel the militant PLO and remove the threat. The PLO were consigned to a backwater (Tunisia) and were falling into irrelevance and then later signed the Oslo Accords. I think there is hope that they might do the same with Hamas by working with third party.
I brought up the Briggs Plan (self post) before in a different context, but since some have rhetorically asked for a solution, I might as well throw it out there. And when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail (having multiple generations of family live through this and some semblance of a civil society emerge at the end of it)... so fine, this is probably a shit idea, illegal, unethical, unlikely to work, but like everyone else, I honestly don't see what would work.
posted by xdvesper at 4:02 AM on November 2, 2023
On one side of the civil war was the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Lebanese National Movement (LNM) - primarily advancing the Arab and Palestinian cause - recently growing in strength by recruiting from the influx of 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.
On the other side was the Lebanese Forces (LF) - the Christian government, formerly in a majority position but presently a minority with the influx of Palestinian Muslims and other demographic shifts.
Israel had intervened in the war in response to attacks from the PLO, with the blessing and assistance of the Multinational Force in Lebanon (MNF) - a peacekeeping force on the ground consisting of US, UK, French and Italian soldiers.
At this point in the war Israel and LF had almost achieved their main objective. A ceasefire had been signed, which allowed the safe passage of surrendering PLO fighters out of Lebanon under the supervision of the MNF.
However, at the last moment - their plans hit a snag. PLO fighters in West Beirut had not exited yet and were believed to be still hiding among the refugee camps there. As the bulk of the PLO fighters had left, the MNF left the country. Bachir Gemayel, president of Lebanon, reevaluated his position, and rejected signing a peace treaty with Israel and also did not order his troops to clear out the PLO from West Beirut.
This left the IDF in a difficult position as they were not allowed to clear the PLO out themselves, and besides, they did not want to unnecessarily suffer the inevitable casualties while doing so.
Days later on 14 Sep, Gemayel was assassinated in a massive explosion which also killed 26 politicians in his headquarters. The assassination was carried out by the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP) - an ally of the LNM.
In the chaos that ensued, it is alleged that the IDF took full advantage of the LF's desire for revenge and blood against the Palestinians for the assassination of their President and virtual decapitation of their government. The IDF moved into position around West Beirut and allowed the LF to enter the refugee camps and conduct their massacre. Between 460-3,500 Palestinians were estimated to be killed.
The United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Ariel Sharon was forced to resign as Defense Minister as it was deemed his responsibility and thus his failure to prevent those atrocities. It did not prove an impediment to him being elected Prime Minister nearly 20 years later.
---
In the case of Jordan and Lebanon, Israel was able to work together with them to expel the militant PLO and remove the threat. The PLO were consigned to a backwater (Tunisia) and were falling into irrelevance and then later signed the Oslo Accords. I think there is hope that they might do the same with Hamas by working with third party.
I brought up the Briggs Plan (self post) before in a different context, but since some have rhetorically asked for a solution, I might as well throw it out there. And when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail (having multiple generations of family live through this and some semblance of a civil society emerge at the end of it)... so fine, this is probably a shit idea, illegal, unethical, unlikely to work, but like everyone else, I honestly don't see what would work.
posted by xdvesper at 4:02 AM on November 2, 2023
Well, hopefully we all have it safely established now that the IDF is not beyond condoning and allowing acts of genocide, and that mass brutalisation of civilians, hundreds if not thousands in a day, up close and personal, is not new to this conflict.
The discussions around whether missile assassination is more or less spiritually harmful seem a distraction, if an interesting one, both sides have seen mass killings at the end of a gun, women hurt and children stuck by bayonet.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:18 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The discussions around whether missile assassination is more or less spiritually harmful seem a distraction, if an interesting one, both sides have seen mass killings at the end of a gun, women hurt and children stuck by bayonet.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:18 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
A bunch of Latin American governments have responded strongly to the invasion:
South American countries recall ambassadors and cut ties with Israel over war with Hamas
Bolivia has completely cut ties, Columbia and Chile have withdrawn ambassadors, and the leaders of Brazil and Argentina have been very critical. Lula in Brazil and Petro in Columbia have both used the word "genocide".
Am I correct to guess that these are all from left-wing political parties that were on the receiving end of American violence via the School of the Americas and similar anti-communist dirty war programs back in the day?
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
South American countries recall ambassadors and cut ties with Israel over war with Hamas
Bolivia has completely cut ties, Columbia and Chile have withdrawn ambassadors, and the leaders of Brazil and Argentina have been very critical. Lula in Brazil and Petro in Columbia have both used the word "genocide".
Am I correct to guess that these are all from left-wing political parties that were on the receiving end of American violence via the School of the Americas and similar anti-communist dirty war programs back in the day?
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Bernie Sanders in The Guardian
Unfortunately, Bernie still refuses to call for a ceasefire. Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently -- which unfortunately implies there is going to be a (humanitarian?) resumption of hostilities at some point. This op-ed is basically a call for regime change in Gaza, little different from the policy that the US and Israel are actually pursing. Bernie's strength was never foreign policy, but he has really lost whatever moral leadership of the US progressive milieu that he once possessed. It's really a shame to see that he can't take a stronger position on the current conflict. A call for a ceasefire really has to be the sine qua non of any sensible stance.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Unfortunately, Bernie still refuses to call for a ceasefire. Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently -- which unfortunately implies there is going to be a (humanitarian?) resumption of hostilities at some point. This op-ed is basically a call for regime change in Gaza, little different from the policy that the US and Israel are actually pursing. Bernie's strength was never foreign policy, but he has really lost whatever moral leadership of the US progressive milieu that he once possessed. It's really a shame to see that he can't take a stronger position on the current conflict. A call for a ceasefire really has to be the sine qua non of any sensible stance.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you need a ~1 hour summary of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict up to the current crisis, there is an interview with Norman Finkelstein (conducted by Mikhaila Peterson, of all people) posted on YouTube a couple weeks ago that is really excellent.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) on communication:
Israel's social media guide for the war on #Gaza -- original page here: ISRAEL UNDER FIRE:
3) on drones
video: The hospital are out of room so children are being treated on the floor
posted by kmt at 6:12 AM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel's social media guide for the war on #Gaza -- original page here: ISRAEL UNDER FIRE:
DO NOT explain Israel’s policy2) on genocidal intent:
The issue here is not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a whole. It is very difficult for us to win there. October 7 is about war crimes committed by Hamas, an organization that people abroad for some reason do not perceive as terrorists, no matter how much we try to say that they are. Now there is proof. It’s our 9/11, and that’s a relatable analogy for most Westerners.
DO NOT respond to anti-Israelis
who seek to draw the discourse into a discussion about the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a whole Instead, focus on the hostages, the elderly and children, the pain and suffering endured here.
Israel's Public Diplomacy Minister:-- the original tweet was since removed, but screenshots can be found + here's a writeup: Israeli MP Says It Clearly for World to Hear: 'Erase All of Gaza From the Face of the Earth'
"Erase all of Gaza from the face of the earth. That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence & try to enter Egyptian territory or they will die & their death will be evil.
Gaza should be erased!"
3) on drones
Hamas started publishing videos of successfully targeting Israeli troops with munitions dropped from drones. Israeli soldiers were all bunched together in the open, no anti-drone netting or other protection — Ukrainian and Russian troops have learned the hard way not to do this.4) children
video: The hospital are out of room so children are being treated on the floor
posted by kmt at 6:12 AM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Neo-Nazis and the Far-Right Are Trying to Hijack Pro-Palestine Protests
Neo-Nazis are showing up at protests in an attempt to push anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and tropes into the mainstream.
In Germany
Back in July the Neo-Nazi Party Professed Solidarity With the Palestinian Cause Amid 75th Anniversary Of The 'Nakba'
posted by adamvasco at 6:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Neo-Nazis are showing up at protests in an attempt to push anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and tropes into the mainstream.
In Germany
Back in July the Neo-Nazi Party Professed Solidarity With the Palestinian Cause Amid 75th Anniversary Of The 'Nakba'
posted by adamvasco at 6:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Further to adamvasco's link: Paris subway passengers chant 'f*** the Jews, we are Nazis'
This doesn't feel so much like people going mask off as people deciding to feed their masks into a shredder because they don't think they need them any more. Pretty disturbing.
posted by fight or flight at 6:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This doesn't feel so much like people going mask off as people deciding to feed their masks into a shredder because they don't think they need them any more. Pretty disturbing.
posted by fight or flight at 6:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jewish-space-laser-Nazi-lady's attempt to silence Palestinian-American fails in Congress
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Just to put the neo-Nazi stuff into greater context: There are a number of extremist right-wing neo-Nazis in the US government with whom the extremist right-wing Israeli government is friendly with.)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
It seems that there are two separate conversations going on that are mostly going past one another.
Some people want to discuss the question of whether or not Israel's actions follow the laws of war (for whatever value of "laws of war" that person has in mind), whether or not the actions Israel is taking are in general accordance with the actions the Allies took in Dresden or Tokyo, and issues of ratios of civilians killed vs military objectives achieved or sought.
The other group seems to be more interested in the question of whether or not what Israel is doing is MORAL and is largely disinterested in the minutae of various treaties and historic events.
I'd note that as a general rule most people would agree that the US and other Allied powers during WWII had a number of laws that today are considered immoral. The US, among other things, had formal segregation, virtually no rights for women at all, and a draconian set of anti-LGBT laws in the 1940's. The argument that the various laws and agreements regarding war that the US operated under during that time should be used as the standard for behavior in war today is, therefore, not very pursuasive to me and I suspect not pursuasive to a great many other people.
posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Some people want to discuss the question of whether or not Israel's actions follow the laws of war (for whatever value of "laws of war" that person has in mind), whether or not the actions Israel is taking are in general accordance with the actions the Allies took in Dresden or Tokyo, and issues of ratios of civilians killed vs military objectives achieved or sought.
The other group seems to be more interested in the question of whether or not what Israel is doing is MORAL and is largely disinterested in the minutae of various treaties and historic events.
I'd note that as a general rule most people would agree that the US and other Allied powers during WWII had a number of laws that today are considered immoral. The US, among other things, had formal segregation, virtually no rights for women at all, and a draconian set of anti-LGBT laws in the 1940's. The argument that the various laws and agreements regarding war that the US operated under during that time should be used as the standard for behavior in war today is, therefore, not very pursuasive to me and I suspect not pursuasive to a great many other people.
posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Also some have suggested it was just Biden speaking off the cuff, but actually the US proposed a resolution at the UN to call for a humanitarian pause last week.
posted by interogative mood at 7:16 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Also some have suggested it was just Biden speaking off the cuff, but actually the US proposed a resolution at the UN to call for a humanitarian pause last week.
posted by interogative mood at 7:16 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Well it is unfamiliar and/or incomprehensible enough to Gaza expert Sara Roy who in her open letter to President Biden says:
Well it is unfamiliar and/or incomprehensible enough to Gaza expert Sara Roy who in her open letter to President Biden says:
I don’t know if my friends and their families are among those murdered or injured by Israel. But I do know that this is not the first atrocity and it won’t be the last if the barbarity continues to be justified by you and others with the power to stop it. You call for a ‘humanitarian pause’, which I do not understand. What does a pause mean in the middle of such carnage? Does it mean feeding people so they can survive to be killed the next day? How is that humanitarian? How is that humane?posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:45 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Just to put the neo-Nazi stuff into greater context: There are a number of extremist right-wing neo-Nazis in the US government with whom the extremist right-wing Israeli government is friendly with.)
Neo-Nazi in this context is not a word meaning anyone with bad politics. Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with? How does that put people chanting "f*** the Jews" into context?
posted by cosmic owl at 7:47 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Neo-Nazi in this context is not a word meaning anyone with bad politics. Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with? How does that put people chanting "f*** the Jews" into context?
posted by cosmic owl at 7:47 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with?
No longer in the US government, but ex-Trump aide Sebastian Gorka, for one. (And Israel, especially under Netanyahu, is a far-right ethnonationalist state; finding political allies abroad who are also far-right ethnonationalists is not surprising?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
No longer in the US government, but ex-Trump aide Sebastian Gorka, for one. (And Israel, especially under Netanyahu, is a far-right ethnonationalist state; finding political allies abroad who are also far-right ethnonationalists is not surprising?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have assumed Bernie is using the language of "humanitarian pause" because he is trying to set up a concept in public which he can advocate for behind the scenes. I doubt he has a ton of influence on the Biden administration but that doesn't mean he's not trying? I have no evidence for this, I'll admit, but the peculiarity of the language and the fact that he's not just repeating an existing left slogan ("ceasefire!!") make it look like strategy more than lack of clarity or courage.
posted by kensington314 at 8:16 AM on November 2, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 8:16 AM on November 2, 2023
It's been known for some time that Saudi Arabia wants a U.S. Security Pact to protect them from Iran, and the U.S. was already sending envoys to negotiate with Saudi Arabia before Hamas attacked. The U.S. aims to leverage their protection to negotiate with the Saudis for peace with Israel and with Israel for the groundwork for a two-state solution with the Palestinians. The purpose of Hamas’s attack was to disrupt that process: This is Iran targeting Israel through terrorism, yes — and, again, the Palestinians are collateral damage. But Iran is also targeting the U.S., because of longstanding tension between the two countries, augmented by U.S. sanctions and a recent game of footsie Iran has been playing with Russia. Mostly, however, Shia Iran's interference is aimed at preventing Sunni Saudi, the Arab world's largest and richest Sunni nation, from having undue influence in a peaceful pan-Arab neighborhood. For Iran, both the Israelis and the Palestinians were getting in the way.
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
The point is both Israel and the Palestinians suffer from corrupt and abusive leadership. Both have extremist factions within their populations and both share the same rough neighborhood. It's possible that with U.S. help and post-Russian invasion global unity and interest in peace, Israel's response will be fruitfully shifted, but Israel does not have the advantages of size or local allies in the way many of its critics do, which is why Israel's response isn't just an existential issue for the Palestinians, it's also an existential issue for the Israelis.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:23 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
The last major Iran-backed conflict was in 2006 after a Hezbollah cross-border raid led to a handful of IDF deaths and kidnappings. Israel responded by attacking Hezbollah military targets, Lebanese civilian infrastructure, and launching a ground invasion of Southern Lebanon. They also imposed an air and naval blockade, and engaged in guerilla warfare. The conflict is believed to have killed between 1,191 and 1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis. It severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese and 300,000–500,000 Israelis. It ended when the UN Security Council passed a resolution, approved by both the Lebanese and Israeli governments, calling for "disarmament of Hezbollah, for withdrawal of the IDF from Lebanon, and for the deployment of the Lebanese Armed Forces and an enlarged United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the south."Iranian officials later said they never would have attacked had they known that Israel would go nuts. That was the point then — and it's the point now: It led to 20 years of peace. That's what survival looks like for a tiny country that has been repeatedly attacked by neighboring countries and terrorist organizations. Israel’s brutal approach is informed not just by a past punctuated by a history of expulsions, pograms and attempted extermination, but also by a present, in which anti-semitism has erupted in North and South America, Europe and is even reportedly rampant on Chinese social media in response to the war. This is despite the fact that Israel is the only Western-style democracy (albeit, like the U.S. teetering) in a region where medieval displays of power are commonplace. (See Arab Spring; see Jamal Khashoggi's beheading; see draconian women’s and gay rights.) And still people would question Israel’s desire to remain a majority Jewish state, much as most countries in the world are also identified by a majority religion.
The point is both Israel and the Palestinians suffer from corrupt and abusive leadership. Both have extremist factions within their populations and both share the same rough neighborhood. It's possible that with U.S. help and post-Russian invasion global unity and interest in peace, Israel's response will be fruitfully shifted, but Israel does not have the advantages of size or local allies in the way many of its critics do, which is why Israel's response isn't just an existential issue for the Palestinians, it's also an existential issue for the Israelis.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:23 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts,
If these are the norms, the norms are heinous. As far as the rules go, there's a bunch of them established by the UN, and I promise you that bombing the shit out of a city and killing thousands, mostly women and children, are not in line with the rules.
posted by dis_integration at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If these are the norms, the norms are heinous. As far as the rules go, there's a bunch of them established by the UN, and I promise you that bombing the shit out of a city and killing thousands, mostly women and children, are not in line with the rules.
posted by dis_integration at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yikes. This is why we keep circling back to the same thing - there will always be people who justify crimes against humanity in the name of protecting "western" states, or because "they only respect what they fear" or some other phrase that shows just how little regard they have for the actual lives of Palestinians (and Muslims in general).
posted by sagc at 8:31 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:31 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Describing Israel, a country that openly practices apartheid, as "only Western-style democracy in a region where medieval displays of power are commonplace" is either very funny or very sad, I'm not sure which.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:51 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:51 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
Gideon Levy, Haaretz: These Are the Children Extracted After the Bombardment of Gaza's Jabalya Refugee Camp (ungated)
Another terrorist was extracted from the wreckage. This time she’s clearly alive, her fair, curly hair is white with dust; she’s five or six, being carried by her father. She looks right and left, as though asking where help will come from.
A man in a tattered vest scribbles here and there, a white sheet folded like a shroud in his hands, covering an infant’s body, and he’s waving it in despair. It’s the body of his son, a newborn baby. This infant hadn’t yet had a chance to join Hamas’ military headquarters in the Jabalya refugee camp. He had only lived a few days – a butterfly’s eternity – and was killed.
Dozens of youngsters continued digging in the rubble with their bare hands in a desperate effort to extract still-living people or the bodies of neighbors, raising destroyed walls from the hand of a child sticking out of the ruins. Perhaps this child was a terrorist in Hamas' Nukhba force.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
[using the spoiler tag because he opens with graphic descriptions of dead children, described as terrorists, following the government]
A Hamas terrorist was taken out of the debris, carried in his father’s arms. His face is covered with dust, his body jerking like a sack, his stare blank. It’s not clear if he’s alive or dead. He is a toddler of three or four, and his desperate father rushed him to the Gaza Strip's Indonesian Hospital, which was already bursting with wounded and dead people.Another terrorist was extracted from the wreckage. This time she’s clearly alive, her fair, curly hair is white with dust; she’s five or six, being carried by her father. She looks right and left, as though asking where help will come from.
A man in a tattered vest scribbles here and there, a white sheet folded like a shroud in his hands, covering an infant’s body, and he’s waving it in despair. It’s the body of his son, a newborn baby. This infant hadn’t yet had a chance to join Hamas’ military headquarters in the Jabalya refugee camp. He had only lived a few days – a butterfly’s eternity – and was killed.
Dozens of youngsters continued digging in the rubble with their bare hands in a desperate effort to extract still-living people or the bodies of neighbors, raising destroyed walls from the hand of a child sticking out of the ruins. Perhaps this child was a terrorist in Hamas' Nukhba force.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear
This is nothing short of a defense of ethnic cleansing and mass murder. A blatant lie that I think the speaker doesn't believe.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is nothing short of a defense of ethnic cleansing and mass murder. A blatant lie that I think the speaker doesn't believe.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Relevant reporting about Hamas' October 7th attack. Hamas of course planned and strategized and trained, but the scale of the attack was also the result of what looks like a massive security failure:
"Now two sources tell Middle East Eye that Hamas didn’t plan to take no more than 20-30 hostages, and it didn’t expect that Israel’s Gaza division would collapse.
They argue that Hamas didn’t plan for this:
• The original attack plan, according to several sources, was to strike military targets and then make a quick withdrawal.
• Hamas wanted to inflict maximum embarrassment on Netanyahu and get something to bargain with for a mass prisoner release.
• While Hamas was ready for the war, it did not expect the attack to provoke anything more than limited retaliatory strikes on Gaza. “The strike was supposed to be tactical, not strategic,” one source said.
• Hamas sent in 1,500 fighters, expecting that most would be killed.
“Somewhere around 1,400 fighters came back,” said one source.
• The source said that Hamas force unexpectedly kept on advancing, attacking locations that were not on an original list of targets, and they ended up with a far larger number of hostages than they had planned for
• Hamas knew the addresses of senior IDF commanders. It knew the layout of military bases and the location of checkpoints.
• Furthermore, it knew the time of the shift change at the Gaza Division’s barracks at the end of the Yom Kippur holiday. It launched the attack one hour after the shift change. Many of the troops were caught in their beds.
• “The plan was to assault the Gaza Division and not the kibbutz, because the Qassam intention was to capture soldiers and officers to finish the file of prisoners,” said one source familiar with the planning of the operation.
“The number of civilian hostages was as a result of the sequence of battle when a lot of people crossed the border.”
• Hamas and affiliated fighters were free to cross between designated targets and for a couple of hours nobody was in control.
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Now two sources tell Middle East Eye that Hamas didn’t plan to take no more than 20-30 hostages, and it didn’t expect that Israel’s Gaza division would collapse.
They argue that Hamas didn’t plan for this:
• The original attack plan, according to several sources, was to strike military targets and then make a quick withdrawal.
• Hamas wanted to inflict maximum embarrassment on Netanyahu and get something to bargain with for a mass prisoner release.
• While Hamas was ready for the war, it did not expect the attack to provoke anything more than limited retaliatory strikes on Gaza. “The strike was supposed to be tactical, not strategic,” one source said.
• Hamas sent in 1,500 fighters, expecting that most would be killed.
“Somewhere around 1,400 fighters came back,” said one source.
• The source said that Hamas force unexpectedly kept on advancing, attacking locations that were not on an original list of targets, and they ended up with a far larger number of hostages than they had planned for
• Hamas knew the addresses of senior IDF commanders. It knew the layout of military bases and the location of checkpoints.
• Furthermore, it knew the time of the shift change at the Gaza Division’s barracks at the end of the Yom Kippur holiday. It launched the attack one hour after the shift change. Many of the troops were caught in their beds.
• “The plan was to assault the Gaza Division and not the kibbutz, because the Qassam intention was to capture soldiers and officers to finish the file of prisoners,” said one source familiar with the planning of the operation.
“The number of civilian hostages was as a result of the sequence of battle when a lot of people crossed the border.”
• Hamas and affiliated fighters were free to cross between designated targets and for a couple of hours nobody was in control.
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gaza authorities say 15 killed in Israeli strike on Bureij refugee camp (Al-Jazeera) Commentary:
Al-Bureij Camp is located south of the so-called evacuation line. There is no safe place in Gaza. Israeli claims that crossing south of the evacuation line will keep civilians safer are a blatant lie, and those who believe and spread these lies are complicit in genocide. Period.posted by kmt at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023
Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights in law as blacks in the US do unlike blacks under Apartheid. 21% of the Israeli population is Arab. The major difference between Apartheid and what exists in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is that Apartheid South Africa was not the occupation of a neighboring country. Apartheid had as its end a single country with equal rights for all. The end of this is going to be the two state solution. People there seem to want time apart to govern themselves.
There are some lessons from the ending of apartheid that could be useful. The first is that you need leaders on both sides who are genuinely committed to reaching the end goal — in South Africa the goal was a single country with equal rights, in this instance a two state solution. The second is a real commitment to nonviolent approaches to working towards the political goals — a key moment was getting the ANC to move away from terrorism and embrace a political dialogue and for the Apartheid government to realize that would not be able to use violence to impose their will forever. The third is something akin to the truth and reconciliation process to put the system that has sustained this conflict on trial; not necessarily the people.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a Mandela and a de Clerk available to get the deal done. Maybe Bargouti who’s been in Israeli prison for a long time could be the Mandela. Netanyahu seems more like the PW Botha.
Hamas won’t renounce violence.
posted by interogative mood at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are some lessons from the ending of apartheid that could be useful. The first is that you need leaders on both sides who are genuinely committed to reaching the end goal — in South Africa the goal was a single country with equal rights, in this instance a two state solution. The second is a real commitment to nonviolent approaches to working towards the political goals — a key moment was getting the ANC to move away from terrorism and embrace a political dialogue and for the Apartheid government to realize that would not be able to use violence to impose their will forever. The third is something akin to the truth and reconciliation process to put the system that has sustained this conflict on trial; not necessarily the people.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a Mandela and a de Clerk available to get the deal done. Maybe Bargouti who’s been in Israeli prison for a long time could be the Mandela. Netanyahu seems more like the PW Botha.
Hamas won’t renounce violence.
posted by interogative mood at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
> The major difference between Apartheid and what exists in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is that Apartheid South Africa was not the occupation of a neighboring country. Apartheid had as its end a single country with equal rights for all. The end of this is going to be the two state solution.
The far-right in power in Israel right now is pretty clear on the record that they are against a two-state solution and will do anything to stop it. Maybe a new government, free of the extreme right, would take that option seriously, but it will never be possible if the assault on Gaza continues. I'm not interested in debating the question of whether Israeli arabs in fact have equal rights within Israel, but Gaza and the West Bank are clearly analogous to the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa.
posted by dis_integration at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The far-right in power in Israel right now is pretty clear on the record that they are against a two-state solution and will do anything to stop it. Maybe a new government, free of the extreme right, would take that option seriously, but it will never be possible if the assault on Gaza continues. I'm not interested in debating the question of whether Israeli arabs in fact have equal rights within Israel, but Gaza and the West Bank are clearly analogous to the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa.
posted by dis_integration at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights in law as blacks in the US do unlike blacks under Apartheid
If you are at all familiar with the discussion of apartheid in the Israeli context, you'd know that "apartheid" doesn't refer to Arab citizens of Israel but to the five million Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation and control and have done since 1967, and who remain subject to things like being forcibly evicted in favour of settlers, etc. Talking about Israeli Arab citizens looks quite a lot like either a deliberate deflection or utterly missing the point.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
If you are at all familiar with the discussion of apartheid in the Israeli context, you'd know that "apartheid" doesn't refer to Arab citizens of Israel but to the five million Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation and control and have done since 1967, and who remain subject to things like being forcibly evicted in favour of settlers, etc. Talking about Israeli Arab citizens looks quite a lot like either a deliberate deflection or utterly missing the point.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
MisantropicPainforest, do you have a link for that reporting?
posted by kensington314 at 9:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 9:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
> In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
so returning to an earlier frame, where i proposed that there are two parallel arguments:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
so returning to an earlier frame, where i proposed that there are two parallel arguments:
- over whether isreal is doing that
- over whether it's sadly necessary that israel do that
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, MisantropicPainforest, the framing of the Oct. 7 attack as 'Sorry guys, we got a little carried away." is disgusting. "We had to rape women and kill old people and children because the Israelis just made it too easy!" What the actual fuck.
posted by gwint at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now two sources tell Middle East Eye
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources. They also reported that US Delta Force was going to flood the Hamas tunnels with nerve agent to "paralyze" everyone inside "for a period of time between six and 12 hours". That's not how nerve agents work. They're clearly willing to listen and repeat stuff from sources who are either lying or themselves misinformed.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources. They also reported that US Delta Force was going to flood the Hamas tunnels with nerve agent to "paralyze" everyone inside "for a period of time between six and 12 hours". That's not how nerve agents work. They're clearly willing to listen and repeat stuff from sources who are either lying or themselves misinformed.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think the idea that Hamas didn't anticipate their success is plausible, but the amount of slaughter, especially at the music festival, suggests to me that systematic slaughter was at the very least in some of the participants' minds ahead of time. You don't accidentally kill several hundred at an outdoor music festival.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:14 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:14 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Ha'aretz: As Their Anger Grows, Families of Gaza Hostages Vow Not to Give Israeli Gov't 'Endless Credit' (archive)
“The families are troubled by the fact that they have no feeling that serious negotiations are taking place regarding the release of the hostages..."
“The families want the [military campaign's] goal to be the return of the hostages and not the elimination of Hamas, and that the promises we were given wouldn't turn out to be empty,” said Nir Shai, father of Amit, a 16-year-old, abducted from his home in Kibbutz Be’eri. "If that's the army's goal and that's what force is being used to achieve, fine. But not for restoring the army's lost honor of October 7, not for toppling Gaza and not for taking revenge. These are worthy goals, but there'll be time to achieve them after the hostages are released."
[...] "Bringing back the hostages is the binding contract between the state and its citizens and the criteria for our national resilience as a society. Therefore, right now, bringing back the hostages is top priority, above any other mission."
posted by mediareport at 10:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
“The families are troubled by the fact that they have no feeling that serious negotiations are taking place regarding the release of the hostages..."
“The families want the [military campaign's] goal to be the return of the hostages and not the elimination of Hamas, and that the promises we were given wouldn't turn out to be empty,” said Nir Shai, father of Amit, a 16-year-old, abducted from his home in Kibbutz Be’eri. "If that's the army's goal and that's what force is being used to achieve, fine. But not for restoring the army's lost honor of October 7, not for toppling Gaza and not for taking revenge. These are worthy goals, but there'll be time to achieve them after the hostages are released."
[...] "Bringing back the hostages is the binding contract between the state and its citizens and the criteria for our national resilience as a society. Therefore, right now, bringing back the hostages is top priority, above any other mission."
posted by mediareport at 10:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
This is a weird one. At least 30 Thai workers were killed. They were abducted from fields at gunpoint. There are reportedly more than 50 taken hostage, not 15. I don't see how you kidnap 50 agricultural workers "by accident." Apparently these workers didn't have access to the sort of shelters and safe rooms that others did, so maybe that explains why so many were kidnapped.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a weird one. At least 30 Thai workers were killed. They were abducted from fields at gunpoint. There are reportedly more than 50 taken hostage, not 15. I don't see how you kidnap 50 agricultural workers "by accident." Apparently these workers didn't have access to the sort of shelters and safe rooms that others did, so maybe that explains why so many were kidnapped.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Haaretz: Israel's Army Plans to Recruit Settlers With No IDF Experience to Defend Ultra-orthodox West Bank Settlements. "The recruits are expected to undergo accelerated basic training for three weeks, after which they will be armed and stationed in the settlements. The program is open to civilians between the ages of 27 to 50, who have not served in the Israeli army"
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m very familiar with the use of apartheid as an analogy for the conflict. this is why I pointed out the limitations of that particular analogy and how is differs in both how apartheid was ended and how apartheid was practiced.
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries. Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders. There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
posted by interogative mood at 10:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries. Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders. There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
posted by interogative mood at 10:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think debates over whether the word apartheid is applicable are a distraction from the actual pain and suffering happening right now. But the reason people will argue to death over the word is that contained in it is the difference between a one-state or two-state solution. Apartheid implies a second-class citizenship status. Supporters of Israel will react strongly to that, because they reject any framework that grants Israeli citizenship to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. It's semantics, but it's a very loaded semantics, because underneath it are very different and significant conceptions over whether Palestinians should have some version of citizenship in what is currently Israel. Underneath that is the question of whether there should be an Israel at all. When people argue about whether the situation of Palestinians is or is not apartheid, there's very little empirical disagreement about the facts; it's entirely a normative disagreement about what the citizenship status of everyone in Israel/Palestine should be in what state or states each interlocutor thinks should exist there.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
The idea that this is primarily a struggle between two countries, and not particularly about civil rights, has to do an amazing amount of work to ignore how much Israel, as a state, controls the living conditions, travel, healthcare, job opportunities, educational opportunities, ability to own property, and many other things, both now and in the past. I'd say it's pretty much a facile understanding, and might go some way to explaining why your (interogative mood's) comments are getting so much pushback here - the idea that these are two polities, completely separate, and with equal standing regarding the other is simply not supported by reality.
posted by sagc at 11:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
If you're looking at a map of Israeli settlement of the West Bank over the last few decades and seeing communities "locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders", I just don't know what to say to that. We don't live in the same reality.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources.
I hadn't realized MEE was the same outlet that reported the nerve agent bunk. Yeah you are right they aren't particularly credible.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on November 2, 2023
I hadn't realized MEE was the same outlet that reported the nerve agent bunk. Yeah you are right they aren't particularly credible.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on November 2, 2023
over whether isreal is doing that
over whether it's sadly necessary that israel do that
i'm counting your comment as a staunch "yes" for both questions. please correct me if i'm wrong about your take. and like by saying this i'm not saying that your take is automatically wrong!"Doing that" is too coded for me to automatically agree because I don't understand what it is encompassing.
Israel's Treatment of the Palestinians
I think Netanyahu is a dangerous leader, and probably a fool on top of it. It’s crossed my mind, and I’m sure many other people’s, that a long war would serve his selfish interests.
He's been charged with multiple counts of corruption, and also spent six months staving off unbelievably persistent pro-democratic protests against judicial shenanigans that risk breaking Israeli democracy in two.
Netanyahu is in bed with the ultranationalist far right. The far right settler crowd — which I've read in the past is mostly American! — has NO right to "settle" in the West Bank, and their removal is absolutely the very first step in a two-state solution. Their presence is an international embarrassment, and I've read that the military was busy with settler issues, which is why when there was a crisis in southern Israel, no help came.
Netanyahu and some of his officials have used deplorable language to describe the Palestinians after the Hamas attack. Conditions in Gaza and the Palestinian Territory are also absolutely shocking. It should be sanitary, peaceful with decent or at least basic education and work opportunities — the beginnings of a country already. That they do not have these things may be partially an Israeli problem, but I've been told by Arab Americans that the diaspora gives millions to the Palestinians every year, and all or most of it goes to Hamas or the Palestinian Authority, not to the people for whom it is intended. Similarly, the EU is currently one of the Palestinians' most generous supporters, but that money's mostly not getting to the people who need it, either; if it were, they would have clean water.
- Do I think some form of Apartheid is going on? Yes.
- Do I think Israel should become a bicultural state? Absolutely not.
- Do I think Israel wants to eradicate the Palestinians? Some of the ultranationalists most certainly do. But as we know in the U.S., and as is evident in many other countries, many governments are nonrepresentative of the majority. (See Israeli protests above.)
- Do I think genocide is going on? No.
- Do I think Israel is a “colonial” state? I think this is dangerous language. I would simply say, I believe far-right settlers have illegally settled in the West Bank. The U.N. Security Council should impose strict sanctions against Netanyahu’s government to get them out.
Military Response
- Do I think Israel’s harsh military response is necessary? Yes, or some version of it, unfortunately, for reasons already stated.
U.S. Rhetoric
Over 50 percent of the entire Israeli Jewish population is of at least partial Sephardi/Mizrahi descent. So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture. The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:50 AM on November 2, 2023
Just representing the global south side of things on the whole colonialism can't be done by people of the same region and similar native claims, when I say: lol.
posted by cendawanita at 11:55 AM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:55 AM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think the idea that Hamas didn't anticipate their success is plausible, but the amount of slaughter, especially at the music festival, suggests to me that systematic slaughter was at the very least in some of the participants' minds ahead of time
I have to assume that part of strategy of Hamas in regards to the Oct 7 massacres was to provoke Israel into such a vicious retaliation against Palestine that it unites the region against them and costs them international support.
Unfortunately for everyone, that strategy seems to be working.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have to assume that part of strategy of Hamas in regards to the Oct 7 massacres was to provoke Israel into such a vicious retaliation against Palestine that it unites the region against them and costs them international support.
Unfortunately for everyone, that strategy seems to be working.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Americans bombed Japan twice in WW2 and felt so sorry about it, the rest of the world has to forget about the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or something.
posted by cendawanita at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries.
This is not a struggle between two countries. The Palestinians are an occupied, stateless people. This is why we talk about a "two-state solution"--because there is an unrecognized goal for a Palestinian state which has been affirmed over and over again by the UN as discussed throughout this thread. From the link:
Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders.
I'm not exactly sure entirely what this means, because of course much of the conflict is about various parties struggling to NOT recognize one another. For example the Israeli PM has stated explicitly that he does not want a Palestinian state and has supported Hamas to forestall the possibility of one, and on the other side of the coin there's no shortage of exegesis about various iterations of the Hamas charter and the question of recognizing Israel.
But, of course Israel was recognized by the UN in 1949 and is very much a country with autonomous borders. In addition, it occupies the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It has self-determined to kill many thousands of women and children who did not take part in the October 7 massacre, though we could argue how autonomously they are doing so, given the provenance of their weapons (my government, among others).
Okay, let's see, what more?
There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
Ah, yes! I don't know your situation, but I am guessing they are secondary in your view because you have not been killed or forcibly displaced from your home in the West Bank, or you are not a Palestinian journalist in the West Bank, or or or or
(But genuinely, I do mean that, I don't know your situation and so if you like, live in the West Bank and have a nuanced view of why there's not a primary civil rights concern there, I'm open to hearing about that!)
posted by kensington314 at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is not a struggle between two countries. The Palestinians are an occupied, stateless people. This is why we talk about a "two-state solution"--because there is an unrecognized goal for a Palestinian state which has been affirmed over and over again by the UN as discussed throughout this thread. From the link:
Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. (emphasis mine)Let's see, what else?
Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders.
I'm not exactly sure entirely what this means, because of course much of the conflict is about various parties struggling to NOT recognize one another. For example the Israeli PM has stated explicitly that he does not want a Palestinian state and has supported Hamas to forestall the possibility of one, and on the other side of the coin there's no shortage of exegesis about various iterations of the Hamas charter and the question of recognizing Israel.
But, of course Israel was recognized by the UN in 1949 and is very much a country with autonomous borders. In addition, it occupies the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It has self-determined to kill many thousands of women and children who did not take part in the October 7 massacre, though we could argue how autonomously they are doing so, given the provenance of their weapons (my government, among others).
Okay, let's see, what more?
There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
Ah, yes! I don't know your situation, but I am guessing they are secondary in your view because you have not been killed or forcibly displaced from your home in the West Bank, or you are not a Palestinian journalist in the West Bank, or or or or
(But genuinely, I do mean that, I don't know your situation and so if you like, live in the West Bank and have a nuanced view of why there's not a primary civil rights concern there, I'm open to hearing about that!)
posted by kensington314 at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
I suspect that most of the use of Apartheid to describe Israel comes from the fact that despite whatever legal fictions exist, Israel is clearly the polity exercising power in all the supposedly Palestinian territory so it is reasonable for most people to think of the Palestinian people as under de facto Israeli rule.
Most people are aware that Gaza exists in a sort of quantum political state where it is simultaneously independent, part of Israel, under Israeli occupation, and occupied. Most people are also aware that the government of Israel will claim those places and people occupy whichever state it is most advantageous for the government of Israel at that instant, and that the very instant a different position is more advantageous the govenrment of Israel will claim that is and always has been the reality.
We're back, yet again, at the fact that the various govenrments of Israel, not just the current right wing one, has found it convenient to keep all issues regarding Palestinians (other than the minority who have actual Israeli citizenship) and territory in which they live ambiguous.
Which leaves people talking about it in the situation where one party can be absolutely certain that Israel isn't an Apartheid state becuse the Palestinians in question aren't citizens, and another can be certain it is because Israel has ultimate control over the lives of those people. And depending on which lens through which you view Gaza both of those are true.
The govenrment of Israel has created a foggy, vague, ambiguous, mess and it likes things that way.
posted by sotonohito at 12:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Most people are aware that Gaza exists in a sort of quantum political state where it is simultaneously independent, part of Israel, under Israeli occupation, and occupied. Most people are also aware that the government of Israel will claim those places and people occupy whichever state it is most advantageous for the government of Israel at that instant, and that the very instant a different position is more advantageous the govenrment of Israel will claim that is and always has been the reality.
We're back, yet again, at the fact that the various govenrments of Israel, not just the current right wing one, has found it convenient to keep all issues regarding Palestinians (other than the minority who have actual Israeli citizenship) and territory in which they live ambiguous.
Which leaves people talking about it in the situation where one party can be absolutely certain that Israel isn't an Apartheid state becuse the Palestinians in question aren't citizens, and another can be certain it is because Israel has ultimate control over the lives of those people. And depending on which lens through which you view Gaza both of those are true.
The govenrment of Israel has created a foggy, vague, ambiguous, mess and it likes things that way.
posted by sotonohito at 12:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Over 50 percent of the entire Israeli Jewish population is of at least partial Sephardi/Mizrahi descent. So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture. The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
What? I'm honestly trying to understand the argument here.
1) Are you trying to tell us that the Mizrahi - Jews coming to Israel from Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Iran, and other Arab/Muslim countries - are the driving force behind new settlements on Occupied land in the West Bank? That would be an interesting argument; I'd like to see the evidence.
2) Are you also saying that the Sephardim - the proportion of Israeli Jews who are descended from the folks expelled from Spain and Portugal and the resulting diaspora - are to be counted as people of color in discussions of colonialism? Is that labeling important to you here?
3) How does your argument relate to the fundamentalist Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, many of them part of a movement heavily fostered in the U.S., who are among the most vocal and militant supporters of building new colonial settlements on occupied land?
Thanks for clarifying.
posted by mediareport at 12:32 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
What? I'm honestly trying to understand the argument here.
1) Are you trying to tell us that the Mizrahi - Jews coming to Israel from Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Iran, and other Arab/Muslim countries - are the driving force behind new settlements on Occupied land in the West Bank? That would be an interesting argument; I'd like to see the evidence.
2) Are you also saying that the Sephardim - the proportion of Israeli Jews who are descended from the folks expelled from Spain and Portugal and the resulting diaspora - are to be counted as people of color in discussions of colonialism? Is that labeling important to you here?
3) How does your argument relate to the fundamentalist Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, many of them part of a movement heavily fostered in the U.S., who are among the most vocal and militant supporters of building new colonial settlements on occupied land?
Thanks for clarifying.
posted by mediareport at 12:32 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
sotonohito: despite whatever legal fictions exist, Israel is clearly the polity exercising power in all the supposedly Palestinian territory
Example: Israel collects taxes for the West Bank, and they have stopped transferring that money to the Palestinian Authority. This has caused a rift in the Israeli cabinet, since the finance minister says "fuck 'em" and the defense minister says that the PA is important for stability.
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
Example: Israel collects taxes for the West Bank, and they have stopped transferring that money to the Palestinian Authority. This has caused a rift in the Israeli cabinet, since the finance minister says "fuck 'em" and the defense minister says that the PA is important for stability.
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture.
Tell that to the Ethiopian Jewish women who were given long-term contraceptive injections without their consent.
many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism
The settlers in the West Bank are largely American (there are over sixty thousand settlers in the West Bank who came to Israel from the USA) and Russian; do you even know what colonialism is, or in what context it's being used to describe what's happening in Israel?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:04 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Tell that to the Ethiopian Jewish women who were given long-term contraceptive injections without their consent.
many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism
The settlers in the West Bank are largely American (there are over sixty thousand settlers in the West Bank who came to Israel from the USA) and Russian; do you even know what colonialism is, or in what context it's being used to describe what's happening in Israel?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:04 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
I feel like this represents a very misinformed understanding of both what colonialism is and what it means to be "of color."
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
I feel like this represents a very misinformed understanding of both what colonialism is and what it means to be "of color."
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
context (I personally was unaware of) on a less-aligned European perspective: U. Mullally "Ireland’s criticism of Israel has made it an outlier in the EU. What lies behind it?", plus the second half of this recent Blindboy episode (from 31:35), on the Balfour, Herzog and Black&Tans shared history between Ireland and Palestine.
posted by progosk at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by progosk at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Here is my read of history and why I see this as conflict between countries with legitimacy and self determination at its core.
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Shebba Farms, the West Bank and Gaza began in 1967. Shebba Farm is still claimed by Lebanon and Syria, the Golan Heights by Syria alone. The Golan, Shebba Farms, and East Jerusalem were annexed in 1967 and the people were granted Israeli citizenship. The remainder of the West Bank and Gaza were not annexed into Israel, although I think Israel has now expanded their territorial claims based on illegal settlement of those areas. These regions have always been seen as a temporary occupation by the UN, USA and pretty much every country and a large portion of the Israeli public.
In the aftermath of the Israeli victory the Israelis wanted Arab states to negotiate for the return of "their" land. The Israeli's didn't really think of Palestinians as a distinct identity -- although many Palestinians did. Israel assumed that Egypt or Jordan would want it back. There were some tentative negations between Israel and Jordan but after the Palestinian revolution in Jordan known as Black September in 1970 that came to an end. King Hussein didn't want more Palestinians (even if Jordan would officially claim all of Israel on its maps as part of Transjordan until the 1990s).
The Israelis spent a large part of the 1970 and 1980s rejecting the idea that Palestinians existed. They kept thinking Arab states would take these people and make a border eventually with whatever Israel didn't take. This was a catastrophically bad idea and a mistake. Meanwhile the PLO moved from Jordan to Lebanon and Lebanon fell into a civil war. The rise of Palestinian journals and promotion of the notion of a Palestinian identity was something the Palestinians worked hard one during this period.
During the Lebanese civil war Arafat and other Palestinian groups harbored ambitions of building an army in Lebanon to liberate Palestine. This lead to attacks and Israel thought they could intervene in the civil war, put the Christians in charge of Lebanon and kick out the Palestinians. They succeeded in getting the PLO exiled to Tunisia but failed terribly in every other way.
The departure of the PLO to Tunis left them increasingly isolated from the local Palestinian communities. Palestinian movements to assert their identity separate from just being Arabs became stronger. Literature around the experience of the Nabka and life under Israeli occupation grew popular among both the Palestinian diaspora and in the occupied territories. By 1987 this would develop into a full blown locally driven revolution outside the control of the PLO in the Occupied Territories -- the Intifada. This saw the emergence of groups like Hamas -- some of which were actually helped along by Israel as a counter to the PLO.
In 1991 we had the Gulf War and collapse of the Soviet Union. This caused the PLO leadership in Tunis to feel like they were slipping into irrelevancy. Worse they had backed Saddam Hussein which isolated them politically. A local peace process was started with Palestinian leaders not officially affiliated with people like the PLO. This was lead by people like Hanan Ashwari These talks stalled but opened the door for secret talks between the PLO and Israel leading to the Oslo Accords.
The 1993 Oslo Accords established a framework for peace between the PLO and Israel based on negotiations towards a two state solution. Israel's preconditions to negotiating with PLO (the recognized political authority by the Palestinians) was the acceptance of the right of Israel's to exist and the renunciation of terrorism. The process established the idea that a Palestinian Government would take control over Gaza and the West Bank, establish the institutions of government and move towards full independence a series of interim agreements based on specific milestones. The process broke down as it approached the final status negotiations. These were to resolve the final borders, status of Jerusalem, and the return / compensation for refugees. The parties got extremely close to an agreement in 1999 under Bill Clinton at Camp David.
The process broke down post 9/11 with the Bush administration and Netanyahu. There were attempts made but once Arafat died there was no Palestinian leader who could really pull people together and make a deal. Under Ariel Sharon an attempt by the center right was made to establish peace by simply declaring a border, pulling out of Gaza with the idea that the Palestinians would eventually have to accept the border and make a final peace deal in exchange for recognition. Sharon might have been able to pull it off but then he had a catastrophic stroke and was brain dead. Shortly thereafter Hamas came to power in Gaza and as it doesn't not accept the Oslo Accords and Netanyahu doesn't want to actually see a two state solution; despite being forced to publicly agree to it a few times -- the process is dead.
So today we have a kind of minimalist Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza with separate governments; but no path to final status negations (where Oslo stopped).
Netanyahu doesn't acknowledge the legitimate rights to Palestinian self determination over the whole of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem -- let's call this Maximum Palestine. Nor does he accept their right to full self determination in some smaller area of the West Bank and Gaza -- let's call this Minimum Palestine. He wants no Palestine. When pushed he will accept minimum Palestine, but he does so with a wink and a nod. Hamas has done a simliar wink and nod idea with their statement of acknowledging that the pre-1967 borders "form the the basis of national consensus" -- a sort of nod to a Maximum Palestine.
The settlers are part of the problem. Every US government up until Trump had kept the embassy in Tel Aviv, refused to acknowledge the annexation of East Jerusalem -- including maintaining a separate consulate in East Jerusalem. Every US government up to Trump had refused to accept any settlements in the West Bank or Gaza as legitimate. During the Bush Sr administration in the early 1990s the US had even withheld aid in an attempt to push then PM Shamir into stopping settlements expansion. This at a time when lots of Jewish refugees were coming into Israel from the collapsing Soviet Union. It became a significant US domestic political issue and probably contributed to Bush Sr. defeat. The control Israel has over the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, natural resources and the continued encroachment of settlers and the conflicts they create. Are a significant barrier to the peace process.
Hamas is another part of the problem because it will not accept the basic terms of negotiation and embraces terrorism and violence as a legitimate means of resistance. This serves to justify Netanyahu's position. There is a broad consensus among Israelis that renouncing terrorism and acknowledging the right of Israel to exist are a precondition for negotiations with Palestinian leaders. This has essentially resulted in both sides being able to reject the legitimacy of the other and thus thwart the final attainment of their ambitions for self determination and countries.
Another aspect of the legitimacy problem its that within each community there are extremists who reject the legitimacy of any leader of their community who does not subscribe to an absolutist position. That is absolute Palestine = 100% of the land is under Palestine with few Jews vs. absolute Israel = 100% under Israel with few Arabs. These groups have often thwarted and sabotaged efforts to reach a final resolution of this conflict. For example hard right groups assassinated Rabin. Hamas has fired rockets and sent in suicide bombers to derail talks.
So when I talk about this as a conflict of legitimacy, self determination between countries rather than the civil rights struggle under apartheid it is based on this understanding of the history.
posted by interogative mood at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Shebba Farms, the West Bank and Gaza began in 1967. Shebba Farm is still claimed by Lebanon and Syria, the Golan Heights by Syria alone. The Golan, Shebba Farms, and East Jerusalem were annexed in 1967 and the people were granted Israeli citizenship. The remainder of the West Bank and Gaza were not annexed into Israel, although I think Israel has now expanded their territorial claims based on illegal settlement of those areas. These regions have always been seen as a temporary occupation by the UN, USA and pretty much every country and a large portion of the Israeli public.
In the aftermath of the Israeli victory the Israelis wanted Arab states to negotiate for the return of "their" land. The Israeli's didn't really think of Palestinians as a distinct identity -- although many Palestinians did. Israel assumed that Egypt or Jordan would want it back. There were some tentative negations between Israel and Jordan but after the Palestinian revolution in Jordan known as Black September in 1970 that came to an end. King Hussein didn't want more Palestinians (even if Jordan would officially claim all of Israel on its maps as part of Transjordan until the 1990s).
The Israelis spent a large part of the 1970 and 1980s rejecting the idea that Palestinians existed. They kept thinking Arab states would take these people and make a border eventually with whatever Israel didn't take. This was a catastrophically bad idea and a mistake. Meanwhile the PLO moved from Jordan to Lebanon and Lebanon fell into a civil war. The rise of Palestinian journals and promotion of the notion of a Palestinian identity was something the Palestinians worked hard one during this period.
During the Lebanese civil war Arafat and other Palestinian groups harbored ambitions of building an army in Lebanon to liberate Palestine. This lead to attacks and Israel thought they could intervene in the civil war, put the Christians in charge of Lebanon and kick out the Palestinians. They succeeded in getting the PLO exiled to Tunisia but failed terribly in every other way.
The departure of the PLO to Tunis left them increasingly isolated from the local Palestinian communities. Palestinian movements to assert their identity separate from just being Arabs became stronger. Literature around the experience of the Nabka and life under Israeli occupation grew popular among both the Palestinian diaspora and in the occupied territories. By 1987 this would develop into a full blown locally driven revolution outside the control of the PLO in the Occupied Territories -- the Intifada. This saw the emergence of groups like Hamas -- some of which were actually helped along by Israel as a counter to the PLO.
In 1991 we had the Gulf War and collapse of the Soviet Union. This caused the PLO leadership in Tunis to feel like they were slipping into irrelevancy. Worse they had backed Saddam Hussein which isolated them politically. A local peace process was started with Palestinian leaders not officially affiliated with people like the PLO. This was lead by people like Hanan Ashwari These talks stalled but opened the door for secret talks between the PLO and Israel leading to the Oslo Accords.
The 1993 Oslo Accords established a framework for peace between the PLO and Israel based on negotiations towards a two state solution. Israel's preconditions to negotiating with PLO (the recognized political authority by the Palestinians) was the acceptance of the right of Israel's to exist and the renunciation of terrorism. The process established the idea that a Palestinian Government would take control over Gaza and the West Bank, establish the institutions of government and move towards full independence a series of interim agreements based on specific milestones. The process broke down as it approached the final status negotiations. These were to resolve the final borders, status of Jerusalem, and the return / compensation for refugees. The parties got extremely close to an agreement in 1999 under Bill Clinton at Camp David.
The process broke down post 9/11 with the Bush administration and Netanyahu. There were attempts made but once Arafat died there was no Palestinian leader who could really pull people together and make a deal. Under Ariel Sharon an attempt by the center right was made to establish peace by simply declaring a border, pulling out of Gaza with the idea that the Palestinians would eventually have to accept the border and make a final peace deal in exchange for recognition. Sharon might have been able to pull it off but then he had a catastrophic stroke and was brain dead. Shortly thereafter Hamas came to power in Gaza and as it doesn't not accept the Oslo Accords and Netanyahu doesn't want to actually see a two state solution; despite being forced to publicly agree to it a few times -- the process is dead.
So today we have a kind of minimalist Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza with separate governments; but no path to final status negations (where Oslo stopped).
Netanyahu doesn't acknowledge the legitimate rights to Palestinian self determination over the whole of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem -- let's call this Maximum Palestine. Nor does he accept their right to full self determination in some smaller area of the West Bank and Gaza -- let's call this Minimum Palestine. He wants no Palestine. When pushed he will accept minimum Palestine, but he does so with a wink and a nod. Hamas has done a simliar wink and nod idea with their statement of acknowledging that the pre-1967 borders "form the the basis of national consensus" -- a sort of nod to a Maximum Palestine.
The settlers are part of the problem. Every US government up until Trump had kept the embassy in Tel Aviv, refused to acknowledge the annexation of East Jerusalem -- including maintaining a separate consulate in East Jerusalem. Every US government up to Trump had refused to accept any settlements in the West Bank or Gaza as legitimate. During the Bush Sr administration in the early 1990s the US had even withheld aid in an attempt to push then PM Shamir into stopping settlements expansion. This at a time when lots of Jewish refugees were coming into Israel from the collapsing Soviet Union. It became a significant US domestic political issue and probably contributed to Bush Sr. defeat. The control Israel has over the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, natural resources and the continued encroachment of settlers and the conflicts they create. Are a significant barrier to the peace process.
Hamas is another part of the problem because it will not accept the basic terms of negotiation and embraces terrorism and violence as a legitimate means of resistance. This serves to justify Netanyahu's position. There is a broad consensus among Israelis that renouncing terrorism and acknowledging the right of Israel to exist are a precondition for negotiations with Palestinian leaders. This has essentially resulted in both sides being able to reject the legitimacy of the other and thus thwart the final attainment of their ambitions for self determination and countries.
Another aspect of the legitimacy problem its that within each community there are extremists who reject the legitimacy of any leader of their community who does not subscribe to an absolutist position. That is absolute Palestine = 100% of the land is under Palestine with few Jews vs. absolute Israel = 100% under Israel with few Arabs. These groups have often thwarted and sabotaged efforts to reach a final resolution of this conflict. For example hard right groups assassinated Rabin. Hamas has fired rockets and sent in suicide bombers to derail talks.
So when I talk about this as a conflict of legitimacy, self determination between countries rather than the civil rights struggle under apartheid it is based on this understanding of the history.
posted by interogative mood at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I doubt he has a ton of influence on the Biden administration but that doesn't mean he's not trying?
(Minor aside: Bernie and Biden reportedly get along famously well, and Bernie has been able to bend Biden's ear on economic issues at the very least.)
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Minor aside: Bernie and Biden reportedly get along famously well, and Bernie has been able to bend Biden's ear on economic issues at the very least.)
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here is my read of history...
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
posted by ssg at 2:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
posted by ssg at 2:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
I don’t know if leading questions is the best way forward to a real discussion either. Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to?
posted by gomi at 2:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t know if leading questions is the best way forward to a real discussion either. Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to?
posted by gomi at 2:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to
The mass dispossesion of Palestinians by armed gangs of Jewish terrorists, along with the slaughter of entire villages? This is pretty basic stuff as far as the history of the region goes.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
The mass dispossesion of Palestinians by armed gangs of Jewish terrorists, along with the slaughter of entire villages? This is pretty basic stuff as far as the history of the region goes.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
The level of vitriol that is dumped by a couple of posters here at anyone who doesn’t share a very narrow view of this conflict continues to be ridiculous.
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes. You probably should go back to at least the 1870s and provide us with a breakdown of the different ottoman administrative districts that eventually became British Palestine and the demographics of each and the population flows and land policies. Then you get to WW1 all the changes that occurred with Sikes-Picot, Lawrence of Arabia’s deals with the Hashemites, and the start of the British Mandate. Be sure to discus the multiple British government approaches to “the Jewish question”. Then the end of the mandate, the UN partition plan, its failure and the lead up to the 1948 war with all its various war crimes. Then the post war period and treatment of refugees and governance of Jordan and Egypt and how their different approaches affected the Palestinian disaspora and the events leading up to the 6 day war of 1967. Be sure to address the impact of the Nassers Pan Arabism and the collapse of United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria.
Please explain how any of that makes the model of apartheid South Africa such a useful point comparison and possible source of solutions for the current Israeli occupation.
posted by interogative mood at 3:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes. You probably should go back to at least the 1870s and provide us with a breakdown of the different ottoman administrative districts that eventually became British Palestine and the demographics of each and the population flows and land policies. Then you get to WW1 all the changes that occurred with Sikes-Picot, Lawrence of Arabia’s deals with the Hashemites, and the start of the British Mandate. Be sure to discus the multiple British government approaches to “the Jewish question”. Then the end of the mandate, the UN partition plan, its failure and the lead up to the 1948 war with all its various war crimes. Then the post war period and treatment of refugees and governance of Jordan and Egypt and how their different approaches affected the Palestinian disaspora and the events leading up to the 6 day war of 1967. Be sure to address the impact of the Nassers Pan Arabism and the collapse of United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria.
Please explain how any of that makes the model of apartheid South Africa such a useful point comparison and possible source of solutions for the current Israeli occupation.
posted by interogative mood at 3:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The level of vitriol that is dumped by a couple of posters here at anyone who doesn’t share a very narrow view of this conflict continues to be ridiculous
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Many critics of Israeli policy are not antisemites. Many critics of Israeli policy are antisemites (and a lot of supporters of Israeli policy, particularly in the US, are probably antisemitic fundies as I think PC himself has pointed out). None of this should be that controversial; you have to look beyond "is this person a critic or supporter of Israeli policy" to make any determination.
posted by Justinian at 3:33 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:33 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:35 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:35 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Many critics of Israeli policy are not antisemites
Well aware of that, thanks, was pointing out which side the actual vitriol in this discussion has been coming from.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2023
Well aware of that, thanks, was pointing out which side the actual vitriol in this discussion has been coming from.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2023
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
I've not accused any one here of being a tiki torch nazi nor have I called anyone here an antisemite. You seem to have confused me with someone else. I've discussed words and provided information about why they are perceived as antisemetic.
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
Well it's a war and there are two sides and both sides have a less than stellar history when it comes to war crimes. This isn't an issue like climate change or childhood vaccination.
posted by interogative mood at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've not accused any one here of being a tiki torch nazi nor have I called anyone here an antisemite. You seem to have confused me with someone else. I've discussed words and provided information about why they are perceived as antisemetic.
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
Well it's a war and there are two sides and both sides have a less than stellar history when it comes to war crimes. This isn't an issue like climate change or childhood vaccination.
posted by interogative mood at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
House approves GOP’s $14.3 billion Israel aid package.
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2023
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2023
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes.
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area. I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area. I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
how ironic that a right-wing extremist-run israel is bringing the united states to the cusp of its own Fascist Republicanist regime at the hands of a right-wing talk show host
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
how ironic that a right-wing extremist-run israel is bringing the united states to the cusp of its own Fascist Republicanist regime at the hands of a right-wing talk show host
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area
"Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization". Irgun's tactics appealed to many Jews who believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism."
not too wild about The Stern Gang trying to make a pact with the Nazis either.
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization". Irgun's tactics appealed to many Jews who believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism."
not too wild about The Stern Gang trying to make a pact with the Nazis either.
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
how ironic that
Fear of the IRS and Iran is republican dogma. bill allows no money for Ukraine or humanitarian aid to Gaza as if constantly repeating the historical mantra that is still 1928.
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fear of the IRS and Iran is republican dogma. bill allows no money for Ukraine or humanitarian aid to Gaza as if constantly repeating the historical mantra that is still 1928.
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
I wrote a couple papers on it. They're published and you can find them in your favorite academic journal. Really what everyone should do is read the minority and majority report of the UNSCOP. Many think that any UN action was some cynical ploy of imperial states, but the report has the tone of 'this situation is fucked, we think we have a solution that wouldn't end in mass killings, but that doesn't seem possible to implement, so we'll go with this other one, lets hope it ends well'. its really remarkable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wrote a couple papers on it. They're published and you can find them in your favorite academic journal. Really what everyone should do is read the minority and majority report of the UNSCOP. Many think that any UN action was some cynical ploy of imperial states, but the report has the tone of 'this situation is fucked, we think we have a solution that wouldn't end in mass killings, but that doesn't seem possible to implement, so we'll go with this other one, lets hope it ends well'. its really remarkable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ben Gurion and mainstream Israeli leaders were often trying to stop Irgun and opposed their actions. This lead to actual fighting between the IDF and Irgun in June of 1948 in the incident known as Altalena Affair.
As with everything in this conflict there is a ton of context that needs to be considered to really understand events.
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
As with everything in this conflict there is a ton of context that needs to be considered to really understand events.
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Comment removed. Folks, this is a long thread with a lot of people having a conversation, don't turn it into a wrestling match between a few folks, don't make it personal, and if you've been heavily commenting lately, maybe open some space up for other people. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
I really don't know, who does? But using History is not making any argument for either side, I just go by the current chronology, see how it affects the world and around myself. interogative mood'info is more accurate then not but I read something that stands out about, genocide, history and exegecy. the context.
"During the war (WW2), two requests were repeatedly made to the warring parties-by Jewish organizations in London and washington, urging their governments to bomb the death camps in Auschwitz; by the Mufti's office in Berlin, urging the German government to bomb Tel Aviv. neither request was accepted-not because of any ill will on one side or Goodwill on the other, but for the same basic reason-that's such a bombardment would serve no military purpose and make no direct contribution towards winning the war. it did not there for, in purely military terms, justify the risks and costs involved."
-Lewis, The Middle East. pg.351.
posted by clavdivs at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really don't know, who does? But using History is not making any argument for either side, I just go by the current chronology, see how it affects the world and around myself. interogative mood'info is more accurate then not but I read something that stands out about, genocide, history and exegecy. the context.
"During the war (WW2), two requests were repeatedly made to the warring parties-by Jewish organizations in London and washington, urging their governments to bomb the death camps in Auschwitz; by the Mufti's office in Berlin, urging the German government to bomb Tel Aviv. neither request was accepted-not because of any ill will on one side or Goodwill on the other, but for the same basic reason-that's such a bombardment would serve no military purpose and make no direct contribution towards winning the war. it did not there for, in purely military terms, justify the risks and costs involved."
-Lewis, The Middle East. pg.351.
posted by clavdivs at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYT:
Israel Is Silencing Internal Critics
By Michael Sfard. Mr. Sfard is an Israeli human rights lawyer and the author of “The Wall and the Gate: Israel, Palestine and the Legal Battle for Human Rights.”
posted by lalochezia at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel Is Silencing Internal Critics
By Michael Sfard. Mr. Sfard is an Israeli human rights lawyer and the author of “The Wall and the Gate: Israel, Palestine and the Legal Battle for Human Rights.”
posted by lalochezia at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Kuwaiti Newspaper Al-Jarida reports that the US and Iran are edging closer to war
The US has warned Iran and Hezbollah that if Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declares war or engages in a significant escalation against Israel the US will consider it a declaration of war by Iran on Israel and respond. The message from the US allegedly included some satellite photos of Iranian bases and assets in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Along with photos of specific Iranian military commanders based on those regions and a picture of IRGC Commander Qasem Soleimani — whom the US assassinated under Trump.
Meanwhile Iran and Hezbollah have said that if there is no ceasefire by Friday they will take action against Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 8:29 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The US has warned Iran and Hezbollah that if Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declares war or engages in a significant escalation against Israel the US will consider it a declaration of war by Iran on Israel and respond. The message from the US allegedly included some satellite photos of Iranian bases and assets in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Along with photos of specific Iranian military commanders based on those regions and a picture of IRGC Commander Qasem Soleimani — whom the US assassinated under Trump.
Meanwhile Iran and Hezbollah have said that if there is no ceasefire by Friday they will take action against Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 8:29 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
How reliable is Al-Jarida? I don't know that outlet. Are we talking Al-Jazeera or are we talking Middle East Eye?
posted by Justinian at 10:05 PM on November 2, 2023
posted by Justinian at 10:05 PM on November 2, 2023
I wasn't looking but these all seem to come up/shared since I last came online:
N+1: A Dangerous Conflation - An open letter from Jewish writers - editor's note: A group of Jewish writers drafted this letter after seeing an old argument gain new power: the claim that critiquing Israel is antisemitic. Editors at a corporate-owned magazine were prepared to publish the letter, but their lawyers advised against it. The writers share this letter in solidarity with those who continue to speak out in support of Palestinian freedom.
Dave Zirin: For the People in the Back: Anti-Zionism Is Not Anti-Semitism
Joshua P. Hill: No. Jews are not Facing a Second Holocaust - Please stop making these comparisons.
posted by cendawanita at 10:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
N+1: A Dangerous Conflation - An open letter from Jewish writers - editor's note: A group of Jewish writers drafted this letter after seeing an old argument gain new power: the claim that critiquing Israel is antisemitic. Editors at a corporate-owned magazine were prepared to publish the letter, but their lawyers advised against it. The writers share this letter in solidarity with those who continue to speak out in support of Palestinian freedom.
Dave Zirin: For the People in the Back: Anti-Zionism Is Not Anti-Semitism
Joshua P. Hill: No. Jews are not Facing a Second Holocaust - Please stop making these comparisons.
posted by cendawanita at 10:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If Hamas remains in power, what then? What choice would Israel have but to draconiously sanction and watch over Gaza? What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
posted by xammerboy at 11:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 11:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate. Has anyone read a anything that opines on likely outcomes of a political shakeup? I'm not familiar with Israeli parliamentary politics beyond what reading I did around formation of the unity government.
posted by kensington314 at 11:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 11:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
If Hamas remains in power, what then? What choice would Israel have but to draconiously sanction and watch over Gaza? What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
Well, "draconian sanctions and watch over Gaza" is no good, but light years better than "let's kill children on an industrial scale."
It seems at least plausible that this would have been totally prevented by a different set of military and intelligence strategies and deployments. So, do those and then start the yearslong work of a political solution.
We're gonna be on the Blue in four years bemoaning how the Gaza assault of 2023 created a currently non-existent and eventually-worse-than-Hamas terror group formed from the ashes of today. Analysts will say they should've gone for something smarter than collective punishment and revenge.
I mean it. We'll be here having that conversation. It's terrible and it wasn't the only option.
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Well, "draconian sanctions and watch over Gaza" is no good, but light years better than "let's kill children on an industrial scale."
It seems at least plausible that this would have been totally prevented by a different set of military and intelligence strategies and deployments. So, do those and then start the yearslong work of a political solution.
We're gonna be on the Blue in four years bemoaning how the Gaza assault of 2023 created a currently non-existent and eventually-worse-than-Hamas terror group formed from the ashes of today. Analysts will say they should've gone for something smarter than collective punishment and revenge.
I mean it. We'll be here having that conversation. It's terrible and it wasn't the only option.
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas? //
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate.
This seems like the real (current) obstacle to me, is that on both sides we have radicals who do not actually want peace. Somebody get these guys out of here! There are Palestinians and Israelis who are reasonable and compassionate people, but they are not making the decisions. We do not really need a big rehashing of hisstorical injustices, that is spinning the wheels, we need brave forward thinking towards something new and better.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate.
This seems like the real (current) obstacle to me, is that on both sides we have radicals who do not actually want peace. Somebody get these guys out of here! There are Palestinians and Israelis who are reasonable and compassionate people, but they are not making the decisions. We do not really need a big rehashing of hisstorical injustices, that is spinning the wheels, we need brave forward thinking towards something new and better.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
'There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza' (BBC)
“Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza. Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza,” a post from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on X, formerly Twitter, read.
Returning them to the area they are bombing, have themselves declared unsafe for civilians. Nice.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
“Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza. Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza,” a post from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on X, formerly Twitter, read.
Returning them to the area they are bombing, have themselves declared unsafe for civilians. Nice.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
context (I personally was unaware of) on a less-aligned European perspective: U. Mullally "Ireland’s criticism of Israel has made it an outlier in the EU. What lies behind it?", plus the second half of this recent Blindboy episode (from 31:35), on the Balfour, Herzog and Black&Tans shared history between Ireland and Palestine.Likely a fair amount of overlap, but the latest episode of The Irish Passport podcast covers similar subject matter.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 2:40 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
White House Requests “Unprecedented” Loophole That Would Obscure Arms Sales to Israel
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Biden officials voice new concerns and warnings over Israel’s war with Hamas
As the humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens and the death toll among Palestinian civilians continues to rise, there is growing concern among top Biden administration officials about how the Israelis are carrying out the war and uncertainty about whether they can be reined in, according to two current and two former senior U.S. officials familiar with the internal discussions.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:32 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some administration officials also are worried that the U.S. could become more and more isolated on the world stage over President Joe Biden’s close alignment with Israel — and that he will be blamed for some of the Israeli military’s actions, according to three current and former officials.
Biden and his top aides have in the past week adjusted the administration’s public message to emphasize concern for Palestinian civilians and U.S. efforts to get them humanitarian relief. The shift follows growing criticism at home and abroad of Biden’s decision to swiftly and staunchly back Israel’s military response to Hamas while initially speaking less forcefully about protecting Palestinians; meanwhile, images of civilian casualties in Gaza continue to ricochet around the world.
CNN quoting Secretary Blinken, currently in Israel, after viewing additional footage from the Oct. 7 Hamas attack:
“I saw, for example, a family on a kibbutz, a father (of) two young boys — maybe 10, 11 years old — grabbing them, pulling them out of their living room, going through their very small backyard and into a shelter, followed seconds later by a terrorist who throws a grenade into that small shelter. And then as the father come staggering out, shoots him down. And then the boys come out, and they run into their house, and the camera in the house is filming everything. And they're crying. ‘Where's daddy?’ one says. The other says, ‘They killed daddy. Where's my mommy?’ And then the terrorists comes in, and casually opens the refrigerator and starts to eat from it,” Blinken said he saw in the video.posted by gwint at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The top US diplomat expressed sympathy for the plight of Palestinians civilians as well, saying he sees his own children when he sees images of “Palestinian children, young boys and girls, pulled from the wreckage and buildings.”
“Hamas doesn't care one second or one iota for the welfare, for the well-being of the Palestinian people,” said Blinken. “It cynically and monstrously uses them as human shields, putting his commanders in command posts, its weapons and ammunition, within or beneath residential buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals.”
The Guardian: Jabalia Camp Airstrike - a visual analysis. Hamas reports at least 195 dead. The Guardian counts at least 5 craters. The IDF claims they were targeting a senior Hamas commander who was leading the fighting in Northern Gaza from a network of tunnels under the camp, and that the tunnel collapse worsened the collateral damage.
Hamas using a tunnel to make a pop-up ambush on an IDF tank with an IED and a tandem warhead RPG. Additional footage of Hamas fighters using the tunnels and firing RPGs at IDF tanks.
IDF operation blowing up a similar looking tunnel system in Gaza.
Hamas drone attack on IDF soldiers, using a grenade. In reference to speculation earlier about why communications were disrupted before the attack, I believe it will soon be standard procedure to blanket the combat zone with full spectrum jamming to mitigate the impact of drone attacks and disrupt enemy communications. IDF has so far suffered 18 soldier deaths (Reuters) since the ground offensive began.
Palestinians eating a meal while dozens of rockets destined for Israel fly overhead. I thought the banal juxtaposition was interesting: one commenter says the women is praying the rockets hit their targets. This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
posted by xdvesper at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hamas using a tunnel to make a pop-up ambush on an IDF tank with an IED and a tandem warhead RPG. Additional footage of Hamas fighters using the tunnels and firing RPGs at IDF tanks.
IDF operation blowing up a similar looking tunnel system in Gaza.
Hamas drone attack on IDF soldiers, using a grenade. In reference to speculation earlier about why communications were disrupted before the attack, I believe it will soon be standard procedure to blanket the combat zone with full spectrum jamming to mitigate the impact of drone attacks and disrupt enemy communications. IDF has so far suffered 18 soldier deaths (Reuters) since the ground offensive began.
Palestinians eating a meal while dozens of rockets destined for Israel fly overhead. I thought the banal juxtaposition was interesting: one commenter says the women is praying the rockets hit their targets. This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
posted by xdvesper at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
I'm fairly sure no one is proposing a peace deal with Hamas because, as you note, Hamas has no interest in dealing in good faith. I'm fine with the idea of ending Hamas and I suspect most people are.
People are just opposed to the current Israel plan to "attack Hamas" by murdering a large number of civilians and saying it doesn't matter because they're "human shields" or "collatoral damage".
Many people, and I"m among them, suspect that the Maximal Zionism faction in Israel, the faction that wants Israel to exist at roughly its Biblical borders and for all Palestinians in the as yet unreclaimed territory to be evicted, is using 10/7 as a pretext to achieve that goal without openly admitting that's what they're doing.
As a plan to end Hamas the current proposal from Israel, a long bombing campaign to raze Gaza and make it uninhabitable followed by a long ground campaign and no actual specified end goal or condition, is terrible both from a military and humanitarian standpoint. But as a plan to drive out or kill the Palestinian population of Gaza and then take over without admitting that's the actual goal it's pretty good.
and, of course, we see the same Maximal Zionism plan at work in the West Bank where the project of eradicating the Palestinian population and claiming all land there for Israel via "settlers" stealing land and houses at gunpoint and killing or evicting the owners is proceeding as well as Netanyahu and his associates could desire. They're accelerating things by giving the "settlers" even more and bigger weapons as well as even more IDF support in their project to evict and/or kill all the Palestinians in the West Bank.
I'm not a strategist or tactician. I don't know what a better approach would entail (except a lot less or even no bombing). But I do know that it's impossible to defeat a guerrilla movement without genocide, as long as that guerrilla movement has popular support.
To me it would see that the correct approach is to end the popular support not to engage in genocide.
I'll also note that "ending Hamas" via genocide is going to create a long term problem for Israel because it will instantly create a successor organization to Hamas built by the people who will be looking for revenge on Israel because of the genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 7:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
I'm fairly sure no one is proposing a peace deal with Hamas because, as you note, Hamas has no interest in dealing in good faith. I'm fine with the idea of ending Hamas and I suspect most people are.
People are just opposed to the current Israel plan to "attack Hamas" by murdering a large number of civilians and saying it doesn't matter because they're "human shields" or "collatoral damage".
Many people, and I"m among them, suspect that the Maximal Zionism faction in Israel, the faction that wants Israel to exist at roughly its Biblical borders and for all Palestinians in the as yet unreclaimed territory to be evicted, is using 10/7 as a pretext to achieve that goal without openly admitting that's what they're doing.
As a plan to end Hamas the current proposal from Israel, a long bombing campaign to raze Gaza and make it uninhabitable followed by a long ground campaign and no actual specified end goal or condition, is terrible both from a military and humanitarian standpoint. But as a plan to drive out or kill the Palestinian population of Gaza and then take over without admitting that's the actual goal it's pretty good.
and, of course, we see the same Maximal Zionism plan at work in the West Bank where the project of eradicating the Palestinian population and claiming all land there for Israel via "settlers" stealing land and houses at gunpoint and killing or evicting the owners is proceeding as well as Netanyahu and his associates could desire. They're accelerating things by giving the "settlers" even more and bigger weapons as well as even more IDF support in their project to evict and/or kill all the Palestinians in the West Bank.
I'm not a strategist or tactician. I don't know what a better approach would entail (except a lot less or even no bombing). But I do know that it's impossible to defeat a guerrilla movement without genocide, as long as that guerrilla movement has popular support.
To me it would see that the correct approach is to end the popular support not to engage in genocide.
I'll also note that "ending Hamas" via genocide is going to create a long term problem for Israel because it will instantly create a successor organization to Hamas built by the people who will be looking for revenge on Israel because of the genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 7:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [31 favorites]
More parallels with the post-9/11 world, from Times of Israel:
IDF soldiers film themselves abusing, humiliating West Bank Palestinians
It links to the videos on Twitter, but you can copy the links, post them in the search bar at nitter.net and view them at that mirror site, like this one of an IDF soldier forcing a blindfolded and zip-tied Palestinian to dance with him (FWIW, Google has the Hebrew caption as "The only thing you humiliate is the IDF uniform"). The IDF released a statement saying "One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service" but it's not clear what's being done with the others.
The article also discusses the ramping up of settler violence against rural Palestinian villages - burning homes, throwing rocks, leaving notes threatening murder if families don't leave - and links to this page at the independent nonprofit 972mag.com:
Settler-soldier militias threaten Susiya with death and displacement:
Ahmad Jaber Nawajah lives in Susiya with his wife and two daughters, aged 7 and 8. At 8 p.m. on Oct. 28, two masked settlers in army uniform broke into their home and started destroying their belongings and taking photos of everything...At 11 p.m. a civilian car with a yellow Israeli license plate arrived at the entrance of the home, and five uniformed men — two of whom were masked — stepped out. They started searching around the outside of the house, and eventually broke into the family’s home again...
Eventually, the men finished photographing and grabbed Nawajah and his brother Muhammad, forcing them to leave the house and ordering them to sit on the ground about 130 feet away. Nawajah, who does not understand Hebrew, sat down on a rock instead of the ground, and one of the settlers started to beat him, grabbing him by the back of the neck and shoving his face into the ground. When Muhammad began to protest, the settlers began kicking and punching him all over his body. One of the settlers then threatened the two brothers, telling them that they have 24 hours to leave their home, or they would come back, shoot them, and destroy their house.
At this point, Israeli military vehicles arrived at the scene and soldiers ordered Nawajah to produce his ID. He went home to retrieve it, while Muhammad explained to the soldiers that the settlers had beaten and threatened to kill them. The soldiers told Muhammad to be quiet and that they should go back into their homes. As Nawajah and Muhammad did so, the settlers repeated their threat, in front of the soldiers.
As the article notes, none of this is new; it's been going on for years, just at a low enough level that it rarely made U.S. TV news shows.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
IDF soldiers film themselves abusing, humiliating West Bank Palestinians
It links to the videos on Twitter, but you can copy the links, post them in the search bar at nitter.net and view them at that mirror site, like this one of an IDF soldier forcing a blindfolded and zip-tied Palestinian to dance with him (FWIW, Google has the Hebrew caption as "The only thing you humiliate is the IDF uniform"). The IDF released a statement saying "One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service" but it's not clear what's being done with the others.
The article also discusses the ramping up of settler violence against rural Palestinian villages - burning homes, throwing rocks, leaving notes threatening murder if families don't leave - and links to this page at the independent nonprofit 972mag.com:
Settler-soldier militias threaten Susiya with death and displacement:
Ahmad Jaber Nawajah lives in Susiya with his wife and two daughters, aged 7 and 8. At 8 p.m. on Oct. 28, two masked settlers in army uniform broke into their home and started destroying their belongings and taking photos of everything...At 11 p.m. a civilian car with a yellow Israeli license plate arrived at the entrance of the home, and five uniformed men — two of whom were masked — stepped out. They started searching around the outside of the house, and eventually broke into the family’s home again...
Eventually, the men finished photographing and grabbed Nawajah and his brother Muhammad, forcing them to leave the house and ordering them to sit on the ground about 130 feet away. Nawajah, who does not understand Hebrew, sat down on a rock instead of the ground, and one of the settlers started to beat him, grabbing him by the back of the neck and shoving his face into the ground. When Muhammad began to protest, the settlers began kicking and punching him all over his body. One of the settlers then threatened the two brothers, telling them that they have 24 hours to leave their home, or they would come back, shoot them, and destroy their house.
At this point, Israeli military vehicles arrived at the scene and soldiers ordered Nawajah to produce his ID. He went home to retrieve it, while Muhammad explained to the soldiers that the settlers had beaten and threatened to kill them. The soldiers told Muhammad to be quiet and that they should go back into their homes. As Nawajah and Muhammad did so, the settlers repeated their threat, in front of the soldiers.
As the article notes, none of this is new; it's been going on for years, just at a low enough level that it rarely made U.S. TV news shows.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
RE: tunnels
Obviously pumping tunnels full of seawater is a terrible idea that would result in massive ecological catastrophe. But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume? Or even just nitrogen gas to suffocate the people using the tunnels?
Is there any reason other than the desire to harm civlians and raze surface structures for Israel to be taking a bomb only approah to the tunnels?
posted by sotonohito at 7:58 AM on November 3, 2023
Obviously pumping tunnels full of seawater is a terrible idea that would result in massive ecological catastrophe. But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume? Or even just nitrogen gas to suffocate the people using the tunnels?
Is there any reason other than the desire to harm civlians and raze surface structures for Israel to be taking a bomb only approah to the tunnels?
posted by sotonohito at 7:58 AM on November 3, 2023
This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
How many people are they trying to kill, though? Do you think they'd fire less if they all landed where intended? Or, more? If you asked Hamas leaders "how many Israelis would you like to see dead" do you think you'd get some kind of philosophical answer about proportionality? It'd be about as sane as the Greater Israel crowd.
But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume?
In this economy?
Also, because then you'd be recharging their water table. Which ought to be a bonus, but....
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2023
But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume?
In this economy?
Also, because then you'd be recharging their water table. Which ought to be a bonus, but....
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2023
What galls me about all this situation is that the person (or the group, or the state) must do what is right. There is no "the other guy is bad so I use any tactics and I am still the good guy" exemption. There's definitely questions about what exactly is right - the Israeli state has an obligation to its own citizens, you don't need to just walk up to the fence and bare your neck - but it is clear that killing at least 9500 people and probably more, mostly civilians and no end in sight, mocking your torture victims, telling people to flee south and then bombing the south, dropping bombs on hospitals, letting your own people kill and threaten in order to steal land on the West Bank, describe obvious civilians as terrorists in order to incite hatred...it's clear that those things aren't right and they would not be right if Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were all in the middle of Gaza.
There is no "Hamas fired some rockets and therefore I am justified in bombing civilians". That's not how it works. You are justified in doing whatever the least destructive plausible thing is to stop Hamas firing rockets, that's all, with the understanding that it may take a little effort to work out what that is.
The most common American movie trope is "if you fight too cruelly against monsters you become a monster", but I forgot that only applies to the left wing to keep the left wing quiet and/or demonized.
posted by Frowner at 9:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
There is no "Hamas fired some rockets and therefore I am justified in bombing civilians". That's not how it works. You are justified in doing whatever the least destructive plausible thing is to stop Hamas firing rockets, that's all, with the understanding that it may take a little effort to work out what that is.
The most common American movie trope is "if you fight too cruelly against monsters you become a monster", but I forgot that only applies to the left wing to keep the left wing quiet and/or demonized.
posted by Frowner at 9:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Anyone urging any solution that does not include full democratic rights for Palestinians and a promise of safety from violence is deluding themselves.
You cannot kill your way to a complacent population.
This is a lesson that hegemonic powers have learned time and time again and yet they continue to repeat it, to appease the bloodlust of both local and global onlookers, and to project an image of strength without mercy.
There is no amount of killing that will undo the horrors of Oct. 7th.
Israel knows that unless they literally get rid of all Palestinians, they will be facing more, and worse, Oct. 7ths in the future.
Again: you cannot murder a population into complacency.
You can either provide a political solution that is more favourable than following a group of fanatical rebels, or you can kill them all.
But you cannot beat, starve, strangle, destroy, and humiliate them into never rising up again.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
You cannot kill your way to a complacent population.
This is a lesson that hegemonic powers have learned time and time again and yet they continue to repeat it, to appease the bloodlust of both local and global onlookers, and to project an image of strength without mercy.
There is no amount of killing that will undo the horrors of Oct. 7th.
Israel knows that unless they literally get rid of all Palestinians, they will be facing more, and worse, Oct. 7ths in the future.
Again: you cannot murder a population into complacency.
You can either provide a political solution that is more favourable than following a group of fanatical rebels, or you can kill them all.
But you cannot beat, starve, strangle, destroy, and humiliate them into never rising up again.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
The thing that gets me is that the IDF didn't respond to Hamas rocket fire by blowing entire neighborhoods to hell. They built a security perimeter at vast expense, an anti-rocket system at vast expense (I think with some American funding), occasionally blew up a rocket factory, etc. It was something Israel could live with.
If they had had advance knowledge of the attack they would not have preempted it by unleashing this sort of barrage. They would have blown up some Hamas commanders (probably by exploding a few apartment buildings, which would have been horrible but not as bad) and strengthened the security zone around the strip. Maybe some more stuff, but it would have been much less than this.
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
If they had had advance knowledge of the attack they would not have preempted it by unleashing this sort of barrage. They would have blown up some Hamas commanders (probably by exploding a few apartment buildings, which would have been horrible but not as bad) and strengthened the security zone around the strip. Maybe some more stuff, but it would have been much less than this.
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
National "Free Palestine" march tomorrow in D.C.
posted by mediareport at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have
Don't know why that seems strange. If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Don't know why that seems strange. If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
> If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
That is why it is strange. You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is why it is strange. You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
video: Israel has just bombed the main entrance of Al Shifaa hospital
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 10:01 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 10:01 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
Was the US response to 9/11 bad for Bush and co? was it bad for all the war's cheerleaders in the press? No, not at all. Maybe the Israeli government did learn the lessons of 9/11.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Was the US response to 9/11 bad for Bush and co? was it bad for all the war's cheerleaders in the press? No, not at all. Maybe the Israeli government did learn the lessons of 9/11.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
Sharing links with NSFW imagery seems fine (with appropriate flagging, like you did), but the urging people to look at it is a bit off. It's there and available, but lots of people have all kinds of reasonable reasons to not choose to look, and that choice isn't out of a lack of care for the victims.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Don't look away!
Sharing links with NSFW imagery seems fine (with appropriate flagging, like you did), but the urging people to look at it is a bit off. It's there and available, but lots of people have all kinds of reasonable reasons to not choose to look, and that choice isn't out of a lack of care for the victims.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
On the other hand, there are absolutely people who seem to have an idea of this war as somehow bloodless, or Palestinians as less than real. At least, that's one of the possible explanations for some of the wild, dehumanizing and minimizing shit that has been posted here. There are people here who could do to remember that this is what Israeli "proportionality" looks like, and that Israel has other choices than to do this, no matter how little you think of Palestine. This is what they're advocating for, and they should look at what they're describing with their weasel words.
posted by sagc at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
It's a call for those who are able to bear witness, it's fine.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
I also have appreciated very much that the Ukraine threads very rarely include links directly to the disturbing imagery and videos. All of that, for both conflicts, is easily available in so many places (including on front pages of newspapers, much less on Reddit/Telegram/Twitter) and it's nice to be able to have a conversation here without having it shoved front and center.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023
posted by Dip Flash at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023
I mean, would it have been better without the link? I think it's important to acknowledge what's actually happening, not just discuss abstractions.
posted by sagc at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
BungaDunga, you've very neatly captured a point I've been trying and failing to put succinct words to, thank you!
(I see one person immediately jumped on this point to snark the shit out of it -- no need to do that, it doesn't contribute to the conversation and it ignores that this point is, while not an answer, at least a relevant starting point to all the "What else should Israel do?" comments throughout this thread.)
posted by kensington314 at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
BungaDunga, you've very neatly captured a point I've been trying and failing to put succinct words to, thank you!
(I see one person immediately jumped on this point to snark the shit out of it -- no need to do that, it doesn't contribute to the conversation and it ignores that this point is, while not an answer, at least a relevant starting point to all the "What else should Israel do?" comments throughout this thread.)
posted by kensington314 at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
Iron Dome is the reason Hamas's rocket attacks haven't killed the same amount of Israelis. It's not that Hamas' rockets are ineffective, it's that Israeli countermeasures are effective against rocket attacks. What October 7th proved is that Israel was too reliant on Iron Dome to protect them from Hamas. There's a world in which they responded by reconsidering their defensive strategy. That is a vastly better world with a vastly better Israel than the one that exists.
There's a line of reasoning where Israel simply can't afford to take the high ground with Hamas, because they are vulnerable on so many fronts. They are not actually all-powerful. Iron Dome can be overwhelmed. It's not the case that Israel can just sit tight and weather whatever. This line of reasoning would be more convincing if Israel's response wasn't very obviously making everything worse for their situation vis a vis other threats. The arguments that the blockade of Gaza is necessary for Israel's security would also be more convincing if Israel wasn't doing everything they think they can get away with to claw back land in the West Bank and terrorize the population there. Likewise, there's reasonable room for disagreement about whether Israel is inherently a settler colonial state and has been from its inception. But anyone who argues yes on that side, when challenged, can point to what's happening in the West Bank right now as indisputably settler colonialism, either implicitly changing the question or using that to support their answer to the original question. Israel is doing itself no favors on any front and hasn't been for a very long time.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Iron Dome is the reason Hamas's rocket attacks haven't killed the same amount of Israelis. It's not that Hamas' rockets are ineffective, it's that Israeli countermeasures are effective against rocket attacks. What October 7th proved is that Israel was too reliant on Iron Dome to protect them from Hamas. There's a world in which they responded by reconsidering their defensive strategy. That is a vastly better world with a vastly better Israel than the one that exists.
There's a line of reasoning where Israel simply can't afford to take the high ground with Hamas, because they are vulnerable on so many fronts. They are not actually all-powerful. Iron Dome can be overwhelmed. It's not the case that Israel can just sit tight and weather whatever. This line of reasoning would be more convincing if Israel's response wasn't very obviously making everything worse for their situation vis a vis other threats. The arguments that the blockade of Gaza is necessary for Israel's security would also be more convincing if Israel wasn't doing everything they think they can get away with to claw back land in the West Bank and terrorize the population there. Likewise, there's reasonable room for disagreement about whether Israel is inherently a settler colonial state and has been from its inception. But anyone who argues yes on that side, when challenged, can point to what's happening in the West Bank right now as indisputably settler colonialism, either implicitly changing the question or using that to support their answer to the original question. Israel is doing itself no favors on any front and hasn't been for a very long time.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I mean, would it have been better without the link?
No, it would have been better without the tacky push to have people look.
Seriously, do you really in your heart of hearts think that the people here who are saying things you believe are wrong, but if they looked at yet one more photo of dead children they would suddenly change their minds? If in return they posted graphic links to images from October 7, would you suddenly change your mind?
posted by Dip Flash at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, it would have been better without the tacky push to have people look.
Seriously, do you really in your heart of hearts think that the people here who are saying things you believe are wrong, but if they looked at yet one more photo of dead children they would suddenly change their minds? If in return they posted graphic links to images from October 7, would you suddenly change your mind?
posted by Dip Flash at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can't believe I'm coming around here to recommend an NYT columnist since that's the point of someone's career where they've ended the productive period of their working life, but I would recommend Ezra Klein's interview with Amaney Jamal.
The day before Hamas’s horrific attacks in Israel, the Arab Barometer, one of the leading polling operations in the Arab world, was finishing up a survey of public opinion in Gaza.She goes into real depth on Palestinian perspectives on Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Israel, plus the impact of changing demography (age, primarily), and on and on. In particular I'd recommend the point from about 00:19:00 onwards, where she discusses the idea that previous negotiations have "failed," and the need for future negotiations. (That's a heavy paraphrase, rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas, at least as I recall.)posted by kensington314 at 10:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The result is a remarkable snapshot of how Gazans felt about Hamas and hoped the conflict with Israel would end. And what Gazans were thinking on Oct. 6 matters, now that they’re all living with the brutal consequences of what Hamas did on Oct. 7.
If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
I thought about mentioning that too, but it felt a bit of a derail. I'm not sure the US wouldn't have gone all-in on a War on Terror even if 9/11 had been foiled, we had already tried to kill bin Laden, there were probably enough Bushies excited about regime change that any anti-alQueda operations would have escalated to regime change anyway. It all kind of seemed overdetermined. Whereas I never got the sense that Israel's rulers were really united in excitement about a Gaza war, but that could just be my ignorance.
rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas,
Israel is already negotiating with Hamas over the hostages, for what it's worth.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I thought about mentioning that too, but it felt a bit of a derail. I'm not sure the US wouldn't have gone all-in on a War on Terror even if 9/11 had been foiled, we had already tried to kill bin Laden, there were probably enough Bushies excited about regime change that any anti-alQueda operations would have escalated to regime change anyway. It all kind of seemed overdetermined. Whereas I never got the sense that Israel's rulers were really united in excitement about a Gaza war, but that could just be my ignorance.
rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas,
Israel is already negotiating with Hamas over the hostages, for what it's worth.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'd suggest that it is incorrect to imagine that the Hamas which fails to pull off this attack in a different timeline is actually the same organization as the Hamas that succeeded.
Perhaps from an internal standpoint that is so, the leaders would be the same people after all.
Both versions of Hamas had the same history of awful but from a national standpoint merely irritating attacks, the same genocidal rhetoric about Israel and Jews, etc
But our version of Hamas is different in that it succeeded and thereby showed it is a more credible threat. Even if that success and increase in threat credibility is due entirely to Israel dropping the ball.
From the standpoint of outside observers the Hamas that succeeds is dangerous enough that many people, people otherwise of good will and intent, believe that genocide in Gaza is an acceptable price to pay for unearthing and destroying that Hamas.
Those same observers, if 10/7 was just another ho hum thwarted attack, would not believe it was justified to engage in devistating war that razez Gaza to destory Hamas.
From our POV there is a vast difference in the two hypothetical Hamases.
posted by sotonohito at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Perhaps from an internal standpoint that is so, the leaders would be the same people after all.
Both versions of Hamas had the same history of awful but from a national standpoint merely irritating attacks, the same genocidal rhetoric about Israel and Jews, etc
But our version of Hamas is different in that it succeeded and thereby showed it is a more credible threat. Even if that success and increase in threat credibility is due entirely to Israel dropping the ball.
From the standpoint of outside observers the Hamas that succeeds is dangerous enough that many people, people otherwise of good will and intent, believe that genocide in Gaza is an acceptable price to pay for unearthing and destroying that Hamas.
Those same observers, if 10/7 was just another ho hum thwarted attack, would not believe it was justified to engage in devistating war that razez Gaza to destory Hamas.
From our POV there is a vast difference in the two hypothetical Hamases.
posted by sotonohito at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’ - sorry, I did a quick search but didn't find this linked, as it's dated already 2 days ago.
To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south.
Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued.
The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media.
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south.
Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued.
The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media.
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
NYTimes: Jewish Viewers Find a Refuge in Fox News
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dr Mark: Been talking to some of my Thai friends. They are well aware of the exploitation of Thai workers in Israel. One died recently and his diary showed he worked 17 to 18 hours a day on an Israeli farm. Their message to Palestinians? สู้ๆนะครับ !! 🇹🇭🇵🇸
สู้ๆนะครับ suu suu na krap/kha means something like "keep fighting, fight hard". It's a common expression of solidarity and encouragement.
Unrelated but also from the region: Maria Ressa of The Rappler and recent Nobel peace prize recipient, reflecting Filipino general establishment sentiment, tweeted a post that says 'from the river to the sea' is antisemitic and people shouldn't avoid condemning Hamas. That was 2 days ago and even on an anemic twitter it still got ratio'd hard, mainly from other Filipinos.
posted by cendawanita at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
สู้ๆนะครับ suu suu na krap/kha means something like "keep fighting, fight hard". It's a common expression of solidarity and encouragement.
Unrelated but also from the region: Maria Ressa of The Rappler and recent Nobel peace prize recipient, reflecting Filipino general establishment sentiment, tweeted a post that says 'from the river to the sea' is antisemitic and people shouldn't avoid condemning Hamas. That was 2 days ago and even on an anemic twitter it still got ratio'd hard, mainly from other Filipinos.
posted by cendawanita at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
The bombing of the ambulance convoy is an unjustified war crime. The Israelis have said evacuate the hospital. According to Red Cross / Red Crescent the IDF is refusing to coordinate with them or provide safe passage. The ambulances were carrying civilians and marked as ambulances. The US should demand an immediate humanitarian pause; but they won’t.
I understand there is a big difference between humanitarian pause and a ceasefire. I think that a humanitarian pause might create the space to get a full ceasefire — first you have a pause; then you extend it and then you keep extending it until you get a ceasefire.
posted by interogative mood at 11:52 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
I understand there is a big difference between humanitarian pause and a ceasefire. I think that a humanitarian pause might create the space to get a full ceasefire — first you have a pause; then you extend it and then you keep extending it until you get a ceasefire.
posted by interogative mood at 11:52 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
NYTimes: Jewish Viewers Find a Refuge in Fox News
One step to further alignment with neo-Nazi and white supremacist politicians, groups, and media outlets in the United States.
One challenge for even the most conservative of Jews in joining Nazi/white supremacy groups is that, regardless of the perception of European-descended Jews by many North Americans, the Nazis still think they are not white. The crazy convoy put a holocaust denier on their main stage up in Ottawa.
I'm not saying there aren't some deluded conservative (or Conservative) Jews who think that the Nazis aren't a problem, but the Nazis are still very concerned with "the Jewish problem".
posted by jb at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2023
One step to further alignment with neo-Nazi and white supremacist politicians, groups, and media outlets in the United States.
One challenge for even the most conservative of Jews in joining Nazi/white supremacy groups is that, regardless of the perception of European-descended Jews by many North Americans, the Nazis still think they are not white. The crazy convoy put a holocaust denier on their main stage up in Ottawa.
I'm not saying there aren't some deluded conservative (or Conservative) Jews who think that the Nazis aren't a problem, but the Nazis are still very concerned with "the Jewish problem".
posted by jb at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2023
I can’t read this because of the paywall, but it sure sounds like contentless, antisemitic click bait. The lede says they talked to some Jewish folks at a diner. Classic NYT, not news.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 12:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It reminds me of the other article on black expats - built on an assertion it refuses to support.
posted by Selena777 at 12:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The lede says they talked to some Jewish folks at a diner. Classic NYT, not news.
Not even that. It's based on FOX ITSELF doing a live show from a NYC deli.
From which an aptly named commenter asserted alignment of Jews with Nazis.
Some interlocutors in this thread deserve rather more attention than others.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not even that. It's based on FOX ITSELF doing a live show from a NYC deli.
From which an aptly named commenter asserted alignment of Jews with Nazis.
Some interlocutors in this thread deserve rather more attention than others.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Early this morning Protestors at the Port of Oakland, CA are blocking a US ship that will be sending military weapons to Israel - Twitter. Current position via MarineTraffic: mv Cape Orlando
posted by Lanark at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
it's clear that those things aren't right and they would not be right if Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were all in the middle of Gaza
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel. not a great analogy as Pol Pot would be defending from an overwhelming Force all the while killing his own people with the aid of children soldiers.
"Iranian-backed militants, including LH, conducted 28 attacks into northern Israel on November 2, which is the largest offensive on this front since the Israel-Hamas War began."
Iranian Supreme National Security Council Secretary Rear Admiral Ali Akbar Ahmadian met with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Special Representative for Syrian Affairs Alexander Lavrentiev in Tehran on November 1 The two officials discussed the Israel-Hamas war, joint political and security cooperation, and cooperation in Syria. Lavrentiev also delivered a message from Putin to Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi."
"An Iranian media delegation traveled to Lebanon to meet with Palestinian militia commanders on November 2, likely in part to coordinate Axis of Resistance messaging and information operations"
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 2:13 PM on November 3, 2023
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel. not a great analogy as Pol Pot would be defending from an overwhelming Force all the while killing his own people with the aid of children soldiers.
"Iranian-backed militants, including LH, conducted 28 attacks into northern Israel on November 2, which is the largest offensive on this front since the Israel-Hamas War began."
Iranian Supreme National Security Council Secretary Rear Admiral Ali Akbar Ahmadian met with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Special Representative for Syrian Affairs Alexander Lavrentiev in Tehran on November 1 The two officials discussed the Israel-Hamas war, joint political and security cooperation, and cooperation in Syria. Lavrentiev also delivered a message from Putin to Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi."
"An Iranian media delegation traveled to Lebanon to meet with Palestinian militia commanders on November 2, likely in part to coordinate Axis of Resistance messaging and information operations"
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 2:13 PM on November 3, 2023
Not that I agree with Israel’s justification for the bombing of tunnels as opposed to other methods; but for context and information this is how they justify it.
Iron Dome is very expensive. So simply turtling down and allowing the unrestricted bombardment from Gaza is not sustainable. Israel is a small country and a large army. So when they mobilize the reservists that is pretty much everyone who can fight. This isn’t like the US or Ukraine or Russia where you can expand conscription to replace the soldiers you lose . They also have to be careful when attacking any target not to overcommit their forces and end up vulnerable to a rapid attack from Syria or Lebanon. Israel lacks geographic depth. Israel builds its war plans under these constraints. The want quick, overwhelming destruction of the enemy with low risk to their own forces.
There are more civilian friendly ways to attack the tunnels, including expanding foam, water and flame throwers those all require putting soldiers at much higher risk than dropping a bomb. Keep in mind the tunnels have multiple hidden entrances and exits. They are surrounded by building that provide cover for snipers and counter attacks. Ground attacks into urban areas usually result in lots of casualties.
Therefore when the cold blooded war planners are given the order to destroy Hamas this is the war plan they come up with. They don’t see an alternative way to win. This doesn’t mean they ignore every humanitarian concern. Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I think their objective is impossible. So whatever justification Israel has is irrelevant. The justification is only valid if there is some chance of success. I don’t subscribe to the notion that any military response is unjustifiable. I just don’t see a strategy here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Iron Dome is very expensive. So simply turtling down and allowing the unrestricted bombardment from Gaza is not sustainable. Israel is a small country and a large army. So when they mobilize the reservists that is pretty much everyone who can fight. This isn’t like the US or Ukraine or Russia where you can expand conscription to replace the soldiers you lose . They also have to be careful when attacking any target not to overcommit their forces and end up vulnerable to a rapid attack from Syria or Lebanon. Israel lacks geographic depth. Israel builds its war plans under these constraints. The want quick, overwhelming destruction of the enemy with low risk to their own forces.
There are more civilian friendly ways to attack the tunnels, including expanding foam, water and flame throwers those all require putting soldiers at much higher risk than dropping a bomb. Keep in mind the tunnels have multiple hidden entrances and exits. They are surrounded by building that provide cover for snipers and counter attacks. Ground attacks into urban areas usually result in lots of casualties.
Therefore when the cold blooded war planners are given the order to destroy Hamas this is the war plan they come up with. They don’t see an alternative way to win. This doesn’t mean they ignore every humanitarian concern. Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I think their objective is impossible. So whatever justification Israel has is irrelevant. The justification is only valid if there is some chance of success. I don’t subscribe to the notion that any military response is unjustifiable. I just don’t see a strategy here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel
That's a very bizarre way to interpret a statement that says "this wouldn't be right if the 20th century's greatest mass murderers were in the middle of Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's a very bizarre way to interpret a statement that says "this wouldn't be right if the 20th century's greatest mass murderers were in the middle of Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
ohhhh, I see as in if Pol Pot was in Gaza, like living there, the bombing would not be justified. he'd just be citizen Sar.
How bizarre as Pol Pot lived in security for many years after he was ejected from power selling gemstones and rhetoric.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on November 3, 2023
How bizarre as Pol Pot lived in security for many years after he was ejected from power selling gemstones and rhetoric.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on November 3, 2023
I just don’t see a strategy here.
I tend to agree, while dated, The tunnels of Củ Chi is an interesting comparitive minus updated sensory technology.
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023
I tend to agree, while dated, The tunnels of Củ Chi is an interesting comparitive minus updated sensory technology.
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023
No, Pol Pot was not "in the role of Israel", my point was that murdering tons of civilians and sadistically lying to them about where they could flee then bombing them as they fled would not be justified even if, theoretically, you were trying to kill someone who was literally obviously right there and who individually, provably, intentionally enacted evil from a position of power and security. My point - one that I thought was pretty straightforward - is that all the logic-chopping about whether it's legit to bomb a bunch of civilians because Hamas also attempts to bomb civilians misses the elementary point that you don't get to do grossly immoral things even if someone else has done them.
posted by Frowner at 3:05 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 3:05 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel says that they bombed the ambulance because it "was identified by forces as being used by a Hamas terrorist cell in close proximity to their position in the battle zone."
They had no idea that the biggest attack in years was on its way, but they're pretty sure their intelligence is good enough to justify bombing an ambulance.
posted by clawsoon at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
They had no idea that the biggest attack in years was on its way, but they're pretty sure their intelligence is good enough to justify bombing an ambulance.
posted by clawsoon at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I appreciate this. I arrived at that pessimism when the 'evacuation zone' was designated; but was hoping to be wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on November 3, 2023
I appreciate this. I arrived at that pessimism when the 'evacuation zone' was designated; but was hoping to be wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on November 3, 2023
sadistically lying to them about where they could flee then bombing them as they fled would not be justified even if, theoretically.
I see, thanks Frowner for clarification. Ironically, the contrast historically, is that Pot lied to the population of major cities in that they must evacuate because the Americans were going to bomb the cities.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023
I see, thanks Frowner for clarification. Ironically, the contrast historically, is that Pot lied to the population of major cities in that they must evacuate because the Americans were going to bomb the cities.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023
The bombing of the ambulance convoy is an unjustified war crime. The Israelis have said evacuate the hospital.
The IDF has been working up to this for the past week, it wasn't something that came out of the blue.
It was a week ago that Israel shared publicly that it had concrete evidence that the hospital in question was being used as a Hamas base of operations and was part of their tunnel network and warned the hospital to evacuate. (some reporting by the Guardian on this hospital specifically, and use of human shield by Hamas in general). They also privately sent through more classified intelligence to their security partners, mainly the US, for vetting, I did see it in the news at the time but a quick Google search fails to turn up hits - anyway, we can assume the intelligence and defense agencies are in close and frequent contact.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes. The aggressor has to give a warning, with a time limit, and the other party has to have ignored that warning, before a strike is considered legal.
I'm fairly sure Israel would have "cleared" these strikes with their foreign partners, and I would guess they might have said, well, technically legal, but there's no way to manage the media fallout of this, so you're on your own.
posted by xdvesper at 4:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The IDF has been working up to this for the past week, it wasn't something that came out of the blue.
It was a week ago that Israel shared publicly that it had concrete evidence that the hospital in question was being used as a Hamas base of operations and was part of their tunnel network and warned the hospital to evacuate. (some reporting by the Guardian on this hospital specifically, and use of human shield by Hamas in general). They also privately sent through more classified intelligence to their security partners, mainly the US, for vetting, I did see it in the news at the time but a quick Google search fails to turn up hits - anyway, we can assume the intelligence and defense agencies are in close and frequent contact.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes. The aggressor has to give a warning, with a time limit, and the other party has to have ignored that warning, before a strike is considered legal.
I'm fairly sure Israel would have "cleared" these strikes with their foreign partners, and I would guess they might have said, well, technically legal, but there's no way to manage the media fallout of this, so you're on your own.
posted by xdvesper at 4:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
Maybe in theory but the US did kill at least 300,000 and probably more civilians in Iraq not even 20 years ago.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes.
re: the hospital. It's true that a hospital loses its protected status if Hamas is using it. But for a lot of people that's not justification for the civilian casualties. A lot of the dynamic at play here follows the same pattern. If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents. Basically nothing Israel does militarily in gaza will be justifiable under that rubric because the axiom is that Israel going into Gaza is wrong on its face, so anything done in support of that is also unjustifiable.
Somebody doing a home invasion can't claim necessity or self defense if they use deadly force against the person in the home. If you believe Israel is in the role of the home invader in Gaza then of course you're going to reject the argument that something causing civilian casualties is justified; it's axiomatic.
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe in theory but the US did kill at least 300,000 and probably more civilians in Iraq not even 20 years ago.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes.
re: the hospital. It's true that a hospital loses its protected status if Hamas is using it. But for a lot of people that's not justification for the civilian casualties. A lot of the dynamic at play here follows the same pattern. If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents. Basically nothing Israel does militarily in gaza will be justifiable under that rubric because the axiom is that Israel going into Gaza is wrong on its face, so anything done in support of that is also unjustifiable.
Somebody doing a home invasion can't claim necessity or self defense if they use deadly force against the person in the home. If you believe Israel is in the role of the home invader in Gaza then of course you're going to reject the argument that something causing civilian casualties is justified; it's axiomatic.
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am very sympathetic to Israel xdvesper but this was a convoy of ambulances that were transporting wounded away from the hospital . The hospital is apparently trying to evacuate and the red cross / red crescent has asked to coordinate these operations with the IDF but the IDF will not cooperate. The moral outrage generated among Israel’s allies by attacks like this are not going to be reduced by a legal analysis alone.
Israel cannot afford to fight a long war, no matter the justification without the sustaining the goodwill of the citizens of its allies. Actions like this undermine that.
It is the old adage: if a nation always ignores its national interests it will cease to exists; but if a country always
Ignores its values for the national interests what was the point of having a country. In diplomacy and war there must be a careful balance.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel cannot afford to fight a long war, no matter the justification without the sustaining the goodwill of the citizens of its allies. Actions like this undermine that.
It is the old adage: if a nation always ignores its national interests it will cease to exists; but if a country always
Ignores its values for the national interests what was the point of having a country. In diplomacy and war there must be a careful balance.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am curious to know what proportion of Israeli attitudes are reflected by the comments section on Jerusalem Post articles, which is where I've seen the most consistently hardline English-language takes on the conflict. E.g., on the ambulance bombing.
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good Lord but those are worse than I thought they could be
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2023
If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents.
I don't care if Osama bin Laden himself was reincarnated and hiding out in a tunnel underneath a hospital, bombing a hospital is not justified. If Israel wants to use proportionate force in a way that minimizes civilian casualties (i.e. boots on the ground), then I guess people can disagree about if this would be justified based on our broader beliefs about this war, but dropping bombs on hospitals with zero risk to your own side is abhorrent.
posted by ssg at 4:42 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't care if Osama bin Laden himself was reincarnated and hiding out in a tunnel underneath a hospital, bombing a hospital is not justified. If Israel wants to use proportionate force in a way that minimizes civilian casualties (i.e. boots on the ground), then I guess people can disagree about if this would be justified based on our broader beliefs about this war, but dropping bombs on hospitals with zero risk to your own side is abhorrent.
posted by ssg at 4:42 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
strike is considered legal
I don't care if it was allowable, I care that the people in charge thought it was in any way acceptable let alone advisable.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't care if it was allowable, I care that the people in charge thought it was in any way acceptable let alone advisable.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Good Lord but those are worse than I thought they could be
It's not completely surprising, given that the paper itself has an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews, but are instead people who "exploit and appropriate Jewish ritual items and texts, their Jewish names and backgrounds..."
I'm guessing that this is an extremely painful experience for people who are trying to do good things in the midst of all this horror.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's not completely surprising, given that the paper itself has an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews, but are instead people who "exploit and appropriate Jewish ritual items and texts, their Jewish names and backgrounds..."
I'm guessing that this is an extremely painful experience for people who are trying to do good things in the midst of all this horror.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The moral outrage generated among Israel’s allies by attacks like this are not going to be reduced by a legal analysis alone.
Agreed, Israel is pushing the limits of US government support to breaking point. Yet...
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel. It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way. Trump (or whoever the Republican party chooses) just goes full pro-Israel and their usual voters show up.
I would question at this point if the US government needs Israel more - or if Israel needs the US support more. It's no longer 1973. Israel exported $12.5 bil of arms in 2022 (Reuters), while only importing $3.2 bil from 2018-2022 (Al Jazeera). In the past, the US used the threat of withdrawing military arms as an existential threat to control Israel, but now, it might be Israel that is leading the US on a leash, because no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel.
CNBC's survey shows 39% say government policy should favor Israel, 6% say it should favor Palestinians, 36% say they should be treated the same, 19% are undecided. Joe Biden's approval is now at a historic 37% low and if they held an election right now Trump would probably win.
I'd view any statements or words from the US government more as a desperate attempt to stay in power rather than actually trying to figure out a good outcome for Palestinians or Israelis.
posted by xdvesper at 5:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agreed, Israel is pushing the limits of US government support to breaking point. Yet...
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel. It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way. Trump (or whoever the Republican party chooses) just goes full pro-Israel and their usual voters show up.
I would question at this point if the US government needs Israel more - or if Israel needs the US support more. It's no longer 1973. Israel exported $12.5 bil of arms in 2022 (Reuters), while only importing $3.2 bil from 2018-2022 (Al Jazeera). In the past, the US used the threat of withdrawing military arms as an existential threat to control Israel, but now, it might be Israel that is leading the US on a leash, because no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel.
CNBC's survey shows 39% say government policy should favor Israel, 6% say it should favor Palestinians, 36% say they should be treated the same, 19% are undecided. Joe Biden's approval is now at a historic 37% low and if they held an election right now Trump would probably win.
I'd view any statements or words from the US government more as a desperate attempt to stay in power rather than actually trying to figure out a good outcome for Palestinians or Israelis.
posted by xdvesper at 5:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews
Identifying people who are against what looks a lot like indiscriminate slaughter as "pro-Hamas" is pretty appalling. The whole thing that's been happening of anathematising any expression of sympathy for the Palestinian people is very reminiscent of the anti-German hysteria in WWII, and it's leading to a lot of insane and illiberal proposals from lawmakers; there's a bill in the French Senate that would make "insulting the state of Israel" a criminal offence, and a Republican member of Congress wants to expel Palestinians from the country.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Identifying people who are against what looks a lot like indiscriminate slaughter as "pro-Hamas" is pretty appalling. The whole thing that's been happening of anathematising any expression of sympathy for the Palestinian people is very reminiscent of the anti-German hysteria in WWII, and it's leading to a lot of insane and illiberal proposals from lawmakers; there's a bill in the French Senate that would make "insulting the state of Israel" a criminal offence, and a Republican member of Congress wants to expel Palestinians from the country.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
absolutely insane how many people will defend bombing ambulances and hospitals. i’m out!
posted by dis_integration at 5:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 5:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel
I feel like that's no longer necessarily the case, at least for Democrats? A majority of voters under 50 in a recent poll oppose sending more arms to Israel, and Biden's support of Israel "with no red lines" looks like it's going to cost him Michigan next year (his support among Muslim voters has cratered).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like that's no longer necessarily the case, at least for Democrats? A majority of voters under 50 in a recent poll oppose sending more arms to Israel, and Biden's support of Israel "with no red lines" looks like it's going to cost him Michigan next year (his support among Muslim voters has cratered).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way.
A couple weeks ago, 2/3 of US voters supported a ceasefire (with 10% saying they don't know, so only 25% opposed), including 80% of Democrats. I imagine those numbers are even higher now. There's really nothing stopping Biden from at least calling for a ceasefire and the reason he isn't doing so has little to do with US public opinion.
posted by ssg at 5:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
A couple weeks ago, 2/3 of US voters supported a ceasefire (with 10% saying they don't know, so only 25% opposed), including 80% of Democrats. I imagine those numbers are even higher now. There's really nothing stopping Biden from at least calling for a ceasefire and the reason he isn't doing so has little to do with US public opinion.
posted by ssg at 5:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am curious to know what proportion of Israeli attitudes are reflected by the comments section on Jerusalem Post articles
I don't know the answer, but I very strongly suspect that anyone commenting there is highly unlikely to be Israeli. The Jerusalem Post is an English language newspaper, right-wing, and its primary audience is the diaspora. Israel Hayom, Yedioth Ahronoth, and Ha'aretz are the newspapers with the highest readership in Israel. Ha'aretz is considered the paper of record but has much lower circulation than the other two. I don't think reading the comment sections of those is a very good use of time either, especially in English, which is not the primary language of most Israelis, but that's up to you.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know the answer, but I very strongly suspect that anyone commenting there is highly unlikely to be Israeli. The Jerusalem Post is an English language newspaper, right-wing, and its primary audience is the diaspora. Israel Hayom, Yedioth Ahronoth, and Ha'aretz are the newspapers with the highest readership in Israel. Ha'aretz is considered the paper of record but has much lower circulation than the other two. I don't think reading the comment sections of those is a very good use of time either, especially in English, which is not the primary language of most Israelis, but that's up to you.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel
Better for Netanyahu. Not better for Israel. Or anyone else, outside his coalition of enablers.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Better for Netanyahu. Not better for Israel. Or anyone else, outside his coalition of enablers.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ah, so that's what a "humanitarian pause" means: Blinken tells Israelis humanitarian pause will buy Israel time for Gaza operation
Blinken's message, according to one U.S. and two Israeli officials, was: "We don't want to stop you, but help us help you get more time."posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Excellent interview / profile of David Meidan Israel’s most seasoned hostage negotiator in the Economist.. One of the things that the article seems to reveal is just how little Israel and Hamas talk. The Israeli’s don’t even know who to talk to in order to get what they want. Neither does Hamas. It’s just a lot of posturing and press conferences full of demands.
posted by interogative mood at 6:47 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:47 PM on November 3, 2023
It f you think Donald Trump will be better for Netanyahu then think again. Donald Trump is a vindictive narcissist who only cares about Donald Trump. He isn’t going to forgive Netanyahu for giving Biden that hug and praise.
posted by interogative mood at 6:55 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:55 PM on November 3, 2023
You must be kidding me. They are both infinitely more instrumental than that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
(And, what’s a hug compared to a subway station in the new capital? Bigly.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on November 3, 2023
Ah, so that's what a "humanitarian pause" means: Blinken tells Israelis humanitarian pause will buy Israel time for Gaza operation
A lot of countries seem to be pussyfooting around Israel for whatever reasons. So as a diplomat, he may have to couch diplomatic advice in a way that appears to flatter/benefit its intended recipient, while actually intending to grant some small mercy to those civilians currently being slaughtered.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
A lot of countries seem to be pussyfooting around Israel for whatever reasons. So as a diplomat, he may have to couch diplomatic advice in a way that appears to flatter/benefit its intended recipient, while actually intending to grant some small mercy to those civilians currently being slaughtered.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Let's recall Israel's track record on telling the truth (e.g. re the murder of the Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh) when citing their justifications for bombing hospitals.
The Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who has been active in Gaza for more than 40 years, recently stated:
I will ask President Netanyahu to put on the table the proofs and the evidence that there is a control and command center for the Palestinian resistance in Shifa Hospital. We have heard these claims since 2009. We have twice been threatened to leave Shifa Hospital, in 2009 and 2014, because the Israelis were going to bomb it because it was a command center. Now, I have been working in Shifa for 16 years, 16 years on and off, in very hectic periods, very hectic periods. I’ve been able to walk freely around. I take lots of pictures. I video, film. I’ve been sleeping in the hospital during bombardment. I’ve been all over. I’ve never been restricted, controlled. Nobody has ever controlled my picture and documentation material. So, well, if there is a command center, show us. You have pictures and X-ray films of all Gaza, all the tunnels, everything. So, why is it that these 16 years of threats that Shifa is a command center has not been given any evidence at all that it de facto is? Now, if it was a military command center, I would not work there, because I obey to the Geneva Convention, number one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who has been active in Gaza for more than 40 years, recently stated:
I will ask President Netanyahu to put on the table the proofs and the evidence that there is a control and command center for the Palestinian resistance in Shifa Hospital. We have heard these claims since 2009. We have twice been threatened to leave Shifa Hospital, in 2009 and 2014, because the Israelis were going to bomb it because it was a command center. Now, I have been working in Shifa for 16 years, 16 years on and off, in very hectic periods, very hectic periods. I’ve been able to walk freely around. I take lots of pictures. I video, film. I’ve been sleeping in the hospital during bombardment. I’ve been all over. I’ve never been restricted, controlled. Nobody has ever controlled my picture and documentation material. So, well, if there is a command center, show us. You have pictures and X-ray films of all Gaza, all the tunnels, everything. So, why is it that these 16 years of threats that Shifa is a command center has not been given any evidence at all that it de facto is? Now, if it was a military command center, I would not work there, because I obey to the Geneva Convention, number one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
That's just some random doctor though, as evidence it's no more convincing either way than some random doctor claiming that Ivermectin is an amazing cure-all based on a sample of his patients getting better.
The Guardian (as left leaning a news organization as you can find) states that Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
posted by xdvesper at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Guardian (as left leaning a news organization as you can find) states that Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
posted by xdvesper at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
"as left leaning a news organization as you can find"
posted by sagc at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Senior Hamas leaders can go inside the hospital during non-war time — they can’t setup a command post though. The hospitals also have guards who are armed — Gaza is not free of crime and drug users. So it wouldn’t shock me if reporters saw armed men in 2014 and they could have been militants, guards, or police.
If there is a tunnel complex / bunker under Al Shiffa Israel or other hospitals then Israel is going to have to find another way to deal with it than bombing. They are also going to need to provide substantially more evidence.
posted by interogative mood at 8:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there is a tunnel complex / bunker under Al Shiffa Israel or other hospitals then Israel is going to have to find another way to deal with it than bombing. They are also going to need to provide substantially more evidence.
posted by interogative mood at 8:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
just some random doctor
"Just some random doctor" who has spent decades working in Gaza and has been able to freely walk around photographing and filming in the hospital wherever he wanted without any restrictions. "Just some random doctor" who takes his responsibilities under IHL seriously and would not work in a military command center.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Just some random doctor" who has spent decades working in Gaza and has been able to freely walk around photographing and filming in the hospital wherever he wanted without any restrictions. "Just some random doctor" who takes his responsibilities under IHL seriously and would not work in a military command center.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Bombing or attacking medical facilities or vehicles demands higher than average evidence.
On preview: removed a bunch of my own sadness spewed into words. instead here are some links instead of me adding to the convo about whether bombing a hospital is justified:
Ta-Nehisi Coates interview (has a transcript). It’s very thoughtful.
Adam Serwer on Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
(apologies if either are repeats. I don’t recall seeing them but don’t open every link. also I imagine other folks miss them in the back and forth. I imagine many of us should be doing more reading than talking.)
posted by R343L at 9:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
On preview: removed a bunch of my own sadness spewed into words. instead here are some links instead of me adding to the convo about whether bombing a hospital is justified:
Ta-Nehisi Coates interview (has a transcript). It’s very thoughtful.
Adam Serwer on Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
(apologies if either are repeats. I don’t recall seeing them but don’t open every link. also I imagine other folks miss them in the back and forth. I imagine many of us should be doing more reading than talking.)
posted by R343L at 9:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know why anyone would spend time evaluating the legal case for bombing the hospital.
Israel's evidence for there being a Hamas command post under the hospital was a cheap CGI video that was so bad that it was comparable to the universally mocked "Bin Laden Mountain Fortress" graphic that attempted to justify the US invasion of Afghanistan.
The Israeli government aren't making a serious case for bombing the hospital because they don't respect international law and don't think that they'll ever be held to account for the crimes against humanity that they are committing right now.
posted by zymil at 9:40 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
Israel's evidence for there being a Hamas command post under the hospital was a cheap CGI video that was so bad that it was comparable to the universally mocked "Bin Laden Mountain Fortress" graphic that attempted to justify the US invasion of Afghanistan.
The Israeli government aren't making a serious case for bombing the hospital because they don't respect international law and don't think that they'll ever be held to account for the crimes against humanity that they are committing right now.
posted by zymil at 9:40 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
New York Times Writer Resigns After Signing Letter Protesting the Israel-Gaza War
posted by Artw at 10:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Nathan J. Robinson: What Every American Should Know About Gaza (Current Affairs):
As Americans, we have a responsibility to try to change our government’s actions. We cannot look away from the suffering of the people of Gaza, because we are in part responsible for it. Our government has thwarted peace in Palestine for many decades by supporting Israel’s continuing project of dispossessing Palestinians. Our government continues to aid Israel even as virtually the entire international community recoils in horror at the effects of Israel’s bombing campaign. Our job, right now, is to push for a complete cessation of hostilities and an internationally-brokered settlement to the conflict.posted by kmt at 11:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
That was a thorough, long and well written, kmt. He has a certain point of view, but that's his job to argue it as a columnist.
I do think the conclusion that the "US being responsible" / "Our Obligations" is missing the forest for the trees. I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years, and that things would be much worse if the US were pull out of the region, or if they were to make demands that Israel found unacceptable and led to Israel simply cutting ties with them. The US spends $4 billion per year in aid to Israel and arguably it's the best bang for buck in terms of geopolitical leverage in any region you can buy. I'll point to several examples -
1973, Israel could have sacked Cairo (they had 3 armored divisions within striking distance and no opposition between them). Israel could have annihilated at least half of Egypt's army as well after trapping them on the wrong side of the Suez. The US alone was able to sternly tell Israel, no, you don't get to do that, because We Have Longer Term Plans for the region that are more important than your need for revenge, we need Egypt intact and whole and we need the Arabs unbloodied and in the mood to write a peace agreement.
In 1982 the US brokered a ceasefire between the PLO and Israel and created the Multinational Force in Lebanon, ending the 1982 Lebanon War.
Of the Iron Dome systems in Israel, only the first two in 2011 were funded by Israel - to protect their critical military installations. The remaining 8 Iron Dome systems at the time, protecting civilians, were actually funded by the US.
The US pursues a geopolitical strategy of preserving stability and status quo in the Middle East. It uses Israel as one of their tools to achieve this, just one among many proxy states. The US would rather spend billions intercepting rockets from Gaza rather than have Israel retaliate with bombs, because if the optics of dead children becomes too bad, the US will be forced to sever and disclaim their ties with Israel, thus losing one of their strongest tools in the Middle East. If Israel were taking heavy casualties from every Hamas rocket, they would have levelled Gaza 10 years ago. Were those billions well spent? I'd be hard pressed to disagree.
I'm certain that if Israel were to be isolated as a state and abandoned by the US, this would lead to something like the Yemeni civil war (377,000 dead) or Tigray war (up to 600,000 dead) or the conflicts in Sudan (400,000 dead) or Nigeria (350,000 dead) - all cases where it simply becomes, Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys, we stay out of it, after the events in Somalia drove an extreme reluctance to risk American soldier's lives to settle wars in other countries not directly related to US interests.
Yes, the US can pressure Israel to limit the scope of its military operations, but the US can't apply leverage it simply doesn't have. The US could halt all military aid tomorrow and then Israel would simply triple the pace of the attack, now free from US pressure. You might as well have the US send strongly worded letters at Russia asking it to stop invading Ukraine. And then what, give some HIMARS and ATACMs to Hamas like how it opposes Russia? It looks like the US has already stretched its leverage to the maximum extent possible.
The US has already applied direct pressure to force Israel to reopen the water pipes and restore the internet. These crucial wins would not have been possible if the US was directly antagonistic towards Israel. I think the best path forward is already the narrow one the US is threading - using what limited leverage it has to get whatever wins it can get.
posted by xdvesper at 2:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do think the conclusion that the "US being responsible" / "Our Obligations" is missing the forest for the trees. I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years, and that things would be much worse if the US were pull out of the region, or if they were to make demands that Israel found unacceptable and led to Israel simply cutting ties with them. The US spends $4 billion per year in aid to Israel and arguably it's the best bang for buck in terms of geopolitical leverage in any region you can buy. I'll point to several examples -
1973, Israel could have sacked Cairo (they had 3 armored divisions within striking distance and no opposition between them). Israel could have annihilated at least half of Egypt's army as well after trapping them on the wrong side of the Suez. The US alone was able to sternly tell Israel, no, you don't get to do that, because We Have Longer Term Plans for the region that are more important than your need for revenge, we need Egypt intact and whole and we need the Arabs unbloodied and in the mood to write a peace agreement.
In 1982 the US brokered a ceasefire between the PLO and Israel and created the Multinational Force in Lebanon, ending the 1982 Lebanon War.
Of the Iron Dome systems in Israel, only the first two in 2011 were funded by Israel - to protect their critical military installations. The remaining 8 Iron Dome systems at the time, protecting civilians, were actually funded by the US.
The US pursues a geopolitical strategy of preserving stability and status quo in the Middle East. It uses Israel as one of their tools to achieve this, just one among many proxy states. The US would rather spend billions intercepting rockets from Gaza rather than have Israel retaliate with bombs, because if the optics of dead children becomes too bad, the US will be forced to sever and disclaim their ties with Israel, thus losing one of their strongest tools in the Middle East. If Israel were taking heavy casualties from every Hamas rocket, they would have levelled Gaza 10 years ago. Were those billions well spent? I'd be hard pressed to disagree.
I'm certain that if Israel were to be isolated as a state and abandoned by the US, this would lead to something like the Yemeni civil war (377,000 dead) or Tigray war (up to 600,000 dead) or the conflicts in Sudan (400,000 dead) or Nigeria (350,000 dead) - all cases where it simply becomes, Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys, we stay out of it, after the events in Somalia drove an extreme reluctance to risk American soldier's lives to settle wars in other countries not directly related to US interests.
Yes, the US can pressure Israel to limit the scope of its military operations, but the US can't apply leverage it simply doesn't have. The US could halt all military aid tomorrow and then Israel would simply triple the pace of the attack, now free from US pressure. You might as well have the US send strongly worded letters at Russia asking it to stop invading Ukraine. And then what, give some HIMARS and ATACMs to Hamas like how it opposes Russia? It looks like the US has already stretched its leverage to the maximum extent possible.
The US has already applied direct pressure to force Israel to reopen the water pipes and restore the internet. These crucial wins would not have been possible if the US was directly antagonistic towards Israel. I think the best path forward is already the narrow one the US is threading - using what limited leverage it has to get whatever wins it can get.
posted by xdvesper at 2:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do agree with the counterbalance role the US is playing, AND that's why the civilian pressure is playing such a critical role right now because the US needs that evidence to show their stakes too. I'd rather Biden be hit with a reputation blowback if this can be parlayed strategically - but I'm not saying this to excuse or to reassure people to wait and see because I don't know any more than any one (because it remains to be seen if strategic commitment will for once trumps public demonstrations). Regardless the historical evidence of what comes after - Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan - arguably the fact we're talking about still functioning nation-states 'left behind' might be a crucial difference here, e.g. Vietnam. But those are just my layperson's conclusions.
posted by cendawanita at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
New York Times Writer Resigns After Signing Letter Protesting the Israel-Gaza War
archive.org link
This is the petition J. Hughes signed (and resigned for): WritersAgainstTheWarOnGaza.
posted by progosk at 4:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
archive.org link
This is the petition J. Hughes signed (and resigned for): WritersAgainstTheWarOnGaza.
posted by progosk at 4:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Excellent interview / profile of David Meidan Israel’s most seasoned hostage negotiator in the Economist.
What a catastrophic, shameful — and entirely foreseeable — act of national self-harm Meidan and Netanyahu's 2011 deal has proved. His deal freed Yayha Sinwar, who went on to plan the October 7 attacks. 1,026 further convicted prisoners were freed. 280 were murderers, including child-killers. Dozens went straight back to planning terror attacks. Hamas boasted that, by taking one Israeli hostage, it had secured the release of the killers of 569 Israeli civilians.
Reward hostage-taking, get more hostage-taking. "Once you have paid him the Dane-geld / You never get rid of the Dane"
posted by Klipspringer at 4:55 AM on November 4, 2023
What a catastrophic, shameful — and entirely foreseeable — act of national self-harm Meidan and Netanyahu's 2011 deal has proved. His deal freed Yayha Sinwar, who went on to plan the October 7 attacks. 1,026 further convicted prisoners were freed. 280 were murderers, including child-killers. Dozens went straight back to planning terror attacks. Hamas boasted that, by taking one Israeli hostage, it had secured the release of the killers of 569 Israeli civilians.
Reward hostage-taking, get more hostage-taking. "Once you have paid him the Dane-geld / You never get rid of the Dane"
posted by Klipspringer at 4:55 AM on November 4, 2023
I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends, actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood, hezbollah and yes hamas. our devastation of iraq directly caused the syrian civil war and made the iranians far more powerful than they would have been before. im only mentioning the things here that i can think of off the top of my head. we broke the middle eastern world with blunder after blunder and just about every bit of instability there is because we bombed the foundations to hell.
posted by dis_integration at 5:39 AM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends, actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood, hezbollah and yes hamas. our devastation of iraq directly caused the syrian civil war and made the iranians far more powerful than they would have been before. im only mentioning the things here that i can think of off the top of my head. we broke the middle eastern world with blunder after blunder and just about every bit of instability there is because we bombed the foundations to hell.
posted by dis_integration at 5:39 AM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
Yeah, the US repeatedly invades the Middle East and surrounding areas unprovoked and just generally does what they’ve done in Central America and Asia. I think the US is a less harmful actor than say Iran, but I question why the US has any bases in that region at all, and why we send arms to anyone. It’s not our business. We already have the UN and various coalitions if a joint resolution is needed to deescalate a war or stop a genocide.
The examples of positive outcomes listed above are real, but I don’t think I agree that they demonstrate some sort of benevolent overall intent. Not only that, but I don’t buy that constant escalation of problems with guns and belligerence is the way to perform statecraft. It’s what we do because we have testosterone- and “honor” driven decision making, and because we have an outsize view of our own importance. Israel , the US, and some of the Muslim actors all have the false idea that their people, religion, or nation have some sort of glorious destiny they must fulfill.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The examples of positive outcomes listed above are real, but I don’t think I agree that they demonstrate some sort of benevolent overall intent. Not only that, but I don’t buy that constant escalation of problems with guns and belligerence is the way to perform statecraft. It’s what we do because we have testosterone- and “honor” driven decision making, and because we have an outsize view of our own importance. Israel , the US, and some of the Muslim actors all have the false idea that their people, religion, or nation have some sort of glorious destiny they must fulfill.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
xdvesper I think most of the people objecting to the bombing of a hospital, and the bombing of ambulances fleeing the hospital, don't particularly care if there actually were Hamas leaders there or not.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
No, I don't care if bombing this hospital is allowed under the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong.
No, I don't care if Israel really, really, super duper, thinks there's totally Hamas people there. It's still wrong.
And that's got nothing to do with the broader question of whether the IDF should be in Gaza or not, or whether I think anything else at all Israel is doing now or has ever done is justified.
I don't care if Adolph Hitler himself is there. It's still wrong.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
We're back, yet again, at that core of all moral questions: are you going to do what is easy, or what is right?
Evil is easy. Evil feels good. Evil is a rush of hot power that wipes away all those pesky moral questions and makes you feel strong and invincible.
Good sucks. Good means doing things the difficult and expensive way. Good means feeling bad. Good means not getting to prove how super cool and powerful your latest weapon is. Good makes you feel weak and doubt your own convictions and beliefs.
And the fact that doing things right, doing good, means things cost more is, IMO, one of the principle benefits of good. When it costs more you have to ask if the objective is really worth the high price and effort it takes to do good, while the evil action makes the objective cheap and easy.
If Israel had really been committed to doing what is right, Israel would have needed to evaluate the question of whether or not attacking and possibly killing/capturing the Hamas elements they believed were in the hospital would have been worth the cost, the effort, the sacrifice, the maddening difficulty and frustrating delay, it would have taken to send in a big enough group of special forces types to go in and kill/capture the Hamas elements without blowing up the hospital or any ambulances. It would have required accepting the possibility of failure because of the inherent difficulty and delay.
Because good sucks.
We saw the same thing with the US and its decision to have the CIA murder US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki. The US chose the evil, easy, cheap, chest pounding, cool looking, show off their new tech, strut around and feel badass, approach. And they did it because the other way would have been difficult, expensive, and risky. But the other way was the only good way, and the way America did it was evil.
Good sucks. Evil is easy and it doesn't matter if that evil is legal or not, it's still evil.
But bombing hospitals is still, and always, wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
No, I don't care if bombing this hospital is allowed under the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong.
No, I don't care if Israel really, really, super duper, thinks there's totally Hamas people there. It's still wrong.
And that's got nothing to do with the broader question of whether the IDF should be in Gaza or not, or whether I think anything else at all Israel is doing now or has ever done is justified.
I don't care if Adolph Hitler himself is there. It's still wrong.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
We're back, yet again, at that core of all moral questions: are you going to do what is easy, or what is right?
Evil is easy. Evil feels good. Evil is a rush of hot power that wipes away all those pesky moral questions and makes you feel strong and invincible.
Good sucks. Good means doing things the difficult and expensive way. Good means feeling bad. Good means not getting to prove how super cool and powerful your latest weapon is. Good makes you feel weak and doubt your own convictions and beliefs.
And the fact that doing things right, doing good, means things cost more is, IMO, one of the principle benefits of good. When it costs more you have to ask if the objective is really worth the high price and effort it takes to do good, while the evil action makes the objective cheap and easy.
If Israel had really been committed to doing what is right, Israel would have needed to evaluate the question of whether or not attacking and possibly killing/capturing the Hamas elements they believed were in the hospital would have been worth the cost, the effort, the sacrifice, the maddening difficulty and frustrating delay, it would have taken to send in a big enough group of special forces types to go in and kill/capture the Hamas elements without blowing up the hospital or any ambulances. It would have required accepting the possibility of failure because of the inherent difficulty and delay.
Because good sucks.
We saw the same thing with the US and its decision to have the CIA murder US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki. The US chose the evil, easy, cheap, chest pounding, cool looking, show off their new tech, strut around and feel badass, approach. And they did it because the other way would have been difficult, expensive, and risky. But the other way was the only good way, and the way America did it was evil.
Good sucks. Evil is easy and it doesn't matter if that evil is legal or not, it's still evil.
But bombing hospitals is still, and always, wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Hit-and-run injures [Stanford University] Arab Muslim student, incident under investigation as hate crime
The victim, who was a pedestrian, is now receiving care for non-life threatening injuries, according to a Friday email from President Richard Saller and Provost Jenny Martinez. According to the report, the driver “made eye contact with the victim, accelerated and struck the victim, and then drove away while shouting ‘f*** you people.'”posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:11 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israeli Strike on UNRWA School Kills 20, Including Children (also covered in WaPo; paywalled)
At least 20 people were killed and 70 were injured in an Israeli strike on the UN-run al-Fakhoura school in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday, 4 November, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said.
Initial reports indicate at least 20 people were killed, including children, and many dozens injured, director of communications at the UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) Juliette Touma told BBC.
“At least one strike hit the schoolyard where there were tents for displaced families. Another strike hit inside the school where women were baking bread,” Touma told Reuters.
At the time of writing, the Israeli army has not issued an official statement.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:21 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
At least 20 people were killed and 70 were injured in an Israeli strike on the UN-run al-Fakhoura school in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday, 4 November, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said.
Initial reports indicate at least 20 people were killed, including children, and many dozens injured, director of communications at the UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) Juliette Touma told BBC.
“At least one strike hit the schoolyard where there were tents for displaced families. Another strike hit inside the school where women were baking bread,” Touma told Reuters.
At the time of writing, the Israeli army has not issued an official statement.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:21 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years
No question the US has had massive influence in the middle east. But there's a difference between stabilizing and suppression. Insofar as Iron Dome helped freeze the lopsided status quo, yet didn't prevent Oct 7... in the final analysis, it's a fail, no?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:31 AM on November 4, 2023
No question the US has had massive influence in the middle east. But there's a difference between stabilizing and suppression. Insofar as Iron Dome helped freeze the lopsided status quo, yet didn't prevent Oct 7... in the final analysis, it's a fail, no?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:31 AM on November 4, 2023
Statements like "never negotiate with hostage takers/ terrorists" sound tough but don't work in the real world with real people and their lives are on the line. If you won't negotiate for one hostage, then the kidnappers will often take more hostages. If you want to resolve these kinds of kidnapping actions you have to address the root cause. It is part of the larger, unresolved conflict. Until you resolve that kidnaping and other violence will continue.
posted by interogative mood at 10:05 AM on November 4, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 10:05 AM on November 4, 2023
Huge demonstration in Paris*
Tokyo
Glasgow
"Central London has been blocked by protestors for half an hour now and this is just one of dozens of protests happening just in London."
Charing Cross station has also been shut down
etc.
*relevant context for Paris, from Radio France
posted by mediareport at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tokyo
Glasgow
"Central London has been blocked by protestors for half an hour now and this is just one of dozens of protests happening just in London."
Charing Cross station has also been shut down
etc.
*relevant context for Paris, from Radio France
posted by mediareport at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
BreakThrough News (YouTube): Free Palestine! National March on Washington Live Coverage
posted by cashman at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cashman at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would recommend Ezra Klein's interview with Amaney Jamal. [archive link]
Thanks, kensington314; that is great - full of insight and nuance from Jamal, who's Dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs and one of the leaders of the Arab Barometer Project, whose polling has been discussed above and in the other recent P/I thread. Their most recent poll was actually wrapping up on October 6th. The transcript is worth a read; it has lots of good back and forth with Klein questioning her, with interesting bits like this:
AMANEY JAMAL: So and we have evidence of that a little bit, Ezra, in this poll, which is that the poor folks, the really disadvantaged people in Gaza, were most critical of Hamas. So it does lead us to believe that there is this middle class group of individuals that benefits from close ties with Hamas, and they are invested in seeing that government stay in power. But we see that across the Arab world as well. Ironically, the middle class, which is often sort of seen as the champion of democratization or democratic movements, what we find is that this aspiring class of citizens who believe that, OK, there’s some aura of economic stability. Therefore, I am not going to rock the boat.
So, on the surface, they’re not staunch supporters of authoritarianism or for Hamas or for terrorism. They just find it very beneficial to support a status quo government that is OK for their economic livelihood. These are the people who sort of will turn a blind eye to the excesses of these regimes, as long as their economic conditions are met. It’s really the poor, disadvantaged citizens across these societies that end up having to bear the brunt of public mismanagement and of a government that is not representing their interests.
At the end she recommends 3 books.
posted by mediareport at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thanks, kensington314; that is great - full of insight and nuance from Jamal, who's Dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs and one of the leaders of the Arab Barometer Project, whose polling has been discussed above and in the other recent P/I thread. Their most recent poll was actually wrapping up on October 6th. The transcript is worth a read; it has lots of good back and forth with Klein questioning her, with interesting bits like this:
AMANEY JAMAL: So and we have evidence of that a little bit, Ezra, in this poll, which is that the poor folks, the really disadvantaged people in Gaza, were most critical of Hamas. So it does lead us to believe that there is this middle class group of individuals that benefits from close ties with Hamas, and they are invested in seeing that government stay in power. But we see that across the Arab world as well. Ironically, the middle class, which is often sort of seen as the champion of democratization or democratic movements, what we find is that this aspiring class of citizens who believe that, OK, there’s some aura of economic stability. Therefore, I am not going to rock the boat.
So, on the surface, they’re not staunch supporters of authoritarianism or for Hamas or for terrorism. They just find it very beneficial to support a status quo government that is OK for their economic livelihood. These are the people who sort of will turn a blind eye to the excesses of these regimes, as long as their economic conditions are met. It’s really the poor, disadvantaged citizens across these societies that end up having to bear the brunt of public mismanagement and of a government that is not representing their interests.
At the end she recommends 3 books.
posted by mediareport at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
A short summary of the specific stricture that Germany finds itself in, regarding discussions of the horrific current events in Israel and Gaza: J. Kampfner, Germany’s bond with Israel has been admirable – but it is becoming a straitjacket.
The article references an odd singling out of the local branch of the Fridays For Future movement who, after the bizarre interlude about an octopus plushie in a social media post of solidarity with Palestinians by Greta Thunberg, the principal German media baron (M. Döpfer of Springer Verlag) called out the movement for a further post authored by the FFF MostAffectedPeopleandAreas branch. This caused the German FFF branch to post a separate, and dissenting position, something which was then picked up and lauded in an unusual public video issued by the Vice-Chancellor Habeck (of the Greens Party), in which he admonished against slippery-slope arguments that would question or "relativize" German support of Israel, cited as a German "Staatsräson"...
posted by progosk at 11:22 AM on November 4, 2023
The article references an odd singling out of the local branch of the Fridays For Future movement who, after the bizarre interlude about an octopus plushie in a social media post of solidarity with Palestinians by Greta Thunberg, the principal German media baron (M. Döpfer of Springer Verlag) called out the movement for a further post authored by the FFF MostAffectedPeopleandAreas branch. This caused the German FFF branch to post a separate, and dissenting position, something which was then picked up and lauded in an unusual public video issued by the Vice-Chancellor Habeck (of the Greens Party), in which he admonished against slippery-slope arguments that would question or "relativize" German support of Israel, cited as a German "Staatsräson"...
posted by progosk at 11:22 AM on November 4, 2023
Here is more on the recommended books from the Klein/Jamal interview:
The One State Reality [in the form of a Foreign Affairs precis by the authors]
Arabs and Israelis: Conflict and peacemaking in the Middle East (Amazon)
A History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (Amazon, here's JSTOR)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2023
The One State Reality [in the form of a Foreign Affairs precis by the authors]
Arabs and Israelis: Conflict and peacemaking in the Middle East (Amazon)
A History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (Amazon, here's JSTOR)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2023
Meanwhile the ex-director general of Israel's ministry of strategic affairs is calling for ethnic cleansing of Gaza via mass population transfer.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
This does seem to be the beginning of a sea change in how the west approaches this conflict. Netanyahu has managed to take the outpouring of goodwill following October 7th and through the brutality of the response completely obliterate it. It’s frustrating to watch,
posted by interogative mood at 12:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
"actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood"
Muslim brotherhood was founded in 1928 pray tell what did Calvin Coolidge do to Egypt in order to form this vanguard movement.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Muslim brotherhood was founded in 1928 pray tell what did Calvin Coolidge do to Egypt in order to form this vanguard movement.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean I don't know the history very well but I believe the Muslim Brotherhood was at least partly a reaction to the British Empire, which is at least coterminous if not identical with the modern American influence in the region. Can't blame it on Coolidge but that's only because the US hadn't inherited the British Empire's global reach yet.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pack with the Nazis.
'The Secretary of State to the Chargé in Great Britain (Atherton)
Washington, June 9, 1928.'
Text is about the Kellogg-Briand pact.
A pact that, believe it or not, was trying to outlaw War.
Secretary Atherton:"I replied that the trouble about that was if each country began tacking on to this treaty [Page 81]understandings which would be in the form of reservations or provisos or stipulations as to what it means, each country might have a different construction and different reservations and provisos and that in the end there might be so many that the treaty would be a joke." (ibid)
"Whereas it is provided in the Act of Congress approved May 26, 1924, entitled “An Act to limit the immigration of aliens into the United States, and for other purposes” that –
1. (a) Persons born in the portions of Persia, Russia, or the Arabian peninsula situated within the Barred Zone, and who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quotas of these countries; and (b) persons born in the colonies, dependencies, or protectorates, or portions thereof, within the Barred Zone, of France, Great Britain, the Netherlands, or Portugal, who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quota of the country to which such colony or dependency belongs or by which it is administered as a protectorate.'
so, what, forget the facts and hang on coterminous naval gazing down the chronological road of simulacrum?
posted by clavdivs at 3:35 PM on November 4, 2023
'The Secretary of State to the Chargé in Great Britain (Atherton)
Washington, June 9, 1928.'
Text is about the Kellogg-Briand pact.
A pact that, believe it or not, was trying to outlaw War.
Secretary Atherton:"I replied that the trouble about that was if each country began tacking on to this treaty [Page 81]understandings which would be in the form of reservations or provisos or stipulations as to what it means, each country might have a different construction and different reservations and provisos and that in the end there might be so many that the treaty would be a joke." (ibid)
"Whereas it is provided in the Act of Congress approved May 26, 1924, entitled “An Act to limit the immigration of aliens into the United States, and for other purposes” that –
1. (a) Persons born in the portions of Persia, Russia, or the Arabian peninsula situated within the Barred Zone, and who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quotas of these countries; and (b) persons born in the colonies, dependencies, or protectorates, or portions thereof, within the Barred Zone, of France, Great Britain, the Netherlands, or Portugal, who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quota of the country to which such colony or dependency belongs or by which it is administered as a protectorate.'
so, what, forget the facts and hang on coterminous naval gazing down the chronological road of simulacrum?
posted by clavdivs at 3:35 PM on November 4, 2023
I mean I don't know the history very well but I believe the Muslim Brotherhood was at least partly a reaction to the British Empire
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pact with the Nazis
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's? The French? Sweden? If you see the British Empire as an enemy then an alliance with their enemies is an alliance of convenience; not much different than the USA and Britain allying with Stalin.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pact with the Nazis
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's? The French? Sweden? If you see the British Empire as an enemy then an alliance with their enemies is an alliance of convenience; not much different than the USA and Britain allying with Stalin.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends
Believe it or not, this is actually what preserving stability looks like. If the US can get you play nice with your neighbours (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan) they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice - like Iraq conquering Kuwait with the 4th largest army in the world, and with Saudi Arabia next in line, then they will fuck you up to the point you aren't a regional power anymore, permanently, because the alternative is even more destabilizing, a warlord rampaging though the region.
At least one reason for the Iran coup
was that Mossaddeq was moving towards the left, and also coming under pressure from the Tudeq communist party. It wasn't a choice between remaining a democracy or turning into an American puppet, there were genuine fears they would join the communists, with outcomes that really aren't great for anyone inside or outside the country.
In Libya, they were certainly a destabilizing force - 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing, 1988 Lockerbie bombing. The Gulf of Sidra incidents where they tried to claim it as their teritorial waters with a "line of death" - part of the global status quo the US is enforcing freedom of navigation in international waters to ensure international trade remains open, they do the same thing off the coast of China.
I'm not saying the US is doing this for any benevolent reason. It's all self interest - much of the wealth of the US and Europe depends on stability and international trade. Far better for Iraq to be permanently crippled than for it to conquer Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, and who knows what else along the way. The counter examples are regions which the US does not see as important to stabilize - Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, versus the countries which the US have explicitly chosen to help stabilize like Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.
Like imagine a counter factual where the US does not intervene when Iraq invades Kuwait, or worse, chooses to support Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, both options would leave the region in a much worse state.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Believe it or not, this is actually what preserving stability looks like. If the US can get you play nice with your neighbours (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan) they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice - like Iraq conquering Kuwait with the 4th largest army in the world, and with Saudi Arabia next in line, then they will fuck you up to the point you aren't a regional power anymore, permanently, because the alternative is even more destabilizing, a warlord rampaging though the region.
At least one reason for the Iran coup
was that Mossaddeq was moving towards the left, and also coming under pressure from the Tudeq communist party. It wasn't a choice between remaining a democracy or turning into an American puppet, there were genuine fears they would join the communists, with outcomes that really aren't great for anyone inside or outside the country.
In Libya, they were certainly a destabilizing force - 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing, 1988 Lockerbie bombing. The Gulf of Sidra incidents where they tried to claim it as their teritorial waters with a "line of death" - part of the global status quo the US is enforcing freedom of navigation in international waters to ensure international trade remains open, they do the same thing off the coast of China.
I'm not saying the US is doing this for any benevolent reason. It's all self interest - much of the wealth of the US and Europe depends on stability and international trade. Far better for Iraq to be permanently crippled than for it to conquer Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, and who knows what else along the way. The counter examples are regions which the US does not see as important to stabilize - Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, versus the countries which the US have explicitly chosen to help stabilize like Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.
Like imagine a counter factual where the US does not intervene when Iraq invades Kuwait, or worse, chooses to support Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, both options would leave the region in a much worse state.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940'
The Germans.
"Except for the disastrous raid on Dieppe, all British battles with Vichy France were fought in the French colonial possessions: Dakar, the Middle East, Madagascar, North Africa."
"In the years preceding World War II the Muslim Brothers grew connections with Nazi Germany, maintained via the Deutsches Nachrichtenbüro in Cairo and the leader of the Palestinian revolt, Amin al-Husseini. Being interested in strengthening a militant anti-British organization, Germany may have funded the Brotherhood as early as 1934."
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 4, 2023
The Germans.
"Except for the disastrous raid on Dieppe, all British battles with Vichy France were fought in the French colonial possessions: Dakar, the Middle East, Madagascar, North Africa."
"In the years preceding World War II the Muslim Brothers grew connections with Nazi Germany, maintained via the Deutsches Nachrichtenbüro in Cairo and the leader of the Palestinian revolt, Amin al-Husseini. Being interested in strengthening a militant anti-British organization, Germany may have funded the Brotherhood as early as 1934."
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 4, 2023
they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice -
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home. For example: Blinken in Amman. "His talks in Jordan's capital with the officials, angry and deeply suspicious of Israel as it intensifies military operations, came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu snubbed Blinken's blunt warning that Israel risks losing any hope of an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians unless it eases the humanitarian crisis in Gaza."
qua, Nasrallah' tepid threats.
posted by clavdivs at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2023
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home. For example: Blinken in Amman. "His talks in Jordan's capital with the officials, angry and deeply suspicious of Israel as it intensifies military operations, came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu snubbed Blinken's blunt warning that Israel risks losing any hope of an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians unless it eases the humanitarian crisis in Gaza."
qua, Nasrallah' tepid threats.
posted by clavdivs at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2023
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's
I'll take "Iconic Tank Battles" for $200, Alex.
posted by clawsoon at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll take "Iconic Tank Battles" for $200, Alex.
posted by clawsoon at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties - The measures include using smaller bombs against Hamas, U.S. officials said.
“Please be less obvious you are making us look bad.”
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Please be less obvious you are making us look bad.”
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
This does seem to be the beginning of a sea change in how the west approaches this conflict. Netanyahu has managed to take the outpouring of goodwill following October 7th and through the brutality of the response completely obliterate it. It’s frustrating to watch,
You have to give the guy credit for that accomplishment in such a short timeframe. Look at how long even the imbecilic Bush took before starting to lose world sympathy after 9/11.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:03 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
You have to give the guy credit for that accomplishment in such a short timeframe. Look at how long even the imbecilic Bush took before starting to lose world sympathy after 9/11.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:03 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Germans
1) do you know what a rhetorical question is?
2) did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) do you know what a rhetorical question is?
2) did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even if Hamas was hiding out at schools, it does seem like Israel needs to answer for bombing schoolchildren, no?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I mean, that shouldn't be a controversial ask, no?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
//Up to 400,000 people remain along Gaza front after Israel rejects ‘pause’
posted by kensington314 at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2023
Protests in Israel target Netanyahu over release of captives (Al Jazeera)
Thousands of people have taken to the streets in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv over the government’s handling of the crisis.posted by hydropsyche at 6:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Police held back hundreds of protesters outside Netanyahu’s residence on Saturday. Waving blue and white Israeli flags, demonstrators chanted “Jail now!” as a crowd pushed through security barriers.
did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
I did. It's, it's backwatering. It's old, so old the enemy of my enemy... you see the United States doesn't seek friends, we have interests. If friendship is struck along the way then be it all the better. But I get it.
yes, just like how Stalin and Hitler had a pact called Molotov-Ribbentrop. Germany and Russia also had covert training programs allowing Germany to skirt Versailles treaty constraints.
"History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake."
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on November 4, 2023
I did. It's, it's backwatering. It's old, so old the enemy of my enemy... you see the United States doesn't seek friends, we have interests. If friendship is struck along the way then be it all the better. But I get it.
yes, just like how Stalin and Hitler had a pact called Molotov-Ribbentrop. Germany and Russia also had covert training programs allowing Germany to skirt Versailles treaty constraints.
"History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake."
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on November 4, 2023
and I'm yelling and being snide. I'm really pissed at the Israeli goverment and it's leaking over.
I personally cannot use the whole of History to somehow hash this out so I've decided to use the chronology starting from October 7th forward. This does not mean that history does not leak into that pivot point in chronology but this is the only way I can sanely gauge what's going on from afar because it's not really so much afar anymore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I personally cannot use the whole of History to somehow hash this out so I've decided to use the chronology starting from October 7th forward. This does not mean that history does not leak into that pivot point in chronology but this is the only way I can sanely gauge what's going on from afar because it's not really so much afar anymore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home.
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers, when it was much weaker and its opponents were much stronger, and with the US deliberately crippling the IDF tactics /strategy. They could see the enemy troop buildup on the border and wanted to perform a pre-emptive strike like in 1967 but the US forbade them by threatening to withold resupply after the war. They would have to win it entirely on their own, being surprise attacked with no support.
The US carriers are there now to moderate the IDF response in Gaza - giving them the time and space to perform a carefully planned bombing campaign and ground assault to "western" standards and minimize civilian loss of life without worrying about Hezbollah attacking their flanks.
If Israel were in a multi front battle for survival with Hezbollah (much stronger than Hamas) attacking from the east without the US carriers in the region to deter them, they would go into full war footing in an existential war for survival like 1973.
Rationally their first move would be to carpet bomb Gaza within the first week of the war to the point they no longer posed a threat, causing anywhere from 10x to 100x the current deaths, secured that border, then focused most of their ground forces on the much larger Hezbollah threat from Lebanon. They'd have a "bomb anything that moves" policy to halt the rockets coming from Gaza and Lebanon. They would then launch a similar war into Lebanon like in 2006 to eradicate Hezbollah where they fired 160,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 and air strikes against them and set the country back 20 years.
If the US had the carrier groups there in 1967 and 1973 with a commitment to protect Israel I'm fairly sure none of those wars would have happened, Israel would never have recaptured Jerusalem and West Bank which would continue existing till today as annexed Jordanian territory and they would all be Jordanian citizens. Gaza, would have continued existing as Egyptian territory with Hamas never having the chance to grow, with them being suppressed along with the Muslim Brotherhood.
posted by xdvesper at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers, when it was much weaker and its opponents were much stronger, and with the US deliberately crippling the IDF tactics /strategy. They could see the enemy troop buildup on the border and wanted to perform a pre-emptive strike like in 1967 but the US forbade them by threatening to withold resupply after the war. They would have to win it entirely on their own, being surprise attacked with no support.
The US carriers are there now to moderate the IDF response in Gaza - giving them the time and space to perform a carefully planned bombing campaign and ground assault to "western" standards and minimize civilian loss of life without worrying about Hezbollah attacking their flanks.
If Israel were in a multi front battle for survival with Hezbollah (much stronger than Hamas) attacking from the east without the US carriers in the region to deter them, they would go into full war footing in an existential war for survival like 1973.
Rationally their first move would be to carpet bomb Gaza within the first week of the war to the point they no longer posed a threat, causing anywhere from 10x to 100x the current deaths, secured that border, then focused most of their ground forces on the much larger Hezbollah threat from Lebanon. They'd have a "bomb anything that moves" policy to halt the rockets coming from Gaza and Lebanon. They would then launch a similar war into Lebanon like in 2006 to eradicate Hezbollah where they fired 160,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 and air strikes against them and set the country back 20 years.
If the US had the carrier groups there in 1967 and 1973 with a commitment to protect Israel I'm fairly sure none of those wars would have happened, Israel would never have recaptured Jerusalem and West Bank which would continue existing till today as annexed Jordanian territory and they would all be Jordanian citizens. Gaza, would have continued existing as Egyptian territory with Hamas never having the chance to grow, with them being suppressed along with the Muslim Brotherhood.
posted by xdvesper at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023
Today is the 28th anniversary of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin on November 4, 1995 by a right-wing fundamentalist Jewish extremist who hoped to derail the Oslo talks, which were moving a Palestinian state a few steps closer to reality. Here's a flashback to that time folks might find directly relevant now:
Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."
Today, that young man...is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.
That would be racist shithead Itamar Ben Gvir, of course. There's a screengrab of Ben Gvir holding Rabin's hood ornament at the link. He also, until 2019, kept a picture on his wall of the man who opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians worshiping in a mosque in 1994, slaughtering 29, including children, and wounding 125 more, in another attempt to sabotage the Oslo accords. I'm sure he's still Ben Gvir's hero.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu also has Rabin's blood on his hands, still, 28 years later, as noted above:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
Finally, there's also this bit from the CBC page:
Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords. Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.
Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.
Sigh. The violent fuckers always want, and benefit from, more violence.
A moment for Yitzhak.
posted by mediareport at 6:45 PM on November 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."
Today, that young man...is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.
That would be racist shithead Itamar Ben Gvir, of course. There's a screengrab of Ben Gvir holding Rabin's hood ornament at the link. He also, until 2019, kept a picture on his wall of the man who opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians worshiping in a mosque in 1994, slaughtering 29, including children, and wounding 125 more, in another attempt to sabotage the Oslo accords. I'm sure he's still Ben Gvir's hero.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu also has Rabin's blood on his hands, still, 28 years later, as noted above:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
Finally, there's also this bit from the CBC page:
Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords. Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.
Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.
Sigh. The violent fuckers always want, and benefit from, more violence.
A moment for Yitzhak.
posted by mediareport at 6:45 PM on November 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
Philip Lewis: "A stunning timelapse video of thousands who rallied in Washington, DC for the ‘Free Palestine’ march"
posted by cashman at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cashman at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Slavoj Z👃zek interviewed on the situation. More coherent and insightful his typical spiel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just came back to post that, cashman; it gets really good at the 33-second mark. Here's a Nitter mirror for folks who don't want to visit Twitter.
posted by mediareport at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
As it was the war ended in a stalemate in the Sinai, not exactly overwhelming victory.
posted by interogative mood at 10:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
As it was the war ended in a stalemate in the Sinai, not exactly overwhelming victory.
posted by interogative mood at 10:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
That isn't the historical consensus, I believe. The US might say it, and maybe if you squint and take the very long view of winning the next war, perhaps.
Just look at the timeline on the wiki page.
Golan Heights
6 Oct - Syrian tanks cross the border and begin their advance towards Haifa (pincer north of Sea of Galilee) and the Jordan Valley (pincer south of Sea of Galilee). But they don't even make it out of Golan Heights.
10 Oct - Israeli forces crush the Syrians and push them back to the purple line border. This is considered the turning point in the Golan front.
11 Oct to 14 Oct - Israeli forces push into Syria, get within 30km of Damascus (the capital), and start shelling the outskirts. They attacked power plants, fuel storage, bridges and main roads, crippling Syria's ability to continue the war.
Sinai Front
6 Oct - Egyptian tanks cross the Suez
8 Oct - Adan's divisions counter-attacks the Egyptians but it fails and more ground is lost
9 Oct to 13 Oct - Further Egyptian advance is halted and the front is stabilized
14 Oct - Battle of the Sinai - Egyptians launch an attack with 800-1000 tanks beyond the protective umbrella of their SAMs for the first time, and were heavily defeated. They lose 250 tanks (while the IDF loses just 6). This is considered the turning point in the Sinai front.
At this point, the Syrians were "out" of the war and Israel could redeploy their forces to the Sinai in a daring counter-attack past the Suez that would ultimately cut off the Egyptian Third Army from food and water.
18th Oct - Egypt's Commander and Chief and War Minister recommends pushing for a ceasefire as Egypt's military position was untenable.
---
The first C-5A transport airplane from Nickel Grass arrived at Lod airport at 18:30 local time on 14 October, after these events had concluded. As per the link, only 8,755 out of 22,395 tonnes arrived before the war ended on 25th Oct. Abraham Rabinovich, in the definitive book "The Yom Kippur War" (2004) - drawn from extensive interviews and primary source material, and an excellent book by the way - says that only a very small part of material reaching Israel was actually used in the war, and the impact was mostly psychological. And besides, the Soviets themselves began airlifts of material to their proxies on the 10th October, so the US efforts merely counterbalanced the Soviets.
Militarily, the war ended with a total victory for the Israelis, not a stalemate. Egypt was already looking for a ceasefire as early as the 18th, while Israel was pushing for more territorial and military gains past the 25th.
Cairo could have been captured as Israel had 3 armored brigades within striking distance and there was no Egyptian opposition between them, having all been deployed elsewhere.
Egypt's encircled Third Army could have been destroyed in a single night, according to Adan.
Shazly, the Chief of staff of the Egyptian armed forces, said thus "Once the Third Army was encircled by Israeli troops every bit of bread to be sent to our men was paid for by meeting Israeli demands."
Politically, yes, the war ended in a stalemate, as Israel was prevented from destroying Cairo and destroying Egypt's Third Army by the influence of the US and Soviet Union.
Nowadays, there isn't a counter-balancing force in the form of the Soviet Union who would be able to swoop in and airlift troops and supplies to Israel's enemies.
posted by xdvesper at 2:06 AM on November 5, 2023
That isn't the historical consensus, I believe. The US might say it, and maybe if you squint and take the very long view of winning the next war, perhaps.
Just look at the timeline on the wiki page.
Golan Heights
6 Oct - Syrian tanks cross the border and begin their advance towards Haifa (pincer north of Sea of Galilee) and the Jordan Valley (pincer south of Sea of Galilee). But they don't even make it out of Golan Heights.
10 Oct - Israeli forces crush the Syrians and push them back to the purple line border. This is considered the turning point in the Golan front.
11 Oct to 14 Oct - Israeli forces push into Syria, get within 30km of Damascus (the capital), and start shelling the outskirts. They attacked power plants, fuel storage, bridges and main roads, crippling Syria's ability to continue the war.
Sinai Front
6 Oct - Egyptian tanks cross the Suez
8 Oct - Adan's divisions counter-attacks the Egyptians but it fails and more ground is lost
9 Oct to 13 Oct - Further Egyptian advance is halted and the front is stabilized
14 Oct - Battle of the Sinai - Egyptians launch an attack with 800-1000 tanks beyond the protective umbrella of their SAMs for the first time, and were heavily defeated. They lose 250 tanks (while the IDF loses just 6). This is considered the turning point in the Sinai front.
At this point, the Syrians were "out" of the war and Israel could redeploy their forces to the Sinai in a daring counter-attack past the Suez that would ultimately cut off the Egyptian Third Army from food and water.
18th Oct - Egypt's Commander and Chief and War Minister recommends pushing for a ceasefire as Egypt's military position was untenable.
---
The first C-5A transport airplane from Nickel Grass arrived at Lod airport at 18:30 local time on 14 October, after these events had concluded. As per the link, only 8,755 out of 22,395 tonnes arrived before the war ended on 25th Oct. Abraham Rabinovich, in the definitive book "The Yom Kippur War" (2004) - drawn from extensive interviews and primary source material, and an excellent book by the way - says that only a very small part of material reaching Israel was actually used in the war, and the impact was mostly psychological. And besides, the Soviets themselves began airlifts of material to their proxies on the 10th October, so the US efforts merely counterbalanced the Soviets.
Militarily, the war ended with a total victory for the Israelis, not a stalemate. Egypt was already looking for a ceasefire as early as the 18th, while Israel was pushing for more territorial and military gains past the 25th.
Cairo could have been captured as Israel had 3 armored brigades within striking distance and there was no Egyptian opposition between them, having all been deployed elsewhere.
Egypt's encircled Third Army could have been destroyed in a single night, according to Adan.
Shazly, the Chief of staff of the Egyptian armed forces, said thus "Once the Third Army was encircled by Israeli troops every bit of bread to be sent to our men was paid for by meeting Israeli demands."
Politically, yes, the war ended in a stalemate, as Israel was prevented from destroying Cairo and destroying Egypt's Third Army by the influence of the US and Soviet Union.
Nowadays, there isn't a counter-balancing force in the form of the Soviet Union who would be able to swoop in and airlift troops and supplies to Israel's enemies.
posted by xdvesper at 2:06 AM on November 5, 2023
In fairness, Abraham Rabinovich does say that while airlift material didn't make an immediate difference to the battlefield, it did allow them to expend what they had more freely knowing replacements were arriving. You could argue they wouldn't have crossed the Suez if the airlift commitment wasn't made, but given how hot-headed Ariel Sharon and Adan were, I think they would have done it anyway.
Functionally I would interpret this through a stability lens again: if Israel didn't know if they would have US resupply them after the war, they would have been even more incentivized to finish off Egypt once and for all by destroying Cairo and their Third Army.
The US managed to convince them to hold their fire by replenishing their arms, making them confident that they would be able to repulse a similar attack in the future, so there was no need to utterly destroy Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 2:28 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Functionally I would interpret this through a stability lens again: if Israel didn't know if they would have US resupply them after the war, they would have been even more incentivized to finish off Egypt once and for all by destroying Cairo and their Third Army.
The US managed to convince them to hold their fire by replenishing their arms, making them confident that they would be able to repulse a similar attack in the future, so there was no need to utterly destroy Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 2:28 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cairo had six million people in 1973. (A somewhat poignant number, in context.) it’s seen around the world as a place of immense civilizational importance. Trying to ‘destroy’ or ‘sack’ or ‘raze’ it would have a been a complete disaster. Can we stop with this alternate history circle….game?
The reality that exists is what matters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:06 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
The reality that exists is what matters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:06 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
.
for Rabin and the world that might have been
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on November 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
for Rabin and the world that might have been
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on November 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
for Rabin and the world that might have been
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
You have a green light to a genocide you dumb bastards. Told a nation led by far-right psychopaths to do whatever they felt like doing then went out your way to stomp on anyone who might object to that. What the fuck did you think would happen?
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on November 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
You have a green light to a genocide you dumb bastards. Told a nation led by far-right psychopaths to do whatever they felt like doing then went out your way to stomp on anyone who might object to that. What the fuck did you think would happen?
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on November 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not for the leopard to eat their face.
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel Quietly Pushed for Egypt to Admit Large Numbers of Gazans: The Israeli government has not publicly called for large numbers of Gazans to move to Egypt. But in private, diplomats say, it has pushed for just that — augmenting Palestinian fears of a permanent expulsion.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
It's ... not too late to withhold the military aid though.
posted by kensington314 at 12:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's ... not too late to withhold the military aid though.
posted by kensington314 at 12:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
The mythology on this is conflict — for example the attempt to minimize the importance of US supplies during the October 1973 Yom Kippur war above — are an example of why this conflict is to hard to discuss.
It is the same kind of poison that Putin, MAGA and Brexit voters embrace in Russia, the US and UK. A dangerous believe in the unshakable national superiority and inevitability of triumph as ordained by fate or divine rights. Ultimately this is a self defeating ideology that will lead to ruin.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is the same kind of poison that Putin, MAGA and Brexit voters embrace in Russia, the US and UK. A dangerous believe in the unshakable national superiority and inevitability of triumph as ordained by fate or divine rights. Ultimately this is a self defeating ideology that will lead to ruin.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Getting some news coverage here today.
An Israeli minister has been suspended from government meetings "until further notice", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said, after suggesting in an interview dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, and saying Palestinians should "go to Ireland or the desert".
posted by night_train at 12:42 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
An Israeli minister has been suspended from government meetings "until further notice", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said, after suggesting in an interview dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, and saying Palestinians should "go to Ireland or the desert".
posted by night_train at 12:42 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ilhan Pappe the author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine writing for Al Jazeera.
Why Israel wants to erase context and history in the war on Gaza.
The dehistoricisation of what is happening helps Israel pursue genocidal policies in Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why Israel wants to erase context and history in the war on Gaza.
The dehistoricisation of what is happening helps Israel pursue genocidal policies in Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
"Oh," saidBush Biden in clear exasperation, "the vision thing."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Oh," said
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Typical right wing language, it's always 'rhetoric' [in NZ we now have a far right govt as press wouldn't challenge racist speech] "Following the outcry over his remarks, Mr Eliyahu said in a post on X, that his statement about the atomic bomb was "metaphorical".
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
posted by unearthed at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
posted by unearthed at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
'Heritage' as in 'minister of ethnonationalism' since the position was resurrected by Likud.
Eliyahu is leader of the literal "Jewish Power Party."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Eliyahu is leader of the literal "Jewish Power Party."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
I was common for my wife's uncle to bring up at the Thanksgiving table during the 80's that his preference was to use neutron bombs (enhanced radiation) which did the ethnic cleansing, but with minimal damage to the real-estate. I suspect this person's real breach of protocol was saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
I was common for my wife's uncle to bring up at the Thanksgiving table during the 80's that his preference was to use neutron bombs (enhanced radiation) which did the ethnic cleansing, but with minimal damage to the real-estate. I suspect this person's real breach of protocol was saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Earlier today there was a pro-Palestinian March and demonstration with about 2000 people in Stockholm, according to the national news service. That’s a big crowd for a Stockholm demonstration.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:08 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:08 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
“Chartbook 251: Israel's national security neoliberalism put to the test,” Adam Tooze, Chartbook, 04 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The good news for what passes for good news:
- A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
- 75 aid trucks made it into southern Gaza.
- Hezbollah leader Nasrallah’s speech on Friday was more subdued and seemed to indicate they are holding back for now.
- An aircraft that usually transports high level Israeli officials and has been linked to past negotiations was in Cairo for a few hours this weekend.
- Blinken seems to be doing the listening tour of Arab capitals. It seems like the old hands at the State Department are being brought back into the room instead of being shut out as Blinken and other top Biden NSC officials realize that they’ve been played by Netenyahu.
posted by interogative mood at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
- A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
- 75 aid trucks made it into southern Gaza.
- Hezbollah leader Nasrallah’s speech on Friday was more subdued and seemed to indicate they are holding back for now.
- An aircraft that usually transports high level Israeli officials and has been linked to past negotiations was in Cairo for a few hours this weekend.
- Blinken seems to be doing the listening tour of Arab capitals. It seems like the old hands at the State Department are being brought back into the room instead of being shut out as Blinken and other top Biden NSC officials realize that they’ve been played by Netenyahu.
posted by interogative mood at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
Considering the IDF bombed the corridor route the last time they told people to flee south, I don't know if we can, uh, take IDF proclamations of a "humanitarian corridor" at face value. In other news...
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
House Republicans Introduce Legislation ‘To Expel Palestinians From the United States’
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Considering the IDF bombed the corridor route the last time they told people to flee south, I don't know if we can, uh, take IDF proclamations of a "humanitarian corridor" at face value. In other news...
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
House Republicans Introduce Legislation ‘To Expel Palestinians From the United States’
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is the first known incident of space combat - Houthis claimed responsibility for firing ballistic missiles into Israel, one of which was intercepted outside earth's atmosphere by an Arrow III interceptor.
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on November 5, 2023
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on November 5, 2023
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
Came here to post this. Looked around and made sure it was legitimate. Not like everything going on and the ongoing genocide isn't one billion percent disgusting, but unreal how this is getting even worse. Just horrific. Disgusting.
posted by cashman at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Came here to post this. Looked around and made sure it was legitimate. Not like everything going on and the ongoing genocide isn't one billion percent disgusting, but unreal how this is getting even worse. Just horrific. Disgusting.
posted by cashman at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
A better group of Israeli doctors is Physicians for Human Rights Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
What happened to "first do no harm"? They shouldn't be allowed to practice - what are they going to do if a "terrorist snake" ends up their patient, given they were willing to kill innocents and bomb hospitals just for a chance to get them dead?
posted by Dysk at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
What happened to "first do no harm"? They shouldn't be allowed to practice - what are they going to do if a "terrorist snake" ends up their patient, given they were willing to kill innocents and bomb hospitals just for a chance to get them dead?
posted by Dysk at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
If its one thing twitter has shown me is that (in the US at least) doctors have pretty horrible worldviews/politics.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
If its one thing twitter has shown me is that (in the US at least) doctors have pretty horrible worldviews/politics.
That, for me, was definitely one of the surprises of the pandemic.
More generally, while it is great to share news and analyses, it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention -- I'm not convinced that we really need to repeatedly give them that attention and amplification in this thread. Terrible people are going to be predictably terrible.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
That, for me, was definitely one of the surprises of the pandemic.
More generally, while it is great to share news and analyses, it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention -- I'm not convinced that we really need to repeatedly give them that attention and amplification in this thread. Terrible people are going to be predictably terrible.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
It is now increasingly clear that Hamas is not the main target. Hamas is the excuse to obliterate as many inhabitants of Gaza as possible and drive the rest into the Sinai desert.
This is a Genocide. What is being achieved with American supplied bombs in Gaza is also being achieved with American supplied A38s in the West Bank.
Israel is also holding foreign hostages in that it is noticeable that US citizens are being allowed to exit Gaza whilest Brazilians for example are not,.
the Israeli government signals that it has established a political hierarchy for the release of civilians, favouring some countries over others
posted by adamvasco at 7:40 AM on November 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is a Genocide. What is being achieved with American supplied bombs in Gaza is also being achieved with American supplied A38s in the West Bank.
Israel is also holding foreign hostages in that it is noticeable that US citizens are being allowed to exit Gaza whilest Brazilians for example are not,.
the Israeli government signals that it has established a political hierarchy for the release of civilians, favouring some countries over others
posted by adamvasco at 7:40 AM on November 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
What happened to "first do no harm"?
I noticed that at least one of them works at the Rabin Medical Center. I can't even.
posted by virago at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2023
What happened to "first do no harm"?
I noticed that at least one of them works at the Rabin Medical Center. I can't even.
posted by virago at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2023
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
So, this is just my opinion, not any strong statement about moderation policies or saying that what people do is right or wrong. Personally, I see very little value in the outrage links of "terrible person just said horrible thing!" (not just in this thread, I feel this way generally) -- functionally, it amplifies the message without offering anything else. On the contrary, I find enormous value when someone posts a link to a thoughtful analysis or informed perspective that puts the terrible people saying horrible things in context, where I can understand why this is happening and whether or not it matters, what might happen next, etc.
And to your question: yes, I am sure many of them are saying those horrible things in large part to get attention. That's what terrible public figures always do, both to boost their personal brand and as a way to advance policy goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, this is just my opinion, not any strong statement about moderation policies or saying that what people do is right or wrong. Personally, I see very little value in the outrage links of "terrible person just said horrible thing!" (not just in this thread, I feel this way generally) -- functionally, it amplifies the message without offering anything else. On the contrary, I find enormous value when someone posts a link to a thoughtful analysis or informed perspective that puts the terrible people saying horrible things in context, where I can understand why this is happening and whether or not it matters, what might happen next, etc.
And to your question: yes, I am sure many of them are saying those horrible things in large part to get attention. That's what terrible public figures always do, both to boost their personal brand and as a way to advance policy goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
The UN is hosting a briefing from Israel entitled, "Never Again is Now!". It started ten minutes ago and is available, live and replay, here.
They opened by explaining that since the heinous attacks by Hamas on the 7th, global antisemitism incidents have risen 500%. Even allowing for the fact that they consider anything decrying Zionism to be antisemitic, I don't think anyone doubts they are correct there has been a rise of actual antisemitism.
Zero acknowledgement that anything might have happened in the month since that might be worsening that problem though - and that's a tough thing to talk about. Israel's ongoing genocide no more makes antisemitism acceptable than Hamas's terrorism makes Islamophobia acceptable.
That said, the powerful men ordering those crimes and setting those policies are morally culpable, not just for the crimes against those they target, but for the blowback against the innocents who they are responsible for or seen as representing.
A pox on Benjamin Netanyahu, Ismail Haniyeh, and all their ilk.
posted by bcd at 8:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
They opened by explaining that since the heinous attacks by Hamas on the 7th, global antisemitism incidents have risen 500%. Even allowing for the fact that they consider anything decrying Zionism to be antisemitic, I don't think anyone doubts they are correct there has been a rise of actual antisemitism.
Zero acknowledgement that anything might have happened in the month since that might be worsening that problem though - and that's a tough thing to talk about. Israel's ongoing genocide no more makes antisemitism acceptable than Hamas's terrorism makes Islamophobia acceptable.
That said, the powerful men ordering those crimes and setting those policies are morally culpable, not just for the crimes against those they target, but for the blowback against the innocents who they are responsible for or seen as representing.
A pox on Benjamin Netanyahu, Ismail Haniyeh, and all their ilk.
posted by bcd at 8:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would add to Dip Flash’s comment that there’s a big difference in posting news about some outrageous thing some one said who has little power or real influence versus what say Biden or senior leaders in a government are saying. And even those latter should be linked with analysis and ways to push for them to not suck. That is, if you’re in the US and want a ceasefire or some kind of change, then call your congress people, even the ones who seem to have awdul opinions. It’s a well known problem that members of Congress often underestimate constituent tauport on issues.
posted by R343L at 8:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 8:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
The letter was first posted on Quds News Network’s a Hamas affiliated news agency and then shared by a far left news outlet Mondoweiss. This could be genuine, or could also be a forgery. It might have started as a forgery and gained real signatures. The original tweet claimed that 1,000 Israeli doctors had signed it; but showed only 9 signatures.
I’d like to see more mainstream coverage of this and confirmation from individual signers that they signed it. Please share those stories as they start to show up.
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 AM on November 6, 2023
I’d like to see more mainstream coverage of this and confirmation from individual signers that they signed it. Please share those stories as they start to show up.
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 AM on November 6, 2023
Israel-Hamas war is deadliest ever for UN aid workers, with at least 88 killed
posted by ssg at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Re "Never again is now", I just finished reading this opinion piece from a Jewish professor at Columbia, saying the same thing, and expressing his fear and horror at the antisemitism he sees in the pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia and elsewhere.
First, I'm wrenched by reading about his pain and fear. It's similar to what a Jewish former co-worker has expressed to me. It's horrible, and a necessary reminder of how absolutely wrong and unjustifiable the Oct 7 massacre was, no matter what we think about the IDF response. The author also mentions his support of the Palestinian cause and a 2-state solution, and acknowledges their pain too, so I don't think he's trying to justify the ferocity of the IDF response.
My current questions: are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
It's diabolical (said the atheist) just how effectively the Hamas terrorism of Oct 7 has so efficiently split open the Israel-Palestine faultline again, worldwide.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:13 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
First, I'm wrenched by reading about his pain and fear. It's similar to what a Jewish former co-worker has expressed to me. It's horrible, and a necessary reminder of how absolutely wrong and unjustifiable the Oct 7 massacre was, no matter what we think about the IDF response. The author also mentions his support of the Palestinian cause and a 2-state solution, and acknowledges their pain too, so I don't think he's trying to justify the ferocity of the IDF response.
My current questions: are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
It's diabolical (said the atheist) just how effectively the Hamas terrorism of Oct 7 has so efficiently split open the Israel-Palestine faultline again, worldwide.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:13 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
yes (see Germany), yes (see Milan demo), and yes (everywhere, pretty much).
Yet Bassem Youssef’s question stands, as yet unanswered: what is the acceptable exchange rate, this time?
posted by progosk at 10:28 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
yes (see Germany), yes (see Milan demo), and yes (everywhere, pretty much).
Yet Bassem Youssef’s question stands, as yet unanswered: what is the acceptable exchange rate, this time?
posted by progosk at 10:28 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
U.S. diplomats slam Israel policy in leaked memo
State Department staffers offered a blistering critique of the Biden administration’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a dissent memo obtained by POLITICO, arguing that, among other things, the U.S. should be willing to publicly criticize the Israelis.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
State Department staffers offered a blistering critique of the Biden administration’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a dissent memo obtained by POLITICO, arguing that, among other things, the U.S. should be willing to publicly criticize the Israelis.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think Davidai is writing in entirely good faith. Davidai described Joseph Massad as someone 'who consider such horrors [Hamas' 10/7 attack] as “awesome” acts of “resistance.”' But Massad is not saying, whoa these attacks against civilians are totally awesome!
Massad wrote :
"The sight of the Palestinian resistance fighters storming Israeli checkpoints separating Gaza from Israel was astounding, not only to the Israelis but especially to the Palestinian and Arab peoples who came out across the region to march in support of the Palestinians in their battle against their cruel colonizers...No less awesome were the scenes witnessed by millions of jubilant Arabs who spent the day watching the news, of Palestinian fighters from Gaza breaking through Israel’s prison fence or gliding over it by air."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:34 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Massad wrote :
"The sight of the Palestinian resistance fighters storming Israeli checkpoints separating Gaza from Israel was astounding, not only to the Israelis but especially to the Palestinian and Arab peoples who came out across the region to march in support of the Palestinians in their battle against their cruel colonizers...No less awesome were the scenes witnessed by millions of jubilant Arabs who spent the day watching the news, of Palestinian fighters from Gaza breaking through Israel’s prison fence or gliding over it by air."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:34 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Davidai is not writing in good faith. This is the same crybully dynamic that is often identified as "white women's tears" when transposed to a US racial context.
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
I believe the answer is, 'absolutely all three'.
posted by bcd at 10:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I believe the answer is, 'absolutely all three'.
posted by bcd at 10:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I was just watching Swedish national news. It included a report from France that covered vandalism such as Stars of David being spray painted on buildings in a horrifying nod to World War II. One woman, a Jewish grade school teacher, was weeping as she explained that she has lost all hope for a world without antisemites and without hate for Jews. She’s worried that she’s going to be attacked. People are sending her hateful messages on her social media and demanding that she stop the bombing of Gaza. “How am I supposed to stop the bombing in Gaza?” she asked.
People are being horrible to Jews and to Arabs and Israel is still bombing Gaza. There’s not room here for periods to represent all the deaths on October 7 and since then.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
People are being horrible to Jews and to Arabs and Israel is still bombing Gaza. There’s not room here for periods to represent all the deaths on October 7 and since then.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
This wasn’t some non-violent march to the fence — Iirc the Palestinians did that a few years ago and it was one of their most effective acts of resistance in years
It is useful to also remember what the IDF did to them when they did that.
posted by bcd at 11:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
It is useful to also remember what the IDF did to them when they did that.
posted by bcd at 11:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
I don't know if it is that Rabin was so important, but that his death was a trigger moment like the death of Archduke Ferdinand. It's not the person who died so much as everything that came out from their death. I have met young Israelis who were born after Rabin died who still remember every year what might have been.
posted by jb at 11:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know if it is that Rabin was so important, but that his death was a trigger moment like the death of Archduke Ferdinand. It's not the person who died so much as everything that came out from their death. I have met young Israelis who were born after Rabin died who still remember every year what might have been.
posted by jb at 11:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Derail about OJ Simpson deleted. Please do not make analogies like this one as they will be provocative without any constructive or helpful result.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sure sounds like Massad is describing the attack as something worthy of celebrating and justifying .
I have to agree with the above (since-deleted) statement. "Palestinian resistance fighters", "...in their battle against their cruel colonizers.". They weren't resistance fighters, it wasn't anyone's idea of a battle; it was a massacre. Terrorism. Why is it hard for some to acknowledge that?
Likewise, the IDF isn't currently engaged in a defensive action; they are seeking vengeance and the elimination of Hamas without regards to the lives of Gazan non-combatants. It does seem like they're intending to drive Palestinians right out of Gaza.
Truth is the first casualty, etc etc.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:12 PM on November 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I have to agree with the above (since-deleted) statement. "Palestinian resistance fighters", "...in their battle against their cruel colonizers.". They weren't resistance fighters, it wasn't anyone's idea of a battle; it was a massacre. Terrorism. Why is it hard for some to acknowledge that?
Likewise, the IDF isn't currently engaged in a defensive action; they are seeking vengeance and the elimination of Hamas without regards to the lives of Gazan non-combatants. It does seem like they're intending to drive Palestinians right out of Gaza.
Truth is the first casualty, etc etc.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:12 PM on November 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
It seems to me that original comment regarding criticism of Massad and calling it acting in bad faith was far more outrageous. I think the mods should delete that as well.
posted by interogative mood at 12:33 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 12:33 PM on November 6, 2023
at the risk of adding too much levity: i must say, as someone who missed the original comment/comments, that that mod note is among the funniest i've seen in a long time and i am now updating my list of worst things to bring up while talking about israel and palestine.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
"There are lots of diseases now"
‘I could never dream such a nightmare’: Gaza in grip of humanitarian disaster
UN official, medics and displaced people tell of overcrowding, panic and lack of essentials as bombardment continues
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘I could never dream such a nightmare’: Gaza in grip of humanitarian disaster
UN official, medics and displaced people tell of overcrowding, panic and lack of essentials as bombardment continues
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Obama makes some sensible points that will satisfy no one.
posted by interogative mood at 5:05 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:05 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Obama makes some sensible points that will satisfy no one
Not so much? The situation isn't really complex. Israel has been violating international law with settlement building for decades. The actions of Hamas et al occur within that context. It isn't any more "complex" than the dispossession and imprisonment on reservations of Native Americans in the 19th century.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:24 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not so much? The situation isn't really complex. Israel has been violating international law with settlement building for decades. The actions of Hamas et al occur within that context. It isn't any more "complex" than the dispossession and imprisonment on reservations of Native Americans in the 19th century.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:24 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
For people who don't click links, here is the sentence in which Obama references complexity:
“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable”
That hardly seems objectionable? He seems to be using the word "complex" here to mean "able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time." Which you'd think wouldn't be a big deal and yet here we are.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable”
That hardly seems objectionable? He seems to be using the word "complex" here to mean "able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time." Which you'd think wouldn't be a big deal and yet here we are.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
That excerpt just seems not very actionable or material. Currently the Israeli military is killing thousands after thousands of innocent people and there is a proliferation of newspaper articles about how the United States government, having initially decided to "stand with" Israel in their retaliation, now appears unable to influence or curb the disproportionate and sadistic cruelty the country is engaged in.
So like, I welcome a both sides sentiment from a former American president, I guess, I would mark a both sides sentiment as a kind of sad progress, but Obama's comments don't provide a path forward for anybody and are probably just not very important! He's not the President, and the person who is the President just had his Secretary of State return home having apparently been totally rebuffed by Netanyahu.
posted by kensington314 at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
So like, I welcome a both sides sentiment from a former American president, I guess, I would mark a both sides sentiment as a kind of sad progress, but Obama's comments don't provide a path forward for anybody and are probably just not very important! He's not the President, and the person who is the President just had his Secretary of State return home having apparently been totally rebuffed by Netanyahu.
posted by kensington314 at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The IDF captured a Scout troop meeting place that Hamas has been using as a place to store and shoot rockets.
posted by interogative mood at 6:44 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:44 PM on November 6, 2023
For those of us who have either worked on this topic for a while or been involved with these conversations for a long enough time, “it’s complex “ or “it’s really complicated “ has been code for “this is an inscrutable conflict between two people with millennia long grievances and you need a PhD in the subject to understand it, so shut your mouth if you’re going to go against centrist opinion on this issue [in the US]”. Ta-nehsi Coates had a recent interview about this point and his view was “witnessing the occupation first hand made it clear that this is not a gray area”. The politics of it are complex for sure, as is the history.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 PM on November 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 PM on November 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
I thought the actual Obama interview answer was better than the excerpt. I skipped the setup, even this part is 6+ minutes.
Here's how he ended:
Here's how he ended:
I would rather see you out there talking to people, including people who you disagree with. If you genuinely want to change this, then you've got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side, and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it. Becuase you can't save that child without their help, not in this situation.posted by netowl at 7:21 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even that part is bullshit. The idea that Israelis and Palestinians don’t talk to each other is laughable. This is just regurgitated ethnic primordial hatred BS. No, the problem is politics and policy, and the more powerful actor in the conflict is underwritten by the most powerful empire in the world, and US policy has been disastrous for human rights. And nearly unconditional military aid to Israel is the crux of the issue in the US. Maybe Obama could do something about that instead of lecturing us plebs.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
The IDF captured a Scout troop meeting place that Hamas has been using as a place to store and shoot rockets.
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here, when they are very clearly mounting a significant propaganda campaign? There are lots of reputable news sources available.
posted by ssg at 7:41 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here, when they are very clearly mounting a significant propaganda campaign? There are lots of reputable news sources available.
posted by ssg at 7:41 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
ah you see this bombed to shit basement may once have been used for boy scouts meetings so actually it’s ok to kill thousands of children
posted by dis_integration at 7:47 PM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:47 PM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
I'm happy with images and video which we can verify and form our own judgements on, that's the basis of OSINT. There are also images and video which show gunfire from hospitals and also tunnel entrances from under it, as well as statements from US officials that Hamas tried to smuggle fighters out of Gaza in ambulances by getting them on the evacuation list
Images and video are far more useful than, say, the posters here who parroted the falsehood that the al Ahli hospital was "blown up" when if they had just looked at the actual images, it was plain for all to see that the worst damage to it was some windows got shattered and the overwhelming consensus globally is that it was a stray rocket, not an IDF bomb.
posted by xdvesper at 8:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
I'm happy with images and video which we can verify and form our own judgements on, that's the basis of OSINT. There are also images and video which show gunfire from hospitals and also tunnel entrances from under it, as well as statements from US officials that Hamas tried to smuggle fighters out of Gaza in ambulances by getting them on the evacuation list
Images and video are far more useful than, say, the posters here who parroted the falsehood that the al Ahli hospital was "blown up" when if they had just looked at the actual images, it was plain for all to see that the worst damage to it was some windows got shattered and the overwhelming consensus globally is that it was a stray rocket, not an IDF bomb.
posted by xdvesper at 8:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
And if you say, well we believe Hamas casualty figures are totally trustworthy for $reasons but the IDF are not.
Then you will also believe Hamas when they say they did not kill a single civilian (BBC interview) in Israel on Oct 7, they only targeted conscripts.
My point is that you need to look at the evidence and make up your own mind.
I don't hear it discussed much but I think the ballistic missile that the Houthis fired at Israel is a significant escalation that led directly to CENTCOM posting a picture showing they had an Ohio class nuclear submarine in the area of operations.
These medium ranged ballistic missiles like the one that hit Israel fly outside the earth's atmosphere and have a range of 2500km or greater. The only way to intercept them is to hit them while they're in space, by the time they're heading back down to earth at 15x the speed of sound they can't be stopped.
That launch was deliberately timed with the threat from Iran that the US "will be hit hard" if there is no ceasefire in Gaza - not that the US seems capable of achieving that anyway. This is Iran showing it has the willingness and maybe the capability to do it.
Iran is not publicly known to have a missile capable of reaching the US, but the Houthis were not publicly known to have ballistic missiles capable of hitting Israel either, until they did.
This adds a new dimension to the US pressure on Israel to halt the offensive in Gaza.
If a ballistic missile was detected heading towards the US, they would have already fired counter-strikes against the origin nation before the missile crossed into US territory, and that's probably what the Ohio class submarine is for. Depending on the origin nation and number of missiles fired, these counter-strikes might be nuclear in nature. There's no way to know if the ballistic missile heading your way has a nuclear or biological warhead.
That a ballistic missile from space almost hit Israel goes by unremarked is pretty crazy to me. It's probably the fact that Israel is too busy defending against hundreds of rockets daily from the West (Gaza), and is being attacked from the North (Hezbollah in Lebanon) and also the South (Houthis in Yemen).
Hezbollah's stockpiles are much deeper than Hamas, estimated at 150,000 rockets.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Then you will also believe Hamas when they say they did not kill a single civilian (BBC interview) in Israel on Oct 7, they only targeted conscripts.
My point is that you need to look at the evidence and make up your own mind.
I don't hear it discussed much but I think the ballistic missile that the Houthis fired at Israel is a significant escalation that led directly to CENTCOM posting a picture showing they had an Ohio class nuclear submarine in the area of operations.
These medium ranged ballistic missiles like the one that hit Israel fly outside the earth's atmosphere and have a range of 2500km or greater. The only way to intercept them is to hit them while they're in space, by the time they're heading back down to earth at 15x the speed of sound they can't be stopped.
That launch was deliberately timed with the threat from Iran that the US "will be hit hard" if there is no ceasefire in Gaza - not that the US seems capable of achieving that anyway. This is Iran showing it has the willingness and maybe the capability to do it.
Iran is not publicly known to have a missile capable of reaching the US, but the Houthis were not publicly known to have ballistic missiles capable of hitting Israel either, until they did.
This adds a new dimension to the US pressure on Israel to halt the offensive in Gaza.
If a ballistic missile was detected heading towards the US, they would have already fired counter-strikes against the origin nation before the missile crossed into US territory, and that's probably what the Ohio class submarine is for. Depending on the origin nation and number of missiles fired, these counter-strikes might be nuclear in nature. There's no way to know if the ballistic missile heading your way has a nuclear or biological warhead.
That a ballistic missile from space almost hit Israel goes by unremarked is pretty crazy to me. It's probably the fact that Israel is too busy defending against hundreds of rockets daily from the West (Gaza), and is being attacked from the North (Hezbollah in Lebanon) and also the South (Houthis in Yemen).
Hezbollah's stockpiles are much deeper than Hamas, estimated at 150,000 rockets.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Brandeis University bans Students for Justice in Palestine chapter
(Contrary to what the headline states, I don't believe they're the first college to do this... Fordham, for instance has done this previously... also all of Florida, apparently)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Contrary to what the headline states, I don't believe they're the first college to do this... Fordham, for instance has done this previously... also all of Florida, apparently)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
There’s a huge difference between what Hamas (the military wing) says is dead or not dead or who they killed or did not kill, and the Gaza Ministry of Health. Everyone can cut out the middleman and just cite Btselem or HRW, they all rely on the ministry of health’s numbers.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:04 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:04 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that, but should find a reputable outlet that notes the claim is from Hamas.
And the same goes for the IDF. Linking directly to them - when we know they (like many police outlets) have regularly lied, only to later correct themselves when fewer folks are watching - is not helpful in creating a thoughtful conversation here among folks who strongly disagree.
Do better. At this point in these discussions linking an IDF site as an authoritative source does not help with that thoughtfulness. Find another source that presents their claims as claims.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that, but should find a reputable outlet that notes the claim is from Hamas.
And the same goes for the IDF. Linking directly to them - when we know they (like many police outlets) have regularly lied, only to later correct themselves when fewer folks are watching - is not helpful in creating a thoughtful conversation here among folks who strongly disagree.
Do better. At this point in these discussions linking an IDF site as an authoritative source does not help with that thoughtfulness. Find another source that presents their claims as claims.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor:
"In just a few hours of violent and intense air attacks on the Gaza Strip overnight, and amid a total blackout of communications and Internet services, Israel has committed its largest massacre since its establishment in 1948, the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor reported today...Euro-Med Monitor estimated that Israel's overnight attacks, the scale of which is unprecedented since the start of its war on the Gaza Strip on 7 October, left more than 1,500 people dead or wounded as well as hundreds of homes destroyed, many with their residents trapped inside.
The Israeli army has declared it struck more than 450 targets last night, and continues its incitement against hospitals, with areas around several in Gaza City and its northern areas, including Al-Shifa Medical Complex, the Indonesian Hospital, the Eye Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital and the only psychiatric hospital in the Strip, targeted in an unprecedented and violent manner, according to Euro-Med Monitor. The Israeli army has claimed that hospitals are being used for military purposes without presenting any concrete proof.
Since the start of the ongoing Israeli war, 16 out of 35 hospitals and 51 primary care facilities (more than 75%) across the Gaza Strip have been unable to operate due to the intense Israeli raids or fuel shortages."
Link here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
"In just a few hours of violent and intense air attacks on the Gaza Strip overnight, and amid a total blackout of communications and Internet services, Israel has committed its largest massacre since its establishment in 1948, the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor reported today...Euro-Med Monitor estimated that Israel's overnight attacks, the scale of which is unprecedented since the start of its war on the Gaza Strip on 7 October, left more than 1,500 people dead or wounded as well as hundreds of homes destroyed, many with their residents trapped inside.
The Israeli army has declared it struck more than 450 targets last night, and continues its incitement against hospitals, with areas around several in Gaza City and its northern areas, including Al-Shifa Medical Complex, the Indonesian Hospital, the Eye Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital and the only psychiatric hospital in the Strip, targeted in an unprecedented and violent manner, according to Euro-Med Monitor. The Israeli army has claimed that hospitals are being used for military purposes without presenting any concrete proof.
Since the start of the ongoing Israeli war, 16 out of 35 hospitals and 51 primary care facilities (more than 75%) across the Gaza Strip have been unable to operate due to the intense Israeli raids or fuel shortages."
Link here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality. It is incredibly frustrating to hear over and over again from ideologues who think there is some totally obvious, simple solution to this enduring conflict be they Likudniks or Leftists. If you want to see where that kind of thinking leads look at the mess of Biden's response on this. In the rush to react to the events of October 7th the actual experts at US State Department, US AID, DOD, CIA and other experts who've spent decades on this were pushed aside and ignored by Biden's advisors who thought they knew better.
The progress towards or a full resolution of this conflict will require negotiation and compromise. That is what centrists do and why they are the target of the ideologues, who seem to actually think "centrist" is a pejorative.
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
The progress towards or a full resolution of this conflict will require negotiation and compromise. That is what centrists do and why they are the target of the ideologues, who seem to actually think "centrist" is a pejorative.
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality.
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality. It is incredibly frustrating to hear over and over again from ideologues who think there is some totally obvious, simple solution to this enduring conflict be they Likudniks or Leftists.
Could you spend a little bit more effort reading what people are actually writing? No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple. At all.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Could you spend a little bit more effort reading what people are actually writing? No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple. At all.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
I'm still in the camp of "it's complicated." The one thing that doesn't seem complicated to me is the need for some kind of "humanitarian pause" or whatever you want to call it, because there are thousands and thousands of civilians who desperately need food, water, access to medical care, etc. But even that would be tricky in execution -- like, how do you best structure a pause or ceasefire to maximize benefits to civilians while limiting to the extent possible benefits to Hamas?
The other benefit some kind of pause would give is perhaps it would allow Israel to come up with a workable plan and goals that go beyond "bomb the crap out of the entire area" which seems increasingly unlikely to achieve just about any goal possible.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm still in the camp of "it's complicated." The one thing that doesn't seem complicated to me is the need for some kind of "humanitarian pause" or whatever you want to call it, because there are thousands and thousands of civilians who desperately need food, water, access to medical care, etc. But even that would be tricky in execution -- like, how do you best structure a pause or ceasefire to maximize benefits to civilians while limiting to the extent possible benefits to Hamas?
The other benefit some kind of pause would give is perhaps it would allow Israel to come up with a workable plan and goals that go beyond "bomb the crap out of the entire area" which seems increasingly unlikely to achieve just about any goal possible.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple.
Nobody except Obama, per your above screed
posted by Jarcat at 9:36 AM on November 7, 2023
Nobody except Obama, per your above screed
posted by Jarcat at 9:36 AM on November 7, 2023
Most of the folks I see saying anything like “it’s not complicated” are folks like Ta-Nehisi Coates who very clearly is stating a moral case about particular aspects: that it’s not complicated to judge that certain actions are definitely wrong (eg: Hamas’ attack on 10/7 targetting non-combatants, the IDF subsequently killing thousands of children in Gaza, or land theft in the West Bank). They typically will go on to note that getting to a place where those immoral things don’t happen might be complicated but that we should be able to say without compromise that some things are wrong, even if fixing them is hard. The Democracy Now interview with TNC makes this point, as have most of the left wing pieces I’ve read and many folks online elsewhere. Maybe there are college kids and niche activist groups in the US who omit talking about how we get to a less immoral status quo or assert absurd demands for Israel, but I haven’t read anyone with substantial cultural or political power making the claim that the conflict is straightforward to fix.
Relatedly the most recent bonus episode of Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz podcast opened talking about the news in the year of release for a movie from the late 1970s — at the beginning of their episodes they talk about whatever news is on the front page of the New York Times. For this episode, Ganz talked extensively about a couple news stories related to diplomatic talks between Prime Minister Begim of Israel and President Sadat of Egypt. A point Ganz makes is the ultimate agreement they came to normalized Egypt-Israel relations but excluded Palestinian representatives from the negotiations and did not address self-determination for Palestinians. Ganz is himself clearly of the position that it is not complicated to say how Palestinians as a group are treated across Gaza, the West Bank, in refugee camps, etc is wrong but he is clearly aware that achieving it is complicated.
But right now in the United States folks are being labeled as terrorist supporters merely for asserting that it’s wrong to kill children simply because someone in Hamas MIGHT be nearby and other such moral stances that have a long history of many people across the world holding true (including at times when the US has done similarly wrong things and been criticized for it). This kind of political environment is not only corrosive to people’s souls (if you are convincing yourself it’s okay to kill children in this way, what else will you accept?) but also makes it hard for leaders in the United States to push for mitigations of harm like a ceasefire which clearly is a prerequisite for anyone to be willing to talk.
posted by R343L at 9:40 AM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Relatedly the most recent bonus episode of Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz podcast opened talking about the news in the year of release for a movie from the late 1970s — at the beginning of their episodes they talk about whatever news is on the front page of the New York Times. For this episode, Ganz talked extensively about a couple news stories related to diplomatic talks between Prime Minister Begim of Israel and President Sadat of Egypt. A point Ganz makes is the ultimate agreement they came to normalized Egypt-Israel relations but excluded Palestinian representatives from the negotiations and did not address self-determination for Palestinians. Ganz is himself clearly of the position that it is not complicated to say how Palestinians as a group are treated across Gaza, the West Bank, in refugee camps, etc is wrong but he is clearly aware that achieving it is complicated.
But right now in the United States folks are being labeled as terrorist supporters merely for asserting that it’s wrong to kill children simply because someone in Hamas MIGHT be nearby and other such moral stances that have a long history of many people across the world holding true (including at times when the US has done similarly wrong things and been criticized for it). This kind of political environment is not only corrosive to people’s souls (if you are convincing yourself it’s okay to kill children in this way, what else will you accept?) but also makes it hard for leaders in the United States to push for mitigations of harm like a ceasefire which clearly is a prerequisite for anyone to be willing to talk.
posted by R343L at 9:40 AM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The following news link, personally, gets to me so much. There's so much background radioactive antisemitism in my daily life it has been ongoing work to make sure that I don't fall into antisemitic tropes just because I support Palestinian self-determination and liberty. This is something that I see, with varying levels of success, at numerous spaces and groups (and those who don't care can be safely dismissed as anti-Semitic). And yet, even a little critique gets the reflexive accusation, that it feels like the only reason why this round of discourse isn't turning out that way is because it's no longer discourse when it's about 30 days of just unending retribution (and tonight I'm reminded of what happened in Philadelphia in 1985).
But that reflexive accusation works (especially as antisemitism isn't ever fully and meaningfully addressed, and something that is convenient for a lot of the Israeli establishment to keep inciting, eg Netanyahu's support for Hamas), and people lose standing, income etc.
Saller and Martinez speak on Israel-Gaza at Faculty Senate meeting: He cautioned community members against “drawing conclusions about things that may be reported on, with or without verification” and warned about “the circulation of fake news,” which he said is an important issue for consideration in keeping the University safe.
Saller brought up a Protected Identity Harm report the University received on Wednesday regarding markings made with chalk in White Plaza.
Saller said “an individual affiliated with the University attempted to chalk phrases on the ground pointing toward students participating in the sit-in for Palestine.”
According to Saller, the phrases “included deeply offensive language about violence toward Jewish people.” He said that although the photo was initially assumed to be antisemitic in nature, this was later disputed.
“The chalking was created by a Jewish community member who was trying to use irony and sarcasm to draw negative attention to the pro-Palestinian protests on campus,” Saller said, referencing a statement made by Stanford Hillel. “Within a few minutes of chalking, they regretted what they wrote and erased it with water and actually apologized.”
When I wake up, it's going to be Day 31.
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 AM on November 7, 2023
But that reflexive accusation works (especially as antisemitism isn't ever fully and meaningfully addressed, and something that is convenient for a lot of the Israeli establishment to keep inciting, eg Netanyahu's support for Hamas), and people lose standing, income etc.
Saller and Martinez speak on Israel-Gaza at Faculty Senate meeting: He cautioned community members against “drawing conclusions about things that may be reported on, with or without verification” and warned about “the circulation of fake news,” which he said is an important issue for consideration in keeping the University safe.
Saller brought up a Protected Identity Harm report the University received on Wednesday regarding markings made with chalk in White Plaza.
Saller said “an individual affiliated with the University attempted to chalk phrases on the ground pointing toward students participating in the sit-in for Palestine.”
According to Saller, the phrases “included deeply offensive language about violence toward Jewish people.” He said that although the photo was initially assumed to be antisemitic in nature, this was later disputed.
“The chalking was created by a Jewish community member who was trying to use irony and sarcasm to draw negative attention to the pro-Palestinian protests on campus,” Saller said, referencing a statement made by Stanford Hillel. “Within a few minutes of chalking, they regretted what they wrote and erased it with water and actually apologized.”
When I wake up, it's going to be Day 31.
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 AM on November 7, 2023
Those chalkings were incredibly immature and I know tempers are high (and kids in college are still impulsive kids) but things like that don't help the case you have to constantly make that opposing the assault on gaza has nothing to do with antisemitism. Hate it!
posted by dis_integration at 10:03 AM on November 7, 2023
posted by dis_integration at 10:03 AM on November 7, 2023
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei dismissed US calls for Iran to restrain its proxies in Iraq during a meeting with Iraqi Prime Minister Mohammed al Sudani in Tehran on November 6.'
"Khamenei’s call for “political” pressure is part of the Iranian regime’s ongoing effort to cover up its involvement in the Israel-Hamas war. Iranian officials and media have repeatedly framed Iran as a responsible and non-escalatory actor since the start of the war. This narrative ignores the fact that Iran has already facilitated the expansion of the war to Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria by directing and encouraging its proxy and partner militias in these countries to attack US and Israeli targets."
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 AM on November 7, 2023
"Khamenei’s call for “political” pressure is part of the Iranian regime’s ongoing effort to cover up its involvement in the Israel-Hamas war. Iranian officials and media have repeatedly framed Iran as a responsible and non-escalatory actor since the start of the war. This narrative ignores the fact that Iran has already facilitated the expansion of the war to Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria by directing and encouraging its proxy and partner militias in these countries to attack US and Israeli targets."
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 AM on November 7, 2023
other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years. And of course then you go back to Hamas to try to get a deal, they’ll have their list of reasons for clinging to violent struggle against Israel and why it is Israeli provocations — the settlements assassinations, sanctions and the blockade necessitate the bombing of Israel with rockets.
Suddenly it isn’t so simple.
posted by interogative mood at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years. And of course then you go back to Hamas to try to get a deal, they’ll have their list of reasons for clinging to violent struggle against Israel and why it is Israeli provocations — the settlements assassinations, sanctions and the blockade necessitate the bombing of Israel with rockets.
Suddenly it isn’t so simple.
posted by interogative mood at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Look. People do not agree with you that Israel has been forced, kicking and screaming, to murder thousands of Palestinians in a month. We know that you think Israel is somehow bound to do this, but it is in fact simple to say they should make an effort to commit fewer crimes against humanity.
I'm not the person you're mad at, but sure, I'll take the bait and say that absolutely yes, Israel was forced into this by an exceptionally brutal attack on Oct. 7. It was an existential attack and they are responding like most any other developed country would to an attack of that scale.
They didn't have to bomb this intensively, and I think it is both foolish and morally wrong to have done so, but even a more restrained military campaign in a situation where Hamas is deliberately located amongst and behind civilians is going to cause a lot of civilian casualties.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not the person you're mad at, but sure, I'll take the bait and say that absolutely yes, Israel was forced into this by an exceptionally brutal attack on Oct. 7. It was an existential attack and they are responding like most any other developed country would to an attack of that scale.
They didn't have to bomb this intensively, and I think it is both foolish and morally wrong to have done so, but even a more restrained military campaign in a situation where Hamas is deliberately located amongst and behind civilians is going to cause a lot of civilian casualties.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm responding to a long line of comments that imply, somehow, that this truly is all of Palestine's fault, and any suffering is something they - not Hamas - have brought on themselves, and which assumes that everything Israel does is both legitimate and justified.
a) "They don't have to bomb that intensively, and it is morally wrong to have done so" is in fact a simple position.
b) The idea that it's somehow *wrong* to say that Israel should restrain themselves - that they were forced to do this, that they have no control over civilian deaths, that they're doing nothing at all rooted in Islamophobia or dehumanization - would also mean that it was somehow wrong to protest the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. If "it's how other powerful states would behave" is used as a justification, what exactly is being justified?
posted by sagc at 12:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
a) "They don't have to bomb that intensively, and it is morally wrong to have done so" is in fact a simple position.
b) The idea that it's somehow *wrong* to say that Israel should restrain themselves - that they were forced to do this, that they have no control over civilian deaths, that they're doing nothing at all rooted in Islamophobia or dehumanization - would also mean that it was somehow wrong to protest the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. If "it's how other powerful states would behave" is used as a justification, what exactly is being justified?
posted by sagc at 12:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Times of Israel analysis today of the "nuclear strike" aftermath: Already battling for political survival, Netanyahu is not restraining his coalition
In recent polls, 70 to 80 percent of Israelis said they believe Netanyahu should resign after the war. Opposition party heads Avigdor Liberman and Merav Michaeli on Monday said that he should quit now.
And Ha'aretz is really going all-in on "the problem is Netanyahu and the far-right shitheads in his government" (loosely paraphrasing) this week, in ways that would have the U.S. right screaming if someone at the NYT or WaPo said it:
Lead editorial yesterday: Fire Israel's Far Right
[Netanyahu] is the one who lent legitimacy to political alliances with admirers of Rabbi Meir Kahane, the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein and the murderer of the Dawabsheh family. Under his leadership, the settlers have begun setting their sights on the West Bank’s Area B, which under the Oslo Accords is under Israeli security control and Palestinian civilian control. And the settlers’ radical “hilltop youth” have moved from being intelligence targets of the Shin Bet security service to serving as ministers, Knesset members, aides and advisers.
Lead editorial today: Just Leave, Netanyahu
On Sunday, it was reported that Netanyahu believes that the calls earlier this year for military reservists to refuse to serve should be investigated as a possible factor in the decision of the head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar, to launch the terrorist attack on October 7...
And as in a standard ritual, once again it was the head of the National Unity Party, Minister Benny Gantz, who called on Netanyahu to retract his remark (“Dodging responsibility and slinging mud during war is an injury to the country,” he tweeted. “The prime minister must retract his words clearly and unambiguously”); and again Netanyahu “retracted” and tweeted: “Hamas started a war against us because it wants to kill us all and not because of any argument within us.” It doesn’t bother him to backtrack. After all, the poison is already in the air and the chain of infection is already at its height...The political establishment must find a way to put an end to Netanyahu’s malignant rule. The price that Israel will pay for his continued reign is too high.
This op-ed from yesterday, ‘My Family’s Blood Is on Netanyahu's Hands’, is also outraged at the attack on reservists for which Netanyahu barely apologized, and quotes the relative of multiple victims on 10/7, including 3 young grandchildren:
Speaking in immense pain, the bereaved father, Gadi Kedem, said: “I blame Netanyahu for the greatest disaster in the history of the state, the blood of my family is on his hands.” Kedem is right. The blood of the 1,400 people who were slain and murdered in the October 7 Hamas attack is on Netanyahu’s hands. The most despicable man in the history of the Jewish people must be ousted, immediately.
Of course, Ha'aretz has also been running opinion pieces like There Will Never Be a Better Time for Israel to Strike in Iran, so you know, there's also that. But the calls in Israel for Netanyahu to go are loud and persistent, if not growing.
posted by mediareport at 12:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
In recent polls, 70 to 80 percent of Israelis said they believe Netanyahu should resign after the war. Opposition party heads Avigdor Liberman and Merav Michaeli on Monday said that he should quit now.
And Ha'aretz is really going all-in on "the problem is Netanyahu and the far-right shitheads in his government" (loosely paraphrasing) this week, in ways that would have the U.S. right screaming if someone at the NYT or WaPo said it:
Lead editorial yesterday: Fire Israel's Far Right
[Netanyahu] is the one who lent legitimacy to political alliances with admirers of Rabbi Meir Kahane, the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein and the murderer of the Dawabsheh family. Under his leadership, the settlers have begun setting their sights on the West Bank’s Area B, which under the Oslo Accords is under Israeli security control and Palestinian civilian control. And the settlers’ radical “hilltop youth” have moved from being intelligence targets of the Shin Bet security service to serving as ministers, Knesset members, aides and advisers.
Lead editorial today: Just Leave, Netanyahu
On Sunday, it was reported that Netanyahu believes that the calls earlier this year for military reservists to refuse to serve should be investigated as a possible factor in the decision of the head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar, to launch the terrorist attack on October 7...
And as in a standard ritual, once again it was the head of the National Unity Party, Minister Benny Gantz, who called on Netanyahu to retract his remark (“Dodging responsibility and slinging mud during war is an injury to the country,” he tweeted. “The prime minister must retract his words clearly and unambiguously”); and again Netanyahu “retracted” and tweeted: “Hamas started a war against us because it wants to kill us all and not because of any argument within us.” It doesn’t bother him to backtrack. After all, the poison is already in the air and the chain of infection is already at its height...The political establishment must find a way to put an end to Netanyahu’s malignant rule. The price that Israel will pay for his continued reign is too high.
This op-ed from yesterday, ‘My Family’s Blood Is on Netanyahu's Hands’, is also outraged at the attack on reservists for which Netanyahu barely apologized, and quotes the relative of multiple victims on 10/7, including 3 young grandchildren:
Speaking in immense pain, the bereaved father, Gadi Kedem, said: “I blame Netanyahu for the greatest disaster in the history of the state, the blood of my family is on his hands.” Kedem is right. The blood of the 1,400 people who were slain and murdered in the October 7 Hamas attack is on Netanyahu’s hands. The most despicable man in the history of the Jewish people must be ousted, immediately.
Of course, Ha'aretz has also been running opinion pieces like There Will Never Be a Better Time for Israel to Strike in Iran, so you know, there's also that. But the calls in Israel for Netanyahu to go are loud and persistent, if not growing.
posted by mediareport at 12:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years
1) Gaza has been under seige since 2006;
2) the occupation is illegal;
3) people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Again, the "unceasing bombardment" isn't happening in a vacuum; it's a response to Israel's ongoing project of settlement and ethnic cleansing. "It's complicated" is just a way to take the focus off the fact that everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
1) Gaza has been under seige since 2006;
2) the occupation is illegal;
3) people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Again, the "unceasing bombardment" isn't happening in a vacuum; it's a response to Israel's ongoing project of settlement and ethnic cleansing. "It's complicated" is just a way to take the focus off the fact that everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is hate speech, the same old libel coming out of new mouths that swallow anti-Jew propaganda unquestioningly.
Is it? I understand that anti-semitism, like all bigotries, does a lot of its work through dog whistles and historical tropes and self-referential themes. If that's what you see going on here, it would help a lot of us in the conversation to have links or elaboration of what you're referring to.
Lots of Americans and Canadians in this thread--we're all click-clacking away from nation states founded on ethnic cleansing. And so the claim that acknowledgment of the Nakba and the ongoing policy (and currently military operations) of the Israeli government is hate speech, it's going to have a hard time landing for some of us, because our intuition is that, indeed, states come into existence through ethnic cleansing.
Pseudonymous Cognomen said,". . . everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing." This statement references fairly mainstream positions, and reflects an embrace of judgments made by entities ranging from the UN to Nelson Mandela to Jimmy Carter to Jewish Voices for Peace, so putting that statement in the same bucket as like, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or something is a stretch for a lot of us. Some context from what you're saying would help us evaluate your statement and think about it for ourselves.
posted by kensington314 at 12:59 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Is it? I understand that anti-semitism, like all bigotries, does a lot of its work through dog whistles and historical tropes and self-referential themes. If that's what you see going on here, it would help a lot of us in the conversation to have links or elaboration of what you're referring to.
Lots of Americans and Canadians in this thread--we're all click-clacking away from nation states founded on ethnic cleansing. And so the claim that acknowledgment of the Nakba and the ongoing policy (and currently military operations) of the Israeli government is hate speech, it's going to have a hard time landing for some of us, because our intuition is that, indeed, states come into existence through ethnic cleansing.
Pseudonymous Cognomen said,". . . everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing." This statement references fairly mainstream positions, and reflects an embrace of judgments made by entities ranging from the UN to Nelson Mandela to Jimmy Carter to Jewish Voices for Peace, so putting that statement in the same bucket as like, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or something is a stretch for a lot of us. Some context from what you're saying would help us evaluate your statement and think about it for ourselves.
posted by kensington314 at 12:59 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
This is hate speech, the same old libel coming out of new mouths that swallow anti-Jew propaganda unquestioningly.
What exactly do you think the Nakba was? A polite request that Palestinians leave their land that they just went along with?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:03 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
What exactly do you think the Nakba was? A polite request that Palestinians leave their land that they just went along with?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:03 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is hate speech
Only if you believe calling things by their proper names is hate speech.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Only if you believe calling things by their proper names is hate speech.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is hate speech
Zionists from the beginning, through Ben Gurion and on to Netanyahu have professed a desire to remove Arabs from the land. There are some semantic questions as to whether “ethnic cleansing” is the right word here, but calling this hate speech stretches that term to the point of meaninglessness.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Zionists from the beginning, through Ben Gurion and on to Netanyahu have professed a desire to remove Arabs from the land. There are some semantic questions as to whether “ethnic cleansing” is the right word here, but calling this hate speech stretches that term to the point of meaninglessness.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
We have tried to move south to the so-called safety zone. In a convoy, we drove along the coastal road, waving white flags. The road was lined with many dead bodies and burned-out vehicles. After just five minutes on the road, we came under fire.I Live in Gaza. Israel’s Horrific Bombing Campaign Is Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen Before.
Israel’s bombings are targeting bakeries, which are the main source of food for people here. Many of the supermarkets, restaurants, and bakeries rely on solar panels, which are also being targeted and destroyed. [...]
We also are relying on Western countries to support the norms that they established after World War II to protect civilians. Their complicity in creating a culture of impunity for Israel is shameful. [...]
It feels like the Israeli strategy is to push 2.4 million of us out of Gaza and into Sinai.
posted by ssg at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Please avoid turning this thread into a 1-on-1 discussion. Also, if you think something posted in this (or any other) thread is hate speech please contact us.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Ha ha all right then. I guess you win! If I seem cranky it's because my sister called me from California this morning crying because an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters and now she wonders if the same will happen to her.
But I'm sure that the anti-Israel rhetoric had nothing to do with that! Because "anti-Israel does not equal anti-Jew", right? And being anti-Israel definitely doesn't spill over and dovetail into Jew hatred, right?
Shout out to interrogative mood and other commenters who have mightily tried to explain things with much greater patience and been rebuffed. It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist. And I'm done, I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I'm sure that the anti-Israel rhetoric had nothing to do with that! Because "anti-Israel does not equal anti-Jew", right? And being anti-Israel definitely doesn't spill over and dovetail into Jew hatred, right?
Shout out to interrogative mood and other commenters who have mightily tried to explain things with much greater patience and been rebuffed. It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist. And I'm done, I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
If anyone feels kind and would like to try to explain, I'd be interested in knowing why it is antisemitic to say that Israel's founding involved ethnic cleansing?
I get why that's not NICE to say, but I'm not sure why it's antisemitic to say. And from my POV it would appear to be a true statement. Obviously truth can be stated in ways that are offensive, bigoted, or otherwise wrong.
Can someone please tell me where the antisemitism enters? I've broken it down so hopefully we can identify the specific point that is antisemitic.
I swear I'm not sealioning here. Nor JAQing off.
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
Obviously no one has any obligation to educate me, but if anyone feels willing to do so I'd appreciate it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I get why that's not NICE to say, but I'm not sure why it's antisemitic to say. And from my POV it would appear to be a true statement. Obviously truth can be stated in ways that are offensive, bigoted, or otherwise wrong.
Can someone please tell me where the antisemitism enters? I've broken it down so hopefully we can identify the specific point that is antisemitic.
- A person believes it is true that from the first few centuries of the diaspora until around 1940 Jews were a minority in Israel
- A person believes it is true that following WWII a large numebr of Jews who had not previously lived in Israel moved to Israel
- A person believes that following a period of violence, the Jewish population succeeded in evicting a very large number of Palestinian people who had previously lived in Israel from their homes and expelling them from Israel
- People call the expulsion of Palestinian people from their homes and Israel "ethnic cleansing".
- People state that Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing
- People state that the government of Israel has continued a project of ethnic cleansing since then, with varying degrees of intensity.
I swear I'm not sealioning here. Nor JAQing off.
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
Obviously no one has any obligation to educate me, but if anyone feels willing to do so I'd appreciate it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters
This happened not too far from me; there was an altercation of some kind, he fell or was pushed and struck his head on the pavement. I find this appalling and don't think there's any call for anyone on either side to escalate what ought to be peaceful demonstrations into physical aggression and confrontation, nor do I think that antisemitism has any place in such protests and demonstrations. However given the circumstances of what happened, framing it as "was killed by pro-Palestinian protesters" is questionable.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:50 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
This happened not too far from me; there was an altercation of some kind, he fell or was pushed and struck his head on the pavement. I find this appalling and don't think there's any call for anyone on either side to escalate what ought to be peaceful demonstrations into physical aggression and confrontation, nor do I think that antisemitism has any place in such protests and demonstrations. However given the circumstances of what happened, framing it as "was killed by pro-Palestinian protesters" is questionable.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:50 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
It's that Simpsons gag about Fox News: Not Racist but #1 with Racists.
The ugly truth is that there is currently intersectionality between anticolonialists and antisemites and for me, being someone who's very anticolonial, that's personally fucking terrifying. Everything I read, everything I process, everything about what people write about the history of the region I need to run triple filtered through my "is this antisemitic in any form?" and "is this dehumanizing a group?" and a bunch of other information filters and context and nuance because I know there are factions out there who will happily use this fucked up situation for their own evil ends.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's that Simpsons gag about Fox News: Not Racist but #1 with Racists.
The ugly truth is that there is currently intersectionality between anticolonialists and antisemites and for me, being someone who's very anticolonial, that's personally fucking terrifying. Everything I read, everything I process, everything about what people write about the history of the region I need to run triple filtered through my "is this antisemitic in any form?" and "is this dehumanizing a group?" and a bunch of other information filters and context and nuance because I know there are factions out there who will happily use this fucked up situation for their own evil ends.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The “Zionism is racism, no it isn’t you antisemite” argument has been ongoing for a long time. If you want to understand or read the Wikipedia article on UN resolution 3379 and its repeal. Then you can read this article by the American Jewish Committee to understand why many Jewish people see it that way. Or this article from the Anti-Defamation League. Peter Beinart provides a summary of the counter points in this article in the Guardian.
I find the attacks on Zionism to be counterproductive to good discussions as whatever the intent they are heard as an attack on the identity of many Jewish Israelis and supporters of Israel and this comes across as antisemitic.
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination. That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t also have the right to self determination. There is a long history of Jewish Israelis dismissing Palestinians as Arabs and Palestinians dismissing Israelis as “Jews” and a lot of time was wasted and continues to be wasted in my opinion by people who seem to think the other side should leave and give it all to their side.
posted by interogative mood at 2:18 PM on November 7, 2023
I find the attacks on Zionism to be counterproductive to good discussions as whatever the intent they are heard as an attack on the identity of many Jewish Israelis and supporters of Israel and this comes across as antisemitic.
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination. That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t also have the right to self determination. There is a long history of Jewish Israelis dismissing Palestinians as Arabs and Palestinians dismissing Israelis as “Jews” and a lot of time was wasted and continues to be wasted in my opinion by people who seem to think the other side should leave and give it all to their side.
posted by interogative mood at 2:18 PM on November 7, 2023
The right to self determination is not the same as the right to kick people off their land. This distinction applies to all peoples.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:21 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:21 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
If only there were a word for when you hold an entire group of people responsible for the actions of a few.
posted by Jarcat at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I choice a ancient place that tells me alot about occupation. Rachel's Tomb.
Biblical, a shrine for many. A long read but this piece from 2015 is telling.
"Perhaps Rachel’s Tomb is too much of an in? I think about my friends on the other side of the wall, at Aida refugee camp, who were deported by Israel in 1948 from villages surrounding Bet-Shemesh. I can’t find an easy answer to this paradox. I’m angry at us, at myself, and I’m dying to get the hell out of there."
So Palestinians who throw rocks and fire bomb Rachel's Tomb are they attacking the concept of sacred/archeological places
or an Israeli occupation that is illegal.
I asked in the other thread do tje Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves.
and I ask in a similar vein, do the Israeli people have a right to defend themselves.
The main point of contention is why and when and how often to what extent.
The its complicated situation to me seems rather based in time as one would have to be almost a scholar be able to have a firm grasp of this situation historically. so saying it's complex means you need a lot of time to study the situation. so if time is a factor then it sort of gave itself away cuz time is a factor time, there, its everything, now, each second. retrospective analysis only fuels a conflicts inherent justifications for both sides.
Israel declared war on Hamas and de facto the Palestinian people and Iran.
miracle political play would have a new Israeli cabinet and broker a deal to have Hamas surrender control of the Gaza strip to anyone but themselves and an exit plan for them to Iran wherever. The factor im sure of is no peace with Hamas, that's not on me but it seems to be the reality.
posted by clavdivs at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023
Biblical, a shrine for many. A long read but this piece from 2015 is telling.
"Perhaps Rachel’s Tomb is too much of an in? I think about my friends on the other side of the wall, at Aida refugee camp, who were deported by Israel in 1948 from villages surrounding Bet-Shemesh. I can’t find an easy answer to this paradox. I’m angry at us, at myself, and I’m dying to get the hell out of there."
So Palestinians who throw rocks and fire bomb Rachel's Tomb are they attacking the concept of sacred/archeological places
or an Israeli occupation that is illegal.
I asked in the other thread do tje Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves.
and I ask in a similar vein, do the Israeli people have a right to defend themselves.
The main point of contention is why and when and how often to what extent.
The its complicated situation to me seems rather based in time as one would have to be almost a scholar be able to have a firm grasp of this situation historically. so saying it's complex means you need a lot of time to study the situation. so if time is a factor then it sort of gave itself away cuz time is a factor time, there, its everything, now, each second. retrospective analysis only fuels a conflicts inherent justifications for both sides.
Israel declared war on Hamas and de facto the Palestinian people and Iran.
miracle political play would have a new Israeli cabinet and broker a deal to have Hamas surrender control of the Gaza strip to anyone but themselves and an exit plan for them to Iran wherever. The factor im sure of is no peace with Hamas, that's not on me but it seems to be the reality.
posted by clavdivs at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters
That is quite a description, given how little is currently known about the undeniably tragic fall and later death, according to the article the words themselves link:
In fact, Fryhoff said, the chief of police had driven through the scene about 15 minutes before the altercation and noticed "no indication of impending violence." Fryhoff said the sheriff's office got multiple calls of an assault and an unconscious male bleeding around 3:20 p.m. local time. Responders arrived within minutes to find Kessler conscious and responsive, but bleeding from the head and mouth. Medical personnel provided aid at the scene and transported him to a nearby hospital, which listed him in critical condition. He was conscious when deputies contacted him at the hospital around 4 p.m.
Young said Kessler's condition deteriorated overnight, and he was pronounced dead just after 1 a.m. on Monday. Law enforcement launched an investigation into his death some two hours later, after being notified by the hospital...Fryhoff said the suspect was one of the people who called 911 for Kessler, and willingly stayed at the scene afterwards to answer officers' questions.
Let's what any video turns up.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
That is quite a description, given how little is currently known about the undeniably tragic fall and later death, according to the article the words themselves link:
In fact, Fryhoff said, the chief of police had driven through the scene about 15 minutes before the altercation and noticed "no indication of impending violence." Fryhoff said the sheriff's office got multiple calls of an assault and an unconscious male bleeding around 3:20 p.m. local time. Responders arrived within minutes to find Kessler conscious and responsive, but bleeding from the head and mouth. Medical personnel provided aid at the scene and transported him to a nearby hospital, which listed him in critical condition. He was conscious when deputies contacted him at the hospital around 4 p.m.
Young said Kessler's condition deteriorated overnight, and he was pronounced dead just after 1 a.m. on Monday. Law enforcement launched an investigation into his death some two hours later, after being notified by the hospital...Fryhoff said the suspect was one of the people who called 911 for Kessler, and willingly stayed at the scene afterwards to answer officers' questions.
Let's what any video turns up.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
The right to self determination is not the same as the right to kick people off their land. This distinction applies to all peoples.
Yes. It applies to the settlers, Netanyahu and to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
I thought I was pretty clear in my posts that Palestinians also have a right to self determination and that the settlements and the behavior of settlers has been a serious problem.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 7, 2023
Yes. It applies to the settlers, Netanyahu and to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
I thought I was pretty clear in my posts that Palestinians also have a right to self determination and that the settlements and the behavior of settlers has been a serious problem.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 7, 2023
Mod note: Comment removed. Let's avoid the argument of "X side has been suffering for longer than Y side" as it just spirals out to a derail.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist.
There is a difference between a flat "Israel has no right to exist" and naked horror over the current state of that nation. And by "current," many do not mean the last three weeks, but rather the last few decades.
A better Israel -- a non-apartheid Israel -- is possible, at least in theory, over time. I don't know how to convince Israelis to decide that regime change at home is better than what's happening now. I don't know how to thread the needle of warring hardliner governments, or how to come up with even a temporary solution that large numbers on both sides of the conflict could live with.
But influential nations of the world declaring loud disapproval of bombing civilian areas, much less that Israel's heavily-favored-nation status amongst them is in jeopardy should they continue doing that, is where it ought to start.
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on November 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a difference between a flat "Israel has no right to exist" and naked horror over the current state of that nation. And by "current," many do not mean the last three weeks, but rather the last few decades.
A better Israel -- a non-apartheid Israel -- is possible, at least in theory, over time. I don't know how to convince Israelis to decide that regime change at home is better than what's happening now. I don't know how to thread the needle of warring hardliner governments, or how to come up with even a temporary solution that large numbers on both sides of the conflict could live with.
But influential nations of the world declaring loud disapproval of bombing civilian areas, much less that Israel's heavily-favored-nation status amongst them is in jeopardy should they continue doing that, is where it ought to start.
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on November 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
The April 25th-May 13 campaign to take control of Jaffa was largely conducted by the Irgun, not the Haganah and resulted in one of the first major waves of refugees with about 4000 Arabs left in the city when it ended. It was used as a justification for the Arabs states to formally enter the war, although they had previously rejected the partition plan and sent troops to fight under the Arab Liberation Army. The British had tried to defend Jaffa and stop the fighting up until they left on April 30th. In the 5 months preceding the attack over 1000 residents of Tel Aviv had been killed by sniper fire and attacks from Jaffa.
Irgun’s doctrine of revisionist Zionism rejected the partition plan and there was a near civil war between them and the IDF resulting in the Altalena Affair in June of 1948 after which they were brought under the IDF and more pragmatic Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion came to dominate politics. Former Irgun members would enter the mainstream of Israeli politics in the 1970s under Menacham Begin and the Likkud party.
posted by interogative mood at 3:30 PM on November 7, 2023
Irgun’s doctrine of revisionist Zionism rejected the partition plan and there was a near civil war between them and the IDF resulting in the Altalena Affair in June of 1948 after which they were brought under the IDF and more pragmatic Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion came to dominate politics. Former Irgun members would enter the mainstream of Israeli politics in the 1970s under Menacham Begin and the Likkud party.
posted by interogative mood at 3:30 PM on November 7, 2023
interogative mood, I don't want to run afoul of engaging in "1 on 1" discussions, but i am curious . . . You have indicated that you have some long-term involvement with the Israel/Palestine situation. Would it be inappropriate of me to ask what, generally speaking, that involvement is? I'm sincerely trying to figure out how to interpret some of the things you post, and I feel like there's some context missing.
Mods, apologies if this oversteps . . .
posted by pt68 at 3:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mods, apologies if this oversteps . . .
posted by pt68 at 3:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that
Hamas is the government of Gaza, all organizations are under their direct control. Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza. They aren't a democratic government with independent institutions. This isn't in dispute.
posted by xdvesper at 4:10 PM on November 7, 2023
Hamas is the government of Gaza, all organizations are under their direct control. Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza. They aren't a democratic government with independent institutions. This isn't in dispute.
posted by xdvesper at 4:10 PM on November 7, 2023
Let's what any video turns up.
Inconclusive, contradictory reports. FBI has been notified which is probably procedure. Sad though.
But this isn't inconclusive.
no one was hurt though
posted by clavdivs at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Inconclusive, contradictory reports. FBI has been notified which is probably procedure. Sad though.
But this isn't inconclusive.
no one was hurt though
posted by clavdivs at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza.
We've been over this already; you're ignoring what has gone before in this conversation. Studies by the U.N. and others have found no major discrepancies in the past between Hamas casualty figures in the heat of battle and those estimated by others after the fact:
Historically, the Gaza Health Ministry’s figures have been found largely accurate. News organizations, human rights groups, and international governments and bodies (including the United Nations) cite them in the moment; and human rights groups that have worked to verify the ministry’s data in previous conflicts have found it generally reliable...In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points...
Omar Shakir of Human Rights Watch, which has been monitoring human rights abuses in Gaza for three decades, told the Guardian the group has “generally found the data that comes out of the ministry of health to be reliable.”
More:
The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry's counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel's tallies.
Those are recent links, and similar links have been discussed above. There are criticisms of the Hamas counts at both links, but the overall reliability of Hamas casualty figures has been considered solid by many observers for years. It's difficult to understand what you're doing in these threads sometimes; is it some sort of war of attrition? I dunno, but if you have new information, feel free to share.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
We've been over this already; you're ignoring what has gone before in this conversation. Studies by the U.N. and others have found no major discrepancies in the past between Hamas casualty figures in the heat of battle and those estimated by others after the fact:
Historically, the Gaza Health Ministry’s figures have been found largely accurate. News organizations, human rights groups, and international governments and bodies (including the United Nations) cite them in the moment; and human rights groups that have worked to verify the ministry’s data in previous conflicts have found it generally reliable...In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points...
Omar Shakir of Human Rights Watch, which has been monitoring human rights abuses in Gaza for three decades, told the Guardian the group has “generally found the data that comes out of the ministry of health to be reliable.”
More:
The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry's counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel's tallies.
Those are recent links, and similar links have been discussed above. There are criticisms of the Hamas counts at both links, but the overall reliability of Hamas casualty figures has been considered solid by many observers for years. It's difficult to understand what you're doing in these threads sometimes; is it some sort of war of attrition? I dunno, but if you have new information, feel free to share.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mediareport, if you read the original post, I didn't advocate that we should automatically distrust what Hamas says. I'm saying that we would take what Hamas says at face value, just like we would take what Israel or IDF says at face value, and if they provide video and photo evidence, that's even better. Some other poster was trying to police what evidence was / was not allowed in the discourse.
By this standard, all parties have made statements which some posters disagree with:
Hamas says they didn't kill civilians BBC Interview.
Israeli Ambassador says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza
The US still doesn't believe the Gaza Ministry of Health casualty figures.
All statements and evidence needs to be judged on its merits, no one is given a free pass. If the Israel government or military posts some images and video of real-time operations in Gaza, I find that no more or less acceptable than real-time images from Hamas about the impact of bomb strikes, and in fact, should be encouraged - we want transparency and verifiability from all parties.
posted by xdvesper at 4:50 PM on November 7, 2023
By this standard, all parties have made statements which some posters disagree with:
Hamas says they didn't kill civilians BBC Interview.
Israeli Ambassador says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza
The US still doesn't believe the Gaza Ministry of Health casualty figures.
All statements and evidence needs to be judged on its merits, no one is given a free pass. If the Israel government or military posts some images and video of real-time operations in Gaza, I find that no more or less acceptable than real-time images from Hamas about the impact of bomb strikes, and in fact, should be encouraged - we want transparency and verifiability from all parties.
posted by xdvesper at 4:50 PM on November 7, 2023
I haven't seen much or any passing mention on what's happening with Rashida Tlaib (and truthfully being outsider I don't fully follow the technicalities on what's being mobilized against her). In any case, Ryan Grim:
Jamie Raskin is on the House floor describing how unusual it would be in congressional history to censure a member of Congress for their speech.
Stepping back, it is indeed incredible to move a censure vote for speech, no matter the speech.
That it's happening to the only Palestinian member of Congress while Gaza is being flattened makes it that much more extraordinary. What a dark moment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Jamie Raskin is on the House floor describing how unusual it would be in congressional history to censure a member of Congress for their speech.
Stepping back, it is indeed incredible to move a censure vote for speech, no matter the speech.
That it's happening to the only Palestinian member of Congress while Gaza is being flattened makes it that much more extraordinary. What a dark moment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Voice of America video: Israel's construction industry is asking the government to let it hire 100,000 migrant workers from India to fix its severe labor shortage after the 90,000 Palestinian workers it had been using all suddenly lost their work permits.
The president of the Israeli Builders Association says he "no longer sees a future" for Palestinian workers in Israel.
More:
Earlier this year in May, the Indian government entered into a bilateral agreement with Israel to facilitate the immigration of 42,000 Indian workers....Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks. India had last month launched Operation Ajay to facilitate the return of Indian citizens from Israel, a mass evacuation which has not yet been completed.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The president of the Israeli Builders Association says he "no longer sees a future" for Palestinian workers in Israel.
More:
Earlier this year in May, the Indian government entered into a bilateral agreement with Israel to facilitate the immigration of 42,000 Indian workers....Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks. India had last month launched Operation Ajay to facilitate the return of Indian citizens from Israel, a mass evacuation which has not yet been completed.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t want to get into too many recent details but, since this keeps coming up. I first went to Israel/ Palestine at 17 as part of a program where I spent a few weeks with Palestinian and Israeli teens. This lead me to pursue a degree in Middle Eastern Studies. I made additional trips in college including a summer during the election of Rabin where I was based out of East Jerusalem.
I did not pursue the professional opportunities that were opened to me from these experiences. I was a bit depressed and burned out by some of the things I saw and experienced before. You only run for your life from actual gunfire a few times before your own sense of mortality sinks in. I still have nightmares about the time I saw a Palestinian kid get shot near manger square in Bethlehem, got tear gassed during the riot that followed, and somehow my little group managed to get refuge from the Sisters at their convent near the Milk Grotto while we waited it for stuff to calm down and get a taxi back to Jerusalem. There are other memories of running for a bomb shelter while visiting a kibbutz in northern Israel as air raid sirens sounded. Anyway 9/11 happened and it was just horrible and I abandoned any ideas of a career path in relief and development or diplomacy for the siren song of the dot com tech world.
The early 2000s technology startup world was a lot safer, exciting and less grim. So I rebuilt my life around coding and computers. I never fully left my Middle East studies fascination behind. I make the occasional visit to the region every few years with groups that are working for peace and I send them regular donations. I keep in touch with a people I regard as friends made along the way. I read books and articles. My Arabic and Hebrew is now quite rusty though and the frequency of those visits has declined. The last month has been horrible; but I’m starting to get some updates from friends I’ve made over the years.
As I’ve come to know more Israelis and Palestinians my views have become much more moderate. I have worked on listening to people and trying to understand their perspectives and history under this conflict. Maybe thats the wrong approach but that’s where I’ve ended up.
posted by interogative mood at 6:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [28 favorites]
I did not pursue the professional opportunities that were opened to me from these experiences. I was a bit depressed and burned out by some of the things I saw and experienced before. You only run for your life from actual gunfire a few times before your own sense of mortality sinks in. I still have nightmares about the time I saw a Palestinian kid get shot near manger square in Bethlehem, got tear gassed during the riot that followed, and somehow my little group managed to get refuge from the Sisters at their convent near the Milk Grotto while we waited it for stuff to calm down and get a taxi back to Jerusalem. There are other memories of running for a bomb shelter while visiting a kibbutz in northern Israel as air raid sirens sounded. Anyway 9/11 happened and it was just horrible and I abandoned any ideas of a career path in relief and development or diplomacy for the siren song of the dot com tech world.
The early 2000s technology startup world was a lot safer, exciting and less grim. So I rebuilt my life around coding and computers. I never fully left my Middle East studies fascination behind. I make the occasional visit to the region every few years with groups that are working for peace and I send them regular donations. I keep in touch with a people I regard as friends made along the way. I read books and articles. My Arabic and Hebrew is now quite rusty though and the frequency of those visits has declined. The last month has been horrible; but I’m starting to get some updates from friends I’ve made over the years.
As I’ve come to know more Israelis and Palestinians my views have become much more moderate. I have worked on listening to people and trying to understand their perspectives and history under this conflict. Maybe thats the wrong approach but that’s where I’ve ended up.
posted by interogative mood at 6:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [28 favorites]
Erin Conroy quoting Milan Kundera: "The first step in liquidating a people...erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was. The world around it will forget even faster."
Milan Kundera, The Book of Laughter and Forgetting (1978)
The other thing I don't see shared here is the bombings/destructions of the universities in Gaza. I believe, as of today, none is left standing. I've seen people commenting on the latest death of a Palestinian journalist that this makes it 11 so far (not counting families).
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Milan Kundera, The Book of Laughter and Forgetting (1978)
The other thing I don't see shared here is the bombings/destructions of the universities in Gaza. I believe, as of today, none is left standing. I've seen people commenting on the latest death of a Palestinian journalist that this makes it 11 so far (not counting families).
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
At least 39 journalists have been killed in the past month, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (including four Israeli journalists).
posted by ssg at 7:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 7:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
House censures Tlaib for Israel criticisms
At least from the initial reporting that I read, it was the "river to the sea" part that really tipped the balance on this:
Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the minority leader, said in a statement before the vote that echoing “slogans that are widely understood as calling for the complete destruction of Israel — such as ‘from the river to the sea’ — does not advance progress toward a two-state solution. Instead, it unacceptably risks further polarization, division and incitement to violence.”
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
At least from the initial reporting that I read, it was the "river to the sea" part that really tipped the balance on this:
Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the minority leader, said in a statement before the vote that echoing “slogans that are widely understood as calling for the complete destruction of Israel — such as ‘from the river to the sea’ — does not advance progress toward a two-state solution. Instead, it unacceptably risks further polarization, division and incitement to violence.”
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Collective & individual trauma in Palestine/Israel with Dr. Gabor Maté
This question of anti-Semitism. Yes, there's anti-Semitism in the world, and there will be some anti-Semites who will use the actions of Israel to prove how evil Jews are. There are some people like that, there always have been people like that, but antisemitism has got nothing to do with Jews in the sense that it doesn't originate from anything that Jews do or don't do. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of racism, originates in some sickness of the soul and the mind in the racist. Racism is rising in today's world; if you want to see racism, look what happens to Muslims in Europe right now, in France. You want to see racism, look at anti-Muslim sentiments in North America. There's also rising anti-Semitism in North America, absolutely true. As society is fragmenting, getting more toxic, you're going to see more and more racism. The question is, does criticism of Israel contribute to that? Well, and especially I've been told, apart from the fact that I've been told that I betrayed my own people, well no I didn’t, because I don't identify my own people with the state of Israel. It’s the state of Israel that identifies Jews with its actions, but I don’t.
… But for Gods sakes, when Holocaust survivors, and I'm not the only one, people, there are many, stand up against what's happening in Palestine, against the actions of the Israeli government. When Jews get arrested in New York for protesting the war. When Jews get arrested in Jerusalem for protesting the war. When Amira Hass, when Ilan Pape, when Gideon Levy and other Israelis speak out against the oppression of Palestinians, is that going to increase anti-Semitism? Or will the people see, non-Jews see, that Jews are like everybody else, there's differences of opinion but you can't pin the actions of a government on a whole people. Now which is more likely to support anti-Semitism, Jewish silence, right or wrong, or Jewish speaking out, right or wrong? So this argument that criticizing Israel, especially by Jews, foments anti-Semitism, I mean it's just so illogical it's barely even worth talking about, in my view.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
This question of anti-Semitism. Yes, there's anti-Semitism in the world, and there will be some anti-Semites who will use the actions of Israel to prove how evil Jews are. There are some people like that, there always have been people like that, but antisemitism has got nothing to do with Jews in the sense that it doesn't originate from anything that Jews do or don't do. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of racism, originates in some sickness of the soul and the mind in the racist. Racism is rising in today's world; if you want to see racism, look what happens to Muslims in Europe right now, in France. You want to see racism, look at anti-Muslim sentiments in North America. There's also rising anti-Semitism in North America, absolutely true. As society is fragmenting, getting more toxic, you're going to see more and more racism. The question is, does criticism of Israel contribute to that? Well, and especially I've been told, apart from the fact that I've been told that I betrayed my own people, well no I didn’t, because I don't identify my own people with the state of Israel. It’s the state of Israel that identifies Jews with its actions, but I don’t.
… But for Gods sakes, when Holocaust survivors, and I'm not the only one, people, there are many, stand up against what's happening in Palestine, against the actions of the Israeli government. When Jews get arrested in New York for protesting the war. When Jews get arrested in Jerusalem for protesting the war. When Amira Hass, when Ilan Pape, when Gideon Levy and other Israelis speak out against the oppression of Palestinians, is that going to increase anti-Semitism? Or will the people see, non-Jews see, that Jews are like everybody else, there's differences of opinion but you can't pin the actions of a government on a whole people. Now which is more likely to support anti-Semitism, Jewish silence, right or wrong, or Jewish speaking out, right or wrong? So this argument that criticizing Israel, especially by Jews, foments anti-Semitism, I mean it's just so illogical it's barely even worth talking about, in my view.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks.
India has indeed come full 180 degrees from its original support for Palestine. India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and Mahatma Gandhi, were strongly opposed to the creation of the Israeli state. India even voted against it at the UN.
Yet within hours of the Oct 7th attack on Israel, Narendra Modi was among the first of the world leaders to respond, condemning the terror attack and pledging to stand in solidarity with Israel - providing full support without a balancing statement that usually follows it. Israel's ambassador took the statement at face value and thanked India for their 100% support.
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
The Guardian: India takes a strong pro-Israel stance under Modi in departure from the past.
Japan Times: India's realism comes of age in response to Israel-Hamas war.
posted by xdvesper at 10:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
India has indeed come full 180 degrees from its original support for Palestine. India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and Mahatma Gandhi, were strongly opposed to the creation of the Israeli state. India even voted against it at the UN.
Yet within hours of the Oct 7th attack on Israel, Narendra Modi was among the first of the world leaders to respond, condemning the terror attack and pledging to stand in solidarity with Israel - providing full support without a balancing statement that usually follows it. Israel's ambassador took the statement at face value and thanked India for their 100% support.
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
The Guardian: India takes a strong pro-Israel stance under Modi in departure from the past.
Japan Times: India's realism comes of age in response to Israel-Hamas war.
posted by xdvesper at 10:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The representatives who voted to censure Tlaib are evil.
There's usually gray area in discussions of morality, so I don't often use the word evil, but punishing someone for refusing to go along with the genocide of her friends, relatives, and country is pure evil.
posted by zymil at 1:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
There's usually gray area in discussions of morality, so I don't often use the word evil, but punishing someone for refusing to go along with the genocide of her friends, relatives, and country is pure evil.
posted by zymil at 1:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and has stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
And while we’re on the subject of 9/11s, Gaza has suffered 3 times as many deaths as the US did on 9/11 in the past month, and of course, only has a population of 2 million.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:22 AM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and has stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
And while we’re on the subject of 9/11s, Gaza has suffered 3 times as many deaths as the US did on 9/11 in the past month, and of course, only has a population of 2 million.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:22 AM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
B'Tselem:
"Israel is killing more, and more, and more civilians. More than 10,000 people in Gaza have been killed, over half of them women and children. There cannot be any justification for such a horrific death toll. Entire streets have been reduced to rubble, with people trapped underneath. More than a million people have been turned into refugees, some killed while fleeing, others where they sought shelter from the bombings. Thousands are missing, their fate unknown." Thread here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:33 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Israel is killing more, and more, and more civilians. More than 10,000 people in Gaza have been killed, over half of them women and children. There cannot be any justification for such a horrific death toll. Entire streets have been reduced to rubble, with people trapped underneath. More than a million people have been turned into refugees, some killed while fleeing, others where they sought shelter from the bombings. Thousands are missing, their fate unknown." Thread here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:33 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
House censures Tlaib for Israel criticisms
When Israel joins forces with neo-Nazi Space Laser Republicans and cynical Dems, anything evil is possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:51 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
When Israel joins forces with neo-Nazi Space Laser Republicans and cynical Dems, anything evil is possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:51 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
An American nurse who just got out of Gaza describes what she saws - interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN
Palestinian children in Gaza hold press conference pleading for protection. - Al-Jazeera
posted by toastyk at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Palestinian children in Gaza hold press conference pleading for protection. - Al-Jazeera
posted by toastyk at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Earlier I asked how certain true statements about Isarel's history and the current actions of its government were antisemitic and how one could use more appropriate language to discuss the history and actions of Israel.
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
Nothing in any of those statements is antisemitic and claims to the contrary are either understandable (if false) due to emotional distress on the part of the person making the claim, or they are malicious efforts to silence legitimate criticsm of Israel. In either case those accusations can be dismissed either with sympathy, or contempt, depending on the person making the false accusation.
Actual, REAL, antisemitism is wrong and I'm not arguing for it to be tolerable or accepted. But bullshit claims that "it's all about the Benjamins" or "Israel was founded by settler colonialism" or "Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing" and so on are all antisemitic dogwhistles are now provable to create real world harm rather than merely being underhanded ways to score internet points.
There is no reason for people to use deliberately hurtful language, nor to be rude, but that's not the same as triple checking every innocuous statement for the slightest trace of anything that could be maliciously twisted into a fase accusation of antisemitism by the motivated reasoning and pseudologic of bad actors. Nor is it the same as using the softest possible language to describe the evil being undertaken by the Israeli government.
Hamas is morally wrong and the attack on 10/7 was a crime against humanity and should be condemned. But that doesn't make what Israel is doing now any less genocidal, and it doesn't make saying so antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
Nothing in any of those statements is antisemitic and claims to the contrary are either understandable (if false) due to emotional distress on the part of the person making the claim, or they are malicious efforts to silence legitimate criticsm of Israel. In either case those accusations can be dismissed either with sympathy, or contempt, depending on the person making the false accusation.
Actual, REAL, antisemitism is wrong and I'm not arguing for it to be tolerable or accepted. But bullshit claims that "it's all about the Benjamins" or "Israel was founded by settler colonialism" or "Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing" and so on are all antisemitic dogwhistles are now provable to create real world harm rather than merely being underhanded ways to score internet points.
There is no reason for people to use deliberately hurtful language, nor to be rude, but that's not the same as triple checking every innocuous statement for the slightest trace of anything that could be maliciously twisted into a fase accusation of antisemitism by the motivated reasoning and pseudologic of bad actors. Nor is it the same as using the softest possible language to describe the evil being undertaken by the Israeli government.
Hamas is morally wrong and the attack on 10/7 was a crime against humanity and should be condemned. But that doesn't make what Israel is doing now any less genocidal, and it doesn't make saying so antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Earlier I asked how certain true statements about Isarel's history and the current actions of its government were antisemitic and how one could use more appropriate language to discuss the history and actions of Israel.
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
And meanwhile some of the same Republicans who voted to censure Tlaib are also appearing on Fox News to talk about how George Soros is funding pro-Palestinian demonstrations, if one wants to talk about actual antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
And meanwhile some of the same Republicans who voted to censure Tlaib are also appearing on Fox News to talk about how George Soros is funding pro-Palestinian demonstrations, if one wants to talk about actual antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and...stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
Yeah, here's a quick example of the striking parallels between Netanyahu's Likud and Modi's BJP, from August:
Abdul Rasheed says police locked him in a bus as a bulldozer demolished his shops in India’s northern Haryana state where a Muslim-majority district saw communal clashes last week.
“I was heartbroken. My family and children depended on the rent we received from the shops. We had rented shops to both Hindus and Muslims,” he told Al Jazeera on Sunday, adding that the authorities “gave no notice or showed any order, and bulldozed everything. This is vengeance. They are destroying hotels, shops and homes. There is no appeal and hearing,” the 51-year-old said. “We have been handed a begging bowl.”
Rasheed’s is among more than 300 Muslim homes and businesses bulldozed by Haryana’s right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government since Thursday in yet another instance of collective – and selective – punishment of a community over religious violence...
almost all the homes, shops – both concrete and moveable – and shanties bulldozed in the aftermath of the violence belong to Muslims.
This happened after a mosque was burned and an imam killed by Hindu nationalists, after a Hindu parade announced by a man accused of murdering two Muslims for transporting beef was stopped by a Muslim crowd throwing stones. The police are seen as looking the other way on the arson and murder.
So yeah, it's no surprise Modi jumped to support Netanyahu. The question remains whether he'll happily send 100,000 of his country's workers to help the Israeli Builders Association finish some apartments right now, though.
posted by mediareport at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah, here's a quick example of the striking parallels between Netanyahu's Likud and Modi's BJP, from August:
Abdul Rasheed says police locked him in a bus as a bulldozer demolished his shops in India’s northern Haryana state where a Muslim-majority district saw communal clashes last week.
“I was heartbroken. My family and children depended on the rent we received from the shops. We had rented shops to both Hindus and Muslims,” he told Al Jazeera on Sunday, adding that the authorities “gave no notice or showed any order, and bulldozed everything. This is vengeance. They are destroying hotels, shops and homes. There is no appeal and hearing,” the 51-year-old said. “We have been handed a begging bowl.”
Rasheed’s is among more than 300 Muslim homes and businesses bulldozed by Haryana’s right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government since Thursday in yet another instance of collective – and selective – punishment of a community over religious violence...
almost all the homes, shops – both concrete and moveable – and shanties bulldozed in the aftermath of the violence belong to Muslims.
This happened after a mosque was burned and an imam killed by Hindu nationalists, after a Hindu parade announced by a man accused of murdering two Muslims for transporting beef was stopped by a Muslim crowd throwing stones. The police are seen as looking the other way on the arson and murder.
So yeah, it's no surprise Modi jumped to support Netanyahu. The question remains whether he'll happily send 100,000 of his country's workers to help the Israeli Builders Association finish some apartments right now, though.
posted by mediareport at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
The NY Times has posted an article featuring quotes from their recent conversations with various Hamas leaders.
It includes a lot of details about Yahya Sinwar the leader of Hamas in Gaza since 2017
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It includes a lot of details about Yahya Sinwar the leader of Hamas in Gaza since 2017
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
History is important, but at this point I feel like the few people arguing that Israel rocks and has rights and everything is Palestinians’ fault, or that People Under Occupation are just naturally expected to murder families because Zionists are 1) cheering for their chosen side no matter what, and 2) proving the point that this is incredibly complicated and this is not a cartoon good guys and bad guys situation.
Speaking of which, can we please see fewer pro-Israel and -Palestine rallies and more PEACE rallies? I’m an atheist and I DGAF whose sky god wins and who gets to be Mayor of Bible Town. Everyone’s wrong except, naturally, me.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking of which, can we please see fewer pro-Israel and -Palestine rallies and more PEACE rallies? I’m an atheist and I DGAF whose sky god wins and who gets to be Mayor of Bible Town. Everyone’s wrong except, naturally, me.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can’t tell where your irony starts and stops, but “ugh this is complicated can’t everybody just chill?? Also religion = bad amirite” is ridiculously tone deaf in this thread.
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
Peace doesn’t change policy, and there is one side who is an internationally recognized state government that receives tons of bombs and aid from the West. There’s currently one side who has much more power and has killed 10000 people in a month. I don’t care whose ‘good’ or ‘bad’ but whomever is doing the most killing needs to stop the most.
Also the claim that this is just two groups of religious zealots fighting over who they is really god is both fucking stupid and frankly offensive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also the claim that this is just two groups of religious zealots fighting over who they is really god is both fucking stupid and frankly offensive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
I can’t tell where your irony starts and stops, but “ugh this is complicated can’t everybody just chill?? Also religion = bad amirite” is ridiculously tone deaf in this thread.
+1 to this. I think reducing this conflict to a dumb religious war between dumb religious people and their dumb religious sky god is reductive, inaccurate, and really unkind to Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze, and others, including secular people, who all live in this area and come from deep and valuable traditions and are being grievously impacted by state violence and terrorism as we speak.
posted by kensington314 at 4:09 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
+1 to this. I think reducing this conflict to a dumb religious war between dumb religious people and their dumb religious sky god is reductive, inaccurate, and really unkind to Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze, and others, including secular people, who all live in this area and come from deep and valuable traditions and are being grievously impacted by state violence and terrorism as we speak.
posted by kensington314 at 4:09 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Also just . . . lots of accusations of anti-semitism in this thread but I'll say that the clearest example I've seen so far is, in fact, the caviar2d2 sentiment that Judaism is so stupid as to be worthy of "sky god" and "Mayor of Bible Town" mockery. Let's do less of this kind of thing here.
posted by kensington314 at 4:13 PM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 4:13 PM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Yes, subject to the same laws of war as anybody else. Random indiscriminate rockets are no more consistent with that caveat than massacring festival goers. You don't get a pass on war crimes because somebody else did a crime first.
posted by Justinian at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, subject to the same laws of war as anybody else. Random indiscriminate rockets are no more consistent with that caveat than massacring festival goers. You don't get a pass on war crimes because somebody else did a crime first.
posted by Justinian at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is it Day 32 or 33 now? I've lost count. Anyway, anyone used to wonder what must be like if there was the internet during the years between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi? Related to that thought, I don't really wonder anymore what must be like to have the internet during the Troubles.
Jeremy Flood: The ADL spread this same libel against Nelson Mandela in the 80's for fighting to end apartheid. They defended the white regime, and denounced the ANC as "totalitarian, anti-humane, anti-democratic, anti-Israel, and anti-American." History rhymes.
This is in response to ADL: The House’s bipartisan censure of Rep. Talib [sic] last night sends a critical message that antisemitism will not be tolerated in the halls of Congress. "From the River to the Sea" is a Hamas call to annihilate Israel - claiming it is a rally of coexistence gives cover to terror. Thank you to members of both parties for your leadership & moral clarity.
Someone asked for a cite, so here's one from the Boston Review (tho that is focused on their history in American politics) and a Foreign Policy one which is largely on Israel and South Africa.
Jeremy Flood: The ADL spread this same libel against Nelson Mandela in the 80's for fighting to end apartheid. They defended the white regime, and denounced the ANC as "totalitarian, anti-humane, anti-democratic, anti-Israel, and anti-American." History rhymes.
This is in response to ADL: The House’s bipartisan censure of Rep. Talib [sic] last night sends a critical message that antisemitism will not be tolerated in the halls of Congress. "From the River to the Sea" is a Hamas call to annihilate Israel - claiming it is a rally of coexistence gives cover to terror. Thank you to members of both parties for your leadership & moral clarity.
Someone asked for a cite, so here's one from the Boston Review (tho that is focused on their history in American politics) and a Foreign Policy one which is largely on Israel and South Africa.
posted by AlSweigart at 9:00 AM on October 28, 2023 [66 favorites]