"Gaza is Being Strangled"
October 28, 2023 8:56 AM Subscribe
Gaza Is Being Strangled”: U.N. Says Israel’s Siege Will Lead to More Palestinian Deaths The United Nations has warned that many more Palestinians will die due to catastrophic shortages of food, water and medicine, as Israel’s nonstop bombardment of the Gaza Strip entered its 21st day.
"What UNRWA is calling for, the U.N. agency for Palestine refugees, is an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and a continuous, unimpeded and safe flow of aid. Eight trucks a day — today, 12 yesterday, 20 the day before — can these really be sufficient for a population of 2.2 million people, all stranded under complete seal? For context, before this crisis — and even then, nothing was normal — 500 trucks used to come into the Gaza Strip from Erez, from Israel, and from Rafah, from Egypt. A hundred of these trucks contained humanitarian and food assistance, because already before this conflict, 70% of people in Gaza relied on food assistance from the U.N. and lived under the poverty line."
"What UNRWA is calling for, the U.N. agency for Palestine refugees, is an immediate humanitarian ceasefire and a continuous, unimpeded and safe flow of aid. Eight trucks a day — today, 12 yesterday, 20 the day before — can these really be sufficient for a population of 2.2 million people, all stranded under complete seal? For context, before this crisis — and even then, nothing was normal — 500 trucks used to come into the Gaza Strip from Erez, from Israel, and from Rafah, from Egypt. A hundred of these trucks contained humanitarian and food assistance, because already before this conflict, 70% of people in Gaza relied on food assistance from the U.N. and lived under the poverty line."
Yes, and as a U.S. citizen, I condemn the U.S. government for aiding and abetting in it.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 9:07 AM on October 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 9:07 AM on October 28, 2023 [39 favorites]
As a Jewish American, this issue causes a lot of very complex, personal, and deeply important feelings in me. There are many things I would say on the subject, but I’m pretty sure that Metafilter has policies on this subject.
I’ll let the moderators pop in here and clarify.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
I’ll let the moderators pop in here and clarify.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Previously, lots of additional links and discussion in there for context.
The person who created that post quit Metafilter because of the discussion that resulted.
posted by clawsoon at 9:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
The person who created that post quit Metafilter because of the discussion that resulted.
posted by clawsoon at 9:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 9:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet? Have they attempted to give one?
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 10:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Probably the same rationale as cutting water, food, and medicine.
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:02 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:02 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
Disgusted that Canada abstained from the UN vote on a resolution for protection of civilians and upholding legal and humanitarian obligations. The USA voted against. Yay war crimes!
It’s been said that physical mail carries more weight than electronic means.
Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament at the following address:
[Name of Member of Parliament]
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6
e.g.
Justin Trudeau
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6
posted by rodlymight at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
It’s been said that physical mail carries more weight than electronic means.
Mail may be sent postage-free to any Member of Parliament at the following address:
[Name of Member of Parliament]
House of Commons
Ottawa, Ontario
Canada
K1A 0A6
e.g.
Justin Trudeau
House of Commons
Ottawa, ON
K1A 0A6
posted by rodlymight at 10:05 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Is there anything, ANYTHING at all that an average American citizen can do to help the Palestinian people, either in calling for a ceasefire or in some other way? I have never felt more powerless, more bereft of political representation in my life.
Especially as a new parent, to see and hear what is being done to the children of Gaza... it's nothing compared to what Palestinian civilians are going through right now, but I still feel this inescapable weight.
I spend a lot of time on Reddit (I know), and reading the top comments to any post about Israel's bombardment of Gaza, seeing the deluge of disregard and blame for people getting shelled even as they are forced to unlawfully evacuate their homes, just casts a pall over my soul.
posted by miltthetank at 10:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Especially as a new parent, to see and hear what is being done to the children of Gaza... it's nothing compared to what Palestinian civilians are going through right now, but I still feel this inescapable weight.
I spend a lot of time on Reddit (I know), and reading the top comments to any post about Israel's bombardment of Gaza, seeing the deluge of disregard and blame for people getting shelled even as they are forced to unlawfully evacuate their homes, just casts a pall over my soul.
posted by miltthetank at 10:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet?
Israel's plan is to go in and kill everyone in Hamas, maybe 30 or 40 thousand, as efficiently as possible. They want the first local clue that they're coming to be the sound of helicopters, not the tone of a WhatsApp message coming from a cousin watching preparations far away.
posted by pracowity at 10:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Israel's plan is to go in and kill everyone in Hamas, maybe 30 or 40 thousand, as efficiently as possible. They want the first local clue that they're coming to be the sound of helicopters, not the tone of a WhatsApp message coming from a cousin watching preparations far away.
posted by pracowity at 10:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
What is Israel's stated rationale for cutting phone and internet?
Not sure what their stated rationale is, but I'm pretty sure that the average Israeli is terrified of their friends and loved ones getting raped, decapitated, gunned down, or abducted from their homes.
Since this wretched thread is still here, I'll just say that I am also terrified of what Israel's next steps will be, and hope that somehow they'll see the moral as well as mortal dangers before they go even further than they already have.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Not sure what their stated rationale is, but I'm pretty sure that the average Israeli is terrified of their friends and loved ones getting raped, decapitated, gunned down, or abducted from their homes.
Since this wretched thread is still here, I'll just say that I am also terrified of what Israel's next steps will be, and hope that somehow they'll see the moral as well as mortal dangers before they go even further than they already have.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 10:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
I realize that they could argue that there is no such thing as neutral supplies, but some basic human necessities are close enough.
I realize that there are those who don't give a damn. Still . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I realize that they could argue that there is no such thing as neutral supplies, but some basic human necessities are close enough.
I realize that there are those who don't give a damn. Still . . .
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 10:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Knocking out the other side's communications is a pretty normal thing to do in the opening stages of regional ground attack, in a vacuum. The problem is conducting that kind of attack on a place like Gaza in the first place.
Human Rights Watch on the Iraq War:
Preplanned targets included leadership, government, security, and military facilities, and certain dual-use infrastructure elements (such as electrical power, media, and telecommunications facilities).
Attacks on these facilities generally did not result in civilian casualties or extensive damage to civilian property for a number of reasons. U.S. strategy avoided power plants, public water facilities, refineries, bridges, and other civilian structures. Most of the facilities that were hit were in areas to which the civilian population did not have access. Thorough collateral damage estimates were done for each of the preplanned targets. Finally, these attacks were carried out exclusively with precision-guided munitions.
...
Human Rights Watch believes that extreme caution should be used in the targeting of electrical power facilities because of the potential profound and long-term impact on civilian populations. The loss of electrical power in the first Gulf War, for example, crippled basic civilian services, including hospital-based medical care, and shut down water distribution, water purification, and sewage treatment plants. This led to death and suffering, especially among the most vulnerable members of the population.
In particular, Human Rights Watch believes that civilian electrical generation (production) facilities should not be attacked because replacement is costly and time-consuming, thereby causing prolonged human suffering. As seen in Yugoslavia, attacks on electrical distribution facilities can have a lesser impact. If distribution facilities are attacked, it should be done in such as way as to cause only temporarily incapacitation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:50 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Human Rights Watch on the Iraq War:
Preplanned targets included leadership, government, security, and military facilities, and certain dual-use infrastructure elements (such as electrical power, media, and telecommunications facilities).
Attacks on these facilities generally did not result in civilian casualties or extensive damage to civilian property for a number of reasons. U.S. strategy avoided power plants, public water facilities, refineries, bridges, and other civilian structures. Most of the facilities that were hit were in areas to which the civilian population did not have access. Thorough collateral damage estimates were done for each of the preplanned targets. Finally, these attacks were carried out exclusively with precision-guided munitions.
...
Human Rights Watch believes that extreme caution should be used in the targeting of electrical power facilities because of the potential profound and long-term impact on civilian populations. The loss of electrical power in the first Gulf War, for example, crippled basic civilian services, including hospital-based medical care, and shut down water distribution, water purification, and sewage treatment plants. This led to death and suffering, especially among the most vulnerable members of the population.
In particular, Human Rights Watch believes that civilian electrical generation (production) facilities should not be attacked because replacement is costly and time-consuming, thereby causing prolonged human suffering. As seen in Yugoslavia, attacks on electrical distribution facilities can have a lesser impact. If distribution facilities are attacked, it should be done in such as way as to cause only temporarily incapacitation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:50 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
dances_with_sneetches: I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
Probably House Resolution 771, Standing with Israel as it defends itself against the barbaric war launched by Hamas and other terrorists, cosponsored by 425 representatives, passed 412-10.
posted by clawsoon at 10:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Probably House Resolution 771, Standing with Israel as it defends itself against the barbaric war launched by Hamas and other terrorists, cosponsored by 425 representatives, passed 412-10.
posted by clawsoon at 10:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
If we could not have this become a play by play of military action, that would be helpful.
The purpose of this thread is to highlight the ongoing bombardment of Palestine and that it has not stopped since October 7/8. In which case, with protests all over the world right now, one wonders, when will Israel ceasefire?
I have a MetaTalk in queue that had better framing around a purpose but as it has not been approved, I posted something to be on the front page. The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
The purpose of this thread is to highlight the ongoing bombardment of Palestine and that it has not stopped since October 7/8. In which case, with protests all over the world right now, one wonders, when will Israel ceasefire?
I have a MetaTalk in queue that had better framing around a purpose but as it has not been approved, I posted something to be on the front page. The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 10:56 AM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
genocide
posted by kensington314 at 11:04 AM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 11:04 AM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
AnyUsernameWillDo: The first thread is hard to scroll through and it's also not what I think is needed right now.
Expecting that an Israel-Palestine thread will provide what anyone feels is needed is... optimistic? :-)
(Perhaps ironically, the most reliable way to do that would be to completely lock one side or the other out of the discussion.)
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Expecting that an Israel-Palestine thread will provide what anyone feels is needed is... optimistic? :-)
(Perhaps ironically, the most reliable way to do that would be to completely lock one side or the other out of the discussion.)
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Games for Gaza - get 140 video games by indie creators, donate to Medical Aid For Palestinians. They're getting close to their $150k goal.
I went to shul today for the first time ever (not just because of this, I also had a close family bereavement this morning and Needed To Do Something, but I also feel like we're all in a place of Needing To Do Something). Our rabbi spoke about grief, the desire for peace and unity, and the need to recognise each other as human beings. I hope similar sermons are being given in many places today. Shabbat shalom, everyone.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
I went to shul today for the first time ever (not just because of this, I also had a close family bereavement this morning and Needed To Do Something, but I also feel like we're all in a place of Needing To Do Something). Our rabbi spoke about grief, the desire for peace and unity, and the need to recognise each other as human beings. I hope similar sermons are being given in many places today. Shabbat shalom, everyone.
posted by fight or flight at 11:09 AM on October 28, 2023 [36 favorites]
It's a genocide, and contrasting it with the response to Russia invading Ukraine only makes me feel even more nauseous — if such a thing is even possible.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Israel looks like they'll pass a law allowing the cops to use live ammunition against Israeli protestors. (They already shoot down protesters in Gaza and the West Bank.) That tells you what you need to know about how the Israeli state is operating - they'll kill their own people if they have to in order to pursue their aims.
This is sheer opportunism. In the first days, when average Israelis were most afraid and angry, it was easy enough to bomb and starve Gaza without questions being raised. Now, when people are starting to understand that this is ethnic cleansing, anyone who doesn't want to bomb hospitals and kill babies in their incubators can be shot or terrified into silence.
It's opportunism in the sense that it is taking a wave of fear and outrage as an excuse to begin the annihilation of Palestine and it is opportunism in the sense that it is a way to pass laws against dissent that can be used to prop up Netanyahu and his cronies. There has always been an attempt to propagandize ordinary Israelis into ardent support for the oppression of Palestinians, but there are plenty of people who don't go along with that - whether they are radicals or just don't believe that the Palestinian situation should be solved with a gun. Now there's a chance to shut those people up for good, and the hope that in ten years, when the Palestinians are dead or scattered, everyone will be glad to forget.
US tax dollars prop up a lot of evil around the world and I may not be able to stop it, but they can't make me like it or forget about it.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [67 favorites]
This is sheer opportunism. In the first days, when average Israelis were most afraid and angry, it was easy enough to bomb and starve Gaza without questions being raised. Now, when people are starting to understand that this is ethnic cleansing, anyone who doesn't want to bomb hospitals and kill babies in their incubators can be shot or terrified into silence.
It's opportunism in the sense that it is taking a wave of fear and outrage as an excuse to begin the annihilation of Palestine and it is opportunism in the sense that it is a way to pass laws against dissent that can be used to prop up Netanyahu and his cronies. There has always been an attempt to propagandize ordinary Israelis into ardent support for the oppression of Palestinians, but there are plenty of people who don't go along with that - whether they are radicals or just don't believe that the Palestinian situation should be solved with a gun. Now there's a chance to shut those people up for good, and the hope that in ten years, when the Palestinians are dead or scattered, everyone will be glad to forget.
US tax dollars prop up a lot of evil around the world and I may not be able to stop it, but they can't make me like it or forget about it.
posted by Frowner at 11:16 AM on October 28, 2023 [67 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
The US supplies and pays for the bombs and the planes to drop them on Gaza. If the US wasn't broadly supportive of the outcomes in Gaza, they have quite a lot of leverage to force Israel to change. Despite some weak public statements, there is little reason to believe the US does not broadly support the Israeli strategy, which includes a siege that prevents food, water, fuel and medical supplies from reaching Gaza.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
The US supplies and pays for the bombs and the planes to drop them on Gaza. If the US wasn't broadly supportive of the outcomes in Gaza, they have quite a lot of leverage to force Israel to change. Despite some weak public statements, there is little reason to believe the US does not broadly support the Israeli strategy, which includes a siege that prevents food, water, fuel and medical supplies from reaching Gaza.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
I was going to post a link here, but I won't but just say, apparently there is a protest in Tel Aviv today. And then there have been protests in Israel by families of hostages who are being held by Hamas. One posted today said that hostages families have heard nothing at all about any communication or plan to get their loved ones home safely. This is not good for them. Not good for Palestinians.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:19 AM on October 28, 2023 [17 favorites]
The only thing that made the former, now unwieldy, thread usable was the folks who posted links to smart analysis and on-the-ground information, rather than venting their own angry opinions all over the place. It would be great if that happened here, but, yeah, I don't have much hope.
Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
posted by mediareport at 11:20 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
posted by mediareport at 11:20 AM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
mediareport: Speaking personally, pictures and video of dead children and blood-slicked floors in Gaza hospitals make it very hard for me to remain dispassionate, just as the pictures and video of slaughtered children and blood-slicked homes did on 10/7.
That is surely part of the reason for Israel attempting to impose a communications blackout.
posted by clawsoon at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
That is surely part of the reason for Israel attempting to impose a communications blackout.
posted by clawsoon at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Yes, I hope that, we can remember in each other our shared humanity. And the humanity in every person in Gaza. Every person in Israel who was killed by Hamas. Every person grieving for their family members killed or taken hostage. I think and hope we can at least agree on that.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:25 AM on October 28, 2023 [40 favorites]
The only thing that made the former, now unwieldy, thread usable was the folks who posted links to smart analysis and on-the-ground information, rather than venting their own angry opinions all over the place. It would be great if that happened here, but, yeah, I don't have much hope.
Heartily agree and embarrassed to say I didn't help the dynamic. I'll try to do better. The linked info that clawsoon, mediareport, and others brought by that thread was helpful and informative. The emotional processing of watching thousands of innocents be killed and maimed by a US proxy is maybe inevitable for some of us, but again I'll try to do better in my contributions here.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Heartily agree and embarrassed to say I didn't help the dynamic. I'll try to do better. The linked info that clawsoon, mediareport, and others brought by that thread was helpful and informative. The emotional processing of watching thousands of innocents be killed and maimed by a US proxy is maybe inevitable for some of us, but again I'll try to do better in my contributions here.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Well, again, I posted a metatalk and it hasn't been approved yet. As far as keeping this more about links to news sources vs. angry opinions. I don't want to debate anything here. More so hold space for people to share in this horror. Because as fight or flight mentions above and a few others, we all want to do something but feel powerless to do so. In the least we can not let it go unnoticed.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:29 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:29 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Seriously, fellow Mefites: start at the bottom of the old thread and prioritize comments with links in them as you scroll up. Do that for 45 minutes before jumping in here and you'll Help The Community.
posted by mediareport at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Protests are ongoing in London, NYC, etc ... and there are organizing spaces on Zoom to join...
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 11:31 AM on October 28, 2023
Jewish Voice for Peace forced Grand Central Station to close yesterday as hundreds of protesters, including rabbis, were arrested as they tried to stop the bombing.
posted by mediareport at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 11:35 AM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Missed the edit window but my post above should have read "innocents," not "incidents." Damn you autocarrot etc etc
posted by kensington314 at 11:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 11:47 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm with you mediareport, I want more filter, and much less meta.
I am glad NZ voted for the resolution, but in three weeks will probably reverse that as idiots here have voted in a bunch of christian fundamentalists, they are carbon copies of the new US House Speaker.
posted by unearthed at 11:51 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am glad NZ voted for the resolution, but in three weeks will probably reverse that as idiots here have voted in a bunch of christian fundamentalists, they are carbon copies of the new US House Speaker.
posted by unearthed at 11:51 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is there anything, ANYTHING at all that an average American citizen can do to help the Palestinian people, either in calling for a ceasefire or in some other way? I have never felt more powerless, more bereft of political representation in my life.
Here is a link to a page from Jewish Voice for Peace that will allow you to call your two senators and your house rep to demand a ceasefire. They have done a lot to make this very easy. You put in your information and will be called by a service that will redirect you to each phone line just by hitting the star key on your phone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a staffer, you can call at night and leave a message (I did this around 9 PM EST last night). There are scripts on the page to help. If your house rep has already supported the ceasefire resolution, there is a script to thank them as well. It may not feel like much, but it's something you directly can do to make your voice heard.
posted by JimBennett at 11:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Here is a link to a page from Jewish Voice for Peace that will allow you to call your two senators and your house rep to demand a ceasefire. They have done a lot to make this very easy. You put in your information and will be called by a service that will redirect you to each phone line just by hitting the star key on your phone. If you don't feel comfortable talking to a staffer, you can call at night and leave a message (I did this around 9 PM EST last night). There are scripts on the page to help. If your house rep has already supported the ceasefire resolution, there is a script to thank them as well. It may not feel like much, but it's something you directly can do to make your voice heard.
posted by JimBennett at 11:54 AM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
This all makes me very, very sad. No other geopolitical event in recent memory has made me as sad as this has.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:03 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:03 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. Let's practice flagging things up if something is bothersome/against guidelines rather than calling out users in comments. Also, please remember to ask us mods to come in and moderate something if it's going south, and refrain from self moderating or thread sitting. Also, one typo corrected, "incident" is now "innocents".
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:22 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, if there needs to be further moderation in a thread and we may have missed something, flag it up or send us a message via email. I've removed two additional comments that were not helpful to the thread.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Letters from Gaza
Protean Magazine has been publishing such recent communication as is available from ordinary Palestinians.
My heart aches for my apartment, which I built brick by brick with my own hands. I painstakingly selected each material, each tile, treating them as companions that would accompany me through life. I carried the packages of tiles with tenderness, just as I carried my firstborn child in his cradle. The joy I felt as each tile was laid and dried was immeasurable. I even distributed sweets around Gaza when I completed the row of tiles!
Yet, the pilot decided to unleash their hatred upon my cherished tiles, dimming their brightness that I loved so deeply.
I copied in this one because I also feel very strongly attached to the physical quality of my home and things like my plates and cups and I've often thought about how I would miss their qualities terribly if I lost them. The destruction of places and things gets overlooked if the people survive but the destruction of the place is part of the destruction of the people.
posted by Frowner at 12:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Protean Magazine has been publishing such recent communication as is available from ordinary Palestinians.
My heart aches for my apartment, which I built brick by brick with my own hands. I painstakingly selected each material, each tile, treating them as companions that would accompany me through life. I carried the packages of tiles with tenderness, just as I carried my firstborn child in his cradle. The joy I felt as each tile was laid and dried was immeasurable. I even distributed sweets around Gaza when I completed the row of tiles!
Yet, the pilot decided to unleash their hatred upon my cherished tiles, dimming their brightness that I loved so deeply.
I copied in this one because I also feel very strongly attached to the physical quality of my home and things like my plates and cups and I've often thought about how I would miss their qualities terribly if I lost them. The destruction of places and things gets overlooked if the people survive but the destruction of the place is part of the destruction of the people.
posted by Frowner at 12:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [24 favorites]
Times of Israel: Cabinet said slated to okay police use of live fire against protesters blocking roads during multi-front war
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:58 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:58 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Dear Metafilter administrators. I don't understand why you don't delete this hate speech. I am ashamed to be a member of this community as long as this post is not being shut down.How is this post "hate speech"?
posted by Flunkie at 1:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [28 favorites]
I mean, feel free to remotely rebut those statements, rather than calling it hate speech? Sure sounds accurate to me.
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:15 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't call it "hate speech" by any means, but it it is a deliberately one-sided post for sure.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing? Genocide? Shame on you, you prog elitists useful idiotsI guess I tend to think that while there's a lot of shame to go around, it's better directed towards those who cut off the water supply to millions of people than to those who use words that you think are too harsh when describing cutting off the water supply to millions of people.
posted by Flunkie at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [41 favorites]
As far as the situation in Palestine is concerned, I don't see what other side there could be. Maybe the civilians deserve it? Maybe there's not actually a blockade?
posted by sagc at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Alright, let’s hold off on getting into a back and forth debate with each other please in this thread
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 1:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Svara, a Queer-focused 'traditionally radical yeshiva', created a Talmud-style page as a response to the situation.
We're hearing a (mostly accurate) narrative in the American Jewish community of steadfast solidarity with Israel, but I think Svara has done a good job with explaining some of the nuance in the hearts of many of us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:25 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
We're hearing a (mostly accurate) narrative in the American Jewish community of steadfast solidarity with Israel, but I think Svara has done a good job with explaining some of the nuance in the hearts of many of us.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 1:25 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
posted by kickingtheground at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 1:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hamas can get fucked for war crimes, too.
posted by lalochezia at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 1:54 PM on October 28, 2023 [34 favorites]
I don't think this has been widely announced, given what a minefield the topic is, but the Canadian Government is matching donations made to the Humanitarian Coalition for Gaza, up to a total $10 million for donations made between October 7 and November 12.
posted by urbanlenny at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by urbanlenny at 2:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I posted this in the other thread but I feel like folks could in addition to news and analysis links may appreciate links to art and poetry. So here’s prologue for now - gaza.
posted by R343L at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by R343L at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
'Not in Our Name': The Jews Who Refuse to Be Bystanders to Historic Injustice.
Close on the heels of what is being seen as 'the largest Jewish protest in solidarity with Palestinians in US history,' the group Jewish Voice for Peace are keen to break the cycle that ethnic atrocities follow.
'Not in my name’: The European Jews condemning Israel’s war on Gaza.
From Glasgow to London to Barcelona, many Jewish protesters take on abuse to join pro-Palestinian rallies.
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
Close on the heels of what is being seen as 'the largest Jewish protest in solidarity with Palestinians in US history,' the group Jewish Voice for Peace are keen to break the cycle that ethnic atrocities follow.
'Not in my name’: The European Jews condemning Israel’s war on Gaza.
From Glasgow to London to Barcelona, many Jewish protesters take on abuse to join pro-Palestinian rallies.
posted by adamvasco at 2:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
There is a very large divide on this topic. This is one of the most enduring conflicts of the modern era. The history is complex and it is easy to make judgements from afar that lack the context of individual Palestinians and Israelis. There are also many leaders among Israelis and Palestinians that have a record of bad faith dealings. Among them is of course current Israeli leader Benjamin Netanyahu and his counterpart Ismail Haniyeh the leader of Hamas.
The response to the events of October 7th by Israel was to use the IDF to destroy Hamas and evict them from Gaza. They will argue this as their right to defend their country from ongoing rocket attacks and the violent cross border attacks. They will also argue that they are showing the necessary precautions for limitations on civilian casualties under the laws of war. The official position of the US is that Israel should do more to protect civilians, but that they are largely complying with the rules of war. I'm not endorsing this position, I'm merely attempting to outline it for the purposes of discussion. I am not minimizing the conflict, I'm merely attempting to describe it accurately. The knob that adjusts my response to the level of this nightmare has long since gone to its maximum level.
Even if Israel was behaving perfectly, so long as they are pursing a military solution then there will be civilian casualties and deaths in Gaza. If that is the policy you think is necessary then you should brace yourself because it will be a lot worse. If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country then your choices are limited in how you will respond if you want to survive. One question I struggle with is what are the alternatives. Many Israeli's I've talked to seem to be feeling the same way. They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
I don't know how to solve a problem like Hamas. I'm undecided on the necessity or wisdom of using military force as part of the solution. I have zero confidence in Netanyahu as the real decision maker here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The response to the events of October 7th by Israel was to use the IDF to destroy Hamas and evict them from Gaza. They will argue this as their right to defend their country from ongoing rocket attacks and the violent cross border attacks. They will also argue that they are showing the necessary precautions for limitations on civilian casualties under the laws of war. The official position of the US is that Israel should do more to protect civilians, but that they are largely complying with the rules of war. I'm not endorsing this position, I'm merely attempting to outline it for the purposes of discussion. I am not minimizing the conflict, I'm merely attempting to describe it accurately. The knob that adjusts my response to the level of this nightmare has long since gone to its maximum level.
Even if Israel was behaving perfectly, so long as they are pursing a military solution then there will be civilian casualties and deaths in Gaza. If that is the policy you think is necessary then you should brace yourself because it will be a lot worse. If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country then your choices are limited in how you will respond if you want to survive. One question I struggle with is what are the alternatives. Many Israeli's I've talked to seem to be feeling the same way. They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
I don't know how to solve a problem like Hamas. I'm undecided on the necessity or wisdom of using military force as part of the solution. I have zero confidence in Netanyahu as the real decision maker here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
kickingtheground: Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
It reminds me of the not-very-chivalrous rule of chivalry that kicking "useless mouths" out of a besieged city into the horror of no-man's-land was perfectly fine if it allowed the soldiers inside to live longer.
People who depend on violence for their power suck.
posted by clawsoon at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
It reminds me of the not-very-chivalrous rule of chivalry that kicking "useless mouths" out of a besieged city into the horror of no-man's-land was perfectly fine if it allowed the soldiers inside to live longer.
People who depend on violence for their power suck.
posted by clawsoon at 2:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
My heart is so heavy, but in some ways, these events have engendered in me a sick kind of clarity: This is war now. It's no longer (to a western observer, because, in truth, it never was) an academic exercise. And if you stand with the state of Israel and those who support their actions materially or ideologically, you are not only MY enemy, but an enemy of humanity. I will never say that what Hamas has done is okay, but I also could understand almost any kind of retaliation short of unabated slaughter. Israel occupies and controls Gaza. Whether in a storm of lead and fire or over the course of centuries with laws, settlers, and construction, this was clearly always the endgame.
posted by Krazor at 2:35 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by Krazor at 2:35 PM on October 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
interogative mood: If an enemy is determined to use missiles and soldiers to kill you and destroy your country... They are afraid if they back down now Hamas will claim this as a victory.
This is where it feels for me like there's a large gap where two very different outcomes are being pulled together as if they are the same: if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I doubt that I'll agree with whatever the reasoning is, but I am trying to understand and ask in good faith.
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is where it feels for me like there's a large gap where two very different outcomes are being pulled together as if they are the same: if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I doubt that I'll agree with whatever the reasoning is, but I am trying to understand and ask in good faith.
posted by clawsoon at 2:43 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
is "fuck netanyahu" a sentiment we can all agree on? because if so, fuck netanyahu. and if not, fuck netanyahu.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:45 PM on October 28, 2023 [58 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:45 PM on October 28, 2023 [58 favorites]
I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot/fish in a barrell.
Really this whole situation is Israel's fault, they've had 2-3 generations to fix their original mistake, and have instead made it worse decade by decade, Israel has the power here, the money, the resources to put things right, but has not been able to garner the internal political will, instead we've seen decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on October 28, 2023 [33 favorites]
Really this whole situation is Israel's fault, they've had 2-3 generations to fix their original mistake, and have instead made it worse decade by decade, Israel has the power here, the money, the resources to put things right, but has not been able to garner the internal political will, instead we've seen decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
posted by mbo at 2:47 PM on October 28, 2023 [33 favorites]
decades of right wing governments that were always going to end badly for everyone
Decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
Decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [29 favorites]
> I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot/fish in a barrell.
feels like "sack" is the right word. is it a sack? is the idf sacking gaza?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
feels like "sack" is the right word. is it a sack? is the idf sacking gaza?
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:49 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
mbo: I don't think it's "war", it's something worse, corralling people into a cage and then shooting them is more of some sort of horrible human-turkey shoot.
Much better said, thank you.
posted by Krazor at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Much better said, thank you.
posted by Krazor at 2:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Turkey is a NATO member. This brings complications to the Alliance.
Turkey’s Erdogan tells pro-Palestinian rally Israel is ‘an occupier’
Addressing hundreds of thousands of supporters, Erdogan accuses the West of being the main culprit in the war on Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 3:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Turkey’s Erdogan tells pro-Palestinian rally Israel is ‘an occupier’
Addressing hundreds of thousands of supporters, Erdogan accuses the West of being the main culprit in the war on Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 3:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
if Hamas claims a victory (for a horrific and deadly but limited and quickly reversed incursion), does that mean that Israel is destroyed? For people who feel this way, how is the one connected, emotionally or rationally, to the other?
I'll take a stab at this one. One of the big ways that Israel has survived the last 80 years is through a myth of its, if not invulnerability, at least greatly superior power as compared to its neighbors. It survived multiple wars where it was invaded by a bunch of countries at the same time on a bunch of fronts simultaneously. Historically, it has been surrounded on all sides by enemies that outnumber it by a factor of 20x or more. So the way it has in the past gotten by is by the propagation of that myth where if you challenge them you'll lose, lose badly, and pay an outsize price for the attempt.
Anything which Hamas can plausibly claim as a victory is a knife in the heart of that myth. If Israel can "lose" to Hamas, if Hamas can get away with arguably the worst terror attack in modern history (9/11 being the other) without being destroyed, then other countries surrounding Israel might start to get the idea that maybe things have changed and Israel will start to look mighty vulnerable.
I believe that's likely what Israeli leadership thinks. History provides them with plausible reasons to believe that. There are also reasons to think it's not true that a so-called Hamas "victory" would mean any of that so you don't have to convince me! But I think that's probably a reasonable approximation of the thinking going on.
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
I'll take a stab at this one. One of the big ways that Israel has survived the last 80 years is through a myth of its, if not invulnerability, at least greatly superior power as compared to its neighbors. It survived multiple wars where it was invaded by a bunch of countries at the same time on a bunch of fronts simultaneously. Historically, it has been surrounded on all sides by enemies that outnumber it by a factor of 20x or more. So the way it has in the past gotten by is by the propagation of that myth where if you challenge them you'll lose, lose badly, and pay an outsize price for the attempt.
Anything which Hamas can plausibly claim as a victory is a knife in the heart of that myth. If Israel can "lose" to Hamas, if Hamas can get away with arguably the worst terror attack in modern history (9/11 being the other) without being destroyed, then other countries surrounding Israel might start to get the idea that maybe things have changed and Israel will start to look mighty vulnerable.
I believe that's likely what Israeli leadership thinks. History provides them with plausible reasons to believe that. There are also reasons to think it's not true that a so-called Hamas "victory" would mean any of that so you don't have to convince me! But I think that's probably a reasonable approximation of the thinking going on.
posted by Justinian at 3:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [26 favorites]
It is by now well established that internet blackouts are a prelude to some combination of mass murder, rape, torture, eviction, and other crimes committed by the strong against the weak.
Israel can shut down the internet in Gaza and despite every single person on the planet over the age of 12 knowing with 100% certainty it means Israel intends to commit widespread crimes against humanity even worse and more of them than they have to date, yet still people will desperately pretend not to know what it means. We also know with 100% certainty that no one with power will act.
After the great evil is committed and recordings of what happened trickle out, people will pretend to be shocked and horrified. I'd rather we were all honest and dispensed with the public displays of shock and surprise, or the even more dishonest pubic displays of ignorance. You don't get to pretend that we're ignorant. We KNOW what is happening.
posted by sotonohito at 3:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
Israel can shut down the internet in Gaza and despite every single person on the planet over the age of 12 knowing with 100% certainty it means Israel intends to commit widespread crimes against humanity even worse and more of them than they have to date, yet still people will desperately pretend not to know what it means. We also know with 100% certainty that no one with power will act.
After the great evil is committed and recordings of what happened trickle out, people will pretend to be shocked and horrified. I'd rather we were all honest and dispensed with the public displays of shock and surprise, or the even more dishonest pubic displays of ignorance. You don't get to pretend that we're ignorant. We KNOW what is happening.
posted by sotonohito at 3:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [52 favorites]
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.How much water do you think they could have stored?
I'm not trying to be snarky; I genuinely have no idea what a reasonable estimate would be. But the rough amount I get from my uninformed back-of-the-envelope calculations for how much water is actually needed seems... enormous?
Mayo Clinic says that in a temperate climate, the average healthy adult male needs 3.7 liters per day, and the average healthy adult female needs 2.7. So say 3.2 liters per person per day. Of course that's high because so much of Gaza is populated by children, but it's also low because Gaza is not a temperate climate. I have no idea the degree to which these two opposing factors cancel each other out, but I'm just going for a rough estimate here.
They go on to say that it's typical to get about 20% of your water via food rather than via, well, water. So that brings it down to 0.8 * 3.2 = about 2.6 liters per person per day of liquid water. This is, I'm guessing, another low estimate, as they've also been cut off from food, but again, rough estimate.
Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 2.4 million people in the Gaza Strip as of 2022, so that makes it about 6.2 million liters per day (about 1.6 million gallons per day).
It's been, what, 21 days? So just to get to now, without any left for tomorrow, it's like 130 million gallons? Again, I'm not educated on this matter, but that seems like a whole lot of water that would have to have been hoarded?
I'm sure there are other factors my rough estimate is missing, e.g. (on the "estimate is high" end) "You don't need the amount the Mayo Clinic says you should have", "Some amount of water can theoretically be collected via rainfall on average in the best of situations", and "There was some amount of water left in the pipes even after the pipes were shut that could have been used ", or e.g. (on the "estimate is low" end) "Humans need water for more than just ingesting"). But honestly, my gut reaction to "Well now that the water supply of the population is cut off, Hamas isn't sharing their hoarded water with the population", in response to "Israel has cut off the water supply of the population" is that it seems like deflection, or at best of extremely short-term relevance.
posted by Flunkie at 3:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The water problem in Gaza is, in large part, a fuel problem - there's a major fresh water line from Israel to southern Gaza that is still being supplied, but the water network within Gaza needs fuel to operate the pumps that distribute it.
posted by kickingtheground at 3:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 3:51 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
For the sake of widely spread thinking and discussion, I recommend @rootmetals on Instagram. She has been posting extensively on the historical and cultural context of the current conflict (I agree with mbo above, I don't like the term "war") from an Israeli and Jewish perspective. While some here won't agree with everything she says (I don't believe I do either) I think it's important to understand that this is a time of holding uncomfortable truths side by side within ourselves and that aligning with black/white good/bad thinking can be harmful.
Personally speaking, as a Jew with Muslim heritage on the same branches, these are difficult times to try to engage with anything. I don't feel comfortable expressing myself in Jewish or secular spaces. I want the horrific crimes going on in Gaza to end, but expressing that view in (many but not all) Jewish spaces is an invitation for scorn or being accused of not being "a real Jew". My similarly liberal friends have families in Israel and we talk about them in hushed voices. I've seen videos of antisemites latching on to peace rallies to shout horrific antisemitic slogans. On the flip side, lots of Jewish community spaces online are turning insular and toxic, often repeating vile Islamophobic bigotry, it's horrible to watch. But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
To borrow a phrase from Michael Chabon, these are strange times to be a Jew. And stranger times to be a Jew with a broken heart.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
Personally speaking, as a Jew with Muslim heritage on the same branches, these are difficult times to try to engage with anything. I don't feel comfortable expressing myself in Jewish or secular spaces. I want the horrific crimes going on in Gaza to end, but expressing that view in (many but not all) Jewish spaces is an invitation for scorn or being accused of not being "a real Jew". My similarly liberal friends have families in Israel and we talk about them in hushed voices. I've seen videos of antisemites latching on to peace rallies to shout horrific antisemitic slogans. On the flip side, lots of Jewish community spaces online are turning insular and toxic, often repeating vile Islamophobic bigotry, it's horrible to watch. But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
To borrow a phrase from Michael Chabon, these are strange times to be a Jew. And stranger times to be a Jew with a broken heart.
posted by fight or flight at 3:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [73 favorites]
The water problem in Gaza is, in large part, a fuel problem - there's a major fresh water line from Israel to southern Gaza that is still being supplied, but the water network within Gaza needs fuel to operate the pumps that distribute it.OK, and... so? There's no fuel because Israel has intentionally cut that off, too. So I'm still struggling to see how "Well Hamas is hoarding" is really applicable (or at least how it's all that comparable) to "Israel has cut the water supply off", in anything but a deflectionary sense.
posted by Flunkie at 4:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
Fight or flight, thanks for sharing. I was going to write more, but I don't think it can do any justice.
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by AnyUsernameWillDo at 4:06 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
That "stockpile" article I believe was from NYT. So 'grain of salt' there on the way this is being reported. Part of the Propaganda war. There are probably undoubtably basic stockpiles to keep the active fighters going and always have been and never enough for the civilians.
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 4:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
The history is complex and it is easy to make judgements from afar
evidence shows it is actually impossibly difficult for some people.
lots of longstanding bloody historical conflicts are complex, but the things that get the special rarified romanticized Complexity treatment from internet rhetoricians are the ones that make people in other involved countries feel guilt to think about and discomfort to talk about. genocide is still as wrong as it ever was.
you have to read a lot of history books to fully understand why the israeli government got to this point and from what starting positions, how the people in it could ever believe they are doing acceptable things right now, even perhaps believe that they have no choice. but you do not have to engage in the same kind of dedicated historical study to understand that they are wrong.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
evidence shows it is actually impossibly difficult for some people.
lots of longstanding bloody historical conflicts are complex, but the things that get the special rarified romanticized Complexity treatment from internet rhetoricians are the ones that make people in other involved countries feel guilt to think about and discomfort to talk about. genocide is still as wrong as it ever was.
you have to read a lot of history books to fully understand why the israeli government got to this point and from what starting positions, how the people in it could ever believe they are doing acceptable things right now, even perhaps believe that they have no choice. but you do not have to engage in the same kind of dedicated historical study to understand that they are wrong.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:18 PM on October 28, 2023 [49 favorites]
fight or flight: But these are the spaces where I feel (or felt) comfortable expressing my Jewishness. So where else to go?
I feel like this is happening on Metafilter, at least compared to previous discussions, where the number of Jewish voices taking part gets smaller and quieter each time. Since the Hamas attacks I think a lot of people have been looking for places to grieve, places to process their fear and vulnerability and anger, but the overwhelming military response that we all knew was coming from the state of Israel, all the death and destruction that would come with it, all of the dead children and mangled bodies, all of that squeezed out the space for Jewish grief with knowledge of all the grief to come.
Or something like that. I'm not expressing myself perfectly, but hopefully I'm at least saying something.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
I feel like this is happening on Metafilter, at least compared to previous discussions, where the number of Jewish voices taking part gets smaller and quieter each time. Since the Hamas attacks I think a lot of people have been looking for places to grieve, places to process their fear and vulnerability and anger, but the overwhelming military response that we all knew was coming from the state of Israel, all the death and destruction that would come with it, all of the dead children and mangled bodies, all of that squeezed out the space for Jewish grief with knowledge of all the grief to come.
Or something like that. I'm not expressing myself perfectly, but hopefully I'm at least saying something.
posted by clawsoon at 4:27 PM on October 28, 2023 [32 favorites]
Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 2.4 million people in the Gaza Strip as of 2022, so that makes it about 6.2 million liters per day (about 1.6 million gallons per day).Whoops, I multiplied the liters per day, not the gallons per day, by the number of days. So really it should have been like 130 million liters, not gallons, i.e. about 34 million gallons.
It's been, what, 21 days? So just to get to now, without any left for tomorrow, it's like 130 million gallons?
posted by Flunkie at 4:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Transcript of interview with Dominique De Villepin, former Prime Minister of France, who famously led France's opposition to the Iraq war.
posted by adamvasco at 4:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 4:34 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
decades of support by American conservatives pouring money into Israel for the worst of reasons.
I wanna live in this world where only half the US political elite favors pouring endless money into Israel and its occupation of Palestine. This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I wanna live in this world where only half the US political elite favors pouring endless money into Israel and its occupation of Palestine. This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
clawsoon I get people wanting a place to grieve.
However, if nothing else, turning these threads into a non-critical of Israel space would mean turning away people here who have ties to Palestine and the Palestinian people who are also looking for a place where they feel safe expressing themselves and their views.
This is not a good place for people on any side who feel grief and anguish to commiserate with others who feel the same way. That's not what these threads are for.
I'm pretty sure people with anguish for the suffering of either side who want such a space know where they exist. I mean, I know where a couple exist and I'm not even looking for them.
I don't want the people who feel betrayed, or unappreciated, or unwelcome by the criticism of Israel to leave. The conversation is worse for their absence. But also I don't want to say that the place I love the most on the web isn't a place to discuss what's going on either.
I don't know. I'm sure I've personally been contributory to at least one person deciding not to participate, and I don't like that. I've tried very hard not to be antisemitic and I don't believe myself to be antisemitic.
But I also know I'm not the one who gets to decide if I am or not. Whether or not I am antisemitic is, necessarily, a determination made individually by every Jewish person I interact with.
So I hope Jewish mefites stay, but that's the selfish hope of a person standing at the intersection of nearly every privilege that exists.
So yeah. I don't know.
fight or flight Thank you for linking to @rootmetals. It is indeed informative, educational, and a very good idea to get other people's perspectives on many matters.
I do disagree with more or less everything she says, especially her opposition to a ceasefire. I can see why she's making that argument. I can see how a person can argue that they're not seeking Palestinian blood while also opposing a ceasefire.
I think she's wrong, because even if we agree with her that it's fine to totally ignore Palestinian suffering in our actions because Hamas is awful, what's the end game?
So what happens next without a ceasefire?
No ceasefire means extinction for the people in Gaza. I'm fairly confident Israel has the military strength to keep up their attack indefinitely and eventually kill all the Hamas fighters who don't flee across some border. But doing so will mean killing most of the Palestinians in Gaza, or perhaps at best killing enough that the survivors are willing to become eternal refugees (assuming Netanyahu feels merciful and actually permits them to flee).
I understand why she opposes a ceasefire. But she doesn't appear to have thought through what that means and what the outcome of her proposal will be.
I don't deny that the outcome of the other proposal, the one I favor, a ceasefire and a return to the "normal" of Hamas running everything in Gaza and launching rockets from time to time to blow up random things in Israel and Israel bombing the fuck out of random places in Gaza is horrible. But I don't see any other way to avoid most/all Palestinians being driven out of Gaza or killed.
Maybe, at the end of the day, @rootmetals outcome actually is if not the best, at least the inevitable, outcome. But a choice between genocide on one hand and enduring random rockets on the other? I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
I would also argue the factor @rootmetals leaves out of her analysis is Netanyahu and the other Israeli anti-Palestinian people actively supporting Hamas. Could Hamas have broken all those ceasefires without Netanyahu supporting them? Could they continue to have an iron grip on political power in Gaza without the support of Netanyahu and his associates?
I don't know and neither does anyone else. But I **DO** think that history of the Israeli government actively supporting the extremist terrorists who want to kill them all means Israel owes the people of Gaza a ceasefire and an end to Israeli support of Hamas. Then we'll see where things stand after a decade. And yeah, that's easy for me to say.
But what's the alternative?
posted by sotonohito at 5:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
However, if nothing else, turning these threads into a non-critical of Israel space would mean turning away people here who have ties to Palestine and the Palestinian people who are also looking for a place where they feel safe expressing themselves and their views.
This is not a good place for people on any side who feel grief and anguish to commiserate with others who feel the same way. That's not what these threads are for.
I'm pretty sure people with anguish for the suffering of either side who want such a space know where they exist. I mean, I know where a couple exist and I'm not even looking for them.
I don't want the people who feel betrayed, or unappreciated, or unwelcome by the criticism of Israel to leave. The conversation is worse for their absence. But also I don't want to say that the place I love the most on the web isn't a place to discuss what's going on either.
I don't know. I'm sure I've personally been contributory to at least one person deciding not to participate, and I don't like that. I've tried very hard not to be antisemitic and I don't believe myself to be antisemitic.
But I also know I'm not the one who gets to decide if I am or not. Whether or not I am antisemitic is, necessarily, a determination made individually by every Jewish person I interact with.
So I hope Jewish mefites stay, but that's the selfish hope of a person standing at the intersection of nearly every privilege that exists.
So yeah. I don't know.
fight or flight Thank you for linking to @rootmetals. It is indeed informative, educational, and a very good idea to get other people's perspectives on many matters.
I do disagree with more or less everything she says, especially her opposition to a ceasefire. I can see why she's making that argument. I can see how a person can argue that they're not seeking Palestinian blood while also opposing a ceasefire.
I think she's wrong, because even if we agree with her that it's fine to totally ignore Palestinian suffering in our actions because Hamas is awful, what's the end game?
So what happens next without a ceasefire?
No ceasefire means extinction for the people in Gaza. I'm fairly confident Israel has the military strength to keep up their attack indefinitely and eventually kill all the Hamas fighters who don't flee across some border. But doing so will mean killing most of the Palestinians in Gaza, or perhaps at best killing enough that the survivors are willing to become eternal refugees (assuming Netanyahu feels merciful and actually permits them to flee).
I understand why she opposes a ceasefire. But she doesn't appear to have thought through what that means and what the outcome of her proposal will be.
I don't deny that the outcome of the other proposal, the one I favor, a ceasefire and a return to the "normal" of Hamas running everything in Gaza and launching rockets from time to time to blow up random things in Israel and Israel bombing the fuck out of random places in Gaza is horrible. But I don't see any other way to avoid most/all Palestinians being driven out of Gaza or killed.
Maybe, at the end of the day, @rootmetals outcome actually is if not the best, at least the inevitable, outcome. But a choice between genocide on one hand and enduring random rockets on the other? I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
I would also argue the factor @rootmetals leaves out of her analysis is Netanyahu and the other Israeli anti-Palestinian people actively supporting Hamas. Could Hamas have broken all those ceasefires without Netanyahu supporting them? Could they continue to have an iron grip on political power in Gaza without the support of Netanyahu and his associates?
I don't know and neither does anyone else. But I **DO** think that history of the Israeli government actively supporting the extremist terrorists who want to kill them all means Israel owes the people of Gaza a ceasefire and an end to Israeli support of Hamas. Then we'll see where things stand after a decade. And yeah, that's easy for me to say.
But what's the alternative?
posted by sotonohito at 5:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
What happens next is a lot of unknowns. How long will Hamas fight? Will Israel be so bloodied by the experience that they have to pull back as they did the last time they invaded Lebanon? Will Iran, Syria, Yemen (Houthi) and Hezbollah escalate the war? What does Biden do if Israel goes too far? Can Israel go to far for Biden? No one knows.
posted by interogative mood at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
sotonohito: clawsoon I get people wanting a place to grieve.
I'll say that I didn't go into the previous discussion with that in mind. I'm not particularly emotionally intelligent - I'm the guy who was telling Americans on the morning of 9/11 that America deserved it - and my instincts here are firmly with Palestinian civilians, who are facing not just horror but also explanations that their horror isn't so bad because it's being rained down on them in a civilized way.
But underneath all the arguments we were having in the other thread there was some kind of sadness, not only for Jewish deaths or for Palestinian deaths but also for the extremist takeovers of government that have made so many more deaths inevitable. We are a long way from the optimism of 1994, and it seems like we might never be able to get back there, and that's something to grieve, too.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
I'll say that I didn't go into the previous discussion with that in mind. I'm not particularly emotionally intelligent - I'm the guy who was telling Americans on the morning of 9/11 that America deserved it - and my instincts here are firmly with Palestinian civilians, who are facing not just horror but also explanations that their horror isn't so bad because it's being rained down on them in a civilized way.
But underneath all the arguments we were having in the other thread there was some kind of sadness, not only for Jewish deaths or for Palestinian deaths but also for the extremist takeovers of government that have made so many more deaths inevitable. We are a long way from the optimism of 1994, and it seems like we might never be able to get back there, and that's something to grieve, too.
posted by clawsoon at 6:00 PM on October 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
Coming into this thread very late, I grieve with all of you. I want peace for all of us. I also hope Israel can be pressured into a cease fire. I detest Netanyahu deeply. I am an American Jew, and I have been heartbroken since October 7th, more so every day.
Where I get stuck is being able to envision a good outcome of any sort. Israel did give Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005, and Hamas kept attacking. Hamas is fairly upfront in saying, time and and time again, they want to kill all the Jews, including me. I don't know how to create peace with that kind of enemy. I just don't see it. I desperately wish I could.
Zooming out a bit, I am also deeply disappointing with the surrounding Arabic community for not providing at least temporary refuge for the Palestinians. Egypt could open it's border. They are right there. And yet, they do not.
posted by birdsongster at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Where I get stuck is being able to envision a good outcome of any sort. Israel did give Gaza back to the Palestinians in 2005, and Hamas kept attacking. Hamas is fairly upfront in saying, time and and time again, they want to kill all the Jews, including me. I don't know how to create peace with that kind of enemy. I just don't see it. I desperately wish I could.
Zooming out a bit, I am also deeply disappointing with the surrounding Arabic community for not providing at least temporary refuge for the Palestinians. Egypt could open it's border. They are right there. And yet, they do not.
posted by birdsongster at 6:05 PM on October 28, 2023 [18 favorites]
Here is an article in Foreign Affairs Magazine that makes the case for the invasion of Gaza as the least bad option. The author James Jeffrey is very experienced senior American diplomat with decades of experience. I'm passing this along because it is useful to understand what people with power and influence are saying. Not out of any particular agreement.
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:10 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Sharing this video of a spokesperson from Israeli human rights org B'Tselem on ABC, because I think it's worth circulating more widely. (It's a Xitter link, sorry.)
They discuss how numerous supporters and members of B'Tselem were murdered or taken captive on October 7, and express a still unwavering opposition to Israeli policy in Gaza and a commitment to a "shared future" for Palestinians and Israelis.
It's worth a watch--I can't say for certain I'd find myself in their ideological position if I personally knew people who were attacked on Oct. 7, which makes this person something of a hero to me.
posted by kensington314 at 6:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
They discuss how numerous supporters and members of B'Tselem were murdered or taken captive on October 7, and express a still unwavering opposition to Israeli policy in Gaza and a commitment to a "shared future" for Palestinians and Israelis.
It's worth a watch--I can't say for certain I'd find myself in their ideological position if I personally knew people who were attacked on Oct. 7, which makes this person something of a hero to me.
posted by kensington314 at 6:14 PM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Egypt and other Arab countries do not want to take in any more Palestinian refugees on account of past history suggesting that they never get to go home again. I think the pressure needs to be put on Israel to take in and house refugees from Gaza rather than simply tell people go hide in southern Gaza while we clean out the north, then you can go back to the north while we hit the south. Israel is the one place that if Palestinian refugees were going they would have a lot of confidence they would be going home again as soon as possible.
posted by interogative mood at 6:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 6:17 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Palestinians would also rightfully distrust that they'd be permitted to return by Israel once in Egypt or Jordan (in addition to Egypt's attitudes, having once been in charge of Gaza). Or to Gaza, if moved to the West Bank, for that matter. Were Israel to offer to shuttle them there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Palestinians would also rightfully distrust that they'd be permitted to return by Israel once in Egypt or Jordan (in addition to Egypt's attitudes, having once been in charge of Gaza).
I mean, yes, but—isn't that their choice to make? If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, yes, but—isn't that their choice to make? If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:28 PM on October 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I expect there would be a lot of refugees who would indeed make that choice which is precisely why Egypt won't open the gate. The states around Israel are no friends to Palestinians apart from using them for their own political ends.
posted by Justinian at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Once refugee camps across the border exist, it become possible to cast not fleeing to them as a choice in which those remaining are imputed to have assumed the risk of remaining. So aside from neighbors' existing disinclination to help (Egypt's history, Jordan's client relationships), there is that calculation.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
We are a long way from the optimism of 1994
I think almost daily of Yitzhak Rabin and what could have been.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 PM on October 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
I think almost daily of Yitzhak Rabin and what could have been.
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:37 PM on October 28, 2023 [31 favorites]
If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another
Can Israel in good conscience be trusted that its special military operation isn't another land grab (one which is still currently going on in the West Bank)?
This bloody mess is the result of policy by the Israeli state and particularly by that of leaders of its right-wing extremist government, who encourage settlers and expansion into land that is not theirs, as determined by the UN.
One consequence of that is little or no trust that refugees would be able to get back to their homes, let alone those homes left standing in the rubble, and that probably feeds into the calculations that neighboring states have to make. Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on October 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Can Israel in good conscience be trusted that its special military operation isn't another land grab (one which is still currently going on in the West Bank)?
This bloody mess is the result of policy by the Israeli state and particularly by that of leaders of its right-wing extremist government, who encourage settlers and expansion into land that is not theirs, as determined by the UN.
One consequence of that is little or no trust that refugees would be able to get back to their homes, let alone those homes left standing in the rubble, and that probably feeds into the calculations that neighboring states have to make. Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on October 28, 2023 [12 favorites]
Rabin and Sharon both men who late in their lives came to understand that Israel needed to end its expansionist policies and get out while Israel could. Both of them tragically had their lives cut short. Also don’t forget Arafat turning down the deal offered by Ehud Barack in 1999 at Camp David.
And of course what really sealed the door on the tomb was the efforts to divide the Palestinians and ensure there was no unifying leader after Arafat. Guys like Marwan Barghouti who could have been a credible successor are rotting in Israeli prisons.
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
And of course what really sealed the door on the tomb was the efforts to divide the Palestinians and ensure there was no unifying leader after Arafat. Guys like Marwan Barghouti who could have been a credible successor are rotting in Israeli prisons.
posted by interogative mood at 6:52 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Once refugee camps across the border exist, it become possible to cast not fleeing to them as a choice in which those remaining are imputed to have assumed the risk of remaining. So aside from neighbors' existing disinclination to help (Egypt's history, Jordan's client relationships), there is that calculation.
Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
My naive response: I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I do understand this, but on another level... I think of the states who turned away Jewish refugees in the late '30s, and how harshly we criticize, e.g., the US's treatment of the passengers aboard the St. Louis. I know it's bad form to draw Holocaust comparisons (from the one side: but what's happening in Gaza isn't a genocide!—and from the other: but that was not a fight over land, like this is!), but that's the one that comes to mind, and I feel compelled to apply the same ethical principle here.
In the end, lives are more important than land, and while neighboring countries (to say nothing of countries even further out—Europe or America could volunteer to take in refugees transiting through Egypt or Jordan, for example) may have sound political reasons not to take refugees, it's a pretty morally fraught decision. (If a lot less fraught than, say, the decision to make a bunch of refugees in the first place.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Taking in refugees who will in all likelihood not be allowed back home is a huge commitment.
My naive response: I don't know. I mean, on the one hand, I do understand this, but on another level... I think of the states who turned away Jewish refugees in the late '30s, and how harshly we criticize, e.g., the US's treatment of the passengers aboard the St. Louis. I know it's bad form to draw Holocaust comparisons (from the one side: but what's happening in Gaza isn't a genocide!—and from the other: but that was not a fight over land, like this is!), but that's the one that comes to mind, and I feel compelled to apply the same ethical principle here.
In the end, lives are more important than land, and while neighboring countries (to say nothing of countries even further out—Europe or America could volunteer to take in refugees transiting through Egypt or Jordan, for example) may have sound political reasons not to take refugees, it's a pretty morally fraught decision. (If a lot less fraught than, say, the decision to make a bunch of refugees in the first place.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Gershon Baskin, Award winning Times of Israel columnist, has negotiated with Hammas since 2006.
The Future of Hamas after October 7, 2023 – Part 1
“We Israelis must begin to confront the delusion that we have been living for decades. You cannot lock more than 2 million people into a human cage & expect quiet.”
I have repeatedly said in the Israeli Television studios that Israel cannot create deterrence against Hamas. Not only are Hamas fighters and leaders not afraid to die, they recruit Hamas fighters from early ages from bereaved families immediately after each round of conflict. They are then educated in the (distorted) Islamic values of dying for Palestine, for Allah, for Islam, for Al Aqsa and to get revenge for the death of their father, brother, mother, sister, etc. They truly believe that life on earth is short and only has true meaning if you become a martyr, a shaheed for Allah, Palestine, Al Aqsa, Islam and to get revenge. Becoming a shaheed is the guarantee to eternal paradise which is so much more important that the short life in this world. How can you build deterrence against this? But the retired generals in the TV studios never agreed and never listened, as well as the generals and politicians who make the real decisions about what Israel does.
posted by adamvasco at 7:04 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
The Future of Hamas after October 7, 2023 – Part 1
“We Israelis must begin to confront the delusion that we have been living for decades. You cannot lock more than 2 million people into a human cage & expect quiet.”
I have repeatedly said in the Israeli Television studios that Israel cannot create deterrence against Hamas. Not only are Hamas fighters and leaders not afraid to die, they recruit Hamas fighters from early ages from bereaved families immediately after each round of conflict. They are then educated in the (distorted) Islamic values of dying for Palestine, for Allah, for Islam, for Al Aqsa and to get revenge for the death of their father, brother, mother, sister, etc. They truly believe that life on earth is short and only has true meaning if you become a martyr, a shaheed for Allah, Palestine, Al Aqsa, Islam and to get revenge. Becoming a shaheed is the guarantee to eternal paradise which is so much more important that the short life in this world. How can you build deterrence against this? But the retired generals in the TV studios never agreed and never listened, as well as the generals and politicians who make the real decisions about what Israel does.
posted by adamvasco at 7:04 PM on October 28, 2023 [27 favorites]
My ancestors came to the United States fleeing pogroms in Europe. I am pretty sure they would have rather stayed home. I am pretty sure they didn't really want to uproot their entire lives to get on a crappy ship, spend months at sea, and start a new life thousands of miles away in a country where they didn't speak the language. But I am alive today because they did. And none of them ever ever went back.
I think every single person posting on this thread wants people not to die. We are all horrified at the every increasing violence and loss of civilian life. I think many of us wish there were something we could actually do.
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.
posted by birdsongster at 7:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
I think every single person posting on this thread wants people not to die. We are all horrified at the every increasing violence and loss of civilian life. I think many of us wish there were something we could actually do.
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.
posted by birdsongster at 7:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
Sack implies that the invaders are mostly looting. Get in, get gold, get out. Yes, there's going to be a lot of murders and other crimes, but it's not in my armchair historian perspective the correct term. Level or especially raze seems much more accurate. Israel has already made sure there isn't much worth stealing, aside from the land and human lives built there. I don't think there is going to be much livable housing in northern Gaza when Israel is done.
Vox, Palestinians correctly fear permanent displacement at best, with a ton of Israeli politicians quotes.
On a personal level of a deeply unnecessary conflict that is causing horrific trauma and death to people of all kinds, my Israeli friend is kinda breaking my heart. She's queer, highly educated and in a helping/healing career, and went from protesting the massive right wing abuses and corruption of civilian government, to the war is necessary. Sigh. Terror always benefits those who would force control. Israel Patriot Act here we come. Please stop shooting civilians, everybody.
posted by Jacen at 7:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Vox, Palestinians correctly fear permanent displacement at best, with a ton of Israeli politicians quotes.
On a personal level of a deeply unnecessary conflict that is causing horrific trauma and death to people of all kinds, my Israeli friend is kinda breaking my heart. She's queer, highly educated and in a helping/healing career, and went from protesting the massive right wing abuses and corruption of civilian government, to the war is necessary. Sigh. Terror always benefits those who would force control. Israel Patriot Act here we come. Please stop shooting civilians, everybody.
posted by Jacen at 7:31 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The proposed long term ceasefire or Hunda in the article adamvasco linked requires Israel to abandon its long held demand that any deal has to include recognition of Israel’s right to exist and have a permanent border. It is very hard to sell Israelis on the idea that they will just let Hamas run Gaza under a ceasefire, rearm and continue to have the the threat of war. I don’t know how you sell the idea when ceasefire after previous rounds of violence and partial opening of Gaza has seemed to just allow Hamas to arm for the next war. I also don’t see why Hamas gets a pass one something that is obviously fundamental to a peace deal as mutual recognition.
posted by interogative mood at 7:33 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:33 PM on October 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Israeli forces have killed 2270 Palestinian minors since the start of occupation. Hamas and other Palestinian groups have killed a total of 145.
Israeli forces have, overall, killed 20x more children than Palestinian forces. When it comes to sympathy for a civilian population, it isn't a difficult knowing which one my heart aches for more.
posted by paimapi at 7:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Israeli forces have, overall, killed 20x more children than Palestinian forces. When it comes to sympathy for a civilian population, it isn't a difficult knowing which one my heart aches for more.
posted by paimapi at 7:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Also adding to what Justinian wrote about Israel being unable to show any sign of weakness lest 20 neighbours declare war on them -
This is a large part of how Hamas gained power and influence - by building the narrative that they "won" against Israel in 2005 when Israel destroyed all their settlements and left Gaza. Hamas attacked and bombed Israel enough that they were forced to withdraw, so now all Palestinians should support us and we will win even greater victories, claim even more land. Heck, if West Bank were to have elections now, it's likely they will vote Hamas as well, so they have a shot at expelling all Jewish settlers just like in Gaza.
The security situation in Gaza has deteriorated markedly since 2005 when Israel showed signs of "weakness" - so you can be sure that Israel will absolutely not be going down that path again.
Looking at it from their point of view, building more settlements (West Bank) has allowed them to maintain security and weaken extremist groups, while destroying their settlements and withdrawing (Gaza) has allowed extremist groups to claim victory, massively grow their support and weapon arsenals - compare the number of rockets fired by Hamas today compared to 2005.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is a large part of how Hamas gained power and influence - by building the narrative that they "won" against Israel in 2005 when Israel destroyed all their settlements and left Gaza. Hamas attacked and bombed Israel enough that they were forced to withdraw, so now all Palestinians should support us and we will win even greater victories, claim even more land. Heck, if West Bank were to have elections now, it's likely they will vote Hamas as well, so they have a shot at expelling all Jewish settlers just like in Gaza.
The security situation in Gaza has deteriorated markedly since 2005 when Israel showed signs of "weakness" - so you can be sure that Israel will absolutely not be going down that path again.
Looking at it from their point of view, building more settlements (West Bank) has allowed them to maintain security and weaken extremist groups, while destroying their settlements and withdrawing (Gaza) has allowed extremist groups to claim victory, massively grow their support and weapon arsenals - compare the number of rockets fired by Hamas today compared to 2005.
posted by xdvesper at 7:56 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe I am crazy, maybe this is geopolitically implausible dream, but I do think a warm welcome of Palestinian refugees across the globe, and especially in neighboring Arabic countries, could at least alleviate the tragic deaths and pain going on now.The surrounding countries have taken in millions of Palestinian refugees over the last seven decades, and none of them have been allowed back into Israel. A lot of them are still living in camps to this day.
posted by zymil at 7:57 PM on October 28, 2023 [20 favorites]
I'm under the impression that Israel occupied Gaza from 1967-2005, and Ariel Sharon pulled back from that. Which more or less immediately triggered the Netanyahu government and the blockade. I don't support Hamas violence (And certainly not Israeli disproportionate collective improvement and punishment) but I can understand how 15 years of what is commonly described as a full on prison enforced by a heavily armed country could and does lead to violence.
At some point you have to wonder how much Israeli right wing goals means that peace is less beneficial than collecting land and reasons to keep pushing.
posted by Jacen at 8:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
At some point you have to wonder how much Israeli right wing goals means that peace is less beneficial than collecting land and reasons to keep pushing.
posted by Jacen at 8:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [9 favorites]
The blockade was started after Hamas won the Palestinian elections and took control of Gaza. That was separate from the withdrawal under Sharon. The blockade and sanctions have been harder at tines and have been eased at times as part of various ceasefire agreements. There have also been secret negotiations in Egypt as both parties officially reject the idea of direct talks since Israel has long preconditioned official talks on renouncing terrorism and accepting the right of an Israel to exist as a country.
Netanyahu has played a lot of games with the flow of money and aid to Gaza over the years. He will claim it is part of a strategy to maintain peace but he has been caught on tape saying it had a far more cynical purpose of keeping Hamas in power to divide the Palestinians and prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing.
Gaza is often described as a prison but the reality is more complicated. There are a lot of poor people, but there were also luxury apartments, day spas and shopping districts, even a university with international students. When I visited a few years ago it was much different than I expected. It felt like a lot of other places in the developing world under an authoritarian regime and high rates of poverty.
The controls on leaving and returning to Gaza for locals are horrible. The Hamas government is less corrupt than the PA according to most and does a good job providing services and welfare despite the sanctions/ blockade. Obviously none of that can outweigh the other things Hamas does like shooting rockets at civilians, murdering and kidnapping civilians, conducting terrorist attacks, etc.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
Netanyahu has played a lot of games with the flow of money and aid to Gaza over the years. He will claim it is part of a strategy to maintain peace but he has been caught on tape saying it had a far more cynical purpose of keeping Hamas in power to divide the Palestinians and prevent a Palestinian state from ever existing.
Gaza is often described as a prison but the reality is more complicated. There are a lot of poor people, but there were also luxury apartments, day spas and shopping districts, even a university with international students. When I visited a few years ago it was much different than I expected. It felt like a lot of other places in the developing world under an authoritarian regime and high rates of poverty.
The controls on leaving and returning to Gaza for locals are horrible. The Hamas government is less corrupt than the PA according to most and does a good job providing services and welfare despite the sanctions/ blockade. Obviously none of that can outweigh the other things Hamas does like shooting rockets at civilians, murdering and kidnapping civilians, conducting terrorist attacks, etc.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 PM on October 28, 2023 [11 favorites]
This is one of the few universal bipartisan issues. Sadly, you bring up a good point that is a real problem - but it's easy to fall into the trap of false equivalency.
American Jews are far more aligned with the Democratic party, as shown by a 2021 Pew Research Center report.
The money coming from Republicans into Israel is working against the interests of most American Jews. It's coming from a party that has shown strong autocratic tendencies of late, a party that values strongman leaders very similar to Netanyahu. The money coming from Democrats has a chance of pressuring Israel to behave in a fashion that most American Jews want, a chance to chart a course more like President Carter and other leaders like him would help them work out.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
American Jews are far more aligned with the Democratic party, as shown by a 2021 Pew Research Center report.
The money coming from Republicans into Israel is working against the interests of most American Jews. It's coming from a party that has shown strong autocratic tendencies of late, a party that values strongman leaders very similar to Netanyahu. The money coming from Democrats has a chance of pressuring Israel to behave in a fashion that most American Jews want, a chance to chart a course more like President Carter and other leaders like him would help them work out.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 9:01 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Private money might be predominantly explicitly right-aligned, but the greater portion of aid to Israel comes directly from the US government, and the equivalency of the votes on that is not false. With very very rare Democratic exceptions, supposedly normal-brained lawmakers are just as rabidly Zionist as insane apocalypse-cult evangelicals.
posted by jy4m at 9:39 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by jy4m at 9:39 PM on October 28, 2023 [14 favorites]
I realize this is naive and maybe Pollyannish, but what prevents the US from making parachute airdrops of humanitarian supplies at the southern end of Gaza?
If the US were inclined to bust the blockade they wouldn't need something as logistically fraught as parachutes. Gaza borders the Mediterranean and Israel is currently mounting a naval blockade. The US could roll up with whatever bulk carriers they wanted and park them in Gaza ports and not have to have the cooperation of anyone but the Palestinians. Choosing not to is one of the ways they are complicent in the the Israeli's operation. Arguably one of the purposes for the position of the carrier groups is to strengthen that blockade by sending a strong message to anyone considering running the blockade that they'll also have to bypass the carrier groups.
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
Even if true a large stockpile for (number from earlier in the thread) 30-40K Hamas members is a drop in the bucket for the two order of magnitude greater number of Palistinians. A hundred days of stockpile for Hamas would last a single day if distributed equally.
posted by Mitheral at 11:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
If the US were inclined to bust the blockade they wouldn't need something as logistically fraught as parachutes. Gaza borders the Mediterranean and Israel is currently mounting a naval blockade. The US could roll up with whatever bulk carriers they wanted and park them in Gaza ports and not have to have the cooperation of anyone but the Palestinians. Choosing not to is one of the ways they are complicent in the the Israeli's operation. Arguably one of the purposes for the position of the carrier groups is to strengthen that blockade by sending a strong message to anyone considering running the blockade that they'll also have to bypass the carrier groups.
Well, one thing that's being discussed in the news today is the broad consensus among informed observers that the Hamas leadership in Gaza is sitting on a large stockpile of supplies (including food, water, medicine, and fuel), but is choosing not to share them with the civilian population they rule.
Even if true a large stockpile for (number from earlier in the thread) 30-40K Hamas members is a drop in the bucket for the two order of magnitude greater number of Palistinians. A hundred days of stockpile for Hamas would last a single day if distributed equally.
posted by Mitheral at 11:16 PM on October 28, 2023 [10 favorites]
How does the US Government gain from all this funding and support, what do they get for their quid? 'Cause it sure doesn't make the Middle East more stable (or the globe), or is it really just to appease US end-times fundies (as they know God doesn't work like that, it's the ultimate hubris)? It's never made sense, I know the roots of Britain's involvement go back to WW1, but why the US?
posted by unearthed at 11:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by unearthed at 11:40 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Some comments from earlier deleted. We definitely don't need to begin interrogating the ethnic, religious, etc. identities of our fellow members. In general, please focus on news and facts rather than other people in the thread.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Air dropping aid into an area of active combat would get a lot of people killed. I’ve read some news reports that there is a lot of aid being shipped in and pre-positioned in Egypt and Israel with the goal of getting trucks with fuel, medicine and fuel to be ready to send in behind the IDF as areas are secured. We’ll see. I’m not holding my breath.
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
jackbishop posted a prescient comment in the previous thread.
TL;DR - The Amaleks are a Biblical enemy of Israel, who absolutely are not predecessors of modern Palestiniansm but they are, conveniently the enemy about whom G*d told the Israelites, "you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven". (Deut 25:19)
Which brings us to Netanyahu today:
TL;DR - The Amaleks are a Biblical enemy of Israel, who absolutely are not predecessors of modern Palestiniansm but they are, conveniently the enemy about whom G*d told the Israelites, "you shall blot out the name of Amalek from under heaven". (Deut 25:19)
Which brings us to Netanyahu today:
“They are determined to eradicate this evil from the world, for our existence and, I add, for all of humanity,” he says. The premier quotes the biblical injunction to remember what the Amalekites did to the Israelites. “We remember, and we are fighting.”posted by bcd at 11:41 PM on October 28, 2023 [3 favorites]
“They are determined to eradicate this evil from the world, for our existence and, I add, for all of humanity,” he says. The premier quotes the biblical injunction to remember what the Amalekites did to the Israelites. “We remember, and we are fighting.”1 Samuel 15:3
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass
posted by nikodym at 1:05 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One removed. See note above about sticking to facts and info rather than focusing on other participants. Also, refrain from graphically violent / horrific descriptions and broadbrush accusations against other members.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:19 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
How does the US Government gain from all this funding and support, what do they get for their quid?
I wondered the same and found this Vox article from 2014.
I am with you all in grief. My heart is unbelievably heavy. I have made a point of not looking away from the horrible videos and images, not sure how wise that is from a psychological angle but I felt the need to witness what these people - these children, mostly, have gone through. That video of the little girl in a unicorn dress talking about how she is scared of the bombs and can't wait to go back to school and play with her friends - I cannot even type the words without crying.
I cannot help but fear the impact of this level of trauma on the remaining population, whatever happens to them, wherever they end up. How it will filter down through generations. As a Muslim with Jewish friends and in-laws, this feels very weighted down, very complicated and very personal.
posted by unicorn chaser at 2:56 AM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
I wondered the same and found this Vox article from 2014.
I am with you all in grief. My heart is unbelievably heavy. I have made a point of not looking away from the horrible videos and images, not sure how wise that is from a psychological angle but I felt the need to witness what these people - these children, mostly, have gone through. That video of the little girl in a unicorn dress talking about how she is scared of the bombs and can't wait to go back to school and play with her friends - I cannot even type the words without crying.
I cannot help but fear the impact of this level of trauma on the remaining population, whatever happens to them, wherever they end up. How it will filter down through generations. As a Muslim with Jewish friends and in-laws, this feels very weighted down, very complicated and very personal.
posted by unicorn chaser at 2:56 AM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
unearthed I don't think the US has much in the way of a real specific and unified goal. All American politicians benefit from an unstable and dangerous Middle East, I think therefore when politicians speak about wanting stability in the Middle East they're simply lying. American voters have a long and proven history of supporting war and voting for politicians who call for war the loudest.
American arms manufacturers like any war because it means bigger profits. Junior's wars sent most of the around five trillion dollars his wars cost from American taxpayers to the bank accounts of arms executives.
As for Israel in specific, Republicans strongly favor continuing to pass American tax dollars through Israel to American arms manufacturers, and so do a large number of Democrats. Keeping tax dollars going from poor Americans to the merchants of war is a bipartisan project. Remember, the "aid" sent to Israel is all for weapons and those weapons come from American corporations.
Additionally to the prevalence of Scofield derived apocalyptic beliefs among many/most of the Republican voters is a huge factor in Republican support for Israel. Without getting into details, a large block of American Christians believe Israel must expand to roughly its Biblical borders and be completely dominated by Jews as a precondition for the end of the world. And they want the world to end. So a large and vocal block of American Christians is in direct agreement with the Israeli right wing insofar as both want Israel to expand its borders and keep Jews as the overwhelming majority in those borders.
The Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Some, like Schumer, are personally Zionists at least in the sense of wanting Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland and while they may despise the right wing Israeli government, and genuinely feel anguish over the treatment of the Palestinian people, in the end their commitment to Zionism (however they define it) outweighs their dislike of Likud and its allies and their concern for Palestinian people.
I suspect a great many Democrats take a more cynical view and simply vote for whatever the latest "support Israel" bill demands because they view Jewish Americans as a valuable and consistent voting block and believe that despite complaints from more left wing Jewish Americans voting to allow the Israeli government to do whatever it wants to Palestinians is a means of securing those Jewish votes.
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
posted by sotonohito at 5:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
American arms manufacturers like any war because it means bigger profits. Junior's wars sent most of the around five trillion dollars his wars cost from American taxpayers to the bank accounts of arms executives.
As for Israel in specific, Republicans strongly favor continuing to pass American tax dollars through Israel to American arms manufacturers, and so do a large number of Democrats. Keeping tax dollars going from poor Americans to the merchants of war is a bipartisan project. Remember, the "aid" sent to Israel is all for weapons and those weapons come from American corporations.
Additionally to the prevalence of Scofield derived apocalyptic beliefs among many/most of the Republican voters is a huge factor in Republican support for Israel. Without getting into details, a large block of American Christians believe Israel must expand to roughly its Biblical borders and be completely dominated by Jews as a precondition for the end of the world. And they want the world to end. So a large and vocal block of American Christians is in direct agreement with the Israeli right wing insofar as both want Israel to expand its borders and keep Jews as the overwhelming majority in those borders.
The Democrats are more of a mixed bag. Some, like Schumer, are personally Zionists at least in the sense of wanting Israel to exist as a Jewish homeland and while they may despise the right wing Israeli government, and genuinely feel anguish over the treatment of the Palestinian people, in the end their commitment to Zionism (however they define it) outweighs their dislike of Likud and its allies and their concern for Palestinian people.
I suspect a great many Democrats take a more cynical view and simply vote for whatever the latest "support Israel" bill demands because they view Jewish Americans as a valuable and consistent voting block and believe that despite complaints from more left wing Jewish Americans voting to allow the Israeli government to do whatever it wants to Palestinians is a means of securing those Jewish votes.
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
posted by sotonohito at 5:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [14 favorites]
America has no singular reason for "supporting" Israel. It has a huge confusion of often mutually opposed reasons that coincidentally all have the same end result: weapons and money to buy weapons going to Israel.
I had this whole plan to come in from my morning walk and write up something about the motivations of Americans in funding Israel, and you saved me the trouble! Thank you. Your perspective doesn't exactly match mine, but it's close enough.
The Philly Inquirer has a really deep op-ed by Trudy Rubin this morning, and I think it gives a good idea of the perspective of many 'Zionist' American Jews. Take a look if you want that view.
(and someone can post an Archive version once it's available)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 6:01 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I had this whole plan to come in from my morning walk and write up something about the motivations of Americans in funding Israel, and you saved me the trouble! Thank you. Your perspective doesn't exactly match mine, but it's close enough.
The Philly Inquirer has a really deep op-ed by Trudy Rubin this morning, and I think it gives a good idea of the perspective of many 'Zionist' American Jews. Take a look if you want that view.
(and someone can post an Archive version once it's available)
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 6:01 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
If Egypt or Jordan allowed refugees and nobody took them up on the offer, that would be one thing; but to not even offer the option is another. I'm not sure that everyone's (pretty justifiable) wariness of Israeli intentions is enough to exculpate neighboring governments entirely; there can be bad decisions made on multiple sides.
The Arab states dare not accept any Palestinian refugees due to the civil wars or unrest they have incited - this is going to be a historical overview and rather link heavy.
Fundamentally, the PLO and Hamas are heavily armed terrorist organizations with broad support among their population, and any large population of refugees has continued to support their causes, whatever they are.
Jordan was hosting 200,000 Palestinian refugees in 1970 when they - under the PLO - tried to overthrow Jordan's Hashemite monarchy, in the Black September civil war (Wiki). They hijacked 3 planes, shot at King Hussein's motorcade several times, and even elicited foreign forces in the form of the PLA from Syria who crossed the border with 300 tanks to support the PLO. Rocket attacks by the PLO from Jordanian territory into Israel put Jordan in a precarious position - they were now being attacked by their Arab neighbours and Israel at the same time, and were in a position where they had to attack their own cities occupied by the PLO to appease Israel. Black September gunmen assassinated Jordan's Prime Minister in 1971 (Wiki).
Going back further in time, even Jordan's King Abdullah (Wiki) was assassinated by a Palestinian extremist in 1951.
Lebanon was hosting 400,000 Palestinian refugees when in 1975, the central command of PLO armed activities shifted to Lebanon after the Black September civil war ended with a Jordanian victory. The PLO created a "state within a state" in Lebanon and took control of the southern part of the country, resulting in the Lebanese civil war (Wiki) which lasted 15 years and ended with 120,000 fatalities. Similar to the experience in Jordan, the PLO were simultaneously attacking Israel and Lebanon at the same time.
Israel decided to invade Lebanon to stop the attacks from the PLO, so they intervened in the 1982 Lebanon War (Wiki) to help the Lebanese Maronite government root out the PLO and expel them from the country once and for all. 20,500 PLO and Fatah fighters were besieged in Beirut for 2 months before finally surrendering and were offered safe passage out of the country - they then moved the PLO base of operations to Tunisia.
As for Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood (Wiki) is a designated terrorist group, and Hamas is an offshoot of that - that whole saga has lasted almost 100 years with multiple crackdowns and mass arrests and executions. While Hamas has recently claimed to have broken ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, their neighbours aren't convinced.
There were 287,000 Palestinians in Kuwait (Wikipedia) after the war in 1991. Due to the Palestinians support for both the PLO and Saddam Hussein, virtually all were expelled from the country in a single week and told never to return.
---
So you can see why Egypt's border with Gaza is even more fortified and restricted than Israel's.
Egypt has literally salted the earth by pumping seawater into Rafah (Reuters), in order to destroy 1,900 tunnels used for smuggling weapons. Arable farmland was destroyed and their wells were poisoned, making them even more reliant on outside sources for food and water. Israel hasn't done anything like that - yet.
posted by xdvesper at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2023 [31 favorites]
The Arab states dare not accept any Palestinian refugees due to the civil wars or unrest they have incited - this is going to be a historical overview and rather link heavy.
Fundamentally, the PLO and Hamas are heavily armed terrorist organizations with broad support among their population, and any large population of refugees has continued to support their causes, whatever they are.
Jordan was hosting 200,000 Palestinian refugees in 1970 when they - under the PLO - tried to overthrow Jordan's Hashemite monarchy, in the Black September civil war (Wiki). They hijacked 3 planes, shot at King Hussein's motorcade several times, and even elicited foreign forces in the form of the PLA from Syria who crossed the border with 300 tanks to support the PLO. Rocket attacks by the PLO from Jordanian territory into Israel put Jordan in a precarious position - they were now being attacked by their Arab neighbours and Israel at the same time, and were in a position where they had to attack their own cities occupied by the PLO to appease Israel. Black September gunmen assassinated Jordan's Prime Minister in 1971 (Wiki).
Going back further in time, even Jordan's King Abdullah (Wiki) was assassinated by a Palestinian extremist in 1951.
Lebanon was hosting 400,000 Palestinian refugees when in 1975, the central command of PLO armed activities shifted to Lebanon after the Black September civil war ended with a Jordanian victory. The PLO created a "state within a state" in Lebanon and took control of the southern part of the country, resulting in the Lebanese civil war (Wiki) which lasted 15 years and ended with 120,000 fatalities. Similar to the experience in Jordan, the PLO were simultaneously attacking Israel and Lebanon at the same time.
Israel decided to invade Lebanon to stop the attacks from the PLO, so they intervened in the 1982 Lebanon War (Wiki) to help the Lebanese Maronite government root out the PLO and expel them from the country once and for all. 20,500 PLO and Fatah fighters were besieged in Beirut for 2 months before finally surrendering and were offered safe passage out of the country - they then moved the PLO base of operations to Tunisia.
As for Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood (Wiki) is a designated terrorist group, and Hamas is an offshoot of that - that whole saga has lasted almost 100 years with multiple crackdowns and mass arrests and executions. While Hamas has recently claimed to have broken ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, their neighbours aren't convinced.
There were 287,000 Palestinians in Kuwait (Wikipedia) after the war in 1991. Due to the Palestinians support for both the PLO and Saddam Hussein, virtually all were expelled from the country in a single week and told never to return.
---
So you can see why Egypt's border with Gaza is even more fortified and restricted than Israel's.
Egypt has literally salted the earth by pumping seawater into Rafah (Reuters), in order to destroy 1,900 tunnels used for smuggling weapons. Arable farmland was destroyed and their wells were poisoned, making them even more reliant on outside sources for food and water. Israel hasn't done anything like that - yet.
posted by xdvesper at 6:23 AM on October 29, 2023 [31 favorites]
I'll freely admit that it's easy for me to say Israel needs to pay that price to avoid genocide, because I'm not the one facing those rockets.
sotonohito, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so. Can you offer any?
Not trying to be contentious. I am thinking about examples of persistent, skirmish/"low-grade" conflicts that come to mind, especially around border issues. Such examples as come to mind are mostly historical, or situations where a persistent tit-for-tat is the only viable option for equally matched combatants. In the modern era, I could see rockets-for-rockets as a viable (if still bad) political alternative along very lightly settled borders, but "lightly settled" does not describe Gaza or adjacent areas.
In the end, lives are more important than land
I do not know what the answer is for the current conflict, but this sentiment (common on the blue, and in many places more broadly) is fundamentally at odds with the way wars have often been waged throughout history, for all that peace does occasionally break out, and people sometimes do decide to stop killing each other. I do not consider my perspective cynical, merely realistic.
Like many others here, I am trying to understand possibilities for routes forward outside of the wildly biased and misinformation-full news, "news," and free-for-all social media, advocated by people with deep knowledge of the conflict and its history. With respect and sympathy for commenters here (and my friends and colleagues who Jewish, Muslim, and/or who have ties to the region), I am unsure what calls for peace do in a situation where the combatants are so deeply opposed. At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that. I hope that there are some truly fierce peacemakers out there.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
sotonohito, I really appreciate your contributions to this thread. I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so. Can you offer any?
Not trying to be contentious. I am thinking about examples of persistent, skirmish/"low-grade" conflicts that come to mind, especially around border issues. Such examples as come to mind are mostly historical, or situations where a persistent tit-for-tat is the only viable option for equally matched combatants. In the modern era, I could see rockets-for-rockets as a viable (if still bad) political alternative along very lightly settled borders, but "lightly settled" does not describe Gaza or adjacent areas.
In the end, lives are more important than land
I do not know what the answer is for the current conflict, but this sentiment (common on the blue, and in many places more broadly) is fundamentally at odds with the way wars have often been waged throughout history, for all that peace does occasionally break out, and people sometimes do decide to stop killing each other. I do not consider my perspective cynical, merely realistic.
Like many others here, I am trying to understand possibilities for routes forward outside of the wildly biased and misinformation-full news, "news," and free-for-all social media, advocated by people with deep knowledge of the conflict and its history. With respect and sympathy for commenters here (and my friends and colleagues who Jewish, Muslim, and/or who have ties to the region), I am unsure what calls for peace do in a situation where the combatants are so deeply opposed. At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that. I hope that there are some truly fierce peacemakers out there.
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:17 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure, but I can't think of any nations with the power to fight back against ongoing conventional attacks without being utterly destroyed that would not do so.
For me, the issue is largely one of proportionality. "Fighting back" covers a lot of potential responses that are less disastrous for civilian populations than Israel's current campaign.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
For me, the issue is largely one of proportionality. "Fighting back" covers a lot of potential responses that are less disastrous for civilian populations than Israel's current campaign.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
At one time, I thought a two-state solution might be the answer, but I am no longer even sure of that.
It has to be. Not because it's a good solution or even the best solution, it's the least bad solution.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:38 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
It has to be. Not because it's a good solution or even the best solution, it's the least bad solution.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:38 AM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The problem of intermingled, indistinguishable civilians and combatants is a bad one. The most common just war-type moral answer ("avoid or stop killing people, because you will sooner or later kill civilians, intentionally or not") generally rests on the assumption that the combatant intermingled with civilians will give up eventually and stop attacking. Or at least, that's how I've usually seen it deployed. I don't know what a proportional response looks like in this situation, and I don't know the month-to-month or year-to-year details of the conflict well enough to know if there ever have been proportional responses, or what their outcomes have been.
(Because these threads can get heated, I want to clarify that I am not advocating for violence, or for the targeting of civilians, noncombatants, etc. I also do not conflate here Hamas and Palestinians broadly.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:59 AM on October 29, 2023
(Because these threads can get heated, I want to clarify that I am not advocating for violence, or for the targeting of civilians, noncombatants, etc. I also do not conflate here Hamas and Palestinians broadly.)
posted by cupcakeninja at 7:59 AM on October 29, 2023
The problem of intermingled, indistinguishable civilians and combatants is a bad one. The most common just war-type moral answer ("avoid or stop killing people, because you will sooner or later kill civilians, intentionally or not") generally rests on the assumption that the combatant intermingled with civilians will give up eventually and stop attacking. Or at least, that's how I've usually seen it deployed. I don't know what a proportional response looks like in this situation, and I don't know the month-to-month or year-to-year details of the conflict well enough to know if there ever have been proportional responses, or what their outcomes have been.
I've been thinking about this a lot, without finding any (to me) convincing answers. Hamas deliberately hides among/behind civilians for protection, in order to create the moral dilemma where attacking them means knowing it will cause civilian deaths, or allowing them to continue their own attacks from safety. No nation anywhere is going to be ok with having a terrorist organization literally on their border that is actively attacking civilian and military targets. I can't think of any developed nation that would tolerate this, or that wouldn't respond disproportionately to an Oct. 7 type of attack.
But, this is also a situation where the prime minister of Israel and his coalition appear to bear some direct responsibility for creating the dynamic that led to the attack. It's all messy and complicated. I certainly don't see the possibility of creating a different dynamic (one that moves however incrementally towards a long term peace) while he stays in power.
It's all horrible to watch and it makes me feel ill. Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
I've been thinking about this a lot, without finding any (to me) convincing answers. Hamas deliberately hides among/behind civilians for protection, in order to create the moral dilemma where attacking them means knowing it will cause civilian deaths, or allowing them to continue their own attacks from safety. No nation anywhere is going to be ok with having a terrorist organization literally on their border that is actively attacking civilian and military targets. I can't think of any developed nation that would tolerate this, or that wouldn't respond disproportionately to an Oct. 7 type of attack.
But, this is also a situation where the prime minister of Israel and his coalition appear to bear some direct responsibility for creating the dynamic that led to the attack. It's all messy and complicated. I certainly don't see the possibility of creating a different dynamic (one that moves however incrementally towards a long term peace) while he stays in power.
It's all horrible to watch and it makes me feel ill. Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Lord Peter Ricketts is a former diplomat and was
was the FCO Arab-Israel desk officer in 1982 at the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.:
The message is simple. Mil operations alone don’t achieve pol objectives. Destroying enemy infrastructure does not produce security. That requires a strategy for who governs the territory once the fighting stops and how to break the cycle by giving people hope for the future.
Does Israel / USA have a strategy?
Obliteration is not a strategy. Apart that is from increased Arms sales to the benefit of US corporations and thus Political contributions for the upcoming elections.
posted by adamvasco at 8:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
was the FCO Arab-Israel desk officer in 1982 at the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon.:
The message is simple. Mil operations alone don’t achieve pol objectives. Destroying enemy infrastructure does not produce security. That requires a strategy for who governs the territory once the fighting stops and how to break the cycle by giving people hope for the future.
Does Israel / USA have a strategy?
Obliteration is not a strategy. Apart that is from increased Arms sales to the benefit of US corporations and thus Political contributions for the upcoming elections.
posted by adamvasco at 8:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Dip Flash: I mean, even if they had to respond, I don't think anyone has convincingly argued that their response had to be this one. They're a massively more powerful state, and have the capability to be significantly more discriminate than they are now, not to mention that they've been developing the conditions for exactly this for decades.
People are "leaping" to blame Israel because they have already killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has, and have a long-term record of violating the human rights of Palestinians. I don't like how many commenters online are excusing Israeli war crimes with a "they started it" narrative that ignores decades of history and dehumanization. I don't like how many commenters online are demanding everyone start every criticism of Israel with "Of course, Hamas is worse" before we can call out the destruction of infrastructure, homes, and whole families by airstrikes. I don't like how many commenters are saying "Gaza isn't a prison, because tourists can go there", as if Palestinians weren't treated as second-class citizens, trapped in a city the cannot leave.
posted by sagc at 8:36 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
People are "leaping" to blame Israel because they have already killed thousands more civilians than Hamas has, and have a long-term record of violating the human rights of Palestinians. I don't like how many commenters online are excusing Israeli war crimes with a "they started it" narrative that ignores decades of history and dehumanization. I don't like how many commenters online are demanding everyone start every criticism of Israel with "Of course, Hamas is worse" before we can call out the destruction of infrastructure, homes, and whole families by airstrikes. I don't like how many commenters are saying "Gaza isn't a prison, because tourists can go there", as if Palestinians weren't treated as second-class citizens, trapped in a city the cannot leave.
posted by sagc at 8:36 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
Pet Rock, the "two state solution" has been dead for decades. The time to implement it was after the Oslo Accords. If it were possible for Israel to simply allow Palestinians to exist as neighbors, it would have done so then. But Israel is a settler ethnostate. It is constitutionally committed to racial purity, and it was founded on the mass killing and expulsion of indigenous people. As long as "liberals" are still repeating banalities about a "Jewish homeland" and "the right to defend itself," Israel has no reason to respect the continued existence of the people it has slaughtered.
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.
posted by jy4m at 8:50 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.
posted by jy4m at 8:50 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
Someone was kind enough to send me down a rabbit hole that led me to Airstrikes While You Wait (by David Schraub, who also wrote about how leftists who aren't Jews are rarely interrogated about their support-or-not for their own nations the way that leftist Jews are always interrogated about Israel, which I found to be an interesting perspective):
With the Israeli government locked in paralysis over how to resolve the current crisis, the airstrikes have all the appearance of a deadly holding pattern -- a "something" to do while the army waits for the politicians to figure out an actual plan. Taken that way, it's hard to justify the airstrikes -- and the massive devastation they've caused to Gaza's civilian population -- as justified.posted by clawsoon at 9:12 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The airstrikes are cast as necessary to a campaign of "destroying Hamas", and maybe if they actually would accomplish that end they could be warranted. But in reality, when you drill down to it, there's virtually no evidence presented that the airstrikes are at all effective at securing that goal. The airstrikes are not "destroying Hamas". Rather, it seems like Israel doesn't yet have a plan for how to "destroy Hamas" and is lobbing missiles into Gaza while it tries to figure it out.
The term "proportional" is often misused in international conflicts -- it's not a requirement that all military violence be meted out at a 1:1 ratio -- but here the actual legal meaning is illustrative: the question is whether the expected military benefit is proportionate to the anticipated civilian cost. There's been little evidence presented that these airstrikes actually have much in the way of expected military benefit vis-a-vis the objective of destroying Hamas, and so is hard to justify against the damage dealt to innocent civilians.
One name given to Netanyahu's overall failed strategy for relating to Palestinians was "managing the conflict". The term, like "mowing the lawn", was a self-conscious abdication of any effort to actually resolve the conflict; it accepted that the conflict would exist in perpetuity and tried to tamp down on the costs (to Israel) to acceptable levels...
And so again, the airstrikes really seem more than anything like a stalling tactic. They are not a route out of the crisis, they do not even move Israel materially in the direction of emerging from the crisis. Rather, they are a relatively costless (for Israel; for Palestine the costs are devastating) measure it can dole out to do something while it gropes for an actual way out of the crisis that has eluded it thus far.
Rather, it seems like Israel doesn't yet have a plan for how to "destroy Hamas" and is lobbing missiles into Gaza while it tries to figure it out.
i think they thought they had one and realized that, no, just going in there isn't going to work - tactically it would take months - operationally, they cannot be sure that hezbollah will not go all out to stop them and they are pretty certain they won't get anything better than a bloody draw against them
politically and strategically, it's a disaster - much of the world, especially the countries nearby, is going to turn against them - they do not have the power to eliminate their enemies short of extreme measures
the crimes of hamas was the first, but the lesser shock - the greater shock will be when they realize that short of extermination, they cannot eliminate hamas, hezbollah or any of the other forces against them - (i think that's starting to sink in now)
the middle east seems to be on its way to becoming a bunch of hostile warlord states with today's borders ignored and this could be the catalyst
posted by pyramid termite at 9:30 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
i think they thought they had one and realized that, no, just going in there isn't going to work - tactically it would take months - operationally, they cannot be sure that hezbollah will not go all out to stop them and they are pretty certain they won't get anything better than a bloody draw against them
politically and strategically, it's a disaster - much of the world, especially the countries nearby, is going to turn against them - they do not have the power to eliminate their enemies short of extreme measures
the crimes of hamas was the first, but the lesser shock - the greater shock will be when they realize that short of extermination, they cannot eliminate hamas, hezbollah or any of the other forces against them - (i think that's starting to sink in now)
the middle east seems to be on its way to becoming a bunch of hostile warlord states with today's borders ignored and this could be the catalyst
posted by pyramid termite at 9:30 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel.
Even easier: let all Palestinians be citizens of full Israel. There’s 2 million already, up that number a couple more million, and see how they vote.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:31 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Even easier: let all Palestinians be citizens of full Israel. There’s 2 million already, up that number a couple more million, and see how they vote.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:31 AM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel, and the formation of a single multiethnic state in which Palestinians are full and equal citizens, and have political representation, economic stability, and a full right of return. The only other solution is purging all Palestinians. Everything Israel has done has been to prevent one of these solutions and achieve the other.I don't agree with you in that the dissolution of Israel would be the best solution. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be the most just solution for the people who have long been denied their land and seen their citizenship status within their traditional lands diminished. The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century. A bunch of ethnic groups all forced to live together with long standing and still hot to simmering ethnic and sectarian tensions? You could have the British and French draw country lines with a ruler and a pen and get better results in terms of civil strife.
I'm not saying two state is a good solution. Two state is a bad solution. But I think all the others are even worse.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 9:37 AM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
It is constitutionally committed to racial purity
Ok, I jumped into this new thread to make a different contribution, but just want to first briefly address this recent factually incorrect statement, which is a bit troubling when paired with the phrase "banalities about a 'Jewish homeland.'" Israel is committed to being a safe-haven for Jewish people - this isn't racial - as another user helpfully explained in the last thread, "31.8% of Israelis are estimated to be Ashkenazi, although this includes some groups who identify as Sephardi. 44.9% are Mizrahi, which roughly means they come from east of Israel." Worth noting that a good chunk of the Ashkenazis are Russian, who fled persecution in USSR. There is also a much smaller population of Ethiopian Jews. They also face a lot of racism in the country, so one needs to be careful with citing this example as a reason to applaud Israel - the point is just that Israel has served a purpose of providing safe haven to Jews facing violence. You can be a sharp critic of Israel, particularly recent Israeli actions - if you check the first thread, you'll see ample evidence that I am quite critical - but claiming Israel is "committed to racial purity" and that the desire/value of a "Jewish homeland" is banal is not helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 9:48 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
Ok, I jumped into this new thread to make a different contribution, but just want to first briefly address this recent factually incorrect statement, which is a bit troubling when paired with the phrase "banalities about a 'Jewish homeland.'" Israel is committed to being a safe-haven for Jewish people - this isn't racial - as another user helpfully explained in the last thread, "31.8% of Israelis are estimated to be Ashkenazi, although this includes some groups who identify as Sephardi. 44.9% are Mizrahi, which roughly means they come from east of Israel." Worth noting that a good chunk of the Ashkenazis are Russian, who fled persecution in USSR. There is also a much smaller population of Ethiopian Jews. They also face a lot of racism in the country, so one needs to be careful with citing this example as a reason to applaud Israel - the point is just that Israel has served a purpose of providing safe haven to Jews facing violence. You can be a sharp critic of Israel, particularly recent Israeli actions - if you check the first thread, you'll see ample evidence that I am quite critical - but claiming Israel is "committed to racial purity" and that the desire/value of a "Jewish homeland" is banal is not helpful.
posted by coffeecat at 9:48 AM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
The best solution to this conflict is the dissolution of Israel
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Statements like the above really add meat to the argument that for many Israelis and other Jews, it remains an existential problem. I touched base with a former coworker who is an orthodox Jew, and that's what he was stressing. How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
Can't see this attitude being very useful, either.
Israel holds most of the cards. They have the power and the control, with the backing and approval of major world powers, if not the UN. With great power comes great responsibility....
I was shocked and appalled by the savage terrorist attack on Israel. I am saddened but not surprised by the brutal response. I'm pretty sure it's the reaction that Hamas wanted. Yes i wish for a ceasefire and other efforts to spare innocents. I don't yet see any light at the end of this particular tunnel.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:39 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Statements like the above really add meat to the argument that for many Israelis and other Jews, it remains an existential problem. I touched base with a former coworker who is an orthodox Jew, and that's what he was stressing. How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Personally, I didn't like how so many commenters online and on the streets (as well as governments in that region) moved instantly to blaming Israel, making at most the merest of nods towards mourning and the mildest of condemnations of Hamas, before leapfrogging straight past to harsh critiques of Israel. I'm not pointing at anyone here, but there is a noticeable amount of anti-semitism involved that is gross to see.
Can't see this attitude being very useful, either.
Israel holds most of the cards. They have the power and the control, with the backing and approval of major world powers, if not the UN. With great power comes great responsibility....
I was shocked and appalled by the savage terrorist attack on Israel. I am saddened but not surprised by the brutal response. I'm pretty sure it's the reaction that Hamas wanted. Yes i wish for a ceasefire and other efforts to spare innocents. I don't yet see any light at the end of this particular tunnel.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:39 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
EmpirePodcast. William Dalrymple & Anita Anand joined by Tom Segev.
Origins of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.
The Balfour Declaration was published on the 9th November 1917. It stated the intent of the British government to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 10:43 AM on October 29, 2023
Origins of the Israel-Palestine Conflict.
The Balfour Declaration was published on the 9th November 1917. It stated the intent of the British government to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 10:43 AM on October 29, 2023
Israel is committed neither to racial purity nor ethnic purity nor religious purity. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel. I bring them up not to defend Israel as a multicultural paradise — Arab Israelis face plenty of discrimination, unequal services, and even violence from the religious right — but because I hate to see them erased. They are some of the strongest voices for peace. On a personal level, Arab Israelis have been some of the loveliest, friendliest, and most clear-sighted people I have had the good fortune to meet. They were also victims of the indiscriminate violence of October 7th. They hold a wide range of views regarding the conflict and what sort of solution they prefer (one-state vs. two-state vs. some other alternative). Arab Israelis exist and they matter and they are valuable and they deserve recognition and to have a say in their security and their future. To treat Israel as if it is already a monolithic ethnostate is to cede ground to the right-wingers who would like it to be so. That is not the mainstream view; most Jewish Israelis see Arab Israelis as fellow citizens and neighbors and friends. Part of the struggle against Netanyahu and his ilk in the political crisis of the past five years is a struggle to maintain Israel as a multicultural liberal democracy.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on October 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on October 29, 2023 [35 favorites]
I just read this, also from Schraub:
Sadly, however, it keeps feeling like the Sri Lankan civil war is probably a better parallel for the direction that the Israel-Palestine conflict has gone, and that was ended in a way that I think only the most hardline Israeli extremists would appreciate.
posted by clawsoon at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Imagine that Israel tomorrow announced a suite of policy alterations towards the Gaza Strip that are the dream of all those signing cease-fire petitions: an end to the siege, a release of prisoners, a commitment to reconstruction, the works. What would be the result? It would be to suggest that, as terrible as Hamas' actions were, they were ultimately what shocked the Israeli government out of its torpor and forced it to the negotiating table... Israel at some level needs to devastate Hamas because the alternative is that Hamas learns that operations like these are winning strategies that should be repeated as frequently as possible....and it got me thinking about the Oka Crisis here in Canada. It's a different situation for many, many reasons, but one of the things that came out of it was precisely that the Mohawk warriors did shock the Canadian government "out of its torpor". A bunch of heavily armed Indigenous people are a major reason that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission happened and that Indigenous land claims are being taken much more seriously. There is still a looooooooong way to go, but it started a process. Meeting the needs and recognizing the rights of Gaza, even if violence was the trigger, is not some ridiculous idea that can only lead to the destruction of Israel.
Sadly, however, it keeps feeling like the Sri Lankan civil war is probably a better parallel for the direction that the Israel-Palestine conflict has gone, and that was ended in a way that I think only the most hardline Israeli extremists would appreciate.
posted by clawsoon at 10:59 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
Probably not by indiscriminately killing thousands of civilians, as the IDF is currently doing, since that will only bolster support for those movements, as Netanyahu and his allies know.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:08 AM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Probably not by indiscriminately killing thousands of civilians, as the IDF is currently doing, since that will only bolster support for those movements, as Netanyahu and his allies know.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:08 AM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
the alternative is that Hamas learns that
It just struck me how much operant conditioning language I've read over the years in Israeli discussion of how Palestinian actions must be responded to. "If we cause them pain, they will learn one thing; if we don't cause them pain, the will learn a different thing." The people on the other side aren't treated as people, but as lab rats to be forced through the maze in the correct direction. They are treated as if an electric shock is the only language they can understand.
Lots of people talk like this about lots of situations, of course, it's not in any way limited to Israel-Palestine. Whenever this language is used, though, it feels like there's an element of dehumanization entering the conversation.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
It just struck me how much operant conditioning language I've read over the years in Israeli discussion of how Palestinian actions must be responded to. "If we cause them pain, they will learn one thing; if we don't cause them pain, the will learn a different thing." The people on the other side aren't treated as people, but as lab rats to be forced through the maze in the correct direction. They are treated as if an electric shock is the only language they can understand.
Lots of people talk like this about lots of situations, of course, it's not in any way limited to Israel-Palestine. Whenever this language is used, though, it feels like there's an element of dehumanization entering the conversation.
posted by clawsoon at 11:20 AM on October 29, 2023 [20 favorites]
Jewish migration to the region predated the British mandate and the Balfour declaration. There was also a
community of at least 25,000 Jews out of a population of between 300,000-400,000 who were present in the region before Jewish migration began to rise in the 1870s. Initially this migration was actively encouraged by the Ottomans who wanted to address a perceived labor shortage.
posted by interogative mood at 11:22 AM on October 29, 2023
community of at least 25,000 Jews out of a population of between 300,000-400,000 who were present in the region before Jewish migration began to rise in the 1870s. Initially this migration was actively encouraged by the Ottomans who wanted to address a perceived labor shortage.
posted by interogative mood at 11:22 AM on October 29, 2023
Israel is committed neither to racial purity nor ethnic purity nor religious purity. There are over 2 million Arab citizens in Israel.
That's kind of the fundamental problem though. Israel may not be committed to purity, but they are committed to maintaining a state with a strong majority of Jewish people. The reality is if the people who live within Israel and the occupied territories all had equal rights, you would see an Arab majority quite soon due to the difference in birth rate. Likely almost immediately if you allowed Palestinians currently outside to return.
In that context, it becomes more clear that the argument is essentially that Israel can't allow Palestinians to have those kinds of rights, because they might do to Jewish Israelis what they themselves are currently doing to Palestinians.
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
That's kind of the fundamental problem though. Israel may not be committed to purity, but they are committed to maintaining a state with a strong majority of Jewish people. The reality is if the people who live within Israel and the occupied territories all had equal rights, you would see an Arab majority quite soon due to the difference in birth rate. Likely almost immediately if you allowed Palestinians currently outside to return.
In that context, it becomes more clear that the argument is essentially that Israel can't allow Palestinians to have those kinds of rights, because they might do to Jewish Israelis what they themselves are currently doing to Palestinians.
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 29, 2023 [19 favorites]
FTFY
But... then what? What is the correct way for Israel to respond to this 9/11-sized moment? The US leaned into vengeance after theirs. Lessons not learned.
I'm certain Hamas expected and wants a savage response; it ensures the perpetuation of their movement. It seems politically useful for Netanyahu, too, which is a horrible thing to even think.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:28 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The days of seeing these threads descend into circular conversations of largely ignorant and uneducated statements are certainly coming to a middle. If you're going to talk about the situation, would it be possible to at least do a little background reading first? Or maybe can we go back to link sharing?
posted by fight or flight at 11:29 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 11:29 AM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ok, what I actually wanted to reflect on: immediately after Oct 7 and still, the analogy of 9/11 has been common, which makes sense - I do think that analogy has been helpful to think with. But as I have been obsessively consuming the news these past weeks, something that's been in the back of my mind are the ways that this is rather different than 9/11.
In the previous thread and elsewhere, I've seen the usual assessments of how bad the US media is, and while I'm sympathetic to those sentiments, I've been struck at how relatively nuanced the US media landscape has been these last few weeks, particularly compared to 9/11. Admittedly, I haven't had the motivation to deep dive post-9/11 media, but I recall as a high-school student that this is when I got into Democracy Now and Al Jazeera - they seemed like the only sane source of news at the time. And as will be news to nobody who remembers that time, Americans overwhelmingly supported war, even a protracted one - 77% said they "supported military action, including the use of ground troops, even if it meant thousands of US causalities" according to a Pew Poll.
And yeah, in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, the mainstream message was "stand with Israel." But it didn't take long for that to shift. It was well-argued in the last thread that social media has played a role here, and I agree. But I'd add that more traditional media has also played a role. I have no doubt a lot of the credit goes to efforts to diversity newsrooms in the US to include Arab Americans that eventually happened post-9/11. The bylines and perspectives being included in the NYTimes and NPR, which are by no means lefty platforms, have changed dramatically over the last couple of decades. I have been particularly appreciating the reporting by Daniel Estrin (not Arab, but fluent in Arabic along with Hebrew, and from his reporting it's clear he has deep ties to Palestinians) and Leila Fadel of NPR lately. NPR's On the Media has also had some good episodes lately.
And it's not just that - currently the Opinion column on front page of the NYTimes includes centrist Nicholas Kristof starting out his column saying "let me share why I believe we’ll some day look back at this moment and see a profound moral and policy failure" and later lamenting "I can’t help feeling that while we say that all lives have equal value, President Biden has likewise greatly prioritized Israeli children over Gazan children." The article below that is titled "I'm a Pediatrician in Gaza. Please Save Us from This Horror."
Going back a bit, Tom-rah-rah-Iraq-War-Friedman has written a number of critical columns of Israel that have been more nuanced than I bet most Mefites would assume. His interview with other NYTimes opinion columnists is worth listening to, regardless of what you might think of him (I'll confess I held off until recently, so I get why one would be hesitant). He says, among other things, "President Biden said in Israel that he’s going to offer an unprecedented financial aid package to Israel. And I’ll support that package under one condition: that Israel agrees that it will not build a single more settlement anywhere beyond the settlement blocks. Not one brick, not one nail, not one ounce of cement." Like many here, I don't want any tax dollars supplying Israel with weapons period, so I'm not applauding Friedman here or anything - merely pointing out that US media criticism of Israel is broad right now, and includes centrists. As for other NYTimes opinion columnists, Michelle Goldberg has written thoughtfully about how speech in support of Palestine is being silenced, and pleaded nearly two weeks ago "Nevertheless, as atrocities are piled on atrocities, I hope Jews will attend to what is being threatened in our name. And all Americans should pay attention, given how much our country underwrites Israel’s military." Again, she's a Democrat but not a lefty.
Meanwhile, here is a clip that aired two days ago on MSNBC (FYI, Twitter link - I don't actually watch cable news) - Chris Hayes, who I gather is somewhere between Bernie and Biden, politically speaking (I could be wrong - I only am aware of him when people post clips on social media), makes a very strong case for ceasefire - and if what I just looked up is correct, his time-slot beats out the competitors on CNN and Fox.
And there are signs beyond protests that suggest Biden is way out of line with his own party. A Data for Progress survey published Oct 20 showed that 80% (!!!) of Democrats agreed that the US should push for a ceasefire. Even 56% of Republican voters agreed with this. Even Patrick Gaspard, the current president for the very centrist Center for American Progress think tank Tweeted out a couple of days ago: "People keep telling me that the situation in Gaza is “complicated”. There’s nothing complicated about being able to say killing innocent people is wrong and needs to stop. We said it when it was Hamas. We can say it now that it’s Israel. This is wrong. This needs to stop."
I've shared this not to suggest that I'm terribly hopeful short term (I'm pretty sure my Congresswoman's staffer who I keep talking to is equally tired of me), but I am at least a smidgeon hopeful that something is shifting within this country that will have a material impact in the long-term, if not the medium-term.
posted by coffeecat at 11:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
In the previous thread and elsewhere, I've seen the usual assessments of how bad the US media is, and while I'm sympathetic to those sentiments, I've been struck at how relatively nuanced the US media landscape has been these last few weeks, particularly compared to 9/11. Admittedly, I haven't had the motivation to deep dive post-9/11 media, but I recall as a high-school student that this is when I got into Democracy Now and Al Jazeera - they seemed like the only sane source of news at the time. And as will be news to nobody who remembers that time, Americans overwhelmingly supported war, even a protracted one - 77% said they "supported military action, including the use of ground troops, even if it meant thousands of US causalities" according to a Pew Poll.
And yeah, in the immediate aftermath of Oct 7, the mainstream message was "stand with Israel." But it didn't take long for that to shift. It was well-argued in the last thread that social media has played a role here, and I agree. But I'd add that more traditional media has also played a role. I have no doubt a lot of the credit goes to efforts to diversity newsrooms in the US to include Arab Americans that eventually happened post-9/11. The bylines and perspectives being included in the NYTimes and NPR, which are by no means lefty platforms, have changed dramatically over the last couple of decades. I have been particularly appreciating the reporting by Daniel Estrin (not Arab, but fluent in Arabic along with Hebrew, and from his reporting it's clear he has deep ties to Palestinians) and Leila Fadel of NPR lately. NPR's On the Media has also had some good episodes lately.
And it's not just that - currently the Opinion column on front page of the NYTimes includes centrist Nicholas Kristof starting out his column saying "let me share why I believe we’ll some day look back at this moment and see a profound moral and policy failure" and later lamenting "I can’t help feeling that while we say that all lives have equal value, President Biden has likewise greatly prioritized Israeli children over Gazan children." The article below that is titled "I'm a Pediatrician in Gaza. Please Save Us from This Horror."
Going back a bit, Tom-rah-rah-Iraq-War-Friedman has written a number of critical columns of Israel that have been more nuanced than I bet most Mefites would assume. His interview with other NYTimes opinion columnists is worth listening to, regardless of what you might think of him (I'll confess I held off until recently, so I get why one would be hesitant). He says, among other things, "President Biden said in Israel that he’s going to offer an unprecedented financial aid package to Israel. And I’ll support that package under one condition: that Israel agrees that it will not build a single more settlement anywhere beyond the settlement blocks. Not one brick, not one nail, not one ounce of cement." Like many here, I don't want any tax dollars supplying Israel with weapons period, so I'm not applauding Friedman here or anything - merely pointing out that US media criticism of Israel is broad right now, and includes centrists. As for other NYTimes opinion columnists, Michelle Goldberg has written thoughtfully about how speech in support of Palestine is being silenced, and pleaded nearly two weeks ago "Nevertheless, as atrocities are piled on atrocities, I hope Jews will attend to what is being threatened in our name. And all Americans should pay attention, given how much our country underwrites Israel’s military." Again, she's a Democrat but not a lefty.
Meanwhile, here is a clip that aired two days ago on MSNBC (FYI, Twitter link - I don't actually watch cable news) - Chris Hayes, who I gather is somewhere between Bernie and Biden, politically speaking (I could be wrong - I only am aware of him when people post clips on social media), makes a very strong case for ceasefire - and if what I just looked up is correct, his time-slot beats out the competitors on CNN and Fox.
And there are signs beyond protests that suggest Biden is way out of line with his own party. A Data for Progress survey published Oct 20 showed that 80% (!!!) of Democrats agreed that the US should push for a ceasefire. Even 56% of Republican voters agreed with this. Even Patrick Gaspard, the current president for the very centrist Center for American Progress think tank Tweeted out a couple of days ago: "People keep telling me that the situation in Gaza is “complicated”. There’s nothing complicated about being able to say killing innocent people is wrong and needs to stop. We said it when it was Hamas. We can say it now that it’s Israel. This is wrong. This needs to stop."
I've shared this not to suggest that I'm terribly hopeful short term (I'm pretty sure my Congresswoman's staffer who I keep talking to is equally tired of me), but I am at least a smidgeon hopeful that something is shifting within this country that will have a material impact in the long-term, if not the medium-term.
posted by coffeecat at 11:33 AM on October 29, 2023 [21 favorites]
Uh, should every modern nation with a troubling colonial/genocidal origin be forced into a do-over as well? Asking for a friend. The historical arguments for the existence of the state of Israel are better than most. Not that this makes the Nakba ok.
Arguments are irrelevant. I think what people are upset about is Israel’s continued horrific treatment of Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Arguments are irrelevant. I think what people are upset about is Israel’s continued horrific treatment of Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:41 AM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me too. Suggest a viable solution.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:42 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Artful Codger at 11:42 AM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do in fact believe in landback. I believe the indigenous peoples existing within and despite colonized territory should have a right to return to control of their land, national self determination, and reparations, and I believe that includes the end of the United States as such. In Palestine this state of affairs is much more clear, because the colonizer government is still in the height of its extermination phase, and is not doing a very good job of hiding their intentions. The Nation-State Bill, for example, made it abundantly clear that my understanding of Israel and Israel's understanding of Israel are not too far off. Our greatest point of difference is that I do not believe that Israel's claims that it represents and protects the Jewish people is legitimate or borne out by the facts.
As for providing a safe haven for Jews, I support this aim, and I think it is the responsibility of all nations. Zionism, the belief that Jews can only be safe by aligning with western imperialism and exterminating Arabs, is nonsense, as recent events have shown. You can't reasonably claim that you mean to keep anyone safe while drafting them into a race war.
posted by jy4m at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
As for providing a safe haven for Jews, I support this aim, and I think it is the responsibility of all nations. Zionism, the belief that Jews can only be safe by aligning with western imperialism and exterminating Arabs, is nonsense, as recent events have shown. You can't reasonably claim that you mean to keep anyone safe while drafting them into a race war.
posted by jy4m at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2023 [13 favorites]
Me too. Suggest a viable solution.
It's doubtful that a Nobel Peace Prize will be won in this thread, but I guess we can keep trying. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's doubtful that a Nobel Peace Prize will be won in this thread, but I guess we can keep trying. :-)
posted by clawsoon at 11:44 AM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I believe that includes the end of the United States as such
I don't agree with either your assessment of the current situation, your interpretation of history, or your proposed solutions, but I do appreciate your consistency.
posted by gwint at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't agree with either your assessment of the current situation, your interpretation of history, or your proposed solutions, but I do appreciate your consistency.
posted by gwint at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is almost no true private ownership of land in Israel currently, as has been stated above. Israel/Palestine/Canaan has the highest density of religious and historical significance per square foot of any land on earth. A comprehensive walking tour of Israel/Palestine could probably cover ten square feet per hour. Under the current state of affairs, most of the holy sites in Israel/Palestine are inaccessible to some group of people or other who consider them religiously significant.
My personal, unironically preferred solution is that nobody should live there. The whole land should be declared a World Heritage Site and given over to archaeologists and historians, with holy sites preserved and open to people of all faiths who wish to visit. The Nobel Peace Prize Committee unfortunately continues to ignore my letters on the subject.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
My personal, unironically preferred solution is that nobody should live there. The whole land should be declared a World Heritage Site and given over to archaeologists and historians, with holy sites preserved and open to people of all faiths who wish to visit. The Nobel Peace Prize Committee unfortunately continues to ignore my letters on the subject.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Atlantic has an article up on what the author terms
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
posted by interogative mood at 12:32 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
posted by interogative mood at 12:32 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Multiple comments deleted. Deleted a major derail with way too much arguing with other users, and lots of speculation not based in fact. Remember to comment in good faith here, and keep things on track and focused on what this FPP was intended for.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 12:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
I think many of us have considered this objection (Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land and therefore can't be colonizers) and rejected it because the claim that, for example, European Jews are indigenous to the area is very clearly incredibly weak compared to the claim the Palestinians have, to put it generously.
posted by ssg at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think many of us have considered this objection (Jews are indigenous in the Holy Land and therefore can't be colonizers) and rejected it because the claim that, for example, European Jews are indigenous to the area is very clearly incredibly weak compared to the claim the Palestinians have, to put it generously.
posted by ssg at 1:11 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
But even granting that point, European Jews are not a majority of the population of Israel are they?
posted by Justinian at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
How should you respond to movements and governments who have pledged to literally wipe you off of the map?
I think the more relevant question is not how you should respond, but rather how extant governments and populations will respond. And the answer is that they'd respond exactly like Israel is doing if not worse. I am confident that if America were in a similar situation it would respond by unrestrained attacks leading to total eradication of any town rockets were launched from and FOX et al would turn the word "genocide" into a badge of honor. Various Republican House members would wear literal badges that say "PRO-GENOCIDE".
So yeah, I'm critical of Israel but I don't think the government there is responding with any greater violence than any other government and less than many/most would use. It doesn't make what Israel is doing right, or the thing they should be doing, but everyone else would do the same or worse.
But we're still left with the question of what happens next. I don't know what the end is going to be, and I suspect Netanyahu doesn't know either.
When you game it out, there are only a few likely outcomes:
1 - At some point short of a full invasion of Gaza, Israel decides it's done enough and pulls back enacting if not a cease fire at least an end to the active invasion. Things return to the prior status quo only with the Palestinian people even poorer, filled with justifiable hatred for Israel, and Hamas strutting around saying they won. A bad out come for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, a good outcome for Hamas.
2 - Israel continues to push into Gaza and does not stop. Most Palestinians are evicted, possibly broken up and put into small isolated pockets in the West Bank, possibly deported to a refugee camp if Israel can manage it. Gaza becomes part of Israel, Hamas loses its Israeli base of operations, and Israel stops being attacked by random rockets. A good outcome for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, and a bad outcome for Hamas.
3 - Israel continues the policy of limited invasion, lots of bombs and missiles, and maximal blockade. Eventually most Palestinians who cannot flee Gaza die from thirst or starvation. Hamas holds on but is itself eventually starved out, and Israel claims ownership of the graveyard. Good for Israel, terrible for the Palestinians, bad for Hamas.
I don't really see any other major paths this can take.
I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce. Ultimately Hamas views the people of Gaza as expendable resources and it will spend the lives of those people in pursuit of its goal.
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me. Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair. I don't think Netanyahu is going to take option 1.
posted by sotonohito at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
I think the more relevant question is not how you should respond, but rather how extant governments and populations will respond. And the answer is that they'd respond exactly like Israel is doing if not worse. I am confident that if America were in a similar situation it would respond by unrestrained attacks leading to total eradication of any town rockets were launched from and FOX et al would turn the word "genocide" into a badge of honor. Various Republican House members would wear literal badges that say "PRO-GENOCIDE".
So yeah, I'm critical of Israel but I don't think the government there is responding with any greater violence than any other government and less than many/most would use. It doesn't make what Israel is doing right, or the thing they should be doing, but everyone else would do the same or worse.
But we're still left with the question of what happens next. I don't know what the end is going to be, and I suspect Netanyahu doesn't know either.
When you game it out, there are only a few likely outcomes:
1 - At some point short of a full invasion of Gaza, Israel decides it's done enough and pulls back enacting if not a cease fire at least an end to the active invasion. Things return to the prior status quo only with the Palestinian people even poorer, filled with justifiable hatred for Israel, and Hamas strutting around saying they won. A bad out come for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, a good outcome for Hamas.
2 - Israel continues to push into Gaza and does not stop. Most Palestinians are evicted, possibly broken up and put into small isolated pockets in the West Bank, possibly deported to a refugee camp if Israel can manage it. Gaza becomes part of Israel, Hamas loses its Israeli base of operations, and Israel stops being attacked by random rockets. A good outcome for Israel, a bad outcome for Palestinians, and a bad outcome for Hamas.
3 - Israel continues the policy of limited invasion, lots of bombs and missiles, and maximal blockade. Eventually most Palestinians who cannot flee Gaza die from thirst or starvation. Hamas holds on but is itself eventually starved out, and Israel claims ownership of the graveyard. Good for Israel, terrible for the Palestinians, bad for Hamas.
I don't really see any other major paths this can take.
I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce. Ultimately Hamas views the people of Gaza as expendable resources and it will spend the lives of those people in pursuit of its goal.
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me. Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair. I don't think Netanyahu is going to take option 1.
posted by sotonohito at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
interogative mood: The Atlantic has an article up on what the author terms The Decolonization Narrative that seems to summarize the pushback and objections you should consider when framing the conflict in terms of a colonization and the indigenous rights.
The author makes useful points, but I got stuck on this one:
Like Israel, my country of Canada is a liberal democracy founded by people from Europe that has been a refuge and place of opportunity for people from all over the world, with education, social, healthcare and legal systems that aren't perfect but are miles better than the alternatives offered by communism, fascism, military dictatorship and the rest. It's a great place to live!
...with one giant asterisk that applies to one group of people who haven't benefited from those education, social, healthcare and legal systems but have instead suffered from them, who have been pushed into ever-smaller areas, who have seen their rights denied and their food sources destroyed when it suited us colonizers.
As I said in the previous discussion, in many ways - most ways - my country of Canada has been worse than Israel. What Canada has done is much closer to any definition of genocide than what Israel has done.
But there are two perspectives on opposite extremes that I'm never asked to consider when it comes to Canada but am regularly asked to consider when it comes to Israel:
- Canada shouldn't exist.
- We should take into account the reasons for the horrible things Canada has done.
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
The author makes useful points, but I got stuck on this one:
According to the decolonizers, Israel is and always has been an illegitimate freak-state because it was fostered by the British empire and because some of its founders were European-born Jews.I don't see Israel as a freak settler-colonial state, I see it as a perfectly normal settler-colonial state. I live in a settler-colonial state; probably most people on Metafilter do.
Like Israel, my country of Canada is a liberal democracy founded by people from Europe that has been a refuge and place of opportunity for people from all over the world, with education, social, healthcare and legal systems that aren't perfect but are miles better than the alternatives offered by communism, fascism, military dictatorship and the rest. It's a great place to live!
...with one giant asterisk that applies to one group of people who haven't benefited from those education, social, healthcare and legal systems but have instead suffered from them, who have been pushed into ever-smaller areas, who have seen their rights denied and their food sources destroyed when it suited us colonizers.
As I said in the previous discussion, in many ways - most ways - my country of Canada has been worse than Israel. What Canada has done is much closer to any definition of genocide than what Israel has done.
But there are two perspectives on opposite extremes that I'm never asked to consider when it comes to Canada but am regularly asked to consider when it comes to Israel:
- Canada shouldn't exist.
- We should take into account the reasons for the horrible things Canada has done.
posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
even granting that point, European Jews are not a majority of the population of Israel are they?
A majority of the Jewish population of Israel has recent origins somewhere other than the territory which is currently Israel; most recent estimates from 2019 are that 31.8% of the Jewish population of Israel are "Ashkenazi" and 12.4% are "Soviet" (originating from the former USSR and thus likely also Ashkenazi although counted separately).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
A majority of the Jewish population of Israel has recent origins somewhere other than the territory which is currently Israel; most recent estimates from 2019 are that 31.8% of the Jewish population of Israel are "Ashkenazi" and 12.4% are "Soviet" (originating from the former USSR and thus likely also Ashkenazi although counted separately).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
And most of the remainder are from North Africa, Ethiopia, Iraq, Iran and so on, as the Jewish population of Palestine pre-Zionism was quite small.
posted by ssg at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by ssg at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023
It gets more complicated because people born in Israel /Palestine might have recent ancestors of different recent geographic origins. This holds for both Arabs and Jews. The late Ottoman and British mandate era saw a lot of people moving around. Palestine wasn’t a distinct region with a fixed border until the Palestine Mandate. It was a geographic region like we might say “Mid Atlantic” in the US. That isn’t to say there isn’t a modern Palestinian identity and culture with roots going back for a long time and then boosted by recent shared historical experiences.
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you'd prefer, this interview with Rashid Khalidi (current editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies and professor at Columbia), also makes a case against framing this conflict as colonial settlers vs. indigenous:
What do you make of the conversation within the American left — the elected left, the activist left, the left media? Is there history the left is missing or leaving out?
Well, that’s a hard question for me to answer because all I am directly in contact with are student activists. I think that young people are in the process of educating themselves, and they’re not yet fully educated, or politically mature in their views.
For example, an argument that I see among some student activists is that all Israelis are settlers, and therefore there are no civilians. You can’t say that if you have any respect for international humanitarian law. Israel’s being the result of a settler colonial process does not mean that every Israeli grandmother and every Israeli baby is a settler and therefore not a civilian. Technically, in some sense, we Americans are all settlers, but that does not mean that a Native American liberation movement would be justified in killing white American settler babies or white American settler grandmothers. Yes, people in the settlements in the Occupied Territories who are armed have to be seen as combatants. The ones who are unarmed are not combatants. That’s an example of the kind of distinction people have to develop.
It's a really worthwhile interview in full, and he's certainly not denying the settler-colonial origins of Israel - but I agree with those saying that the language used by some in this thread and the previous thread is unhelpful.
posted by coffeecat at 1:31 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
What do you make of the conversation within the American left — the elected left, the activist left, the left media? Is there history the left is missing or leaving out?
Well, that’s a hard question for me to answer because all I am directly in contact with are student activists. I think that young people are in the process of educating themselves, and they’re not yet fully educated, or politically mature in their views.
For example, an argument that I see among some student activists is that all Israelis are settlers, and therefore there are no civilians. You can’t say that if you have any respect for international humanitarian law. Israel’s being the result of a settler colonial process does not mean that every Israeli grandmother and every Israeli baby is a settler and therefore not a civilian. Technically, in some sense, we Americans are all settlers, but that does not mean that a Native American liberation movement would be justified in killing white American settler babies or white American settler grandmothers. Yes, people in the settlements in the Occupied Territories who are armed have to be seen as combatants. The ones who are unarmed are not combatants. That’s an example of the kind of distinction people have to develop.
It's a really worthwhile interview in full, and he's certainly not denying the settler-colonial origins of Israel - but I agree with those saying that the language used by some in this thread and the previous thread is unhelpful.
posted by coffeecat at 1:31 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
The population of the region was about 300,000 in 1850. About 10% of that population was Jewish in 1850.
posted by interogative mood at 1:35 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 1:35 PM on October 29, 2023
If you'd prefer, this interview with Rashid Khalidi (current editor of the Journal of Palestine Studies and professor at Columbia), also makes a case against framing this conflict as colonial settlers vs. indigenous:
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
posted by ssg at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
posted by ssg at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
ssg Comrade, all that might have been relevant back in 1946. Today? Not so much. I happen to agree that Israel was founded in a colonial manner, but it doesn't matter except in a rather academic moral history sort of way.
Israel exists. And most, 75%, of the people living there to day were born there.
While truth matters, and history is important, I'd argue that here and now the issue of Israel's founding is more or less irrelevant, and from a practical standpoint it has no bearing whatsoever on what any of the parties involved are going to do. The Jewish population of Israel isn't going to wake up tomorrow and say "huh, we were founded by colonizers, welp guess I'd better pack my bags and see if I can get citizenship somewhere else since it's clearly wrong for me to be here!"
So what's your point?
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel exists. And most, 75%, of the people living there to day were born there.
While truth matters, and history is important, I'd argue that here and now the issue of Israel's founding is more or less irrelevant, and from a practical standpoint it has no bearing whatsoever on what any of the parties involved are going to do. The Jewish population of Israel isn't going to wake up tomorrow and say "huh, we were founded by colonizers, welp guess I'd better pack my bags and see if I can get citizenship somewhere else since it's clearly wrong for me to be here!"
So what's your point?
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
If anyone sees a fourth option, PLEASE tell me.
Israel will establish safe zones in Gaza following their initial invasion. They will begin to direct Palestinians to those areas as they push further into Gaza. They will adopt a standard counter insurgency plan of clear and hold. There will be filtration operations (a horrible thing) to screen refugees to try to identify potential Hamas members with dentition centers established for those individuals. Following this Israel will try to establish some kind of local Palestinian government to govern the place and negotiate a “peace deal”. This government will get a ton of aid in order to overcome the fact that it will be seen as illegitimate in the eyes of much of the population. It is the model the Russians used in Chechnya. Lots of reconstruction and lots of money handed out to a local government that will maintain order through show projects and lots of corruption.
posted by interogative mood at 1:43 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel will establish safe zones in Gaza following their initial invasion. They will begin to direct Palestinians to those areas as they push further into Gaza. They will adopt a standard counter insurgency plan of clear and hold. There will be filtration operations (a horrible thing) to screen refugees to try to identify potential Hamas members with dentition centers established for those individuals. Following this Israel will try to establish some kind of local Palestinian government to govern the place and negotiate a “peace deal”. This government will get a ton of aid in order to overcome the fact that it will be seen as illegitimate in the eyes of much of the population. It is the model the Russians used in Chechnya. Lots of reconstruction and lots of money handed out to a local government that will maintain order through show projects and lots of corruption.
posted by interogative mood at 1:43 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Comrade, all that might have been relevant back in 1946. Today? Not so much.
Israel continues to use force to push Palestinians out of their homes and off their land in order to make way for what are explicitly called settlers. This is not an academic question, this is settler colonialism happening today in a concrete, explicit manner.
posted by ssg at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Israel continues to use force to push Palestinians out of their homes and off their land in order to make way for what are explicitly called settlers. This is not an academic question, this is settler colonialism happening today in a concrete, explicit manner.
posted by ssg at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think that's a great interview, but Khalidi is not at all making the case against framing the conflict in terms of settler colonialism. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land. That's not a pro- or anti- Palestinian statement per se, just a comprehension of the difficulty of the present situation.
To quote from the interview again:
A common Zionist framing is that pro-Palestinian activism or advocacy denies the right of the State of Israel to exist and that slogans like “from the river to the sea,” are themselves genocidal. How do you read this?
There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist. There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that there’s such a thing as Israeli peoplehood, which there manifestly, obviously is. Israelis are a people. A lot of Palestinians don’t realize that many settler colonial projects have created peoples. We live in a settler colonial project in the United States. Anybody who’s not part of the original indigenous population is a settler. But as Mahmood Mamdani’s book Neither Settler nor Native asks, when do the settlers become natives? It’s a thorny question politically, because even if you accept that there’s an Israeli people, and if you say peoples have the right to self-determination, this is coming on top of a process of denial of Palestinian identity and national rights, dispossession, expulsion, and ethnic cleansing. All of those things have to be understood and addressed before you’re going to be able to figure out how these two peoples come to terms.
What I’ve just said is not something you can fit into a slogan or the kind of heated propagandistic claims that you just mentioned. I personally have no problem with people seeing the Land of Israel stretching from the river to the sea or wherever else they think it may stretch. The question is, what political and other consequences flow from that? If that means absolute, exclusive rights for one people and the oppression of another people, then obviously that’s not acceptable. And the same would be true of Palestine. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” What does that mean? Well, if it means the Palestinians are no longer oppressed, but don’t oppress Israelis, I would hope that would not be a problem. But, again, different Palestinians have different views on this. And I think that the heightened repression and offensive actions taken by Israeli governments over many years have driven Palestinians from where they were in the Oslo period, when they were willing to accept a manifestly unjust two-state solution, as long as it ended up involving real Palestinian sovereignty and statehood, to wherever they are today.
posted by coffeecat at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land. That's not a pro- or anti- Palestinian statement per se, just a comprehension of the difficulty of the present situation.
To quote from the interview again:
A common Zionist framing is that pro-Palestinian activism or advocacy denies the right of the State of Israel to exist and that slogans like “from the river to the sea,” are themselves genocidal. How do you read this?
There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that Israel has a right to exist. There are a lot of Palestinians who don’t believe that there’s such a thing as Israeli peoplehood, which there manifestly, obviously is. Israelis are a people. A lot of Palestinians don’t realize that many settler colonial projects have created peoples. We live in a settler colonial project in the United States. Anybody who’s not part of the original indigenous population is a settler. But as Mahmood Mamdani’s book Neither Settler nor Native asks, when do the settlers become natives? It’s a thorny question politically, because even if you accept that there’s an Israeli people, and if you say peoples have the right to self-determination, this is coming on top of a process of denial of Palestinian identity and national rights, dispossession, expulsion, and ethnic cleansing. All of those things have to be understood and addressed before you’re going to be able to figure out how these two peoples come to terms.
What I’ve just said is not something you can fit into a slogan or the kind of heated propagandistic claims that you just mentioned. I personally have no problem with people seeing the Land of Israel stretching from the river to the sea or wherever else they think it may stretch. The question is, what political and other consequences flow from that? If that means absolute, exclusive rights for one people and the oppression of another people, then obviously that’s not acceptable. And the same would be true of Palestine. “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.” What does that mean? Well, if it means the Palestinians are no longer oppressed, but don’t oppress Israelis, I would hope that would not be a problem. But, again, different Palestinians have different views on this. And I think that the heightened repression and offensive actions taken by Israeli governments over many years have driven Palestinians from where they were in the Oslo period, when they were willing to accept a manifestly unjust two-state solution, as long as it ended up involving real Palestinian sovereignty and statehood, to wherever they are today.
posted by coffeecat at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [9 favorites]
sotonohito: I work on the assumption that as they have in the past Hamas will continue to attack Israel no matter what else happens and that the only limit on the attacks Hamas will engage in are material, not ideological or political. Which is why I don't include an option 4 where Hamas gives up, or even agrees to a truce.
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy, and react in flexible ways to short-term conditions. As you draw out scenarios, you might as well assume that Hamas will be at least as flexible as the current Israeli government.
...which, okay, fine, isn't very.
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2023
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy, and react in flexible ways to short-term conditions. As you draw out scenarios, you might as well assume that Hamas will be at least as flexible as the current Israeli government.
...which, okay, fine, isn't very.
posted by clawsoon at 1:57 PM on October 29, 2023
"Adam Abusalah, a 22-year-old Palestinian-American activist from Dearborn, was born and raised in this country. “All my siblings are educated, and they work, and we contributed – we contribute to the success of this society. But right now I feel like my country hates me,” Abusalah said.
“I feel like I’m less American than others, but in reality, I’m not. And that’s not just how I feel: that’s how Palestinians all across the country feel.”
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
“I feel like I’m less American than others, but in reality, I’m not. And that’s not just how I feel: that’s how Palestinians all across the country feel.”
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy,
Can you name 10. I would like to reiterate what others set up thread is that bringing in stream of consciousness with good plausible moral arguments with no backup information is really hard to follow and can seem disingenuous I don't believe that's your case clawsoon.
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on October 29, 2023
Can you name 10. I would like to reiterate what others set up thread is that bringing in stream of consciousness with good plausible moral arguments with no backup information is really hard to follow and can seem disingenuous I don't believe that's your case clawsoon.
posted by clavdivs at 2:06 PM on October 29, 2023
In yet more depressing news in the Muslim region of Dagestan in Russia an antisemitic lynch mob has stormed the airport looking for Jews and those with Israeli passports.
In positive news Israel turned another one of the water lines into Gaza back on.
posted by interogative mood at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
In positive news Israel turned another one of the water lines into Gaza back on.
posted by interogative mood at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
He is making the case against framing unarmed settlers as legitimate military targets, which is not an argument that anyone in this thread is making.
No one is making it directly, certainly, but folks are rejecting the direct implications of them not being military targets. Which is to say, if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them, including by attacking Hamas where they are based. That's separate from any individual tactic being used by Israel which too often involves collective punishment.
The line between "an Israeli military campaign in Gaza is illegitimate" and "the specific tactics used by Israel in their campaign are illegitimate" is often being blurred and people are jumping back and forth between them depending on the comment.
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
No one is making it directly, certainly, but folks are rejecting the direct implications of them not being military targets. Which is to say, if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them, including by attacking Hamas where they are based. That's separate from any individual tactic being used by Israel which too often involves collective punishment.
The line between "an Israeli military campaign in Gaza is illegitimate" and "the specific tactics used by Israel in their campaign are illegitimate" is often being blurred and people are jumping back and forth between them depending on the comment.
posted by Justinian at 2:16 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
In yet more depressing news in the Muslim region of Dagestan in Russia an antisemitic lynch mob has stormed the airport looking for Jews and those with Israeli passports.
This is appalling, and shouldn't be happening; meanwhile, an anti-Arab lynch mob stormed the student dormitories of Netanya College in Israel, seeking to kill Arab students, and armed gangs of violent settlers are roving the West Bank and engaging in murder and forcing Palestinians off their land, which is also appalling and shouldn't be happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is appalling, and shouldn't be happening; meanwhile, an anti-Arab lynch mob stormed the student dormitories of Netanya College in Israel, seeking to kill Arab students, and armed gangs of violent settlers are roving the West Bank and engaging in murder and forcing Palestinians off their land, which is also appalling and shouldn't be happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [12 favorites]
Because I'm over here sinking into existential despair
sotonohito, I don’t want to add to your despair, but I don’t see outcomes where most of the Palestinians leave Gaza as ‘good’ outcomes for Israel. They would leave it with a stain on its morality that it would likely never redeem. But I have no good Option 4. I really hope someone comes up with one.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
sotonohito, I don’t want to add to your despair, but I don’t see outcomes where most of the Palestinians leave Gaza as ‘good’ outcomes for Israel. They would leave it with a stain on its morality that it would likely never redeem. But I have no good Option 4. I really hope someone comes up with one.
posted by Flight Hardware, do not touch at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Lots of violent organizations evolve over time, have internal debates about strategy,
Can you name 10.
The PLO? Also the IRA and ANC. Violent militant movements do sign peace agreements and become relatively peaceful political parties, it happens.
if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them,
Even if Hamas was only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
This bumps up against the difference between jus in bello (laws of what you can do in war) and jus ad bellum (laws of when you can wage war at all). You can adhere to one while ignoring the other in either direction. Discussions about the morality of war tend to have those end up leaking into each other; whether you can really separate them out as a matter of morality, I don't know.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Can you name 10.
The PLO? Also the IRA and ANC. Violent militant movements do sign peace agreements and become relatively peaceful political parties, it happens.
if Hamas' attacks are usually terrorism rather than legitimate resistance then Israel has the right and duty to defend itself against them,
Even if Hamas was only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
This bumps up against the difference between jus in bello (laws of what you can do in war) and jus ad bellum (laws of when you can wage war at all). You can adhere to one while ignoring the other in either direction. Discussions about the morality of war tend to have those end up leaking into each other; whether you can really separate them out as a matter of morality, I don't know.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Even if Hamas was "fighting fair" by only killing active IDF soldiers and not war criming at all, Israel would seem to have the right to defend itself against them?
Well its a lot more complicated ethically in that situation given the civilian toll of the campaign in Gaza. But we don't have to get into it because Hamas is clearly not engaging in legitimate armed resistance by their actions. Which is good because boy would that be a morass. (the discussion; the situation is clearly already a morass)
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well its a lot more complicated ethically in that situation given the civilian toll of the campaign in Gaza. But we don't have to get into it because Hamas is clearly not engaging in legitimate armed resistance by their actions. Which is good because boy would that be a morass. (the discussion; the situation is clearly already a morass)
posted by Justinian at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can you name 10
Let's see... the IRA, the PLO, the Bolsheviks, the Irgun, both the Contras and Sandinistas, the WSPU, the ETA, FARC, the Black Panthers, the ANC...
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings, which basically translates to "we should argue a lot about what to do." Even the Tamil Tigers, which were tightly controlled for their entire existence by the same man, had changes in their approach over time. (Often for the worse, but, still, changes.)
Thinking that it's impossible for them to evolve is in some ways to deny that they're humans with the full range of human abilities, and to put them back into the category of lab rats who only understand "pain" or "no pain".
posted by clawsoon at 2:53 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
Let's see... the IRA, the PLO, the Bolsheviks, the Irgun, both the Contras and Sandinistas, the WSPU, the ETA, FARC, the Black Panthers, the ANC...
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings, which basically translates to "we should argue a lot about what to do." Even the Tamil Tigers, which were tightly controlled for their entire existence by the same man, had changes in their approach over time. (Often for the worse, but, still, changes.)
Thinking that it's impossible for them to evolve is in some ways to deny that they're humans with the full range of human abilities, and to put them back into the category of lab rats who only understand "pain" or "no pain".
posted by clawsoon at 2:53 PM on October 29, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'd think it'd be harder to name 10 that didn't, especially movements with ideological wings
yup.
perhaps the Republican Party could learn something from this.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on October 29, 2023
yup.
perhaps the Republican Party could learn something from this.
posted by clavdivs at 3:01 PM on October 29, 2023
Khalidi argues it's overly-simplistic to frame this conflict as entirely between "settler colonialists" vs. "indigenous" - what's happening in the West Bank is of course settler colonialism (I don't think anyone in this thread is denying that re:WB, though I know some comments got deleted). He is very clear that the challenge is that there is an Israeli people, just like there is a Palestinian people, and both with ties to the same land.
I think there's an important point here, which is that many, many people believe that Israel is a settler-colonialist state (and not just in the West Bank) and also do not believe that everyone whose ancestors immigrated to Israel in the last 150 years should just pack up and leave. This is what Khalidi is arguing, but it is also a pretty commonly held belief. Unfortunately, many people argue as if these are one and the same thing and that tends to prevent any kind of real discussion.
I also believe my home, Canada, is a settler-colonialist state (though in a quite different way than Israel is), but I'm not packing my bags to move to Germany just because that's where my grandparents came from.
posted by ssg at 3:03 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think there's an important point here, which is that many, many people believe that Israel is a settler-colonialist state (and not just in the West Bank) and also do not believe that everyone whose ancestors immigrated to Israel in the last 150 years should just pack up and leave. This is what Khalidi is arguing, but it is also a pretty commonly held belief. Unfortunately, many people argue as if these are one and the same thing and that tends to prevent any kind of real discussion.
I also believe my home, Canada, is a settler-colonialist state (though in a quite different way than Israel is), but I'm not packing my bags to move to Germany just because that's where my grandparents came from.
posted by ssg at 3:03 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Gaza hospital braces for bombs: "...the hospital received two phone calls 'with a clear and direct threat' from Israeli authorities instructing them to evacuate the hospital. 'They mentioned that this area is going to be a military zone, that there will be clashes and the area will be dangerous and that we have to evacuate quickly,' said Bassam Mourad, director of Al-Quds Hospital."
Inside Al-Quds Hospital after nearby 'rocket attack': "The Palestinian Red Crescent Society has posted on X (formerly known as Twitter), footage it says shows the inside of the Al-Quds Hospital in northern Gaza, after what it said was a nearby rocket attack."
Al Jazeera is saying "20m from the hospital".
Is this setting up for some kind of "we warned you, we really really warned you, what happens to you next is your fault" situation?
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Inside Al-Quds Hospital after nearby 'rocket attack': "The Palestinian Red Crescent Society has posted on X (formerly known as Twitter), footage it says shows the inside of the Al-Quds Hospital in northern Gaza, after what it said was a nearby rocket attack."
Al Jazeera is saying "20m from the hospital".
Is this setting up for some kind of "we warned you, we really really warned you, what happens to you next is your fault" situation?
posted by clawsoon at 3:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
If armed settlers are military combatants, and I think the general intent and motivations behind the settlers project makes clear that they are intended to be aggressive and provocation..... That makes the non armed settlers, what exactly? Human shields? Complicit allies? I'm not trying to be snarky there, it seems like a really important question. Trespassers? Criminal accessories and partners? Still completely wrong and taking advantage of the political system to do crimes?
I've suggested some peace plans in the other thread. I'm particularly pleased by Potlucks for Peace, where Israeli citizens invade Gaza with nothing but love, food, medical care, and a willingness to be human shields against right wing bombs. Tear down that wall, throw open the border, reject the cycle of violence. Make friends. Love people like almost all religions say to do.
The Israeli leadership strategy for the past 15 years at least is dedicated to 'mowing the Hamas grass', IE, maintaining simmering warfare and violence and hate. I think the most heavily armed group has to do a little bit more of turning swords to plowshares. Do whatever it takes to commit to real peace. Stop provocations, turn on the freaking power and water, be dedicated to building bridges and communication. Accept the risks of letting people who are different into your society. It might change the society from your Dream Goals, but sticking to those seems to lead to war. Everyone here is human, and reacting very human. Stop the pressure, spend just as much on literal defense, but switch the entire offense budget to peace plans. Plant flowers instead of buying more destructive lawnmowers.
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes. Someone who doesn't care about the religions, the history, the past, just about ending human suffering here, now, immediately. Yes, this will take armed troops. Yes, they will be extremely unpopular for a while. But attacks from anybody against anyone else are treated equally. They are illegal and will be policed as such. Meanwhile the carrot is that everyone gets food, power, good shelter, no missile attacks, and enough money at least to live with. It will at least stop throwing gas on the fire long enough to stop the cycle of murderous tragedy. If X # of groups seem incapable of not killing each other, there's at least some arguments for someone making them stop, with as much impartial justice and mercy and compassion as possible.
And yes, I think there's some value to the concept of making Jerusalem and other trouble areas entirely open cities. It's somewhat tongue in cheek, but boy am I amused by the concept of upsetting everyone possible at once. Sure, it's way less... Sane or viable than civilians protecting civilians, or governments giving up expansionists and repressive goals, but hey, nobody wins so nobody has to die.
I don't really understand why bigotry works... I'm always of the opinion that trying to forge peace should work. But if civilians have a zero tolerance policy for violence against other civilians, there's no need for endless violence, right? Idealistic dreams, I know.
posted by Jacen at 3:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I've suggested some peace plans in the other thread. I'm particularly pleased by Potlucks for Peace, where Israeli citizens invade Gaza with nothing but love, food, medical care, and a willingness to be human shields against right wing bombs. Tear down that wall, throw open the border, reject the cycle of violence. Make friends. Love people like almost all religions say to do.
The Israeli leadership strategy for the past 15 years at least is dedicated to 'mowing the Hamas grass', IE, maintaining simmering warfare and violence and hate. I think the most heavily armed group has to do a little bit more of turning swords to plowshares. Do whatever it takes to commit to real peace. Stop provocations, turn on the freaking power and water, be dedicated to building bridges and communication. Accept the risks of letting people who are different into your society. It might change the society from your Dream Goals, but sticking to those seems to lead to war. Everyone here is human, and reacting very human. Stop the pressure, spend just as much on literal defense, but switch the entire offense budget to peace plans. Plant flowers instead of buying more destructive lawnmowers.
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes. Someone who doesn't care about the religions, the history, the past, just about ending human suffering here, now, immediately. Yes, this will take armed troops. Yes, they will be extremely unpopular for a while. But attacks from anybody against anyone else are treated equally. They are illegal and will be policed as such. Meanwhile the carrot is that everyone gets food, power, good shelter, no missile attacks, and enough money at least to live with. It will at least stop throwing gas on the fire long enough to stop the cycle of murderous tragedy. If X # of groups seem incapable of not killing each other, there's at least some arguments for someone making them stop, with as much impartial justice and mercy and compassion as possible.
And yes, I think there's some value to the concept of making Jerusalem and other trouble areas entirely open cities. It's somewhat tongue in cheek, but boy am I amused by the concept of upsetting everyone possible at once. Sure, it's way less... Sane or viable than civilians protecting civilians, or governments giving up expansionists and repressive goals, but hey, nobody wins so nobody has to die.
I don't really understand why bigotry works... I'm always of the opinion that trying to forge peace should work. But if civilians have a zero tolerance policy for violence against other civilians, there's no need for endless violence, right? Idealistic dreams, I know.
posted by Jacen at 3:14 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Find someone willing to be a benevolent dictator for the area for as long as it takes.
That guy was supposed to be Muhammad Dahlan: "The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power."
If you mean, why doesn't someone else occupy Gaza... well, Gaza has been occupied before. Hamas grew up under Israeli occupation. It's hard to see another occupation- by anyone- working out this time.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2023
That guy was supposed to be Muhammad Dahlan: "The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power."
If you mean, why doesn't someone else occupy Gaza... well, Gaza has been occupied before. Hamas grew up under Israeli occupation. It's hard to see another occupation- by anyone- working out this time.
posted by BungaDunga at 3:26 PM on October 29, 2023
Konstantin at Inside Russia - [attempted]JEWISH POGROMS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW IN SOUTHERN RUSSIA 29.10.2023
Same like with Prigozhin - the State organs can suppress and maintain order, but once there is a critical mass they just melt away. This is blowback.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Same like with Prigozhin - the State organs can suppress and maintain order, but once there is a critical mass they just melt away. This is blowback.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:27 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
With Russia these days we don’t know if this is blowback or state sanctioned violence as a warning to Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 4:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 4:26 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
we don’t know if this is blowback or state sanctioned violence
And meanwhile what's happening in the West Bank looks every bit like state-sanctioned violence and ethnic cleansing, since the settlers killing Palestinians and expelling them from their villages are doing so under the protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
And meanwhile what's happening in the West Bank looks every bit like state-sanctioned violence and ethnic cleansing, since the settlers killing Palestinians and expelling them from their villages are doing so under the protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:42 PM on October 29, 2023 [11 favorites]
ssg The thing is, you don't need to get into the fraught history thing to oppose the settlers. They're clearly colonizers and even people who believe Israel was 100% legitimately founded and in no way a colonial project should be no issues objecting to the modern settlers. They're literally invading homes, evicting the owners, threatening to murder them, and taking the land. It doesn't much matter what a person thinks of Israel's history to see that's wrong.
So what I'm asking is: what practical reason do you have for digging into the history? You can't make Israel vanish in a puff of logic if you prove (to whoever's satisfaction) that Israel was founded illegitimately, or that it was a colonial project, or whatever.
Israel exists. Israeli people exist in Israel. That's the reality we have to deal with right now, should have beens don't matter.
The Litany of Gendlin applies here:
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
interogative mood I will note that in most other contexts people tend to describe Russia's 1996 and 1999 actions in Chechnya as a human rights catastrophe verging on genocide if not actually genocide. Virtually every single person who passed through a Russian filtration point was tortured and/or raped.
I will concede it's a different model, but I can't say I think it's better than 2 or 3.
posted by sotonohito at 4:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
So what I'm asking is: what practical reason do you have for digging into the history? You can't make Israel vanish in a puff of logic if you prove (to whoever's satisfaction) that Israel was founded illegitimately, or that it was a colonial project, or whatever.
Israel exists. Israeli people exist in Israel. That's the reality we have to deal with right now, should have beens don't matter.
The Litany of Gendlin applies here:
What is true is already so.What is true is that Israel exists and Israeli people exist. What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts. And with the fact that the Israeli people aren't just going to leave.
Owning up to it doesn't make it worse.
Not being open about it doesn't make it go away.
And because it's true, it is what is there to be interacted with.
Anything untrue isn't there to be lived.
People can stand what is true,
for they are already enduring it.
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
interogative mood I will note that in most other contexts people tend to describe Russia's 1996 and 1999 actions in Chechnya as a human rights catastrophe verging on genocide if not actually genocide. Virtually every single person who passed through a Russian filtration point was tortured and/or raped.
I will concede it's a different model, but I can't say I think it's better than 2 or 3.
posted by sotonohito at 4:56 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Guardian: a mob stormed the international airport in the capital of Dagestan, looking for Jewish passengers.
Reports of anti-Jewish acts were not confined to Makhachkala. In Nalchik, another city in the neighbouring Kabardino-Balkaria region, a planned Jewish centre was set on fire earlier on Sunday. Earlier on Sunday, protesters also besieged a hotel in the Dagestani city of Khasavyurt, searching rooms for “Jewish refugees”.
“We are receiving reports from 4 different cities in Dagestan … of mobs demanding to kill the Jews,” tweeted Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt, a former chief rabbi of Moscow who left in 2022 after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
The announced motive of these convulsions aside, it is prompting discussion of the continued safety of Dagestani ("Mountain") Jews.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reports of anti-Jewish acts were not confined to Makhachkala. In Nalchik, another city in the neighbouring Kabardino-Balkaria region, a planned Jewish centre was set on fire earlier on Sunday. Earlier on Sunday, protesters also besieged a hotel in the Dagestani city of Khasavyurt, searching rooms for “Jewish refugees”.
“We are receiving reports from 4 different cities in Dagestan … of mobs demanding to kill the Jews,” tweeted Rabbi Pinchas Goldschmidt, a former chief rabbi of Moscow who left in 2022 after Russia launched its full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
The announced motive of these convulsions aside, it is prompting discussion of the continued safety of Dagestani ("Mountain") Jews.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:58 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
(I would have posted this in the other thread, but it seems like all discussion has moved here.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:08 PM on October 29, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sotonohito counter insurgency operations all use the same basic template. The Russians added a lot more violence and human rights violations. However even similar US actions in Iraq in places like Fallujah were pretty awful. This situation is completely terrible now.
posted by interogative mood at 6:22 PM on October 29, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:22 PM on October 29, 2023
perhaps the Republican Party could learnlemme stop you right there
posted by Flunkie at 7:17 PM on October 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
What Does “From the River to the Sea” Really Mean?
posted by ssg at 9:02 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:02 PM on October 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
If your plan is "the Israeli population acknowledges that Israel was founded improperly and they leave so the Palestinians can have the land back and everything will be great" then you don't have a plan, you have a fantasy.
I don't know what decolonisation discourse is like where you are, but people who think it means all the settlers being forcibly deported get pretty short shrift here for being unserious and not engaging in good faith. As was said upthread, that's the coloniser mentality, the paranoia that their own crimes will be visited upon them in retribution.
Decolonisation *does*, to me, mean that Australia, Canada, so on, will have to change fundamentally as countries. Names might change - see Aotearoa. Legal systems will have to change, land ownership systems, understandings of kinship, constitutions need amending or rewriting.
Those are the consequences of being "founded improperly" (which rather makes it seem like a filing error, rather than ethnic cleansing at best). It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
You can't extract promises from the colonised that they'll reshape everything in the way that is most comfortable for you, but always jumping to "but I was born here, where would I go?" isn't exactly engaging fairly. Something like all major languages having equal status is perhaps a better starting point.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don't know what decolonisation discourse is like where you are, but people who think it means all the settlers being forcibly deported get pretty short shrift here for being unserious and not engaging in good faith. As was said upthread, that's the coloniser mentality, the paranoia that their own crimes will be visited upon them in retribution.
Decolonisation *does*, to me, mean that Australia, Canada, so on, will have to change fundamentally as countries. Names might change - see Aotearoa. Legal systems will have to change, land ownership systems, understandings of kinship, constitutions need amending or rewriting.
Those are the consequences of being "founded improperly" (which rather makes it seem like a filing error, rather than ethnic cleansing at best). It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
You can't extract promises from the colonised that they'll reshape everything in the way that is most comfortable for you, but always jumping to "but I was born here, where would I go?" isn't exactly engaging fairly. Something like all major languages having equal status is perhaps a better starting point.
posted by Audreynachrome at 9:04 PM on October 29, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don’t think it is possible convince Israeli Jews that they are colonizers of the land that is the birthplace of Jewish culture and history. Try telling them that Israel isn’t a restoration of something lost and a refuge for a people who have survived and persisted as a distinct culture through millennia of Diaspora and persecution. All those celebrations that include phrase, “next year in Jerusalem.”
I think that calling them colonizers only serves to provoke anger and outrage among many Israelis and it ends up being used as a justification by Hamas for its continued campaign of violence to destroy Israel and its position that Israel must be replaced with an Islamic country.
posted by interogative mood at 9:50 PM on October 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think that calling them colonizers only serves to provoke anger and outrage among many Israelis and it ends up being used as a justification by Hamas for its continued campaign of violence to destroy Israel and its position that Israel must be replaced with an Islamic country.
posted by interogative mood at 9:50 PM on October 29, 2023 [15 favorites]
Let me add it also lets people like Netanyahu present themselves as staunch defenders of Israel’s legitimacy against the evil leftists who want to destroy Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:52 PM on October 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Well I’m sure once we figure out the exact right English language word to use to describe the situation prior to Oct 7, Netanyahu will call for an immediate ceasefire and end the ethnic cleansing his government is currently carrying out in Gaza and the West Bank at his direction.
posted by ohneat at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by ohneat at 3:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [19 favorites]
I don’t think it is possible convince Israeli Jews that they are colonizers of the land that is the birthplace of Jewish culture and history.
What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
What is true is that Palestinian people exist and Palestinian territory (sort of) exists. Anything that is going to happen must deal with those facts.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
interogative mood: Let me add it also lets people like Netanyahu present themselves as staunch defenders of Israel’s legitimacy against the evil leftists who want to destroy Israel.
That will always be an advantage of right wing parties everywhere, though, won't it? "You benefit fromthe existing power structures this great nation that you are proud of. Leftists want to change that, vote for me instead."
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
That will always be an advantage of right wing parties everywhere, though, won't it? "You benefit from
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
A fair number of the headlines about the riot in Dagestan describe it as a "demonstration".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:49 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 5:49 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't agree with you in that the dissolution of Israel would be the best solution. ...
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century.
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
posted by Lanark at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century.
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
posted by Lanark at 6:12 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
A fair number of the headlines about the riot in Dagestan describe it as a "demonstration".
The AP's first story on it was headlined "Crowd storms Russian airport to protest flight from Israel" which... does not really capture the tenor of what happened, even as described in the initial reports.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
The AP's first story on it was headlined "Crowd storms Russian airport to protest flight from Israel" which... does not really capture the tenor of what happened, even as described in the initial reports.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sim Kern addressed this question using the example of US history with the abolition of slavery where the exact same arguments were made.
for me the issue is less "but how we will protect the Jews in this new state" (as in the linked video) but more "what army suppresses the incipient hard-right settler insurrection this is guaranteed to generate."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
for me the issue is less "but how we will protect the Jews in this new state" (as in the linked video) but more "what army suppresses the incipient hard-right settler insurrection this is guaranteed to generate."
posted by BungaDunga at 6:43 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
The problem with a single multi-ethnic state is that we're probably going to get Yugoslavia 2.0 within half a century
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
good tweet thread from activist, musician, and filmmaker Boots Riley about how some of the things people are saying about Hamas are not accurate. copy and pasting below (original typos included - that's just Boots):
"Ppl keep saying Hamas's charter says "kill all jews"
1000s r being killed w them as justification, so I looked it up
Theyve had newer charters.
The latest is 2017.
1) they say their struggle isnt against Jews
2) they say they want the 1967 borders
From the Hamas Charter (2017):
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
"Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds."
"Hamas considers establishment of a fully sovereign & independent Palestinian state, w Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, w the return of the refugees & the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, 2b a formula of national consensus."
I mean- it seems like aomeone in the media couldve done the same google search as I did and found a giardian article and then went to all the publications that talked about this.
this isnt a question of whether one agrees w Hamas or not. I dont. I'm a communist & this group's origins come from IDF & Mossad, like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Its a question of what kind of stories we'r told to justify slaughter
And this info doesnt change anything materially- the 1400 Israelis who died on Oct 7th, the 8000 palestinians whove died since then- are all still dead.
But the idea that they are out to "kill all jews" has illogically manufactured consent for genocidal actions.
Here is the direct link to the 2017 charter
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
No.
But if u say Israel's killing 8000 ppl, 3500 of em KIDS, w 10s of thousnds more2die cuz Hamas's charter sez "kill all jews"&"Destroy israel",
but the charter sez "2 state solution"&"our struggle isnt vs jews"-
this needs2b said."
posted by JimBennett at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
"Ppl keep saying Hamas's charter says "kill all jews"
1000s r being killed w them as justification, so I looked it up
Theyve had newer charters.
The latest is 2017.
1) they say their struggle isnt against Jews
2) they say they want the 1967 borders
From the Hamas Charter (2017):
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
"Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds."
"Hamas considers establishment of a fully sovereign & independent Palestinian state, w Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, w the return of the refugees & the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, 2b a formula of national consensus."
I mean- it seems like aomeone in the media couldve done the same google search as I did and found a giardian article and then went to all the publications that talked about this.
this isnt a question of whether one agrees w Hamas or not. I dont. I'm a communist & this group's origins come from IDF & Mossad, like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Its a question of what kind of stories we'r told to justify slaughter
And this info doesnt change anything materially- the 1400 Israelis who died on Oct 7th, the 8000 palestinians whove died since then- are all still dead.
But the idea that they are out to "kill all jews" has illogically manufactured consent for genocidal actions.
Here is the direct link to the 2017 charter
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
No.
But if u say Israel's killing 8000 ppl, 3500 of em KIDS, w 10s of thousnds more2die cuz Hamas's charter sez "kill all jews"&"Destroy israel",
but the charter sez "2 state solution"&"our struggle isnt vs jews"-
this needs2b said."
posted by JimBennett at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
‘It could have all ended with us getting killed’: Passenger on flight from Israel to Russia’s Dagestan recounts anti-Semitic riot at airport. Pretty harrowing
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:10 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
For any of you wanting a deeper insight into the rich culture of Palestinian literature at this time, NS Ahmed provides a list of novels, non fiction and poetry.
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 8:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
The 2017 Statement of principles does not revoke the 1988 Hamas charter. Hamas leaders have at times described it as outdated but have stated that it cannot be changed or amended. The 2017 charter does moderate some views and acknowledge a national consensus onto create a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders and accepts the idea of some temporary state of Israel with a long term truce. At the same time in section 21 it rejects the Oslo accords, security arrangements and cooperation.
In section 27 they state:
In multiple sections starting with section 2 they are clear that the this includes not just 1967 or 1948 borders; but the whole of the area. They explicitly reject the UN borders of 1948.
It is true that Hamas has made efforts to moderate at times and there have been ceasefires, unofficial negotiations and changes in enforcement of sanctions and the blockade in hopes of encouraging peace. These efforts have been undermined by provocations by the right wing and settler groups in Israel.
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
Hamas also makes claims in their 2017 Charter that their fight is only with the idea of Zionism and that they are not antisemitic.
Yet this is at odds with their history and conduct as noted in this 2005 article in The Journal of Palestine Studies.. The author points out that in most of their communications and propaganda they use the terms Jews and Zionist interchangeably.
Here’s a chilling moment from Hamas’ Al Aksa TV in 2014 where the message is “Kill all the Jews”. T
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI, has a page tracking reactions in Islamic media to the crisis here.
posted by interogative mood at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
In section 27 they state:
27. A real state of Palestine is a state that has been liberated. There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital.
In multiple sections starting with section 2 they are clear that the this includes not just 1967 or 1948 borders; but the whole of the area. They explicitly reject the UN borders of 1948.
It is true that Hamas has made efforts to moderate at times and there have been ceasefires, unofficial negotiations and changes in enforcement of sanctions and the blockade in hopes of encouraging peace. These efforts have been undermined by provocations by the right wing and settler groups in Israel.
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
Hamas also makes claims in their 2017 Charter that their fight is only with the idea of Zionism and that they are not antisemitic.
Yet this is at odds with their history and conduct as noted in this 2005 article in The Journal of Palestine Studies.. The author points out that in most of their communications and propaganda they use the terms Jews and Zionist interchangeably.
Here’s a chilling moment from Hamas’ Al Aksa TV in 2014 where the message is “Kill all the Jews”. T
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI, has a page tracking reactions in Islamic media to the crisis here.
posted by interogative mood at 8:54 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion."
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
On preview, what interogative mood said.
I'll link again to @rootsmetals on the Orientalist infantalisation of Hamas.
posted by fight or flight at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
On preview, what interogative mood said.
I'll link again to @rootsmetals on the Orientalist infantalisation of Hamas.
posted by fight or flight at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The organization referenced in the article, MEMRI
MEMRI is a propaganda outlet founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer and has a history of unreliable reporting. Everything from there should be treated with extreme skepticism, in my view. Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
MEMRI is a propaganda outlet founded by a former Israeli intelligence officer and has a history of unreliable reporting. Everything from there should be treated with extreme skepticism, in my view. Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:16 AM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Every ceasefire has ended with a return to violence and bigger attack out of Gaza by Hamas leading up to the fiasco on October 7th.
have the palestinian territories been liberated yet? no? then i am not surprised hamas is going to keep attacking.
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
i do actually think it's worth interrogating the media narratives we hear about Hamas given all the lies we've borne witness to over the last few weeks, especially given the tone of this thread.
posted by JimBennett at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
have the palestinian territories been liberated yet? no? then i am not surprised hamas is going to keep attacking.
I don't consider this to be particularly relevant right now, when the ultimate outcome of the above is the same: death and suffering for Israelis and Palestinians alike.
i do actually think it's worth interrogating the media narratives we hear about Hamas given all the lies we've borne witness to over the last few weeks, especially given the tone of this thread.
posted by JimBennett at 9:20 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's understandable that Jewish Israelis might have more reason to fear, but this pretence that anyone using terms like settler-colonisation thinks that means mass deportations is... well, ignorant at best.
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel. Whether it is because Israel was founded more recently or it is plain-old antisemitism, protesters in Canada call for the dissolution of the Israeli State and removal of the Israeli people with absolutely no acknowledgment of the irony of their own settler status. It is ignorant, but it's happening.
Let's complicate the issue: did you know about half the population of Israel Jews are from the Middle East? They are from Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. They were expelled in Nazi-inspired pogroms before the founding of Israel. There's a reason that it is the Sephardic version of Hebrew that became the national language. What is now Israel may have a minority Jewish population, and now has a majority Jewish population, but that's because the Jewish population was expelled from the rest of the entire region and concentrated into the one place that would accept them.
Are they settler-colonists? About as much so as the Mohawk who settled in Canada after the American revolution (that is: not an all). When you look at the genetics of Israeli Jews, they are most closely related to… Palestinians. They are both indigenous people.
Imposing settler-colonists models on Israel and Palestine completely distorts the history of the region. You can condemn the stupid-ass, religious and political fanatic settlers in the west bank, and recognize that they are invading what should be an independent state. Liberal Israelis and Jews have been calling for an end to the occupation and invasion of the west bank for decades. One can also acknowledge that ethnic cleansing absolutely happened in the founding of Israel, but we also need to remember that ethnic cleansing in both Europe and the Middle East is what led to the founding of Israel.
And as noted upthread, regardless of the situation 100 years ago, there is now an Israeli people. There is no just peace that does not find a place for the Israeli people, just as there is no just peace that does not find a place for Palestinians and other non Jewish Israeli people.
posted by jb at 9:39 AM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel. Whether it is because Israel was founded more recently or it is plain-old antisemitism, protesters in Canada call for the dissolution of the Israeli State and removal of the Israeli people with absolutely no acknowledgment of the irony of their own settler status. It is ignorant, but it's happening.
Let's complicate the issue: did you know about half the population of Israel Jews are from the Middle East? They are from Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, etc. They were expelled in Nazi-inspired pogroms before the founding of Israel. There's a reason that it is the Sephardic version of Hebrew that became the national language. What is now Israel may have a minority Jewish population, and now has a majority Jewish population, but that's because the Jewish population was expelled from the rest of the entire region and concentrated into the one place that would accept them.
Are they settler-colonists? About as much so as the Mohawk who settled in Canada after the American revolution (that is: not an all). When you look at the genetics of Israeli Jews, they are most closely related to… Palestinians. They are both indigenous people.
Imposing settler-colonists models on Israel and Palestine completely distorts the history of the region. You can condemn the stupid-ass, religious and political fanatic settlers in the west bank, and recognize that they are invading what should be an independent state. Liberal Israelis and Jews have been calling for an end to the occupation and invasion of the west bank for decades. One can also acknowledge that ethnic cleansing absolutely happened in the founding of Israel, but we also need to remember that ethnic cleansing in both Europe and the Middle East is what led to the founding of Israel.
And as noted upthread, regardless of the situation 100 years ago, there is now an Israeli people. There is no just peace that does not find a place for the Israeli people, just as there is no just peace that does not find a place for Palestinians and other non Jewish Israeli people.
posted by jb at 9:39 AM on October 30, 2023 [12 favorites]
What large scale organization involved with mass protests we've seen (In London, NY, and next weekend DC) is calling for "mass deportations from Israel"? Just curious who has stated this and what exactly they said.
posted by windbox at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Except that this is what anti-Israeli protesters are calling for in Israel.
Are they? How many? How prevalent is the claim among anti-Israeli protesters that all Jews in Israel must leave? What's your evidence for this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Here is an article in Der Spiegel on Al-Aqsa TV if MEMRI is too controversial a source for you. Or if you want another example of the pervasive antisemitism fostered by Hamas despite their denials read the following article from PBS website on Hamas' new textbooks. The article notes [the textbooks] do not recognize modern Israel, make no mention of the Oslo Peace Accords between Israel and the Palestinian Liberation Organization, and say the Jewish Torah and Talmud are “fabricated.”
posted by interogative mood at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:55 AM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know how much use it is going around and around on classifications that matter more to academics and activists than the people on the ground.
But, to the extent we're going to keep arguing about it, it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
But, to the extent we're going to keep arguing about it, it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:00 AM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
At this point, it's irrelevant what Hamas "is"; they launched an unarguably savage and indefensible terrorist attack on Israel on Oct 7. You are what you do.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Artful Codger at 10:22 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
At this point, it's irrelevant what Hamas "is"; they launched an unarguably savage and indefensible terrorist attack on Israel on Oct 7. You are what you do.
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas? or the genocidal fantasies of those in the Israeli govermnet? It may be informative of future actions but if your killing civilians and doing other bad stuff its kind of irrelevant to me if you're 100% a racist or 0% a racist.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas? or the genocidal fantasies of those in the Israeli govermnet? It may be informative of future actions but if your killing civilians and doing other bad stuff its kind of irrelevant to me if you're 100% a racist or 0% a racist.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:27 AM on October 30, 2023 [13 favorites]
it might be clarifying to ask if Marcus Garvey was promoting a program of 'settler-colonialism' with the 'Back to Africa' movement.
The answer to that question is "yes" (Liberia was also a settler colony); I don't know why this is conceptually hard to grasp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
The answer to that question is "yes" (Liberia was also a settler colony); I don't know why this is conceptually hard to grasp.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:30 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
What large scale organization involved with mass protests we've seen (In London, NY, and next weekend DC) is calling for "mass deportations from Israel"? Just curious who has stated this and what exactly they said.
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier". Leaving aside the Biden issue (this was about the hospital bombing in which the evidence increasingly has pointed to IJP), they were not chanting "end the occupation". This I would have happily joined. But what else can "end the occupier" mean? Ethnic cleansing feels like the kinder possibility. Hamas went for torture and slaughter.
I didn't ask for further details as I passed by. I was on my way home from synagogue, and I didn't feel safe drawing any attention. The same protest group later went on to protest outside a restaurant which happens to have been founded by Israelis but I can't figure out any other connection to the Israeli government.
I also know that leftist groups such as our local university unions, our public service union, and other speakers have not only not condemned the Hamas slaughter but have justified it as "resistance". There is no resistance that justifies rape or the purposeful killing of children. In Southern Israel, there were children who were tied up and burned alive on purpose. When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
When I was at synagogue on this Saturday, we prayed to end the bombing of Gaza, as well as for the return of the hostages.
posted by jb at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier". Leaving aside the Biden issue (this was about the hospital bombing in which the evidence increasingly has pointed to IJP), they were not chanting "end the occupation". This I would have happily joined. But what else can "end the occupier" mean? Ethnic cleansing feels like the kinder possibility. Hamas went for torture and slaughter.
I didn't ask for further details as I passed by. I was on my way home from synagogue, and I didn't feel safe drawing any attention. The same protest group later went on to protest outside a restaurant which happens to have been founded by Israelis but I can't figure out any other connection to the Israeli government.
I also know that leftist groups such as our local university unions, our public service union, and other speakers have not only not condemned the Hamas slaughter but have justified it as "resistance". There is no resistance that justifies rape or the purposeful killing of children. In Southern Israel, there were children who were tied up and burned alive on purpose. When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
When I was at synagogue on this Saturday, we prayed to end the bombing of Gaza, as well as for the return of the hostages.
posted by jb at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
read the following article from PBS website on Hamas' new textbooks.
Whoa that textbook stuff is so crazy! Do you mean to say that places led by extremist political parties with violent nationalist aspirations are not acknowledging a full and fair accounting of history in their school curriculum? Very disturbing stuff indeed.
I will maintain that for however shitty Hamas is, there is somewhere between 95-100% crossover with whatever the Likud party of the last ~20 years has been. Soldiers committing utterly despicable acts, indiscriminate violence and murder of civilians? Extreme hostility and prejudice toward "the other"? Censorship and borderline totalitarianism? Breaking of ceasefires and truces?
You name it and both sides have done it, and both of their civilian populations have had to suffer for it. Except a) it is the people of Gaza and the West Bank who have to suffer objectively, quantifiably, asymmetrically more because b) eh fuck 'em they are poor uncivilized arabs and when *they* do it, they are uniquely savage monsters acting out of bloodlust and #Hate, unlike Israel, the civilized liberal Official State acting out of #RightToDefend.
posted by windbox at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
Whoa that textbook stuff is so crazy! Do you mean to say that places led by extremist political parties with violent nationalist aspirations are not acknowledging a full and fair accounting of history in their school curriculum? Very disturbing stuff indeed.
I will maintain that for however shitty Hamas is, there is somewhere between 95-100% crossover with whatever the Likud party of the last ~20 years has been. Soldiers committing utterly despicable acts, indiscriminate violence and murder of civilians? Extreme hostility and prejudice toward "the other"? Censorship and borderline totalitarianism? Breaking of ceasefires and truces?
You name it and both sides have done it, and both of their civilian populations have had to suffer for it. Except a) it is the people of Gaza and the West Bank who have to suffer objectively, quantifiably, asymmetrically more because b) eh fuck 'em they are poor uncivilized arabs and when *they* do it, they are uniquely savage monsters acting out of bloodlust and #Hate, unlike Israel, the civilized liberal Official State acting out of #RightToDefend.
posted by windbox at 10:32 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
But what else can "end the occupier" mean?
Uh, ending the occupation? Which is the stated position of just left-wing radicals as.....the US government.
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
Uh, ending the occupation? Which is the stated position of just left-wing radicals as.....the US government.
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:36 AM on October 30, 2023 [15 favorites]
According to The Israel Democracy Institute, 83.4% of Israeli Jews don’t think that “Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza.”
Just imagine how far this fact would travel if it was:
83.4% of Gazans don’t think that “Hamas should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Israel.”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Just imagine how far this fact would travel if it was:
83.4% of Gazans don’t think that “Hamas should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Israel.”
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:44 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Same goes for the IDF, which has killed orders of magnitude more civilians than Hamas has since (anytime really) 10/7.
I know that in the end, a dead baby is a dead baby, which is why I oppose the bombing of Gaza (as well as the shooting of protesters in the west bank or the destruction of houses, etc.) But I think that we can acknowledge that it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization. Other details of the Hamas attack - the rape of women before killing them, burning children alive - indicate that the fighters did not merely wish to kill but also to torture and punish.
The Hamas attack does not justify an all out attack on Gaza, but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
I want to go to a protest against the war where I can carry an Israeli and a Palestinian flag together, where I can stand up for the controversial opinion that killing babies is wrong, that collective punishment is wrong. But I do not feel safe doing so.
posted by jb at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I know that in the end, a dead baby is a dead baby, which is why I oppose the bombing of Gaza (as well as the shooting of protesters in the west bank or the destruction of houses, etc.) But I think that we can acknowledge that it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization. Other details of the Hamas attack - the rape of women before killing them, burning children alive - indicate that the fighters did not merely wish to kill but also to torture and punish.
The Hamas attack does not justify an all out attack on Gaza, but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
I want to go to a protest against the war where I can carry an Israeli and a Palestinian flag together, where I can stand up for the controversial opinion that killing babies is wrong, that collective punishment is wrong. But I do not feel safe doing so.
posted by jb at 10:45 AM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
but what I want to hear from the protesters is that the injustices against Palestinians still do not justify the Hamas attack. I want to hear that killing and torturing Israelis is wrong, that what Hamas did was wrong, just like bombing people's homes is wrong. But I still have not heard that from the people who I thought of as my allies.
You haven't been paying very much attention then? Many of the protesters taking part in demonstrations organised by Jewish Voice for Peace have been saying those very things!
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:15 AM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
You haven't been paying very much attention then? Many of the protesters taking part in demonstrations organised by Jewish Voice for Peace have been saying those very things!
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:15 AM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
it is a very different action emotionally, if not logically, to look at a baby and shoot or stab them right in front of you. It takes a greater degree of dehumanization.
You compared the face-to-face murder of children to the murder of children by bombs, and I agree that logically, morally, nothing distinguishes them. And I don't think anyone really has a right to tell, say, the parents of the latter child that the killer is less monstrous than the killer of the former child because one murderer had access to equipment that enabled impersonal murder at a distance and the other murderer did not. I do not acknowledge that one murder is a different action emotionally, because I'm lucky not to have had my child murdered and I wouldn't presume to really know the feelings of someone who has.
I do remember living in the post-9/11 US; many of my neighbours gave every indication of wishing to torture and punish. The torture and punishment inflicted on innocents using impersonal missiles and bombs was part of the same programme as the face-to-face atrocities committed in prisons and secret locations and more conventionally regarded as torture and punishment. What's actually monstrous is for those of us mercifully removed from the situation to centre our own visceral reactions in apportioning our moral judgment, since that leads to relative permissiveness of impersonal, arms-length atrocities compared to atrocities that are, perhaps, to many more shocking* but which are nonetheless atrocities, almost always larger in scale, and whose emotional impact I think can only be assessed accurately by those unfortunate enough to have experienced both types.
I think the idea that one form of murder requires more or less dehumanisation than the other is a contestable claim that, if true, makes the "easier" one even more alarming. But I don't think it's true; I just think that the degree to which different people are background-pre-dehumanised in the eyes of the world is not the same, and if the Israeli army had perpetrated their atrocities in the same manner that Hamas did theirs (and, with ground troops involved, they will --- invading armies and counterinsurgencies inevitably commit atrocities, nothing special about Israel) the reaction in the international press, from international governments, etc. would have been quite different. You know that's the case.
*Check out the early history of aerial bombardment, though, because I think this is a product of cultural narratives, not some kind of innate emotional impact. The initial emotional reaction to the practice of bombing cities from the air was intense moral outrage.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
You compared the face-to-face murder of children to the murder of children by bombs, and I agree that logically, morally, nothing distinguishes them. And I don't think anyone really has a right to tell, say, the parents of the latter child that the killer is less monstrous than the killer of the former child because one murderer had access to equipment that enabled impersonal murder at a distance and the other murderer did not. I do not acknowledge that one murder is a different action emotionally, because I'm lucky not to have had my child murdered and I wouldn't presume to really know the feelings of someone who has.
I do remember living in the post-9/11 US; many of my neighbours gave every indication of wishing to torture and punish. The torture and punishment inflicted on innocents using impersonal missiles and bombs was part of the same programme as the face-to-face atrocities committed in prisons and secret locations and more conventionally regarded as torture and punishment. What's actually monstrous is for those of us mercifully removed from the situation to centre our own visceral reactions in apportioning our moral judgment, since that leads to relative permissiveness of impersonal, arms-length atrocities compared to atrocities that are, perhaps, to many more shocking* but which are nonetheless atrocities, almost always larger in scale, and whose emotional impact I think can only be assessed accurately by those unfortunate enough to have experienced both types.
I think the idea that one form of murder requires more or less dehumanisation than the other is a contestable claim that, if true, makes the "easier" one even more alarming. But I don't think it's true; I just think that the degree to which different people are background-pre-dehumanised in the eyes of the world is not the same, and if the Israeli army had perpetrated their atrocities in the same manner that Hamas did theirs (and, with ground troops involved, they will --- invading armies and counterinsurgencies inevitably commit atrocities, nothing special about Israel) the reaction in the international press, from international governments, etc. would have been quite different. You know that's the case.
*Check out the early history of aerial bombardment, though, because I think this is a product of cultural narratives, not some kind of innate emotional impact. The initial emotional reaction to the practice of bombing cities from the air was intense moral outrage.
posted by busted_crayons at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
But more generally, I kind of agree with this. Who cares what's in the heart of hearts of Hamas?
My problem with how a lot of these discussions go is that when someone credits Hamas with being anything more than a gang of terrorist criminals, they needlessly complicate an issue of 2 million+ people being held hostage by (first) the criminal gang controlling their land and (second) by the Israeli military blockade ostensibly to stop the criminal gang.
"One Nation, from the river to the sea, with liberty and justice FOR ALL" is how I roll. And if your government cannot get consent of the governed, that's not a problem with the governed, but rather the government.
posted by mikelieman at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
My problem with how a lot of these discussions go is that when someone credits Hamas with being anything more than a gang of terrorist criminals, they needlessly complicate an issue of 2 million+ people being held hostage by (first) the criminal gang controlling their land and (second) by the Israeli military blockade ostensibly to stop the criminal gang.
"One Nation, from the river to the sea, with liberty and justice FOR ALL" is how I roll. And if your government cannot get consent of the governed, that's not a problem with the governed, but rather the government.
posted by mikelieman at 11:17 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't know the name of the organization, but at the very large protest outside the U.S. consulate on October 22 in Toronto, people were chanting "Biden is a liar, end the occupier"
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
posted by ssg at 11:26 AM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
According to The Israel Democracy Institute, 83.4% of Israeli Jews don’t think that “Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian population in Gaza.”. First of all the question was specifically about the planning of the military operation, not the suffering of Palestinians in general. Futhermore that number is a combination of two different answers from a Likert scale. In actual survey data (provided below) of Israeli Jews was 47.5% said not at all, and 35.9 said not so much. You could also spin the numbers and say that 48.8% of Israeli Jews in the poll said that Israel should at least show some concern for the suffering of Palestinian civilians in planning the military operation. If you add in the Israeli Arabs the number rises to almost 60% of Israelis saying that some concern should be shown.
Here is the press release and overview of the IDI survey referenced above. (Full data here)
Two relevant questions are:
15. To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?
Here is the press release and overview of the IDI survey referenced above. (Full data here)
Two relevant questions are:
15. To what extent do you think that Israel should take into consideration the suffering of the civilian Palestinian population in Gaza when planning the next phases of fighting there?
- 40% Not at all
- 30% Not so much
- 9% Quite a lot
- 14.6% Very much.
- 23.6% Strongly agree
- 30.0% Somewhat agree
- 22.6 % Somewhat Disagree
- 16.4% Strongly Disagree
- 7.4% Don't know
Imagining a prison with majority innocent people locked inside: "Yeah but why are you not protesting and speaking out against the violent prison gang running the inside of the prison? Seeing a lot of talk about closing the prison filled with innocent people, about freeing the innocent people inside of the prison...yet no one will condemn the lead violent prison gang? I simply do not feel safe with such deafening silence."
posted by windbox at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by windbox at 11:33 AM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel has killed more than three thousand children in Gaza and you're worried about people in Toronto chanting "end the occupier" (which, come on, it's a chant, it rhymes)?
Flagged. I know it's been a long day but can we not participate in mockery of or diminishing the lived experiences and feelings of Jewish Mefites? Antisemitism is happening around the world, it is real, it is violent. Yes, even in Toronto. Jews get to have feelings about this. Come on.
posted by fight or flight at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Flagged. I know it's been a long day but can we not participate in mockery of or diminishing the lived experiences and feelings of Jewish Mefites? Antisemitism is happening around the world, it is real, it is violent. Yes, even in Toronto. Jews get to have feelings about this. Come on.
posted by fight or flight at 11:34 AM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
The Person Covering Palestine-Israel Best Is … Piers Morgan? (Slate headline; I haven't personally verified.)
Currently watching the included sample interview with Bassem Youssef. Powerful. I may watch more. Or not. It's thought-provoking. And painful. Reality is hard.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Currently watching the included sample interview with Bassem Youssef. Powerful. I may watch more. Or not. It's thought-provoking. And painful. Reality is hard.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyone looking for a more reliable treatment of, for instance, Hamas should probably begin their search elsewhere.
Do you have any suggested sources?
I understand that I'm not super informed, but the vibe that I get is that Likud and Hamas have been in a sort of implicit symbiosis for some time. Violent right-wing people that benefit from being able to point across to the other and say "Look at how violent they are over there! You obviously need strong men like us around in a dangerous situation like this.".
I get the impression that some people think that Hamas is a force for liberation. I must admit that I don't know what life in Gaza is like (or was like before this new conflagration), but I do wonder how Hamas treats Palestinians that want Hamas to take a different course, or want Hamas to be replaced with some different leadership. If Hamas would entertain a peaceful transfer of the power they hold within Gaza, why would they not hold elections for more than a decade? If Hamas would not entertain such a transition, they don't sound like they represent liberation for Palestinians so much as another oppressor.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you have any suggested sources?
I understand that I'm not super informed, but the vibe that I get is that Likud and Hamas have been in a sort of implicit symbiosis for some time. Violent right-wing people that benefit from being able to point across to the other and say "Look at how violent they are over there! You obviously need strong men like us around in a dangerous situation like this.".
I get the impression that some people think that Hamas is a force for liberation. I must admit that I don't know what life in Gaza is like (or was like before this new conflagration), but I do wonder how Hamas treats Palestinians that want Hamas to take a different course, or want Hamas to be replaced with some different leadership. If Hamas would entertain a peaceful transfer of the power they hold within Gaza, why would they not hold elections for more than a decade? If Hamas would not entertain such a transition, they don't sound like they represent liberation for Palestinians so much as another oppressor.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 12:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
ssg previously posted this, and this also discusses the meaning of the phrase at some length. "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
posted by kensington314 at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
No. That's not what it means.
ssg previously posted this, and this also discusses the meaning of the phrase at some length. "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
posted by kensington314 at 12:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Imagining a prison with majority innocent people locked inside: "Yeah but why are you not protesting and speaking out against the violent prison gang running the inside of the prison? Seeing a lot of talk about closing the prison filled with innocent people, about freeing the innocent people inside of the prison...yet no one will condemn the lead violent prison gang? I simply do not feel safe with such deafening silence."
I want to try to express something very complex in a careful way. I don't think I can express it right, or avoid being misunderstood. But it's something I've been turning over and over in my head.
I think part of why people who are sympathetic to Palestinians still react very strongly to a lot of anti-Zionist rhetoric is because so much of it seems to assume that Israel's role in this situation is motivated by something like pure evil. What Israel is doing is terrible, morally indefensible, and beyond any justification. It's also the case that settlers in the West Bank have clear religious motivations for settling there, and I think those motivations are entirely abhorrent. But in the case of Gaza, it's important to ask why Israel is enacting the blockade.
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Gaza was never historically part of Israel. The motivations for occupying Gaza are not religious, as they are in the West Bank. Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do. They don't know how else to prevent attacks from hostile militants.
I think it's important to recognize this as a step in figuring out how to effectively resist. BDS has not been effective. I think the reason it hasn't been effective, and would never have been effective, is because of a misleading analogy to South African apartheid. White South Africans benefited from apartheid. It was therefore possible to impose sanctions and change the incentives to make maintaining apartheid no longer beneficial.
Israel doesn't benefit from the blockade/occupation in Gaza, except to the extent that it kept them safe (which, as it turns out, it hasn't). They don't want Gaza back. They supply Gaza with water and electricity. Running this prison is expensive. But there is no amount of sanctions that would get them to lift the blockade, because they see doing so as suicide. Israel has done evil things. But they're not doing them for fun. That doesn't excuse it. But it does explain part of why the international backlash has been so ineffective, and in fact counterproductive, in changing the situation. There is very little difference, in the Israeli mindset, between telling Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow more materials for rockets and weaponry into Gaza, and telling them to roll over and die. They see the withdrawal from Gaza as a total failure, which immediately made their security situation worse, and which resulted in even more international condemnation. What they took from that is that they'll be condemned no matter what they do, so why bother caring what the world thinks. Which is why it all feels so hopeless. Israel will take becoming a pariah state over what they see as suicide. They will do anything they see as necessary to keep themselves alive. From their perspective, if there's no prison gang, then they don't need to keep running the prison.
I don't know how to get out of this. But I think, on a pragmatic level, any effective response has to recognize Israel's reasons for what it's doing, not to agree with them, but because to solve a problem you have to understand it.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
I want to try to express something very complex in a careful way. I don't think I can express it right, or avoid being misunderstood. But it's something I've been turning over and over in my head.
I think part of why people who are sympathetic to Palestinians still react very strongly to a lot of anti-Zionist rhetoric is because so much of it seems to assume that Israel's role in this situation is motivated by something like pure evil. What Israel is doing is terrible, morally indefensible, and beyond any justification. It's also the case that settlers in the West Bank have clear religious motivations for settling there, and I think those motivations are entirely abhorrent. But in the case of Gaza, it's important to ask why Israel is enacting the blockade.
Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Gaza was never historically part of Israel. The motivations for occupying Gaza are not religious, as they are in the West Bank. Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do. They don't know how else to prevent attacks from hostile militants.
I think it's important to recognize this as a step in figuring out how to effectively resist. BDS has not been effective. I think the reason it hasn't been effective, and would never have been effective, is because of a misleading analogy to South African apartheid. White South Africans benefited from apartheid. It was therefore possible to impose sanctions and change the incentives to make maintaining apartheid no longer beneficial.
Israel doesn't benefit from the blockade/occupation in Gaza, except to the extent that it kept them safe (which, as it turns out, it hasn't). They don't want Gaza back. They supply Gaza with water and electricity. Running this prison is expensive. But there is no amount of sanctions that would get them to lift the blockade, because they see doing so as suicide. Israel has done evil things. But they're not doing them for fun. That doesn't excuse it. But it does explain part of why the international backlash has been so ineffective, and in fact counterproductive, in changing the situation. There is very little difference, in the Israeli mindset, between telling Israel to lift the blockade, which would allow more materials for rockets and weaponry into Gaza, and telling them to roll over and die. They see the withdrawal from Gaza as a total failure, which immediately made their security situation worse, and which resulted in even more international condemnation. What they took from that is that they'll be condemned no matter what they do, so why bother caring what the world thinks. Which is why it all feels so hopeless. Israel will take becoming a pariah state over what they see as suicide. They will do anything they see as necessary to keep themselves alive. From their perspective, if there's no prison gang, then they don't need to keep running the prison.
I don't know how to get out of this. But I think, on a pragmatic level, any effective response has to recognize Israel's reasons for what it's doing, not to agree with them, but because to solve a problem you have to understand it.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [16 favorites]
Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do.
JFC. I just can't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
JFC. I just can't.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel is keeping Gaza in its current state, and I think pursuing its current path, because they don't know what else to do
They know exactly what they're doing? Netanyahu was pretty explicit about propping up Hamas as part of a divide and rule strategy to keep Gaza and the West Bank at odds and prevent any Palestinian unity or forward movement on statehood.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
They know exactly what they're doing? Netanyahu was pretty explicit about propping up Hamas as part of a divide and rule strategy to keep Gaza and the West Bank at odds and prevent any Palestinian unity or forward movement on statehood.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:34 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
cosmic owl, I took this as a good faith post and read it with open mind. I'm not certain I agree with you on why BDS hasn't forced a resolution, or whether the analogy between South Africa and Israel needs to be so precise for BDS to be relevant and potentially effective. I'll have to think and read up on this.
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations." Do you disagree? Disagree and have a better characterization than mine?
posted by kensington314 at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations." Do you disagree? Disagree and have a better characterization than mine?
posted by kensington314 at 12:39 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
"In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
posted by gwint at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
I phrased that poorly, and I deserve pushback on it. Netanyahu is a piece of shit and he and his government actively don't want peace with Palestinians. Lots of Israelis agree with him, for various reasons. As has been pointed out upthread, they also see a one-state solution which creates an Arab majority as suicide.
Lots of Israelis also don't agree with him, which is why there were five elections in less than four years. I'm trying to articulate the mindset among those Israelis that has led to the current situation where Netanyahu has been able to maintain a tenuous grip on power. I've watched more and more left-leaning Israelis entirely lose any hope for peace. Condemnation of Hamas is a sticking point for them, because for them Hamas is the whole reason for the blockade. Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Lots of Israelis also don't agree with him, which is why there were five elections in less than four years. I'm trying to articulate the mindset among those Israelis that has led to the current situation where Netanyahu has been able to maintain a tenuous grip on power. I've watched more and more left-leaning Israelis entirely lose any hope for peace. Condemnation of Hamas is a sticking point for them, because for them Hamas is the whole reason for the blockade. Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
On the "they don't know what else to do" question, I understand what you're saying, but I think a more comprehensive sentence would be "They don't know what else to do, because they have decided to abandon a resolution that gives Palestinians self-determination, and don't want to deal with difficult topics like right to return and reparations."
I'd like to thank cosmic owl for their post, mostly for putting something into clear language.. what seems so self-evident but gets lost in the back-and-forth. This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings. If I was born in Gaza I can imagine I'd be part of Hamas. If I was born in Israel I'd assuredly be part of the IDF. I don't see how Palestinians and Israelis (alone) can resolve this, not since the Oslo Accord failed. Nothing in the comments is particularly illuminative of a way forward, or if so I missed it. A good chunk of the comments in fact present the same handful of MeFites duking it out.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd like to thank cosmic owl for their post, mostly for putting something into clear language.. what seems so self-evident but gets lost in the back-and-forth. This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings. If I was born in Gaza I can imagine I'd be part of Hamas. If I was born in Israel I'd assuredly be part of the IDF. I don't see how Palestinians and Israelis (alone) can resolve this, not since the Oslo Accord failed. Nothing in the comments is particularly illuminative of a way forward, or if so I missed it. A good chunk of the comments in fact present the same handful of MeFites duking it out.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's starting to feel like a lot of people on this thread didn't check the news on Oct. 7th.
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links. We've got to be able to hold the complexity that there is a through-line of Palestinian hope for sovereignty and freedom across the displaced generations, that complex internal politics including the failure of Fatah led to the election of Hamas in 2006, that even in the 2006 election Palestinians supported a peace agreement with Israel, that there has been no election since, and that Hamas is unpopular in Gaza (which could change after the launch of this war, obviously).
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links. We've got to be able to hold the complexity that there is a through-line of Palestinian hope for sovereignty and freedom across the displaced generations, that complex internal politics including the failure of Fatah led to the election of Hamas in 2006, that even in the 2006 election Palestinians supported a peace agreement with Israel, that there has been no election since, and that Hamas is unpopular in Gaza (which could change after the launch of this war, obviously).
posted by kensington314 at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Again, I'm not defending anything. I do think its pretty much impossible to understate the impact the withdrawal and subsequent election of Hamas and immediate rocket attacks had for Israelis in terms of what they saw as viable paths to peace.
Appreciate your response, cosmic owl.
posted by kensington314 at 1:05 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Appreciate your response, cosmic owl.
posted by kensington314 at 1:05 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
This conflict spans generations and what I see are people behaving like human beings.
But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel's position of power and ability to inflict tremendous suffering on Palestinians is very actively supported by the US and to a lesser, but still very significant, degree by the UK, Canada, etc.
That's why it absolutely matters that we call out these genocidal actions for what they are. Changing public opinion in the US and other countries is absolutely crucial to ending the violence. Public opinion polls are already showing a significant shift in the US, with major differences between generations, but unfortunately the politicians have yet to catch up (lobbying is also unfortunately a major factor).
posted by ssg at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
But none of this happens in a vacuum. Israel's position of power and ability to inflict tremendous suffering on Palestinians is very actively supported by the US and to a lesser, but still very significant, degree by the UK, Canada, etc.
That's why it absolutely matters that we call out these genocidal actions for what they are. Changing public opinion in the US and other countries is absolutely crucial to ending the violence. Public opinion polls are already showing a significant shift in the US, with major differences between generations, but unfortunately the politicians have yet to catch up (lobbying is also unfortunately a major factor).
posted by ssg at 1:23 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
kensington314, I appreciate your desire to center the people of Gaza in this discussion, as they are the ones suffering the most at this moment. I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic" Throughout their history Jews have been turned on by their neighbors, forcibly exiled, and erased by genocidal tactics. All that is well known. So to bring up the idea that after the ruling institution of Gaza perpetrated the worst series of murders, rapes, infanticide, and kidnappings against Jews since the Holocaust, it was "deeply racist and Islamophobic" to even imagine the possibility that it could happen in a unified Palestine is incredibly offensive.
posted by gwint at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 1:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic"
Holy shit is that an incredible bad-faith reading that just completely ignores context.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Holy shit is that an incredible bad-faith reading that just completely ignores context.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:32 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
This was the full quote I was responding to: "In other words, they want freedom. And they want that freedom throughout their historic homeland, not just on the 22% that comprise the West Bank and Gaza Strip. . . . Most troubling for me, the belief that a “free Palestine” would necessarily lead to the mass annihilation of Jewish Israelis is rooted in deeply racist and Islamophobic assumptions about who the Palestinians are and what they want."
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th, I believe you can find that elsewhere online.
posted by gwint at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th, I believe you can find that elsewhere online.
posted by gwint at 1:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, yes, it is Islamophobic to believe that it's inevitable that a free Palestine would result in mass murder of Jewish Israelis. Is that not the rhetoric behind the treatment of Gazans to date?
posted by sagc at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 1:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Well, in that case, let me set your mind at ease, because thanks to climate change, within half a century the whole region will probably be unihabitable to humans anyway.
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2023
People would rather not deal with difficult problems. We either ignore it till it's too late or try to kill our way out of the problem.
posted by clandestiny's child at 1:49 PM on October 30, 2023
If you need more information for what happened on Oct. 7th
I stand by my statement that your comment is an incredibly bad-faith argument. What happened on October 7th was an atrocity, but it also didn't happen in a vacuum, not when the IDF has been doing things like this, not when settlers have been assaulting villages in the West Bank with impunity and IDF protection. I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I stand by my statement that your comment is an incredibly bad-faith argument. What happened on October 7th was an atrocity, but it also didn't happen in a vacuum, not when the IDF has been doing things like this, not when settlers have been assaulting villages in the West Bank with impunity and IDF protection. I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I was specifically responding to the idea posited in this thread that Jews being concerned about the possibility of their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
I get it. I will say that as someone whose primary political focus related to I/P has always been for Palestinian liberation, the massacre on October 7 and the renewed global focus on the I/P status quo has sparked for me a lot of thinking, reading, and IRL discussion on the need for a Jewish homeland and how that asserted need is responsive to the Jewish experience of violent and existential-threat-level anti-semitism across time. Two-thirds of Jewish people in Europe were killed in the Holocaust and anti-semitism is flourishing across the globe today, it's not like there's any place for most Israelis to live other than Israel, which is their home. So an idea I did not intend to posit was that Jewish concern about their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
But that phrase, "deeply racist and Islamophobic" came from a link I brought here, so let me excerpt it (apologies, I can't figure out how to HTML indent a passage):
In other words, after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.
That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes.
To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose.
That’s why, despite the occasional bout of overheated rhetoric from some leaders, there was no official Palestinian position calling for the forced removal of Jews from Palestine. This continued to be their position despite an Israeli media campaign following the 1967 war that claimed Palestinians wished to “throw Jews into the sea.”
The full link is worth reading, and it does discuss the way the phrase has been repurposed by Hamas--I don't think the link I posted leaves the phrase "from the river to the sea" without problems, you can see that even in the excerpt above, I think. But the article seeks to create a broader understanding of a slogan that pre-dates Hamas, that will post-date Hamas however/whenever their rule of Gaza ends, and which speaks to the goal of Palestinian self-determination, which we should all support. The slogan isn't going away, and it doesn't necessarily refer to "mass annihilation" when people of good faith use it.
I'll also add from the article: And notwithstanding the extreme rhetoric of some leaders on both sides, a recent joint poll shows that only a small minority of Palestinians see “expulsion” as a solution to the conflict – 15% — which is incidentally the same percentage of Israelis who view this as the only solution.
The phrase as discussed in the article is about a desire for full citizenship for Palestinians in their homeland. That raises the thorny question of a single state, or two states, or how a state could ever come into existence, and as has been discussed throughout this thread and the previous, Israel and the U.S. have abandoned any serious consideration of these things.
posted by kensington314 at 1:59 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
I get it. I will say that as someone whose primary political focus related to I/P has always been for Palestinian liberation, the massacre on October 7 and the renewed global focus on the I/P status quo has sparked for me a lot of thinking, reading, and IRL discussion on the need for a Jewish homeland and how that asserted need is responsive to the Jewish experience of violent and existential-threat-level anti-semitism across time. Two-thirds of Jewish people in Europe were killed in the Holocaust and anti-semitism is flourishing across the globe today, it's not like there's any place for most Israelis to live other than Israel, which is their home. So an idea I did not intend to posit was that Jewish concern about their mass annihilation was "deeply racist and Islamophobic."
But that phrase, "deeply racist and Islamophobic" came from a link I brought here, so let me excerpt it (apologies, I can't figure out how to HTML indent a passage):
In other words, after 1948, Palestinians were not able to live with full freedom and dignity anywhere in their homeland.
That’s how the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea” gained traction in the 1960s. It was part of a larger call to see a secular democratic state established in all of historic Palestine. Palestinians hoped their state would be free from oppression of all sorts, from Israeli as well as from Arab regimes.
To be sure, a lot of Palestinians thought that in a single democratic state, many Jewish Israelis would voluntarily leave, like the French settlers in Algeria did when that country gained its independence from the French. Their belief stemmed from the anti-colonial context in which the Palestinian liberation movement arose.
That’s why, despite the occasional bout of overheated rhetoric from some leaders, there was no official Palestinian position calling for the forced removal of Jews from Palestine. This continued to be their position despite an Israeli media campaign following the 1967 war that claimed Palestinians wished to “throw Jews into the sea.”
The full link is worth reading, and it does discuss the way the phrase has been repurposed by Hamas--I don't think the link I posted leaves the phrase "from the river to the sea" without problems, you can see that even in the excerpt above, I think. But the article seeks to create a broader understanding of a slogan that pre-dates Hamas, that will post-date Hamas however/whenever their rule of Gaza ends, and which speaks to the goal of Palestinian self-determination, which we should all support. The slogan isn't going away, and it doesn't necessarily refer to "mass annihilation" when people of good faith use it.
I'll also add from the article: And notwithstanding the extreme rhetoric of some leaders on both sides, a recent joint poll shows that only a small minority of Palestinians see “expulsion” as a solution to the conflict – 15% — which is incidentally the same percentage of Israelis who view this as the only solution.
The phrase as discussed in the article is about a desire for full citizenship for Palestinians in their homeland. That raises the thorny question of a single state, or two states, or how a state could ever come into existence, and as has been discussed throughout this thread and the previous, Israel and the U.S. have abandoned any serious consideration of these things.
posted by kensington314 at 1:59 PM on October 30, 2023 [9 favorites]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
No. That's not what it means.
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
posted by jb at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2023
No. That's not what it means.
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
posted by jb at 2:02 PM on October 30, 2023
I'm frankly appalled by the number of people who care deeply about the sufferings of Jewish Israelis and not at all about the sufferings of Palestinians.
Wow, talk about bad faith. The first sentence of my comment literally talked about centering the suffering of Gazans.
kensington314, thanks very much for your followup. I know for a lot of Jews it is hard to distinguish "from the river to the sea" from the infamous throw Jews into the sea phrase, that as you quoted, has been used for propaganda purposes as well. I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many. And again, my comments are not meant to take away from witnessing the suffering of those in Gaza. My hope is that recognizing the fears and the aspirations of both parties in a conflict can foster greater understanding and ultimately, somehow, peace.
posted by gwint at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Wow, talk about bad faith. The first sentence of my comment literally talked about centering the suffering of Gazans.
kensington314, thanks very much for your followup. I know for a lot of Jews it is hard to distinguish "from the river to the sea" from the infamous throw Jews into the sea phrase, that as you quoted, has been used for propaganda purposes as well. I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many. And again, my comments are not meant to take away from witnessing the suffering of those in Gaza. My hope is that recognizing the fears and the aspirations of both parties in a conflict can foster greater understanding and ultimately, somehow, peace.
posted by gwint at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think we're agreed that after the Oct. 7 massacre, it is harder for Israelis to imagine "from the river to the sea" as a message of peace, even if that is what is intended by many.
I'm certain that must be true.
posted by kensington314 at 2:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm certain that must be true.
posted by kensington314 at 2:27 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Last time I checked, it's not the speakers' intentions that matter, but the impact of the words - and it is not up to the speaker to judge the impact.
You mean like Netanyahu explicitly calling for genocide by calling Palestinians "Amalek"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
You mean like Netanyahu explicitly calling for genocide by calling Palestinians "Amalek"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
The ANSWER Coalition and many other orgs are organizing a march on Washington this Saturday Nov 4: Join us at Freedom Plaza in Washington, D.C. on Saturday, November 4 at 2pm to demand: End the Siege of Gaza! End all U.S. aid to Israel! Free Palestine!
Buses and carpools are coming from all over the country; more are being added each day.
Legal Resources for Activists Advocating for Palestine Across the U.S. from Palestine Legal
Jewish Voice for Peace: Actions and templates for contacting Biden, reps, etc. to demand a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Buses and carpools are coming from all over the country; more are being added each day.
Legal Resources for Activists Advocating for Palestine Across the U.S. from Palestine Legal
Jewish Voice for Peace: Actions and templates for contacting Biden, reps, etc. to demand a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 2:33 PM on October 30, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ppl r gonna say this is "defending Hamas".
Posted by JimBennett at 10:58 AM
Already happened on the first thread.
I linked the new charter, thank God they left out the Lions and rotary club as fronts for, for....not sure none the less it's a brand change, and update of modified rhetoric.
like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Here's a few strings to pull.
'Ropes of Sand' is a good read but as I said, by conveying Boland, I believe this event is Outside History. For example, the lens of religiosity is more secular; humanitarian, political.
posted by clavdivs at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023
Posted by JimBennett at 10:58 AM
Already happened on the first thread.
I linked the new charter, thank God they left out the Lions and rotary club as fronts for, for....not sure none the less it's a brand change, and update of modified rhetoric.
like the CIA- funding fundamentalism2fight vs socialists of the Arab Revolution
Here's a few strings to pull.
'Ropes of Sand' is a good read but as I said, by conveying Boland, I believe this event is Outside History. For example, the lens of religiosity is more secular; humanitarian, political.
posted by clavdivs at 2:40 PM on October 30, 2023
I don't think accusing others of bad faith arguments adds anything to the conversation here. There are a variety of viewpoints here, drawn from different experiences and different cultural contexts. There are people on this site who are mourning the death of family, friends and colleagues both Israeli and Palestinian. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't slept much since October 7th and I'm doing my best to process a lot of feelings. Let's all try to take it easy on each other.
posted by interogative mood at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 2:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [14 favorites]
The Foreign Policy link kensington314 posted a few comments above, What Palestinians Really Think of Hamas, is worth a read, with lots of specific data from the well-respected Arab Barometer polling group (also posted in the previous thread). Here's an archive version, including a corrective to some of the distorted versions of recent history that have been promoted above:
Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014. In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Hamas won 44.5 percent of the Palestinian vote in parliamentary elections in 2006, but support for the group plummeted after a military conflict between Hamas and Fatah in June 2007 ended in Hamas’s takeover of Gaza. In a poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research in December 2007, just 24 percent of Gazans expressed favorable attitudes toward Hamas. Over the next few years, as Israel tightened its blockade of Gaza and ordinary Gazans felt the effects, approval of Hamas increased, reaching about 40 percent in 2010. Israel partially eased the blockade the same year, and Hamas’s support in Gaza leveled off before declining to 35 percent in 2014. In periods when Israel cracks down on Gaza, Hamas’s hardline ideology seems to hold greater appeal for Gazans. Thus, rather than moving the Israelis and Palestinians toward a peaceful solution, Israeli policies that inflict pain on Gaza in the name of rooting out Hamas are likely to perpetuate the cycle of violence.
posted by mediareport at 2:45 PM on October 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
More from that link, which really would advance this discussion if more Mefites read it:
The results of the Arab Barometer survey paint a bleak picture of Gaza in the days before the October 7 attacks. The Hamas government, unable to address citizens’ vital concerns, had lost the public’s confidence. Few Gazans supported Hamas’s goal of destroying the state of Israel, which left Gaza’s leaders and its population divided over the future direction of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The vast majority of Gazans strongly favored a peaceful solution, and they yearned for leaders who could both deliver such a solution and improve Gazans’ overall quality of life. So far, however, the policies of their own government and of the Israeli government have prevented progress on both fronts...
In terms of attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, support for the two-state solution in the West Bank was slightly lower than in Gaza (49 percent versus 54 percent), and opposition to Arab-Israeli normalization was slightly higher. Only five percent of respondents in the West Bank approved of the regional rapprochement, compared with 10 percent of Gazans. Although the differences were small, these relatively hardened attitudes in the West Bank were likely a result of tensions between Palestinians and Israeli settlers and soldiers in recent months. The survey’s finding that roughly half of Palestinians still support the two-state solution may offer some hope for peace in the long term, but the results do not inspire much confidence in short-term stability. The deep unpopularity of Palestinian leadership, in the West Bank in particular, calls into question the feasibility of reestablishing the Palestinian Authority’s control over Gaza, which some media outlets have suggested as the next step in reconstruction after Israel’s military campaign against Hamas is complete.
posted by mediareport at 2:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The results of the Arab Barometer survey paint a bleak picture of Gaza in the days before the October 7 attacks. The Hamas government, unable to address citizens’ vital concerns, had lost the public’s confidence. Few Gazans supported Hamas’s goal of destroying the state of Israel, which left Gaza’s leaders and its population divided over the future direction of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The vast majority of Gazans strongly favored a peaceful solution, and they yearned for leaders who could both deliver such a solution and improve Gazans’ overall quality of life. So far, however, the policies of their own government and of the Israeli government have prevented progress on both fronts...
In terms of attitudes toward the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, support for the two-state solution in the West Bank was slightly lower than in Gaza (49 percent versus 54 percent), and opposition to Arab-Israeli normalization was slightly higher. Only five percent of respondents in the West Bank approved of the regional rapprochement, compared with 10 percent of Gazans. Although the differences were small, these relatively hardened attitudes in the West Bank were likely a result of tensions between Palestinians and Israeli settlers and soldiers in recent months. The survey’s finding that roughly half of Palestinians still support the two-state solution may offer some hope for peace in the long term, but the results do not inspire much confidence in short-term stability. The deep unpopularity of Palestinian leadership, in the West Bank in particular, calls into question the feasibility of reestablishing the Palestinian Authority’s control over Gaza, which some media outlets have suggested as the next step in reconstruction after Israel’s military campaign against Hamas is complete.
posted by mediareport at 2:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
cosmic owl I don't think anyone believes Israel is motivated by pure evil, people rarely are. But Israel IS strongly motivated by a refusal to consider options for long term peace that would include the Palestinians as equals either in their own nation or in Israel.
You describe the Israeli position very well, I think you've got it more or less stated in such a way that most Israelis would agree. But again, that's only a hopeless situation with no way out as long as you look at it from the POV that there can be no solution which includes Palestinains as equal partners.
I'm not sure how that sort of solution would work, and I'm not going to pretend it would be easy. But I do argue that Israel is not as limited in its possible actions as it seems to believe it is, and as many people here and elsewhere seem to believe it is.
I may very well be completely wrong, I'm certainly not here with a workable plan that will win me the Nobel Peace Prize. But I do think the idea that Israel is stuck with no options except eternal rockets from Hamas or genocide.
I believe that many, possibly most, Israelis DO think that. As you note, polling even among left leaning Israelis has shown a drastic shift towards thinking there is no non-genocidal resolution.
And I am certain that the israeli government will take one of the various paths towards genocide, the only real question is how vicious and brutal the approach will be and how total the destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza will be. Will it mostly be eviction or death, will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
But I swear that's not the only path available, it's just the only one that the govenrment of Israel is willing to consider. All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
You describe the Israeli position very well, I think you've got it more or less stated in such a way that most Israelis would agree. But again, that's only a hopeless situation with no way out as long as you look at it from the POV that there can be no solution which includes Palestinains as equal partners.
I'm not sure how that sort of solution would work, and I'm not going to pretend it would be easy. But I do argue that Israel is not as limited in its possible actions as it seems to believe it is, and as many people here and elsewhere seem to believe it is.
I may very well be completely wrong, I'm certainly not here with a workable plan that will win me the Nobel Peace Prize. But I do think the idea that Israel is stuck with no options except eternal rockets from Hamas or genocide.
I believe that many, possibly most, Israelis DO think that. As you note, polling even among left leaning Israelis has shown a drastic shift towards thinking there is no non-genocidal resolution.
And I am certain that the israeli government will take one of the various paths towards genocide, the only real question is how vicious and brutal the approach will be and how total the destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza will be. Will it mostly be eviction or death, will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
But I swear that's not the only path available, it's just the only one that the govenrment of Israel is willing to consider. All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
posted by sotonohito at 3:07 PM on October 30, 2023 [8 favorites]
Mediareport, I did check out the link and wondered if you know if there's more information on the breakdown of the question regarding two state solution vs. other options?
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2023
posted by Selena777 at 3:39 PM on October 30, 2023
It's certainly the case that the set of possible solutions is larger than the set of solutions Israelis would be willing to accept. A one-state solution is pretty much off the table. There is a fundamental tension between Israel as a democracy and Israel as a Jewish state. I posted earlier in the thread about Arab Israelis, and I think I was too rosy there, which I regret — first, about how much integration there is, and second, about the extent to which a minority can possibly be equal citizens when it is imperative to the state they are citizens of that they remain a minority.
The only shred of hope I have for Israel and Palestine at all is the possibility of removing Netanyahu and the religious hardliners in his government. Netanyahu does not have a secure hold on power. Yesh Atid came somewhat close to forming a government and least included a halt to settlements and the resumption of peace talks in its platform. (I say included because everything is uncertain now.) But Israel has its own separate demographic problem, because the birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox is much higher than among the secular-to-Modern Orthodox population. This is a problem for a lot of reasons (it's not good for the economy or for IDF enrollment), but politically it almost ensures a continued rightward trend. Zionists constantly repeat the refrain that there is no partner for peace. That has been more true and less true over time, and Netanyahu has certainly worked to ensure it is the case. As long as he's in power the Palestinians have no partner for peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The only shred of hope I have for Israel and Palestine at all is the possibility of removing Netanyahu and the religious hardliners in his government. Netanyahu does not have a secure hold on power. Yesh Atid came somewhat close to forming a government and least included a halt to settlements and the resumption of peace talks in its platform. (I say included because everything is uncertain now.) But Israel has its own separate demographic problem, because the birth rate among the ultra-Orthodox is much higher than among the secular-to-Modern Orthodox population. This is a problem for a lot of reasons (it's not good for the economy or for IDF enrollment), but politically it almost ensures a continued rightward trend. Zionists constantly repeat the refrain that there is no partner for peace. That has been more true and less true over time, and Netanyahu has certainly worked to ensure it is the case. As long as he's in power the Palestinians have no partner for peace.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:35 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I did check out the link and wondered if you know if there's more information on the breakdown of the question regarding two state solution vs. other options?
There is indeed! In the previous thread, after Nancy Lebovitz posted the Foreign Policy article, snuffleupagus posted a link to the Palestinian Center for Survey Research, which was part of the poll group. There's a *ton* of detail about the survey, which was conducted in December 2022, at that page. In that thread, I pulled out a few sections I thought were interesting, but admit I still have to get through the whole survey report (I will soon):
Findings show a slight drop in support among the Palestinians from 27% to 26% in 2022 (compared to 42% in mid-2018). But the drop in support among Israeli Jews is higher, from 36% to 31% during the same period (compared to 45% in mid-2018). But support for this permanent peace agreement package among Israeli Arabs rebounded significantly from a low point of 49% two years ago to 62% today. In total, 37% of Israelis support the detailed agreement.
[...] The peace package comprises: a de-militarized Palestinian state, an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange, family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty, Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic, the bilateral agreement will be part of a larger peace agreement with all Arab states, the US and major Arab countries will ensure full implementation of the agreement by both sides, and the end of the conflict and claims. Fifty four percent of all Israelis (62% of Israeli Jews) and 72% of Palestinians are opposed to this two-state comprehensive package.
That the 2-state solution proposed in the survey *starts with* "a de-militarized Palestinian state" seems to be already quite a concession on the Palestinian side, given Israel's massive advantage in arms. That the 2-state solution still got almost 1/3 of Palestinians in favor seems worth noting.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
There is indeed! In the previous thread, after Nancy Lebovitz posted the Foreign Policy article, snuffleupagus posted a link to the Palestinian Center for Survey Research, which was part of the poll group. There's a *ton* of detail about the survey, which was conducted in December 2022, at that page. In that thread, I pulled out a few sections I thought were interesting, but admit I still have to get through the whole survey report (I will soon):
Findings show a slight drop in support among the Palestinians from 27% to 26% in 2022 (compared to 42% in mid-2018). But the drop in support among Israeli Jews is higher, from 36% to 31% during the same period (compared to 45% in mid-2018). But support for this permanent peace agreement package among Israeli Arabs rebounded significantly from a low point of 49% two years ago to 62% today. In total, 37% of Israelis support the detailed agreement.
[...] The peace package comprises: a de-militarized Palestinian state, an Israeli withdrawal to the Green Line with equal territorial exchange, family unification in Israel of 100,000 Palestinian refugees, West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, the Jewish Quarter and the Western Wall under Israeli sovereignty and the Muslim and Christian quarters and the al Haram al Sharif/Temple Mount under Palestinian sovereignty, Israeli and the future state of Palestine will be democratic, the bilateral agreement will be part of a larger peace agreement with all Arab states, the US and major Arab countries will ensure full implementation of the agreement by both sides, and the end of the conflict and claims. Fifty four percent of all Israelis (62% of Israeli Jews) and 72% of Palestinians are opposed to this two-state comprehensive package.
That the 2-state solution proposed in the survey *starts with* "a de-militarized Palestinian state" seems to be already quite a concession on the Palestinian side, given Israel's massive advantage in arms. That the 2-state solution still got almost 1/3 of Palestinians in favor seems worth noting.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Hamas releases video of Israeli hostages in Gaza demanding Netanyahu agree to prisoner swap
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:56 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:56 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
When Hamas says from the river to the sea, they mean to slaughter all the Israelis.
Huh. I guess that means the Likud party meant to slaughter all Palestinians when it started its 1977 party platform with the following as its first sentence:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer? I certainly remember hearing it in my Reform synagogue's Hebrew School in the early 70s and elsewhere (UCI camp in Zionsville Indiana, anyone?).
But don't take my word for it. From an op-ed in Ha'aretz on December 16, 2018: Hamas Owes Its 'Palestine From the River to the Sea' Slogan to Zionism (archive):
The irony is that it wasn’t the Palestinians, but the Zionists, who first invented this "from the river to the sea" mantra. And that was nearly half a century before the First Intifada and the birth of Hamas...In other words, the Zionists demanded not only a Palestine stretching "from the river to the sea," but also one that would include both banks of the Jordan River, which they claimed was a fair representation of historic and biblical Eretz Israel.
When shortly after the British Mandate drew an imperial line along the Jordan River separating Palestine from Transjordan, the Zionist Organization was compelled to narrow down its imagined boundaries to "west of the river, east of the sea."
...In a nutshell, the notion of "Palestine from the river to the sea" is nothing but the boundaries of Eretz Israel as imagined by the first Zionists...One can thus entertain the chilling irony that Hamas owes its cherished slogan to the Zionists. After all, what is "free Palestine from the river to the sea" but a utopian parody of "Greater Israel"?
posted by mediareport at 5:09 PM on October 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
Huh. I guess that means the Likud party meant to slaughter all Palestinians when it started its 1977 party platform with the following as its first sentence:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer? I certainly remember hearing it in my Reform synagogue's Hebrew School in the early 70s and elsewhere (UCI camp in Zionsville Indiana, anyone?).
But don't take my word for it. From an op-ed in Ha'aretz on December 16, 2018: Hamas Owes Its 'Palestine From the River to the Sea' Slogan to Zionism (archive):
The irony is that it wasn’t the Palestinians, but the Zionists, who first invented this "from the river to the sea" mantra. And that was nearly half a century before the First Intifada and the birth of Hamas...In other words, the Zionists demanded not only a Palestine stretching "from the river to the sea," but also one that would include both banks of the Jordan River, which they claimed was a fair representation of historic and biblical Eretz Israel.
When shortly after the British Mandate drew an imperial line along the Jordan River separating Palestine from Transjordan, the Zionist Organization was compelled to narrow down its imagined boundaries to "west of the river, east of the sea."
...In a nutshell, the notion of "Palestine from the river to the sea" is nothing but the boundaries of Eretz Israel as imagined by the first Zionists...One can thus entertain the chilling irony that Hamas owes its cherished slogan to the Zionists. After all, what is "free Palestine from the river to the sea" but a utopian parody of "Greater Israel"?
posted by mediareport at 5:09 PM on October 30, 2023 [17 favorites]
will it be death by bombs and guns or death by starvation and thirst? Those are the questions we will see answered soon.
post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
perhaps but I think jacen is onto the right way and force can be used. United States has two carrier groups in position. commander-in-chief of the armed Forces president United States could make phone call. president may decide to confer with the United Nations and separately with other nations to send a small flotilla with a list of what would 3 million people need clothing, food, water, engineers, construction crews, power plants.... but we're going to go ahead and start sending things over there anyways
and we hope that our airlifts won't be impeded. Also inform Israel that we pretty much know what they know militarily and pretty much on the intelligence scale, our tax dollars have made sure of that then I'd ask anybody in the International community if they have a problem with that. Bibi has already isolated his country, I'm beginning to think he will do anything to stay out of jail.
Operation: Freindly Giant.
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
All other paths are deemed not merely impossible, but non-existant. The govenrment of Israel doesn't even see them and reject them, it is so devoted to subjugation that it can't even concieve of a different approach.
perhaps but I think jacen is onto the right way and force can be used. United States has two carrier groups in position. commander-in-chief of the armed Forces president United States could make phone call. president may decide to confer with the United Nations and separately with other nations to send a small flotilla with a list of what would 3 million people need clothing, food, water, engineers, construction crews, power plants.... but we're going to go ahead and start sending things over there anyways
and we hope that our airlifts won't be impeded. Also inform Israel that we pretty much know what they know militarily and pretty much on the intelligence scale, our tax dollars have made sure of that then I'd ask anybody in the International community if they have a problem with that. Bibi has already isolated his country, I'm beginning to think he will do anything to stay out of jail.
Operation: Freindly Giant.
posted by clavdivs at 5:11 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
If someone from Hamas says the phrase, I agree that their meaning and intention is a terrible one. That doesn't change the broader interpretation in the two links
I think one thing some folks aren't necessarily grappling with is that it doesn't take a majority, or even a big minority, of Palestinians to present a deadly threat to Jews in a hypothetical future non-Israeli state. ISIL was not a huge faction as a percentage of the population in Syria and Iraq but they caused horrific destruction to the population.
So it's obviously not inevitable that Jews in a Palestinian state would be in grave danger. But it is reasonable to think that they would be in a state where Hamas is still a viable entity. Any path to a one state solution has to go through either the destruction or marginalization of Hamas, just as it requires the marginalization of extreme Zionism.
posted by Justinian at 5:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think one thing some folks aren't necessarily grappling with is that it doesn't take a majority, or even a big minority, of Palestinians to present a deadly threat to Jews in a hypothetical future non-Israeli state. ISIL was not a huge faction as a percentage of the population in Syria and Iraq but they caused horrific destruction to the population.
So it's obviously not inevitable that Jews in a Palestinian state would be in grave danger. But it is reasonable to think that they would be in a state where Hamas is still a viable entity. Any path to a one state solution has to go through either the destruction or marginalization of Hamas, just as it requires the marginalization of extreme Zionism.
posted by Justinian at 5:19 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
As evidence, the most hardline Zionists aren't a majority in Israel either and yet look at how Palestinians are being treated! "Most XXXX don't believe Y" doesn't mean Y isn't a realistic threat, either to Israelis or Palestinians for different values of Y.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 5:20 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree with former Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert, Justinian, in this interview linked and quoted in the previous thread:
At 21:30, the host asks if the 2-state concept is finished, and Olmert laughs and says "No. No. Look. There is no other solution."
It has to be a 2-state solution. Which means Israeli government officials willing to take the risk that racist right-wing fundamentalist terrorists will try to assassinate them just like they did Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, four months after this happened:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
posted by mediareport at 5:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
At 21:30, the host asks if the 2-state concept is finished, and Olmert laughs and says "No. No. Look. There is no other solution."
It has to be a 2-state solution. Which means Israeli government officials willing to take the risk that racist right-wing fundamentalist terrorists will try to assassinate them just like they did Yitzhak Rabin in November 1995, four months after this happened:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
posted by mediareport at 5:31 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
*laughs* Am I seriously the only Jew on this site who remembers that "from the river to the sea" has been a Zionist framing for over half a century, and probably longer?
Is this not common knowledge? You don't have to be a Jew to know this, certainly.
posted by ssg at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
Is this not common knowledge? You don't have to be a Jew to know this, certainly.
posted by ssg at 5:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought it was such common knowledge that my initial thought upon hearing it was "Palestinians are reclaiming the phrase from the Zionists, interesting." But that knowledge seems to be absent in almost all of the current furious discourse about the phrase. "IT'S A CALL FOR GENOCIDE!" is getting lots of traction, while "It's a Zionist phrase that's been around forever' isn't, at least as far as I've seen.
posted by mediareport at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 5:57 PM on October 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, good luck finding those officials in Netanyahu's crew. But a 2-state solution is indeed what we must be pushing for. Hard. Now.
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
posted by Justinian at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2023
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
posted by Justinian at 6:05 PM on October 30, 2023
I agree entirely, I just wish I was more optimistic about it happening.
Maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I feel like the current horribleness at least is showing people that the other options are all failing, so maybe more people will come around to the reality of the need for a more just two-state outcome.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'm foolishly optimistic, but I feel like the current horribleness at least is showing people that the other options are all failing, so maybe more people will come around to the reality of the need for a more just two-state outcome.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:48 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The war is a high risk of spreading. If we can mostly keep it contained to Israel / Palestine and Israel can complete the main ground operation quickly then Biden and other leaders are going to need to get the PA and Israel to come to the two state deal. If fear the war will spread and instead of thousands, civilian deaths will get into the hundreds of thousands, maybe millions.
posted by interogative mood at 7:08 PM on October 30, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 7:08 PM on October 30, 2023
The war is a high risk of spreading.
Netanyahu could reduce that risk significantly by stopping the bombing, calling off the ground invasion, and focusing on getting the hostages back.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
Netanyahu could reduce that risk significantly by stopping the bombing, calling off the ground invasion, and focusing on getting the hostages back.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Financial Times Editorial Board has called for a ceasefire. Unless I've missed something, this is the first major English-language media outlet to do so.
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 7:26 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Israel withdraws diplomats from Turkey
Turkey is a longstanding member of NATO. It's really impossible to overstate what a disaster this is for the US and the Biden administration in particular.
1) Since 2022 the Biden admin has been working to strengthen NATO against Russia. This pretty much undoes all of those efforts and progress. Meanwhile Ukraine is bascially forgotten after its failed summer offensive.
2) Since Trump's idiotic decision to pull out of the Iran deal, US Middle East policy has basically been centered around isolating Iran and its allies (including Hamas) by promoting normalization between Israel and other Arab and Muslim states in the region. That effort has now collapsed.
3) Since the Obama administration, the US has been trying to disengage from the Middle East to free up resources for countering China's percieved amibitions up to and including trying to invade Tawain. Everything from the TPP to the IRA to the Chips act has been part of efforts to prepare for this conflict. The Israel-Hamas war guarnteese that US will need to devote significant military, diplomatic, and financial resources to the region for years to come.
4) The war also pits significant elements of Biden's base against each other. On the one side there are significant Muslim committees in electorally important states like Michigan along with younger voters who are significantly more likely to be sympathetic to Palestinians while on the other side there are older voters and wealthy Democratic party donors who are more likely to be sympathetic to Israel. I don't envy Biden because he's basically in a no win situation on this point; although, some more nuance would be beneficial from leading Demomcrats, for both their own sake and everyone elses.
5) Number 4 just increases the chance that the most incompentant and thuggish members of the American elite - the Republicans - will gain power in 2024. Compared to 2016 and even 2000, they'd face an infinetly more dangerous international environment with a much weakened American position compared to other actors. Hence, their inevitable screw ups would have potentials for harm to America and the world exceeding even that of the diastrous Iraq War.
posted by eagles123 at 7:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
Turkey is a longstanding member of NATO. It's really impossible to overstate what a disaster this is for the US and the Biden administration in particular.
1) Since 2022 the Biden admin has been working to strengthen NATO against Russia. This pretty much undoes all of those efforts and progress. Meanwhile Ukraine is bascially forgotten after its failed summer offensive.
2) Since Trump's idiotic decision to pull out of the Iran deal, US Middle East policy has basically been centered around isolating Iran and its allies (including Hamas) by promoting normalization between Israel and other Arab and Muslim states in the region. That effort has now collapsed.
3) Since the Obama administration, the US has been trying to disengage from the Middle East to free up resources for countering China's percieved amibitions up to and including trying to invade Tawain. Everything from the TPP to the IRA to the Chips act has been part of efforts to prepare for this conflict. The Israel-Hamas war guarnteese that US will need to devote significant military, diplomatic, and financial resources to the region for years to come.
4) The war also pits significant elements of Biden's base against each other. On the one side there are significant Muslim committees in electorally important states like Michigan along with younger voters who are significantly more likely to be sympathetic to Palestinians while on the other side there are older voters and wealthy Democratic party donors who are more likely to be sympathetic to Israel. I don't envy Biden because he's basically in a no win situation on this point; although, some more nuance would be beneficial from leading Demomcrats, for both their own sake and everyone elses.
5) Number 4 just increases the chance that the most incompentant and thuggish members of the American elite - the Republicans - will gain power in 2024. Compared to 2016 and even 2000, they'd face an infinetly more dangerous international environment with a much weakened American position compared to other actors. Hence, their inevitable screw ups would have potentials for harm to America and the world exceeding even that of the diastrous Iraq War.
posted by eagles123 at 7:50 PM on October 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you get a paywall when you open the Financial Times editorial, google "The catastrophe unfolding in Gaza" (with or without quotation marks) to read it for free. The Financial Times' editorial board makes a case that's hard to challenge, and the editorial is well worth reading.
posted by virago at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by virago at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
also on the FT: Netanyahu lobbied EU to pressure Egypt into accepting Gaza refugees (ungated)
Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu sought to convince European leaders to put pressure on Egypt into accepting refugees from Gaza, according to people briefed on the discussions.posted by BungaDunga at 8:43 PM on October 30, 2023
The idea, which he put forward in meetings with European officials last week, was floated by countries including the Czech Republic and Austria in private discussions that led up to a summit of EU leaders on Thursday and Friday, those people told the Financial Times.
The war is a high risk of spreading.
Israel's Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, was certainly trying to drum up a broader war at this afternoon's Security Council meeting. His speech starts about 3:29:30 into the stream for the 9462nd meeting this afternoon.
A few choice bits that I can't hear as anything but warmongering towards Iran include:
posted by bcd at 9:02 PM on October 30, 2023
Israel's Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, was certainly trying to drum up a broader war at this afternoon's Security Council meeting. His speech starts about 3:29:30 into the stream for the 9462nd meeting this afternoon.
A few choice bits that I can't hear as anything but warmongering towards Iran include:
Yet Ismail Haniyeh, the leader of Hamas, is no Adolf Hitler. He is not the Fuhrer. He is not the leader of this genocidal death cult, hell-bent on world domination. That role, dear colleagues, and you know it very well, is held by the supreme leader of Iran, the bloodthirsty Ayatollah Khamenei.There's a lot of other content. Midway between those two quotes was this piece:
Hitler's Third Reich was envisioned to be a thousand-year empire stretching across continents, just as Khamenei envisions his radical Shiite hegemony to stretch across the region and beyond. The Ayatollah regime is the modern Nazi regime. And their death squads include Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Houthis, the Revolutionary Guard, and other savage jihadists. Instead of shouting, "Sieg Heil", these radical Nazi Islamists scream, "Death to Israel", "Death to America", "Death to England". You could see it on Khamenei's Twitter account.
...
In the days leading up to and following the October 7th massacre, Simchat Torah massacre, the Fuhrer Khamenei continued to spread his poisonous genocidal ideologies with the world. He tweeted about the end of Israel. He said that whoever normalizes relations with Israel would lose. He claimed that Israel is dying. And on the day of the massacre, he called for the eradication of Israel alongside a video of Israelis running for their lives as his Hamas Einsatzgruppen mowed them down with machine guns.
Just like my grandparents and the grandparents of millions of Jews, from now on, my team and I will wear yellow stars. We will wear this star until you condemn the atrocities of Hamas and demand the immediate release of our hostages. We walk with a yellow star as a symbol of pride, a reminder that we swore to fight back, to defend ourselves.After which they stood and affixed yellow stars to their jackets. Not being Jewish, I don't feel I have the right to comment on that one.
posted by bcd at 9:02 PM on October 30, 2023
Netenyahu and his hard right pals have apparently been kicking around the idea of expelling all the Palestinians from Gaza into Sinai according to this leaked document.
posted by interogative mood at 9:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 9:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I saw a long, interesting thread from a human rights activist a few days ago that argued there's no way Sisi would accept that, and argued as well that Biden even suggesting it was on the table for Egypt in itself seriously damaged the U.S.-Egypt relationship - asking Sisi to agree to slit his own throat. Here's a mid-thread tweet from that part of the discussion (also mirrored on Nitter.net so you can follow along without having to visit Twitter). A sampling:
Here's the thing - Egypt would *never* accept this, as a matter of geopolitical imperative. If 2 million Palestinians are displaced into Sinai, it could be fatal to Sisi's regime (not exaggerating when I say the regime could fall). And it won't even stop Hamas
Hamas already has ~2500 smuggling tunnels across the Gaza-Egypt border + ties with smugglers in Sinai. If Sinai becomes the new Gaza, Hamas will just start to rebuild on the Egyptian side where they'd also have the advantage of a recruiting pool of millions of angry Egyptians...
Jordan too would *never* allow it. In Jordan the fear is that if population transfer happens in Gaza then the West Bank is next. Historical note: Jordan saw a 10-month civil war in the 1970s when Palestinian militants stationed themselves there to fight Israel
The whole thread is worth a look.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Here's the thing - Egypt would *never* accept this, as a matter of geopolitical imperative. If 2 million Palestinians are displaced into Sinai, it could be fatal to Sisi's regime (not exaggerating when I say the regime could fall). And it won't even stop Hamas
Hamas already has ~2500 smuggling tunnels across the Gaza-Egypt border + ties with smugglers in Sinai. If Sinai becomes the new Gaza, Hamas will just start to rebuild on the Egyptian side where they'd also have the advantage of a recruiting pool of millions of angry Egyptians...
Jordan too would *never* allow it. In Jordan the fear is that if population transfer happens in Gaza then the West Bank is next. Historical note: Jordan saw a 10-month civil war in the 1970s when Palestinian militants stationed themselves there to fight Israel
The whole thread is worth a look.
posted by mediareport at 9:36 PM on October 30, 2023 [11 favorites]
Lest there be any doubt, like most of his population I think Khamenei is a bad guy. He has certainly been funding Hamas. But, that said, a hot war between Israel and Iran would be catastrophicly bad for everyone.
posted by bcd at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 9:49 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is pretty obvious why Netanyahu is so keen to see the Gazans cross an international border. Fuck that.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:04 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Meatbomb at 10:04 PM on October 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
It is just such a dumb and awful idea. At least some
Israeli journalists and human rights activists were brace enough to expose this dumbfuckery. Netanyahu will not be able to solve this crisis, he is just too much like Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld after 9-11. The whole country is pulling together and they decide to jam through doing Gulf War 2, start torturing people in Gitmo and all the other dumb shit that did not make us safer.
posted by interogative mood at 10:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israeli journalists and human rights activists were brace enough to expose this dumbfuckery. Netanyahu will not be able to solve this crisis, he is just too much like Rove, Wolfowitz, Cheney and Rumsfeld after 9-11. The whole country is pulling together and they decide to jam through doing Gulf War 2, start torturing people in Gitmo and all the other dumb shit that did not make us safer.
posted by interogative mood at 10:28 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lest there be any doubt, like most of his population I think Khamenei is a bad guy. He has certainly been funding Hamas.
I heard a Netanyahu staffer from Israel talk on the BBC about Hamas terrorists and Hamas animals and this and that, but not once, not a single time did I hear her admit that her boss paid Hamas to keep Palestinians imprisoned, divided, and powerless. Not once did I hear her admit that Hamas was able to commit acts of murder because it was given political and logistical power by her boss. Just once, I would love to hear from Israeli right-wing extremists that they are partially responsible for the deaths of their fellow citizens, by their own actions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I heard a Netanyahu staffer from Israel talk on the BBC about Hamas terrorists and Hamas animals and this and that, but not once, not a single time did I hear her admit that her boss paid Hamas to keep Palestinians imprisoned, divided, and powerless. Not once did I hear her admit that Hamas was able to commit acts of murder because it was given political and logistical power by her boss. Just once, I would love to hear from Israeli right-wing extremists that they are partially responsible for the deaths of their fellow citizens, by their own actions.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:20 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
First hostage rescued in Gaza (The Guardian) - Ori Megidish, aged 19, who was serving as a lookout observer in the IDF.
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I'm honestly surprised at the news. In the 2016 offensive into Lebanon (Wiki) to rescue the 2 hostages that Hezbollah captured, the Israeli army suffered 121 deaths and 1,244 wounded and ultimately failed to rescue the hostages.
A ceasefire was called to halt the operation - UNSCR 1701. Israel would halt their ground operation and Hezbollah would be disarmed by the Lebanese government with the help of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). Lebanon and Hezbollah signed the resolution and pressured Israel to sign it as well.
In the days following the ceasefire on Aug 14 2006, Hezbollah launched dozens of rockets and mortars at Israeli positions inside southern Lebanon, which Israel did not respond to. The withdrawal would be competed by Oct 1 2006.
Within a year both Lebanon and UNIFIL declared that they would not disarm Hezbollah, in violation of UNSCR 1701. Hezbollah declared their operation a one-sided victory.
To me, it's understandable why Israel has zero interest in participating in any ceasefire stopping them from achieving their objectives, nor any trust in their neighbours or the UN.
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I'm honestly surprised at the news. In the 2016 offensive into Lebanon (Wiki) to rescue the 2 hostages that Hezbollah captured, the Israeli army suffered 121 deaths and 1,244 wounded and ultimately failed to rescue the hostages.
A ceasefire was called to halt the operation - UNSCR 1701. Israel would halt their ground operation and Hezbollah would be disarmed by the Lebanese government with the help of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL). Lebanon and Hezbollah signed the resolution and pressured Israel to sign it as well.
In the days following the ceasefire on Aug 14 2006, Hezbollah launched dozens of rockets and mortars at Israeli positions inside southern Lebanon, which Israel did not respond to. The withdrawal would be competed by Oct 1 2006.
Within a year both Lebanon and UNIFIL declared that they would not disarm Hezbollah, in violation of UNSCR 1701. Hezbollah declared their operation a one-sided victory.
To me, it's understandable why Israel has zero interest in participating in any ceasefire stopping them from achieving their objectives, nor any trust in their neighbours or the UN.
posted by xdvesper at 3:18 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
After which they stood and affixed yellow stars to their jackets. Not being Jewish, I don't feel I have the right to comment on that one.
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
posted by dusty potato at 5:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
posted by dusty potato at 5:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Here are some actions folks in the US can take today to advocate for a ceasefire and end to the occupation:
-Call your reps at every level. Here's a script for federal reps and an app that will place the calls and connect you one after another. Here's another script w/ other materials. Here's a script for demanding an end to US military aid to Israel.
-Find out if you have a nearby SJP chapter and ask them what they need. Note that many students who are members of SJP are being doxxed, harassed, and threatened. If you're an alum of an institution with an SJP chapter, contact your alma mater to let them know you support SJP and expect the university to protect students from harassment and retaliation.
-Make plans to go to DC this weekend for the march, or help others get there. Check with local organizers from JVP, MECA, and other groups to find out if there are local actions in your district this week in the lead-up to the DC march.
-More templates for contacting your reps, organizing within your friend/family network, and joining protests nationwide. There's also a tool for finding out how much your community is contributing to funding the genocide.
Free ebook: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights by Omar Barghouti. Resources from Palestine Legal on the right to boycott.
posted by ohneat at 5:26 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
-Call your reps at every level. Here's a script for federal reps and an app that will place the calls and connect you one after another. Here's another script w/ other materials. Here's a script for demanding an end to US military aid to Israel.
-Find out if you have a nearby SJP chapter and ask them what they need. Note that many students who are members of SJP are being doxxed, harassed, and threatened. If you're an alum of an institution with an SJP chapter, contact your alma mater to let them know you support SJP and expect the university to protect students from harassment and retaliation.
-Make plans to go to DC this weekend for the march, or help others get there. Check with local organizers from JVP, MECA, and other groups to find out if there are local actions in your district this week in the lead-up to the DC march.
-More templates for contacting your reps, organizing within your friend/family network, and joining protests nationwide. There's also a tool for finding out how much your community is contributing to funding the genocide.
Free ebook: Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights by Omar Barghouti. Resources from Palestine Legal on the right to boycott.
posted by ohneat at 5:26 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
This will certainly increase domestic pressure to intensify the pace of airstrikes and ground offensive to rescue the remaining 200+ hostages.
I mean, four hostages were released through negotiations via Qatar, which eventually negotiated for all hostages to be released in exchange for all Palestinian prisoners being released, and the families of the hostages supported this deal. And yet it still didn't happen. This Twitter thread explains who those Palestinian prisoners are, and the system of "justice." It's pretty grim. Anyway, if I was a family member of a hostage, I can't imagine how angry I'd be that Netanyahu didn't take the deal.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I mean, four hostages were released through negotiations via Qatar, which eventually negotiated for all hostages to be released in exchange for all Palestinian prisoners being released, and the families of the hostages supported this deal. And yet it still didn't happen. This Twitter thread explains who those Palestinian prisoners are, and the system of "justice." It's pretty grim. Anyway, if I was a family member of a hostage, I can't imagine how angry I'd be that Netanyahu didn't take the deal.
posted by coffeecat at 5:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Besides calling reps and writing into the NYTimes editorial board to call for a ceasefire, do people have other ideas? Does it make sense to email people in the State Department, and who? Other worthwhile people/institutions to put pressure on?
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 AM on October 31, 2023
posted by coffeecat at 5:34 AM on October 31, 2023
Make sure you have protected employment if you go public with anything. You will be harassed, doxxed, fired, for speaking out against Israeli violence, esp. if you are Arab/Muslim.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm Jewish and I will comment. This desecration of our ancestors carries so much pain and anger for me. How do Zionists not feel deep shame over this? Someday, maybe, they'll look in the mirror and realize they tried to turn our deepest tragedy as a people into a cheap, violent joke, but it will be too late. Shame on you.
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
It is cruel, at a time when there is a worrying depletion of knowledge about the Holocaust, to witness Holocaust memory being applied as a double-edged sword. What should be a universalist set of lessons applied to atrocities everywhere is being warped to validate violent, ethnonationalist objectives. As the hundreds of Jewish demonstrators and allies who filled the U.S. Capitol last week to protest the Gaza war stressed, “never again means never again for anyone.”posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 5:43 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Indeed, if the legacy of the Holocaust is interpreted to present Israel with carte blanche to cage, bomb, starve, dehydrate, and otherwise exert necropolitical power over the 2.3 million Palestinians in Gaza — almost half of them children — then “never again” does not merely ring hollow. It becomes a call for unchecked violence, a war cry in an eliminationist campaign of retaliation.
This “Holocaustization” of what is happening in Israel-Palestine deposits all of us — Jews, Palestinians, those in the region and in the diaspora — on a dangerous precipice. To operate within that framework, according to its internal logic, is to condemn us to a zero-sum war whose terms are clear and devastating: a conflict that can only ever be resolved by the annihilation of one side or the other. It is a recipe for perpetual bloodshed — an exhortation, in the words of Netanyahu, to “live forever by the sword.”
Save the Children international: 3,195 children killed in #Gaza in just three weeks has surpassed the annual number of children killed across the world's conflict zones since 2019. We are calling for an immediate ceasefire.
I never want to hear anything about proportionality. I never want to hear about Israeli 'restraint'. I never want to hear about double standards. Let that fact simmer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I never want to hear anything about proportionality. I never want to hear about Israeli 'restraint'. I never want to hear about double standards. Let that fact simmer.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
And yet it still didn't happen.
My reading of the situation is that there's very little appetite for or likelihood of any prisoner exchanges.
Yahya Sinwar (Wiki) was one of the prisoners exchanged for Gilead Shalit in 2011. He was serving multiple life terms (Washington Post) for his role as the mastermind in the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers. In 2008 while in prison in Israel he was operated on to remove a tumor in his brain to save his life. After being exchanged in 2011, he was elected as leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in 2017, and undoubtedly played a major role in planning and coordinating the Oct 7 attacks. He is currently the 2nd most senior person in the Hamas organization and was designated a terrorist by the United States in 2015.
posted by xdvesper at 5:47 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
My reading of the situation is that there's very little appetite for or likelihood of any prisoner exchanges.
Yahya Sinwar (Wiki) was one of the prisoners exchanged for Gilead Shalit in 2011. He was serving multiple life terms (Washington Post) for his role as the mastermind in the abduction and killing of two Israeli soldiers. In 2008 while in prison in Israel he was operated on to remove a tumor in his brain to save his life. After being exchanged in 2011, he was elected as leader of Hamas in the Gaza Strip in 2017, and undoubtedly played a major role in planning and coordinating the Oct 7 attacks. He is currently the 2nd most senior person in the Hamas organization and was designated a terrorist by the United States in 2015.
posted by xdvesper at 5:47 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Whilest the majority of msm has eyes are on Gaza, the UN says as many as 120 Palestinians killed in West Bank since October 7th
Channel 4 news. Matt Frei
posted by adamvasco at 5:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Channel 4 news. Matt Frei
posted by adamvasco at 5:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
mediareport, thank you for sharing that thread. Israel's response is a catastrophe in every respect.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:14 AM on October 31, 2023
posted by cosmic owl at 6:14 AM on October 31, 2023
I'll add that the Twitter account that wrote that thread mediareport linked to (İyad el-Baghdadi), is one I've been following and he's been consistently informative/insightful since 10/7 - I had linked to one of his thread in the previous post on I/P. Anyway, if you're looking for accounts to follow, I recommend him.
posted by coffeecat at 6:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 6:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
By chance I was looking around on Youtube for anthropology-related lectures/podcasts (any topic), when I recognized the name of the anthropologist introducing this talk at UC Irvine from Oct. 18: The Israel-Hamas War. It turned out to be a general background talk by a political scientist, but the Q&A goes further. The speaker also gave this talk back in 2021: Israel, Hamas, and the Gaza Complex--again mostly a historical summary. I'm not sure what sources he's following, but his Youtube channel has daily updates on the news--it seems like he's summarizing dozens of news sources at a fast pace in 10-12 minutes a day.
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Wobbuffet at 7:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
At this point, I don't really see anything changing the course of events in Gaza. While I am sure there IS a path out that isn't genocidal, I don't know what exactly it might be and it would take a staggeringly charismatic and world class orator to convince the powers involved to even try. And such a person doesn't seem to exist at the pressent moment in history.
More relevant to Israel's future actions, everyone knows that "never again" has been a filthy lie since the moment it was first uttered. The international community has witnessed dozens of post-Holocaust genocides and counting by the most generous possible standards, has actually attempted to intervene and prevent three or four. And no nation that committed genocide post-Holocaust has ever faced any real penalties from the international community. Trade always normalizes after a short time, if it is interrupted at all, and in a few years no one ever talks about it again.
I don't, really, think Netanyahu wants to commit genocide. But I do think he doens't see an alternative. And I think that like me, he's certain if he does commit genocide it won't have any real impact on Israel's international positon, trade, aid, and so on. A few hippies will complain, everyone else will carry on as normal, same as has happened with every other genocide since 1945.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
More relevant to Israel's future actions, everyone knows that "never again" has been a filthy lie since the moment it was first uttered. The international community has witnessed dozens of post-Holocaust genocides and counting by the most generous possible standards, has actually attempted to intervene and prevent three or four. And no nation that committed genocide post-Holocaust has ever faced any real penalties from the international community. Trade always normalizes after a short time, if it is interrupted at all, and in a few years no one ever talks about it again.
I don't, really, think Netanyahu wants to commit genocide. But I do think he doens't see an alternative. And I think that like me, he's certain if he does commit genocide it won't have any real impact on Israel's international positon, trade, aid, and so on. A few hippies will complain, everyone else will carry on as normal, same as has happened with every other genocide since 1945.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Natasha Roth-Rowland: When ‘never again’ becomes a war cry
I can't help reading this and thinking of this piece of Israeli society that I just got linked to (an ongoing problem, and this is one of the more recent articles)One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say: Yet among Israel’s estimated 165,000 survivors, roughly one in three lives in poverty, according to a survivors’ advocacy group. Though survivors receive government stipends, many still depend on food donations organized by Israeli charities like Chasdei Naomi.
“The ones who really need to be responsible for taking care of Holocaust survivors is the state of Israel. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist,” said Tshuva Cabra, the group’s head of donations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I can't help reading this and thinking of this piece of Israeli society that I just got linked to (an ongoing problem, and this is one of the more recent articles)One-third of Israeli Holocaust survivors live in poverty, advocates say: Yet among Israel’s estimated 165,000 survivors, roughly one in three lives in poverty, according to a survivors’ advocacy group. Though survivors receive government stipends, many still depend on food donations organized by Israeli charities like Chasdei Naomi.
“The ones who really need to be responsible for taking care of Holocaust survivors is the state of Israel. Unfortunately, that doesn’t exist,” said Tshuva Cabra, the group’s head of donations.
posted by cendawanita at 7:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Besides calling reps and writing into the NYTimes editorial board to call for a ceasefire, do people have other ideas?
-Contact your state/local Democratic Party to let them know this is a critical issue for you
-Find out whether your state or city has passed or is considering antiBDS legislation and advocate against it
-Find out which orgs in your area advocate for the Palestinian diaspora and find out what they need to help Palestinians in your town or state
-Join a local public meeting or write a letter to the editor voicing your opinion
-Start a reading and action group with your friends that focuses on Palestinian authors (discuss the book and eg write letters to your reps)
-Speak at your house of worship about the ongoing genocide and what action you believe your faith demands of you in this moment
-Organize. Organize. Organize. The resistance and solidarity and power we’re seeing now across the globe is possible because people have been organizing for Palestinian liberation for years, even when it didn’t dominate the news. Get involved; build community. It has value beyond the immediate demand for a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
-Contact your state/local Democratic Party to let them know this is a critical issue for you
-Find out whether your state or city has passed or is considering antiBDS legislation and advocate against it
-Find out which orgs in your area advocate for the Palestinian diaspora and find out what they need to help Palestinians in your town or state
-Join a local public meeting or write a letter to the editor voicing your opinion
-Start a reading and action group with your friends that focuses on Palestinian authors (discuss the book and eg write letters to your reps)
-Speak at your house of worship about the ongoing genocide and what action you believe your faith demands of you in this moment
-Organize. Organize. Organize. The resistance and solidarity and power we’re seeing now across the globe is possible because people have been organizing for Palestinian liberation for years, even when it didn’t dominate the news. Get involved; build community. It has value beyond the immediate demand for a ceasefire.
posted by ohneat at 8:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Proportionality has nothing to do with war. As if there is something moral in the notion of one side kills a thousand people, so the other side can kill a thousand people. How many Americans died at Pearl Harbor and in the Japanese invasion of the Philippines? How many Japanese children did America kill during WW2?
Hamas is the government of Gaza, they declared war on Israel. Israel has answered. It is horrible, awful and terrible. There should be a ceasefire and negotiations; but it isn’t going to happen because Hamas has used every prior ceasefire as an opportunity to rearm and reload and Netanyahu isn’t going to negotiate in good faith even if something changed. Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
So there will still he war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness. The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
posted by interogative mood at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas is the government of Gaza, they declared war on Israel. Israel has answered. It is horrible, awful and terrible. There should be a ceasefire and negotiations; but it isn’t going to happen because Hamas has used every prior ceasefire as an opportunity to rearm and reload and Netanyahu isn’t going to negotiate in good faith even if something changed. Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
So there will still he war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness. The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
posted by interogative mood at 8:24 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Aw shucks, thats too bad!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
So there will still be war in all its disproportional, unfair awfulness.
Got that, thanks.
What is the intended aim of the war? What comes after? Any thoughts as to how to prevent future conflict? "Eliminate Hamas" seems kind of non-specific, as obvious as it might be.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:39 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Got that, thanks.
What is the intended aim of the war? What comes after? Any thoughts as to how to prevent future conflict? "Eliminate Hamas" seems kind of non-specific, as obvious as it might be.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:39 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel just carpet bombed the Jabalia refugee camp. Reports are in that the casualties are from 100-500 people killed. The images are horrific. They dropped six bombs, all made in the US.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over. That’s what Japan did, that’s what the Germans did. If Hamas cares about Palestinians they need to end their war.
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Israel can stop at any time too.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
They dropped six bombs, all made in the US.
And the UK. Palestine Action have occupied and shut down the headquarters and factories of Elbit Systems, the largest weapons supplier to Israel in both the US and the UK. I hope these actions continue as people wake up to what's happening on their doorsteps.
posted by fight or flight at 8:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
And the UK. Palestine Action have occupied and shut down the headquarters and factories of Elbit Systems, the largest weapons supplier to Israel in both the US and the UK. I hope these actions continue as people wake up to what's happening on their doorsteps.
posted by fight or flight at 8:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Video showing the aftermath of the bombing, houses shown as reference for the size of the crater one of these bombs made:
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jabalia Massacre |Trigger warning: people carrying dead/seriously wounded children in their arms.
“We have never encountered bodies so extensively burned & fragmented; even their bones were burned. 6 tons of explosives were thrown at an entire bloc”
Ahmed Kahlout, heading Palestinian rescue teams in northern Gaza about the massacre a while ago
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
First hostage rescued in Gaza (The Guardian) - Ori Megidish, aged 19, who was serving as a lookout observer in the IDF.
This is maybe a minor point, but it is a problem that Palestinians held in Israel are called prisoners and Israelis held in Gaza are called hostages. Civilians are hostages, military personnel are prisoners of war. Both sides hold some of each.
posted by ssg at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is maybe a minor point, but it is a problem that Palestinians held in Israel are called prisoners and Israelis held in Gaza are called hostages. Civilians are hostages, military personnel are prisoners of war. Both sides hold some of each.
posted by ssg at 8:50 AM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Belgian MP claiming: "Belgian transport unions refuse to load and unload weapons going to Israel (both via ports and airports) and call for an immediate ceasefire." This is the way.
posted by kmt at 8:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by kmt at 8:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
If proportionality is out & brushed under "war is awful"... Why should we care about October 7th? Sounds like it equally justifies anything Hamas does or might desire to do.
I heartily disagree with this stance, but without prioritizing one set of lives over another for amoral reasons I can't think of a reason to apply this unevenly.
posted by CrystalDave at 8:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I heartily disagree with this stance, but without prioritizing one set of lives over another for amoral reasons I can't think of a reason to apply this unevenly.
posted by CrystalDave at 8:53 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1719381315688997334
Times of Gaza reporting 400+ killed. FWIW this crater looks MUCH larger than the the hospital bombing, and there's no ambiguity about who dropped the bomb.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on October 31, 2023
Times of Gaza reporting 400+ killed. FWIW this crater looks MUCH larger than the the hospital bombing, and there's no ambiguity about who dropped the bomb.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on October 31, 2023
Israel needs to remove Netanyahu; but Hamas isn’t going away.
That sounds like a problem for Israelis to solve, if they really have a democracy and are not the dictatorship they appear to be devolving to.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
That sounds like a problem for Israelis to solve, if they really have a democracy and are not the dictatorship they appear to be devolving to.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Netanyahu and Gallant need to step down immediately. Whoever gave this order.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:01 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over.
I spent most of my adult life being broadly supportive of Israel and... no, I don't believe that. Not for an instant. Netanyahu wants genocide.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I spent most of my adult life being broadly supportive of Israel and... no, I don't believe that. Not for an instant. Netanyahu wants genocide.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
good god.
and good luck to anyone trying to do theodicy today cause let me tell you you've got an even tougher job than usual.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
and good luck to anyone trying to do theodicy today cause let me tell you you've got an even tougher job than usual.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:07 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Among the many tragic events: there was a Palestinian family in Gaza who had learned Hebrew and who ran radio station broadcasting news of Gaza in Hebrew. Their hope was it would encourage mutual understanding. An IDF bomb killed the whole family. I'm afraid I don't have a link - my source is a private FB page of a professor who works on I/P.
posted by coffeecat at 9:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 9:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Netanyahu wants genocide.
There is also good reason to suspect he wants a long protracted war. A poll I saw awhile ago was that while a majority of Israelis thought he should step down, a majority also thought he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:11 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
There is also good reason to suspect he wants a long protracted war. A poll I saw awhile ago was that while a majority of Israelis thought he should step down, a majority also thought he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
posted by coffeecat at 9:11 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed. We understand this is a complex and difficult discussion where people have different stakes and involvement with it, but antisemitism, and discriminating comments will not be tolerated. Please refer to the Content Policy.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 9:13 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
he shouldn't resign until after the conflict concludes.
Which he made some initial conciliatory noises about, and then immediately reversed. It's been my sense the whole time that he hopes a more isolated, militarized and reactionary Israel is the way he cements the judicial 'reforms,' which in turn are how he permanently escapes his corruption scandals and cements his hold on power.
He's Israel's Trump. He already should be in jail, not in power.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Which he made some initial conciliatory noises about, and then immediately reversed. It's been my sense the whole time that he hopes a more isolated, militarized and reactionary Israel is the way he cements the judicial 'reforms,' which in turn are how he permanently escapes his corruption scandals and cements his hold on power.
He's Israel's Trump. He already should be in jail, not in power.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:28 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Respectfully, I'd just like to add a few links to the conversation.
Not long after the first Hamas attacks, a Jewish Columbia student was assaulted on campus.
In a protest in Australia, crowds shouted “gas the Jews” and Jewish people were warned to stay away from the Opera House
In Tunisia, a historic Synagogue in Tunisia was burned and ransacked, and a historic Jewish tomb was defiled
A Jewish protester at Tulane was attacked with a flagpole and two others were assaulted.
At protests in Italy, masses sang “Open the borders so we can kill the Jews”
In Paris – a Jewish family’s door was set on fire because it had a mezuzah on the doorframe
Jewish schools and homes are being vandalized in Toronto
In Berlin, Molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Message boards at Cornell called for people to slit Jewish people's throats and rape them.
In Dagestan, a lynch mob stormed a hotel and the airport looking for Jews - it was not "just a demonstration."
Anti-semitic incidents have risen exponentially around the world, and are up 400% in the US.
The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
Here’s a both-sides article, because violent Islamophobia is also on the rise and I’m not trying to play oppression Olympics – there’s already enough of that here in the other direction.
I intentionally chose only non-Israeli and non-Jewish sources, so as not to invite the ‘Israelis / Jews are lying liars’ responses to every attack so far (not directly quoting anyone here, just paraphrasing what’s happening pretty much everywhere when attacks on Jews are reported).
This thread is appalling.
posted by Mchelly at 9:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Not long after the first Hamas attacks, a Jewish Columbia student was assaulted on campus.
In a protest in Australia, crowds shouted “gas the Jews” and Jewish people were warned to stay away from the Opera House
In Tunisia, a historic Synagogue in Tunisia was burned and ransacked, and a historic Jewish tomb was defiled
A Jewish protester at Tulane was attacked with a flagpole and two others were assaulted.
At protests in Italy, masses sang “Open the borders so we can kill the Jews”
In Paris – a Jewish family’s door was set on fire because it had a mezuzah on the doorframe
Jewish schools and homes are being vandalized in Toronto
In Berlin, Molotov cocktails were thrown at a synagogue
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Message boards at Cornell called for people to slit Jewish people's throats and rape them.
In Dagestan, a lynch mob stormed a hotel and the airport looking for Jews - it was not "just a demonstration."
Anti-semitic incidents have risen exponentially around the world, and are up 400% in the US.
The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
Here’s a both-sides article, because violent Islamophobia is also on the rise and I’m not trying to play oppression Olympics – there’s already enough of that here in the other direction.
I intentionally chose only non-Israeli and non-Jewish sources, so as not to invite the ‘Israelis / Jews are lying liars’ responses to every attack so far (not directly quoting anyone here, just paraphrasing what’s happening pretty much everywhere when attacks on Jews are reported).
This thread is appalling.
posted by Mchelly at 9:49 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
> [The bombardment is] The result of a fantastical cult, determined to make that war and controlling an urban area of 2 million people and a willingness to martyr every one of the civilians under its control.
I believe this falls under the previously used and deeply unserious "Orientalist infantalization of Hamas"
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:52 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I believe this falls under the previously used and deeply unserious "Orientalist infantalization of Hamas"
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:52 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
This thread is appalling.
excuse me??????
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
excuse me??????
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
how could this thread not be appalling? the events that have sparked this thread are appalling. your comment comes across as a denouncement of the thread, I can't imagine anyone agreeing with every comment and there are comments I'd strongly disagree with, but some people are posting links to informative sources for those who wish to be aware of the appalling things in some fashion. the alternative is to not care and be uninformed, or worse: pick a side and add to the fire.
what would you like to happen? this is what we have, this is who we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
how could this thread not be appalling? the events that have sparked this thread are appalling. your comment comes across as a denouncement of the thread, I can't imagine anyone agreeing with every comment and there are comments I'd strongly disagree with, but some people are posting links to informative sources for those who wish to be aware of the appalling things in some fashion. the alternative is to not care and be uninformed, or worse: pick a side and add to the fire.
what would you like to happen? this is what we have, this is who we are.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:58 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
FWIW the Ministry of Health seems to be saying 50+ killed at the refugee camp, not 500+. Still awful but maybe a translation issue again as CNN is quoting the hospital there as saying hundreds of dead and wounded. As I said, it would still be awful at that number of killed but in the interest of accuracy.
posted by Justinian at 10:02 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 10:02 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mchelly, I appreciate your links and the appreciate the reason I believe you compiled them. It is important to remember that there are victims on all sides of this conflict, including those who are far removed from the bombardment on the ground itself.
It is also important to remember that there are 8,525 dead Palestinians as of accurate counts this morning, and that half of them are children, and that there is no end to the siege in sight.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
It is also important to remember that there are 8,525 dead Palestinians as of accurate counts this morning, and that half of them are children, and that there is no end to the siege in sight.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
Thanks for the links about that part of the story, Mchelly. I think most of us in the thread are trying to respond in good faith to a lot of horrifying things that are happening very quickly to a lot of innocent people.
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 10:04 AM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
I'm not sure what to say--I'm opposed to anti-semitism and I understand there to be a very scary rise in anti-semitism across the globe over the last several years. Most of the accounts you link are matters for serious law enforcement in . . . nine(?) . . . different countries. To the extent that the governments of those countries are opting not to enforce the law--or are actively encouraging anti-semitism--I am opposed to them, owing to my opposition to anti-semitism.
A comment was deleted and there's an implication that someone did lob some anti-semitism around here, so I can't speak for that deleted comment. But beyond that it would be helpful to actually quote the anti-semitism you see here so that people can see it and flag it. Most of what I've read in this post is people freaking out about the deaths of innocent Palestinians--cherishing Arab life. We should cherish Arab life as we cherish our own lives.
posted by kensington314 at 10:08 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm not sure what to say--I'm opposed to anti-semitism and I understand there to be a very scary rise in anti-semitism across the globe over the last several years. Most of the accounts you link are matters for serious law enforcement in . . . nine(?) . . . different countries. To the extent that the governments of those countries are opting not to enforce the law--or are actively encouraging anti-semitism--I am opposed to them, owing to my opposition to anti-semitism.
A comment was deleted and there's an implication that someone did lob some anti-semitism around here, so I can't speak for that deleted comment. But beyond that it would be helpful to actually quote the anti-semitism you see here so that people can see it and flag it. Most of what I've read in this post is people freaking out about the deaths of innocent Palestinians--cherishing Arab life. We should cherish Arab life as we cherish our own lives.
posted by kensington314 at 10:08 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
I believe it was Dave Chappelle who said that if you go to a barbecue and someone starts burning a cross, and you stay, you can’t really say you’re not a Nazi. But hey, keep carrying that torch, guys.
This thread is appalling.
oh, look who brought a wet blanket
you know what i think? i think all those who try to justify the acts of psychopathic leaders on both sides by historical, cultural and religious arguments rehashed for the nth time, are PART OF THE PROBLEM and continue to guarantee this tragedy will go on
and as they say here in the midwest, every time you point a finger, you have 3 pointing right back at you
the only thing truly appalling about these threads, aside from the reports of various horrors, is the willingness of people to score points for their side in an endless shitstorm of controversy
they are PART OF THE PROBLEM
this is not about the links you posted or your concern about the events described but the sheer bloodymindedness that made you tar us all with the brush of attending a so called nazi barbecue with burning crosses
wasn't that the kkk?
if you really think this is a nazi barbecue, why are you here?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
This thread is appalling.
oh, look who brought a wet blanket
you know what i think? i think all those who try to justify the acts of psychopathic leaders on both sides by historical, cultural and religious arguments rehashed for the nth time, are PART OF THE PROBLEM and continue to guarantee this tragedy will go on
and as they say here in the midwest, every time you point a finger, you have 3 pointing right back at you
the only thing truly appalling about these threads, aside from the reports of various horrors, is the willingness of people to score points for their side in an endless shitstorm of controversy
they are PART OF THE PROBLEM
this is not about the links you posted or your concern about the events described but the sheer bloodymindedness that made you tar us all with the brush of attending a so called nazi barbecue with burning crosses
wasn't that the kkk?
if you really think this is a nazi barbecue, why are you here?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:09 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
start of comment: Respectfully...
end of comment: [implication that we're all torch-carrying Nazis]
posted by sagc at 10:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
end of comment: [implication that we're all torch-carrying Nazis]
posted by sagc at 10:12 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
There’s a genocide of Palestine happening,, an open, blatant genocide.
My god have you no shame.
posted by Yowser at 10:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
My god have you no shame.
posted by Yowser at 10:16 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
As a Jewish person, I think it's deeply narcissistic to center some scattered antisemitic incidents (same as it ever was, unfortunately) while the people of Gaza are being literally leveled by bombs. Get a grip. It's honestly pathetic, a shonda.
posted by dusty potato at 10:17 AM on October 31, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:17 AM on October 31, 2023 [21 favorites]
the idea that zionism is judaism and judaism zionism is roughly equivalent to the idea that hinduism is hindutva and hindutva is hinduism, except three quarters of the whole world wants to murder jews and so people on
(っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ ¯`·.¸¸.-> °º 🎀 𝒷𝑜𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 º° >-.¸¸.·`¯ ♥
are invested in drawing the false equivalence.
anyway i'm gonna get off the Internet and go fail to do some theodicy because today's a great day for that, yes indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
(っ◔◡◔)っ ♥ ¯`·.¸¸.-> °º 🎀 𝒷𝑜𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 º° >-.¸¸.·`¯ ♥
are invested in drawing the false equivalence.
anyway i'm gonna get off the Internet and go fail to do some theodicy because today's a great day for that, yes indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:23 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
What is the barbecue where Nazis have turned up in this analogy - sympathy for Palestinians? Criticism of Israel? We can't object to a campaign of bombing an area dense with civilians because some awful people do awful things, and might also purport to do horrible things?
Why are the antisemites the cross burners at a Pro-Palestinian barbecue, but settler violence is not cross burning at a pro-Israel barbecue? There's awful people on both "sides" - does that make it morally problematic to want an end to the killing? Are both "sides" in this conflict irredeemable? If not, then why just one?
posted by Dysk at 10:25 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Why are the antisemites the cross burners at a Pro-Palestinian barbecue, but settler violence is not cross burning at a pro-Israel barbecue? There's awful people on both "sides" - does that make it morally problematic to want an end to the killing? Are both "sides" in this conflict irredeemable? If not, then why just one?
posted by Dysk at 10:25 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
count me as someone who wants the "you're a nazi" comment to stay up. really i'd be middle-key annoyed if it were removed even though i think i'm one of the people at whom it was targeted.
okay now i'll get off the Internet
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
okay now i'll get off the Internet
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Mod note: Another comment deleted, please, Be considerate and respectful and avoid comparing other people here to Nazis
posted by loup (staff) at 10:56 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by loup (staff) at 10:56 AM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like the comment calling us all torch-carrying attendees of a cross burning is maybe not a great comment the leave up? I assumed that was the one which was deleted, but apparently that doesn't count enough as "calling people Nazis"?
Seems like a clear attempt to shut down discussion of human rights abuses via wildly unsupported comparisons, at least. If nothing else, anyone calling this thread "appalling" should probably be required to, like, support that contention, rather than allowed to drop some trolling in the thread and then run off.
posted by sagc at 11:19 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Seems like a clear attempt to shut down discussion of human rights abuses via wildly unsupported comparisons, at least. If nothing else, anyone calling this thread "appalling" should probably be required to, like, support that contention, rather than allowed to drop some trolling in the thread and then run off.
posted by sagc at 11:19 AM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I assumed that was the one which was deleted, but apparently that doesn't count enough as "calling people Nazis"?
As far as I can tell, there were no comments deleted that called anyone a nazi. The only comment calling us nazis was from mchelly, and that is still up. The comment that I saw that was deleted was mine, where I said it was pretty fucked up to leave a comment about calling people nazis up.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
As far as I can tell, there were no comments deleted that called anyone a nazi. The only comment calling us nazis was from mchelly, and that is still up. The comment that I saw that was deleted was mine, where I said it was pretty fucked up to leave a comment about calling people nazis up.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
All these responses to Mchelly are part of the reason why I/P threads go wrong on MetaFilter all the time. The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding". You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews. Or the way the Turks tried to eliminate the Armenians. Or the Serbs tried to eliminate the Croats. Or the way the Hutus tried to eliminate the Tutsis.
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust. Can you comprehend what it means for a child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors to know those statistics intimately, and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it? When MeFites -- who are so hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda -- uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel and brush off how that rhetoric strengthens anti-Semitism?
Is it possible for mods to ask that the same dozen or so people who've been commenting 10 or 20 times in this thread to take a day off? Maybe let this thread be something other than their Two Minutes Hate?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding". You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews. Or the way the Turks tried to eliminate the Armenians. Or the Serbs tried to eliminate the Croats. Or the way the Hutus tried to eliminate the Tutsis.
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust. Can you comprehend what it means for a child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors to know those statistics intimately, and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it? When MeFites -- who are so hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda -- uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel and brush off how that rhetoric strengthens anti-Semitism?
Is it possible for mods to ask that the same dozen or so people who've been commenting 10 or 20 times in this thread to take a day off? Maybe let this thread be something other than their Two Minutes Hate?
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 11:29 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, she did call every other poster in the thread a Nazi. That's gonna get a response.
posted by sagc at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:31 AM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
What does the word 'tone' mean to you? These are all substantive claims.
The reason it feels like very few people are standing by Israel right now is because very few people are standing by Israel right now. People of conscience are horrified by what they're seeing.
posted by dusty potato at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
What does the word 'tone' mean to you? These are all substantive claims.
The reason it feels like very few people are standing by Israel right now is because very few people are standing by Israel right now. People of conscience are horrified by what they're seeing.
posted by dusty potato at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
Mchelly got pushback because they called us Nazis. Which is a shame, since they had important links in the comment. And because it poisons discourse.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
It has! because now there is a ground offensive and 7k people have been killed in the past couple of weeks.
I'm honestly confused if this comment is a parody or not. You can't attempt a genocide against a diaspora? Is that really the argument?
and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it?
Mchelley got attacked for calling us Nazis, not for linking to multiple anti-semitic attacks around the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Mchelly got pushback because they called us Nazis. Which is a shame, since they had important links in the comment. And because it poisons discourse.
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
It has! because now there is a ground offensive and 7k people have been killed in the past couple of weeks.
I'm honestly confused if this comment is a parody or not. You can't attempt a genocide against a diaspora? Is that really the argument?
and come to this thread to warn about the rise of anti-Semitism, and then get dogpiled for it?
Mchelley got attacked for calling us Nazis, not for linking to multiple anti-semitic attacks around the world.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:34 AM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Since no one seems to know what's going on with the moderation here right now, can we just agree to drop this — please? Nothing good will come of this argument right now.
I think it would be for the best if we just agree to not continue responding to any comments going back to and including Mchelly's.
posted by ssg at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it would be for the best if we just agree to not continue responding to any comments going back to and including Mchelly's.
posted by ssg at 11:38 AM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
Mchelley, this is fake news. Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats or danger to anyone or damage to anything. It's yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism transparently meant to distract attention from the ongoing genocide of Palestinians.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mchelley, this is fake news. Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats or danger to anyone or damage to anything. It's yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism transparently meant to distract attention from the ongoing genocide of Palestinians.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:42 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
You'll have to take up the math of whether Israel can ethnically cleanse Palestine (and where is your head at that you even think that's a normal thing to think about?)
He referred directly this yesterday : ": “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
Give your head a shake.
posted by Yowser at 11:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
He referred directly this yesterday : ": “Now go and smite Amalek, utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but kill both man and woman, infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey “.
Give your head a shake.
posted by Yowser at 11:44 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
> The war - and it is a war, with thousands of rockets still being fired directly at civilians from Gaza every week - has unleashed a new world of antisemitism.
It has, yes, and that IS horrifying and awful. And the few Jewish associates I've touched base with are rightfully concerned. Everyone should be concerned.
But there's nothing about indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Gaza that will make that go away.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
It has, yes, and that IS horrifying and awful. And the few Jewish associates I've touched base with are rightfully concerned. Everyone should be concerned.
But there's nothing about indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Gaza that will make that go away.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:45 AM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Note how easily the tone of the comments in this thread have drifted from "This is wrong on all sides" to "Israel is wrong" to "Israel is ethnic cleansing" and now gone straight to "Israel is genociding".
I'm really very sorry that you are apparently incapable of reading. The Israeli cabinet is discussing the forced transfer of the population of Gaza to Sinai. This is ethnic cleansing, by definition. Netanyahu called Palestinians "Amalek" in an open call for genocide. This has nothing to do with "tone", this is taking the Israeli government at their word.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
I'm really very sorry that you are apparently incapable of reading. The Israeli cabinet is discussing the forced transfer of the population of Gaza to Sinai. This is ethnic cleansing, by definition. Netanyahu called Palestinians "Amalek" in an open call for genocide. This has nothing to do with "tone", this is taking the Israeli government at their word.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:48 AM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside
1. People can commit acts of genocide without being able to complete it. Attempted murders that could never work are still attempted murders.
2. "you could murder everyone in Gaza and it wouldn't be genocide" is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [43 favorites]
1. People can commit acts of genocide without being able to complete it. Attempted murders that could never work are still attempted murders.
2. "you could murder everyone in Gaza and it wouldn't be genocide" is possibly the worst argument I've ever heard
posted by BungaDunga at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [43 favorites]
yet another fabricated claim of anti-semitism
CAN WE NOT PLEASE
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
CAN WE NOT PLEASE
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:51 AM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
i think the war framing is itself misleading. this is a large scale response to a prisoner rebellion. no, prisoners shouldn’t kill civilians or even their prison guards in a riot, despite being illegally jailed. the response should also not be the indiscriminate slaughter of every inmate whether they were part of the rebellion or not. the prison should be abolished and the prisoners reintegrated into society. maybe that’s impossible now, but again what people are mad about is an ongoing mass murder with no attempt to prevent collateral damage. raining death on one of the most densely populated urban areas in the world is evil, it’s terror, and the gazans who survive will suffer from the terror for the rest of their lives, and you simply can’t justify it. even if it’s a tit for tat response.
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 11:57 AM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
(to be very, very clear, one can commit genocide on only a part of a group. This is from the Genocide Convention: "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group" (emphasis mine))`
posted by BungaDunga at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Hamas can surrender at at time and this is over. That’s what Japan did, that’s what the Germans did. If Hamas cares about Palestinians they need to end their war.
And if Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, then... what exactly? What does that imply about what Israel should do? I think that's a good question to think about, because Hamas does not appear to have been terribly careful with Palestinian lives in the past,
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
And if Hamas doesn't care about Palestinians, then... what exactly? What does that imply about what Israel should do? I think that's a good question to think about, because Hamas does not appear to have been terribly careful with Palestinian lives in the past,
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 11:59 AM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Proportionality has nothing to do with war.
Proportionality is not uncomplicated, but it very much has something to do with war, and the treaty that established the International Criminal Court deals with it at length. Israel is a signatory to the treaty, but essentially withdrew because they felt that the heavy implication of the treaty is that their treatment of Palestinians is a de facto crime. The Geneva Conventions also deal seriously with the deaths of civilians in wartime, and basically apply the same principal that eventually became the law on proportionality: the deaths of civilians are not acceptable unless they are proportionate to a military advantage that they achieve. Israel signed onto the Geneva Conventions in 1949.
You can delve into the literature and find all kinds of argumentation about whether the "military advantage" should be interpreted as "this specific attack will achieve its tactical advantage" or "these tactics will contribute to us winning the broader war." In the case of Israel vs. Hamas, Foreign Affairs published an article on the matter just a few days ago:
That viewpoint is shared by many, and I disagree with it so totally that just reading it makes me want to jump out of my skin. I'm not a guy who tries to find myself on the same side as, say, Alan Dershowitz. But my point is just that proportionality very much has something to do with war, and the framework of international law about war that the nations of the world have established since WWII are very much the reason you hear people referring to this assault on Gaza as a "war crime."
interogative mood, I suppose you're right that the law of war doesn't include a tally of deaths on each side. This is not the proportionality that international law speaks of. But regular people do just have moral intuitions, and yes, we do keep a perverse ledger about war. We mourn 1,500 and we are too staggered to even interpret what 8,000+ and counting means in human terms. I haven't found much of what you've had to say in this thread or the previous one worth engaging with because, "Gee shucks, Netanyahu is a real bastard but it's infinitely regrettable that Palestinian children must die because the global superpower Hamas refuses to end this war" is a 4chan-level sentiment and you know what they say about whether or not to feed the trolls. But I did feel compelled to respond to your comment about proportionality because it's important to establish that proportionality has real meaning in the context of war.
posted by kensington314 at 12:06 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Proportionality is not uncomplicated, but it very much has something to do with war, and the treaty that established the International Criminal Court deals with it at length. Israel is a signatory to the treaty, but essentially withdrew because they felt that the heavy implication of the treaty is that their treatment of Palestinians is a de facto crime. The Geneva Conventions also deal seriously with the deaths of civilians in wartime, and basically apply the same principal that eventually became the law on proportionality: the deaths of civilians are not acceptable unless they are proportionate to a military advantage that they achieve. Israel signed onto the Geneva Conventions in 1949.
You can delve into the literature and find all kinds of argumentation about whether the "military advantage" should be interpreted as "this specific attack will achieve its tactical advantage" or "these tactics will contribute to us winning the broader war." In the case of Israel vs. Hamas, Foreign Affairs published an article on the matter just a few days ago:
Nonetheless, a large-scale operation to dismantle the terrorist organization that controls Gaza is bound to involve numerous interactions with inhabitants who are not involved in the hostilities. Such interactions must be guided by three principles, the first of which also underlies the second and third. The first is that the IDF must continually try to minimize collateral damage. Obviously, this imperative applies to the Israeli population as well, but in the present operation, its primary application concerns the issue of collateral damage in the Gaza Strip, and the obligation to protect the life, health, and property of noncombatants who live there under Hamas control. Here, two further principles come into play: the principle of distinction and the principle of proportionality. Both are well established as components of historical “just war” doctrine (jus ad bellum) and, since the twentieth century, have been inscribed in international law, as well.The Foreign Affairs article is broadly supportive of Israel's actions so far. The general tone is, "Well, Israel has decided on a military goal of dismantling Hamas and so innocent folks are gonna die. It was good of them to warn people that they will die if they don't move as far south as possible. No comment on people getting bombed on their way south."
That viewpoint is shared by many, and I disagree with it so totally that just reading it makes me want to jump out of my skin. I'm not a guy who tries to find myself on the same side as, say, Alan Dershowitz. But my point is just that proportionality very much has something to do with war, and the framework of international law about war that the nations of the world have established since WWII are very much the reason you hear people referring to this assault on Gaza as a "war crime."
interogative mood, I suppose you're right that the law of war doesn't include a tally of deaths on each side. This is not the proportionality that international law speaks of. But regular people do just have moral intuitions, and yes, we do keep a perverse ledger about war. We mourn 1,500 and we are too staggered to even interpret what 8,000+ and counting means in human terms. I haven't found much of what you've had to say in this thread or the previous one worth engaging with because, "Gee shucks, Netanyahu is a real bastard but it's infinitely regrettable that Palestinian children must die because the global superpower Hamas refuses to end this war" is a 4chan-level sentiment and you know what they say about whether or not to feed the trolls. But I did feel compelled to respond to your comment about proportionality because it's important to establish that proportionality has real meaning in the context of war.
posted by kensington314 at 12:06 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
Japan surrendered after the US nuked them twice. Germany surrendered after things like the fire bombing of Dresden. is this really analogous to any valid solution? how many Palestinian civilians would die while waiting for Hamas to surrender???
posted by supermedusa at 12:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 12:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.
There are plenty of Jewish Mefites not toeing the Likudnik party line, and they're among the most insightful commenters in these threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:18 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
There are plenty of Jewish Mefites not toeing the Likudnik party line, and they're among the most insightful commenters in these threads.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:18 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
Personally, I don't actually see how a person could judge that Israel is currently meeting the demands under international law of necessity and distinction, and it's always been my understanding that without these two, a claim of proportionality falls apart: if you're not conducting a legitimate objective, it's not legitimate to kill civilians on your way to accomplishing it. But I'm not an expert. I've probably learned my lay person's grasp of this by googling about international law every time there is a flare-up in the ongoing Israeli-Palestinian conflict over the last 20+ years.
But this brings me to something I've been mulling, and I'm curious about people's thoughts here. Very much attention has been paid to how October 7 represented a major security failure on the part of the Israeli government--how Netanyahu actively cultivated a Hamas-led status quo in Gaza and then Israel found itself unable to preempt or respond to the October 7 attack as a result of some combination of misjudgment, laziness, focus on aiding settlement of the West Bank, and extreme incompetence. (The people of Israel seem to agree with this view, broadly.)
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective--under which, yes, some number of civilians would absolutely be killed by the IDF--be essentially fixing the Netanyahu government's operational fuck-ups? In other words, a status quo of antagonism and occasional flare-ups was judged to be acceptable by Israel, and rocket attacks were largely repelled by Iron Dome--but October 7 was actually partially the result of a military failure that can be fixed without killing untold thousands of innocents. Shouldn't proportionality be judged against the least harmful military response, which would be to militarize the shit out of the Gaza border and fix the intelligence failures? It's not a solution to the Palestinian need for self-determination, but in the short term it would be defensible and would save many precious lives.
I guess I am just trying to re-center the Netanyahu government's massive, devastating fuck-up here and put the "just" response in context of that. I haven't really seen much of that discussed when we talk about whether Israel has other options, which it certainly does.
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
But this brings me to something I've been mulling, and I'm curious about people's thoughts here. Very much attention has been paid to how October 7 represented a major security failure on the part of the Israeli government--how Netanyahu actively cultivated a Hamas-led status quo in Gaza and then Israel found itself unable to preempt or respond to the October 7 attack as a result of some combination of misjudgment, laziness, focus on aiding settlement of the West Bank, and extreme incompetence. (The people of Israel seem to agree with this view, broadly.)
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective--under which, yes, some number of civilians would absolutely be killed by the IDF--be essentially fixing the Netanyahu government's operational fuck-ups? In other words, a status quo of antagonism and occasional flare-ups was judged to be acceptable by Israel, and rocket attacks were largely repelled by Iron Dome--but October 7 was actually partially the result of a military failure that can be fixed without killing untold thousands of innocents. Shouldn't proportionality be judged against the least harmful military response, which would be to militarize the shit out of the Gaza border and fix the intelligence failures? It's not a solution to the Palestinian need for self-determination, but in the short term it would be defensible and would save many precious lives.
I guess I am just trying to re-center the Netanyahu government's massive, devastating fuck-up here and put the "just" response in context of that. I haven't really seen much of that discussed when we talk about whether Israel has other options, which it certainly does.
posted by kensington314 at 12:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Wouldn't the justifiable military objective
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
posted by mikelieman at 12:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
posted by mikelieman at 12:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
What Israel should do is end the blockade, roll in with relief supplies, and give everyone in Gaza and the West Bank an Israeli passport and a voting location for the next election.
This is also what I favor. But I think what I'm trying to figure out is, living in a world where consensus demands military action, where it's inevitable, wouldn't the acceptable thing be a massive defensive security operation that you can rah rah rah around and that actually protects people immediately, without killing all the Palestinians you can?
I always come back to the US after 9/11. I didn't want us to go into Afghanistan. But some military action was inevitable. My country isn't made up of people like me, and those of us who are here don't have political power. History has borne out that it would've been much preferable to do something narrow and achievable rather than . . . spend 20 years and then hand the country back to the Taliban, having also destroyed Iraq along the way.
posted by kensington314 at 12:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
This is also what I favor. But I think what I'm trying to figure out is, living in a world where consensus demands military action, where it's inevitable, wouldn't the acceptable thing be a massive defensive security operation that you can rah rah rah around and that actually protects people immediately, without killing all the Palestinians you can?
I always come back to the US after 9/11. I didn't want us to go into Afghanistan. But some military action was inevitable. My country isn't made up of people like me, and those of us who are here don't have political power. History has borne out that it would've been much preferable to do something narrow and achievable rather than . . . spend 20 years and then hand the country back to the Taliban, having also destroyed Iraq along the way.
posted by kensington314 at 12:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
To quote Ijeoma Oluo about a friend: “… this morning on her social media she was arguing against the use of the word ‘genocide’ to describe the thousands of Gazans slaughtered in mere days, the bombing of hospitals and schools, the denial of food and water, the destruction of homes for over a million people. It wasn’t a genocide, why? Because there were still so many other Palestinians left in the world. My heart, having been broken so many different ways in these last two weeks, shattered anew.”
That Hamas massacred 1400 people in Israel and took 240 hostages is horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. The rise of attacks against Jews around the world is also all those things.
That Israeli forces have now killed an estimated 8,000 Palestinians in Gaza (many of them children), is also horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. So are the attacks against people living in the West Bank and also the bigots attacking anyone they consider Muslim or Palestinian or Arab or some other category of people they think it’s OK to hate.
Does killing more innocent individuals make up for the massacre by Hamas? I don’t see how. It feels like terrorists committed an unfathomable war crime and Netanyahu’s response was to say hold my beer.
I very much hope for a cease fire. I am sending my representative Barbara Lee a thank you for standing against the bombing of Gaza (which does not mean she supports Hamas). Angelina Jolie gave her money to Doctors Without Borders. That’s where I plan to send a bit of money as well.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:34 PM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
That Hamas massacred 1400 people in Israel and took 240 hostages is horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. The rise of attacks against Jews around the world is also all those things.
That Israeli forces have now killed an estimated 8,000 Palestinians in Gaza (many of them children), is also horrifying, enraging, and terrifying. So are the attacks against people living in the West Bank and also the bigots attacking anyone they consider Muslim or Palestinian or Arab or some other category of people they think it’s OK to hate.
Does killing more innocent individuals make up for the massacre by Hamas? I don’t see how. It feels like terrorists committed an unfathomable war crime and Netanyahu’s response was to say hold my beer.
I very much hope for a cease fire. I am sending my representative Barbara Lee a thank you for standing against the bombing of Gaza (which does not mean she supports Hamas). Angelina Jolie gave her money to Doctors Without Borders. That’s where I plan to send a bit of money as well.
posted by Bella Donna at 12:34 PM on October 31, 2023 [23 favorites]
You understand that? EVEN IF THAT WERE THE STATED GOAL, IT COULD NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN. There are more Palestinians outside Gaza then there are inside. In fact, by the cold hard numbers, Palestinian population has multiplied by about 5 or 6 times in the 20th and 21st Century, while Jewish worldwide population is STILL AT THIS MOMENT lower now than it was before the Holocaust.
This is pure, undiluted apologia for ethnic cleansing and replacement theory.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
This is pure, undiluted apologia for ethnic cleansing and replacement theory.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [19 favorites]
Mod note: This thread has been open for roughly 3 days and it now has 9 mod notes and twice as many flags as it has comments, so let me address a few things.
- I know this is a hard situation and I hope you can understand that this is a tragic historical event that is unfolding as we speak.
- Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and personal attacks have no place in MetaFilter. Period.
- MetaFilter strives to be a community where everyone can contribute as long as they abide by the Content Policy and Site Guidelines.
- Criticism of the involved parties is part of the implications of a community that fosters discussions among its members. To say that the Israeli government is committing violent atrocities, is not the same as antisemitism. Condemning Hamas for its horrific actions is not the same as taking Israel’s side.
Please bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to choose a clear or more proactive moderation path through all the competing narratives going on in this thread. It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion. This situation goes way beyond black and white/good and evil and we hope that members can continue communicating without bringing the level of discourse in this thread down to name calling and discriminatory comments.
While we can moderate the thread and step in whenever the Content Policy or Guidelines are being overstepped; we can't change the root cause of the issue; that is, the fact that the people participating in the thread have different levels of involvement and stakes with the situation and even hold conflicting views among themselves.
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members while allowing others to express themselves, please take a step back and let the conversation move on.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [40 favorites]
- I know this is a hard situation and I hope you can understand that this is a tragic historical event that is unfolding as we speak.
- Antisemitism, Islamophobia, and personal attacks have no place in MetaFilter. Period.
- MetaFilter strives to be a community where everyone can contribute as long as they abide by the Content Policy and Site Guidelines.
- Criticism of the involved parties is part of the implications of a community that fosters discussions among its members. To say that the Israeli government is committing violent atrocities, is not the same as antisemitism. Condemning Hamas for its horrific actions is not the same as taking Israel’s side.
Please bear in mind that it is nearly impossible to choose a clear or more proactive moderation path through all the competing narratives going on in this thread. It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion. This situation goes way beyond black and white/good and evil and we hope that members can continue communicating without bringing the level of discourse in this thread down to name calling and discriminatory comments.
While we can moderate the thread and step in whenever the Content Policy or Guidelines are being overstepped; we can't change the root cause of the issue; that is, the fact that the people participating in the thread have different levels of involvement and stakes with the situation and even hold conflicting views among themselves.
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members while allowing others to express themselves, please take a step back and let the conversation move on.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [40 favorites]
If I may comment on this thread in the past few hours: look, I don't agree with Mchelly that this thread is appalling, but I would like to urge people to remember that some in this thread (including Mchelly, based on what they posted in the previous thread), are actively fearful for loved ones in Israel right now. They are in real pain. Others have connections to Palestinians. They are also in real pain. We can of course disagree with each other but I would urge everyone to try to deescalate the rhetoric a bit - if someone posts something inflammatory (and I agree, suggesting that this thread is a like a BBQ with a burning cross is inflammatory!) you don't need to respond being equally inflammatory by calling them a "wet blanket" or pondering if a "comment is a parody or not." For whatever it's worth, I think clawsoon's response to Mchelly is a good model - you can push back, but you don't have to be mean in the process.
And if a few users have already posted rebuttals to something, unless you have something substantive to add, you don't need to contribute to a pile-on. I have also found the treatment of interrogative mood by some users to be disturbingly mean-spirited/bullying behavior – not everyone, but some of y'all have been going after every single thing they've posted, even their more benign posts, and reading them very ungenerously. While I disagree with a fair bit they've written, I have also learned from some of their posts, and I hope they stick around.
And if someone posts about an antisemitic event that's happened, maybe don't rush to post "Yeah, that's bad, but [x horror happening in Gaza]. This isn't a horror Olympics, you don't need to argue with the rise of antisemitism. You can just post whatever has happened in Gaza or the West Bank without placing it in opposition to what another user has shared. (This has happened countless times in this and the previous thread, but to give one example, see responses to when people brought up the riot in the Dagestan airport)
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members
Thank you loup, if I may add: if you just find yourself getting angry - that's probably a sign that you're not in the best head space to engage with people of other viewpoints.
Sorry if this comment comes off as scolding, that's not my intent, I'm trying to give constructive feedback here as someone who has read almost all of the previous thread and this one. I took the time to write this mainly because people seemed in disbelief that anyone could see this thread as appalling, and while again, I don't agree with that word choice, I imagine some of these tendencies I've noticed in this and previous thread might be what was being referenced. Thanks again to everyone sharing information and insights in these discussions we've been having.
posted by coffeecat at 1:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
And if a few users have already posted rebuttals to something, unless you have something substantive to add, you don't need to contribute to a pile-on. I have also found the treatment of interrogative mood by some users to be disturbingly mean-spirited/bullying behavior – not everyone, but some of y'all have been going after every single thing they've posted, even their more benign posts, and reading them very ungenerously. While I disagree with a fair bit they've written, I have also learned from some of their posts, and I hope they stick around.
And if someone posts about an antisemitic event that's happened, maybe don't rush to post "Yeah, that's bad, but [x horror happening in Gaza]. This isn't a horror Olympics, you don't need to argue with the rise of antisemitism. You can just post whatever has happened in Gaza or the West Bank without placing it in opposition to what another user has shared. (This has happened countless times in this and the previous thread, but to give one example, see responses to when people brought up the riot in the Dagestan airport)
If you find yourself unable to participate in a way that is considerate and respectful towards other members
Thank you loup, if I may add: if you just find yourself getting angry - that's probably a sign that you're not in the best head space to engage with people of other viewpoints.
Sorry if this comment comes off as scolding, that's not my intent, I'm trying to give constructive feedback here as someone who has read almost all of the previous thread and this one. I took the time to write this mainly because people seemed in disbelief that anyone could see this thread as appalling, and while again, I don't agree with that word choice, I imagine some of these tendencies I've noticed in this and previous thread might be what was being referenced. Thanks again to everyone sharing information and insights in these discussions we've been having.
posted by coffeecat at 1:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [31 favorites]
something i am legit curious about — i'm not deploying this as a "checkmate!" fake question — is what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs that get dropped on buildings that people lived in but now because of the bombs the buildings have fallen on a lot of the people who used to live there and now no one is living in them ever again because the buildings are in holes and have no insides for people to live in?
like what does a hamas surrender look like? and i want to stress that this is a legitimate non-rhetorical non-points-scoring question but coming from a place of genuine curiosity. do hamas soldiers all line up and give their guns and rockets to the idf and then ??? happens to them after? does that happen and then idf soldiers say "well, that's it then, nicely handled everyone, all the hamas soldiers have surrendered and we can all move on with our lives?" what makes netanyahu say "well i wanted to continue this war because my approval ratings depend on it, but now i can't because all the hamas soldiers have surrendered so i guess that's it then?" where are the idf soldiers after the surrender and do they stay there and what do they do?
i don't know what a surrender looks like here! hamas's army is closer to being a guerilla thing like the viet cong or whatever than it is to being an army like the united states army or the idf is, right? or are they more of a mainline nation-state army and it really is a matter where a surrender happens when a few guys at the top say "welp, that's it then, we're surrendered" and the army stands down and it's all done, at least until the next time around?
how does it work? and i stress, this is a real question and there's probably an answer and that answer might be something like "well this is how the surrender went down back in '14 or whatever and that would be sufficient for a surrender in this case too", but i am a thousand times too ignorant about geopolitics, particularly geopolitics in the middle east, to know what the answer to this question is and would like someone to help me be less ignorant so i can think about this war in a more intelligent, coherent way that better accords with intersubjective consensus reality.
thank you in advance.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:08 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
like what does a hamas surrender look like? and i want to stress that this is a legitimate non-rhetorical non-points-scoring question but coming from a place of genuine curiosity. do hamas soldiers all line up and give their guns and rockets to the idf and then ??? happens to them after? does that happen and then idf soldiers say "well, that's it then, nicely handled everyone, all the hamas soldiers have surrendered and we can all move on with our lives?" what makes netanyahu say "well i wanted to continue this war because my approval ratings depend on it, but now i can't because all the hamas soldiers have surrendered so i guess that's it then?" where are the idf soldiers after the surrender and do they stay there and what do they do?
i don't know what a surrender looks like here! hamas's army is closer to being a guerilla thing like the viet cong or whatever than it is to being an army like the united states army or the idf is, right? or are they more of a mainline nation-state army and it really is a matter where a surrender happens when a few guys at the top say "welp, that's it then, we're surrendered" and the army stands down and it's all done, at least until the next time around?
how does it work? and i stress, this is a real question and there's probably an answer and that answer might be something like "well this is how the surrender went down back in '14 or whatever and that would be sufficient for a surrender in this case too", but i am a thousand times too ignorant about geopolitics, particularly geopolitics in the middle east, to know what the answer to this question is and would like someone to help me be less ignorant so i can think about this war in a more intelligent, coherent way that better accords with intersubjective consensus reality.
thank you in advance.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:08 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: the comment above about Netanyahu's failures; it's worth looking again at the reports from the Israeli soldiers that they tried warning higher ups *for months* about increased activity at the Gaza border. From The Times of Israel 5 days ago: Surveillance soldiers warned of Hamas activity on Gaza border for months before Oct. 7
I'll quote it a bit longer than usual:
Rotenberg recalled frequently seeing many Palestinians dressed in civilian clothing approach the border fence with maps, examining the ground around it and digging holes. One time, when she passed the information on, she was told that they were farmers, and there was nothing to worry about. “It’s infuriating,” she told Kan of the intelligence failure. “We saw what was happening, we told them about it, and we were the ones who were murdered.”
The Hamas terrorists would train at the border fence nonstop, Desiatnik told Kan. At first, it was once a week, then once a day, and then nearly constantly. In addition to passing on information about the frequency of the training going on at the fence, the surveillance soldier said she collected evidence of the content of the training, which included how to drive a tank and how to cross into Israel via a tunnel. As the activity on the border increased, she realized that “it was just a matter of time” until something happened.
Former tatzpitaniyot ["surveillance soldiers"] Amit Yerushalmi and Noa Melman corroborated the accounts of the two survivors in an interview published by Channel 12 on Thursday morning. “We sat on shifts and saw the convoy of vans. We saw the training, people shooting and rolling, practicing taking over a tank. The training went from once a week to twice a week, from every day to several times a day,” she told Channel 12. “We saw patrols along the border, people with cameras and binoculars. It happened 300 meters from the fence. There were a lot of disturbances, people went down to the fence and detonated an outrageous amount of explosives, the amount of explosives was crazy.”
Like Rotenberg and Desiatnik, Yerushalmi said that she passed the information along, but that nobody seemed to take it seriously.
posted by mediareport at 1:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'll quote it a bit longer than usual:
Rotenberg recalled frequently seeing many Palestinians dressed in civilian clothing approach the border fence with maps, examining the ground around it and digging holes. One time, when she passed the information on, she was told that they were farmers, and there was nothing to worry about. “It’s infuriating,” she told Kan of the intelligence failure. “We saw what was happening, we told them about it, and we were the ones who were murdered.”
The Hamas terrorists would train at the border fence nonstop, Desiatnik told Kan. At first, it was once a week, then once a day, and then nearly constantly. In addition to passing on information about the frequency of the training going on at the fence, the surveillance soldier said she collected evidence of the content of the training, which included how to drive a tank and how to cross into Israel via a tunnel. As the activity on the border increased, she realized that “it was just a matter of time” until something happened.
Former tatzpitaniyot ["surveillance soldiers"] Amit Yerushalmi and Noa Melman corroborated the accounts of the two survivors in an interview published by Channel 12 on Thursday morning. “We sat on shifts and saw the convoy of vans. We saw the training, people shooting and rolling, practicing taking over a tank. The training went from once a week to twice a week, from every day to several times a day,” she told Channel 12. “We saw patrols along the border, people with cameras and binoculars. It happened 300 meters from the fence. There were a lot of disturbances, people went down to the fence and detonated an outrageous amount of explosives, the amount of explosives was crazy.”
Like Rotenberg and Desiatnik, Yerushalmi said that she passed the information along, but that nobody seemed to take it seriously.
posted by mediareport at 1:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs
Aye, there's the rub.
I don't think that Hamas would ever effectively surrender, and I don't think that Netanyahu would ever accept a surrender. I think the expressed goal is to END Hamas, with extreme prejudice. As well as further diminishing the prospect of ANY Gazan attacking Israel again.
And vengeance is still a thing, even in western democracies.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Aye, there's the rub.
I don't think that Hamas would ever effectively surrender, and I don't think that Netanyahu would ever accept a surrender. I think the expressed goal is to END Hamas, with extreme prejudice. As well as further diminishing the prospect of ANY Gazan attacking Israel again.
And vengeance is still a thing, even in western democracies.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
what it actually means for hamas to surrender and how netanyahu can be convinced that hamas is really truly surrendered enough to stop the bombs
Releasing the hostages and stopping the rocket attacks would go a long, long way. Turning over weapons. Leadership/public figures out of Gaza in exile somewhere.
I think Hamas could do this if they wanted to. I don't think there's some mechanical obstacle to surrendering.
posted by ryanrs at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Releasing the hostages and stopping the rocket attacks would go a long, long way. Turning over weapons. Leadership/public figures out of Gaza in exile somewhere.
I think Hamas could do this if they wanted to. I don't think there's some mechanical obstacle to surrendering.
posted by ryanrs at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
A related failure-of-intelligence story: Israeli military stopped listening to Hamas handheld radios a year ago because it was a "waste of effort".
posted by clawsoon at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think one would begin with the question, "Is it even possible to use the military to effectively conduct a "police control" process of bringing a gang of terrorist criminals to justice?", which evidence suggests it is not, since this is a law enforcement problem, not a military problem.
While you'd be absolutely right to look at the necessity and distinction issues and judge whether Israel is even trying to apply those standards, I think it's losing the plot to argue that Hamas can be dealt with as a law enforcement problem. Literally thousands of heavily armed guys invaded southern Israel, overran both towns and military outposts, and held that ground for a brief time in opposition to soldiers with tanks backing them up. Hamas has lots of fully automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, explosives of both the IED and non-improvised variety, rockets, technicals, and so on. Oh, and they're the government of Gaza.
They're not Hezbollah which is essentially a full standing army but they're not just a gang of criminals either and I think the idea that a bunch of cops could deal with them in terms of law enforcement is basically fantasy. They're not super well trained irregulars but they're still basically a military.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
While you'd be absolutely right to look at the necessity and distinction issues and judge whether Israel is even trying to apply those standards, I think it's losing the plot to argue that Hamas can be dealt with as a law enforcement problem. Literally thousands of heavily armed guys invaded southern Israel, overran both towns and military outposts, and held that ground for a brief time in opposition to soldiers with tanks backing them up. Hamas has lots of fully automatic weapons, anti-tank weapons, explosives of both the IED and non-improvised variety, rockets, technicals, and so on. Oh, and they're the government of Gaza.
They're not Hezbollah which is essentially a full standing army but they're not just a gang of criminals either and I think the idea that a bunch of cops could deal with them in terms of law enforcement is basically fantasy. They're not super well trained irregulars but they're still basically a military.
posted by Justinian at 1:39 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
if they had taken the hamas training right next to the border seriously that music festival a few miles from gaza, the one full of all those people i identify with so hard / wish I had been when I was younger, wouldn’t have happened a few miles from gaza and the people i super hard identify with wouldn’t be dead or taken prisoner.
aaagh i hate it i miss the days where israel’s army/intelligence apparatus was or at least seemed hyper competent. like i know israel isn’t the only agent making decisions here but also they’re the ones with the technology and the international recognition and everything, and it hurts a lot when the guys who are the major regional power do dumb things that get a ton of people killed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
aaagh i hate it i miss the days where israel’s army/intelligence apparatus was or at least seemed hyper competent. like i know israel isn’t the only agent making decisions here but also they’re the ones with the technology and the international recognition and everything, and it hurts a lot when the guys who are the major regional power do dumb things that get a ton of people killed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:41 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
It would be presumptuous of us (the moderation team) to think that we have the last say on this discussion.
loup, I respect the hell out of what you're saying, however the above is the one part of your statement I disagree with. The moderation team most certainly has the last say on the discussion because you all are the deciders of which comments stay up and which are deleted.
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. That she concluded with an inflammatory statement doesn't negate any of the articles. That could have been part of the discussion, but it was removed (presumably) because someone on the mod team thought the conclusion outweighed the rest of the comment. Therefore, the mod team de facto decided that not having an inflammatory concluding statement is more important than discussing global anti-Semitism. Other accusatory and inflammatory comments directed at commenters have been flagged and yet left standing.
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." When this thread closes in 27 days, the comments here will be the record of what the mod team deemed acceptable discourse. You can say you don't want to shape the discourse further than you already are, that's your business, but I can't agree with you saying that you can't, or that you shouldn't. The discussion is shaped as much by your inactions as by your actions.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
loup, I respect the hell out of what you're saying, however the above is the one part of your statement I disagree with. The moderation team most certainly has the last say on the discussion because you all are the deciders of which comments stay up and which are deleted.
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. That she concluded with an inflammatory statement doesn't negate any of the articles. That could have been part of the discussion, but it was removed (presumably) because someone on the mod team thought the conclusion outweighed the rest of the comment. Therefore, the mod team de facto decided that not having an inflammatory concluding statement is more important than discussing global anti-Semitism. Other accusatory and inflammatory comments directed at commenters have been flagged and yet left standing.
"The standard you walk past is the standard you accept." When this thread closes in 27 days, the comments here will be the record of what the mod team deemed acceptable discourse. You can say you don't want to shape the discourse further than you already are, that's your business, but I can't agree with you saying that you can't, or that you shouldn't. The discussion is shaped as much by your inactions as by your actions.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Linking to news articles doesn't give you permission to call people nazis. Split your thoughts into two comments if you only want the mods to delete half.
posted by ryanrs at 1:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by ryanrs at 1:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
Even the NYPost article you linked to admits that the NYPD (not a notably pro-Palestinian institution, to say the least) said that there was never any threats
That's not a fair reading. They said there were not any direct threats that could result in arrests. Anybody who has either been or known a woman dealing with an abusive ex or a stalker who is threatening them knows damn well that the cops either can't or won't arrest someone until people get hurt even in the face of things that any reasonable person would consider serious threats.
Knowing even a little history should be enough to know that Jewish students could very reasonably have been afraid and considered a mob of people banging on doors and windows trying to get in and chanting at them to be a legitimate threat. It doesn't help Palestinians at all to pretend that other stuff isn't happening (Dagestan, this incident, etc).
posted by Justinian at 1:49 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
That's not a fair reading. They said there were not any direct threats that could result in arrests. Anybody who has either been or known a woman dealing with an abusive ex or a stalker who is threatening them knows damn well that the cops either can't or won't arrest someone until people get hurt even in the face of things that any reasonable person would consider serious threats.
Knowing even a little history should be enough to know that Jewish students could very reasonably have been afraid and considered a mob of people banging on doors and windows trying to get in and chanting at them to be a legitimate threat. It doesn't help Palestinians at all to pretend that other stuff isn't happening (Dagestan, this incident, etc).
posted by Justinian at 1:49 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
i concur with the position that the mods don’t have the last say, and add that if they tried to have the last say the wounds to the community left behind from these threads (absolutely necessary threads and absolutely necessary wounds) would never have any chance of healing — this small community would be left much smaller and much unhealthier.
like delete antisemitism and islamophobia and leave comments saying genocide, so long as they’re grounded comments, and comments saying nazi, so long as there’s material in them other than abuse, and everyone who can stays calm and finds useful questions and useful news, insofar as questions are useful and news is possible.
i am also in favor of the meta conversations like this one happening here rather than being shunted off to metatalk, because it’s a way for people new to the threads to get their bearings about our collectively determined emerging discourse norms, and without those norms and how they were determined right here the newbies will likely blunder off of the piste we’re laying out and thereby out of ignorance fuxx0r the whole conversation forever.
i mean i’m totally okay with the mods deciding to keep the meta stuff like this in metatalk, i just wanted to be counted as a voice for keeping it all here.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
like delete antisemitism and islamophobia and leave comments saying genocide, so long as they’re grounded comments, and comments saying nazi, so long as there’s material in them other than abuse, and everyone who can stays calm and finds useful questions and useful news, insofar as questions are useful and news is possible.
i am also in favor of the meta conversations like this one happening here rather than being shunted off to metatalk, because it’s a way for people new to the threads to get their bearings about our collectively determined emerging discourse norms, and without those norms and how they were determined right here the newbies will likely blunder off of the piste we’re laying out and thereby out of ignorance fuxx0r the whole conversation forever.
i mean i’m totally okay with the mods deciding to keep the meta stuff like this in metatalk, i just wanted to be counted as a voice for keeping it all here.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
For example, Mchelly's comment was deleted, even though she provided real credible links to non-Israeli news articles about rising anti-Semitism. - The Pluto Gangsta
I believe this comment by mchelly was not deleted - it still shows in my feed.
posted by macfly at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I believe this comment by mchelly was not deleted - it still shows in my feed.
posted by macfly at 1:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It was deleted (at least, for awhile it was gone), but now appears to have been put back up.
posted by coffeecat at 1:59 PM on October 31, 2023
posted by coffeecat at 1:59 PM on October 31, 2023
Put back up -- with the inflammatory portion removed. I wondered, but was never certain until now, whether mods would or could edit user comments.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:02 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 2:02 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
mods would or could edit user comments.
Always could and would upon request for certain corrections (like to fix a bad URL), before the edit window.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on October 31, 2023
Always could and would upon request for certain corrections (like to fix a bad URL), before the edit window.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:06 PM on October 31, 2023
The blame game between Netanyahu and the military took a massive turn on Saturday night, when Netanyahu pulled a Trump, rage-tweeting at 1am to point his finger at the military:
“Contrary to the false claims: Under no circumstances and at no stage was Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of Hamas’s war intentions...“On the contrary, all the security officials, including the head of military intelligence and the head of the Shin Bet, assessed that Hamas had been deterred and was looking for a settlement. This assessment was submitted again and again to the prime minister and the cabinet by all the security forces and intelligence community, up until the outbreak of the war.”
The reaction was swift and furious (archive), and Netanyahu deleted the tweet in the morning and apologized, saying "Things I said … should not have been said and I apologize for that." Whether that refers to his statement that he never got any warning, or whether he just now sees it was unseemly to criticize the military on the eve of a massive operation, is an open question. It's too early to tell what any investigation will reveal and if Netanyahu will be forced out. But headlines like this one don't bode well for him:
Netanyahu Tweet Deemed 'Psychotic' by Party Colleagues Could Hasten His Ouster (archive):
“Anyone aware of how those around the prime minister have behaved in recent years knows exactly what actually happened,” this source continued. “His wife, his son, his bureau staff – they’re all insanely detached from Israeli society and from what’s happening these days. They don’t understand the magnitude of events and the intensity of the feelings at all. They’re certain this disaster is just another crisis that they’ll manage to survive...This government definitely isn’t stable. I believe some of its elements will topple him, and not long from now, we’ll go to elections.”
The parallels with Trump are striking - a circle of isolated yes-people, including his wife Sara (who's been deeply involved in interviews of folks for military positions in the past and is fiercely protective of her husband), political allies who don't like or trust him, etc. I'm now much more inclined to believe former PM Olmert who said at 16:54 in this interview that Netanyahu will be gone for his failures, just like Golda Meir was forced out a few months after the 1973 surprise attacks.
posted by mediareport at 2:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
“Contrary to the false claims: Under no circumstances and at no stage was Prime Minister Netanyahu warned of Hamas’s war intentions...“On the contrary, all the security officials, including the head of military intelligence and the head of the Shin Bet, assessed that Hamas had been deterred and was looking for a settlement. This assessment was submitted again and again to the prime minister and the cabinet by all the security forces and intelligence community, up until the outbreak of the war.”
The reaction was swift and furious (archive), and Netanyahu deleted the tweet in the morning and apologized, saying "Things I said … should not have been said and I apologize for that." Whether that refers to his statement that he never got any warning, or whether he just now sees it was unseemly to criticize the military on the eve of a massive operation, is an open question. It's too early to tell what any investigation will reveal and if Netanyahu will be forced out. But headlines like this one don't bode well for him:
Netanyahu Tweet Deemed 'Psychotic' by Party Colleagues Could Hasten His Ouster (archive):
“Anyone aware of how those around the prime minister have behaved in recent years knows exactly what actually happened,” this source continued. “His wife, his son, his bureau staff – they’re all insanely detached from Israeli society and from what’s happening these days. They don’t understand the magnitude of events and the intensity of the feelings at all. They’re certain this disaster is just another crisis that they’ll manage to survive...This government definitely isn’t stable. I believe some of its elements will topple him, and not long from now, we’ll go to elections.”
The parallels with Trump are striking - a circle of isolated yes-people, including his wife Sara (who's been deeply involved in interviews of folks for military positions in the past and is fiercely protective of her husband), political allies who don't like or trust him, etc. I'm now much more inclined to believe former PM Olmert who said at 16:54 in this interview that Netanyahu will be gone for his failures, just like Golda Meir was forced out a few months after the 1973 surprise attacks.
posted by mediareport at 2:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mod note: A few notes to avoid a derail:
– Mchelly's comment has been reinstated without the Dave Chappelle/Nazi Paragraph as agreed over private communication. Please refer to the Are posts or comments edited by mods? FAQ.
– I've reached out to The Pluto Gangsta privately as well to address their comment.
– If a post/comment violates the Content Policy or Guidelines, it will, most likely be removed, regardless of how "good for the most part" it is.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
– Mchelly's comment has been reinstated without the Dave Chappelle/Nazi Paragraph as agreed over private communication. Please refer to the Are posts or comments edited by mods? FAQ.
– I've reached out to The Pluto Gangsta privately as well to address their comment.
– If a post/comment violates the Content Policy or Guidelines, it will, most likely be removed, regardless of how "good for the most part" it is.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm not frequently in full agreement with Justinian, but I'm in full, 100%, agreement that we shouldn't be trying to dismiss or minimize the mob at New York City College. At the very least they were terrorizing those students.
While I doubt very much that Netanyahu planned for this sort of thing, I think it is undeniable that the spike in antisemitic attcks worldwide is a boon to the Israeli right wing. It frightens people, it makes militant solutions sound better, and those attacks can be used to try to discredit people who oppose his actions in Gaza. It absolutely does not help anyone to feed that propaganda mill.
We shouldn't be getting into hair splitting debates over whether the actions of a particular mob against a Jewsh person or people "really" counts as an attack. If you find yourself doing that you probably ought to rethink things, if for absolutely no other reason at all becuase it fuels the propaganda of the warmongers.
And, possibly more to the point, I'm doubtful that there is anything at all we here can do that will have any impact on the actions of Israel or Hamas. I could be mistaken, but none of us are anywhere near the levers of power.
But we do have the ability to impact other people, even just with words, and I think its incumbant on us in a position of privilige to check ourselves and not counterattack when people we know, even if just online, say things that hurt our feelings. If there was ever a time to cut other people a LOT of slack, this is that time.
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
While I doubt very much that Netanyahu planned for this sort of thing, I think it is undeniable that the spike in antisemitic attcks worldwide is a boon to the Israeli right wing. It frightens people, it makes militant solutions sound better, and those attacks can be used to try to discredit people who oppose his actions in Gaza. It absolutely does not help anyone to feed that propaganda mill.
We shouldn't be getting into hair splitting debates over whether the actions of a particular mob against a Jewsh person or people "really" counts as an attack. If you find yourself doing that you probably ought to rethink things, if for absolutely no other reason at all becuase it fuels the propaganda of the warmongers.
And, possibly more to the point, I'm doubtful that there is anything at all we here can do that will have any impact on the actions of Israel or Hamas. I could be mistaken, but none of us are anywhere near the levers of power.
But we do have the ability to impact other people, even just with words, and I think its incumbant on us in a position of privilige to check ourselves and not counterattack when people we know, even if just online, say things that hurt our feelings. If there was ever a time to cut other people a LOT of slack, this is that time.
posted by sotonohito at 2:15 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
Wiki outlines the Trial(s) of Benjamin Netanyahu — which are ongoing. (Don't change horses in midstream, anyone?)
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jewish students at NYU / Cooper Union were trapped in a library by dozens of protesters banging against their door. They were told by the librarian “they could hide in the attic.”
I missed the whole appalling Nazi deletion thing, but since someone pointed out that the above is not accurate, I thought I'd add a link that states the initial reports of that incident, anyway, appear to have been greatly exaggerated: NYPD: No danger to students during Cooper Union protest:
“There was no direct threat, there was no damage and there was no danger to any students in that school,” Chell said on Thursday. “The students were not barricaded … A school administrator thought it was prudent to close the doors.”
Hey, it happens to us all, but when I find myself passing along something that turns out not to be true, I try to use it to make my contributions here better. The surge in anti-Jewish hatred across the world is real, though, and worrisome. Shitheads like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir are not helping with that.
posted by mediareport at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I missed the whole appalling Nazi deletion thing, but since someone pointed out that the above is not accurate, I thought I'd add a link that states the initial reports of that incident, anyway, appear to have been greatly exaggerated: NYPD: No danger to students during Cooper Union protest:
“There was no direct threat, there was no damage and there was no danger to any students in that school,” Chell said on Thursday. “The students were not barricaded … A school administrator thought it was prudent to close the doors.”
Hey, it happens to us all, but when I find myself passing along something that turns out not to be true, I try to use it to make my contributions here better. The surge in anti-Jewish hatred across the world is real, though, and worrisome. Shitheads like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir are not helping with that.
posted by mediareport at 2:23 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm in full, 100%, agreement that we shouldn't be trying to dismiss or minimize the mob at New York City College. At the very least they were terrorizing those students.
Missed that above and it seems fair. It's questionable to trust the patrol chief who said the students told him "‘No, we feel safe, we're good,’ and they all left" when asked if they wanted taxis. I'd like to hear more from the students themselves, but can definitely imagine that as a frightening moment.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Missed that above and it seems fair. It's questionable to trust the patrol chief who said the students told him "‘No, we feel safe, we're good,’ and they all left" when asked if they wanted taxis. I'd like to hear more from the students themselves, but can definitely imagine that as a frightening moment.
posted by mediareport at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
It would have been better had the protestors imagined their reaction to the reverse scenario, before rattling the doors and whatnot; even if it wasn't meant as anything but rowdiness towards authorities denying entry.
Meanwhile, this person has learned nothing about irony:
City Councilmember Inna Vernikov held a press conference Thursday afternoon demanding Cooper Union President Laura Sparks’ resignation.
“If she cannot handle this job, she needs to resign,” Vernikov said, displaying a box for Sparks’ belongings and a draft resignation letter.
Someone should have asked Vernikov if that's the box she used to keep her confiscated pistol in.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, this person has learned nothing about irony:
City Councilmember Inna Vernikov held a press conference Thursday afternoon demanding Cooper Union President Laura Sparks’ resignation.
“If she cannot handle this job, she needs to resign,” Vernikov said, displaying a box for Sparks’ belongings and a draft resignation letter.
Someone should have asked Vernikov if that's the box she used to keep her confiscated pistol in.
posted by snuffleupagus at 2:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel really uncomfortable making this thread about the details of a locked door and how different people characterized the locking of said door or feel about the locking of said door at a protest in NYC when hundreds of people, including large numbers of children, are dying daily under a bombing campaign with no end in sight.
Anti-semitism is a very real problem in the world, but we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict to justify the killing of Palestinians. We simply can't ignore the context.
posted by ssg at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Anti-semitism is a very real problem in the world, but we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict to justify the killing of Palestinians. We simply can't ignore the context.
posted by ssg at 3:04 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Let's be clear, even if the New York Post article is 100% factually correct, the "Jewish students cornered in library" framing is incredibly disingenuous based on what is reported. Some protestors went to rally against the university administration, they rerouted to a library, and there happened to be Jews among the people at the library. Because it's New York City. Where many of us live happily and, mostly, safely. I don't know what level of main-character syndrome you have to be at to think being in proximity to a protest has even the tiniest shred of meaningful comparison to living in a besieged city without water and fuel where multiple generations of families are being killed by bombs throughout the day.
posted by dusty potato at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:07 PM on October 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
we also cannot ignore the way that claims about anti-semitism are being instrumentalized by the more powerful side of this conflict
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes? But powerful generally, in terms of global acceptance, quality of life, influence? Only if you believe certain right wing truthers and their mutterings about space lasers and lizards. I do genuinely worry how little people interrogate the idea of Jews being globally powerful in ways that are dangerous or harmful, and where those ideas come from, and who benefits from them.
Also, please stop associating the very real fears of Jewish people around the world with the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government. Jews have lots of reasons to be afraid of aggression in public, above and beyond what's going on right now. Where I am in London, neo-Nazis and other antisemitic types have been painting swastikas and antisemitic graffiti outside of Jewish schools for years. That is also part of the context.
posted by fight or flight at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes? But powerful generally, in terms of global acceptance, quality of life, influence? Only if you believe certain right wing truthers and their mutterings about space lasers and lizards. I do genuinely worry how little people interrogate the idea of Jews being globally powerful in ways that are dangerous or harmful, and where those ideas come from, and who benefits from them.
Also, please stop associating the very real fears of Jewish people around the world with the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government. Jews have lots of reasons to be afraid of aggression in public, above and beyond what's going on right now. Where I am in London, neo-Nazis and other antisemitic types have been painting swastikas and antisemitic graffiti outside of Jewish schools for years. That is also part of the context.
posted by fight or flight at 3:20 PM on October 31, 2023 [16 favorites]
When I was younger, I thought that the 'us'-centricness of my mainstream Jewish socialization/education was a healthy response to the deep suffering we had been through as a people. But now I understand better that there was a huge missing piece in terms of teaching and learning solidarity, that mixed with white supremacy can lead to catastrophic myopia. It's really painful to learn that for so many people, the unstated coda to "Never again" was always "to us". But I am really heartened by the fellow Jews who have not only rejected the Gaza genocide but taken important initiative and visibility in the movement to stop it. When it comes to all this, my heart is super embittered but thanks to that, there's a little part of it that's full, too.
posted by dusty potato at 3:24 PM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 3:24 PM on October 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
More powerful in terms of the conflict in Israel and Palestine, yes?
For clarity, my reference to the more powerful side in the conflict is to the state of Israel and its strong supporter the United States.
posted by ssg at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
For clarity, my reference to the more powerful side in the conflict is to the state of Israel and its strong supporter the United States.
posted by ssg at 3:25 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
I found this letter from the outgoing Director of the NY Office of UN High Commissioner of Human Rights, Craig Mokhiber, to the High Commissioner to be powerful, clear-headed and sensible, even if the long-term solutions he writes about are hard to imagine right now. Twitter link to images of the letter.
Note that some are reporting that the letter is him resigning in protest, but it appears that he is actually retiring, per the Guardian.
posted by ssg at 3:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Note that some are reporting that the letter is him resigning in protest, but it appears that he is actually retiring, per the Guardian.
posted by ssg at 3:30 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The persistence of antisemitism is part of the reason many Jewish people are very protective of Israel even with its failings and problems. Why are Israelis reacting as they are to what they see as an existential threat, because of the memory of antisemitism and the violence that came with it. You can’t understand this conflict if you don’t recognize this as part of the problem. Just as you can’t understand this conflict if you don’t acknowledge the Nabka and the experiences of Palestinians post 1967.
posted by interogative mood at 3:33 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:33 PM on October 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
As a side note, this whole thing has really opened my eyes (again) to how irrevocably Xitter has become a real swamp of misinformation. Some of the things I'm seeing RT'd into my feed about both Israel and Palestine are just completely, historically, factually incorrect but they have thousands of RTs. I can't tell if it's just exhaustion on the part of people sharing them, a disinterest in actually checking up on what they're saying, or an organised effort to muddy the waters (or a mixture of all of these).
posted by fight or flight at 3:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 3:38 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
As a side note, this whole thing has really opened my eyes (again) to how irrevocably Xitter has become a real swamp of misinformation.
Which is why, in an era with absolutely no shortage of villains and knaves to choose from, Elmo still manages to stand out.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Which is why, in an era with absolutely no shortage of villains and knaves to choose from, Elmo still manages to stand out.
posted by non canadian guy at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The insistence of some people on conflating the state of Israel/Zionism and Judaism surely bears some part of the responsibility for the unfortunate tendency of some protesting the actions of Israel to wrongly blame Jews as a collective. This idea has been explored at length here, among other places.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:50 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
The insistence of some people on conflating the state of Israel/Zionism and Judaism surely bears some part of the responsibility for the unfortunate tendency of some protesting the actions of Israel to wrongly blame Jews as a collective. This idea has been explored at length here, among other places.
I've had firsthand experience with antisemitic harassment in NYC. It was terrifying. I also think a lot of anxiety among the Orthodox community I was raised in is frankly disproportionate to the evidence. People are jittery and scared. The Holocaust will do that. Orthodox Jews are also visibly, distinctively identifiable as Jews in a way that more secular Jews aren't, which justifiably increases their anxiety. It doesn't help when certain people here feel the need to respond to every mention of antisemitism by repeating the refrain that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic. Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That does not mean that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. This is basic logic. Discussions of specific instances of antisemitism require specific responses. Bringing in the universal claim whenever people make specific claims amounts to the inductive claim that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism. You've made previous comments along the lines of "you're the real racist for calling people racist" regarding antisemitism. Maybe step away?
I would hope that we could take away from Mchelly's comment that there has been a rise in antisemitism in the past few weeks and people are scared, accept that as a salient aspect of the situation writ large, and move on, without centering antisemitism over the people dying or nitpicking every purported instance of antisemitism for legitimacy.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
I've had firsthand experience with antisemitic harassment in NYC. It was terrifying. I also think a lot of anxiety among the Orthodox community I was raised in is frankly disproportionate to the evidence. People are jittery and scared. The Holocaust will do that. Orthodox Jews are also visibly, distinctively identifiable as Jews in a way that more secular Jews aren't, which justifiably increases their anxiety. It doesn't help when certain people here feel the need to respond to every mention of antisemitism by repeating the refrain that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic. Not all anti-Zionism is antisemitism. That does not mean that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. This is basic logic. Discussions of specific instances of antisemitism require specific responses. Bringing in the universal claim whenever people make specific claims amounts to the inductive claim that no anti-Zionism is ever antisemitic. I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism. You've made previous comments along the lines of "you're the real racist for calling people racist" regarding antisemitism. Maybe step away?
I would hope that we could take away from Mchelly's comment that there has been a rise in antisemitism in the past few weeks and people are scared, accept that as a salient aspect of the situation writ large, and move on, without centering antisemitism over the people dying or nitpicking every purported instance of antisemitism for legitimacy.
posted by cosmic owl at 4:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff. They have also claimed to have captured a Hamas stronghold in Western Jabalya of Hamas’ Jabalya Brigade. They claim the Jabalya Brigade played a key role in the October 7th attack. Hamas has officially denied that Biari was killed. Social media is full of rumors suggesting otherwise.
posted by interogative mood at 5:03 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 5:03 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
All these responses to Mchelly are part of the reason why I/P threads go wrong on MetaFilter all the time. The anti-Israel rhetoric gets turned up so hot that Jewish MeFites are immediately attacked if they show the least pushback against the thread's most vocal commenters.This is absurd.
"The participants in this thread are the real Nazis" is not "the least pushback". If anything, it is rhetoric "turned up so hot".
posted by Flunkie at 5:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
As a Jew, I am not threatened by others recognizing the horror of what is being done to Gaza. I believe the truth makes us safer. I believe justice makes us safer. King said, "True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice." I believe a true peace makes us safer.
Anti-semitism is not pointing out the atrocities of the current campaign against Gaza, or the history that it grows from. On the contrary, to cast this work of truth as anti-semitic is to identify Judaism with the project of extirpating the Palestinians. That identification is itself anti-semitic. I do not believe our Judaism requires us to oppress another people. So I do not believe criticizing that oppression is anti-semitic.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
posted by grobstein at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
Anti-semitism is not pointing out the atrocities of the current campaign against Gaza, or the history that it grows from. On the contrary, to cast this work of truth as anti-semitic is to identify Judaism with the project of extirpating the Palestinians. That identification is itself anti-semitic. I do not believe our Judaism requires us to oppress another people. So I do not believe criticizing that oppression is anti-semitic.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
posted by grobstein at 5:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [29 favorites]
I'm really struggling to find a good faith reading of this comment which isn't blaming Jews for antisemitism
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
For those who are fans of deep philosophical dives, I thought I would share this article linked recently on the Drachim FB group (which, incidentally, is a great resource for those in the Jewish community feeling anguished and torn about the current atrocities and who feel like they have nowhere to turn to discuss things rationally and without recrimination):
Israel: Civilians and Combatants (unpaywalled, original link here), a 2009 article from the New York Review of Books by Avishai Margalit and Michael Walzer, that tackles the rather thorny philosophical underpinnings of whether Israel's tactic of mass and fairly indiscriminate bombings are justified in light of the Hamas attacks. The gist of it, as the original poster summarized, is that Israel's current (and past) approach to Gaza is immoral because it prioritizes the lives and safety of its soldiers over the lives and safety of Palestinian non-combatants, i.e. if you want to fight a moral war, your strategy necessarily requires that you risk the lives of your own military forces before you put civilians who cannot injure you in harm's way.
I haven't digested it fully yet, but I'm working my way through and would appreciate others' opinions, especially those who have more active brain cells at the moment.
posted by greatgefilte at 5:59 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israel: Civilians and Combatants (unpaywalled, original link here), a 2009 article from the New York Review of Books by Avishai Margalit and Michael Walzer, that tackles the rather thorny philosophical underpinnings of whether Israel's tactic of mass and fairly indiscriminate bombings are justified in light of the Hamas attacks. The gist of it, as the original poster summarized, is that Israel's current (and past) approach to Gaza is immoral because it prioritizes the lives and safety of its soldiers over the lives and safety of Palestinian non-combatants, i.e. if you want to fight a moral war, your strategy necessarily requires that you risk the lives of your own military forces before you put civilians who cannot injure you in harm's way.
I haven't digested it fully yet, but I'm working my way through and would appreciate others' opinions, especially those who have more active brain cells at the moment.
posted by greatgefilte at 5:59 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some commenters: "Why do some Jewish MeFites claim that this thread is hostile to them?"
Other commenters: Literally unironically dropping Hamas slogans in their comments.
I don't care that other commenters are trying to parse out the origins of "river to the sea". Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members. You are literally sloganeering for Hamas when you say things like that.
If you were to start telling black people "Go Back To Africa", I expect you to get thrown out of the room long before you try to explain that "actually, the resettling movement began with abolitionists and had the support of antebellum black Americans."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Other commenters: Literally unironically dropping Hamas slogans in their comments.
I don't care that other commenters are trying to parse out the origins of "river to the sea". Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members. You are literally sloganeering for Hamas when you say things like that.
If you were to start telling black people "Go Back To Africa", I expect you to get thrown out of the room long before you try to explain that "actually, the resettling movement began with abolitionists and had the support of antebellum black Americans."
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:01 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
I feel like this comment has been many times, but... You're basically making the argument that something like "land back" is calling for the expulsion of white people from North America. You're not the final arbiter of what phrases mean, and saying that "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is Hamas sloganeering is by no means a neutral position.
If you're dedicated to the worst-faith readings of everything, you're going to feel like you're being attacked. But I don't think people just have to accept that interpretation.
posted by sagc at 6:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
If you're dedicated to the worst-faith readings of everything, you're going to feel like you're being attacked. But I don't think people just have to accept that interpretation.
posted by sagc at 6:13 PM on October 31, 2023 [17 favorites]
Your reading comprehension issues aren't my problem; I very clearly said that some people are wrongly blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, and suggested that perhaps part of the reason for that is the (bad-faith) argument that Israel/Zionism = Judaism (which is something I don't believe).
JFC. You're the only person who is conflating Zionism with Judaism. You do so every time antisemitism comes up. There has been an uptick in antisemitism since the start of this war. There's also been an uptick in Islamophobia, which has been rightly acknowledged here as terrible, and you don't hear anyone here saying that not all Zionism is Islamophobic. So why is it so important to you to keep reminding people that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic? Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism? Because all I'm seeing is people pointing out antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
JFC. You're the only person who is conflating Zionism with Judaism. You do so every time antisemitism comes up. There has been an uptick in antisemitism since the start of this war. There's also been an uptick in Islamophobia, which has been rightly acknowledged here as terrible, and you don't hear anyone here saying that not all Zionism is Islamophobic. So why is it so important to you to keep reminding people that not all anti-Zionism is antisemitic? Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism? Because all I'm seeing is people pointing out antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:17 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
I could also do without the slogans, but I'm sure some here find some of my sentiments as objectionable.
"Go Back To Africa"
This last bit seems kind of misaligned, Pro-Palestinian voices don't typically call for Jews to go back to Israel. But, as I intimated above, I do think that a lot of American POC (and doctrinaire leftists) would have trouble classifying the 'back to africa' movement as a program of 'settler colonialism' even if they would agree that they were trying to re-settle colonies of Westerners in Africa. (I don't think the kids marching through that SF high school would think so. Or your typical recently radicalized college student.)
It's seen as one of many diasporic national liberation movements of the era, typically with a socialist bent, of a people maintained as a permanent underclass by the empires they were subject to once alienated from their homelands. Most of which never made it past the initial organizing stages, or else beyond insurgency.
And if Israel had never been founded, Zionism would be in that camp too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:18 PM on October 31, 2023
"Go Back To Africa"
This last bit seems kind of misaligned, Pro-Palestinian voices don't typically call for Jews to go back to Israel. But, as I intimated above, I do think that a lot of American POC (and doctrinaire leftists) would have trouble classifying the 'back to africa' movement as a program of 'settler colonialism' even if they would agree that they were trying to re-settle colonies of Westerners in Africa. (I don't think the kids marching through that SF high school would think so. Or your typical recently radicalized college student.)
It's seen as one of many diasporic national liberation movements of the era, typically with a socialist bent, of a people maintained as a permanent underclass by the empires they were subject to once alienated from their homelands. Most of which never made it past the initial organizing stages, or else beyond insurgency.
And if Israel had never been founded, Zionism would be in that camp too.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:18 PM on October 31, 2023
I don’t think anyone can rightfully call Jews immigrating to Palestine during the mandate as settler colonialism. What makes it settler colonialism is the—-you guessed it—-forcible and violent removal of a civilian population from their homes.
People can move anywhere they want—-if the African diaspora wants to move back to Africa, I think they should be able to do so! But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:29 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
People can move anywhere they want—-if the African diaspora wants to move back to Africa, I think they should be able to do so! But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:29 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Who here is conflating Zionism with Judaism
The person who compared posters in this thread to tiki torch Nazis, for one? I mean, you could at least try to engage with the conversation that's actually happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
The person who compared posters in this thread to tiki torch Nazis, for one? I mean, you could at least try to engage with the conversation that's actually happening.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Some of the people who chant these things are trying to kill my family members.
Some of the people saying the things you are saying have caged a people in an open air prison, which they are now reducing to rubble. Some of the people saying the things I am saying are trying to save you from your complicity in this indelible crime.
I hope you will wake up and, when you do, I hope you can be gentle with yourself.
posted by grobstein at 6:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Some of the people saying the things you are saying have caged a people in an open air prison, which they are now reducing to rubble. Some of the people saying the things I am saying are trying to save you from your complicity in this indelible crime.
I hope you will wake up and, when you do, I hope you can be gentle with yourself.
posted by grobstein at 6:37 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
grobstein take your patronizing attitude somewhere else. I see upthread that you identify as a Jew, and I do not have a problem with your views. However I experience sadness and confusion when I see you internalizing hate speech and regurgitating it without seeing the harm you do to other Jews on this site.
I hope one day, when a positive two-state solution exists between Israel and a Palestinian government that can commit to being a partner in peace, you can be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope one day, when a positive two-state solution exists between Israel and a Palestinian government that can commit to being a partner in peace, you can be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:44 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Serious question: what hate speech? What positions are off limits here, that grobstein has espoused? There are various positions that I disagree with in the comments here, but it's hard to have a conversation without, at minimum, specifying what you're saying is out of line.
posted by sagc at 6:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 6:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
You are not reading my earlier comment: "From the river to the sea" is a Hamas slogan.
Something I also said earlier: MeFites have been hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda, but will uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel.
I don't care if commenters above are trying to take it back or investigate its origins or de-stigmatize its usage. This is a slogan used by Hamas. Repeating it is sloganeering for Hamas. It is hate speech.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Something I also said earlier: MeFites have been hyper-vigilant in the Ukraine threads about not passing along Russian propaganda, but will uncritically swallow and repeat the worst things they hear about Israel.
I don't care if commenters above are trying to take it back or investigate its origins or de-stigmatize its usage. This is a slogan used by Hamas. Repeating it is sloganeering for Hamas. It is hate speech.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:52 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
be gentle with yourself when you realize that all the Jewish self-flagellation in the world did not make Jews one whit safer, nor peace one inch closer.
It is only "Jewish self-flagellation" to criticize an ongoing genocide if I accept that Judaism is identified with the genocidal project. I do not.
posted by grobstein at 6:53 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
It is only "Jewish self-flagellation" to criticize an ongoing genocide if I accept that Judaism is identified with the genocidal project. I do not.
posted by grobstein at 6:53 PM on October 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
This conversation is a farce. There isn't productive dialogue to be had with Zionists about the occupation because there's no there there aside from sleight-of-hand distractions, crybully tactics, and willful ignorance. The world sees it, and more and more fellow Jews see it.
posted by dusty potato at 6:54 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 6:54 PM on October 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
But not if when they do so they start destroying whole villages! This part isn’t complicated!
That part isn't. But as with Israel (over land ownership), and the more 'textbook' forms of European imperial colonialism (like the European 'explorers' in the Americas, and their colonies) the guns usually come out after economic and political colonization going on for a while comes to a head. (Hawaii comes to mind too.) Don't want to derail, so I'll leave it there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
That part isn't. But as with Israel (over land ownership), and the more 'textbook' forms of European imperial colonialism (like the European 'explorers' in the Americas, and their colonies) the guns usually come out after economic and political colonization going on for a while comes to a head. (Hawaii comes to mind too.) Don't want to derail, so I'll leave it there.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:55 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff. They have also claimed to have captured a Hamas stronghold in Western Jabalya of Hamas’ Jabalya Brigade. They claim the Jabalya Brigade played a key role in the October 7th attack. Hamas has officially denied that Biari was killed. Social media is full of rumors suggesting otherwise.
A quick scan through social media finds people suggesting that Jabalya was not a refugee camp at all (that solid multi-story buildings instead of crude tent cities mean that it was an ordinary town instead, and one that was a "well-known hotbed of Hamas activity" according to these accusers), that refugee camps still being in Gaza at all after decades of "home rule" demonstrate Hamas's inability/unwillingness to govern, and that those remaining in Jabalya today had been warned to evacuate and, thus, had made their choice. (Whether those people had the ability to leave, had anywhere to go to where anything resembling a life awaited them, whether those places would have accepted them in these or other circumstances, and who/what else prevented them (physically or otherwise) from leaving is left as an exercise for the reader.)
I'm not going to claim knowledge supporting or rebutting those accusations.
What I do know is that if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground in this war, that "they are the humans and Hamas are the savages" as a fairly common pro-Israel slogan attests, they have every opportunity to maintain it. They have massive advantages in technology, in resources, in logistics. They are far more capable of targeting attacks precisely, rather than bombing indiscriminately and shrugging away civilian casualties.
And when they do the latter, that is a choice that they have made.
posted by delfin at 6:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
A quick scan through social media finds people suggesting that Jabalya was not a refugee camp at all (that solid multi-story buildings instead of crude tent cities mean that it was an ordinary town instead, and one that was a "well-known hotbed of Hamas activity" according to these accusers), that refugee camps still being in Gaza at all after decades of "home rule" demonstrate Hamas's inability/unwillingness to govern, and that those remaining in Jabalya today had been warned to evacuate and, thus, had made their choice. (Whether those people had the ability to leave, had anywhere to go to where anything resembling a life awaited them, whether those places would have accepted them in these or other circumstances, and who/what else prevented them (physically or otherwise) from leaving is left as an exercise for the reader.)
I'm not going to claim knowledge supporting or rebutting those accusations.
What I do know is that if Israel wants to claim the moral high ground in this war, that "they are the humans and Hamas are the savages" as a fairly common pro-Israel slogan attests, they have every opportunity to maintain it. They have massive advantages in technology, in resources, in logistics. They are far more capable of targeting attacks precisely, rather than bombing indiscriminately and shrugging away civilian casualties.
And when they do the latter, that is a choice that they have made.
posted by delfin at 6:56 PM on October 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
NEW: @UNHumanRights NY Office Director @CraigMokhiber resigns in protest over timidity of key parts of #UN system on issues pertaining to Palestinian Human Rights. In letter to @volker_turk he says: "This is a text-book case of genocide. The European, ethno-nationalist, settler colonial project in Palestine has entered its final phase, toward the expedited destruction of the last remnants of indigenous Palestinian life in #Palestine."
The tweet includes the letter and even after the excerpt it's pretty scathing.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
The tweet includes the letter and even after the excerpt it's pretty scathing.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:58 PM on October 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
Speaking from the heart: I don't think dusty potato or grobstein are promoting hate speech here (although I think that ending a comment with "from the river to the sea" was an unnecessarily provocative move). But one thing I do worry about with prominent Jewish pro-Palestine activists is how they can and are trotted out by antisemites as evidence that they can't be antisemitic, because they have Jewish allies. In the end, that's certainly not a reason to not stand up for one's principles, but I do think there's a responsibility for Jewish activists to call out left antisemitism and—especially right now—global antisemitism as well.
This is, of course, but one person's opinion in a sea of others—some of which agree, and some less so. I'm reminded of the exchange over grieving the victims of the Oct. 7 attacks that unfolded in Dissent a couple weeks ago:
Joshua Leifer, "Toward a Humane Left"
Gabriel Winant, "On Mourning and Statehood"
Joshua Leifer, A Reply to Gabriel Winant
Some activists might approach the discussion of global antisemitism right now the way that Winant approaches grief: it's too easy to mobilize for conservative purposes, and is therefore best swept under the rug (or at least suppressed). Respectfully, I side more with Leifer in this exchange, and I think his conclusion applies here, too: there needs to be a place to grieve on the left, and that includes recognizing antisemitism and anxiety about it. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily alienate potential allies (and, you know, minimize antisemitism and anxieties around it, which is bad in itself); perhaps not dusty potato or grobstein, but certainly others in this thread.
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is, of course, but one person's opinion in a sea of others—some of which agree, and some less so. I'm reminded of the exchange over grieving the victims of the Oct. 7 attacks that unfolded in Dissent a couple weeks ago:
Joshua Leifer, "Toward a Humane Left"
Gabriel Winant, "On Mourning and Statehood"
Joshua Leifer, A Reply to Gabriel Winant
Some activists might approach the discussion of global antisemitism right now the way that Winant approaches grief: it's too easy to mobilize for conservative purposes, and is therefore best swept under the rug (or at least suppressed). Respectfully, I side more with Leifer in this exchange, and I think his conclusion applies here, too: there needs to be a place to grieve on the left, and that includes recognizing antisemitism and anxiety about it. To do otherwise is to unnecessarily alienate potential allies (and, you know, minimize antisemitism and anxieties around it, which is bad in itself); perhaps not dusty potato or grobstein, but certainly others in this thread.
posted by the tartare yolk at 7:26 PM on October 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
The thing I keep coming back to is how so many of the calls for Israel to ceasefire aren't paired with calls for Hamas to release the hostages, or at least let some international organization meet and account and vouch for their safety and treatment.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
posted by Salamandrous at 7:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
posted by Salamandrous at 7:36 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gaza was not an open air prison. Almost 60,000 Palestinians passed through the Erez Crossing between Israel & Gaza in just August of this year. About 35,000 passed through the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the same month. Permits are difficult but not impossible to obtain. There were lots of issues and delays getting the permits to people and that was frustrating. The blockade has been fairly loose the last few years with hundreds of millions of dollars being given to Hamas via Qatar and the Palestine Authority supposedly only to be used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons.
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
posted by interogative mood at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
posted by interogative mood at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ugh, Israel-Palestine 101: the US gives tons of money and bombs and guns to Israel (the bombs that were dropped on Jabalia were made in the US). I’m criticizing Israel because my tax dollars go to there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:40 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel-Palestine 201: The US gives tons of your tax dollars to Gaza as well
March 26, 2022: U.S. Support for the Palestinian People [State Dept.]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
March 26, 2022: U.S. Support for the Palestinian People [State Dept.]
Since April 2021, the United States has provided over half a billion dollars in assistance for the Palestinians, including more than $417 million in humanitarian assistance for Palestinian refugees through UNRWA, $75 million in support through USAID, and $20.5 million in COVID and Gaza recovery assistance.October 3, 2022: USAID Annual Spending to Support Palestinians and Peacebuilding Tops $150 Million [US AID]
The U.S. government plans to provide an additional $75 million in economic assistance to the Palestinian people this year. Additionally, the United States is also providing $45 million for programs to support the security sector including important improvements to the rule of law.
USAID has invested $150 million this past year to empower Palestinians to build thriving and resilient communities, promote inclusive development, and advance a two-state solution. Under the Biden-Harris administration, pending Congressional approval, USAID plans to program at least $500 million between 2021-2024 in total support to the Palestinian people. These activities will improve the lives of Palestinians through economic growth, health, youth empowerment, civil society organization support, water and sanitation, humanitarian assistance, and peacebuilding activities to lay the foundation for a two-state solution.October 18, 2023 (literally two weeks ago): U.S. Announcement of Humanitarian Assistance to the Palestinian People [WhiteHouse.gov]
As part of this funding, USAID is launching new programs to improve wastewater management in Tulkarem ($14.3 million), promote digital finance through a pilot activity ($1.0 million), develop technical and vocational skills for youth ($20 million), and bolster civic engagement in the West Bank and Gaza ($28.8 million).
President Biden announced today that the United States is providing $100 million in humanitarian assistance for the Palestinian people in Gaza and the West Bank. This funding will help support over a million displaced and conflict-affected people with clean water, food, hygiene support, medical care, and other essential needs.By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:05 PM on October 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I assume MP would point out there's a difference between humanitarian aid and military aid, and a difference between aid to Palestinians and aid to Hamas. I grant that some humanitarian aid likely ends up in Hamas' pocket for weapons and stuff but it's not the same.
That being said we criticize people we're not giving tons (or any) aid to all the time.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
That being said we criticize people we're not giving tons (or any) aid to all the time.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on October 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.I don't think "my taxes pay for this" is particularly relevant to whether or not someone is "justified" in calling for something, but in any case... who thinks there's no justification for calling on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation?
posted by Flunkie at 8:23 PM on October 31, 2023
> By your logic, since US money is distributed by the truckload to both sides, we should be equally justified to call on Hamas to release the hostages or allow a Red Cross visitation as we should be to call on Israel for a ceasefire.
this isn't the argument of a serious person. literally nobody here does not want the hostages to be released. not that it would matter if i called for it, but here, i call for it, release the hostages. i'd also call on israel to stop literally flattening gaza with countless massive bombs, which run a high risk of killing the hostages before they can be released.
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
this isn't the argument of a serious person. literally nobody here does not want the hostages to be released. not that it would matter if i called for it, but here, i call for it, release the hostages. i'd also call on israel to stop literally flattening gaza with countless massive bombs, which run a high risk of killing the hostages before they can be released.
posted by dis_integration at 8:27 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Providing for context. The Israeli government justifies the attack on Jabalya by claiming that the strike took out an underground bunker containing Hamas commander Ibrahim Biari and several members of his staff.
Ah well, that's ok then.
Do we know if the innocent-to-terrorist kill ratio is specified in policy? Can we treat this action as typical? Then we have "dozens of civilians" killed for "several" terrorists eliminated. Shall we call it 8:1?
If yes, then going by the IDF 2021 estimate of 30,000 Hamas fighters... the corresponding potential civilian toll is left as an exercise for the reader.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
Um, what?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Ah well, that's ok then.
Do we know if the innocent-to-terrorist kill ratio is specified in policy? Can we treat this action as typical? Then we have "dozens of civilians" killed for "several" terrorists eliminated. Shall we call it 8:1?
If yes, then going by the IDF 2021 estimate of 30,000 Hamas fighters... the corresponding potential civilian toll is left as an exercise for the reader.
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
Um, what?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:28 PM on October 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
From the article by Leifler linked above:
Earlier this week, as the death toll mounted in Israel and the bombing of Gaza intensified, Sahar Vardi, an Israeli anti-occupation activist and friend in Jerusalem posted an essay titled “Dual Loyalty” on Facebook. Although often an insult dealt to leftists, an accusation equivalent to treason, “dual loyalty,” she suggested, might be viewed another way. Indeed, she refigured it as a name for an exceptional emotional asset—the ability to “let one’s heart break from this, and from this,” to mourn the Israeli civilians killed, entire families wiped out, and to mourn the Palestinians killed in Gaza, crushed under the bombing, impoverished by sixteen years of blockade. But maybe, she added, loyalty isn’t the right world. “It’s a dual pain, dual heartbreak, care, love. It is to hold everyone’s humanity.”posted by jb at 8:32 PM on October 31, 2023 [15 favorites]
To hold everyone’s humanity—that is the task of the hour
hundreds of millions of dollars being given to Hamas via Qatar and the Palestine Authority supposedly only to be used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons.
It continues to be strange to see people leave out the part about Netanyahu taking over the distribution of those Qatari millions from the PA so Israel could have a more direct role in strengthening Hamas and keeping it and the PA in opposition so Netanyahu would not have to negotiate a Palestinian state. If anyone still isn't aware, this 2019 Jerusalem Post article lays it out:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said.
Netanyahu explained that, in the past, the PA transferred the millions of dollars to Hamas in Gaza. He argued that it was better for Israel to serve as the pipeline to ensure the funds don’t go to terrorism. “Now that we are supervising, we know it’s going to humanitarian causes,” the source said, paraphrasing Netanyahu.
The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The comment about "supposedly being used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons" is particularly interesting given this recent JPost op-ed in which a legal scholar insists no country should deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza:
"As long as we have a degree of certainty that some of the aid is being diverted to Hamas – and we do have that certainty – then all the states of the world must refrain from providing this indirect support to Hamas."
Funny how it was ok when Netanyahu did it for years, but is now suddenly beyond the pale.
posted by mediareport at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
It continues to be strange to see people leave out the part about Netanyahu taking over the distribution of those Qatari millions from the PA so Israel could have a more direct role in strengthening Hamas and keeping it and the PA in opposition so Netanyahu would not have to negotiate a Palestinian state. If anyone still isn't aware, this 2019 Jerusalem Post article lays it out:
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said.
Netanyahu explained that, in the past, the PA transferred the millions of dollars to Hamas in Gaza. He argued that it was better for Israel to serve as the pipeline to ensure the funds don’t go to terrorism. “Now that we are supervising, we know it’s going to humanitarian causes,” the source said, paraphrasing Netanyahu.
The prime minister also said that, “whoever is against a Palestinian state should be for” transferring the funds to Gaza, because maintaining a separation between the PA in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza helps prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
The comment about "supposedly being used for humanitarian purposes, not weapons" is particularly interesting given this recent JPost op-ed in which a legal scholar insists no country should deliver humanitarian aid to Gaza:
"As long as we have a degree of certainty that some of the aid is being diverted to Hamas – and we do have that certainty – then all the states of the world must refrain from providing this indirect support to Hamas."
Funny how it was ok when Netanyahu did it for years, but is now suddenly beyond the pale.
posted by mediareport at 9:10 PM on October 31, 2023 [14 favorites]
Metafilter: To hold everyone’s humanity
posted by netowl at 9:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by netowl at 9:19 PM on October 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gaza was not an open air prison. Almost 60,000 Palestinians passed through the Erez Crossing between Israel & Gaza in just August of this year. About 35,000 passed through the Rafah crossing into Egypt in the same month. Permits are difficult but not impossible to obtain.
That is very misleading spin. For context on the above happytalk, here's what it's like for a Palestinian trying to get through the Erez (aka Beit Hanoun) crossing into Israel, from June 2022:
It is notoriously difficult for Palestinians to enter and exit Gaza via Beit Hanoun – no one crosses the border without being granted permission by Israel and submitting to lengthy security checks. Permits to cross are only given to limited categories of people, such as medical patients and their companions, trader-permit holders, and other exceptional humanitarian cases.
The permit processing times for Beit Hanoun are known to be extremely long. It has been known for people seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza to wait for up to 50 working days for a permit, regardless of when their medical appointment is. It is also very common for Israeli authorities to not respond to permit applications, even when Palestinians in Gaza meet the travel permit criteria. Israeli rejections of permits are explained as being for security reasons, with no further explanation given.
And from the same article, a look at the process for crossing at Rafah into Egypt:
Restrictions at the crossing imposed by the Egyptian authorities are currently not as strict as they have been in the past, but limits on the number and type of people allowed to travel continue. This has forced many Palestinians in Gaza to pay expensive and unofficial “coordination fees” to the Egyptian side to be able to leave during the limited days the crossing is open.
Palestinian passengers also often complain about the behaviour of Egyptian security personnel, and what they describe as frequently humiliating searches. These measures can prolong the trip between Rafah and Cairo airport by up to 72 hours in some cases. The Rafah crossing does not allow Palestinians from the occupied West Bank to enter Gaza. Additionally, Israel does not allow people to return to Gaza via the Beit Hanoun crossing if they have left via Rafah. This puts Palestinians in Gaza in a difficult situation – if they leave through Rafah and it then closes, they may not be able to re-enter.
That "coordination fees" link is worth a read as well, from 2019:
For the vast majority of the 1.9 million residents of Gaza, the Rafah route is often the only viable option. In order to leave via Egypt, they register their request with the Hamas government, but with thousands of names on the waiting lists, approvals can take months.
This is where “travel agents and representatives” – Gaza-based brokers who work with Egyptian intelligence officers to expedite the movement of Palestinians, enter the scene...Hala agency is one of the largest companies offering such services. With offices in Gaza City, it arranges the trip for $1,200 per person, an amount equivalent to about three times the average monthly salary of a civil worker here...
A Palestinian official at the Rafah crossing, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told Al Jazeera that an average of two buses, carrying a total of about 100 Palestinians who had paid between $600-$1,200 per person, arrived at the crossing each day that it was open. “This vast amount of money is siphoned off from poor Gazans every month by the Egyptians,” said the official.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza, consistently pushing the line that Gazans have access to luxurious apartments and day spas, and sometimes (gasp!) even go surfing to get some joy out of life, but I do know two things:
1) you've refused to mention what year you were there (no one's asking with whom, or what village, etc, just "What year were you in Gaza?") and
2) you almost never offer any sources for any of your extraordinary claims as you continually make this kind of comment. It's disappointing, to say the least.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [28 favorites]
That is very misleading spin. For context on the above happytalk, here's what it's like for a Palestinian trying to get through the Erez (aka Beit Hanoun) crossing into Israel, from June 2022:
It is notoriously difficult for Palestinians to enter and exit Gaza via Beit Hanoun – no one crosses the border without being granted permission by Israel and submitting to lengthy security checks. Permits to cross are only given to limited categories of people, such as medical patients and their companions, trader-permit holders, and other exceptional humanitarian cases.
The permit processing times for Beit Hanoun are known to be extremely long. It has been known for people seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza to wait for up to 50 working days for a permit, regardless of when their medical appointment is. It is also very common for Israeli authorities to not respond to permit applications, even when Palestinians in Gaza meet the travel permit criteria. Israeli rejections of permits are explained as being for security reasons, with no further explanation given.
And from the same article, a look at the process for crossing at Rafah into Egypt:
Restrictions at the crossing imposed by the Egyptian authorities are currently not as strict as they have been in the past, but limits on the number and type of people allowed to travel continue. This has forced many Palestinians in Gaza to pay expensive and unofficial “coordination fees” to the Egyptian side to be able to leave during the limited days the crossing is open.
Palestinian passengers also often complain about the behaviour of Egyptian security personnel, and what they describe as frequently humiliating searches. These measures can prolong the trip between Rafah and Cairo airport by up to 72 hours in some cases. The Rafah crossing does not allow Palestinians from the occupied West Bank to enter Gaza. Additionally, Israel does not allow people to return to Gaza via the Beit Hanoun crossing if they have left via Rafah. This puts Palestinians in Gaza in a difficult situation – if they leave through Rafah and it then closes, they may not be able to re-enter.
That "coordination fees" link is worth a read as well, from 2019:
For the vast majority of the 1.9 million residents of Gaza, the Rafah route is often the only viable option. In order to leave via Egypt, they register their request with the Hamas government, but with thousands of names on the waiting lists, approvals can take months.
This is where “travel agents and representatives” – Gaza-based brokers who work with Egyptian intelligence officers to expedite the movement of Palestinians, enter the scene...Hala agency is one of the largest companies offering such services. With offices in Gaza City, it arranges the trip for $1,200 per person, an amount equivalent to about three times the average monthly salary of a civil worker here...
A Palestinian official at the Rafah crossing, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, told Al Jazeera that an average of two buses, carrying a total of about 100 Palestinians who had paid between $600-$1,200 per person, arrived at the crossing each day that it was open. “This vast amount of money is siphoned off from poor Gazans every month by the Egyptians,” said the official.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza, consistently pushing the line that Gazans have access to luxurious apartments and day spas, and sometimes (gasp!) even go surfing to get some joy out of life, but I do know two things:
1) you've refused to mention what year you were there (no one's asking with whom, or what village, etc, just "What year were you in Gaza?") and
2) you almost never offer any sources for any of your extraordinary claims as you continually make this kind of comment. It's disappointing, to say the least.
posted by mediareport at 9:47 PM on October 31, 2023 [28 favorites]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
People have done. It doesn't fill much of the conversation though, because there is no pushback to it. We all agree. The hostages should be released. We're all busy talking about the things where we don't all agree.
posted by Dysk at 12:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
People have done. It doesn't fill much of the conversation though, because there is no pushback to it. We all agree. The hostages should be released. We're all busy talking about the things where we don't all agree.
posted by Dysk at 12:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Pope called for the release of hostages when requesting a ceasefire. The UN resolution did not mention the hostages or call for their immediate release. It also failed to mention Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 12:10 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
(I was referencing the conversation in this thread, for clarity, as that is how I initially read the comment I was responding to. The UN resolution is a product of a shitty political process and is flawed, should absolutely call for an end to immediate hostilities on both sides: stopping the bombing, and releasing the hostages. That it does not is a failing.)
posted by Dysk at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 12:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Rafah crossing seems to be open for very limited movement. There are photos of ambulances going through with the most seriously wounded (80 people mentioned, which is... nowhere near enough) and foreign nationals including Australians have been instructed to head to Rafah. A drop in the sea of need, especially if they don't allow aid to cross into Gaza.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:20 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why is (almost) no one calling on Hamas to free the hostages?
This maxim is becoming the "but her emails!" of the uncritically Pro-Israel side of this debate.
*Everyone* is calling for the release of the hostages. Some people are also suggesting that Israel stop indiscriminately bombing the place where the hostages are being held.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:15 AM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
This maxim is becoming the "but her emails!" of the uncritically Pro-Israel side of this debate.
*Everyone* is calling for the release of the hostages. Some people are also suggesting that Israel stop indiscriminately bombing the place where the hostages are being held.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 2:15 AM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
From the last thread:
A concrete example of how misinformation about the resolutions has been spread. The pro-Israel camp claims the original resolution says nothing about releasing the hostages. While true that it doesn't contain the word 'hostage', it contains this passage:
Calls for the immediate and unconditional release of all civilians who are being illegally held captive, demanding their safety, well-being and humane treatment in compliance with international law;
Seems to address hostages to me. I expect the problem is that it also includes countless Palestinian civilians that Israel has been locking up without charges for years.
posted by bcd at 2:02 PM on October 27
I presume that we all agree that anyone being held indefinitely on administrative detention should be offered a fair trial, in an impartial legal system, and then released if it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they have committed what they are accused of? Assuming that they're all actually formally accused of anything, of course.
At the end of June 2023, the Israel Prison Service (IPS) was holding 147 Palestinian minors in detention or in prison on what it defined “security” grounds. At that time, the IPS was also holding 26 Palestinian minors for being in Israel illegally. B'tselem
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Last week I listened to two teenage Australian girls, maybe 14, report back from their family visit to the West Bank. Of course, having Palestinian heritage, they were not allowed to fly into Tel Aviv. They were turned back without explanation from the Al-Aqsa mosque, but were told it was for the best, this very year Israelis had attacked worshipers in the mosque. Someone else they knew had argued, once, with the Israelis, had gotten upset, had shouted, had been shot.
They told of their cousins, who laughed at their horror when told of the routine IDF presence in their schools and neighbourhoods, searching students' bags and routinely humiliating and abusing them. Such things are normal, in Palestine, apparently. They told of their cousins' car, with bullet-holes from random potshots by settlers or the IDF, of how the Palestinian plates marked it as a free target. There was certainly no question of visiting any family in Gaza.
They spoke of the extreme humility that was expected of the average Palestinian, how they were expected to endure degradation and abuse without comment or retort. Of how proud they were to be Palestinian-Australians and how they would keep being proud, no matter what came. They flew out October 5, perhaps "lucky" refugees, but I would not trade places with them, and I am the lucky one, that they are part of my local community, and Australia is fortunate to have them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
They told of their cousins, who laughed at their horror when told of the routine IDF presence in their schools and neighbourhoods, searching students' bags and routinely humiliating and abusing them. Such things are normal, in Palestine, apparently. They told of their cousins' car, with bullet-holes from random potshots by settlers or the IDF, of how the Palestinian plates marked it as a free target. There was certainly no question of visiting any family in Gaza.
They spoke of the extreme humility that was expected of the average Palestinian, how they were expected to endure degradation and abuse without comment or retort. Of how proud they were to be Palestinian-Australians and how they would keep being proud, no matter what came. They flew out October 5, perhaps "lucky" refugees, but I would not trade places with them, and I am the lucky one, that they are part of my local community, and Australia is fortunate to have them.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [26 favorites]
I meant "interogative mood', not interobang, in the quote below. interogative mood is the person who posted the ridiculously misleading spin about the Gaza crossings.
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza
posted by mediareport at 5:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
interobang, I have no idea why you continue to be the only person I've encountered on the internet who regularly paints this unusually pleasant picture of life in Gaza
posted by mediareport at 5:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
WSJ livestream: Hamas said seven hostages, including three foreign passport holders, were killed in Israel’s strike on Jabalia refugee camp.
posted by mediareport at 5:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 5:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
WSJ livestream: Hamas said seven hostages, including three foreign passport holders, were killed in Israel’s strike on Jabalia refugee camp.
Sounds like they did hit a bunker/tunnel complex, then.
I can't imagine how horrible it is for the hostages' families right now, not knowing if people are alive or in what condition. At one level, I can understand Israel's decision to basically say to Hamas that "holding hostages does not make you safe," and to attack anyway, because the alternative is to just create more incentive to hold hostages. But what a terrible set of choices, and the appeals from the families are heartbreaking.
Of all the decisions made in response to the initial attack, the decision to cut off water supplies seems to me to be the most indefensible. Hamas probably has some level of water stored for its fighters (and can take what water is available at the barrel of a gun), so they are relatively ok. This is just causing massive suffering to civilians. People need to drink, and be able to wash.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Sounds like they did hit a bunker/tunnel complex, then.
I can't imagine how horrible it is for the hostages' families right now, not knowing if people are alive or in what condition. At one level, I can understand Israel's decision to basically say to Hamas that "holding hostages does not make you safe," and to attack anyway, because the alternative is to just create more incentive to hold hostages. But what a terrible set of choices, and the appeals from the families are heartbreaking.
Of all the decisions made in response to the initial attack, the decision to cut off water supplies seems to me to be the most indefensible. Hamas probably has some level of water stored for its fighters (and can take what water is available at the barrel of a gun), so they are relatively ok. This is just causing massive suffering to civilians. People need to drink, and be able to wash.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:57 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
just take a minute to contemplate the coldness and inhumanity of disincentivizing hostage taking by killing the hostages
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
The New Yorker, in January of 2021 on Trump's Legacy in Israel.
That was really useful, snuffleupagus, thanks.
When Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, he in effect quashed the possibility that East Jerusalem would ever belong to a Palestinian state. When he moved the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, in 2018, he signalled the abandonment of even the pretense of good-faith negotiations with the Palestinians.
Rather than use the prospect of these gestures as an incentive for Netanyahu to adopt a comprehensive peace plan in the region, Trump simply made them.
Lots more sharp stuff in that piece about Biden, Obama, Israel and Netanyahu.
posted by mediareport at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
That was really useful, snuffleupagus, thanks.
When Trump recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, he in effect quashed the possibility that East Jerusalem would ever belong to a Palestinian state. When he moved the U.S. Embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, in 2018, he signalled the abandonment of even the pretense of good-faith negotiations with the Palestinians.
Rather than use the prospect of these gestures as an incentive for Netanyahu to adopt a comprehensive peace plan in the region, Trump simply made them.
Lots more sharp stuff in that piece about Biden, Obama, Israel and Netanyahu.
posted by mediareport at 6:03 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Press statements from Hamas should be treated with, at the very minimum, the same amount of skepticism as commenters here are treating statements from the IDF or the Israeli government. Perhaps more, given that Hamas has an established pattern of media manipulation.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 6:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
obviously both sides view information as one of the weapons in their arsenal. this is the case with all conflicts. so maybe they're lying about hostages being killed there, or maybe not. but unless idf intelligence somehow has exact knowledge of where every hostage is, every time they drop a bomb they're declaring their indifference to whether a hostage might be killed or not.
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
every time they drop a bomb they're declaring their indifference to whether a hostage might be killed or not.
It's not indifference, but it is a strategic choice, versus allowing Hamas to operate safely behind human shields (both of local civilians and of hostages). Whether it is the smart strategic choice, I don't know; there is certainly plenty of opposition and controversy within Israel, for example, and we can all see the ethical problems.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It's not indifference, but it is a strategic choice, versus allowing Hamas to operate safely behind human shields (both of local civilians and of hostages). Whether it is the smart strategic choice, I don't know; there is certainly plenty of opposition and controversy within Israel, for example, and we can all see the ethical problems.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gallant has outlined what he expects to be four stages:
posted by clawsoon at 7:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Gallant said that the current expanded ground activity, which began Friday evening, and an expected larger-scale ground maneuver, are only the second of four planned phases to the war. Israel opened the campaign with a three-week-long aerial bombardment of the Strip and limited ground raids...So that's what the Israeli government is telling us to expect: Many months of high-intensity warfare, followed by many months of low-intensity warfare, followed by some blanks to be filled in later.
...the military is preparing for a third, intermediate stage of fighting during which it will begin to seek out new leadership for the battered enclave, while rooting out “pockets of resistance.”
Only after this lower-intensity conflict, which is also estimated to take several months, Gallant has said, will Israel transition to its final phase: disconnection from the Gaza Strip.
The final phase of the war will “require the removal of Israel’s responsibility for life in the Gaza strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel,” Gallant said on October 20.
Apart from saying that neither Israel nor Hamas will control Gaza in the war’s aftermath, the defense minister did not detail what this disconnection would ultimately entail...
US leaders have shared lessons from their own experiences fighting a more targeted ground effort against the Islamic State in Mosul and a fuller invasion of Fallujah, during the Iraq War. The US has reportedly pressed upon Israel to consider a Mosul-like model.
Of these American-raised examples, the defense minister said “it’s not exactly the same” situation between Israel and Hamas, but that he is having an “ongoing conversation.”...
The defense minister stressed that Israel has no interest in reoccupying Gaza, but Israel has no clear plan for who, other than Israel and Hamas, will rule the Strip.
“Whatever will be next will be better, whatever it is,” Gallant said.
The defense minister said that he has already once before tried to eliminate Hamas, but his suggestions were not cleared by political leaders at the time...
“I’m the son of Holocaust survivors, I’m not going to allow it again,” Gallant said, of permitting Hamas or another terror threat to reside alongside Israel’s southern communities.
posted by clawsoon at 7:47 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
“I’m the son of Holocaust survivors, I’m not going to allow it again,” Gallant said, of permitting Hamas or another terror threat to reside alongside Israel’s southern communities.
Is he doing Hezbollah next? Because they're alongside Israel's northern communities...
posted by BungaDunga at 7:58 AM on November 1, 2023
Is he doing Hezbollah next? Because they're alongside Israel's northern communities...
posted by BungaDunga at 7:58 AM on November 1, 2023
A little good news: the Rafah border crossing with Egypt has finally opened. NYTimes is reporting dual-nationals and some seriously injured Palestinians are being allowed to leave today.
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 8:05 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hamas official vows to repeat Israel attacks ‘again and again’ until it’s destroyed':
Ghazi Hamad, a member of the militant group’s decision-making political bureau, warned that Gaza leadership would replicate the coordinated Oct. 7 attack, referred to by the terrorists as Operation al-Aqsa Flood, which killed more than 1,400 Israelis and took some 240 hostages.posted by fight or flight at 8:13 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
“The al-Aqsa Flood is just the first time and there will be a second, a third, a fourth because we have the determination, the resolve and the capabilities to fight,” Hamad said in an Oct. 24 Lebanese television interview republished by British outlets Wednesday.
Hamad said that terrorist organization is willing to “pay a price.”
“We are called a nation of martyrs and are proud to sacrifice martyrs,” Hamad said. “Israel is a country that has no place on our land. We must remove that country because it constitutes a security, military and political catastrophe to the Arab and Islamic nations, and must be finished.”
“We are not ashamed to say this, with full force. We must teach Israel a lesson and we will do this again and again.”
[...]
“The existence of Israel is what causes all that pain, blood and tears,” Hamad said, calling the creation of the Jewish state “illogical.”
“It is Israel, not us. We are the victims of the occupation. Therefore, nobody should blame us for the things we do. On October 7, October 10, October 1,000,000 – everything we do is justified.”
People need to drink, and be able to wash.
I think people who live where infrastructure around public health and sanitation is good don't realize how important washing water is. Dysentery and typhoid can explode in situations like Gaza where people are jammed together without sufficient sanitation. Anne Frank famously wasn't killed by the Nazis directly but rather succumbed to typhoid from camp conditions.
posted by Mitheral at 8:19 AM on November 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
I think people who live where infrastructure around public health and sanitation is good don't realize how important washing water is. Dysentery and typhoid can explode in situations like Gaza where people are jammed together without sufficient sanitation. Anne Frank famously wasn't killed by the Nazis directly but rather succumbed to typhoid from camp conditions.
posted by Mitheral at 8:19 AM on November 1, 2023 [13 favorites]
Biden’s Conspiracy Theory About Gaza Casualty Numbers Unravels Upon Inspection
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 8:28 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
The Gaza-ification of the West Bank - new interview - Isaac Chotiner with Hagai El-Ad, an Israeli activist and the former executive director of the nonprofit organization B’Tselem, which works on human-rights issues in the occupied territories.
posted by toastyk at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:30 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
"I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1718107575781404897?s=20
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
https://x.com/InternetHippo/status/1718107575781404897?s=20
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Just because I've lost track of what's been posted, I do want to note that Israel reopened one water pipeline on Oct 15 and then reopened a second one last week. The second article reports that in the attack Hamas damaged a third water pipeline so it can't be reopened.
posted by hydropsyche at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 8:35 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Gaza had cafes, markets, day spas/ salons, gas stations, supermarkets, some new luxury hi-rise apartments, and even an amusement park. There were surfers on the beach. Students came from all over to attend the University. Some Americans even moved there in recent years to be close to elderly parents and family. It had a lot of problems, some because of the limitations imposed by Hamas, some by Israel and Egypt; but describing it as some kind of dystopian hell scape prison camp for Palestinians is propaganda and hyperbole.
gaza had these things because of the beauty, perseverance, and strength of the Palestinian people under occupation. using the work of Gazans to minimize the horrible conditions they find themselves under - I have no words for what I think of this.
When did you go to Gaza and under what circumstances? The fact that you have continued to dodge this direct question makes everything you say about Gaza suspect. Why do you insist on minimizing the struggle of the Palestinian people in every comment you make? Why do you think your word as an outsider matters more than the word of Palestinians in Gaza? If it's not a prison, why can't they leave?
posted by JimBennett at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
gaza had these things because of the beauty, perseverance, and strength of the Palestinian people under occupation. using the work of Gazans to minimize the horrible conditions they find themselves under - I have no words for what I think of this.
When did you go to Gaza and under what circumstances? The fact that you have continued to dodge this direct question makes everything you say about Gaza suspect. Why do you insist on minimizing the struggle of the Palestinian people in every comment you make? Why do you think your word as an outsider matters more than the word of Palestinians in Gaza? If it's not a prison, why can't they leave?
posted by JimBennett at 8:37 AM on November 1, 2023 [22 favorites]
Al Jazeera English: LIVE: Israel hits Jabalia refugee camp in Gaza for the second time, a day after deadly Israeli air attack
In case anyone had doubts about either intent or regret.
posted by delfin at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
In case anyone had doubts about either intent or regret.
posted by delfin at 8:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Arab-Israeli Knesset member and chairman of the Ra’am party Mansour Abbas has published an Op-Ed in The Times of Israel — For Arabs and Jews in these Dark Days Patience is a Civic Duty.
posted by interogative mood at 8:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
"I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
It was asked a bit earlier whether the IDF was to some extent "indifferent" to the risks of striking hostages or civilians. "Indifference" might be too charitable a word.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
It was asked a bit earlier whether the IDF was to some extent "indifferent" to the risks of striking hostages or civilians. "Indifference" might be too charitable a word.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:58 AM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
"GAZA STRIP, 5 June 2023 -Today, representatives of the United Nations, the European Union, and the Palestinian Authority officially marked the finalization of the Gaza Strip desalination plant expansion. With this milestone, water production capacity of the Southern Gaza Seawater Desalination Plant is substantially increased, reaching 175,000 more people."
Gaza, Sep 8 (EFE).- The Gaza Strip has turned to desalination after grappling with scarce access to water for years amid a stiff Israeli blockade and a flailing economy.
“Desalination is the only way to obtain drinking water, we have no other option,” Ahmed Robae, the director at Gaza’s largest desalination plant, tells EFE as he checks several pipes."
'LH and Iran are creating the expectation in the information environment that LH will escalate against Israel on or around November 3, possibly by increasing the rate of attack or by using more advanced systems.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian traveled to Qatar for further political coordination with Hamas leadership.'( ibid)
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gaza, Sep 8 (EFE).- The Gaza Strip has turned to desalination after grappling with scarce access to water for years amid a stiff Israeli blockade and a flailing economy.
“Desalination is the only way to obtain drinking water, we have no other option,” Ahmed Robae, the director at Gaza’s largest desalination plant, tells EFE as he checks several pipes."
'LH and Iran are creating the expectation in the information environment that LH will escalate against Israel on or around November 3, possibly by increasing the rate of attack or by using more advanced systems.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian traveled to Qatar for further political coordination with Hamas leadership.'( ibid)
posted by clavdivs at 9:04 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
okay this is what i'm talking about when i ask what an accepted hamas surrender looks like: clawsoon's last comment
this seems to be the government/military of israel, or gallant as a representative of the government/military, making a clear (well, clear-ish) statement of what a hamas surrender looks like.
the idf's stated goal is for neither israel nor hamas controlling gaza, and israel doesn't care who actually does control it so long as they're the ones who get to make the decision. they'll find someone to take it off their hands while they're killing people who resist the temporary occupation. whoever they pick will be "better," though currently there's no sense of israel's rubric for assessing betterness (like, better for whom? better for everyone or better for israel?)
the idf plan seems to preclude the possibility of surrender before the completion of the "third" phase of the war, which will take several months. the surrender (or something tantamount to surrender) can/will only happen during the "fourth" phase, the one where the idf extricates itself from gaza and passes it off to the successor power they decide on. the impossibility of surrender before the end of the third phase is either rooted in a belief that the statement of a member of the hamas political bureau is accurate and that hamas will always insist that it's impossible for either hamas or israel to surrender, or in a belief that no hamas surrender can be accepted before the end of the third phase, or some combination of both.
there is in that statement from gallant no clear indication of how long the fourth phase is expected to last, but it's known that the third phase will last several months. there is also no indication of what happens to the hamas soldiers or leadership who surrender. i think this is [omitted/not a concern] due to the perceived-or-real impossibility of surrender before the completion of the "rooting out" in the third phase.
i'm just going to go ahead and insist that my insistence on focusing on what a surrender looks like and when and how a surrender is possible is an extremely valuable project, since the possibility of surrender and the structure of surrender determines when the bombs that fall on buildings where people live and make the buildings non-buildings and the people ex-people stop doing that. both sides, wait, hang on, i've got to do the thing i do whenever i mention both sides:
⋆✧ 🎀 𝒷💞𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 ✧⋆
seem to be holding their senses of what surrender means close to their chests. hamas is bombastically demanding total annihilation of israel without possibility of surrender on either side (which is of course a statement issued for military tactical/strategical reasons rather than because it's cold truth) and israel isn't considering the possibility of surrender but instead has set out a timeline for the obliteration of their military opponents, which is a military measure meant to indicate their certainty that their plan will go off like clockwork and to indicate their sense that hamas's leadership either can't or won't surrender before the obliteration happens.
for my part i deeply wish that israel would lay out extremely detailed plans for what surrender means, with particularly clear explanations of the structure of post-hamas gaza will be, clear indications of the timeline for idf occupation, etc. etc. also i wish hamas would shut up about obliterizing israel, but since they're the weaker party with the desperate people in their territory i do judge them less for what they're saying. i dunno, feel free to judge me for that.
anyway, as a dummy who knows nothing what i really really really wish was that israel's line on surrender were more like "we are moving our armies out immediately after the surrender and then people wearing blue hats move in and they figure it out in collaboration with the people of gaza" but i am a naïve person who still despite it all, despite it all, still loves the people in blue hats and kind of wish they ran everything everywhere, or at least ran gaza and jerusalem. yes i know this is an impossibility for dozens of reasons, including the fact that no one involved loves the people in blue hats like i do and the fact that the people in blue hats aren't set up to do anything of the sort and also the fact that the people in blue hats can't do a damned thing at all unless the united states and the other permanent members of the blue hat decision guys council give them permission.
anyway, my naïvety aside, i wish very much a lot that israel's messaging and actions right now were devoted to propagandizing the people of gaza, and structuring their plans (both stated and real) around what makes that easiest. no one will believe them, of course, but it's still valuable to try, and if they actually did it we'd be two and three fourths of a step toward not having all this rockety rockety bomby bomby shooty shooty people become ex-people and buildings become ex-buildings stuff happen every ten years or so.
okay, i admit it, i didn't do a very good job there of setting aside my naïvety.
anyway. thinking about a surrender and what it might look like is if nothing else a pretty good way to cheer oneself up very slightly and to escape the psychological loop we're in where we, just like the combatants on oh god i've got to say it again don't i
･ﾟ🌠 🎀 𝒷💍𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 🌠ﾟ･
apparently think that the only possible outcome is murderation until obliterization.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
this seems to be the government/military of israel, or gallant as a representative of the government/military, making a clear (well, clear-ish) statement of what a hamas surrender looks like.
the idf's stated goal is for neither israel nor hamas controlling gaza, and israel doesn't care who actually does control it so long as they're the ones who get to make the decision. they'll find someone to take it off their hands while they're killing people who resist the temporary occupation. whoever they pick will be "better," though currently there's no sense of israel's rubric for assessing betterness (like, better for whom? better for everyone or better for israel?)
the idf plan seems to preclude the possibility of surrender before the completion of the "third" phase of the war, which will take several months. the surrender (or something tantamount to surrender) can/will only happen during the "fourth" phase, the one where the idf extricates itself from gaza and passes it off to the successor power they decide on. the impossibility of surrender before the end of the third phase is either rooted in a belief that the statement of a member of the hamas political bureau is accurate and that hamas will always insist that it's impossible for either hamas or israel to surrender, or in a belief that no hamas surrender can be accepted before the end of the third phase, or some combination of both.
there is in that statement from gallant no clear indication of how long the fourth phase is expected to last, but it's known that the third phase will last several months. there is also no indication of what happens to the hamas soldiers or leadership who surrender. i think this is [omitted/not a concern] due to the perceived-or-real impossibility of surrender before the completion of the "rooting out" in the third phase.
i'm just going to go ahead and insist that my insistence on focusing on what a surrender looks like and when and how a surrender is possible is an extremely valuable project, since the possibility of surrender and the structure of surrender determines when the bombs that fall on buildings where people live and make the buildings non-buildings and the people ex-people stop doing that. both sides, wait, hang on, i've got to do the thing i do whenever i mention both sides:
⋆✧ 🎀 𝒷💞𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 ✧⋆
seem to be holding their senses of what surrender means close to their chests. hamas is bombastically demanding total annihilation of israel without possibility of surrender on either side (which is of course a statement issued for military tactical/strategical reasons rather than because it's cold truth) and israel isn't considering the possibility of surrender but instead has set out a timeline for the obliteration of their military opponents, which is a military measure meant to indicate their certainty that their plan will go off like clockwork and to indicate their sense that hamas's leadership either can't or won't surrender before the obliteration happens.
for my part i deeply wish that israel would lay out extremely detailed plans for what surrender means, with particularly clear explanations of the structure of post-hamas gaza will be, clear indications of the timeline for idf occupation, etc. etc. also i wish hamas would shut up about obliterizing israel, but since they're the weaker party with the desperate people in their territory i do judge them less for what they're saying. i dunno, feel free to judge me for that.
anyway, as a dummy who knows nothing what i really really really wish was that israel's line on surrender were more like "we are moving our armies out immediately after the surrender and then people wearing blue hats move in and they figure it out in collaboration with the people of gaza" but i am a naïve person who still despite it all, despite it all, still loves the people in blue hats and kind of wish they ran everything everywhere, or at least ran gaza and jerusalem. yes i know this is an impossibility for dozens of reasons, including the fact that no one involved loves the people in blue hats like i do and the fact that the people in blue hats aren't set up to do anything of the sort and also the fact that the people in blue hats can't do a damned thing at all unless the united states and the other permanent members of the blue hat decision guys council give them permission.
anyway, my naïvety aside, i wish very much a lot that israel's messaging and actions right now were devoted to propagandizing the people of gaza, and structuring their plans (both stated and real) around what makes that easiest. no one will believe them, of course, but it's still valuable to try, and if they actually did it we'd be two and three fourths of a step toward not having all this rockety rockety bomby bomby shooty shooty people become ex-people and buildings become ex-buildings stuff happen every ten years or so.
okay, i admit it, i didn't do a very good job there of setting aside my naïvety.
anyway. thinking about a surrender and what it might look like is if nothing else a pretty good way to cheer oneself up very slightly and to escape the psychological loop we're in where we, just like the combatants on oh god i've got to say it again don't i
･ﾟ🌠 🎀 𝒷💍𝓉𝒽 𝓈𝒾𝒹𝑒𝓈 🎀 🌠ﾟ･
apparently think that the only possible outcome is murderation until obliterization.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
All I will say, b.l.p., is that there is a reason that Israel is not laying out terms of a surrender and is instead bombing Gaza into oblivion, and the reason is not because they've forgotten to put it on their to-do list.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:29 AM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:29 AM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
indeed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:31 AM on November 1, 2023
AOC:
"AIPAC endorsed scores of Jan 6th insurrectionists. They are no friend to American democracy.
They are one of the more racist and bigoted PACs in Congress as well, who disproportionately target members of color.
They are an extremist organization that destabilizes US democracy."
This is a sea change in US politics about Israel-Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
"AIPAC endorsed scores of Jan 6th insurrectionists. They are no friend to American democracy.
They are one of the more racist and bigoted PACs in Congress as well, who disproportionately target members of color.
They are an extremist organization that destabilizes US democracy."
This is a sea change in US politics about Israel-Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:36 AM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The displacement of Palestinians and the growth of settlements—these are two processes that go hand in hand. This is not about this government, this is not about Netanyahu or his ministers. This is an Israeli project that has been unfolding under left, right, and center governments. Each and every one of them have been doing exactly this since 1967. Let’s not be ahistorical. That is a key part of understanding what is unfolding here. Because if there’s a sense that somehow this is about, as I said before, “bad settlers” or this is somehow about a specific individual who has been Prime Minister for a long time, then we’re missing the bigger picture.Hagai El-Ad interviewed by Isaac Chotiner on what is happening in the West Bank.
posted by ssg at 9:49 AM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Well, yes. Experts have been saying this. With little effect.
Excerpts--towards a summary--from Artful Codger's link, emphases mine. (I was surprised to see something like this on CNN.com.)
Excerpts--towards a summary--from Artful Codger's link, emphases mine. (I was surprised to see something like this on CNN.com.)
To defeat terrorist groups like Hamas, it is important to separate the terrorists from the local population from which they emerge.posted by kensington314 at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Although the principle — of separating the terror group from the broader population — is simple, it is incredibly difficult to achieve in practice.
This is why Israel and the United States have waged major military operations that killed large numbers of existing terrorists in the near term — but ultimately led to the rise of many more terrorists, often in a matter of months.
American forces completely defeated Saddam Hussein’s army within 6 weeks. However, these heavy military operations led to the largest suicide terrorist campaign in modern times, a major civil war in Iraq and ultimately, the rise of ISIS.
In Gaza, this tragic pattern is probably already happening. Right now, we are witnessing not the separation of Hamas and the local population, but the growing integration of the two, with likely growing recruitment for Hamas.
To defeat terrorist groups, it is crucial to engage in long campaigns of selective pressure, over years, not simply a month (or two, or three) of heavy ground operations, and to combine military operations with political solutions from early on.
Indeed, the very effort to finish off the terrorists in just a month or two militarily with little idea of the political outcome — as Israel appears to be doing now — is what ends up producing more terrorists than it kills.
There is an alternative: now, not later, start the political process toward a pathway to a Palestinian state, and create a viable political alternative for Palestinians to Hamas.
This could, over time, separate Hamas from the local population more and more, and so lead to significant success. It must be the Palestinians who decide who leads Gaza.
This new strategic conception is the best way to defeat Hamas, secure Israel’s population and advance America’s interests in the region.
Robert A. Pape is a professor of political science and director of the University of Chicago Project on Security and Threats. He is the author of several books on air power and terrorism, including “Bombing to Win: Air Power and Coercion in War.”
AOC's tweet seems a rather strange line of attack, avoiding the substance of what AIPAC actually lobbies for.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:50 AM on November 1, 2023
Many months of high-intensity warfare, followed by many months of low-intensity warfare, followed by some blanks to be filled in later.
Yeah, and those blanks - the lack of a clear end strategy from Netanyahu and his pals - is interfering with the military operation, according to this Ha'aretz analysis on Monday: What Is Israel’s Endgame in Gaza? These Are the Three Key Dilemmas (archive):
A senior security official complained over the weekend that the situation Israel wants to see in Gaza after the fighting ends has major implications for planning the ground maneuvers. The government’s reluctance to deal with this leaves the IDF and Defense Ministry to try to define these objectives, even though it should be the cabinet’s decision. With the ground offensive now underway, the generals have little choice but to guess what Israel’s endgame in Gaza will be.
Of course, we know exactly what end game the far-right racists in Netanyahu's coalition want to see:
Religious far-right ministers are not yet speaking of this openly but seven months ago, when the coalition passed the abolition of the Disengagement Law (largely a symbolic move) in the Knesset, National Missions Minister Orit Strock said in an interview that “there is no doubt that [the Gaza Strip] is part of the land of Israel and there will be a day when we return to it.”
The far right understands that talking about this now will cause public anger. However, in one of the expanded security cabinet meetings, extremist National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir stated: “We need to hold on to the territory.”
[...] We’ve learned the hard way that nothing is out of question for the most extreme government in Israel’s history. But it’s hard to see how any of these proposals can become policy in an era where Israel has become more dependent than ever on the United States. None of these ideas are in any way being considered or taken seriously in the defense establishment. Any move toward long-term occupation of parts of the Gaza Strip, let alone rebuilding some of the settlements there, would lead to Israel’s diplomatic isolation and the cessation of U.S. support. Just talking about these ideas is damaging enough to Israel.
I really don't know about that last part. Would Biden really cut off all U.S. military aid if Israel decides to build new settlements in Gaza? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, the article is long but worth a read as it goes on to discuss the practical dilemmas involved, one of which is this:
It is highly unlikely that the handover can take place directly from the IDF to the PA. Abbas will not be prepared to be seen as returning to Gaza on Israel’s bayonets. In addition, the PA’s security apparatus will not be able to take over the entire Gaza Strip in one go and will need time to gradually deploy, as well as recruiting and training more men. There will have to be another force in Gaza, providing security in the interim and helping the PA build up.
One of the key questions that is already being asked quietly is whether, among the Arab governments with which Israel has relations, any will be prepared to contribute to a “peacekeeping force” that will manage the transition.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah, and those blanks - the lack of a clear end strategy from Netanyahu and his pals - is interfering with the military operation, according to this Ha'aretz analysis on Monday: What Is Israel’s Endgame in Gaza? These Are the Three Key Dilemmas (archive):
A senior security official complained over the weekend that the situation Israel wants to see in Gaza after the fighting ends has major implications for planning the ground maneuvers. The government’s reluctance to deal with this leaves the IDF and Defense Ministry to try to define these objectives, even though it should be the cabinet’s decision. With the ground offensive now underway, the generals have little choice but to guess what Israel’s endgame in Gaza will be.
Of course, we know exactly what end game the far-right racists in Netanyahu's coalition want to see:
Religious far-right ministers are not yet speaking of this openly but seven months ago, when the coalition passed the abolition of the Disengagement Law (largely a symbolic move) in the Knesset, National Missions Minister Orit Strock said in an interview that “there is no doubt that [the Gaza Strip] is part of the land of Israel and there will be a day when we return to it.”
The far right understands that talking about this now will cause public anger. However, in one of the expanded security cabinet meetings, extremist National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir stated: “We need to hold on to the territory.”
[...] We’ve learned the hard way that nothing is out of question for the most extreme government in Israel’s history. But it’s hard to see how any of these proposals can become policy in an era where Israel has become more dependent than ever on the United States. None of these ideas are in any way being considered or taken seriously in the defense establishment. Any move toward long-term occupation of parts of the Gaza Strip, let alone rebuilding some of the settlements there, would lead to Israel’s diplomatic isolation and the cessation of U.S. support. Just talking about these ideas is damaging enough to Israel.
I really don't know about that last part. Would Biden really cut off all U.S. military aid if Israel decides to build new settlements in Gaza? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, the article is long but worth a read as it goes on to discuss the practical dilemmas involved, one of which is this:
It is highly unlikely that the handover can take place directly from the IDF to the PA. Abbas will not be prepared to be seen as returning to Gaza on Israel’s bayonets. In addition, the PA’s security apparatus will not be able to take over the entire Gaza Strip in one go and will need time to gradually deploy, as well as recruiting and training more men. There will have to be another force in Gaza, providing security in the interim and helping the PA build up.
One of the key questions that is already being asked quietly is whether, among the Arab governments with which Israel has relations, any will be prepared to contribute to a “peacekeeping force” that will manage the transition.
posted by mediareport at 9:51 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
> All I will say, b.l.p., is that there is a reason that Israel is not laying out terms of a surrender
okay i wanna say a little more than just "indeed" cause i want to indicate that all my cutesy ultra-voicey stuff is for a purpose and to an end. it is good to imagine what an israel that is definitively, conclusively not doing that looks like. and feel free to put whichever word comes to the top of your mind in the place of "that." anyway it's good to try to imagine what an israel that's not doing whatever word you're thinking looks like, and assessing the differences between that imagined israel and the non-imagined israel can be a means to more clearly seeing what the real israel is doing and the extent to which the real non-imagined israel is that-doing or not-that-doing.
and fuck it all i don't know about you but the only way i can get my imagination to work that way is by thinking in the language of an extraordinarily precocious child who might be from outer space, because god damn it's hard to get an adult earthling aged-out-of-precocity-a-long-time-ago mind to think that it'll ever end and that it'll ever stop happening every ten years or so.
tl;dr: indeed. bombastic lowercase pronouncements out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2023
okay i wanna say a little more than just "indeed" cause i want to indicate that all my cutesy ultra-voicey stuff is for a purpose and to an end. it is good to imagine what an israel that is definitively, conclusively not doing that looks like. and feel free to put whichever word comes to the top of your mind in the place of "that." anyway it's good to try to imagine what an israel that's not doing whatever word you're thinking looks like, and assessing the differences between that imagined israel and the non-imagined israel can be a means to more clearly seeing what the real israel is doing and the extent to which the real non-imagined israel is that-doing or not-that-doing.
and fuck it all i don't know about you but the only way i can get my imagination to work that way is by thinking in the language of an extraordinarily precocious child who might be from outer space, because god damn it's hard to get an adult earthling aged-out-of-precocity-a-long-time-ago mind to think that it'll ever end and that it'll ever stop happening every ten years or so.
tl;dr: indeed. bombastic lowercase pronouncements out.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:54 AM on November 1, 2023
More evidence that Israel is working various angles to get Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egypt: Israel reportedly proposed writing off Egypt's debts [via World Bank] for hosting Gaza refugees.
posted by coffeecat at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 10:01 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Thanks mediareport. In my own naive and under-informed view, a durable two-state solution would need the backing and support of the Arab nations, including peacekeeping responsibilities.
This seems to be just another pipedream that has become even less likely at this time.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
This seems to be just another pipedream that has become even less likely at this time.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
More evidence that Israel is working various angles to get Palestinians out of Gaza and into Egyp
You mean "ethnically cleanse Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
You mean "ethnically cleanse Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
AP: Israeli airstrikes hit apartment buildings in a refugee camp near Gaza City for a second day in a row
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
get Palestinians out
at least (and literally) expulsion, with those historical echoes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
at least (and literally) expulsion, with those historical echoes.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:23 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can we not nitpick people's language? I shared that link because mediareport's last post reminded me of it - I assumed it would be pretty clear in the context of this thread that pressuring Egypt to accept refugees is akin to expulsion.
posted by coffeecat at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 10:44 AM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just in case anyone is still wondering why not all Jews (especially those on the left) feel Israel is a safe place, let alone a home:
Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four
Hundreds Involved in Attacking Arabs and Leftists, but Israel Police Arrest Only Four
Hundreds of right-wing activists have engaged in violent attacks on Israeli Arabs and left-wing activists since the start of the war with Hamas, but Israel Police have detained only four suspects.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
The small number of arrests is despite the fact that many incidents have been filmed, and the perpetrator's faces are easily identified. In the two incidents that have led to arrests, the suspects were detained on the spot and not as the result of a police investigation, which, as history shows, rarely leads to indictments.
Three of those who were arrested were among hundreds of people, including members of La Familia, allegedly involved in storming Sheba Hospital on October 11. They had arrived at the hospital after hearing baseless reports that the medical center had been treating terrorists in the wake of the October 7 attacks.
[ . . . ]
Frey, a Haredi leftist, had been targeted after a video was posted of him saying Kaddish (the Jewish mourners' prayer) for all the victims of the war, including hundreds of women and children in Gaza.
Frey said he was escorted by police officers from his home to his car, but was then left alone to flee, chased by rightist extremists to the Ichilov Hospital in Tel Aviv, where he took shelter while some of the attackers waited for him outside.
When Americans and others think refugee camp they probably have something much different in mind that the Jabalya refugee camp. This isn’t a tent city or a bunch of trailers. Jabalya is more accurately thought of as a city founded by refugees. Many of the buildings are 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing. lots of that vintage brutalist architecture used for public housing projects in the Americas and Europe. Complete with all the usual problems of that model of development. If you’re in your imagination Gaza is a prison; then Jabalya is probably comes closest to that.
High poverty, joblessness and violence make this a fertile recruiting ground for Hamas and other militant groups. Its pre October 7th population density was about 49,000 people per square kilometers.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
posted by interogative mood at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
High poverty, joblessness and violence make this a fertile recruiting ground for Hamas and other militant groups. Its pre October 7th population density was about 49,000 people per square kilometers.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
posted by interogative mood at 12:50 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think we know that it's densely populated? And instead of using that as an excuse for civilian deaths, we're horrified that there have been multiple air strikes against it, regardless of whether it's a "fertile recruiting ground". Honestly, that sentence sounds very dog-whistle-esque.
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by sagc at 12:57 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
You gotta stop this apologia. No one is buying what you are selling.
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
Yeahh....dropping six huge fucking bombs isn't a battle its a massacre.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
Yeahh....dropping six huge fucking bombs isn't a battle its a massacre.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [12 favorites]
hey, give the audience what they want, don't forget to add in previous greatest hits like "israel's response has actually been quite restrained" and "netenyahu isn't the commander of hamas" before ignoring all replies and moving on to the new material
posted by Flunkie at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 1:17 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
Isn't there some kind of script or something you can use to ignore a member? I looked on MeFi Wiki but couldn't find it, but I think I've heard people talk about this add-on?
posted by kensington314 at 1:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 1:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mods have asked multiple times for commentary in this thread not to keep circling back to direct arguments with other Mefites. I get that some of you seem to have a personal problem with certain other members but seriously, if you don't like a comment, flag and move on. This is just starting to look like bullying, frankly.
posted by fight or flight at 1:27 PM on November 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 1:27 PM on November 1, 2023 [20 favorites]
ugh i keep getting sucked back in.
so it strikes me that there are two parallel conversations in play:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
so it strikes me that there are two parallel conversations in play:
- the dispute over whether or not israel's army and air force are doing that
- the dispute about whether or not it's sadly necessary that israel's army and air force do that
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
It doesn't matter how nice the building you live in is when it's destroyed and your family members are killed. Literally no one is going to be less sympathetic to Gazans on the basis that they don't live in tents and they can have nice things. When people describe Gaza as a prison they are not picturing Alcatraz. Quality of life is not measured by whether you can go to an ice cream store or have a cell phone. It is measured by the freedom to pursue your own ends without worrying about your safety or the fulfillment of your needs. Life in Gaza does not come close to meeting that standard.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 1:32 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
i'm pretty hung up on the buildings, and i'm not sure why. maybe it's because without the buildings there's a lot less hope for the people who are alive but not living in their buildings anymore. but also maybe it's because i've recently bought a house and am beyond horrified that the idea that my house might get exploded and all the stuff inside it too, like my computer and tv and toys like that, and my pots and pans, and my cutlery, and my diaries and the cool poster that's like a wpa-era national parks poster but it's for san junipero, and a concert poster from the tour where janelle monae opened for of montreal (isn't that absurd?) and the desk-drawer notepads i keep bad fiction i never quite get around to writing enough of in, and my silly little dog with long fur (a luxurious double coat, in fact) and stubby little legs and a fantail that wags and wags and she spins around and sneezes when she's happy and she's pretty happy most of the time, and she always always always wants me to play with her, any time day or night, morning or evening, and she gets bored of fetch but she loves it when i hold her favorite little rag toy and make her chase it in circles and figure eights, and seeing her was maybe the #1 thing that got my students to pay attention to online classes during the worst of the pandemic, whenever she showed up in the room behind me the chat would immediately fill up with people saying "dog dog dog dog dog!!!!" and "😍😍😍😍😍😍😍 we love you [dog's name]" and people would go get their partners and family members because [dog's name] was on screen.
my house is where i keep all my stuff, basically, and i have a very good and devoted friend who knows four (count 'em, four!) tricks who's always there except when i'm taking her on walks, and most of my money is no longer liquid but instead tied up in the house where i keep all my stuff, and god damn if someone were to drop a bomb on it, even if i weren't there when it happened, i don't know how i'd go on.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:54 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
my house is where i keep all my stuff, basically, and i have a very good and devoted friend who knows four (count 'em, four!) tricks who's always there except when i'm taking her on walks, and most of my money is no longer liquid but instead tied up in the house where i keep all my stuff, and god damn if someone were to drop a bomb on it, even if i weren't there when it happened, i don't know how i'd go on.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:54 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
And also, just think: to be made homeless, with no restitution and no map forward, on the same day that your neighbors were killed, your family, your dog, and by the very same people who made you homeless. How to go on?
posted by kensington314 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 2:05 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I’ve avoided direct responses, but this pile on seems to be getting out of control. I’m describing the places and explaining the present situation as I see it based on my life experiences and education.
Some of you seem to be directing your anger at the present situation at me — as if somehow I have some control over events. Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse. It feels like talking to some stereotypical Reagan Republican from the American Midwest who thinks the film Fort Apache, the Bronx is an accurate depiction of New York City.
posted by interogative mood at 2:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some of you seem to be directing your anger at the present situation at me — as if somehow I have some control over events. Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse. It feels like talking to some stereotypical Reagan Republican from the American Midwest who thinks the film Fort Apache, the Bronx is an accurate depiction of New York City.
posted by interogative mood at 2:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
blp, I think I'm about as removed from what is happening as you are. Mostly life goes on, the presence of what is happening and the thousands of lives affected, it's a presence, but then I turn on a tap for water, I get ready for bed, I open a drawer and retrieve some mundane item. we are left to imagine how circumstances are so different for many others, hopefully we can all at reach least empathy.
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
posted by elkevelvet at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
posted by elkevelvet at 2:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
You are keep using that word, but it really truly does not mean what you think it means, because even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews.
this is kind of a psychotic thing to post.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
this is kind of a psychotic thing to post.
posted by Sebmojo at 2:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
> Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse
here's gaza city center on google maps, it's a big mall. the reviews say that you can buy very pretty women's clothes there, and it looks like you can rent wedding dresses too, but be warned that everything is expensive or so say several reviewers. it's often very busy, but everyone agrees that the view from the top floors is gorgeous. four months ago reviewer ariel pak described it as "so fun." google says it opens at 9:30 am, but i doubt that and even if it did open at 9:30 am or at all it would still be a pretty bad day to go i think.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
here's gaza city center on google maps, it's a big mall. the reviews say that you can buy very pretty women's clothes there, and it looks like you can rent wedding dresses too, but be warned that everything is expensive or so say several reviewers. it's often very busy, but everyone agrees that the view from the top floors is gorgeous. four months ago reviewer ariel pak described it as "so fun." google says it opens at 9:30 am, but i doubt that and even if it did open at 9:30 am or at all it would still be a pretty bad day to go i think.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 2:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews
By this logic, the Holocaust wasn't a genocide because there were over four million Jews in the USA in 1942. Are you even aware of what you're actually saying? Fucksake.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
By this logic, the Holocaust wasn't a genocide because there were over four million Jews in the USA in 1942. Are you even aware of what you're actually saying? Fucksake.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
and beyond empathy, take some action to do *something* to lessen the burden somehow, for someone. do what you can, because nothing you do will be enough. I'm at best culturally a Christian, I am a member of a church, and a friend and fellow member said the thing they do as a Christian is to recognize suffering and try to alleviate suffering.
One thing we can all do is give what we can, even if it's small, to Doctors Without Borders.
posted by kensington314 at 2:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
One thing we can all do is give what we can, even if it's small, to Doctors Without Borders.
posted by kensington314 at 2:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
it's possible that many of us understand that Gaza is (was?) "normal" in many ways and still feel like that does not erase the fact that the people in Gaza are and were oppressed, even as they surfed and went to the mall. Their joy does not invalidate their suffering.
posted by JimBennett at 2:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by JimBennett at 2:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
JimBennett, editing your comments to remove the insults and attacks against other members is neither big nor clever. Just in case you think that nobody saw that.
posted by fight or flight at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fight or flight at 2:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't think it's big or clever, I just decided I wanted to say something more constructive. How I feel about the user in question is less relevant than how I feel about the strife of Palestinians.
posted by JimBennett at 2:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by JimBennett at 2:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
interogative mood, the first I personally took particular notice of you "avoiding direct responses" was when you posted that people talking about Israelis as colonizers were antisemitic. I think a lot of what's been going on for a long time in the "settlements" is pretty textbook "colonization", so I said so, and asked if you believe that I am antisemitic because of that.
No response.
You made a blanket accusation of antisemitism that seemed consistent with calling me, among many others, an antisemiite, because of an opinion that I hold that seems to me to be reasonable and true. When asked about it to clarify whether you really do believe that I am an antisemite because of that opinion, no response.
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way. You just ignore "that's misleading and here's why", and go on to your next misleading comment. And you make a whole lot of misleading (and/or inflammatory) comments.
Perhaps this is why people have gotten upset with you? I know it's why I'm upset with you. I am not upset with you due to supposedly being "upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy", as you claim to believe. I am upset with you because over and over and over, for two threads now, you sure seem to be constantly and consistently arguing in bad faith.
I'll shut up about you after this post. I first want to say, though, that I am, in general, not a fan of moderation-by-deletion, but I feel like if the mods are going to use that to enforce "Don't express annoyance at other members for things they have said", they should also keep an eye out for people who have constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith, leading others to being annoyed at them for constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith.
Or, I dunno, yeah, maybe it's just that I'm upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy. You're right, that's probably it.
posted by Flunkie at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
No response.
You made a blanket accusation of antisemitism that seemed consistent with calling me, among many others, an antisemiite, because of an opinion that I hold that seems to me to be reasonable and true. When asked about it to clarify whether you really do believe that I am an antisemite because of that opinion, no response.
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way. You just ignore "that's misleading and here's why", and go on to your next misleading comment. And you make a whole lot of misleading (and/or inflammatory) comments.
Perhaps this is why people have gotten upset with you? I know it's why I'm upset with you. I am not upset with you due to supposedly being "upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy", as you claim to believe. I am upset with you because over and over and over, for two threads now, you sure seem to be constantly and consistently arguing in bad faith.
I'll shut up about you after this post. I first want to say, though, that I am, in general, not a fan of moderation-by-deletion, but I feel like if the mods are going to use that to enforce "Don't express annoyance at other members for things they have said", they should also keep an eye out for people who have constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith, leading others to being annoyed at them for constantly and consistently been posting in bad faith.
Or, I dunno, yeah, maybe it's just that I'm upset that anyone in Gaza could have experienced joy. You're right, that's probably it.
posted by Flunkie at 2:44 PM on November 1, 2023 [19 favorites]
Any battle in Jabalya is going to have very high civilian casualties.
That is why, when you have the option, you should choose to not have a "battle" in Jabalya.
Israel has that option.
Especially if the "battle" involves dropping bombs from a great height onto poor, jobless people in 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
That is why, when you have the option, you should choose to not have a "battle" in Jabalya.
Israel has that option.
Especially if the "battle" involves dropping bombs from a great height onto poor, jobless people in 1950s-1960s era multistory concrete block housing.
posted by delfin at 2:46 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
Mod note: Brief reminder folks - do not edit comments in substantive ways particularly in fast-moving threads. People who don't reload the thread will not see your changes and may respond to things no one else can read. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:52 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:52 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
i'm pretty hung up on the buildings, and i'm not sure why. maybe it's because without the buildings there's a lot less hope for the people who are alive but not living in their buildings anymore.
There's a common refrain that some people (not anyone here in particular) voice when a natural disaster wipes out impoverished areas and cries for immediate aid arise. Severe flooding in areas prone to flooding, severe drought in areas prone to drought, hurricanes, earthquakes, whatever.
"Why don't they evacuate? If it's so terrible there, and this happens over and over, why don't they just move somewhere better?"
Not everyone has family in a distant place ready to take them in. Not everyone has a nest egg set aside for a rainy day, because it got spent thirteen rainy days ago and they've been trying to catch up ever since. Not everyone has transportation, not everyone has a job to go to somewhere else, not everyone has the physical or legal ability to pack up their shit and go. Certainly, not everyone in those circumstances can find a buyer who could give them anything substantial.
Sometimes, a spot in a brutalist apartment building in a refugee city in an impoverished territory is all you have that you can point to and say "that belongs to me."
So when a flyer wafts down saying "Your government has attacked us, so we are going to attack you, get out now," and you know that if you leave, that one thing that is yours may well vanish without any compensation, what can you choose to do?
Catch-22, Joseph Heller's magnum opus, contains a passage that restates its title concept in its most primal form. Poor people are driven into the streets by force by soldiers and given "Catch-22" as the justification. When Yossarian demands to know what they meant by Catch-22, one of them replies:
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
That is what it must feel like to know that you did not participate in Hamas's attacks, that you did not kill or maim or kidnap anyone, but that you are very likely to pay the price for them at any given moment. All you can hope is that if they know that you and thousands like you are remaining there, that there is a decent chance that a flicker of humanity will keep them from simply erasing you.
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to, in an instant, realize that you were wrong about that.
posted by delfin at 3:12 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
There's a common refrain that some people (not anyone here in particular) voice when a natural disaster wipes out impoverished areas and cries for immediate aid arise. Severe flooding in areas prone to flooding, severe drought in areas prone to drought, hurricanes, earthquakes, whatever.
"Why don't they evacuate? If it's so terrible there, and this happens over and over, why don't they just move somewhere better?"
Not everyone has family in a distant place ready to take them in. Not everyone has a nest egg set aside for a rainy day, because it got spent thirteen rainy days ago and they've been trying to catch up ever since. Not everyone has transportation, not everyone has a job to go to somewhere else, not everyone has the physical or legal ability to pack up their shit and go. Certainly, not everyone in those circumstances can find a buyer who could give them anything substantial.
Sometimes, a spot in a brutalist apartment building in a refugee city in an impoverished territory is all you have that you can point to and say "that belongs to me."
So when a flyer wafts down saying "Your government has attacked us, so we are going to attack you, get out now," and you know that if you leave, that one thing that is yours may well vanish without any compensation, what can you choose to do?
Catch-22, Joseph Heller's magnum opus, contains a passage that restates its title concept in its most primal form. Poor people are driven into the streets by force by soldiers and given "Catch-22" as the justification. When Yossarian demands to know what they meant by Catch-22, one of them replies:
"Catch-22 says they have a right to do anything we can't stop them from doing."
That is what it must feel like to know that you did not participate in Hamas's attacks, that you did not kill or maim or kidnap anyone, but that you are very likely to pay the price for them at any given moment. All you can hope is that if they know that you and thousands like you are remaining there, that there is a decent chance that a flicker of humanity will keep them from simply erasing you.
I cannot imagine what it must feel like to, in an instant, realize that you were wrong about that.
posted by delfin at 3:12 PM on November 1, 2023 [17 favorites]
even if Netanyahu and the IDF were the cackling villains they're accused of being, it would be mathematically impossible for them to eliminate Palestinians in Gaza the way the Nazis tried to eliminate Jews
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article: The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False.
posted by ssg at 3:19 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article: The Decolonization Narrative Is Dangerous and False.
posted by ssg at 3:19 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
FWIW, this comment is a pretty close paraphrase of the argument made in that (terrible) Atlantic article
That right there is some galaxy-brain thinking along the lines of "Arabs are Semitic, therefore Palestinians are Semites and Israel is antisemitic, checkmate, Zionists".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
That right there is some galaxy-brain thinking along the lines of "Arabs are Semitic, therefore Palestinians are Semites and Israel is antisemitic, checkmate, Zionists".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:31 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some of you seem genuinely upset that anyone in Gaza could have experience joy or that there were periods where things were getting better and times like now where they get worse.
Palestinians in Gaza aren't hamsters. Just because its possible in Gaza to have something approaching "comfort" and maybe even pleasure doesn't offset the facts of their precarious existence and the grind of a lifetime of displacement and oppression. Do you believe that absent Hamas, they'd be happy with their situation?
Don't just take my word for this.
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
posted by Artful Codger at 3:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Palestinians in Gaza aren't hamsters. Just because its possible in Gaza to have something approaching "comfort" and maybe even pleasure doesn't offset the facts of their precarious existence and the grind of a lifetime of displacement and oppression. Do you believe that absent Hamas, they'd be happy with their situation?
Don't just take my word for this.
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
posted by Artful Codger at 3:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [9 favorites]
Maybe don't make this thread about the individual users whose ideology frustrate you. However you view the unfolding events we're witnessing together, is that what you really think is important?
MeFi is already a rarified environment. Let's not suck the remaining oxygen out of the room indicting each other to absolutely no greater effect. Winning arguments here (if that's even possible) will not influence how history is written.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
MeFi is already a rarified environment. Let's not suck the remaining oxygen out of the room indicting each other to absolutely no greater effect. Winning arguments here (if that's even possible) will not influence how history is written.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:49 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
The people of Gaza have been repressed by Hamas on a far more direct and day to day basis than Israel or any outside group. Hamas spews out a constant stream of propaganda via mosques, schools and news that the root cause of their problems was the Zionists/Jews (Hamas uses the term interchangeably) and the existence of Israel. There are a lot of Palestinians who see through this nonsense, but they have no ability to change it and they leave or just keep their head down. There are also a lot of Israeli's who see through the nonsense of Netanyahu's machinations to extend the conflict and have left as well.
Before Hamas came to power and escalated the level violence against Israelis there was a lot more freedom of movement and goods between Egypt, Israel and Gaza. The blockade and sanctions were a response to Hamas' actions. They have been eased at times when Hamas restrains the violence and increased as Hamas ramps up the violence. I don't deny that Netanyahu's machinations have often served to increase the violence; but he isn't the only politician in Israel and there have been other PMs and opportunities. Hamas has been offered an end to the blockade and most sanctions in exchange for renouncing terrorism, committing to negotiations and accepting Israel's right to exist.
After every ceasefire terminating each round of violence in the last 17 years there has been hope that this time Hamas will choose a different path. Aid is provided, housing is rebuilt, restrictions are loosened, life improves for a while. Then it all goes to shit and violence returns bigger and worse than before. The unsettled nature of this conflict and the behavior of the Israeli far right means that there is always some provocation that Hamas can use to turn the crowds into the streets and justify their next attack. It is of course bullshit. The reason they attack is to maintain their power over Gaza. Same reason Netanyahu likes to stir things up in West Bank and Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 3:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Before Hamas came to power and escalated the level violence against Israelis there was a lot more freedom of movement and goods between Egypt, Israel and Gaza. The blockade and sanctions were a response to Hamas' actions. They have been eased at times when Hamas restrains the violence and increased as Hamas ramps up the violence. I don't deny that Netanyahu's machinations have often served to increase the violence; but he isn't the only politician in Israel and there have been other PMs and opportunities. Hamas has been offered an end to the blockade and most sanctions in exchange for renouncing terrorism, committing to negotiations and accepting Israel's right to exist.
After every ceasefire terminating each round of violence in the last 17 years there has been hope that this time Hamas will choose a different path. Aid is provided, housing is rebuilt, restrictions are loosened, life improves for a while. Then it all goes to shit and violence returns bigger and worse than before. The unsettled nature of this conflict and the behavior of the Israeli far right means that there is always some provocation that Hamas can use to turn the crowds into the streets and justify their next attack. It is of course bullshit. The reason they attack is to maintain their power over Gaza. Same reason Netanyahu likes to stir things up in West Bank and Gaza.
posted by interogative mood at 3:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Middle East Eye has a piece about the initial Hamas attack and the hostage negotiations which reportedly fell through when Israel counterattacked on the ground. I can't say how reliable their sources are but it seems to be in line with the theory that Hamas didn't expect to be nearly as successful in the initial attack because they didn't plan for the IDF's gaza division to collapse so completely, and that's largely why there appears to be no plan for what to do now. (on either Hamas' or the Israeli leadership part).
Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
> Far less plausible are Hamas' additional claims they totes only intended military targets and that all the Bad Stuff that followed was totally the other randos who followed them into Israel and not them, they promise.
I'm sure the massacres were by Hamas fighters. I think they didn't expect to get more than a few hostages, and definitely not to overrun any of the IDF bases surrounding gaza. Most probably expected to be shot dead long before they could reach those communities. And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw. October 7th was a horrible day, every news update filled me with dread and disgust. It's been like that every day since.
posted by dis_integration at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm sure the massacres were by Hamas fighters. I think they didn't expect to get more than a few hostages, and definitely not to overrun any of the IDF bases surrounding gaza. Most probably expected to be shot dead long before they could reach those communities. And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw. October 7th was a horrible day, every news update filled me with dread and disgust. It's been like that every day since.
posted by dis_integration at 4:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
An excellent letter in the LRB about the logic and history of hostages and prisoner exchanges between Palestine and Israel: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v45/n21/eyal-weizman/exchange-rate
Folks wondering why international voices aren't calling for the release of hostages might note that "Bezalel Smotrich, Israel’s finance minister, has called for Hamas to be hit ‘mercilessly, without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives’. Gilad Erdan, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, has said that the hostages ‘would not prevent us from doing what we need to do’."
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Folks wondering why international voices aren't calling for the release of hostages might note that "Bezalel Smotrich, Israel’s finance minister, has called for Hamas to be hit ‘mercilessly, without taking into serious consideration the matter of the captives’. Gilad Erdan, Israel’s ambassador to the UN, has said that the hostages ‘would not prevent us from doing what we need to do’."
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't want to join the pile-on, but im, do you have an actual case to make for why the continued bombings of civilians in Gaza are justified?
If they are directly targeting civilians there is no justification. Israel will claim they are not targeting civilians and that they've encouraged civilians to move to safer areas of Gaza and delayed the ground offensive to allow time for people to relocate. Israel will claim that these structures were either adjacent to or contained valid military targets. You must decide if you accept that justification and if you accept that Israel is being honest that they are acting under that justification. I'm sure you can find evidence and poeple who will argue each of the three possibilities: (justified+honest, justified+dishonest, not justified).
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts and that they are probably being mostly honest in their reasoning for targeting these locations. I'm not eager to see it happen or happy about it. I've said many times in these threads that I think their stated objective is impossible and a plan that requires doing something impossible isn't a plan or a strategy.
50,000-80,000 Hamas soldiers + other militants with more than a decades worth of tunnels and bunkers underneath a city (metropolitan area, multiple cities technically) of 2 million people. Consider what it took to defeat 20,000 Japanese soldiers with an elaborate tunnel system on Iwo Jima (no civilians present). The last holdouts didn't surrender until 1949 -- iirc regular attacks on US soldiers outside of safe zones didn't stop until 1946. Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc, but this isn't an isolated pacific island either where resupply and rotating soldiers in and out was impossible. Rafah is next to Gaza and there are 80,000+ people living there. Lots of cover for tunnels and hideouts, even more in Sinai.
Sinai has a lot of wilderness and has been a legendary place for militants to take refuge from the Levant or Egypt for millennia. I assume that even if the Bible's stories flight from Egypt, the retreat of Elijah after the massacre of the priests of Baal, etc are just stories that the authors put the protagonists in Sinai because it had a reputation. Sinai, especially in the south around St Catherines Monastery is some really rough country.
posted by interogative mood at 4:56 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
If they are directly targeting civilians there is no justification. Israel will claim they are not targeting civilians and that they've encouraged civilians to move to safer areas of Gaza and delayed the ground offensive to allow time for people to relocate. Israel will claim that these structures were either adjacent to or contained valid military targets. You must decide if you accept that justification and if you accept that Israel is being honest that they are acting under that justification. I'm sure you can find evidence and poeple who will argue each of the three possibilities: (justified+honest, justified+dishonest, not justified).
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts and that they are probably being mostly honest in their reasoning for targeting these locations. I'm not eager to see it happen or happy about it. I've said many times in these threads that I think their stated objective is impossible and a plan that requires doing something impossible isn't a plan or a strategy.
50,000-80,000 Hamas soldiers + other militants with more than a decades worth of tunnels and bunkers underneath a city (metropolitan area, multiple cities technically) of 2 million people. Consider what it took to defeat 20,000 Japanese soldiers with an elaborate tunnel system on Iwo Jima (no civilians present). The last holdouts didn't surrender until 1949 -- iirc regular attacks on US soldiers outside of safe zones didn't stop until 1946. Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc, but this isn't an isolated pacific island either where resupply and rotating soldiers in and out was impossible. Rafah is next to Gaza and there are 80,000+ people living there. Lots of cover for tunnels and hideouts, even more in Sinai.
Sinai has a lot of wilderness and has been a legendary place for militants to take refuge from the Levant or Egypt for millennia. I assume that even if the Bible's stories flight from Egypt, the retreat of Elijah after the massacre of the priests of Baal, etc are just stories that the authors put the protagonists in Sinai because it had a reputation. Sinai, especially in the south around St Catherines Monastery is some really rough country.
posted by interogative mood at 4:56 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sure humans have come a long way in technology with things like ground penetrating radar and bunker buster bombs, etc,
Yeah, we're really doing great, huh. Just absolutely killing it.
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
The editorial linked above about who is obliged to risk their soldiers to spare civilians was worth a read.
And the Israel that used to be 'feared and respected' was the Israel was that patiently captured and tried Eichmann, or conducted the targeted 'Vengeance' operations after Munich.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah, we're really doing great, huh. Just absolutely killing it.
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
The editorial linked above about who is obliged to risk their soldiers to spare civilians was worth a read.
And the Israel that used to be 'feared and respected' was the Israel was that patiently captured and tried Eichmann, or conducted the targeted 'Vengeance' operations after Munich.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've only made one comment so since this fresh new hell ignited and it's breaking my fucking heart and that one singular comment was:
[This is not good].
I appreciate everyone sharing curated news and links and breaking news, but I think it would be helpful and healthy for there to be a whole lot less less opinions, purity tests and analysis being shared from either side of this conflict and personal attacks.
I don't know how to express this safely or kindly without contradicting what I just said in that last paragraph, but there's a handful of people that are dominating these threads in posting volume and energy and it is absolutely fucking exhausting and I feel sorry for the mods that are dealing with it.
I've been resisting posting my opinions and analysis about these events since it started and, oh dear do I have opinions about it.
Nothing we can say or debate here is really going to change the outcome of what is happening short of voting for change years or decades too late to stop this trainwreck short of general strikes and cross-demographic protests for cease fires, and even then.
At the end of the day and thread all I can really say is I that I wish there was a lot less violence and sectarianism being justified in the name or service of any religion of any kind anywhere, and/or in the service of the whole concept of land ownership and birthright.
Speaking personally, neither of those motives for violence are spiritual or close to or in touch with any God, Goddess or any higher spiritual function or plane to me and I'm so sick and tired of any of this religious and/or ethnically motivated or justified violence and warfare.
There is so much energy and implied or implicit violence and nihilistic fatalism in these breaking news threads. Everyone had opinions and feelings about it.
Everyone wants to try to help and talk about why this is happening or why they think it is happening, still happening, and will happen in the future.
Not enough people are actually listening or doing anything that's functionally useful, kind or gentle and we're really just all just lashing out at each other because we feel so powerless to stop any of it.
For one of the few moments in my life I don't feel that have any effective suggestions, here.
I just want to ask people to really think about what they want and need to say and how they (and we) say it and try to be as kind and as peaceful as anyone can be... because it's absolutely exhausting and acrimonious and it's not helping.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
[This is not good].
I appreciate everyone sharing curated news and links and breaking news, but I think it would be helpful and healthy for there to be a whole lot less less opinions, purity tests and analysis being shared from either side of this conflict and personal attacks.
I don't know how to express this safely or kindly without contradicting what I just said in that last paragraph, but there's a handful of people that are dominating these threads in posting volume and energy and it is absolutely fucking exhausting and I feel sorry for the mods that are dealing with it.
I've been resisting posting my opinions and analysis about these events since it started and, oh dear do I have opinions about it.
Nothing we can say or debate here is really going to change the outcome of what is happening short of voting for change years or decades too late to stop this trainwreck short of general strikes and cross-demographic protests for cease fires, and even then.
At the end of the day and thread all I can really say is I that I wish there was a lot less violence and sectarianism being justified in the name or service of any religion of any kind anywhere, and/or in the service of the whole concept of land ownership and birthright.
Speaking personally, neither of those motives for violence are spiritual or close to or in touch with any God, Goddess or any higher spiritual function or plane to me and I'm so sick and tired of any of this religious and/or ethnically motivated or justified violence and warfare.
There is so much energy and implied or implicit violence and nihilistic fatalism in these breaking news threads. Everyone had opinions and feelings about it.
Everyone wants to try to help and talk about why this is happening or why they think it is happening, still happening, and will happen in the future.
Not enough people are actually listening or doing anything that's functionally useful, kind or gentle and we're really just all just lashing out at each other because we feel so powerless to stop any of it.
For one of the few moments in my life I don't feel that have any effective suggestions, here.
I just want to ask people to really think about what they want and need to say and how they (and we) say it and try to be as kind and as peaceful as anyone can be... because it's absolutely exhausting and acrimonious and it's not helping.
posted by loquacious at 5:33 PM on November 1, 2023 [15 favorites]
I wish there was an antifavorite button to signify deep disapproval of a comment without derailing and making the user feel attacked.
posted by dusty potato at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 5:51 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
If that's directed at me, dusty potato, I would accept it.
My inbox is open if you or anyone wants it. I've just been praying for peace and warmth and much less hurt, loss and death. I'm not here for an argument or conflict. It's why I've been trying to be quiet and just listen.
posted by loquacious at 6:48 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
My inbox is open if you or anyone wants it. I've just been praying for peace and warmth and much less hurt, loss and death. I'm not here for an argument or conflict. It's why I've been trying to be quiet and just listen.
posted by loquacious at 6:48 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't know. I'm sure I'm part of the problem. But I'm glad we have this space, as acrimonious as it is, because every other place to talk about it is vastly worse, and having nowhere to talk about it is terrible too. My thoughts and opinions have shifted based on the contributions here. Even the people I've found myself disagreeing with the most have said things that have caused me to think more deeply about why I disagree with them, and sometimes the result of that has been realizing that I don't, actually.
This line in a comment upthread is going to be revolving in my head for a while:
And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw.
What an encapsulation. What a world this sentence contains. There's a specific referent here, and for a moment when I first read this sentence I itched to point out the ways in which this phrasing fails to meet the horror of what it describes. To brutally massacre hundreds and hundreds of civilians, from babies to the elderly, because these human beings didn't know what else to do, because there was no other more specific task in front of them. But that's the reality on both sides of this conflict. The hatred, the dehumanization, the thirst for blood. There are more than enough referents for this sentence wherever you look. It captures the situation perfectly.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
This line in a comment upthread is going to be revolving in my head for a while:
And as they went farther and lived longer than they ever imagined they would, they got caught up in the madness of victory and not knowing what else to do, just started shooting everything they saw.
What an encapsulation. What a world this sentence contains. There's a specific referent here, and for a moment when I first read this sentence I itched to point out the ways in which this phrasing fails to meet the horror of what it describes. To brutally massacre hundreds and hundreds of civilians, from babies to the elderly, because these human beings didn't know what else to do, because there was no other more specific task in front of them. But that's the reality on both sides of this conflict. The hatred, the dehumanization, the thirst for blood. There are more than enough referents for this sentence wherever you look. It captures the situation perfectly.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:53 PM on November 1, 2023 [11 favorites]
Since that time, I've noticed over and over that you "avoid direct responses". Not just, as you've framed it here, in response to people being upset with you, but to pretty much any response that tries to engage with you in some meaningful but disagreeing way.
I'm not the person who this comment was aimed at, but frankly I think more people should be doing this. You can let people be wrong on the internet and it doesn't detract from anything you yourself are saying. Personally I've been trying to do this much more -- express my opinion, but avoid getting into direct back and forths. I fail at that all the time, but it seems like a valuable goal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm not the person who this comment was aimed at, but frankly I think more people should be doing this. You can let people be wrong on the internet and it doesn't detract from anything you yourself are saying. Personally I've been trying to do this much more -- express my opinion, but avoid getting into direct back and forths. I fail at that all the time, but it seems like a valuable goal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I think that Israel is acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts
The back-and-forth arguments about proportionality seems like a Utilitarian vs Kantian (?) morality argument. Just an observation I wanted to make.
Trolley problem: a train is heading down the track and will kill 5 people, is it moral to flip the switch to divert it to a different track so it kills 1 different person instead?
Utilitarians argue that the outcomes matter: 1 death is preferable to 5 deaths, so it would be moral to flip the switch.
Someone else might argue that the act matters more - deliberately targeting and killing an innocent person is wrong, even if you believe the benefits outweigh the harms, so it would be immoral to flip the switch.
So it's basically, do you put more weight on the act, or the outcome?
How is our society built? Western societies have mostly rejected pure utiliarian ethics. Otherwise, it would be moral to execute a healthy person in order to harvest their organs to save 5 people's lives. Yet at the same time many of our policies such as using a progressive tax system to redistribute wealth is utilitarian in nature, so it would seem that we have settled on a mixture.
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters. A "proportional" response by this logic would be committing those same acts back to the people of Gaza, so in their eyes any response they have made so far is "less than proportional".
Hardline detractors of Israel will say, based on a utilitarian view, the number of dead in Gaza is numerically higher than the number of dead in Israel, so this proves that Israel is morally wrong - the numbers matter. A "proportional" response by this logic would be that Israel is free to pursue a military action to defeat Hamas as long as the total deaths don't exceed the 1,400 they suffered, and since the 8,000 deaths on the Gazan side are higher, Israel's response has been "wildly disproportionate".
I think there is a dynamic in online spaces, when confronted with a hardline view, to then take the opposite hardline view to "counter" it for balance, when in reality most people would agree that their own personal views are more nuanced.
To go back to the "norms / rules" established for these kinds of conflicts - the US provides a much higher volume of arms to Saudi Arabia than Israel - $110 billion during the Obama administation (NPR fact check) and the Saudis have been participating in a much more brutal Iran-Saudi proxy conflict - the civil war in Yemen (Wiki), which has resulted in around 377,00 deaths, 80,000 of them children, many of them dead from US weapons.
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations (I'm picking Statistica but most sources seem to be very similar).
posted by xdvesper at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
The back-and-forth arguments about proportionality seems like a Utilitarian vs Kantian (?) morality argument. Just an observation I wanted to make.
Trolley problem: a train is heading down the track and will kill 5 people, is it moral to flip the switch to divert it to a different track so it kills 1 different person instead?
Utilitarians argue that the outcomes matter: 1 death is preferable to 5 deaths, so it would be moral to flip the switch.
Someone else might argue that the act matters more - deliberately targeting and killing an innocent person is wrong, even if you believe the benefits outweigh the harms, so it would be immoral to flip the switch.
So it's basically, do you put more weight on the act, or the outcome?
How is our society built? Western societies have mostly rejected pure utiliarian ethics. Otherwise, it would be moral to execute a healthy person in order to harvest their organs to save 5 people's lives. Yet at the same time many of our policies such as using a progressive tax system to redistribute wealth is utilitarian in nature, so it would seem that we have settled on a mixture.
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters. A "proportional" response by this logic would be committing those same acts back to the people of Gaza, so in their eyes any response they have made so far is "less than proportional".
Hardline detractors of Israel will say, based on a utilitarian view, the number of dead in Gaza is numerically higher than the number of dead in Israel, so this proves that Israel is morally wrong - the numbers matter. A "proportional" response by this logic would be that Israel is free to pursue a military action to defeat Hamas as long as the total deaths don't exceed the 1,400 they suffered, and since the 8,000 deaths on the Gazan side are higher, Israel's response has been "wildly disproportionate".
I think there is a dynamic in online spaces, when confronted with a hardline view, to then take the opposite hardline view to "counter" it for balance, when in reality most people would agree that their own personal views are more nuanced.
To go back to the "norms / rules" established for these kinds of conflicts - the US provides a much higher volume of arms to Saudi Arabia than Israel - $110 billion during the Obama administation (NPR fact check) and the Saudis have been participating in a much more brutal Iran-Saudi proxy conflict - the civil war in Yemen (Wiki), which has resulted in around 377,00 deaths, 80,000 of them children, many of them dead from US weapons.
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations (I'm picking Statistica but most sources seem to be very similar).
posted by xdvesper at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
ISW update, 11-1.
'Israeli forces arrested Fatah Secretary General in Jenin Ata Abu Ramila in an overnight raid on November'1'
''The Lions’ Den—a West Bank-based Palestinian militia—released a statement on October 31 calling for further anti-Israel militancy in the West Bank.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian met Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Foreign Affairs Minister Hakan Fidan in Ankara on November 1'
'Iranian-backed Iraqi militias are signaling that they may escalate against US forces in Iraq and Syria, as LH similarly messages against Israel.'
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei discussed the Israel-Hamas war with a group of students on November 1, marking the fifth time he has publicly discussed the war since October 7.'
'Jordan recalls ambassador to Israel to protest Gaza ‘catastrophe'
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023
'Israeli forces arrested Fatah Secretary General in Jenin Ata Abu Ramila in an overnight raid on November'1'
''The Lions’ Den—a West Bank-based Palestinian militia—released a statement on October 31 calling for further anti-Israel militancy in the West Bank.'
'Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian met Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Foreign Affairs Minister Hakan Fidan in Ankara on November 1'
'Iranian-backed Iraqi militias are signaling that they may escalate against US forces in Iraq and Syria, as LH similarly messages against Israel.'
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei discussed the Israel-Hamas war with a group of students on November 1, marking the fifth time he has publicly discussed the war since October 7.'
'Jordan recalls ambassador to Israel to protest Gaza ‘catastrophe'
posted by clavdivs at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2023
I think it's super inappropriate to come into a discussion about an unfolding genocide and vaguepost about how the temperature is turned up too high. I genuinely struggled with how to express that in a way that wouldn't start an argument, which was what you said you didn't want, and I'm sorry that it ended up coming off with a snide tone. I've basically said what I wanted to say now and don't really want to talk about it offline.
posted by dusty potato at 7:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 7:21 PM on November 1, 2023 [4 favorites]
Consider what you're rhapsodizing.
I think you are inferring the wrong emotion from my comment. I was merely pointing out a limitation in the comparison I was making to a significant battle in WW2 in terms of differences in weapons, sensor systems and geography.
posted by interogative mood at 7:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think you are inferring the wrong emotion from my comment. I was merely pointing out a limitation in the comparison I was making to a significant battle in WW2 in terms of differences in weapons, sensor systems and geography.
posted by interogative mood at 7:34 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Joe Biden has now said that there should be a humanitarian pause.
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support, but he's finally trying to put some distance between himself and the slaughter.
posted by zymil at 7:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support, but he's finally trying to put some distance between himself and the slaughter.
posted by zymil at 7:36 PM on November 1, 2023 [6 favorites]
trolley problems are stupid and fake.
also deontology and utilitarianism aren’t in play so much as a kind of twisted version of virtue ethics, or so i would argue if i had any stomach for arguing. also there’s another moral framework in play and it’s an immoral moral framework and it’s a version of kissengerian realpolitik that’s metastasized into something even worse, and that’s the framework that all the leaders whose souls have gone a-blackberrying are using.
it’s kinda fucked up because these are very much not the terms i’m giving to thinking in and also kant was a nasty piece of work sometimes but i think maybe kantian deontology might be the least bad option available here, that or trying to find a way to a more virtuous virtue ethics.
also though and importantly i liked loquacious’s comment a great deal and would gladly go to the mat for it if going to the mat for it is welcomed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
also deontology and utilitarianism aren’t in play so much as a kind of twisted version of virtue ethics, or so i would argue if i had any stomach for arguing. also there’s another moral framework in play and it’s an immoral moral framework and it’s a version of kissengerian realpolitik that’s metastasized into something even worse, and that’s the framework that all the leaders whose souls have gone a-blackberrying are using.
it’s kinda fucked up because these are very much not the terms i’m giving to thinking in and also kant was a nasty piece of work sometimes but i think maybe kantian deontology might be the least bad option available here, that or trying to find a way to a more virtuous virtue ethics.
also though and importantly i liked loquacious’s comment a great deal and would gladly go to the mat for it if going to the mat for it is welcomed.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
Please don't go to the mat. There's no need to wrestle anything into submission.
Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone as a lurker who's following all this closely.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
Thanks to everyone contributing to this thread. I'm sure I'm not alone as a lurker who's following all this closely.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:11 PM on November 1, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't know if it's driven by some polling numbers that we haven't seen yet or the erosion of European support
I think its more concrete than that; the IDF just basically today cut off Gaza City from the rest of the strip with ground forces, so a pause now wouldn't be as much to Hamas' benefit in terms of allowing rearming and resupply. Combined with the hostage negotiations possibly moving forward, Biden probably thinks Israel might be more receptive to that advice than before today.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think its more concrete than that; the IDF just basically today cut off Gaza City from the rest of the strip with ground forces, so a pause now wouldn't be as much to Hamas' benefit in terms of allowing rearming and resupply. Combined with the hostage negotiations possibly moving forward, Biden probably thinks Israel might be more receptive to that advice than before today.
posted by Justinian at 8:14 PM on November 1, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hardline supporters of Israel will say that since IDF soldiers haven't gone into Gaza, specifically targeted civilians to massacre, raped women, paraded their naked bodies through the streets of Tel Aviv and had Israelis celebrate and spit on them, this proves to them they will always have the moral high ground - the act and intent matters.
I don't necessarily disagree with the bulk of the comment, but I've been wondering why no-one I've seen has mentioned Sabra and Shatila? I don't think that Hamas necessarily "escalated" this conflict, nor do I think that October 7 is necessarily the worst day for atrocities against civilians we've seen, it's just better documented.
For anyone who isn't aware, Christian militias, with IDF guns and vehicles, went into Palestinian refugee camps - ostensibly to root out terrorists, and killed, tortured and raped for over a day. The IDF had decided to let the militia in rather than enter the camps themselves, and they blocked the exits and lit the camps with flares while they listened to reports of the horrors. As many as 3500 may have died, it's hard to be sure. My understanding is the Israeli government itself found that they had known what was happening in the camps and decided not to interfere.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't necessarily disagree with the bulk of the comment, but I've been wondering why no-one I've seen has mentioned Sabra and Shatila? I don't think that Hamas necessarily "escalated" this conflict, nor do I think that October 7 is necessarily the worst day for atrocities against civilians we've seen, it's just better documented.
For anyone who isn't aware, Christian militias, with IDF guns and vehicles, went into Palestinian refugee camps - ostensibly to root out terrorists, and killed, tortured and raped for over a day. The IDF had decided to let the militia in rather than enter the camps themselves, and they blocked the exits and lit the camps with flares while they listened to reports of the horrors. As many as 3500 may have died, it's hard to be sure. My understanding is the Israeli government itself found that they had known what was happening in the camps and decided not to interfere.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [7 favorites]
Biden is trying to get Americans and most seriously wounded civilians out of Gaza. He is also trying to get at least 100 aid trucks into Gaza per day. Hard to do that with all the war going on. Isn’t it in the film Baron Von Munchausen where the diplomats have worked out specific times the war will be fought. It seems ridiculous in the film, but that happens IRL. As if “No fighting on Tuesday’s that’s when the bin men come”. Ok but then no fighting between 11am-11pm US eastern we purchased NFL Sunday ticket on Dish. ok but no overtime. No we want. to see the whole game. Ok you can have single overtime but we want 2 hours on Wednesday and Saturdays to do the shopping. Deal, deal. The rest of the time war.
posted by interogative mood at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 8:23 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Joe Biden has now said that there should be a humanitarian pause.
At least in how the NYTimes is initially reporting it, it was Biden's impromptu response to a heckler/protester at an event. My guess is it will become official US policy, but it seems preliminary still.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
At least in how the NYTimes is initially reporting it, it was Biden's impromptu response to a heckler/protester at an event. My guess is it will become official US policy, but it seems preliminary still.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:26 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
I got to know Alon Burstein's YT channel where he's doing daily updates, and it's been concise and clarifying. I got to know him via this webinar 2 weeks ago. I'll just quote the video information for his credentials:
Alon Burstein is a visiting assistant professor and Israel Institute Fellow in the Department of Political Science at the University of California, Irvine. His research focuses on social mobilization and collective action in the Israel-Palestine region, as well as on violent collective action around the world
Sharing because the q&a section had relevant points for this thread on Hamas support from Palestinians (around min 42).
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Alon Burstein is a visiting assistant professor and Israel Institute Fellow in the Department of Political Science at the University of California, Irvine. His research focuses on social mobilization and collective action in the Israel-Palestine region, as well as on violent collective action around the world
Sharing because the q&a section had relevant points for this thread on Hamas support from Palestinians (around min 42).
posted by cendawanita at 8:35 PM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
For anybody feeling helpless, please consider donating to the Occupied Palestinian Territory Humanitarian Fund, money marked for UN agencies and NGOs. You might reasonably think that money is not a bottleneck here given the surge in humanitarian aid and the lack of access into Gaza, so what do they even need the money for anyway? Two factors at play here:
1. Only about 37% of the estimated funding required from the Flash Appeal has been met. A lot of the money goes into operations/logistics, and lots of food/supplies end up being wasted because they need to be kept ready and fresh to get sent in at a moment's notice. Breakdown of where the money goes.
2. Lots of development aid for Gaza/Palestine has been frozen by donor states since the October 7 Hamas attack, even as humanitarian aid has stayed the same or increased in some cases. I haven't crunched the numbers, but my impression is that we don't exactly have a windfall of aid money.
As mentioned above, some foreign nationals (e.g., international teams swapping out from Doctors Without Borders) were able to leave Gaza through some mutual non-opposition between Egypt, Hamas and Israel. I love Doctors Without Borders and donate to them regularly, but their presence in Gaza, like other international NGOs, is pretty limited compared to UNRWA, WFP, etc. due to issues of access.
On a personal note, I was corresponding with a UNRWA colleague in Gaza today and felt so bad for taking up some of her time that she could've spent doing something else. Everything about this feels so awful, and I have to resist the urge all the time to argue with strangers on the internet. Taking action has been the only thing keeping me out of despair. I liked the discourse upthread about how public perception seems to be shifting, and I found that interview with Rashid Kalidi to be particularly inspiring. Conflicts in Vietnam, Algeria, South Africa, etc. ended in part due to public pressure from the home countries of colonial powers. The things we do and say here really do matter, even if it doesn't seem like it.
1. Only about 37% of the estimated funding required from the Flash Appeal has been met. A lot of the money goes into operations/logistics, and lots of food/supplies end up being wasted because they need to be kept ready and fresh to get sent in at a moment's notice. Breakdown of where the money goes.
2. Lots of development aid for Gaza/Palestine has been frozen by donor states since the October 7 Hamas attack, even as humanitarian aid has stayed the same or increased in some cases. I haven't crunched the numbers, but my impression is that we don't exactly have a windfall of aid money.
As mentioned above, some foreign nationals (e.g., international teams swapping out from Doctors Without Borders) were able to leave Gaza through some mutual non-opposition between Egypt, Hamas and Israel. I love Doctors Without Borders and donate to them regularly, but their presence in Gaza, like other international NGOs, is pretty limited compared to UNRWA, WFP, etc. due to issues of access.
On a personal note, I was corresponding with a UNRWA colleague in Gaza today and felt so bad for taking up some of her time that she could've spent doing something else. Everything about this feels so awful, and I have to resist the urge all the time to argue with strangers on the internet. Taking action has been the only thing keeping me out of despair. I liked the discourse upthread about how public perception seems to be shifting, and I found that interview with Rashid Kalidi to be particularly inspiring. Conflicts in Vietnam, Algeria, South Africa, etc. ended in part due to public pressure from the home countries of colonial powers. The things we do and say here really do matter, even if it doesn't seem like it.
If you believe this theoretical construct — the colony and the metropole — then what activists do here in the metropole counts. You have to win people over. You can’t just show that you are the most pure or the most revolutionary or can say the most extreme things and demonstrate your revolutionary credentials. You have to be doing something toward a clear political end.posted by bongerino at 10:15 PM on November 1, 2023 [14 favorites]
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations
I don't think that's correct. According to the first chart in this article from U.S. News, Israel received between $3.1 billion and $3.7 billion in U.S. aid *every year* between 2013 and 2022. That's combined military and economic assistance, but according to this page, "Since 2000, over 86% of annual American aid to Israel has funded military efforts." It links this February 2022 Congressional Research Service report (pdf), which states, "Almost all current U.S. aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance."
Using those sources, somewhere around $30-35 billion is more accurate for the last 10 years than your $7 billion. I'm not sure of the specific relevance of the larger point you were trying to make (it's late), but I'm fairly sure your numbers are off. (The Statistica link you cited is behind a paywall for me atm.)
posted by mediareport at 10:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't think that's correct. According to the first chart in this article from U.S. News, Israel received between $3.1 billion and $3.7 billion in U.S. aid *every year* between 2013 and 2022. That's combined military and economic assistance, but according to this page, "Since 2000, over 86% of annual American aid to Israel has funded military efforts." It links this February 2022 Congressional Research Service report (pdf), which states, "Almost all current U.S. aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance."
Using those sources, somewhere around $30-35 billion is more accurate for the last 10 years than your $7 billion. I'm not sure of the specific relevance of the larger point you were trying to make (it's late), but I'm fairly sure your numbers are off. (The Statistica link you cited is behind a paywall for me atm.)
posted by mediareport at 10:30 PM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thank you bongerino.
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
In contrast, the US has provided just $7 billion in arms to Israel in the last decade, according to various citations
This refers to direct imports from the USA of munitions, fighter planes, etc. and doesn't account for the billions in funding for weapons and systems developed and built in Israel or bought from elsewhere than the USA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This refers to direct imports from the USA of munitions, fighter planes, etc. and doesn't account for the billions in funding for weapons and systems developed and built in Israel or bought from elsewhere than the USA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:21 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yesterday (my time; 1 Nov), the Palestine Festival of Literature in New York City organized a public panel (But We Must Speak: On Palestine and the Mandates of Conscience), which had Prof. Rashid Khalidi in conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates, moderated by Michelle Alexander. I followed along because someone shared something Coates said, and he was responding to the question of Black American solidarity. He had earlier opened with talking about his visit to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, which really informed his entire presentation imo. Anyway:
I think it's really important to acknowledge something and that is that I know I'm a relative latecomer to this, it's not something that I had a real knowledge of. I had an intuition for it, I had an awareness of the tradition but it really was not until when I went there when I had a tactile feeling for it. One of the things I will probably be making amends for – until they day they put me in the ground if I'm honest – is in one of my most celebrated works of journalism, when I had to demonstrate tangibly how a reparations program could be done I look to Israel. I think about that, and one of my golden rules about writing is that you only write after you've reported, you only write after—and I wrote without going. While there is a long tradition of solidarity, for me personally, there is a thing of making amends. And it is terribly, ferociously important to me.
And in his closing remarks, talking about MLK Jr’s ethos of non-violence, and how he never really got what it means until his visit to Israel and the occupied territories: King would talk about the corrupting influence of violence, what it did to the soul, and I have to say, and this is really really important, as much as I saw my world through the eyes of the Palestinians, I saw what I can only describe as an alternative history through the eyes of Israeli Jews. I understood how pain, oppression, genocide, how you can take the wrong lesson from it. And how you can take the lesson that the real problem is that I did not have power, that I did not have the guns. Like, it was sad.
This was interesting and I'm apparently not the first to notice, it's not like Western establishment didn't try the same approach in resolving the 'issue' of free black people, something that was brought up in response to his book in fact. Anyway, the whole video isn't just on the panel, if you can spare some time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:20 AM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
I think it's really important to acknowledge something and that is that I know I'm a relative latecomer to this, it's not something that I had a real knowledge of. I had an intuition for it, I had an awareness of the tradition but it really was not until when I went there when I had a tactile feeling for it. One of the things I will probably be making amends for – until they day they put me in the ground if I'm honest – is in one of my most celebrated works of journalism, when I had to demonstrate tangibly how a reparations program could be done I look to Israel. I think about that, and one of my golden rules about writing is that you only write after you've reported, you only write after—and I wrote without going. While there is a long tradition of solidarity, for me personally, there is a thing of making amends. And it is terribly, ferociously important to me.
And in his closing remarks, talking about MLK Jr’s ethos of non-violence, and how he never really got what it means until his visit to Israel and the occupied territories: King would talk about the corrupting influence of violence, what it did to the soul, and I have to say, and this is really really important, as much as I saw my world through the eyes of the Palestinians, I saw what I can only describe as an alternative history through the eyes of Israeli Jews. I understood how pain, oppression, genocide, how you can take the wrong lesson from it. And how you can take the lesson that the real problem is that I did not have power, that I did not have the guns. Like, it was sad.
This was interesting and I'm apparently not the first to notice, it's not like Western establishment didn't try the same approach in resolving the 'issue' of free black people, something that was brought up in response to his book in fact. Anyway, the whole video isn't just on the panel, if you can spare some time.
posted by cendawanita at 2:20 AM on November 2, 2023 [15 favorites]
Thank you, cendawanita.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I cannot get this to link properly. From US Senator Bernie Sanders in The Guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
“An immediate humanitarian response is vitally important, but it is equally important for Israel to have a political strategy. It cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution. Such a strategy must include, as minimum first steps: a clear promise that Palestinians displaced in the fighting will have the absolute right to safely return to their homes; a commitment to broader peace talks to advance a two-state solution in the wake of this war; an abandonment of Israeli efforts to carve up and annex the West Bank; and a commitment to work with the international community to build genuine Palestinian governing capacity.
“The United States, which provides $3.8bn a year in military aid to Israel, should make it clear that these are the conditions of our solidarity. Just as we want Israel to be a vibrant democracy, safe from terrorist attacks, we also want justice and dignity for the Palestinian people. That’s not going to happen with Hamas running the Gaza Strip. It is also not going to happen with continued Israeli domination of Palestinian life.”
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/01/gaza-humanitarian-pause-bernie-sanders
“An immediate humanitarian response is vitally important, but it is equally important for Israel to have a political strategy. It cannot bomb its way to a long-term solution. Such a strategy must include, as minimum first steps: a clear promise that Palestinians displaced in the fighting will have the absolute right to safely return to their homes; a commitment to broader peace talks to advance a two-state solution in the wake of this war; an abandonment of Israeli efforts to carve up and annex the West Bank; and a commitment to work with the international community to build genuine Palestinian governing capacity.
“The United States, which provides $3.8bn a year in military aid to Israel, should make it clear that these are the conditions of our solidarity. Just as we want Israel to be a vibrant democracy, safe from terrorist attacks, we also want justice and dignity for the Palestinian people. That’s not going to happen with Hamas running the Gaza Strip. It is also not going to happen with continued Israeli domination of Palestinian life.”
posted by Bella Donna at 3:36 AM on November 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
Audreynachrome - yes, Israel's actions in Lebanon is a whole other thread in itself. The Sabra and Shatila massacre (Wiki) was just a small part of the larger Lebanese Civil War (Wiki). It's going to be a mass of alphabet soup but the context and parallels it provides is helpful, I think.
On one side of the civil war was the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Lebanese National Movement (LNM) - primarily advancing the Arab and Palestinian cause - recently growing in strength by recruiting from the influx of 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.
On the other side was the Lebanese Forces (LF) - the Christian government, formerly in a majority position but presently a minority with the influx of Palestinian Muslims and other demographic shifts.
Israel had intervened in the war in response to attacks from the PLO, with the blessing and assistance of the Multinational Force in Lebanon (MNF) - a peacekeeping force on the ground consisting of US, UK, French and Italian soldiers.
At this point in the war Israel and LF had almost achieved their main objective. A ceasefire had been signed, which allowed the safe passage of surrendering PLO fighters out of Lebanon under the supervision of the MNF.
However, at the last moment - their plans hit a snag. PLO fighters in West Beirut had not exited yet and were believed to be still hiding among the refugee camps there. As the bulk of the PLO fighters had left, the MNF left the country. Bachir Gemayel, president of Lebanon, reevaluated his position, and rejected signing a peace treaty with Israel and also did not order his troops to clear out the PLO from West Beirut.
This left the IDF in a difficult position as they were not allowed to clear the PLO out themselves, and besides, they did not want to unnecessarily suffer the inevitable casualties while doing so.
Days later on 14 Sep, Gemayel was assassinated in a massive explosion which also killed 26 politicians in his headquarters. The assassination was carried out by the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP) - an ally of the LNM.
In the chaos that ensued, it is alleged that the IDF took full advantage of the LF's desire for revenge and blood against the Palestinians for the assassination of their President and virtual decapitation of their government. The IDF moved into position around West Beirut and allowed the LF to enter the refugee camps and conduct their massacre. Between 460-3,500 Palestinians were estimated to be killed.
The United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Ariel Sharon was forced to resign as Defense Minister as it was deemed his responsibility and thus his failure to prevent those atrocities. It did not prove an impediment to him being elected Prime Minister nearly 20 years later.
---
In the case of Jordan and Lebanon, Israel was able to work together with them to expel the militant PLO and remove the threat. The PLO were consigned to a backwater (Tunisia) and were falling into irrelevance and then later signed the Oslo Accords. I think there is hope that they might do the same with Hamas by working with third party.
I brought up the Briggs Plan (self post) before in a different context, but since some have rhetorically asked for a solution, I might as well throw it out there. And when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail (having multiple generations of family live through this and some semblance of a civil society emerge at the end of it)... so fine, this is probably a shit idea, illegal, unethical, unlikely to work, but like everyone else, I honestly don't see what would work.
posted by xdvesper at 4:02 AM on November 2, 2023
On one side of the civil war was the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) and Lebanese National Movement (LNM) - primarily advancing the Arab and Palestinian cause - recently growing in strength by recruiting from the influx of 400,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.
On the other side was the Lebanese Forces (LF) - the Christian government, formerly in a majority position but presently a minority with the influx of Palestinian Muslims and other demographic shifts.
Israel had intervened in the war in response to attacks from the PLO, with the blessing and assistance of the Multinational Force in Lebanon (MNF) - a peacekeeping force on the ground consisting of US, UK, French and Italian soldiers.
At this point in the war Israel and LF had almost achieved their main objective. A ceasefire had been signed, which allowed the safe passage of surrendering PLO fighters out of Lebanon under the supervision of the MNF.
However, at the last moment - their plans hit a snag. PLO fighters in West Beirut had not exited yet and were believed to be still hiding among the refugee camps there. As the bulk of the PLO fighters had left, the MNF left the country. Bachir Gemayel, president of Lebanon, reevaluated his position, and rejected signing a peace treaty with Israel and also did not order his troops to clear out the PLO from West Beirut.
This left the IDF in a difficult position as they were not allowed to clear the PLO out themselves, and besides, they did not want to unnecessarily suffer the inevitable casualties while doing so.
Days later on 14 Sep, Gemayel was assassinated in a massive explosion which also killed 26 politicians in his headquarters. The assassination was carried out by the Syrian Social Nationalist Party (SSNP) - an ally of the LNM.
In the chaos that ensued, it is alleged that the IDF took full advantage of the LF's desire for revenge and blood against the Palestinians for the assassination of their President and virtual decapitation of their government. The IDF moved into position around West Beirut and allowed the LF to enter the refugee camps and conduct their massacre. Between 460-3,500 Palestinians were estimated to be killed.
The United Nations General Assembly condemned the massacre and declared it to be an act of genocide. Ariel Sharon was forced to resign as Defense Minister as it was deemed his responsibility and thus his failure to prevent those atrocities. It did not prove an impediment to him being elected Prime Minister nearly 20 years later.
---
In the case of Jordan and Lebanon, Israel was able to work together with them to expel the militant PLO and remove the threat. The PLO were consigned to a backwater (Tunisia) and were falling into irrelevance and then later signed the Oslo Accords. I think there is hope that they might do the same with Hamas by working with third party.
I brought up the Briggs Plan (self post) before in a different context, but since some have rhetorically asked for a solution, I might as well throw it out there. And when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail (having multiple generations of family live through this and some semblance of a civil society emerge at the end of it)... so fine, this is probably a shit idea, illegal, unethical, unlikely to work, but like everyone else, I honestly don't see what would work.
posted by xdvesper at 4:02 AM on November 2, 2023
Well, hopefully we all have it safely established now that the IDF is not beyond condoning and allowing acts of genocide, and that mass brutalisation of civilians, hundreds if not thousands in a day, up close and personal, is not new to this conflict.
The discussions around whether missile assassination is more or less spiritually harmful seem a distraction, if an interesting one, both sides have seen mass killings at the end of a gun, women hurt and children stuck by bayonet.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:18 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
The discussions around whether missile assassination is more or less spiritually harmful seem a distraction, if an interesting one, both sides have seen mass killings at the end of a gun, women hurt and children stuck by bayonet.
posted by Audreynachrome at 4:18 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
A bunch of Latin American governments have responded strongly to the invasion:
South American countries recall ambassadors and cut ties with Israel over war with Hamas
Bolivia has completely cut ties, Columbia and Chile have withdrawn ambassadors, and the leaders of Brazil and Argentina have been very critical. Lula in Brazil and Petro in Columbia have both used the word "genocide".
Am I correct to guess that these are all from left-wing political parties that were on the receiving end of American violence via the School of the Americas and similar anti-communist dirty war programs back in the day?
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
South American countries recall ambassadors and cut ties with Israel over war with Hamas
Bolivia has completely cut ties, Columbia and Chile have withdrawn ambassadors, and the leaders of Brazil and Argentina have been very critical. Lula in Brazil and Petro in Columbia have both used the word "genocide".
Am I correct to guess that these are all from left-wing political parties that were on the receiving end of American violence via the School of the Americas and similar anti-communist dirty war programs back in the day?
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
Bernie Sanders in The Guardian
Unfortunately, Bernie still refuses to call for a ceasefire. Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently -- which unfortunately implies there is going to be a (humanitarian?) resumption of hostilities at some point. This op-ed is basically a call for regime change in Gaza, little different from the policy that the US and Israel are actually pursing. Bernie's strength was never foreign policy, but he has really lost whatever moral leadership of the US progressive milieu that he once possessed. It's really a shame to see that he can't take a stronger position on the current conflict. A call for a ceasefire really has to be the sine qua non of any sensible stance.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Unfortunately, Bernie still refuses to call for a ceasefire. Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently -- which unfortunately implies there is going to be a (humanitarian?) resumption of hostilities at some point. This op-ed is basically a call for regime change in Gaza, little different from the policy that the US and Israel are actually pursing. Bernie's strength was never foreign policy, but he has really lost whatever moral leadership of the US progressive milieu that he once possessed. It's really a shame to see that he can't take a stronger position on the current conflict. A call for a ceasefire really has to be the sine qua non of any sensible stance.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If you need a ~1 hour summary of the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict up to the current crisis, there is an interview with Norman Finkelstein (conducted by Mikhaila Peterson, of all people) posted on YouTube a couple weeks ago that is really excellent.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
1) on communication:
Israel's social media guide for the war on #Gaza -- original page here: ISRAEL UNDER FIRE:
3) on drones
video: The hospital are out of room so children are being treated on the floor
posted by kmt at 6:12 AM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israel's social media guide for the war on #Gaza -- original page here: ISRAEL UNDER FIRE:
DO NOT explain Israel’s policy2) on genocidal intent:
The issue here is not the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a whole. It is very difficult for us to win there. October 7 is about war crimes committed by Hamas, an organization that people abroad for some reason do not perceive as terrorists, no matter how much we try to say that they are. Now there is proof. It’s our 9/11, and that’s a relatable analogy for most Westerners.
DO NOT respond to anti-Israelis
who seek to draw the discourse into a discussion about the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a whole Instead, focus on the hostages, the elderly and children, the pain and suffering endured here.
Israel's Public Diplomacy Minister:-- the original tweet was since removed, but screenshots can be found + here's a writeup: Israeli MP Says It Clearly for World to Hear: 'Erase All of Gaza From the Face of the Earth'
"Erase all of Gaza from the face of the earth. That the Gazan monsters will fly to the southern fence & try to enter Egyptian territory or they will die & their death will be evil.
Gaza should be erased!"
3) on drones
Hamas started publishing videos of successfully targeting Israeli troops with munitions dropped from drones. Israeli soldiers were all bunched together in the open, no anti-drone netting or other protection — Ukrainian and Russian troops have learned the hard way not to do this.4) children
video: The hospital are out of room so children are being treated on the floor
posted by kmt at 6:12 AM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Neo-Nazis and the Far-Right Are Trying to Hijack Pro-Palestine Protests
Neo-Nazis are showing up at protests in an attempt to push anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and tropes into the mainstream.
In Germany
Back in July the Neo-Nazi Party Professed Solidarity With the Palestinian Cause Amid 75th Anniversary Of The 'Nakba'
posted by adamvasco at 6:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Neo-Nazis are showing up at protests in an attempt to push anti-Jewish conspiracy theories and tropes into the mainstream.
In Germany
Back in July the Neo-Nazi Party Professed Solidarity With the Palestinian Cause Amid 75th Anniversary Of The 'Nakba'
posted by adamvasco at 6:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Further to adamvasco's link: Paris subway passengers chant 'f*** the Jews, we are Nazis'
This doesn't feel so much like people going mask off as people deciding to feed their masks into a shredder because they don't think they need them any more. Pretty disturbing.
posted by fight or flight at 6:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
This doesn't feel so much like people going mask off as people deciding to feed their masks into a shredder because they don't think they need them any more. Pretty disturbing.
posted by fight or flight at 6:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Jewish-space-laser-Nazi-lady's attempt to silence Palestinian-American fails in Congress
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
(Just to put the neo-Nazi stuff into greater context: There are a number of extremist right-wing neo-Nazis in the US government with whom the extremist right-wing Israeli government is friendly with.)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 AM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
It seems that there are two separate conversations going on that are mostly going past one another.
Some people want to discuss the question of whether or not Israel's actions follow the laws of war (for whatever value of "laws of war" that person has in mind), whether or not the actions Israel is taking are in general accordance with the actions the Allies took in Dresden or Tokyo, and issues of ratios of civilians killed vs military objectives achieved or sought.
The other group seems to be more interested in the question of whether or not what Israel is doing is MORAL and is largely disinterested in the minutae of various treaties and historic events.
I'd note that as a general rule most people would agree that the US and other Allied powers during WWII had a number of laws that today are considered immoral. The US, among other things, had formal segregation, virtually no rights for women at all, and a draconian set of anti-LGBT laws in the 1940's. The argument that the various laws and agreements regarding war that the US operated under during that time should be used as the standard for behavior in war today is, therefore, not very pursuasive to me and I suspect not pursuasive to a great many other people.
posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Some people want to discuss the question of whether or not Israel's actions follow the laws of war (for whatever value of "laws of war" that person has in mind), whether or not the actions Israel is taking are in general accordance with the actions the Allies took in Dresden or Tokyo, and issues of ratios of civilians killed vs military objectives achieved or sought.
The other group seems to be more interested in the question of whether or not what Israel is doing is MORAL and is largely disinterested in the minutae of various treaties and historic events.
I'd note that as a general rule most people would agree that the US and other Allied powers during WWII had a number of laws that today are considered immoral. The US, among other things, had formal segregation, virtually no rights for women at all, and a draconian set of anti-LGBT laws in the 1940's. The argument that the various laws and agreements regarding war that the US operated under during that time should be used as the standard for behavior in war today is, therefore, not very pursuasive to me and I suspect not pursuasive to a great many other people.
posted by sotonohito at 6:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Instead, he opts for a "humanitarian pause" -- something no one had heard of until recently
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Also some have suggested it was just Biden speaking off the cuff, but actually the US proposed a resolution at the UN to call for a humanitarian pause last week.
posted by interogative mood at 7:16 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Also some have suggested it was just Biden speaking off the cuff, but actually the US proposed a resolution at the UN to call for a humanitarian pause last week.
posted by interogative mood at 7:16 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Humanitarian pause isn’t some new thing. The UN has a page explaining the concept.
Well it is unfamiliar and/or incomprehensible enough to Gaza expert Sara Roy who in her open letter to President Biden says:
Well it is unfamiliar and/or incomprehensible enough to Gaza expert Sara Roy who in her open letter to President Biden says:
I don’t know if my friends and their families are among those murdered or injured by Israel. But I do know that this is not the first atrocity and it won’t be the last if the barbarity continues to be justified by you and others with the power to stop it. You call for a ‘humanitarian pause’, which I do not understand. What does a pause mean in the middle of such carnage? Does it mean feeding people so they can survive to be killed the next day? How is that humanitarian? How is that humane?posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 7:45 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Just to put the neo-Nazi stuff into greater context: There are a number of extremist right-wing neo-Nazis in the US government with whom the extremist right-wing Israeli government is friendly with.)
Neo-Nazi in this context is not a word meaning anyone with bad politics. Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with? How does that put people chanting "f*** the Jews" into context?
posted by cosmic owl at 7:47 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Neo-Nazi in this context is not a word meaning anyone with bad politics. Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with? How does that put people chanting "f*** the Jews" into context?
posted by cosmic owl at 7:47 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
Who are the neo-Nazis in the US government that Israel is friendly with?
No longer in the US government, but ex-Trump aide Sebastian Gorka, for one. (And Israel, especially under Netanyahu, is a far-right ethnonationalist state; finding political allies abroad who are also far-right ethnonationalists is not surprising?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
No longer in the US government, but ex-Trump aide Sebastian Gorka, for one. (And Israel, especially under Netanyahu, is a far-right ethnonationalist state; finding political allies abroad who are also far-right ethnonationalists is not surprising?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:13 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have assumed Bernie is using the language of "humanitarian pause" because he is trying to set up a concept in public which he can advocate for behind the scenes. I doubt he has a ton of influence on the Biden administration but that doesn't mean he's not trying? I have no evidence for this, I'll admit, but the peculiarity of the language and the fact that he's not just repeating an existing left slogan ("ceasefire!!") make it look like strategy more than lack of clarity or courage.
posted by kensington314 at 8:16 AM on November 2, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 8:16 AM on November 2, 2023
It's been known for some time that Saudi Arabia wants a U.S. Security Pact to protect them from Iran, and the U.S. was already sending envoys to negotiate with Saudi Arabia before Hamas attacked. The U.S. aims to leverage their protection to negotiate with the Saudis for peace with Israel and with Israel for the groundwork for a two-state solution with the Palestinians. The purpose of Hamas’s attack was to disrupt that process: This is Iran targeting Israel through terrorism, yes — and, again, the Palestinians are collateral damage. But Iran is also targeting the U.S., because of longstanding tension between the two countries, augmented by U.S. sanctions and a recent game of footsie Iran has been playing with Russia. Mostly, however, Shia Iran's interference is aimed at preventing Sunni Saudi, the Arab world's largest and richest Sunni nation, from having undue influence in a peaceful pan-Arab neighborhood. For Iran, both the Israelis and the Palestinians were getting in the way.
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
The point is both Israel and the Palestinians suffer from corrupt and abusive leadership. Both have extremist factions within their populations and both share the same rough neighborhood. It's possible that with U.S. help and post-Russian invasion global unity and interest in peace, Israel's response will be fruitfully shifted, but Israel does not have the advantages of size or local allies in the way many of its critics do, which is why Israel's response isn't just an existential issue for the Palestinians, it's also an existential issue for the Israelis.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:23 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
The last major Iran-backed conflict was in 2006 after a Hezbollah cross-border raid led to a handful of IDF deaths and kidnappings. Israel responded by attacking Hezbollah military targets, Lebanese civilian infrastructure, and launching a ground invasion of Southern Lebanon. They also imposed an air and naval blockade, and engaged in guerilla warfare. The conflict is believed to have killed between 1,191 and 1,300 Lebanese people, and 165 Israelis. It severely damaged Lebanese civil infrastructure, and displaced approximately one million Lebanese and 300,000–500,000 Israelis. It ended when the UN Security Council passed a resolution, approved by both the Lebanese and Israeli governments, calling for "disarmament of Hezbollah, for withdrawal of the IDF from Lebanon, and for the deployment of the Lebanese Armed Forces and an enlarged United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (UNIFIL) in the south."Iranian officials later said they never would have attacked had they known that Israel would go nuts. That was the point then — and it's the point now: It led to 20 years of peace. That's what survival looks like for a tiny country that has been repeatedly attacked by neighboring countries and terrorist organizations. Israel’s brutal approach is informed not just by a past punctuated by a history of expulsions, pograms and attempted extermination, but also by a present, in which anti-semitism has erupted in North and South America, Europe and is even reportedly rampant on Chinese social media in response to the war. This is despite the fact that Israel is the only Western-style democracy (albeit, like the U.S. teetering) in a region where medieval displays of power are commonplace. (See Arab Spring; see Jamal Khashoggi's beheading; see draconian women’s and gay rights.) And still people would question Israel’s desire to remain a majority Jewish state, much as most countries in the world are also identified by a majority religion.
The point is both Israel and the Palestinians suffer from corrupt and abusive leadership. Both have extremist factions within their populations and both share the same rough neighborhood. It's possible that with U.S. help and post-Russian invasion global unity and interest in peace, Israel's response will be fruitfully shifted, but Israel does not have the advantages of size or local allies in the way many of its critics do, which is why Israel's response isn't just an existential issue for the Palestinians, it's also an existential issue for the Israelis.
posted by Violet Blue at 8:23 AM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
> Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts,
If these are the norms, the norms are heinous. As far as the rules go, there's a bunch of them established by the UN, and I promise you that bombing the shit out of a city and killing thousands, mostly women and children, are not in line with the rules.
posted by dis_integration at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If these are the norms, the norms are heinous. As far as the rules go, there's a bunch of them established by the UN, and I promise you that bombing the shit out of a city and killing thousands, mostly women and children, are not in line with the rules.
posted by dis_integration at 8:30 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Yikes. This is why we keep circling back to the same thing - there will always be people who justify crimes against humanity in the name of protecting "western" states, or because "they only respect what they fear" or some other phrase that shows just how little regard they have for the actual lives of Palestinians (and Muslims in general).
posted by sagc at 8:31 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:31 AM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Describing Israel, a country that openly practices apartheid, as "only Western-style democracy in a region where medieval displays of power are commonplace" is either very funny or very sad, I'm not sure which.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:51 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:51 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
Gideon Levy, Haaretz: These Are the Children Extracted After the Bombardment of Gaza's Jabalya Refugee Camp (ungated)
Another terrorist was extracted from the wreckage. This time she’s clearly alive, her fair, curly hair is white with dust; she’s five or six, being carried by her father. She looks right and left, as though asking where help will come from.
A man in a tattered vest scribbles here and there, a white sheet folded like a shroud in his hands, covering an infant’s body, and he’s waving it in despair. It’s the body of his son, a newborn baby. This infant hadn’t yet had a chance to join Hamas’ military headquarters in the Jabalya refugee camp. He had only lived a few days – a butterfly’s eternity – and was killed.
Dozens of youngsters continued digging in the rubble with their bare hands in a desperate effort to extract still-living people or the bodies of neighbors, raising destroyed walls from the hand of a child sticking out of the ruins. Perhaps this child was a terrorist in Hamas' Nukhba force.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
[using the spoiler tag because he opens with graphic descriptions of dead children, described as terrorists, following the government]
A Hamas terrorist was taken out of the debris, carried in his father’s arms. His face is covered with dust, his body jerking like a sack, his stare blank. It’s not clear if he’s alive or dead. He is a toddler of three or four, and his desperate father rushed him to the Gaza Strip's Indonesian Hospital, which was already bursting with wounded and dead people.Another terrorist was extracted from the wreckage. This time she’s clearly alive, her fair, curly hair is white with dust; she’s five or six, being carried by her father. She looks right and left, as though asking where help will come from.
A man in a tattered vest scribbles here and there, a white sheet folded like a shroud in his hands, covering an infant’s body, and he’s waving it in despair. It’s the body of his son, a newborn baby. This infant hadn’t yet had a chance to join Hamas’ military headquarters in the Jabalya refugee camp. He had only lived a few days – a butterfly’s eternity – and was killed.
Dozens of youngsters continued digging in the rubble with their bare hands in a desperate effort to extract still-living people or the bodies of neighbors, raising destroyed walls from the hand of a child sticking out of the ruins. Perhaps this child was a terrorist in Hamas' Nukhba force.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear
This is nothing short of a defense of ethnic cleansing and mass murder. A blatant lie that I think the speaker doesn't believe.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is nothing short of a defense of ethnic cleansing and mass murder. A blatant lie that I think the speaker doesn't believe.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Relevant reporting about Hamas' October 7th attack. Hamas of course planned and strategized and trained, but the scale of the attack was also the result of what looks like a massive security failure:
"Now two sources tell Middle East Eye that Hamas didn’t plan to take no more than 20-30 hostages, and it didn’t expect that Israel’s Gaza division would collapse.
They argue that Hamas didn’t plan for this:
• The original attack plan, according to several sources, was to strike military targets and then make a quick withdrawal.
• Hamas wanted to inflict maximum embarrassment on Netanyahu and get something to bargain with for a mass prisoner release.
• While Hamas was ready for the war, it did not expect the attack to provoke anything more than limited retaliatory strikes on Gaza. “The strike was supposed to be tactical, not strategic,” one source said.
• Hamas sent in 1,500 fighters, expecting that most would be killed.
“Somewhere around 1,400 fighters came back,” said one source.
• The source said that Hamas force unexpectedly kept on advancing, attacking locations that were not on an original list of targets, and they ended up with a far larger number of hostages than they had planned for
• Hamas knew the addresses of senior IDF commanders. It knew the layout of military bases and the location of checkpoints.
• Furthermore, it knew the time of the shift change at the Gaza Division’s barracks at the end of the Yom Kippur holiday. It launched the attack one hour after the shift change. Many of the troops were caught in their beds.
• “The plan was to assault the Gaza Division and not the kibbutz, because the Qassam intention was to capture soldiers and officers to finish the file of prisoners,” said one source familiar with the planning of the operation.
“The number of civilian hostages was as a result of the sequence of battle when a lot of people crossed the border.”
• Hamas and affiliated fighters were free to cross between designated targets and for a couple of hours nobody was in control.
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Now two sources tell Middle East Eye that Hamas didn’t plan to take no more than 20-30 hostages, and it didn’t expect that Israel’s Gaza division would collapse.
They argue that Hamas didn’t plan for this:
• The original attack plan, according to several sources, was to strike military targets and then make a quick withdrawal.
• Hamas wanted to inflict maximum embarrassment on Netanyahu and get something to bargain with for a mass prisoner release.
• While Hamas was ready for the war, it did not expect the attack to provoke anything more than limited retaliatory strikes on Gaza. “The strike was supposed to be tactical, not strategic,” one source said.
• Hamas sent in 1,500 fighters, expecting that most would be killed.
“Somewhere around 1,400 fighters came back,” said one source.
• The source said that Hamas force unexpectedly kept on advancing, attacking locations that were not on an original list of targets, and they ended up with a far larger number of hostages than they had planned for
• Hamas knew the addresses of senior IDF commanders. It knew the layout of military bases and the location of checkpoints.
• Furthermore, it knew the time of the shift change at the Gaza Division’s barracks at the end of the Yom Kippur holiday. It launched the attack one hour after the shift change. Many of the troops were caught in their beds.
• “The plan was to assault the Gaza Division and not the kibbutz, because the Qassam intention was to capture soldiers and officers to finish the file of prisoners,” said one source familiar with the planning of the operation.
“The number of civilian hostages was as a result of the sequence of battle when a lot of people crossed the border.”
• Hamas and affiliated fighters were free to cross between designated targets and for a couple of hours nobody was in control.
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:25 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Gaza authorities say 15 killed in Israeli strike on Bureij refugee camp (Al-Jazeera) Commentary:
Al-Bureij Camp is located south of the so-called evacuation line. There is no safe place in Gaza. Israeli claims that crossing south of the evacuation line will keep civilians safer are a blatant lie, and those who believe and spread these lies are complicit in genocide. Period.posted by kmt at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023
Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights in law as blacks in the US do unlike blacks under Apartheid. 21% of the Israeli population is Arab. The major difference between Apartheid and what exists in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is that Apartheid South Africa was not the occupation of a neighboring country. Apartheid had as its end a single country with equal rights for all. The end of this is going to be the two state solution. People there seem to want time apart to govern themselves.
There are some lessons from the ending of apartheid that could be useful. The first is that you need leaders on both sides who are genuinely committed to reaching the end goal — in South Africa the goal was a single country with equal rights, in this instance a two state solution. The second is a real commitment to nonviolent approaches to working towards the political goals — a key moment was getting the ANC to move away from terrorism and embrace a political dialogue and for the Apartheid government to realize that would not be able to use violence to impose their will forever. The third is something akin to the truth and reconciliation process to put the system that has sustained this conflict on trial; not necessarily the people.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a Mandela and a de Clerk available to get the deal done. Maybe Bargouti who’s been in Israeli prison for a long time could be the Mandela. Netanyahu seems more like the PW Botha.
Hamas won’t renounce violence.
posted by interogative mood at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
There are some lessons from the ending of apartheid that could be useful. The first is that you need leaders on both sides who are genuinely committed to reaching the end goal — in South Africa the goal was a single country with equal rights, in this instance a two state solution. The second is a real commitment to nonviolent approaches to working towards the political goals — a key moment was getting the ANC to move away from terrorism and embrace a political dialogue and for the Apartheid government to realize that would not be able to use violence to impose their will forever. The third is something akin to the truth and reconciliation process to put the system that has sustained this conflict on trial; not necessarily the people.
Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be a Mandela and a de Clerk available to get the deal done. Maybe Bargouti who’s been in Israeli prison for a long time could be the Mandela. Netanyahu seems more like the PW Botha.
Hamas won’t renounce violence.
posted by interogative mood at 9:38 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
> The major difference between Apartheid and what exists in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is that Apartheid South Africa was not the occupation of a neighboring country. Apartheid had as its end a single country with equal rights for all. The end of this is going to be the two state solution.
The far-right in power in Israel right now is pretty clear on the record that they are against a two-state solution and will do anything to stop it. Maybe a new government, free of the extreme right, would take that option seriously, but it will never be possible if the assault on Gaza continues. I'm not interested in debating the question of whether Israeli arabs in fact have equal rights within Israel, but Gaza and the West Bank are clearly analogous to the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa.
posted by dis_integration at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The far-right in power in Israel right now is pretty clear on the record that they are against a two-state solution and will do anything to stop it. Maybe a new government, free of the extreme right, would take that option seriously, but it will never be possible if the assault on Gaza continues. I'm not interested in debating the question of whether Israeli arabs in fact have equal rights within Israel, but Gaza and the West Bank are clearly analogous to the Bantustans of apartheid South Africa.
posted by dis_integration at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Arab citizens of Israel have equal rights in law as blacks in the US do unlike blacks under Apartheid
If you are at all familiar with the discussion of apartheid in the Israeli context, you'd know that "apartheid" doesn't refer to Arab citizens of Israel but to the five million Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation and control and have done since 1967, and who remain subject to things like being forcibly evicted in favour of settlers, etc. Talking about Israeli Arab citizens looks quite a lot like either a deliberate deflection or utterly missing the point.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
If you are at all familiar with the discussion of apartheid in the Israeli context, you'd know that "apartheid" doesn't refer to Arab citizens of Israel but to the five million Palestinians who live under Israeli occupation and control and have done since 1967, and who remain subject to things like being forcibly evicted in favour of settlers, etc. Talking about Israeli Arab citizens looks quite a lot like either a deliberate deflection or utterly missing the point.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:48 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
MisantropicPainforest, do you have a link for that reporting?
posted by kensington314 at 9:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 9:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
> In response, Israel has been acting under the norms / rules established for these kinds of conflicts, but in a neighborhood of authoritarian leaders that respect what they fear — and that qualification really matters here.
so returning to an earlier frame, where i proposed that there are two parallel arguments:
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
so returning to an earlier frame, where i proposed that there are two parallel arguments:
- over whether isreal is doing that
- over whether it's sadly necessary that israel do that
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 10:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah, MisantropicPainforest, the framing of the Oct. 7 attack as 'Sorry guys, we got a little carried away." is disgusting. "We had to rape women and kill old people and children because the Israelis just made it too easy!" What the actual fuck.
posted by gwint at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by gwint at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Now two sources tell Middle East Eye
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources. They also reported that US Delta Force was going to flood the Hamas tunnels with nerve agent to "paralyze" everyone inside "for a period of time between six and 12 hours". That's not how nerve agents work. They're clearly willing to listen and repeat stuff from sources who are either lying or themselves misinformed.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources. They also reported that US Delta Force was going to flood the Hamas tunnels with nerve agent to "paralyze" everyone inside "for a period of time between six and 12 hours". That's not how nerve agents work. They're clearly willing to listen and repeat stuff from sources who are either lying or themselves misinformed.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:07 AM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think the idea that Hamas didn't anticipate their success is plausible, but the amount of slaughter, especially at the music festival, suggests to me that systematic slaughter was at the very least in some of the participants' minds ahead of time. You don't accidentally kill several hundred at an outdoor music festival.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:14 AM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:14 AM on November 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Ha'aretz: As Their Anger Grows, Families of Gaza Hostages Vow Not to Give Israeli Gov't 'Endless Credit' (archive)
“The families are troubled by the fact that they have no feeling that serious negotiations are taking place regarding the release of the hostages..."
“The families want the [military campaign's] goal to be the return of the hostages and not the elimination of Hamas, and that the promises we were given wouldn't turn out to be empty,” said Nir Shai, father of Amit, a 16-year-old, abducted from his home in Kibbutz Be’eri. "If that's the army's goal and that's what force is being used to achieve, fine. But not for restoring the army's lost honor of October 7, not for toppling Gaza and not for taking revenge. These are worthy goals, but there'll be time to achieve them after the hostages are released."
[...] "Bringing back the hostages is the binding contract between the state and its citizens and the criteria for our national resilience as a society. Therefore, right now, bringing back the hostages is top priority, above any other mission."
posted by mediareport at 10:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
“The families are troubled by the fact that they have no feeling that serious negotiations are taking place regarding the release of the hostages..."
“The families want the [military campaign's] goal to be the return of the hostages and not the elimination of Hamas, and that the promises we were given wouldn't turn out to be empty,” said Nir Shai, father of Amit, a 16-year-old, abducted from his home in Kibbutz Be’eri. "If that's the army's goal and that's what force is being used to achieve, fine. But not for restoring the army's lost honor of October 7, not for toppling Gaza and not for taking revenge. These are worthy goals, but there'll be time to achieve them after the hostages are released."
[...] "Bringing back the hostages is the binding contract between the state and its citizens and the criteria for our national resilience as a society. Therefore, right now, bringing back the hostages is top priority, above any other mission."
posted by mediareport at 10:22 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
• “Once that happened, other forces, smugglers with weapons, lay people, criminals all flooded through the fence and we had a massacre. That was why 15 Thai workers were kidnapped. It became complete chaos,” the source continued."
This is a weird one. At least 30 Thai workers were killed. They were abducted from fields at gunpoint. There are reportedly more than 50 taken hostage, not 15. I don't see how you kidnap 50 agricultural workers "by accident." Apparently these workers didn't have access to the sort of shelters and safe rooms that others did, so maybe that explains why so many were kidnapped.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a weird one. At least 30 Thai workers were killed. They were abducted from fields at gunpoint. There are reportedly more than 50 taken hostage, not 15. I don't see how you kidnap 50 agricultural workers "by accident." Apparently these workers didn't have access to the sort of shelters and safe rooms that others did, so maybe that explains why so many were kidnapped.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Haaretz: Israel's Army Plans to Recruit Settlers With No IDF Experience to Defend Ultra-orthodox West Bank Settlements. "The recruits are expected to undergo accelerated basic training for three weeks, after which they will be armed and stationed in the settlements. The program is open to civilians between the ages of 27 to 50, who have not served in the Israeli army"
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:56 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m very familiar with the use of apartheid as an analogy for the conflict. this is why I pointed out the limitations of that particular analogy and how is differs in both how apartheid was ended and how apartheid was practiced.
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries. Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders. There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
posted by interogative mood at 10:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries. Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders. There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
posted by interogative mood at 10:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think debates over whether the word apartheid is applicable are a distraction from the actual pain and suffering happening right now. But the reason people will argue to death over the word is that contained in it is the difference between a one-state or two-state solution. Apartheid implies a second-class citizenship status. Supporters of Israel will react strongly to that, because they reject any framework that grants Israeli citizenship to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. It's semantics, but it's a very loaded semantics, because underneath it are very different and significant conceptions over whether Palestinians should have some version of citizenship in what is currently Israel. Underneath that is the question of whether there should be an Israel at all. When people argue about whether the situation of Palestinians is or is not apartheid, there's very little empirical disagreement about the facts; it's entirely a normative disagreement about what the citizenship status of everyone in Israel/Palestine should be in what state or states each interlocutor thinks should exist there.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 10:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
The idea that this is primarily a struggle between two countries, and not particularly about civil rights, has to do an amazing amount of work to ignore how much Israel, as a state, controls the living conditions, travel, healthcare, job opportunities, educational opportunities, ability to own property, and many other things, both now and in the past. I'd say it's pretty much a facile understanding, and might go some way to explaining why your (interogative mood's) comments are getting so much pushback here - the idea that these are two polities, completely separate, and with equal standing regarding the other is simply not supported by reality.
posted by sagc at 11:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
posted by sagc at 11:06 AM on November 2, 2023 [26 favorites]
If you're looking at a map of Israeli settlement of the West Bank over the last few decades and seeing communities "locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders", I just don't know what to say to that. We don't live in the same reality.
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by ssg at 11:19 AM on November 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I don't particularly trust Middle East Eye's reporting on anything with confidential sources.
I hadn't realized MEE was the same outlet that reported the nerve agent bunk. Yeah you are right they aren't particularly credible.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on November 2, 2023
I hadn't realized MEE was the same outlet that reported the nerve agent bunk. Yeah you are right they aren't particularly credible.
posted by Justinian at 11:45 AM on November 2, 2023
over whether isreal is doing that
over whether it's sadly necessary that israel do that
i'm counting your comment as a staunch "yes" for both questions. please correct me if i'm wrong about your take. and like by saying this i'm not saying that your take is automatically wrong!"Doing that" is too coded for me to automatically agree because I don't understand what it is encompassing.
Israel's Treatment of the Palestinians
I think Netanyahu is a dangerous leader, and probably a fool on top of it. It’s crossed my mind, and I’m sure many other people’s, that a long war would serve his selfish interests.
He's been charged with multiple counts of corruption, and also spent six months staving off unbelievably persistent pro-democratic protests against judicial shenanigans that risk breaking Israeli democracy in two.
Netanyahu is in bed with the ultranationalist far right. The far right settler crowd — which I've read in the past is mostly American! — has NO right to "settle" in the West Bank, and their removal is absolutely the very first step in a two-state solution. Their presence is an international embarrassment, and I've read that the military was busy with settler issues, which is why when there was a crisis in southern Israel, no help came.
Netanyahu and some of his officials have used deplorable language to describe the Palestinians after the Hamas attack. Conditions in Gaza and the Palestinian Territory are also absolutely shocking. It should be sanitary, peaceful with decent or at least basic education and work opportunities — the beginnings of a country already. That they do not have these things may be partially an Israeli problem, but I've been told by Arab Americans that the diaspora gives millions to the Palestinians every year, and all or most of it goes to Hamas or the Palestinian Authority, not to the people for whom it is intended. Similarly, the EU is currently one of the Palestinians' most generous supporters, but that money's mostly not getting to the people who need it, either; if it were, they would have clean water.
- Do I think some form of Apartheid is going on? Yes.
- Do I think Israel should become a bicultural state? Absolutely not.
- Do I think Israel wants to eradicate the Palestinians? Some of the ultranationalists most certainly do. But as we know in the U.S., and as is evident in many other countries, many governments are nonrepresentative of the majority. (See Israeli protests above.)
- Do I think genocide is going on? No.
- Do I think Israel is a “colonial” state? I think this is dangerous language. I would simply say, I believe far-right settlers have illegally settled in the West Bank. The U.N. Security Council should impose strict sanctions against Netanyahu’s government to get them out.
Military Response
- Do I think Israel’s harsh military response is necessary? Yes, or some version of it, unfortunately, for reasons already stated.
U.S. Rhetoric
Over 50 percent of the entire Israeli Jewish population is of at least partial Sephardi/Mizrahi descent. So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture. The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
posted by Violet Blue at 11:50 AM on November 2, 2023
Just representing the global south side of things on the whole colonialism can't be done by people of the same region and similar native claims, when I say: lol.
posted by cendawanita at 11:55 AM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:55 AM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
I think the idea that Hamas didn't anticipate their success is plausible, but the amount of slaughter, especially at the music festival, suggests to me that systematic slaughter was at the very least in some of the participants' minds ahead of time
I have to assume that part of strategy of Hamas in regards to the Oct 7 massacres was to provoke Israel into such a vicious retaliation against Palestine that it unites the region against them and costs them international support.
Unfortunately for everyone, that strategy seems to be working.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have to assume that part of strategy of Hamas in regards to the Oct 7 massacres was to provoke Israel into such a vicious retaliation against Palestine that it unites the region against them and costs them international support.
Unfortunately for everyone, that strategy seems to be working.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Americans bombed Japan twice in WW2 and felt so sorry about it, the rest of the world has to forget about the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere or something.
posted by cendawanita at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 11:57 AM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
South Africa was a civil rights struggle. Palestine and Israel is a struggle between countries.
This is not a struggle between two countries. The Palestinians are an occupied, stateless people. This is why we talk about a "two-state solution"--because there is an unrecognized goal for a Palestinian state which has been affirmed over and over again by the UN as discussed throughout this thread. From the link:
Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders.
I'm not exactly sure entirely what this means, because of course much of the conflict is about various parties struggling to NOT recognize one another. For example the Israeli PM has stated explicitly that he does not want a Palestinian state and has supported Hamas to forestall the possibility of one, and on the other side of the coin there's no shortage of exegesis about various iterations of the Hamas charter and the question of recognizing Israel.
But, of course Israel was recognized by the UN in 1949 and is very much a country with autonomous borders. In addition, it occupies the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It has self-determined to kill many thousands of women and children who did not take part in the October 7 massacre, though we could argue how autonomously they are doing so, given the provenance of their weapons (my government, among others).
Okay, let's see, what more?
There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
Ah, yes! I don't know your situation, but I am guessing they are secondary in your view because you have not been killed or forcibly displaced from your home in the West Bank, or you are not a Palestinian journalist in the West Bank, or or or or
(But genuinely, I do mean that, I don't know your situation and so if you like, live in the West Bank and have a nuanced view of why there's not a primary civil rights concern there, I'm open to hearing about that!)
posted by kensington314 at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is not a struggle between two countries. The Palestinians are an occupied, stateless people. This is why we talk about a "two-state solution"--because there is an unrecognized goal for a Palestinian state which has been affirmed over and over again by the UN as discussed throughout this thread. From the link:
Nearly one-third of the registered Palestine refugees, more than 1.5 million individuals, live in 58 recognized Palestine refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, the Syrian Arab Republic, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. (emphasis mine)Let's see, what else?
Both communities are locked in a struggle for mutual recognition, self determination/autonomy and borders.
I'm not exactly sure entirely what this means, because of course much of the conflict is about various parties struggling to NOT recognize one another. For example the Israeli PM has stated explicitly that he does not want a Palestinian state and has supported Hamas to forestall the possibility of one, and on the other side of the coin there's no shortage of exegesis about various iterations of the Hamas charter and the question of recognizing Israel.
But, of course Israel was recognized by the UN in 1949 and is very much a country with autonomous borders. In addition, it occupies the West Bank and the Golan Heights. It has self-determined to kill many thousands of women and children who did not take part in the October 7 massacre, though we could argue how autonomously they are doing so, given the provenance of their weapons (my government, among others).
Okay, let's see, what more?
There are civil rights dimensions to this conflict; but those are secondary in my view.
Ah, yes! I don't know your situation, but I am guessing they are secondary in your view because you have not been killed or forcibly displaced from your home in the West Bank, or you are not a Palestinian journalist in the West Bank, or or or or
(But genuinely, I do mean that, I don't know your situation and so if you like, live in the West Bank and have a nuanced view of why there's not a primary civil rights concern there, I'm open to hearing about that!)
posted by kensington314 at 11:58 AM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
I suspect that most of the use of Apartheid to describe Israel comes from the fact that despite whatever legal fictions exist, Israel is clearly the polity exercising power in all the supposedly Palestinian territory so it is reasonable for most people to think of the Palestinian people as under de facto Israeli rule.
Most people are aware that Gaza exists in a sort of quantum political state where it is simultaneously independent, part of Israel, under Israeli occupation, and occupied. Most people are also aware that the government of Israel will claim those places and people occupy whichever state it is most advantageous for the government of Israel at that instant, and that the very instant a different position is more advantageous the govenrment of Israel will claim that is and always has been the reality.
We're back, yet again, at the fact that the various govenrments of Israel, not just the current right wing one, has found it convenient to keep all issues regarding Palestinians (other than the minority who have actual Israeli citizenship) and territory in which they live ambiguous.
Which leaves people talking about it in the situation where one party can be absolutely certain that Israel isn't an Apartheid state becuse the Palestinians in question aren't citizens, and another can be certain it is because Israel has ultimate control over the lives of those people. And depending on which lens through which you view Gaza both of those are true.
The govenrment of Israel has created a foggy, vague, ambiguous, mess and it likes things that way.
posted by sotonohito at 12:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Most people are aware that Gaza exists in a sort of quantum political state where it is simultaneously independent, part of Israel, under Israeli occupation, and occupied. Most people are also aware that the government of Israel will claim those places and people occupy whichever state it is most advantageous for the government of Israel at that instant, and that the very instant a different position is more advantageous the govenrment of Israel will claim that is and always has been the reality.
We're back, yet again, at the fact that the various govenrments of Israel, not just the current right wing one, has found it convenient to keep all issues regarding Palestinians (other than the minority who have actual Israeli citizenship) and territory in which they live ambiguous.
Which leaves people talking about it in the situation where one party can be absolutely certain that Israel isn't an Apartheid state becuse the Palestinians in question aren't citizens, and another can be certain it is because Israel has ultimate control over the lives of those people. And depending on which lens through which you view Gaza both of those are true.
The govenrment of Israel has created a foggy, vague, ambiguous, mess and it likes things that way.
posted by sotonohito at 12:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Over 50 percent of the entire Israeli Jewish population is of at least partial Sephardi/Mizrahi descent. So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture. The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
What? I'm honestly trying to understand the argument here.
1) Are you trying to tell us that the Mizrahi - Jews coming to Israel from Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Iran, and other Arab/Muslim countries - are the driving force behind new settlements on Occupied land in the West Bank? That would be an interesting argument; I'd like to see the evidence.
2) Are you also saying that the Sephardim - the proportion of Israeli Jews who are descended from the folks expelled from Spain and Portugal and the resulting diaspora - are to be counted as people of color in discussions of colonialism? Is that labeling important to you here?
3) How does your argument relate to the fundamentalist Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, many of them part of a movement heavily fostered in the U.S., who are among the most vocal and militant supporters of building new colonial settlements on occupied land?
Thanks for clarifying.
posted by mediareport at 12:32 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
What? I'm honestly trying to understand the argument here.
1) Are you trying to tell us that the Mizrahi - Jews coming to Israel from Turkey, Morocco, Algeria, Iraq, Iran, and other Arab/Muslim countries - are the driving force behind new settlements on Occupied land in the West Bank? That would be an interesting argument; I'd like to see the evidence.
2) Are you also saying that the Sephardim - the proportion of Israeli Jews who are descended from the folks expelled from Spain and Portugal and the resulting diaspora - are to be counted as people of color in discussions of colonialism? Is that labeling important to you here?
3) How does your argument relate to the fundamentalist Orthodox Ashkenazi Jews, many of them part of a movement heavily fostered in the U.S., who are among the most vocal and militant supporters of building new colonial settlements on occupied land?
Thanks for clarifying.
posted by mediareport at 12:32 PM on November 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
sotonohito: despite whatever legal fictions exist, Israel is clearly the polity exercising power in all the supposedly Palestinian territory
Example: Israel collects taxes for the West Bank, and they have stopped transferring that money to the Palestinian Authority. This has caused a rift in the Israeli cabinet, since the finance minister says "fuck 'em" and the defense minister says that the PA is important for stability.
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
Example: Israel collects taxes for the West Bank, and they have stopped transferring that money to the Palestinian Authority. This has caused a rift in the Israeli cabinet, since the finance minister says "fuck 'em" and the defense minister says that the PA is important for stability.
posted by clawsoon at 12:36 PM on November 2, 2023 [19 favorites]
So for those folks using a Black/white framework, you're extrapolating from the wrong culture.
Tell that to the Ethiopian Jewish women who were given long-term contraceptive injections without their consent.
many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism
The settlers in the West Bank are largely American (there are over sixty thousand settlers in the West Bank who came to Israel from the USA) and Russian; do you even know what colonialism is, or in what context it's being used to describe what's happening in Israel?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:04 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Tell that to the Ethiopian Jewish women who were given long-term contraceptive injections without their consent.
many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism
The settlers in the West Bank are largely American (there are over sixty thousand settlers in the West Bank who came to Israel from the USA) and Russian; do you even know what colonialism is, or in what context it's being used to describe what's happening in Israel?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:04 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
The majority in Israel is already of color, and many are already from the region or nearby, which also puts the kibosh on colonialism.
I feel like this represents a very misinformed understanding of both what colonialism is and what it means to be "of color."
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
I feel like this represents a very misinformed understanding of both what colonialism is and what it means to be "of color."
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
context (I personally was unaware of) on a less-aligned European perspective: U. Mullally "Ireland’s criticism of Israel has made it an outlier in the EU. What lies behind it?", plus the second half of this recent Blindboy episode (from 31:35), on the Balfour, Herzog and Black&Tans shared history between Ireland and Palestine.
posted by progosk at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by progosk at 1:31 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Here is my read of history and why I see this as conflict between countries with legitimacy and self determination at its core.
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Shebba Farms, the West Bank and Gaza began in 1967. Shebba Farm is still claimed by Lebanon and Syria, the Golan Heights by Syria alone. The Golan, Shebba Farms, and East Jerusalem were annexed in 1967 and the people were granted Israeli citizenship. The remainder of the West Bank and Gaza were not annexed into Israel, although I think Israel has now expanded their territorial claims based on illegal settlement of those areas. These regions have always been seen as a temporary occupation by the UN, USA and pretty much every country and a large portion of the Israeli public.
In the aftermath of the Israeli victory the Israelis wanted Arab states to negotiate for the return of "their" land. The Israeli's didn't really think of Palestinians as a distinct identity -- although many Palestinians did. Israel assumed that Egypt or Jordan would want it back. There were some tentative negations between Israel and Jordan but after the Palestinian revolution in Jordan known as Black September in 1970 that came to an end. King Hussein didn't want more Palestinians (even if Jordan would officially claim all of Israel on its maps as part of Transjordan until the 1990s).
The Israelis spent a large part of the 1970 and 1980s rejecting the idea that Palestinians existed. They kept thinking Arab states would take these people and make a border eventually with whatever Israel didn't take. This was a catastrophically bad idea and a mistake. Meanwhile the PLO moved from Jordan to Lebanon and Lebanon fell into a civil war. The rise of Palestinian journals and promotion of the notion of a Palestinian identity was something the Palestinians worked hard one during this period.
During the Lebanese civil war Arafat and other Palestinian groups harbored ambitions of building an army in Lebanon to liberate Palestine. This lead to attacks and Israel thought they could intervene in the civil war, put the Christians in charge of Lebanon and kick out the Palestinians. They succeeded in getting the PLO exiled to Tunisia but failed terribly in every other way.
The departure of the PLO to Tunis left them increasingly isolated from the local Palestinian communities. Palestinian movements to assert their identity separate from just being Arabs became stronger. Literature around the experience of the Nabka and life under Israeli occupation grew popular among both the Palestinian diaspora and in the occupied territories. By 1987 this would develop into a full blown locally driven revolution outside the control of the PLO in the Occupied Territories -- the Intifada. This saw the emergence of groups like Hamas -- some of which were actually helped along by Israel as a counter to the PLO.
In 1991 we had the Gulf War and collapse of the Soviet Union. This caused the PLO leadership in Tunis to feel like they were slipping into irrelevancy. Worse they had backed Saddam Hussein which isolated them politically. A local peace process was started with Palestinian leaders not officially affiliated with people like the PLO. This was lead by people like Hanan Ashwari These talks stalled but opened the door for secret talks between the PLO and Israel leading to the Oslo Accords.
The 1993 Oslo Accords established a framework for peace between the PLO and Israel based on negotiations towards a two state solution. Israel's preconditions to negotiating with PLO (the recognized political authority by the Palestinians) was the acceptance of the right of Israel's to exist and the renunciation of terrorism. The process established the idea that a Palestinian Government would take control over Gaza and the West Bank, establish the institutions of government and move towards full independence a series of interim agreements based on specific milestones. The process broke down as it approached the final status negotiations. These were to resolve the final borders, status of Jerusalem, and the return / compensation for refugees. The parties got extremely close to an agreement in 1999 under Bill Clinton at Camp David.
The process broke down post 9/11 with the Bush administration and Netanyahu. There were attempts made but once Arafat died there was no Palestinian leader who could really pull people together and make a deal. Under Ariel Sharon an attempt by the center right was made to establish peace by simply declaring a border, pulling out of Gaza with the idea that the Palestinians would eventually have to accept the border and make a final peace deal in exchange for recognition. Sharon might have been able to pull it off but then he had a catastrophic stroke and was brain dead. Shortly thereafter Hamas came to power in Gaza and as it doesn't not accept the Oslo Accords and Netanyahu doesn't want to actually see a two state solution; despite being forced to publicly agree to it a few times -- the process is dead.
So today we have a kind of minimalist Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza with separate governments; but no path to final status negations (where Oslo stopped).
Netanyahu doesn't acknowledge the legitimate rights to Palestinian self determination over the whole of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem -- let's call this Maximum Palestine. Nor does he accept their right to full self determination in some smaller area of the West Bank and Gaza -- let's call this Minimum Palestine. He wants no Palestine. When pushed he will accept minimum Palestine, but he does so with a wink and a nod. Hamas has done a simliar wink and nod idea with their statement of acknowledging that the pre-1967 borders "form the the basis of national consensus" -- a sort of nod to a Maximum Palestine.
The settlers are part of the problem. Every US government up until Trump had kept the embassy in Tel Aviv, refused to acknowledge the annexation of East Jerusalem -- including maintaining a separate consulate in East Jerusalem. Every US government up to Trump had refused to accept any settlements in the West Bank or Gaza as legitimate. During the Bush Sr administration in the early 1990s the US had even withheld aid in an attempt to push then PM Shamir into stopping settlements expansion. This at a time when lots of Jewish refugees were coming into Israel from the collapsing Soviet Union. It became a significant US domestic political issue and probably contributed to Bush Sr. defeat. The control Israel has over the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, natural resources and the continued encroachment of settlers and the conflicts they create. Are a significant barrier to the peace process.
Hamas is another part of the problem because it will not accept the basic terms of negotiation and embraces terrorism and violence as a legitimate means of resistance. This serves to justify Netanyahu's position. There is a broad consensus among Israelis that renouncing terrorism and acknowledging the right of Israel to exist are a precondition for negotiations with Palestinian leaders. This has essentially resulted in both sides being able to reject the legitimacy of the other and thus thwart the final attainment of their ambitions for self determination and countries.
Another aspect of the legitimacy problem its that within each community there are extremists who reject the legitimacy of any leader of their community who does not subscribe to an absolutist position. That is absolute Palestine = 100% of the land is under Palestine with few Jews vs. absolute Israel = 100% under Israel with few Arabs. These groups have often thwarted and sabotaged efforts to reach a final resolution of this conflict. For example hard right groups assassinated Rabin. Hamas has fired rockets and sent in suicide bombers to derail talks.
So when I talk about this as a conflict of legitimacy, self determination between countries rather than the civil rights struggle under apartheid it is based on this understanding of the history.
posted by interogative mood at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel's occupation of East Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Shebba Farms, the West Bank and Gaza began in 1967. Shebba Farm is still claimed by Lebanon and Syria, the Golan Heights by Syria alone. The Golan, Shebba Farms, and East Jerusalem were annexed in 1967 and the people were granted Israeli citizenship. The remainder of the West Bank and Gaza were not annexed into Israel, although I think Israel has now expanded their territorial claims based on illegal settlement of those areas. These regions have always been seen as a temporary occupation by the UN, USA and pretty much every country and a large portion of the Israeli public.
In the aftermath of the Israeli victory the Israelis wanted Arab states to negotiate for the return of "their" land. The Israeli's didn't really think of Palestinians as a distinct identity -- although many Palestinians did. Israel assumed that Egypt or Jordan would want it back. There were some tentative negations between Israel and Jordan but after the Palestinian revolution in Jordan known as Black September in 1970 that came to an end. King Hussein didn't want more Palestinians (even if Jordan would officially claim all of Israel on its maps as part of Transjordan until the 1990s).
The Israelis spent a large part of the 1970 and 1980s rejecting the idea that Palestinians existed. They kept thinking Arab states would take these people and make a border eventually with whatever Israel didn't take. This was a catastrophically bad idea and a mistake. Meanwhile the PLO moved from Jordan to Lebanon and Lebanon fell into a civil war. The rise of Palestinian journals and promotion of the notion of a Palestinian identity was something the Palestinians worked hard one during this period.
During the Lebanese civil war Arafat and other Palestinian groups harbored ambitions of building an army in Lebanon to liberate Palestine. This lead to attacks and Israel thought they could intervene in the civil war, put the Christians in charge of Lebanon and kick out the Palestinians. They succeeded in getting the PLO exiled to Tunisia but failed terribly in every other way.
The departure of the PLO to Tunis left them increasingly isolated from the local Palestinian communities. Palestinian movements to assert their identity separate from just being Arabs became stronger. Literature around the experience of the Nabka and life under Israeli occupation grew popular among both the Palestinian diaspora and in the occupied territories. By 1987 this would develop into a full blown locally driven revolution outside the control of the PLO in the Occupied Territories -- the Intifada. This saw the emergence of groups like Hamas -- some of which were actually helped along by Israel as a counter to the PLO.
In 1991 we had the Gulf War and collapse of the Soviet Union. This caused the PLO leadership in Tunis to feel like they were slipping into irrelevancy. Worse they had backed Saddam Hussein which isolated them politically. A local peace process was started with Palestinian leaders not officially affiliated with people like the PLO. This was lead by people like Hanan Ashwari These talks stalled but opened the door for secret talks between the PLO and Israel leading to the Oslo Accords.
The 1993 Oslo Accords established a framework for peace between the PLO and Israel based on negotiations towards a two state solution. Israel's preconditions to negotiating with PLO (the recognized political authority by the Palestinians) was the acceptance of the right of Israel's to exist and the renunciation of terrorism. The process established the idea that a Palestinian Government would take control over Gaza and the West Bank, establish the institutions of government and move towards full independence a series of interim agreements based on specific milestones. The process broke down as it approached the final status negotiations. These were to resolve the final borders, status of Jerusalem, and the return / compensation for refugees. The parties got extremely close to an agreement in 1999 under Bill Clinton at Camp David.
The process broke down post 9/11 with the Bush administration and Netanyahu. There were attempts made but once Arafat died there was no Palestinian leader who could really pull people together and make a deal. Under Ariel Sharon an attempt by the center right was made to establish peace by simply declaring a border, pulling out of Gaza with the idea that the Palestinians would eventually have to accept the border and make a final peace deal in exchange for recognition. Sharon might have been able to pull it off but then he had a catastrophic stroke and was brain dead. Shortly thereafter Hamas came to power in Gaza and as it doesn't not accept the Oslo Accords and Netanyahu doesn't want to actually see a two state solution; despite being forced to publicly agree to it a few times -- the process is dead.
So today we have a kind of minimalist Palestine in the West Bank and Gaza with separate governments; but no path to final status negations (where Oslo stopped).
Netanyahu doesn't acknowledge the legitimate rights to Palestinian self determination over the whole of the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem -- let's call this Maximum Palestine. Nor does he accept their right to full self determination in some smaller area of the West Bank and Gaza -- let's call this Minimum Palestine. He wants no Palestine. When pushed he will accept minimum Palestine, but he does so with a wink and a nod. Hamas has done a simliar wink and nod idea with their statement of acknowledging that the pre-1967 borders "form the the basis of national consensus" -- a sort of nod to a Maximum Palestine.
The settlers are part of the problem. Every US government up until Trump had kept the embassy in Tel Aviv, refused to acknowledge the annexation of East Jerusalem -- including maintaining a separate consulate in East Jerusalem. Every US government up to Trump had refused to accept any settlements in the West Bank or Gaza as legitimate. During the Bush Sr administration in the early 1990s the US had even withheld aid in an attempt to push then PM Shamir into stopping settlements expansion. This at a time when lots of Jewish refugees were coming into Israel from the collapsing Soviet Union. It became a significant US domestic political issue and probably contributed to Bush Sr. defeat. The control Israel has over the movement of Palestinians in the West Bank, natural resources and the continued encroachment of settlers and the conflicts they create. Are a significant barrier to the peace process.
Hamas is another part of the problem because it will not accept the basic terms of negotiation and embraces terrorism and violence as a legitimate means of resistance. This serves to justify Netanyahu's position. There is a broad consensus among Israelis that renouncing terrorism and acknowledging the right of Israel to exist are a precondition for negotiations with Palestinian leaders. This has essentially resulted in both sides being able to reject the legitimacy of the other and thus thwart the final attainment of their ambitions for self determination and countries.
Another aspect of the legitimacy problem its that within each community there are extremists who reject the legitimacy of any leader of their community who does not subscribe to an absolutist position. That is absolute Palestine = 100% of the land is under Palestine with few Jews vs. absolute Israel = 100% under Israel with few Arabs. These groups have often thwarted and sabotaged efforts to reach a final resolution of this conflict. For example hard right groups assassinated Rabin. Hamas has fired rockets and sent in suicide bombers to derail talks.
So when I talk about this as a conflict of legitimacy, self determination between countries rather than the civil rights struggle under apartheid it is based on this understanding of the history.
posted by interogative mood at 1:47 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I doubt he has a ton of influence on the Biden administration but that doesn't mean he's not trying?
(Minor aside: Bernie and Biden reportedly get along famously well, and Bernie has been able to bend Biden's ear on economic issues at the very least.)
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Minor aside: Bernie and Biden reportedly get along famously well, and Bernie has been able to bend Biden's ear on economic issues at the very least.)
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:56 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here is my read of history...
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
posted by ssg at 2:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
posted by ssg at 2:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [8 favorites]
This history did not start in 1967. If you want to have a real discussion about this topic, you absolutely cannot pretend this started in 1967. What happened in 1948?
I don’t know if leading questions is the best way forward to a real discussion either. Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to?
posted by gomi at 2:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I don’t know if leading questions is the best way forward to a real discussion either. Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to?
posted by gomi at 2:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
Could you share what you believe happened in 1948 that discredits, undercuts or expands upon the content in the post you’re replying to
The mass dispossesion of Palestinians by armed gangs of Jewish terrorists, along with the slaughter of entire villages? This is pretty basic stuff as far as the history of the region goes.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
The mass dispossesion of Palestinians by armed gangs of Jewish terrorists, along with the slaughter of entire villages? This is pretty basic stuff as far as the history of the region goes.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
The level of vitriol that is dumped by a couple of posters here at anyone who doesn’t share a very narrow view of this conflict continues to be ridiculous.
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes. You probably should go back to at least the 1870s and provide us with a breakdown of the different ottoman administrative districts that eventually became British Palestine and the demographics of each and the population flows and land policies. Then you get to WW1 all the changes that occurred with Sikes-Picot, Lawrence of Arabia’s deals with the Hashemites, and the start of the British Mandate. Be sure to discus the multiple British government approaches to “the Jewish question”. Then the end of the mandate, the UN partition plan, its failure and the lead up to the 1948 war with all its various war crimes. Then the post war period and treatment of refugees and governance of Jordan and Egypt and how their different approaches affected the Palestinian disaspora and the events leading up to the 6 day war of 1967. Be sure to address the impact of the Nassers Pan Arabism and the collapse of United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria.
Please explain how any of that makes the model of apartheid South Africa such a useful point comparison and possible source of solutions for the current Israeli occupation.
posted by interogative mood at 3:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes. You probably should go back to at least the 1870s and provide us with a breakdown of the different ottoman administrative districts that eventually became British Palestine and the demographics of each and the population flows and land policies. Then you get to WW1 all the changes that occurred with Sikes-Picot, Lawrence of Arabia’s deals with the Hashemites, and the start of the British Mandate. Be sure to discus the multiple British government approaches to “the Jewish question”. Then the end of the mandate, the UN partition plan, its failure and the lead up to the 1948 war with all its various war crimes. Then the post war period and treatment of refugees and governance of Jordan and Egypt and how their different approaches affected the Palestinian disaspora and the events leading up to the 6 day war of 1967. Be sure to address the impact of the Nassers Pan Arabism and the collapse of United Arab Republic of Egypt and Syria.
Please explain how any of that makes the model of apartheid South Africa such a useful point comparison and possible source of solutions for the current Israeli occupation.
posted by interogative mood at 3:11 PM on November 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
The level of vitriol that is dumped by a couple of posters here at anyone who doesn’t share a very narrow view of this conflict continues to be ridiculous
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:19 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Many critics of Israeli policy are not antisemites. Many critics of Israeli policy are antisemites (and a lot of supporters of Israeli policy, particularly in the US, are probably antisemitic fundies as I think PC himself has pointed out). None of this should be that controversial; you have to look beyond "is this person a critic or supporter of Israeli policy" to make any determination.
posted by Justinian at 3:33 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 3:33 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:35 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:35 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Many critics of Israeli policy are not antisemites
Well aware of that, thanks, was pointing out which side the actual vitriol in this discussion has been coming from.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2023
Well aware of that, thanks, was pointing out which side the actual vitriol in this discussion has been coming from.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2023
Yep, I 100% agree that it's ridiculous to compare critics of Israeli policy to tiki torch Nazis, or to accuse them of being antisemites.
I've not accused any one here of being a tiki torch nazi nor have I called anyone here an antisemite. You seem to have confused me with someone else. I've discussed words and provided information about why they are perceived as antisemetic.
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
Well it's a war and there are two sides and both sides have a less than stellar history when it comes to war crimes. This isn't an issue like climate change or childhood vaccination.
posted by interogative mood at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've not accused any one here of being a tiki torch nazi nor have I called anyone here an antisemite. You seem to have confused me with someone else. I've discussed words and provided information about why they are perceived as antisemetic.
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
Well it's a war and there are two sides and both sides have a less than stellar history when it comes to war crimes. This isn't an issue like climate change or childhood vaccination.
posted by interogative mood at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
House approves GOP’s $14.3 billion Israel aid package.
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2023
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2023
You want to talk about 1948 at least put in the effort to provide a complete picture of the situation rather than rattle off a one sided list of war crimes.
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area. I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area. I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 3:58 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Johnson’s decision to isolate the Israel funding — and marry it to IRS cuts — was an olive branch to conservatives wary of deficits and overseas spending, and it united virtually all of his conference. "
how ironic that a right-wing extremist-run israel is bringing the united states to the cusp of its own Fascist Republicanist regime at the hands of a right-wing talk show host
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
how ironic that a right-wing extremist-run israel is bringing the united states to the cusp of its own Fascist Republicanist regime at the hands of a right-wing talk show host
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
It does seem likely that 1948 was a pretty consequential year for the area
"Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization". Irgun's tactics appealed to many Jews who believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism."
not too wild about The Stern Gang trying to make a pact with the Nazis either.
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Albert Einstein, in a letter to The New York Times in 1948, compared Irgun and its successor Herut party to "Nazi and Fascist parties" and described it as a "terrorist, right wing, chauvinist organization". Irgun's tactics appealed to many Jews who believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism."
not too wild about The Stern Gang trying to make a pact with the Nazis either.
posted by clavdivs at 4:15 PM on November 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
how ironic that
Fear of the IRS and Iran is republican dogma. bill allows no money for Ukraine or humanitarian aid to Gaza as if constantly repeating the historical mantra that is still 1928.
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Fear of the IRS and Iran is republican dogma. bill allows no money for Ukraine or humanitarian aid to Gaza as if constantly repeating the historical mantra that is still 1928.
posted by clavdivs at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I hope that anyone that has information they believe has not been adequately considered in the thread about that year adds it to the thread.
I wrote a couple papers on it. They're published and you can find them in your favorite academic journal. Really what everyone should do is read the minority and majority report of the UNSCOP. Many think that any UN action was some cynical ploy of imperial states, but the report has the tone of 'this situation is fucked, we think we have a solution that wouldn't end in mass killings, but that doesn't seem possible to implement, so we'll go with this other one, lets hope it ends well'. its really remarkable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I wrote a couple papers on it. They're published and you can find them in your favorite academic journal. Really what everyone should do is read the minority and majority report of the UNSCOP. Many think that any UN action was some cynical ploy of imperial states, but the report has the tone of 'this situation is fucked, we think we have a solution that wouldn't end in mass killings, but that doesn't seem possible to implement, so we'll go with this other one, lets hope it ends well'. its really remarkable.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ben Gurion and mainstream Israeli leaders were often trying to stop Irgun and opposed their actions. This lead to actual fighting between the IDF and Irgun in June of 1948 in the incident known as Altalena Affair.
As with everything in this conflict there is a ton of context that needs to be considered to really understand events.
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
As with everything in this conflict there is a ton of context that needs to be considered to really understand events.
posted by interogative mood at 4:44 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Comment removed. Folks, this is a long thread with a lot of people having a conversation, don't turn it into a wrestling match between a few folks, don't make it personal, and if you've been heavily commenting lately, maybe open some space up for other people. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:25 PM on November 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
how does one bothsides war crimes metafilter
I really don't know, who does? But using History is not making any argument for either side, I just go by the current chronology, see how it affects the world and around myself. interogative mood'info is more accurate then not but I read something that stands out about, genocide, history and exegecy. the context.
"During the war (WW2), two requests were repeatedly made to the warring parties-by Jewish organizations in London and washington, urging their governments to bomb the death camps in Auschwitz; by the Mufti's office in Berlin, urging the German government to bomb Tel Aviv. neither request was accepted-not because of any ill will on one side or Goodwill on the other, but for the same basic reason-that's such a bombardment would serve no military purpose and make no direct contribution towards winning the war. it did not there for, in purely military terms, justify the risks and costs involved."
-Lewis, The Middle East. pg.351.
posted by clavdivs at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really don't know, who does? But using History is not making any argument for either side, I just go by the current chronology, see how it affects the world and around myself. interogative mood'info is more accurate then not but I read something that stands out about, genocide, history and exegecy. the context.
"During the war (WW2), two requests were repeatedly made to the warring parties-by Jewish organizations in London and washington, urging their governments to bomb the death camps in Auschwitz; by the Mufti's office in Berlin, urging the German government to bomb Tel Aviv. neither request was accepted-not because of any ill will on one side or Goodwill on the other, but for the same basic reason-that's such a bombardment would serve no military purpose and make no direct contribution towards winning the war. it did not there for, in purely military terms, justify the risks and costs involved."
-Lewis, The Middle East. pg.351.
posted by clavdivs at 6:51 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
NYT:
Israel Is Silencing Internal Critics
By Michael Sfard. Mr. Sfard is an Israeli human rights lawyer and the author of “The Wall and the Gate: Israel, Palestine and the Legal Battle for Human Rights.”
posted by lalochezia at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel Is Silencing Internal Critics
By Michael Sfard. Mr. Sfard is an Israeli human rights lawyer and the author of “The Wall and the Gate: Israel, Palestine and the Legal Battle for Human Rights.”
posted by lalochezia at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Kuwaiti Newspaper Al-Jarida reports that the US and Iran are edging closer to war
The US has warned Iran and Hezbollah that if Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declares war or engages in a significant escalation against Israel the US will consider it a declaration of war by Iran on Israel and respond. The message from the US allegedly included some satellite photos of Iranian bases and assets in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Along with photos of specific Iranian military commanders based on those regions and a picture of IRGC Commander Qasem Soleimani — whom the US assassinated under Trump.
Meanwhile Iran and Hezbollah have said that if there is no ceasefire by Friday they will take action against Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 8:29 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
The US has warned Iran and Hezbollah that if Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah declares war or engages in a significant escalation against Israel the US will consider it a declaration of war by Iran on Israel and respond. The message from the US allegedly included some satellite photos of Iranian bases and assets in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Along with photos of specific Iranian military commanders based on those regions and a picture of IRGC Commander Qasem Soleimani — whom the US assassinated under Trump.
Meanwhile Iran and Hezbollah have said that if there is no ceasefire by Friday they will take action against Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 8:29 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
How reliable is Al-Jarida? I don't know that outlet. Are we talking Al-Jazeera or are we talking Middle East Eye?
posted by Justinian at 10:05 PM on November 2, 2023
posted by Justinian at 10:05 PM on November 2, 2023
I wasn't looking but these all seem to come up/shared since I last came online:
N+1: A Dangerous Conflation - An open letter from Jewish writers - editor's note: A group of Jewish writers drafted this letter after seeing an old argument gain new power: the claim that critiquing Israel is antisemitic. Editors at a corporate-owned magazine were prepared to publish the letter, but their lawyers advised against it. The writers share this letter in solidarity with those who continue to speak out in support of Palestinian freedom.
Dave Zirin: For the People in the Back: Anti-Zionism Is Not Anti-Semitism
Joshua P. Hill: No. Jews are not Facing a Second Holocaust - Please stop making these comparisons.
posted by cendawanita at 10:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
N+1: A Dangerous Conflation - An open letter from Jewish writers - editor's note: A group of Jewish writers drafted this letter after seeing an old argument gain new power: the claim that critiquing Israel is antisemitic. Editors at a corporate-owned magazine were prepared to publish the letter, but their lawyers advised against it. The writers share this letter in solidarity with those who continue to speak out in support of Palestinian freedom.
Dave Zirin: For the People in the Back: Anti-Zionism Is Not Anti-Semitism
Joshua P. Hill: No. Jews are not Facing a Second Holocaust - Please stop making these comparisons.
posted by cendawanita at 10:46 PM on November 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If Hamas remains in power, what then? What choice would Israel have but to draconiously sanction and watch over Gaza? What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
posted by xammerboy at 11:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 11:39 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate. Has anyone read a anything that opines on likely outcomes of a political shakeup? I'm not familiar with Israeli parliamentary politics beyond what reading I did around formation of the unity government.
posted by kensington314 at 11:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 11:48 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
If Hamas remains in power, what then? What choice would Israel have but to draconiously sanction and watch over Gaza? What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
Well, "draconian sanctions and watch over Gaza" is no good, but light years better than "let's kill children on an industrial scale."
It seems at least plausible that this would have been totally prevented by a different set of military and intelligence strategies and deployments. So, do those and then start the yearslong work of a political solution.
We're gonna be on the Blue in four years bemoaning how the Gaza assault of 2023 created a currently non-existent and eventually-worse-than-Hamas terror group formed from the ashes of today. Analysts will say they should've gone for something smarter than collective punishment and revenge.
I mean it. We'll be here having that conversation. It's terrible and it wasn't the only option.
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
Well, "draconian sanctions and watch over Gaza" is no good, but light years better than "let's kill children on an industrial scale."
It seems at least plausible that this would have been totally prevented by a different set of military and intelligence strategies and deployments. So, do those and then start the yearslong work of a political solution.
We're gonna be on the Blue in four years bemoaning how the Gaza assault of 2023 created a currently non-existent and eventually-worse-than-Hamas terror group formed from the ashes of today. Analysts will say they should've gone for something smarter than collective punishment and revenge.
I mean it. We'll be here having that conversation. It's terrible and it wasn't the only option.
posted by kensington314 at 11:57 PM on November 2, 2023 [17 favorites]
What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas? //
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate.
This seems like the real (current) obstacle to me, is that on both sides we have radicals who do not actually want peace. Somebody get these guys out of here! There are Palestinians and Israelis who are reasonable and compassionate people, but they are not making the decisions. We do not really need a big rehashing of hisstorical injustices, that is spinning the wheels, we need brave forward thinking towards something new and better.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
I've been reading ongoing speculation about Netanyahu's political fate.
This seems like the real (current) obstacle to me, is that on both sides we have radicals who do not actually want peace. Somebody get these guys out of here! There are Palestinians and Israelis who are reasonable and compassionate people, but they are not making the decisions. We do not really need a big rehashing of hisstorical injustices, that is spinning the wheels, we need brave forward thinking towards something new and better.
posted by Meatbomb at 12:03 AM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
'There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza' (BBC)
“Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza. Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza,” a post from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on X, formerly Twitter, read.
Returning them to the area they are bombing, have themselves declared unsafe for civilians. Nice.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
“Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza. Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza,” a post from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on X, formerly Twitter, read.
Returning them to the area they are bombing, have themselves declared unsafe for civilians. Nice.
posted by Dysk at 12:57 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
context (I personally was unaware of) on a less-aligned European perspective: U. Mullally "Ireland’s criticism of Israel has made it an outlier in the EU. What lies behind it?", plus the second half of this recent Blindboy episode (from 31:35), on the Balfour, Herzog and Black&Tans shared history between Ireland and Palestine.Likely a fair amount of overlap, but the latest episode of The Irish Passport podcast covers similar subject matter.
posted by Strutter Cane - United Planets Stilt Patrol at 2:40 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
White House Requests “Unprecedented” Loophole That Would Obscure Arms Sales to Israel
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Biden officials voice new concerns and warnings over Israel’s war with Hamas
As the humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens and the death toll among Palestinian civilians continues to rise, there is growing concern among top Biden administration officials about how the Israelis are carrying out the war and uncertainty about whether they can be reined in, according to two current and two former senior U.S. officials familiar with the internal discussions.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 6:32 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some administration officials also are worried that the U.S. could become more and more isolated on the world stage over President Joe Biden’s close alignment with Israel — and that he will be blamed for some of the Israeli military’s actions, according to three current and former officials.
Biden and his top aides have in the past week adjusted the administration’s public message to emphasize concern for Palestinian civilians and U.S. efforts to get them humanitarian relief. The shift follows growing criticism at home and abroad of Biden’s decision to swiftly and staunchly back Israel’s military response to Hamas while initially speaking less forcefully about protecting Palestinians; meanwhile, images of civilian casualties in Gaza continue to ricochet around the world.
CNN quoting Secretary Blinken, currently in Israel, after viewing additional footage from the Oct. 7 Hamas attack:
“I saw, for example, a family on a kibbutz, a father (of) two young boys — maybe 10, 11 years old — grabbing them, pulling them out of their living room, going through their very small backyard and into a shelter, followed seconds later by a terrorist who throws a grenade into that small shelter. And then as the father come staggering out, shoots him down. And then the boys come out, and they run into their house, and the camera in the house is filming everything. And they're crying. ‘Where's daddy?’ one says. The other says, ‘They killed daddy. Where's my mommy?’ And then the terrorists comes in, and casually opens the refrigerator and starts to eat from it,” Blinken said he saw in the video.posted by gwint at 7:29 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The top US diplomat expressed sympathy for the plight of Palestinians civilians as well, saying he sees his own children when he sees images of “Palestinian children, young boys and girls, pulled from the wreckage and buildings.”
“Hamas doesn't care one second or one iota for the welfare, for the well-being of the Palestinian people,” said Blinken. “It cynically and monstrously uses them as human shields, putting his commanders in command posts, its weapons and ammunition, within or beneath residential buildings, schools, mosques, hospitals.”
The Guardian: Jabalia Camp Airstrike - a visual analysis. Hamas reports at least 195 dead. The Guardian counts at least 5 craters. The IDF claims they were targeting a senior Hamas commander who was leading the fighting in Northern Gaza from a network of tunnels under the camp, and that the tunnel collapse worsened the collateral damage.
Hamas using a tunnel to make a pop-up ambush on an IDF tank with an IED and a tandem warhead RPG. Additional footage of Hamas fighters using the tunnels and firing RPGs at IDF tanks.
IDF operation blowing up a similar looking tunnel system in Gaza.
Hamas drone attack on IDF soldiers, using a grenade. In reference to speculation earlier about why communications were disrupted before the attack, I believe it will soon be standard procedure to blanket the combat zone with full spectrum jamming to mitigate the impact of drone attacks and disrupt enemy communications. IDF has so far suffered 18 soldier deaths (Reuters) since the ground offensive began.
Palestinians eating a meal while dozens of rockets destined for Israel fly overhead. I thought the banal juxtaposition was interesting: one commenter says the women is praying the rockets hit their targets. This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
posted by xdvesper at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hamas using a tunnel to make a pop-up ambush on an IDF tank with an IED and a tandem warhead RPG. Additional footage of Hamas fighters using the tunnels and firing RPGs at IDF tanks.
IDF operation blowing up a similar looking tunnel system in Gaza.
Hamas drone attack on IDF soldiers, using a grenade. In reference to speculation earlier about why communications were disrupted before the attack, I believe it will soon be standard procedure to blanket the combat zone with full spectrum jamming to mitigate the impact of drone attacks and disrupt enemy communications. IDF has so far suffered 18 soldier deaths (Reuters) since the ground offensive began.
Palestinians eating a meal while dozens of rockets destined for Israel fly overhead. I thought the banal juxtaposition was interesting: one commenter says the women is praying the rockets hit their targets. This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
posted by xdvesper at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
What possible peace plan could be negotiated in good faith with Hamas?
I'm fairly sure no one is proposing a peace deal with Hamas because, as you note, Hamas has no interest in dealing in good faith. I'm fine with the idea of ending Hamas and I suspect most people are.
People are just opposed to the current Israel plan to "attack Hamas" by murdering a large number of civilians and saying it doesn't matter because they're "human shields" or "collatoral damage".
Many people, and I"m among them, suspect that the Maximal Zionism faction in Israel, the faction that wants Israel to exist at roughly its Biblical borders and for all Palestinians in the as yet unreclaimed territory to be evicted, is using 10/7 as a pretext to achieve that goal without openly admitting that's what they're doing.
As a plan to end Hamas the current proposal from Israel, a long bombing campaign to raze Gaza and make it uninhabitable followed by a long ground campaign and no actual specified end goal or condition, is terrible both from a military and humanitarian standpoint. But as a plan to drive out or kill the Palestinian population of Gaza and then take over without admitting that's the actual goal it's pretty good.
and, of course, we see the same Maximal Zionism plan at work in the West Bank where the project of eradicating the Palestinian population and claiming all land there for Israel via "settlers" stealing land and houses at gunpoint and killing or evicting the owners is proceeding as well as Netanyahu and his associates could desire. They're accelerating things by giving the "settlers" even more and bigger weapons as well as even more IDF support in their project to evict and/or kill all the Palestinians in the West Bank.
I'm not a strategist or tactician. I don't know what a better approach would entail (except a lot less or even no bombing). But I do know that it's impossible to defeat a guerrilla movement without genocide, as long as that guerrilla movement has popular support.
To me it would see that the correct approach is to end the popular support not to engage in genocide.
I'll also note that "ending Hamas" via genocide is going to create a long term problem for Israel because it will instantly create a successor organization to Hamas built by the people who will be looking for revenge on Israel because of the genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 7:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
I'm fairly sure no one is proposing a peace deal with Hamas because, as you note, Hamas has no interest in dealing in good faith. I'm fine with the idea of ending Hamas and I suspect most people are.
People are just opposed to the current Israel plan to "attack Hamas" by murdering a large number of civilians and saying it doesn't matter because they're "human shields" or "collatoral damage".
Many people, and I"m among them, suspect that the Maximal Zionism faction in Israel, the faction that wants Israel to exist at roughly its Biblical borders and for all Palestinians in the as yet unreclaimed territory to be evicted, is using 10/7 as a pretext to achieve that goal without openly admitting that's what they're doing.
As a plan to end Hamas the current proposal from Israel, a long bombing campaign to raze Gaza and make it uninhabitable followed by a long ground campaign and no actual specified end goal or condition, is terrible both from a military and humanitarian standpoint. But as a plan to drive out or kill the Palestinian population of Gaza and then take over without admitting that's the actual goal it's pretty good.
and, of course, we see the same Maximal Zionism plan at work in the West Bank where the project of eradicating the Palestinian population and claiming all land there for Israel via "settlers" stealing land and houses at gunpoint and killing or evicting the owners is proceeding as well as Netanyahu and his associates could desire. They're accelerating things by giving the "settlers" even more and bigger weapons as well as even more IDF support in their project to evict and/or kill all the Palestinians in the West Bank.
I'm not a strategist or tactician. I don't know what a better approach would entail (except a lot less or even no bombing). But I do know that it's impossible to defeat a guerrilla movement without genocide, as long as that guerrilla movement has popular support.
To me it would see that the correct approach is to end the popular support not to engage in genocide.
I'll also note that "ending Hamas" via genocide is going to create a long term problem for Israel because it will instantly create a successor organization to Hamas built by the people who will be looking for revenge on Israel because of the genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 7:50 AM on November 3, 2023 [32 favorites]
More parallels with the post-9/11 world, from Times of Israel:
IDF soldiers film themselves abusing, humiliating West Bank Palestinians
It links to the videos on Twitter, but you can copy the links, post them in the search bar at nitter.net and view them at that mirror site, like this one of an IDF soldier forcing a blindfolded and zip-tied Palestinian to dance with him (FWIW, Google has the Hebrew caption as "The only thing you humiliate is the IDF uniform"). The IDF released a statement saying "One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service" but it's not clear what's being done with the others.
The article also discusses the ramping up of settler violence against rural Palestinian villages - burning homes, throwing rocks, leaving notes threatening murder if families don't leave - and links to this page at the independent nonprofit 972mag.com:
Settler-soldier militias threaten Susiya with death and displacement:
Ahmad Jaber Nawajah lives in Susiya with his wife and two daughters, aged 7 and 8. At 8 p.m. on Oct. 28, two masked settlers in army uniform broke into their home and started destroying their belongings and taking photos of everything...At 11 p.m. a civilian car with a yellow Israeli license plate arrived at the entrance of the home, and five uniformed men — two of whom were masked — stepped out. They started searching around the outside of the house, and eventually broke into the family’s home again...
Eventually, the men finished photographing and grabbed Nawajah and his brother Muhammad, forcing them to leave the house and ordering them to sit on the ground about 130 feet away. Nawajah, who does not understand Hebrew, sat down on a rock instead of the ground, and one of the settlers started to beat him, grabbing him by the back of the neck and shoving his face into the ground. When Muhammad began to protest, the settlers began kicking and punching him all over his body. One of the settlers then threatened the two brothers, telling them that they have 24 hours to leave their home, or they would come back, shoot them, and destroy their house.
At this point, Israeli military vehicles arrived at the scene and soldiers ordered Nawajah to produce his ID. He went home to retrieve it, while Muhammad explained to the soldiers that the settlers had beaten and threatened to kill them. The soldiers told Muhammad to be quiet and that they should go back into their homes. As Nawajah and Muhammad did so, the settlers repeated their threat, in front of the soldiers.
As the article notes, none of this is new; it's been going on for years, just at a low enough level that it rarely made U.S. TV news shows.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
IDF soldiers film themselves abusing, humiliating West Bank Palestinians
It links to the videos on Twitter, but you can copy the links, post them in the search bar at nitter.net and view them at that mirror site, like this one of an IDF soldier forcing a blindfolded and zip-tied Palestinian to dance with him (FWIW, Google has the Hebrew caption as "The only thing you humiliate is the IDF uniform"). The IDF released a statement saying "One soldier has been dismissed from reserve service" but it's not clear what's being done with the others.
The article also discusses the ramping up of settler violence against rural Palestinian villages - burning homes, throwing rocks, leaving notes threatening murder if families don't leave - and links to this page at the independent nonprofit 972mag.com:
Settler-soldier militias threaten Susiya with death and displacement:
Ahmad Jaber Nawajah lives in Susiya with his wife and two daughters, aged 7 and 8. At 8 p.m. on Oct. 28, two masked settlers in army uniform broke into their home and started destroying their belongings and taking photos of everything...At 11 p.m. a civilian car with a yellow Israeli license plate arrived at the entrance of the home, and five uniformed men — two of whom were masked — stepped out. They started searching around the outside of the house, and eventually broke into the family’s home again...
Eventually, the men finished photographing and grabbed Nawajah and his brother Muhammad, forcing them to leave the house and ordering them to sit on the ground about 130 feet away. Nawajah, who does not understand Hebrew, sat down on a rock instead of the ground, and one of the settlers started to beat him, grabbing him by the back of the neck and shoving his face into the ground. When Muhammad began to protest, the settlers began kicking and punching him all over his body. One of the settlers then threatened the two brothers, telling them that they have 24 hours to leave their home, or they would come back, shoot them, and destroy their house.
At this point, Israeli military vehicles arrived at the scene and soldiers ordered Nawajah to produce his ID. He went home to retrieve it, while Muhammad explained to the soldiers that the settlers had beaten and threatened to kill them. The soldiers told Muhammad to be quiet and that they should go back into their homes. As Nawajah and Muhammad did so, the settlers repeated their threat, in front of the soldiers.
As the article notes, none of this is new; it's been going on for years, just at a low enough level that it rarely made U.S. TV news shows.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
RE: tunnels
Obviously pumping tunnels full of seawater is a terrible idea that would result in massive ecological catastrophe. But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume? Or even just nitrogen gas to suffocate the people using the tunnels?
Is there any reason other than the desire to harm civlians and raze surface structures for Israel to be taking a bomb only approah to the tunnels?
posted by sotonohito at 7:58 AM on November 3, 2023
Obviously pumping tunnels full of seawater is a terrible idea that would result in massive ecological catastrophe. But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume? Or even just nitrogen gas to suffocate the people using the tunnels?
Is there any reason other than the desire to harm civlians and raze surface structures for Israel to be taking a bomb only approah to the tunnels?
posted by sotonohito at 7:58 AM on November 3, 2023
This is another kind of disputed "proportionality" relative to the other two I mentioned earlier - in this exchange of fire, Gaza has launched about 8,000 rockets at Israel, while Israel has dropped 10,000 bombs into Gaza.
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
posted by lalochezia at 8:30 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
How many people are they trying to kill, though? Do you think they'd fire less if they all landed where intended? Or, more? If you asked Hamas leaders "how many Israelis would you like to see dead" do you think you'd get some kind of philosophical answer about proportionality? It'd be about as sane as the Greater Israel crowd.
But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume?
In this economy?
Also, because then you'd be recharging their water table. Which ought to be a bonus, but....
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2023
But why not fresh water? Or the construction foam that expands to thousands of times its liquid volume?
In this economy?
Also, because then you'd be recharging their water table. Which ought to be a bonus, but....
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:51 AM on November 3, 2023
What galls me about all this situation is that the person (or the group, or the state) must do what is right. There is no "the other guy is bad so I use any tactics and I am still the good guy" exemption. There's definitely questions about what exactly is right - the Israeli state has an obligation to its own citizens, you don't need to just walk up to the fence and bare your neck - but it is clear that killing at least 9500 people and probably more, mostly civilians and no end in sight, mocking your torture victims, telling people to flee south and then bombing the south, dropping bombs on hospitals, letting your own people kill and threaten in order to steal land on the West Bank, describe obvious civilians as terrorists in order to incite hatred...it's clear that those things aren't right and they would not be right if Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were all in the middle of Gaza.
There is no "Hamas fired some rockets and therefore I am justified in bombing civilians". That's not how it works. You are justified in doing whatever the least destructive plausible thing is to stop Hamas firing rockets, that's all, with the understanding that it may take a little effort to work out what that is.
The most common American movie trope is "if you fight too cruelly against monsters you become a monster", but I forgot that only applies to the left wing to keep the left wing quiet and/or demonized.
posted by Frowner at 9:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
There is no "Hamas fired some rockets and therefore I am justified in bombing civilians". That's not how it works. You are justified in doing whatever the least destructive plausible thing is to stop Hamas firing rockets, that's all, with the understanding that it may take a little effort to work out what that is.
The most common American movie trope is "if you fight too cruelly against monsters you become a monster", but I forgot that only applies to the left wing to keep the left wing quiet and/or demonized.
posted by Frowner at 9:02 AM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Anyone urging any solution that does not include full democratic rights for Palestinians and a promise of safety from violence is deluding themselves.
You cannot kill your way to a complacent population.
This is a lesson that hegemonic powers have learned time and time again and yet they continue to repeat it, to appease the bloodlust of both local and global onlookers, and to project an image of strength without mercy.
There is no amount of killing that will undo the horrors of Oct. 7th.
Israel knows that unless they literally get rid of all Palestinians, they will be facing more, and worse, Oct. 7ths in the future.
Again: you cannot murder a population into complacency.
You can either provide a political solution that is more favourable than following a group of fanatical rebels, or you can kill them all.
But you cannot beat, starve, strangle, destroy, and humiliate them into never rising up again.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
You cannot kill your way to a complacent population.
This is a lesson that hegemonic powers have learned time and time again and yet they continue to repeat it, to appease the bloodlust of both local and global onlookers, and to project an image of strength without mercy.
There is no amount of killing that will undo the horrors of Oct. 7th.
Israel knows that unless they literally get rid of all Palestinians, they will be facing more, and worse, Oct. 7ths in the future.
Again: you cannot murder a population into complacency.
You can either provide a political solution that is more favourable than following a group of fanatical rebels, or you can kill them all.
But you cannot beat, starve, strangle, destroy, and humiliate them into never rising up again.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:13 AM on November 3, 2023 [26 favorites]
The thing that gets me is that the IDF didn't respond to Hamas rocket fire by blowing entire neighborhoods to hell. They built a security perimeter at vast expense, an anti-rocket system at vast expense (I think with some American funding), occasionally blew up a rocket factory, etc. It was something Israel could live with.
If they had had advance knowledge of the attack they would not have preempted it by unleashing this sort of barrage. They would have blown up some Hamas commanders (probably by exploding a few apartment buildings, which would have been horrible but not as bad) and strengthened the security zone around the strip. Maybe some more stuff, but it would have been much less than this.
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
If they had had advance knowledge of the attack they would not have preempted it by unleashing this sort of barrage. They would have blown up some Hamas commanders (probably by exploding a few apartment buildings, which would have been horrible but not as bad) and strengthened the security zone around the strip. Maybe some more stuff, but it would have been much less than this.
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
National "Free Palestine" march tomorrow in D.C.
posted by mediareport at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 9:43 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have
Don't know why that seems strange. If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Don't know why that seems strange. If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 9:47 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
> If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
That is why it is strange. You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is why it is strange. You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 9:55 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
video: Israel has just bombed the main entrance of Al Shifaa hospital
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 10:01 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
posted by kmt at 10:01 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
You would think that the Israeli government had learned the brutal lessons of 9/11 and yet their every action before and after Oct. 7th tells us that is not the case.
Was the US response to 9/11 bad for Bush and co? was it bad for all the war's cheerleaders in the press? No, not at all. Maybe the Israeli government did learn the lessons of 9/11.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
Was the US response to 9/11 bad for Bush and co? was it bad for all the war's cheerleaders in the press? No, not at all. Maybe the Israeli government did learn the lessons of 9/11.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:05 AM on November 3, 2023 [10 favorites]
(content warning: dead children, pools of blood, bombed out ambulances)
Don't look away!
Sharing links with NSFW imagery seems fine (with appropriate flagging, like you did), but the urging people to look at it is a bit off. It's there and available, but lots of people have all kinds of reasonable reasons to not choose to look, and that choice isn't out of a lack of care for the victims.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Don't look away!
Sharing links with NSFW imagery seems fine (with appropriate flagging, like you did), but the urging people to look at it is a bit off. It's there and available, but lots of people have all kinds of reasonable reasons to not choose to look, and that choice isn't out of a lack of care for the victims.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:08 AM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
On the other hand, there are absolutely people who seem to have an idea of this war as somehow bloodless, or Palestinians as less than real. At least, that's one of the possible explanations for some of the wild, dehumanizing and minimizing shit that has been posted here. There are people here who could do to remember that this is what Israeli "proportionality" looks like, and that Israel has other choices than to do this, no matter how little you think of Palestine. This is what they're advocating for, and they should look at what they're describing with their weasel words.
posted by sagc at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
It's a call for those who are able to bear witness, it's fine.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on November 3, 2023 [16 favorites]
I also have appreciated very much that the Ukraine threads very rarely include links directly to the disturbing imagery and videos. All of that, for both conflicts, is easily available in so many places (including on front pages of newspapers, much less on Reddit/Telegram/Twitter) and it's nice to be able to have a conversation here without having it shoved front and center.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023
posted by Dip Flash at 10:12 AM on November 3, 2023
I mean, would it have been better without the link? I think it's important to acknowledge what's actually happening, not just discuss abstractions.
posted by sagc at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by sagc at 10:14 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
So it is a bit strange that in a world where the attack succeeded, Israel cannot allow Hamas to continue to exist, but in a world where the attack failed, it almost certainly would have. Even though it would be the same exact organization.
BungaDunga, you've very neatly captured a point I've been trying and failing to put succinct words to, thank you!
(I see one person immediately jumped on this point to snark the shit out of it -- no need to do that, it doesn't contribute to the conversation and it ignores that this point is, while not an answer, at least a relevant starting point to all the "What else should Israel do?" comments throughout this thread.)
posted by kensington314 at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
BungaDunga, you've very neatly captured a point I've been trying and failing to put succinct words to, thank you!
(I see one person immediately jumped on this point to snark the shit out of it -- no need to do that, it doesn't contribute to the conversation and it ignores that this point is, while not an answer, at least a relevant starting point to all the "What else should Israel do?" comments throughout this thread.)
posted by kensington314 at 10:16 AM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
One has killed >9500 people, including thousands of children..... and the other has killed ? . I can't find numbers. One or ten is too many, but it's a damn sight less than 9500.
Iron Dome is the reason Hamas's rocket attacks haven't killed the same amount of Israelis. It's not that Hamas' rockets are ineffective, it's that Israeli countermeasures are effective against rocket attacks. What October 7th proved is that Israel was too reliant on Iron Dome to protect them from Hamas. There's a world in which they responded by reconsidering their defensive strategy. That is a vastly better world with a vastly better Israel than the one that exists.
There's a line of reasoning where Israel simply can't afford to take the high ground with Hamas, because they are vulnerable on so many fronts. They are not actually all-powerful. Iron Dome can be overwhelmed. It's not the case that Israel can just sit tight and weather whatever. This line of reasoning would be more convincing if Israel's response wasn't very obviously making everything worse for their situation vis a vis other threats. The arguments that the blockade of Gaza is necessary for Israel's security would also be more convincing if Israel wasn't doing everything they think they can get away with to claw back land in the West Bank and terrorize the population there. Likewise, there's reasonable room for disagreement about whether Israel is inherently a settler colonial state and has been from its inception. But anyone who argues yes on that side, when challenged, can point to what's happening in the West Bank right now as indisputably settler colonialism, either implicitly changing the question or using that to support their answer to the original question. Israel is doing itself no favors on any front and hasn't been for a very long time.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Iron Dome is the reason Hamas's rocket attacks haven't killed the same amount of Israelis. It's not that Hamas' rockets are ineffective, it's that Israeli countermeasures are effective against rocket attacks. What October 7th proved is that Israel was too reliant on Iron Dome to protect them from Hamas. There's a world in which they responded by reconsidering their defensive strategy. That is a vastly better world with a vastly better Israel than the one that exists.
There's a line of reasoning where Israel simply can't afford to take the high ground with Hamas, because they are vulnerable on so many fronts. They are not actually all-powerful. Iron Dome can be overwhelmed. It's not the case that Israel can just sit tight and weather whatever. This line of reasoning would be more convincing if Israel's response wasn't very obviously making everything worse for their situation vis a vis other threats. The arguments that the blockade of Gaza is necessary for Israel's security would also be more convincing if Israel wasn't doing everything they think they can get away with to claw back land in the West Bank and terrorize the population there. Likewise, there's reasonable room for disagreement about whether Israel is inherently a settler colonial state and has been from its inception. But anyone who argues yes on that side, when challenged, can point to what's happening in the West Bank right now as indisputably settler colonialism, either implicitly changing the question or using that to support their answer to the original question. Israel is doing itself no favors on any front and hasn't been for a very long time.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:18 AM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I mean, would it have been better without the link?
No, it would have been better without the tacky push to have people look.
Seriously, do you really in your heart of hearts think that the people here who are saying things you believe are wrong, but if they looked at yet one more photo of dead children they would suddenly change their minds? If in return they posted graphic links to images from October 7, would you suddenly change your mind?
posted by Dip Flash at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
No, it would have been better without the tacky push to have people look.
Seriously, do you really in your heart of hearts think that the people here who are saying things you believe are wrong, but if they looked at yet one more photo of dead children they would suddenly change their minds? If in return they posted graphic links to images from October 7, would you suddenly change your mind?
posted by Dip Flash at 10:19 AM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Can't believe I'm coming around here to recommend an NYT columnist since that's the point of someone's career where they've ended the productive period of their working life, but I would recommend Ezra Klein's interview with Amaney Jamal.
The day before Hamas’s horrific attacks in Israel, the Arab Barometer, one of the leading polling operations in the Arab world, was finishing up a survey of public opinion in Gaza.She goes into real depth on Palestinian perspectives on Hamas, the Palestinian Authority, Israel, plus the impact of changing demography (age, primarily), and on and on. In particular I'd recommend the point from about 00:19:00 onwards, where she discusses the idea that previous negotiations have "failed," and the need for future negotiations. (That's a heavy paraphrase, rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas, at least as I recall.)posted by kensington314 at 10:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The result is a remarkable snapshot of how Gazans felt about Hamas and hoped the conflict with Israel would end. And what Gazans were thinking on Oct. 6 matters, now that they’re all living with the brutal consequences of what Hamas did on Oct. 7.
If we lived in a world where the Bush administration had paid attention to any of the warning signs for the 9/11 hijackers, the entire 21st Century would be going very differently.
I thought about mentioning that too, but it felt a bit of a derail. I'm not sure the US wouldn't have gone all-in on a War on Terror even if 9/11 had been foiled, we had already tried to kill bin Laden, there were probably enough Bushies excited about regime change that any anti-alQueda operations would have escalated to regime change anyway. It all kind of seemed overdetermined. Whereas I never got the sense that Israel's rulers were really united in excitement about a Gaza war, but that could just be my ignorance.
rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas,
Israel is already negotiating with Hamas over the hostages, for what it's worth.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I thought about mentioning that too, but it felt a bit of a derail. I'm not sure the US wouldn't have gone all-in on a War on Terror even if 9/11 had been foiled, we had already tried to kill bin Laden, there were probably enough Bushies excited about regime change that any anti-alQueda operations would have escalated to regime change anyway. It all kind of seemed overdetermined. Whereas I never got the sense that Israel's rulers were really united in excitement about a Gaza war, but that could just be my ignorance.
rest assured she's not asking Israel to negotiate with Hamas,
Israel is already negotiating with Hamas over the hostages, for what it's worth.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:33 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'd suggest that it is incorrect to imagine that the Hamas which fails to pull off this attack in a different timeline is actually the same organization as the Hamas that succeeded.
Perhaps from an internal standpoint that is so, the leaders would be the same people after all.
Both versions of Hamas had the same history of awful but from a national standpoint merely irritating attacks, the same genocidal rhetoric about Israel and Jews, etc
But our version of Hamas is different in that it succeeded and thereby showed it is a more credible threat. Even if that success and increase in threat credibility is due entirely to Israel dropping the ball.
From the standpoint of outside observers the Hamas that succeeds is dangerous enough that many people, people otherwise of good will and intent, believe that genocide in Gaza is an acceptable price to pay for unearthing and destroying that Hamas.
Those same observers, if 10/7 was just another ho hum thwarted attack, would not believe it was justified to engage in devistating war that razez Gaza to destory Hamas.
From our POV there is a vast difference in the two hypothetical Hamases.
posted by sotonohito at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Perhaps from an internal standpoint that is so, the leaders would be the same people after all.
Both versions of Hamas had the same history of awful but from a national standpoint merely irritating attacks, the same genocidal rhetoric about Israel and Jews, etc
But our version of Hamas is different in that it succeeded and thereby showed it is a more credible threat. Even if that success and increase in threat credibility is due entirely to Israel dropping the ball.
From the standpoint of outside observers the Hamas that succeeds is dangerous enough that many people, people otherwise of good will and intent, believe that genocide in Gaza is an acceptable price to pay for unearthing and destroying that Hamas.
Those same observers, if 10/7 was just another ho hum thwarted attack, would not believe it was justified to engage in devistating war that razez Gaza to destory Hamas.
From our POV there is a vast difference in the two hypothetical Hamases.
posted by sotonohito at 10:46 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Strikes on south Gaza: BBC verifies attacks in areas of ‘safety’ - sorry, I did a quick search but didn't find this linked, as it's dated already 2 days ago.
To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south.
Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued.
The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media.
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
To better understand the risk to civilians in south Gaza, BBC Verify has identified and analysed four specific instances of strikes in that region. We also looked at some of the warnings and evacuation instructions that were issued to Gazan civilians, including some advising them to move to certain areas in the south.
Some of these warnings were accompanied by maps with arrows pointing to vaguely defined areas to move towards. Three strikes we examined hit within, or close to, those areas in the days after the warnings were issued.
The IDF has said that it communicates with Gaza's residents in a variety of ways, including leaflet drops, social media posts in Arabic, and warnings issued through civilian and international organisations. In this piece we have examined the IDF's instructions posted on social media.
posted by cendawanita at 11:27 AM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
NYTimes: Jewish Viewers Find a Refuge in Fox News
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:39 AM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Dr Mark: Been talking to some of my Thai friends. They are well aware of the exploitation of Thai workers in Israel. One died recently and his diary showed he worked 17 to 18 hours a day on an Israeli farm. Their message to Palestinians? สู้ๆนะครับ !! 🇹🇭🇵🇸
สู้ๆนะครับ suu suu na krap/kha means something like "keep fighting, fight hard". It's a common expression of solidarity and encouragement.
Unrelated but also from the region: Maria Ressa of The Rappler and recent Nobel peace prize recipient, reflecting Filipino general establishment sentiment, tweeted a post that says 'from the river to the sea' is antisemitic and people shouldn't avoid condemning Hamas. That was 2 days ago and even on an anemic twitter it still got ratio'd hard, mainly from other Filipinos.
posted by cendawanita at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
สู้ๆนะครับ suu suu na krap/kha means something like "keep fighting, fight hard". It's a common expression of solidarity and encouragement.
Unrelated but also from the region: Maria Ressa of The Rappler and recent Nobel peace prize recipient, reflecting Filipino general establishment sentiment, tweeted a post that says 'from the river to the sea' is antisemitic and people shouldn't avoid condemning Hamas. That was 2 days ago and even on an anemic twitter it still got ratio'd hard, mainly from other Filipinos.
posted by cendawanita at 11:42 AM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
The bombing of the ambulance convoy is an unjustified war crime. The Israelis have said evacuate the hospital. According to Red Cross / Red Crescent the IDF is refusing to coordinate with them or provide safe passage. The ambulances were carrying civilians and marked as ambulances. The US should demand an immediate humanitarian pause; but they won’t.
I understand there is a big difference between humanitarian pause and a ceasefire. I think that a humanitarian pause might create the space to get a full ceasefire — first you have a pause; then you extend it and then you keep extending it until you get a ceasefire.
posted by interogative mood at 11:52 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
I understand there is a big difference between humanitarian pause and a ceasefire. I think that a humanitarian pause might create the space to get a full ceasefire — first you have a pause; then you extend it and then you keep extending it until you get a ceasefire.
posted by interogative mood at 11:52 AM on November 3, 2023 [13 favorites]
NYTimes: Jewish Viewers Find a Refuge in Fox News
One step to further alignment with neo-Nazi and white supremacist politicians, groups, and media outlets in the United States.
One challenge for even the most conservative of Jews in joining Nazi/white supremacy groups is that, regardless of the perception of European-descended Jews by many North Americans, the Nazis still think they are not white. The crazy convoy put a holocaust denier on their main stage up in Ottawa.
I'm not saying there aren't some deluded conservative (or Conservative) Jews who think that the Nazis aren't a problem, but the Nazis are still very concerned with "the Jewish problem".
posted by jb at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2023
One step to further alignment with neo-Nazi and white supremacist politicians, groups, and media outlets in the United States.
One challenge for even the most conservative of Jews in joining Nazi/white supremacy groups is that, regardless of the perception of European-descended Jews by many North Americans, the Nazis still think they are not white. The crazy convoy put a holocaust denier on their main stage up in Ottawa.
I'm not saying there aren't some deluded conservative (or Conservative) Jews who think that the Nazis aren't a problem, but the Nazis are still very concerned with "the Jewish problem".
posted by jb at 12:16 PM on November 3, 2023
I can’t read this because of the paywall, but it sure sounds like contentless, antisemitic click bait. The lede says they talked to some Jewish folks at a diner. Classic NYT, not news.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 12:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
It reminds me of the other article on black expats - built on an assertion it refuses to support.
posted by Selena777 at 12:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 12:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The lede says they talked to some Jewish folks at a diner. Classic NYT, not news.
Not even that. It's based on FOX ITSELF doing a live show from a NYC deli.
From which an aptly named commenter asserted alignment of Jews with Nazis.
Some interlocutors in this thread deserve rather more attention than others.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not even that. It's based on FOX ITSELF doing a live show from a NYC deli.
From which an aptly named commenter asserted alignment of Jews with Nazis.
Some interlocutors in this thread deserve rather more attention than others.
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:07 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
Early this morning Protestors at the Port of Oakland, CA are blocking a US ship that will be sending military weapons to Israel - Twitter. Current position via MarineTraffic: mv Cape Orlando
posted by Lanark at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Lanark at 2:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
it's clear that those things aren't right and they would not be right if Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot were all in the middle of Gaza
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel. not a great analogy as Pol Pot would be defending from an overwhelming Force all the while killing his own people with the aid of children soldiers.
"Iranian-backed militants, including LH, conducted 28 attacks into northern Israel on November 2, which is the largest offensive on this front since the Israel-Hamas War began."
Iranian Supreme National Security Council Secretary Rear Admiral Ali Akbar Ahmadian met with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Special Representative for Syrian Affairs Alexander Lavrentiev in Tehran on November 1 The two officials discussed the Israel-Hamas war, joint political and security cooperation, and cooperation in Syria. Lavrentiev also delivered a message from Putin to Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi."
"An Iranian media delegation traveled to Lebanon to meet with Palestinian militia commanders on November 2, likely in part to coordinate Axis of Resistance messaging and information operations"
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 2:13 PM on November 3, 2023
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel. not a great analogy as Pol Pot would be defending from an overwhelming Force all the while killing his own people with the aid of children soldiers.
"Iranian-backed militants, including LH, conducted 28 attacks into northern Israel on November 2, which is the largest offensive on this front since the Israel-Hamas War began."
Iranian Supreme National Security Council Secretary Rear Admiral Ali Akbar Ahmadian met with Russian President Vladimir Putin’s Special Representative for Syrian Affairs Alexander Lavrentiev in Tehran on November 1 The two officials discussed the Israel-Hamas war, joint political and security cooperation, and cooperation in Syria. Lavrentiev also delivered a message from Putin to Iranian President Ebrahim Raisi."
"An Iranian media delegation traveled to Lebanon to meet with Palestinian militia commanders on November 2, likely in part to coordinate Axis of Resistance messaging and information operations"
ISW
posted by clavdivs at 2:13 PM on November 3, 2023
Not that I agree with Israel’s justification for the bombing of tunnels as opposed to other methods; but for context and information this is how they justify it.
Iron Dome is very expensive. So simply turtling down and allowing the unrestricted bombardment from Gaza is not sustainable. Israel is a small country and a large army. So when they mobilize the reservists that is pretty much everyone who can fight. This isn’t like the US or Ukraine or Russia where you can expand conscription to replace the soldiers you lose . They also have to be careful when attacking any target not to overcommit their forces and end up vulnerable to a rapid attack from Syria or Lebanon. Israel lacks geographic depth. Israel builds its war plans under these constraints. The want quick, overwhelming destruction of the enemy with low risk to their own forces.
There are more civilian friendly ways to attack the tunnels, including expanding foam, water and flame throwers those all require putting soldiers at much higher risk than dropping a bomb. Keep in mind the tunnels have multiple hidden entrances and exits. They are surrounded by building that provide cover for snipers and counter attacks. Ground attacks into urban areas usually result in lots of casualties.
Therefore when the cold blooded war planners are given the order to destroy Hamas this is the war plan they come up with. They don’t see an alternative way to win. This doesn’t mean they ignore every humanitarian concern. Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I think their objective is impossible. So whatever justification Israel has is irrelevant. The justification is only valid if there is some chance of success. I don’t subscribe to the notion that any military response is unjustifiable. I just don’t see a strategy here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Iron Dome is very expensive. So simply turtling down and allowing the unrestricted bombardment from Gaza is not sustainable. Israel is a small country and a large army. So when they mobilize the reservists that is pretty much everyone who can fight. This isn’t like the US or Ukraine or Russia where you can expand conscription to replace the soldiers you lose . They also have to be careful when attacking any target not to overcommit their forces and end up vulnerable to a rapid attack from Syria or Lebanon. Israel lacks geographic depth. Israel builds its war plans under these constraints. The want quick, overwhelming destruction of the enemy with low risk to their own forces.
There are more civilian friendly ways to attack the tunnels, including expanding foam, water and flame throwers those all require putting soldiers at much higher risk than dropping a bomb. Keep in mind the tunnels have multiple hidden entrances and exits. They are surrounded by building that provide cover for snipers and counter attacks. Ground attacks into urban areas usually result in lots of casualties.
Therefore when the cold blooded war planners are given the order to destroy Hamas this is the war plan they come up with. They don’t see an alternative way to win. This doesn’t mean they ignore every humanitarian concern. Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I think their objective is impossible. So whatever justification Israel has is irrelevant. The justification is only valid if there is some chance of success. I don’t subscribe to the notion that any military response is unjustifiable. I just don’t see a strategy here.
posted by interogative mood at 2:19 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm going to assume Pol pot is in the role of israel
That's a very bizarre way to interpret a statement that says "this wouldn't be right if the 20th century's greatest mass murderers were in the middle of Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
That's a very bizarre way to interpret a statement that says "this wouldn't be right if the 20th century's greatest mass murderers were in the middle of Gaza".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
ohhhh, I see as in if Pol Pot was in Gaza, like living there, the bombing would not be justified. he'd just be citizen Sar.
How bizarre as Pol Pot lived in security for many years after he was ejected from power selling gemstones and rhetoric.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on November 3, 2023
How bizarre as Pol Pot lived in security for many years after he was ejected from power selling gemstones and rhetoric.
posted by clavdivs at 2:58 PM on November 3, 2023
I just don’t see a strategy here.
I tend to agree, while dated, The tunnels of Củ Chi is an interesting comparitive minus updated sensory technology.
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023
I tend to agree, while dated, The tunnels of Củ Chi is an interesting comparitive minus updated sensory technology.
posted by clavdivs at 3:03 PM on November 3, 2023
No, Pol Pot was not "in the role of Israel", my point was that murdering tons of civilians and sadistically lying to them about where they could flee then bombing them as they fled would not be justified even if, theoretically, you were trying to kill someone who was literally obviously right there and who individually, provably, intentionally enacted evil from a position of power and security. My point - one that I thought was pretty straightforward - is that all the logic-chopping about whether it's legit to bomb a bunch of civilians because Hamas also attempts to bomb civilians misses the elementary point that you don't get to do grossly immoral things even if someone else has done them.
posted by Frowner at 3:05 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 3:05 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel says that they bombed the ambulance because it "was identified by forces as being used by a Hamas terrorist cell in close proximity to their position in the battle zone."
They had no idea that the biggest attack in years was on its way, but they're pretty sure their intelligence is good enough to justify bombing an ambulance.
posted by clawsoon at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
They had no idea that the biggest attack in years was on its way, but they're pretty sure their intelligence is good enough to justify bombing an ambulance.
posted by clawsoon at 3:10 PM on November 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
I would have said a week ago that Israel would not be able to conduct a Russian style assault like we saw in Aleppo or Bahkmut, but I am increasingly pessimistic.
I appreciate this. I arrived at that pessimism when the 'evacuation zone' was designated; but was hoping to be wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on November 3, 2023
I appreciate this. I arrived at that pessimism when the 'evacuation zone' was designated; but was hoping to be wrong.
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:31 PM on November 3, 2023
sadistically lying to them about where they could flee then bombing them as they fled would not be justified even if, theoretically.
I see, thanks Frowner for clarification. Ironically, the contrast historically, is that Pot lied to the population of major cities in that they must evacuate because the Americans were going to bomb the cities.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023
I see, thanks Frowner for clarification. Ironically, the contrast historically, is that Pot lied to the population of major cities in that they must evacuate because the Americans were going to bomb the cities.
posted by clavdivs at 3:52 PM on November 3, 2023
The bombing of the ambulance convoy is an unjustified war crime. The Israelis have said evacuate the hospital.
The IDF has been working up to this for the past week, it wasn't something that came out of the blue.
It was a week ago that Israel shared publicly that it had concrete evidence that the hospital in question was being used as a Hamas base of operations and was part of their tunnel network and warned the hospital to evacuate. (some reporting by the Guardian on this hospital specifically, and use of human shield by Hamas in general). They also privately sent through more classified intelligence to their security partners, mainly the US, for vetting, I did see it in the news at the time but a quick Google search fails to turn up hits - anyway, we can assume the intelligence and defense agencies are in close and frequent contact.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes. The aggressor has to give a warning, with a time limit, and the other party has to have ignored that warning, before a strike is considered legal.
I'm fairly sure Israel would have "cleared" these strikes with their foreign partners, and I would guess they might have said, well, technically legal, but there's no way to manage the media fallout of this, so you're on your own.
posted by xdvesper at 4:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The IDF has been working up to this for the past week, it wasn't something that came out of the blue.
It was a week ago that Israel shared publicly that it had concrete evidence that the hospital in question was being used as a Hamas base of operations and was part of their tunnel network and warned the hospital to evacuate. (some reporting by the Guardian on this hospital specifically, and use of human shield by Hamas in general). They also privately sent through more classified intelligence to their security partners, mainly the US, for vetting, I did see it in the news at the time but a quick Google search fails to turn up hits - anyway, we can assume the intelligence and defense agencies are in close and frequent contact.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes. The aggressor has to give a warning, with a time limit, and the other party has to have ignored that warning, before a strike is considered legal.
I'm fairly sure Israel would have "cleared" these strikes with their foreign partners, and I would guess they might have said, well, technically legal, but there's no way to manage the media fallout of this, so you're on your own.
posted by xdvesper at 4:01 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Just that their models will allow many more civilian casualties than the US would allow.
Maybe in theory but the US did kill at least 300,000 and probably more civilians in Iraq not even 20 years ago.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes.
re: the hospital. It's true that a hospital loses its protected status if Hamas is using it. But for a lot of people that's not justification for the civilian casualties. A lot of the dynamic at play here follows the same pattern. If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents. Basically nothing Israel does militarily in gaza will be justifiable under that rubric because the axiom is that Israel going into Gaza is wrong on its face, so anything done in support of that is also unjustifiable.
Somebody doing a home invasion can't claim necessity or self defense if they use deadly force against the person in the home. If you believe Israel is in the role of the home invader in Gaza then of course you're going to reject the argument that something causing civilian casualties is justified; it's axiomatic.
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe in theory but the US did kill at least 300,000 and probably more civilians in Iraq not even 20 years ago.
Under the IHL/Geneva Conventions, a hospital loses its protected status if it is used for military purposes.
re: the hospital. It's true that a hospital loses its protected status if Hamas is using it. But for a lot of people that's not justification for the civilian casualties. A lot of the dynamic at play here follows the same pattern. If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents. Basically nothing Israel does militarily in gaza will be justifiable under that rubric because the axiom is that Israel going into Gaza is wrong on its face, so anything done in support of that is also unjustifiable.
Somebody doing a home invasion can't claim necessity or self defense if they use deadly force against the person in the home. If you believe Israel is in the role of the home invader in Gaza then of course you're going to reject the argument that something causing civilian casualties is justified; it's axiomatic.
posted by Justinian at 4:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am very sympathetic to Israel xdvesper but this was a convoy of ambulances that were transporting wounded away from the hospital . The hospital is apparently trying to evacuate and the red cross / red crescent has asked to coordinate these operations with the IDF but the IDF will not cooperate. The moral outrage generated among Israel’s allies by attacks like this are not going to be reduced by a legal analysis alone.
Israel cannot afford to fight a long war, no matter the justification without the sustaining the goodwill of the citizens of its allies. Actions like this undermine that.
It is the old adage: if a nation always ignores its national interests it will cease to exists; but if a country always
Ignores its values for the national interests what was the point of having a country. In diplomacy and war there must be a careful balance.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel cannot afford to fight a long war, no matter the justification without the sustaining the goodwill of the citizens of its allies. Actions like this undermine that.
It is the old adage: if a nation always ignores its national interests it will cease to exists; but if a country always
Ignores its values for the national interests what was the point of having a country. In diplomacy and war there must be a careful balance.
posted by interogative mood at 4:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am curious to know what proportion of Israeli attitudes are reflected by the comments section on Jerusalem Post articles, which is where I've seen the most consistently hardline English-language takes on the conflict. E.g., on the ambulance bombing.
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Good Lord but those are worse than I thought they could be
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 4:40 PM on November 3, 2023
If someone thinks that the Israeli operation in Gaza is wrong on its face or unjustified then obviously it's not going to be convincing when you say that a bombing a hospital is not a crime if its being used by the enemy military or insurgents.
I don't care if Osama bin Laden himself was reincarnated and hiding out in a tunnel underneath a hospital, bombing a hospital is not justified. If Israel wants to use proportionate force in a way that minimizes civilian casualties (i.e. boots on the ground), then I guess people can disagree about if this would be justified based on our broader beliefs about this war, but dropping bombs on hospitals with zero risk to your own side is abhorrent.
posted by ssg at 4:42 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't care if Osama bin Laden himself was reincarnated and hiding out in a tunnel underneath a hospital, bombing a hospital is not justified. If Israel wants to use proportionate force in a way that minimizes civilian casualties (i.e. boots on the ground), then I guess people can disagree about if this would be justified based on our broader beliefs about this war, but dropping bombs on hospitals with zero risk to your own side is abhorrent.
posted by ssg at 4:42 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
strike is considered legal
I don't care if it was allowable, I care that the people in charge thought it was in any way acceptable let alone advisable.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't care if it was allowable, I care that the people in charge thought it was in any way acceptable let alone advisable.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:56 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Good Lord but those are worse than I thought they could be
It's not completely surprising, given that the paper itself has an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews, but are instead people who "exploit and appropriate Jewish ritual items and texts, their Jewish names and backgrounds..."
I'm guessing that this is an extremely painful experience for people who are trying to do good things in the midst of all this horror.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
It's not completely surprising, given that the paper itself has an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews, but are instead people who "exploit and appropriate Jewish ritual items and texts, their Jewish names and backgrounds..."
I'm guessing that this is an extremely painful experience for people who are trying to do good things in the midst of all this horror.
posted by clawsoon at 5:06 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
The moral outrage generated among Israel’s allies by attacks like this are not going to be reduced by a legal analysis alone.
Agreed, Israel is pushing the limits of US government support to breaking point. Yet...
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel. It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way. Trump (or whoever the Republican party chooses) just goes full pro-Israel and their usual voters show up.
I would question at this point if the US government needs Israel more - or if Israel needs the US support more. It's no longer 1973. Israel exported $12.5 bil of arms in 2022 (Reuters), while only importing $3.2 bil from 2018-2022 (Al Jazeera). In the past, the US used the threat of withdrawing military arms as an existential threat to control Israel, but now, it might be Israel that is leading the US on a leash, because no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel.
CNBC's survey shows 39% say government policy should favor Israel, 6% say it should favor Palestinians, 36% say they should be treated the same, 19% are undecided. Joe Biden's approval is now at a historic 37% low and if they held an election right now Trump would probably win.
I'd view any statements or words from the US government more as a desperate attempt to stay in power rather than actually trying to figure out a good outcome for Palestinians or Israelis.
posted by xdvesper at 5:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agreed, Israel is pushing the limits of US government support to breaking point. Yet...
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel. It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way. Trump (or whoever the Republican party chooses) just goes full pro-Israel and their usual voters show up.
I would question at this point if the US government needs Israel more - or if Israel needs the US support more. It's no longer 1973. Israel exported $12.5 bil of arms in 2022 (Reuters), while only importing $3.2 bil from 2018-2022 (Al Jazeera). In the past, the US used the threat of withdrawing military arms as an existential threat to control Israel, but now, it might be Israel that is leading the US on a leash, because no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel.
CNBC's survey shows 39% say government policy should favor Israel, 6% say it should favor Palestinians, 36% say they should be treated the same, 19% are undecided. Joe Biden's approval is now at a historic 37% low and if they held an election right now Trump would probably win.
I'd view any statements or words from the US government more as a desperate attempt to stay in power rather than actually trying to figure out a good outcome for Palestinians or Israelis.
posted by xdvesper at 5:16 PM on November 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
an editorial which would have it that at least some of the Jewish people in this discussion aren't actually Jews
Identifying people who are against what looks a lot like indiscriminate slaughter as "pro-Hamas" is pretty appalling. The whole thing that's been happening of anathematising any expression of sympathy for the Palestinian people is very reminiscent of the anti-German hysteria in WWII, and it's leading to a lot of insane and illiberal proposals from lawmakers; there's a bill in the French Senate that would make "insulting the state of Israel" a criminal offence, and a Republican member of Congress wants to expel Palestinians from the country.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Identifying people who are against what looks a lot like indiscriminate slaughter as "pro-Hamas" is pretty appalling. The whole thing that's been happening of anathematising any expression of sympathy for the Palestinian people is very reminiscent of the anti-German hysteria in WWII, and it's leading to a lot of insane and illiberal proposals from lawmakers; there's a bill in the French Senate that would make "insulting the state of Israel" a criminal offence, and a Republican member of Congress wants to expel Palestinians from the country.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:18 PM on November 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
absolutely insane how many people will defend bombing ambulances and hospitals. i’m out!
posted by dis_integration at 5:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 5:21 PM on November 3, 2023 [18 favorites]
no US government can stay in power without taking into account the fact that its voters want to support Israel
I feel like that's no longer necessarily the case, at least for Democrats? A majority of voters under 50 in a recent poll oppose sending more arms to Israel, and Biden's support of Israel "with no red lines" looks like it's going to cost him Michigan next year (his support among Muslim voters has cratered).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like that's no longer necessarily the case, at least for Democrats? A majority of voters under 50 in a recent poll oppose sending more arms to Israel, and Biden's support of Israel "with no red lines" looks like it's going to cost him Michigan next year (his support among Muslim voters has cratered).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
It looks like checkmate for Biden: if he provides unwavering support for Israel, he loses the pro-Palestine vote, but if he demands a ceasefire, he loses the pro-Israel vote, so he loses the election either way.
A couple weeks ago, 2/3 of US voters supported a ceasefire (with 10% saying they don't know, so only 25% opposed), including 80% of Democrats. I imagine those numbers are even higher now. There's really nothing stopping Biden from at least calling for a ceasefire and the reason he isn't doing so has little to do with US public opinion.
posted by ssg at 5:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
A couple weeks ago, 2/3 of US voters supported a ceasefire (with 10% saying they don't know, so only 25% opposed), including 80% of Democrats. I imagine those numbers are even higher now. There's really nothing stopping Biden from at least calling for a ceasefire and the reason he isn't doing so has little to do with US public opinion.
posted by ssg at 5:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
I am curious to know what proportion of Israeli attitudes are reflected by the comments section on Jerusalem Post articles
I don't know the answer, but I very strongly suspect that anyone commenting there is highly unlikely to be Israeli. The Jerusalem Post is an English language newspaper, right-wing, and its primary audience is the diaspora. Israel Hayom, Yedioth Ahronoth, and Ha'aretz are the newspapers with the highest readership in Israel. Ha'aretz is considered the paper of record but has much lower circulation than the other two. I don't think reading the comment sections of those is a very good use of time either, especially in English, which is not the primary language of most Israelis, but that's up to you.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know the answer, but I very strongly suspect that anyone commenting there is highly unlikely to be Israeli. The Jerusalem Post is an English language newspaper, right-wing, and its primary audience is the diaspora. Israel Hayom, Yedioth Ahronoth, and Ha'aretz are the newspapers with the highest readership in Israel. Ha'aretz is considered the paper of record but has much lower circulation than the other two. I don't think reading the comment sections of those is a very good use of time either, especially in English, which is not the primary language of most Israelis, but that's up to you.
posted by cosmic owl at 6:12 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
If Biden's reputation is damaged enough by domestic opinion that he loses the election, Trump would end up being even better for Israel
Better for Netanyahu. Not better for Israel. Or anyone else, outside his coalition of enablers.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Better for Netanyahu. Not better for Israel. Or anyone else, outside his coalition of enablers.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Ah, so that's what a "humanitarian pause" means: Blinken tells Israelis humanitarian pause will buy Israel time for Gaza operation
Blinken's message, according to one U.S. and two Israeli officials, was: "We don't want to stop you, but help us help you get more time."posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:25 PM on November 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Excellent interview / profile of David Meidan Israel’s most seasoned hostage negotiator in the Economist.. One of the things that the article seems to reveal is just how little Israel and Hamas talk. The Israeli’s don’t even know who to talk to in order to get what they want. Neither does Hamas. It’s just a lot of posturing and press conferences full of demands.
posted by interogative mood at 6:47 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:47 PM on November 3, 2023
It f you think Donald Trump will be better for Netanyahu then think again. Donald Trump is a vindictive narcissist who only cares about Donald Trump. He isn’t going to forgive Netanyahu for giving Biden that hug and praise.
posted by interogative mood at 6:55 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:55 PM on November 3, 2023
You must be kidding me. They are both infinitely more instrumental than that.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:02 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
(And, what’s a hug compared to a subway station in the new capital? Bigly.)
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on November 3, 2023
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:08 PM on November 3, 2023
Ah, so that's what a "humanitarian pause" means: Blinken tells Israelis humanitarian pause will buy Israel time for Gaza operation
A lot of countries seem to be pussyfooting around Israel for whatever reasons. So as a diplomat, he may have to couch diplomatic advice in a way that appears to flatter/benefit its intended recipient, while actually intending to grant some small mercy to those civilians currently being slaughtered.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
A lot of countries seem to be pussyfooting around Israel for whatever reasons. So as a diplomat, he may have to couch diplomatic advice in a way that appears to flatter/benefit its intended recipient, while actually intending to grant some small mercy to those civilians currently being slaughtered.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:20 PM on November 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
Let's recall Israel's track record on telling the truth (e.g. re the murder of the Palestinian-American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh) when citing their justifications for bombing hospitals.
The Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who has been active in Gaza for more than 40 years, recently stated:
I will ask President Netanyahu to put on the table the proofs and the evidence that there is a control and command center for the Palestinian resistance in Shifa Hospital. We have heard these claims since 2009. We have twice been threatened to leave Shifa Hospital, in 2009 and 2014, because the Israelis were going to bomb it because it was a command center. Now, I have been working in Shifa for 16 years, 16 years on and off, in very hectic periods, very hectic periods. I’ve been able to walk freely around. I take lots of pictures. I video, film. I’ve been sleeping in the hospital during bombardment. I’ve been all over. I’ve never been restricted, controlled. Nobody has ever controlled my picture and documentation material. So, well, if there is a command center, show us. You have pictures and X-ray films of all Gaza, all the tunnels, everything. So, why is it that these 16 years of threats that Shifa is a command center has not been given any evidence at all that it de facto is? Now, if it was a military command center, I would not work there, because I obey to the Geneva Convention, number one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
The Norwegian doctor Mads Gilbert, who has been active in Gaza for more than 40 years, recently stated:
I will ask President Netanyahu to put on the table the proofs and the evidence that there is a control and command center for the Palestinian resistance in Shifa Hospital. We have heard these claims since 2009. We have twice been threatened to leave Shifa Hospital, in 2009 and 2014, because the Israelis were going to bomb it because it was a command center. Now, I have been working in Shifa for 16 years, 16 years on and off, in very hectic periods, very hectic periods. I’ve been able to walk freely around. I take lots of pictures. I video, film. I’ve been sleeping in the hospital during bombardment. I’ve been all over. I’ve never been restricted, controlled. Nobody has ever controlled my picture and documentation material. So, well, if there is a command center, show us. You have pictures and X-ray films of all Gaza, all the tunnels, everything. So, why is it that these 16 years of threats that Shifa is a command center has not been given any evidence at all that it de facto is? Now, if it was a military command center, I would not work there, because I obey to the Geneva Convention, number one.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 8:17 PM on November 3, 2023 [15 favorites]
That's just some random doctor though, as evidence it's no more convincing either way than some random doctor claiming that Ivermectin is an amazing cure-all based on a sample of his patients getting better.
The Guardian (as left leaning a news organization as you can find) states that Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
posted by xdvesper at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Guardian (as left leaning a news organization as you can find) states that Guardian journalists in 2014 encountered armed men inside one hospital, and sightings of senior Hamas leaders inside the Shifa hospital have been documented.
posted by xdvesper at 8:32 PM on November 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
"as left leaning a news organization as you can find"
posted by sagc at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:49 PM on November 3, 2023 [24 favorites]
Senior Hamas leaders can go inside the hospital during non-war time — they can’t setup a command post though. The hospitals also have guards who are armed — Gaza is not free of crime and drug users. So it wouldn’t shock me if reporters saw armed men in 2014 and they could have been militants, guards, or police.
If there is a tunnel complex / bunker under Al Shiffa Israel or other hospitals then Israel is going to have to find another way to deal with it than bombing. They are also going to need to provide substantially more evidence.
posted by interogative mood at 8:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
If there is a tunnel complex / bunker under Al Shiffa Israel or other hospitals then Israel is going to have to find another way to deal with it than bombing. They are also going to need to provide substantially more evidence.
posted by interogative mood at 8:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [6 favorites]
just some random doctor
"Just some random doctor" who has spent decades working in Gaza and has been able to freely walk around photographing and filming in the hospital wherever he wanted without any restrictions. "Just some random doctor" who takes his responsibilities under IHL seriously and would not work in a military command center.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
"Just some random doctor" who has spent decades working in Gaza and has been able to freely walk around photographing and filming in the hospital wherever he wanted without any restrictions. "Just some random doctor" who takes his responsibilities under IHL seriously and would not work in a military command center.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:08 PM on November 3, 2023 [14 favorites]
Bombing or attacking medical facilities or vehicles demands higher than average evidence.
On preview: removed a bunch of my own sadness spewed into words. instead here are some links instead of me adding to the convo about whether bombing a hospital is justified:
Ta-Nehisi Coates interview (has a transcript). It’s very thoughtful.
Adam Serwer on Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
(apologies if either are repeats. I don’t recall seeing them but don’t open every link. also I imagine other folks miss them in the back and forth. I imagine many of us should be doing more reading than talking.)
posted by R343L at 9:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
On preview: removed a bunch of my own sadness spewed into words. instead here are some links instead of me adding to the convo about whether bombing a hospital is justified:
Ta-Nehisi Coates interview (has a transcript). It’s very thoughtful.
Adam Serwer on Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism
(apologies if either are repeats. I don’t recall seeing them but don’t open every link. also I imagine other folks miss them in the back and forth. I imagine many of us should be doing more reading than talking.)
posted by R343L at 9:22 PM on November 3, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know why anyone would spend time evaluating the legal case for bombing the hospital.
Israel's evidence for there being a Hamas command post under the hospital was a cheap CGI video that was so bad that it was comparable to the universally mocked "Bin Laden Mountain Fortress" graphic that attempted to justify the US invasion of Afghanistan.
The Israeli government aren't making a serious case for bombing the hospital because they don't respect international law and don't think that they'll ever be held to account for the crimes against humanity that they are committing right now.
posted by zymil at 9:40 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
Israel's evidence for there being a Hamas command post under the hospital was a cheap CGI video that was so bad that it was comparable to the universally mocked "Bin Laden Mountain Fortress" graphic that attempted to justify the US invasion of Afghanistan.
The Israeli government aren't making a serious case for bombing the hospital because they don't respect international law and don't think that they'll ever be held to account for the crimes against humanity that they are committing right now.
posted by zymil at 9:40 PM on November 3, 2023 [20 favorites]
New York Times Writer Resigns After Signing Letter Protesting the Israel-Gaza War
posted by Artw at 10:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:44 PM on November 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Nathan J. Robinson: What Every American Should Know About Gaza (Current Affairs):
As Americans, we have a responsibility to try to change our government’s actions. We cannot look away from the suffering of the people of Gaza, because we are in part responsible for it. Our government has thwarted peace in Palestine for many decades by supporting Israel’s continuing project of dispossessing Palestinians. Our government continues to aid Israel even as virtually the entire international community recoils in horror at the effects of Israel’s bombing campaign. Our job, right now, is to push for a complete cessation of hostilities and an internationally-brokered settlement to the conflict.posted by kmt at 11:53 PM on November 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
That was a thorough, long and well written, kmt. He has a certain point of view, but that's his job to argue it as a columnist.
I do think the conclusion that the "US being responsible" / "Our Obligations" is missing the forest for the trees. I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years, and that things would be much worse if the US were pull out of the region, or if they were to make demands that Israel found unacceptable and led to Israel simply cutting ties with them. The US spends $4 billion per year in aid to Israel and arguably it's the best bang for buck in terms of geopolitical leverage in any region you can buy. I'll point to several examples -
1973, Israel could have sacked Cairo (they had 3 armored divisions within striking distance and no opposition between them). Israel could have annihilated at least half of Egypt's army as well after trapping them on the wrong side of the Suez. The US alone was able to sternly tell Israel, no, you don't get to do that, because We Have Longer Term Plans for the region that are more important than your need for revenge, we need Egypt intact and whole and we need the Arabs unbloodied and in the mood to write a peace agreement.
In 1982 the US brokered a ceasefire between the PLO and Israel and created the Multinational Force in Lebanon, ending the 1982 Lebanon War.
Of the Iron Dome systems in Israel, only the first two in 2011 were funded by Israel - to protect their critical military installations. The remaining 8 Iron Dome systems at the time, protecting civilians, were actually funded by the US.
The US pursues a geopolitical strategy of preserving stability and status quo in the Middle East. It uses Israel as one of their tools to achieve this, just one among many proxy states. The US would rather spend billions intercepting rockets from Gaza rather than have Israel retaliate with bombs, because if the optics of dead children becomes too bad, the US will be forced to sever and disclaim their ties with Israel, thus losing one of their strongest tools in the Middle East. If Israel were taking heavy casualties from every Hamas rocket, they would have levelled Gaza 10 years ago. Were those billions well spent? I'd be hard pressed to disagree.
I'm certain that if Israel were to be isolated as a state and abandoned by the US, this would lead to something like the Yemeni civil war (377,000 dead) or Tigray war (up to 600,000 dead) or the conflicts in Sudan (400,000 dead) or Nigeria (350,000 dead) - all cases where it simply becomes, Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys, we stay out of it, after the events in Somalia drove an extreme reluctance to risk American soldier's lives to settle wars in other countries not directly related to US interests.
Yes, the US can pressure Israel to limit the scope of its military operations, but the US can't apply leverage it simply doesn't have. The US could halt all military aid tomorrow and then Israel would simply triple the pace of the attack, now free from US pressure. You might as well have the US send strongly worded letters at Russia asking it to stop invading Ukraine. And then what, give some HIMARS and ATACMs to Hamas like how it opposes Russia? It looks like the US has already stretched its leverage to the maximum extent possible.
The US has already applied direct pressure to force Israel to reopen the water pipes and restore the internet. These crucial wins would not have been possible if the US was directly antagonistic towards Israel. I think the best path forward is already the narrow one the US is threading - using what limited leverage it has to get whatever wins it can get.
posted by xdvesper at 2:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do think the conclusion that the "US being responsible" / "Our Obligations" is missing the forest for the trees. I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years, and that things would be much worse if the US were pull out of the region, or if they were to make demands that Israel found unacceptable and led to Israel simply cutting ties with them. The US spends $4 billion per year in aid to Israel and arguably it's the best bang for buck in terms of geopolitical leverage in any region you can buy. I'll point to several examples -
1973, Israel could have sacked Cairo (they had 3 armored divisions within striking distance and no opposition between them). Israel could have annihilated at least half of Egypt's army as well after trapping them on the wrong side of the Suez. The US alone was able to sternly tell Israel, no, you don't get to do that, because We Have Longer Term Plans for the region that are more important than your need for revenge, we need Egypt intact and whole and we need the Arabs unbloodied and in the mood to write a peace agreement.
In 1982 the US brokered a ceasefire between the PLO and Israel and created the Multinational Force in Lebanon, ending the 1982 Lebanon War.
Of the Iron Dome systems in Israel, only the first two in 2011 were funded by Israel - to protect their critical military installations. The remaining 8 Iron Dome systems at the time, protecting civilians, were actually funded by the US.
The US pursues a geopolitical strategy of preserving stability and status quo in the Middle East. It uses Israel as one of their tools to achieve this, just one among many proxy states. The US would rather spend billions intercepting rockets from Gaza rather than have Israel retaliate with bombs, because if the optics of dead children becomes too bad, the US will be forced to sever and disclaim their ties with Israel, thus losing one of their strongest tools in the Middle East. If Israel were taking heavy casualties from every Hamas rocket, they would have levelled Gaza 10 years ago. Were those billions well spent? I'd be hard pressed to disagree.
I'm certain that if Israel were to be isolated as a state and abandoned by the US, this would lead to something like the Yemeni civil war (377,000 dead) or Tigray war (up to 600,000 dead) or the conflicts in Sudan (400,000 dead) or Nigeria (350,000 dead) - all cases where it simply becomes, Not My Circus, Not My Monkeys, we stay out of it, after the events in Somalia drove an extreme reluctance to risk American soldier's lives to settle wars in other countries not directly related to US interests.
Yes, the US can pressure Israel to limit the scope of its military operations, but the US can't apply leverage it simply doesn't have. The US could halt all military aid tomorrow and then Israel would simply triple the pace of the attack, now free from US pressure. You might as well have the US send strongly worded letters at Russia asking it to stop invading Ukraine. And then what, give some HIMARS and ATACMs to Hamas like how it opposes Russia? It looks like the US has already stretched its leverage to the maximum extent possible.
The US has already applied direct pressure to force Israel to reopen the water pipes and restore the internet. These crucial wins would not have been possible if the US was directly antagonistic towards Israel. I think the best path forward is already the narrow one the US is threading - using what limited leverage it has to get whatever wins it can get.
posted by xdvesper at 2:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I do agree with the counterbalance role the US is playing, AND that's why the civilian pressure is playing such a critical role right now because the US needs that evidence to show their stakes too. I'd rather Biden be hit with a reputation blowback if this can be parlayed strategically - but I'm not saying this to excuse or to reassure people to wait and see because I don't know any more than any one (because it remains to be seen if strategic commitment will for once trumps public demonstrations). Regardless the historical evidence of what comes after - Somalia, Syria, Afghanistan - arguably the fact we're talking about still functioning nation-states 'left behind' might be a crucial difference here, e.g. Vietnam. But those are just my layperson's conclusions.
posted by cendawanita at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 3:58 AM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
New York Times Writer Resigns After Signing Letter Protesting the Israel-Gaza War
archive.org link
This is the petition J. Hughes signed (and resigned for): WritersAgainstTheWarOnGaza.
posted by progosk at 4:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
archive.org link
This is the petition J. Hughes signed (and resigned for): WritersAgainstTheWarOnGaza.
posted by progosk at 4:53 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Excellent interview / profile of David Meidan Israel’s most seasoned hostage negotiator in the Economist.
What a catastrophic, shameful — and entirely foreseeable — act of national self-harm Meidan and Netanyahu's 2011 deal has proved. His deal freed Yayha Sinwar, who went on to plan the October 7 attacks. 1,026 further convicted prisoners were freed. 280 were murderers, including child-killers. Dozens went straight back to planning terror attacks. Hamas boasted that, by taking one Israeli hostage, it had secured the release of the killers of 569 Israeli civilians.
Reward hostage-taking, get more hostage-taking. "Once you have paid him the Dane-geld / You never get rid of the Dane"
posted by Klipspringer at 4:55 AM on November 4, 2023
What a catastrophic, shameful — and entirely foreseeable — act of national self-harm Meidan and Netanyahu's 2011 deal has proved. His deal freed Yayha Sinwar, who went on to plan the October 7 attacks. 1,026 further convicted prisoners were freed. 280 were murderers, including child-killers. Dozens went straight back to planning terror attacks. Hamas boasted that, by taking one Israeli hostage, it had secured the release of the killers of 569 Israeli civilians.
Reward hostage-taking, get more hostage-taking. "Once you have paid him the Dane-geld / You never get rid of the Dane"
posted by Klipspringer at 4:55 AM on November 4, 2023
I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends, actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood, hezbollah and yes hamas. our devastation of iraq directly caused the syrian civil war and made the iranians far more powerful than they would have been before. im only mentioning the things here that i can think of off the top of my head. we broke the middle eastern world with blunder after blunder and just about every bit of instability there is because we bombed the foundations to hell.
posted by dis_integration at 5:39 AM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends, actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood, hezbollah and yes hamas. our devastation of iraq directly caused the syrian civil war and made the iranians far more powerful than they would have been before. im only mentioning the things here that i can think of off the top of my head. we broke the middle eastern world with blunder after blunder and just about every bit of instability there is because we bombed the foundations to hell.
posted by dis_integration at 5:39 AM on November 4, 2023 [23 favorites]
Yeah, the US repeatedly invades the Middle East and surrounding areas unprovoked and just generally does what they’ve done in Central America and Asia. I think the US is a less harmful actor than say Iran, but I question why the US has any bases in that region at all, and why we send arms to anyone. It’s not our business. We already have the UN and various coalitions if a joint resolution is needed to deescalate a war or stop a genocide.
The examples of positive outcomes listed above are real, but I don’t think I agree that they demonstrate some sort of benevolent overall intent. Not only that, but I don’t buy that constant escalation of problems with guns and belligerence is the way to perform statecraft. It’s what we do because we have testosterone- and “honor” driven decision making, and because we have an outsize view of our own importance. Israel , the US, and some of the Muslim actors all have the false idea that their people, religion, or nation have some sort of glorious destiny they must fulfill.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The examples of positive outcomes listed above are real, but I don’t think I agree that they demonstrate some sort of benevolent overall intent. Not only that, but I don’t buy that constant escalation of problems with guns and belligerence is the way to perform statecraft. It’s what we do because we have testosterone- and “honor” driven decision making, and because we have an outsize view of our own importance. Israel , the US, and some of the Muslim actors all have the false idea that their people, religion, or nation have some sort of glorious destiny they must fulfill.
posted by caviar2d2 at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
xdvesper I think most of the people objecting to the bombing of a hospital, and the bombing of ambulances fleeing the hospital, don't particularly care if there actually were Hamas leaders there or not.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
No, I don't care if bombing this hospital is allowed under the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong.
No, I don't care if Israel really, really, super duper, thinks there's totally Hamas people there. It's still wrong.
And that's got nothing to do with the broader question of whether the IDF should be in Gaza or not, or whether I think anything else at all Israel is doing now or has ever done is justified.
I don't care if Adolph Hitler himself is there. It's still wrong.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
We're back, yet again, at that core of all moral questions: are you going to do what is easy, or what is right?
Evil is easy. Evil feels good. Evil is a rush of hot power that wipes away all those pesky moral questions and makes you feel strong and invincible.
Good sucks. Good means doing things the difficult and expensive way. Good means feeling bad. Good means not getting to prove how super cool and powerful your latest weapon is. Good makes you feel weak and doubt your own convictions and beliefs.
And the fact that doing things right, doing good, means things cost more is, IMO, one of the principle benefits of good. When it costs more you have to ask if the objective is really worth the high price and effort it takes to do good, while the evil action makes the objective cheap and easy.
If Israel had really been committed to doing what is right, Israel would have needed to evaluate the question of whether or not attacking and possibly killing/capturing the Hamas elements they believed were in the hospital would have been worth the cost, the effort, the sacrifice, the maddening difficulty and frustrating delay, it would have taken to send in a big enough group of special forces types to go in and kill/capture the Hamas elements without blowing up the hospital or any ambulances. It would have required accepting the possibility of failure because of the inherent difficulty and delay.
Because good sucks.
We saw the same thing with the US and its decision to have the CIA murder US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki. The US chose the evil, easy, cheap, chest pounding, cool looking, show off their new tech, strut around and feel badass, approach. And they did it because the other way would have been difficult, expensive, and risky. But the other way was the only good way, and the way America did it was evil.
Good sucks. Evil is easy and it doesn't matter if that evil is legal or not, it's still evil.
But bombing hospitals is still, and always, wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
No, I don't care if bombing this hospital is allowed under the Geneva Conventions. It's still wrong.
No, I don't care if Israel really, really, super duper, thinks there's totally Hamas people there. It's still wrong.
And that's got nothing to do with the broader question of whether the IDF should be in Gaza or not, or whether I think anything else at all Israel is doing now or has ever done is justified.
I don't care if Adolph Hitler himself is there. It's still wrong.
Bombing hospitals is wrong. The end.
We're back, yet again, at that core of all moral questions: are you going to do what is easy, or what is right?
Evil is easy. Evil feels good. Evil is a rush of hot power that wipes away all those pesky moral questions and makes you feel strong and invincible.
Good sucks. Good means doing things the difficult and expensive way. Good means feeling bad. Good means not getting to prove how super cool and powerful your latest weapon is. Good makes you feel weak and doubt your own convictions and beliefs.
And the fact that doing things right, doing good, means things cost more is, IMO, one of the principle benefits of good. When it costs more you have to ask if the objective is really worth the high price and effort it takes to do good, while the evil action makes the objective cheap and easy.
If Israel had really been committed to doing what is right, Israel would have needed to evaluate the question of whether or not attacking and possibly killing/capturing the Hamas elements they believed were in the hospital would have been worth the cost, the effort, the sacrifice, the maddening difficulty and frustrating delay, it would have taken to send in a big enough group of special forces types to go in and kill/capture the Hamas elements without blowing up the hospital or any ambulances. It would have required accepting the possibility of failure because of the inherent difficulty and delay.
Because good sucks.
We saw the same thing with the US and its decision to have the CIA murder US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki. The US chose the evil, easy, cheap, chest pounding, cool looking, show off their new tech, strut around and feel badass, approach. And they did it because the other way would have been difficult, expensive, and risky. But the other way was the only good way, and the way America did it was evil.
Good sucks. Evil is easy and it doesn't matter if that evil is legal or not, it's still evil.
But bombing hospitals is still, and always, wrong.
posted by sotonohito at 5:54 AM on November 4, 2023 [30 favorites]
Hit-and-run injures [Stanford University] Arab Muslim student, incident under investigation as hate crime
The victim, who was a pedestrian, is now receiving care for non-life threatening injuries, according to a Friday email from President Richard Saller and Provost Jenny Martinez. According to the report, the driver “made eye contact with the victim, accelerated and struck the victim, and then drove away while shouting ‘f*** you people.'”posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:11 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israeli Strike on UNRWA School Kills 20, Including Children (also covered in WaPo; paywalled)
At least 20 people were killed and 70 were injured in an Israeli strike on the UN-run al-Fakhoura school in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday, 4 November, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said.
Initial reports indicate at least 20 people were killed, including children, and many dozens injured, director of communications at the UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) Juliette Touma told BBC.
“At least one strike hit the schoolyard where there were tents for displaced families. Another strike hit inside the school where women were baking bread,” Touma told Reuters.
At the time of writing, the Israeli army has not issued an official statement.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:21 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
At least 20 people were killed and 70 were injured in an Israeli strike on the UN-run al-Fakhoura school in the Jabalia refugee camp on Saturday, 4 November, the Palestinian Ministry of Health in Gaza said.
Initial reports indicate at least 20 people were killed, including children, and many dozens injured, director of communications at the UN agency for Palestine refugees (UNRWA) Juliette Touma told BBC.
“At least one strike hit the schoolyard where there were tents for displaced families. Another strike hit inside the school where women were baking bread,” Touma told Reuters.
At the time of writing, the Israeli army has not issued an official statement.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:21 AM on November 4, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'd argue the US has been the sole stabilizing force in Israel / Palestine and their immediate neighbours for the past 50 years
No question the US has had massive influence in the middle east. But there's a difference between stabilizing and suppression. Insofar as Iron Dome helped freeze the lopsided status quo, yet didn't prevent Oct 7... in the final analysis, it's a fail, no?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:31 AM on November 4, 2023
No question the US has had massive influence in the middle east. But there's a difference between stabilizing and suppression. Insofar as Iron Dome helped freeze the lopsided status quo, yet didn't prevent Oct 7... in the final analysis, it's a fail, no?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:31 AM on November 4, 2023
Statements like "never negotiate with hostage takers/ terrorists" sound tough but don't work in the real world with real people and their lives are on the line. If you won't negotiate for one hostage, then the kidnappers will often take more hostages. If you want to resolve these kinds of kidnapping actions you have to address the root cause. It is part of the larger, unresolved conflict. Until you resolve that kidnaping and other violence will continue.
posted by interogative mood at 10:05 AM on November 4, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 10:05 AM on November 4, 2023
Huge demonstration in Paris*
Tokyo
Glasgow
"Central London has been blocked by protestors for half an hour now and this is just one of dozens of protests happening just in London."
Charing Cross station has also been shut down
etc.
*relevant context for Paris, from Radio France
posted by mediareport at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tokyo
Glasgow
"Central London has been blocked by protestors for half an hour now and this is just one of dozens of protests happening just in London."
Charing Cross station has also been shut down
etc.
*relevant context for Paris, from Radio France
posted by mediareport at 10:30 AM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
BreakThrough News (YouTube): Free Palestine! National March on Washington Live Coverage
posted by cashman at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cashman at 10:40 AM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I would recommend Ezra Klein's interview with Amaney Jamal. [archive link]
Thanks, kensington314; that is great - full of insight and nuance from Jamal, who's Dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs and one of the leaders of the Arab Barometer Project, whose polling has been discussed above and in the other recent P/I thread. Their most recent poll was actually wrapping up on October 6th. The transcript is worth a read; it has lots of good back and forth with Klein questioning her, with interesting bits like this:
AMANEY JAMAL: So and we have evidence of that a little bit, Ezra, in this poll, which is that the poor folks, the really disadvantaged people in Gaza, were most critical of Hamas. So it does lead us to believe that there is this middle class group of individuals that benefits from close ties with Hamas, and they are invested in seeing that government stay in power. But we see that across the Arab world as well. Ironically, the middle class, which is often sort of seen as the champion of democratization or democratic movements, what we find is that this aspiring class of citizens who believe that, OK, there’s some aura of economic stability. Therefore, I am not going to rock the boat.
So, on the surface, they’re not staunch supporters of authoritarianism or for Hamas or for terrorism. They just find it very beneficial to support a status quo government that is OK for their economic livelihood. These are the people who sort of will turn a blind eye to the excesses of these regimes, as long as their economic conditions are met. It’s really the poor, disadvantaged citizens across these societies that end up having to bear the brunt of public mismanagement and of a government that is not representing their interests.
At the end she recommends 3 books.
posted by mediareport at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thanks, kensington314; that is great - full of insight and nuance from Jamal, who's Dean of the Princeton School of Public and International Affairs and one of the leaders of the Arab Barometer Project, whose polling has been discussed above and in the other recent P/I thread. Their most recent poll was actually wrapping up on October 6th. The transcript is worth a read; it has lots of good back and forth with Klein questioning her, with interesting bits like this:
AMANEY JAMAL: So and we have evidence of that a little bit, Ezra, in this poll, which is that the poor folks, the really disadvantaged people in Gaza, were most critical of Hamas. So it does lead us to believe that there is this middle class group of individuals that benefits from close ties with Hamas, and they are invested in seeing that government stay in power. But we see that across the Arab world as well. Ironically, the middle class, which is often sort of seen as the champion of democratization or democratic movements, what we find is that this aspiring class of citizens who believe that, OK, there’s some aura of economic stability. Therefore, I am not going to rock the boat.
So, on the surface, they’re not staunch supporters of authoritarianism or for Hamas or for terrorism. They just find it very beneficial to support a status quo government that is OK for their economic livelihood. These are the people who sort of will turn a blind eye to the excesses of these regimes, as long as their economic conditions are met. It’s really the poor, disadvantaged citizens across these societies that end up having to bear the brunt of public mismanagement and of a government that is not representing their interests.
At the end she recommends 3 books.
posted by mediareport at 10:49 AM on November 4, 2023 [8 favorites]
A short summary of the specific stricture that Germany finds itself in, regarding discussions of the horrific current events in Israel and Gaza: J. Kampfner, Germany’s bond with Israel has been admirable – but it is becoming a straitjacket.
The article references an odd singling out of the local branch of the Fridays For Future movement who, after the bizarre interlude about an octopus plushie in a social media post of solidarity with Palestinians by Greta Thunberg, the principal German media baron (M. Döpfer of Springer Verlag) called out the movement for a further post authored by the FFF MostAffectedPeopleandAreas branch. This caused the German FFF branch to post a separate, and dissenting position, something which was then picked up and lauded in an unusual public video issued by the Vice-Chancellor Habeck (of the Greens Party), in which he admonished against slippery-slope arguments that would question or "relativize" German support of Israel, cited as a German "Staatsräson"...
posted by progosk at 11:22 AM on November 4, 2023
The article references an odd singling out of the local branch of the Fridays For Future movement who, after the bizarre interlude about an octopus plushie in a social media post of solidarity with Palestinians by Greta Thunberg, the principal German media baron (M. Döpfer of Springer Verlag) called out the movement for a further post authored by the FFF MostAffectedPeopleandAreas branch. This caused the German FFF branch to post a separate, and dissenting position, something which was then picked up and lauded in an unusual public video issued by the Vice-Chancellor Habeck (of the Greens Party), in which he admonished against slippery-slope arguments that would question or "relativize" German support of Israel, cited as a German "Staatsräson"...
posted by progosk at 11:22 AM on November 4, 2023
Here is more on the recommended books from the Klein/Jamal interview:
The One State Reality [in the form of a Foreign Affairs precis by the authors]
Arabs and Israelis: Conflict and peacemaking in the Middle East (Amazon)
A History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (Amazon, here's JSTOR)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2023
The One State Reality [in the form of a Foreign Affairs precis by the authors]
Arabs and Israelis: Conflict and peacemaking in the Middle East (Amazon)
A History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict (Amazon, here's JSTOR)
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:30 AM on November 4, 2023
Meanwhile the ex-director general of Israel's ministry of strategic affairs is calling for ethnic cleansing of Gaza via mass population transfer.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:59 AM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
This does seem to be the beginning of a sea change in how the west approaches this conflict. Netanyahu has managed to take the outpouring of goodwill following October 7th and through the brutality of the response completely obliterate it. It’s frustrating to watch,
posted by interogative mood at 12:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 12:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [9 favorites]
"actions that led directly to the rise in power and esteem of far right islamic fundamentalist paramilitaries like al qaeda, isis, muslim brotherhood"
Muslim brotherhood was founded in 1928 pray tell what did Calvin Coolidge do to Egypt in order to form this vanguard movement.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Muslim brotherhood was founded in 1928 pray tell what did Calvin Coolidge do to Egypt in order to form this vanguard movement.
posted by clavdivs at 2:00 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean I don't know the history very well but I believe the Muslim Brotherhood was at least partly a reaction to the British Empire, which is at least coterminous if not identical with the modern American influence in the region. Can't blame it on Coolidge but that's only because the US hadn't inherited the British Empire's global reach yet.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pack with the Nazis.
'The Secretary of State to the Chargé in Great Britain (Atherton)
Washington, June 9, 1928.'
Text is about the Kellogg-Briand pact.
A pact that, believe it or not, was trying to outlaw War.
Secretary Atherton:"I replied that the trouble about that was if each country began tacking on to this treaty [Page 81]understandings which would be in the form of reservations or provisos or stipulations as to what it means, each country might have a different construction and different reservations and provisos and that in the end there might be so many that the treaty would be a joke." (ibid)
"Whereas it is provided in the Act of Congress approved May 26, 1924, entitled “An Act to limit the immigration of aliens into the United States, and for other purposes” that –
1. (a) Persons born in the portions of Persia, Russia, or the Arabian peninsula situated within the Barred Zone, and who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quotas of these countries; and (b) persons born in the colonies, dependencies, or protectorates, or portions thereof, within the Barred Zone, of France, Great Britain, the Netherlands, or Portugal, who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quota of the country to which such colony or dependency belongs or by which it is administered as a protectorate.'
so, what, forget the facts and hang on coterminous naval gazing down the chronological road of simulacrum?
posted by clavdivs at 3:35 PM on November 4, 2023
'The Secretary of State to the Chargé in Great Britain (Atherton)
Washington, June 9, 1928.'
Text is about the Kellogg-Briand pact.
A pact that, believe it or not, was trying to outlaw War.
Secretary Atherton:"I replied that the trouble about that was if each country began tacking on to this treaty [Page 81]understandings which would be in the form of reservations or provisos or stipulations as to what it means, each country might have a different construction and different reservations and provisos and that in the end there might be so many that the treaty would be a joke." (ibid)
"Whereas it is provided in the Act of Congress approved May 26, 1924, entitled “An Act to limit the immigration of aliens into the United States, and for other purposes” that –
1. (a) Persons born in the portions of Persia, Russia, or the Arabian peninsula situated within the Barred Zone, and who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quotas of these countries; and (b) persons born in the colonies, dependencies, or protectorates, or portions thereof, within the Barred Zone, of France, Great Britain, the Netherlands, or Portugal, who are admissible under the immigration laws of the United States as quota immigrants, will be charged to the quota of the country to which such colony or dependency belongs or by which it is administered as a protectorate.'
so, what, forget the facts and hang on coterminous naval gazing down the chronological road of simulacrum?
posted by clavdivs at 3:35 PM on November 4, 2023
I mean I don't know the history very well but I believe the Muslim Brotherhood was at least partly a reaction to the British Empire
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pact with the Nazis
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's? The French? Sweden? If you see the British Empire as an enemy then an alliance with their enemies is an alliance of convenience; not much different than the USA and Britain allying with Stalin.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
oh I see that's why the brothers tried to make a pact with the Nazis
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's? The French? Sweden? If you see the British Empire as an enemy then an alliance with their enemies is an alliance of convenience; not much different than the USA and Britain allying with Stalin.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:51 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
this is impossible to take seriously. we supported the taliban and we destroyed iraq and set the arab world on fire, supported the coup in iran, supported the coup in libya, really the list never ends
Believe it or not, this is actually what preserving stability looks like. If the US can get you play nice with your neighbours (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan) they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice - like Iraq conquering Kuwait with the 4th largest army in the world, and with Saudi Arabia next in line, then they will fuck you up to the point you aren't a regional power anymore, permanently, because the alternative is even more destabilizing, a warlord rampaging though the region.
At least one reason for the Iran coup
was that Mossaddeq was moving towards the left, and also coming under pressure from the Tudeq communist party. It wasn't a choice between remaining a democracy or turning into an American puppet, there were genuine fears they would join the communists, with outcomes that really aren't great for anyone inside or outside the country.
In Libya, they were certainly a destabilizing force - 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing, 1988 Lockerbie bombing. The Gulf of Sidra incidents where they tried to claim it as their teritorial waters with a "line of death" - part of the global status quo the US is enforcing freedom of navigation in international waters to ensure international trade remains open, they do the same thing off the coast of China.
I'm not saying the US is doing this for any benevolent reason. It's all self interest - much of the wealth of the US and Europe depends on stability and international trade. Far better for Iraq to be permanently crippled than for it to conquer Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, and who knows what else along the way. The counter examples are regions which the US does not see as important to stabilize - Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, versus the countries which the US have explicitly chosen to help stabilize like Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.
Like imagine a counter factual where the US does not intervene when Iraq invades Kuwait, or worse, chooses to support Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, both options would leave the region in a much worse state.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Believe it or not, this is actually what preserving stability looks like. If the US can get you play nice with your neighbours (Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan) they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice - like Iraq conquering Kuwait with the 4th largest army in the world, and with Saudi Arabia next in line, then they will fuck you up to the point you aren't a regional power anymore, permanently, because the alternative is even more destabilizing, a warlord rampaging though the region.
At least one reason for the Iran coup
was that Mossaddeq was moving towards the left, and also coming under pressure from the Tudeq communist party. It wasn't a choice between remaining a democracy or turning into an American puppet, there were genuine fears they would join the communists, with outcomes that really aren't great for anyone inside or outside the country.
In Libya, they were certainly a destabilizing force - 1986 Berlin discotheque bombing, 1988 Lockerbie bombing. The Gulf of Sidra incidents where they tried to claim it as their teritorial waters with a "line of death" - part of the global status quo the US is enforcing freedom of navigation in international waters to ensure international trade remains open, they do the same thing off the coast of China.
I'm not saying the US is doing this for any benevolent reason. It's all self interest - much of the wealth of the US and Europe depends on stability and international trade. Far better for Iraq to be permanently crippled than for it to conquer Kuwait, then Saudi Arabia, and who knows what else along the way. The counter examples are regions which the US does not see as important to stabilize - Nigeria, Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, versus the countries which the US have explicitly chosen to help stabilize like Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia.
Like imagine a counter factual where the US does not intervene when Iraq invades Kuwait, or worse, chooses to support Iraq instead of Saudi Arabia, both options would leave the region in a much worse state.
posted by xdvesper at 3:59 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940'
The Germans.
"Except for the disastrous raid on Dieppe, all British battles with Vichy France were fought in the French colonial possessions: Dakar, the Middle East, Madagascar, North Africa."
"In the years preceding World War II the Muslim Brothers grew connections with Nazi Germany, maintained via the Deutsches Nachrichtenbüro in Cairo and the leader of the Palestinian revolt, Amin al-Husseini. Being interested in strengthening a militant anti-British organization, Germany may have funded the Brotherhood as early as 1934."
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 4, 2023
The Germans.
"Except for the disastrous raid on Dieppe, all British battles with Vichy France were fought in the French colonial possessions: Dakar, the Middle East, Madagascar, North Africa."
"In the years preceding World War II the Muslim Brothers grew connections with Nazi Germany, maintained via the Deutsches Nachrichtenbüro in Cairo and the leader of the Palestinian revolt, Amin al-Husseini. Being interested in strengthening a militant anti-British organization, Germany may have funded the Brotherhood as early as 1934."
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 4, 2023
they will broker a peace agreement and send aid. If you don't play nice -
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home. For example: Blinken in Amman. "His talks in Jordan's capital with the officials, angry and deeply suspicious of Israel as it intensifies military operations, came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu snubbed Blinken's blunt warning that Israel risks losing any hope of an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians unless it eases the humanitarian crisis in Gaza."
qua, Nasrallah' tepid threats.
posted by clavdivs at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2023
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home. For example: Blinken in Amman. "His talks in Jordan's capital with the officials, angry and deeply suspicious of Israel as it intensifies military operations, came a day after Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu snubbed Blinken's blunt warning that Israel risks losing any hope of an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians unless it eases the humanitarian crisis in Gaza."
qua, Nasrallah' tepid threats.
posted by clavdivs at 4:35 PM on November 4, 2023
Who were the British fighting in Egypt and North Africa in the early 1940's
I'll take "Iconic Tank Battles" for $200, Alex.
posted by clawsoon at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll take "Iconic Tank Battles" for $200, Alex.
posted by clawsoon at 4:37 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
U.S. Officials Outline Steps to Israel to Reduce Civilian Casualties - The measures include using smaller bombs against Hamas, U.S. officials said.
“Please be less obvious you are making us look bad.”
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
“Please be less obvious you are making us look bad.”
posted by Artw at 4:58 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
This does seem to be the beginning of a sea change in how the west approaches this conflict. Netanyahu has managed to take the outpouring of goodwill following October 7th and through the brutality of the response completely obliterate it. It’s frustrating to watch,
You have to give the guy credit for that accomplishment in such a short timeframe. Look at how long even the imbecilic Bush took before starting to lose world sympathy after 9/11.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:03 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
You have to give the guy credit for that accomplishment in such a short timeframe. Look at how long even the imbecilic Bush took before starting to lose world sympathy after 9/11.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:03 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Germans
1) do you know what a rhetorical question is?
2) did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
1) do you know what a rhetorical question is?
2) did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:36 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even if Hamas was hiding out at schools, it does seem like Israel needs to answer for bombing schoolchildren, no?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:43 PM on November 4, 2023 [6 favorites]
I mean, that shouldn't be a controversial ask, no?
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 5:44 PM on November 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
//Up to 400,000 people remain along Gaza front after Israel rejects ‘pause’
posted by kensington314 at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2023
posted by kensington314 at 6:00 PM on November 4, 2023
Protests in Israel target Netanyahu over release of captives (Al Jazeera)
Thousands of people have taken to the streets in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv over the government’s handling of the crisis.posted by hydropsyche at 6:04 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Police held back hundreds of protesters outside Netanyahu’s residence on Saturday. Waving blue and white Israeli flags, demonstrators chanted “Jail now!” as a crowd pushed through security barriers.
did you bother to read all of what you were replying to, and not just the first sentence?
I did. It's, it's backwatering. It's old, so old the enemy of my enemy... you see the United States doesn't seek friends, we have interests. If friendship is struck along the way then be it all the better. But I get it.
yes, just like how Stalin and Hitler had a pact called Molotov-Ribbentrop. Germany and Russia also had covert training programs allowing Germany to skirt Versailles treaty constraints.
"History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake."
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on November 4, 2023
I did. It's, it's backwatering. It's old, so old the enemy of my enemy... you see the United States doesn't seek friends, we have interests. If friendship is struck along the way then be it all the better. But I get it.
yes, just like how Stalin and Hitler had a pact called Molotov-Ribbentrop. Germany and Russia also had covert training programs allowing Germany to skirt Versailles treaty constraints.
"History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake."
posted by clavdivs at 6:05 PM on November 4, 2023
and I'm yelling and being snide. I'm really pissed at the Israeli goverment and it's leaking over.
I personally cannot use the whole of History to somehow hash this out so I've decided to use the chronology starting from October 7th forward. This does not mean that history does not leak into that pivot point in chronology but this is the only way I can sanely gauge what's going on from afar because it's not really so much afar anymore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I personally cannot use the whole of History to somehow hash this out so I've decided to use the chronology starting from October 7th forward. This does not mean that history does not leak into that pivot point in chronology but this is the only way I can sanely gauge what's going on from afar because it's not really so much afar anymore.
posted by clavdivs at 6:13 PM on November 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
We could turn those aircraft carriers around and go home.
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers, when it was much weaker and its opponents were much stronger, and with the US deliberately crippling the IDF tactics /strategy. They could see the enemy troop buildup on the border and wanted to perform a pre-emptive strike like in 1967 but the US forbade them by threatening to withold resupply after the war. They would have to win it entirely on their own, being surprise attacked with no support.
The US carriers are there now to moderate the IDF response in Gaza - giving them the time and space to perform a carefully planned bombing campaign and ground assault to "western" standards and minimize civilian loss of life without worrying about Hezbollah attacking their flanks.
If Israel were in a multi front battle for survival with Hezbollah (much stronger than Hamas) attacking from the east without the US carriers in the region to deter them, they would go into full war footing in an existential war for survival like 1973.
Rationally their first move would be to carpet bomb Gaza within the first week of the war to the point they no longer posed a threat, causing anywhere from 10x to 100x the current deaths, secured that border, then focused most of their ground forces on the much larger Hezbollah threat from Lebanon. They'd have a "bomb anything that moves" policy to halt the rockets coming from Gaza and Lebanon. They would then launch a similar war into Lebanon like in 2006 to eradicate Hezbollah where they fired 160,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 and air strikes against them and set the country back 20 years.
If the US had the carrier groups there in 1967 and 1973 with a commitment to protect Israel I'm fairly sure none of those wars would have happened, Israel would never have recaptured Jerusalem and West Bank which would continue existing till today as annexed Jordanian territory and they would all be Jordanian citizens. Gaza, would have continued existing as Egyptian territory with Hamas never having the chance to grow, with them being suppressed along with the Muslim Brotherhood.
posted by xdvesper at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers, when it was much weaker and its opponents were much stronger, and with the US deliberately crippling the IDF tactics /strategy. They could see the enemy troop buildup on the border and wanted to perform a pre-emptive strike like in 1967 but the US forbade them by threatening to withold resupply after the war. They would have to win it entirely on their own, being surprise attacked with no support.
The US carriers are there now to moderate the IDF response in Gaza - giving them the time and space to perform a carefully planned bombing campaign and ground assault to "western" standards and minimize civilian loss of life without worrying about Hezbollah attacking their flanks.
If Israel were in a multi front battle for survival with Hezbollah (much stronger than Hamas) attacking from the east without the US carriers in the region to deter them, they would go into full war footing in an existential war for survival like 1973.
Rationally their first move would be to carpet bomb Gaza within the first week of the war to the point they no longer posed a threat, causing anywhere from 10x to 100x the current deaths, secured that border, then focused most of their ground forces on the much larger Hezbollah threat from Lebanon. They'd have a "bomb anything that moves" policy to halt the rockets coming from Gaza and Lebanon. They would then launch a similar war into Lebanon like in 2006 to eradicate Hezbollah where they fired 160,000 artillery shells and launched 11,000 and air strikes against them and set the country back 20 years.
If the US had the carrier groups there in 1967 and 1973 with a commitment to protect Israel I'm fairly sure none of those wars would have happened, Israel would never have recaptured Jerusalem and West Bank which would continue existing till today as annexed Jordanian territory and they would all be Jordanian citizens. Gaza, would have continued existing as Egyptian territory with Hamas never having the chance to grow, with them being suppressed along with the Muslim Brotherhood.
posted by xdvesper at 6:43 PM on November 4, 2023
Today is the 28th anniversary of the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin on November 4, 1995 by a right-wing fundamentalist Jewish extremist who hoped to derail the Oslo talks, which were moving a Palestinian state a few steps closer to reality. Here's a flashback to that time folks might find directly relevant now:
Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."
Today, that young man...is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.
That would be racist shithead Itamar Ben Gvir, of course. There's a screengrab of Ben Gvir holding Rabin's hood ornament at the link. He also, until 2019, kept a picture on his wall of the man who opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians worshiping in a mosque in 1994, slaughtering 29, including children, and wounding 125 more, in another attempt to sabotage the Oslo accords. I'm sure he's still Ben Gvir's hero.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu also has Rabin's blood on his hands, still, 28 years later, as noted above:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
Finally, there's also this bit from the CBC page:
Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords. Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.
Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.
Sigh. The violent fuckers always want, and benefit from, more violence.
A moment for Yitzhak.
posted by mediareport at 6:45 PM on November 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
Just two weeks before Rabin's assassination, a young settler extremist posed for the cameras with a Cadillac hood ornament he said he had stolen from Rabin's car. "Just like we got to this emblem," he said, "we could get to Rabin."
Today, that young man...is 45 years old and has eight Israeli criminal convictions — including convictions for supporting a terrorist organization and incitement to racism. Once he was rejected by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) for his extremist views. Now, Israel's police must answer to him as Benjamin Netanyahu's minister of national security.
That would be racist shithead Itamar Ben Gvir, of course. There's a screengrab of Ben Gvir holding Rabin's hood ornament at the link. He also, until 2019, kept a picture on his wall of the man who opened fire on a crowd of Palestinians worshiping in a mosque in 1994, slaughtering 29, including children, and wounding 125 more, in another attempt to sabotage the Oslo accords. I'm sure he's still Ben Gvir's hero.
Meanwhile, Netanyahu also has Rabin's blood on his hands, still, 28 years later, as noted above:
In July 1995, Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.
Finally, there's also this bit from the CBC page:
Netanyahu first came to power in the 1996 election that followed the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin by an Israeli extremist opposed to the Oslo Accords. Early polls showed Rabin's successor Shimon Peres comfortably ahead.
Determined to sabotage Oslo, Hamas embarked on a ruthless suicide bombing campaign that helped Netanyahu pull ahead of Peres and win the election on May 29, 1996.
Sigh. The violent fuckers always want, and benefit from, more violence.
A moment for Yitzhak.
posted by mediareport at 6:45 PM on November 4, 2023 [36 favorites]
Philip Lewis: "A stunning timelapse video of thousands who rallied in Washington, DC for the ‘Free Palestine’ march"
posted by cashman at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cashman at 7:34 PM on November 4, 2023 [4 favorites]
Slavoj Z👃zek interviewed on the situation. More coherent and insightful his typical spiel.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just came back to post that, cashman; it gets really good at the 33-second mark. Here's a Nitter mirror for folks who don't want to visit Twitter.
posted by mediareport at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 7:47 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel won a multi front war in 1973 without the help of US carriers
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
As it was the war ended in a stalemate in the Sinai, not exactly overwhelming victory.
posted by interogative mood at 10:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
As it was the war ended in a stalemate in the Sinai, not exactly overwhelming victory.
posted by interogative mood at 10:06 PM on November 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
The turning point of the Yom Kippur war was operation Nickel Grass where: The U.S. Air Force shipped 22,395 tons of tanks, artillery, ammunition, and supplies to Israel aboard C-141 Starlifters and C-5 Galaxies
That isn't the historical consensus, I believe. The US might say it, and maybe if you squint and take the very long view of winning the next war, perhaps.
Just look at the timeline on the wiki page.
Golan Heights
6 Oct - Syrian tanks cross the border and begin their advance towards Haifa (pincer north of Sea of Galilee) and the Jordan Valley (pincer south of Sea of Galilee). But they don't even make it out of Golan Heights.
10 Oct - Israeli forces crush the Syrians and push them back to the purple line border. This is considered the turning point in the Golan front.
11 Oct to 14 Oct - Israeli forces push into Syria, get within 30km of Damascus (the capital), and start shelling the outskirts. They attacked power plants, fuel storage, bridges and main roads, crippling Syria's ability to continue the war.
Sinai Front
6 Oct - Egyptian tanks cross the Suez
8 Oct - Adan's divisions counter-attacks the Egyptians but it fails and more ground is lost
9 Oct to 13 Oct - Further Egyptian advance is halted and the front is stabilized
14 Oct - Battle of the Sinai - Egyptians launch an attack with 800-1000 tanks beyond the protective umbrella of their SAMs for the first time, and were heavily defeated. They lose 250 tanks (while the IDF loses just 6). This is considered the turning point in the Sinai front.
At this point, the Syrians were "out" of the war and Israel could redeploy their forces to the Sinai in a daring counter-attack past the Suez that would ultimately cut off the Egyptian Third Army from food and water.
18th Oct - Egypt's Commander and Chief and War Minister recommends pushing for a ceasefire as Egypt's military position was untenable.
---
The first C-5A transport airplane from Nickel Grass arrived at Lod airport at 18:30 local time on 14 October, after these events had concluded. As per the link, only 8,755 out of 22,395 tonnes arrived before the war ended on 25th Oct. Abraham Rabinovich, in the definitive book "The Yom Kippur War" (2004) - drawn from extensive interviews and primary source material, and an excellent book by the way - says that only a very small part of material reaching Israel was actually used in the war, and the impact was mostly psychological. And besides, the Soviets themselves began airlifts of material to their proxies on the 10th October, so the US efforts merely counterbalanced the Soviets.
Militarily, the war ended with a total victory for the Israelis, not a stalemate. Egypt was already looking for a ceasefire as early as the 18th, while Israel was pushing for more territorial and military gains past the 25th.
Cairo could have been captured as Israel had 3 armored brigades within striking distance and there was no Egyptian opposition between them, having all been deployed elsewhere.
Egypt's encircled Third Army could have been destroyed in a single night, according to Adan.
Shazly, the Chief of staff of the Egyptian armed forces, said thus "Once the Third Army was encircled by Israeli troops every bit of bread to be sent to our men was paid for by meeting Israeli demands."
Politically, yes, the war ended in a stalemate, as Israel was prevented from destroying Cairo and destroying Egypt's Third Army by the influence of the US and Soviet Union.
Nowadays, there isn't a counter-balancing force in the form of the Soviet Union who would be able to swoop in and airlift troops and supplies to Israel's enemies.
posted by xdvesper at 2:06 AM on November 5, 2023
That isn't the historical consensus, I believe. The US might say it, and maybe if you squint and take the very long view of winning the next war, perhaps.
Just look at the timeline on the wiki page.
Golan Heights
6 Oct - Syrian tanks cross the border and begin their advance towards Haifa (pincer north of Sea of Galilee) and the Jordan Valley (pincer south of Sea of Galilee). But they don't even make it out of Golan Heights.
10 Oct - Israeli forces crush the Syrians and push them back to the purple line border. This is considered the turning point in the Golan front.
11 Oct to 14 Oct - Israeli forces push into Syria, get within 30km of Damascus (the capital), and start shelling the outskirts. They attacked power plants, fuel storage, bridges and main roads, crippling Syria's ability to continue the war.
Sinai Front
6 Oct - Egyptian tanks cross the Suez
8 Oct - Adan's divisions counter-attacks the Egyptians but it fails and more ground is lost
9 Oct to 13 Oct - Further Egyptian advance is halted and the front is stabilized
14 Oct - Battle of the Sinai - Egyptians launch an attack with 800-1000 tanks beyond the protective umbrella of their SAMs for the first time, and were heavily defeated. They lose 250 tanks (while the IDF loses just 6). This is considered the turning point in the Sinai front.
At this point, the Syrians were "out" of the war and Israel could redeploy their forces to the Sinai in a daring counter-attack past the Suez that would ultimately cut off the Egyptian Third Army from food and water.
18th Oct - Egypt's Commander and Chief and War Minister recommends pushing for a ceasefire as Egypt's military position was untenable.
---
The first C-5A transport airplane from Nickel Grass arrived at Lod airport at 18:30 local time on 14 October, after these events had concluded. As per the link, only 8,755 out of 22,395 tonnes arrived before the war ended on 25th Oct. Abraham Rabinovich, in the definitive book "The Yom Kippur War" (2004) - drawn from extensive interviews and primary source material, and an excellent book by the way - says that only a very small part of material reaching Israel was actually used in the war, and the impact was mostly psychological. And besides, the Soviets themselves began airlifts of material to their proxies on the 10th October, so the US efforts merely counterbalanced the Soviets.
Militarily, the war ended with a total victory for the Israelis, not a stalemate. Egypt was already looking for a ceasefire as early as the 18th, while Israel was pushing for more territorial and military gains past the 25th.
Cairo could have been captured as Israel had 3 armored brigades within striking distance and there was no Egyptian opposition between them, having all been deployed elsewhere.
Egypt's encircled Third Army could have been destroyed in a single night, according to Adan.
Shazly, the Chief of staff of the Egyptian armed forces, said thus "Once the Third Army was encircled by Israeli troops every bit of bread to be sent to our men was paid for by meeting Israeli demands."
Politically, yes, the war ended in a stalemate, as Israel was prevented from destroying Cairo and destroying Egypt's Third Army by the influence of the US and Soviet Union.
Nowadays, there isn't a counter-balancing force in the form of the Soviet Union who would be able to swoop in and airlift troops and supplies to Israel's enemies.
posted by xdvesper at 2:06 AM on November 5, 2023
In fairness, Abraham Rabinovich does say that while airlift material didn't make an immediate difference to the battlefield, it did allow them to expend what they had more freely knowing replacements were arriving. You could argue they wouldn't have crossed the Suez if the airlift commitment wasn't made, but given how hot-headed Ariel Sharon and Adan were, I think they would have done it anyway.
Functionally I would interpret this through a stability lens again: if Israel didn't know if they would have US resupply them after the war, they would have been even more incentivized to finish off Egypt once and for all by destroying Cairo and their Third Army.
The US managed to convince them to hold their fire by replenishing their arms, making them confident that they would be able to repulse a similar attack in the future, so there was no need to utterly destroy Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 2:28 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Functionally I would interpret this through a stability lens again: if Israel didn't know if they would have US resupply them after the war, they would have been even more incentivized to finish off Egypt once and for all by destroying Cairo and their Third Army.
The US managed to convince them to hold their fire by replenishing their arms, making them confident that they would be able to repulse a similar attack in the future, so there was no need to utterly destroy Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 2:28 AM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Cairo had six million people in 1973. (A somewhat poignant number, in context.) it’s seen around the world as a place of immense civilizational importance. Trying to ‘destroy’ or ‘sack’ or ‘raze’ it would have a been a complete disaster. Can we stop with this alternate history circle….game?
The reality that exists is what matters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:06 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
The reality that exists is what matters.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:06 AM on November 5, 2023 [11 favorites]
.
for Rabin and the world that might have been
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on November 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
for Rabin and the world that might have been
posted by hydropsyche at 6:03 AM on November 5, 2023 [15 favorites]
for Rabin and the world that might have been
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:04 AM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
You have a green light to a genocide you dumb bastards. Told a nation led by far-right psychopaths to do whatever they felt like doing then went out your way to stomp on anyone who might object to that. What the fuck did you think would happen?
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on November 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
You have a green light to a genocide you dumb bastards. Told a nation led by far-right psychopaths to do whatever they felt like doing then went out your way to stomp on anyone who might object to that. What the fuck did you think would happen?
posted by Artw at 8:13 AM on November 5, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not for the leopard to eat their face.
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 9:27 AM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel Quietly Pushed for Egypt to Admit Large Numbers of Gazans: The Israeli government has not publicly called for large numbers of Gazans to move to Egypt. But in private, diplomats say, it has pushed for just that — augmenting Palestinian fears of a permanent expulsion.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 10:25 AM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
It's ... not too late to withhold the military aid though.
posted by kensington314 at 12:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
It's ... not too late to withhold the military aid though.
posted by kensington314 at 12:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
The mythology on this is conflict — for example the attempt to minimize the importance of US supplies during the October 1973 Yom Kippur war above — are an example of why this conflict is to hard to discuss.
It is the same kind of poison that Putin, MAGA and Brexit voters embrace in Russia, the US and UK. A dangerous believe in the unshakable national superiority and inevitability of triumph as ordained by fate or divine rights. Ultimately this is a self defeating ideology that will lead to ruin.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
It is the same kind of poison that Putin, MAGA and Brexit voters embrace in Russia, the US and UK. A dangerous believe in the unshakable national superiority and inevitability of triumph as ordained by fate or divine rights. Ultimately this is a self defeating ideology that will lead to ruin.
posted by interogative mood at 12:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Getting some news coverage here today.
An Israeli minister has been suspended from government meetings "until further notice", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said, after suggesting in an interview dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, and saying Palestinians should "go to Ireland or the desert".
posted by night_train at 12:42 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
An Israeli minister has been suspended from government meetings "until further notice", Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office said, after suggesting in an interview dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza, and saying Palestinians should "go to Ireland or the desert".
posted by night_train at 12:42 PM on November 5, 2023 [5 favorites]
Ilhan Pappe the author of The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine writing for Al Jazeera.
Why Israel wants to erase context and history in the war on Gaza.
The dehistoricisation of what is happening helps Israel pursue genocidal policies in Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Why Israel wants to erase context and history in the war on Gaza.
The dehistoricisation of what is happening helps Israel pursue genocidal policies in Gaza.
posted by adamvasco at 1:27 PM on November 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Another one: White House frustrated by Israel’s onslaught but sees few options
"Oh," saidBush Biden in clear exasperation, "the vision thing."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Oh," said
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:28 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Typical right wing language, it's always 'rhetoric' [in NZ we now have a far right govt as press wouldn't challenge racist speech] "Following the outcry over his remarks, Mr Eliyahu said in a post on X, that his statement about the atomic bomb was "metaphorical".
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
posted by unearthed at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
posted by unearthed at 1:41 PM on November 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
'Heritage' as in 'minister of ethnonationalism' since the position was resurrected by Likud.
Eliyahu is leader of the literal "Jewish Power Party."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Eliyahu is leader of the literal "Jewish Power Party."
posted by snuffleupagus at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also it seems unusual for a heritage minister to use apocalytic war talk is there more to his statement than meets the eye?
I was common for my wife's uncle to bring up at the Thanksgiving table during the 80's that his preference was to use neutron bombs (enhanced radiation) which did the ethnic cleansing, but with minimal damage to the real-estate. I suspect this person's real breach of protocol was saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
I was common for my wife's uncle to bring up at the Thanksgiving table during the 80's that his preference was to use neutron bombs (enhanced radiation) which did the ethnic cleansing, but with minimal damage to the real-estate. I suspect this person's real breach of protocol was saying the quiet part out loud.
posted by mikelieman at 1:56 PM on November 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Earlier today there was a pro-Palestinian March and demonstration with about 2000 people in Stockholm, according to the national news service. That’s a big crowd for a Stockholm demonstration.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:08 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:08 PM on November 5, 2023 [10 favorites]
“Chartbook 251: Israel's national security neoliberalism put to the test,” Adam Tooze, Chartbook, 04 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 3:52 PM on November 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
The good news for what passes for good news:
- A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
- 75 aid trucks made it into southern Gaza.
- Hezbollah leader Nasrallah’s speech on Friday was more subdued and seemed to indicate they are holding back for now.
- An aircraft that usually transports high level Israeli officials and has been linked to past negotiations was in Cairo for a few hours this weekend.
- Blinken seems to be doing the listening tour of Arab capitals. It seems like the old hands at the State Department are being brought back into the room instead of being shut out as Blinken and other top Biden NSC officials realize that they’ve been played by Netenyahu.
posted by interogative mood at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
- A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
- 75 aid trucks made it into southern Gaza.
- Hezbollah leader Nasrallah’s speech on Friday was more subdued and seemed to indicate they are holding back for now.
- An aircraft that usually transports high level Israeli officials and has been linked to past negotiations was in Cairo for a few hours this weekend.
- Blinken seems to be doing the listening tour of Arab capitals. It seems like the old hands at the State Department are being brought back into the room instead of being shut out as Blinken and other top Biden NSC officials realize that they’ve been played by Netenyahu.
posted by interogative mood at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
A humanitarian corridor has been setup to allow safe passage from northern Gaza to southern Gaza
Considering the IDF bombed the corridor route the last time they told people to flee south, I don't know if we can, uh, take IDF proclamations of a "humanitarian corridor" at face value. In other news...
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
House Republicans Introduce Legislation ‘To Expel Palestinians From the United States’
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
Considering the IDF bombed the corridor route the last time they told people to flee south, I don't know if we can, uh, take IDF proclamations of a "humanitarian corridor" at face value. In other news...
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
House Republicans Introduce Legislation ‘To Expel Palestinians From the United States’
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is the first known incident of space combat - Houthis claimed responsibility for firing ballistic missiles into Israel, one of which was intercepted outside earth's atmosphere by an Arrow III interceptor.
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on November 5, 2023
posted by xdvesper at 5:51 PM on November 5, 2023
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
Came here to post this. Looked around and made sure it was legitimate. Not like everything going on and the ongoing genocide isn't one billion percent disgusting, but unreal how this is getting even worse. Just horrific. Disgusting.
posted by cashman at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
Came here to post this. Looked around and made sure it was legitimate. Not like everything going on and the ongoing genocide isn't one billion percent disgusting, but unreal how this is getting even worse. Just horrific. Disgusting.
posted by cashman at 7:04 PM on November 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
A better group of Israeli doctors is Physicians for Human Rights Israel.
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 10:07 PM on November 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
What happened to "first do no harm"? They shouldn't be allowed to practice - what are they going to do if a "terrorist snake" ends up their patient, given they were willing to kill innocents and bomb hospitals just for a chance to get them dead?
posted by Dysk at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
What happened to "first do no harm"? They shouldn't be allowed to practice - what are they going to do if a "terrorist snake" ends up their patient, given they were willing to kill innocents and bomb hospitals just for a chance to get them dead?
posted by Dysk at 1:22 AM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
If its one thing twitter has shown me is that (in the US at least) doctors have pretty horrible worldviews/politics.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:36 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
If its one thing twitter has shown me is that (in the US at least) doctors have pretty horrible worldviews/politics.
That, for me, was definitely one of the surprises of the pandemic.
More generally, while it is great to share news and analyses, it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention -- I'm not convinced that we really need to repeatedly give them that attention and amplification in this thread. Terrible people are going to be predictably terrible.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
That, for me, was definitely one of the surprises of the pandemic.
More generally, while it is great to share news and analyses, it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention -- I'm not convinced that we really need to repeatedly give them that attention and amplification in this thread. Terrible people are going to be predictably terrible.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:57 AM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
it isn't necessary to amplify the most outrageous statements. To pick an example, the small number of GOP representatives that are pushing the measure to deport Palestinians are doing it to get attention
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
It is now increasingly clear that Hamas is not the main target. Hamas is the excuse to obliterate as many inhabitants of Gaza as possible and drive the rest into the Sinai desert.
This is a Genocide. What is being achieved with American supplied bombs in Gaza is also being achieved with American supplied A38s in the West Bank.
Israel is also holding foreign hostages in that it is noticeable that US citizens are being allowed to exit Gaza whilest Brazilians for example are not,.
the Israeli government signals that it has established a political hierarchy for the release of civilians, favouring some countries over others
posted by adamvasco at 7:40 AM on November 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
This is a Genocide. What is being achieved with American supplied bombs in Gaza is also being achieved with American supplied A38s in the West Bank.
Israel is also holding foreign hostages in that it is noticeable that US citizens are being allowed to exit Gaza whilest Brazilians for example are not,.
the Israeli government signals that it has established a political hierarchy for the release of civilians, favouring some countries over others
posted by adamvasco at 7:40 AM on November 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israeli doctors urge the bombing of Gaza hospitals
What happened to "first do no harm"?
I noticed that at least one of them works at the Rabin Medical Center. I can't even.
posted by virago at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2023
What happened to "first do no harm"?
I noticed that at least one of them works at the Rabin Medical Center. I can't even.
posted by virago at 7:49 AM on November 6, 2023
What about the large number of Israeli government officials using genocidal and exterminationist language? "Amalek", "vermin", etc. Are they doing it to get attention, too?
So, this is just my opinion, not any strong statement about moderation policies or saying that what people do is right or wrong. Personally, I see very little value in the outrage links of "terrible person just said horrible thing!" (not just in this thread, I feel this way generally) -- functionally, it amplifies the message without offering anything else. On the contrary, I find enormous value when someone posts a link to a thoughtful analysis or informed perspective that puts the terrible people saying horrible things in context, where I can understand why this is happening and whether or not it matters, what might happen next, etc.
And to your question: yes, I am sure many of them are saying those horrible things in large part to get attention. That's what terrible public figures always do, both to boost their personal brand and as a way to advance policy goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
So, this is just my opinion, not any strong statement about moderation policies or saying that what people do is right or wrong. Personally, I see very little value in the outrage links of "terrible person just said horrible thing!" (not just in this thread, I feel this way generally) -- functionally, it amplifies the message without offering anything else. On the contrary, I find enormous value when someone posts a link to a thoughtful analysis or informed perspective that puts the terrible people saying horrible things in context, where I can understand why this is happening and whether or not it matters, what might happen next, etc.
And to your question: yes, I am sure many of them are saying those horrible things in large part to get attention. That's what terrible public figures always do, both to boost their personal brand and as a way to advance policy goals.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [11 favorites]
The UN is hosting a briefing from Israel entitled, "Never Again is Now!". It started ten minutes ago and is available, live and replay, here.
They opened by explaining that since the heinous attacks by Hamas on the 7th, global antisemitism incidents have risen 500%. Even allowing for the fact that they consider anything decrying Zionism to be antisemitic, I don't think anyone doubts they are correct there has been a rise of actual antisemitism.
Zero acknowledgement that anything might have happened in the month since that might be worsening that problem though - and that's a tough thing to talk about. Israel's ongoing genocide no more makes antisemitism acceptable than Hamas's terrorism makes Islamophobia acceptable.
That said, the powerful men ordering those crimes and setting those policies are morally culpable, not just for the crimes against those they target, but for the blowback against the innocents who they are responsible for or seen as representing.
A pox on Benjamin Netanyahu, Ismail Haniyeh, and all their ilk.
posted by bcd at 8:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
They opened by explaining that since the heinous attacks by Hamas on the 7th, global antisemitism incidents have risen 500%. Even allowing for the fact that they consider anything decrying Zionism to be antisemitic, I don't think anyone doubts they are correct there has been a rise of actual antisemitism.
Zero acknowledgement that anything might have happened in the month since that might be worsening that problem though - and that's a tough thing to talk about. Israel's ongoing genocide no more makes antisemitism acceptable than Hamas's terrorism makes Islamophobia acceptable.
That said, the powerful men ordering those crimes and setting those policies are morally culpable, not just for the crimes against those they target, but for the blowback against the innocents who they are responsible for or seen as representing.
A pox on Benjamin Netanyahu, Ismail Haniyeh, and all their ilk.
posted by bcd at 8:24 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I would add to Dip Flash’s comment that there’s a big difference in posting news about some outrageous thing some one said who has little power or real influence versus what say Biden or senior leaders in a government are saying. And even those latter should be linked with analysis and ways to push for them to not suck. That is, if you’re in the US and want a ceasefire or some kind of change, then call your congress people, even the ones who seem to have awdul opinions. It’s a well known problem that members of Congress often underestimate constituent tauport on issues.
posted by R343L at 8:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 8:26 AM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
The letter was first posted on Quds News Network’s a Hamas affiliated news agency and then shared by a far left news outlet Mondoweiss. This could be genuine, or could also be a forgery. It might have started as a forgery and gained real signatures. The original tweet claimed that 1,000 Israeli doctors had signed it; but showed only 9 signatures.
I’d like to see more mainstream coverage of this and confirmation from individual signers that they signed it. Please share those stories as they start to show up.
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 AM on November 6, 2023
I’d like to see more mainstream coverage of this and confirmation from individual signers that they signed it. Please share those stories as they start to show up.
posted by interogative mood at 9:34 AM on November 6, 2023
Israel-Hamas war is deadliest ever for UN aid workers, with at least 88 killed
posted by ssg at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:56 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Re "Never again is now", I just finished reading this opinion piece from a Jewish professor at Columbia, saying the same thing, and expressing his fear and horror at the antisemitism he sees in the pro-Palestinian protests at Columbia and elsewhere.
First, I'm wrenched by reading about his pain and fear. It's similar to what a Jewish former co-worker has expressed to me. It's horrible, and a necessary reminder of how absolutely wrong and unjustifiable the Oct 7 massacre was, no matter what we think about the IDF response. The author also mentions his support of the Palestinian cause and a 2-state solution, and acknowledges their pain too, so I don't think he's trying to justify the ferocity of the IDF response.
My current questions: are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
It's diabolical (said the atheist) just how effectively the Hamas terrorism of Oct 7 has so efficiently split open the Israel-Palestine faultline again, worldwide.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:13 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
First, I'm wrenched by reading about his pain and fear. It's similar to what a Jewish former co-worker has expressed to me. It's horrible, and a necessary reminder of how absolutely wrong and unjustifiable the Oct 7 massacre was, no matter what we think about the IDF response. The author also mentions his support of the Palestinian cause and a 2-state solution, and acknowledges their pain too, so I don't think he's trying to justify the ferocity of the IDF response.
My current questions: are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
It's diabolical (said the atheist) just how effectively the Hamas terrorism of Oct 7 has so efficiently split open the Israel-Palestine faultline again, worldwide.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:13 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
yes (see Germany), yes (see Milan demo), and yes (everywhere, pretty much).
Yet Bassem Youssef’s question stands, as yet unanswered: what is the acceptable exchange rate, this time?
posted by progosk at 10:28 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
yes (see Germany), yes (see Milan demo), and yes (everywhere, pretty much).
Yet Bassem Youssef’s question stands, as yet unanswered: what is the acceptable exchange rate, this time?
posted by progosk at 10:28 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
U.S. diplomats slam Israel policy in leaked memo
State Department staffers offered a blistering critique of the Biden administration’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a dissent memo obtained by POLITICO, arguing that, among other things, the U.S. should be willing to publicly criticize the Israelis.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
State Department staffers offered a blistering critique of the Biden administration’s handling of the Israel-Hamas war in a dissent memo obtained by POLITICO, arguing that, among other things, the U.S. should be willing to publicly criticize the Israelis.
posted by Artw at 10:33 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think Davidai is writing in entirely good faith. Davidai described Joseph Massad as someone 'who consider such horrors [Hamas' 10/7 attack] as “awesome” acts of “resistance.”' But Massad is not saying, whoa these attacks against civilians are totally awesome!
Massad wrote :
"The sight of the Palestinian resistance fighters storming Israeli checkpoints separating Gaza from Israel was astounding, not only to the Israelis but especially to the Palestinian and Arab peoples who came out across the region to march in support of the Palestinians in their battle against their cruel colonizers...No less awesome were the scenes witnessed by millions of jubilant Arabs who spent the day watching the news, of Palestinian fighters from Gaza breaking through Israel’s prison fence or gliding over it by air."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:34 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Massad wrote :
"The sight of the Palestinian resistance fighters storming Israeli checkpoints separating Gaza from Israel was astounding, not only to the Israelis but especially to the Palestinian and Arab peoples who came out across the region to march in support of the Palestinians in their battle against their cruel colonizers...No less awesome were the scenes witnessed by millions of jubilant Arabs who spent the day watching the news, of Palestinian fighters from Gaza breaking through Israel’s prison fence or gliding over it by air."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:34 AM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Davidai is not writing in good faith. This is the same crybully dynamic that is often identified as "white women's tears" when transposed to a US racial context.
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dusty potato at 10:49 AM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
are hypersensitivities or partisanship making pro-Palestine, anti-Zionist protests seem antisemitic, or are certain fringe antisemites hitching a ride on this, or is there a deeper, wider antisemitism in the public coming out that has been there all along?
I believe the answer is, 'absolutely all three'.
posted by bcd at 10:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I believe the answer is, 'absolutely all three'.
posted by bcd at 10:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I was just watching Swedish national news. It included a report from France that covered vandalism such as Stars of David being spray painted on buildings in a horrifying nod to World War II. One woman, a Jewish grade school teacher, was weeping as she explained that she has lost all hope for a world without antisemites and without hate for Jews. She’s worried that she’s going to be attacked. People are sending her hateful messages on her social media and demanding that she stop the bombing of Gaza. “How am I supposed to stop the bombing in Gaza?” she asked.
People are being horrible to Jews and to Arabs and Israel is still bombing Gaza. There’s not room here for periods to represent all the deaths on October 7 and since then.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
People are being horrible to Jews and to Arabs and Israel is still bombing Gaza. There’s not room here for periods to represent all the deaths on October 7 and since then.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:11 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
This wasn’t some non-violent march to the fence — Iirc the Palestinians did that a few years ago and it was one of their most effective acts of resistance in years
It is useful to also remember what the IDF did to them when they did that.
posted by bcd at 11:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
It is useful to also remember what the IDF did to them when they did that.
posted by bcd at 11:38 AM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
I don't particularly subscribe to the "great men of history" approach with all of its focus on unique famous actors, but it is stunning how much impact Rabin's killing turned out to have. In hindsight, it is such a clear turning point.
I don't know if it is that Rabin was so important, but that his death was a trigger moment like the death of Archduke Ferdinand. It's not the person who died so much as everything that came out from their death. I have met young Israelis who were born after Rabin died who still remember every year what might have been.
posted by jb at 11:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know if it is that Rabin was so important, but that his death was a trigger moment like the death of Archduke Ferdinand. It's not the person who died so much as everything that came out from their death. I have met young Israelis who were born after Rabin died who still remember every year what might have been.
posted by jb at 11:51 AM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Derail about OJ Simpson deleted. Please do not make analogies like this one as they will be provocative without any constructive or helpful result.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
It sure sounds like Massad is describing the attack as something worthy of celebrating and justifying .
I have to agree with the above (since-deleted) statement. "Palestinian resistance fighters", "...in their battle against their cruel colonizers.". They weren't resistance fighters, it wasn't anyone's idea of a battle; it was a massacre. Terrorism. Why is it hard for some to acknowledge that?
Likewise, the IDF isn't currently engaged in a defensive action; they are seeking vengeance and the elimination of Hamas without regards to the lives of Gazan non-combatants. It does seem like they're intending to drive Palestinians right out of Gaza.
Truth is the first casualty, etc etc.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:12 PM on November 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I have to agree with the above (since-deleted) statement. "Palestinian resistance fighters", "...in their battle against their cruel colonizers.". They weren't resistance fighters, it wasn't anyone's idea of a battle; it was a massacre. Terrorism. Why is it hard for some to acknowledge that?
Likewise, the IDF isn't currently engaged in a defensive action; they are seeking vengeance and the elimination of Hamas without regards to the lives of Gazan non-combatants. It does seem like they're intending to drive Palestinians right out of Gaza.
Truth is the first casualty, etc etc.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:12 PM on November 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
It seems to me that original comment regarding criticism of Massad and calling it acting in bad faith was far more outrageous. I think the mods should delete that as well.
posted by interogative mood at 12:33 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 12:33 PM on November 6, 2023
at the risk of adding too much levity: i must say, as someone who missed the original comment/comments, that that mod note is among the funniest i've seen in a long time and i am now updating my list of worst things to bring up while talking about israel and palestine.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:02 PM on November 6, 2023 [21 favorites]
"There are lots of diseases now"
‘I could never dream such a nightmare’: Gaza in grip of humanitarian disaster
UN official, medics and displaced people tell of overcrowding, panic and lack of essentials as bombardment continues
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
‘I could never dream such a nightmare’: Gaza in grip of humanitarian disaster
UN official, medics and displaced people tell of overcrowding, panic and lack of essentials as bombardment continues
posted by lalochezia at 3:39 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Obama makes some sensible points that will satisfy no one.
posted by interogative mood at 5:05 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 5:05 PM on November 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Obama makes some sensible points that will satisfy no one
Not so much? The situation isn't really complex. Israel has been violating international law with settlement building for decades. The actions of Hamas et al occur within that context. It isn't any more "complex" than the dispossession and imprisonment on reservations of Native Americans in the 19th century.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:24 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Not so much? The situation isn't really complex. Israel has been violating international law with settlement building for decades. The actions of Hamas et al occur within that context. It isn't any more "complex" than the dispossession and imprisonment on reservations of Native Americans in the 19th century.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:24 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
For people who don't click links, here is the sentence in which Obama references complexity:
“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable”
That hardly seems objectionable? He seems to be using the word "complex" here to mean "able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time." Which you'd think wouldn't be a big deal and yet here we are.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
“If there’s any chance of us being able to act constructively to do something, it will require an admission of complexity and maintaining what on the surface may seem contradictory ideas that what Hamas did was horrific, and there’s no justification for it. And … that the occupation and what’s happening to Palestinians is unbearable”
That hardly seems objectionable? He seems to be using the word "complex" here to mean "able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time." Which you'd think wouldn't be a big deal and yet here we are.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
That excerpt just seems not very actionable or material. Currently the Israeli military is killing thousands after thousands of innocent people and there is a proliferation of newspaper articles about how the United States government, having initially decided to "stand with" Israel in their retaliation, now appears unable to influence or curb the disproportionate and sadistic cruelty the country is engaged in.
So like, I welcome a both sides sentiment from a former American president, I guess, I would mark a both sides sentiment as a kind of sad progress, but Obama's comments don't provide a path forward for anybody and are probably just not very important! He's not the President, and the person who is the President just had his Secretary of State return home having apparently been totally rebuffed by Netanyahu.
posted by kensington314 at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
So like, I welcome a both sides sentiment from a former American president, I guess, I would mark a both sides sentiment as a kind of sad progress, but Obama's comments don't provide a path forward for anybody and are probably just not very important! He's not the President, and the person who is the President just had his Secretary of State return home having apparently been totally rebuffed by Netanyahu.
posted by kensington314 at 6:16 PM on November 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
The IDF captured a Scout troop meeting place that Hamas has been using as a place to store and shoot rockets.
posted by interogative mood at 6:44 PM on November 6, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:44 PM on November 6, 2023
For those of us who have either worked on this topic for a while or been involved with these conversations for a long enough time, “it’s complex “ or “it’s really complicated “ has been code for “this is an inscrutable conflict between two people with millennia long grievances and you need a PhD in the subject to understand it, so shut your mouth if you’re going to go against centrist opinion on this issue [in the US]”. Ta-nehsi Coates had a recent interview about this point and his view was “witnessing the occupation first hand made it clear that this is not a gray area”. The politics of it are complex for sure, as is the history.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 PM on November 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:50 PM on November 6, 2023 [18 favorites]
I thought the actual Obama interview answer was better than the excerpt. I skipped the setup, even this part is 6+ minutes.
Here's how he ended:
Here's how he ended:
I would rather see you out there talking to people, including people who you disagree with. If you genuinely want to change this, then you've got to figure out how to speak to somebody on the other side, and listen to them and understand what they are talking about and not dismiss it. Becuase you can't save that child without their help, not in this situation.posted by netowl at 7:21 PM on November 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even that part is bullshit. The idea that Israelis and Palestinians don’t talk to each other is laughable. This is just regurgitated ethnic primordial hatred BS. No, the problem is politics and policy, and the more powerful actor in the conflict is underwritten by the most powerful empire in the world, and US policy has been disastrous for human rights. And nearly unconditional military aid to Israel is the crux of the issue in the US. Maybe Obama could do something about that instead of lecturing us plebs.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:32 PM on November 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
The IDF captured a Scout troop meeting place that Hamas has been using as a place to store and shoot rockets.
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here, when they are very clearly mounting a significant propaganda campaign? There are lots of reputable news sources available.
posted by ssg at 7:41 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here, when they are very clearly mounting a significant propaganda campaign? There are lots of reputable news sources available.
posted by ssg at 7:41 PM on November 6, 2023 [15 favorites]
ah you see this bombed to shit basement may once have been used for boy scouts meetings so actually it’s ok to kill thousands of children
posted by dis_integration at 7:47 PM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:47 PM on November 6, 2023 [13 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
I'm happy with images and video which we can verify and form our own judgements on, that's the basis of OSINT. There are also images and video which show gunfire from hospitals and also tunnel entrances from under it, as well as statements from US officials that Hamas tried to smuggle fighters out of Gaza in ambulances by getting them on the evacuation list
Images and video are far more useful than, say, the posters here who parroted the falsehood that the al Ahli hospital was "blown up" when if they had just looked at the actual images, it was plain for all to see that the worst damage to it was some windows got shattered and the overwhelming consensus globally is that it was a stray rocket, not an IDF bomb.
posted by xdvesper at 8:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
I'm happy with images and video which we can verify and form our own judgements on, that's the basis of OSINT. There are also images and video which show gunfire from hospitals and also tunnel entrances from under it, as well as statements from US officials that Hamas tried to smuggle fighters out of Gaza in ambulances by getting them on the evacuation list
Images and video are far more useful than, say, the posters here who parroted the falsehood that the al Ahli hospital was "blown up" when if they had just looked at the actual images, it was plain for all to see that the worst damage to it was some windows got shattered and the overwhelming consensus globally is that it was a stray rocket, not an IDF bomb.
posted by xdvesper at 8:20 PM on November 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
And if you say, well we believe Hamas casualty figures are totally trustworthy for $reasons but the IDF are not.
Then you will also believe Hamas when they say they did not kill a single civilian (BBC interview) in Israel on Oct 7, they only targeted conscripts.
My point is that you need to look at the evidence and make up your own mind.
I don't hear it discussed much but I think the ballistic missile that the Houthis fired at Israel is a significant escalation that led directly to CENTCOM posting a picture showing they had an Ohio class nuclear submarine in the area of operations.
These medium ranged ballistic missiles like the one that hit Israel fly outside the earth's atmosphere and have a range of 2500km or greater. The only way to intercept them is to hit them while they're in space, by the time they're heading back down to earth at 15x the speed of sound they can't be stopped.
That launch was deliberately timed with the threat from Iran that the US "will be hit hard" if there is no ceasefire in Gaza - not that the US seems capable of achieving that anyway. This is Iran showing it has the willingness and maybe the capability to do it.
Iran is not publicly known to have a missile capable of reaching the US, but the Houthis were not publicly known to have ballistic missiles capable of hitting Israel either, until they did.
This adds a new dimension to the US pressure on Israel to halt the offensive in Gaza.
If a ballistic missile was detected heading towards the US, they would have already fired counter-strikes against the origin nation before the missile crossed into US territory, and that's probably what the Ohio class submarine is for. Depending on the origin nation and number of missiles fired, these counter-strikes might be nuclear in nature. There's no way to know if the ballistic missile heading your way has a nuclear or biological warhead.
That a ballistic missile from space almost hit Israel goes by unremarked is pretty crazy to me. It's probably the fact that Israel is too busy defending against hundreds of rockets daily from the West (Gaza), and is being attacked from the North (Hezbollah in Lebanon) and also the South (Houthis in Yemen).
Hezbollah's stockpiles are much deeper than Hamas, estimated at 150,000 rockets.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Then you will also believe Hamas when they say they did not kill a single civilian (BBC interview) in Israel on Oct 7, they only targeted conscripts.
My point is that you need to look at the evidence and make up your own mind.
I don't hear it discussed much but I think the ballistic missile that the Houthis fired at Israel is a significant escalation that led directly to CENTCOM posting a picture showing they had an Ohio class nuclear submarine in the area of operations.
These medium ranged ballistic missiles like the one that hit Israel fly outside the earth's atmosphere and have a range of 2500km or greater. The only way to intercept them is to hit them while they're in space, by the time they're heading back down to earth at 15x the speed of sound they can't be stopped.
That launch was deliberately timed with the threat from Iran that the US "will be hit hard" if there is no ceasefire in Gaza - not that the US seems capable of achieving that anyway. This is Iran showing it has the willingness and maybe the capability to do it.
Iran is not publicly known to have a missile capable of reaching the US, but the Houthis were not publicly known to have ballistic missiles capable of hitting Israel either, until they did.
This adds a new dimension to the US pressure on Israel to halt the offensive in Gaza.
If a ballistic missile was detected heading towards the US, they would have already fired counter-strikes against the origin nation before the missile crossed into US territory, and that's probably what the Ohio class submarine is for. Depending on the origin nation and number of missiles fired, these counter-strikes might be nuclear in nature. There's no way to know if the ballistic missile heading your way has a nuclear or biological warhead.
That a ballistic missile from space almost hit Israel goes by unremarked is pretty crazy to me. It's probably the fact that Israel is too busy defending against hundreds of rockets daily from the West (Gaza), and is being attacked from the North (Hezbollah in Lebanon) and also the South (Houthis in Yemen).
Hezbollah's stockpiles are much deeper than Hamas, estimated at 150,000 rockets.
posted by xdvesper at 10:15 PM on November 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Brandeis University bans Students for Justice in Palestine chapter
(Contrary to what the headline states, I don't believe they're the first college to do this... Fordham, for instance has done this previously... also all of Florida, apparently)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Contrary to what the headline states, I don't believe they're the first college to do this... Fordham, for instance has done this previously... also all of Florida, apparently)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:20 AM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
There’s a huge difference between what Hamas (the military wing) says is dead or not dead or who they killed or did not kill, and the Gaza Ministry of Health. Everyone can cut out the middleman and just cite Btselem or HRW, they all rely on the ministry of health’s numbers.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:04 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:04 AM on November 7, 2023 [10 favorites]
Maybe we should not link directly to claims on social media by the IDF here
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that, but should find a reputable outlet that notes the claim is from Hamas.
And the same goes for the IDF. Linking directly to them - when we know they (like many police outlets) have regularly lied, only to later correct themselves when fewer folks are watching - is not helpful in creating a thoughtful conversation here among folks who strongly disagree.
Do better. At this point in these discussions linking an IDF site as an authoritative source does not help with that thoughtfulness. Find another source that presents their claims as claims.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
In which case we should not use the casualty figures by Hamas either.
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that, but should find a reputable outlet that notes the claim is from Hamas.
And the same goes for the IDF. Linking directly to them - when we know they (like many police outlets) have regularly lied, only to later correct themselves when fewer folks are watching - is not helpful in creating a thoughtful conversation here among folks who strongly disagree.
Do better. At this point in these discussions linking an IDF site as an authoritative source does not help with that thoughtfulness. Find another source that presents their claims as claims.
posted by mediareport at 7:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor:
"In just a few hours of violent and intense air attacks on the Gaza Strip overnight, and amid a total blackout of communications and Internet services, Israel has committed its largest massacre since its establishment in 1948, the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor reported today...Euro-Med Monitor estimated that Israel's overnight attacks, the scale of which is unprecedented since the start of its war on the Gaza Strip on 7 October, left more than 1,500 people dead or wounded as well as hundreds of homes destroyed, many with their residents trapped inside.
The Israeli army has declared it struck more than 450 targets last night, and continues its incitement against hospitals, with areas around several in Gaza City and its northern areas, including Al-Shifa Medical Complex, the Indonesian Hospital, the Eye Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital and the only psychiatric hospital in the Strip, targeted in an unprecedented and violent manner, according to Euro-Med Monitor. The Israeli army has claimed that hospitals are being used for military purposes without presenting any concrete proof.
Since the start of the ongoing Israeli war, 16 out of 35 hospitals and 51 primary care facilities (more than 75%) across the Gaza Strip have been unable to operate due to the intense Israeli raids or fuel shortages."
Link here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
"In just a few hours of violent and intense air attacks on the Gaza Strip overnight, and amid a total blackout of communications and Internet services, Israel has committed its largest massacre since its establishment in 1948, the Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor reported today...Euro-Med Monitor estimated that Israel's overnight attacks, the scale of which is unprecedented since the start of its war on the Gaza Strip on 7 October, left more than 1,500 people dead or wounded as well as hundreds of homes destroyed, many with their residents trapped inside.
The Israeli army has declared it struck more than 450 targets last night, and continues its incitement against hospitals, with areas around several in Gaza City and its northern areas, including Al-Shifa Medical Complex, the Indonesian Hospital, the Eye Hospital, Al-Quds Hospital and the only psychiatric hospital in the Strip, targeted in an unprecedented and violent manner, according to Euro-Med Monitor. The Israeli army has claimed that hospitals are being used for military purposes without presenting any concrete proof.
Since the start of the ongoing Israeli war, 16 out of 35 hospitals and 51 primary care facilities (more than 75%) across the Gaza Strip have been unable to operate due to the intense Israeli raids or fuel shortages."
Link here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on November 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality. It is incredibly frustrating to hear over and over again from ideologues who think there is some totally obvious, simple solution to this enduring conflict be they Likudniks or Leftists. If you want to see where that kind of thinking leads look at the mess of Biden's response on this. In the rush to react to the events of October 7th the actual experts at US State Department, US AID, DOD, CIA and other experts who've spent decades on this were pushed aside and ignored by Biden's advisors who thought they knew better.
The progress towards or a full resolution of this conflict will require negotiation and compromise. That is what centrists do and why they are the target of the ideologues, who seem to actually think "centrist" is a pejorative.
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
The progress towards or a full resolution of this conflict will require negotiation and compromise. That is what centrists do and why they are the target of the ideologues, who seem to actually think "centrist" is a pejorative.
posted by interogative mood at 8:47 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality.
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
posted by ssg at 8:59 AM on November 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
As someone who has been involved in this for a long time "it's complicated' is just the reality. It is incredibly frustrating to hear over and over again from ideologues who think there is some totally obvious, simple solution to this enduring conflict be they Likudniks or Leftists.
Could you spend a little bit more effort reading what people are actually writing? No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple. At all.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Could you spend a little bit more effort reading what people are actually writing? No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple. At all.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:16 AM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are two different things. One is complicated (what a lasting peace looks like) and the other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
I'm still in the camp of "it's complicated." The one thing that doesn't seem complicated to me is the need for some kind of "humanitarian pause" or whatever you want to call it, because there are thousands and thousands of civilians who desperately need food, water, access to medical care, etc. But even that would be tricky in execution -- like, how do you best structure a pause or ceasefire to maximize benefits to civilians while limiting to the extent possible benefits to Hamas?
The other benefit some kind of pause would give is perhaps it would allow Israel to come up with a workable plan and goals that go beyond "bomb the crap out of the entire area" which seems increasingly unlikely to achieve just about any goal possible.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm still in the camp of "it's complicated." The one thing that doesn't seem complicated to me is the need for some kind of "humanitarian pause" or whatever you want to call it, because there are thousands and thousands of civilians who desperately need food, water, access to medical care, etc. But even that would be tricky in execution -- like, how do you best structure a pause or ceasefire to maximize benefits to civilians while limiting to the extent possible benefits to Hamas?
The other benefit some kind of pause would give is perhaps it would allow Israel to come up with a workable plan and goals that go beyond "bomb the crap out of the entire area" which seems increasingly unlikely to achieve just about any goal possible.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:21 AM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
No one is saying the politics or history or solution is simple.
Nobody except Obama, per your above screed
posted by Jarcat at 9:36 AM on November 7, 2023
Nobody except Obama, per your above screed
posted by Jarcat at 9:36 AM on November 7, 2023
Most of the folks I see saying anything like “it’s not complicated” are folks like Ta-Nehisi Coates who very clearly is stating a moral case about particular aspects: that it’s not complicated to judge that certain actions are definitely wrong (eg: Hamas’ attack on 10/7 targetting non-combatants, the IDF subsequently killing thousands of children in Gaza, or land theft in the West Bank). They typically will go on to note that getting to a place where those immoral things don’t happen might be complicated but that we should be able to say without compromise that some things are wrong, even if fixing them is hard. The Democracy Now interview with TNC makes this point, as have most of the left wing pieces I’ve read and many folks online elsewhere. Maybe there are college kids and niche activist groups in the US who omit talking about how we get to a less immoral status quo or assert absurd demands for Israel, but I haven’t read anyone with substantial cultural or political power making the claim that the conflict is straightforward to fix.
Relatedly the most recent bonus episode of Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz podcast opened talking about the news in the year of release for a movie from the late 1970s — at the beginning of their episodes they talk about whatever news is on the front page of the New York Times. For this episode, Ganz talked extensively about a couple news stories related to diplomatic talks between Prime Minister Begim of Israel and President Sadat of Egypt. A point Ganz makes is the ultimate agreement they came to normalized Egypt-Israel relations but excluded Palestinian representatives from the negotiations and did not address self-determination for Palestinians. Ganz is himself clearly of the position that it is not complicated to say how Palestinians as a group are treated across Gaza, the West Bank, in refugee camps, etc is wrong but he is clearly aware that achieving it is complicated.
But right now in the United States folks are being labeled as terrorist supporters merely for asserting that it’s wrong to kill children simply because someone in Hamas MIGHT be nearby and other such moral stances that have a long history of many people across the world holding true (including at times when the US has done similarly wrong things and been criticized for it). This kind of political environment is not only corrosive to people’s souls (if you are convincing yourself it’s okay to kill children in this way, what else will you accept?) but also makes it hard for leaders in the United States to push for mitigations of harm like a ceasefire which clearly is a prerequisite for anyone to be willing to talk.
posted by R343L at 9:40 AM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Relatedly the most recent bonus episode of Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz podcast opened talking about the news in the year of release for a movie from the late 1970s — at the beginning of their episodes they talk about whatever news is on the front page of the New York Times. For this episode, Ganz talked extensively about a couple news stories related to diplomatic talks between Prime Minister Begim of Israel and President Sadat of Egypt. A point Ganz makes is the ultimate agreement they came to normalized Egypt-Israel relations but excluded Palestinian representatives from the negotiations and did not address self-determination for Palestinians. Ganz is himself clearly of the position that it is not complicated to say how Palestinians as a group are treated across Gaza, the West Bank, in refugee camps, etc is wrong but he is clearly aware that achieving it is complicated.
But right now in the United States folks are being labeled as terrorist supporters merely for asserting that it’s wrong to kill children simply because someone in Hamas MIGHT be nearby and other such moral stances that have a long history of many people across the world holding true (including at times when the US has done similarly wrong things and been criticized for it). This kind of political environment is not only corrosive to people’s souls (if you are convincing yourself it’s okay to kill children in this way, what else will you accept?) but also makes it hard for leaders in the United States to push for mitigations of harm like a ceasefire which clearly is a prerequisite for anyone to be willing to talk.
posted by R343L at 9:40 AM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The following news link, personally, gets to me so much. There's so much background radioactive antisemitism in my daily life it has been ongoing work to make sure that I don't fall into antisemitic tropes just because I support Palestinian self-determination and liberty. This is something that I see, with varying levels of success, at numerous spaces and groups (and those who don't care can be safely dismissed as anti-Semitic). And yet, even a little critique gets the reflexive accusation, that it feels like the only reason why this round of discourse isn't turning out that way is because it's no longer discourse when it's about 30 days of just unending retribution (and tonight I'm reminded of what happened in Philadelphia in 1985).
But that reflexive accusation works (especially as antisemitism isn't ever fully and meaningfully addressed, and something that is convenient for a lot of the Israeli establishment to keep inciting, eg Netanyahu's support for Hamas), and people lose standing, income etc.
Saller and Martinez speak on Israel-Gaza at Faculty Senate meeting: He cautioned community members against “drawing conclusions about things that may be reported on, with or without verification” and warned about “the circulation of fake news,” which he said is an important issue for consideration in keeping the University safe.
Saller brought up a Protected Identity Harm report the University received on Wednesday regarding markings made with chalk in White Plaza.
Saller said “an individual affiliated with the University attempted to chalk phrases on the ground pointing toward students participating in the sit-in for Palestine.”
According to Saller, the phrases “included deeply offensive language about violence toward Jewish people.” He said that although the photo was initially assumed to be antisemitic in nature, this was later disputed.
“The chalking was created by a Jewish community member who was trying to use irony and sarcasm to draw negative attention to the pro-Palestinian protests on campus,” Saller said, referencing a statement made by Stanford Hillel. “Within a few minutes of chalking, they regretted what they wrote and erased it with water and actually apologized.”
When I wake up, it's going to be Day 31.
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 AM on November 7, 2023
But that reflexive accusation works (especially as antisemitism isn't ever fully and meaningfully addressed, and something that is convenient for a lot of the Israeli establishment to keep inciting, eg Netanyahu's support for Hamas), and people lose standing, income etc.
Saller and Martinez speak on Israel-Gaza at Faculty Senate meeting: He cautioned community members against “drawing conclusions about things that may be reported on, with or without verification” and warned about “the circulation of fake news,” which he said is an important issue for consideration in keeping the University safe.
Saller brought up a Protected Identity Harm report the University received on Wednesday regarding markings made with chalk in White Plaza.
Saller said “an individual affiliated with the University attempted to chalk phrases on the ground pointing toward students participating in the sit-in for Palestine.”
According to Saller, the phrases “included deeply offensive language about violence toward Jewish people.” He said that although the photo was initially assumed to be antisemitic in nature, this was later disputed.
“The chalking was created by a Jewish community member who was trying to use irony and sarcasm to draw negative attention to the pro-Palestinian protests on campus,” Saller said, referencing a statement made by Stanford Hillel. “Within a few minutes of chalking, they regretted what they wrote and erased it with water and actually apologized.”
When I wake up, it's going to be Day 31.
posted by cendawanita at 9:44 AM on November 7, 2023
Those chalkings were incredibly immature and I know tempers are high (and kids in college are still impulsive kids) but things like that don't help the case you have to constantly make that opposing the assault on gaza has nothing to do with antisemitism. Hate it!
posted by dis_integration at 10:03 AM on November 7, 2023
posted by dis_integration at 10:03 AM on November 7, 2023
'Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei dismissed US calls for Iran to restrain its proxies in Iraq during a meeting with Iraqi Prime Minister Mohammed al Sudani in Tehran on November 6.'
"Khamenei’s call for “political” pressure is part of the Iranian regime’s ongoing effort to cover up its involvement in the Israel-Hamas war. Iranian officials and media have repeatedly framed Iran as a responsible and non-escalatory actor since the start of the war. This narrative ignores the fact that Iran has already facilitated the expansion of the war to Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria by directing and encouraging its proxy and partner militias in these countries to attack US and Israeli targets."
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 AM on November 7, 2023
"Khamenei’s call for “political” pressure is part of the Iranian regime’s ongoing effort to cover up its involvement in the Israel-Hamas war. Iranian officials and media have repeatedly framed Iran as a responsible and non-escalatory actor since the start of the war. This narrative ignores the fact that Iran has already facilitated the expansion of the war to Lebanon, Iraq, and Syria by directing and encouraging its proxy and partner militias in these countries to attack US and Israeli targets."
posted by clavdivs at 11:04 AM on November 7, 2023
other is not (that Israel is killing thousands of Palestinians, depriving them of food and water, destroying their homes and should stop). Every bomb that Israel drops today is clearly moving further away from whatever that lasting peace might look like (unless you believe the lasting peace looks like ethnic cleansing).
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years. And of course then you go back to Hamas to try to get a deal, they’ll have their list of reasons for clinging to violent struggle against Israel and why it is Israeli provocations — the settlements assassinations, sanctions and the blockade necessitate the bombing of Israel with rockets.
Suddenly it isn’t so simple.
posted by interogative mood at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years. And of course then you go back to Hamas to try to get a deal, they’ll have their list of reasons for clinging to violent struggle against Israel and why it is Israeli provocations — the settlements assassinations, sanctions and the blockade necessitate the bombing of Israel with rockets.
Suddenly it isn’t so simple.
posted by interogative mood at 11:48 AM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Look. People do not agree with you that Israel has been forced, kicking and screaming, to murder thousands of Palestinians in a month. We know that you think Israel is somehow bound to do this, but it is in fact simple to say they should make an effort to commit fewer crimes against humanity.
I'm not the person you're mad at, but sure, I'll take the bait and say that absolutely yes, Israel was forced into this by an exceptionally brutal attack on Oct. 7. It was an existential attack and they are responding like most any other developed country would to an attack of that scale.
They didn't have to bomb this intensively, and I think it is both foolish and morally wrong to have done so, but even a more restrained military campaign in a situation where Hamas is deliberately located amongst and behind civilians is going to cause a lot of civilian casualties.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm not the person you're mad at, but sure, I'll take the bait and say that absolutely yes, Israel was forced into this by an exceptionally brutal attack on Oct. 7. It was an existential attack and they are responding like most any other developed country would to an attack of that scale.
They didn't have to bomb this intensively, and I think it is both foolish and morally wrong to have done so, but even a more restrained military campaign in a situation where Hamas is deliberately located amongst and behind civilians is going to cause a lot of civilian casualties.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm responding to a long line of comments that imply, somehow, that this truly is all of Palestine's fault, and any suffering is something they - not Hamas - have brought on themselves, and which assumes that everything Israel does is both legitimate and justified.
a) "They don't have to bomb that intensively, and it is morally wrong to have done so" is in fact a simple position.
b) The idea that it's somehow *wrong* to say that Israel should restrain themselves - that they were forced to do this, that they have no control over civilian deaths, that they're doing nothing at all rooted in Islamophobia or dehumanization - would also mean that it was somehow wrong to protest the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. If "it's how other powerful states would behave" is used as a justification, what exactly is being justified?
posted by sagc at 12:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
a) "They don't have to bomb that intensively, and it is morally wrong to have done so" is in fact a simple position.
b) The idea that it's somehow *wrong* to say that Israel should restrain themselves - that they were forced to do this, that they have no control over civilian deaths, that they're doing nothing at all rooted in Islamophobia or dehumanization - would also mean that it was somehow wrong to protest the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. If "it's how other powerful states would behave" is used as a justification, what exactly is being justified?
posted by sagc at 12:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Times of Israel analysis today of the "nuclear strike" aftermath: Already battling for political survival, Netanyahu is not restraining his coalition
In recent polls, 70 to 80 percent of Israelis said they believe Netanyahu should resign after the war. Opposition party heads Avigdor Liberman and Merav Michaeli on Monday said that he should quit now.
And Ha'aretz is really going all-in on "the problem is Netanyahu and the far-right shitheads in his government" (loosely paraphrasing) this week, in ways that would have the U.S. right screaming if someone at the NYT or WaPo said it:
Lead editorial yesterday: Fire Israel's Far Right
[Netanyahu] is the one who lent legitimacy to political alliances with admirers of Rabbi Meir Kahane, the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein and the murderer of the Dawabsheh family. Under his leadership, the settlers have begun setting their sights on the West Bank’s Area B, which under the Oslo Accords is under Israeli security control and Palestinian civilian control. And the settlers’ radical “hilltop youth” have moved from being intelligence targets of the Shin Bet security service to serving as ministers, Knesset members, aides and advisers.
Lead editorial today: Just Leave, Netanyahu
On Sunday, it was reported that Netanyahu believes that the calls earlier this year for military reservists to refuse to serve should be investigated as a possible factor in the decision of the head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar, to launch the terrorist attack on October 7...
And as in a standard ritual, once again it was the head of the National Unity Party, Minister Benny Gantz, who called on Netanyahu to retract his remark (“Dodging responsibility and slinging mud during war is an injury to the country,” he tweeted. “The prime minister must retract his words clearly and unambiguously”); and again Netanyahu “retracted” and tweeted: “Hamas started a war against us because it wants to kill us all and not because of any argument within us.” It doesn’t bother him to backtrack. After all, the poison is already in the air and the chain of infection is already at its height...The political establishment must find a way to put an end to Netanyahu’s malignant rule. The price that Israel will pay for his continued reign is too high.
This op-ed from yesterday, ‘My Family’s Blood Is on Netanyahu's Hands’, is also outraged at the attack on reservists for which Netanyahu barely apologized, and quotes the relative of multiple victims on 10/7, including 3 young grandchildren:
Speaking in immense pain, the bereaved father, Gadi Kedem, said: “I blame Netanyahu for the greatest disaster in the history of the state, the blood of my family is on his hands.” Kedem is right. The blood of the 1,400 people who were slain and murdered in the October 7 Hamas attack is on Netanyahu’s hands. The most despicable man in the history of the Jewish people must be ousted, immediately.
Of course, Ha'aretz has also been running opinion pieces like There Will Never Be a Better Time for Israel to Strike in Iran, so you know, there's also that. But the calls in Israel for Netanyahu to go are loud and persistent, if not growing.
posted by mediareport at 12:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
In recent polls, 70 to 80 percent of Israelis said they believe Netanyahu should resign after the war. Opposition party heads Avigdor Liberman and Merav Michaeli on Monday said that he should quit now.
And Ha'aretz is really going all-in on "the problem is Netanyahu and the far-right shitheads in his government" (loosely paraphrasing) this week, in ways that would have the U.S. right screaming if someone at the NYT or WaPo said it:
Lead editorial yesterday: Fire Israel's Far Right
[Netanyahu] is the one who lent legitimacy to political alliances with admirers of Rabbi Meir Kahane, the mass murderer Baruch Goldstein and the murderer of the Dawabsheh family. Under his leadership, the settlers have begun setting their sights on the West Bank’s Area B, which under the Oslo Accords is under Israeli security control and Palestinian civilian control. And the settlers’ radical “hilltop youth” have moved from being intelligence targets of the Shin Bet security service to serving as ministers, Knesset members, aides and advisers.
Lead editorial today: Just Leave, Netanyahu
On Sunday, it was reported that Netanyahu believes that the calls earlier this year for military reservists to refuse to serve should be investigated as a possible factor in the decision of the head of Hamas in the Gaza Strip, Yahya Sinwar, to launch the terrorist attack on October 7...
And as in a standard ritual, once again it was the head of the National Unity Party, Minister Benny Gantz, who called on Netanyahu to retract his remark (“Dodging responsibility and slinging mud during war is an injury to the country,” he tweeted. “The prime minister must retract his words clearly and unambiguously”); and again Netanyahu “retracted” and tweeted: “Hamas started a war against us because it wants to kill us all and not because of any argument within us.” It doesn’t bother him to backtrack. After all, the poison is already in the air and the chain of infection is already at its height...The political establishment must find a way to put an end to Netanyahu’s malignant rule. The price that Israel will pay for his continued reign is too high.
This op-ed from yesterday, ‘My Family’s Blood Is on Netanyahu's Hands’, is also outraged at the attack on reservists for which Netanyahu barely apologized, and quotes the relative of multiple victims on 10/7, including 3 young grandchildren:
Speaking in immense pain, the bereaved father, Gadi Kedem, said: “I blame Netanyahu for the greatest disaster in the history of the state, the blood of my family is on his hands.” Kedem is right. The blood of the 1,400 people who were slain and murdered in the October 7 Hamas attack is on Netanyahu’s hands. The most despicable man in the history of the Jewish people must be ousted, immediately.
Of course, Ha'aretz has also been running opinion pieces like There Will Never Be a Better Time for Israel to Strike in Iran, so you know, there's also that. But the calls in Israel for Netanyahu to go are loud and persistent, if not growing.
posted by mediareport at 12:18 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Simple if you totally ignore the unceasing bombardment of Israeli civilians by Hamas rockets and their numerous ceasefire violations over the last 15 years
1) Gaza has been under seige since 2006;
2) the occupation is illegal;
3) people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Again, the "unceasing bombardment" isn't happening in a vacuum; it's a response to Israel's ongoing project of settlement and ethnic cleansing. "It's complicated" is just a way to take the focus off the fact that everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
1) Gaza has been under seige since 2006;
2) the occupation is illegal;
3) people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Again, the "unceasing bombardment" isn't happening in a vacuum; it's a response to Israel's ongoing project of settlement and ethnic cleansing. "It's complicated" is just a way to take the focus off the fact that everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:19 PM on November 7, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is hate speech, the same old libel coming out of new mouths that swallow anti-Jew propaganda unquestioningly.
Is it? I understand that anti-semitism, like all bigotries, does a lot of its work through dog whistles and historical tropes and self-referential themes. If that's what you see going on here, it would help a lot of us in the conversation to have links or elaboration of what you're referring to.
Lots of Americans and Canadians in this thread--we're all click-clacking away from nation states founded on ethnic cleansing. And so the claim that acknowledgment of the Nakba and the ongoing policy (and currently military operations) of the Israeli government is hate speech, it's going to have a hard time landing for some of us, because our intuition is that, indeed, states come into existence through ethnic cleansing.
Pseudonymous Cognomen said,". . . everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing." This statement references fairly mainstream positions, and reflects an embrace of judgments made by entities ranging from the UN to Nelson Mandela to Jimmy Carter to Jewish Voices for Peace, so putting that statement in the same bucket as like, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or something is a stretch for a lot of us. Some context from what you're saying would help us evaluate your statement and think about it for ourselves.
posted by kensington314 at 12:59 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Is it? I understand that anti-semitism, like all bigotries, does a lot of its work through dog whistles and historical tropes and self-referential themes. If that's what you see going on here, it would help a lot of us in the conversation to have links or elaboration of what you're referring to.
Lots of Americans and Canadians in this thread--we're all click-clacking away from nation states founded on ethnic cleansing. And so the claim that acknowledgment of the Nakba and the ongoing policy (and currently military operations) of the Israeli government is hate speech, it's going to have a hard time landing for some of us, because our intuition is that, indeed, states come into existence through ethnic cleansing.
Pseudonymous Cognomen said,". . . everything is the direct result of Israel's illegal occupation, ongoing apartheid, and the fact that it's a state founded on ethnic cleansing." This statement references fairly mainstream positions, and reflects an embrace of judgments made by entities ranging from the UN to Nelson Mandela to Jimmy Carter to Jewish Voices for Peace, so putting that statement in the same bucket as like, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion or something is a stretch for a lot of us. Some context from what you're saying would help us evaluate your statement and think about it for ourselves.
posted by kensington314 at 12:59 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
This is hate speech, the same old libel coming out of new mouths that swallow anti-Jew propaganda unquestioningly.
What exactly do you think the Nakba was? A polite request that Palestinians leave their land that they just went along with?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:03 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
What exactly do you think the Nakba was? A polite request that Palestinians leave their land that they just went along with?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:03 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
This is hate speech
Only if you believe calling things by their proper names is hate speech.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
Only if you believe calling things by their proper names is hate speech.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is hate speech
Zionists from the beginning, through Ben Gurion and on to Netanyahu have professed a desire to remove Arabs from the land. There are some semantic questions as to whether “ethnic cleansing” is the right word here, but calling this hate speech stretches that term to the point of meaninglessness.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
Zionists from the beginning, through Ben Gurion and on to Netanyahu have professed a desire to remove Arabs from the land. There are some semantic questions as to whether “ethnic cleansing” is the right word here, but calling this hate speech stretches that term to the point of meaninglessness.
Criticism of Israel is not antisemitic.
posted by wemayfreeze at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
We have tried to move south to the so-called safety zone. In a convoy, we drove along the coastal road, waving white flags. The road was lined with many dead bodies and burned-out vehicles. After just five minutes on the road, we came under fire.I Live in Gaza. Israel’s Horrific Bombing Campaign Is Like Nothing I’ve Ever Seen Before.
Israel’s bombings are targeting bakeries, which are the main source of food for people here. Many of the supermarkets, restaurants, and bakeries rely on solar panels, which are also being targeted and destroyed. [...]
We also are relying on Western countries to support the norms that they established after World War II to protect civilians. Their complicity in creating a culture of impunity for Israel is shameful. [...]
It feels like the Israeli strategy is to push 2.4 million of us out of Gaza and into Sinai.
posted by ssg at 1:08 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Please avoid turning this thread into a 1-on-1 discussion. Also, if you think something posted in this (or any other) thread is hate speech please contact us.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2023
posted by loup (staff) at 1:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Ha ha all right then. I guess you win! If I seem cranky it's because my sister called me from California this morning crying because an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters and now she wonders if the same will happen to her.
But I'm sure that the anti-Israel rhetoric had nothing to do with that! Because "anti-Israel does not equal anti-Jew", right? And being anti-Israel definitely doesn't spill over and dovetail into Jew hatred, right?
Shout out to interrogative mood and other commenters who have mightily tried to explain things with much greater patience and been rebuffed. It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist. And I'm done, I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I'm sure that the anti-Israel rhetoric had nothing to do with that! Because "anti-Israel does not equal anti-Jew", right? And being anti-Israel definitely doesn't spill over and dovetail into Jew hatred, right?
Shout out to interrogative mood and other commenters who have mightily tried to explain things with much greater patience and been rebuffed. It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist. And I'm done, I'm taking this thread out of my Recent Activity.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
If anyone feels kind and would like to try to explain, I'd be interested in knowing why it is antisemitic to say that Israel's founding involved ethnic cleansing?
I get why that's not NICE to say, but I'm not sure why it's antisemitic to say. And from my POV it would appear to be a true statement. Obviously truth can be stated in ways that are offensive, bigoted, or otherwise wrong.
Can someone please tell me where the antisemitism enters? I've broken it down so hopefully we can identify the specific point that is antisemitic.
I swear I'm not sealioning here. Nor JAQing off.
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
Obviously no one has any obligation to educate me, but if anyone feels willing to do so I'd appreciate it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
I get why that's not NICE to say, but I'm not sure why it's antisemitic to say. And from my POV it would appear to be a true statement. Obviously truth can be stated in ways that are offensive, bigoted, or otherwise wrong.
Can someone please tell me where the antisemitism enters? I've broken it down so hopefully we can identify the specific point that is antisemitic.
- A person believes it is true that from the first few centuries of the diaspora until around 1940 Jews were a minority in Israel
- A person believes it is true that following WWII a large numebr of Jews who had not previously lived in Israel moved to Israel
- A person believes that following a period of violence, the Jewish population succeeded in evicting a very large number of Palestinian people who had previously lived in Israel from their homes and expelling them from Israel
- People call the expulsion of Palestinian people from their homes and Israel "ethnic cleansing".
- People state that Israel was founded on ethnic cleansing
- People state that the government of Israel has continued a project of ethnic cleansing since then, with varying degrees of intensity.
I swear I'm not sealioning here. Nor JAQing off.
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
Obviously no one has any obligation to educate me, but if anyone feels willing to do so I'd appreciate it.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters
This happened not too far from me; there was an altercation of some kind, he fell or was pushed and struck his head on the pavement. I find this appalling and don't think there's any call for anyone on either side to escalate what ought to be peaceful demonstrations into physical aggression and confrontation, nor do I think that antisemitism has any place in such protests and demonstrations. However given the circumstances of what happened, framing it as "was killed by pro-Palestinian protesters" is questionable.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:50 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
This happened not too far from me; there was an altercation of some kind, he fell or was pushed and struck his head on the pavement. I find this appalling and don't think there's any call for anyone on either side to escalate what ought to be peaceful demonstrations into physical aggression and confrontation, nor do I think that antisemitism has any place in such protests and demonstrations. However given the circumstances of what happened, framing it as "was killed by pro-Palestinian protesters" is questionable.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:50 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
I am genuinely, 100%, legit, confused as to what in any of those statements is antisemitic.
It's that Simpsons gag about Fox News: Not Racist but #1 with Racists.
The ugly truth is that there is currently intersectionality between anticolonialists and antisemites and for me, being someone who's very anticolonial, that's personally fucking terrifying. Everything I read, everything I process, everything about what people write about the history of the region I need to run triple filtered through my "is this antisemitic in any form?" and "is this dehumanizing a group?" and a bunch of other information filters and context and nuance because I know there are factions out there who will happily use this fucked up situation for their own evil ends.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
It's that Simpsons gag about Fox News: Not Racist but #1 with Racists.
The ugly truth is that there is currently intersectionality between anticolonialists and antisemites and for me, being someone who's very anticolonial, that's personally fucking terrifying. Everything I read, everything I process, everything about what people write about the history of the region I need to run triple filtered through my "is this antisemitic in any form?" and "is this dehumanizing a group?" and a bunch of other information filters and context and nuance because I know there are factions out there who will happily use this fucked up situation for their own evil ends.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:52 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
The “Zionism is racism, no it isn’t you antisemite” argument has been ongoing for a long time. If you want to understand or read the Wikipedia article on UN resolution 3379 and its repeal. Then you can read this article by the American Jewish Committee to understand why many Jewish people see it that way. Or this article from the Anti-Defamation League. Peter Beinart provides a summary of the counter points in this article in the Guardian.
I find the attacks on Zionism to be counterproductive to good discussions as whatever the intent they are heard as an attack on the identity of many Jewish Israelis and supporters of Israel and this comes across as antisemitic.
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination. That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t also have the right to self determination. There is a long history of Jewish Israelis dismissing Palestinians as Arabs and Palestinians dismissing Israelis as “Jews” and a lot of time was wasted and continues to be wasted in my opinion by people who seem to think the other side should leave and give it all to their side.
posted by interogative mood at 2:18 PM on November 7, 2023
I find the attacks on Zionism to be counterproductive to good discussions as whatever the intent they are heard as an attack on the identity of many Jewish Israelis and supporters of Israel and this comes across as antisemitic.
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination. That doesn’t mean Palestinians don’t also have the right to self determination. There is a long history of Jewish Israelis dismissing Palestinians as Arabs and Palestinians dismissing Israelis as “Jews” and a lot of time was wasted and continues to be wasted in my opinion by people who seem to think the other side should leave and give it all to their side.
posted by interogative mood at 2:18 PM on November 7, 2023
The right to self determination is not the same as the right to kick people off their land. This distinction applies to all peoples.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:21 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:21 PM on November 7, 2023 [12 favorites]
If only there were a word for when you hold an entire group of people responsible for the actions of a few.
posted by Jarcat at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
I choice a ancient place that tells me alot about occupation. Rachel's Tomb.
Biblical, a shrine for many. A long read but this piece from 2015 is telling.
"Perhaps Rachel’s Tomb is too much of an in? I think about my friends on the other side of the wall, at Aida refugee camp, who were deported by Israel in 1948 from villages surrounding Bet-Shemesh. I can’t find an easy answer to this paradox. I’m angry at us, at myself, and I’m dying to get the hell out of there."
So Palestinians who throw rocks and fire bomb Rachel's Tomb are they attacking the concept of sacred/archeological places
or an Israeli occupation that is illegal.
I asked in the other thread do tje Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves.
and I ask in a similar vein, do the Israeli people have a right to defend themselves.
The main point of contention is why and when and how often to what extent.
The its complicated situation to me seems rather based in time as one would have to be almost a scholar be able to have a firm grasp of this situation historically. so saying it's complex means you need a lot of time to study the situation. so if time is a factor then it sort of gave itself away cuz time is a factor time, there, its everything, now, each second. retrospective analysis only fuels a conflicts inherent justifications for both sides.
Israel declared war on Hamas and de facto the Palestinian people and Iran.
miracle political play would have a new Israeli cabinet and broker a deal to have Hamas surrender control of the Gaza strip to anyone but themselves and an exit plan for them to Iran wherever. The factor im sure of is no peace with Hamas, that's not on me but it seems to be the reality.
posted by clavdivs at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023
Biblical, a shrine for many. A long read but this piece from 2015 is telling.
"Perhaps Rachel’s Tomb is too much of an in? I think about my friends on the other side of the wall, at Aida refugee camp, who were deported by Israel in 1948 from villages surrounding Bet-Shemesh. I can’t find an easy answer to this paradox. I’m angry at us, at myself, and I’m dying to get the hell out of there."
So Palestinians who throw rocks and fire bomb Rachel's Tomb are they attacking the concept of sacred/archeological places
or an Israeli occupation that is illegal.
I asked in the other thread do tje Palestinian people have a right to defend themselves.
and I ask in a similar vein, do the Israeli people have a right to defend themselves.
The main point of contention is why and when and how often to what extent.
The its complicated situation to me seems rather based in time as one would have to be almost a scholar be able to have a firm grasp of this situation historically. so saying it's complex means you need a lot of time to study the situation. so if time is a factor then it sort of gave itself away cuz time is a factor time, there, its everything, now, each second. retrospective analysis only fuels a conflicts inherent justifications for both sides.
Israel declared war on Hamas and de facto the Palestinian people and Iran.
miracle political play would have a new Israeli cabinet and broker a deal to have Hamas surrender control of the Gaza strip to anyone but themselves and an exit plan for them to Iran wherever. The factor im sure of is no peace with Hamas, that's not on me but it seems to be the reality.
posted by clavdivs at 2:31 PM on November 7, 2023
Ultimately there are 7 million+ Jewish people in Israel. They are the dominant culture of the country, most of them were born in Israel and they have the right to self determination.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:37 PM on November 7, 2023 [9 favorites]
an elderly Jewish man was killed in her neighborhood by pro-Palestinian protesters
That is quite a description, given how little is currently known about the undeniably tragic fall and later death, according to the article the words themselves link:
In fact, Fryhoff said, the chief of police had driven through the scene about 15 minutes before the altercation and noticed "no indication of impending violence." Fryhoff said the sheriff's office got multiple calls of an assault and an unconscious male bleeding around 3:20 p.m. local time. Responders arrived within minutes to find Kessler conscious and responsive, but bleeding from the head and mouth. Medical personnel provided aid at the scene and transported him to a nearby hospital, which listed him in critical condition. He was conscious when deputies contacted him at the hospital around 4 p.m.
Young said Kessler's condition deteriorated overnight, and he was pronounced dead just after 1 a.m. on Monday. Law enforcement launched an investigation into his death some two hours later, after being notified by the hospital...Fryhoff said the suspect was one of the people who called 911 for Kessler, and willingly stayed at the scene afterwards to answer officers' questions.
Let's what any video turns up.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
That is quite a description, given how little is currently known about the undeniably tragic fall and later death, according to the article the words themselves link:
In fact, Fryhoff said, the chief of police had driven through the scene about 15 minutes before the altercation and noticed "no indication of impending violence." Fryhoff said the sheriff's office got multiple calls of an assault and an unconscious male bleeding around 3:20 p.m. local time. Responders arrived within minutes to find Kessler conscious and responsive, but bleeding from the head and mouth. Medical personnel provided aid at the scene and transported him to a nearby hospital, which listed him in critical condition. He was conscious when deputies contacted him at the hospital around 4 p.m.
Young said Kessler's condition deteriorated overnight, and he was pronounced dead just after 1 a.m. on Monday. Law enforcement launched an investigation into his death some two hours later, after being notified by the hospital...Fryhoff said the suspect was one of the people who called 911 for Kessler, and willingly stayed at the scene afterwards to answer officers' questions.
Let's what any video turns up.
posted by mediareport at 2:54 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
The right to self determination is not the same as the right to kick people off their land. This distinction applies to all peoples.
Yes. It applies to the settlers, Netanyahu and to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
I thought I was pretty clear in my posts that Palestinians also have a right to self determination and that the settlements and the behavior of settlers has been a serious problem.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 7, 2023
Yes. It applies to the settlers, Netanyahu and to Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Which doesn't include building illegal settlements in occupied territory in contravention of international law. Or maintaining a system of effective apartheid in those occupied territories, with settlers protected by the IDF and given impunity for acts of violence against Palestinians.
I thought I was pretty clear in my posts that Palestinians also have a right to self determination and that the settlements and the behavior of settlers has been a serious problem.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 7, 2023
Mod note: Comment removed. Let's avoid the argument of "X side has been suffering for longer than Y side" as it just spirals out to a derail.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 3:13 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's been eye-opening to read commenters again and again declaring that the nation of my father's birth has no right to exist.
There is a difference between a flat "Israel has no right to exist" and naked horror over the current state of that nation. And by "current," many do not mean the last three weeks, but rather the last few decades.
A better Israel -- a non-apartheid Israel -- is possible, at least in theory, over time. I don't know how to convince Israelis to decide that regime change at home is better than what's happening now. I don't know how to thread the needle of warring hardliner governments, or how to come up with even a temporary solution that large numbers on both sides of the conflict could live with.
But influential nations of the world declaring loud disapproval of bombing civilian areas, much less that Israel's heavily-favored-nation status amongst them is in jeopardy should they continue doing that, is where it ought to start.
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on November 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
There is a difference between a flat "Israel has no right to exist" and naked horror over the current state of that nation. And by "current," many do not mean the last three weeks, but rather the last few decades.
A better Israel -- a non-apartheid Israel -- is possible, at least in theory, over time. I don't know how to convince Israelis to decide that regime change at home is better than what's happening now. I don't know how to thread the needle of warring hardliner governments, or how to come up with even a temporary solution that large numbers on both sides of the conflict could live with.
But influential nations of the world declaring loud disapproval of bombing civilian areas, much less that Israel's heavily-favored-nation status amongst them is in jeopardy should they continue doing that, is where it ought to start.
posted by delfin at 3:15 PM on November 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
The April 25th-May 13 campaign to take control of Jaffa was largely conducted by the Irgun, not the Haganah and resulted in one of the first major waves of refugees with about 4000 Arabs left in the city when it ended. It was used as a justification for the Arabs states to formally enter the war, although they had previously rejected the partition plan and sent troops to fight under the Arab Liberation Army. The British had tried to defend Jaffa and stop the fighting up until they left on April 30th. In the 5 months preceding the attack over 1000 residents of Tel Aviv had been killed by sniper fire and attacks from Jaffa.
Irgun’s doctrine of revisionist Zionism rejected the partition plan and there was a near civil war between them and the IDF resulting in the Altalena Affair in June of 1948 after which they were brought under the IDF and more pragmatic Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion came to dominate politics. Former Irgun members would enter the mainstream of Israeli politics in the 1970s under Menacham Begin and the Likkud party.
posted by interogative mood at 3:30 PM on November 7, 2023
Irgun’s doctrine of revisionist Zionism rejected the partition plan and there was a near civil war between them and the IDF resulting in the Altalena Affair in June of 1948 after which they were brought under the IDF and more pragmatic Israeli leaders like Ben Gurion came to dominate politics. Former Irgun members would enter the mainstream of Israeli politics in the 1970s under Menacham Begin and the Likkud party.
posted by interogative mood at 3:30 PM on November 7, 2023
interogative mood, I don't want to run afoul of engaging in "1 on 1" discussions, but i am curious . . . You have indicated that you have some long-term involvement with the Israel/Palestine situation. Would it be inappropriate of me to ask what, generally speaking, that involvement is? I'm sincerely trying to figure out how to interpret some of the things you post, and I feel like there's some context missing.
Mods, apologies if this oversteps . . .
posted by pt68 at 3:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mods, apologies if this oversteps . . .
posted by pt68 at 3:44 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Has anyone linked directly to a Hamas site as a source? I dont recall seeing that but if so, I'd agree they shouldn't do that
Hamas is the government of Gaza, all organizations are under their direct control. Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza. They aren't a democratic government with independent institutions. This isn't in dispute.
posted by xdvesper at 4:10 PM on November 7, 2023
Hamas is the government of Gaza, all organizations are under their direct control. Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza. They aren't a democratic government with independent institutions. This isn't in dispute.
posted by xdvesper at 4:10 PM on November 7, 2023
Let's what any video turns up.
Inconclusive, contradictory reports. FBI has been notified which is probably procedure. Sad though.
But this isn't inconclusive.
no one was hurt though
posted by clavdivs at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Inconclusive, contradictory reports. FBI has been notified which is probably procedure. Sad though.
But this isn't inconclusive.
no one was hurt though
posted by clavdivs at 4:24 PM on November 7, 2023
Hamas is the only source of casualty figures in Gaza.
We've been over this already; you're ignoring what has gone before in this conversation. Studies by the U.N. and others have found no major discrepancies in the past between Hamas casualty figures in the heat of battle and those estimated by others after the fact:
Historically, the Gaza Health Ministry’s figures have been found largely accurate. News organizations, human rights groups, and international governments and bodies (including the United Nations) cite them in the moment; and human rights groups that have worked to verify the ministry’s data in previous conflicts have found it generally reliable...In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points...
Omar Shakir of Human Rights Watch, which has been monitoring human rights abuses in Gaza for three decades, told the Guardian the group has “generally found the data that comes out of the ministry of health to be reliable.”
More:
The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry's counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel's tallies.
Those are recent links, and similar links have been discussed above. There are criticisms of the Hamas counts at both links, but the overall reliability of Hamas casualty figures has been considered solid by many observers for years. It's difficult to understand what you're doing in these threads sometimes; is it some sort of war of attrition? I dunno, but if you have new information, feel free to share.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
We've been over this already; you're ignoring what has gone before in this conversation. Studies by the U.N. and others have found no major discrepancies in the past between Hamas casualty figures in the heat of battle and those estimated by others after the fact:
Historically, the Gaza Health Ministry’s figures have been found largely accurate. News organizations, human rights groups, and international governments and bodies (including the United Nations) cite them in the moment; and human rights groups that have worked to verify the ministry’s data in previous conflicts have found it generally reliable...In previous conflicts, for instance, the UN has found Gazan health officials’ toll accurate within 4 percentage points...
Omar Shakir of Human Rights Watch, which has been monitoring human rights abuses in Gaza for three decades, told the Guardian the group has “generally found the data that comes out of the ministry of health to be reliable.”
More:
The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry's counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel's tallies.
Those are recent links, and similar links have been discussed above. There are criticisms of the Hamas counts at both links, but the overall reliability of Hamas casualty figures has been considered solid by many observers for years. It's difficult to understand what you're doing in these threads sometimes; is it some sort of war of attrition? I dunno, but if you have new information, feel free to share.
posted by mediareport at 4:41 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Mediareport, if you read the original post, I didn't advocate that we should automatically distrust what Hamas says. I'm saying that we would take what Hamas says at face value, just like we would take what Israel or IDF says at face value, and if they provide video and photo evidence, that's even better. Some other poster was trying to police what evidence was / was not allowed in the discourse.
By this standard, all parties have made statements which some posters disagree with:
Hamas says they didn't kill civilians BBC Interview.
Israeli Ambassador says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza
The US still doesn't believe the Gaza Ministry of Health casualty figures.
All statements and evidence needs to be judged on its merits, no one is given a free pass. If the Israel government or military posts some images and video of real-time operations in Gaza, I find that no more or less acceptable than real-time images from Hamas about the impact of bomb strikes, and in fact, should be encouraged - we want transparency and verifiability from all parties.
posted by xdvesper at 4:50 PM on November 7, 2023
By this standard, all parties have made statements which some posters disagree with:
Hamas says they didn't kill civilians BBC Interview.
Israeli Ambassador says there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza
The US still doesn't believe the Gaza Ministry of Health casualty figures.
All statements and evidence needs to be judged on its merits, no one is given a free pass. If the Israel government or military posts some images and video of real-time operations in Gaza, I find that no more or less acceptable than real-time images from Hamas about the impact of bomb strikes, and in fact, should be encouraged - we want transparency and verifiability from all parties.
posted by xdvesper at 4:50 PM on November 7, 2023
I haven't seen much or any passing mention on what's happening with Rashida Tlaib (and truthfully being outsider I don't fully follow the technicalities on what's being mobilized against her). In any case, Ryan Grim:
Jamie Raskin is on the House floor describing how unusual it would be in congressional history to censure a member of Congress for their speech.
Stepping back, it is indeed incredible to move a censure vote for speech, no matter the speech.
That it's happening to the only Palestinian member of Congress while Gaza is being flattened makes it that much more extraordinary. What a dark moment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Jamie Raskin is on the House floor describing how unusual it would be in congressional history to censure a member of Congress for their speech.
Stepping back, it is indeed incredible to move a censure vote for speech, no matter the speech.
That it's happening to the only Palestinian member of Congress while Gaza is being flattened makes it that much more extraordinary. What a dark moment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:57 PM on November 7, 2023 [14 favorites]
Voice of America video: Israel's construction industry is asking the government to let it hire 100,000 migrant workers from India to fix its severe labor shortage after the 90,000 Palestinian workers it had been using all suddenly lost their work permits.
The president of the Israeli Builders Association says he "no longer sees a future" for Palestinian workers in Israel.
More:
Earlier this year in May, the Indian government entered into a bilateral agreement with Israel to facilitate the immigration of 42,000 Indian workers....Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks. India had last month launched Operation Ajay to facilitate the return of Indian citizens from Israel, a mass evacuation which has not yet been completed.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
The president of the Israeli Builders Association says he "no longer sees a future" for Palestinian workers in Israel.
More:
Earlier this year in May, the Indian government entered into a bilateral agreement with Israel to facilitate the immigration of 42,000 Indian workers....Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks. India had last month launched Operation Ajay to facilitate the return of Indian citizens from Israel, a mass evacuation which has not yet been completed.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 PM on November 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don’t want to get into too many recent details but, since this keeps coming up. I first went to Israel/ Palestine at 17 as part of a program where I spent a few weeks with Palestinian and Israeli teens. This lead me to pursue a degree in Middle Eastern Studies. I made additional trips in college including a summer during the election of Rabin where I was based out of East Jerusalem.
I did not pursue the professional opportunities that were opened to me from these experiences. I was a bit depressed and burned out by some of the things I saw and experienced before. You only run for your life from actual gunfire a few times before your own sense of mortality sinks in. I still have nightmares about the time I saw a Palestinian kid get shot near manger square in Bethlehem, got tear gassed during the riot that followed, and somehow my little group managed to get refuge from the Sisters at their convent near the Milk Grotto while we waited it for stuff to calm down and get a taxi back to Jerusalem. There are other memories of running for a bomb shelter while visiting a kibbutz in northern Israel as air raid sirens sounded. Anyway 9/11 happened and it was just horrible and I abandoned any ideas of a career path in relief and development or diplomacy for the siren song of the dot com tech world.
The early 2000s technology startup world was a lot safer, exciting and less grim. So I rebuilt my life around coding and computers. I never fully left my Middle East studies fascination behind. I make the occasional visit to the region every few years with groups that are working for peace and I send them regular donations. I keep in touch with a people I regard as friends made along the way. I read books and articles. My Arabic and Hebrew is now quite rusty though and the frequency of those visits has declined. The last month has been horrible; but I’m starting to get some updates from friends I’ve made over the years.
As I’ve come to know more Israelis and Palestinians my views have become much more moderate. I have worked on listening to people and trying to understand their perspectives and history under this conflict. Maybe thats the wrong approach but that’s where I’ve ended up.
posted by interogative mood at 6:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [28 favorites]
I did not pursue the professional opportunities that were opened to me from these experiences. I was a bit depressed and burned out by some of the things I saw and experienced before. You only run for your life from actual gunfire a few times before your own sense of mortality sinks in. I still have nightmares about the time I saw a Palestinian kid get shot near manger square in Bethlehem, got tear gassed during the riot that followed, and somehow my little group managed to get refuge from the Sisters at their convent near the Milk Grotto while we waited it for stuff to calm down and get a taxi back to Jerusalem. There are other memories of running for a bomb shelter while visiting a kibbutz in northern Israel as air raid sirens sounded. Anyway 9/11 happened and it was just horrible and I abandoned any ideas of a career path in relief and development or diplomacy for the siren song of the dot com tech world.
The early 2000s technology startup world was a lot safer, exciting and less grim. So I rebuilt my life around coding and computers. I never fully left my Middle East studies fascination behind. I make the occasional visit to the region every few years with groups that are working for peace and I send them regular donations. I keep in touch with a people I regard as friends made along the way. I read books and articles. My Arabic and Hebrew is now quite rusty though and the frequency of those visits has declined. The last month has been horrible; but I’m starting to get some updates from friends I’ve made over the years.
As I’ve come to know more Israelis and Palestinians my views have become much more moderate. I have worked on listening to people and trying to understand their perspectives and history under this conflict. Maybe thats the wrong approach but that’s where I’ve ended up.
posted by interogative mood at 6:20 PM on November 7, 2023 [28 favorites]
Erin Conroy quoting Milan Kundera: "The first step in liquidating a people...erase its memory. Destroy its books, its culture, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history. Before long the nation will begin to forget what it is and what it was. The world around it will forget even faster."
Milan Kundera, The Book of Laughter and Forgetting (1978)
The other thing I don't see shared here is the bombings/destructions of the universities in Gaza. I believe, as of today, none is left standing. I've seen people commenting on the latest death of a Palestinian journalist that this makes it 11 so far (not counting families).
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Milan Kundera, The Book of Laughter and Forgetting (1978)
The other thing I don't see shared here is the bombings/destructions of the universities in Gaza. I believe, as of today, none is left standing. I've seen people commenting on the latest death of a Palestinian journalist that this makes it 11 so far (not counting families).
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 PM on November 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
At least 39 journalists have been killed in the past month, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists (including four Israeli journalists).
posted by ssg at 7:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by ssg at 7:42 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
House censures Tlaib for Israel criticisms
At least from the initial reporting that I read, it was the "river to the sea" part that really tipped the balance on this:
Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the minority leader, said in a statement before the vote that echoing “slogans that are widely understood as calling for the complete destruction of Israel — such as ‘from the river to the sea’ — does not advance progress toward a two-state solution. Instead, it unacceptably risks further polarization, division and incitement to violence.”
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
At least from the initial reporting that I read, it was the "river to the sea" part that really tipped the balance on this:
Representative Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the minority leader, said in a statement before the vote that echoing “slogans that are widely understood as calling for the complete destruction of Israel — such as ‘from the river to the sea’ — does not advance progress toward a two-state solution. Instead, it unacceptably risks further polarization, division and incitement to violence.”
posted by Dip Flash at 8:11 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Collective & individual trauma in Palestine/Israel with Dr. Gabor Maté
This question of anti-Semitism. Yes, there's anti-Semitism in the world, and there will be some anti-Semites who will use the actions of Israel to prove how evil Jews are. There are some people like that, there always have been people like that, but antisemitism has got nothing to do with Jews in the sense that it doesn't originate from anything that Jews do or don't do. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of racism, originates in some sickness of the soul and the mind in the racist. Racism is rising in today's world; if you want to see racism, look what happens to Muslims in Europe right now, in France. You want to see racism, look at anti-Muslim sentiments in North America. There's also rising anti-Semitism in North America, absolutely true. As society is fragmenting, getting more toxic, you're going to see more and more racism. The question is, does criticism of Israel contribute to that? Well, and especially I've been told, apart from the fact that I've been told that I betrayed my own people, well no I didn’t, because I don't identify my own people with the state of Israel. It’s the state of Israel that identifies Jews with its actions, but I don’t.
… But for Gods sakes, when Holocaust survivors, and I'm not the only one, people, there are many, stand up against what's happening in Palestine, against the actions of the Israeli government. When Jews get arrested in New York for protesting the war. When Jews get arrested in Jerusalem for protesting the war. When Amira Hass, when Ilan Pape, when Gideon Levy and other Israelis speak out against the oppression of Palestinians, is that going to increase anti-Semitism? Or will the people see, non-Jews see, that Jews are like everybody else, there's differences of opinion but you can't pin the actions of a government on a whole people. Now which is more likely to support anti-Semitism, Jewish silence, right or wrong, or Jewish speaking out, right or wrong? So this argument that criticizing Israel, especially by Jews, foments anti-Semitism, I mean it's just so illogical it's barely even worth talking about, in my view.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
This question of anti-Semitism. Yes, there's anti-Semitism in the world, and there will be some anti-Semites who will use the actions of Israel to prove how evil Jews are. There are some people like that, there always have been people like that, but antisemitism has got nothing to do with Jews in the sense that it doesn't originate from anything that Jews do or don't do. Anti-Semitism, like all forms of racism, originates in some sickness of the soul and the mind in the racist. Racism is rising in today's world; if you want to see racism, look what happens to Muslims in Europe right now, in France. You want to see racism, look at anti-Muslim sentiments in North America. There's also rising anti-Semitism in North America, absolutely true. As society is fragmenting, getting more toxic, you're going to see more and more racism. The question is, does criticism of Israel contribute to that? Well, and especially I've been told, apart from the fact that I've been told that I betrayed my own people, well no I didn’t, because I don't identify my own people with the state of Israel. It’s the state of Israel that identifies Jews with its actions, but I don’t.
… But for Gods sakes, when Holocaust survivors, and I'm not the only one, people, there are many, stand up against what's happening in Palestine, against the actions of the Israeli government. When Jews get arrested in New York for protesting the war. When Jews get arrested in Jerusalem for protesting the war. When Amira Hass, when Ilan Pape, when Gideon Levy and other Israelis speak out against the oppression of Palestinians, is that going to increase anti-Semitism? Or will the people see, non-Jews see, that Jews are like everybody else, there's differences of opinion but you can't pin the actions of a government on a whole people. Now which is more likely to support anti-Semitism, Jewish silence, right or wrong, or Jewish speaking out, right or wrong? So this argument that criticizing Israel, especially by Jews, foments anti-Semitism, I mean it's just so illogical it's barely even worth talking about, in my view.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 9:14 PM on November 7, 2023 [15 favorites]
Whether the Indian government is still happy for thousands of its citizens to move to Israel remains unclear after the 7 October attacks.
India has indeed come full 180 degrees from its original support for Palestine. India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and Mahatma Gandhi, were strongly opposed to the creation of the Israeli state. India even voted against it at the UN.
Yet within hours of the Oct 7th attack on Israel, Narendra Modi was among the first of the world leaders to respond, condemning the terror attack and pledging to stand in solidarity with Israel - providing full support without a balancing statement that usually follows it. Israel's ambassador took the statement at face value and thanked India for their 100% support.
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
The Guardian: India takes a strong pro-Israel stance under Modi in departure from the past.
Japan Times: India's realism comes of age in response to Israel-Hamas war.
posted by xdvesper at 10:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
India has indeed come full 180 degrees from its original support for Palestine. India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, and Mahatma Gandhi, were strongly opposed to the creation of the Israeli state. India even voted against it at the UN.
Yet within hours of the Oct 7th attack on Israel, Narendra Modi was among the first of the world leaders to respond, condemning the terror attack and pledging to stand in solidarity with Israel - providing full support without a balancing statement that usually follows it. Israel's ambassador took the statement at face value and thanked India for their 100% support.
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
The Guardian: India takes a strong pro-Israel stance under Modi in departure from the past.
Japan Times: India's realism comes of age in response to Israel-Hamas war.
posted by xdvesper at 10:43 PM on November 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The representatives who voted to censure Tlaib are evil.
There's usually gray area in discussions of morality, so I don't often use the word evil, but punishing someone for refusing to go along with the genocide of her friends, relatives, and country is pure evil.
posted by zymil at 1:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
There's usually gray area in discussions of morality, so I don't often use the word evil, but punishing someone for refusing to go along with the genocide of her friends, relatives, and country is pure evil.
posted by zymil at 1:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and has stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
And while we’re on the subject of 9/11s, Gaza has suffered 3 times as many deaths as the US did on 9/11 in the past month, and of course, only has a population of 2 million.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:22 AM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and has stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
And while we’re on the subject of 9/11s, Gaza has suffered 3 times as many deaths as the US did on 9/11 in the past month, and of course, only has a population of 2 million.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:22 AM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
B'Tselem:
"Israel is killing more, and more, and more civilians. More than 10,000 people in Gaza have been killed, over half of them women and children. There cannot be any justification for such a horrific death toll. Entire streets have been reduced to rubble, with people trapped underneath. More than a million people have been turned into refugees, some killed while fleeing, others where they sought shelter from the bombings. Thousands are missing, their fate unknown." Thread here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:33 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
"Israel is killing more, and more, and more civilians. More than 10,000 people in Gaza have been killed, over half of them women and children. There cannot be any justification for such a horrific death toll. Entire streets have been reduced to rubble, with people trapped underneath. More than a million people have been turned into refugees, some killed while fleeing, others where they sought shelter from the bombings. Thousands are missing, their fate unknown." Thread here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:33 AM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
House censures Tlaib for Israel criticisms
When Israel joins forces with neo-Nazi Space Laser Republicans and cynical Dems, anything evil is possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:51 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
When Israel joins forces with neo-Nazi Space Laser Republicans and cynical Dems, anything evil is possible.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:51 AM on November 8, 2023 [8 favorites]
An American nurse who just got out of Gaza describes what she saws - interview with Anderson Cooper on CNN
Palestinian children in Gaza hold press conference pleading for protection. - Al-Jazeera
posted by toastyk at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Palestinian children in Gaza hold press conference pleading for protection. - Al-Jazeera
posted by toastyk at 7:55 AM on November 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Earlier I asked how certain true statements about Isarel's history and the current actions of its government were antisemitic and how one could use more appropriate language to discuss the history and actions of Israel.
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
Nothing in any of those statements is antisemitic and claims to the contrary are either understandable (if false) due to emotional distress on the part of the person making the claim, or they are malicious efforts to silence legitimate criticsm of Israel. In either case those accusations can be dismissed either with sympathy, or contempt, depending on the person making the false accusation.
Actual, REAL, antisemitism is wrong and I'm not arguing for it to be tolerable or accepted. But bullshit claims that "it's all about the Benjamins" or "Israel was founded by settler colonialism" or "Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing" and so on are all antisemitic dogwhistles are now provable to create real world harm rather than merely being underhanded ways to score internet points.
There is no reason for people to use deliberately hurtful language, nor to be rude, but that's not the same as triple checking every innocuous statement for the slightest trace of anything that could be maliciously twisted into a fase accusation of antisemitism by the motivated reasoning and pseudologic of bad actors. Nor is it the same as using the softest possible language to describe the evil being undertaken by the Israeli government.
Hamas is morally wrong and the attack on 10/7 was a crime against humanity and should be condemned. But that doesn't make what Israel is doing now any less genocidal, and it doesn't make saying so antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
Nothing in any of those statements is antisemitic and claims to the contrary are either understandable (if false) due to emotional distress on the part of the person making the claim, or they are malicious efforts to silence legitimate criticsm of Israel. In either case those accusations can be dismissed either with sympathy, or contempt, depending on the person making the false accusation.
Actual, REAL, antisemitism is wrong and I'm not arguing for it to be tolerable or accepted. But bullshit claims that "it's all about the Benjamins" or "Israel was founded by settler colonialism" or "Israel is engaged in ethnic cleansing" and so on are all antisemitic dogwhistles are now provable to create real world harm rather than merely being underhanded ways to score internet points.
There is no reason for people to use deliberately hurtful language, nor to be rude, but that's not the same as triple checking every innocuous statement for the slightest trace of anything that could be maliciously twisted into a fase accusation of antisemitism by the motivated reasoning and pseudologic of bad actors. Nor is it the same as using the softest possible language to describe the evil being undertaken by the Israeli government.
Hamas is morally wrong and the attack on 10/7 was a crime against humanity and should be condemned. But that doesn't make what Israel is doing now any less genocidal, and it doesn't make saying so antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 8:23 AM on November 8, 2023 [12 favorites]
Earlier I asked how certain true statements about Isarel's history and the current actions of its government were antisemitic and how one could use more appropriate language to discuss the history and actions of Israel.
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
And meanwhile some of the same Republicans who voted to censure Tlaib are also appearing on Fox News to talk about how George Soros is funding pro-Palestinian demonstrations, if one wants to talk about actual antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
The censure of Rep Talbi has answered that question to my satisfaction.
And meanwhile some of the same Republicans who voted to censure Tlaib are also appearing on Fox News to talk about how George Soros is funding pro-Palestinian demonstrations, if one wants to talk about actual antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:41 AM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
One relevant point here is that modi is an extreme anti Muslim bigot and...stokes anti Muslim sentiment for Hindu nationalists ends in India. No wonder he would find common cause with Netanyahu.
Yeah, here's a quick example of the striking parallels between Netanyahu's Likud and Modi's BJP, from August:
Abdul Rasheed says police locked him in a bus as a bulldozer demolished his shops in India’s northern Haryana state where a Muslim-majority district saw communal clashes last week.
“I was heartbroken. My family and children depended on the rent we received from the shops. We had rented shops to both Hindus and Muslims,” he told Al Jazeera on Sunday, adding that the authorities “gave no notice or showed any order, and bulldozed everything. This is vengeance. They are destroying hotels, shops and homes. There is no appeal and hearing,” the 51-year-old said. “We have been handed a begging bowl.”
Rasheed’s is among more than 300 Muslim homes and businesses bulldozed by Haryana’s right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government since Thursday in yet another instance of collective – and selective – punishment of a community over religious violence...
almost all the homes, shops – both concrete and moveable – and shanties bulldozed in the aftermath of the violence belong to Muslims.
This happened after a mosque was burned and an imam killed by Hindu nationalists, after a Hindu parade announced by a man accused of murdering two Muslims for transporting beef was stopped by a Muslim crowd throwing stones. The police are seen as looking the other way on the arson and murder.
So yeah, it's no surprise Modi jumped to support Netanyahu. The question remains whether he'll happily send 100,000 of his country's workers to help the Israeli Builders Association finish some apartments right now, though.
posted by mediareport at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
Yeah, here's a quick example of the striking parallels between Netanyahu's Likud and Modi's BJP, from August:
Abdul Rasheed says police locked him in a bus as a bulldozer demolished his shops in India’s northern Haryana state where a Muslim-majority district saw communal clashes last week.
“I was heartbroken. My family and children depended on the rent we received from the shops. We had rented shops to both Hindus and Muslims,” he told Al Jazeera on Sunday, adding that the authorities “gave no notice or showed any order, and bulldozed everything. This is vengeance. They are destroying hotels, shops and homes. There is no appeal and hearing,” the 51-year-old said. “We have been handed a begging bowl.”
Rasheed’s is among more than 300 Muslim homes and businesses bulldozed by Haryana’s right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) government since Thursday in yet another instance of collective – and selective – punishment of a community over religious violence...
almost all the homes, shops – both concrete and moveable – and shanties bulldozed in the aftermath of the violence belong to Muslims.
This happened after a mosque was burned and an imam killed by Hindu nationalists, after a Hindu parade announced by a man accused of murdering two Muslims for transporting beef was stopped by a Muslim crowd throwing stones. The police are seen as looking the other way on the arson and murder.
So yeah, it's no surprise Modi jumped to support Netanyahu. The question remains whether he'll happily send 100,000 of his country's workers to help the Israeli Builders Association finish some apartments right now, though.
posted by mediareport at 9:57 AM on November 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
The NY Times has posted an article featuring quotes from their recent conversations with various Hamas leaders.
It includes a lot of details about Yahya Sinwar the leader of Hamas in Gaza since 2017
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It includes a lot of details about Yahya Sinwar the leader of Hamas in Gaza since 2017
posted by interogative mood at 11:11 AM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
History is important, but at this point I feel like the few people arguing that Israel rocks and has rights and everything is Palestinians’ fault, or that People Under Occupation are just naturally expected to murder families because Zionists are 1) cheering for their chosen side no matter what, and 2) proving the point that this is incredibly complicated and this is not a cartoon good guys and bad guys situation.
Speaking of which, can we please see fewer pro-Israel and -Palestine rallies and more PEACE rallies? I’m an atheist and I DGAF whose sky god wins and who gets to be Mayor of Bible Town. Everyone’s wrong except, naturally, me.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Speaking of which, can we please see fewer pro-Israel and -Palestine rallies and more PEACE rallies? I’m an atheist and I DGAF whose sky god wins and who gets to be Mayor of Bible Town. Everyone’s wrong except, naturally, me.
posted by caviar2d2 at 3:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can’t tell where your irony starts and stops, but “ugh this is complicated can’t everybody just chill?? Also religion = bad amirite” is ridiculously tone deaf in this thread.
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [13 favorites]
Peace doesn’t change policy, and there is one side who is an internationally recognized state government that receives tons of bombs and aid from the West. There’s currently one side who has much more power and has killed 10000 people in a month. I don’t care whose ‘good’ or ‘bad’ but whomever is doing the most killing needs to stop the most.
Also the claim that this is just two groups of religious zealots fighting over who they is really god is both fucking stupid and frankly offensive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also the claim that this is just two groups of religious zealots fighting over who they is really god is both fucking stupid and frankly offensive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:56 PM on November 8, 2023 [18 favorites]
I can’t tell where your irony starts and stops, but “ugh this is complicated can’t everybody just chill?? Also religion = bad amirite” is ridiculously tone deaf in this thread.
+1 to this. I think reducing this conflict to a dumb religious war between dumb religious people and their dumb religious sky god is reductive, inaccurate, and really unkind to Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze, and others, including secular people, who all live in this area and come from deep and valuable traditions and are being grievously impacted by state violence and terrorism as we speak.
posted by kensington314 at 4:09 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
+1 to this. I think reducing this conflict to a dumb religious war between dumb religious people and their dumb religious sky god is reductive, inaccurate, and really unkind to Muslims, Jews, Christians, Druze, and others, including secular people, who all live in this area and come from deep and valuable traditions and are being grievously impacted by state violence and terrorism as we speak.
posted by kensington314 at 4:09 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Also just . . . lots of accusations of anti-semitism in this thread but I'll say that the clearest example I've seen so far is, in fact, the caviar2d2 sentiment that Judaism is so stupid as to be worthy of "sky god" and "Mayor of Bible Town" mockery. Let's do less of this kind of thing here.
posted by kensington314 at 4:13 PM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 4:13 PM on November 8, 2023 [15 favorites]
people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Yes, subject to the same laws of war as anybody else. Random indiscriminate rockets are no more consistent with that caveat than massacring festival goers. You don't get a pass on war crimes because somebody else did a crime first.
posted by Justinian at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yes, subject to the same laws of war as anybody else. Random indiscriminate rockets are no more consistent with that caveat than massacring festival goers. You don't get a pass on war crimes because somebody else did a crime first.
posted by Justinian at 4:57 PM on November 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Is it Day 32 or 33 now? I've lost count. Anyway, anyone used to wonder what must be like if there was the internet during the years between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi? Related to that thought, I don't really wonder anymore what must be like to have the internet during the Troubles.
Jeremy Flood: The ADL spread this same libel against Nelson Mandela in the 80's for fighting to end apartheid. They defended the white regime, and denounced the ANC as "totalitarian, anti-humane, anti-democratic, anti-Israel, and anti-American." History rhymes.
This is in response to ADL: The House’s bipartisan censure of Rep. Talib [sic] last night sends a critical message that antisemitism will not be tolerated in the halls of Congress. "From the River to the Sea" is a Hamas call to annihilate Israel - claiming it is a rally of coexistence gives cover to terror. Thank you to members of both parties for your leadership & moral clarity.
Someone asked for a cite, so here's one from the Boston Review (tho that is focused on their history in American politics) and a Foreign Policy one which is largely on Israel and South Africa.
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Jeremy Flood: The ADL spread this same libel against Nelson Mandela in the 80's for fighting to end apartheid. They defended the white regime, and denounced the ANC as "totalitarian, anti-humane, anti-democratic, anti-Israel, and anti-American." History rhymes.
This is in response to ADL: The House’s bipartisan censure of Rep. Talib [sic] last night sends a critical message that antisemitism will not be tolerated in the halls of Congress. "From the River to the Sea" is a Hamas call to annihilate Israel - claiming it is a rally of coexistence gives cover to terror. Thank you to members of both parties for your leadership & moral clarity.
Someone asked for a cite, so here's one from the Boston Review (tho that is focused on their history in American politics) and a Foreign Policy one which is largely on Israel and South Africa.
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
More Than 100 Congressional Staffers Walk Out, Demand Cease-Fire in Gaza
Video on Sky News
posted by cendawanita at 6:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Video on Sky News
posted by cendawanita at 6:46 PM on November 8, 2023 [5 favorites]
Demonstrators Block Melbourne Port Ahead of Israeli Ship’s Scheduled Arrival -
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 7:34 PM on November 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
The ADL spread this same libel against Nelson Mandela in the 80's for fighting to end apartheid
The ADL are absolute garbage, sorry. They just recently knuckled under to threats of litigation from extremist hate-inciter Chaiya Raichik of Libs of TikTok (which has been credibly linked to inciting bomb threats, among other things) and removed her from their "Glossary of Extremism".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:49 PM on November 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
The ADL are absolute garbage, sorry. They just recently knuckled under to threats of litigation from extremist hate-inciter Chaiya Raichik of Libs of TikTok (which has been credibly linked to inciting bomb threats, among other things) and removed her from their "Glossary of Extremism".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:49 PM on November 8, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yet within hours of the Oct 7th attack on Israel, Narendra Modi was among the first of the world leaders to respond, condemning the terror attack and pledging to stand in solidarity with Israel - providing full support without a balancing statement that usually follows it. Israel's ambassador took the statement at face value and thanked India for their 100% support.
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
As an Indian-American person who has been following the BJP and Modi government closely for many years, I feel like this is a very selective and biased perspective on India's support for Israel to say the least! Modi and the BJP are extraordinarily Islamophobic and prior to his election as PM, Modi was widely held responsible for government indifference to pogroms against the Muslim population of Gujarat that resulted in thousands of deaths. Modi was banned from entry into the US due to “severe violations of religious freedom" up until his election as PM. Many Indian observers have found similarities between Israel's occupation of Gaza and India's occupation of Kashmir. India and Israel are currently closed allied because they are both led by theocratic ethnofascist right-wing parties, not because of the "2008 Mumbai terror attacks." I'm curious how you decided that was the "consensus" because that is definitely not the consensus among any Indians I know nor among the Indian press.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:58 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
This is a big departure from the rest of the global south and also their previous stances, and is more in line with Western nations like the US or Australia. India also abstained from the UN Resolution calling for a humanitarian truce in Gaza.
The consensus is that the shift in India's views was partly caused by the 2008 Mumbai terror attacks, where Muslim terrorists crossed the border to slaughter civilians in Mumbai. Indians describe that day of infamy as their 9/11, just as a similar analogy was used to describe Oct 7 in Israel.
As an Indian-American person who has been following the BJP and Modi government closely for many years, I feel like this is a very selective and biased perspective on India's support for Israel to say the least! Modi and the BJP are extraordinarily Islamophobic and prior to his election as PM, Modi was widely held responsible for government indifference to pogroms against the Muslim population of Gujarat that resulted in thousands of deaths. Modi was banned from entry into the US due to “severe violations of religious freedom" up until his election as PM. Many Indian observers have found similarities between Israel's occupation of Gaza and India's occupation of Kashmir. India and Israel are currently closed allied because they are both led by theocratic ethnofascist right-wing parties, not because of the "2008 Mumbai terror attacks." I'm curious how you decided that was the "consensus" because that is definitely not the consensus among any Indians I know nor among the Indian press.
posted by armadillo1224 at 8:58 PM on November 8, 2023 [16 favorites]
Armadillo1224 - I provided the links to The Guardian and a Japan Times commentary written by the former U.N. assistant secretary-general, both allude to Israel and India having a common enemy as an emotional reason, and defense ties / geopolitics as a pragmatic reason.
I agree with the statements that you, mediareport and MisantropicPainforest made about Modi being anti-Muslim.
In general, it's not disputed that terror attacks tend to benefit right wing nationalist parties with a traditional emphasis on national and internal security.
The interpretation I have is that the gradual shift in public sentiment over time in response to terror attacks has given Modi the mandate to rule. I hedged and said "partly" - of course there are other factors in his historic 2014 election - the first time a single party won an outright majority since 1984. We can blame the perceived INC corruption, the economy, etc. But security seems to be predominant.
TheConversation (on the 2019 election) - Modi benefited tremendously from the fallout from a suicide attack in Pulwama in Jammu and Kashmir that killed 40 Indian soldiers in February 2019. The national security narrative took centre stage in the 2019 election, something that the opposition parties were unable to counter. // He built on the national security narrative by framing himself as a Chowkidar, or watchman, who would protect India.
In your view, was Modi elected in spite of him being Islamophobic, or because he is Islamophobic?
posted by xdvesper at 9:45 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I agree with the statements that you, mediareport and MisantropicPainforest made about Modi being anti-Muslim.
In general, it's not disputed that terror attacks tend to benefit right wing nationalist parties with a traditional emphasis on national and internal security.
The interpretation I have is that the gradual shift in public sentiment over time in response to terror attacks has given Modi the mandate to rule. I hedged and said "partly" - of course there are other factors in his historic 2014 election - the first time a single party won an outright majority since 1984. We can blame the perceived INC corruption, the economy, etc. But security seems to be predominant.
TheConversation (on the 2019 election) - Modi benefited tremendously from the fallout from a suicide attack in Pulwama in Jammu and Kashmir that killed 40 Indian soldiers in February 2019. The national security narrative took centre stage in the 2019 election, something that the opposition parties were unable to counter. // He built on the national security narrative by framing himself as a Chowkidar, or watchman, who would protect India.
In your view, was Modi elected in spite of him being Islamophobic, or because he is Islamophobic?
posted by xdvesper at 9:45 PM on November 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can someone who understands Hebrew and knows the Israeli media comment on this article:
Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st (Hebrew source, Google translated version)
Another source, which google for some reason cannot translate: "תצילו אותנו": טייסי האפאצ'י שהגיעו ראשונים לזירת הקרבות מדברים
They seem to imply that parts of the Israeli civilian casualties on Oct 7 are from friendly fire by Apache helicopters (via google translate):
posted by kmt at 1:45 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hamas deception of IDF helicopters and directing pilots on WhatsApp | Air Force on the 1st (Hebrew source, Google translated version)
Another source, which google for some reason cannot translate: "תצילו אותנו": טייסי האפאצ'י שהגיעו ראשונים לזירת הקרבות מדברים
They seem to imply that parts of the Israeli civilian casualties on Oct 7 are from friendly fire by Apache helicopters (via google translate):
After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.Israel watchers: are these sources reliable? Is this topic covered in Israeli media/society? If even parts oft these are true, then they are the most damning indictment of the preparedness and competence of the IDF.
posted by kmt at 1:45 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Google translate seems to work well enough, Chrome translates the whole thing to English, some passages relevant to what you wanted -
---
"I see many cars on Route 232 standing, and some with their doors open," recalled Lt. Col. A. "I understand that I am going to have a dilemma here as to who is our forces and who is the enemy, if any, and who are citizens. The whole decision is now on me, there's no one to talk to."
---
A commander of an improvised unit fighting on the ground is trying to recapture an outpost, and he has no military communications system.
I mean, you conduct an attack on our base with a special unit, when the communication is on WhatsApp. It's an event that sounds imaginary
---
I'm on the phone with a family that is in the MMD, there are terrorists inside their house, they are locked inside the MMD. Our forces haven't had time to reach this settlement yet, and I've already run out of missiles there, which is the more accurate weaponry. I decide to shoot a cannon 30 meters from this house, a very difficult decision. I shoot so that if they are now there, they will hear the explosions inside the house, that they will realize that they know they are there, and hopefully they will get out of this house.
---
"It's a very difficult dilemma," Lt. Col. A. also admits. "You look at the target, you see what's happening there." And Lt. Col. A. explains: "I allow myself to say that I already understand how targets behave - a kidnapped person will not run within a group on his own initiative without anyone holding him back. And I choose such targets that I tell myself that the chance that I will shoot at abductees here as well is low."
But it's not 100 percent.
"To tell you one hundred percent, it's not."
A big weight on the shoulders.
"Crazy".
On the first day of the war, Squadron 113 fired over a hundred missiles and thousands of shells. She destroyed hundreds of terrorists. It was not enough to stop the massacre, but together with the standby classes and the fighters in the settlements, they were small points of light in the great darkness of this black Sabbath. And one cannot help but think of another October, the one of 1973.
---
Even if true, why would you think this are a damning indictment of the IDF?
In the minutes after the 9/11 attacks, the military were authorized to shoot down passenger jets if they were suspected of being hijacked, I don't think this action was particularly controversial - what if there were 10 planes as part of the AQ plot? Acting too slowly and indecisively in defense of civilians carries its own risks - there were hundreds, even thousands of armed fighters crossing the border with the means and intent to massacre and rape civilians - and there was no sense of whether this was the tail end of a small attack, or just the beginning of a much larger offensive that must be stopped in its tracks.
They were well armed enough to destroy several tanks and fighting vehicles, so it was, in every sense of the word, a warzone. Not a great place to be for either side.
posted by xdvesper at 3:48 AM on November 9, 2023
---
"I see many cars on Route 232 standing, and some with their doors open," recalled Lt. Col. A. "I understand that I am going to have a dilemma here as to who is our forces and who is the enemy, if any, and who are citizens. The whole decision is now on me, there's no one to talk to."
---
A commander of an improvised unit fighting on the ground is trying to recapture an outpost, and he has no military communications system.
I mean, you conduct an attack on our base with a special unit, when the communication is on WhatsApp. It's an event that sounds imaginary
---
I'm on the phone with a family that is in the MMD, there are terrorists inside their house, they are locked inside the MMD. Our forces haven't had time to reach this settlement yet, and I've already run out of missiles there, which is the more accurate weaponry. I decide to shoot a cannon 30 meters from this house, a very difficult decision. I shoot so that if they are now there, they will hear the explosions inside the house, that they will realize that they know they are there, and hopefully they will get out of this house.
---
"It's a very difficult dilemma," Lt. Col. A. also admits. "You look at the target, you see what's happening there." And Lt. Col. A. explains: "I allow myself to say that I already understand how targets behave - a kidnapped person will not run within a group on his own initiative without anyone holding him back. And I choose such targets that I tell myself that the chance that I will shoot at abductees here as well is low."
But it's not 100 percent.
"To tell you one hundred percent, it's not."
A big weight on the shoulders.
"Crazy".
On the first day of the war, Squadron 113 fired over a hundred missiles and thousands of shells. She destroyed hundreds of terrorists. It was not enough to stop the massacre, but together with the standby classes and the fighters in the settlements, they were small points of light in the great darkness of this black Sabbath. And one cannot help but think of another October, the one of 1973.
---
Even if true, why would you think this are a damning indictment of the IDF?
In the minutes after the 9/11 attacks, the military were authorized to shoot down passenger jets if they were suspected of being hijacked, I don't think this action was particularly controversial - what if there were 10 planes as part of the AQ plot? Acting too slowly and indecisively in defense of civilians carries its own risks - there were hundreds, even thousands of armed fighters crossing the border with the means and intent to massacre and rape civilians - and there was no sense of whether this was the tail end of a small attack, or just the beginning of a much larger offensive that must be stopped in its tracks.
They were well armed enough to destroy several tanks and fighting vehicles, so it was, in every sense of the word, a warzone. Not a great place to be for either side.
posted by xdvesper at 3:48 AM on November 9, 2023
the chances of some number of oct 7 deaths being friendly fire has been brought up in social media posts and some interviews i’ve listened to and while it seems very likely it also seems like there’s no good reason to emphasize it. whether hamas killed everyone or whether some number of civilians were killed by accident by attack helicopters, the relentless assault on gaza is still the unjustified and illegal slaughter of civilians.
posted by dis_integration at 6:18 AM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 6:18 AM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Exactly. Israel's defenses got caught with their pants down on 10/7, and they were in a position of responding rapidly to unforeseen attacks of surprising magnitude. I could call friendly fire deaths unfortunate and a failure of training/execution to a degree, but I don't know that I would consider them a significant degree of depraved indifference.
For much of what has followed... I would not say the same.
posted by delfin at 6:55 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
For much of what has followed... I would not say the same.
posted by delfin at 6:55 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
people under belligerent occupation and seige have a right of armed resistance.
Coming to this late, but I do wish that people making this point (in general, not just here) would finish the sentence and say clearly if they think the Oct. 7 attacks are legitimate armed resistance, or if the rocket launches or suicide bombers (which thankfully seem much reduced in recent years) are, or if they are excluding those things but including something else.
It stands out to me because the vast majority of people commenting are residents of countries that enacted terrible genocides with continued repression (e.g., US, Canada, Australia), or of countries that did the colonizing and occupying (e.g., UK, France, Spain), plus those who are from countries in the global south that were simultaneously subjects of colonization as well as perpetrators of internal repression and violence (e.g., India). I have to suspect that just about no one who is saying positive things about Palestinian armed resistance would be happy if the victims of historical or current repression in their own country were enacting this level of violence locally.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:07 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Coming to this late, but I do wish that people making this point (in general, not just here) would finish the sentence and say clearly if they think the Oct. 7 attacks are legitimate armed resistance, or if the rocket launches or suicide bombers (which thankfully seem much reduced in recent years) are, or if they are excluding those things but including something else.
It stands out to me because the vast majority of people commenting are residents of countries that enacted terrible genocides with continued repression (e.g., US, Canada, Australia), or of countries that did the colonizing and occupying (e.g., UK, France, Spain), plus those who are from countries in the global south that were simultaneously subjects of colonization as well as perpetrators of internal repression and violence (e.g., India). I have to suspect that just about no one who is saying positive things about Palestinian armed resistance would be happy if the victims of historical or current repression in their own country were enacting this level of violence locally.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:07 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
There are degrees to all of that. There are elements of Hamas's policy and actions that I agree with, elements where I understand why they have happened but disagree with their being the right path in any way, and elements that I reject outright.
I reject the deliberate targeting of civilians, whether it is extensive bombing of cities during country-versus-country warfare, random acts of terrorism, lashing out at perceived enemies or accepting widespread collateral damage without blinking. As Lee Felsenstein once instructed demonstrators as MIlitary Editor of the Berkeley Barb, "Break the right windows. Banks, not small businesses." Killing and maiming people who are not posing a significant physical threat, whether it's Israel or Hamas or some other nation-state doing it, is unquestionably vile.
In the 1960s, MLK Jr. noted more than once that "a riot is the language of the unheard." He said this not to encourage violent behavior, nor to endorse it, but as part of illustrating why it was occurring -- that the violence was in a context of people pushed to a breaking point by harsh circumstances and unfair treatment for which they had found no better way of obtaining relief. And, once again, that's not an ironclad excuse for violence or a statement of "Well, okay, go crack some skulls open, then. That's all right." But it does at least give some perspective as to why responses have risen to such horrific extents, as do comments by interrogative and others upthread regarding the self-perpetuating cycle that's happening here -- how excesses by one side provide justification for the other side to commit excesses to be responded to, and the merry-go-round spins on.
posted by delfin at 7:37 AM on November 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
I reject the deliberate targeting of civilians, whether it is extensive bombing of cities during country-versus-country warfare, random acts of terrorism, lashing out at perceived enemies or accepting widespread collateral damage without blinking. As Lee Felsenstein once instructed demonstrators as MIlitary Editor of the Berkeley Barb, "Break the right windows. Banks, not small businesses." Killing and maiming people who are not posing a significant physical threat, whether it's Israel or Hamas or some other nation-state doing it, is unquestionably vile.
In the 1960s, MLK Jr. noted more than once that "a riot is the language of the unheard." He said this not to encourage violent behavior, nor to endorse it, but as part of illustrating why it was occurring -- that the violence was in a context of people pushed to a breaking point by harsh circumstances and unfair treatment for which they had found no better way of obtaining relief. And, once again, that's not an ironclad excuse for violence or a statement of "Well, okay, go crack some skulls open, then. That's all right." But it does at least give some perspective as to why responses have risen to such horrific extents, as do comments by interrogative and others upthread regarding the self-perpetuating cycle that's happening here -- how excesses by one side provide justification for the other side to commit excesses to be responded to, and the merry-go-round spins on.
posted by delfin at 7:37 AM on November 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say: "Others indicated that negotiations which took place prior to the ground invasion involved a far larger number of hostages, with Hamas proposing the release of dozens of foreign nationals captive in Gaza."
(incidentally, I recall someone on social media saying "oh, you're demanding a ceasefire from Israel? why aren't you demanding Hamas release prisoners!" and, well. Could have had both!)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:05 AM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
(incidentally, I recall someone on social media saying "oh, you're demanding a ceasefire from Israel? why aren't you demanding Hamas release prisoners!" and, well. Could have had both!)
posted by BungaDunga at 9:05 AM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
In your view, was Modi elected in spite of him being Islamophobic, or because he is Islamophobic?
lol
posted by mediareport at 9:13 AM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
lol
posted by mediareport at 9:13 AM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
IMO I think it’s fine to have completely abstracted academic debates about when and where armed resistance is justified ( fine to attack military targets, not ok to attack civilians seems like a reasonable principle). Of more interest to me, and I think more relevant to the current debate, is that saying it is ok to attack civilians from group A will get you fired from your job, while saying it is ok to attack civilians from group B will not. Ditto for what’s acceptable discourse in the MSM and the House of Representatives. We have an obvious double standard in the US and do not value some lives as much as others.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on November 9, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:20 AM on November 9, 2023 [16 favorites]
Three rights groups file ICC lawsuit against Israel over Gaza ‘genocide’
The lawsuit urges the ICC to include ‘genocide’ in Gaza war crimes inquiry and issue arrest warrants for Israel’s leaders.
posted by adamvasco at 10:58 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The lawsuit urges the ICC to include ‘genocide’ in Gaza war crimes inquiry and issue arrest warrants for Israel’s leaders.
posted by adamvasco at 10:58 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Coming to this late, but I do wish that people making this point (in general, not just here) would finish the sentence and say clearly if they think the Oct. 7 attacks are legitimate armed resistance, or if the rocket launches or suicide bombers (which thankfully seem much reduced in recent years) are, or if they are excluding those things but including something else.
The attacks of October 7th on Israeli military represent legitimate armed resistance; the kidnapping, rape and murder of civilians does not.
Personally I kind of wish that anyone arguing for Israel's "right to defend itself" would acknowledge the broader context in which Hamas' actions occurred; there is a bizarre mythology of Israeli innocence when these things happen that completely ignores the fact that Israel is annexing the West Bank (which is, remember, occupied Palestinian territory) in contravention of international law, and that Israeli settlers have been carrying out campaigns of terror against Palestinians in the West Bank for years with the connivance and protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:02 AM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
The attacks of October 7th on Israeli military represent legitimate armed resistance; the kidnapping, rape and murder of civilians does not.
Personally I kind of wish that anyone arguing for Israel's "right to defend itself" would acknowledge the broader context in which Hamas' actions occurred; there is a bizarre mythology of Israeli innocence when these things happen that completely ignores the fact that Israel is annexing the West Bank (which is, remember, occupied Palestinian territory) in contravention of international law, and that Israeli settlers have been carrying out campaigns of terror against Palestinians in the West Bank for years with the connivance and protection of the IDF.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:02 AM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Of more interest to me, and I think more relevant to the current debate, is that saying it is ok to attack civilians from group A will get you fired from your job, while saying it is ok to attack civilians from group B will not.
I think this heavily depends on what the current debate is. If it’s about free speech and the double standard you point out, then I think yes—hopefully we all agree that there is a clear double standard about how Palestinian vs. Israeli civilian lives and deaths are discussed in the halls of U.S. power.
(Though even here, I would stress, MeFites live in a variety of contexts and may encounter slightly different local standards. I spend most of my time among university students and in slightly-left to left spaces; so sometimes I need to vent about the fairly callous attitudes such spaces take towards Israeli civilian deaths. This doesn’t mean that I’m ignoring the larger pro-Israel dynamic at play in the US, I’m simply responding to what I see as the dominant dynamic in my day-to-day life. This is a low-stakes discussion, so I don’t think I’m giving up any strategic advantage by doing so!)
But if the current discussion is about the reality of the attacks, whether they’re justified, etc.—as pseudonymous cognomen’s response suggests it might be—then I think our double standards about speech, while worrying, are ultimately irrelevant. Hamas’s attacks on Israel—or Israel’s on Gaza—are ultimately justified or unjustified regardless of the balance of sympathies in the wider world. Not being able to celebrate an act does not make that act any more just.
Not that I think you’re saying that! I just want to point out that the “current debate” is a matter of individual framing and there are at least two (likely more) debates currently occurring in parallel. And perhaps it might go some way towards defusing the tensions in this thread if we pointed out which we were contributing to before leaping into the thick of it.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:11 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think this heavily depends on what the current debate is. If it’s about free speech and the double standard you point out, then I think yes—hopefully we all agree that there is a clear double standard about how Palestinian vs. Israeli civilian lives and deaths are discussed in the halls of U.S. power.
(Though even here, I would stress, MeFites live in a variety of contexts and may encounter slightly different local standards. I spend most of my time among university students and in slightly-left to left spaces; so sometimes I need to vent about the fairly callous attitudes such spaces take towards Israeli civilian deaths. This doesn’t mean that I’m ignoring the larger pro-Israel dynamic at play in the US, I’m simply responding to what I see as the dominant dynamic in my day-to-day life. This is a low-stakes discussion, so I don’t think I’m giving up any strategic advantage by doing so!)
But if the current discussion is about the reality of the attacks, whether they’re justified, etc.—as pseudonymous cognomen’s response suggests it might be—then I think our double standards about speech, while worrying, are ultimately irrelevant. Hamas’s attacks on Israel—or Israel’s on Gaza—are ultimately justified or unjustified regardless of the balance of sympathies in the wider world. Not being able to celebrate an act does not make that act any more just.
Not that I think you’re saying that! I just want to point out that the “current debate” is a matter of individual framing and there are at least two (likely more) debates currently occurring in parallel. And perhaps it might go some way towards defusing the tensions in this thread if we pointed out which we were contributing to before leaping into the thick of it.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:11 AM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
War crime apologia is pretty fucking gross, no matter which side you're apologizing for.
posted by Jarcat at 11:19 AM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 11:19 AM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
as pseudonymous cognomen’s response suggests it might be
I don’t think there’s any ‘suggesting’ going on in their comment either way. Seems pretty clear that they’re saying, attacks on military ok, attacks on civilians not ok. Which also seems to be the broad consensus here. I could be wrong.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:25 AM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don’t think there’s any ‘suggesting’ going on in their comment either way. Seems pretty clear that they’re saying, attacks on military ok, attacks on civilians not ok. Which also seems to be the broad consensus here. I could be wrong.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:25 AM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Netanyahu rejected ceasefire-for-hostages deal in Gaza, sources say: "Others indicated that negotiations which took place prior to the ground invasion involved a far larger number of hostages, with Hamas proposing the release of dozens of foreign nationals captive in Gaza."
I cannot imagine waking up to learn that my Prime Minister rejected an opportunity to return, say, my niece or grandchild or grandparent and opted instead to carpet bomb Gaza, most likely including that very family member. It's so nuts.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on November 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
I cannot imagine waking up to learn that my Prime Minister rejected an opportunity to return, say, my niece or grandchild or grandparent and opted instead to carpet bomb Gaza, most likely including that very family member. It's so nuts.
posted by kensington314 at 11:27 AM on November 9, 2023 [11 favorites]
I don’t think there’s any ‘suggesting’ going on in their comment either way.
Suggesting that the “current debate” is over the acts themselves rather than speech about the acts, as you had said.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:29 AM on November 9, 2023
Suggesting that the “current debate” is over the acts themselves rather than speech about the acts, as you had said.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:29 AM on November 9, 2023
From the BungaDunga link.
One source with knowledge of the talks, which slowed after the Israeli ground invasion, said a central point of discussion was a demand by the Israeli side for Hamas to provide a full list specifying the name and details of each person held in Gaza. The Israeli side was unwilling to cease bombardments without receiving this list.posted by kensington314 at 11:32 AM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hamas responded that it was unable to provide the list without a pause in the fighting, as the estimated 240 hostages were held by a number of different groups in places across Gaza. That suggested even Hamas leaders do not know for sure how many people are held captive, their locations or the number who have survived the bombardments.
Another source said Hamas originally demanded prisoner exchanges, fuel and other supplies in return for the hostages, but these demands were dropped in favour of a halt to the airstrikes alone.
“Each time the Israeli counter-demand got harder,” the source said. Members of Hamas have previously said they took hostages in order to exchange them for the thousands of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.
The negotiations have also brought splits inside the Israeli establishment to the fore, pitting hawks in the military, government rightwingers, and particularly Netanyahu, against the Mossad intelligence agency, which is the lead agency in hostage negotiations, and some of the generals.
“Each time a deal would go back to Bibi [Netanyahu] it would come back with tougher demands,” one source said. Netanyahu has repeatedly publicly rejected any idea of a ceasefire, and has instead opted to intensify attacks on Gaza.
Peter Oborne reports from Hebron in the southern part of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, where illegal settlers, backed by Israel’s military, are forcing Palestinians off their land with impunity.
For Israel’s settler movement, with the Israeli Defence Force on their side, this is their moment.
posted by adamvasco at 11:35 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
For Israel’s settler movement, with the Israeli Defence Force on their side, this is their moment.
posted by adamvasco at 11:35 AM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Jarcat, maybe explain in more depth
Entirely fair question! I should have elucidated more.
I think creating an artificial (one the people making the actual attacks didn't even draw) distinction between certain parts of a military operation to allow for some of it to be called justified is textbook apologia.
I think anything resulting in children being bombed, shot and murdered is unjustifiable on any moral level. I don't care where the bombs come from or why.
I don't think saying "Killing civilians is not OK" is apologia, but I can see how that interpretation would have been drawn.
I also think responding with "can you even read" is a big fuck you, but the kind that you're allowed to say around here, and I'm not going to give to benefit of the doubt to someone who does that repeatedly in the same thread.
posted by Jarcat at 12:12 PM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Entirely fair question! I should have elucidated more.
I think creating an artificial (one the people making the actual attacks didn't even draw) distinction between certain parts of a military operation to allow for some of it to be called justified is textbook apologia.
I think anything resulting in children being bombed, shot and murdered is unjustifiable on any moral level. I don't care where the bombs come from or why.
I don't think saying "Killing civilians is not OK" is apologia, but I can see how that interpretation would have been drawn.
I also think responding with "can you even read" is a big fuck you, but the kind that you're allowed to say around here, and I'm not going to give to benefit of the doubt to someone who does that repeatedly in the same thread.
posted by Jarcat at 12:12 PM on November 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think anything resulting in children being bombed, shot and murdered is unjustifiable on any moral level. I don't care where the bombs come from or why.
This is pretty well accounted for in the statement “killing civilians is wrong”.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is pretty well accounted for in the statement “killing civilians is wrong”.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Please be considerate and respectful and remember that name calling might result into a temporary ban.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 12:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Misanthropic I think we're closer to agreeing on this and most points than it seems from my (bull in a china shop-like) entrance to this thread.
I'm speaking from a position of believing that any deliberate military action that unintentionally/intentionally kills civilians is still a *deliberate* action that killed civilians, even if it was a series of actions intended to attack military installations primarily and the 'collateral' damage is seen as a side effect.
I don't really have a point beyond that, nor am I asking anyone to change their mind; I just wanted to speak mine.
posted by Jarcat at 12:32 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm speaking from a position of believing that any deliberate military action that unintentionally/intentionally kills civilians is still a *deliberate* action that killed civilians, even if it was a series of actions intended to attack military installations primarily and the 'collateral' damage is seen as a side effect.
I don't really have a point beyond that, nor am I asking anyone to change their mind; I just wanted to speak mine.
posted by Jarcat at 12:32 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
The broader context in which Hamas’ attacks occurred is as follows. Israel and the PLO agreed to mutual recognition and to negotiate on the basis of a two state solutions. The Palestinian Authority would run Gaza and Palestinian cites and towns in the West Bank while negotiations would proceed to resolve the border, the issue of Palestinian refugees and security. The Palestinian Authority agreed to renounce terrorism and accept the legitimacy of a Jewish state. Actions by groups in Israel that are at least affiliated with Netanyahu and groups like Hamas have worked to undermine this agreement. Hamas rejects these agreements and has stated that they consider all of Israel to be occupied. With international pressure Israel completed its withdrawal from Gaza in 2005. Hamas won elections shortly there after and began a series of attacks on Israel that resulted in a blockade and restrictions of the flow of people, goods and money in and out of Gaza. There have been multiple periods of increased violence from Gaza and each time it has ended with a ceasefire with the opportunity to restart the peace process. Hamas has grudgingly acknowledged that a two state solution is the basis of national consensus and suggested some kind of long term truce — Hudna — could be negotiated that would be a kind of peace in all but name. Israel has rejected this as past ceasefires have been merely opportunities to rearm. Palestinians will argue that Netanyahu has not real interest in negotiation.
Meanwhile since 2017 Israel has tried to work with Yahya Sinwar — Hamas’ leader in Gaza to try to manage the conflict. There have been various confidence building measures around the flow of aid to Gaza and the easing of restrictions, increased passes for Palestinians to work in Israel and travel to the West Bank.
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped attempt to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers in violation of international law. This is a major source of ongoing provocations. There are also good reasons to question is the governments of Benjamin Netanyahu have ever been negotiating in good faith.
Unfortunately whenever there is progress towards a deal we see Hamas or settler groups attempt to sabotage it with violence. The most recent effort to resolve the conflict has been an approach to get Israel’s existence normalized and accepted by Muslim states such as the UAE and Saudi Arabia. This approach is supposed to further isolate groups like Hamas. There has also been an effort to end the permanent refugee status for Palestinians who descend from people who fled in 1948-1967 and fled to neighboring countries. This combined with a gradual easing and negotiations with Hamas was hoped would enable an Oslo style breakthrough.
These approaches had appeared to be bearing fruit — that is one of the reasons this attack was such a surprise. It is clear now that Hamas doesn’t want peace.
The only path to a ceasefire is for the Al Qassim brigades to surrender, Hamas leaders to renounce violence and for Netanyahu to go and the extremists purged from roles in the government of either side.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile since 2017 Israel has tried to work with Yahya Sinwar — Hamas’ leader in Gaza to try to manage the conflict. There have been various confidence building measures around the flow of aid to Gaza and the easing of restrictions, increased passes for Palestinians to work in Israel and travel to the West Bank.
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped attempt to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers in violation of international law. This is a major source of ongoing provocations. There are also good reasons to question is the governments of Benjamin Netanyahu have ever been negotiating in good faith.
Unfortunately whenever there is progress towards a deal we see Hamas or settler groups attempt to sabotage it with violence. The most recent effort to resolve the conflict has been an approach to get Israel’s existence normalized and accepted by Muslim states such as the UAE and Saudi Arabia. This approach is supposed to further isolate groups like Hamas. There has also been an effort to end the permanent refugee status for Palestinians who descend from people who fled in 1948-1967 and fled to neighboring countries. This combined with a gradual easing and negotiations with Hamas was hoped would enable an Oslo style breakthrough.
These approaches had appeared to be bearing fruit — that is one of the reasons this attack was such a surprise. It is clear now that Hamas doesn’t want peace.
The only path to a ceasefire is for the Al Qassim brigades to surrender, Hamas leaders to renounce violence and for Netanyahu to go and the extremists purged from roles in the government of either side.
posted by interogative mood at 12:36 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
... since 2017 Israel has tried to work with Yahya Sinwar — Hamas’ leader in Gaza to try to manage the conflict....
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped [attempting] to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers in violation of international law.
These two things, taken together, do not to me indicate that Israel was/is serious about moving towards having lasting peace with Palestinians, let alone towards a two-state solution.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:56 PM on November 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped [attempting] to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers in violation of international law.
These two things, taken together, do not to me indicate that Israel was/is serious about moving towards having lasting peace with Palestinians, let alone towards a two-state solution.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:56 PM on November 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
As far as attitude of callous indifference to Israeli deaths goes, I suspect it's largely due to the general perception on the part of many/most left leaning people that Israel was founded by foreign people coming into a country, killing lots of indigenous people, and taking their stuff.
As a result some/many people on the leftward side have a largely unexamined and unspecified sort of nebulous belief that Israel is reaping what it sowed. Not so much that Israel deserves the attacks, but that they're self inflicted and therefore not as horrifying as attacks of a less self inflicted nature might be.
That tends to create a feeling that Israel is basically whining about a problem they created. A belief that all Israel has to do is stop being awful to the Palestinians and then the rockets will stop. So why do they whine that there's rockets while they're smashing the "launch rockets at me" button?
It is more or less an article of faith on the part of many left leaning people that Israel created the problem, Israel can solve the problem, and that Israel has spent almost its entire existence making the problem worse instead of fixing it.
I'm not arguing here that any of that is true, nor that even if it is true that it actually justifies not being as concerned about the victims of random Hamas rockets as a person otherwise might be. I'm just saying that's the cause of the attitude mentioned and the cause of a lot of the disconnect between the people who are generally on the side of seeing Israel as doing a distasteful but ultimately necessary and unavoidable thing by committing genocide in Gaza, and those who see Israel as committing war crimes of convenience because its right wing government absolutely refuses to solve the problem the right way.
posted by sotonohito at 2:39 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
As a result some/many people on the leftward side have a largely unexamined and unspecified sort of nebulous belief that Israel is reaping what it sowed. Not so much that Israel deserves the attacks, but that they're self inflicted and therefore not as horrifying as attacks of a less self inflicted nature might be.
That tends to create a feeling that Israel is basically whining about a problem they created. A belief that all Israel has to do is stop being awful to the Palestinians and then the rockets will stop. So why do they whine that there's rockets while they're smashing the "launch rockets at me" button?
It is more or less an article of faith on the part of many left leaning people that Israel created the problem, Israel can solve the problem, and that Israel has spent almost its entire existence making the problem worse instead of fixing it.
I'm not arguing here that any of that is true, nor that even if it is true that it actually justifies not being as concerned about the victims of random Hamas rockets as a person otherwise might be. I'm just saying that's the cause of the attitude mentioned and the cause of a lot of the disconnect between the people who are generally on the side of seeing Israel as doing a distasteful but ultimately necessary and unavoidable thing by committing genocide in Gaza, and those who see Israel as committing war crimes of convenience because its right wing government absolutely refuses to solve the problem the right way.
posted by sotonohito at 2:39 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Politically Israel has been divided for a long time between those like Netanyahu and Shamir before him, who are not serious about peace and those like Benny Ganz who are. Netanyahu has used his time in office to push Hamas to be more radical so he doesn't have to listen to western pressure to make a deal and can string things along. Those who are serious about peace have not been able to hold onto power long enough to succeed in efforts to push Hamas to be less radical and try to bring them in form the cold. Post Oct-7th it is too late. Hamas will need to either make a serious and signifcant overture for peace; or they will be destroyed. It will need to be something akin to Saddat gets on a plane and goes to Jerusalem. I would not hold by breath.
When I say that Netanyahu isn't serious about a real peace deal I look at the actions, not just statements he's made to his base. Consider these two maps of the current situation: the first map shows West Bank access restrictions and the second Seam Zone. The Seam Zone annexes about 10% of the West Bank. The access restrictions claim a significant part of the Jordan Valley as a restricted security zone. Combined that puts about 40-60% of the West Bank under some kind of Israeli Control. The Palestinian towns and villages are essentially divided into discontinuous towns and villages.
If Netanyahu was serious about a peace process he would either propose land swaps, withdrawal of settlements, or some combination. Israel will need some access and bases to the Jordan Valley for security and radars -- the need the warning time to intercept missiles or stop air attacks; but it will need to be acknowledged that it is Palestinian Sovereign Territory. Those are the kind of proposals that Israeli leaders who are serious about negotiations make.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I say that Netanyahu isn't serious about a real peace deal I look at the actions, not just statements he's made to his base. Consider these two maps of the current situation: the first map shows West Bank access restrictions and the second Seam Zone. The Seam Zone annexes about 10% of the West Bank. The access restrictions claim a significant part of the Jordan Valley as a restricted security zone. Combined that puts about 40-60% of the West Bank under some kind of Israeli Control. The Palestinian towns and villages are essentially divided into discontinuous towns and villages.
If Netanyahu was serious about a peace process he would either propose land swaps, withdrawal of settlements, or some combination. Israel will need some access and bases to the Jordan Valley for security and radars -- the need the warning time to intercept missiles or stop air attacks; but it will need to be acknowledged that it is Palestinian Sovereign Territory. Those are the kind of proposals that Israeli leaders who are serious about negotiations make.
posted by interogative mood at 3:02 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped attempt to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers in violation of international law.
You can't really think anyone will believe the settlers have only been taking "undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness" can you? I mean, it does not require bulldozers to demolish existing homes and other buildings if the land is 'undeveloped'.
The way you describe it, it would still be illegal, but the reality is much worse and anyone who has been paying even the tiniest bit of attention knows that.
posted by bcd at 3:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
You can't really think anyone will believe the settlers have only been taking "undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness" can you? I mean, it does not require bulldozers to demolish existing homes and other buildings if the land is 'undeveloped'.
The way you describe it, it would still be illegal, but the reality is much worse and anyone who has been paying even the tiniest bit of attention knows that.
posted by bcd at 3:21 PM on November 9, 2023 [12 favorites]
I should add that Hamas is not serious about peace. While Netanyahu probably be pressured into a deal;
He doesn’t have to as long as there is no one to negotiate with. Israel isn’t the only country with the ability to shape Hamas towards peace. Iran has also worked to keep Hamas radicalized and block efforts to make peace for its own internal political reasons. If Iran put the kind of pressure on Hamas that the US put on Netanyahu we’d see progress.
posted by interogative mood at 3:25 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
He doesn’t have to as long as there is no one to negotiate with. Israel isn’t the only country with the ability to shape Hamas towards peace. Iran has also worked to keep Hamas radicalized and block efforts to make peace for its own internal political reasons. If Iran put the kind of pressure on Hamas that the US put on Netanyahu we’d see progress.
posted by interogative mood at 3:25 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I should add that Hamas is not serious about peace
Neither is Israel, or they wouldn't be annexing the West Bank and expanding settlements. Israel is doing a pretty good job of keeping Hamas radicalised on their own. (85% of Hamas fighters were orphaned by the IDF.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
Neither is Israel, or they wouldn't be annexing the West Bank and expanding settlements. Israel is doing a pretty good job of keeping Hamas radicalised on their own. (85% of Hamas fighters were orphaned by the IDF.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don’t disagree BCD that there have been efforts to depopulate villages through violence and in Jerusalem take over buildings with questionable property claims. More accurate would be to say that most of the settlements beyond the green line are on farmland, pasture and other undeveloped land. Just like most big new suburban developments everywhere.
posted by interogative mood at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 3:28 PM on November 9, 2023
To be clear, farmland and pastures already owned, and being used by, whom?
In my experience, yes, "most big new suburban developments everywhere" are build on formerly agricultural land. That process starts with the developers purchasing that land from the current owners at whatever rate the market will bear with no coercion beyond paying a good price. Do you believe that's what's currently happening in the West Bank or East Jerusalem?
(And that's ignoring everything you swept under the cover of 'questionable property claims', which is also far worse than your choice of language makes it seem.)
posted by bcd at 3:40 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
In my experience, yes, "most big new suburban developments everywhere" are build on formerly agricultural land. That process starts with the developers purchasing that land from the current owners at whatever rate the market will bear with no coercion beyond paying a good price. Do you believe that's what's currently happening in the West Bank or East Jerusalem?
(And that's ignoring everything you swept under the cover of 'questionable property claims', which is also far worse than your choice of language makes it seem.)
posted by bcd at 3:40 PM on November 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel’s parliament has passed an amendment to the country’s counterterrorism law that introduces the “consumption of terrorist materials” as a new criminal offence.
posted by bcd at 3:44 PM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by bcd at 3:44 PM on November 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile Israel has not stopped attempt to shrink the final side of a future Palestinian state by taking undeveloped parcels of farmland and wilderness in the West Bank and building housing for Jewish settlers
The above is such a disgusting distortion of what's actually been happening in the West Bank it's difficult to know where to begin. The person who made that appalling comment is trying to appear reasonable in this thread, but throws in outrageous spin like the above so often it's impossible to take anything they say seriously. The examples of Jewish settlers taking over established Palestinian homes after court battles that go back to 1948 are so frequent it's almost not worth the time to link them, but I'll post a few anyway.
Please remember that this user is manipulative and regularly distorts the on-the-ground reality of decades' worth of Israeli attacks on Palestinian rights.
posted by mediareport at 3:49 PM on November 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
The above is such a disgusting distortion of what's actually been happening in the West Bank it's difficult to know where to begin. The person who made that appalling comment is trying to appear reasonable in this thread, but throws in outrageous spin like the above so often it's impossible to take anything they say seriously. The examples of Jewish settlers taking over established Palestinian homes after court battles that go back to 1948 are so frequent it's almost not worth the time to link them, but I'll post a few anyway.
Please remember that this user is manipulative and regularly distorts the on-the-ground reality of decades' worth of Israeli attacks on Palestinian rights.
posted by mediareport at 3:49 PM on November 9, 2023 [20 favorites]
sotonohito - I see a similar, but even wider disconnect on the right, which views the current conflict as a global scale conflict between the 1.8 billion Muslims and 16 million Jews who have literally in the past, and are still in the present receiving attacks from all directions (Hezbollah to the North, Houthis from the South, Hamas from the West).
Each side garners support by portraying their cause as the "weaker / smaller" side that cannot possibly do any proportional wrong because the "other" side is bigger.
As for it being a conflict on a global scale - even in a country as far away as Malaysia - disturbing video emerged of pro-Hamas indoctrination in elementary schools where school kids watch adults brandish toy guns and hold up mock coffins with Palestinian and Hamas flags, or where elementary school kids are incited to step on the Israeli flag and hold up guns while wearing Arab desert scarves. In one context, well it's kids playing with guns. In another context, during an event that glorifies Hamas and calls for Israel's destruction, it's different.
And it's not like Malaysia hasn't been a nexus for terrorism in the past - the Kuala Lumpur Al-Qaeda Summit in 2000 included two eventual 9/11 hijackers, the mastermind behind the USS Cole bombing. The summit host was a Malaysian Army Captain, Yazid Sufaat, a Jemaah Islamiyah member who supplied explosives for their terror bombing attacks and was recruited by AQ to be their anthrax bioweapons expert due to his biochemistry background from the California State University.
posted by xdvesper at 3:51 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Each side garners support by portraying their cause as the "weaker / smaller" side that cannot possibly do any proportional wrong because the "other" side is bigger.
As for it being a conflict on a global scale - even in a country as far away as Malaysia - disturbing video emerged of pro-Hamas indoctrination in elementary schools where school kids watch adults brandish toy guns and hold up mock coffins with Palestinian and Hamas flags, or where elementary school kids are incited to step on the Israeli flag and hold up guns while wearing Arab desert scarves. In one context, well it's kids playing with guns. In another context, during an event that glorifies Hamas and calls for Israel's destruction, it's different.
And it's not like Malaysia hasn't been a nexus for terrorism in the past - the Kuala Lumpur Al-Qaeda Summit in 2000 included two eventual 9/11 hijackers, the mastermind behind the USS Cole bombing. The summit host was a Malaysian Army Captain, Yazid Sufaat, a Jemaah Islamiyah member who supplied explosives for their terror bombing attacks and was recruited by AQ to be their anthrax bioweapons expert due to his biochemistry background from the California State University.
posted by xdvesper at 3:51 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
In another context, during an event that glorifies Hamas and calls for Israel's destruction, it's different.
This is, of course, not good, but it’s not exceptional. We had tons of pro US military indoctrination in the US among school children during the first and second gulf war. It’s gross whenever it happens but it’s not something confined to those foreign Muslims over there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:26 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
This is, of course, not good, but it’s not exceptional. We had tons of pro US military indoctrination in the US among school children during the first and second gulf war. It’s gross whenever it happens but it’s not something confined to those foreign Muslims over there.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:26 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Also it’s not hard to find pro-Israel indoctrination in the US!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:28 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:28 PM on November 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
undeveloped parcels of farmland
Farmland, by definition, isn't undeveloped. It's been developed as a farm. Same with practically all pastures.
And it's arguably worse to redevelope farm land into housing in a location experiencing a blockade effecting food imports.
posted by Mitheral at 4:39 PM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Farmland, by definition, isn't undeveloped. It's been developed as a farm. Same with practically all pastures.
And it's arguably worse to redevelope farm land into housing in a location experiencing a blockade effecting food imports.
posted by Mitheral at 4:39 PM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’m not one keen to defend someone supporting the expropriation of someone’s land, but settlers are operating in the West Bank, not Gaza, and Gaza is under blockade, not the West Bank.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:53 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:53 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
In my experience, yes, "most big new suburban developments everywhere" are build on formerly agricultural land. That process starts with the developers purchasing that land from the current owners at whatever rate the market will bear with no coercion beyond paying a good price
Unfortunately under the Ottoman land and agricultural reforms the deeds/title to these properties went to people whose descendants often have nothing to do with the people who work and operate the land or live there. There is also a lot of title fraud and other legal shenanigans known to property developers around the world. One top of that old fashioned adverse possession.
Some examples:
- You find something the Israeli courts will accept as a land ownership record, find the descendants of the owner and their heirs, use a genealogy chart to apply Islamic inheritance rules to the descendants and buy up 51% of the shares; then force the others to sell.
- You find evidence that the parcel you want was Ottoman state owned land and you cut a political deal to get the Israeli government to sell it.
I don’t deny it’s wrong, illegal and needs to stop. In generalizing the action I was merely generalizing a complex topic in the interests of brevity.
How about we just assume people here are trying to converse in good faith and try to clarify inaccuracies through followups instead of rhetorical broadsides and attacks.
posted by interogative mood at 4:57 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Unfortunately under the Ottoman land and agricultural reforms the deeds/title to these properties went to people whose descendants often have nothing to do with the people who work and operate the land or live there. There is also a lot of title fraud and other legal shenanigans known to property developers around the world. One top of that old fashioned adverse possession.
Some examples:
- You find something the Israeli courts will accept as a land ownership record, find the descendants of the owner and their heirs, use a genealogy chart to apply Islamic inheritance rules to the descendants and buy up 51% of the shares; then force the others to sell.
- You find evidence that the parcel you want was Ottoman state owned land and you cut a political deal to get the Israeli government to sell it.
I don’t deny it’s wrong, illegal and needs to stop. In generalizing the action I was merely generalizing a complex topic in the interests of brevity.
How about we just assume people here are trying to converse in good faith and try to clarify inaccuracies through followups instead of rhetorical broadsides and attacks.
posted by interogative mood at 4:57 PM on November 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I apologize for the needlessly snarky anti-religious comment above. Like everyone else, I'm saddened and frustrated by the needless killing and conflict every day and it comes out in awkward ways. Because I am a secular American, I'm predisposed to see religion as a negative force. Obviously that's not the main cause of this conflict; it's territory and culture and occupation. Equally obviously, plenty of religious people in that region don't agree with what's going on. But as far as the (bad) organizations we see exacerbating this, we have one one side Hamas, whose charter states that they want an Islamic state in the region and who I think is cynically using religion as a way to recruit people; on the other, we have the current right-wing Israeli government who absolutely sees Jewish religion and culture as inherently superior and is viewing things through that lens. Hamas and the Israeli government are the ones bringing religion into it, not me, and as much as I try to respect people's beliefs and traditions, I categorically reject any religious or cultural interpretation that creates and persecutes Others.
Christianity, Judaism - "Thou shalt not kill".
Islam - "You shall not take life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law."
Neither party is doing a great job living up to their ideals.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:08 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Christianity, Judaism - "Thou shalt not kill".
Islam - "You shall not take life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law."
Neither party is doing a great job living up to their ideals.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:08 PM on November 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
on the other, we have the current right-wing Israeli government who absolutely sees Jewish religion and culture as inherently superior and is viewing things through that lens.
I appreciate toning down the snark, but your analysis is still way off. There are ways in which religion is a driving force of aspects of this conflict. Settlers in the West Bank certainly have religious motivations around wanting the full territory of the biblical Holy Land to be part of Israel. The altercations/provocations at Al-Aqsa are religiously motivated. But it's not coming from some place of Jewish supremacy. That's not really a thing in Judaism? It's not Christianity. 'Jewish' is an ethnicity, Israel isn't a theocracy, Zionism was originally a secular movement, most Israelis are descendants of refugees from either the Holocaust or the Islamic world rather than people who chose to move there for religious reasons alone, this conflict has been going on since long before the current Israeli administration, etc etc etc. Consider the possibility that the perspective of a secular American may be one with its own biases that are hindering your understanding of the situation.
posted by cosmic owl at 9:02 PM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
I appreciate toning down the snark, but your analysis is still way off. There are ways in which religion is a driving force of aspects of this conflict. Settlers in the West Bank certainly have religious motivations around wanting the full territory of the biblical Holy Land to be part of Israel. The altercations/provocations at Al-Aqsa are religiously motivated. But it's not coming from some place of Jewish supremacy. That's not really a thing in Judaism? It's not Christianity. 'Jewish' is an ethnicity, Israel isn't a theocracy, Zionism was originally a secular movement, most Israelis are descendants of refugees from either the Holocaust or the Islamic world rather than people who chose to move there for religious reasons alone, this conflict has been going on since long before the current Israeli administration, etc etc etc. Consider the possibility that the perspective of a secular American may be one with its own biases that are hindering your understanding of the situation.
posted by cosmic owl at 9:02 PM on November 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
How about we just assume people here are trying to converse in good faith
People arguing in good faith acknowledge when they're wrong and reply to corrections of their misstatements with an apology or an explanation, and try not to do it again. People who argue in bad faith do none of those things. I'm tired of correcting the nonsense you regularly slip into your contributions here, and you no longer get any benefit of the doubt from me.
posted by mediareport at 10:16 PM on November 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
People arguing in good faith acknowledge when they're wrong and reply to corrections of their misstatements with an apology or an explanation, and try not to do it again. People who argue in bad faith do none of those things. I'm tired of correcting the nonsense you regularly slip into your contributions here, and you no longer get any benefit of the doubt from me.
posted by mediareport at 10:16 PM on November 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
‘The Phone Doesn’t Stop’: Overwhelming Demands For A Cease-Fire Catch Democrats Off Guard
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:24 PM on November 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:24 PM on November 9, 2023 [9 favorites]
Recap for 9 Nov
🔴RECAP: #Israel #Palestine (as of 15:00 GMT 9 November)
1. At least 10 killed and 14 others wounded in an escalation of Israeli raids in the occupied West Bank city of Jenin.
2. Air strike carried out by Israel near al-Shifa hospital.
3. 8 hospitals bombed by Israel in the past 3 days.
4. Anti-Muslim hate crime on the rise in Germany.
5. Israeli air strikes have levelled more residential blocks in Gaza's Khan Younis.
6. Israeli police arrest a number of Palestinian politicians.
7. Turkey says it is prepared to take in and treat children in Gaza who have cancer.
8. Israeli authorities are currently holding 2,000 Palestinians without charge or trial say Amnesty International.
9. 99 Unrwa staff killed in Gaza since 7 October.
10. Explosions heard in the port city of Eilat, Israel.
11. Students at 28 universities across the UK are staging a walk out demanding a ceasefire in Gaza.
As of 10 November:
🔴 RECAP #Israel #Palestine (as of 07:00 GMT, 10 November)
1. The Palestinian death toll currently stands at 10,812 people including 4,412 children, according to the health ministry
2. Biden is being warned by US diplomats abroad that anger is growing amongst Arab countries over American support for Israel's assault on Gaza, several diplomatic cables have revealed
3. Thursday served as a worldwide day of action by activists, in which they called on demonstrators to hold as many rallies and protests as possible. Organisers listed nearly 100 actions that took place
4. While the US has maintained stalwart support of Israel amid its campaign in Gaza, Washington's office for Palestinian affairs issued criticism of Israel for demolishing the home of the Palestinian family of a young boy who was arrested for stabbing an Israeli border guard
5. Iran's foreign minister has warned that the expansion of the scope of the war in Gaza is inevitable
posted by cendawanita at 12:47 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
🔴RECAP: #Israel #Palestine (as of 15:00 GMT 9 November)
1. At least 10 killed and 14 others wounded in an escalation of Israeli raids in the occupied West Bank city of Jenin.
2. Air strike carried out by Israel near al-Shifa hospital.
3. 8 hospitals bombed by Israel in the past 3 days.
4. Anti-Muslim hate crime on the rise in Germany.
5. Israeli air strikes have levelled more residential blocks in Gaza's Khan Younis.
6. Israeli police arrest a number of Palestinian politicians.
7. Turkey says it is prepared to take in and treat children in Gaza who have cancer.
8. Israeli authorities are currently holding 2,000 Palestinians without charge or trial say Amnesty International.
9. 99 Unrwa staff killed in Gaza since 7 October.
10. Explosions heard in the port city of Eilat, Israel.
11. Students at 28 universities across the UK are staging a walk out demanding a ceasefire in Gaza.
As of 10 November:
🔴 RECAP #Israel #Palestine (as of 07:00 GMT, 10 November)
1. The Palestinian death toll currently stands at 10,812 people including 4,412 children, according to the health ministry
2. Biden is being warned by US diplomats abroad that anger is growing amongst Arab countries over American support for Israel's assault on Gaza, several diplomatic cables have revealed
3. Thursday served as a worldwide day of action by activists, in which they called on demonstrators to hold as many rallies and protests as possible. Organisers listed nearly 100 actions that took place
4. While the US has maintained stalwart support of Israel amid its campaign in Gaza, Washington's office for Palestinian affairs issued criticism of Israel for demolishing the home of the Palestinian family of a young boy who was arrested for stabbing an Israeli border guard
5. Iran's foreign minister has warned that the expansion of the scope of the war in Gaza is inevitable
posted by cendawanita at 12:47 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Emmanuel Macron breaks ranks to call for Gaza ceasefire in Israel-Hamas war
Looked it up because of this tweet: Can you imagine how far you have to go in colonizing and killing Arabs for France to tell you to stop?
posted by cendawanita at 12:50 AM on November 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
Looked it up because of this tweet: Can you imagine how far you have to go in colonizing and killing Arabs for France to tell you to stop?
posted by cendawanita at 12:50 AM on November 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
Belgium wants sanctions against Israel for Gaza bombings - deputy PM
posted by cendawanita at 12:54 AM on November 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:54 AM on November 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
Video from a Florida (US) State Assembly session:
In tears, Florida State Rep @AngieNixon begs for a ceasefire and asks how many dead Palestinians will be enough.
Republican @michellesalzman (@FLHouseRep) shouts out, "All of them."
posted by cendawanita at 1:01 AM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
In tears, Florida State Rep @AngieNixon begs for a ceasefire and asks how many dead Palestinians will be enough.
Republican @michellesalzman (@FLHouseRep) shouts out, "All of them."
posted by cendawanita at 1:01 AM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
UN General Assembly passes vote affirming Palestinian sovereignty over their natural resources
NEW YORK, Thursday, November 9, 2023 (WAFA) – The UN General Assembly's Committee on Economic and Financial Questions (Second Committee) has voted in favor of a resolution affirming the sovereignty of the Palestinian people over their natural resources.
The resolution affirms the permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources.
The resolution also calls on Israel, the occupying power, to cease the exploitation, damage, cause of loss or depletion and endangerment of natural resources in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan.
The resolution affirms that Israel's construction of the apartheid wall and settlements in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, constitutes a violation of international law, and deprives the Palestinian people of their natural resources, calling on Israel to abide by the legal advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice relating to the illegitimacy of the apartheid wall.
The resolution also reaffirms the call made by the UN Security Council in its resolution 2334, which urges states to distinguish between the territory of the State of Israel and the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories.
M.N
I tried validating this but this seems like a repost of the proceedings that took place in Dec 2022.
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 AM on November 10, 2023
NEW YORK, Thursday, November 9, 2023 (WAFA) – The UN General Assembly's Committee on Economic and Financial Questions (Second Committee) has voted in favor of a resolution affirming the sovereignty of the Palestinian people over their natural resources.
The resolution affirms the permanent sovereignty of the Palestinian people in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and of the Arab population in the occupied Syrian Golan over their natural resources.
The resolution also calls on Israel, the occupying power, to cease the exploitation, damage, cause of loss or depletion and endangerment of natural resources in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including East Jerusalem, and in the occupied Syrian Golan.
The resolution affirms that Israel's construction of the apartheid wall and settlements in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, constitutes a violation of international law, and deprives the Palestinian people of their natural resources, calling on Israel to abide by the legal advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice relating to the illegitimacy of the apartheid wall.
The resolution also reaffirms the call made by the UN Security Council in its resolution 2334, which urges states to distinguish between the territory of the State of Israel and the Israeli-occupied Palestinian territories.
M.N
I tried validating this but this seems like a repost of the proceedings that took place in Dec 2022.
posted by cendawanita at 1:10 AM on November 10, 2023
Threadreader version of this 8 Nov thread by Behind the Silence:
Everyone’s blood is boiling. We all know someone who was murdered, kidnapped, who is still missing. Many are talking about revenge, about erasing Gaza, referring to its residents as “2.5M terrorists,” discussing forcible transfer.
But what's actually happening on the ground?🧵
Gaza has been under an unprecedented bombardment for a month now. In the first two weeks alone, the Israeli Air Force dropped more bombs on Gaza than the US dropped on Afghanistan in an entire year. One explanation is Israel’s genuine need to remove threats to ground forces, >>>
but this doesn’t fully explain the scope of the bombings or their targets.
Our work is based on testimonies given by soldiers. Collecting and verifying these testimonies is a long and complex process, and it will be quite some time before we get a full and accurate picture >>>
of what’s happening on the ground. Still, statements made by senior Israeli officials and the extent of the destruction already raise suspicions that the army is following the same doctrine it used in previous operations: The Dahiya Doctrine.
>>>
The rest in the link. Original twitter link.
posted by cendawanita at 1:14 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Everyone’s blood is boiling. We all know someone who was murdered, kidnapped, who is still missing. Many are talking about revenge, about erasing Gaza, referring to its residents as “2.5M terrorists,” discussing forcible transfer.
But what's actually happening on the ground?🧵
Gaza has been under an unprecedented bombardment for a month now. In the first two weeks alone, the Israeli Air Force dropped more bombs on Gaza than the US dropped on Afghanistan in an entire year. One explanation is Israel’s genuine need to remove threats to ground forces, >>>
but this doesn’t fully explain the scope of the bombings or their targets.
Our work is based on testimonies given by soldiers. Collecting and verifying these testimonies is a long and complex process, and it will be quite some time before we get a full and accurate picture >>>
of what’s happening on the ground. Still, statements made by senior Israeli officials and the extent of the destruction already raise suspicions that the army is following the same doctrine it used in previous operations: The Dahiya Doctrine.
>>>
The rest in the link. Original twitter link.
posted by cendawanita at 1:14 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Joshua P. Hill (5 November) - The Palestine Realignment: I say this both to highlight the disconnect between the public and elected officials and to say that the focus of the protest wave and the discourse in 2020 was police killing thousands of people across this country without repercussions. And politicians responded by giving them millions and millions of dollars. They chose to fund unaccountable police departments, and now they choose to fund an unaccountable and immensely violent nation that is killing civilians by the thousands. The leaders of Israel are not hiding their intentions. They speak openly about driving Palestinians out of the West Bank, and Gaza. And their actions speak even louder. They bomb ambulances. They bomb refugee camps. They bomb Southern Gaza and change its label from “safe zone” to “safer zone.” They are not hiding their goals.
So people in the U.S. are left to wonder, what are the red lines for our elected officials?
Coincidentally, the following passages were shared from Franklin Foer's The Last Politician about the Biden WH and just released in September, as summarized in this tweet: In his book, THE LAST POLITICIAN, Franklin Foer shows when Biden finally demanded Netanyahu stop the bombing of Gaza in 2021:
“‘Hey, man, we're out of runway here,’ the president replied. ‘It's over.’
“And then, like that, it was. By the time the call ended, Netanyahu reluctantly agreed to a cease-fire that the Egyptians would broker.”
posted by cendawanita at 1:29 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
So people in the U.S. are left to wonder, what are the red lines for our elected officials?
Coincidentally, the following passages were shared from Franklin Foer's The Last Politician about the Biden WH and just released in September, as summarized in this tweet: In his book, THE LAST POLITICIAN, Franklin Foer shows when Biden finally demanded Netanyahu stop the bombing of Gaza in 2021:
“‘Hey, man, we're out of runway here,’ the president replied. ‘It's over.’
“And then, like that, it was. By the time the call ended, Netanyahu reluctantly agreed to a cease-fire that the Egyptians would broker.”
posted by cendawanita at 1:29 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's a very clear pov here but: @sitcomabed
a thread I like to call “it didnt start on October 7th” (did you condemn israel when any of these happened?) an incomplete list of attacks israel carried out prior to october 7th because idiots on here forget we’ve gone through 75+ years of ethnic cleansing. #FreePalestine
a 🧵:
I'm c+p-ing the ones within 20 days before Oct 7th (arbitrary choice by me) - there are photos and videos in the thread per tweet.
Did you condemn israel on October 6th? when they murdered Lubaid Dmaidy a 19 year old palestinian living in southern Nablus? The israeli soldiers raided his village and murdered him in the process. a day before october 7th did you condemn them?
Did you condemn israel on october 5th? when they murdered two palestinian men outside their village? Their names were Abdulrahman atta and Hudaifa faris. did they not matter to you?
Did you condemn israel on october 4th? when they burned Nablus and caused dozens of palestinians to get so severely burned and wounded they couldnt even get treated? did you condemn them when dozens of settlers came in to pillage this village and take over their homes?
Did you condemn israel on october 3rd? when 1040 israeli settlers raided al aqsa mosque and beat up palestinians?
did you condemn israel on october 3rd when they attacked a palestinian girl, brutally beating her up after they raided hebron?
Did you condemn israel on october 2nd when they assaulted elderly palestinian women and then proceeded to detain them after beating them up?
Did you condemn israel on September 29th merely days before October 7th?
did you get angry when israelis stormed al aqsa mosque injuring the elderly and beating up muslims praying? or did you ignore that
did you condemn israel on september 27th? when they assaulted another young palestinian woman (a normal occurrence as you can tell)
did you condemn israel on that same day when they detained a CHILD- did you know over 700 palestinian children are currently detained in israels prisons? oh but thats not considered morally corrupt is it??
did you condemn israel on september 24th when they murdered a palestinian man after they raided and injured multiple palestinians in a refugee camp?
did you condemn israel on september 22nd when they hit a palestinian child in the face with a stone? after they had raided his village?
did you condemn israel september 20th? when they bombed jenin refugee camp killing many palestinians including many of our palestinian youth and injuring hundreds? did you condemn them with that or is it not considered a terror attack when they do it
posted by cendawanita at 2:08 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
a thread I like to call “it didnt start on October 7th” (did you condemn israel when any of these happened?) an incomplete list of attacks israel carried out prior to october 7th because idiots on here forget we’ve gone through 75+ years of ethnic cleansing. #FreePalestine
a 🧵:
I'm c+p-ing the ones within 20 days before Oct 7th (arbitrary choice by me) - there are photos and videos in the thread per tweet.
Did you condemn israel on October 6th? when they murdered Lubaid Dmaidy a 19 year old palestinian living in southern Nablus? The israeli soldiers raided his village and murdered him in the process. a day before october 7th did you condemn them?
Did you condemn israel on october 5th? when they murdered two palestinian men outside their village? Their names were Abdulrahman atta and Hudaifa faris. did they not matter to you?
Did you condemn israel on october 4th? when they burned Nablus and caused dozens of palestinians to get so severely burned and wounded they couldnt even get treated? did you condemn them when dozens of settlers came in to pillage this village and take over their homes?
Did you condemn israel on october 3rd? when 1040 israeli settlers raided al aqsa mosque and beat up palestinians?
did you condemn israel on october 3rd when they attacked a palestinian girl, brutally beating her up after they raided hebron?
Did you condemn israel on october 2nd when they assaulted elderly palestinian women and then proceeded to detain them after beating them up?
Did you condemn israel on September 29th merely days before October 7th?
did you get angry when israelis stormed al aqsa mosque injuring the elderly and beating up muslims praying? or did you ignore that
did you condemn israel on september 27th? when they assaulted another young palestinian woman (a normal occurrence as you can tell)
did you condemn israel on that same day when they detained a CHILD- did you know over 700 palestinian children are currently detained in israels prisons? oh but thats not considered morally corrupt is it??
did you condemn israel on september 24th when they murdered a palestinian man after they raided and injured multiple palestinians in a refugee camp?
did you condemn israel on september 22nd when they hit a palestinian child in the face with a stone? after they had raided his village?
did you condemn israel september 20th? when they bombed jenin refugee camp killing many palestinians including many of our palestinian youth and injuring hundreds? did you condemn them with that or is it not considered a terror attack when they do it
posted by cendawanita at 2:08 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
"On November 7th the Israeli army denied that there was a shortage of food, water and other basic supplies in Gaza. It said that 665 lorries carrying 3,000 tonnes of food and 1.15m litres of water had entered the enclave since October 21st, when Israel lifted its veto on aid deliveries. The numbers sound impressive—until you divide them among 2.3m people over 18 days. The shipments work out to just 76 grams of food and 29ml of water per person a day."(The Economist, via archive. Emphasis not in the original)
posted by kmt at 3:58 AM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
While I was in commute, about 1.5 hours ago, this video from Al-Rantisi Hospital has been circulating where the people there are being told they have to evacuate (currently surrounded by Israeli forces) but there's no international protection available. This version has English subtitles.
posted by cendawanita at 4:36 AM on November 10, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 4:36 AM on November 10, 2023
I was curious about water more generally - CNN infographic using data from Palestinian Water Authority purchases and UN OCHA data.
In 2021:
- 90% of Gaza's water came from groundwater wells
- 4% from Gaza's 3 desalination plants
- 6% from Israel's 3 water pipelines
However, of the groundwater available, only 4% of it is fit for human consumption today due to over-extraction and subsequent seawater intrusion. It is mainly used for cleaning and washing.
---
Seems like even without considering the conflict, Gaza's population growth has completely outstripped the water production capacity of its groundwater wells - its population growing from about 350,000 in 1967 to 2 million at present day, a 470% increase, compared to the US which increased about 72% in that same time period.
Solar powered desalination technology would help Gaza achieve water independence, as their desalination plants get shut down due to lack of fuel. This would probably be the most direct and practical form of aid that international agencies could provide after the war, whether or not Hamas is the one governing Gaza.
From The Economist article linked above - "At a press conference on November 8th, Hamas officials blamed the UN for failing to provide enough aid to Gaza. They made no mention of their own role in starting the war, nor their responsibility for governing the enclave."
---
The current water situation in Gaza is dire - the latest UN OCHA update as at 9th Nov.
- All groundwater wells in Gaza are shut down due to lack of fuel
- No desalination or pipelines are active in the north
- There is degraded water supply in the south to existing residences - 2 pipelines operating for several hours per day providing potable water. The 2 desalination plants are effectively not operating due to lack of fuel.
For displaced persons in shelters in the south, the UNRWA has been providing 1.5 litres of potable water and 3-4 litres of non-potable water per person per day using a new desalination plant installed in partnership with UNICEF and water imports from Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
In 2021:
- 90% of Gaza's water came from groundwater wells
- 4% from Gaza's 3 desalination plants
- 6% from Israel's 3 water pipelines
However, of the groundwater available, only 4% of it is fit for human consumption today due to over-extraction and subsequent seawater intrusion. It is mainly used for cleaning and washing.
---
Seems like even without considering the conflict, Gaza's population growth has completely outstripped the water production capacity of its groundwater wells - its population growing from about 350,000 in 1967 to 2 million at present day, a 470% increase, compared to the US which increased about 72% in that same time period.
Solar powered desalination technology would help Gaza achieve water independence, as their desalination plants get shut down due to lack of fuel. This would probably be the most direct and practical form of aid that international agencies could provide after the war, whether or not Hamas is the one governing Gaza.
From The Economist article linked above - "At a press conference on November 8th, Hamas officials blamed the UN for failing to provide enough aid to Gaza. They made no mention of their own role in starting the war, nor their responsibility for governing the enclave."
---
The current water situation in Gaza is dire - the latest UN OCHA update as at 9th Nov.
- All groundwater wells in Gaza are shut down due to lack of fuel
- No desalination or pipelines are active in the north
- There is degraded water supply in the south to existing residences - 2 pipelines operating for several hours per day providing potable water. The 2 desalination plants are effectively not operating due to lack of fuel.
For displaced persons in shelters in the south, the UNRWA has been providing 1.5 litres of potable water and 3-4 litres of non-potable water per person per day using a new desalination plant installed in partnership with UNICEF and water imports from Egypt.
posted by xdvesper at 5:40 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Solar powered desalination technology would help Gaza achieve water independence,
Obviously this is a question that only matters once the violence is over, but do they have the land area for that much solar production within the Gaza Strip? Solar is great, but it takes up a lot of land and while in some cases you can do agrivoltaics (growing crops under the panels), it is more limited agriculture than what can be done otherwise. So there would be tradeoffs between the energy production and other uses for the limited land like agriculture, housing, etc.
Less cheerfully, I woke up feeling quite worried about the impending IDF advances into the hospitals themselves. The chance of something catastrophic, like the accidental or intentional detonation of Hamas munitions if in fact they are actually being stored underneath, or disproportionate bombing by the IDF, makes me nervous. I really hope not.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:11 AM on November 10, 2023
Obviously this is a question that only matters once the violence is over, but do they have the land area for that much solar production within the Gaza Strip? Solar is great, but it takes up a lot of land and while in some cases you can do agrivoltaics (growing crops under the panels), it is more limited agriculture than what can be done otherwise. So there would be tradeoffs between the energy production and other uses for the limited land like agriculture, housing, etc.
Less cheerfully, I woke up feeling quite worried about the impending IDF advances into the hospitals themselves. The chance of something catastrophic, like the accidental or intentional detonation of Hamas munitions if in fact they are actually being stored underneath, or disproportionate bombing by the IDF, makes me nervous. I really hope not.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:11 AM on November 10, 2023
Solar probably not the best idea given that the IDF can just drop a bomb on your panels and knock out both your electricity and clean water with one US made bomb.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:55 AM on November 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:55 AM on November 10, 2023 [9 favorites]
5. Iran's foreign minister has warned that the expansion of the scope of the war in Gaza is inevitable
This is utterly terrifying. China is absolutely looking for a partner for a second front in a war against the United States. Iran would absolutely be a partner in that war if it expands and brings the US into direct conflict with, or worse, a ground invasion of Iran.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:12 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is utterly terrifying. China is absolutely looking for a partner for a second front in a war against the United States. Iran would absolutely be a partner in that war if it expands and brings the US into direct conflict with, or worse, a ground invasion of Iran.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:12 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Shifa Hospital has been bombed again, along with other hospitals in Gaza.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:20 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:20 AM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
No ‘export of workers’ to Israel, say trade unions in India
- All major trade unions have called on the govt to scrap the agreement with Israel & appealed to workers to boycott Israeli products and to refuse to handle Israeli cargo
I see Steve Herman reporting it this way but the link he provided I can't find the reference (it's a liveblog): Secretary of State Blinken, in India, says “far too many” Palestinians have died amid Israel’s war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip
Fedi post about union action across Canada.
Post from an academic about Meir Baruchin: The most important thing is what is going on in Gaza. I already have an opinion about that, and so do you, so I'm not going to go into it.
What I wanted to mention is that a long time (Jewish) Jerusalem activist, Meir Baruchin, was arrested yesterday and charged with offenses related to 'lowering the morale' of the IDF. He is being held for 7 days, after which they intend to charge him for crimes punishable for up to 10 years in prison.
The authorities have not confirmed, but journalist Nir Hasson (who works for Haaretz) believes them to be these four posts, documenting some of the innocent civilians killed in Gaza: https://nitter.net/nirhasson/status/1722697670207098917
[Edit: I will come back to confirm this once it is confirmed - it is possible there were some other posts or statements, Nir is taking an educated guess.]
You can see for yourself with the assistance of Google Translate that these posts do not call for violence, or even for a ceasefire, but merely memorialize some of the victims in Gaza.
Yesterday and today were attempted small protests which were violently broken up by police.
I am not a journalist. I do not intend to say anything more about this case right now because I do not want to run the risk of violating the law myself.
(Couple that with this report from Mondoweiss)
On twt, in terms of coverage on the ground it seems like Israeli protests against the military attacks gets turnout but there was a right-wing pro-settler one and the only ones who turned up were counterprotestors.
A Liberatory Demand from the Queers in Palestine: We refuse the instrumentalization of our queerness, our bodies, and the violence we face as queer people to demonize and dehumanize our communities, especially in service of imperial and genocidal acts. We refuse that Palestinian sexuality and Palestinian attitudes towards diverse sexualities become parameters for assigning humanity to any colonized society. We deserve life because we are human, with the multitude of our imperfections, and not because of our proximity to colonial modes of liberal humanity. We refuse colonial and imperialist tactics that seek to alienate us from our society and alienate our society from us, on the basis of our queerness. We are fighting interconnected systems of oppression, including patriarchy and capitalism, and our dreams of autonomy, community, and liberation are inherently tied to our desire for self-determination. No queer liberation can be achieved with settler-colonization, and no queer solidarity can be fostered if it stands blind to the racialized, capitalist, fascist, and imperial structures that dominate us.
----
China is absolutely looking for a partner for a second front in a war against the United States. Iran would absolutely be a partner in that war if it expands and brings the US into direct conflict with, or worse, a ground invasion of Iran.
Coincidentally some breaking news first seen in an al-Jazeera fedibot, Biden and Xi will be meeting on Nov 15.
posted by cendawanita at 7:26 AM on November 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
- All major trade unions have called on the govt to scrap the agreement with Israel & appealed to workers to boycott Israeli products and to refuse to handle Israeli cargo
I see Steve Herman reporting it this way but the link he provided I can't find the reference (it's a liveblog): Secretary of State Blinken, in India, says “far too many” Palestinians have died amid Israel’s war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip
Fedi post about union action across Canada.
Post from an academic about Meir Baruchin: The most important thing is what is going on in Gaza. I already have an opinion about that, and so do you, so I'm not going to go into it.
What I wanted to mention is that a long time (Jewish) Jerusalem activist, Meir Baruchin, was arrested yesterday and charged with offenses related to 'lowering the morale' of the IDF. He is being held for 7 days, after which they intend to charge him for crimes punishable for up to 10 years in prison.
The authorities have not confirmed, but journalist Nir Hasson (who works for Haaretz) believes them to be these four posts, documenting some of the innocent civilians killed in Gaza: https://nitter.net/nirhasson/status/1722697670207098917
[Edit: I will come back to confirm this once it is confirmed - it is possible there were some other posts or statements, Nir is taking an educated guess.]
You can see for yourself with the assistance of Google Translate that these posts do not call for violence, or even for a ceasefire, but merely memorialize some of the victims in Gaza.
Yesterday and today were attempted small protests which were violently broken up by police.
I am not a journalist. I do not intend to say anything more about this case right now because I do not want to run the risk of violating the law myself.
(Couple that with this report from Mondoweiss)
On twt, in terms of coverage on the ground it seems like Israeli protests against the military attacks gets turnout but there was a right-wing pro-settler one and the only ones who turned up were counterprotestors.
A Liberatory Demand from the Queers in Palestine: We refuse the instrumentalization of our queerness, our bodies, and the violence we face as queer people to demonize and dehumanize our communities, especially in service of imperial and genocidal acts. We refuse that Palestinian sexuality and Palestinian attitudes towards diverse sexualities become parameters for assigning humanity to any colonized society. We deserve life because we are human, with the multitude of our imperfections, and not because of our proximity to colonial modes of liberal humanity. We refuse colonial and imperialist tactics that seek to alienate us from our society and alienate our society from us, on the basis of our queerness. We are fighting interconnected systems of oppression, including patriarchy and capitalism, and our dreams of autonomy, community, and liberation are inherently tied to our desire for self-determination. No queer liberation can be achieved with settler-colonization, and no queer solidarity can be fostered if it stands blind to the racialized, capitalist, fascist, and imperial structures that dominate us.
----
China is absolutely looking for a partner for a second front in a war against the United States. Iran would absolutely be a partner in that war if it expands and brings the US into direct conflict with, or worse, a ground invasion of Iran.
Coincidentally some breaking news first seen in an al-Jazeera fedibot, Biden and Xi will be meeting on Nov 15.
posted by cendawanita at 7:26 AM on November 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Co-related tweets:
Ghada Sasa: I was recently attacked by Zionists & suspended from @CJPME [Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East] largely b/c I explained how Israel fired at its own civilians who were at the rave. I even cited an Israeli witness, but it's not until the *state* of Israel admits its wrongdoing that we as Palestinians are believed.
(This was in qt to a twt about the official news regarding the casualties on Oct 7 discussed upthread)
Davide Mastracci: I reviewed every name here with @AlexCosh_. There are about 1,036 of them, less than what Haaretz currently lists. About 36% of the people are soldiers/security/etc. Their names appear to be more than half of the total [the infographic the Israeli govt has been posting] because the titles attached to them mean they take more space
With that said, the names toward the bottom are primarily soldier casualties, unlike the rest. If the names listed are in order of confirmation, this could mean the remaining hundreds are overwhelmingly made up of soldiers, not civilians. But this is just speculation.
I should also add that we used an image to text program to pull the text from the image, and then went through it all, cross-referencing with the Haaretz database to ensure names were divided properly. It’s possible the program didn’t pull all the text, but it appears it did.
An open letter to Israelis from Israelis: We deserve the truth about October 7 - Editor’s Note: The following statement was written by a group of Israeli citizens who want to remain anonymous for their safety and out of fear of government reprisal.
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ghada Sasa: I was recently attacked by Zionists & suspended from @CJPME [Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East] largely b/c I explained how Israel fired at its own civilians who were at the rave. I even cited an Israeli witness, but it's not until the *state* of Israel admits its wrongdoing that we as Palestinians are believed.
(This was in qt to a twt about the official news regarding the casualties on Oct 7 discussed upthread)
Davide Mastracci: I reviewed every name here with @AlexCosh_. There are about 1,036 of them, less than what Haaretz currently lists. About 36% of the people are soldiers/security/etc. Their names appear to be more than half of the total [the infographic the Israeli govt has been posting] because the titles attached to them mean they take more space
With that said, the names toward the bottom are primarily soldier casualties, unlike the rest. If the names listed are in order of confirmation, this could mean the remaining hundreds are overwhelmingly made up of soldiers, not civilians. But this is just speculation.
I should also add that we used an image to text program to pull the text from the image, and then went through it all, cross-referencing with the Haaretz database to ensure names were divided properly. It’s possible the program didn’t pull all the text, but it appears it did.
An open letter to Israelis from Israelis: We deserve the truth about October 7 - Editor’s Note: The following statement was written by a group of Israeli citizens who want to remain anonymous for their safety and out of fear of government reprisal.
posted by cendawanita at 7:40 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are some rooftop solar installations in Gaza but nothing grid scale. Iirc a lot the farms near the Rafah crossing were wrecked when they Egyptians pumped sea water into the smuggling tunnels. It might be possible to convert that area to a solar farm. The large natural gas field discovered off the coast is probably the most likely source of abundant power for desalination and energy independence for Gaza.
None of this is possible as long as the war continues.
posted by interogative mood at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
None of this is possible as long as the war continues.
posted by interogative mood at 9:05 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Solar powered desalination technology would help Gaza achieve water independence...This would probably be the most direct and practical form of aid that international agencies could provide after the war...
Yet another of those "good lord I don't know where to begin" posts. In the West Bank, for example, Israel has been deliberately crushing solar energy for years. From 2017: This Palestinian village had solar power — until Israeli soldiers took it away [gift link]
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
About Gaza, from 2021: Israel has also restricted the entry of solar panels and batteries, hampering efforts to develop alternative energy sources that would give Gaza a degree of energy autonomy.
More:
Destruction of Solar Panels in Area C of the West Bank, An Attempt to Undermine Palestinian Development of Sustainable Energy
And more, from this week: Israeli forces target solar panels at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital
posted by mediareport at 9:24 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Yet another of those "good lord I don't know where to begin" posts. In the West Bank, for example, Israel has been deliberately crushing solar energy for years. From 2017: This Palestinian village had solar power — until Israeli soldiers took it away [gift link]
Israel seizes solar panels donated to Palestinians by Dutch government
About Gaza, from 2021: Israel has also restricted the entry of solar panels and batteries, hampering efforts to develop alternative energy sources that would give Gaza a degree of energy autonomy.
More:
Destruction of Solar Panels in Area C of the West Bank, An Attempt to Undermine Palestinian Development of Sustainable Energy
And more, from this week: Israeli forces target solar panels at Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital
posted by mediareport at 9:24 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
yeah, the only reason why the desalination plants are turned off right now is that Israel blockaded the fuel. It's not like Gaza just naturally doesn't have access to reliable electricity, it's a deliberately designed situation. It's very hard to engineer your way out of a dependence when that dependence has, to some extent, been created and enforced intentionally.
posted by BungaDunga at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:48 AM on November 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Joshua P. Hill:I’ll never forget how Israel tried to get the whole world to debate whether or not they bombed one hospital, just to then relentlessly bomb hospitals.
Palestine Red Crescent: 🚨Israeli Occupation forces opened fire on the intensive care unit at Al-Quds hospital.
#AlQudsHospital
#NotATarget
#Gaza
Arwa Damon (3 hours ago): Dr @GhassanAbuSitt1 just texted me this:
(Screenshot of text message:
This is the darkest hour. The health system has collapsed.
Post this.)
posted by cendawanita at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Palestine Red Crescent: 🚨Israeli Occupation forces opened fire on the intensive care unit at Al-Quds hospital.
#AlQudsHospital
#NotATarget
#Gaza
Arwa Damon (3 hours ago): Dr @GhassanAbuSitt1 just texted me this:
(Screenshot of text message:
This is the darkest hour. The health system has collapsed.
Post this.)
posted by cendawanita at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
The messaging from the Biden administration is shifting quickly. The current headline in the NYT quotes Blinken criticizing the number of deaths, which wasn't their key message just a few days ago. I don't know how much this translates into actual pressure on the Israeli government to change course, but from here it looks like the unlimited green light is coming to an end sooner rather than later.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 10:42 AM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hamas is storing about 200,000 gallons of fuel. They’ve decided that unrestricted shelling of Israeli civilians with their rockets is a better use of Gaza’s fuel stores.
One of those rockets hit Al Shiffa today.
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2023
One of those rockets hit Al Shiffa today.
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 AM on November 10, 2023
Strictly within this episode the two rocket attack-destruction cases I've seen shared by Israelis that broke into the more Palestinian accounts I see are this kindergarten one and this apartment one. I'm curious as to why there's such a difference in payload performance between those the Iron Dome didn't manage to intercept and the ones misfiring in Gaza.
I'll go sleep now.
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'll go sleep now.
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 AM on November 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
They seem to imply that parts of the Israeli civilian casualties on Oct 7 are from friendly fire by Apache helicopters
video via Twitter
posted by Lanark at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2023
video via Twitter
posted by Lanark at 11:08 AM on November 10, 2023
We get it. Hamas is not taking care of the civilians in Gaza. Pretty obvious. Thanks, interogative mood.
But Israel is slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza by the thousands, and even if one Hamas rocket misfired around Shiffa, what about the numerous accounts of continuous bombardment of the hospital from those inside the hospital? All misfires? Misfires hitting all of the other hospitals as well?
posted by pt68 at 11:10 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
But Israel is slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza by the thousands, and even if one Hamas rocket misfired around Shiffa, what about the numerous accounts of continuous bombardment of the hospital from those inside the hospital? All misfires? Misfires hitting all of the other hospitals as well?
posted by pt68 at 11:10 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
What is the goal of the friendly fire stuff? If 20 (or more I guess?) Israeli citizens were killed by friendly fire during the incursion from Gaza that would be completely unsurprising given the scale and wouldn't change anything as far as I can tell. Is this some kind of weird "Oct 7th was an inside job!" conspiracy?
posted by Justinian at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:36 AM on November 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
The "friendly fire stuff" is important; it's been discussed openly in Israeli/Hebrew media but is apparently beyond the pale to talk about in the U.S. That Israeli military forces, after being taken totally by surprise and in the heat of battle, made the decision to send missiles into buildings they knew contained Israeli citizens may not matter much to you, but I guarantee you it matters a whole lot to the relatives of those citizens, and will have major ramifications for Israeli politics in the future.
We should be talking about it openly, and often, as we look at this war and the horrible decisions being made about its conduct. Attempts to shut down that discussion are reprehensible.
Edit to note: "apparently made the decision." Thanks.
posted by mediareport at 11:43 AM on November 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
We should be talking about it openly, and often, as we look at this war and the horrible decisions being made about its conduct. Attempts to shut down that discussion are reprehensible.
Edit to note: "apparently made the decision." Thanks.
posted by mediareport at 11:43 AM on November 10, 2023 [15 favorites]
Hamas is storing about 200,000 gallons of fuel. They’ve decided that unrestricted shelling of Israeli civilians with their rockets is a better use of Gaza’s fuel stores.
I don't support Hamas' actual actions, but surely any national military force would hang onto whatever reserves of fuel they had if they were fighting a war, especially a war that is pretty clearly an existential one for that force. This isn't a "Big Bad Hamas" thing, this is what every military organization would do, including the IDF and US military. Civilians rationing (whether they want to or not) so that vital goods go to the military to fight the war is always how it goes.
Anyway, the whole "but Hamas has lots of fuel" thing just means that the fuel blockade isn't hurting who it's nominally supposed to hurt. If Hamas has lots of fuel then what's the point of the blockade?
posted by BungaDunga at 11:44 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
I don't support Hamas' actual actions, but surely any national military force would hang onto whatever reserves of fuel they had if they were fighting a war, especially a war that is pretty clearly an existential one for that force. This isn't a "Big Bad Hamas" thing, this is what every military organization would do, including the IDF and US military. Civilians rationing (whether they want to or not) so that vital goods go to the military to fight the war is always how it goes.
Anyway, the whole "but Hamas has lots of fuel" thing just means that the fuel blockade isn't hurting who it's nominally supposed to hurt. If Hamas has lots of fuel then what's the point of the blockade?
posted by BungaDunga at 11:44 AM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
I'm curious as to why there's such a difference in payload performance between those the Iron Dome didn't manage to intercept and the ones misfiring in Gaza.
Misfires that fall short are full of extremely combustible fuel. Ones that make through the Iron Dome are empty except for their warhead.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Misfires that fall short are full of extremely combustible fuel. Ones that make through the Iron Dome are empty except for their warhead.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:48 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I do think it's worth remembering, and not part of Israeli apologia, that Hamas appears to view the population of Gaza as expendable.
Obviously Hamas couldn't stop the bombings immediately, the entire "Hamas can surrender" bit is nonsense and even if they wanted to how they could even do so in a manner that would actually end Netanyahu's determination to exploit the opportunity he's been given to push forward with his plan for eradicating the Palestinian presence in Gaza is unknown.
But there's Palestinians outside Gaza, and Hamas knows it can recruit from those populations because it already does. A little bit of spin and many people won't even think about the the role Hamas played in the devastation in Gaza.
I don't think either Netanyahu and his associates nor Hamas actually PLANNED for the 10/7 attacks to result in Gaza being razed and a huge percentage of the population being killed, but as long as you think like a total villain who doesn't care about human life what's happening now is the best possible thing for both Hamas and the Israeli right wing.
Netanyahu and his associates get to ride the wave of popular wartime leadership, I doubt the current flare up of Israeli citizens pushing against him and blaming him for the attack will last much longer than the pushback against Bush and his obvious dropping of the ball did after 9/11. Even more important, Netanyahu will be much closer to achieving the often stated end goal of spreading Israel from the river to the sea and have a clear path forward to achieving that end as the slaughter in Gaza continues.
The murder, threats, evictions, and land theft going on in the West Bank are accelerating and they've already been going rapidly for years. I have no idea how long exactly it will be, but if it's even five more years before the Palestinian population is effectively eradicated I'll be surprised.
And he'll get, at the very least, to break up Gaza and start the process of West Bankifying it, if he doesn't just get to take it over in a single victorious military campaign.
The political boost from finally succeeding in wiping out Palestinians in the West Bank and eliminating Gaza as a center of Palestinian culture and resistance will make him Prime Minister for life if he wants it.
And on the Hamas side they get to have even more martyrs, an even bigger and more recent atrocity they can exploit for membership drives and donations, and its clear they didn't really care much about holding Gaza so they must have redoubts elsewhere and plans for a more flexible, leaner, meaner, form for Hamas to take. If losing Gaza worried Hamas they'd be doing everything they could to get a ceasefire, they aren't so they must not worry too much about a future where Gaza formally belongs to Israel.
The only people who lose are the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who will be murdered, starved, raped, tortured, and driven out. And its clear that no one with any power at all cares about them.
I don't believe that the path through Gazan genocide is inevitable, but since no one is trying to stop it then it will happen.
Because ultimately it isn't just that Israel views the Gazan population as an infection to be cleaned, or that Hamas views the Gazan population as expendable in pursuit of their bigger goals. The ENTIRE WORLD self evidently views the Gazan population as expendable. The purpose of a system is what it does, our international system is producing genocide in Gaza, therefore the purpose of our international system is to produce a genocide in Gaza.
posted by sotonohito at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Obviously Hamas couldn't stop the bombings immediately, the entire "Hamas can surrender" bit is nonsense and even if they wanted to how they could even do so in a manner that would actually end Netanyahu's determination to exploit the opportunity he's been given to push forward with his plan for eradicating the Palestinian presence in Gaza is unknown.
But there's Palestinians outside Gaza, and Hamas knows it can recruit from those populations because it already does. A little bit of spin and many people won't even think about the the role Hamas played in the devastation in Gaza.
I don't think either Netanyahu and his associates nor Hamas actually PLANNED for the 10/7 attacks to result in Gaza being razed and a huge percentage of the population being killed, but as long as you think like a total villain who doesn't care about human life what's happening now is the best possible thing for both Hamas and the Israeli right wing.
Netanyahu and his associates get to ride the wave of popular wartime leadership, I doubt the current flare up of Israeli citizens pushing against him and blaming him for the attack will last much longer than the pushback against Bush and his obvious dropping of the ball did after 9/11. Even more important, Netanyahu will be much closer to achieving the often stated end goal of spreading Israel from the river to the sea and have a clear path forward to achieving that end as the slaughter in Gaza continues.
The murder, threats, evictions, and land theft going on in the West Bank are accelerating and they've already been going rapidly for years. I have no idea how long exactly it will be, but if it's even five more years before the Palestinian population is effectively eradicated I'll be surprised.
And he'll get, at the very least, to break up Gaza and start the process of West Bankifying it, if he doesn't just get to take it over in a single victorious military campaign.
The political boost from finally succeeding in wiping out Palestinians in the West Bank and eliminating Gaza as a center of Palestinian culture and resistance will make him Prime Minister for life if he wants it.
And on the Hamas side they get to have even more martyrs, an even bigger and more recent atrocity they can exploit for membership drives and donations, and its clear they didn't really care much about holding Gaza so they must have redoubts elsewhere and plans for a more flexible, leaner, meaner, form for Hamas to take. If losing Gaza worried Hamas they'd be doing everything they could to get a ceasefire, they aren't so they must not worry too much about a future where Gaza formally belongs to Israel.
The only people who lose are the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank who will be murdered, starved, raped, tortured, and driven out. And its clear that no one with any power at all cares about them.
I don't believe that the path through Gazan genocide is inevitable, but since no one is trying to stop it then it will happen.
Because ultimately it isn't just that Israel views the Gazan population as an infection to be cleaned, or that Hamas views the Gazan population as expendable in pursuit of their bigger goals. The ENTIRE WORLD self evidently views the Gazan population as expendable. The purpose of a system is what it does, our international system is producing genocide in Gaza, therefore the purpose of our international system is to produce a genocide in Gaza.
posted by sotonohito at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
and supposing Hamas just opened up its fuel tanks, then what? They'll still run out eventually. But the blockade will still be justifiable under the same arguments- any fuel let in could be used for Hamas rockets. So "Hamas should just release its fuel reserves" is not actually a solution. The only circumstances in which Israel will turn the fuel back on is Hamas' capitulation.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2023
posted by BungaDunga at 11:53 AM on November 10, 2023
200,000 gallons of fuel divided by 2,000,000 people in Gaza works out to 0.1 gallons of fuel per Gazan. So let's not spread IDF propaganda about how there would be plenty of supplies if only Hamas would release its stockpiles.
posted by sotonohito at 11:54 AM on November 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 11:54 AM on November 10, 2023 [19 favorites]
Misfires that fall short are full of extremely combustible fuel. Ones that make through the Iron Dome are empty except for their warhead.
Yep, this is why planes that must make emergency landings will dump their fuel if they have time to do so. The fuel tank is basically a bomb.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yep, this is why planes that must make emergency landings will dump their fuel if they have time to do so. The fuel tank is basically a bomb.
posted by Justinian at 11:57 AM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
So, Justinian, are you now convinced that discussing incidents of Israeli friendly fire during the horrible Hamas attacks are not "some kind of weird conspiracy?" Or do you have further questions about that?
posted by mediareport at 12:21 PM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 12:21 PM on November 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Without getting into the details about the friendly fire incidents (which are undoubtably true on some level, it's statistically unrealistic to think this didn't happen at all, it's just a matter of how much), it's interesting how much Israel protests that it is Hamas rockets hitting Gaza hospitals. Often in these situations the accuser is very much guilty of what they accuse the other side of doing, i.e. killing their own.
posted by ssg at 12:58 PM on November 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by ssg at 12:58 PM on November 10, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean, it is the case that Hamas is and has been firing thousands of rockets at Israel, and some of those fall short. That's not new to this war; that's been the case in every previous flare-up. It's also been something Israel has been pointing out in every previous flare-up. I don't think that's evidence of projection.
There is a lot of outrage in Israel right now. I don't think Netanyahu's position is nearly as secure as some people here seem to. This is very, very different from 9/11. Security is everything in Israeli politics. There was already a lot of civil unrest in Israel this year regarding Netanyahu's judicial reforms. He's polling at 27% right now. I wouldn't conflate support for the war (polling at 50% as of a couple of weeks ago) with support for Netanyahu, and especially with support for the current governing coalition.
I think it is important not to take the rhetoric and positions of diaspora Zionists as representative of Israeli sentiment. I'll add the disclaimer that this is based on my personal observations. But there is a very significant difference between Israelis and diaspora Zionists. The former live there, and the latter don't. This is significant for a few reasons:
1. Diaspora Zionists have no genuine stake in Israeli politics. They're not affected by any domestic policy issues. They are much more inclined to be supportive of any Israeli administration. Right-wing governments will appeal to them more because they do more posturing and present an image of a "stronger" Israel.
2. Most Israelis have, like, met a Palestinian ever. Obviously there's a large contingent of Islamophobic, hateful, murderous — well, I don't have the words. But there is also more recognition among Israelis, relative to diaspora Zionists, that any solution to the conflict will still involve at a minimum being neighbors with Palestinians. Or at least there was before October 7th.
3. Diaspora Zionists, especially religious diaspora Zionists, are in a bind. Israel is the Jewish state, the Holy Land, quite literally the center of the world to them. But they don't live there. They don't want to live there. They like their lives in America or England or Australia or wherever they live where it is still tolerable to be Jewish. They like their jobs and their communities and speaking English or whatever their native language is. If they moved to Israel they would have to achieve sufficient fluency in Hebrew such that the daily prayers would be fully intelligible to them, which is tedious. Their job prospects would be worse, Amazon deliveries would be vastly more expensive, etc etc. But Israel is the Holy Land! The Jewish state! Their only way to reconcile it is to make support for Israel the single focus of their existence. They have to convince themselves they're doing more or at least enough for Israel by supporting it in the diaspora so they can justify their safe easy lives in the diaspora. They need to take the most extreme pro-Israel positions they possibly can, to the most unhinged levels, to justify their own life choices. Israelis don't have that problem. The problems they have are Israel's actual problems.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:47 PM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is a lot of outrage in Israel right now. I don't think Netanyahu's position is nearly as secure as some people here seem to. This is very, very different from 9/11. Security is everything in Israeli politics. There was already a lot of civil unrest in Israel this year regarding Netanyahu's judicial reforms. He's polling at 27% right now. I wouldn't conflate support for the war (polling at 50% as of a couple of weeks ago) with support for Netanyahu, and especially with support for the current governing coalition.
I think it is important not to take the rhetoric and positions of diaspora Zionists as representative of Israeli sentiment. I'll add the disclaimer that this is based on my personal observations. But there is a very significant difference between Israelis and diaspora Zionists. The former live there, and the latter don't. This is significant for a few reasons:
1. Diaspora Zionists have no genuine stake in Israeli politics. They're not affected by any domestic policy issues. They are much more inclined to be supportive of any Israeli administration. Right-wing governments will appeal to them more because they do more posturing and present an image of a "stronger" Israel.
2. Most Israelis have, like, met a Palestinian ever. Obviously there's a large contingent of Islamophobic, hateful, murderous — well, I don't have the words. But there is also more recognition among Israelis, relative to diaspora Zionists, that any solution to the conflict will still involve at a minimum being neighbors with Palestinians. Or at least there was before October 7th.
3. Diaspora Zionists, especially religious diaspora Zionists, are in a bind. Israel is the Jewish state, the Holy Land, quite literally the center of the world to them. But they don't live there. They don't want to live there. They like their lives in America or England or Australia or wherever they live where it is still tolerable to be Jewish. They like their jobs and their communities and speaking English or whatever their native language is. If they moved to Israel they would have to achieve sufficient fluency in Hebrew such that the daily prayers would be fully intelligible to them, which is tedious. Their job prospects would be worse, Amazon deliveries would be vastly more expensive, etc etc. But Israel is the Holy Land! The Jewish state! Their only way to reconcile it is to make support for Israel the single focus of their existence. They have to convince themselves they're doing more or at least enough for Israel by supporting it in the diaspora so they can justify their safe easy lives in the diaspora. They need to take the most extreme pro-Israel positions they possibly can, to the most unhinged levels, to justify their own life choices. Israelis don't have that problem. The problems they have are Israel's actual problems.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:47 PM on November 10, 2023 [12 favorites]
Well, doesn't this friendly fire thing exactly answer all those criticisms about Israel being hypocrites, that they wouldn't accept collateral damage in the pursuit of destroying Hamas if it was Israeli civilians in the line of fire instead if Palestinian? When an armed group is actively firing on you and taking hostages, eliminating them is a matter of utmost priority.
As the interview excerpt pointed out, they got a call from a basement of one of the houses saying Hamas were trying to break in and slaughter everyone inside. Fair call to fire on the house hoping to scare away / kill the invaders and hope the civilians in the basement have a chance to live. This doesn't sound like anything controversial.
Hamas were disguising themselves as civilians and walking calmly from house to house to blend in. Deliberately blending in with civilians is illegal for a very good reason, because it significantly raises the chance of civilian casualties, as is using medical infrastructure to shield military operations.
posted by xdvesper at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2023
As the interview excerpt pointed out, they got a call from a basement of one of the houses saying Hamas were trying to break in and slaughter everyone inside. Fair call to fire on the house hoping to scare away / kill the invaders and hope the civilians in the basement have a chance to live. This doesn't sound like anything controversial.
Hamas were disguising themselves as civilians and walking calmly from house to house to blend in. Deliberately blending in with civilians is illegal for a very good reason, because it significantly raises the chance of civilian casualties, as is using medical infrastructure to shield military operations.
posted by xdvesper at 2:38 PM on November 10, 2023
To add to cosmic owl's post, a poll came out today showing that "66% [of Israelis] in favor of a humanitarian ceasefire in exchange to release of the hostages" (link to source, tweet by an Israeli journalist who writes for Haaretz).
posted by coffeecat at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 2:45 PM on November 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
"because we had to kill the terrorists" still isn't a good reason to kill civilians, no matter who is doing it.
posted by Jarcat at 2:46 PM on November 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by Jarcat at 2:46 PM on November 10, 2023 [10 favorites]
but surely any national military force would hang onto whatever reserves of fuel they had if they were fighting a war, especially a war that is pretty clearly an existential one for that force.
Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan Fact Sheet. DOD.
On August 25, 2022, the Department of Defense (DoD) released its Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan (CHMR-AP)
(PDF)which lays out a series of major actions DoD will implement to mitigate and respond to civilian harm."
Well, your guessing or not provding sources for your assertion, which is partly invalid as The U.S. has not faced an existential threat like the Palestinians in a while part of this fallacy encompasses the size of the United States compared to Palestine and Israel. the whole point is to evacuate your civilians in a war zone so they will not face the existential threat. however, the Palestinian people have nowhere to really flee even after 30 some days. and whose fault is that.
please just don't throw out assertions without some background and context rather than whataboutism in comparative conjecture. to me, it dilutes a thread, and I'm not Innocent of this, in the past but not in these threads, with not only partially incorrect information, it's the labor that people have to go to prove your wrong®. 200,000 gallons of fuel is not alot it's probably correct information leaked by the IDF so certain news sources can engage in whataboutism. if I'm correct, the British people saved over 330,000 troops from the shores of Dunkirk in nine days. even this really isn't an option with Israeli navy off the coast.
posted by clavdivs at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2023
Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan Fact Sheet. DOD.
On August 25, 2022, the Department of Defense (DoD) released its Civilian Harm Mitigation and Response Action Plan (CHMR-AP)
(PDF)which lays out a series of major actions DoD will implement to mitigate and respond to civilian harm."
Well, your guessing or not provding sources for your assertion, which is partly invalid as The U.S. has not faced an existential threat like the Palestinians in a while part of this fallacy encompasses the size of the United States compared to Palestine and Israel. the whole point is to evacuate your civilians in a war zone so they will not face the existential threat. however, the Palestinian people have nowhere to really flee even after 30 some days. and whose fault is that.
please just don't throw out assertions without some background and context rather than whataboutism in comparative conjecture. to me, it dilutes a thread, and I'm not Innocent of this, in the past but not in these threads, with not only partially incorrect information, it's the labor that people have to go to prove your wrong®. 200,000 gallons of fuel is not alot it's probably correct information leaked by the IDF so certain news sources can engage in whataboutism. if I'm correct, the British people saved over 330,000 troops from the shores of Dunkirk in nine days. even this really isn't an option with Israeli navy off the coast.
posted by clavdivs at 2:57 PM on November 10, 2023
Until ~2015 the IDF operated with a doctrine called the Hammurabi Doctrine, that made it permissible for IDF soldiers to kill each other if they were in danger of being kidnapped/captured by Hamas.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:03 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:03 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re: Solar - that CNN infographic said that in Gaza in 2021 "Most people currently get drinking water from private vendors who run small desalination facilities that are mostly powered by solar energy." I don't think it's particularly controversial as it's happening already - small scale operations puts power back into the hands of families and smaller communities rather than them relying on Hamas or Israel or UNRWA for water. And I did say "after" the war, obviously nothing is getting imported at this time, and stuff gets broken as fire is exchanged.
Anyway, this solar thing is a derail, I was just surprised at the statistics that said Israel only supplied 6% of water in Gaza and was wondering why it was such a big deal until I dug further into the details.
posted by xdvesper at 3:10 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anyway, this solar thing is a derail, I was just surprised at the statistics that said Israel only supplied 6% of water in Gaza and was wondering why it was such a big deal until I dug further into the details.
posted by xdvesper at 3:10 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sorry, Hannibal Directive, not Hammurabi.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:12 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 3:12 PM on November 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
They seem to imply that parts of the Israeli civilian casualties on Oct 7 are from friendly fire by Apache helicopters
video via Twitter
That video that Lanark has linked to has been debunked by GeoConfirmed - it's worth reading their Twitter thread on the matter, as it not only breaks down what the video actually shows, but also how this disinformation has spread, and the key accounts behind it.
The TL:DR is that various accounts (some known to be be right wing and/or antisemitic and/or general conspiracy theorists) with large followers have claimed the video shows the IDF in an apache helicopter shooting down people fleeing from the rave. Except, the video was taken very near the border, not where the rave was located.
I, without trying, have seen on my feed some accounts using this video to feed into a larger conspiracy theory that 10/7 was a false flag operation (recently given emphasis by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd). No doubt some Israelis died as a result of 'friendly' fire, but this is becoming a domain of conspiracy theorists and so I'd encourage people to check their sources here.
We can advocate for a ceasefire and a free Palestine without trafficking in misinformation.
posted by coffeecat at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
video via Twitter
That video that Lanark has linked to has been debunked by GeoConfirmed - it's worth reading their Twitter thread on the matter, as it not only breaks down what the video actually shows, but also how this disinformation has spread, and the key accounts behind it.
The TL:DR is that various accounts (some known to be be right wing and/or antisemitic and/or general conspiracy theorists) with large followers have claimed the video shows the IDF in an apache helicopter shooting down people fleeing from the rave. Except, the video was taken very near the border, not where the rave was located.
I, without trying, have seen on my feed some accounts using this video to feed into a larger conspiracy theory that 10/7 was a false flag operation (recently given emphasis by Roger Waters of Pink Floyd). No doubt some Israelis died as a result of 'friendly' fire, but this is becoming a domain of conspiracy theorists and so I'd encourage people to check their sources here.
We can advocate for a ceasefire and a free Palestine without trafficking in misinformation.
posted by coffeecat at 3:16 PM on November 10, 2023 [20 favorites]
two more perspectives / vantage points from individuals who tend toward the humanistic / compassionate / empathetic side, both are hardly naive about the challenges faced yet both realize that work will be required by the larger population instead of relying solely on leadership for direction ... sorry if either / both of these are dupes, I did skim over recent posts from past 2-3 days but didn't see these among what has been posted
Uriel Abulof
Mohammed Darawshe
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2023
Uriel Abulof
Mohammed Darawshe
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:44 PM on November 10, 2023
oh oops, that 1st link already out of date ... here it is (starts at around 8 minute mark), my apologies
Uriel Abulof
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2023
Uriel Abulof
posted by clandestiny's child at 5:54 PM on November 10, 2023
Israeli historian and professor of Holocaust and genocide studies, Omer Bertov, has done a couple of public appearances:
NYT Opinion - What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide (there's a twt thread with alt-text that highlights some passages)
As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening. That means two important things: First, we need to define what it is that we are seeing, and second, we have the chance to stop the situation before it gets worse. We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide before it occurs, rather than belatedly condemn it after it has taken place. I think we still have that time.
(...)So in order to prove that genocide is taking place, we need to show both that there is the intent to destroy and that destructive action is taking place against a particular group. Genocide as a legal concept differs from ethnic cleansing in that the latter, which has not been recognized as its own crime under international law, aims to remove a population from a territory, often violently, whereas genocide aims at destroying that population wherever it is. In reality, any of these situations — and especially ethnic cleansing — may escalate into genocide, as happened in the Holocaust, which began with an intention to remove the Jews from German-controlled territories and transformed into the intention of their physical extermination.
My greatest concern watching the Israel-Gaza war unfold is that there is genocidal intent, which can easily tip into genocidal action. On Oct. 7, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Gazans would pay a “huge price” for the actions of Hamas and that the Israel Defense Forces, or I.D.F., would turn parts of Gaza’s densely populated urban centers “into rubble.” On Oct. 28, he added, citing Deuteronomy, “You must remember what Amalek did to you.” As many Israelis know, in revenge for the attack by Amalek, the Bible calls to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings.”
The deeply alarming language does not end there. On Oct. 9, Israel’s defense minister, Yoav Gallant, said, “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” a statement indicating dehumanization, which has genocidal echoes. The next day, the head of the Israeli Army’s coordinator of government activities in the territories, Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, addressed the population of Gaza in Arabic: “Human animals must be treated as such,” he said, adding: “There will be no electricity and no water. There will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”
The same day, retired Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland wrote in the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” He added, “Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal.” In another article, he wrote that “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” Apparently, no army representative or politician denounced this statement.
I could quote many more.
(...)
And so, while we cannot say that the military is explicitly targeting Palestinian civilians, functionally and rhetorically we may be watching an ethnic cleansing operation that could quickly devolve into genocide, as has happened more than once in the past.
None of this happened in a vacuum. Over the past several months I have agonized greatly over the unfolding of events in Israel. On Aug. 4, several colleagues and I circulated a petition warning that the attempted judicial coup by the Netanyahu government was intended to perpetuate the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. It was signed by close to 2,500 scholars, clergy members and public figures who were disgusted with the racist rhetoric of members of the government, its anti-democratic efforts and the growing violence by settlers, seemingly supported by the I.D.F., against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.
What we had warned about — that it would be impossible to ignore the occupation and oppression of millions for 56 years, and the siege of Gaza for 16 years, without consequences — exploded in our faces on Oct. 7.
Also in an interview on Democracy Now: “Clear Intention of Ethnic Cleansing”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov Warns of Genocide in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 6:20 PM on November 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
NYT Opinion - What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide (there's a twt thread with alt-text that highlights some passages)
As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is currently taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening. That means two important things: First, we need to define what it is that we are seeing, and second, we have the chance to stop the situation before it gets worse. We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide before it occurs, rather than belatedly condemn it after it has taken place. I think we still have that time.
(...)So in order to prove that genocide is taking place, we need to show both that there is the intent to destroy and that destructive action is taking place against a particular group. Genocide as a legal concept differs from ethnic cleansing in that the latter, which has not been recognized as its own crime under international law, aims to remove a population from a territory, often violently, whereas genocide aims at destroying that population wherever it is. In reality, any of these situations — and especially ethnic cleansing — may escalate into genocide, as happened in the Holocaust, which began with an intention to remove the Jews from German-controlled territories and transformed into the intention of their physical extermination.
My greatest concern watching the Israel-Gaza war unfold is that there is genocidal intent, which can easily tip into genocidal action. On Oct. 7, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said that Gazans would pay a “huge price” for the actions of Hamas and that the Israel Defense Forces, or I.D.F., would turn parts of Gaza’s densely populated urban centers “into rubble.” On Oct. 28, he added, citing Deuteronomy, “You must remember what Amalek did to you.” As many Israelis know, in revenge for the attack by Amalek, the Bible calls to “kill alike men and women, infants and sucklings.”
The deeply alarming language does not end there. On Oct. 9, Israel’s defense minister, Yoav Gallant, said, “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly,” a statement indicating dehumanization, which has genocidal echoes. The next day, the head of the Israeli Army’s coordinator of government activities in the territories, Maj. Gen. Ghassan Alian, addressed the population of Gaza in Arabic: “Human animals must be treated as such,” he said, adding: “There will be no electricity and no water. There will only be destruction. You wanted hell, you will get hell.”
The same day, retired Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland wrote in the daily newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth, “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in.” He added, “Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieving the goal.” In another article, he wrote that “Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist.” Apparently, no army representative or politician denounced this statement.
I could quote many more.
(...)
And so, while we cannot say that the military is explicitly targeting Palestinian civilians, functionally and rhetorically we may be watching an ethnic cleansing operation that could quickly devolve into genocide, as has happened more than once in the past.
None of this happened in a vacuum. Over the past several months I have agonized greatly over the unfolding of events in Israel. On Aug. 4, several colleagues and I circulated a petition warning that the attempted judicial coup by the Netanyahu government was intended to perpetuate the Israeli occupation of Palestinian land. It was signed by close to 2,500 scholars, clergy members and public figures who were disgusted with the racist rhetoric of members of the government, its anti-democratic efforts and the growing violence by settlers, seemingly supported by the I.D.F., against Palestinians in the occupied West Bank.
What we had warned about — that it would be impossible to ignore the occupation and oppression of millions for 56 years, and the siege of Gaza for 16 years, without consequences — exploded in our faces on Oct. 7.
Also in an interview on Democracy Now: “Clear Intention of Ethnic Cleansing”: Israeli Holocaust Scholar Omer Bartov Warns of Genocide in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 6:20 PM on November 10, 2023 [23 favorites]
Just wanted to add that Bartov is probably the, if not one of, preeminent scholars of the holocaust. His words carry weight.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:18 PM on November 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:18 PM on November 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
Since someone asked up thread how Hamas could actually surrender, the process would he something along the lines of Hamas negotiators send a message via Qatar or Egypt with the Americans being notified immediately of Hamas desire to surrender. There would then be a short term ceasefire to provide proof the offer was genuine. Then there would be several hours / days of negotiations around the overall logistics of the surrender. Collection points would be established for weapons, key officials would surrender to IDF custody. There may or may not be an amnesty or parole for some of the security forces and civilian government officials — you don’t want to repeat the mistake of Iraq where you get rid of the army and the cops and you can’t maintain law and order. Those who are determined to be less dangerous would probably be required to take an oath to the Palestinian Authority. The PA would appoint the interim leadership and do some version of de-Hamas-ification of officials — similar to the work of post war efforts to de-Nazify Germany.
I’m not suggesting a Hamas will surrender; but they could if they chose too. It would be great opportunity for Palestinians because the world has realized we can’t just leave this to be strung along forever — even if Netenyahu wants to.
posted by interogative mood at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2023
I’m not suggesting a Hamas will surrender; but they could if they chose too. It would be great opportunity for Palestinians because the world has realized we can’t just leave this to be strung along forever — even if Netenyahu wants to.
posted by interogative mood at 8:11 PM on November 10, 2023
Archive link to: What I Believe as a Historian of Genocide
"I urge such venerable institutions as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to step in now and stand at the forefront of those warning against war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and the crime of all crimes, genocide."
posted by clavdivs at 8:28 PM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
"I urge such venerable institutions as the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., and Yad Vashem in Jerusalem to step in now and stand at the forefront of those warning against war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing and the crime of all crimes, genocide."
posted by clavdivs at 8:28 PM on November 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
NPR: Israel revises down its death toll from the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks to about 1,200
This tracks very closely Haaretz's published name database: Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War (1152 names).
posted by kmt at 4:57 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This tracks very closely Haaretz's published name database: Israel's Dead: The Names of Those Killed in Hamas Attacks, Massacres and the Israel-Hamas War (1152 names).
posted by kmt at 4:57 AM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
If so, the earlier estimation of 36% being military personnel is a bit... I don't even know what to conclude I don't know what's the acceptable ceiling of collateral in this field.
Came here to share something from 5 hours ago, by nour_odeh, in Ramallah:
🧵AlShifa Hospital is turning into a graveyard. Israeli army shot down the remaining small generator causing a complete power outage. 1 baby in the incubator + 1 gravely injured man have died. A doctor who tried to reach the incubators was shot. Babies in incubators cannot...
regulate their temperature. Doctors are using blankets. Dozens of bodies are at the entrance of the hospital and the ER. Doctors are pleading to be allowed to bury them in the hospital's yard. The ICU unit is full of patients - It is without power. Oxygen & dialysis units are...
not functioning. No food or water is available. Although many displaced families fled the hospital yesterday, doctors estimate there are around 3,000 patients, injured, doctors, nurses, maintenance staff, etc.) in different buildings + at least 15,000 displaced
Al Shifa Hospital is the largest health service provider in Gaza. It employed 25% of all health workers in the Strip. The compound is large: 45,000 square meters. It includes a maternity ward and NICU, Internal Medicine, surgery, ER, ICU, radiology, blood bank & others.
Doctors, patients & the displaced are isolated - trapped in whatever building they are in. Patients are given oxygen manually & only life-saving intervention is possible. Surgery is NOT possible. The surgery building was struck. No one knows if there are casualties.
Some of the displaced who tried to flee Al Shifa in a panic were shot at. Eyewitnesses say a small drone armed with a machine gun shoots at anyone who moves. Anyone who falls injured outside the buildings cannot be rescued.
Doctors in the far smaller & ill-equipped hospitals in central & southern Gaza are overwhelmed with the influx of the wounded who fled Al Shifa. These hospitals usually send the gravely ill or injured to Al Shifa. They do not have the capacity to deal with many of these injuries.
Related: Palestinian journalists forced to flee to southern Gaza, can't report on events in north
Some English-speaking Palestinian journalists stationed at or near the hospitals were among the thousands of civilians forced to flee south. These voices are what many people around the world have used to witness live footage on social media from inside Gaza.
This is because very few international journalists have reported from the Gaza Strip. Access is needed to enter the region, according to the Palestinian Journalists' Syndicate. Israel's army allowed a CBS News correspondent to travel with them through certain parts of northern Gaza.
The International Federation of Journalists also said that most of the reports directly from the areas with the heaviest bombardments are from the journalists born in Gaza.
"It was a very hard decision, but almost all journalists and doctors took the same decision…to run away from being killed," Palestinian journalist Hind Khoudary posted to social media on Nov.9.
Bisan Owda, another journalist who was displaced from Al-Shifa, shared that people were carrying the injured over their shoulders only to find little to no medical staff left.
"There is no aid, people are bleeding and dying in the streets," she wrote on Instagram.
Sick, young, elderly, and disabled Palestinians are not able to walk for hours to the south.
The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) said 40 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead as of Nov. 10.
CPJ also reported multiple assaults, threats, cyberattacks, censorship, and killings of family members. It was the deadliest month for journalists since CPJ started in 1992.
Anyway: Saudi Arabia hosts Arab-Islamic summit to ‘unify efforts’ on Gaza
Excited to hear what level of thoughts and prayers and heaviest condemnations released from that. Hope my PM gets lots of selfies.
posted by cendawanita at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Came here to share something from 5 hours ago, by nour_odeh, in Ramallah:
🧵AlShifa Hospital is turning into a graveyard. Israeli army shot down the remaining small generator causing a complete power outage. 1 baby in the incubator + 1 gravely injured man have died. A doctor who tried to reach the incubators was shot. Babies in incubators cannot...
regulate their temperature. Doctors are using blankets. Dozens of bodies are at the entrance of the hospital and the ER. Doctors are pleading to be allowed to bury them in the hospital's yard. The ICU unit is full of patients - It is without power. Oxygen & dialysis units are...
not functioning. No food or water is available. Although many displaced families fled the hospital yesterday, doctors estimate there are around 3,000 patients, injured, doctors, nurses, maintenance staff, etc.) in different buildings + at least 15,000 displaced
Al Shifa Hospital is the largest health service provider in Gaza. It employed 25% of all health workers in the Strip. The compound is large: 45,000 square meters. It includes a maternity ward and NICU, Internal Medicine, surgery, ER, ICU, radiology, blood bank & others.
Doctors, patients & the displaced are isolated - trapped in whatever building they are in. Patients are given oxygen manually & only life-saving intervention is possible. Surgery is NOT possible. The surgery building was struck. No one knows if there are casualties.
Some of the displaced who tried to flee Al Shifa in a panic were shot at. Eyewitnesses say a small drone armed with a machine gun shoots at anyone who moves. Anyone who falls injured outside the buildings cannot be rescued.
Doctors in the far smaller & ill-equipped hospitals in central & southern Gaza are overwhelmed with the influx of the wounded who fled Al Shifa. These hospitals usually send the gravely ill or injured to Al Shifa. They do not have the capacity to deal with many of these injuries.
Related: Palestinian journalists forced to flee to southern Gaza, can't report on events in north
Some English-speaking Palestinian journalists stationed at or near the hospitals were among the thousands of civilians forced to flee south. These voices are what many people around the world have used to witness live footage on social media from inside Gaza.
This is because very few international journalists have reported from the Gaza Strip. Access is needed to enter the region, according to the Palestinian Journalists' Syndicate. Israel's army allowed a CBS News correspondent to travel with them through certain parts of northern Gaza.
The International Federation of Journalists also said that most of the reports directly from the areas with the heaviest bombardments are from the journalists born in Gaza.
"It was a very hard decision, but almost all journalists and doctors took the same decision…to run away from being killed," Palestinian journalist Hind Khoudary posted to social media on Nov.9.
Bisan Owda, another journalist who was displaced from Al-Shifa, shared that people were carrying the injured over their shoulders only to find little to no medical staff left.
"There is no aid, people are bleeding and dying in the streets," she wrote on Instagram.
Sick, young, elderly, and disabled Palestinians are not able to walk for hours to the south.
The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) said 40 journalists and media workers were confirmed dead as of Nov. 10.
CPJ also reported multiple assaults, threats, cyberattacks, censorship, and killings of family members. It was the deadliest month for journalists since CPJ started in 1992.
Anyway: Saudi Arabia hosts Arab-Islamic summit to ‘unify efforts’ on Gaza
Excited to hear what level of thoughts and prayers and heaviest condemnations released from that. Hope my PM gets lots of selfies.
posted by cendawanita at 5:43 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Elad Nehorai: Thread 🧵
The following is a translation of Israeli activist Ariel Bernstein’s words on the passing of his friend Khalil Abu Yahia, who was killed in Gaza by an Israeli airstrike along with his wife and daughters. Shared with permission:
“These days, when someone dies, you first have to declare which side of the wall they belong to before being granted permission to be sad.
But on Monday, an exceptionally rare man — who caused no harm to anyone — was killed.
I never met him in person, yet I am saddened by his passing, despite him not being “from our side.”
Khalil was born in Gaza City and has spent his entire life there. His favorite thing in the world was to read, and indeed he was a nonstop reader.
He earned his bachelor's degree in English literature. He had many dreams, which he was eager to share: dreams of traveling the world, continuing his studies at a university in England where he'd been accepted, and visiting friends from Israel.
More than anything, he dreamed of being free, of breaking free from the visible and invisible fences that entrapped him in Gaza.
When he spoke of freedom, his eyes would light up with a hypnotizing sparkle.
I met him through the 'Achvat Amim (Solidarity of Nations)' group, where I spoke about the fighting in Gaza.
I had no idea he'd be a participant; I hadn't met him.
I spoke of my experience as a combatant in Gaza, and then he joined us via Zoom to share the story of his life as a civilian and peace activist in Gaza.
A life under the Israeli siege and under the Hamas rule.
He described the incomparable difficulties of daily life, the fear of every plane passing overhead & the gaping hole in his heart caused by the death of his friends with each round of combat.
I was astonished by his beaming optimism & charisma, radiating even through the screen.
Afterwards, we stayed in touch via Whatsapp, and I was surprised that he was interested in speaking with me despite my years as a soldier fighting in Gaza.
I was very curious to finally meet a real person who lives there, in that dark and terrifying place.
We started to be friends through messages, I asked how he was, and he how I was. He said that one day we would sit together and drink coffee.
We organized an event together a few months ago at House of Solidarity, and spoke to an audience of about 50 people about life in Gaza.
He was glad that Israelis were interested in hearing his story and learning about Gaza. He spoke with a calm, warm smile and emanated a message of hope.
Throughout the war, we texted constantly.
I was worried about him because I knew he had fled the bombings to the south of the strip, where it was supposed to be safe.
However, Khalil was killed by IDF airstrikes in the Gaza Strip's south on Monday night, October 30th.
Now that Khalil is gone, it appears that hope has gone with him. But his bright eyes keep shining in my memory.
Two days before he was killed, he wrote to me from his refuge that he hoped we would meet in person one day, and I assured him we will.
We won't now.
Rest in peace dear friend, you deserved better.”
Jason Stanley: My life has been defined by genocide of Jewish people. I look on Gaza with concern
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 AM on November 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
The following is a translation of Israeli activist Ariel Bernstein’s words on the passing of his friend Khalil Abu Yahia, who was killed in Gaza by an Israeli airstrike along with his wife and daughters. Shared with permission:
“These days, when someone dies, you first have to declare which side of the wall they belong to before being granted permission to be sad.
But on Monday, an exceptionally rare man — who caused no harm to anyone — was killed.
I never met him in person, yet I am saddened by his passing, despite him not being “from our side.”
Khalil was born in Gaza City and has spent his entire life there. His favorite thing in the world was to read, and indeed he was a nonstop reader.
He earned his bachelor's degree in English literature. He had many dreams, which he was eager to share: dreams of traveling the world, continuing his studies at a university in England where he'd been accepted, and visiting friends from Israel.
More than anything, he dreamed of being free, of breaking free from the visible and invisible fences that entrapped him in Gaza.
When he spoke of freedom, his eyes would light up with a hypnotizing sparkle.
I met him through the 'Achvat Amim (Solidarity of Nations)' group, where I spoke about the fighting in Gaza.
I had no idea he'd be a participant; I hadn't met him.
I spoke of my experience as a combatant in Gaza, and then he joined us via Zoom to share the story of his life as a civilian and peace activist in Gaza.
A life under the Israeli siege and under the Hamas rule.
He described the incomparable difficulties of daily life, the fear of every plane passing overhead & the gaping hole in his heart caused by the death of his friends with each round of combat.
I was astonished by his beaming optimism & charisma, radiating even through the screen.
Afterwards, we stayed in touch via Whatsapp, and I was surprised that he was interested in speaking with me despite my years as a soldier fighting in Gaza.
I was very curious to finally meet a real person who lives there, in that dark and terrifying place.
We started to be friends through messages, I asked how he was, and he how I was. He said that one day we would sit together and drink coffee.
We organized an event together a few months ago at House of Solidarity, and spoke to an audience of about 50 people about life in Gaza.
He was glad that Israelis were interested in hearing his story and learning about Gaza. He spoke with a calm, warm smile and emanated a message of hope.
Throughout the war, we texted constantly.
I was worried about him because I knew he had fled the bombings to the south of the strip, where it was supposed to be safe.
However, Khalil was killed by IDF airstrikes in the Gaza Strip's south on Monday night, October 30th.
Now that Khalil is gone, it appears that hope has gone with him. But his bright eyes keep shining in my memory.
Two days before he was killed, he wrote to me from his refuge that he hoped we would meet in person one day, and I assured him we will.
We won't now.
Rest in peace dear friend, you deserved better.”
Jason Stanley: My life has been defined by genocide of Jewish people. I look on Gaza with concern
posted by cendawanita at 6:22 AM on November 11, 2023 [17 favorites]
A big splash of cold water on the feasibility of a two-state solution, from a Palestinian and a former negotiator.
My gut says he's probably right. Reality sucks.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:45 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
My gut says he's probably right. Reality sucks.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:45 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
Given that the IDF is engaged in, at best an ethnic cleansing campaign and at worst a genocide, I’m outraged and befuddled that my corporate coworkers can publicly lament the deaths of IDF ‘heros’ who are engaged in said campaign within Gaza, but any expression of sympathy or concern for the nearly 5000 dead Palestinian children would grant me a quick visit to the HR department. The discourse in the US absolutely sucks.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on November 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:40 AM on November 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
New Yorker: Interview with Daniella Weiss, one of the leaders of Israel's settlement movement
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 9:25 AM on November 11, 2023 [11 favorites]
Given Israel's history of openly and proudly using torture, I think any idea that surrender could or should involve Hamas leadership or personnel willingly entering IDF custody is absurd on the face of things. Even if Hamas actually wanted to surrender, no one sane will take a peace deal that involves going to IDF torture chambers.
Israel closed the door to anyone actually surrendering directly and in person to them decades ago. Hamas leaders might surrender to an ICC facility operated by neutral third parties, but not to a nation that actually BRAGS about torturing its captives.
posted by sotonohito at 9:53 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel closed the door to anyone actually surrendering directly and in person to them decades ago. Hamas leaders might surrender to an ICC facility operated by neutral third parties, but not to a nation that actually BRAGS about torturing its captives.
posted by sotonohito at 9:53 AM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
A big splash of cold water on the feasibility of a two-state solution, from a Palestinian and a former negotiator.
My gut says he's probably right. Reality sucks.
Assuming he's correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, the problem is that all the one state solutions look fucking awful.
Can anyone reasonably believe that Israel would allow the residents of Gaza and the West Bank to assimilate and become first class citizens of Israel? Best case scenario for the Israelis if they do that is ceding half the political power in a fully annexed Israel. Worst case, if the diaspora starts coming back, they could easily become a minority. Given the posturing coming from the Israeli leadership so far, that they would let this happen would be untenable.
What's the ways forward from there? Do they enforce political hegemony of the Jewish people? What would Israel look like with the enforced political hegemony of a shrinking religious minority? Do they do ethnic cleansing and population transfers? Which countries would accept the expelled? Are they just stateless? There are not even bad answers to these questions. All of the answers to the one state question are basically either sheer fantasy in the face of political reality or affronts to human dignity and justice in their own right.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
My gut says he's probably right. Reality sucks.
Assuming he's correct, and I have no reason to doubt him, the problem is that all the one state solutions look fucking awful.
Can anyone reasonably believe that Israel would allow the residents of Gaza and the West Bank to assimilate and become first class citizens of Israel? Best case scenario for the Israelis if they do that is ceding half the political power in a fully annexed Israel. Worst case, if the diaspora starts coming back, they could easily become a minority. Given the posturing coming from the Israeli leadership so far, that they would let this happen would be untenable.
What's the ways forward from there? Do they enforce political hegemony of the Jewish people? What would Israel look like with the enforced political hegemony of a shrinking religious minority? Do they do ethnic cleansing and population transfers? Which countries would accept the expelled? Are they just stateless? There are not even bad answers to these questions. All of the answers to the one state question are basically either sheer fantasy in the face of political reality or affronts to human dignity and justice in their own right.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
New Yorker: Interview with Daniella Weiss, one of the leaders of Israel's settlement movement
How does Chotiner do it, getting his interviews just fully disclosing things like:
How would you describe the settler movement?
I see the settler movement today as a direct continuation of the settler movement of a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty years ago. I see it as a chapter in the history of Zionism, and we are in one of those chapters of modern Zionism. Settlement is the way to return to Zion.
You said, "Settlement is the way to return to Zion”?
Yes. It’s the end of the dispersion and the beginning of the revival of the Jewish nation in this homeland.
What are the borders of that Jewish nation?
The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest.
[This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]
(...) So you think it was a mistake to pull out of settlements nearly twenty years ago?
It was a mistake. The whole world is crying now because of that. The whole world suffers from Hamas’s rise. Not my problem. It’s your problem. No country in the world said they were going to accept even a thousand people from Gaza. The world hates them. It was such a big mistake to let them rise.
Where should the Palestinians in Gaza go?
To Sinai, to Egypt, to Turkey.
They’re not Egyptian or Turkish, though. Why would they go to Turkey?
O.K. The Ukrainians are not French, but when the war started they went to many countries.
Their country was being bombed, and so many of them fled west.
And Gazan people are dying to go to other places.
I think Ukrainians wanted to go to Europe because they didn’t want to get bombed.
And the Gazan people want to get bombed by us?
Maybe one option, rather than bombing them, would be to help try and develop a society for them in Gaza, right?
O.K., I wish you luck. Go ahead. Go for it.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
How does Chotiner do it, getting his interviews just fully disclosing things like:
How would you describe the settler movement?
I see the settler movement today as a direct continuation of the settler movement of a hundred and twenty, thirty, forty years ago. I see it as a chapter in the history of Zionism, and we are in one of those chapters of modern Zionism. Settlement is the way to return to Zion.
You said, "Settlement is the way to return to Zion”?
Yes. It’s the end of the dispersion and the beginning of the revival of the Jewish nation in this homeland.
What are the borders of that Jewish nation?
The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest.
[This would include the territory of multiple Middle Eastern countries as well as the territory that Israel controls today.]
(...) So you think it was a mistake to pull out of settlements nearly twenty years ago?
It was a mistake. The whole world is crying now because of that. The whole world suffers from Hamas’s rise. Not my problem. It’s your problem. No country in the world said they were going to accept even a thousand people from Gaza. The world hates them. It was such a big mistake to let them rise.
Where should the Palestinians in Gaza go?
To Sinai, to Egypt, to Turkey.
They’re not Egyptian or Turkish, though. Why would they go to Turkey?
O.K. The Ukrainians are not French, but when the war started they went to many countries.
Their country was being bombed, and so many of them fled west.
And Gazan people are dying to go to other places.
I think Ukrainians wanted to go to Europe because they didn’t want to get bombed.
And the Gazan people want to get bombed by us?
Maybe one option, rather than bombing them, would be to help try and develop a society for them in Gaza, right?
O.K., I wish you luck. Go ahead. Go for it.
posted by cendawanita at 10:29 AM on November 11, 2023 [13 favorites]
Chotiner is incredible. I'm sure part of his success is having the New Yorker brand behind him when it comes to getting people to agree to interviews, but there must be so much more to it.
I don't even think this particular interview looks like it would have been difficult (these people are loud and proud about their beliefs), but why is he the only one out there in the major media who is doing these interviews? This is such essential context. What's stopping everyone else?
posted by ssg at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't even think this particular interview looks like it would have been difficult (these people are loud and proud about their beliefs), but why is he the only one out there in the major media who is doing these interviews? This is such essential context. What's stopping everyone else?
posted by ssg at 10:40 AM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Another chilling statement from Chotiner's characteristically revealing interview:
When you see Palestinian children dying, what's your emotional reaction as a human being?
I go by a very basic human law of nature. My children are prior to the children of the enemy, period. They are first. My children are first.
We are talking about children. I don't know if the law of nature is what we need to be looking at here.
Yeah. I say my children are first.♦
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
When you see Palestinian children dying, what's your emotional reaction as a human being?
I go by a very basic human law of nature. My children are prior to the children of the enemy, period. They are first. My children are first.
We are talking about children. I don't know if the law of nature is what we need to be looking at here.
Yeah. I say my children are first.♦
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
MSF (Twitter) reports Israel is not just bombing Al-Shifa hospital, but also has snipers shooting at patients inside the hospital. Babies in incubators have died because they don't have electricity.
posted by ssg at 10:47 AM on November 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by ssg at 10:47 AM on November 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
More MSF:
Medical staff in #Gaza are so inundated by the sheer mass of patients arriving that the surgical board used to keep track of the weeks upcoming surgeries has been wiped clean and replaced with these words:
Medical staff in #Gaza are so inundated by the sheer mass of patients arriving that the surgical board used to keep track of the weeks upcoming surgeries has been wiped clean and replaced with these words:
Whoever stays until the end will tell the story. We did what we could. * Remember Us *posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:42 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah. I say my children are first.
So does anyone still think ethnic nationalism isn't a poisonous ideology, or wonder why some people say "Zionism is fascism"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:46 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
So does anyone still think ethnic nationalism isn't a poisonous ideology, or wonder why some people say "Zionism is fascism"?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:46 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
So does anyone still [...] wonder why some people say "Zionism is fascism"?
I mean, given that Weiss's brand of settler Zionism does not define Zionism as a whole, kind of...? (And this is before we get into the weeds of "what is fascism, really"—or whether Zionism refers merely to the belief in a Jewish homeland or to the actual social movements extant today that profess to represent some form of Zionism.)
Don't get me wrong, that was an extraordinarily chilling interview, and it really rams home the total depravity behind the settler movement, but going from Daniella Weiss to "Zionism is fascism" is like going from a Hamas official to "Palestinian nationalism is genocidally antisemitic." If you're going to critique either movement in broad strokes, you'd really need to do so by targeting the moderates; why is support of a two-state solution along the lines of the Oslo Accords, etc., fascist?
(Which isn't to say there isn't an argument to be made there!—whether it's that the Oslo Accords are unrealistic in the present day and age, or that a two-state solution still relies on the ideology of the nation-state with all its attendant perils. But in any case, I think the argument that Zionism is fascism would be better based on two-staters [or even, arguably, federalists] rather than people like Weiss who represent an extreme form of the ideology.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I mean, given that Weiss's brand of settler Zionism does not define Zionism as a whole, kind of...? (And this is before we get into the weeds of "what is fascism, really"—or whether Zionism refers merely to the belief in a Jewish homeland or to the actual social movements extant today that profess to represent some form of Zionism.)
Don't get me wrong, that was an extraordinarily chilling interview, and it really rams home the total depravity behind the settler movement, but going from Daniella Weiss to "Zionism is fascism" is like going from a Hamas official to "Palestinian nationalism is genocidally antisemitic." If you're going to critique either movement in broad strokes, you'd really need to do so by targeting the moderates; why is support of a two-state solution along the lines of the Oslo Accords, etc., fascist?
(Which isn't to say there isn't an argument to be made there!—whether it's that the Oslo Accords are unrealistic in the present day and age, or that a two-state solution still relies on the ideology of the nation-state with all its attendant perils. But in any case, I think the argument that Zionism is fascism would be better based on two-staters [or even, arguably, federalists] rather than people like Weiss who represent an extreme form of the ideology.)
posted by the tartare yolk at 1:38 PM on November 11, 2023 [8 favorites]
I mean, given that Weiss's brand of settler Zionism does not define Zionism as a whole, kind of...?
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly? Mystical ancient blood ties to the land used as justification for expelling the existing population. (And Herzl drew his inspiration from the same pan-Germanism that inspired Hitler.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:01 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly? Mystical ancient blood ties to the land used as justification for expelling the existing population. (And Herzl drew his inspiration from the same pan-Germanism that inspired Hitler.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:01 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly?
Perhaps some light reading. Also the term Zionism was coined why before Hitler
the invasion of Poland encompassed other countries while Britain and France made small incursions let's call it a small invasion into Germany during this time.
also, the Nazis turned Poland to an open-air concentration camp that killed millions of people.
I think it's a pretty f***** up analogy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:38 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Perhaps some light reading. Also the term Zionism was coined why before Hitler
the invasion of Poland encompassed other countries while Britain and France made small incursions let's call it a small invasion into Germany during this time.
also, the Nazis turned Poland to an open-air concentration camp that killed millions of people.
I think it's a pretty f***** up analogy.
posted by clavdivs at 2:38 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, as I said, I think there are valid arguments for saying that Zionism is perniciously ethnonationalistic, founded on ethnic cleansing, etc. (I'd probably avoid the Nazi metaphor because I think it doesn't do much work and is kind of calculated to twist a knife in the same Jewish collective trauma that leads to diasporic support of the state of Israel, but whatever.) Some of these arguments I agree with, some I don't—but recognize them as valid nonetheless. So I'm trying to discuss this comment on practical rather than ideological grounds.
I think my point stands that Weiss's interview, in particular, reveals rather little about typical Zionist mentalities. And when coming out of the gate with takes like "Zionism is fascism," I remain convinced that it's best to consider the typical Zionist rather than an extremist like Weiss. Because I'm not really sure there's anyone in this thread that doesn't condemn the settlers (even interogative mood, who has drawn the most flak for their posts in this thread, seems to have condemned them above, despite the problematic phrasing in that recent post), but blanket condemnation of Zionism as an idea seems less unanimous. So even if it's not apparent to you, there does seem to be some conceptual disconnect that people are drawing between the two, and pointing to Weiss as the Zionist par excellence isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already think that it's a fascist ideology.
posted by the tartare yolk at 2:47 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think my point stands that Weiss's interview, in particular, reveals rather little about typical Zionist mentalities. And when coming out of the gate with takes like "Zionism is fascism," I remain convinced that it's best to consider the typical Zionist rather than an extremist like Weiss. Because I'm not really sure there's anyone in this thread that doesn't condemn the settlers (even interogative mood, who has drawn the most flak for their posts in this thread, seems to have condemned them above, despite the problematic phrasing in that recent post), but blanket condemnation of Zionism as an idea seems less unanimous. So even if it's not apparent to you, there does seem to be some conceptual disconnect that people are drawing between the two, and pointing to Weiss as the Zionist par excellence isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already think that it's a fascist ideology.
posted by the tartare yolk at 2:47 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
We should probably just stop using the term "Zionism" because it has so many different meanings that trying to sort out what a person actually means when they say it is more or less impossible.
And, using a vague term like that allows bad faith actors to believe in and promote Zionism as described by Weiss, and then act hurt and insist they meant a totally different and more innocuous sort of Zionism when called on it.
I'm 100% anti-the-word-Zionist and hope it gets abandoned soon.
posted by sotonohito at 2:50 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
And, using a vague term like that allows bad faith actors to believe in and promote Zionism as described by Weiss, and then act hurt and insist they meant a totally different and more innocuous sort of Zionism when called on it.
I'm 100% anti-the-word-Zionist and hope it gets abandoned soon.
posted by sotonohito at 2:50 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
On X.
London is conquered. Dark times ahead.
Notice, the SIS building in background.
posted by clavdivs at 2:54 PM on November 11, 2023
London is conquered. Dark times ahead.
Notice, the SIS building in background.
posted by clavdivs at 2:54 PM on November 11, 2023
New Yorker: Interview with Daniella Weiss, one of the leaders of Israel's settlement movement
Chilling, indeed. Unhinged and seemingly unrestrained fascism on display.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:00 PM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Chilling, indeed. Unhinged and seemingly unrestrained fascism on display.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:00 PM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
London is conquered. Dark times ahead.
This is definitely provocative phrasing, and it seems like Radio Genoa has been linked to promoting far-right anti-immigrant views in general (and is apparently most newsworthy for having been retweeted by Elon Musk a month or so ago?), so a better source might be in order.
posted by the tartare yolk at 3:04 PM on November 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is definitely provocative phrasing, and it seems like Radio Genoa has been linked to promoting far-right anti-immigrant views in general (and is apparently most newsworthy for having been retweeted by Elon Musk a month or so ago?), so a better source might be in order.
posted by the tartare yolk at 3:04 PM on November 11, 2023 [10 favorites]
Labor Zionists are a bunch of socialist farmer peaceniks. They bear no resemblance to the Nazi comparison, and as many of them and their grandparents were Holocaust survivors, it's especially offensive. Many of those kidnapped on Oct 7 from kibbutzes were Labor Zionist, pro-Palestinian rights peace activists.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:06 PM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:06 PM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
We should probably just stop using the term "Zionism" because it has so many different meanings that trying to sort out what a person actually means when they say it is more or less impossible.
"We"? so "we' should stop using the term, use a different term, have an addendum for multiple meanings of the term. does revisionist Zionism fit the current situation?
I mean I see your point if you're trying to draw shitball comparisons to other historical analogies. in my opinion, if a person can't distinguish between Nazism and Zionism I think they should go do some reading rather than toss the terms around like they're interchangeable outrage plugins
posted by clavdivs at 3:08 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
"We"? so "we' should stop using the term, use a different term, have an addendum for multiple meanings of the term. does revisionist Zionism fit the current situation?
I mean I see your point if you're trying to draw shitball comparisons to other historical analogies. in my opinion, if a person can't distinguish between Nazism and Zionism I think they should go do some reading rather than toss the terms around like they're interchangeable outrage plugins
posted by clavdivs at 3:08 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
if a person can't distinguish between Nazism and Zionism
Reading comprehension is a good thing; I compared Zionism to Pan-Germanism. (And I stand by my opinion that it's a poisonous ideology.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:09 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reading comprehension is a good thing; I compared Zionism to Pan-Germanism. (And I stand by my opinion that it's a poisonous ideology.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:09 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Labor Zionists are a bunch of socialist farmer peaceniks
Not all of them? Some of them split off and joined Likud because of a belief in "greater Israel". And they form a decided minority in Israel today (Labor only has 4 MKs at present).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:30 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Not all of them? Some of them split off and joined Likud because of a belief in "greater Israel". And they form a decided minority in Israel today (Labor only has 4 MKs at present).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:30 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The point was that the Zionist movement from its beginning and to this day includes a wide diversity of viewpoints, not all of which in any way resemble the most bloodthirsty analogy you can generate.
posted by hydropsyche at 3:53 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 3:53 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The point was that the Zionist movement from its beginning and to this day includes a wide diversity of viewpoints, not all of which in any way resemble the most bloodthirsty analogy you can generate.
But the brand of Zionism endorsed by Netanyahu and the members of his cabinet like Ben-Gvir absolutely does. Which is kind of relevant to the current moment.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2023
But the brand of Zionism endorsed by Netanyahu and the members of his cabinet like Ben-Gvir absolutely does. Which is kind of relevant to the current moment.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:13 PM on November 11, 2023
And here is an Israeli government minister saying "we are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba", for anyone who still thinks Israel's intentions are not ethnic cleansing and/or genocide.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:16 PM on November 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:16 PM on November 11, 2023 [12 favorites]
Nobody here is defending Netanyahu or the abhorrent opinions of Likud or the abhorrent actions of the IDF currently, just as no one here is, as far as I know, defending the abhorrent opinions or actions of Hamas. That still doesn't mean that you can simply declare that all Zionists on earth are the same as Nazis. My entire point was that there are absolutely Zionists, right now in this conflict who have been victims of a Hamas terror attack but are still pro-Palestinian rights peace activists.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 PM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:20 PM on November 11, 2023 [6 favorites]
if a person can't distinguish between Nazism and Zionism
Reading comprehension is a good thing; I compared Zionism to Pan-Germanism.
Why try and weasel out of it? Just own it. What you said was:
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly?
That's a direct Zionism/Nazi comparison. It's been a major component of the anti-Israel messaging, partly because applying every crime of the Nazis (genocide, etc.) to Israel manages to hit every antisemetic dogwhistle without actually saying "I hate Jews", but really, there are better ways to make an argument.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Reading comprehension is a good thing; I compared Zionism to Pan-Germanism.
Why try and weasel out of it? Just own it. What you said was:
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly?
That's a direct Zionism/Nazi comparison. It's been a major component of the anti-Israel messaging, partly because applying every crime of the Nazis (genocide, etc.) to Israel manages to hit every antisemetic dogwhistle without actually saying "I hate Jews", but really, there are better ways to make an argument.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:43 PM on November 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why try and weasel out of it? Just own it. What you said was:
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly?
Since you apparently need hand-holding here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germanism#1918_to_1945
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:00 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see any meaningful way in which Zionism differs fundamentally from the ideology that drove Germany to annex Austria and invade Poland in the name of "restoring the Greater Reich", honestly?
Since you apparently need hand-holding here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Germanism#1918_to_1945
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:00 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Obviously no one here is probably in position to verify the claims below and I’m sure many will he skeptical. I’m merely posting them for information purposes.
The IDF denies shooting at Al Shifa hospital. They note there are firefights nearby but seem to be pushing back on the sniper story.
Lets you think it’s all sunshine and rainbows and that Netanyahu’s heart has grown three sizes today. They did admit to blowing up a school today near the Hospital claiming that it had been turned into a command center and they killed a Hamas company level commander Ahmed Siam.. So that would be like killing a. Captain or a Major in charge of 80-250 soldiers according to google. They allege Siam was holding staff and patients hostage at Al Rantisi hospital.
They seem to have also gotten the message that they can’t just tell a bunch of patients to run away; and maybe bomb ambulances in the confusion. That this isn’t a good look. So today the IDF made a big deal about how they are working to evacuate these Hospitals. They posted this tweet that allegedly includes a conversation with a staff member at Rantisi Hospital.
They also claim that the IDF “helped” about 50,000 more Gazans get out of the main combat zone in northern Gaza during the humanitarian window.
I hope efforts are being made to further limit civilian casualties but I also recognize that marching a bunch of hospitalized, severely injured / sick patients out of their hospital beds, into ambulances and through a war zone is not good. But at least they aren’t drone striking the ambulances today and in this region that’s actually more progress towards basic human decency than we’ve seen in a while —- I’ll take it.
posted by interogative mood at 5:06 PM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
The IDF denies shooting at Al Shifa hospital. They note there are firefights nearby but seem to be pushing back on the sniper story.
Lets you think it’s all sunshine and rainbows and that Netanyahu’s heart has grown three sizes today. They did admit to blowing up a school today near the Hospital claiming that it had been turned into a command center and they killed a Hamas company level commander Ahmed Siam.. So that would be like killing a. Captain or a Major in charge of 80-250 soldiers according to google. They allege Siam was holding staff and patients hostage at Al Rantisi hospital.
They seem to have also gotten the message that they can’t just tell a bunch of patients to run away; and maybe bomb ambulances in the confusion. That this isn’t a good look. So today the IDF made a big deal about how they are working to evacuate these Hospitals. They posted this tweet that allegedly includes a conversation with a staff member at Rantisi Hospital.
They also claim that the IDF “helped” about 50,000 more Gazans get out of the main combat zone in northern Gaza during the humanitarian window.
I hope efforts are being made to further limit civilian casualties but I also recognize that marching a bunch of hospitalized, severely injured / sick patients out of their hospital beds, into ambulances and through a war zone is not good. But at least they aren’t drone striking the ambulances today and in this region that’s actually more progress towards basic human decency than we’ve seen in a while —- I’ll take it.
posted by interogative mood at 5:06 PM on November 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
partly because applying every crime of the Nazis (genocide, etc.) to Israel manages to hit every antisemetic dogwhistle
Don’t poison the well. Israel is currently engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign that is not unreasonably described as a genocide. This is not an antisemitic dog whistle and calling it as such is not good for discourse here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:12 PM on November 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
Don’t poison the well. Israel is currently engaged in an ethnic cleansing campaign that is not unreasonably described as a genocide. This is not an antisemitic dog whistle and calling it as such is not good for discourse here.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:12 PM on November 11, 2023 [14 favorites]
doesn't mean that you can simply declare that all Zionists on earth are the same as Nazis
I didn't; I said that Zionism is fundamentally indistinguishable from pan-Germanism as blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism based in part on ancient claims of a blood connection to land (which was also an ideology of the Nazis, yes).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:23 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't; I said that Zionism is fundamentally indistinguishable from pan-Germanism as blood-and-soil ethnic nationalism based in part on ancient claims of a blood connection to land (which was also an ideology of the Nazis, yes).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:23 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Weiss is clearly the voice of an extremist position and even as I want to doubt this claim:
In Israel, there’s a lot of support for settlements, and this is why there have been right-wing governments for so many years. The world, especially the United States, thinks there is an option for a Palestinian state, and, if we continue to build communities, then we block the option for a Palestinian state. We want to close the option for a Palestinian state, and the world wants to leave the option open. It’s a very simple thing to understand.
There is no doubt it's a view that is currently supported/in sympathy with the present administration, and looking at the political trends of recent decades, perhaps even future ones. Whatever one may feel about Israel's founding, I also feel about the USA, Canada, Singapore, even my country. But for the sake of people currently alive there, it is also settled fact. But I am genuinely at a loss thinking on what's the diplomatic options here, even if Hamas surrenders. Because even in present times, this doesn't make Israel an outlier. Azerbaijan is currently feeling good about their odds following the fall of Nagorno-Karabakh (and overlooked by the world), Ethiopia is making moves about annexing a port/sea access via Eritrea (well currently just statements but we'll see). Russia is still ongoing.
But quite rightly if my concerns lend themselves to an interventionist conclusion then it should be interrogated. But at what point does the international community negotiate at the back channels before events become untenable e.g. Rwanda or Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia?
posted by cendawanita at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
In Israel, there’s a lot of support for settlements, and this is why there have been right-wing governments for so many years. The world, especially the United States, thinks there is an option for a Palestinian state, and, if we continue to build communities, then we block the option for a Palestinian state. We want to close the option for a Palestinian state, and the world wants to leave the option open. It’s a very simple thing to understand.
There is no doubt it's a view that is currently supported/in sympathy with the present administration, and looking at the political trends of recent decades, perhaps even future ones. Whatever one may feel about Israel's founding, I also feel about the USA, Canada, Singapore, even my country. But for the sake of people currently alive there, it is also settled fact. But I am genuinely at a loss thinking on what's the diplomatic options here, even if Hamas surrenders. Because even in present times, this doesn't make Israel an outlier. Azerbaijan is currently feeling good about their odds following the fall of Nagorno-Karabakh (and overlooked by the world), Ethiopia is making moves about annexing a port/sea access via Eritrea (well currently just statements but we'll see). Russia is still ongoing.
But quite rightly if my concerns lend themselves to an interventionist conclusion then it should be interrogated. But at what point does the international community negotiate at the back channels before events become untenable e.g. Rwanda or Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia?
posted by cendawanita at 5:37 PM on November 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Your inability to distinguish between pan-Germanism and Zionism is unfortunate. Perhaps it would help if you educated yourself at all on the history of the Jewish people, which might enable you to conceptualize the difference between a nationalist movement based on a constructed identity of shared language and a movement of oppressed peoples in a forced diaspora to return to their homeland.
posted by cosmic owl at 5:47 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 5:47 PM on November 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Whatever the differences in origin (which are debatable; from Herzl's own writings it's pretty clear that he wouldn't have writted "Der Judenstaat" without the influence of pan-Germanism; it's also clear that he envisaged Zionism as a colonialist settler project), the ideology and goals are functionally indistinguishable. And a shared language is in part a shared culture; not sure how that's any more of a "constructed identity" than Jewishness (especially considering the many centuries of separation and cultural difference between Ashkenazim, Sephardim and Mizrahim).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:01 PM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:01 PM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
today the IDF made a big deal about how they are working to evacuate these Hospitals. They posted this tweet that allegedly includes a conversation with a staff member at Rantisi Hospital.
IDF claims about similar evacuation in al Shifa Hospital have been denied:
IDF claims about similar evacuation in al Shifa Hospital have been denied:
“The staff of Al-Shifa Hospital has requested that tomorrow we will help the babies in the pediatric department to get to a safer hospital,” Admiral Hagari said at a televised news conference. “We will provide the assistance needed.”posted by BungaDunga at 6:36 PM on November 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
“These words are completely false,” Dr. Abu Salmiya said afterward. There was no safer hospital or any such coordination, he said.
Israel Accuses Freelance Photographers of Advance Knowledge of Oct. 7 Attack
The Israeli government on Thursday accused freelance photographers for several major news organizations, including The New York Times, of being “accomplices” in the killing and abductions of Israeli soldiers and civilians by Hamas fighters — an allegation The Times vigorously denied about its freelancer.
The government seized on a report by a pro-Israel media watchdog group, Honest Reporting, which has long accused The Times and other news organizations of anti-Israel bias in their coverage of Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians.
“These journalists were accomplices in crimes against humanity,” the public diplomacy department of the prime minister’s office said in a tersely worded statement. “Their actions were contrary to professional ethics.”
In its report, the watchdog group questioned why six Gaza-based photographers, all of whom were working for The Associated Press and Reuters, were early to document the incursion by Hamas into Israel on Oct. 7. The journalists photographed an Israeli tank that had been destroyed at the border of the Gaza Strip, soon after the militants broke through a fence and swarmed into Israeli territory.
It said one of the photographers, Hassan Eslaiah, took pictures of a house burning in Kibbutz Kfar Azza, a target of the deadly attack by militants, while two others documented Hamas fighters transporting kidnapped Israelis back to Gaza. These harrowing images were all published by The Associated Press, as was a Reuters photo of a mob carrying the body of an Israeli soldier.
While a fourth A.P. photographer named in the report, Yousef Masoud, has worked as a freelancer for The Times since shortly after the war began, he was not on assignment for the paper on the morning of Oct. 7, according to a statement issued by The Times. The Times rejected suggestions that it had advance warning of the attacks or had accompanied Hamas terrorists, calling the claims “untrue and outrageous.” It also said there was “no evidence for Honest Reporting’s insinuations” about Mr. Masoud.
“It is reckless to make those allegations, putting our journalists on the ground in Israel and Gaza at risk,” the statement said. “The Times has extensively covered the Oct. 7 attacks and the war with fairness, impartiality, and an abiding understanding of the complexities of the conflict.”
The Times said it had reviewed Mr. Masoud’s work for The Associated Press on Oct. 7 and determined that “he was doing what photojournalists always do during major news events, documenting the tragedy as it unfolded.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Israeli government on Thursday accused freelance photographers for several major news organizations, including The New York Times, of being “accomplices” in the killing and abductions of Israeli soldiers and civilians by Hamas fighters — an allegation The Times vigorously denied about its freelancer.
The government seized on a report by a pro-Israel media watchdog group, Honest Reporting, which has long accused The Times and other news organizations of anti-Israel bias in their coverage of Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians.
“These journalists were accomplices in crimes against humanity,” the public diplomacy department of the prime minister’s office said in a tersely worded statement. “Their actions were contrary to professional ethics.”
In its report, the watchdog group questioned why six Gaza-based photographers, all of whom were working for The Associated Press and Reuters, were early to document the incursion by Hamas into Israel on Oct. 7. The journalists photographed an Israeli tank that had been destroyed at the border of the Gaza Strip, soon after the militants broke through a fence and swarmed into Israeli territory.
It said one of the photographers, Hassan Eslaiah, took pictures of a house burning in Kibbutz Kfar Azza, a target of the deadly attack by militants, while two others documented Hamas fighters transporting kidnapped Israelis back to Gaza. These harrowing images were all published by The Associated Press, as was a Reuters photo of a mob carrying the body of an Israeli soldier.
While a fourth A.P. photographer named in the report, Yousef Masoud, has worked as a freelancer for The Times since shortly after the war began, he was not on assignment for the paper on the morning of Oct. 7, according to a statement issued by The Times. The Times rejected suggestions that it had advance warning of the attacks or had accompanied Hamas terrorists, calling the claims “untrue and outrageous.” It also said there was “no evidence for Honest Reporting’s insinuations” about Mr. Masoud.
“It is reckless to make those allegations, putting our journalists on the ground in Israel and Gaza at risk,” the statement said. “The Times has extensively covered the Oct. 7 attacks and the war with fairness, impartiality, and an abiding understanding of the complexities of the conflict.”
The Times said it had reviewed Mr. Masoud’s work for The Associated Press on Oct. 7 and determined that “he was doing what photojournalists always do during major news events, documenting the tragedy as it unfolded.”
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Isn't arguing about Zionism kinda pointless now since a Jewish homeland has been established for over 70 years, with a right-of-return and everything? The promise of Zionism has been fulfilled. The issue is resolved. Set the ticket's status to WONTFIX or WORKSFORME, whatever you like, and close it out already.
posted by mikelieman at 5:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 5:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
There are, right now, Zionists kicking Palestinians off of their land. This isn’t resolved.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [10 favorites]
also i wanna hear more about these accusations leveled against photojournalists because baselessly smearing journalists as fifth columnists and doers of crimes is a real bad look, like, it is one of the canonical looks associated with states doing that, and i would be greatly relieved were i to hear that these allegations are in fact not baseless, that they have so much base, because otherwise.
well, otherwise.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
well, otherwise.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
If anyone is still on the fence about trusting Israel's claims, today they have said that they found Mein Kampf in a child's room in Gaza. Next week it will be sarin in someone's garage or secret plans for a nuclear reactor hidden in medical records.
posted by ssg at 9:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ssg at 9:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
The head of that "HonestReporting" group has accepted as "adequate" all 4 news organizations' explanation of their journalists' work and is now distancing the group from the Israeli government's calls to kill the journalists involved:
"We are deeply concerned about the irresponsibility of HonestReporting in publishing such damaging accusations. Its executive director has accepted that there is no evidence to support the incendiary insinuations in the report," Reuters said in a statement.
"The baseless speculation in HonestReporting's post, presented as 'raising ethical questions,' has posed grave risks to journalists in the region, including those working for Reuters," the news agency added...
Hoffman...defended his group's decision to post its article without first seeking comment from any of the news organisations it had named. He said that after the article was posted he had asked his team why they had not sought comment before publication.
"They said 'well we do not claim to be a news organisation'," he said. "With media monitoring it's more effective (to ask for a response) afterwards, in general."
posted by mediareport at 9:16 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
"We are deeply concerned about the irresponsibility of HonestReporting in publishing such damaging accusations. Its executive director has accepted that there is no evidence to support the incendiary insinuations in the report," Reuters said in a statement.
"The baseless speculation in HonestReporting's post, presented as 'raising ethical questions,' has posed grave risks to journalists in the region, including those working for Reuters," the news agency added...
Hoffman...defended his group's decision to post its article without first seeking comment from any of the news organisations it had named. He said that after the article was posted he had asked his team why they had not sought comment before publication.
"They said 'well we do not claim to be a news organisation'," he said. "With media monitoring it's more effective (to ask for a response) afterwards, in general."
posted by mediareport at 9:16 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
(The group's justifications for the stunt are horseshit, of course.)
posted by mediareport at 9:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 9:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
these accusations leveled against photojournalists
The whole current Gaza situation is gut-churning, but I felt a particular sickness when I read of this accusation a few days ago. The Gaza containment has been The Way Things Are for like 18 years? If you're there, whether a journalist or not, you see and hear things, you hear rumours, you might get tips, and some lead to being in the right place at the right time, to see some rockets being launched or a fence probed... but now you are a terrorist just for doing your job?
I get that there's revulsion at the idea that someone might have known of an upcoming terror attack and did not do anything to prevent it, or warn (but some did, yes?)... but I don't expect that anyone outside of Hamas knew or expected that an atrocity was in the works....? I guess I'm asking that.
Tip to wannabee occupiers - extended oppression is not conducive to popular cooperation.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
The whole current Gaza situation is gut-churning, but I felt a particular sickness when I read of this accusation a few days ago. The Gaza containment has been The Way Things Are for like 18 years? If you're there, whether a journalist or not, you see and hear things, you hear rumours, you might get tips, and some lead to being in the right place at the right time, to see some rockets being launched or a fence probed... but now you are a terrorist just for doing your job?
I get that there's revulsion at the idea that someone might have known of an upcoming terror attack and did not do anything to prevent it, or warn (but some did, yes?)... but I don't expect that anyone outside of Hamas knew or expected that an atrocity was in the works....? I guess I'm asking that.
Tip to wannabee occupiers - extended oppression is not conducive to popular cooperation.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wonder if CNN and AP will rehire the freelancer they quickly announced they'd no longer be working with when the accusations first hit.
posted by mediareport at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2023
posted by mediareport at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2023
"The baseless speculation in HonestReporting's post, presented as 'raising ethical questions,' has posed grave risks to journalists in the region, including those working for Reuters," the news agency added...
"Just asking questions" indeed. What a disgusting stunt they pulled.
There are, right now, Zionists kicking Palestinians off of their land. This isn’t resolved.
The status of the occupied territories/Palestine is far from resolved, but the status of Israel as a nation is not something that is unresolved. The list of countries that have unpleasant, even genocidal, foundings is really long. (Like, I'm in the US and my house directly sits on land that was occupied for millennia prior to European settlement; the former occupants were variously killed, enslaved, and forced to move.) In a lot of cases the poor treatment continues into the present day. And yet, of all those countries, there's only one that has its legitimacy as a nation so routinely challenged.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Just asking questions" indeed. What a disgusting stunt they pulled.
There are, right now, Zionists kicking Palestinians off of their land. This isn’t resolved.
The status of the occupied territories/Palestine is far from resolved, but the status of Israel as a nation is not something that is unresolved. The list of countries that have unpleasant, even genocidal, foundings is really long. (Like, I'm in the US and my house directly sits on land that was occupied for millennia prior to European settlement; the former occupants were variously killed, enslaved, and forced to move.) In a lot of cases the poor treatment continues into the present day. And yet, of all those countries, there's only one that has its legitimacy as a nation so routinely challenged.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:27 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
If anyone is still on the fence about trusting Israel's claims, today they have said that they found Mein Kampf in a child's room in Gaza.
What's your point? It's amazing how much shit people post here that only makes sense if you already bought completely into their worldview. Is it your contention that you know something/anything about the truth here? Or is it more like you already have an opinion and now your just collecting, what, trash?
posted by Wood at 9:30 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
What's your point? It's amazing how much shit people post here that only makes sense if you already bought completely into their worldview. Is it your contention that you know something/anything about the truth here? Or is it more like you already have an opinion and now your just collecting, what, trash?
posted by Wood at 9:30 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
The list of countries that have unpleasant, even genocidal, foundings is really long
Agree with your broader point but let’s not forget that US/Australia/whatever != Israel. There are Palestinians whose family were slaughtered and kicked out of their homes in 48 who are still alive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Agree with your broader point but let’s not forget that US/Australia/whatever != Israel. There are Palestinians whose family were slaughtered and kicked out of their homes in 48 who are still alive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Just asking questions" indeed. What a disgusting stunt they pulled.
Unbelievable they admitted they did it solely for political propaganda because they were frightened that the focus had shifted so heavily from Hamas' slaughter of children on 10/7 to Israel's slaughter of children nearly every day since.
posted by mediareport at 9:45 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unbelievable they admitted they did it solely for political propaganda because they were frightened that the focus had shifted so heavily from Hamas' slaughter of children on 10/7 to Israel's slaughter of children nearly every day since.
posted by mediareport at 9:45 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
but let’s not forget that US/Australia/whatever != Israel. There are Palestinians whose family were slaughtered and kicked out of their homes in 48 who are still alive.
The tragedy of the boarding schools (i.e., eradication of culture and language, forced removal of children) in the US and Canada (and I believe Australia as well) continued well into living memory, just to pick one small example that arguably meets the UN definitions for genocidal activities. Again, the difference in how Israel's legitimacy is questioned vs how similar activities elsewhere are discussed is striking.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
The tragedy of the boarding schools (i.e., eradication of culture and language, forced removal of children) in the US and Canada (and I believe Australia as well) continued well into living memory, just to pick one small example that arguably meets the UN definitions for genocidal activities. Again, the difference in how Israel's legitimacy is questioned vs how similar activities elsewhere are discussed is striking.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think the heated debates about celebrations of Columbus Day in the U.S. over the last decade show that many folks still discuss "similar activities elsewhere" with the vehemence they're currently bringing to this discussion.
posted by mediareport at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 9:54 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think the heated debates about celebrations of Columbus Day in the U.S. over the last decade show that many folks still discuss "similar activities elsewhere" with the vehemence they're currently bringing to this discussion.
I mean, very few discussions about celebrating Columbus Day take the present legitimacy of the United States of America as a starting point, nor do they paint modern-day believers in the legitimacy of the US as fascists. Now, admittedly, the US doesn't currently present itself as a state "for" any one ethnic or religious group—regardless of the actual rights or lack thereof of other groups within the state. So it's clearly a poor analogy in other ways. But I think it's definitely not the same level of vehemence at play in both discussions.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:04 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mean, very few discussions about celebrating Columbus Day take the present legitimacy of the United States of America as a starting point, nor do they paint modern-day believers in the legitimacy of the US as fascists. Now, admittedly, the US doesn't currently present itself as a state "for" any one ethnic or religious group—regardless of the actual rights or lack thereof of other groups within the state. So it's clearly a poor analogy in other ways. But I think it's definitely not the same level of vehemence at play in both discussions.
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:04 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
how many native americans got bombed out of their homes today?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
trying to answer my own question re prior warnings of the Oct 7 attack:
US intelligence warned of the potential for violence days before Hamas attack
[IDF] Surveillance soldiers warned of Hamas activity on Gaza border for months before Oct. 7
Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
... but yeah, let's kill a few (more) journalists for not giving the IDF tipline a dingle.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
US intelligence warned of the potential for violence days before Hamas attack
[IDF] Surveillance soldiers warned of Hamas activity on Gaza border for months before Oct. 7
Survivors of massacre on IDF base say they passed information up the chain of command on digging, mapping, training near the fence long before mass onslaught, but were ignoredC.I.A. Reports Contained General Warnings of Potential Gaza Flare-up
Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says
... but yeah, let's kill a few (more) journalists for not giving the IDF tipline a dingle.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
of all those countries, there's only one that has its legitimacy as a nation so routinely challenged
I'd be saying the same thing about the USA's treatment of Native Americans and enslavement of Africans if I lived in a time period when that was relevant. And Israel was founded after WWII, which led to some significant changes in international law. For instance: ethnic cleansing/forced removal was found to be both a war crime and a crime against humanity at Nuremberg; it's foundational to Israel's existence. No Nakba, no Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'd be saying the same thing about the USA's treatment of Native Americans and enslavement of Africans if I lived in a time period when that was relevant. And Israel was founded after WWII, which led to some significant changes in international law. For instance: ethnic cleansing/forced removal was found to be both a war crime and a crime against humanity at Nuremberg; it's foundational to Israel's existence. No Nakba, no Israel.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:08 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
If you can’t distinguish between what Canada has done in living memory with the destruction of hundreds of villages and the depopulation of over 500 villages and forced removal of 750000 refugees, I really don’t know what to say. The scale of 1948 was massive.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
today they have said that they found Mein Kampf in a child's room in Gaza
How did this book managed to be kept so clean?
posted by cendawanita at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2023
How did this book managed to be kept so clean?
posted by cendawanita at 10:16 AM on November 12, 2023
It's the scale, it's the dramatically increased ease of reporting on events compared to decades or centuries ago, it's the now factor -- that it's not an isolated incident that happened fifty or two hundred years ago but, rather, an ongoing saga -- and it's the unquestioning support that one side receives over the other despite considerable evidence of chronically unclean hands.
And one thing we also have in America is a cadre of politically-influential deniers, who scream that teaching children or broadcasting news about our racial / ethnic / sexual / religious discrimination, historical atrocities and current misdeeds alike, is a betrayal of our Morally Perfect Founding Fathers and our Divinely Inspired Nation and grounds for firing people for being Woke Critical Race Theorists. It makes it difficult for actual conversation about them to sink in.
posted by delfin at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
And one thing we also have in America is a cadre of politically-influential deniers, who scream that teaching children or broadcasting news about our racial / ethnic / sexual / religious discrimination, historical atrocities and current misdeeds alike, is a betrayal of our Morally Perfect Founding Fathers and our Divinely Inspired Nation and grounds for firing people for being Woke Critical Race Theorists. It makes it difficult for actual conversation about them to sink in.
posted by delfin at 10:29 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
USA's treatment of Native Americans and enslavement of Africans if I lived in a time period when that was relevant.
"Hey guys good news there's no institutional racism and the 2.6 million Natives on the res aren't relevant"
posted by Jarcat at 10:38 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
"Hey guys good news there's no institutional racism and the 2.6 million Natives on the res aren't relevant"
posted by Jarcat at 10:38 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't see how we can be expected to believe both that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, who have a right to return, because of some poorly-evidenced claims about what happened 3000 years ago, and that Palestinians driven off their land at gunpoint in the last 75 years have no rights.
posted by ssg at 10:41 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ssg at 10:41 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Hey guys good news there's no institutional racism and the 2.6 million Natives on the res aren't relevant"
Don't know why you'd assume that I'm either ignorant of those things or don't care about them (they are not, however, relevant to the topic at hand). Why do Israel's defenders never have any arguments that aren't reducible to either whataboutism or special pleading?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Don't know why you'd assume that I'm either ignorant of those things or don't care about them (they are not, however, relevant to the topic at hand). Why do Israel's defenders never have any arguments that aren't reducible to either whataboutism or special pleading?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:47 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
These recent accusations and death threats levelled by Israeli politicians against some photojournalists must have Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman smiling from ear to ear.
Oh well, maybe killing journalists is something that Saudi Arabia and Israel can bond over.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Oh well, maybe killing journalists is something that Saudi Arabia and Israel can bond over.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:48 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't see how we can be expected to believe both that Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people, who have a right to return, because of some poorly-evidenced claims about what happened 3000 years ago, and that Palestinians driven off their land at gunpoint in the last 75 years have no rights.
Agree with the conclusion, confused about what you mean by "poorly-evidenced claims." Is the question whether Jews occupied the land 3000 years ago or whether today's Jews are truly the descendants of those former occupants?
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agree with the conclusion, confused about what you mean by "poorly-evidenced claims." Is the question whether Jews occupied the land 3000 years ago or whether today's Jews are truly the descendants of those former occupants?
posted by the tartare yolk at 10:49 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
"The US is a settler-colonial state" is not a controversial statement among educated Americans. If you say that the US was founded in genocidal bloodshed, and that we owe Native Americans far more than we've given them, no one will call you a racist or a bigot. The Secretary of the Interior does not have a mural in his home celebrating the murder of Native Americans. If you say that our cities are built on stolen indigenous land, no security services will show up to your house and arrest you for sedition.
There is no law preventing Native Americans who currently live on a reservation from moving back to the land of their ancestors (though obviously the operation of capitalism often makes this practically-impossible). There is no special carveout preventing American citizens from marrying Native Americans. Native Americans are allowed to vote in federal, state, and local, elections.
These seem like some of the relevant differences.
posted by rishabguha at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
There is no law preventing Native Americans who currently live on a reservation from moving back to the land of their ancestors (though obviously the operation of capitalism often makes this practically-impossible). There is no special carveout preventing American citizens from marrying Native Americans. Native Americans are allowed to vote in federal, state, and local, elections.
These seem like some of the relevant differences.
posted by rishabguha at 10:51 AM on November 12, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's pretty clear, reading between the lines, that not everyone here agrees with the proposition "Israel should continue to exist."
Here are my beliefs, laid out clearly:
1. Modern day Jews, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi, are the descendants of the ancient Israelites who were forcibly removed from the land Israel currently occupies 2,000 years ago by the Romans and prevented from returning by successive controllers of the land. This history is very well documented. Diasporic Jews are all one people, through shared heritage, shared culture, shared religion, shared language, and more.
2. Theodore Herzl is no more the be all end all of Zionism than George Washington is the be all end all of American politics. The ideology of a return to Zion is a common thread through 2,000 years of history in the diaspora, east and west. There is a well-established history of movement from the diaspora to Israel by Jews whenever possible over the 2,000 years of diaspora.
3. Most Israeli Jews did not move to Israel because they were believers in the Zionist political ideology. The vast majority of Israelis today are the descendants of refugees who were displaced either by the Holocaust or by oppression/expulsion from other countries.
4. The term 'Zionist' can mean, on one end, anyone who wants Israel to continue to exist, and on the other, only those who subscribe to the political ideology of a Jewish state developed by Herzl and others, plus the denial of any Palestinian claims on the land whatsoever, or any rights at all, up to and including the right to life. It is often used in a way which ascribes the latter position to anyone who holds the former.
5. There is no means of dissolving the Israeli state short of slaughter of the Jews who live there. There is nowhere for the majority of them to 'return' to. Any realistic solution to the conflict must include the continuation of an Israeli state.
6. The other nations in the Middle East would continue to oppose the existence of Israel even should the occupation end with a two-state solution. Israel will continue to face existential threats regardless of what it does and concedes.
7. Netanyahu and the Israeli right-wing are no more definitively representative of Israel and 'Zionism' than Trump and the American right-wing are definitively representative of America.
Here are some things those beliefs are compatible with:
1. The Nakba happened and was an atrocity.
2. The historical connection between the Jewish people and Israel does not give them a greater right to the land than the Palestinians who inhabited it in 1948.
3. The pattern of settlement in the West Bank and Gaza, ongoing since the 70s, is morally wrong, whether or not it is literally illegal according to international law.
4. Israel is committing war crimes right now in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel's actions are a moral travesty and should be opposed in every way.
5. Israel's actions in this war are contrary to its interests in every respect.
6. The Israeli right-wing consists of genocidal maniacs and must be opposed.
Anyone has the right to disagree with me on any of these points. But I'm pretty convinced that, if nothing else, these are all internally consistent positions to hold. I also think that disagreement with the first point almost always evinces at best a wilful ignorance of Jewish history, and at worst and most often outright antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on November 12, 2023 [27 favorites]
Here are my beliefs, laid out clearly:
1. Modern day Jews, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi, are the descendants of the ancient Israelites who were forcibly removed from the land Israel currently occupies 2,000 years ago by the Romans and prevented from returning by successive controllers of the land. This history is very well documented. Diasporic Jews are all one people, through shared heritage, shared culture, shared religion, shared language, and more.
2. Theodore Herzl is no more the be all end all of Zionism than George Washington is the be all end all of American politics. The ideology of a return to Zion is a common thread through 2,000 years of history in the diaspora, east and west. There is a well-established history of movement from the diaspora to Israel by Jews whenever possible over the 2,000 years of diaspora.
3. Most Israeli Jews did not move to Israel because they were believers in the Zionist political ideology. The vast majority of Israelis today are the descendants of refugees who were displaced either by the Holocaust or by oppression/expulsion from other countries.
4. The term 'Zionist' can mean, on one end, anyone who wants Israel to continue to exist, and on the other, only those who subscribe to the political ideology of a Jewish state developed by Herzl and others, plus the denial of any Palestinian claims on the land whatsoever, or any rights at all, up to and including the right to life. It is often used in a way which ascribes the latter position to anyone who holds the former.
5. There is no means of dissolving the Israeli state short of slaughter of the Jews who live there. There is nowhere for the majority of them to 'return' to. Any realistic solution to the conflict must include the continuation of an Israeli state.
6. The other nations in the Middle East would continue to oppose the existence of Israel even should the occupation end with a two-state solution. Israel will continue to face existential threats regardless of what it does and concedes.
7. Netanyahu and the Israeli right-wing are no more definitively representative of Israel and 'Zionism' than Trump and the American right-wing are definitively representative of America.
Here are some things those beliefs are compatible with:
1. The Nakba happened and was an atrocity.
2. The historical connection between the Jewish people and Israel does not give them a greater right to the land than the Palestinians who inhabited it in 1948.
3. The pattern of settlement in the West Bank and Gaza, ongoing since the 70s, is morally wrong, whether or not it is literally illegal according to international law.
4. Israel is committing war crimes right now in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel's actions are a moral travesty and should be opposed in every way.
5. Israel's actions in this war are contrary to its interests in every respect.
6. The Israeli right-wing consists of genocidal maniacs and must be opposed.
Anyone has the right to disagree with me on any of these points. But I'm pretty convinced that, if nothing else, these are all internally consistent positions to hold. I also think that disagreement with the first point almost always evinces at best a wilful ignorance of Jewish history, and at worst and most often outright antisemitism.
posted by cosmic owl at 10:52 AM on November 12, 2023 [27 favorites]
It's pretty clear, reading between the lines, that not everyone here agrees with the proposition "Israel should continue to exist."
I don't think Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish ethnostate. The only equitable solution would be a single, secular, democratic state with equal rights for all its inhabitants. (I am not the only person who thinks this.)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:57 AM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
1. Modern day Jews, Ashkenazi, Sephardi, and Mizrahi, are the descendants of the ancient Israelites who were forcibly removed from the land Israel currently occupies 2,000 years ago by the Romans and prevented from returning by successive controllers of the land. This history is very well documented. Diasporic Jews are all one people, through shared heritage, shared culture, shared religion, shared language, and more.
To the extent to which this is true, I think all available genetic and historical evidence attests that modern-day Palestinian Christians and Muslims are just as closely descended from the people who inhabited the land of Israel in the time of the Romans. I don't think there's any way to show that modern-day Jews have any claim or connection that supersedes or predates that of modern-day Palestinians.
posted by rishabguha at 10:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
To the extent to which this is true, I think all available genetic and historical evidence attests that modern-day Palestinian Christians and Muslims are just as closely descended from the people who inhabited the land of Israel in the time of the Romans. I don't think there's any way to show that modern-day Jews have any claim or connection that supersedes or predates that of modern-day Palestinians.
posted by rishabguha at 10:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't think Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish ethnostate. The only equitable solution would be a single, secular, democratic state with equal rights for all its inhabitants. (I am not the only person who thinks this.)
I'm a thickie, and even I can understand that the resulting demographics of a secular single state would effectively end Israel as a safe Jewish homeland. It would devolve into civil war in no time.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm a thickie, and even I can understand that the resulting demographics of a secular single state would effectively end Israel as a safe Jewish homeland. It would devolve into civil war in no time.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think there's any way to show that modern-day Jews have any claim or connection that supersedes or predates that of modern-day Palestinians.
True, fair, and in no way inconsistent with cosmic owl's argument (see no. 2 in the second list of points).
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
True, fair, and in no way inconsistent with cosmic owl's argument (see no. 2 in the second list of points).
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:03 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
The tragedy of the boarding schools (i.e., eradication of culture and language, forced removal of children) in the US and Canada (and I believe Australia as well) continued well into living memory, just to pick one small example that arguably meets the UN definitions for genocidal activities
Residential schools for indigenous people in Canada continue to operate well into the late 20th century. I can't remember the exact date either the 1970s or maybe the 1990s, later than anyone can usually thinks.
These schools not only intended to commit cultural genocide, they also succeeded literally killing thousands of children. Unmarked graves keep being found.
The founding of Israel is more recent than the founding of Canada, Australia, the US., Though in the case of Canada, it's only about 80 years between the two, and our last province joined after the founding of Israel, just as Alaska and Hawaii were added to the United States after the founding of Israel.
posted by jb at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Residential schools for indigenous people in Canada continue to operate well into the late 20th century. I can't remember the exact date either the 1970s or maybe the 1990s, later than anyone can usually thinks.
These schools not only intended to commit cultural genocide, they also succeeded literally killing thousands of children. Unmarked graves keep being found.
The founding of Israel is more recent than the founding of Canada, Australia, the US., Though in the case of Canada, it's only about 80 years between the two, and our last province joined after the founding of Israel, just as Alaska and Hawaii were added to the United States after the founding of Israel.
posted by jb at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I’m no geneticist but aren’t we all the descendants of Charlemagne?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2023
Seems to me there are three positions.
1) ethnostates are good.
2) ethnostates are bad.
3) this one ethnostate is good (that has the ethnicity i like/identify with), others are bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
1) ethnostates are good.
2) ethnostates are bad.
3) this one ethnostate is good (that has the ethnicity i like/identify with), others are bad.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
True, fair, and in no way inconsistent with cosmic owl's argument (see no. 2 in the second list of points).
Totally agreed. I did want to push back against the implicit narrative that the Jews were expelled from Israel as a whole people, and forced to wander the world, while Arabs moved in from somewhere else. As best we can tell, the actual population history of the region was far more continuous than that.
posted by rishabguha at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
Totally agreed. I did want to push back against the implicit narrative that the Jews were expelled from Israel as a whole people, and forced to wander the world, while Arabs moved in from somewhere else. As best we can tell, the actual population history of the region was far more continuous than that.
posted by rishabguha at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I’m no geneticist but aren’t we all the descendants of Charlemagne?
Given that the number of potential ancestors one has doubles with every generation, and that the average length of a generation is 30 years, there have been 66 generations since the first century CE, one would have 73 quadrillion ancestors 2000 years back, if they were all unique (which is impossible, since that's many times greater than the total number of humans who have ever lived), so it's almost certain that everyone alive today is descended from the ancient inhabitants of Israel (and also from ancient Romans, Persians, etc).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given that the number of potential ancestors one has doubles with every generation, and that the average length of a generation is 30 years, there have been 66 generations since the first century CE, one would have 73 quadrillion ancestors 2000 years back, if they were all unique (which is impossible, since that's many times greater than the total number of humans who have ever lived), so it's almost certain that everyone alive today is descended from the ancient inhabitants of Israel (and also from ancient Romans, Persians, etc).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:13 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
cosmic owl, the key for me is the definition of "Jewish state." There have long been plenty of Jews, including Israeli Jews, who oppose the idea of an Orthodox theocratic state, which some folks seem to think is the sine qua non of "Jewish state." Secular Jews who oppose that horrible notion are often painted as anti-Semitic for their commitment to democracy over theocracy, but they're there, and always have been, and their position is not equivalent to "Israel should not continue to exist," no matter how much fundamentalist far-right Jews might try to equate the two.
I mean, it's currently a big deal that buses, trains and airplanes are now running on Saturday in Israel - something secular Israelis were publicly protesting for as recently as August. Ha'aretz even noted this last week:
So when Hamas attacked, on Shabbat and a holiday, public transportation across the country was not functioning. That meant reservists had to make their way to their bases on their own.
More from that article:
The issue of public transportation in Israel has long been a contentious one, with protesters as recently as August demonstrating at several stations of the newly-opened Tel Aviv light rail, in response to closing the line early ahead of the Sabbath...
In 2021, under the previous government, then-Transportation Minister Merav Michaeli told Haaretz’s Conference on Democracy that she and her colleagues would work to revise the religious status quo related to public transportation on Shabbat “with all our might.”
However, despite releasing a set of proposed regulations allowing public transport on Shabbat, the status quo ultimately remained, with the return of Netanyahu and his ultra-Orthodox allies to power essentially nixing the possibility of change in the near term. Despite this, according to the Be Free Israel advocacy group, 13 municipalities are now operating some form of free public transportation projects.
posted by mediareport at 11:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, it's currently a big deal that buses, trains and airplanes are now running on Saturday in Israel - something secular Israelis were publicly protesting for as recently as August. Ha'aretz even noted this last week:
So when Hamas attacked, on Shabbat and a holiday, public transportation across the country was not functioning. That meant reservists had to make their way to their bases on their own.
More from that article:
The issue of public transportation in Israel has long been a contentious one, with protesters as recently as August demonstrating at several stations of the newly-opened Tel Aviv light rail, in response to closing the line early ahead of the Sabbath...
In 2021, under the previous government, then-Transportation Minister Merav Michaeli told Haaretz’s Conference on Democracy that she and her colleagues would work to revise the religious status quo related to public transportation on Shabbat “with all our might.”
However, despite releasing a set of proposed regulations allowing public transport on Shabbat, the status quo ultimately remained, with the return of Netanyahu and his ultra-Orthodox allies to power essentially nixing the possibility of change in the near term. Despite this, according to the Be Free Israel advocacy group, 13 municipalities are now operating some form of free public transportation projects.
posted by mediareport at 11:18 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Seems to me there are three positions.
1) ethnostates are good.
2) ethnostates are bad.
3) this one ethnostate is good (that has the ethnicity i like/identify with), others are bad.
4) ethnostates are bad, but other ethnostates aren't treated like Israel (for which, again, there are multiple reasons, but boiling the question down to "ethnostates are good/bad" isn't helpful here; otherwise I'd expect to see you coming after Armenia in Armenia threads, etc.)
5) ethnostates are bad, but plurinational democracies have not shown themselves to be a particularly stable alternative (see: Weimar Germany, Yugoslavia, arguably the USA)—so where do we go from here?
etc.
I don't necessarily subscribe to either of these views (and to the extent that I do, certainly not wholeheartedly), but again, portraying Zionists as either raging ethnonationalists or raging hypocrites seems reductive, to say the least.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:22 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
1) ethnostates are good.
2) ethnostates are bad.
3) this one ethnostate is good (that has the ethnicity i like/identify with), others are bad.
4) ethnostates are bad, but other ethnostates aren't treated like Israel (for which, again, there are multiple reasons, but boiling the question down to "ethnostates are good/bad" isn't helpful here; otherwise I'd expect to see you coming after Armenia in Armenia threads, etc.)
5) ethnostates are bad, but plurinational democracies have not shown themselves to be a particularly stable alternative (see: Weimar Germany, Yugoslavia, arguably the USA)—so where do we go from here?
etc.
I don't necessarily subscribe to either of these views (and to the extent that I do, certainly not wholeheartedly), but again, portraying Zionists as either raging ethnonationalists or raging hypocrites seems reductive, to say the least.
posted by the tartare yolk at 11:22 AM on November 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't think Israel should continue to exist as a Jewish ethnostate. The only equitable solution would be a single, secular, democratic state with equal rights for all its inhabitants. (I am not the only person who thinks this.)
Thank you for stating this clearly. I agree that this would be the only equitable and just solution. I simply don't think it's feasible.
To the extent to which this is true, I think all available genetic and historical evidence attests that modern-day Palestinian Christians and Muslims are just as closely descended from the people who inhabited the land of Israel in the time of the Romans. I don't think there's any way to show that modern-day Jews have any claim or connection that supersedes or predates that of modern-day Palestinians.
We also agree! I think Jewish people have a claim on the land, but not an exclusive claim on the land. I am far more closely related to the modern-day Druze and Palestinians than I am to my grandparents' Polish neighbors. To the extent that blood does or should matter at all, that makes the conflict especially tragic.
I’m no geneticist but aren’t we all the descendants of Charlemagne?
Nope! I find this subject extremely distasteful to debate, but Jewish people are probably the population subject to the most genetic study on the planet. Overall studies have found a very low rate of admixture and closer genetic ties between Jews around the world than between Jews and their non-Jewish neighbors. The Wikipedia article on the subject is a good starting point for examining the evidence and forming your own conclusions.
cosmic owl, the key for me is the definition of "Jewish state." There have long been plenty of Jews, including Israeli Jews, who oppose the idea of an Orthodox theocratic state, which some folks seem to think is the sine qua non of "Jewish state." Secular Jews who oppose that horrible notion are often painted as anti-Semitic for their commitment to democracy over theocracy, but they're there, and always have been, and their position is not equivalent to "Israel should not continue to exist," no matter how much fundamentalist far-right Jews might try to equate the two.
I am one of those secular Jews! I think there is something that could be called a 'Jewish state' that is not a theocratic or halakhic state. A lot of Israelis agree. There are a whole lot of tensions in that idea. I don't think it's fundamentally different from or more impossible to resolve than race issues in America, or nationalism in France, or a theocratic Iran vs. the more secular one that existed before the Islamic Revolution.
I'm not going to try to defend my beliefs from every possible objection, because I don't want to bog this down into a debate, and almost all of them could be reasonably pushed back on. But I think when we clearly articulate our beliefs like this it helps clarify where we do agree, and I appreciate hearing others clarify where they stand and what the true points of disagreement are.
posted by cosmic owl at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2023 [17 favorites]
Thank you for stating this clearly. I agree that this would be the only equitable and just solution. I simply don't think it's feasible.
To the extent to which this is true, I think all available genetic and historical evidence attests that modern-day Palestinian Christians and Muslims are just as closely descended from the people who inhabited the land of Israel in the time of the Romans. I don't think there's any way to show that modern-day Jews have any claim or connection that supersedes or predates that of modern-day Palestinians.
We also agree! I think Jewish people have a claim on the land, but not an exclusive claim on the land. I am far more closely related to the modern-day Druze and Palestinians than I am to my grandparents' Polish neighbors. To the extent that blood does or should matter at all, that makes the conflict especially tragic.
I’m no geneticist but aren’t we all the descendants of Charlemagne?
Nope! I find this subject extremely distasteful to debate, but Jewish people are probably the population subject to the most genetic study on the planet. Overall studies have found a very low rate of admixture and closer genetic ties between Jews around the world than between Jews and their non-Jewish neighbors. The Wikipedia article on the subject is a good starting point for examining the evidence and forming your own conclusions.
cosmic owl, the key for me is the definition of "Jewish state." There have long been plenty of Jews, including Israeli Jews, who oppose the idea of an Orthodox theocratic state, which some folks seem to think is the sine qua non of "Jewish state." Secular Jews who oppose that horrible notion are often painted as anti-Semitic for their commitment to democracy over theocracy, but they're there, and always have been, and their position is not equivalent to "Israel should not continue to exist," no matter how much fundamentalist far-right Jews might try to equate the two.
I am one of those secular Jews! I think there is something that could be called a 'Jewish state' that is not a theocratic or halakhic state. A lot of Israelis agree. There are a whole lot of tensions in that idea. I don't think it's fundamentally different from or more impossible to resolve than race issues in America, or nationalism in France, or a theocratic Iran vs. the more secular one that existed before the Islamic Revolution.
I'm not going to try to defend my beliefs from every possible objection, because I don't want to bog this down into a debate, and almost all of them could be reasonably pushed back on. But I think when we clearly articulate our beliefs like this it helps clarify where we do agree, and I appreciate hearing others clarify where they stand and what the true points of disagreement are.
posted by cosmic owl at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2023 [17 favorites]
Seems to me there are three positions.
4) the world sucks. It's a sad fact that there are a few cases where a homeland, even with an ethically-troubling modern foundation, is necessary for the defence, security and aspirations of some ethnicities. Forced nationbuilding (eg Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, USSR) doesn't often hang together
5) Ethnostates aren't forever; democratic states with internal secular influences will hopefully evolve, and engage with their neighbours, if the neighbours are like-minded.
In review, sort of agreeing with the tartare yolk.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:31 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
4) the world sucks. It's a sad fact that there are a few cases where a homeland, even with an ethically-troubling modern foundation, is necessary for the defence, security and aspirations of some ethnicities. Forced nationbuilding (eg Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, USSR) doesn't often hang together
5) Ethnostates aren't forever; democratic states with internal secular influences will hopefully evolve, and engage with their neighbours, if the neighbours are like-minded.
In review, sort of agreeing with the tartare yolk.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:31 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Residential schools for indigenous people in Canada continue to operate well into the late 20th century. I can't remember the exact date either the 1970s or maybe the 1990s, later than anyone can usually thinks.
"The last federally-funded residential school, Kivalliq Hall in Rankin Inlet, closed in 1997. Schools operated in every province and territory with the exception of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island."
posted by elkevelvet at 11:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
"The last federally-funded residential school, Kivalliq Hall in Rankin Inlet, closed in 1997. Schools operated in every province and territory with the exception of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island."
posted by elkevelvet at 11:50 AM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think there is something that could be called a 'Jewish state' that is not a theocratic or halakhic state.
What would that look like to you? How would citizenship and voting rights work?
posted by mediareport at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
What would that look like to you? How would citizenship and voting rights work?
posted by mediareport at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
mediareport, for me personally, it looks like a state that constitutionally enshrines certain protections such that Jews can live safely and freely, without privileging them as citizens over other inhabitants or imposing halakha on inhabitants. Citizenship and voting rights look pretty much the same as they are nominally and in theory now, but in practice: full citizenship and voting rights for all inhabitants, Jewish or not. The ways in which it would be a Jewish state would be a commitment to being domestically a safe haven for Jews, which would involve maintaining the right to return, plus certain social conditions geared towards making it easier to practice Judaism, such as a Friday-Saturday weekend, availability of kosher food, Jewish holidays as national holidays wrt to being days off from work, etc. It would not involve a rabbinate that has jurisdiction over e.g. marriage. Public services of all kind would be available on Shabbat. There would be no Hasidic exemption from military service. Etc. Basically, maximizing ability to practice Judaism while minimizing imposition of halakha. The primary advantage of it being in Israel rather than Brooklyn is that it goes some way towards ensuring Jewish access to holy sites and the ability to practice the aspects of Judaism which are only possible in Israel (a significant number of mitzvot), which was not historically the case before the establishment of Israel. No such access would be exclusive; every holy site would be accessible to everyone regardless of religion or gender.
There are a lot of problems with this vision — privileging one religion/culture will inherently disprivilege others. There are infinite weeds to get into on any of these points. It would be unjust to treat Jewish holidays as national holidays but not Muslim holidays. Muslim holidays should also be national holidays. What about Christian holidays? There's maybe a limit to how many national holidays you can have before it's detrimental to the economy. Maybe you get to pick your holiday set that you want to have off work. I don't know. The state I'm describing is unjust and prejudicial. But I think not more so than the United States right now, which privileges Christianity in many visible and invisible ways. In my ideal world this state doesn't exist at all, because there's no need for it. But I think there is a version of Israel which is a Jewish state insofar as it enshrines the two pillars of being somewhere all Jews can go and be welcome and being somewhere where it is easy and convenient to practice Judaism, while maintaining equal citizenship and voting rights across its entire population and without theocratic institutions. I'm happy to discuss this more in memail — I have no aversion to discussing it openly, but I also don't want to derail the thread.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
There are a lot of problems with this vision — privileging one religion/culture will inherently disprivilege others. There are infinite weeds to get into on any of these points. It would be unjust to treat Jewish holidays as national holidays but not Muslim holidays. Muslim holidays should also be national holidays. What about Christian holidays? There's maybe a limit to how many national holidays you can have before it's detrimental to the economy. Maybe you get to pick your holiday set that you want to have off work. I don't know. The state I'm describing is unjust and prejudicial. But I think not more so than the United States right now, which privileges Christianity in many visible and invisible ways. In my ideal world this state doesn't exist at all, because there's no need for it. But I think there is a version of Israel which is a Jewish state insofar as it enshrines the two pillars of being somewhere all Jews can go and be welcome and being somewhere where it is easy and convenient to practice Judaism, while maintaining equal citizenship and voting rights across its entire population and without theocratic institutions. I'm happy to discuss this more in memail — I have no aversion to discussing it openly, but I also don't want to derail the thread.
posted by cosmic owl at 12:49 PM on November 12, 2023 [24 favorites]
I don't think this is a derail at all! And I appreciate the detail in your answer and could live with almost all of that. No Palestinian right of return, though?
posted by mediareport at 1:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 1:56 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Big ceasefire march in Boston today, calling out Dem senators Elizabeth Warren and Ed Markey and Rep. Seth Moulton. [Nitter.net mirror, here's the Twitter original]
posted by mediareport at 2:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mediareport at 2:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
A single state solution is what we have now in a defacto sense. Israel imposes itself as the single state over the whole territory. Israel has to decide. Either they can keep the borders and keep the all people as citizens; or they have to negotiate a border that roughly matches the old green line and the Palestinians get a country of their own.
If they choose the first option then that means Israel has to accept the Palestinians as equal contributors to the culture and not aliens in their own land.
Israel has to decide what they want. They problem has been that Israel keeps finding excuses to put it off in hopes they can make the Palestinians leave and then choose the first option.
The Palestinians will also have to make a similar choice.
posted by interogative mood at 2:21 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
If they choose the first option then that means Israel has to accept the Palestinians as equal contributors to the culture and not aliens in their own land.
Israel has to decide what they want. They problem has been that Israel keeps finding excuses to put it off in hopes they can make the Palestinians leave and then choose the first option.
The Palestinians will also have to make a similar choice.
posted by interogative mood at 2:21 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Seems like the opposite of a derail to me cosmic owl!! I'm curious, though, about how you think about one of the really major questions at the root of things here: demographics. Obviously a person who exists anywhere on the spectrum of Zionist positions might say to you, "A Jewish homeland which does not protect and ensure a Jewish majority is literally not a Jewish homeland, and especially doesn't guarantee Jews in Israel freedom from future persecution." Do you think the guarantee of right to return, alongside the guarantees that make it easier to practice Judaism address that concern sufficiently?
Also, I'm curious whether the vision you sketch out is specifically a one-state solution in your mind, or whether you're unsure.
(Since we're stating our priors now--which I think is really helpful to this conversation--count me among those who (1) accept that there is and should be a Jewish homeland in Israel, but (2) are reflexively and ideologically uncomfortable with an ethnostate.)
posted by kensington314 at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, I'm curious whether the vision you sketch out is specifically a one-state solution in your mind, or whether you're unsure.
(Since we're stating our priors now--which I think is really helpful to this conversation--count me among those who (1) accept that there is and should be a Jewish homeland in Israel, but (2) are reflexively and ideologically uncomfortable with an ethnostate.)
posted by kensington314 at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I can't favorite cosmic owl's last comment hard enough. This is absolutely the best of MetaFilter.
posted by bcd at 2:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by bcd at 2:33 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm a thickie, and even I can understand that the resulting demographics of a secular single state would effectively end Israel as a safe Jewish homeland. It would devolve into civil war in no time.
If in free and fair elections your government cannot obtain the "consent of the governed", the problem isn't the "demographics" of the voters, it's the government.
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
If in free and fair elections your government cannot obtain the "consent of the governed", the problem isn't the "demographics" of the voters, it's the government.
posted by mikelieman at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
I support a Palestinian right of return as well as reparations across the board. There are a lot of complexities in practice, and the whole thing is unjust. There's no way to enshrine the protections for Jewish people in Israel such that they couldn't be undone by a future non-Jewish majority. So I do think a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza along with massive reparations is a more feasible state of affairs, with a more limited right of return than is truly just, given that those who return would need to consent to living in a state that in any way privileges Jews, even if it does and should afford the same protection to non-Jewish inhabitants. I have met Israeli Arabs and Palestinians in the West Bank who have shown that they are willing to live in this kind of state, to live alongside Jews as friends and neighbors. Demographics are a challenge from both sides - the Haredi population is growing much faster than the secular population in Israel, and they're also less likely to find my ideal version of Israel palatable. At a bare minimum, the opportunity to return and be full citizens of such a state should be offered to Palestinians.
No state of affairs can ever be constructed that will be assured to withstand the test of time. The best we can do is create the most just and universally acceptable situation in a particular moment in time, and then keep trying to do that, over and over and over.
posted by cosmic owl at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
No state of affairs can ever be constructed that will be assured to withstand the test of time. The best we can do is create the most just and universally acceptable situation in a particular moment in time, and then keep trying to do that, over and over and over.
posted by cosmic owl at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2023 [5 favorites]
If in free and fair elections your government cannot obtain the "consent of the governed", the problem isn't the "demographics" of the voters, it's the government.
You're assuming the entirety of the electorate supports free and fair elections to gather that consent. Even the United States, one of the bastions of representative democracy, has jurisdictions on the edge of wanting to abolish it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
You're assuming the entirety of the electorate supports free and fair elections to gather that consent. Even the United States, one of the bastions of representative democracy, has jurisdictions on the edge of wanting to abolish it.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:55 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
it's a genuine pity that there's no path toward a no-state solution, like, it's not like the united nations can swoop in and say "hey so we've decided that because of the long and very well documented history of this place going back like seven thousand years before everything and also because it's somewhere that was exactly at the interface between two of the cradles of civilization and there's some contestation that's been going on for all that time and also did you know for some reason three of the damn religions wait no four there's still some samaritans around, all those religions have declared this place maximum holy, because of all that we've decided that no one is allowed to have sovereignty over any of this land anymore, sorry, i hope all the ladders you have are where you want them to be because no one move anything," it's not like that can happen.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:23 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
The current discussion reminds me of a recent short interview NPR's Leila Fadel did with Yossi Beilin and Hiba Husseini, who unveiled in Feb 2022 on their proposed solution of a "Holy Land Confederation." I have not read the full 100+ page proposal, but this Haaretz article gives a sense of it, as does this article in Foreign Policy that they co-authored. I'm curious to listen to this workshop at UCLA that invited them both to talk (full video online - they start interviewing them around 7:20).
To the point already raised re: reparations, in the short NPR interview Husseini makes clear that no solution will stick if it doesn't address the rising material inequality btw Israel/Palestine.
Anyway, the idea of a confederation vs. two discrete states vs. one state makes a lot of practical sense (for reasons they lay out). It's also a good reminder that some Israelis and Palestinians have been thinking creatively about what peace might look like for decades - I'd say that any person who fits that description deserves attention/amplification.
posted by coffeecat at 3:25 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
To the point already raised re: reparations, in the short NPR interview Husseini makes clear that no solution will stick if it doesn't address the rising material inequality btw Israel/Palestine.
Anyway, the idea of a confederation vs. two discrete states vs. one state makes a lot of practical sense (for reasons they lay out). It's also a good reminder that some Israelis and Palestinians have been thinking creatively about what peace might look like for decades - I'd say that any person who fits that description deserves attention/amplification.
posted by coffeecat at 3:25 PM on November 12, 2023 [8 favorites]
What about Christian holidays? There's maybe a limit to how many national holidays you can have before it's detrimental to the economy
Lightheartedly, Malaysia and Singapore designate Chinese New Year, the two Eids, Deepavali/Diwali, Wesak (Buddha's birthday) and Christmas as federal public holidays with Malaysia having regional holidays for the harvest festivals, Easter, Vaisakhi, and certain Muslim holy days. Indonesia does staggered "Christmas bonus" for five recognized holidays to be paid out when appropriate to the observing employees: Christmas, Eid-ul-fitr, Nyepi (a Hindu one), Chinese New Year, and Wesak. If you've been to at least Malaysia and Indonesia you'll find porky and non-halal mainstream food as much as halal food. "Combination" religious holidays are treated with amusement. I think it's more than possible and I hope to see more Israelis finding commonalities from other parts of the world than the deeply embedded with Christianity West.
posted by cendawanita at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Lightheartedly, Malaysia and Singapore designate Chinese New Year, the two Eids, Deepavali/Diwali, Wesak (Buddha's birthday) and Christmas as federal public holidays with Malaysia having regional holidays for the harvest festivals, Easter, Vaisakhi, and certain Muslim holy days. Indonesia does staggered "Christmas bonus" for five recognized holidays to be paid out when appropriate to the observing employees: Christmas, Eid-ul-fitr, Nyepi (a Hindu one), Chinese New Year, and Wesak. If you've been to at least Malaysia and Indonesia you'll find porky and non-halal mainstream food as much as halal food. "Combination" religious holidays are treated with amusement. I think it's more than possible and I hope to see more Israelis finding commonalities from other parts of the world than the deeply embedded with Christianity West.
posted by cendawanita at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2023 [11 favorites]
Unfortunately the problem isn’t devising a sensible solution; it is that a lot of people in power don’t want one and their supporters actively work to undermine those solutions.
Today in powerful people making it worse Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) proudly proclaims Nakba 2023 in Gaza
In other war news:
Meanwhile the IDF now claims that the Gaza ministry of health is actively blocking efforts to get fuel to hospitals. The continue to deny shooting at the hospital. Lots of shooting is happening around the hospital. The Biden administration has told the Israeli government no firefights in the hospitals.
Hamas maybe made an offer to release 80 hostages in exchange for a short term ceasefire and the release of a 1000 Hamas pows, plus a bunch of fuel and other humanitarian supplies to be delivered during the ceasefire. Then they broke off talks citing the situations at the hospitals.
Jordan conducted another airdrop to Gaza their second in a week.
Reuters says the UAE has rejected calls to suspend diplomatic relations with Israel.
Rocket fire from Gaza has dropped significantly according to this graph posted on Twitter.
posted by interogative mood at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Today in powerful people making it worse Agriculture Minister Avi Dichter (Likud) proudly proclaims Nakba 2023 in Gaza
In other war news:
Meanwhile the IDF now claims that the Gaza ministry of health is actively blocking efforts to get fuel to hospitals. The continue to deny shooting at the hospital. Lots of shooting is happening around the hospital. The Biden administration has told the Israeli government no firefights in the hospitals.
Hamas maybe made an offer to release 80 hostages in exchange for a short term ceasefire and the release of a 1000 Hamas pows, plus a bunch of fuel and other humanitarian supplies to be delivered during the ceasefire. Then they broke off talks citing the situations at the hospitals.
Jordan conducted another airdrop to Gaza their second in a week.
Reuters says the UAE has rejected calls to suspend diplomatic relations with Israel.
Rocket fire from Gaza has dropped significantly according to this graph posted on Twitter.
posted by interogative mood at 5:50 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
"some reason three of the damn religions wait no four there's still some samaritans around, all those religions have declared this place maximum holy, because of all that we've decided that no one is allowed to have sovereignty over any of this land anymore, sorry, i hope all the ladders you have are where you want them to be because no one move anything," it's not like that can happen."
ah, the chutes and ladder moral argument for all the fathful.
"Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench."
-Baha'u'llah
But I like this one:
"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."
-Baha'u'llah
"The Associated Press cited four anonymous Palestinians who told the wire service that some Gazans are repeatedly voicing their dissent with Hamas’ rule publicly. The report said that “hundreds” of Gazans insulted Hamas during the night and called for an end to the war at an unspecified UN shelter in Gaza City. Witnesses told the outlet that some locals are “beating up policemen.”
A spokesperson for the UN agency focused on Palestinian refugees said that the Gaza Strip’s social fabric is “fraying” amid widespread violence among local civilians. The Associated Press report highlighted “riots” in food and water lines, as well as the level of violence “jarring” Gazan society.
posted by clavdivs at 7:02 PM on November 12, 2023
ah, the chutes and ladder moral argument for all the fathful.
"Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench."
-Baha'u'llah
But I like this one:
"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."
-Baha'u'llah
"The Associated Press cited four anonymous Palestinians who told the wire service that some Gazans are repeatedly voicing their dissent with Hamas’ rule publicly. The report said that “hundreds” of Gazans insulted Hamas during the night and called for an end to the war at an unspecified UN shelter in Gaza City. Witnesses told the outlet that some locals are “beating up policemen.”
A spokesperson for the UN agency focused on Palestinian refugees said that the Gaza Strip’s social fabric is “fraying” amid widespread violence among local civilians. The Associated Press report highlighted “riots” in food and water lines, as well as the level of violence “jarring” Gazan society.
posted by clavdivs at 7:02 PM on November 12, 2023
An interesting historical perspective in the context of the current discussion:
Imagine if the early Zionists had decided Argentina was the better option.
posted by ssg at 7:08 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
In 1895, Herzl didn't know where this Jewish homeland would be. In the diary entries out of which The Jewish State emerged he wrote a lot about South America because Jewish agricultural colonies had been set up there in the 1890s. Even in The Jewish State there is a brief section titled “Palestine or Argentina?”From Theodor Herzl and the trajectory of Zionism, which is interesting throughout.
Imagine if the early Zionists had decided Argentina was the better option.
posted by ssg at 7:08 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
interesting. But a year and a half later, posited at The Basel Program, Palestine was chosen. what were the deciding factors
in choosing Palestine over Argentina for a Homeland by "public law". Moreover, was the Jerusalem program an expansionist and consolidation agenda once by quote unquote public Law was established.
posted by clavdivs at 7:41 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
in choosing Palestine over Argentina for a Homeland by "public law". Moreover, was the Jerusalem program an expansionist and consolidation agenda once by quote unquote public Law was established.
posted by clavdivs at 7:41 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
In their link to their live updates, al-Jazeera tweets: The Ministry of Health in Gaza has not updated figures on deaths and injuries for a second consecutive day after communications and services collapsed at Gaza’s besieged hospitals, the UN has said.
Sana Saeed comments: Israel cannot ‘win’ the narrative war - that’s been made clear, despite the best efforts of US officials & press.
But Israel can bomb and destroy those who are telling us what’s happening in Gaza.
They targeted journalists, they targeted hospitals.
This is the outcome.
Semi-related to the current thread tangent, @Vanessaid: If you don’t actually know anything about decolonial theory, just say that. Jewish dispossession and expulsion, as well as pogroms and the holocaust, are cited across the discipline. But dispossessed people can BECOME settlers. Latin America and Asia are full of examples. Read.
Flagging for something worth tracking: allegations based on eyewitness accounts in Gaza (from those displaced from the al-Nasser neighbourhoods that they saw soldiers with the American flag on their uniforms, speaking English) . This tweet has an interview video. (They've slapped their label over it but it's from al-Jazeera)
posted by cendawanita at 8:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sana Saeed comments: Israel cannot ‘win’ the narrative war - that’s been made clear, despite the best efforts of US officials & press.
But Israel can bomb and destroy those who are telling us what’s happening in Gaza.
They targeted journalists, they targeted hospitals.
This is the outcome.
Semi-related to the current thread tangent, @Vanessaid: If you don’t actually know anything about decolonial theory, just say that. Jewish dispossession and expulsion, as well as pogroms and the holocaust, are cited across the discipline. But dispossessed people can BECOME settlers. Latin America and Asia are full of examples. Read.
Flagging for something worth tracking: allegations based on eyewitness accounts in Gaza (from those displaced from the al-Nasser neighbourhoods that they saw soldiers with the American flag on their uniforms, speaking English) . This tweet has an interview video. (They've slapped their label over it but it's from al-Jazeera)
posted by cendawanita at 8:01 PM on November 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
interogative mood Regrettably I'm sure you are clearly quite correct. All of the talk about peaceful solutions and discussion of one-state vs two-state and how a place could exist as a Jewish homeland without being a theocracy or denying equality or even maintaining a Jewish majority is, ultimately, not noticeably related to the real world.
You can't work towards better things if you don't know what better things are, so all the talk isn't just a fun mental exercise and I hope people can continue to imagine a possible future that isn't quite so bleak.
But here and now I don't think there's any real hope. Netanyahu and Hamas have won, they differ enormously in long term objectives and motives but in the short term it is apparent they both believe razing Gaza, killing a significant percentage of the Gazan population, and fragmenting Palestinian areas in Gaza so it can be slowly devoured as is happening in the West Bank is beneficial to them. And they've won.
If there is any long term resolution that involves the Palestinian people having a place in Israel, it will have to start from the context of a total victory for people like Weiss and Netanyahu and Hamas. And once Israel is truly the ethnostate envisioned by Weiss and Netanyahu, even Israelis of good will have no reason to try to change things and bring the Palestinian diaspora back home.
posted by sotonohito at 8:05 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can't work towards better things if you don't know what better things are, so all the talk isn't just a fun mental exercise and I hope people can continue to imagine a possible future that isn't quite so bleak.
But here and now I don't think there's any real hope. Netanyahu and Hamas have won, they differ enormously in long term objectives and motives but in the short term it is apparent they both believe razing Gaza, killing a significant percentage of the Gazan population, and fragmenting Palestinian areas in Gaza so it can be slowly devoured as is happening in the West Bank is beneficial to them. And they've won.
If there is any long term resolution that involves the Palestinian people having a place in Israel, it will have to start from the context of a total victory for people like Weiss and Netanyahu and Hamas. And once Israel is truly the ethnostate envisioned by Weiss and Netanyahu, even Israelis of good will have no reason to try to change things and bring the Palestinian diaspora back home.
posted by sotonohito at 8:05 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
This tweet has an interview video. (They've slapped their label over it but it's from al-Jazeera)
fake news. I would like to see the original Al Jazeera story on this but since X reinstated hamas' QNN, ,I'm extremely skeptical. for some reason if there were American forces on the ground they would not be wearing a flag. I like how the interviewer basically put the words American flag into the interviewees mouth.
"In October 2019, QNN was one of more than 40 websites in the West Bank blocked by the Palestinian Authority as part of a crackdown of opposition voices and those critical of PA President Mahmoud Abbas. The move became widely known after Palestinians protested the blocks on social media and in the streets" Tik Tok banned them also. it was quite interesting led there but I don't think it flushes out to anything.
One way this could end is that the Palestinian people evict Hamas and somehow Garner a leadership for themselves that doesn't involve the old terrorist guard or carpetbagger political organization claiming to save one from World oppression.
I won't even start on Israel. they're f****** death grip rhetoric is totally cemented in fact that they will never help the Palestinian people unless somebody tells them to do so and I think that's where we're at.
posted by clavdivs at 9:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
fake news. I would like to see the original Al Jazeera story on this but since X reinstated hamas' QNN, ,I'm extremely skeptical. for some reason if there were American forces on the ground they would not be wearing a flag. I like how the interviewer basically put the words American flag into the interviewees mouth.
"In October 2019, QNN was one of more than 40 websites in the West Bank blocked by the Palestinian Authority as part of a crackdown of opposition voices and those critical of PA President Mahmoud Abbas. The move became widely known after Palestinians protested the blocks on social media and in the streets" Tik Tok banned them also. it was quite interesting led there but I don't think it flushes out to anything.
One way this could end is that the Palestinian people evict Hamas and somehow Garner a leadership for themselves that doesn't involve the old terrorist guard or carpetbagger political organization claiming to save one from World oppression.
I won't even start on Israel. they're f****** death grip rhetoric is totally cemented in fact that they will never help the Palestinian people unless somebody tells them to do so and I think that's where we're at.
posted by clavdivs at 9:00 PM on November 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
The US might have sent a special forces team or two in order to support / carry out hostage search and rescue missions. It wouldn’t be shocked if France and the UK have as well. While Israel does have people trained for these kinds of missions the number of hostages and everything else going in probably means they would need reinforcements.
posted by interogative mood at 9:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 9:27 PM on November 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
A question for those who might know:
Is there ever talk of a Three State Solution?
One imagines circumstances where a separate peace could be made between a Gaza Free State and Israel, and between Israel and West Bankia.
What rules out such an hypothetical?
posted by bartleby at 9:48 PM on November 12, 2023
Is there ever talk of a Three State Solution?
One imagines circumstances where a separate peace could be made between a Gaza Free State and Israel, and between Israel and West Bankia.
What rules out such an hypothetical?
posted by bartleby at 9:48 PM on November 12, 2023
The US might have sent a special forces team or two in order to support / carry out hostage search and rescue missions.
Then how come QNN leaked it, who started leak, the IDF, The, Americans...created the scenerio by flashing of the badge no, no Mon Ami. it's like it if Captain Hastings were in Gaza and befuddled, confusing situation by popping out of the tank and going I say. what if an IDF soldier happened to switch his shoulder patch or it was a stunt. but most importantly you have to think of one aspect of the political realm that would make it unlikely. Biden has said that there will be no troops in Gaza and if they were caught it wouldn't matter if it was 2 or 2000 it's still troops, he's gone against his word, he goes down in the polls and goes against his word I just don't see that thinking you never know. if there would be a qualified United States military tactical Force in small deployment it would probably be from the central intelligence agencies middle East tactical section. but I don't know if I'd risk that seeing as at the satellites can see everything that's going on block by block. 24/7.
the secretly televised horror show. and I secretly ask myself if I watch that would I want to go there and moreover if I were there but I want to watch that.
posted by clavdivs at 10:54 PM on November 12, 2023
Then how come QNN leaked it, who started leak, the IDF, The, Americans...created the scenerio by flashing of the badge no, no Mon Ami. it's like it if Captain Hastings were in Gaza and befuddled, confusing situation by popping out of the tank and going I say. what if an IDF soldier happened to switch his shoulder patch or it was a stunt. but most importantly you have to think of one aspect of the political realm that would make it unlikely. Biden has said that there will be no troops in Gaza and if they were caught it wouldn't matter if it was 2 or 2000 it's still troops, he's gone against his word, he goes down in the polls and goes against his word I just don't see that thinking you never know. if there would be a qualified United States military tactical Force in small deployment it would probably be from the central intelligence agencies middle East tactical section. but I don't know if I'd risk that seeing as at the satellites can see everything that's going on block by block. 24/7.
the secretly televised horror show. and I secretly ask myself if I watch that would I want to go there and moreover if I were there but I want to watch that.
posted by clavdivs at 10:54 PM on November 12, 2023
we've decided that no one is allowed to have sovereignty over any of this land anymore, sorry, i hope all the ladders you have are where you want them to be because no one move anything," it's not like that can happen.
Unfortunately, there's one party in all of this that has secret nuclear weapons and has (however indirectly) already threatened to use them — even though it would invariably and stupidly irradiate its own country in the process, just to spite everyone.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:40 PM on November 12, 2023
Unfortunately, there's one party in all of this that has secret nuclear weapons and has (however indirectly) already threatened to use them — even though it would invariably and stupidly irradiate its own country in the process, just to spite everyone.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 11:40 PM on November 12, 2023
Amnesty International: Damning evidence of war crimes as Israeli attacks wipe out entire families in Gaza
BBC: Gaza casualties: 'Most of the children in my family photo are dead'
OCHA: Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #37
- Bombardments and armed clashes around the Shifa hospital in Gaza city intensified since the afternoon of 11 November. Critical infrastructure, including the oxygen station, water tanks and a well, the cardiovascular facility, and the maternity ward, was damaged,and three nurses killed. While many internally displaced persons (IDPs) and some staff and patients have managed to flee, others are trapped inside, fearing to leave or physically unable to do so.
- At Shifa, two premature babies and ten other patients have died since the power outage that started on 11 November, compounded by the lack of medical consumables. Another 36 babies in incubators as well as kidney dialysis patients are at hightened risk of death. On 12 November, the World Health Organization (WHO) indicated that it had lost communication with its contacts in Shifa.
- The building of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in Gaza city and an UNRWA school in Beit Lahiya, both of which were hosting IDPs, were hit on 11 and 12 November, respectively, resulting in an unclear number of casualties.
posted by cendawanita at 1:55 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
BBC: Gaza casualties: 'Most of the children in my family photo are dead'
OCHA: Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #37
- Bombardments and armed clashes around the Shifa hospital in Gaza city intensified since the afternoon of 11 November. Critical infrastructure, including the oxygen station, water tanks and a well, the cardiovascular facility, and the maternity ward, was damaged,and three nurses killed. While many internally displaced persons (IDPs) and some staff and patients have managed to flee, others are trapped inside, fearing to leave or physically unable to do so.
- At Shifa, two premature babies and ten other patients have died since the power outage that started on 11 November, compounded by the lack of medical consumables. Another 36 babies in incubators as well as kidney dialysis patients are at hightened risk of death. On 12 November, the World Health Organization (WHO) indicated that it had lost communication with its contacts in Shifa.
- The building of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) in Gaza city and an UNRWA school in Beit Lahiya, both of which were hosting IDPs, were hit on 11 and 12 November, respectively, resulting in an unclear number of casualties.
posted by cendawanita at 1:55 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hind Khoudary: I Joined Gaza’s Trail of Tears And Displacement - After weeks of reporting on Israel’s war from Gaza City, I was one of thousands of Palestinians who fled south on Friday.
posted by cendawanita at 3:56 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 3:56 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The US might have sent a special forces team or two in order to support / carry out hostage search and rescue missions. It wouldn’t be shocked if France and the UK have as well. While Israel does have people trained for these kinds of missions the number of hostages and everything else going in probably means they would need reinforcements.
The US has some special forces (and regular military) advisers in Israel currently, but nothing acknowledged as fighting forces within the country (though I'd be surprised if at least a limited team of special forces hadn't been moved in covertly yet). But in addition to whatever quick reaction forces are stationed on the carrier groups, they've publicly moved special forces to Cyprus. (This is why five were killed yesterday in a helicopter refueling accident there.) In addition to the general deterrent threat of having those forces stationed in the region, there have been a few quotes from administration officials about having them ready in case of rescuing US hostages.
So it's not at all impossible that there would be a few US special forces embedded with the IDF in Gaza particularly if they thought they were getting close to hostages, but it's clearly fake news that any of the regular fighting forces there are American. Right now the US Central Command is telegraphing all of its force projection loud and clear on Twitter/X (like with photos of a nuclear sub showing up, and strategic bombers doing practice flights).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:46 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The US has some special forces (and regular military) advisers in Israel currently, but nothing acknowledged as fighting forces within the country (though I'd be surprised if at least a limited team of special forces hadn't been moved in covertly yet). But in addition to whatever quick reaction forces are stationed on the carrier groups, they've publicly moved special forces to Cyprus. (This is why five were killed yesterday in a helicopter refueling accident there.) In addition to the general deterrent threat of having those forces stationed in the region, there have been a few quotes from administration officials about having them ready in case of rescuing US hostages.
So it's not at all impossible that there would be a few US special forces embedded with the IDF in Gaza particularly if they thought they were getting close to hostages, but it's clearly fake news that any of the regular fighting forces there are American. Right now the US Central Command is telegraphing all of its force projection loud and clear on Twitter/X (like with photos of a nuclear sub showing up, and strategic bombers doing practice flights).
posted by Dip Flash at 6:46 AM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
Right, here is a report (link to The Hill) back in mid-Oct of a "Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU), a special forces unit capable of carrying out a wide range of missions" being sent to Israel. This NYTimes article from Oct 31 claims "several dozen commandos" have been dispatched so far - additionally, it reports several other countries have done the same - so I agree with clavdis that the fact that it's the interviewer and not the interviewee who first says "American flag" is noteworthy. In any case, all the sources reporting this story out so far are, as noted, unreliable - which isn't to say it's all just smoke, but very much a wait-and-see situation.
Speaking of conspiracies....in case anyone didn't notice, Senator Marsha Blackburn tweeted out yesterday "Rashida Tlaib has alleged ties to Hamas. Based on these allegations, it’s sadly not surprising she’s calling for a genocide against the Jewish people." This isn't the first time she's baselessly attacked Tlaib, but it's maybe the most brazen - incredibly dangerous. Back in mid-Oct Capital Police briefed several progressive members of Congress that there had been an uptick of threats against them, it's disappointing (to put it mildly) that Biden, Schumer, and Jeffries are not doing more to call out this rhetoric from people like Blackburn - that 22 Democrats joined in censuring her was bad enough, but that nobody in leadership is drawing attention to the real danger she's in seems worse.
posted by coffeecat at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
Speaking of conspiracies....in case anyone didn't notice, Senator Marsha Blackburn tweeted out yesterday "Rashida Tlaib has alleged ties to Hamas. Based on these allegations, it’s sadly not surprising she’s calling for a genocide against the Jewish people." This isn't the first time she's baselessly attacked Tlaib, but it's maybe the most brazen - incredibly dangerous. Back in mid-Oct Capital Police briefed several progressive members of Congress that there had been an uptick of threats against them, it's disappointing (to put it mildly) that Biden, Schumer, and Jeffries are not doing more to call out this rhetoric from people like Blackburn - that 22 Democrats joined in censuring her was bad enough, but that nobody in leadership is drawing attention to the real danger she's in seems worse.
posted by coffeecat at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2023 [9 favorites]
The New Leaders of the Left (Hamilton Nolan on H.Res. 786 and how Palestine is the end of the Bernie Era, I don't necessarily cosign this thesis but I think it's interesting.)
posted by box at 7:40 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 7:40 AM on November 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
Deborah Feldman: Germany is a good place to be Jewish. Unless, like me, you’re a Jew who criticises Israel (Guardian)
When I observed how Palestinians, and Muslims in general, in Germany were being held collectively liable for the Hamas attacks, I signed an open letter along with more than 100 Jewish academics, writers, artists and thinkers, in which we asked German politicians not to remove the last remaining safe spaces for people to express their grief and despair. There was immediate backlash from the official German Jewish community. On 1 November, just as I was about to appear on a TV talkshow with the vice-chancellor, Robert Habeck, I was sent a screenshot of a post in which the same German Jewish journalist who attacked my book publicly discussed fantasies about me being held hostage in Gaza. It stopped my heart cold.
Suddenly, everything was clear to me. The same people who had been demanding that every Muslim in Germany condemn the Hamas attacks in order to receive permission to say anything else at all were fine with civilian deaths as long as the victims were people with opposing views. The German government’s unconditional support for Israel doesn’t only prevent it from condemning the deaths of civilians in Gaza – it also allows it to ignore the way dissenting Jews in Germany are being thrown under the same bus as they are in Israel.
The people who were horrifically murdered and defiled on 7 October belonged to the left-leaning, secular segment of Israeli society; many of them were activists for peaceful coexistence. Their military protection was forfeited for the sake of radical settlers in the West Bank, many of whom are militant fundamentalists. For many liberal Israelis, the state’s promise of security for all Jews has now been exposed as selective and conditional. Similarly in Germany, the protection of Jews has been interpreted selectively as to apply solely to those loyal to the rightwing nationalist government of Israel.
In Israel, the hostages held by Hamas are seen by many as already gone, a necessary sacrifice relevant only insofar as they can be used to justify the violent war that the religious right has been waiting for. For Israeli nationalists, 7 October was their own personal Day X, the beginning of the fulfilment of the eschatological biblical prophecy of Gog and Magog, the arrival of a war to end all wars, and end all foreign peoples. Many of the families of the victims of 7 October, who have called for an end to this cycle of horror and hate and violence, who have begged the Israeli government not to seek revenge in their name, are not heard in Israel. And since Germany sees itself as unconditionally allied with Israel as a result of the Holocaust, those with power and influence in its society seek to establish similar conditions for its public discourse at home.
Some of the hostages held by Hamas have German citizenship, so when I asked a politician from Germany’s governing coalition what the government’s position was on those people, I was shocked when his response, in private, was: Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen, which translates to: well, those aren’t pure Germans. He didn’t choose from a host of perfectly acceptable terms to refer to Germans with dual citizenship, he didn’t even use adjectives such as richtige or echte to refer to them not being full or proper Germans – instead, he used the old Nazi term to differentiate between Aryans and non-Aryans.
Scoop: Internal State Dept. memo blasts Biden, U.S. policy on Israel-Hamas war (Adios)
An internal State Department dissent memo accuses President Biden of "spreading misinformation" on the Israel-Hamas war and alleges that Israel is committing "war crimes" in Gaza, according to a copy of the memo obtained by Axios.
Why it matters: The scathing five-page memo — organized by a junior diplomat who has suggested on social media that Biden's support of Israel has made him "complicit in genocide" in Gaza — offers a rare look at the raw divisions within the Biden administration over the Israel-Hamas war.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
When I observed how Palestinians, and Muslims in general, in Germany were being held collectively liable for the Hamas attacks, I signed an open letter along with more than 100 Jewish academics, writers, artists and thinkers, in which we asked German politicians not to remove the last remaining safe spaces for people to express their grief and despair. There was immediate backlash from the official German Jewish community. On 1 November, just as I was about to appear on a TV talkshow with the vice-chancellor, Robert Habeck, I was sent a screenshot of a post in which the same German Jewish journalist who attacked my book publicly discussed fantasies about me being held hostage in Gaza. It stopped my heart cold.
Suddenly, everything was clear to me. The same people who had been demanding that every Muslim in Germany condemn the Hamas attacks in order to receive permission to say anything else at all were fine with civilian deaths as long as the victims were people with opposing views. The German government’s unconditional support for Israel doesn’t only prevent it from condemning the deaths of civilians in Gaza – it also allows it to ignore the way dissenting Jews in Germany are being thrown under the same bus as they are in Israel.
The people who were horrifically murdered and defiled on 7 October belonged to the left-leaning, secular segment of Israeli society; many of them were activists for peaceful coexistence. Their military protection was forfeited for the sake of radical settlers in the West Bank, many of whom are militant fundamentalists. For many liberal Israelis, the state’s promise of security for all Jews has now been exposed as selective and conditional. Similarly in Germany, the protection of Jews has been interpreted selectively as to apply solely to those loyal to the rightwing nationalist government of Israel.
In Israel, the hostages held by Hamas are seen by many as already gone, a necessary sacrifice relevant only insofar as they can be used to justify the violent war that the religious right has been waiting for. For Israeli nationalists, 7 October was their own personal Day X, the beginning of the fulfilment of the eschatological biblical prophecy of Gog and Magog, the arrival of a war to end all wars, and end all foreign peoples. Many of the families of the victims of 7 October, who have called for an end to this cycle of horror and hate and violence, who have begged the Israeli government not to seek revenge in their name, are not heard in Israel. And since Germany sees itself as unconditionally allied with Israel as a result of the Holocaust, those with power and influence in its society seek to establish similar conditions for its public discourse at home.
Some of the hostages held by Hamas have German citizenship, so when I asked a politician from Germany’s governing coalition what the government’s position was on those people, I was shocked when his response, in private, was: Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen, which translates to: well, those aren’t pure Germans. He didn’t choose from a host of perfectly acceptable terms to refer to Germans with dual citizenship, he didn’t even use adjectives such as richtige or echte to refer to them not being full or proper Germans – instead, he used the old Nazi term to differentiate between Aryans and non-Aryans.
Scoop: Internal State Dept. memo blasts Biden, U.S. policy on Israel-Hamas war (Adios)
An internal State Department dissent memo accuses President Biden of "spreading misinformation" on the Israel-Hamas war and alleges that Israel is committing "war crimes" in Gaza, according to a copy of the memo obtained by Axios.
Why it matters: The scathing five-page memo — organized by a junior diplomat who has suggested on social media that Biden's support of Israel has made him "complicit in genocide" in Gaza — offers a rare look at the raw divisions within the Biden administration over the Israel-Hamas war.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [15 favorites]
Some of the hostages held by Hamas have German citizenship, so when I asked a politician from Germany’s governing coalition what the government’s position was on those people, I was shocked when his response, in private, was: Das sind doch keine reinen Deutschen, which translates to: well, those aren’t pure Germans. He didn’t choose from a host of perfectly acceptable terms to refer to Germans with dual citizenship, he didn’t even use adjectives such as richtige or echte to refer to them not being full or proper Germans – instead, he used the old Nazi term to differentiate between Aryans and non-Aryans
You can see the same sort of distinction about who is "really" a citizen in how comparatively relaxed countries have been about getting their citizens out of Gaza. Most of the people being able to leave are hyphenated citizens (Palestinian-German, Palestinian-Canadian). If instead there were 16 tourbus loads of native-born US church tourists from Kansas, you'd see a lot more urgency in those negotiations.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
You can see the same sort of distinction about who is "really" a citizen in how comparatively relaxed countries have been about getting their citizens out of Gaza. Most of the people being able to leave are hyphenated citizens (Palestinian-German, Palestinian-Canadian). If instead there were 16 tourbus loads of native-born US church tourists from Kansas, you'd see a lot more urgency in those negotiations.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [5 favorites]
Readers in the UK should avert their eyes from the rest of this comment - the government says this is not for you.
UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza
posted by thatwhichfalls at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza
posted by thatwhichfalls at 11:01 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Israeli Foreign Minister Eli Cohen seems to acknowledge that Israel is seeing a rapid decline in international support for its war against Hamas. He says Israel has only 2-3 weeks left to achieve its goals in Gaza before international pressure will mount and Israel will face a loss of diplomatic relationships with a large number of countries. Of course he also rejects that there is any clock and they will fight on to victory, etc.
Cohen is a center right politician who is currently a member of the Likud party. During the Likud breakup following the death of Ariel Sharon he was part of the moderate faction that broke into Kadima and later into Kulanu.
There are many possible ways to evaluate his comments. It could just be diplomatic patter with no meaning. It might be a public response to the private concerns raised by the US and others about civilians and the need to wrap this thing up. It might be to lay the ground work for some future Likud leadership contest when Netanyahu is kicked out. It might be just some blunt truth telling to the Israeli public that the global reaction is going to have consequences. It might also be setting the groundwork for a domestic political campaign to blame outsiders for any failings of the war in Gaza. It could even be all of the things or something else entirely.
posted by interogative mood at 11:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
Cohen is a center right politician who is currently a member of the Likud party. During the Likud breakup following the death of Ariel Sharon he was part of the moderate faction that broke into Kadima and later into Kulanu.
There are many possible ways to evaluate his comments. It could just be diplomatic patter with no meaning. It might be a public response to the private concerns raised by the US and others about civilians and the need to wrap this thing up. It might be to lay the ground work for some future Likud leadership contest when Netanyahu is kicked out. It might be just some blunt truth telling to the Israeli public that the global reaction is going to have consequences. It might also be setting the groundwork for a domestic political campaign to blame outsiders for any failings of the war in Gaza. It could even be all of the things or something else entirely.
posted by interogative mood at 11:10 AM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
From NPR: We were interviewing a Palestinian farmer. Then the drone and soldiers appeared.
posted by bcd at 12:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by bcd at 12:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [12 favorites]
Readers in the UK should avert their eyes from the rest of this comment - the government says this is not for you.
UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza
This is nitpicking since I'm happy to believe some SAS forces are actually within Israel already, but buried about halfway through that article, it says that the actual article that led to the issuance of that censoring notice was saying that the SAS was pre-positioned in Cyprus, ready to assist if needed in hostage rescues, versus anyone reporting the SAS is involved in Gaza. So the title is misleading, but the article includes plenty of excellent adjectives like in this sentence: "The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders. "
It goes on to say that the SAS aren't actually there to rescue hostages, but rather to assist in destroying Hamas; the reader can make their own assessment of that aspect.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
UK issues D-Notices to suppress reports of SAS special forces operations in Gaza
This is nitpicking since I'm happy to believe some SAS forces are actually within Israel already, but buried about halfway through that article, it says that the actual article that led to the issuance of that censoring notice was saying that the SAS was pre-positioned in Cyprus, ready to assist if needed in hostage rescues, versus anyone reporting the SAS is involved in Gaza. So the title is misleading, but the article includes plenty of excellent adjectives like in this sentence: "The slavish collusion of the mainstream media ensures that such notices function as gag orders. "
It goes on to say that the SAS aren't actually there to rescue hostages, but rather to assist in destroying Hamas; the reader can make their own assessment of that aspect.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:55 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
We say we don't want to leave without him. "Can one of our Israeli friends stay here?" we ask. The soldiers refuse, and a gun is raised. It points straight at us – and we begin to back away. "Move on," we're told.
As with Netanyahu sending military on horseback to kettle and beat up protesters angry at him changing the judiciary, just to keep from being put in prison, Israelis seem to be finding their own military's weapons pointed back at them, as much as at Palestinian civilians. The country seems less of a democracy and more of a banana republic ruled by fiat, by the day.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:32 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
As with Netanyahu sending military on horseback to kettle and beat up protesters angry at him changing the judiciary, just to keep from being put in prison, Israelis seem to be finding their own military's weapons pointed back at them, as much as at Palestinian civilians. The country seems less of a democracy and more of a banana republic ruled by fiat, by the day.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:32 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
The IDF claims to have captured a Hamas command bunker adjacent to Rantisi Hospital with a tunnel that connected to the Hospital. They posted a video tour on their twitter.
posted by interogative mood at 7:11 PM on November 13, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 7:11 PM on November 13, 2023
very nice of hamas to leave a calendar on the wall that says “terror shifts for the terrorism” on the wall (eyes rolling so hard that i give myself a brain injury)
posted by dis_integration at 7:53 PM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 7:53 PM on November 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
The country seems less of a democracy and more of a banana republic ruled by fiat, by the day.
More like "fascist police state", considering the number of people getting arrested for innocuous social media posts.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:56 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
More like "fascist police state", considering the number of people getting arrested for innocuous social media posts.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:56 PM on November 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
a calendar on the wall that says “terror shifts for the terrorism” on the wall
If that's a terror calendar then so is the Happy Days theme song because it's just the days of the week. My Arabic isn't strong enough for the title on the page but apparently it's a cleaning schedule?
posted by cendawanita at 8:43 PM on November 13, 2023
If that's a terror calendar then so is the Happy Days theme song because it's just the days of the week. My Arabic isn't strong enough for the title on the page but apparently it's a cleaning schedule?
posted by cendawanita at 8:43 PM on November 13, 2023
Oh wait I'm reading and confirming it's just the date of 7/10 and "battle of Al-Aqsa flood" - apparently tracking the days manually with all the power cuts.
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 8:46 PM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yeah I zoomed in on the calendar I’m pretty sure the top line is معركة طوفان الاقصى 2023/10/7
Translation: Battle/Operation of Al Aqsa Flood October 7, 2023.
posted by interogative mood at 9:09 PM on November 13, 2023
Translation: Battle/Operation of Al Aqsa Flood October 7, 2023.
posted by interogative mood at 9:09 PM on November 13, 2023
Thread with citations in the replies:
Just this week, official Israeli government accounts have tweeted, then deleted, the following:
- Video of a fake nurse claiming that Hamas took over the Al-Shifa hospital
- False claim that “AP, CNN, NY Times, and Reuters had journalists embedded with Hamas terrorists on October 7th massacre”
- Video with fake captions claiming a crying elderly Gaza woman blames Hamas for the siege
- Graphic asserting Israeli ownership of all the occupied territories, including Syria’s Golan Heights
- False claim that Israel is “facilitating the supply of humanitarian aid to Gazan civilians.”
- Assertion that hospitals and ambulances constitute "legitimate military targets."
Casey Newton: How banning one Palestinian slogan roiled Etsy -
The company secretly banned the phrase “from the river to the sea” on sellers’ wares. Some employees aren’t happy
In Germany: Poet Ranjit Hoskote Resigns from Documenta 16 Selection Committee: ‘I Have Been Subjected to a Kangaroo Court’
posted by cendawanita at 9:29 PM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
Just this week, official Israeli government accounts have tweeted, then deleted, the following:
- Video of a fake nurse claiming that Hamas took over the Al-Shifa hospital
- False claim that “AP, CNN, NY Times, and Reuters had journalists embedded with Hamas terrorists on October 7th massacre”
- Video with fake captions claiming a crying elderly Gaza woman blames Hamas for the siege
- Graphic asserting Israeli ownership of all the occupied territories, including Syria’s Golan Heights
- False claim that Israel is “facilitating the supply of humanitarian aid to Gazan civilians.”
- Assertion that hospitals and ambulances constitute "legitimate military targets."
Casey Newton: How banning one Palestinian slogan roiled Etsy -
The company secretly banned the phrase “from the river to the sea” on sellers’ wares. Some employees aren’t happy
In Germany: Poet Ranjit Hoskote Resigns from Documenta 16 Selection Committee: ‘I Have Been Subjected to a Kangaroo Court’
posted by cendawanita at 9:29 PM on November 13, 2023 [11 favorites]
AP live updates + tweet (with video): President Biden on Monday said Gaza’s largest hospital “must be protected,” and called for “less intrusive action” by Israeli forces. Fighting between Israeli forces and Palestinian militants has encircled the medical facility, Shifa Hospital, prompting thousands to flee.
That might be one of the signs of the 1-2 weeks of diplomatic runway that Israel is seeing.
posted by cendawanita at 10:08 PM on November 13, 2023
That might be one of the signs of the 1-2 weeks of diplomatic runway that Israel is seeing.
posted by cendawanita at 10:08 PM on November 13, 2023
Also:
Barak Ravid - Scoop: Austin warned Gallant about Israeli military actions in Lebanon
U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin expressed concern to his Israeli counterpart Yoav Gallant in a call on Saturday about Israel's role in escalating tensions along the border between Israel and Lebanon, according to three Israeli and U.S. sources briefed on the call.
Why it matters: Austin's message to Gallant reflected growing anxiety in the White House that Israeli military action in Lebanon is exacerbating tensions along the border, which could lead to a regional war.
posted by cendawanita at 10:10 PM on November 13, 2023
Barak Ravid - Scoop: Austin warned Gallant about Israeli military actions in Lebanon
U.S. Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin expressed concern to his Israeli counterpart Yoav Gallant in a call on Saturday about Israel's role in escalating tensions along the border between Israel and Lebanon, according to three Israeli and U.S. sources briefed on the call.
Why it matters: Austin's message to Gallant reflected growing anxiety in the White House that Israeli military action in Lebanon is exacerbating tensions along the border, which could lead to a regional war.
posted by cendawanita at 10:10 PM on November 13, 2023
David Ignatius: Israel and Hamas close in on a deal to free dozens of hostages
Israel and Hamas are close to a hostage deal that would free most of the Israeli women and children who were kidnapped Oct. 7, according to a high-ranking Israeli official. The agreement could be announced within days if final details are resolved, he said...posted by BungaDunga at 10:36 PM on November 13, 2023
The tentative agreement calls for Israeli women and children to be released in groups, simultaneously with Palestinian women and young people held in Israeli prisons.
Israel wants the release of all 100 women and children taken from Israel, but the initial number is likely to be smaller. Hamas has indicated it is ready to release 70 women and children... The number of Palestinian women and young people who might be released is unclear, but an Arab official told me last week that there were at least 120 in prison.
A temporary cease-fire of perhaps five days would accompany the exchange of hostages and prisoners...
The tentative agreement calls for Israeli women and children to be released in groups, simultaneously with Palestinian women and young people held in Israeli prisons.
Curious about the use of the phrase "young people" here instead of "children."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:20 AM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Curious about the use of the phrase "young people" here instead of "children."
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 5:20 AM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Those comparisons between pan-Germanism and Zionism... I'm just trying to imagine Israel setting out to conquer all the places with significant Jewish minorities.
If news organizations knew about the coming 10/7 attack, wouldn't they give in to the tempatation to make the attack public? Make some effort to protect the photographers? This is nonsense.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:06 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
If news organizations knew about the coming 10/7 attack, wouldn't they give in to the tempatation to make the attack public? Make some effort to protect the photographers? This is nonsense.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:06 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
TikTok has posted a lengthy explanation of how content on their platform works, as it affects coverage of the Israel-Hamas war, noting that global support for Palestine among young people had been trending upward prior to the creation of TikTok itself:
It’s critical to understand that hashtags on the platform are created and added to videos by content creators, not TikTok. Millions of people in regions such as the Middle East and South East Asia account for a significant proportion of views on hashtags. Therefore, there’s more content with #freepalestine and #standwithpalestine and more overall views. It is easy to cherry pick hashtags to support a false narrative about the platform.
In addition, the number of videos associated with a hashtag, alone, do not provide sufficient context. For example, the hashtag #standwithIsrael may be associated with fewer videos than #freePalestine, but it has 68% more views per video in the US, which means more people are seeing the content. And, some hashtags are newer (e.g. #standwithIsrael) while others are more established (e.g. #freePalestine)–the vast majority (9 in 10) of videos tagged #standwithIsrael were posted in the last 30 days in the US. A difference in views and posts is expected.
posted by toastyk at 7:44 AM on November 14, 2023
It’s critical to understand that hashtags on the platform are created and added to videos by content creators, not TikTok. Millions of people in regions such as the Middle East and South East Asia account for a significant proportion of views on hashtags. Therefore, there’s more content with #freepalestine and #standwithpalestine and more overall views. It is easy to cherry pick hashtags to support a false narrative about the platform.
In addition, the number of videos associated with a hashtag, alone, do not provide sufficient context. For example, the hashtag #standwithIsrael may be associated with fewer videos than #freePalestine, but it has 68% more views per video in the US, which means more people are seeing the content. And, some hashtags are newer (e.g. #standwithIsrael) while others are more established (e.g. #freePalestine)–the vast majority (9 in 10) of videos tagged #standwithIsrael were posted in the last 30 days in the US. A difference in views and posts is expected.
posted by toastyk at 7:44 AM on November 14, 2023
“The Problem With ‘Just Raising Questions’ About War Reporting,” Parker Molloy, The Present Age, 13 November 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 8:04 AM on November 14, 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 8:04 AM on November 14, 2023
Meanwhile in US politics:
'Democratic Party leaders @SenSchumer and @RepJeffries will be sharing a stage at today's "March for Israel" rally with far-right, extremist pastor John Hagee.
John McCain rejected Hagee's endorsement in 2008 for the pastor's comments saying God sent Hitler to help Jews get to Israel.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:17 AM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
'Democratic Party leaders @SenSchumer and @RepJeffries will be sharing a stage at today's "March for Israel" rally with far-right, extremist pastor John Hagee.
John McCain rejected Hagee's endorsement in 2008 for the pastor's comments saying God sent Hitler to help Jews get to Israel.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:17 AM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
MSF:
"This morning in #Gaza, bullets were fired into one of three MSF premises located near Al-Shifa hospital and sheltering MSF staff and their families – over 100 people, including 65 children, who ran out of food last night.
We’ve been trying to evacuate them for the past three days. MSF is asking the Israeli army and Hamas for a safe passage for them to leave the epicentre of intense fighting currently ongoing in Gaza city.
Thousands of civilians, medical staff and patients are currently trapped in hospitals and other locations under fire in Gaza city; they must be protected and afforded safe passage if they wish to leave. Above that, there must be a total and immediate ceasefire."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:20 AM on November 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
"This morning in #Gaza, bullets were fired into one of three MSF premises located near Al-Shifa hospital and sheltering MSF staff and their families – over 100 people, including 65 children, who ran out of food last night.
We’ve been trying to evacuate them for the past three days. MSF is asking the Israeli army and Hamas for a safe passage for them to leave the epicentre of intense fighting currently ongoing in Gaza city.
Thousands of civilians, medical staff and patients are currently trapped in hospitals and other locations under fire in Gaza city; they must be protected and afforded safe passage if they wish to leave. Above that, there must be a total and immediate ceasefire."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:20 AM on November 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'd suggest that any agressively expansionist nationalist movement is going to have some similarities, but will also usually be different enough that it's not especially useful to say that one is the same as another.
Putin is pushing a sort of pan-Russian expansionist policy, Islam has always had people pushing a sort of pan-Muslim principle that any place where Muslims have ever lived is eternally Muslim. Germany had pan-Germanism. The Baathist party was sort of born from a pan-Arab movement. Kurdish liberation movements are seeking to establish Kurdistan in places with Kurdish populations.
All have certain similarieties but each are distinct enough and created under sufficiently different pressures and ideology that trying to say they're the same, or even especially closely related is probably not going to be all that useful.
While we can't exactly consider them in a total vacuum it's worthwhile to keep in mind that the differences are going to be important.
With Israel the entire tangled mess of competing religious claims on the area and especially the city of Jerusalem are going to add a factor that's both important and not present in most other similar movements.
When people start talking religion and God it means everyone involved is going to be MUCH more emotionally invested in the situation than they would be if they had purely secular motives and it's already a deeply emotionally involving situation.
So yeah, probably not all that useful to try to say "the Zionist movement is the same as Pan-Germanism".
posted by sotonohito at 8:35 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Putin is pushing a sort of pan-Russian expansionist policy, Islam has always had people pushing a sort of pan-Muslim principle that any place where Muslims have ever lived is eternally Muslim. Germany had pan-Germanism. The Baathist party was sort of born from a pan-Arab movement. Kurdish liberation movements are seeking to establish Kurdistan in places with Kurdish populations.
All have certain similarieties but each are distinct enough and created under sufficiently different pressures and ideology that trying to say they're the same, or even especially closely related is probably not going to be all that useful.
While we can't exactly consider them in a total vacuum it's worthwhile to keep in mind that the differences are going to be important.
With Israel the entire tangled mess of competing religious claims on the area and especially the city of Jerusalem are going to add a factor that's both important and not present in most other similar movements.
When people start talking religion and God it means everyone involved is going to be MUCH more emotionally invested in the situation than they would be if they had purely secular motives and it's already a deeply emotionally involving situation.
So yeah, probably not all that useful to try to say "the Zionist movement is the same as Pan-Germanism".
posted by sotonohito at 8:35 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
JFC, Schumer and Jefferies are really pandering to the worst possible elements.
Note that John Hagee is a megachurch pastor from my town of San Antonio and he's previously not only stated that Hitler was sent by God to get Jews into Israel, but also predicting the end of the world based on "four bood moons", said that hurricane Katrina happened because God was punihsing America for letting gay people exist, says any Christian who isn't opposed to LGBT rights is a "counterfit Christian", tweeted that "Abortion is one of Satan's most sinister machinations: it strikes against the very heart and fiber of what a family is about", and is in general an awful theocratic person who lives a lavish lifestyle funded by the people he fleeces.
The fact that the two highest ranking Democrats in the nation are getting up on stage with someone so vile as Hagee is horrifying and evidence that they should resign immediately so people who aren't so horrible can take their place. Schumer was always a cowardly little pissant and a miserable failure as Senate Majority Leader, but this is fucking inexcusable. I used to think Jefferies had at least some sense, but clearly I was wrong.
John. Fucking. Hagee.
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on November 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
Note that John Hagee is a megachurch pastor from my town of San Antonio and he's previously not only stated that Hitler was sent by God to get Jews into Israel, but also predicting the end of the world based on "four bood moons", said that hurricane Katrina happened because God was punihsing America for letting gay people exist, says any Christian who isn't opposed to LGBT rights is a "counterfit Christian", tweeted that "Abortion is one of Satan's most sinister machinations: it strikes against the very heart and fiber of what a family is about", and is in general an awful theocratic person who lives a lavish lifestyle funded by the people he fleeces.
The fact that the two highest ranking Democrats in the nation are getting up on stage with someone so vile as Hagee is horrifying and evidence that they should resign immediately so people who aren't so horrible can take their place. Schumer was always a cowardly little pissant and a miserable failure as Senate Majority Leader, but this is fucking inexcusable. I used to think Jefferies had at least some sense, but clearly I was wrong.
John. Fucking. Hagee.
posted by sotonohito at 8:51 AM on November 14, 2023 [20 favorites]
Good grief, reading on Hagee's wikipedia page:
"Hagee has claimed that Adolf Hitler was born from a lineage of "accursed, genocidally murderous [word Metafilter won't allow me to quote but rhymes with half-bleed] Jews". Citing material from Jewish tradition, he claimed that the persecution of Jews throughout history, implicitly including the Holocaust, was due to the Jewish people's disobedience of God.
In 2008, Hagee claimed that the anti-Christ will be "a homosexual" and "partially Jewish, as was Adolf Hitler" and he also claimed that a reference in Jeremiah 16:16 to "fishers" and "hunters" was symbolic of positive motivation (Herzl/Zionism) and negative motivation (Hitler/Nazism) respectively, both men were sent by God for the purpose of having Jews return to Israel, and he suggested that the Holocaust was willed by God because most Jews "ignored" Herzl.
Hagee has made demonizing comments about Islam. Hagee has claimed that "Islam not only condones violence; it commands it". He has also claimed that a contrast exists between Islam's "violent nature" and Christianity's "loving nature" and that the Quran teaches, and Muslims have a mandate, to kill Jews and Christians."
Lovely - a bigot on multiple levels. This is the last sort of figure anyone in political power (or any sort of authority) should be giving legitimacy to right now. I know I shouldn't be shocked, but I'm pretty appalled that any Democrats are aligning with Hagee, nonetheless leadership. I guess I have another couple of politicians to contact today.
posted by coffeecat at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
"Hagee has claimed that Adolf Hitler was born from a lineage of "accursed, genocidally murderous [word Metafilter won't allow me to quote but rhymes with half-bleed] Jews". Citing material from Jewish tradition, he claimed that the persecution of Jews throughout history, implicitly including the Holocaust, was due to the Jewish people's disobedience of God.
In 2008, Hagee claimed that the anti-Christ will be "a homosexual" and "partially Jewish, as was Adolf Hitler" and he also claimed that a reference in Jeremiah 16:16 to "fishers" and "hunters" was symbolic of positive motivation (Herzl/Zionism) and negative motivation (Hitler/Nazism) respectively, both men were sent by God for the purpose of having Jews return to Israel, and he suggested that the Holocaust was willed by God because most Jews "ignored" Herzl.
Hagee has made demonizing comments about Islam. Hagee has claimed that "Islam not only condones violence; it commands it". He has also claimed that a contrast exists between Islam's "violent nature" and Christianity's "loving nature" and that the Quran teaches, and Muslims have a mandate, to kill Jews and Christians."
Lovely - a bigot on multiple levels. This is the last sort of figure anyone in political power (or any sort of authority) should be giving legitimacy to right now. I know I shouldn't be shocked, but I'm pretty appalled that any Democrats are aligning with Hagee, nonetheless leadership. I guess I have another couple of politicians to contact today.
posted by coffeecat at 9:08 AM on November 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
'A San Antonio Megachurch Plays an Outsized Role in Supporting Israel's War Efforts' (Texas Monthly, 11/8/23)
posted by box at 9:43 AM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 9:43 AM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
If Gaza was in your city, how much would be destroyed? - In the following series of maps, Al Jazeera shows what it would look like if the Gaza Strip were to be placed in some of the world’s most well-known cities and where entirely destroyed areas would be. Satellite image analysis of damage covers the period from October 7 to November 5.
Cities covered: Johannesburg, Lagos, Nairobi, Buenos Aires, Havana, Los Angeles, Miami, NYC, Rio de Janeiro, Toronto, Islamabad, New Delhi, Beijing, KL, Seoul, Sydney, Tokyo, Berlin, Kyiv, London, Paris, Rome, Casablanca, Doha, Dubai, Istanbul, and Riyadh.
posted by cendawanita at 9:58 AM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Cities covered: Johannesburg, Lagos, Nairobi, Buenos Aires, Havana, Los Angeles, Miami, NYC, Rio de Janeiro, Toronto, Islamabad, New Delhi, Beijing, KL, Seoul, Sydney, Tokyo, Berlin, Kyiv, London, Paris, Rome, Casablanca, Doha, Dubai, Istanbul, and Riyadh.
posted by cendawanita at 9:58 AM on November 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
DC "March for Israel" attendees break out into "No Ceasefire!" chant
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:40 AM on November 14, 2023
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:40 AM on November 14, 2023
Did anyone see Hagee speak? I didn't see him in, but I wasn't paying close attention. I went back through the livestream but couldn't find him. The organizers didn't put out an official speakers list on their website. Forward indicated that some Progressive groups were upset that he had been given a speaking slot, as they had accepted their invitations based on assurances he wasn't going to be speaking.
posted by interogative mood at 11:53 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:53 AM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Here's a pic of Hagee speaking.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:28 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:28 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
The most powerful antisemite in America, Christian Zionist leader Pastor John Hagee, channels his triumphalist, war-hungry imperial theology before a massive crowd of Jews whom he views as cannon fodder for the End Times. Truly chilling moment
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:44 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:44 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
What was that, box? Post seems unavailable to people without Bluesky.
posted by kensington314 at 1:13 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 1:13 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Pictures of rally attendees holding signs reading 'There is no proportional response to Hamas,' 'Many Gazan 'civilians' are Hamas in training,' 'From the sea to the river Israel is forever,' and 'Let Israel finish the job.'
Also a screenshot of a tweet describing Van Jones saying 'I'm a peace guy. I pray for peace. No more rockets from Gaza, and no more bombs falling down on the people of Gaza.' It describes the crowd breaking out in a chant of 'No ceasefire' shortly after.
(This is all pretty different from the NYT's coverage of the same event.)
posted by box at 1:21 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also a screenshot of a tweet describing Van Jones saying 'I'm a peace guy. I pray for peace. No more rockets from Gaza, and no more bombs falling down on the people of Gaza.' It describes the crowd breaking out in a chant of 'No ceasefire' shortly after.
(This is all pretty different from the NYT's coverage of the same event.)
posted by box at 1:21 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is all pretty different from the NYT's coverage of the same event.
Should be obvious to anyone paying attention at this point that the NYT's reporting is frequently fundamentally dishonest.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:23 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Should be obvious to anyone paying attention at this point that the NYT's reporting is frequently fundamentally dishonest.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:23 PM on November 14, 2023 [8 favorites]
Does anyone have any sense who the rally attendees are? Is this primarily right wing Jews? Is it Christian fundamentalists? Given it’s size and the Christian right’s penchant for atttending big rallies against Muslims without any nuance, my impression that’s it’s the latter.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:04 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:04 PM on November 14, 2023
The Atlantic:
"The Biden administration is correct not to seek a full cease-fire at this moment, which would give Hamas a chance to re-arm and perpetuate the cycle of violence," @HillaryClinton writes.
Ben Riley-Smith, The Daily Telegraph:
Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow
Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed
Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”
When right-wing rabble scream about the Uniparty, most of the time they're overreacting badly. But only most.
posted by delfin at 2:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
"The Biden administration is correct not to seek a full cease-fire at this moment, which would give Hamas a chance to re-arm and perpetuate the cycle of violence," @HillaryClinton writes.
Ben Riley-Smith, The Daily Telegraph:
Keir Starmer is preparing to sack any Labour shadow minister who backs the ceasefire amendment tomorrow
Leadership thinks 10+ sackings may be needed
Labour source: “Support for this motion is not compatible with serving on the front bench”
When right-wing rabble scream about the Uniparty, most of the time they're overreacting badly. But only most.
posted by delfin at 2:57 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
@HillaryClinton writes
Iraq war cheerleader says what now?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:06 PM on November 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Iraq war cheerleader says what now?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:06 PM on November 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
Iraq war cheerleader says what now?
That's the thing with watching the hawks come back around on this one. The closest analogy I can think of is Catholic clerics towing the line on the Church's teaching on human sexuality -- sorry folks, but you have long ago and disastrously lost all credibility in this arena. Stay home.
posted by kensington314 at 3:12 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
That's the thing with watching the hawks come back around on this one. The closest analogy I can think of is Catholic clerics towing the line on the Church's teaching on human sexuality -- sorry folks, but you have long ago and disastrously lost all credibility in this arena. Stay home.
posted by kensington314 at 3:12 PM on November 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Biden administration seems to be brokering a deal between Hamas and Israel with an assist from Qatar that will allow for minimum 5 day ceasefire in exchange for 239 hostages.
posted by interogative mood at 3:25 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 3:25 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gaza health ministry says IDF will raid al-Shifa in coming minutes - report
Al Jazeera is reporting, citing the Gaza Health Ministry, that the IDF has informed officials it will raid al-Shifa hospital in the coming minutes.posted by BungaDunga at 3:33 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
I know a couple of people who went. I think they're moderate left.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023
What was that, box? Post seems unavailable to people without Bluesky.
skyview link (should work for everyone)
posted by BungaDunga at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
skyview link (should work for everyone)
posted by BungaDunga at 3:35 PM on November 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
Truly gross. What a dispiriting moment in the US.
posted by kensington314 at 5:37 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kensington314 at 5:37 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Times of Israel: Netanyahu downplays talk of hostage deal after Biden says he believes it’ll happen
Biden is just such a blurter. I mean, if you were in the middle of delicate hostage negotiations, would you really want one of the participants to grab a megaphone to announce to the world, "Hang in there, we’re coming!" There's just no help in that, but does help jerks like Netanyahu appear like the adult in the room: "If and when there will be something concrete to report, we will do so."
The TOI just added this brief live update: White House says Biden held lengthy talk with Netanyahu on efforts to free hostages
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu held a lengthy phone conversation on Tuesday with US President Joe Biden to discuss efforts to release the roughly 240 hostages in Gaza, the White House says.
It would be fun to know who said "Would you please cool it?" to whom on that call.
posted by mediareport at 6:53 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Biden is just such a blurter. I mean, if you were in the middle of delicate hostage negotiations, would you really want one of the participants to grab a megaphone to announce to the world, "Hang in there, we’re coming!" There's just no help in that, but does help jerks like Netanyahu appear like the adult in the room: "If and when there will be something concrete to report, we will do so."
The TOI just added this brief live update: White House says Biden held lengthy talk with Netanyahu on efforts to free hostages
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu held a lengthy phone conversation on Tuesday with US President Joe Biden to discuss efforts to release the roughly 240 hostages in Gaza, the White House says.
It would be fun to know who said "Would you please cool it?" to whom on that call.
posted by mediareport at 6:53 PM on November 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
More info about the hostages here, including news that one of the hostages, who was 9 months pregnant when abducted, has probably given birth, along with the sad news that 74-year-old Canadian/Israeli peace activist Vivian Silver, thought to have been abducted, has now been identified from her remains at the Be'eri Kibbutz.
Hamas also released a video showing the body of hostage Noa Marciano, a 19-year-old intelligence corps soldier, who Hamas claims was killed in an Israeli airstrike on 11/9. They included video of her speaking to the camera, taken a few days after the 10/7 attacks, then showed pictures of her body. The IDF called it "psychological terrorism."
posted by mediareport at 7:09 PM on November 14, 2023
Hamas also released a video showing the body of hostage Noa Marciano, a 19-year-old intelligence corps soldier, who Hamas claims was killed in an Israeli airstrike on 11/9. They included video of her speaking to the camera, taken a few days after the 10/7 attacks, then showed pictures of her body. The IDF called it "psychological terrorism."
posted by mediareport at 7:09 PM on November 14, 2023
If folks haven't yet seen the video from yesterday of Gil Dikman, who has relatives who were abducted on 10/7 and who was at the Knesset with other family members of the hostages to speak with lawmakers, confronting a Likud member after listening to her rant about "razing", "annihilating" and "flattening" Gaza, it's worth a look [Twitter, here's the Nitter mirror].
"My cousin is there. My cousin's wife is there. There are babies - Jews and Arabs, by the way - they are there." He goes on to shame her for ranting "like we're not here, and that's what you have to say?...Who are you flattening? Human beings that you have abandoned is who you're flattening!"
His anger at her is very real - at her, and by extension the right-wing thugs who prioritize bombing over getting the hostages back - will not go away anytime soon, and he's not alone.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
"My cousin is there. My cousin's wife is there. There are babies - Jews and Arabs, by the way - they are there." He goes on to shame her for ranting "like we're not here, and that's what you have to say?...Who are you flattening? Human beings that you have abandoned is who you're flattening!"
His anger at her is very real - at her, and by extension the right-wing thugs who prioritize bombing over getting the hostages back - will not go away anytime soon, and he's not alone.
posted by mediareport at 7:32 PM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gaza health ministry says IDF will raid al-Shifa in coming minutes - report
Confirmed by the IDF. "Precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital", they say.
posted by clawsoon at 8:00 PM on November 14, 2023
Confirmed by the IDF. "Precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital", they say.
posted by clawsoon at 8:00 PM on November 14, 2023
Can someone double-check the translation of the Hebrew tweet it's QTing?
Israel's Army Radio: "no indication" so far of hostages being held at Shifa hospital in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 12:15 AM on November 15, 2023
Israel's Army Radio: "no indication" so far of hostages being held at Shifa hospital in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 12:15 AM on November 15, 2023
NYT (14/11): Evidence Points to Israeli Shells in Strikes on Gaza’s Largest Hospital
subheader: Israel said Palestinian militants had misfired projectiles, but an analysis of photos and videos of Friday’s strikes shows that some of the munitions were likely fired by Israeli forces.
From article:
The strikes did not cause mass casualties, but Israel is under increasing international pressure to avoid targeting hospitals. Al-Shifa has emerged as a particular flashpoint: Israel contends it has evidence that the hospital sits on top of an underground Hamas command center and has been warning those still inside to evacuate, even as its troops have been actively working to surround the facility. Hospital officials deny Hamas operates there and have said patients are dying for lack of food, fuel and other supplies.
Israel’s assertion that Al-Shifa was actually hit by a Palestinian projectile echoed similar — and unresolved — claims and counterclaims following munitions that hit the courtyard of another Gaza hospital, Al-Ahli, nearly a month ago.
The evidence reviewed by The Times from Al-Shifa points more directly to strikes by Israel — whether on purpose or by accident is unclear.
In addition to the weapons remnants, an analysis of video footage shows that three of the projectiles were fired into the hospital from the north and south, contrary to the western trajectory indicated on a map released by the I.D.F., which it said was based on radar detections. A review of satellite images showed there were I.D.F. positions north and south of the hospital early Friday.
The strikes analyzed by The Times did not appear to be targeting underground infrastructure. Two of the most severe strikes hit upper floors of the maternity ward.
The I.D.F. declined to comment on the evidence presented by The Times. It said that Israeli forces had been engaged in an intense battle against Hamas and that because of the “specific military activity currently underway, we are unable to address or confirm specific queries.”
Coincidentally (as in I didn't see people linking to the article above), I saw tweets referring to this 2014 Tablet article (so this isn't sympathetic to Hamas), in talking about what to expect from IDF post-strike statements:
The idea that one of Hamas’ main command bunkers is located beneath Shifa Hospital in Gaza City is one of the worst-kept secrets of the Gaza war. So why aren’t reporters in Gaza ferreting it out? The precise location of a large underground bunker equipped with sophisticated communications equipment and housing some part of the leadership of a major terrorist organization beneath a major hospital would seem to qualify as a world-class scoop—the kind that might merit a Pulitzer, or at least a Polk.
So why isn’t the fact that Hamas uses Shifa Hospital as a command post making headlines? In part, it’s because the location is so un-secret that Hamas regularly meets with reporters there. On July 15, for example, William Booth of the Washington Post wrote that the hospital “has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.” Back in 2006, PBS even aired a documentary showing how gunmen roam the halls of the hospital, intimidate the staff, and deny them access to protected locations within the building—where the camera crew was obviously prohibited from filming. Yet the confirmation that Hamas is using Gaza City’s biggest hospital as its de facto headquarters was made in the last sentence of the eighth paragraph of Booth’s story—which would appear to be the kind of rookie mistake that is known in journalistic parlance as “burying the lede.”
But Booth is no rookie—he’s an experienced foreign reporter, which means that he buried the lede on purpose. Why? Well, one reason might be that the “security sources” quoted whenever the location of the Hamas command bunker is mentioned—which, as evidenced by this 2009 article by the excellent and highly experienced foreign correspondent Steven Erlanger of the New York Times, happens every time there’s a war in Gaza—are obviously Israelis, not members of Hamas. It might be hard to believe the Israelis, the simple logic might run, since they obviously have an investment in arguing that Hamas is using hospitals and schools as human shields.
The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 AM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
subheader: Israel said Palestinian militants had misfired projectiles, but an analysis of photos and videos of Friday’s strikes shows that some of the munitions were likely fired by Israeli forces.
From article:
The strikes did not cause mass casualties, but Israel is under increasing international pressure to avoid targeting hospitals. Al-Shifa has emerged as a particular flashpoint: Israel contends it has evidence that the hospital sits on top of an underground Hamas command center and has been warning those still inside to evacuate, even as its troops have been actively working to surround the facility. Hospital officials deny Hamas operates there and have said patients are dying for lack of food, fuel and other supplies.
Israel’s assertion that Al-Shifa was actually hit by a Palestinian projectile echoed similar — and unresolved — claims and counterclaims following munitions that hit the courtyard of another Gaza hospital, Al-Ahli, nearly a month ago.
The evidence reviewed by The Times from Al-Shifa points more directly to strikes by Israel — whether on purpose or by accident is unclear.
In addition to the weapons remnants, an analysis of video footage shows that three of the projectiles were fired into the hospital from the north and south, contrary to the western trajectory indicated on a map released by the I.D.F., which it said was based on radar detections. A review of satellite images showed there were I.D.F. positions north and south of the hospital early Friday.
The strikes analyzed by The Times did not appear to be targeting underground infrastructure. Two of the most severe strikes hit upper floors of the maternity ward.
The I.D.F. declined to comment on the evidence presented by The Times. It said that Israeli forces had been engaged in an intense battle against Hamas and that because of the “specific military activity currently underway, we are unable to address or confirm specific queries.”
Coincidentally (as in I didn't see people linking to the article above), I saw tweets referring to this 2014 Tablet article (so this isn't sympathetic to Hamas), in talking about what to expect from IDF post-strike statements:
The idea that one of Hamas’ main command bunkers is located beneath Shifa Hospital in Gaza City is one of the worst-kept secrets of the Gaza war. So why aren’t reporters in Gaza ferreting it out? The precise location of a large underground bunker equipped with sophisticated communications equipment and housing some part of the leadership of a major terrorist organization beneath a major hospital would seem to qualify as a world-class scoop—the kind that might merit a Pulitzer, or at least a Polk.
So why isn’t the fact that Hamas uses Shifa Hospital as a command post making headlines? In part, it’s because the location is so un-secret that Hamas regularly meets with reporters there. On July 15, for example, William Booth of the Washington Post wrote that the hospital “has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices.” Back in 2006, PBS even aired a documentary showing how gunmen roam the halls of the hospital, intimidate the staff, and deny them access to protected locations within the building—where the camera crew was obviously prohibited from filming. Yet the confirmation that Hamas is using Gaza City’s biggest hospital as its de facto headquarters was made in the last sentence of the eighth paragraph of Booth’s story—which would appear to be the kind of rookie mistake that is known in journalistic parlance as “burying the lede.”
But Booth is no rookie—he’s an experienced foreign reporter, which means that he buried the lede on purpose. Why? Well, one reason might be that the “security sources” quoted whenever the location of the Hamas command bunker is mentioned—which, as evidenced by this 2009 article by the excellent and highly experienced foreign correspondent Steven Erlanger of the New York Times, happens every time there’s a war in Gaza—are obviously Israelis, not members of Hamas. It might be hard to believe the Israelis, the simple logic might run, since they obviously have an investment in arguing that Hamas is using hospitals and schools as human shields.
The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 AM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
ISW report/Iran
Key Takeaways:
'Hamas is conducting a delaying operation against the advancing Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip to achieve strategic and operational effects. Hamas’ delay mission generates strategic effects by helping it rally support for Hamas among its partners, within the region, and internationally. Hamas’ delay effort also supports Hamas’ operational objectives within the Gaza Strip, which include preserving essential capabilities and key leaders and setting conditions to conduct an insurgency against Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip if necessary.
Israeli forces continued their advance toward al Shifa Hospital from the north and south. Israeli forces continued clearing operations north of Gaza City. Palestinian militias conducted two indirect fire attacks on Israeli forces in the central Gaza Strip. The IDF opened two humanitarian corridors leading to Salah al Din Street for civilians to evacuate the northern Gaza Strip.
Palestinian militias continued their usual rate of indirect fire from the Gaza Strip into Israel.
Palestinian fighters clashed with and conducted IED attacks against Israeli forces in Tulkarm. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine called for Palestinians to attack Israeli soldiers and civilians in the West Bank.
Iranian-backed militants, including Lebanese Hezbollah, conducted 18 cross-border attacks into northern Israel.
The Islamic Resistance in Iraq—a coalition of Iranian-backed Iraqi proxies—claimed three attacks on US bases in Syria. The al Dhaferin Group of the Islamic Resistance in Iraq threatened to escalate attacks against the United States in the region.
The Houthi movement Leader Abdul Malik al Houthi threatened to target Israeli ships in the Red Sea, specifically around the Bab al Mandeb, echoing a long-repeated threat. Israel intercepted a missile over the Red Sea targeting Eilat in southern Israel.
Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian held a telephone call with his Qatari counterpart Mohammad bin Abdolrahman al Thani.'
posted by clavdivs at 6:34 AM on November 15, 2023
Key Takeaways:
'Hamas is conducting a delaying operation against the advancing Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip to achieve strategic and operational effects. Hamas’ delay mission generates strategic effects by helping it rally support for Hamas among its partners, within the region, and internationally. Hamas’ delay effort also supports Hamas’ operational objectives within the Gaza Strip, which include preserving essential capabilities and key leaders and setting conditions to conduct an insurgency against Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip if necessary.
Israeli forces continued their advance toward al Shifa Hospital from the north and south. Israeli forces continued clearing operations north of Gaza City. Palestinian militias conducted two indirect fire attacks on Israeli forces in the central Gaza Strip. The IDF opened two humanitarian corridors leading to Salah al Din Street for civilians to evacuate the northern Gaza Strip.
Palestinian militias continued their usual rate of indirect fire from the Gaza Strip into Israel.
Palestinian fighters clashed with and conducted IED attacks against Israeli forces in Tulkarm. The Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine called for Palestinians to attack Israeli soldiers and civilians in the West Bank.
Iranian-backed militants, including Lebanese Hezbollah, conducted 18 cross-border attacks into northern Israel.
The Islamic Resistance in Iraq—a coalition of Iranian-backed Iraqi proxies—claimed three attacks on US bases in Syria. The al Dhaferin Group of the Islamic Resistance in Iraq threatened to escalate attacks against the United States in the region.
The Houthi movement Leader Abdul Malik al Houthi threatened to target Israeli ships in the Red Sea, specifically around the Bab al Mandeb, echoing a long-repeated threat. Israel intercepted a missile over the Red Sea targeting Eilat in southern Israel.
Iranian Foreign Affairs Minister Hossein Amir Abdollahian held a telephone call with his Qatari counterpart Mohammad bin Abdolrahman al Thani.'
posted by clavdivs at 6:34 AM on November 15, 2023
NYT: "‘Erase Gaza’: War Unleashes Incendiary Rhetoric in Israel: Experts say that inflammatory statements by prominent Israelis are normalizing ideas like the killing of civilians and mass deportations."
Intercept: "American Jews have mobilized several thousand Jews across the U.S. to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. ADL calls these Jewish organizations “hate groups.”"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:25 AM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Intercept: "American Jews have mobilized several thousand Jews across the U.S. to call for a ceasefire in Gaza. ADL calls these Jewish organizations “hate groups.”"
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:25 AM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
The most powerful antisemite in America, Christian Zionist leader Pastor John Hagee, channels his triumphalist, war-hungry imperial theology before a massive crowd of Jews whom he views as cannon fodder for the End Times. Truly chilling moment
From space lasers to Armageddon, Israel sure has picked some interesting friends to do its PR work.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:36 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
From space lasers to Armageddon, Israel sure has picked some interesting friends to do its PR work.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:36 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tariq Kenney-Shawa: This sounds like a pretty significant walk-back. Yesterday the US claimed that Hamas was using Al-Shifa as a “command center” to hold hostages, that they stored weapons there, and were “prepared to respond to an Israeli military operation.”
All of these claims appear false.
This is in comment to Barak Ravid's reporting: BREAKING: A senior Israeli official said that the purpose of the IDF operation at the al-Shifa hospital wasn't to rescue hostages but to locate and expose a Hamas tunnels hub that connects the hospital with other parts of the Gaza strip
More recently from him: White House John Kirby: We didn’t give an OK for the Israeli operation in al-Shifa hospital; Kirby added the U.S. doesn’t expect Israel to update it in advance about military operations in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 9:31 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
All of these claims appear false.
This is in comment to Barak Ravid's reporting: BREAKING: A senior Israeli official said that the purpose of the IDF operation at the al-Shifa hospital wasn't to rescue hostages but to locate and expose a Hamas tunnels hub that connects the hospital with other parts of the Gaza strip
More recently from him: White House John Kirby: We didn’t give an OK for the Israeli operation in al-Shifa hospital; Kirby added the U.S. doesn’t expect Israel to update it in advance about military operations in Gaza
posted by cendawanita at 9:31 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Muhammad Shehada: 🚨Senior Israeli official admits they KNEW there were NO hostages in al-Shifa.
He said the raid was merely a "symbol that there is no place we will not reach" (i.e. nothing is safe in Gaza).
No claim of a "Hamas command center".
15 hours of IDF search, still NO tunnels found!
The screenshot is from a translation of this live update in Hebrew - I ran through google translate and the timestamped status matches.
posted by cendawanita at 10:26 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
He said the raid was merely a "symbol that there is no place we will not reach" (i.e. nothing is safe in Gaza).
No claim of a "Hamas command center".
15 hours of IDF search, still NO tunnels found!
The screenshot is from a translation of this live update in Hebrew - I ran through google translate and the timestamped status matches.
posted by cendawanita at 10:26 AM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
The article says they captured two separate command centers in the Al Shifa complex these complexes included weapons, quarters for soldiers, computers and other military equipment. They are excited about the computers as they believe they will contain lots of useful intelligence. One was located in a bunker under the MRI clinic another was in a room in the hospital. The IDF claims that when they entered these areas there was a firefight with Hamas soldiers. Acompanying the article is a photo of automatic riffles and bulletproof vests, military boots and fatigues.
This 2015 report by Amnesty International noted that Hamas:
This just seems to be another attempt to minimize the scale of Hamas' crimes or pretend they didn't happen at all. It seems to be in the same vein as those claiming babies were not really beheaded, or that the people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters and not Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 10:58 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
This 2015 report by Amnesty International noted that Hamas:
As well as carrying out unlawful killings, others abducted by Hamas were subjected to torture, including severe beatings with truncheons, gun butts, hoses and wire or held in stress positions. Some were interrogated and tortured or otherwise ill-treated in a disused outpatient’s clinic within the grounds of Gaza City’s main al-Shifa hospital. At least three people arrested during the conflict accused of “collaboration” died in custody.Others have noted above that NPR journalists observed armed gunmen blocking access to parts the hospital during a their visit.
This just seems to be another attempt to minimize the scale of Hamas' crimes or pretend they didn't happen at all. It seems to be in the same vein as those claiming babies were not really beheaded, or that the people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters and not Hamas.
posted by interogative mood at 10:58 AM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
No one has said "people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters" in this discussion. Please stop with your distortions and nonsense.
posted by mediareport at 12:37 PM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 12:37 PM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Nation: The March for Israel Was a Hate Rally
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:54 PM on November 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:54 PM on November 15, 2023 [12 favorites]
Jack Crosbie for Discourse Blog: The US Public Won't Put Up With This Forever
posted by box at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by box at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not really interested in a long back and forth, but I feel that a response is warranted to mediareport.
No one has said "people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters" in this discussion. Please stop with your distortions and nonsense.
kmt and Lanark above made posts about the supposed Apache helicopter incident and Lanark linked to a debunked video claiming to show the Apache helicopters attacking civilians.
You also participated in the discussion of friendly fire sharing this unsourced and seemingly made up bit of news that seems to originate from the same spin campaign: "...Israeli military forces, after being taken totally by surprise and in the heat of battle, made the decision to send missiles into buildings they knew contained Israeli citizens..."
Haaretz published this article on the fake news reports like those above and how they fit into a larger PR campaign.
Coffeecat also made a comment debunking the helicopter footage and providing context on the attempts to spin the horrors of Oct 7th as just fabrications, friendly fire and false flags.
posted by interogative mood at 3:10 PM on November 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
No one has said "people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters" in this discussion. Please stop with your distortions and nonsense.
kmt and Lanark above made posts about the supposed Apache helicopter incident and Lanark linked to a debunked video claiming to show the Apache helicopters attacking civilians.
You also participated in the discussion of friendly fire sharing this unsourced and seemingly made up bit of news that seems to originate from the same spin campaign: "...Israeli military forces, after being taken totally by surprise and in the heat of battle, made the decision to send missiles into buildings they knew contained Israeli citizens..."
Haaretz published this article on the fake news reports like those above and how they fit into a larger PR campaign.
Coffeecat also made a comment debunking the helicopter footage and providing context on the attempts to spin the horrors of Oct 7th as just fabrications, friendly fire and false flags.
posted by interogative mood at 3:10 PM on November 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Acompanying the article is a photo of automatic riffles and bulletproof vests, military boots and fatigues.
It’s a picture of like 7 guns. US GOP lawmakers sport more gear than that on their Christmas cards. They’re gonna need better propaganda than that for the American audience.
posted by ohneat at 3:40 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
It’s a picture of like 7 guns. US GOP lawmakers sport more gear than that on their Christmas cards. They’re gonna need better propaganda than that for the American audience.
posted by ohneat at 3:40 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised i have to restate this, but your specific distortion that I called out, interogative mood, was the quote "people at the music festival were mostly gun downed by friendly fire from Apache helicopters", which, again, was never said in this discussion. You do this a lot, sliding exaggerations and small distortions into your comments, and it's really tiresome.
posted by mediareport at 3:55 PM on November 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 3:55 PM on November 15, 2023 [16 favorites]
It’s a picture of like 7 guns.
Also, for some reason a half eaten box of dates, probably WMD grade.
posted by ssg at 5:36 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also, for some reason a half eaten box of dates, probably WMD grade.
posted by ssg at 5:36 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
You’ve appended the phrase in this discussion to my comment. This is a deliberate distortion of my comment.
Hamas claims they didn’t kill any Israeli civilians and that the victims were either killed in friendly fire incidents or by mysterious other Palestinians who must have followed after the fences came down. Hamas linked media outlets and twitter accounts have been pushing fake and misleading stories about friendly fire ncidents as part of an effort to push their lie. One of those stories and fake videos was posted to a tweet that was shared in this thread. You also shared a story of dubious credibility and there was a third post that kicked off the friendly fire discussion.
posted by interogative mood at 6:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Hamas claims they didn’t kill any Israeli civilians and that the victims were either killed in friendly fire incidents or by mysterious other Palestinians who must have followed after the fences came down. Hamas linked media outlets and twitter accounts have been pushing fake and misleading stories about friendly fire ncidents as part of an effort to push their lie. One of those stories and fake videos was posted to a tweet that was shared in this thread. You also shared a story of dubious credibility and there was a third post that kicked off the friendly fire discussion.
posted by interogative mood at 6:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Lapid calls on Netanyahu to quit, says ‘government isn’t functioning’ during war
“Netanyahu needs to go now during the fighting,” the Yesh Atid leader told Channel 12 news — the first time he has openly called for the premier’s ouster since the beginning of the war.
...
“It is unfortunate and shameful that Lapid is playing politics during a war when he suggests ousting the prime minister who leads the campaign and replacing him with a government that will establish a Palestinian state and allow the Palestinian Authority to control Gaza,” the party said in a statement.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 6:35 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
“Netanyahu needs to go now during the fighting,” the Yesh Atid leader told Channel 12 news — the first time he has openly called for the premier’s ouster since the beginning of the war.
...
“It is unfortunate and shameful that Lapid is playing politics during a war when he suggests ousting the prime minister who leads the campaign and replacing him with a government that will establish a Palestinian state and allow the Palestinian Authority to control Gaza,” the party said in a statement.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 6:35 PM on November 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, please flag any problem comments and move on. Do not engage in arguments with users in-thread. You may also take things to MeFi Mail if need be. Thanks.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 8:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
It looks like the IDF has been repeatedly lying about so many things to so many different audiences that they actually started to believe their own lies about a massive terror complex under the hospital.
If the IDF genuinely didn't expect to find a massive terror complex under the hospital I think they would have brought more drop guns and fake terrorism pamphlets with them to at least create at least something they could sell on twitter.
Now the whole thing has blown up in their faces and even the US is claiming that they didn't give them a green light to raid the hospital and traumatise a bunch of civilians over a half dozen rifles and a box of dates.
posted by zymil at 12:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
If the IDF genuinely didn't expect to find a massive terror complex under the hospital I think they would have brought more drop guns and fake terrorism pamphlets with them to at least create at least something they could sell on twitter.
Now the whole thing has blown up in their faces and even the US is claiming that they didn't give them a green light to raid the hospital and traumatise a bunch of civilians over a half dozen rifles and a box of dates.
posted by zymil at 12:32 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Admittedly in the Arab-speaking world (and my adjacent Malay-speaking ass, and I imagine Indonesians and Swahili speakers), I have heard the joke/meme, "do you condemn Khamis*?" more than once now.
*Thursday
posted by cendawanita at 1:16 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
*Thursday
posted by cendawanita at 1:16 AM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
IfNotNow staged a protest last night in front of DNC headquarters
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:47 AM on November 16, 2023
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:47 AM on November 16, 2023
Per Joshua P. Hill and others, IDF deleted the tweet containing the walkthrough (? Haul? Unboxing?) video post-the recent ops. His tweet has screencap of 'this tweet has been deleted '.
HuffPost: CNN Quietly Cut Disputed Israeli Military Claim From Some Video Reports - Controversial claims by a military spokesperson were cut, without an editor’s note, from versions on CNN’s website, YouTube channel and some on-air reports.
posted by cendawanita at 3:09 AM on November 16, 2023
HuffPost: CNN Quietly Cut Disputed Israeli Military Claim From Some Video Reports - Controversial claims by a military spokesperson were cut, without an editor’s note, from versions on CNN’s website, YouTube channel and some on-air reports.
posted by cendawanita at 3:09 AM on November 16, 2023
Addition to the deleted tweet: Aric Toler: The IDF deleted and just now re-posted the video of the Shifa walkthrough on their Twitter and YouTube. The new versions are shorter -- they cut out a part at the end where the laptop was displaying a picture of Ori Megidish, a rescued Israeli soldier.
(I have no idea why this was redacted. The IDF official actually mentions her name in the original video, pointing it out)
posted by cendawanita at 3:39 AM on November 16, 2023
(I have no idea why this was redacted. The IDF official actually mentions her name in the original video, pointing it out)
posted by cendawanita at 3:39 AM on November 16, 2023
UN security council backs resolution calling for humanitarian pause in Gaza
posted by kmt at 5:21 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The US and the UK, two potentially veto-wielding powers, abstained on the resolution on the grounds that although they supported the emphasis on humanitarian relief, they could not give their full support because it contained no explicit criticism of Hamas. Russia also abstained on the grounds that it made no mention of an immediate ceasefire, its top imperative.we'll see:
The resolution was passed with 12 votes in favour, and is the first UN resolution on the Israel-Palestine conflict since 2016.
The Israeli foreign ministry said it rejected the resolution, prompting the Palestinian representative, Riyad Mansour, to ask the UN security council members what they intended to do in the face of that defiance.
UN resolutions are in theory legally binding, but are widely ignored, and the political significance lies in the US willingness to back a call for an extended humanitarian ceasefire, putting some pressure on its close ally Israel.(emphasis not in the original)
posted by kmt at 5:21 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
there was a claim made in an earlier posted article (the one from tablet mag) that the reason the idf was so sure about the underground command center at shifa was because the israelis had built it themselves in the 80s. presumably that would mean they know where the fucking place is. there or not, there should be a ceasefire all the same, but surely if it was there they would have more than 5 AKs and some dates
posted by dis_integration at 6:11 AM on November 16, 2023
posted by dis_integration at 6:11 AM on November 16, 2023
One of those stories and fake videos was posted to a tweet that was shared in this thread. You also shared a story of dubious credibility
I did not "share a story of dubious credibility," if that is a reference to this comment.
There are multiple accounts in Israeli newspapers of Apache helicopter pilots talking about the difficult decisions they faced about when and how to fire as they emptied their guns; I quickly added the word "apparently" to that comment, because I've had to rely on clunky software translations from the Hebrew, as those accounts did not appear to make it into the English-language press. Here's a translated section from one article:
After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.
It goes on to note the well-reported terrorist strategy of walking slowly to confuse the pilots, then adds:
This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions. It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors.
Here's a brief translated section from another story focusing on the Apache combat helicopter pilots and the horribly confusing situation they suddenly found themselves in, the emptying of all the rounds they had, and sending cannon fire towards buildings they knew had Israeli citizens in them:
"I was in the air during one of the sorties, it was already said that there were abductees," recalls Lt. Col. A.
Then what do we do? How do you shoot someone who is returning towards the border?
"Good question, and it's a super-complex dilemma."
shoot? Don't shoot? What to do?
"It's a very difficult dilemma," Lt. Col. A. also admits. "You look at the target, you see what's happening there." And Lt. Col. A. explains: "I allow myself to say that I already understand how targets behave - a kidnapped person will not run Within a group on his own initiative without anyone holding him back. And I choose such targets that I tell myself that the chance that I will shoot at abductees here as well is low."
But it's not 100 percent.
"To tell you one hundred percent, it's not."
There's more like that.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I did not "share a story of dubious credibility," if that is a reference to this comment.
There are multiple accounts in Israeli newspapers of Apache helicopter pilots talking about the difficult decisions they faced about when and how to fire as they emptied their guns; I quickly added the word "apparently" to that comment, because I've had to rely on clunky software translations from the Hebrew, as those accounts did not appear to make it into the English-language press. Here's a translated section from one article:
After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.
It goes on to note the well-reported terrorist strategy of walking slowly to confuse the pilots, then adds:
This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions. It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors.
Here's a brief translated section from another story focusing on the Apache combat helicopter pilots and the horribly confusing situation they suddenly found themselves in, the emptying of all the rounds they had, and sending cannon fire towards buildings they knew had Israeli citizens in them:
"I was in the air during one of the sorties, it was already said that there were abductees," recalls Lt. Col. A.
Then what do we do? How do you shoot someone who is returning towards the border?
"Good question, and it's a super-complex dilemma."
shoot? Don't shoot? What to do?
"It's a very difficult dilemma," Lt. Col. A. also admits. "You look at the target, you see what's happening there." And Lt. Col. A. explains: "I allow myself to say that I already understand how targets behave - a kidnapped person will not run Within a group on his own initiative without anyone holding him back. And I choose such targets that I tell myself that the chance that I will shoot at abductees here as well is low."
But it's not 100 percent.
"To tell you one hundred percent, it's not."
There's more like that.
posted by mediareport at 7:51 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
From Ali Abunimah:
'Catastrophe unfolding now at al-Shifa hospital: I summarize comments of hospital director Dr. Muhammad Abu Salmiya, speaking to Al Jazeera Arabic about 30 minutes ago:
There are about 7,000 people under total siege inside al-Shifa compound, including 650 injured people, 45 dialysis patients and 36 premature babies.
A few hours ago one dialysis patient died and 4 are at imminent risk of death because no power for dialysis machines. Three premature babies died in recent days. Two injured persons died in recent hours due to lack of treatment.
There is no water, fuel or electricity. Israel broke the main water line into the hospital. There is no purified water to make the special formula for the babies, so they are using ordinary water and some have become sick with diarrhea, infections, fever.
There is no food. Children are starving and distressed. There is no medicine and the wounds of injured people are becoming horribly infected, some with maggots.
Hospital administrators tried to send a delegation to the occupation forces to ask for food, fuel, medicine and safe evacuation of the sick and injured but the Israelis refused to to talk to them.
The hospital is besieged from all sides by tanks and bulldozers. The bulldozers are destroying areas around the compound, but no one can see clearly what they are doing. Anyone who tries to move between hospital buildings is shot at by snipers or drones. There are hundreds of soldiers in the hospital compound searching all over and causing severe damage to hospital premises and equipment.
In the 48 hours the occupation forces have been inside the hospital or on its grounds not a single shot has been fired at them.
No one can leave the hospital or enter it. The situation is disastrous not just for people in Shifa but for anyone in Gaza City who is injured or becomes ill, because no one can reach the hospital and the hospital can't do anything for them anyway. Anyone who has a heart attack or a stroke at home will die.
Dr. Abu Salmiya says "We hold the world responsible" for what he calls a genocide. "We are waiting for slow death."'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:11 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
'Catastrophe unfolding now at al-Shifa hospital: I summarize comments of hospital director Dr. Muhammad Abu Salmiya, speaking to Al Jazeera Arabic about 30 minutes ago:
There are about 7,000 people under total siege inside al-Shifa compound, including 650 injured people, 45 dialysis patients and 36 premature babies.
A few hours ago one dialysis patient died and 4 are at imminent risk of death because no power for dialysis machines. Three premature babies died in recent days. Two injured persons died in recent hours due to lack of treatment.
There is no water, fuel or electricity. Israel broke the main water line into the hospital. There is no purified water to make the special formula for the babies, so they are using ordinary water and some have become sick with diarrhea, infections, fever.
There is no food. Children are starving and distressed. There is no medicine and the wounds of injured people are becoming horribly infected, some with maggots.
Hospital administrators tried to send a delegation to the occupation forces to ask for food, fuel, medicine and safe evacuation of the sick and injured but the Israelis refused to to talk to them.
The hospital is besieged from all sides by tanks and bulldozers. The bulldozers are destroying areas around the compound, but no one can see clearly what they are doing. Anyone who tries to move between hospital buildings is shot at by snipers or drones. There are hundreds of soldiers in the hospital compound searching all over and causing severe damage to hospital premises and equipment.
In the 48 hours the occupation forces have been inside the hospital or on its grounds not a single shot has been fired at them.
No one can leave the hospital or enter it. The situation is disastrous not just for people in Shifa but for anyone in Gaza City who is injured or becomes ill, because no one can reach the hospital and the hospital can't do anything for them anyway. Anyone who has a heart attack or a stroke at home will die.
Dr. Abu Salmiya says "We hold the world responsible" for what he calls a genocide. "We are waiting for slow death."'
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:11 AM on November 16, 2023 [9 favorites]
that we can do these things to each other
shame on all of us
comments in isolation in this thread: well-reasoned, sound intelligent, full of information. tell me how this will make Israel safer.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:59 AM on November 16, 2023
shame on all of us
comments in isolation in this thread: well-reasoned, sound intelligent, full of information. tell me how this will make Israel safer.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:59 AM on November 16, 2023
Listen to Israeli survivors: They don’t want revenge (+972 magazine)
Against the prevailing public mood, many survivors of the Oct. 7 massacres and relatives of those killed or kidnapped are opposing retribution on Gaza.posted by hydropsyche at 10:02 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
...tell me how this will make Israel safer.
I would respond by saying that Israel's most recent strategy for safety was proven insufficient on Oct 7.
So, in broad strokes, what are Israel's options? Eliminate Hamas is a given.
- ethnic cleansing. Chase most of the Palestinians out
- reoccupy Gaza, ramp up defense some more. Operation "Titanium Dome", anyone?
- try to make peace and to resolve the Palestinian issue.
A horrible situation at present, and resolution seems difficult and far off.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:31 AM on November 16, 2023
I would respond by saying that Israel's most recent strategy for safety was proven insufficient on Oct 7.
So, in broad strokes, what are Israel's options? Eliminate Hamas is a given.
- ethnic cleansing. Chase most of the Palestinians out
- reoccupy Gaza, ramp up defense some more. Operation "Titanium Dome", anyone?
- try to make peace and to resolve the Palestinian issue.
A horrible situation at present, and resolution seems difficult and far off.
posted by Artful Codger at 10:31 AM on November 16, 2023
I think Peter Beinert said that Jews in Israel will never be safe as long as Palestinians are unsafe and I think that sums up the situation very well.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
It's sadly ironic that all the uniforms, guns and military personnel in the hospital are currently IDF.
posted by Mitheral at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Netanyahu and the hard-liners don't really care about making Israel safer in the sense of lasting peace. They care about ever enlarging the security state, and protecting their positions of power. An indefinite re-occupation of Gaza is one way to do that, for as long as that moment lasts.
Unless the backlash builds swiftly, probably long enough for the judicial reforms to become a permanent fait accompli; and for some of the heightened authoritarianism to become the norm even after an eventual pullout. As it did in the US with 9-11.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Unless the backlash builds swiftly, probably long enough for the judicial reforms to become a permanent fait accompli; and for some of the heightened authoritarianism to become the norm even after an eventual pullout. As it did in the US with 9-11.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [12 favorites]
Protesters calling for Gaza ceasefire shut down the Bay Bridge in CA this morning: The protesters stopped their cars on the bridge, east of Treasure Island, and threw their keys into the Bay before chaining themselves together and to the bridge.
Videos available from the AROCBayArea Twitter account.
posted by toastyk at 12:42 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
Videos available from the AROCBayArea Twitter account.
posted by toastyk at 12:42 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
It feels like it should mean something that Biden said he was "absolutely confident" that Hamas had a command centre under Al-Shifa Hospital and now that turns out to be clearly not true at all. He's just repeating whatever Netanyahu tells him. But this doesn't seem to matter.
posted by ssg at 1:24 PM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by ssg at 1:24 PM on November 16, 2023 [13 favorites]
Hospital bunkers are looking a lot like the new Iraqi WMDs.
posted by Dysk at 1:27 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Dysk at 1:27 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
The LA Times Editorial Board is calling for a ceasefire in an op-ed entitled, "Ceasefire now. The killing in Gaza must stop."
Already, more children have died in Gaza in the last month than in all other conflicts around the world this year, according to Save the Children. That cruel fact is one of many that have turned world opinion against Israel, and against the U.S., its chief ally and the provider of most of its weapons. The consequences for both nations will last generations. The trauma inflicted on Palestinian survivors only increases the recruiting ability of Israel’s enemies, whether they be Hamas, Hezbollah or any successors bent on destruction of the Jewish state.
I don't really think the LAT is a major US newspaper, but it is the only editorial board call for a ceasefire I've seen other than the FT one. Have others seen this in other papers?
posted by kensington314 at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
Already, more children have died in Gaza in the last month than in all other conflicts around the world this year, according to Save the Children. That cruel fact is one of many that have turned world opinion against Israel, and against the U.S., its chief ally and the provider of most of its weapons. The consequences for both nations will last generations. The trauma inflicted on Palestinian survivors only increases the recruiting ability of Israel’s enemies, whether they be Hamas, Hezbollah or any successors bent on destruction of the Jewish state.
I don't really think the LAT is a major US newspaper, but it is the only editorial board call for a ceasefire I've seen other than the FT one. Have others seen this in other papers?
posted by kensington314 at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [4 favorites]
UN press release: UN experts call on international community to prevent genocide against the Palestinian people.
Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Grave violations committed by Israel against Palestinians in the aftermath of 7 October, particularly in Gaza, point to a genocide in the making, UN experts said today. They illustrated evidence of increasing genocidal incitement, overt intent to “destroy the Palestinian people under occupation”, loud calls for a ‘second Nakba’ in Gaza and the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, and the use of powerful weaponry with inherently indiscriminate impacts, resulting in a colossal death toll and destruction of life-sustaining infrastructure.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
that we can do these things to each other
shame on all of us
comments in isolation in this thread: well-reasoned, sound intelligent, full of information. tell me how this will make Israel safer.
I don't think any of this brings shame on all of us. It brings shame on the Israeli government, Hamas, and anybody who supports either group's actions. The 30,000 foot existential thing is so abstract as to obscure everyone else's responsibility, which is distinct from shame.
Our responsibility is to push for more humane short and long term solutions, relative to our individual power (are we citizens of an involved nation like Israel or the U.S. or others? are we State Department officials? are we members of a religious community? etc etc etc).
And yes, that includes making Israel safer, but it is not limited to that. We should all want for Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel to be safe, and for Jews in the diaspora, and for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. We can't treat these things like they're mutually exclusive.
And surely the task isn't simple. But the bombardment and invasion aren't going to destroy Hamas, and no way forward starts without a ceasefire, so the question is when it happens.
posted by kensington314 at 2:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
shame on all of us
comments in isolation in this thread: well-reasoned, sound intelligent, full of information. tell me how this will make Israel safer.
I don't think any of this brings shame on all of us. It brings shame on the Israeli government, Hamas, and anybody who supports either group's actions. The 30,000 foot existential thing is so abstract as to obscure everyone else's responsibility, which is distinct from shame.
Our responsibility is to push for more humane short and long term solutions, relative to our individual power (are we citizens of an involved nation like Israel or the U.S. or others? are we State Department officials? are we members of a religious community? etc etc etc).
And yes, that includes making Israel safer, but it is not limited to that. We should all want for Jewish and Arab citizens of Israel to be safe, and for Jews in the diaspora, and for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. We can't treat these things like they're mutually exclusive.
And surely the task isn't simple. But the bombardment and invasion aren't going to destroy Hamas, and no way forward starts without a ceasefire, so the question is when it happens.
posted by kensington314 at 2:12 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
If America did actually cut off weapon shipments to Israel, would it make much difference?
Israel is a weapons exporter, it clearly has weapons manufacturing capability of its own. Additionally, both China and Russia would doubtless be eager to sell, or maybe even give in Xi's case, weapons to Israel. It'd be a diplomatic upraised middle finger to America and it's get all three of them presenting a sort of united front of nations who think its OK to kill off troublesome minorities. Heck, India wants in on that too and they make weapons.
Are there any actual logistics experts here who know?
posted by sotonohito at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2023
Israel is a weapons exporter, it clearly has weapons manufacturing capability of its own. Additionally, both China and Russia would doubtless be eager to sell, or maybe even give in Xi's case, weapons to Israel. It'd be a diplomatic upraised middle finger to America and it's get all three of them presenting a sort of united front of nations who think its OK to kill off troublesome minorities. Heck, India wants in on that too and they make weapons.
Are there any actual logistics experts here who know?
posted by sotonohito at 3:06 PM on November 16, 2023
Additionally, both China and Russia would doubtless be eager to sell, or maybe even give in Xi's case, weapons to Israel.
Wouldn't this cause complications for the Russians with Iran and Syria, and for Israel with the US? (Not sure about China?) My impression is that it's not just about weapons-for-money, but about a whole web of relationships that have built up over decades. The middle of a war seems like a tricky time to rewire all those connections.
posted by clawsoon at 3:16 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wouldn't this cause complications for the Russians with Iran and Syria, and for Israel with the US? (Not sure about China?) My impression is that it's not just about weapons-for-money, but about a whole web of relationships that have built up over decades. The middle of a war seems like a tricky time to rewire all those connections.
posted by clawsoon at 3:16 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
If America did actually cut off weapon shipments to Israel, would it make much difference?
I think you underestimate the degree to which Israel is dependent on the US for parts for jets, helicopters and all kinds of other complex systems that can't just be replaced with something from Russia or China. If the US stopped shipping these items to Israel, it would be a huge deal. But it would also be a huge deal internationally if the US stopped vetoing UN Security Council resolutions and otherwise stopped publicly supporting Israel. There's no doubt that they rely on international support to do what they are doing, this isn't just about weapons.
posted by ssg at 3:31 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think you underestimate the degree to which Israel is dependent on the US for parts for jets, helicopters and all kinds of other complex systems that can't just be replaced with something from Russia or China. If the US stopped shipping these items to Israel, it would be a huge deal. But it would also be a huge deal internationally if the US stopped vetoing UN Security Council resolutions and otherwise stopped publicly supporting Israel. There's no doubt that they rely on international support to do what they are doing, this isn't just about weapons.
posted by ssg at 3:31 PM on November 16, 2023 [5 favorites]
It would certainly make a difference, it could cause serious problems for operating things like the F-15 and F-16, Apaches, Blackhawks, Patriots, etc.; which could limit Israels short-term military potential. But it would be overcome; and would also encourage Israel to become more autarchic and reactionary.
They do make their own main battle tank and other armor, their own air-to-air missiles. But haven't produced an indigenous fighter since the early 70s Kfir (a Mirage 5 copy, powered by a copy of a GE turbofan dating back to 1955). It would take them at least a little while to regain that capability, their last attempt was abandoned in the 80s when they bought F-16s instead (after heavy US lobbying).
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
They do make their own main battle tank and other armor, their own air-to-air missiles. But haven't produced an indigenous fighter since the early 70s Kfir (a Mirage 5 copy, powered by a copy of a GE turbofan dating back to 1955). It would take them at least a little while to regain that capability, their last attempt was abandoned in the 80s when they bought F-16s instead (after heavy US lobbying).
posted by snuffleupagus at 3:45 PM on November 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hospital bunkers are looking a lot like the new Iraqi WMDs.In a similar vein, this all has reminded me of the QAnon dudes who have shot up, set fire to, and otherwise harassed a pizza joint because it hosts a halls-of-power pedophiliac ring in its basement. With said basement not actually... you know... existing.
posted by Flunkie at 4:02 PM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Latest headlines:
Body of 65-year-old hostage found near Al-Shifa Hospital, IDF says
IDF says it's 'quite close' to destroying Hamas' military system in northern Gaza
IDF says it found Hamas intelligence material, information on hostages at Al-Shifa Hospital
Kirby says US 'still convinced of the soundness' of intelligence on Al-Shifa Hospital
All telecoms down in Gaza Strip.
'U.S. Security Cooperation with Israel
FACT SHEET
Western media reported that Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei complained that Hamas did not warn Iran about its October 7 attack during his meeting with Hamas Political Bureau Head Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran on November 5, citing Iranian and Hamas officials. Reuters also reported that Khamenei warned Haniyeh that Iran would not “enter the war on your behalf” and pressured the Hamas leader to silence his group members calling for Iran and LH to fully join the war against Israel.
Western media previously reported that American intelligence officials have obtained information suggesting that Iranian officials were surprised by Hamas’ October 7 attack. Western media reported that while Iranian officials were aware that Hamas was planning the attack, they were not aware of the timing or scale. Some Western media has also reported that Iranian officials were directly involved in planning and preparation for the attack, including training Hamas militants inside Iran in the weeks before October 7.
It is noteworthy that Iranian officials and media have been conducting two separate information operations, denying any Iranian involvement in or foreknowledge of the attack on the one hand and emphasizing Iranian support for Hamas and the Palestinian resistance on the other, as CTP-ISW previously reported.
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Body of 65-year-old hostage found near Al-Shifa Hospital, IDF says
IDF says it's 'quite close' to destroying Hamas' military system in northern Gaza
IDF says it found Hamas intelligence material, information on hostages at Al-Shifa Hospital
Kirby says US 'still convinced of the soundness' of intelligence on Al-Shifa Hospital
All telecoms down in Gaza Strip.
'U.S. Security Cooperation with Israel
FACT SHEET
Western media reported that Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei complained that Hamas did not warn Iran about its October 7 attack during his meeting with Hamas Political Bureau Head Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran on November 5, citing Iranian and Hamas officials. Reuters also reported that Khamenei warned Haniyeh that Iran would not “enter the war on your behalf” and pressured the Hamas leader to silence his group members calling for Iran and LH to fully join the war against Israel.
Western media previously reported that American intelligence officials have obtained information suggesting that Iranian officials were surprised by Hamas’ October 7 attack. Western media reported that while Iranian officials were aware that Hamas was planning the attack, they were not aware of the timing or scale. Some Western media has also reported that Iranian officials were directly involved in planning and preparation for the attack, including training Hamas militants inside Iran in the weeks before October 7.
It is noteworthy that Iranian officials and media have been conducting two separate information operations, denying any Iranian involvement in or foreknowledge of the attack on the one hand and emphasizing Iranian support for Hamas and the Palestinian resistance on the other, as CTP-ISW previously reported.
posted by clavdivs at 4:13 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
snuffleupagus: But haven't produced an indigenous fighter since the early 70s Kfir (a Mirage 5 copy, powered by a copy of a GE turbofan dating back to 1955). It would take them at least a little while to regain that capability, their last attempt was abandoned in the 80s when they bought F-16s instead (after heavy US lobbying).
I have the impression that high-quality military jet engines in particular can only be made by a handful of companies in the world, and they lock their secrets up very tightly. China has been trying to make one for 50 years with limited luck, and Russian capacity has been fading compared to the West.
But maybe France would step in with technology help, like they did with the Mirage and the atomic bomb? The current French government certainly seems to be completely supportive of Israel, and perhaps they'd decide to revive that old Gaullist independence.
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 PM on November 16, 2023
I have the impression that high-quality military jet engines in particular can only be made by a handful of companies in the world, and they lock their secrets up very tightly. China has been trying to make one for 50 years with limited luck, and Russian capacity has been fading compared to the West.
But maybe France would step in with technology help, like they did with the Mirage and the atomic bomb? The current French government certainly seems to be completely supportive of Israel, and perhaps they'd decide to revive that old Gaullist independence.
posted by clawsoon at 4:21 PM on November 16, 2023
Yes, that's right. But Israel does produce drones, and at least some jet engine parts for the US fighters it operates. It has plenty of experience maintaining the F-15 and F-16 engines and a significant number of examples to reverse engineer (and cannibalize) if it came to that. It's probably as well positioned as a country can be to bridge that gap. It would still be difficult, expensive and be a long term project.
The more immediate focus would be on keeping what they have flying. And they certainly have more capability at their disposal than, say, Iran. Who nevertheless have kept at least some of their Tomcats and Phantoms flying.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:38 PM on November 16, 2023
The more immediate focus would be on keeping what they have flying. And they certainly have more capability at their disposal than, say, Iran. Who nevertheless have kept at least some of their Tomcats and Phantoms flying.
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:38 PM on November 16, 2023
'The main exports from Ukraine to Israel in 2012 were: grain (50.6%), non-precious metal (18.2%), aircraft (6.9%), food industry byproducts (5.8%), oil...'
Europe 'aiding and assisting' Israel's war in Gaza with key weapons.
"Historically, US policy has phased out types of assistance to Israel as it no longer was necessary, as with economic aid and offshore procurement. Could the US actually end military aid to Israel in the years to come? Ending Military Aid to Israel.
give a fighter jet a missile and it can shoot at something for one day. give a fighter jet a factory and it can shoot at things all day long.
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Europe 'aiding and assisting' Israel's war in Gaza with key weapons.
"Historically, US policy has phased out types of assistance to Israel as it no longer was necessary, as with economic aid and offshore procurement. Could the US actually end military aid to Israel in the years to come? Ending Military Aid to Israel.
give a fighter jet a missile and it can shoot at something for one day. give a fighter jet a factory and it can shoot at things all day long.
posted by clavdivs at 4:50 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Times of Israel: Liberal Jewish groups lament DC rally’s rightward bent, say progressives pushed away
“Even the speakers who were on the ‘left’ were like a right-wing person’s imagination of a left-wing person; there was nobody who spoke who was left of center on Israel-Palestine,” said Hadar Susskind, who leads the progressive Jewish group Americans for Peace Now (APN)...
Susskind worries that by failing to platform any speakers with a progressive message on the conflict, organizers “missed an opportunity” to garner support from liberal Americans and could end up driving them further away...“For people who don’t live and breathe this all the time, who saw it on the news or read about it on social media, the ‘pro-Israel rally’ was a right-wing rally,” he said.
posted by mediareport at 3:44 AM on November 17, 2023
“Even the speakers who were on the ‘left’ were like a right-wing person’s imagination of a left-wing person; there was nobody who spoke who was left of center on Israel-Palestine,” said Hadar Susskind, who leads the progressive Jewish group Americans for Peace Now (APN)...
Susskind worries that by failing to platform any speakers with a progressive message on the conflict, organizers “missed an opportunity” to garner support from liberal Americans and could end up driving them further away...“For people who don’t live and breathe this all the time, who saw it on the news or read about it on social media, the ‘pro-Israel rally’ was a right-wing rally,” he said.
posted by mediareport at 3:44 AM on November 17, 2023
Times of Israel also has a good article about the involuntary manslaughter arrest made in the case of Paul Kessler, the 69-year old Jewish man who died after an altercation at a protest near Los Angeles:
Fryhoff said investigators had received conflicting information from witnesses on both sides about what took place, impairing witness credibility and making it difficult to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. The department did not respond to questions Thursday from The Associated Press as to whether additional footage or other evidence prompted the arrest...
Before Alnaji was charged, Edward Obayashi, a former San Diego police officer and special prosecutor, said he was not surprised by the arrest on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter, the lowest level charge for a death. Additional charges, including for a hate crime, could still be considered...
“We have a very high-profile incident, obviously, given the backdrop of what’s going on in the world,” he said. “So there is a lot of pressure on the authorities. The default position is making an arrest.”
The DA announced there'll be a press conference today.
posted by mediareport at 3:56 AM on November 17, 2023
Fryhoff said investigators had received conflicting information from witnesses on both sides about what took place, impairing witness credibility and making it difficult to prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. The department did not respond to questions Thursday from The Associated Press as to whether additional footage or other evidence prompted the arrest...
Before Alnaji was charged, Edward Obayashi, a former San Diego police officer and special prosecutor, said he was not surprised by the arrest on suspicion of involuntary manslaughter, the lowest level charge for a death. Additional charges, including for a hate crime, could still be considered...
“We have a very high-profile incident, obviously, given the backdrop of what’s going on in the world,” he said. “So there is a lot of pressure on the authorities. The default position is making an arrest.”
The DA announced there'll be a press conference today.
posted by mediareport at 3:56 AM on November 17, 2023
New York Charities Send Combat Gear to West Bank Settlements
posted by clawsoon at 4:54 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
By chipping into a “thermal drone matching campaign,” donors can help the Long Island-based One Israel Fund buy remote-controlled aerial vehicles for settler militias. With a contribution to the American Friends of Ateret Cohanim’s “security projects,” they can equip settlers with accessories for their guns and tools to keep an eye on “Arab thugs” in occupied East Jerusalem. Donating to the Brooklyn-based Hebron Fund’s “Israel Is Under Attack” campaign helps expand one of Israel’s most extensive local surveillance networks. If New Yorkers contribute by the end of the year, they can write it off on their 2023 tax returns.I originally saw the article on Slate, but whatever New York Focus is they've got the article for free, so here you go.
Since the October 7 Hamas attack that killed around 1,200 Israelis, the New York-based nonprofits have raised millions for tactical equipment for settlers across the West Bank. The organizations — right-wing groups dedicated to Jewish rule over the holy land — work directly with the Israeli military and with the settlements, which are illegal under international law.
posted by clawsoon at 4:54 AM on November 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah, no Susskind, it didn't appear to be a far right wing pro-genocide rally just because us kids these days are too tied up in the twitters and instagrams to understand the real complexities.
It was a far right wing pro-genocide rally and any supposed liberal or leftist who appeared there should be ashamed of themselves and reevaluating their life choices.
posted by sotonohito at 6:20 AM on November 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
It was a far right wing pro-genocide rally and any supposed liberal or leftist who appeared there should be ashamed of themselves and reevaluating their life choices.
posted by sotonohito at 6:20 AM on November 17, 2023 [10 favorites]
"New images taken this morning by @Maxar show an enormous crowd of displaced Palestinians filing through two structures on Salah al-Din road...posted by BungaDunga at 1:54 PM on November 17, 2023
This video of the same location, posted on Monday and geolocated by The Post, shows the crowd filing through what looks like two shipping containers. It alleges that a facial recognition camera is involved."
The bodies of two hostages have supposedly been found on the campus of Al Shifa and they have started to discover tunnels. It is still too soon to verify any claims about an intelligence failure or deliberate misinformation campaign regarding the Hamas use of the hospital complex. Of course given the nature of this conflict I’m sure that skeptics will challenge any evidence presented.
posted by interogative mood at 3:56 PM on November 17, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 3:56 PM on November 17, 2023
If the source is the IDF then it’s immediately suspect, their propaganda campaign has been doing a full court press. I did enjoy the video of IDF soldiers loading obviously empty boxes with “medical supplies” (yes in English) written on them.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:02 PM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:02 PM on November 17, 2023 [6 favorites]
Just for memory keeping of this thread: IDF raided the Ibn Sina Hospital, in Jenin, the West Bank yesterday.
posted by cendawanita at 4:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
It's just hospitals all the way down: Shona Murray (note location) - Break: Ehud Olmert tells me Hamas command center is in Khan Younis - not #Shifa hospital.
“Khan Younis, which is in the southern part of Gaza Strip, is the real headquarters of Hamas.” . In full in Euronews.
posted by cendawanita at 5:07 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
“Khan Younis, which is in the southern part of Gaza Strip, is the real headquarters of Hamas.” . In full in Euronews.
posted by cendawanita at 5:07 PM on November 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Back to Al-Shifa: Richard Hall - The BBC reports on what appears to be an attempt by the IDF to rearrange guns and equipment they found in al-Shifa Hospital for embedded media.
His own The Independent report: Biden defends Israeli hospital raid in search for Hamas HQ - Biden gave tacit approval to the raid, claiming Hamas headquarters was hidden under the hospital
The language is still journalist measured but the main tenor is that they're not buying it pending stronger proof, as well as noting the downgrade in the description of just how big a military asset the hospital is. Re: the edit that's blurred out the laptop - tweets like this (ymmv) claims the charger is identified with a labelling system matching the IT dept of the IDF, but also it's not a plug that's used in Gaza's sockets+ downthread someone added comparisons to the standard Arabic keyboard.
More generally: Can You Tell Us Why This Is Happening? (n+1)
Throughout the war, many Gazans have sent voice memos to relatives and foreign organizations informing them of their conditions. Some of these memos were sent to a US-based organization, which prefers to remain anonymous. This organization in turn forwarded the voice messages to a team of volunteer transcribers and translators in New York City and Chicago. The following testimonies, edited for length and clarity, represent a small selection from the transcript.
posted by cendawanita at 5:22 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
His own The Independent report: Biden defends Israeli hospital raid in search for Hamas HQ - Biden gave tacit approval to the raid, claiming Hamas headquarters was hidden under the hospital
The language is still journalist measured but the main tenor is that they're not buying it pending stronger proof, as well as noting the downgrade in the description of just how big a military asset the hospital is. Re: the edit that's blurred out the laptop - tweets like this (ymmv) claims the charger is identified with a labelling system matching the IT dept of the IDF, but also it's not a plug that's used in Gaza's sockets+ downthread someone added comparisons to the standard Arabic keyboard.
More generally: Can You Tell Us Why This Is Happening? (n+1)
Throughout the war, many Gazans have sent voice memos to relatives and foreign organizations informing them of their conditions. Some of these memos were sent to a US-based organization, which prefers to remain anonymous. This organization in turn forwarded the voice messages to a team of volunteer transcribers and translators in New York City and Chicago. The following testimonies, edited for length and clarity, represent a small selection from the transcript.
posted by cendawanita at 5:22 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
CNN is using much more critical language in the general coverage, per this Jake Tapper video shared by Dan Cohen. I'm definitely noting the tone, which is a rundown on "extreme speech from Israeli cabinet members inflames tensions".
posted by cendawanita at 5:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 5:38 PM on November 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
The bodies of two hostages have supposedly been found on the campus of Al Shifa and they have started to discover tunnels. It is still too soon to verify any claims about an intelligence failure or deliberate misinformation campaign regarding the Hamas use of the hospital complex. Of course given the nature of this conflict I’m sure that skeptics will challenge any evidence presented.
By the same token, this is not a binary operation we are looking at. It is not that either (a) Al Shifa is strictly a hospital and no Hamas members have set foot in it in the last decade, or (b) Al Shifa covered up Hamas's central command center and secret underground megalair and everyone within a kilometer of it was complicit in Oct. 7.
Some degree of Hamas presence at one time or another -- and possibly recently -- in the bunker is certainly possible. But I am going to stress this very loudly -- if you are going to deliberately choose to raid a hospital of all places, causing large amounts of death and suffering amongst the helpless, there are only two possible reasons for it to happen:
1) There were enemy forces beneath it in FAR greater amounts and FAR greater threat levels than have been presented to the public as evidence so far, to justify actions of that drastic a magnitude, or
2) Your intent is to punish, demoralize and inflict maximum damage not on Hamas, but on the citizenry of Gaza.
I know which one I believe.
posted by delfin at 5:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
By the same token, this is not a binary operation we are looking at. It is not that either (a) Al Shifa is strictly a hospital and no Hamas members have set foot in it in the last decade, or (b) Al Shifa covered up Hamas's central command center and secret underground megalair and everyone within a kilometer of it was complicit in Oct. 7.
Some degree of Hamas presence at one time or another -- and possibly recently -- in the bunker is certainly possible. But I am going to stress this very loudly -- if you are going to deliberately choose to raid a hospital of all places, causing large amounts of death and suffering amongst the helpless, there are only two possible reasons for it to happen:
1) There were enemy forces beneath it in FAR greater amounts and FAR greater threat levels than have been presented to the public as evidence so far, to justify actions of that drastic a magnitude, or
2) Your intent is to punish, demoralize and inflict maximum damage not on Hamas, but on the citizenry of Gaza.
I know which one I believe.
posted by delfin at 5:50 PM on November 17, 2023 [20 favorites]
Israel told Palestinians to evacuate to southern Gaza — and stepped up attacks there
Israeli bombardment has killed thousands of civilians in the areas of the Gaza Strip that Israel has ordered them to move to, Gaza health ministry death tolls show. Witnesses' accounts, satellite data and expert assessment gathered by NPR show that Israeli airstrikes and artillery fire occur daily in the areas Israel has said are "safer" for civilians, and have hit schools, residential towers and overcrowded United Nations refugee shelters.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:53 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israeli bombardment has killed thousands of civilians in the areas of the Gaza Strip that Israel has ordered them to move to, Gaza health ministry death tolls show. Witnesses' accounts, satellite data and expert assessment gathered by NPR show that Israeli airstrikes and artillery fire occur daily in the areas Israel has said are "safer" for civilians, and have hit schools, residential towers and overcrowded United Nations refugee shelters.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:53 PM on November 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Nation: Israel’s War on American Student Activists: "For years the Israel on Campus Coalition—a little-known organization with links to Israeli intelligence—has used student informants to spy on pro-Palestinian campus groups."
Head of the ADL applauds Elon Musk's promise to censor pro-Palestine content on Twitter (someone predicted this)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:24 AM on November 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
Head of the ADL applauds Elon Musk's promise to censor pro-Palestine content on Twitter (someone predicted this)
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:24 AM on November 18, 2023 [5 favorites]
likewise the nation: israel’s ludicrous propaganda wins over the only audience that counts
it is becoming increasingly clear that the actions of israel's government are not just genocidal but openly genocidal. i regret having waffled earlier this month and last on whether it is possible to in good faith have doubts about that. if it were possible to have doubts about that then, it is certainly not possible now.
journalists and pundits are using the term "rumsfeldian" to describe israel's government's clumsy attempts to manufacture evidence that whatever was actually under al-shifa was in any way similar to what they claimed was under there before their attack on that hospital. it is not, however, rumsfeldian, because no one in george w. bush's misbegotten administration, not even that psychopathic walrus john bolton, ever seriously called for or planned for or carried out actions toward the total extermination of the people of iraq.
netanyahu's government is committing the most atrocious crimes possible against the people of palestine, against humanity on the whole, and moreover against judaism itself. anyone who can look at their ongoing actions in gaza and in the west bank as well because lol yolo why not and not see that is delusional.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:24 AM on November 18, 2023 [21 favorites]
it is becoming increasingly clear that the actions of israel's government are not just genocidal but openly genocidal. i regret having waffled earlier this month and last on whether it is possible to in good faith have doubts about that. if it were possible to have doubts about that then, it is certainly not possible now.
journalists and pundits are using the term "rumsfeldian" to describe israel's government's clumsy attempts to manufacture evidence that whatever was actually under al-shifa was in any way similar to what they claimed was under there before their attack on that hospital. it is not, however, rumsfeldian, because no one in george w. bush's misbegotten administration, not even that psychopathic walrus john bolton, ever seriously called for or planned for or carried out actions toward the total extermination of the people of iraq.
netanyahu's government is committing the most atrocious crimes possible against the people of palestine, against humanity on the whole, and moreover against judaism itself. anyone who can look at their ongoing actions in gaza and in the west bank as well because lol yolo why not and not see that is delusional.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:24 AM on November 18, 2023 [21 favorites]
Heartbreaking NYT article with graphic photos: The War Turns Gaza Into a ‘Graveyard’ for Children [ungated]
Gaza, the United Nations warns, has become “a graveyard for thousands of children.”...Health officials in Gaza say that 5,000 Palestinian children have been killed since the Israeli assault began, and possibly hundreds more. Many international officials and experts familiar with the way death tolls are compiled in the territory say the overall numbers are generally reliable.
If the figures are even close to accurate, far more children have been killed in Gaza in the past six weeks than the 2,985 children killed in the world’s major conflict zones combined — across two dozen countries — during all of last year, even with the war in Ukraine, according to U.N. tallies of verified deaths in armed conflict...
“They are given a designation — ‘Unknown Trauma Child’ — until someone recognizes them,” he said. “The crippling thing is that some of them are the sole survivors of their family, so no one ever comes.”
posted by mediareport at 12:13 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Gaza, the United Nations warns, has become “a graveyard for thousands of children.”...Health officials in Gaza say that 5,000 Palestinian children have been killed since the Israeli assault began, and possibly hundreds more. Many international officials and experts familiar with the way death tolls are compiled in the territory say the overall numbers are generally reliable.
If the figures are even close to accurate, far more children have been killed in Gaza in the past six weeks than the 2,985 children killed in the world’s major conflict zones combined — across two dozen countries — during all of last year, even with the war in Ukraine, according to U.N. tallies of verified deaths in armed conflict...
“They are given a designation — ‘Unknown Trauma Child’ — until someone recognizes them,” he said. “The crippling thing is that some of them are the sole survivors of their family, so no one ever comes.”
posted by mediareport at 12:13 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Tentative Deal to Pause Conflict and Free Dozens of Hostages (WaPo gift)
posted by box at 5:37 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by box at 5:37 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Note that Musk retweeted with his own message that "You have said the actual truth.” a person spreading the antisemitic lie that Jews hate white people and work to bring non-white immigrants to white nations as a means of harming and killing white people.
The ADL issued a bland, pro-forma criticism and then turned around and praised him for his plans to censor anti-gebocide accounts on Twitter.
As we saw with Hagee the ADL and other right wing pro-genocide groups don't actually care one tiny bit about real antisemitism. Their purpose is to smear critics of Israel's policy of genocide as antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 6:42 PM on November 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
The ADL issued a bland, pro-forma criticism and then turned around and praised him for his plans to censor anti-gebocide accounts on Twitter.
As we saw with Hagee the ADL and other right wing pro-genocide groups don't actually care one tiny bit about real antisemitism. Their purpose is to smear critics of Israel's policy of genocide as antisemitic.
posted by sotonohito at 6:42 PM on November 18, 2023 [16 favorites]
elon musk: the wernher von braun at home.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:51 PM on November 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 8:51 PM on November 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
elon musk: the wernher von braun at home.
That feels like giving him way too much credit.
posted by mollweide at 9:28 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
That feels like giving him way too much credit.
posted by mollweide at 9:28 PM on November 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
To "formulate an international action to stop the war on Gaza", Arab-Islamic Foreign Ministers represented by Saudi Arabia say the first stop will be China"
In other words they now recognize China's legitimity as the leading force for peace here. Meaning we effectively aren't in a US-led world order anymore, in fact they likely now see the US as a disrupter of order...
posted by adamvasco at 6:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
In other words they now recognize China's legitimity as the leading force for peace here. Meaning we effectively aren't in a US-led world order anymore, in fact they likely now see the US as a disrupter of order...
posted by adamvasco at 6:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, yeah. There are microscopic organisms on one of Jupiter's moons that are aware that the United States is utterly incapable of being impartial or unbiased in this particular crisis, even if elements of its government wanted to be.
posted by delfin at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by delfin at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
“‘Let Us Not Hurry to Our Doom,’” Seth Anziska, The New York Review of Books, 09 November 2023
The first Lebanon War helped lay the groundwork for Israel’s escalations of violence in Gaza. Who will heed its warnings?posted by ob1quixote at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
The Palestinian reply to Israel at the UN on 17 nov is well worth a listen. Measured, eloquent and devastating.
posted by adamvasco at 10:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 10:49 AM on November 19, 2023 [11 favorites]
I’m sure that Netanyahu will welcome China’s leadership on this and looks forward to testing out the techniques developed by the PRC in Tibet and Xinjiang for dealing with their own domestic terrorist issues and border conflicts.
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by interogative mood at 10:50 AM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why would he need to do that?
posted by thatwhichfalls at 2:34 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by thatwhichfalls at 2:34 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why would he need to do that?
Because whataboutism is a pretty standard rhetorical technique from some people when Israel is criticised.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:47 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
indeed.
apologies for the slight detour.
do not criticize China by solely using it's
past. it serves no one well.
that is foreign relations 101. that was taught to me in East Asian studies and it's exactly the problem that the United States faces in its diplomatic relations with China and China's diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.
In other words they now recognize China's legitimity as the leading force for peace here.
Adam, You always get to the most salient points, something I have valued for years.
the subject alone deserves its own post but in these times I think it would be very divisive at least here and that's my own opinion. I don't know, but I get a feeling if you and I both created a post if that's allowed, it would be pretty good. I mean I got nine tabs open dude.
let us begin with a OMG moment in Time.
that tweet is quite interesting..
'Saudi-Iran Deal: A Test Case of China’s Role as an International Mediator.
Date Published: June 23, 2023"
"China’s Saudi-Iran Deal'
"On March 10, Saudi Arabia and Iran announced the normalization of ties brokered by the People’s Republic of China (PRC), with a joint trilateral statement citing that an agreement has been reached between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
that was June, June about a works in progress for over a year I believe.
This from a UPenn undergrad.
One Step Forward, Two Steps Behind: The US Shift Away From the Middle East.
"US foreign policy is undergoing a shift in priorities, and global power dynamics are shifting with it. After a period of prolonged preoccupation with the Middle East, the U.S. has signaled a declining interest in the region."
December 21st 2021.
Strategic Reengagement in the Middle East
Toward a More Balanced and Long-Term Approach for U.S. Policy e-gads.
21 October 2019.
China’s great game in the Middle East
that one's from the European council on foreign relations using outmoded military/political/espionage terminology. this is my Dr Smith "Oh, the past moment."
"China still has a limited appetite for challenging the US-led security architecture in the Middle East or playing a significant role in regional politics."
'The Potential Inroads and Pitfalls of China’s Foray Into Middle East Diplomacy'
it's from Carnegie but it contains what I believe, from your excellent assertion, but premature conclusion to that shifting paradigm of polity.
"Historically, China has shied away from involvement in conflicts or taking a direct stand on thorny disputes. Rather than challenge U.S. hegemony and post–Cold War military predominance in the Middle East, China’s position as a secondary great power has allowed it to free ride on the American security umbrella without incurring the same security costs and without facing the same strategic dilemmas. This appears to be changing. By mediating the Saudi-Iranian normalization agreement, China is veering into new territory, expanding its regional footprint from economic exchange to negotiated conflict resolution."
"the same security costs and without facing the same strategic dilemmas."
So that's the real question isn't it, is China ready to use its military in place of US/allied military power in the region over the short and long-term.
my friendly 'giant operation' wasn't some lark, juxtapose the United States with China. if China sent a large International flotilla to relieve the people of Gaza who would stop them. The history of China and Iran exceed the United States culturally by thousands of years. suffice it to say, they have a long memory. whereas the United States is a very young country with a very short history but has acquired a very long memory.
As to Saudi Arabia and Israel, they have long cultural histories but their culture is going through a shift if not only the economic realm of depleting oil revenues over the long term for Saudi Arabia and increased tech manufacturing for Israel.
the potential and seemingly real blow back for the United States isn't just protests, that's not a real problem, it's if individuals took upon themselves to use terrorist acts within the United States. American people are grumpy and distracted and slightly terrorized already by his own domestic mass killings and if it isn't dealt with right away-yesterdayI believe it will cement the re-election of Donald Trump.
in which case I'm going to reread about the great dust Bowl and it just expand that geographically by a factor of 1000.
posted by clavdivs at 2:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
apologies for the slight detour.
do not criticize China by solely using it's
past. it serves no one well.
that is foreign relations 101. that was taught to me in East Asian studies and it's exactly the problem that the United States faces in its diplomatic relations with China and China's diplomatic relations with the rest of the world.
In other words they now recognize China's legitimity as the leading force for peace here.
Adam, You always get to the most salient points, something I have valued for years.
the subject alone deserves its own post but in these times I think it would be very divisive at least here and that's my own opinion. I don't know, but I get a feeling if you and I both created a post if that's allowed, it would be pretty good. I mean I got nine tabs open dude.
let us begin with a OMG moment in Time.
that tweet is quite interesting..
'Saudi-Iran Deal: A Test Case of China’s Role as an International Mediator.
Date Published: June 23, 2023"
"China’s Saudi-Iran Deal'
"On March 10, Saudi Arabia and Iran announced the normalization of ties brokered by the People’s Republic of China (PRC), with a joint trilateral statement citing that an agreement has been reached between the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Republic of Iran.
that was June, June about a works in progress for over a year I believe.
This from a UPenn undergrad.
One Step Forward, Two Steps Behind: The US Shift Away From the Middle East.
"US foreign policy is undergoing a shift in priorities, and global power dynamics are shifting with it. After a period of prolonged preoccupation with the Middle East, the U.S. has signaled a declining interest in the region."
December 21st 2021.
Strategic Reengagement in the Middle East
Toward a More Balanced and Long-Term Approach for U.S. Policy e-gads.
21 October 2019.
China’s great game in the Middle East
that one's from the European council on foreign relations using outmoded military/political/espionage terminology. this is my Dr Smith "Oh, the past moment."
"China still has a limited appetite for challenging the US-led security architecture in the Middle East or playing a significant role in regional politics."
'The Potential Inroads and Pitfalls of China’s Foray Into Middle East Diplomacy'
it's from Carnegie but it contains what I believe, from your excellent assertion, but premature conclusion to that shifting paradigm of polity.
"Historically, China has shied away from involvement in conflicts or taking a direct stand on thorny disputes. Rather than challenge U.S. hegemony and post–Cold War military predominance in the Middle East, China’s position as a secondary great power has allowed it to free ride on the American security umbrella without incurring the same security costs and without facing the same strategic dilemmas. This appears to be changing. By mediating the Saudi-Iranian normalization agreement, China is veering into new territory, expanding its regional footprint from economic exchange to negotiated conflict resolution."
"the same security costs and without facing the same strategic dilemmas."
So that's the real question isn't it, is China ready to use its military in place of US/allied military power in the region over the short and long-term.
my friendly 'giant operation' wasn't some lark, juxtapose the United States with China. if China sent a large International flotilla to relieve the people of Gaza who would stop them. The history of China and Iran exceed the United States culturally by thousands of years. suffice it to say, they have a long memory. whereas the United States is a very young country with a very short history but has acquired a very long memory.
As to Saudi Arabia and Israel, they have long cultural histories but their culture is going through a shift if not only the economic realm of depleting oil revenues over the long term for Saudi Arabia and increased tech manufacturing for Israel.
the potential and seemingly real blow back for the United States isn't just protests, that's not a real problem, it's if individuals took upon themselves to use terrorist acts within the United States. American people are grumpy and distracted and slightly terrorized already by his own domestic mass killings and if it isn't dealt with right away-yesterdayI believe it will cement the re-election of Donald Trump.
in which case I'm going to reread about the great dust Bowl and it just expand that geographically by a factor of 1000.
posted by clavdivs at 2:55 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
The president and top U.S. officials have instead revived talk of working toward a two-state solution for the governance of Gaza.
...
"We have delegated the solution of this problem to the United States," Borrell said. "But Europe must become more involved."
Curious to see how the very serious professionals in DC, Brussels and Strasbourg square the circle of turning this nightmare around into actually doing the two-state solution. Especially when the position of their ostensible allies seems to be things like Likud minister suggests world should promote ‘voluntary resettlement’ of Gazans and even Netyanhu has to tell his ministers to pipe down on nuclear war and doing a new Nakba.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 4:43 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
...
"We have delegated the solution of this problem to the United States," Borrell said. "But Europe must become more involved."
Curious to see how the very serious professionals in DC, Brussels and Strasbourg square the circle of turning this nightmare around into actually doing the two-state solution. Especially when the position of their ostensible allies seems to be things like Likud minister suggests world should promote ‘voluntary resettlement’ of Gazans and even Netyanhu has to tell his ministers to pipe down on nuclear war and doing a new Nakba.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 4:43 PM on November 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
The China news is a distraction but clearly it's playing well here by those disappointed by the US. Distraction imo because China has no real investments there, unlike countries along the maritime silk road or Africa, has no foreign policy that's interventionist unless it's literally within its geographical boundaries and even then it's just interminable rounds of playing chicken nor humanitarian-driven unless to play whataboutism with Western international diplomacy (like right now). But the news is also a joke because it's not like the OIC's hands are that tied. Their emergency meeting ended with a whimper because KSA (among others) objected to taking any serious diplomatic actions. Having this random coterie of ministers being led by KSA is the bow that caps of the joke.
posted by cendawanita at 4:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 4:46 PM on November 19, 2023 [2 favorites]
But the news is also a joke because it's not like the OIC's hands are that tied. Their emergency meeting ended with a whimper because KSA (among others) objected to taking any serious diplomatic actions.
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation? Not sure that's an acronym that most westerners are going to be familiar with. I had to look it up.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:48 PM on November 19, 2023
The Organization of Islamic Cooperation? Not sure that's an acronym that most westerners are going to be familiar with. I had to look it up.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 5:48 PM on November 19, 2023
I could that see about acronyms. I just happen to recall it from the Grand mosque attack in the context of historical beginnings.
I wouldn't really know about all that as being a joke. I do believe this specific topic deserves its own post as this aspect to the conflict could lead to a derail in this conversation. but the reverberations of the October 7th attacks onward have been felt worldwide which could seemingly distract from the event itself. seemingly. I believe this is a matter of high politics because who's going to whose house. and is it really much more than a "joke" it's like dragging the president of China to museum and then calling him a dictator and then hoping some sort of peace and understanding to break free all the while whataboutism is reporting the dissemination of Osama bin Ladens writings on tiktok at least the story here in America. thing about it, most American people don't give a damn about that and that's extremely dangerous. I personally don't need the Edwin r Murrow tour of opinion about middle Eastern conflict I generally read.
my main point is Adam pointed out a very interesting piece of information that reinforces the extremely rapid and dynamic paradigm shift in international politics.
perhaps, on a personal note, if I slightly disagree with Adams assertion doesn't mean he's wrong it doesn't mean I'm right. to me there's nothing personal about it and I hope Adam feels the same but too many times hs information and leds has hanged my mind on a variety of subjects. it's been my firm belief for over 20 years that if two strangers on the internet can come to a common ground and admit when they're wrong and not gloat when they're right, then there could be something to salvage from the morass. the exigency of this crisis severely overrides my own personal need to point out the obvious that people can get along even on the internet. but in the real world, I don't have the courage to call contacts I have in Israel or Lebanon. it would be a distraction it would be gauche.
but I do have the ability to drive 60 miles to watch a protest I just don't have the courage to participate in one side or the other. I believe this conflict will drastically change world events but this goes on the assumption that there's anything left to change.
I'm not willing to call this conflict of genocide going on some of the writings of eminent Holocaust scholars, yet.. I'm not willing to call it apartheid because I don't think it fits my legal and historical parameters that's my own personal belief. I do believe there's been a hybrid of ghettoization that's been taking place for over 45 to 50 years that needs to stop.
thank you and good night.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't really know about all that as being a joke. I do believe this specific topic deserves its own post as this aspect to the conflict could lead to a derail in this conversation. but the reverberations of the October 7th attacks onward have been felt worldwide which could seemingly distract from the event itself. seemingly. I believe this is a matter of high politics because who's going to whose house. and is it really much more than a "joke" it's like dragging the president of China to museum and then calling him a dictator and then hoping some sort of peace and understanding to break free all the while whataboutism is reporting the dissemination of Osama bin Ladens writings on tiktok at least the story here in America. thing about it, most American people don't give a damn about that and that's extremely dangerous. I personally don't need the Edwin r Murrow tour of opinion about middle Eastern conflict I generally read.
my main point is Adam pointed out a very interesting piece of information that reinforces the extremely rapid and dynamic paradigm shift in international politics.
perhaps, on a personal note, if I slightly disagree with Adams assertion doesn't mean he's wrong it doesn't mean I'm right. to me there's nothing personal about it and I hope Adam feels the same but too many times hs information and leds has hanged my mind on a variety of subjects. it's been my firm belief for over 20 years that if two strangers on the internet can come to a common ground and admit when they're wrong and not gloat when they're right, then there could be something to salvage from the morass. the exigency of this crisis severely overrides my own personal need to point out the obvious that people can get along even on the internet. but in the real world, I don't have the courage to call contacts I have in Israel or Lebanon. it would be a distraction it would be gauche.
but I do have the ability to drive 60 miles to watch a protest I just don't have the courage to participate in one side or the other. I believe this conflict will drastically change world events but this goes on the assumption that there's anything left to change.
I'm not willing to call this conflict of genocide going on some of the writings of eminent Holocaust scholars, yet.. I'm not willing to call it apartheid because I don't think it fits my legal and historical parameters that's my own personal belief. I do believe there's been a hybrid of ghettoization that's been taking place for over 45 to 50 years that needs to stop.
thank you and good night.
posted by clavdivs at 6:43 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
do not criticize China by solely using it's
past. it serves no one well.
China’s actions in Xinjiang are very much China’s present.
China isn’t taking a leadership role in this crisis. They are issuing statements and being supportive; but so far have taken few tangible steps. It seems to be the same policy they’ve followed for the last 30 years — expand their relationship with Israel while making non-committal but supportive statements about Palestine to Muslim countries to try to expand its influence and offer an alternative to the West.
Their actions so far wrt Israel-Hamas are very different from the work they did to broker the deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. My understanding is that in that case they are acting as a kind of third party arbitrator in resolving disputes. It was a much easier deal because Saudi and Iranian leaders wanted to make a deal.
China may decide to involve itself more deeply in this conflict, but I wouldn’t expect human rights or protection of civilians to be their top concern. They may even decide that continued war is best for China in terms of creating problems in the relationships with the US and Muslim countries.
posted by interogative mood at 8:57 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
past. it serves no one well.
China’s actions in Xinjiang are very much China’s present.
China isn’t taking a leadership role in this crisis. They are issuing statements and being supportive; but so far have taken few tangible steps. It seems to be the same policy they’ve followed for the last 30 years — expand their relationship with Israel while making non-committal but supportive statements about Palestine to Muslim countries to try to expand its influence and offer an alternative to the West.
Their actions so far wrt Israel-Hamas are very different from the work they did to broker the deal between Iran and Saudi Arabia. My understanding is that in that case they are acting as a kind of third party arbitrator in resolving disputes. It was a much easier deal because Saudi and Iranian leaders wanted to make a deal.
China may decide to involve itself more deeply in this conflict, but I wouldn’t expect human rights or protection of civilians to be their top concern. They may even decide that continued war is best for China in terms of creating problems in the relationships with the US and Muslim countries.
posted by interogative mood at 8:57 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't spell out OIC, because it was mentioned upthread before me. If anyone is to scan the thread to prove that was just me imagining things, then, all right then. In addition, I don't have it in me to say gently what I think about "Western" readers not knowing what that is, especially in this thread, so I won't.
re: joke - Arab-Islamic summit rejects justifying Gaza war as Israeli self-defence: Al Jazeera’s Hashem Ahelbarra said that without consensus among the summit attendees, its outcomes are useless.
“People do understand that the Israelis don’t really care about what is happening at this summit between the OIC and Arab League leaders. When you look at the communique you get a sense that the Arab and Muslim leaders do not have a mechanism to push a ceasefire and humanitarian corridor,” Ahelbarra said.
“This summit was just for the sake of a semblance of unity … in the Arab and Muslim world. It’s a watered-down statement. Not all Arab leaders decided to attend this summit because of the huge differences and divisions among the key players of the summit. That’s why they put this vaguely worded statement for public consumption,” he added.
Pair that with all the gossip on who disputed as per referred here: However, at least three countries -- including the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, which normalised ties with Israel in 2020 -- rejected the proposal, according to the diplomats who spoke on condition on anonymity.
My grain of salt is cultivated honestly but I understand if this isn't exactly shared here.
China is a distraction. Has anyone noticed we're no longer getting updated deaths figures now that al-Shifa Hospital has been "neutralized".
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
re: joke - Arab-Islamic summit rejects justifying Gaza war as Israeli self-defence: Al Jazeera’s Hashem Ahelbarra said that without consensus among the summit attendees, its outcomes are useless.
“People do understand that the Israelis don’t really care about what is happening at this summit between the OIC and Arab League leaders. When you look at the communique you get a sense that the Arab and Muslim leaders do not have a mechanism to push a ceasefire and humanitarian corridor,” Ahelbarra said.
“This summit was just for the sake of a semblance of unity … in the Arab and Muslim world. It’s a watered-down statement. Not all Arab leaders decided to attend this summit because of the huge differences and divisions among the key players of the summit. That’s why they put this vaguely worded statement for public consumption,” he added.
Pair that with all the gossip on who disputed as per referred here: However, at least three countries -- including the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, which normalised ties with Israel in 2020 -- rejected the proposal, according to the diplomats who spoke on condition on anonymity.
My grain of salt is cultivated honestly but I understand if this isn't exactly shared here.
China is a distraction. Has anyone noticed we're no longer getting updated deaths figures now that al-Shifa Hospital has been "neutralized".
posted by cendawanita at 9:04 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Right this moment I can't look for the documentary evidence, but rest assured Palestinians have long been cursing Arab leaders (and I along with them) for being part of this supposedly complex problem. Mind you I'm not (just) saying open the borders, accept the refugees, in part to recent regional history, but it's been an absolutely unsurprising sad state of affairs made even more horrific that for all the post-ww2 of rules-based international order, great powers geopolitics are too seductive for those with institutional ability to recreate their imperial right.
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on November 19, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 9:09 PM on November 19, 2023
To my point, per Haaretz's live updates:
Ben Samuels 5:15 PM
Nov 17, 2023
Law prohibiting U.S. military assistance to foreign forces that violate human rights not properly applied to Israel, former senator says
Patrick Leahy, the former U.S. senator who crafted the law prohibiting U.S. military assistance to foreign security forces that violate human rights, acknowledged that the law has not properly applied to Israel.
Leahy noted that in Israel's current war, “it appears to me that shooting civilians and targeting civilian infrastructure, when you can't prove it is being used by Hamas, would be a violation of human rights.”
“The United States is urging the Israelis to protect civilians, and, of course, the Israelis faced a terrible terrorist attack by Hamas, who murdered children in front of the parents then murdered the parents, which is in violation of every norm of international law," he continued.
“What is being done to apply the Leahy law now? I don’t know. I know past administrations have been too concerned to do it. It should apply to the Israeli Defense Forces, unless the administration, as many have, has waived it," Leahy added.
Then:
Reuters 2:24 AM
Nov 18, 2023
White House: Deliveries of fuel to Gaza should continue on a regular basis and in larger quantities
In the meantime:
Ben Samuels 10:47 PM
Nov 17, 2023
Congress cannot allow additional military aid to Israel while Gaza operation continues, Senator Bernie Sanders says.
Sen. Bernie Sanders warned Congress cannot permit additional military aid to Israel if it continues its current military campaign in Gaza.
"There is a horrific humanitarian disaster in Gaza. Israel must stop the bombing now and allow for massive amounts of humanitarian aid, including fuel, to reach those who need it. Congress cannot pass a supplemental spending bill that allows these actions to continue," he said.
Sanders, however, did not explicitly call for a cease-fire. His refusal to explicitly use that terminology has provoked significant outrage from his progressive base, who believe his calls for stopping the bombing do not send a clear enough message.
Randomly validated ground reporting because there's official response:
Yaniv Kubovich 11:43 PM
Nov 17, 2023
IDF suspends soldier filmed throwing stun grenade at West Bank mosque
The Israeli military said Friday that it has suspended a soldier who was documented throwing a stun grenade at the door of a mosque in the West Bank village of Budrus. A video of the incident was shared widely on social media. Describing the incident as “extremely serious,” the army added that the soldier had been suspended pending a full investigation. “Appropriate disciplinary action will be taken,” the statement promised.
Which I suppose makes it appropriate to share the following:
Jodi Rudoren (Forward): What Israel should actually be doing inside Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital
By helping to treat the wounded, the IDF has an opportunity to fulfill its aspiration of being the world’s most moral army.
To pair with: The Trouble with Displaced Anger :
In the wake of October 7, one development in public discourse that I do think genuinely shocked a large portion of the Jewish and Israeli community was just how intense the anger that quickly coalesced targeting Israel for its response to Hamas' massacre was. Jews and pro-Israel advocates are used to rallies and marches which assail the nation any time it engages in military action of any capacity in the Palestinian territories. But this felt different -- expelled ambassadors, "genocide" and "Nazi" allegations being thrown out with abandon, public doubling-down on the presentation of Israel as naught but a European settler imposition whose decisions could only be attributed to neo-colonialist bloodlust -- all occurring within days of Israel being the victim of one of the more sickening displays of mass-scale terrorist brutality that's been witnessed in recent years.
From the vantage of folks in sympathy with Israel, this was stunning: Israel endures what is probably the single worst terrorist atrocity in its history -- possibly the single bloodiest incident of anti-Jewish violence since the Holocaust -- and the result was a global community that within the space of days was breaking new records in levels of fury at Israel. What could explain this?
I have a hypothesis that can explain part of it. But before I share it, I want to return to a blog post I wrote in 2019 titled "The Trouble with Jewish Anger". Obviously, anger has always been a part of Jewish (and non-Jewish) political life, but in 2019 it seemed to be consuming our community in a way that felt genuinely different in kind rather than degree. What was motivating this anger?
In my post, I gave a long bulleted list of causes, most of which were various ways that non-Jews were mistreating Jews in fashions that obviously could and would legitimately prompt Jewish resentment. Included among these, of course, was ways in which left-wing discourses about Israel often were used to degrade, denigrate, and dismiss Jews both in Israel and in the diaspora. But at the end of my list, I added one final bullet point which I knew would be controversial but which I felt needed to be said:
And, I think, we're angry that the Israeli government has been racing off to the right, busily making some -- some -- arguments that once were outlandish now plausible, and putting us in increasingly difficult positions. We're angry that we've been basically powerless to stop this decay of liberal democracy in Israel, we're angry that a community and a place that we care deeply about seems not to care about us in return and is mutating into something unrecognizable to us, and we're displacing that anger a bit.
This, of course, was a very fraught thing to say. Nobody likes being challenged in their anger, and they like it still less when the argument is that their anger at others is actually displaced internal frustration. People could and did rail against this passage as outrageous -- as if the litany of perfectly good reasons for Jews to be angry weren't enough to explain why Jews are angry, as if legitimate Jewish anger over real antisemitism in any way could be said to be cut with displaced frustration over illiberalism and misconduct emanating from the Jewish state.
It was a controversial and fraught thing to say. Nonetheless, I stood by it then and stand by it now. There absolutely were many valid things for Jews to be angry about in terms of how others were treating Jews. But some -- some -- of the anger was displacement of our own frustrations, of being forced to reckon with certain things we'd been able to previously dismiss as implausible transforming into plausibilities. It's legitimately infuriating to be taunted as a Jew that the state you've held close to your heart since childhood is a fascist enterprise, and that legitimate fury is not quenched but exacerbated when the Israeli government undertakes actions that are legitimately labeled as fascist. It's "worst person you know makes legitimate point" on steroids. And one way of resolving that dissonance is to double-down on the anger; restoring a fractured unity where the torment we feel is solely caused by the tormenters we already knew; exploiting the fact that the tormenters we already knew are in fact giving us plenty to be legitimately angry about.
With all that in mind, we can return to the anger that's greeted Israel's campaign in Gaza following October 7. Once again, there is much one can legitimately be angry about. First and foremost, the surging death toll amongst the Palestinian civilian population is heart-wrenching. And even though the Israeli military may not be "targeting" civilians per se, it does not seem to be exhibiting much more than an attitude of cavalier indifference to the lives the Palestinian civilian population. Palestinian life is barely if at all part of the military calculus; if Israel isn't going out of its way to kill as many Palestinians as possible (the death toll, horrible as it is, would look completely different if that were the case), it certainly doesn't appear to be going much out of its way to avoid killing wherever it poses even a mild obstacle to a plausible military objective.
Beyond that, the unprecedented presence of the far-right in the Israeli government (partially but not wholly sidelined via the new "military cabinet"), some of whom can barely contain their thirst to see Palestinians expelled and/or murdered in both Gaza and the West Bank, makes certain possibilities that might previously have unthinkable into terrifyingly live possibilities. Indeed, the very brutality of the October 7 attacks makes the prospect of genuine retaliation in kind terrifyingly real -- everyone can at some level recognize how an atrocity of that magnitude generates a risk of an unstoppable cascade of recrimination. Mixing in the full scope of the October 7 attack together with an Israeli government which already was predisposed to dehumanizing Palestinians, and one has a cocktail that feels ripe for a wave of atrocities that make even the current displays feel tame in comparison.
None of that should be discounted. They are real and valid bases for anger (and fear, and a host of other emotions). But much as I said about Jewish anger in 2019, I will also assert that part -- part -- of the story is a bit of displacement. The attacks on October 7 made some arguments that, at least to pro-Palestinian activists, had seemed outlandish now plausible. Positions or narratives that previously could be easily dismissed as propaganda or apologias were shown in the most gruesome fashion imaginable to have more than a grain of truth behind them. And for persons whose personal identities were deeply bound up in denying the plausibility of such positions and narratives, the cold shock of October 7 represents a bona fide crisis.
Even while October 7 was still happening, I observed a tranche of commentators whose main reaction was "annoyance" that events were forcing them to empathize with Israelis. These weren't, to be clear, people who were celebrating or even justifying Hamas' massacres. They recognized the atrocities for what they were. But nonetheless, they clearly found it ... unpleasant ... to do so. These were people who treated Hamas like roguish committee of resistance fighters whose rhetoric sometimes maybe was a bit too florid for normie ears but were ultimately fighting for Palestinian liberation, who viewed PIJ rockets as glorified sparklers, who had long rolled their eyes at the notion that Israel and its powerful army could ever have true security interests vis-a-vis the Gaza Strip, who were confident that any contention of significant antisemitism amongst Palestine solidarity activists was the desperate defamation of Hasbarist shills trying to silence any and all forms of pro-Palestinian political advocacy.
Now, those who had comfortable held the above beliefs were being smacked in the face with the reality that some -- some -- of the things Israelis and Zionists had been saying that they had previously dismissed with a wave were, in fact, legitimate. The claims about Hamas' depravity were not just warmongering propaganda -- Hamas really was that brutal in terms of its approach to Israeli (and Palestinian!) life. The claims that Israel had legitimate security needs vis-a-vis Gaza were not just an excuse for endless repression -- there really were bad men on the other side of the fence who were actively plotting to murder Israeli men, women, and children. The claims about how "pro-Palestinian" protesters promoted and engaged in antisemitism were not just efforts to smear the left -- there really were non-trivial elements of that community who were making no bones about their glee at the prospect of dead and fleeing Jews, and who professed their fondest wish that they will soon see more. The worst people they knew were, it turns out, making legitimate points. And they were furious about it. They were furious that, in this moment, the most prominent flagbearers of "resistance," of "anti-Zionism", of "fighting for a free Palestine", or what have you, were in fact behaving exactly as their most hated enemies asserted they would.
How does one handle that fury, fury that is in the broadest sense inwardly directed? Again, one easy way of dealing with it is to sublimate it into all the other outward things one can (to reiterate once more) legitimately be angry at. The early statements holding Israel responsible for Hamas' massacres were a crude form of this -- they displace the anger that Hamas behaved the way that it did and transport it over to the more congenial subject of Israel. The seemingly endless upward spiral of rhetorical oneupsmanship in how to characterize Israel's Gaza campaign -- "genocide", "textbook genocide", "Nazism"; each term striving to outdo its predecessor in its expression of incandescent rage -- is another. Expanding the bubble of fury ever-outward is a way of making one particular (and particularly uncomfortable) iteration of anger pale in significance.
It turns out that, rather than acting to generate greater understanding or sympathy, paradoxically, rage and frustration at Hamas for its awful actions becomes a catalyst that intensifies the anger at Israel (anger that, again, is in large part rooted in Israel's own terrible conduct). Indeed, just as (at some level) Israel's increasingly indefensible forays into repressive fascism make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the Zionists that they hate the anti-Zionists, so too do Hamas' striking punctuation of murderous terror make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the anti-Zionists that they hate the Zionists. The (displaced) anger is the means of metabolizing an otherwise staggering threat to one's own identity and self-image. And how lucky for each that the prevalence of real Israeli injustices towards Palestinians; and real pro-Palestinian antisemitism towards Jews; provides such an available landing spot for that anger to be displaced to.
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 PM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ben Samuels 5:15 PM
Nov 17, 2023
Law prohibiting U.S. military assistance to foreign forces that violate human rights not properly applied to Israel, former senator says
Patrick Leahy, the former U.S. senator who crafted the law prohibiting U.S. military assistance to foreign security forces that violate human rights, acknowledged that the law has not properly applied to Israel.
Leahy noted that in Israel's current war, “it appears to me that shooting civilians and targeting civilian infrastructure, when you can't prove it is being used by Hamas, would be a violation of human rights.”
“The United States is urging the Israelis to protect civilians, and, of course, the Israelis faced a terrible terrorist attack by Hamas, who murdered children in front of the parents then murdered the parents, which is in violation of every norm of international law," he continued.
“What is being done to apply the Leahy law now? I don’t know. I know past administrations have been too concerned to do it. It should apply to the Israeli Defense Forces, unless the administration, as many have, has waived it," Leahy added.
Then:
Reuters 2:24 AM
Nov 18, 2023
White House: Deliveries of fuel to Gaza should continue on a regular basis and in larger quantities
In the meantime:
Ben Samuels 10:47 PM
Nov 17, 2023
Congress cannot allow additional military aid to Israel while Gaza operation continues, Senator Bernie Sanders says.
Sen. Bernie Sanders warned Congress cannot permit additional military aid to Israel if it continues its current military campaign in Gaza.
"There is a horrific humanitarian disaster in Gaza. Israel must stop the bombing now and allow for massive amounts of humanitarian aid, including fuel, to reach those who need it. Congress cannot pass a supplemental spending bill that allows these actions to continue," he said.
Sanders, however, did not explicitly call for a cease-fire. His refusal to explicitly use that terminology has provoked significant outrage from his progressive base, who believe his calls for stopping the bombing do not send a clear enough message.
Randomly validated ground reporting because there's official response:
Yaniv Kubovich 11:43 PM
Nov 17, 2023
IDF suspends soldier filmed throwing stun grenade at West Bank mosque
The Israeli military said Friday that it has suspended a soldier who was documented throwing a stun grenade at the door of a mosque in the West Bank village of Budrus. A video of the incident was shared widely on social media. Describing the incident as “extremely serious,” the army added that the soldier had been suspended pending a full investigation. “Appropriate disciplinary action will be taken,” the statement promised.
Which I suppose makes it appropriate to share the following:
Jodi Rudoren (Forward): What Israel should actually be doing inside Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital
By helping to treat the wounded, the IDF has an opportunity to fulfill its aspiration of being the world’s most moral army.
To pair with: The Trouble with Displaced Anger :
In the wake of October 7, one development in public discourse that I do think genuinely shocked a large portion of the Jewish and Israeli community was just how intense the anger that quickly coalesced targeting Israel for its response to Hamas' massacre was. Jews and pro-Israel advocates are used to rallies and marches which assail the nation any time it engages in military action of any capacity in the Palestinian territories. But this felt different -- expelled ambassadors, "genocide" and "Nazi" allegations being thrown out with abandon, public doubling-down on the presentation of Israel as naught but a European settler imposition whose decisions could only be attributed to neo-colonialist bloodlust -- all occurring within days of Israel being the victim of one of the more sickening displays of mass-scale terrorist brutality that's been witnessed in recent years.
From the vantage of folks in sympathy with Israel, this was stunning: Israel endures what is probably the single worst terrorist atrocity in its history -- possibly the single bloodiest incident of anti-Jewish violence since the Holocaust -- and the result was a global community that within the space of days was breaking new records in levels of fury at Israel. What could explain this?
I have a hypothesis that can explain part of it. But before I share it, I want to return to a blog post I wrote in 2019 titled "The Trouble with Jewish Anger". Obviously, anger has always been a part of Jewish (and non-Jewish) political life, but in 2019 it seemed to be consuming our community in a way that felt genuinely different in kind rather than degree. What was motivating this anger?
In my post, I gave a long bulleted list of causes, most of which were various ways that non-Jews were mistreating Jews in fashions that obviously could and would legitimately prompt Jewish resentment. Included among these, of course, was ways in which left-wing discourses about Israel often were used to degrade, denigrate, and dismiss Jews both in Israel and in the diaspora. But at the end of my list, I added one final bullet point which I knew would be controversial but which I felt needed to be said:
And, I think, we're angry that the Israeli government has been racing off to the right, busily making some -- some -- arguments that once were outlandish now plausible, and putting us in increasingly difficult positions. We're angry that we've been basically powerless to stop this decay of liberal democracy in Israel, we're angry that a community and a place that we care deeply about seems not to care about us in return and is mutating into something unrecognizable to us, and we're displacing that anger a bit.
This, of course, was a very fraught thing to say. Nobody likes being challenged in their anger, and they like it still less when the argument is that their anger at others is actually displaced internal frustration. People could and did rail against this passage as outrageous -- as if the litany of perfectly good reasons for Jews to be angry weren't enough to explain why Jews are angry, as if legitimate Jewish anger over real antisemitism in any way could be said to be cut with displaced frustration over illiberalism and misconduct emanating from the Jewish state.
It was a controversial and fraught thing to say. Nonetheless, I stood by it then and stand by it now. There absolutely were many valid things for Jews to be angry about in terms of how others were treating Jews. But some -- some -- of the anger was displacement of our own frustrations, of being forced to reckon with certain things we'd been able to previously dismiss as implausible transforming into plausibilities. It's legitimately infuriating to be taunted as a Jew that the state you've held close to your heart since childhood is a fascist enterprise, and that legitimate fury is not quenched but exacerbated when the Israeli government undertakes actions that are legitimately labeled as fascist. It's "worst person you know makes legitimate point" on steroids. And one way of resolving that dissonance is to double-down on the anger; restoring a fractured unity where the torment we feel is solely caused by the tormenters we already knew; exploiting the fact that the tormenters we already knew are in fact giving us plenty to be legitimately angry about.
With all that in mind, we can return to the anger that's greeted Israel's campaign in Gaza following October 7. Once again, there is much one can legitimately be angry about. First and foremost, the surging death toll amongst the Palestinian civilian population is heart-wrenching. And even though the Israeli military may not be "targeting" civilians per se, it does not seem to be exhibiting much more than an attitude of cavalier indifference to the lives the Palestinian civilian population. Palestinian life is barely if at all part of the military calculus; if Israel isn't going out of its way to kill as many Palestinians as possible (the death toll, horrible as it is, would look completely different if that were the case), it certainly doesn't appear to be going much out of its way to avoid killing wherever it poses even a mild obstacle to a plausible military objective.
Beyond that, the unprecedented presence of the far-right in the Israeli government (partially but not wholly sidelined via the new "military cabinet"), some of whom can barely contain their thirst to see Palestinians expelled and/or murdered in both Gaza and the West Bank, makes certain possibilities that might previously have unthinkable into terrifyingly live possibilities. Indeed, the very brutality of the October 7 attacks makes the prospect of genuine retaliation in kind terrifyingly real -- everyone can at some level recognize how an atrocity of that magnitude generates a risk of an unstoppable cascade of recrimination. Mixing in the full scope of the October 7 attack together with an Israeli government which already was predisposed to dehumanizing Palestinians, and one has a cocktail that feels ripe for a wave of atrocities that make even the current displays feel tame in comparison.
None of that should be discounted. They are real and valid bases for anger (and fear, and a host of other emotions). But much as I said about Jewish anger in 2019, I will also assert that part -- part -- of the story is a bit of displacement. The attacks on October 7 made some arguments that, at least to pro-Palestinian activists, had seemed outlandish now plausible. Positions or narratives that previously could be easily dismissed as propaganda or apologias were shown in the most gruesome fashion imaginable to have more than a grain of truth behind them. And for persons whose personal identities were deeply bound up in denying the plausibility of such positions and narratives, the cold shock of October 7 represents a bona fide crisis.
Even while October 7 was still happening, I observed a tranche of commentators whose main reaction was "annoyance" that events were forcing them to empathize with Israelis. These weren't, to be clear, people who were celebrating or even justifying Hamas' massacres. They recognized the atrocities for what they were. But nonetheless, they clearly found it ... unpleasant ... to do so. These were people who treated Hamas like roguish committee of resistance fighters whose rhetoric sometimes maybe was a bit too florid for normie ears but were ultimately fighting for Palestinian liberation, who viewed PIJ rockets as glorified sparklers, who had long rolled their eyes at the notion that Israel and its powerful army could ever have true security interests vis-a-vis the Gaza Strip, who were confident that any contention of significant antisemitism amongst Palestine solidarity activists was the desperate defamation of Hasbarist shills trying to silence any and all forms of pro-Palestinian political advocacy.
Now, those who had comfortable held the above beliefs were being smacked in the face with the reality that some -- some -- of the things Israelis and Zionists had been saying that they had previously dismissed with a wave were, in fact, legitimate. The claims about Hamas' depravity were not just warmongering propaganda -- Hamas really was that brutal in terms of its approach to Israeli (and Palestinian!) life. The claims that Israel had legitimate security needs vis-a-vis Gaza were not just an excuse for endless repression -- there really were bad men on the other side of the fence who were actively plotting to murder Israeli men, women, and children. The claims about how "pro-Palestinian" protesters promoted and engaged in antisemitism were not just efforts to smear the left -- there really were non-trivial elements of that community who were making no bones about their glee at the prospect of dead and fleeing Jews, and who professed their fondest wish that they will soon see more. The worst people they knew were, it turns out, making legitimate points. And they were furious about it. They were furious that, in this moment, the most prominent flagbearers of "resistance," of "anti-Zionism", of "fighting for a free Palestine", or what have you, were in fact behaving exactly as their most hated enemies asserted they would.
How does one handle that fury, fury that is in the broadest sense inwardly directed? Again, one easy way of dealing with it is to sublimate it into all the other outward things one can (to reiterate once more) legitimately be angry at. The early statements holding Israel responsible for Hamas' massacres were a crude form of this -- they displace the anger that Hamas behaved the way that it did and transport it over to the more congenial subject of Israel. The seemingly endless upward spiral of rhetorical oneupsmanship in how to characterize Israel's Gaza campaign -- "genocide", "textbook genocide", "Nazism"; each term striving to outdo its predecessor in its expression of incandescent rage -- is another. Expanding the bubble of fury ever-outward is a way of making one particular (and particularly uncomfortable) iteration of anger pale in significance.
It turns out that, rather than acting to generate greater understanding or sympathy, paradoxically, rage and frustration at Hamas for its awful actions becomes a catalyst that intensifies the anger at Israel (anger that, again, is in large part rooted in Israel's own terrible conduct). Indeed, just as (at some level) Israel's increasingly indefensible forays into repressive fascism make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the Zionists that they hate the anti-Zionists, so too do Hamas' striking punctuation of murderous terror make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the anti-Zionists that they hate the Zionists. The (displaced) anger is the means of metabolizing an otherwise staggering threat to one's own identity and self-image. And how lucky for each that the prevalence of real Israeli injustices towards Palestinians; and real pro-Palestinian antisemitism towards Jews; provides such an available landing spot for that anger to be displaced to.
posted by cendawanita at 9:30 PM on November 19, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel endures what is probably the single worst terrorist atrocity in its history -- possibly the single bloodiest incident of anti-Jewish violence since the Holocaust -- and the result was a global community that within the space of days was breaking new records in levels of fury at Israel. What could explain this?
I know this is a rhetorical device, but I cannot help but be inwardly shouting at my screen: the even larger civilian humanitarian crises Israel directly caused and continue to effect in response. "I got punched, how can you be mad at me?" isn't a legit question if you're still kicking the guy who punched you after you've beaten him to a pulp.
posted by Dysk at 9:41 PM on November 19, 2023 [19 favorites]
I know this is a rhetorical device, but I cannot help but be inwardly shouting at my screen: the even larger civilian humanitarian crises Israel directly caused and continue to effect in response. "I got punched, how can you be mad at me?" isn't a legit question if you're still kicking the guy who punched you after you've beaten him to a pulp.
posted by Dysk at 9:41 PM on November 19, 2023 [19 favorites]
Biden op-ed over the weekend (Wapo gift link via fedi)
posted by cendawanita at 11:18 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 11:18 PM on November 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
It turns out that, rather than acting to generate greater understanding or sympathy, paradoxically, rage and frustration at Hamas for its awful actions becomes a catalyst that intensifies the anger at Israel (anger that, again, is in large part rooted in Israel's own terrible conduct). Indeed, just as (at some level) Israel's increasingly indefensible forays into repressive fascism make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the Zionists that they hate the anti-Zionists, so too do Hamas' striking punctuation of murderous terror make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the anti-Zionists that they hate the Zionists. The (displaced) anger is the means of metabolizing an otherwise staggering threat to one's own identity and self-image. And how lucky for each that the prevalence of real Israeli injustices towards Palestinians; and real pro-Palestinian antisemitism towards Jews; provides such an available landing spot for that anger to be displaced to.
In all honesty, I'm totally stumped on what the writer is trying to say in this paragraph or perhaps in the essay more broadly. It feels like a lot of words without a lot of actual meaning. He's talking around something but I have no idea what it is. There is another similarly wordy and opaque paragraph about how talking about the genocide in Gaza is "rhetorical oneupsmanship" so I'm going to assume it's something I don't agree with.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:48 AM on November 20, 2023
In all honesty, I'm totally stumped on what the writer is trying to say in this paragraph or perhaps in the essay more broadly. It feels like a lot of words without a lot of actual meaning. He's talking around something but I have no idea what it is. There is another similarly wordy and opaque paragraph about how talking about the genocide in Gaza is "rhetorical oneupsmanship" so I'm going to assume it's something I don't agree with.
posted by armadillo1224 at 1:48 AM on November 20, 2023
I read it as a Malay Malaysian, so mind you that is very much my lens. I do understand a lot of people here tends to have a more straightforward relationship with race relations and race relations as it relates to power. On the other hand, much like Hindu Indians especially back in India, or Singaporean Chinese in Singapore, the mental model is a lot more complicated in the absence of not being able to apply the more straightforward formula of understanding racism and oppression. I'm sympathetic to the piece's intention of wanting to present balance as though Israeli occupation is the same as Palestinian resistence in order not to lose their core audience, even if I don't think it's at all the same.
The psychology though, I don't find it opaque, but that's the difference of being critical of Hindutva without having to give up being Indian or Islamofascism without having to give up Islam. In the West, whiteness as a project is so thoroughly intertwined with colonialism and imperialism that it's a given if a person is racist towards a minority that is a replication of white supremacy at work. So it's a 'given' an individual works to being less 'white', for whatever that means. But just like Asian anti-blackness or Black antisemitism, the condition of one's oppression doesn't deny the capacity to also be unjust, but the problem is... what if a significant part of your identity is rooted in oppression, which has developed a heuristic shorthand that confuses the right to access features that guarantees liberty as being morally right in any period?
I have found this to be the core of the failure in imagination whenever talking about solidarity amongst western 'minorities' comes to topics when they cannot access the confused position of being morally right by virtue of being the most challenged to access their rights. That disconnect is being described here as displaced anger but I just call it the same dynamics that informs 'white women tears'.
I said above my lived experience makes me find it not an opaque argument - how do you think we have been living in postcolonial realities all this time? The failure of imagination I mentioned comes from western minorities being still very much a westerner, with the same thought processes of their fellow metropoles. Because I *have* seen Muslims casually being racist towards Africans and Chinese people even as Chinese people casually dismiss Southeast Asian natives as backwards, with each other them being able to point to actual instances of prejudice to validate their opinion.
posted by cendawanita at 3:17 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
The psychology though, I don't find it opaque, but that's the difference of being critical of Hindutva without having to give up being Indian or Islamofascism without having to give up Islam. In the West, whiteness as a project is so thoroughly intertwined with colonialism and imperialism that it's a given if a person is racist towards a minority that is a replication of white supremacy at work. So it's a 'given' an individual works to being less 'white', for whatever that means. But just like Asian anti-blackness or Black antisemitism, the condition of one's oppression doesn't deny the capacity to also be unjust, but the problem is... what if a significant part of your identity is rooted in oppression, which has developed a heuristic shorthand that confuses the right to access features that guarantees liberty as being morally right in any period?
I have found this to be the core of the failure in imagination whenever talking about solidarity amongst western 'minorities' comes to topics when they cannot access the confused position of being morally right by virtue of being the most challenged to access their rights. That disconnect is being described here as displaced anger but I just call it the same dynamics that informs 'white women tears'.
I said above my lived experience makes me find it not an opaque argument - how do you think we have been living in postcolonial realities all this time? The failure of imagination I mentioned comes from western minorities being still very much a westerner, with the same thought processes of their fellow metropoles. Because I *have* seen Muslims casually being racist towards Africans and Chinese people even as Chinese people casually dismiss Southeast Asian natives as backwards, with each other them being able to point to actual instances of prejudice to validate their opinion.
posted by cendawanita at 3:17 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
In all honesty, I'm totally stumped on what the writer is trying to say in this paragraph or perhaps in the essay more broadly. It feels like a lot of words without a lot of actual meaning. He's talking around something but I have no idea what it is.
It's a confused attempt to talk about what Micheal Herzfeld calls "disemia" in the "Cultural Intimacy" of "social poetics" in the nation-state (and in his earlier ethnography).
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:08 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a confused attempt to talk about what Micheal Herzfeld calls "disemia" in the "Cultural Intimacy" of "social poetics" in the nation-state (and in his earlier ethnography).
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:08 AM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
being the world’s most moral army.
Wait.
What the actual fuck? I'd literally never heard that one before, and I had to google to make sure it wasn't some weird and obscure bit of nonsense promoted by people like Hagee. But nope, apparently I missed that Israel really does like to claim the IDF is the world's most moral military.
Yeah, no. It is utterly sickening to know that Israel wants to pretend that they can be supremely moral while sending snipers to murder children and bragging about torturing captives.
As for the left and Isarel and anger, there seems to be this belief among many defenders of Israel, both Jewish and gentile, that bringing up Judaism's claims to the land and a religious history of feeling that Israel is special makes the European invasion of Palestine in the 1940's and the subsiquent massacre of the indigenous people and theft of their land not merely justified but good.
In reality, outside of some Jews and a lot of right wing Christofascists, everyone thinks that makes it worse and it makes us less, not more, sympathetic to Israel's cause and problems and more angry towards Israel and bitter that we're in the position of reluctantly supporting the moral correctness of a nation founded for such terrible reasons to continue existing.
It would be morally wrong, and a crime against humanity, for Israel to be destoryed DESPITE its religious origin. Not because of it.
posted by sotonohito at 7:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wait.
What the actual fuck? I'd literally never heard that one before, and I had to google to make sure it wasn't some weird and obscure bit of nonsense promoted by people like Hagee. But nope, apparently I missed that Israel really does like to claim the IDF is the world's most moral military.
Yeah, no. It is utterly sickening to know that Israel wants to pretend that they can be supremely moral while sending snipers to murder children and bragging about torturing captives.
As for the left and Isarel and anger, there seems to be this belief among many defenders of Israel, both Jewish and gentile, that bringing up Judaism's claims to the land and a religious history of feeling that Israel is special makes the European invasion of Palestine in the 1940's and the subsiquent massacre of the indigenous people and theft of their land not merely justified but good.
In reality, outside of some Jews and a lot of right wing Christofascists, everyone thinks that makes it worse and it makes us less, not more, sympathetic to Israel's cause and problems and more angry towards Israel and bitter that we're in the position of reluctantly supporting the moral correctness of a nation founded for such terrible reasons to continue existing.
It would be morally wrong, and a crime against humanity, for Israel to be destoryed DESPITE its religious origin. Not because of it.
posted by sotonohito at 7:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think we can take it as a given that, in any context, if you loudly proclaim you are the world's most moral army, you're absolutely doing a tonne of war crimes.
posted by ssg at 8:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by ssg at 8:44 AM on November 20, 2023 [12 favorites]
The Israeli government is accusing WHO of being complicit in the bombing of hospitals, and calls for the organization to lose their protected status. And that's already on top of essentially declaring all foreign news services they disagree with enemy combatants, which has resulted in the deaths of dozens of journalists and their families.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:46 AM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
i've been googling, but i can't just seem to find the answer - how many airplanes does the WHO have, again?
posted by pyramid termite at 11:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by pyramid termite at 11:24 AM on November 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
accusing WHO of being complicit in the bombing of hospitals, and calls for the organization to lose their protected status
"evacuate the hospital, we're going to be blowing shit up there." fuck that guy. like we asked the triage nurse a while back and they said: "first priority is fucking caring for sick and injured people. doesn't fucking matter who else is here, even if they are, we're doing hospital shit. if that means he lost the game of murder tag, whatever, i guess human shields are effective. anyway this "human shield" has and ungodly amount of extra healthcare shit to do because of him, and when we're done with that we'll see about letting him use the building for the fucking genocide flex and photo ops with empty cardboard boxes of nonexistent medical supplies labelled in english for the american audience but not in any language anyone in need of medical supplies uses routinely in this facility. but right now we have hospital shit to do in this hospital. i set the priorities around here; he can fuck off."
posted by busted_crayons at 12:01 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
"evacuate the hospital, we're going to be blowing shit up there." fuck that guy. like we asked the triage nurse a while back and they said: "first priority is fucking caring for sick and injured people. doesn't fucking matter who else is here, even if they are, we're doing hospital shit. if that means he lost the game of murder tag, whatever, i guess human shields are effective. anyway this "human shield" has and ungodly amount of extra healthcare shit to do because of him, and when we're done with that we'll see about letting him use the building for the fucking genocide flex and photo ops with empty cardboard boxes of nonexistent medical supplies labelled in english for the american audience but not in any language anyone in need of medical supplies uses routinely in this facility. but right now we have hospital shit to do in this hospital. i set the priorities around here; he can fuck off."
posted by busted_crayons at 12:01 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
"In all honesty, I'm totally stumped on what the writer is trying to say in this paragraph or perhaps in the essay more broadly. It feels like a lot of words without a lot of actual meaning. He's talking around something but I have no idea what it is.
That's funny, because I found that essay to be one of the most thoughtful and perceptive things written about the conflict since October 7. I also read the 2019 piece, which itself is a very good analysis of the frustration among left and liberal Jews and Israelis.
Left/liberal Jews have been dealing with inchoate frustration and anger for years because we have watched the worst slanders against Israel come true: Israel is not yet an apartheid state (Jim Crow would be a better description), but Likud is working on making it one. His 2019 piece notes how some of the anger that left/liberal Jews feel is partly in reaction to very real antisemitism that has been coming out in the left (if you aren't aware, please go learn about it), but also anger at the Israeli government for apparently trying to fulfill the worst antisemitic tropes. (Thus the title, "displaced anger").
David Schraub is pointing out that now the same thing has happened to those fighting for Palestinian rights: after years of claiming that "From the River to the Sea" was not a call for the extermination of Jews in Israel, Hamas just made really clear that they don't just want Palestinian rights, they want Palestinian rights AND the massacre of Jews. After years of absolutely righteous anger at Israeli policies, suddenly they find themselves on the "same side" as people who shot up a music festival, murdered families and paraded the naked bodies of dead women to celebratory cheers. But instead of finding sympathy, a lot of people doubled down and said, "But Israel also murders babies when it indiscriminately bombs Gaza! Settlers were already engaged in ethnic cleansing and attacks on civilians in the West Bank!"
Which is all true. There are dead babies on both sides - and a desire for ethnic cleansing on both sides. There is more than enough evil to crush absolutely everyone in the entire region.
Straub is giving more credit to those who have praised Hamas as "freedom fighters" than I might by arguing that they have done so out of displaced anger (which really has been caused by Hamas), rather than just writing them off as antisemitic or bloodthirsty.
Re-read this section:
In general: thank you, cendawanita, for bringing these links and your own thoughtful, humane points into this thread.
posted by jb at 12:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
That's funny, because I found that essay to be one of the most thoughtful and perceptive things written about the conflict since October 7. I also read the 2019 piece, which itself is a very good analysis of the frustration among left and liberal Jews and Israelis.
Left/liberal Jews have been dealing with inchoate frustration and anger for years because we have watched the worst slanders against Israel come true: Israel is not yet an apartheid state (Jim Crow would be a better description), but Likud is working on making it one. His 2019 piece notes how some of the anger that left/liberal Jews feel is partly in reaction to very real antisemitism that has been coming out in the left (if you aren't aware, please go learn about it), but also anger at the Israeli government for apparently trying to fulfill the worst antisemitic tropes. (Thus the title, "displaced anger").
David Schraub is pointing out that now the same thing has happened to those fighting for Palestinian rights: after years of claiming that "From the River to the Sea" was not a call for the extermination of Jews in Israel, Hamas just made really clear that they don't just want Palestinian rights, they want Palestinian rights AND the massacre of Jews. After years of absolutely righteous anger at Israeli policies, suddenly they find themselves on the "same side" as people who shot up a music festival, murdered families and paraded the naked bodies of dead women to celebratory cheers. But instead of finding sympathy, a lot of people doubled down and said, "But Israel also murders babies when it indiscriminately bombs Gaza! Settlers were already engaged in ethnic cleansing and attacks on civilians in the West Bank!"
Which is all true. There are dead babies on both sides - and a desire for ethnic cleansing on both sides. There is more than enough evil to crush absolutely everyone in the entire region.
Straub is giving more credit to those who have praised Hamas as "freedom fighters" than I might by arguing that they have done so out of displaced anger (which really has been caused by Hamas), rather than just writing them off as antisemitic or bloodthirsty.
Re-read this section:
Indeed, just as (at some level) Israel's increasingly indefensible forays into repressive fascism make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the Zionists that they hate the anti-Zionists, so too do Hamas' striking punctuation of murderous terror make it more essential to the mental wellbeing of the anti-Zionists that they hate the Zionists. The (displaced) anger is the means of metabolizing an otherwise staggering threat to one's own identity and self-image. And how lucky for each that the prevalence of real Israeli injustices towards Palestinians; and real pro-Palestinian antisemitism towards Jews; provides such an available landing spot for that anger to be displaced to.He's arguing that both Zionists and anti-Zionists are both solely focused on the evil of the "other side" because to acknowledge the evil on their own side is too difficult - it's a "staggering threat to one's own identity and self-image", and it's true.
In general: thank you, cendawanita, for bringing these links and your own thoughtful, humane points into this thread.
posted by jb at 12:42 PM on November 20, 2023 [15 favorites]
As for the left and Isarel and anger, there seems to be this belief among many defenders of Israel, both Jewish and gentile, that bringing up Judaism's claims to the land and a religious history of feeling that Israel is special makes the European invasion of Palestine in the 1940's and the subsiquent massacre of the indigenous people and theft of their land not merely justified but good.
Putting my cards on the table: I am Jewish by choice and religion, but not by ethnicity. I have lots of Jewish friends. But I'm also not a Zionist and have no special connection to Israel (unlike most of my Jewish friends, who have siblings, parents and/or grandparents and other close family there). I don't believe in nationhood - and I question anyone's innate claim to any land anywhere.
That said: your description of how Israel was founded is incomplete and inaccurate. The European "invasion" was, of course, the arrival of refugees from Europe who had been ethnically cleansed from their previous homes. However, just under half of the Jews in Israel have ancestry from Europe (and this includes all of the immigrants from the 19th century through to today). The other half of Israeli Jews "are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia" - none of which are usually considered European (except parts of Turkey?) (citation). A great many of those Jews were themselves expelled from their previous homes in Africa, the Middle East and Asia; others fled persecution and discrimination.
The argument about whether Israel is a colonial state or not is a complicated one - I can see points for or against. The actions of the settlers in the West Bank feel super colonial to me.
But there are also Jews who have lived in the land of Israel since time immemorial; the Romans expelled them from Jerusalem, but many didn't go that far. The Jerusalem Talmud (aka the Palestinian Talmud) was compiled in the Galilee region. Other Jews moved only as far as Baghdad (where they compiled an even bigger Talmud) or Aleppo - where the Aleppo Codex was housed in the Central Synagogue in Aleppo until that was burned down in the anti-Jewish riots in 1947 (that is, a year before the founding of Israel). Arguing that Syrian Jews aren't just as indigenous to the Levant as Palestinians, or that Iraqi, Turkish, Egyptian, Tunisian, Ethiopian, Iranian, etc., etc., Jews are a "European Invasion" is just silly.
But on a larger point: regardless of who their ancestors were, there are now millions of Israelis who are themselves a community and who have no other place in the world that they have a right to live. Any just solution for peace must take into account the safety and human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.
I'm someone who doesn't believe in ANYONE'S inalienable rights to land. But I believe in everyone's right to a safe home - which is why I denounce Hamas and denounce Likud and the settlers. I have placed and targeted my anger firmly at both, and my sorrow for everyone caught between.
posted by jb at 1:18 PM on November 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
Putting my cards on the table: I am Jewish by choice and religion, but not by ethnicity. I have lots of Jewish friends. But I'm also not a Zionist and have no special connection to Israel (unlike most of my Jewish friends, who have siblings, parents and/or grandparents and other close family there). I don't believe in nationhood - and I question anyone's innate claim to any land anywhere.
That said: your description of how Israel was founded is incomplete and inaccurate. The European "invasion" was, of course, the arrival of refugees from Europe who had been ethnically cleansed from their previous homes. However, just under half of the Jews in Israel have ancestry from Europe (and this includes all of the immigrants from the 19th century through to today). The other half of Israeli Jews "are descended from Jews who made aliyah from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey, and Central Asia" - none of which are usually considered European (except parts of Turkey?) (citation). A great many of those Jews were themselves expelled from their previous homes in Africa, the Middle East and Asia; others fled persecution and discrimination.
The argument about whether Israel is a colonial state or not is a complicated one - I can see points for or against. The actions of the settlers in the West Bank feel super colonial to me.
But there are also Jews who have lived in the land of Israel since time immemorial; the Romans expelled them from Jerusalem, but many didn't go that far. The Jerusalem Talmud (aka the Palestinian Talmud) was compiled in the Galilee region. Other Jews moved only as far as Baghdad (where they compiled an even bigger Talmud) or Aleppo - where the Aleppo Codex was housed in the Central Synagogue in Aleppo until that was burned down in the anti-Jewish riots in 1947 (that is, a year before the founding of Israel). Arguing that Syrian Jews aren't just as indigenous to the Levant as Palestinians, or that Iraqi, Turkish, Egyptian, Tunisian, Ethiopian, Iranian, etc., etc., Jews are a "European Invasion" is just silly.
But on a larger point: regardless of who their ancestors were, there are now millions of Israelis who are themselves a community and who have no other place in the world that they have a right to live. Any just solution for peace must take into account the safety and human rights of both Palestinians and Israelis.
I'm someone who doesn't believe in ANYONE'S inalienable rights to land. But I believe in everyone's right to a safe home - which is why I denounce Hamas and denounce Likud and the settlers. I have placed and targeted my anger firmly at both, and my sorrow for everyone caught between.
posted by jb at 1:18 PM on November 20, 2023 [14 favorites]
(and yes, I am fully aware of the Nakba and ethnic cleansing of Arabs that took place during the Israeli war for independence. Ethnic cleansing and genocide of Jews didn't justify that, before or after.)
posted by jb at 1:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jb at 1:34 PM on November 20, 2023 [7 favorites]
Re: arguing Jewish indigeneity or nativeness - this is an extremely good example of western minorities' failure of imagination because the perceived notion of native status makes claims of authenticity to stand in for the right to rule with no other consideration. Anti-Zionists point to modern definition that you can see supported in concept in the UN where it's a relational identity in opposition to colonization, Zionists point to the more anthropological and historical definition even if it's fuzzy at the edges. Again, it is self-absorbed with assigning whiteness in order to "hack" who's more right. Jewish people having a historical tie to the land is not inimical to Israel being a western project. *waves in Malaysian - you should hear what Suharto had to say about our nation which isn't completely untrue and plus the fact during the Konfrontasi the white countries of the British Commonwealth absolutely did provide military support, up to having "spitfires on standby in NZ"* *points also to the big Taiwan-PRC fight especially post-ww2 in claiming the UN seat*
Palestinian people deserve human rights. End the occupation. Israel has had too many decades riding European guilt + anti-Arab racism + Orientalism to act in ways that other countries could not get away with at least in mealy-mouthed condemnation (see: Azerbaijan as a recent example), because the failure in imagination has elicited the notion that both the Holocaust and the status of Israel is exceptional when the global South is littered with ethnostates that in the years since WW2 have proven cursed in one way or another due to the dehumanization inherent to making the very idea work.
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
Palestinian people deserve human rights. End the occupation. Israel has had too many decades riding European guilt + anti-Arab racism + Orientalism to act in ways that other countries could not get away with at least in mealy-mouthed condemnation (see: Azerbaijan as a recent example), because the failure in imagination has elicited the notion that both the Holocaust and the status of Israel is exceptional when the global South is littered with ethnostates that in the years since WW2 have proven cursed in one way or another due to the dehumanization inherent to making the very idea work.
posted by cendawanita at 5:11 PM on November 20, 2023 [9 favorites]
being the world’s most moral army.
Well she's saying the IDF has done good work in the past for its enemies, and should continue doing that now, she's holding them to account to their aspirations. I think that's laudable.
The point she brings up is where the IDF ran a humanitarian program where they would secretly take wounded Syrian civilians across the border for treatment and quietly return them afterwards. NYT article, archive post.
The context to that is that Syria still considers Israel an enemy and they are still in a state of war. Syria is consumed by a brutal civil war in which Israel is not a participant, with 100,000 deaths at the time the article was written in 2013. The humanitarian treatment must be done in secret, because Syrians can get in trouble in their authoritarian state for having crossed the border into enemy territory.
The whole moral army thing (I thought) has been long played out years ago: it's not like there's a points system where you get +5 points for every unharmed civilian and -20 points for every one you kill. The same unresolvable arguments appear, some people will criticize the IDF for the 20,000 or so civilian deaths in Gaza over the past decade, and the IDF will point at the 377,000 deaths in Yemen, 400,000 deaths in Sudan, 350,000 deaths in Nigeria, around 400,000 deaths in Ethiopia, as a sign that the IDF operates one of the most disciplined militaries in the region.
The IDF is also almost totally defensive in nature, compared to Russia / China / NATO / US which have a huge focus on force projection and ability to threaten their neighbours. Compare the Merkava tank to almost any other tank in the world - tanks are doctrinally used to penetrate deeply behind enemy lines to exploit their rear, and to rapidly advance and take territory where there is a gap in defense. The Merkava is designed with a big emphasis on crew protection - and sacrifices almost every other attribute to achieve that. So it's extremely heavy and slow, only really suited to defending Israel's immediate borders, and purists wouldn't even call it a tank.
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well she's saying the IDF has done good work in the past for its enemies, and should continue doing that now, she's holding them to account to their aspirations. I think that's laudable.
The point she brings up is where the IDF ran a humanitarian program where they would secretly take wounded Syrian civilians across the border for treatment and quietly return them afterwards. NYT article, archive post.
The context to that is that Syria still considers Israel an enemy and they are still in a state of war. Syria is consumed by a brutal civil war in which Israel is not a participant, with 100,000 deaths at the time the article was written in 2013. The humanitarian treatment must be done in secret, because Syrians can get in trouble in their authoritarian state for having crossed the border into enemy territory.
The whole moral army thing (I thought) has been long played out years ago: it's not like there's a points system where you get +5 points for every unharmed civilian and -20 points for every one you kill. The same unresolvable arguments appear, some people will criticize the IDF for the 20,000 or so civilian deaths in Gaza over the past decade, and the IDF will point at the 377,000 deaths in Yemen, 400,000 deaths in Sudan, 350,000 deaths in Nigeria, around 400,000 deaths in Ethiopia, as a sign that the IDF operates one of the most disciplined militaries in the region.
The IDF is also almost totally defensive in nature, compared to Russia / China / NATO / US which have a huge focus on force projection and ability to threaten their neighbours. Compare the Merkava tank to almost any other tank in the world - tanks are doctrinally used to penetrate deeply behind enemy lines to exploit their rear, and to rapidly advance and take territory where there is a gap in defense. The Merkava is designed with a big emphasis on crew protection - and sacrifices almost every other attribute to achieve that. So it's extremely heavy and slow, only really suited to defending Israel's immediate borders, and purists wouldn't even call it a tank.
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 PM on November 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
xdvesper : The same unresolvable arguments appear, some people will criticize the IDF for the 20,000 or so civilian deaths in Gaza over the past decade, and the IDF will point at the 377,000 deaths in Yemen, 400,000 deaths in Sudan, 350,000 deaths in Nigeria, around 400,000 deaths in Ethiopia, as a sign that the IDF operates one of the most disciplined militaries in the region.
Correct my math if I'm wrong, but as a percentage of population isn't the Gaza number the same-ish as or greater than all of those other numbers, at about 1% of the population?
Gaza is about as death-soaked as Yemen - puts things in an unpleasant perspective, doesn't it?
(Nigeria and Ethiopia appear to be the ones that are lower, at 0.16% and 0.3%, respectively.)
posted by clawsoon at 5:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Correct my math if I'm wrong, but as a percentage of population isn't the Gaza number the same-ish as or greater than all of those other numbers, at about 1% of the population?
Gaza is about as death-soaked as Yemen - puts things in an unpleasant perspective, doesn't it?
(Nigeria and Ethiopia appear to be the ones that are lower, at 0.16% and 0.3%, respectively.)
posted by clawsoon at 5:40 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
purists wouldn't even call it a tank.
What are you talking about?
Maybe its IFV and other derivatives based on the same chassis, at best.
The only case for the Merkava not being a "main battle tank" would be because it's heavier and more capable than its competitors, which have to deal with more varied terrain. Merkava's design in based on operating in theater, only.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2023
What are you talking about?
Maybe its IFV and other derivatives based on the same chassis, at best.
The only case for the Merkava not being a "main battle tank" would be because it's heavier and more capable than its competitors, which have to deal with more varied terrain. Merkava's design in based on operating in theater, only.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:00 PM on November 20, 2023
Israel has had too many decades riding European guilt + anti-Arab racism + Orientalism to act in ways that other countries could not get away with at least in mealy-mouthed condemnation (see: Azerbaijan as a recent example),
Maybe it's western blindness, but I'm confused: in Canada, Israel has received far more criticism than Azerbaijan or anywhere else. In fact, of all the ethnostates (which also include 1/2 of Europe), it's the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned.
Like I said: I'm not a Zionist and I would prefer to see a pluralistic Israel (since it now exists). But if there is any "special treatment", it is that Israel is held out for special condemnation.
When was the last time someone complained about how second or third generation Italians living in Canada still have a by-blood right to vote in Italian elections? Or that people can live in some European countries for generations and still be "guest workers" without a right to citizenship? Ironically, I've heard specifically of descendents of Italian immigrants in Switzerland being denied access to citizenship due to not being Swiss. There aren't weekly protests in my Canadian city about Darfur - and when there were protests against the brutal Eritrean regime, a whole bunch of other people dismissed it as "old world nonsense".
Anyways: I'm not here to defend Israel, just pointing out that the founding of Israel has as much to do with events in the Middle East as in Europe, and half of the Jewish population (and more than half of the population as a whole) are not and have never been European - and those whose ancestors were, aren't European any more.
It's a messy, complicated situation - and no power in the entire region has clean hands. Making this history into a simple "settler vs indigenous" situation is based on misplaced assumptions (and guilt) from people living in seriously colonial contexts, like Canada, the US, Australia.
posted by jb at 9:03 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Maybe it's western blindness, but I'm confused: in Canada, Israel has received far more criticism than Azerbaijan or anywhere else. In fact, of all the ethnostates (which also include 1/2 of Europe), it's the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned.
Like I said: I'm not a Zionist and I would prefer to see a pluralistic Israel (since it now exists). But if there is any "special treatment", it is that Israel is held out for special condemnation.
When was the last time someone complained about how second or third generation Italians living in Canada still have a by-blood right to vote in Italian elections? Or that people can live in some European countries for generations and still be "guest workers" without a right to citizenship? Ironically, I've heard specifically of descendents of Italian immigrants in Switzerland being denied access to citizenship due to not being Swiss. There aren't weekly protests in my Canadian city about Darfur - and when there were protests against the brutal Eritrean regime, a whole bunch of other people dismissed it as "old world nonsense".
Anyways: I'm not here to defend Israel, just pointing out that the founding of Israel has as much to do with events in the Middle East as in Europe, and half of the Jewish population (and more than half of the population as a whole) are not and have never been European - and those whose ancestors were, aren't European any more.
It's a messy, complicated situation - and no power in the entire region has clean hands. Making this history into a simple "settler vs indigenous" situation is based on misplaced assumptions (and guilt) from people living in seriously colonial contexts, like Canada, the US, Australia.
posted by jb at 9:03 PM on November 20, 2023 [4 favorites]
Exactly - for your context. The other thing the piece didn't think to grapple with is how the matter of Israel is seen in the global south. I see it of a piece such that while you have observed more criticisms I see it as a consequence of western self-regard (who cares about Azerbaijan? Eritria?) that sees other places as other places ("so what can you expect, really" vs "IDF is the most moral army" which plays on the same register as American "I love the troops and here's why they should be held to a higher standard") because that's taking place at the same time as Israel like Australia can be accepted to perform in Eurovision (why?). Israel is seen as part of the West and the West values itself to a higher standard (of I don't know what). Could there be institutional anti-Semitism at play? I wouldn't be surprised.
At the same time here's the other strand: Meanwhile elsewhere the critiques are happening both from the sense of familiarity (literally have this piece from Dawn, a Pakistani publication, about Zionism and Muslim Nationalism, open in my tab right now) and a sense of political calculation (to describe it coldly), in that if the West cannot even police its own ingroup when it comes to rules-based international order, then what hope is there left for other injustices? In that regard, Palestinian liberty has become a focal point through which other movements understand themselves.
The central premise is that normatively there is recognition that Israel is of the West (eta: just like Singapore, just like Japan). Ironically as well part of this greater civic pushback is related to displacement caused by western interventionism elsewhere: both directly like the Iraq wars, indirectly like the Nakba, even more indirectly like recognizing ethnostates as a postcolonial solution like the Partition - all that led to a more diverse western polity that had a more global south understanding of the issue rather than a western one who is trapped in the postcolonial "sorry we invaded and occupied and extracted resources from you, here's some land" paradigm which depends very much on who has a stronger land claim that is based on cultural affinity as much as anything else (Ukraine's big success to be frank, and I applaud them for it).
When was the last time someone complained about how second or third generation Italians living in Canada still have a by-blood right to vote in Italian elections?
That reminds me of India and how it treats its diaspora. The Overseas Citizen can live and conduct business in India including property ownership but they're not allowed to vote. It's become an issue that apparently that can be revoked if there's evidence of being too critical of Modi. Even to take this back to October 7th, apparently a number of victims were not given full burial rites because they weren't considered fully Jewish, apparently an Israeli issue with its Russian Jewish population.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
At the same time here's the other strand: Meanwhile elsewhere the critiques are happening both from the sense of familiarity (literally have this piece from Dawn, a Pakistani publication, about Zionism and Muslim Nationalism, open in my tab right now) and a sense of political calculation (to describe it coldly), in that if the West cannot even police its own ingroup when it comes to rules-based international order, then what hope is there left for other injustices? In that regard, Palestinian liberty has become a focal point through which other movements understand themselves.
The central premise is that normatively there is recognition that Israel is of the West (eta: just like Singapore, just like Japan). Ironically as well part of this greater civic pushback is related to displacement caused by western interventionism elsewhere: both directly like the Iraq wars, indirectly like the Nakba, even more indirectly like recognizing ethnostates as a postcolonial solution like the Partition - all that led to a more diverse western polity that had a more global south understanding of the issue rather than a western one who is trapped in the postcolonial "sorry we invaded and occupied and extracted resources from you, here's some land" paradigm which depends very much on who has a stronger land claim that is based on cultural affinity as much as anything else (Ukraine's big success to be frank, and I applaud them for it).
When was the last time someone complained about how second or third generation Italians living in Canada still have a by-blood right to vote in Italian elections?
That reminds me of India and how it treats its diaspora. The Overseas Citizen can live and conduct business in India including property ownership but they're not allowed to vote. It's become an issue that apparently that can be revoked if there's evidence of being too critical of Modi. Even to take this back to October 7th, apparently a number of victims were not given full burial rites because they weren't considered fully Jewish, apparently an Israeli issue with its Russian Jewish population.
posted by cendawanita at 9:37 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
To add as well, one more facet about global south critiques coming from a place of familiarity, which dovetails with Western self-regard which is the other side of the coin where the other face is Western superiority: people in and from India, China, the Emirati states, KSA, Myanmar, Malaysia, Singapore, Pakistan, Rwanda, Serbia etc have familiarity and practice in dealing with "displaced anger" for decades now. But it feels a damn sight easier to be critical of Muslim Nationalism, Chinese Supremacy, Russian Interventionism, Serbian Nationalism, etc in the West. Why so? Valid critiques of what's happening with the Uyghurs comport well with what the West thinks of China. And so, sheltered from repercussions, able to earn a living, having comparative freedom to at least find a place to host all these criticisms, "we" notice when this protection falls apart, as we've been seeing in various American student campuses and Germany in general for the last month and a half. In the meantime our mental fortitude from having to deal with that pain is rendered irrelevant in this discussion. Once again, western pain is the consequential one. Meanwhile, Palestinians are being actively harmed, in both occupied territories, across all religions as well as culture (am catching up with what's happening at the Armenian Quarter).
posted by cendawanita at 9:55 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:55 PM on November 20, 2023 [6 favorites]
Raphael Mimoun (fedi link):
This war is showing (again) that Palestinians have to audition for our empathy.
But in the past week, I've had difficult conversations with relatives who say "4,000 dead children, but can we trust these numbers? They come from Hamas".
So I want to address it heads on:
1/15
[...]
First, why is the only source of information we have on the number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza the Ministry of Health, run by the Hamas government?
Israel prevents foreign journalists and humanitarian workers from entering Gaza. For those who are already in Gaza the sheer level of violence and destruction makes it incredibly hard to document the number of people who are killed and injured. Lack of electricity and communication outages makes the task even harder.
3/15
[...] We would never ask the Israelis who survived or lost family members in the massacres of October 7th to prove their pain, their fear, and show evidence for the death. The evidence was all around. Yet,we find ourselves asking Palestinians to show evidence for every dead child, for every injured woman, for every maimed elderly—even though the evidence is all around.
It's as if, like many have said before, Palestinians must audition for our empathy. Our humanity toward them is conditional.
15/15
posted by cendawanita at 10:09 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
This war is showing (again) that Palestinians have to audition for our empathy.
But in the past week, I've had difficult conversations with relatives who say "4,000 dead children, but can we trust these numbers? They come from Hamas".
So I want to address it heads on:
1/15
[...]
First, why is the only source of information we have on the number of Palestinian deaths in Gaza the Ministry of Health, run by the Hamas government?
Israel prevents foreign journalists and humanitarian workers from entering Gaza. For those who are already in Gaza the sheer level of violence and destruction makes it incredibly hard to document the number of people who are killed and injured. Lack of electricity and communication outages makes the task even harder.
3/15
[...] We would never ask the Israelis who survived or lost family members in the massacres of October 7th to prove their pain, their fear, and show evidence for the death. The evidence was all around. Yet,we find ourselves asking Palestinians to show evidence for every dead child, for every injured woman, for every maimed elderly—even though the evidence is all around.
It's as if, like many have said before, Palestinians must audition for our empathy. Our humanity toward them is conditional.
15/15
posted by cendawanita at 10:09 PM on November 20, 2023 [5 favorites]
Left/liberal Jews have been dealing with inchoate frustration and anger for years because we have watched the worst slanders against Israel come true: Israel is not yet an apartheid state (Jim Crow would be a better description)What on earth makes you think the Jim Crow south wasn't an apartheid state?
David Schraub is pointing out that now the same thing has happened to those fighting for Palestinian rights: after years of claiming that "From the River to the Sea" was not a call for the extermination of Jews in Israel, Hamas just made really clear that they don't just want Palestinian rights, they want Palestinian rights AND the massacre of Jews. After years of absolutely righteous anger at Israeli policies, suddenly they find themselves on the "same side" as people who shot up a music festival, murdered families and paraded the naked bodies of dead women to celebratory cheers. But instead of finding sympathy, a lot of people doubled down and said, "But Israel also murders babies when it indiscriminately bombs Gaza! Settlers were already engaged in ethnic cleansing and attacks on civilians in the West Bank!"There are some anti-Zionists on twitter who are pro-Hamas and I imagine they had a pretty bad day when the scope of Hamas' war crimes on 10/7 became clear.
But they're such a fringe minority group that I don't think they had any real effect on the larger anti-Zionist response to the IDF murdering babies via carpet bombing Gaza and the murderous settler rampages on West Bank.
posted by zymil at 1:06 AM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Maybe it's western blindness, but I'm confused: in Canada, Israel has received far more criticism than Azerbaijan or anywhere else. In fact, of all the ethnostates (which also include 1/2 of Europe), it's the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned.
If you look at actual diplomatic relationships between governments rather than what individuals with little impact on things say, it's a different story. Canada has a history of absolutely carrying water for Israel in the UN, for example. When people say that western countries support Israel, we mean the practical and meaningful effects of governments and international relations, not the irrelevant discourse of disempowered lefties.
posted by Dysk at 1:08 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
If you look at actual diplomatic relationships between governments rather than what individuals with little impact on things say, it's a different story. Canada has a history of absolutely carrying water for Israel in the UN, for example. When people say that western countries support Israel, we mean the practical and meaningful effects of governments and international relations, not the irrelevant discourse of disempowered lefties.
posted by Dysk at 1:08 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
jb: Maybe it's western blindness, but I'm confused: in Canada, Israel has received far more criticism than Azerbaijan or anywhere else. In fact, of all the ethnostates (which also include 1/2 of Europe), it's the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned.
Israel is the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned, but...
...it's also the only one whose crimes I'm expected to have understanding for in leftist spaces. A discussion on Metafilter about the Rohingya genocide or residential schools in Canada or Latin American junta disappearances or the treatment of LGBTQ+ people in Saudi Arabia doesn't draw hundreds of comments effectively saying "but you need to consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor."
posted by clawsoon at 4:20 AM on November 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Israel is the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned, but...
...it's also the only one whose crimes I'm expected to have understanding for in leftist spaces. A discussion on Metafilter about the Rohingya genocide or residential schools in Canada or Latin American junta disappearances or the treatment of LGBTQ+ people in Saudi Arabia doesn't draw hundreds of comments effectively saying "but you need to consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor."
posted by clawsoon at 4:20 AM on November 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Gaza is about as death-soaked as Yemen - puts things in an unpleasant perspective, doesn't it?
(Nigeria and Ethiopia appear to be the ones that are lower, at 0.16% and 0.3%, respectively.)
That would be precisely how the IDF justify their "unfair" treatment in the media, the level of coverage those conflicts get relative to theirs.
Anyway, my point was that it's impossible to make a comparison that satisfies everyone. Why would you use percentages rather than absolute numbers? Does that mean it's ok to kill 10,000 Indians because their population is so large? Or if you want to use percentages why don't you count total Muslims (1.8 billions) vs total Jews (16 million) to make it look better the other way? There's even people I see counting children killed per day versus other conflicts, as another weird metric. There's even maps showing how the Arab League's greed is so great that they attacked Israel and stole their land in 1948 despite the Arabs having 99% more land than the Jews to begin with, and their stated goal is that Jews should never have their own state. They are all equally dumb comparisons from someone's point of view.
As for the tank derail, it's just a fascinating branch of nerdery - I guess some humans get obsessed about classifying things, like train enthusiasts. Who gets to define what a tank is, anyway? Layman's definition is probably that it needs to be armored, rotating turret, direct fire cannon, not used to transport infantry. Then you go over all the different types of fighting vehicles and look at the design / doctrinal variations and try to draw a line, ok, up to this level of deviation it's still a tank, but past this point it's not a tank.
Some people are more strict about the definition and say they don't think Merkava should be tank, and some are very loose and say the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is a tank. There's a meme about, well, how armored does it need to be? Highly mobile? Heavy weapon capable of killing other tanks? Then a Toyota Hilux with an ATGM is a tank too. (referring to the Toyota War which pitted Toyotas against Russian T-55 tanks, the Toyotas won) Anyway, it's just an interesting exercise for the reader, no harm meant.
posted by xdvesper at 4:34 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Nigeria and Ethiopia appear to be the ones that are lower, at 0.16% and 0.3%, respectively.)
That would be precisely how the IDF justify their "unfair" treatment in the media, the level of coverage those conflicts get relative to theirs.
Anyway, my point was that it's impossible to make a comparison that satisfies everyone. Why would you use percentages rather than absolute numbers? Does that mean it's ok to kill 10,000 Indians because their population is so large? Or if you want to use percentages why don't you count total Muslims (1.8 billions) vs total Jews (16 million) to make it look better the other way? There's even people I see counting children killed per day versus other conflicts, as another weird metric. There's even maps showing how the Arab League's greed is so great that they attacked Israel and stole their land in 1948 despite the Arabs having 99% more land than the Jews to begin with, and their stated goal is that Jews should never have their own state. They are all equally dumb comparisons from someone's point of view.
As for the tank derail, it's just a fascinating branch of nerdery - I guess some humans get obsessed about classifying things, like train enthusiasts. Who gets to define what a tank is, anyway? Layman's definition is probably that it needs to be armored, rotating turret, direct fire cannon, not used to transport infantry. Then you go over all the different types of fighting vehicles and look at the design / doctrinal variations and try to draw a line, ok, up to this level of deviation it's still a tank, but past this point it's not a tank.
Some people are more strict about the definition and say they don't think Merkava should be tank, and some are very loose and say the Bradley Fighting Vehicle is a tank. There's a meme about, well, how armored does it need to be? Highly mobile? Heavy weapon capable of killing other tanks? Then a Toyota Hilux with an ATGM is a tank too. (referring to the Toyota War which pitted Toyotas against Russian T-55 tanks, the Toyotas won) Anyway, it's just an interesting exercise for the reader, no harm meant.
posted by xdvesper at 4:34 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like Jb said, I too found the article posted by Cendawanita on displaced anger one of the most helpful and perceptive things I've read recently so thanks!
*waves in Malaysian - you should hear what Suharto had to say about our nation which isn't completely untrue and plus the fact during the Konfrontasi the white countries of the British Commonwealth absolutely did provide military support, up to having "spitfires on standby in NZ"*
Malaysian here too, and I'm sometimes stunned by the parallels. The independence and birth of a new nation is a terribly dangerous time.
The British made Malaya, Borneo and Singapore independent, then supported the formation of Malaysia in 1963. This was opposed our neighbour, Indonesia. Which, like the Arab League in 1967, was supported by arms from the Soviet Union.
Indonesia actually used those arms to wrest control of New Guinea from the Dutch at the time, and while Suharto's intentions for Malaysia can't be known, it's assumed it was part of his grand aspiration to absorb Malaysia into an all-encompassing Greater Indonesia. They even joined forces with Philippines who themselves claimed ownership of North Borneo. At the very least, they wanted to disrupt the formation of what they saw as a British puppet state in their region.
It wasn't just having Spitfires on standby.
Indonesia committed 15,000 - 30,000 soldiers to the conflict. On the Malaysian side were 14,000 British, 3,500 Australian, and about 1,500 New Zealander soldiers, with the remaining 8,000 local forces from Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. Malaysia only had 4 ships at the time, while Britain, Australia and New Zealand committed 74 ships.
In the end, 140 of the British forces were killed, 23 Australian, 12 New Zealander, and 64 of the local forces (Malaysia, Singapore). What staggers me is that Australians, New Zealanders and the British were willing to sacrifice their lives to defend my country, dying thousands of miles from their home. It is deeply humbling.
I could imagine a counterfactual where the Commonwealth didn't intervene, and Indonesia, Philippines, and Thailand stepped in to carve out parts of Malaysia for themselves.
Just like Jordan annexed and absorbed West Bank and Jerusalem for itself, and Egypt occupied Gaza.
Indonesia had a plausible claim to Sarawak, Philippines had a plausible claim to Sabah, Thailand had a plausible claim to the Northern Malay states (dating back hundreds of years) and that would have just left maybe Singapore and a couple of Southern Peninsula states...
Well the British didn't intervene in Israel because the Jews had well pissed off the British before they left, which just shows how it important it is to have good relations with your colonizers...
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
*waves in Malaysian - you should hear what Suharto had to say about our nation which isn't completely untrue and plus the fact during the Konfrontasi the white countries of the British Commonwealth absolutely did provide military support, up to having "spitfires on standby in NZ"*
Malaysian here too, and I'm sometimes stunned by the parallels. The independence and birth of a new nation is a terribly dangerous time.
The British made Malaya, Borneo and Singapore independent, then supported the formation of Malaysia in 1963. This was opposed our neighbour, Indonesia. Which, like the Arab League in 1967, was supported by arms from the Soviet Union.
Indonesia actually used those arms to wrest control of New Guinea from the Dutch at the time, and while Suharto's intentions for Malaysia can't be known, it's assumed it was part of his grand aspiration to absorb Malaysia into an all-encompassing Greater Indonesia. They even joined forces with Philippines who themselves claimed ownership of North Borneo. At the very least, they wanted to disrupt the formation of what they saw as a British puppet state in their region.
It wasn't just having Spitfires on standby.
Indonesia committed 15,000 - 30,000 soldiers to the conflict. On the Malaysian side were 14,000 British, 3,500 Australian, and about 1,500 New Zealander soldiers, with the remaining 8,000 local forces from Malaysia, Singapore and Brunei. Malaysia only had 4 ships at the time, while Britain, Australia and New Zealand committed 74 ships.
In the end, 140 of the British forces were killed, 23 Australian, 12 New Zealander, and 64 of the local forces (Malaysia, Singapore). What staggers me is that Australians, New Zealanders and the British were willing to sacrifice their lives to defend my country, dying thousands of miles from their home. It is deeply humbling.
I could imagine a counterfactual where the Commonwealth didn't intervene, and Indonesia, Philippines, and Thailand stepped in to carve out parts of Malaysia for themselves.
Just like Jordan annexed and absorbed West Bank and Jerusalem for itself, and Egypt occupied Gaza.
Indonesia had a plausible claim to Sarawak, Philippines had a plausible claim to Sabah, Thailand had a plausible claim to the Northern Malay states (dating back hundreds of years) and that would have just left maybe Singapore and a couple of Southern Peninsula states...
Well the British didn't intervene in Israel because the Jews had well pissed off the British before they left, which just shows how it important it is to have good relations with your colonizers...
posted by xdvesper at 5:28 AM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Like I said: I'm not a Zionist and I would prefer to see a pluralistic Israel (since it now exists). But if there is any "special treatment", it is that Israel is held out for special condemnation.
Israel has the unwavering and nearly unlimited financial and military backing of the most powerful states on the planet, has nukes, is currently administering the longest running occupation in the world, and has just bombed the fuck out of 5000+ children, in about a month.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:30 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel has the unwavering and nearly unlimited financial and military backing of the most powerful states on the planet, has nukes, is currently administering the longest running occupation in the world, and has just bombed the fuck out of 5000+ children, in about a month.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:30 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Some people are more strict about the definition and say they don't think Merkava should be tank....Bradley....Toyota
The idea that the Merkava isn't a tank is not like these other arguments about IFVs and technicals, or reporters calling anything with tracks and/or a mounted gun a "tank."
It's more like it's so great that you can't call it a tank, it's a supertank! It has all the armor, and a big smoothbore gun with advanced fire control! Only Israel cares this much about protecting its tankers!
It should be circular-filed with the "most moral army" crap. It's a tank and it can be as heavy as it is because it is not designed to go much of anywhere.
Israel makes IFVs and auxillary vehicles using the same platform, and those do draw the classification debates, because most forces would not use a MBT platform for those things. But, again, the force isn't going very far.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:38 AM on November 21, 2023
The idea that the Merkava isn't a tank is not like these other arguments about IFVs and technicals, or reporters calling anything with tracks and/or a mounted gun a "tank."
It's more like it's so great that you can't call it a tank, it's a supertank! It has all the armor, and a big smoothbore gun with advanced fire control! Only Israel cares this much about protecting its tankers!
It should be circular-filed with the "most moral army" crap. It's a tank and it can be as heavy as it is because it is not designed to go much of anywhere.
Israel makes IFVs and auxillary vehicles using the same platform, and those do draw the classification debates, because most forces would not use a MBT platform for those things. But, again, the force isn't going very far.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:38 AM on November 21, 2023
Per Jeremy Scahill's tweet: The head of the aid organization that runs the Indonesian Hospital in Gaza, now under sustained assault by Israeli forces, wrote a letter to Pres. Biden:
"You have destroyed the international rules of the game, insulted the authority of the UN, torn apart the sense of justice, and hurt human values, and tarnished the face of human civilization."
The letter.
Ok fine I'll give him this one, PM Anwar Ibrahim addresses Biden directly during an APEC session, and he referred to the time when Biden in his post at the time, stood up against Anwar's arrest:
@Ashok Swain: Malaysian Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim tells American President Joe Biden on his face - You ask us to condemn Russia in the Ukraine, but stay muted on the Israel’s atrocities of killing women and babies in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 6:29 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
"You have destroyed the international rules of the game, insulted the authority of the UN, torn apart the sense of justice, and hurt human values, and tarnished the face of human civilization."
The letter.
Ok fine I'll give him this one, PM Anwar Ibrahim addresses Biden directly during an APEC session, and he referred to the time when Biden in his post at the time, stood up against Anwar's arrest:
@Ashok Swain: Malaysian Prime Minister Anwar Ibrahim tells American President Joe Biden on his face - You ask us to condemn Russia in the Ukraine, but stay muted on the Israel’s atrocities of killing women and babies in Gaza.
posted by cendawanita at 6:29 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's western blindness, but I'm confused: in Canada, Israel has received far more criticism than Azerbaijan or anywhere else. In fact, of all the ethnostates (which also include 1/2 of Europe), it's the only one that regularly has its legitimacy questioned.
I think the wording you have chosen is interesting. Maybe how Dysk put it, and others, is enough of a response. I think you are conflating "western blindness" (this is a rhetorical turn of phrase, we could say "western attitudes" perhaps) with generally anyone questioning Israel's legitimacy?
Speaking only from Canada, basically: what Dysk said. Growing up, the narratives in my early education and post secondary were not about "questioning Israel's legitimacy." When you phrase it that way, we come close to that recurring issue: how do we criticize state actions in this case, and not be accused of antisemitism? Because the way you phrased things seems to lead in that direction. Surely we are past that?
If anything, I grew up with the notion that Israel was unique in its ability to fight off all-comers during a precarious history. We wanted friendship with Israel, this solitary democracy in a part of the world "rife with Islamic extremists." Israel represented some kind of salve and sanctuary in response to horrific recent events that all Canadians learned about from an early age. We did not learn the word 'Nakba' I can assure you. The criticism grows from observing, as an adult with eyes and a brain, the people leading in Israel's name seem to be deranged. The actions they order are resulting in many thousands of deaths of innocents. Do I blame USians for Trump? No, but part of me can't believe that the US is still dealing with his presence, and the real possibility that he could be president again. What is wrong with us?
"What is wrong with us?" is something we all need to ask.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think the wording you have chosen is interesting. Maybe how Dysk put it, and others, is enough of a response. I think you are conflating "western blindness" (this is a rhetorical turn of phrase, we could say "western attitudes" perhaps) with generally anyone questioning Israel's legitimacy?
Speaking only from Canada, basically: what Dysk said. Growing up, the narratives in my early education and post secondary were not about "questioning Israel's legitimacy." When you phrase it that way, we come close to that recurring issue: how do we criticize state actions in this case, and not be accused of antisemitism? Because the way you phrased things seems to lead in that direction. Surely we are past that?
If anything, I grew up with the notion that Israel was unique in its ability to fight off all-comers during a precarious history. We wanted friendship with Israel, this solitary democracy in a part of the world "rife with Islamic extremists." Israel represented some kind of salve and sanctuary in response to horrific recent events that all Canadians learned about from an early age. We did not learn the word 'Nakba' I can assure you. The criticism grows from observing, as an adult with eyes and a brain, the people leading in Israel's name seem to be deranged. The actions they order are resulting in many thousands of deaths of innocents. Do I blame USians for Trump? No, but part of me can't believe that the US is still dealing with his presence, and the real possibility that he could be president again. What is wrong with us?
"What is wrong with us?" is something we all need to ask.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:56 AM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Biden's official Twitter account just tweeted:
"Both Putin and Hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map.
America cannot, and will not, let that happen. For our own national security interests—and for the good of the entire world."
With a link to Biden's (gated) op-ed in the WaPo. Seems like the administrations line is that Putin:Ukraine::Hamas:Israel.
I don't think this will stick, this seems like really bad and stupid politics.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:45 AM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Both Putin and Hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map.
America cannot, and will not, let that happen. For our own national security interests—and for the good of the entire world."
With a link to Biden's (gated) op-ed in the WaPo. Seems like the administrations line is that Putin:Ukraine::Hamas:Israel.
I don't think this will stick, this seems like really bad and stupid politics.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:45 AM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
Israel is as legitimate, whatever that might mean, as any other nation that exists including my own.
Israel, like many nations, was founded by foreigners invading a place, killing the locals, stealing land, and generally behaving badly.
This history is a factor not because it means Israel is "illegitimate" but only because it means the current state of Israel has obligations to the people who were oppressed during its founding and who are continuing to be oppressed today.
Religious belief is utterly irrelevant to anything material. No religious belief entitles a person to invade a place, murder people, and steal land. That includes Judaism and any religious beliefs about a relationship between Jews and that particular bit of geography.
I support the continued existence of Israel. My moral philosophy leaves me no choice, the alternative would be even worse.
Israel is an ethnostate, either actually theocratic or at lest religiously supremacist, committed to opposing human rights and enshrining bigotry, and of course it's actively committing genocide.
All of which are reasons why I don't want to support Israel's continued existence.
But I do. Becauase the alternative is worse.
It makes me mad at Israel though, and even more mad at people who try to tell me that their religion makes it all OK.
posted by sotonohito at 8:48 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel, like many nations, was founded by foreigners invading a place, killing the locals, stealing land, and generally behaving badly.
This history is a factor not because it means Israel is "illegitimate" but only because it means the current state of Israel has obligations to the people who were oppressed during its founding and who are continuing to be oppressed today.
Religious belief is utterly irrelevant to anything material. No religious belief entitles a person to invade a place, murder people, and steal land. That includes Judaism and any religious beliefs about a relationship between Jews and that particular bit of geography.
I support the continued existence of Israel. My moral philosophy leaves me no choice, the alternative would be even worse.
Israel is an ethnostate, either actually theocratic or at lest religiously supremacist, committed to opposing human rights and enshrining bigotry, and of course it's actively committing genocide.
All of which are reasons why I don't want to support Israel's continued existence.
But I do. Becauase the alternative is worse.
It makes me mad at Israel though, and even more mad at people who try to tell me that their religion makes it all OK.
posted by sotonohito at 8:48 AM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
> "Both Putin and Hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map."
so it took me three times to actually see that statement, instead of the statement i wanted it to be. because, well, i knew for a fact that whatever biden says about this war it's gonna be either mealy-mouthed or just awful because realpolitik or because a lot of folks in the united states government have some real bad ideas or you know that sort of thing.
and i was like, wait, this is the best mealy-mouthed statement i've ever seen. it's both-sidesy, but not even mealymouthed really! i thought this because my brain refused to let go of the idea that the sentence my eyes kept skittering off of in self-defense actually read:
"both israel and hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map."
like damn though if a u.s. president could tell it like that i would be so pleased. sure it's both-sidesy and neglects to factor in that although genocidal intent exists in both israel and gaza, there's a major differential in genocidal capacity on israel's side, but it acknowledges what netanyahu's endgame is and folks in the north american media have been talking about that far less than they should be talking about it.
but no he's calling putin and hamas the same thing? authoritarian ruler over bigass world power on the one hand, the leadership of the not-quite-a-regular-army of one very poor not particularly big city, and moreover that city's been under siege for decades? totally same-same right.
stuuuuuuupid, crap messaging, crap interpretation of world events, please say words that demoralize people under 50 less and words that make people under 50 happy more.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:16 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
so it took me three times to actually see that statement, instead of the statement i wanted it to be. because, well, i knew for a fact that whatever biden says about this war it's gonna be either mealy-mouthed or just awful because realpolitik or because a lot of folks in the united states government have some real bad ideas or you know that sort of thing.
and i was like, wait, this is the best mealy-mouthed statement i've ever seen. it's both-sidesy, but not even mealymouthed really! i thought this because my brain refused to let go of the idea that the sentence my eyes kept skittering off of in self-defense actually read:
"both israel and hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map."
like damn though if a u.s. president could tell it like that i would be so pleased. sure it's both-sidesy and neglects to factor in that although genocidal intent exists in both israel and gaza, there's a major differential in genocidal capacity on israel's side, but it acknowledges what netanyahu's endgame is and folks in the north american media have been talking about that far less than they should be talking about it.
but no he's calling putin and hamas the same thing? authoritarian ruler over bigass world power on the one hand, the leadership of the not-quite-a-regular-army of one very poor not particularly big city, and moreover that city's been under siege for decades? totally same-same right.
stuuuuuuupid, crap messaging, crap interpretation of world events, please say words that demoralize people under 50 less and words that make people under 50 happy more.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 9:16 AM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I beg to differ. China is far from just being a distraction. The US and UK / EU have zero credibility as Peace brokers, being just israei stooges apart from Macron and thus the turn to China and BRICS to help resolve the situation.
Israel-Gaza war: only a two-state solution can bring real peace, China president says in first public speech on conflict
Israel should stop imposing “collective punishment” on the people of Gaza and Hamas must release civilian hostages, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Tuesday in his first public speech on the conflict.
Addressing an online summit of the Brics group, Xi said only a two-state solution could bring lasting peace.
“China supports the legitimate national rights of the Palestinian people and the establishment of an independent state,” he said, renewing calls for a ceasefire in Gaza.
“There can be no security in the Middle East without a just solution to the question of Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 9:20 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel-Gaza war: only a two-state solution can bring real peace, China president says in first public speech on conflict
Israel should stop imposing “collective punishment” on the people of Gaza and Hamas must release civilian hostages, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Tuesday in his first public speech on the conflict.
Addressing an online summit of the Brics group, Xi said only a two-state solution could bring lasting peace.
“China supports the legitimate national rights of the Palestinian people and the establishment of an independent state,” he said, renewing calls for a ceasefire in Gaza.
“There can be no security in the Middle East without a just solution to the question of Palestine.
posted by adamvasco at 9:20 AM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Even to take this back to October 7th, apparently a number of victims were not given full burial rites because they weren't considered fully Jewish, apparently an Israeli issue with its Russian Jewish population.
This is a bit complicated because the Israeli government takes its definition of "Jewish" from the Nazis (that is, anyone with 1 Jewish grandparent - the people the Nazis targeted), while the Israeli Rabbinate goes by the Jewish law definition (you are only Jewish if your mother is Jewish or you converted). I have a Russian friend whose great-grandfather was Jewish; as a grandchild, his father could (as did) immigrate to Israel, but neither he or his brother can (thus, they are in Canada). A lot of Russian Israelis are in this situation: they are not Jewish by Jewish law, but they are by Israeli law. Which is bad, because things like marriage or burial are done by your official religion (Jewish, Christian or Muslim), but they aren't any of those, officially.
So they are full citizens with all the rights vis-a-vis the government; it's the Rabbinate and religious services that are the problem. Israel obviously needs either a new Rabbinate or secular options for marriage, burial, etc., or (preferably) both.
(It gets even more complicated when you learn that the Israeli government will accept Reform and Conservative conversions for the purpose of immigration (if done outside of Israel), but the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate won't. As a Reform convert, I could immigrate to Israel but would not "Jewish" when I arrived. So I have no idea how or whether I would be buried.)
I see it of a piece such that while you have observed more criticisms I see it as a consequence of western self-regard (who cares about Azerbaijan? Eritria?) that sees other places as other places ("so what can you expect, really" vs "IDF is the most moral army" which plays on the same register as American "I love the troops and here's why they should be held to a higher standard") because that's taking place at the same time as Israel like Australia can be accepted to perform in Eurovision (why?). Israel is seen as part of the West and the West values itself to a higher standard (of I don't know what). Could there be institutional anti-Semitism at play? I wouldn't be surprised.
Thank you for clarifying - and you are completely right. I don't know about now, but the North American discourse in the early 2000s was definitely western-centric: Israel is more like us (i.e., modern, progressive) and therefore we expect more from them. I thought there might be a touch of philosemitism, or at least more familiarity with Jewish culture than with Arabic culture, but probably it was also just a lot of racism.
Maybe it is also about the existing networks, both Jewish and Palestinian/Arabic. When the Rohingya genocide started, I went to one of the protests against it that had been organized mostly by our local South Asian Muslim community. But the turn out was so much smaller than it has been for the recent protests of the Gaza invasion, I think because they are not well networked with other communities. I remember that my husband, my friend and I were among the very few non-South Asian people there.
...it's also the only one whose crimes I'm expected to have understanding for in leftist spaces. A discussion on Metafilter about the Rohingya genocide or residential schools in Canada or Latin American junta disappearances or the treatment of LGBTQ+ people in Saudi Arabia doesn't draw hundreds of comments effectively saying "but you need to consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor."
I don't know about your leftist circles, but I haven't heard anyone saying, "Well, you have to look at this from the point of view of Likud, or the extremist settlers, etc." (Well, except for CIJA, but they are about as left-wing as Mitch McConnell). Asking people to recognize the victims of the Oct. 7 attack and condemn that attack is not asking people to "consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor"; it's asking them to recognize their humanity as well as those who are being killed by Israel.
My experience in non-Jewish leftist communities is a) the actual understanding of the situation is pretty low and b) the only thing that has ever been said or allowed to be said about the conflict is "Free Palestine" (whether that's the actual topic of the day or not). Not "peace in the middle east" or "two-state solution now", but just "Free Palestine", sometimes accompanied "from the river to the sea" (which, as discussed above, has different meanings for different people - and it's not always clear which is being used). There seems to be little to no knowledge among the North American left of the Israeli left and progressives who have been on the ground working for peace and reconciliation; and little to no support for that very beleaguered Israeli left. (Obviously, Jewish leftist organizations are paying attention; I mostly follow Tru'ah, a rabbinic human rights organization who are calling for a ceasefire and a political solution).
To be honest: as a western leftist Jew, I really wish that the other leftists would just shut up about Israel-Palestine on occasion. Like at Pride: we'd like to go celebrate LGBTQ rights without having yet another demonstration about Israel - especially when the vast majority of people are so poorly informed on the situation that they can't even tell the difference between an Israeli flag and a Jewish LGBTQ/Pride flag.
As for comparisons: none of the situations you have cited have violence on both sides. None of the leftist discussions of the Rohingya genocide, residential schools, etc., have praised violence committed against the civilian members of the oppressing state, because it hasn't happened. There has been no praise for the killing of Burmese people, Saudi Arabians, or even former residential school teachers (many of whom must have directly committed great crimes).
I have wondered: what would the progressive reaction be if an Indigenous group in Canada were to carry out similar violence as happened on October 7? If they went into the construction camp for a pipeline and murdered all of the workers? I have strongly supported the pipeline protests (which have, of course, been entirely peaceful on the side of the Indigenous activists, though not on the side of the Canadian government). But if they weren't peaceful, how would that complicate the situation? Would the same progressive/leftist groups who have praised the Hamas attack as righteous resistance also praise actions like these?
I don't know what to think of progressives/leftists who have praised Hamas; nothing like this happened after 9/11 (even though the US has done horrible things overseas) or the Paris attacks (despite France's terrible colonial and post-colonial actions). My partner thinks it's just antisemitism; I'd like to hope that it is more complicated. I completely understand why people are horrified at the Gaza invasion, because I am. But why were they not also horrified by the October 7 attacks?
I can only think back to the links upthread about dual loyalties and dual pain.
What on earth makes you think the Jim Crow south wasn't an apartheid state?
Because South African apartheid was a very different system than Jim Crow. I'm not going to explain all the details because I will get them wrong. But my partner is a 20th century historian who studies international relations, politics and state violence, and we have discussed this at length (i.e., he has given me the same lecture he does for his students). He likens the situation for Arab Israeli citizens to that of non-white Americans in the North - nominally, they are supposed to have equal rights, but the reality is that they face a great deal of official and unofficial discrimination (in housing, education, employment, etc.). The situation in the West Bank is more like Jim Crow, including the fact that the controlling state (Israel) only uses its power to protect some residents (the settlers) while allowing those residents to carry out violence against others (Palestinians) and carries out their own violence - a lot like the police and state forces in the US South under Jim Crow who turned a blind eye to lynching, etc. His understanding of South African Apartheid is much better than my own - he explained the ways in which the situation in the occupied territories is similar and how it is different (and more like Jim Crow).
posted by jb at 1:01 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is a bit complicated because the Israeli government takes its definition of "Jewish" from the Nazis (that is, anyone with 1 Jewish grandparent - the people the Nazis targeted), while the Israeli Rabbinate goes by the Jewish law definition (you are only Jewish if your mother is Jewish or you converted). I have a Russian friend whose great-grandfather was Jewish; as a grandchild, his father could (as did) immigrate to Israel, but neither he or his brother can (thus, they are in Canada). A lot of Russian Israelis are in this situation: they are not Jewish by Jewish law, but they are by Israeli law. Which is bad, because things like marriage or burial are done by your official religion (Jewish, Christian or Muslim), but they aren't any of those, officially.
So they are full citizens with all the rights vis-a-vis the government; it's the Rabbinate and religious services that are the problem. Israel obviously needs either a new Rabbinate or secular options for marriage, burial, etc., or (preferably) both.
(It gets even more complicated when you learn that the Israeli government will accept Reform and Conservative conversions for the purpose of immigration (if done outside of Israel), but the ultra-Orthodox Rabbinate won't. As a Reform convert, I could immigrate to Israel but would not "Jewish" when I arrived. So I have no idea how or whether I would be buried.)
I see it of a piece such that while you have observed more criticisms I see it as a consequence of western self-regard (who cares about Azerbaijan? Eritria?) that sees other places as other places ("so what can you expect, really" vs "IDF is the most moral army" which plays on the same register as American "I love the troops and here's why they should be held to a higher standard") because that's taking place at the same time as Israel like Australia can be accepted to perform in Eurovision (why?). Israel is seen as part of the West and the West values itself to a higher standard (of I don't know what). Could there be institutional anti-Semitism at play? I wouldn't be surprised.
Thank you for clarifying - and you are completely right. I don't know about now, but the North American discourse in the early 2000s was definitely western-centric: Israel is more like us (i.e., modern, progressive) and therefore we expect more from them. I thought there might be a touch of philosemitism, or at least more familiarity with Jewish culture than with Arabic culture, but probably it was also just a lot of racism.
Maybe it is also about the existing networks, both Jewish and Palestinian/Arabic. When the Rohingya genocide started, I went to one of the protests against it that had been organized mostly by our local South Asian Muslim community. But the turn out was so much smaller than it has been for the recent protests of the Gaza invasion, I think because they are not well networked with other communities. I remember that my husband, my friend and I were among the very few non-South Asian people there.
...it's also the only one whose crimes I'm expected to have understanding for in leftist spaces. A discussion on Metafilter about the Rohingya genocide or residential schools in Canada or Latin American junta disappearances or the treatment of LGBTQ+ people in Saudi Arabia doesn't draw hundreds of comments effectively saying "but you need to consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor."
I don't know about your leftist circles, but I haven't heard anyone saying, "Well, you have to look at this from the point of view of Likud, or the extremist settlers, etc." (Well, except for CIJA, but they are about as left-wing as Mitch McConnell). Asking people to recognize the victims of the Oct. 7 attack and condemn that attack is not asking people to "consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor"; it's asking them to recognize their humanity as well as those who are being killed by Israel.
My experience in non-Jewish leftist communities is a) the actual understanding of the situation is pretty low and b) the only thing that has ever been said or allowed to be said about the conflict is "Free Palestine" (whether that's the actual topic of the day or not). Not "peace in the middle east" or "two-state solution now", but just "Free Palestine", sometimes accompanied "from the river to the sea" (which, as discussed above, has different meanings for different people - and it's not always clear which is being used). There seems to be little to no knowledge among the North American left of the Israeli left and progressives who have been on the ground working for peace and reconciliation; and little to no support for that very beleaguered Israeli left. (Obviously, Jewish leftist organizations are paying attention; I mostly follow Tru'ah, a rabbinic human rights organization who are calling for a ceasefire and a political solution).
To be honest: as a western leftist Jew, I really wish that the other leftists would just shut up about Israel-Palestine on occasion. Like at Pride: we'd like to go celebrate LGBTQ rights without having yet another demonstration about Israel - especially when the vast majority of people are so poorly informed on the situation that they can't even tell the difference between an Israeli flag and a Jewish LGBTQ/Pride flag.
As for comparisons: none of the situations you have cited have violence on both sides. None of the leftist discussions of the Rohingya genocide, residential schools, etc., have praised violence committed against the civilian members of the oppressing state, because it hasn't happened. There has been no praise for the killing of Burmese people, Saudi Arabians, or even former residential school teachers (many of whom must have directly committed great crimes).
I have wondered: what would the progressive reaction be if an Indigenous group in Canada were to carry out similar violence as happened on October 7? If they went into the construction camp for a pipeline and murdered all of the workers? I have strongly supported the pipeline protests (which have, of course, been entirely peaceful on the side of the Indigenous activists, though not on the side of the Canadian government). But if they weren't peaceful, how would that complicate the situation? Would the same progressive/leftist groups who have praised the Hamas attack as righteous resistance also praise actions like these?
I don't know what to think of progressives/leftists who have praised Hamas; nothing like this happened after 9/11 (even though the US has done horrible things overseas) or the Paris attacks (despite France's terrible colonial and post-colonial actions). My partner thinks it's just antisemitism; I'd like to hope that it is more complicated. I completely understand why people are horrified at the Gaza invasion, because I am. But why were they not also horrified by the October 7 attacks?
I can only think back to the links upthread about dual loyalties and dual pain.
What on earth makes you think the Jim Crow south wasn't an apartheid state?
Because South African apartheid was a very different system than Jim Crow. I'm not going to explain all the details because I will get them wrong. But my partner is a 20th century historian who studies international relations, politics and state violence, and we have discussed this at length (i.e., he has given me the same lecture he does for his students). He likens the situation for Arab Israeli citizens to that of non-white Americans in the North - nominally, they are supposed to have equal rights, but the reality is that they face a great deal of official and unofficial discrimination (in housing, education, employment, etc.). The situation in the West Bank is more like Jim Crow, including the fact that the controlling state (Israel) only uses its power to protect some residents (the settlers) while allowing those residents to carry out violence against others (Palestinians) and carries out their own violence - a lot like the police and state forces in the US South under Jim Crow who turned a blind eye to lynching, etc. His understanding of South African Apartheid is much better than my own - he explained the ways in which the situation in the occupied territories is similar and how it is different (and more like Jim Crow).
posted by jb at 1:01 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
But they're such a fringe minority group that I don't think they had any real effect on the larger anti-Zionist response to the IDF murdering babies via carpet bombing Gaza and the murderous settler rampages on West Bank.
This "fringe" includes all three student unions at one of Canada's largest universities. It did include one of our public service union leaders; he later apologized.
I said up thread: I am not attending any protests against the invasion of Gaza, though I am absolutely against the invasion of Gaza. But I don't feel physically safe at the local protests.
The left will lose Jews. I know we're a tiny number of people, so maybe we don't matter. But you could say that about queer people too - we're just a small number of people, too, but the left would care if queer people were being alienated.
And instead of working together with the Jewish and Israeli left AGAINST the invasion, the international left has just reinforced Bibi the Yahoo's claims that "everyone is against us".
posted by jb at 1:27 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
This "fringe" includes all three student unions at one of Canada's largest universities. It did include one of our public service union leaders; he later apologized.
I said up thread: I am not attending any protests against the invasion of Gaza, though I am absolutely against the invasion of Gaza. But I don't feel physically safe at the local protests.
The left will lose Jews. I know we're a tiny number of people, so maybe we don't matter. But you could say that about queer people too - we're just a small number of people, too, but the left would care if queer people were being alienated.
And instead of working together with the Jewish and Israeli left AGAINST the invasion, the international left has just reinforced Bibi the Yahoo's claims that "everyone is against us".
posted by jb at 1:27 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel is not yet an apartheid state (Jim Crow would be a better description)
Jim Crow absolutely was apartheid, what are you even talking about? "Apartheid" literally means "segregation". I am not yet fifty years old, and one of my earliest childhood memories, from the early 1980's, is of my grandmother's Black housekeeper, who would walk over every morning from her shotgun shack on a red-dirt road over a mile away. The deed to the house my father bought in 1973 (in Georgia) had a restrictive covenant that limited sale to white Christians. There may not have been townships and Bantustans, but redlining and residential segregation achieved largely the same effect. (Also in the context of Israel "apartheid" more commonly refers to the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank under Israeli occupation and not to Arab citizens of Israel, so bringing in Israeli Arabs to say "well it isn't actually apartheid" is disingenuous?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:41 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Jim Crow absolutely was apartheid, what are you even talking about? "Apartheid" literally means "segregation". I am not yet fifty years old, and one of my earliest childhood memories, from the early 1980's, is of my grandmother's Black housekeeper, who would walk over every morning from her shotgun shack on a red-dirt road over a mile away. The deed to the house my father bought in 1973 (in Georgia) had a restrictive covenant that limited sale to white Christians. There may not have been townships and Bantustans, but redlining and residential segregation achieved largely the same effect. (Also in the context of Israel "apartheid" more commonly refers to the treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank under Israeli occupation and not to Arab citizens of Israel, so bringing in Israeli Arabs to say "well it isn't actually apartheid" is disingenuous?)
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:41 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
… so maybe we don't matter …
(Just to explain - my own comment here isn’t relevant to the specific points in your important discussion here, MeFi dear hearts … I just wanted to say … )
You’ll always matter to me, jb! 😘
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:42 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Just to explain - my own comment here isn’t relevant to the specific points in your important discussion here, MeFi dear hearts … I just wanted to say … )
You’ll always matter to me, jb! 😘
posted by the quidnunc kid at 1:42 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who is the international left here? College students?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:46 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:46 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
Like I said, I am no expert. But my SO (who is) tells me that Apartheid was just different. I don't even know if it was worse or not. But it was really different - and he explained it in a way that I understood that it mattered.
posted by jb at 1:46 PM on November 21, 2023
posted by jb at 1:46 PM on November 21, 2023
I would ask my partner to come explain it, but he left metafilter due to the bullying.
posted by jb at 1:49 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jb at 1:49 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Friendly reminder that historical analogies are not mental models but are rhetorical tools.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:50 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:50 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
This "fringe" includes all three student unions at one of Canada's largest universities
And? Does that make it less fringe? Student unions and student political organising committees are frequently dominated by people who represent more extreme viewpoints (on both ends of the spectrum; the Young Republicans at UCSB had white nationalist extremist Charlie Kirk as a guest speaker, for instance).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on November 21, 2023
And? Does that make it less fringe? Student unions and student political organising committees are frequently dominated by people who represent more extreme viewpoints (on both ends of the spectrum; the Young Republicans at UCSB had white nationalist extremist Charlie Kirk as a guest speaker, for instance).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:51 PM on November 21, 2023
Google is useful when you don't know stuff.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:01 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:01 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
snuffleupagus, seems you seem so curious as to the reason, I'll briefly lay it out here, like I said, it's not anything that anyone needs to be convinced about, it's just some random interesting nerdery.
Structurally, the Merkava is laid out exactly like an IFV, say the Bradley Fighting Vehicle or BMP-2. All variants of the Merkava are laid out to carry 4 crew + 6 soldiers with combat kit in a front engine design with a rear crew area and rear hatch.
In the Merkava, it is common to use the passenger seating area on either side of the path out to the rear hatch to store additional ammo or other living conveniences for long operations. However, even with ammo stored there, it can pick up wounded or stranded crew in a pinch, more if they throw it out the back. Arguably, this is an IFV platform at its core that commonly uses the passenger space to improve its tank role by increasing the amount of ammo it can carry. It is can even used as a mobile forward command center.
In contrast, virtually all main battle tanks (Abrams, Leopard, Challenger, Soviet T-Series) use a rear engine design with no room for passengers and no rear hatch for egress.
What happens when you increase the size of an Toyota by 200%? No you don't get an IFV or a tank, it's still a Toyota, just a supersized one.
What happens when you increase the size of an IFV by 50%? So you go from a 30 tonne Bradley to a 65 tonne Merkava. Do you then get a tank, or is it just a super IFV that has the firepower and armor of a tank while still being able to carry passengers? I agree that 95% of people would say it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, so it's a duck, but there's an argument that it's not one.
posted by xdvesper at 2:10 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Structurally, the Merkava is laid out exactly like an IFV, say the Bradley Fighting Vehicle or BMP-2. All variants of the Merkava are laid out to carry 4 crew + 6 soldiers with combat kit in a front engine design with a rear crew area and rear hatch.
In the Merkava, it is common to use the passenger seating area on either side of the path out to the rear hatch to store additional ammo or other living conveniences for long operations. However, even with ammo stored there, it can pick up wounded or stranded crew in a pinch, more if they throw it out the back. Arguably, this is an IFV platform at its core that commonly uses the passenger space to improve its tank role by increasing the amount of ammo it can carry. It is can even used as a mobile forward command center.
In contrast, virtually all main battle tanks (Abrams, Leopard, Challenger, Soviet T-Series) use a rear engine design with no room for passengers and no rear hatch for egress.
What happens when you increase the size of an Toyota by 200%? No you don't get an IFV or a tank, it's still a Toyota, just a supersized one.
What happens when you increase the size of an IFV by 50%? So you go from a 30 tonne Bradley to a 65 tonne Merkava. Do you then get a tank, or is it just a super IFV that has the firepower and armor of a tank while still being able to carry passengers? I agree that 95% of people would say it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, so it's a duck, but there's an argument that it's not one.
posted by xdvesper at 2:10 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
"both israel and hamas are fighting to wipe a neighboring democracy off the map.
I see what you did there. the old let's switch one side for another, lay down some cute phrases and hope to sell that stuuuuuuupid, crap messaging, crap interpretation of world events, please say words that obfusicate people
posted by clavdivs at 2:16 PM on November 21, 2023
I see what you did there. the old let's switch one side for another, lay down some cute phrases and hope to sell that stuuuuuuupid, crap messaging, crap interpretation of world events, please say words that obfusicate people
posted by clavdivs at 2:16 PM on November 21, 2023
'3 Historical Mental Models That Explain What’s Happening Now'
"History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes,” is the often cited quote which best describes how history works. While each situation is unique, there are some patterns you often find happening again and again.
That’s why historical analogies are great tools to inform us on the present. They can illuminate potential courses of action, and show us the mistakes made in the past."
I see, in this discussion with the primary context of historical sources, who plays the role of Madame pompadour?
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
"History does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes,” is the often cited quote which best describes how history works. While each situation is unique, there are some patterns you often find happening again and again.
That’s why historical analogies are great tools to inform us on the present. They can illuminate potential courses of action, and show us the mistakes made in the past."
I see, in this discussion with the primary context of historical sources, who plays the role of Madame pompadour?
posted by clavdivs at 2:29 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
And instead of working together with the Jewish and Israeli left AGAINST the invasion, the international left has just reinforced Bibi the Yahoo's claims that "everyone is against us".
This makes no sense. I don't even know who the "international left" is here, but in Israel the Jewish left is under attack, sometimes violently, from both the government (who has vowed to use lethal violence against protestors they see as interfering with the war effort) and a good number of their fellow Israeli Jews. In the US, almost the entirety of Jewish mainstream organizations have explicitly sided with antisemites, and have spent the last month and a half demonizing the Jewish left as essentially terrorist sympathizers and possibly traitors to Judaism.
To whatever extent the Jewish and Israeli left are being betrayed by a nebulous international left, the betrayal by their fellow Jews and Israelis is starting to seem far worse and far, far more dangerous.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:40 PM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
This makes no sense. I don't even know who the "international left" is here, but in Israel the Jewish left is under attack, sometimes violently, from both the government (who has vowed to use lethal violence against protestors they see as interfering with the war effort) and a good number of their fellow Israeli Jews. In the US, almost the entirety of Jewish mainstream organizations have explicitly sided with antisemites, and have spent the last month and a half demonizing the Jewish left as essentially terrorist sympathizers and possibly traitors to Judaism.
To whatever extent the Jewish and Israeli left are being betrayed by a nebulous international left, the betrayal by their fellow Jews and Israelis is starting to seem far worse and far, far more dangerous.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:40 PM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
The world's most moral army, everyone!
Israeli forces on Sunday killed one of the Palestinian journalists who provided “indispensable research” for Committee to Protect Journalists report released earlier this year that found a pattern of IDF lethally targeting journalists and evading accountability.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 2:47 PM on November 21, 2023 [8 favorites]
Jim Crow absolutely was apartheid, what are you even talking about? "Apartheid" literally means "segregation"
Agreed. both are segregationalist laws. though this analogy is incorrect as the Jim Crow laws of the United States did not reach every state of the union, they were local and State laws where as apartheid covered the whole country except for maybe 10% of the land that was ascribed for South Africans of color. more importantly apartheid carried out laws against the population that formed a majority of the population whereas United States these laws were created to suppress people in the minority of the population.
posted by clavdivs at 2:50 PM on November 21, 2023
Agreed. both are segregationalist laws. though this analogy is incorrect as the Jim Crow laws of the United States did not reach every state of the union, they were local and State laws where as apartheid covered the whole country except for maybe 10% of the land that was ascribed for South Africans of color. more importantly apartheid carried out laws against the population that formed a majority of the population whereas United States these laws were created to suppress people in the minority of the population.
posted by clavdivs at 2:50 PM on November 21, 2023
apartheid carried out laws against the population that formed a majority of the population
South Carolina had a Black majority population under Jim Crow, so did Mississippi.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:11 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
South Carolina had a Black majority population under Jim Crow, so did Mississippi.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 3:11 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I am not familiar enough with the details of either of them to really have much of an opinion whether the similarities and differences between actual historical Apartheid and actual historical Jim Crow are or are not enough to think of metaphorical Apartheid and metaphorical Jim Crow as the same thing, but I do have some opinions on a few related matters:
(1) They're both horrible;
(2) The literal meaning of the word "apartheid", as opposed to the meaning of the actual historical system "Apartheid", is not particularly relevant to the question;
(3) The question itself doesn't seem particularly relevant to this thread in the first place.
I mean, really, someone describing the I/P situation as being "like Apartheid", another describing it as "like Jim Crow", and a third saying "Apartheid and Jim Crow are the same thing"? That's certainly grounds for, like, an academic debate on Apartheid and Jim Crow, but in the context of a casual layman's conversation about I/P, it seems like "No, you're wrong, eighty angels can dance on the head of a pin!"
posted by Flunkie at 3:33 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
(1) They're both horrible;
(2) The literal meaning of the word "apartheid", as opposed to the meaning of the actual historical system "Apartheid", is not particularly relevant to the question;
(3) The question itself doesn't seem particularly relevant to this thread in the first place.
I mean, really, someone describing the I/P situation as being "like Apartheid", another describing it as "like Jim Crow", and a third saying "Apartheid and Jim Crow are the same thing"? That's certainly grounds for, like, an academic debate on Apartheid and Jim Crow, but in the context of a casual layman's conversation about I/P, it seems like "No, you're wrong, eighty angels can dance on the head of a pin!"
posted by Flunkie at 3:33 PM on November 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know what to think of progressives/leftists who have praised Hamas
I do.
I'll say this, as someone who's been both: it is a fundamentally different experience living in America (or Canada, or England, or France) as an observant Jew than it is living in America as a secular Jew. Secular Jews are not immune to antisemitism, obviously, and plenty have first-hand experience with it. But it is so much more apparent and present to Jewish people who are visibly Jewish and visibly different, and for whom their observance of Judaism extrudes into the public part of their lives. It's not just paranoia. If you keep shabbat or kosher you will experience casual antisemitism that people who don't will miss. If you dress in ways associated with Judaism, whether it's simply wearing a kippah or the full Hasidic uniform, you will experience antisemitic harassment and violence that those who pass may never be exposed to. Almost everyone in my extended family and community of origin can tell stories. Real stories. Stories of violence or attempted violence or physical or verbal harassment — real threats. It's not confined to conservatives or Nazis or fascists. There are plenty of progressive leftists in Brooklyn who are not shy about how they feel regarding Hasidim. Antisemitism is real across the political spectrum.
I don't have any broader point here, nor does this have the slightest bearing on the moral atrocities Israel is committing or the necessity of a ceasefire. I wish I could be a more active advocate for Palestinians right now. But every time I try to engage with pro-Palestinian activism I am met with people who are not only antisemitic, but are so antisemitic that they don't believe they could possibly be antisemitic because they don't believe antisemitism is real, and it's scary and exhausting and I'm so tired.
posted by cosmic owl at 3:44 PM on November 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
I do.
I'll say this, as someone who's been both: it is a fundamentally different experience living in America (or Canada, or England, or France) as an observant Jew than it is living in America as a secular Jew. Secular Jews are not immune to antisemitism, obviously, and plenty have first-hand experience with it. But it is so much more apparent and present to Jewish people who are visibly Jewish and visibly different, and for whom their observance of Judaism extrudes into the public part of their lives. It's not just paranoia. If you keep shabbat or kosher you will experience casual antisemitism that people who don't will miss. If you dress in ways associated with Judaism, whether it's simply wearing a kippah or the full Hasidic uniform, you will experience antisemitic harassment and violence that those who pass may never be exposed to. Almost everyone in my extended family and community of origin can tell stories. Real stories. Stories of violence or attempted violence or physical or verbal harassment — real threats. It's not confined to conservatives or Nazis or fascists. There are plenty of progressive leftists in Brooklyn who are not shy about how they feel regarding Hasidim. Antisemitism is real across the political spectrum.
I don't have any broader point here, nor does this have the slightest bearing on the moral atrocities Israel is committing or the necessity of a ceasefire. I wish I could be a more active advocate for Palestinians right now. But every time I try to engage with pro-Palestinian activism I am met with people who are not only antisemitic, but are so antisemitic that they don't believe they could possibly be antisemitic because they don't believe antisemitism is real, and it's scary and exhausting and I'm so tired.
posted by cosmic owl at 3:44 PM on November 21, 2023 [17 favorites]
That's true. but as I stated, Jim Crow were local and state laws passed to suppress the rights of African-Americans. it was never a federal statute. doesn't mean that there was not racism in every state and acts of segregation even in the north. one of the reasons for Jim Crow laws were created were prevent societal integration and political disenfranchisement of African Americans. for example, Rep. Rainey.
surely there must be some concept culturally to fit the desegregation andviolation of human Rights within the middle East other than American local and state laws.
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 21, 2023
surely there must be some concept culturally to fit the desegregation andviolation of human Rights within the middle East other than American local and state laws.
posted by clavdivs at 3:50 PM on November 21, 2023
Western support for Hamas is morally bankrupt, as is Western support for the IDF. Only one type of support in the West will get you fired.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:30 PM on November 21, 2023 [12 favorites]
surely there must be some concept culturally to fit the desegregation andviolation of human Rights within the middle East other than American local and state laws.
historically though, a lot of these local and state laws were used as examples and templates for racist states worldwide, including nazi germany - they LEARNED things from us and it wasn't good
it's far afield for this discussion, but there is a connection
posted by pyramid termite at 5:03 PM on November 21, 2023
historically though, a lot of these local and state laws were used as examples and templates for racist states worldwide, including nazi germany - they LEARNED things from us and it wasn't good
it's far afield for this discussion, but there is a connection
posted by pyramid termite at 5:03 PM on November 21, 2023
...or censured.
exactly pryamid, the genocide America committed towards the native Americans was indeed incepid. one aspect, the dehumanization of the dehumanization and it was when companies offered a tour on a train car to shoot Buffalo. everything from forbidding the ghost dance to forced educational standards created by the White man both north and south because nothing says killing then making up and kill more people. I'm thinking more along the lines of a quasi apartheid as used by France in Algeria.
if there is a term to be used I would use ghettoization in relation to America and what's taking place in the last 45 to 50 years within Israel.
posted by clavdivs at 5:26 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
exactly pryamid, the genocide America committed towards the native Americans was indeed incepid. one aspect, the dehumanization of the dehumanization and it was when companies offered a tour on a train car to shoot Buffalo. everything from forbidding the ghost dance to forced educational standards created by the White man both north and south because nothing says killing then making up and kill more people. I'm thinking more along the lines of a quasi apartheid as used by France in Algeria.
if there is a term to be used I would use ghettoization in relation to America and what's taking place in the last 45 to 50 years within Israel.
posted by clavdivs at 5:26 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Taking a moment to appreciate this Hollywood tangent and the randomest person I wouldn't have expected: A Fired ‘Scream’ Star, Clients Booted From Agencies and a Secret Tom Cruise Meeting: Inside Hollywood’s Divide Over Israel - Across town, the agency’s fiercest rival, CAA, was dealing with a crisis. Maha Dakhil, one of its top agents, had ignited a firestorm with her Instagram posts, including one that said, “What’s more heartbreaking than witnessing genocide? Witnessing the denial that genocide is happening.” In response, Dakhil was relieved of her duties as co-chief the motion pictures department, though she was allowed to remain an agent. It didn’t hurt that her most important client, Tom Cruise, made it known to CAA that he was backing her. Cruise met with Dakhil at her CAA office on Nov. 15. A knowledgeable source says he took the rare step of going in person to show support for his embattled agent.
posted by cendawanita at 5:51 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 5:51 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israeli Cabinet approves cease-fire with Hamas that includes release of some 50 hostages
The deal calls for a four-day cease-fire, during which Israel will halt its military offensive in Gaza while Hamas frees “at least” 50 of the roughly 240 hostages it and other militants are holding, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office said. [...] Despite [Netanyahu's] tough words, the government statement said the truce would be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages released by Hamas. [...] While the statement did not say when the truce would begin, Israeli media reports said the hostages could begin to be released as soon as Thursday.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:13 PM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
The deal calls for a four-day cease-fire, during which Israel will halt its military offensive in Gaza while Hamas frees “at least” 50 of the roughly 240 hostages it and other militants are holding, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office said. [...] Despite [Netanyahu's] tough words, the government statement said the truce would be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages released by Hamas. [...] While the statement did not say when the truce would begin, Israeli media reports said the hostages could begin to be released as soon as Thursday.
posted by the tartare yolk at 6:13 PM on November 21, 2023 [5 favorites]
it's far afield for this discussion, but there is a connection.
I do not like my tone, so apologies pyramid. we know that Truman supported the creation of the state of Israel, and since Hollywood is on the table, he even corresponded with Groucho and Harpo Marx the former wrote an op-ed stating the United States should take a lot of the displaced persons in Europe after the second World War.
Kfar Truman
posted by clavdivs at 6:42 PM on November 21, 2023
I do not like my tone, so apologies pyramid. we know that Truman supported the creation of the state of Israel, and since Hollywood is on the table, he even corresponded with Groucho and Harpo Marx the former wrote an op-ed stating the United States should take a lot of the displaced persons in Europe after the second World War.
Kfar Truman
posted by clavdivs at 6:42 PM on November 21, 2023
Taking a moment to appreciate this Hollywood tangent
People getting fired for accurately describing Israel's actions is fucking insane (she's not the only one).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:45 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
People getting fired for accurately describing Israel's actions is fucking insane (she's not the only one).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:45 PM on November 21, 2023 [6 favorites]
The deal calls for a four-day cease-fire, during which Israel will halt its military offensive in Gaza while Hamas frees “at least” 50 of the roughly 240 hostages it and other militants are holding, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office said. [...] Despite [Netanyahu's] tough words, the government statement said the truce would be extended an extra day for every additional 10 hostages released by Hamas. [...] While the statement did not say when the truce would begin, Israeli media reports said the hostages could begin to be released as soon as Thursday.
So if they release the other 190, they'll get close to another three whole weeks and then the bombings will begin again?
Now that's incentive.
As for the Scream actress, Spyglass Media Group reportedly released a statement:
“We have zero tolerance for antisemitism or the incitement of hate in any form, including false references to genocide, ethnic cleansing, Holocaust distortion or anything that flagrantly crosses the line into hate speech.”
I can't say that I was gearing up to watch yet another Scream rehash, but that's a big nope for the entire studio for me going forward.
posted by delfin at 7:00 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
So if they release the other 190, they'll get close to another three whole weeks and then the bombings will begin again?
Now that's incentive.
As for the Scream actress, Spyglass Media Group reportedly released a statement:
“We have zero tolerance for antisemitism or the incitement of hate in any form, including false references to genocide, ethnic cleansing, Holocaust distortion or anything that flagrantly crosses the line into hate speech.”
I can't say that I was gearing up to watch yet another Scream rehash, but that's a big nope for the entire studio for me going forward.
posted by delfin at 7:00 PM on November 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
People getting fired for accurately describing Israel's actions is fucking insane (she's not the only one).
I'd describe it differently, but there is definitely a group of them going through it together -- Susan Sarandon just got dropped by her agency, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 21, 2023
I'd describe it differently, but there is definitely a group of them going through it together -- Susan Sarandon just got dropped by her agency, for example.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:01 PM on November 21, 2023
People getting fired for accurately describing Israel's actions is fucking insane
Not only that but it’s entirely within the bounds of acceptable discourse in Israel!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:49 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not only that but it’s entirely within the bounds of acceptable discourse in Israel!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:49 PM on November 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
From Variety. UTA is the agency that just dropped Sarandon.
‘ The UTA news comes after Hollywood has become divided over the Israel-Hamas War. Last month, CAA agent Maha Dakhil resigned from the agency's internal board after making controversial comments on social media regarding Israel. She also stepped away from her leadership duties as co-head of the motion pictures department. Dakhil shared a social media post that read, "You're currently learning who supports genocide," followed by posts that read, "That's the line for me" and "What's more heartbreaking than witnessing genocide? Witnessing the denial that genocide is happening." Dakhil later apologized, saying, "I made a mistake with a repost in my Instagram story, which used hurtful language. Like so many of us, I have been reeling with heartbreak. I pride myself on being on the side of humanity and peace. I'm so grateful to Jewish friends and colleagues who pointed out the implications and further educated me. I immediately took the repost down. I'm sorry for the pain I have caused."‘
Holy shit.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:00 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
‘ The UTA news comes after Hollywood has become divided over the Israel-Hamas War. Last month, CAA agent Maha Dakhil resigned from the agency's internal board after making controversial comments on social media regarding Israel. She also stepped away from her leadership duties as co-head of the motion pictures department. Dakhil shared a social media post that read, "You're currently learning who supports genocide," followed by posts that read, "That's the line for me" and "What's more heartbreaking than witnessing genocide? Witnessing the denial that genocide is happening." Dakhil later apologized, saying, "I made a mistake with a repost in my Instagram story, which used hurtful language. Like so many of us, I have been reeling with heartbreak. I pride myself on being on the side of humanity and peace. I'm so grateful to Jewish friends and colleagues who pointed out the implications and further educated me. I immediately took the repost down. I'm sorry for the pain I have caused."‘
Holy shit.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:00 PM on November 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hollywood divides
on a war overseas
The further on the edge
The hotter the intensity
no were near the
dangerzone.
posted by clavdivs at 9:40 PM on November 21, 2023
on a war overseas
The further on the edge
The hotter the intensity
no were near the
dangerzone.
posted by clavdivs at 9:40 PM on November 21, 2023
On China:
Addressing an online summit of the Brics group, Xi said only a two-state solution could bring lasting peace.
I'll be frank, having it done at BRICS doesn't engender me with a lot of confidence, the grouping with no real institutional heft and seriousness that despite fanfare (this year in fact) Indonesia LITERALLY decided to not join at the very last moment (on the week itself) because they could read the direction China and Russia wanted to take it. Indonesia, the country that has done actual aid and humanitarian work in the occupied territories. In the meantime, like Anwar, Jokowi managed to use APEC to talk publicly and directly to Biden's face about the current situation. (still crickets from KSA and the Emirates, but I'm sure they're sad and distressed about it.)
But every time I try to engage with pro-Palestinian activism I am met with people who are not only antisemitic, but are so antisemitic that they don't believe they could possibly be antisemitic because they don't believe antisemitism is real, and it's scary and exhausting and I'm so tired.
Oh yeah, I completely resonate with this, from the Muslim-majority side of things. IN FACT, the big secret (or I'm one of the few who've actually articulated it - certainly even locals here act surprised when this is pointed out) in the Muslim world these days, due to the rampant and unaddressed antisemitism (and definitely taken advantage of by anti-zionists, zionists, islamophobes etc), a pretty typical trajectory of anyone who grows up in a muslim-majority society or adjacent and not an asshole, is to actually become a pretty solid pro-Israel person, even a zionist. Not even fronting - I'm talking "extremely energetic discussions slash arguments" levels with incredible degree of sophistication and knowledge.
What happens next honestly depends on their future reading and exposure. Unfortunately Israeli fascism is real, and echoes & overlaps the fascist discourse back home, even outright military engagements (check in with your Turkish and Indonesian friends) so usually it might take some years but most of them complete the cycle to becoming pro-palestinian because the global south experience provides the lens I mentioned above. Consequently, if you do find them, you cannot find a more sympathetic group of pro-Palestinian pro-Israel supporters who've managed to do the intellectual and emotive work to land where they land.
(no prizes for guessing how I've formed my analysis, heh.)
posted by cendawanita at 10:09 PM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Addressing an online summit of the Brics group, Xi said only a two-state solution could bring lasting peace.
I'll be frank, having it done at BRICS doesn't engender me with a lot of confidence, the grouping with no real institutional heft and seriousness that despite fanfare (this year in fact) Indonesia LITERALLY decided to not join at the very last moment (on the week itself) because they could read the direction China and Russia wanted to take it. Indonesia, the country that has done actual aid and humanitarian work in the occupied territories. In the meantime, like Anwar, Jokowi managed to use APEC to talk publicly and directly to Biden's face about the current situation. (still crickets from KSA and the Emirates, but I'm sure they're sad and distressed about it.)
But every time I try to engage with pro-Palestinian activism I am met with people who are not only antisemitic, but are so antisemitic that they don't believe they could possibly be antisemitic because they don't believe antisemitism is real, and it's scary and exhausting and I'm so tired.
Oh yeah, I completely resonate with this, from the Muslim-majority side of things. IN FACT, the big secret (or I'm one of the few who've actually articulated it - certainly even locals here act surprised when this is pointed out) in the Muslim world these days, due to the rampant and unaddressed antisemitism (and definitely taken advantage of by anti-zionists, zionists, islamophobes etc), a pretty typical trajectory of anyone who grows up in a muslim-majority society or adjacent and not an asshole, is to actually become a pretty solid pro-Israel person, even a zionist. Not even fronting - I'm talking "extremely energetic discussions slash arguments" levels with incredible degree of sophistication and knowledge.
What happens next honestly depends on their future reading and exposure. Unfortunately Israeli fascism is real, and echoes & overlaps the fascist discourse back home, even outright military engagements (check in with your Turkish and Indonesian friends) so usually it might take some years but most of them complete the cycle to becoming pro-palestinian because the global south experience provides the lens I mentioned above. Consequently, if you do find them, you cannot find a more sympathetic group of pro-Palestinian pro-Israel supporters who've managed to do the intellectual and emotive work to land where they land.
(no prizes for guessing how I've formed my analysis, heh.)
posted by cendawanita at 10:09 PM on November 21, 2023 [11 favorites]
Asking people to recognize the victims of the Oct. 7 attack and condemn that attack is not asking people to "consider it from the viewpoint of the oppressor"; it's asking them to recognize their humanity as well as those who are being killed by Israel.
Yeah, but asking people to accept the carpet bombing campaign as "necessary'" or "Israel has a right to settle-defense" and thus the whole campaign is justified, that is kinda carrying water for the current genocide, is asking people to consider the viewpoint of the oppressor. And that absolutely is happening too.
posted by Dysk at 10:44 PM on November 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
Yeah, but asking people to accept the carpet bombing campaign as "necessary'" or "Israel has a right to settle-defense" and thus the whole campaign is justified, that is kinda carrying water for the current genocide, is asking people to consider the viewpoint of the oppressor. And that absolutely is happening too.
posted by Dysk at 10:44 PM on November 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
A couple of takes (i haven't seen any Israeli ones being surfaced by my feed yet)
Sherifa Zuhur (posting a tweet plus her own commentary)
Dr. Mamoun Fandy:
ما ادى الى الهدنة : ١- نصر استراتيجي لحماس يوم 7/10 نقل القضيه الفلسطينية الى الواجهة ، ٢- إسرائيل سقطت في مصيده الحرب البريه مع مقاومة شرسة ومدربه ، ٣- تغير البئية الإستراتيجية العالمية وخسارة معركة الرأي العام في الغرب ، ٤- إسرائيل لن تستطع دفع فاتورة قتلاها في غزة، ٥- مفاوض حمساوي جيد يعيد الاسرى قطرة قطرة.
بعد الهدنة ستعود اسرائيل الى حربها من الجو والتي لا تستهدف غزة بل تحاول أن تخيف دول الجوار. ولكن بما أن نصر حماس حطم اسطورة الجيش الذي لا يقهر والمخابرات التي لا تنام ، فإن هذا الاسلوب من الترهيب للاقليم لم يعد ينطلي على احد، إلا من انبطح من أول طلقه
(You might not understand that ppl in the region consider the prisoner deal a win for Hamas)
Translation (google):
What led to the truce: 1- A strategic victory for Hamas on 10/7 that brought the Palestinian issue to the forefront, 2- Israel fell into the trap of a ground war with fierce and trained resistance, 3- A change in the global strategic environment and losing the battle of public opinion in the West, 4- Israel will not It cannot pay the bill for its deaths in Gaza. 5- A good Hamas negotiator returns the prisoners drop by drop.
After the truce, Israel will return to its war from the air, which does not target Gaza, but rather tries to intimidate neighboring countries. But since Hamas’s victory shattered the myth of the invincible army and the never-sleep intelligence, this method of intimidation in the region no longer deceives anyone, except those who fell down from the first shot.
US Politico: Biden admin officials see proof their strategy is working in hostage deal - But the administration remains wary about Netanyahu’s endgame and seeming lack of a plan for what to do once Hamas is defeated. There was no sense that the pause would turn into a lengthier cease-fire, a senior administration official said. And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel.
Israel is unlikely to ramp down its military operation in Gaza when the temporary pause ends, experts say. Israeli officials have vowed to continue the offensive until it destroys Hamas, arguing in some cases that the campaign from the enclave’s north to the south helped the hostage negotiations by making a halt more attractive.
Also surfaced to me late, maybe all the clowning from all the muslims did something (and at BRICS no less! 😂): Saudi Crown Prince calls on all countries to stop arms exports to Israel
posted by cendawanita at 11:33 PM on November 21, 2023
Sherifa Zuhur (posting a tweet plus her own commentary)
Dr. Mamoun Fandy:
ما ادى الى الهدنة : ١- نصر استراتيجي لحماس يوم 7/10 نقل القضيه الفلسطينية الى الواجهة ، ٢- إسرائيل سقطت في مصيده الحرب البريه مع مقاومة شرسة ومدربه ، ٣- تغير البئية الإستراتيجية العالمية وخسارة معركة الرأي العام في الغرب ، ٤- إسرائيل لن تستطع دفع فاتورة قتلاها في غزة، ٥- مفاوض حمساوي جيد يعيد الاسرى قطرة قطرة.
بعد الهدنة ستعود اسرائيل الى حربها من الجو والتي لا تستهدف غزة بل تحاول أن تخيف دول الجوار. ولكن بما أن نصر حماس حطم اسطورة الجيش الذي لا يقهر والمخابرات التي لا تنام ، فإن هذا الاسلوب من الترهيب للاقليم لم يعد ينطلي على احد، إلا من انبطح من أول طلقه
(You might not understand that ppl in the region consider the prisoner deal a win for Hamas)
Translation (google):
What led to the truce: 1- A strategic victory for Hamas on 10/7 that brought the Palestinian issue to the forefront, 2- Israel fell into the trap of a ground war with fierce and trained resistance, 3- A change in the global strategic environment and losing the battle of public opinion in the West, 4- Israel will not It cannot pay the bill for its deaths in Gaza. 5- A good Hamas negotiator returns the prisoners drop by drop.
After the truce, Israel will return to its war from the air, which does not target Gaza, but rather tries to intimidate neighboring countries. But since Hamas’s victory shattered the myth of the invincible army and the never-sleep intelligence, this method of intimidation in the region no longer deceives anyone, except those who fell down from the first shot.
US Politico: Biden admin officials see proof their strategy is working in hostage deal - But the administration remains wary about Netanyahu’s endgame and seeming lack of a plan for what to do once Hamas is defeated. There was no sense that the pause would turn into a lengthier cease-fire, a senior administration official said. And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel.
Israel is unlikely to ramp down its military operation in Gaza when the temporary pause ends, experts say. Israeli officials have vowed to continue the offensive until it destroys Hamas, arguing in some cases that the campaign from the enclave’s north to the south helped the hostage negotiations by making a halt more attractive.
Also surfaced to me late, maybe all the clowning from all the muslims did something (and at BRICS no less! 😂): Saudi Crown Prince calls on all countries to stop arms exports to Israel
posted by cendawanita at 11:33 PM on November 21, 2023
And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza and the opportunity to further illuminate the devastation there and turn public opinion on Israel.
If you're worried that journalists might get to see and report the truth, you're engaged in evil.
posted by Dysk at 11:51 PM on November 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
If you're worried that journalists might get to see and report the truth, you're engaged in evil.
posted by Dysk at 11:51 PM on November 21, 2023 [14 favorites]
And there was some concern in the administration about an unintended consequence of the pause: that it would allow journalists broader access to Gaza
oh it's the admirable American commitment to a free press.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:54 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
oh it's the admirable American commitment to a free press.
posted by busted_crayons at 1:54 AM on November 22, 2023 [4 favorites]
Why are so many Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails?
One in every five Palestinians has been arrested and charged under the 1,600 military orders that control every aspect of the lives of Palestinians living under the Israeli military occupation. That incarceration rate doubles for Palestinian men — two in every five have been arrested.posted by clawsoon at 4:30 AM on November 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
By comparison, in the United States, the country notorious for the world’s largest prison population, one in 200 people is imprisoned. The imprisonment rate among Black Americans is more than three times the overall rate — but even then is a tiny fraction of an average Palestinian’s likelihood of spending time in jail...
The order, which is still in use in the occupied West Bank, outlaws the participation and organisation of protests, printing and distributing political material, waving flags and other political symbols, and any activity that demonstrates sympathy for an organisation deemed illegal under military orders.
Three years later, another military order (378) was issued by the Israeli government. This established military courts, and basically outlawed all forms of Palestinian resistance to the Israeli occupation as “terrorism”...
Since the outbreak of the second Intifada in 2000, more than 12,000 Palestinian children have been detained by Israeli forces...
The most common charge is throwing stones, which is punishable by a maximum punishment of 20 years...
The imprisonment rate among Black Americans is more than three times the overall rate — but even then is a tiny fraction of an average Palestinian’s likelihood of spending time in jail...
"A tiny fraction" appears to be inaccurate, since the lifetime chance of a Black American male spending time in jail is probably somewhere in the range of one in three or one in four.
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
"A tiny fraction" appears to be inaccurate, since the lifetime chance of a Black American male spending time in jail is probably somewhere in the range of one in three or one in four.
posted by clawsoon at 4:38 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
Israel-Hamas war is deadliest conflict on record for reporters, says watchdog
The IDF’s offensive in Gaza has killed 48 members of the press and caused a ‘news blackout’, says Committee to Protect Journalists.
That dreadful and shameful number has now increased.
IFJ Deputy General Secretary Tim Dawson said: “It is widely believed among journalists in Gaza that they, and their families are being deliberately targeted by Israeli soldiers and rocket fire. In the febrile atmosphere of war, it is vital that the Israeli Government answers these accusations, and commits itself to protecting the welfare of journalists in the future”.
posted by adamvasco at 6:42 AM on November 22, 2023
The IDF’s offensive in Gaza has killed 48 members of the press and caused a ‘news blackout’, says Committee to Protect Journalists.
That dreadful and shameful number has now increased.
IFJ Deputy General Secretary Tim Dawson said: “It is widely believed among journalists in Gaza that they, and their families are being deliberately targeted by Israeli soldiers and rocket fire. In the febrile atmosphere of war, it is vital that the Israeli Government answers these accusations, and commits itself to protecting the welfare of journalists in the future”.
posted by adamvasco at 6:42 AM on November 22, 2023
Hostage Families Subjected to Bizarre Screaming Match and Forced Hug in Israeli Parliament
Lawmakers from the extremist Otzma Yehudit party, which is pushing for the new capital punishment legislation, ignored the families’ fears at the hearing, according to The Jerusalem Post. A man whose wife and daughter are being held in Gaza begged for the lawmakers to stop “talking about killing Arabs and start speaking about saving Jews,” The Times of Israel reports.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 7:29 AM on November 22, 2023 [14 favorites]
“You have no monopoly over pain,” Otzma Yehudit lawmaker Almog Cohen shouted back. “We have also buried more than 50 friends.” Cohen reportedly continued: “My friend is a hostage in Gaza, and by the way, he’s never heard of you. Don’t talk about us wanting to kill Arabs. We didn’t go to kill them on that Shabbat [Oct. 7]; they came to kill us.”
Cohen’s Otzma Yehudit colleague Limor Son Har-Melech also allegedly yelled at the relatives: “You are silencing other families.” Earlier in the hearing, another lawmaker from the party, Tzvika Fogel—who also acts as the committee’s chairman—accused anyone opposing the legislation of “representing Hamas more than they represent the State of Israel.”
When one hostage’s family member asked Fogel if he believed the families were being used by Hamas, Fogel answered: “I am hinting that Hamas is trying to exploit you, yes. And I’m not hinting. I’m saying it openly.”
Bizarrely, National Security Minister and Otzma Yehudit leader Itamar Ben-Gvir appeared to construe the highly confrontational session as harmonious. In a post on X, Ben-Gvir posted a photo of him hugging one of the relatives along with the caption: “We love and embrace the families of the abductees.”
Gil Dickmann, the man being hugged by Ben-Gvir in the image, wrote a scathing response. “Take your hands off me,” Dickmann, whose cousin Carmel Gat was taken on Oct. 7, said. “My look here says it all. I told you: don’t hug me. You hugged anyway. I told you: Don’t put our loved ones at risk. Still, you took a risk. All for the picture.” Dickmann also accused Ben-Gvir of having “no limits.” “Everyone sees that you are making a circus about the blood of our families,” Dickmann added. “It’s not too late. Stop.”
NYT, 2006 — Iraq Becomes Deadliest of Modern Wars for Journalists:
Since the start of the war in 2003, 71 journalists have been killed in Iraq, a figure that does not even include the more than two dozen members of news media support staff who have also died, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. That number is more than the 63 killed in Vietnam, the 17 killed in Korea, and even the 69 killed in World War II, according to Freedom Forum, a nonpartisan free speech advocacy group.
Editors should resist this framing, as when it doesn't pan out it detracts from the message.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:16 AM on November 22, 2023
Since the start of the war in 2003, 71 journalists have been killed in Iraq, a figure that does not even include the more than two dozen members of news media support staff who have also died, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. That number is more than the 63 killed in Vietnam, the 17 killed in Korea, and even the 69 killed in World War II, according to Freedom Forum, a nonpartisan free speech advocacy group.
Editors should resist this framing, as when it doesn't pan out it detracts from the message.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:16 AM on November 22, 2023
I'm unable to read the NYT article you posted, but is it possible the framing (71 journalists killed in Iraq since the start of the war in 2003, and from what you've posted the article was written in 2006) is appropriate, given the number of journalists killed in just over a month of the conflict we are discussing? That does seem unprecedented: 48 members of the press, killed, in under 60 days.
posted by elkevelvet at 8:24 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:24 AM on November 22, 2023 [3 favorites]
That would make sense. But as with the comparisons to historical precedents, or the debates over types of oppression, there is a frustrating pull to talk about this conflict in absolutes and superlatives. Despite how 'complicated' the issues are also typically said to be.
'Among the deadliest' is indisputable, same with 'segregated' (instead of arguing over which model of segregation). I feel like it would be cannier to use language that defers some of these side debates that sort of dissipate solidarity.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:52 AM on November 22, 2023
'Among the deadliest' is indisputable, same with 'segregated' (instead of arguing over which model of segregation). I feel like it would be cannier to use language that defers some of these side debates that sort of dissipate solidarity.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:52 AM on November 22, 2023
Editors should resist this framing, as when it doesn't pan out it detracts from the message.
Editors should resist rewriting the relevant press releases (and maybe mefites should resist linking to utter rags like the Grauniad). From the actual source:
"The first month of the Israel-Gaza war is now the deadliest month for journalists since CPJ began documenting journalist fatalities in 1992."
71 deaths in three years hardly moves the needle on that. It is not merely "among the deadliest" - journalists are being killed at an unprecedented rate.
posted by Dysk at 10:02 AM on November 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
Editors should resist rewriting the relevant press releases (and maybe mefites should resist linking to utter rags like the Grauniad). From the actual source:
"The first month of the Israel-Gaza war is now the deadliest month for journalists since CPJ began documenting journalist fatalities in 1992."
71 deaths in three years hardly moves the needle on that. It is not merely "among the deadliest" - journalists are being killed at an unprecedented rate.
posted by Dysk at 10:02 AM on November 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
if you look at the CPJ's statistics it basically looks like lists about 7 killed journalists per month if you calculated it over the whole world in the entire 30 year time span. It looks like there have been more journalists killed in Gaza in the current war than there were killed in any given year in Syria.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:26 AM on November 22, 2023
posted by BungaDunga at 10:26 AM on November 22, 2023
the deadliest year for journalists in Syria was 2012, with 31 under "motive confirmed"; there are 43 in that category in "Israel and Occupied Palestinian Territory" in 2023.
the war in Gaza has been more deadly to journalists over <2 months than the Syrian war was in a year
posted by BungaDunga at 10:31 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
the war in Gaza has been more deadly to journalists over <2 months than the Syrian war was in a year
posted by BungaDunga at 10:31 AM on November 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The other day I saw headlines that an Anishinaabe curator at the Art Gallery of Ontario, Wanda Nanibush, was suddenly and mysteriously out of a job. I guessed that it was maybe another "Pretendian" case, where a decorated Indigenous person turns out to have been white all along. But, nope, turns out it was because she has used the words "genocide" and "colonialism" to describe Israel's actions.
Hopkins noted that Nanibush has been a vocal critic of “the insidious nature of colonialism and the ongoing violences of settler colonialism.”posted by clawsoon at 1:26 PM on November 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
“What her departure implies is that this is no longer a comfortable conversation for large institutions and that the work that many of us have been doing to create more just institutions is now no longer stable and safe,” Hopkins continued. “When topics like decolonization are rendered taboo, the future for Native voices in this field is bleak.”
Harvard Law Review Editors Vote to Kill Article About Genocide in Gaza: "The article on the Gaza war and the Nakba was commissioned, edited, fact-checked, and prepared for publication — but was then blocked amid a climate of fear."
posted by BungaDunga at 1:53 PM on November 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 1:53 PM on November 22, 2023 [8 favorites]
jb: As for comparisons: none of the situations you have cited have violence on both sides. None of the leftist discussions of the Rohingya genocide, residential schools, etc., have praised violence committed against the civilian members of the oppressing state, because it hasn't happened.
The Rohingya have been fighting back for decades, from Rohingya mujahideen in the 1950s to the Arakan Rohingya Salvation Army over the past decade. I don't know enough about the situation to say whether the Burmese label of "terrorist" fits, but I know the violence hasn't only been one way.
And most of the oppression and colonization of North America was justified at the time by the fact that Indigenous people fought back sometimes. Attacks by European settlers on Indigenous civilians were minimized, while attacks by Indigenous people on European civilians were magnified as propaganda for why they needed to have their land taken away and their cultures erased.
I'm not saying that what Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza is exactly like South African apartheid or undisputed cases of settler colonialism in North America (including those that I'm part of and have benefited from), but some of it sure does seem to rhyme.
posted by clawsoon at 2:06 PM on November 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
The Rohingya have been fighting back for decades, from Rohingya mujahideen in the 1950s to the Arakan Rohingya Salvation Army over the past decade. I don't know enough about the situation to say whether the Burmese label of "terrorist" fits, but I know the violence hasn't only been one way.
And most of the oppression and colonization of North America was justified at the time by the fact that Indigenous people fought back sometimes. Attacks by European settlers on Indigenous civilians were minimized, while attacks by Indigenous people on European civilians were magnified as propaganda for why they needed to have their land taken away and their cultures erased.
I'm not saying that what Israel is doing in the West Bank and Gaza is exactly like South African apartheid or undisputed cases of settler colonialism in North America (including those that I'm part of and have benefited from), but some of it sure does seem to rhyme.
posted by clawsoon at 2:06 PM on November 22, 2023 [11 favorites]
BungaDunga: Harvard Law Review Editors Vote to Kill Article About Genocide in Gaza: "The article on the Gaza war and the Nakba was commissioned, edited, fact-checked, and prepared for publication — but was then blocked amid a climate of fear."
The article has been subsequently published in The Nation, under the title, The Harvard Law Review Refused to Run This Piece About Genocide in Gaza.
Meanwhile, I am also reading a book, freely available online, recommended by another Mefite, Thatʹs Funny You Donʹt Look Anti‐Semitic: An anti‐racist analysis of left anti‐semitism [PDF].
posted by clawsoon at 2:57 PM on November 22, 2023 [17 favorites]
The article has been subsequently published in The Nation, under the title, The Harvard Law Review Refused to Run This Piece About Genocide in Gaza.
Meanwhile, I am also reading a book, freely available online, recommended by another Mefite, Thatʹs Funny You Donʹt Look Anti‐Semitic: An anti‐racist analysis of left anti‐semitism [PDF].
posted by clawsoon at 2:57 PM on November 22, 2023 [17 favorites]
clawsoon, that is an interesting read from the first paragraphs. Thank you for sharing that.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:54 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 3:54 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Parts of this makes an amusing tangent: (SCMP) Malaysia, Singapore users on X slam Israeli activist’s bid to sow discord between neighbours: ‘we’re practically siblings’ - Israel War Room’s post described Malaysians as ‘venomous and hateful to Jews and the Jewish state’ because Israel helped Singapore set up its armed forces after independence in 1965
The post has united Malaysians and Singaporeans, who say both countries are an example of a successful ‘two-state solution’ and benefit from having strong bilateral ties.
Anything about Mahathir's statements in the article you can ascribe to broken clock syndrome, especially in view that even with no diplomatic relations we do pursue trade relations especially with Israel with his tenure being no different.
For context on the Singapore aside in the article: Why Singapore is ‘friend of all, enemy of none’ in Israel-Gaza war
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
The post has united Malaysians and Singaporeans, who say both countries are an example of a successful ‘two-state solution’ and benefit from having strong bilateral ties.
Anything about Mahathir's statements in the article you can ascribe to broken clock syndrome, especially in view that even with no diplomatic relations we do pursue trade relations especially with Israel with his tenure being no different.
For context on the Singapore aside in the article: Why Singapore is ‘friend of all, enemy of none’ in Israel-Gaza war
posted by cendawanita at 5:44 PM on November 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
Looks like the ceasefire might not happen until Friday, if it happens.
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on November 22, 2023
posted by interogative mood at 6:23 PM on November 22, 2023
From the general:
‘Can regain our soul’: Relief and fear in Gaza ahead of Israel truce
Some hope to find missing loved ones, return home and grieve for killed relatives. Others just want to get some sleep.
To the specific:
Dena Takruri: AHED TAMIMI UPDATE- Israel’s military court extended her remand another 6 days. This means she’s been held since Nov 6 without being charged.
A lawyer saw her yesterday. Ahed described still having bruises on her body from being beat in Israeli detention 2 weeks ago.
The conditions in Damon Prison, where Ahed Tamimi is being held, are terrible. Palestinian female prisoners are denied food, blankets, basic necessities, family visits, and access to lawyers. The cells are overcrowded. They have no access to news and are isolated from the world
I spent hours talking to Ahed re: her time in Israeli prison in 2017-18. It’s documented in our book They Called Me a Lioness: A Palestinian Girl’s Fight For Freedom.
As bad as conditions were then, they’ve now reached alarming new heights. Her being physically beaten is a first
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 PM on November 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
‘Can regain our soul’: Relief and fear in Gaza ahead of Israel truce
Some hope to find missing loved ones, return home and grieve for killed relatives. Others just want to get some sleep.
To the specific:
Dena Takruri: AHED TAMIMI UPDATE- Israel’s military court extended her remand another 6 days. This means she’s been held since Nov 6 without being charged.
A lawyer saw her yesterday. Ahed described still having bruises on her body from being beat in Israeli detention 2 weeks ago.
The conditions in Damon Prison, where Ahed Tamimi is being held, are terrible. Palestinian female prisoners are denied food, blankets, basic necessities, family visits, and access to lawyers. The cells are overcrowded. They have no access to news and are isolated from the world
I spent hours talking to Ahed re: her time in Israeli prison in 2017-18. It’s documented in our book They Called Me a Lioness: A Palestinian Girl’s Fight For Freedom.
As bad as conditions were then, they’ve now reached alarming new heights. Her being physically beaten is a first
posted by cendawanita at 9:54 PM on November 22, 2023 [5 favorites]
Noorji: Many Gazans don’t know about the ceasefire delay because Israel has cut off telecommunications in many areas of Gaza. Tomorrow is going to be a bloodbath. People will go in search of provisions, thinking they’re safe, but they won’t be. We’re going to witness another massacre.
Also, new Chotiner interview with Senator Ben Cardin, the Democratic chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
posted by cendawanita at 10:18 PM on November 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, new Chotiner interview with Senator Ben Cardin, the Democratic chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
posted by cendawanita at 10:18 PM on November 22, 2023 [6 favorites]
new Chotiner interview
Always fun seeing someone who was probably expecting typical softball access-journalism style interviewing get expertly filleted.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:36 AM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Always fun seeing someone who was probably expecting typical softball access-journalism style interviewing get expertly filleted.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:36 AM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
As bad as conditions were then, they’ve now reached alarming new heights. Her being physically beaten is a first
Related: Israeli Gov't Approves Temporary Plan to Address Overcrowding of Palestinian Prisoners
...and by "address", they mean:
Related: Israeli Gov't Approves Temporary Plan to Address Overcrowding of Palestinian Prisoners
...and by "address", they mean:
...enable the country’s prisons to take in new inmates even if they are at full capacity...posted by clawsoon at 3:01 AM on November 23, 2023 [5 favorites]
...allows those suspected or convicted of national security-related offenses to be placed on mattresses on the floor and other measures that reduce their living space...
“On the eve of the outbreak of the war, there was high occupancy in the prisons,” the notes state. “Against that backdrop, the sharp increase in the number of detainees since the beginning of the war has produced a substantial increase in crowding at the prison facilities in a way that doesn’t make it possible to meet the provisions of the law” regarding minimum living space per prisoner.
The requirements are the result of a 2017 ruling by the High Court of Justice that provides that each prisoner be given at least 3.5 square meters (37.7 square feet) of space...
Security prisoners are not permitted family visits at the moment or the use of public telephones, and electricity for all electrical devices has been cut off....
Always fun seeing someone who was probably expecting typical softball access-journalism style interviewing get expertly filleted.
Cardin is probably most thankful today for the fact that he's not running for re-election, because "Sir, you're the head of the Foreign Relations Committee" might as well have become his political tombstone.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:45 AM on November 23, 2023
Cardin is probably most thankful today for the fact that he's not running for re-election, because "Sir, you're the head of the Foreign Relations Committee" might as well have become his political tombstone.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 4:45 AM on November 23, 2023
And meanwhile the Israeli government continues its slide into fascism:
Israel's Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi submitted a proposal to take action against Haaretz by ending the publication of government notices in Haaretz. Karhi, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, said the newspaper was "sabotaging Israel in wartime" and was an "inflammatory mouthpiece for Israel’s enemies."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:35 PM on November 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
Israel's Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi submitted a proposal to take action against Haaretz by ending the publication of government notices in Haaretz. Karhi, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, said the newspaper was "sabotaging Israel in wartime" and was an "inflammatory mouthpiece for Israel’s enemies."
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:35 PM on November 23, 2023 [10 favorites]
Another reason that the worst sort of people like war, because it gives them plausible cover for their crimes.
posted by clawsoon at 8:06 PM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 8:06 PM on November 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Asia-side stuff:
Israel-Gaza war: in Singapore, a rare debate among elite emerges as concerned citizens tread a tightrope
•City state striking a tough balancing act between maintaining hard-earned social cohesion and allowing its people to voice and exchange views on war
•The establishment appears to have decided to show diversity of views within its ranks in discussing the conflict
@NTarnopolsky translating/summarizing this Ynet article: 💥Unrelated to the release of Israeli hostages, Al-Arabi Al-Jadid reports that Tehran has provided Bangkok with information about 23 Thai hostages who Hamas may be willing to release unconditionally. Thirty-two Thai citizens were murdered in Hamas' attack.
Someone then asked what the Thai reaction has been like and another person responded with this article from The Diplomat: While public opinion within Thailand may lean towards support for the people of Gaza, the government’s neutrality allows its citizens to express their concerns, despite Israeli concerns. This delicate balancing act enables Thailand to play a role in international peace and conflict resolution while safeguarding its own interests.
Pro-Palestine or a trend? China’s stance on Israel-Hamas war splits opinion: But within a week of the attack, Chinese diplomats began to call Israel’s bombardment of Gaza a form of collective punishment and insist that the country’s right to self-defence should be guided by international law and not come at the expense of innocent civilians.
Since then, Beijing has called for multilateral and peaceful solutions to the conflict of the kind promoted by the United Nations, where Beijing took the helm of the powerful Security Council earlier this month.
[...]Still, there have been noticeable shifts in Beijing’s rhetoric towards statements that are more critical of Israel, said Benjamin Ho Tze Ern, an assistant professor at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies’ (RSIS) China programme, such as its statement that the country had “gone beyond self-defence”.
Ahmed Aboudouh, an associate fellow at Chatham House’s Middle East and North Africa Programme, said in a recent commentary that China was clearly signalling its support of the Palestinian side.
Just before ceasefire, al-Jazeera: The Gaza Ministry of Health reported on Thursday 27 fatalities from a strike on the Abu Hussein School. Run by the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), the school in the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza was housing many displaced Palestinians.
Israeli forces also launched fresh attacks on the Indonesian Hospital, targeting the main entrance and power generators.
And apparently there are now reports (waiting for filed news reports) that the ceasefire is broken with each side is claiming the other broke it first.
Back to outside the conflict area: Hillel BC says independent contractor distributed “offensive” stickers on campus: But, in a statement to The Ubyssey, UBC wrote the university was made aware an independent contractor “that has worked with Hillel BC” distributed the stickers and that “the stickers have exposed UBC Social Justice Centre members to vitriol and malice, which is unacceptable.”
Stickers distributed on campus last week read “I (heart) Hamas” alongside the UBC Social Justice Centre’s (SJC) name and logo. Posts of the sticker circulated on X (formerly Twitter) over the weekend, generating thousands of impressions.
-- as summarised by Marc Owen Jones: Quite astonishing. Ths British Columbia branch of Hillel (an organisation that promotes Jewish life on campus) has released a statement saying one or their members (unbeknownst to them) was found to have put "I love Hamas" stickers around campus. That's really dark #deception.
posted by cendawanita at 12:34 AM on November 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel-Gaza war: in Singapore, a rare debate among elite emerges as concerned citizens tread a tightrope
•City state striking a tough balancing act between maintaining hard-earned social cohesion and allowing its people to voice and exchange views on war
•The establishment appears to have decided to show diversity of views within its ranks in discussing the conflict
@NTarnopolsky translating/summarizing this Ynet article: 💥Unrelated to the release of Israeli hostages, Al-Arabi Al-Jadid reports that Tehran has provided Bangkok with information about 23 Thai hostages who Hamas may be willing to release unconditionally. Thirty-two Thai citizens were murdered in Hamas' attack.
Someone then asked what the Thai reaction has been like and another person responded with this article from The Diplomat: While public opinion within Thailand may lean towards support for the people of Gaza, the government’s neutrality allows its citizens to express their concerns, despite Israeli concerns. This delicate balancing act enables Thailand to play a role in international peace and conflict resolution while safeguarding its own interests.
Pro-Palestine or a trend? China’s stance on Israel-Hamas war splits opinion: But within a week of the attack, Chinese diplomats began to call Israel’s bombardment of Gaza a form of collective punishment and insist that the country’s right to self-defence should be guided by international law and not come at the expense of innocent civilians.
Since then, Beijing has called for multilateral and peaceful solutions to the conflict of the kind promoted by the United Nations, where Beijing took the helm of the powerful Security Council earlier this month.
[...]Still, there have been noticeable shifts in Beijing’s rhetoric towards statements that are more critical of Israel, said Benjamin Ho Tze Ern, an assistant professor at the S Rajaratnam School of International Studies’ (RSIS) China programme, such as its statement that the country had “gone beyond self-defence”.
Ahmed Aboudouh, an associate fellow at Chatham House’s Middle East and North Africa Programme, said in a recent commentary that China was clearly signalling its support of the Palestinian side.
Just before ceasefire, al-Jazeera: The Gaza Ministry of Health reported on Thursday 27 fatalities from a strike on the Abu Hussein School. Run by the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees (UNRWA), the school in the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza was housing many displaced Palestinians.
Israeli forces also launched fresh attacks on the Indonesian Hospital, targeting the main entrance and power generators.
And apparently there are now reports (waiting for filed news reports) that the ceasefire is broken with each side is claiming the other broke it first.
Back to outside the conflict area: Hillel BC says independent contractor distributed “offensive” stickers on campus: But, in a statement to The Ubyssey, UBC wrote the university was made aware an independent contractor “that has worked with Hillel BC” distributed the stickers and that “the stickers have exposed UBC Social Justice Centre members to vitriol and malice, which is unacceptable.”
Stickers distributed on campus last week read “I (heart) Hamas” alongside the UBC Social Justice Centre’s (SJC) name and logo. Posts of the sticker circulated on X (formerly Twitter) over the weekend, generating thousands of impressions.
-- as summarised by Marc Owen Jones: Quite astonishing. Ths British Columbia branch of Hillel (an organisation that promotes Jewish life on campus) has released a statement saying one or their members (unbeknownst to them) was found to have put "I love Hamas" stickers around campus. That's really dark #deception.
posted by cendawanita at 12:34 AM on November 24, 2023 [2 favorites]
From Guardian live updates: Israel to continue 'intense' fighting for at least two months after 'short' truce, says defence minister
Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has said the military will resume fighting against Hamas “with intensity” for at least two more months once the “short” temporary pause ends.
Gallant, addressing troops of the Israeli navy special operations unit on Thursday, was quoted by the Times of Israel as saying:
What you will see in the coming days is first the release of hostages. This respite will be short.
He told troops to “organise, get ready, investigate, resupply arms, and get ready to continue” during the ceasefire, adding:
There will be a continuation, because we need to complete the victory and create the impetus for the next groups of hostages, who will only come back as a result of pressure.
“At least another two months of fighting is expected,” he added.
From Mouin Rabbani, co-editor of Jadaliyya: Israeli failures, US charades and a negotiated truce:Yet the available reports about the deal suggest otherwise: Israel has committed to releasing three times as many imprisoned women and children as the Palestinians; no Israeli soldiers are included in the exchange; significantly more humanitarian supplies, including fuel, will reach the Gaza Strip; the exchange of captives will be implemented during a continuous four-day truce rather than one in which the slaughter is paused for a brief period each day; and Israeli jets and drones will be prohibited from using the airspace over the Gaza Strip for several hours each day.
This is quite close to the deal initially offered by Hamas several weeks ago, and it appears the bulk of its demands have been conceded by Israel and the US. If the adage that negotiations reflect reality on the ground rather than overturning it applies, Hamas – in contrast to the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip, which has been Israel’s main target – seems far from desperate. Instead, it appears sufficiently confident to stick to its priorities until these are accepted by the US and Israel.
Although the Gaza Strip has been substantially destroyed, Hamas has yet to be significantly degraded, and the Israeli army has yet to kill more Hamas commanders than United Nations staff.
If Israel is confident it can once again flout US policy without consequences, it will. This could take the form of sabotaging the truce or resuming hostilities to ensure it is not extended. Farther afield, the Israeli-Lebanese front also seems to be rapidly heating up.
So further escalation is likely, but it is also possible that the implementation of this deal could cause Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government to collapse under a combination of public pressure and internal conflicts among leaders who mutually detest and distrust each other.
---
Netanyahu should be thrown out now, says ex Israeli PM Olmert -Ehud Olmert told Sky News that Netanyahu and his administration were a “real danger” to Israel’s stability and he should be “thrown out” of office during an interview with the channel’s international affairs editor, Dominic Waghorn.
And following Ehud Barak's interview with Christiane Amanpour [which mentioned the tunnel detail as shared earlier in that Tablet article], as summed up by this tweet of the reactions in the attached tiktok video: Israeli society has erupted after former Israeli PM Ehud Barak correctly stated on CNN that Israel built a tunnel network under al-Shifa hospital in the 1980s. They’re calling him a “terrorist” and for his citizenship to be revoked. Truly the world’s most propagandised population
Also on Amanpour (can't find off-twitter copy): “The worst ever.” Those are the stark words of @UNReliefChief Martin Griffiths, about the death and destruction in Gaza. Having worked in the field for decades, he adds “I don’t say that lightly.”
Right after thatt he reminded the audience he started during the Khmer Rouge era.
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on November 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
Israel’s defence minister, Yoav Gallant, has said the military will resume fighting against Hamas “with intensity” for at least two more months once the “short” temporary pause ends.
Gallant, addressing troops of the Israeli navy special operations unit on Thursday, was quoted by the Times of Israel as saying:
What you will see in the coming days is first the release of hostages. This respite will be short.
He told troops to “organise, get ready, investigate, resupply arms, and get ready to continue” during the ceasefire, adding:
There will be a continuation, because we need to complete the victory and create the impetus for the next groups of hostages, who will only come back as a result of pressure.
“At least another two months of fighting is expected,” he added.
From Mouin Rabbani, co-editor of Jadaliyya: Israeli failures, US charades and a negotiated truce:Yet the available reports about the deal suggest otherwise: Israel has committed to releasing three times as many imprisoned women and children as the Palestinians; no Israeli soldiers are included in the exchange; significantly more humanitarian supplies, including fuel, will reach the Gaza Strip; the exchange of captives will be implemented during a continuous four-day truce rather than one in which the slaughter is paused for a brief period each day; and Israeli jets and drones will be prohibited from using the airspace over the Gaza Strip for several hours each day.
This is quite close to the deal initially offered by Hamas several weeks ago, and it appears the bulk of its demands have been conceded by Israel and the US. If the adage that negotiations reflect reality on the ground rather than overturning it applies, Hamas – in contrast to the Palestinian population of the Gaza Strip, which has been Israel’s main target – seems far from desperate. Instead, it appears sufficiently confident to stick to its priorities until these are accepted by the US and Israel.
Although the Gaza Strip has been substantially destroyed, Hamas has yet to be significantly degraded, and the Israeli army has yet to kill more Hamas commanders than United Nations staff.
If Israel is confident it can once again flout US policy without consequences, it will. This could take the form of sabotaging the truce or resuming hostilities to ensure it is not extended. Farther afield, the Israeli-Lebanese front also seems to be rapidly heating up.
So further escalation is likely, but it is also possible that the implementation of this deal could cause Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government to collapse under a combination of public pressure and internal conflicts among leaders who mutually detest and distrust each other.
---
Netanyahu should be thrown out now, says ex Israeli PM Olmert -Ehud Olmert told Sky News that Netanyahu and his administration were a “real danger” to Israel’s stability and he should be “thrown out” of office during an interview with the channel’s international affairs editor, Dominic Waghorn.
And following Ehud Barak's interview with Christiane Amanpour [which mentioned the tunnel detail as shared earlier in that Tablet article], as summed up by this tweet of the reactions in the attached tiktok video: Israeli society has erupted after former Israeli PM Ehud Barak correctly stated on CNN that Israel built a tunnel network under al-Shifa hospital in the 1980s. They’re calling him a “terrorist” and for his citizenship to be revoked. Truly the world’s most propagandised population
Also on Amanpour (can't find off-twitter copy): “The worst ever.” Those are the stark words of @UNReliefChief Martin Griffiths, about the death and destruction in Gaza. Having worked in the field for decades, he adds “I don’t say that lightly.”
Right after thatt he reminded the audience he started during the Khmer Rouge era.
posted by cendawanita at 12:56 AM on November 24, 2023 [8 favorites]
interesting.
Former UN envoy to Yemen linked to mi6, the party to the war.
"Martin Griffiths, a Briton who now runs the United Nations’ humanitarian work, co-founded and advises a private conflict resolution company that “works closely” with MI6. He was until recently the UN special envoy to Yemen."
no doubt this man is done a lot of good and tenuous links to MI6 doesn't say much, really. "Empathy is connecting with the core of humanity … the defining common ingredient which unites all of us, way beyond culture, colour and ideology.
Diplomatic work, information gathering or intelligence work is all about empathy at its core."
He did work with the KR.
"I started off with the Khmer Rouge, working with them - Khmer Rouge run one of the camps on the Thai-Cambodian border - in 1979. I was in UNICEF, working with [the International Committee of the Red Cross]. I was running that camp. So my humanitarian operational experience goes back a very long way. And I think that's incredibly important for this job.
there are quite a few camps set up my guess is he worked at Nong Samet or Nong Chan. Sa Kaeo Refugee Camp. "In an effort to show US support for the Thai response, First Lady Rosalynn Carter visited Thailand with Richard Holbrooke, several members of congress and a group of journalists to tour the camp on 9 November 1979."
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on November 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
Former UN envoy to Yemen linked to mi6, the party to the war.
"Martin Griffiths, a Briton who now runs the United Nations’ humanitarian work, co-founded and advises a private conflict resolution company that “works closely” with MI6. He was until recently the UN special envoy to Yemen."
no doubt this man is done a lot of good and tenuous links to MI6 doesn't say much, really. "Empathy is connecting with the core of humanity … the defining common ingredient which unites all of us, way beyond culture, colour and ideology.
Diplomatic work, information gathering or intelligence work is all about empathy at its core."
He did work with the KR.
"I started off with the Khmer Rouge, working with them - Khmer Rouge run one of the camps on the Thai-Cambodian border - in 1979. I was in UNICEF, working with [the International Committee of the Red Cross]. I was running that camp. So my humanitarian operational experience goes back a very long way. And I think that's incredibly important for this job.
there are quite a few camps set up my guess is he worked at Nong Samet or Nong Chan. Sa Kaeo Refugee Camp. "In an effort to show US support for the Thai response, First Lady Rosalynn Carter visited Thailand with Richard Holbrooke, several members of congress and a group of journalists to tour the camp on 9 November 1979."
posted by clavdivs at 3:23 PM on November 24, 2023 [1 favorite]
The list of Palestinians to be potentially released by Israel has 300 names:
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:39 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
—270 children
—30 women
—233 have not been convicted of anything
—21 are accused of throwing stones
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 6:39 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
In case anyone was still in doubt about Israel's rising fascism: Times of Israel
the national security minister tells Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai to use “an iron fist” against attempts to celebrate prisoner releases or support terrorism, Ben Gvir also tells Shabtai to up police presence in the expected homecoming destinations of released prisoners, for those being released within Israel’s Green Line.
""My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” Ben Gvir says. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism, victory celebrations give backing to those human scum, for those Nazis.”
posted by adamvasco at 8:37 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
the national security minister tells Police Commissioner Kobi Shabtai to use “an iron fist” against attempts to celebrate prisoner releases or support terrorism, Ben Gvir also tells Shabtai to up police presence in the expected homecoming destinations of released prisoners, for those being released within Israel’s Green Line.
""My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,” Ben Gvir says. “Expressions of joy are equivalent to backing terrorism, victory celebrations give backing to those human scum, for those Nazis.”
posted by adamvasco at 8:37 AM on November 25, 2023 [9 favorites]
are we clear now? are we crystal clear on how we can be critical of state actions w/o being antisemitic?
if only these were film villains we could ignore for being ridiculous caricatures
posted by elkevelvet at 8:41 AM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
if only these were film villains we could ignore for being ridiculous caricatures
posted by elkevelvet at 8:41 AM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
if only these were film villains we could ignore for being ridiculous caricatures
I imagine that there are a lot of people who are just now realising that when critics call Israel a fascist apartheid state, it isn't hyperbole.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:44 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I imagine that there are a lot of people who are just now realising that when critics call Israel a fascist apartheid state, it isn't hyperbole.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:44 AM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
elkevelvet, I am not quite sure who you are addressing. Ha'aretz has certainly been modeling how to be critical of Israeli state actions without being antisemitic this entire time, for those who read it.
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days. I suppose people are less inclined to post when there is good news. I am certainly celebrating the release of hostages as well as the release of prisoners who have been convicted of nothing. I hope their families are joyous at their return. I am celebrating this ceasefire and the aid being allowed into Gaza. I hope Israelis are able to use the ceasefire as an opportunity to march Netanyahu from the Prime Minister's office straight to prison, where he belongs, and the ghoulish Ben Gvir along with him.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:55 PM on November 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days. I suppose people are less inclined to post when there is good news. I am certainly celebrating the release of hostages as well as the release of prisoners who have been convicted of nothing. I hope their families are joyous at their return. I am celebrating this ceasefire and the aid being allowed into Gaza. I hope Israelis are able to use the ceasefire as an opportunity to march Netanyahu from the Prime Minister's office straight to prison, where he belongs, and the ghoulish Ben Gvir along with him.
posted by cosmic owl at 1:55 PM on November 25, 2023 [8 favorites]
I imagine that there are a lot of people who are just now realising that when critics call Israel a fascist apartheid state, it isn't hyperbole.
Indeed -- it now seems like a thousand years ago but I'd wager that a majority of people who pay any attention to news from Israel learned for the first time this year that Israel doesn't even have a constitution.
posted by kensington314 at 1:55 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Indeed -- it now seems like a thousand years ago but I'd wager that a majority of people who pay any attention to news from Israel learned for the first time this year that Israel doesn't even have a constitution.
COTLER-WUNSH: (Laughter) OK. What we're seeing is actually far, far beyond the specifics of the reform. Having been a young lawyer myself at the time that the constitutional revolution passed in Israel's parliament, in Knesset, as one basic law, that sort of echoed the beginning of a bill of rights, but did so very, very partially. That happened in the '90s, that constitutional revolution. And a part of what we're seeing now is actually an attempt to renegotiate the checks and balances between the three branches of government in a healthy democracy.
: Israel doesn't have a constitution, right?
COTLER-WUNSH: You are a hundred percent right. Israel does not have a constitution. It has the Declaration of Independence. And I would argue that the fact that that Declaration of Independence was never anchored in law is part of this moment that we've arrived at, at this moment of time.
: Because Israel does not have a constitution, does that make the role of the Supreme Court especially critical when it comes to protecting rights?
COTLER-WUNSH: In fact, it has an incredibly critical role, I agree with you. I would argue, as in every democracy, the judiciary, the executive and the legislative branch have their checks and balances between them. The lack of constitution actually makes this more difficult. And in fact, this incredibly challenging moment very possibly harbors that opportunity.
posted by kensington314 at 1:55 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days.
It's always my sense in the big news threads that people feel they've had their say after a couple weeks, and others who might be participating simply missed the original post and don't know it exists. I considered doing a new FPP just for the hostage deal and news coming from there, but it seemed duplicative and I forget what is the standing policy on how many days an FPP goes on before it closes.
I hope Israelis are able to use the ceasefire as an opportunity to march Netanyahu from the Prime Minister's office straight to prison, where he belongs, and the ghoulish Ben Gvir along with him.
Hear, hear. I wish I could find optimism but I am happy to join you in hope, at least.
posted by kensington314 at 2:02 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's always my sense in the big news threads that people feel they've had their say after a couple weeks, and others who might be participating simply missed the original post and don't know it exists. I considered doing a new FPP just for the hostage deal and news coming from there, but it seemed duplicative and I forget what is the standing policy on how many days an FPP goes on before it closes.
I hope Israelis are able to use the ceasefire as an opportunity to march Netanyahu from the Prime Minister's office straight to prison, where he belongs, and the ghoulish Ben Gvir along with him.
Hear, hear. I wish I could find optimism but I am happy to join you in hope, at least.
posted by kensington314 at 2:02 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
My instructions are clear: there are to be no expressions of joy,”
That is just not humane let alone human.
posted by clavdivs at 2:14 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
That is just not humane let alone human.
posted by clavdivs at 2:14 PM on November 25, 2023 [3 favorites]
Truly the idea that expressing joy is to give comfort to the enemy or encourage them to take additional hostages in perpetuity is so unhinged! Sometimes in life you gotta look at what you just wrote down and get in touch with your soul and make changes accordingly.
I would not want to be in touch with Itamar Ben-Gvir's soul for a moment, though.
posted by kensington314 at 2:23 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would not want to be in touch with Itamar Ben-Gvir's soul for a moment, though.
posted by kensington314 at 2:23 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
so I thought I take a second to examine my own soul and Google something I did not think would happen. Israel bombs a toy factory. this is what I got.
The dolls that defend Palestinian culture.
"Despite having her toy factory raided by Israeli forces, Hilana Abu Sharifeh will not give up on Yasser and Zeina" 2016
no water, no electricity, no fuel, no food, no medicine, no laughter, no toys, no celebration, spotty internet to no internet, no father, no mother, no brother, no sister, no country, no land, nowhere to go.
posted by clavdivs at 2:52 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
The dolls that defend Palestinian culture.
"Despite having her toy factory raided by Israeli forces, Hilana Abu Sharifeh will not give up on Yasser and Zeina" 2016
no water, no electricity, no fuel, no food, no medicine, no laughter, no toys, no celebration, spotty internet to no internet, no father, no mother, no brother, no sister, no country, no land, nowhere to go.
posted by clavdivs at 2:52 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
Israel doesn't even have a constitution
The UK doesn't have a written constitution, either, but it does have a body of legislation with constitutional force (Magna Carta, Bill of Rights 1689, etc etc). Israel has the Basic Laws, which are notably more authoritarian; the British version doesn't have a built-in loophole.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:19 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
The UK doesn't have a written constitution, either, but it does have a body of legislation with constitutional force (Magna Carta, Bill of Rights 1689, etc etc). Israel has the Basic Laws, which are notably more authoritarian; the British version doesn't have a built-in loophole.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:19 PM on November 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days.
I'm still retweeting and boosting news in my other socials - I'm just tired of feeling like I'm the de facto news collector and sharer here in this late stage of the thread, because the news links were piling up even as I'm also doing other things.
posted by cendawanita at 5:35 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm still retweeting and boosting news in my other socials - I'm just tired of feeling like I'm the de facto news collector and sharer here in this late stage of the thread, because the news links were piling up even as I'm also doing other things.
posted by cendawanita at 5:35 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Humans have a remarkable ability to normalize things. Posts and news updates slow, among other things, because the entire horrible situation has lasted long enough to start normalizing. The first time Israel blew up a hospital it was shocking. The fifteenth time? It's Tuesday.
posted by sotonohito at 7:27 PM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by sotonohito at 7:27 PM on November 25, 2023 [4 favorites]
Barcelona mayor cuts ties with Israel, citing Palestinian rights
Spanish and Belgian Prime Ministers call for permanent ceasefire
Spain PM says time to recognize state of Palestine and willing to go ahead as a country if the rest of the EU won't
While the Israeli govt is putting a general restriction to their citizens who were hostages from public comments, the Thai govt has no similar restrictions. This is an interview with the sister of one of the Thai hostages: The statement made by the sister of one of the released Thai hostages:
"He said that he was neither tortured nor assaulted, and he had been fed good food. He was very well taken care of. It seems as though he stayed in a house, not a tunnel."
Apparently the untranslated bit at the end was she saying his clothes wasn't even dirty.
I won't comment on the psychology, but it seems that while there's generally positive sentiment on the part of the Palestinians greeting their detainees and also the Israelis seeming to leave their Hamas captors in relatively positive affect, Israeli telegram chat screenshots weren't nearly as positive. I didn't save them though so feel free to disregard.
Other things I've seen but not saved: far-right accounts sharing some apologia by Andrew Roberts that at least the Nazis aren't as bad as Hamas that gets shared by pro-Israeli accounts so that's where we're at in terms of 2023 Holocaust revisionism. Also some fresh exciting word salad with regards to "Muslim imperialism" being behind the energy to "destroy" Israel, so decolonization language being mainstreamed is going along swimmingly.
Haggai Matar: After weeks of Hasbara telling us not to listen to the "Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza" in terms of casualty rates - Israel now recognizes the the official Palestinian number of 14-15K killed in Gaza, plus thousands of bodies trapped under the rubble, is likely correct
In the meantime, harvest was delayed but Palestinians are using this pause to get into olive harvest season.
This is a month ago but an update to this Electronic Intifada story: Update, 23 October
The Electronic Intifada is now able to publish the entire interview with Yasmin Porat, the Kibbutz Be’eri survivor who told Israeli radio that Israeli security forces “undoubtedly” killed a large number of their own civilians following the Hamas assault on 7 October.
When this article was originally published on 15 October, a recording of the interview was not available on the website of Israeli state broadcaster Kan and was not included in the online edition of Haboker Hazeh for that day, the program that interviewed Porat.
Following the publication of this article, the full interview was uploaded by Kan. It includes several extra minutes that were edited out of the version of the interview that we had originally obtained and translated.
In the full-length interview, Porat states that the Palestinian fighters – who she says treated her and the other Israeli civilians “humanely” – intended to “kidnap us to Gaza. Not to murder us.”
She adds that “after we were there for two hours with the abductors, the police arrive. A gun battle takes place that our police started.”
You can listen to the full interview with English subtitles here in the video below. A full transcript is at the bottom of this page.
Also of note is that Mondoweiss on 22 October published a story based on accounts in Israeli media indicating that Israeli forces were responsible for many Israeli civilian and military deaths following the 7 October Palestinian offensive.
This includes the shocking revelation that some Israeli civilians were alive for up to two days before Israeli forces killed them, along with Palestinian fighters who were holding them.
Israel’s Haaretz newspaper on 20 October published an interview – only in its Hebrew edition – with a man called Tuval who lived in Kibbutz Be’eri, but who was away on 7 October. Tuval’s partner was however killed in the events.
Haaretz reports: “According to him [Tuval], only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF [Israeli army] complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
This testimony would seem to indicate that many Israeli captives were still alive on Monday, 9 October, Mondoweiss observes, a full two days after the events of Saturday, 7 October.
“While it might be understandable if captives had been killed in the hectic crossfire of an initial Israeli response to the attack on the 7th, this account would seem to indicate that the decision to assault the kibbutz and everyone inside was made as a clear military calculation,” Mondoweiss adds.
Here’s the interview with Yasmin Porat:
Original article
An Israeli woman who survived the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on 7 October says Israeli civilians were “undoubtedly” killed by their own security forces.
It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be’eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.
“They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she told Israeli radio. “There was very, very heavy crossfire” and even tank shelling.
The woman, 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, said that prior to that, she and other civilians had been held by the Palestinians for several hours and treated “humanely.” She had fled the nearby “Nova” rave.
A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh (“This Morning”) hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating on social media.
The interview has been translated by The Electronic Intifada. You can listen to it with English subtitles in this video and a transcript is at the end of this article:
Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired.
It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature.
Porat, who is from Kabri, a settlement near the Lebanese border, undoubtedly experienced terrible things and saw many noncombatants killed. Her own partner, Tal Katz, is among the dead.
However, her account undermines Israel’s official story of deliberate, wanton murder by the Palestinian fighters.
Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity.
At least one Hebrew-language account posted part of the interview on Twitter, now officially called X, and accused Kan of functioning as “media in the service of Hamas.”
תקשורת בשירות החמאס:
ניצולה שמספרת שהמחבלים לא פגעו בה והרבה מאהובינו נהרגו ע"י חיילינו, מופצת כעת ברשתות החמאס:
"השדר הישראלי, אריה גולן, ראיין עדת ראייה שנכחה בקונצרט בהתנחלות בארי. ההתנגדות לא רצתה להרוג אותנו, אלא טיפלה בנו בצורה אתית והרגיעה את מצב הטרור שבו חיינו"
🤬🤬🤬 pic.twitter.com/Gq2pRm5YBW
— Jack Russell 🐶 (@JackRussell2022) October 15, 2023
Porat also gave her account to the Israeli newspaper Maariv.
However, the Maariv story, published on 9 October, makes no specific mention of civilians being killed by Israeli forces.
And in a half-hour interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on Thursday, Porat speaks of intense gunfire after Israeli forces arrived. Porat herself received a bullet in the thigh.
Treated “humanely”
Not only does Porat tell Kan that Israelis were killed in the heavy counterattack by Israeli security forces, but she says she and other captive civilians were well treated by the Palestinian fighters.
Porat had been attending the “Nova” rave when the Hamas assault began with missiles and motorized paragliders. She and her partner Tal Katz escaped by car to nearby Kibbutz Be’eri where many of the events she describes in her media interviews took place.
According to Porat speaking to Maariv, she and Katz initially sought refuge in the house of a couple called Adi and Hadas Dagan. After the Palestinian fighters found them they were all taken to another house, where eight people were already being held captive and one person was dead.
Porat said that the wife of the dead man “told us that when they [the Hamas fighters] tried to enter, the guy tried to prevent them from entering and grabbed the door. They shot at the door and he was killed. They did not execute them.”
“They did not abuse us. They treated us very humanely,” Porat explained to a surprised Golan in the Kan radio interview.
“By that I mean they guard us,” she said. “They give us something to drink here and there. When they see we are nervous they calm us down. It was very frightening but no one treated us violently. Luckily nothing happened to me like what I heard in the media.”
“They were very humane towards us,” Porat said in her Channel 12 interview. She recalled that one Palestinian fighter who spoke Hebrew, “told me, ‘Look at me well, we’re not going to kill you. We want to take you to Gaza. We are not going to kill you. So be calm, you’re not going to die.’ That’s what he told me, in those words.”
“I was calm because I knew nothing would happen to me,” she added.
“They told us that we would not die, that they wanted to take us to Gaza and that the next day they would return us to the border,” Porat told Maariv.
In the Channel 12 interview, Porat elaborates that although the Palestinian fighters all had loaded weapons, she never saw them shoot captives or threaten them with their guns.
In addition to providing the captives with drinking water, she said the fighters let them go outside to the lawn because it was hot, especially as the electricity was cut.
Young and scared
About eight hours after the start of the Hamas attack and about half an hour after Porat’s calls to the police, Israeli forces arrived and chaos ensued, Porat told Kan.
“At first there was no [Israeli] security force with us,” Porat recalled, noting that her first call to the Israeli police went unanswered. “We were the ones who called the police, together with the abductors because the abductors wanted the police to arrive. Because their objective was to kidnap us to Gaza.”
“They understand that soldiers will not kill hostages. So they want to come out with us alive and for the police to permit it,” Porat told Channel 12.
Though the Israeli captives numbered only a dozen, Porat was instructed to tell Israeli police that 40 of them were being held by the Hamas fighters, who themselves numbered between 40 and 50 men mostly in their 20s, by Porat’s estimate. They themselves were young and scared, she told Channel 12.
A fighter Porat described as a commander in his 30s asked to speak to the police and was put on with an Arabic-speaking Israeli officer.
After their brief conversation, the four dozen or so Palestinian fighters and their dozen Israeli prisoners awaited the arrival of the army, with some of the group spilling outside to the garden for relief from the afternoon heat.
Hails of bullets, mortars and tank shells
Israeli forces announced their arrival with a hail of gunfire, catching the fighters and their Israeli captives by surprise.
“We were outside and suddenly there was a volley of bullets at us from the [Israeli unit] YAMAM. We all started running to find cover, Porat told Channel 12.”
Porat said she surrendered to the Israeli soldiers half an hour into the fierce gun battle that consisted of “tens and hundreds and thousands of bullets and mortars flying in the air,” and that one of the Palestinian fighters, a commander, decided to surrender and used her in effect as a human shield.
“He starts to disrobe,” Porat recalled to Kan’s Aryeh Golan. “He calls to me and he starts to leave the house with me, under fire. At that time I yell to the [Israeli commandos] … when they can hear me, to stop firing.”
“And then they heard me and stopped firing,” she added. “I see people from the kibbutz on the lawn. There are five or six hostages lying on the ground outside. Just like sheep to the slaughter, between the shooting of our commandos and the terrorists.”
“The terrorists shot them?” Golan asks.
“No, they were killed by the crossfire,” Porat responds. “Understand there was very, very heavy crossfire.”
Golan presses: “So our forces may have shot them?”
“Undoubtedly,” the former captive responds, and adds, “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”
“After insane crossfire, two tank shells were shot into the house. It’s a small kibbutz house, nothing big,” Porat explains.
Porat and the man who took her captive both survived. The Palestinian was taken prisoner by Israeli forces. But according to Porat, almost everyone else in the settlement was killed, wounded or missing, believed to have been taken to Gaza.
Porat told Kan she lost dozens of friends who had been at the rave – people she would regularly see at parties in Israel’s trance scene.
“I’m angry at the state, I’m angry at the army,” Porat told Maariv. “For 10 hours the kibbutz was abandoned.”
The joint American-Israeli effort to paint Hamas as worse than ISIS in order to justify Israel’s unfolding genocide against the civilian population in Gaza depends on the international public not seeing or hearing accounts like Porat’s.
Israeli leaders, already under intense criticism for failing to anticipate and prevent the Hamas offensive, will also not want their catastrophic failures to be compounded by knowledge that many of the Israelis who died may well have been killed by “friendly fire” in a disastrous Israeli counterattack.
Hannibal Directive?
Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas military commander, has directly addressed Israel’s claims that his fighters set out to deliberately kill as many civilians as possible.
The Israeli propaganda campaign has included lurid atrocity tales – for which no evidence has been produced whatsoever – that Palestinians beheaded dozens of Israeli babies and that women were raped.
Al-Arouri said in an interview with Al Jazeera on Thursday that fighters of his organization’s military force, the Qassam Brigades, were under strict protocol to not harm civilians.
But al-Arouri said that after Israel’s Gaza division – the army unit that surrounds the Gaza Strip – collapsed much more quickly than expected, people in Gaza rushed to the boundary area after learning it had been opened, causing chaos. He said this may have included other armed persons who were not part of Qassam.
Al-Arouri said that this caused Qassam fighters to engage with soldiers, settlement guards and armed residents, which led to civilian deaths.
Al-Arouri also invoked the possibility Israel used the so-called Hannibal Directive – a protocol that allows Israeli forces to use overwhelming force to kill one of their own captured soldiers rather than allow them to be taken prisoner.
The rationale for the Hannibal Directive is to avoid allowing an enemy to have captives that can be used in prisoner exchange negotiations.
However in this case, if the directive was implemented by Israeli forces, it would have been used against civilians.
Al-Arouri told Al Jazeera, “We are certain that young men [fighters] were bombed along with the prisoners who were with them.”
Porat’s account, among others, underscores the need for an independent investigation, one which Israel is unlikely ever to permit.
posted by cendawanita at 10:21 PM on November 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
Spanish and Belgian Prime Ministers call for permanent ceasefire
Spain PM says time to recognize state of Palestine and willing to go ahead as a country if the rest of the EU won't
While the Israeli govt is putting a general restriction to their citizens who were hostages from public comments, the Thai govt has no similar restrictions. This is an interview with the sister of one of the Thai hostages: The statement made by the sister of one of the released Thai hostages:
"He said that he was neither tortured nor assaulted, and he had been fed good food. He was very well taken care of. It seems as though he stayed in a house, not a tunnel."
Apparently the untranslated bit at the end was she saying his clothes wasn't even dirty.
I won't comment on the psychology, but it seems that while there's generally positive sentiment on the part of the Palestinians greeting their detainees and also the Israelis seeming to leave their Hamas captors in relatively positive affect, Israeli telegram chat screenshots weren't nearly as positive. I didn't save them though so feel free to disregard.
Other things I've seen but not saved: far-right accounts sharing some apologia by Andrew Roberts that at least the Nazis aren't as bad as Hamas that gets shared by pro-Israeli accounts so that's where we're at in terms of 2023 Holocaust revisionism. Also some fresh exciting word salad with regards to "Muslim imperialism" being behind the energy to "destroy" Israel, so decolonization language being mainstreamed is going along swimmingly.
Haggai Matar: After weeks of Hasbara telling us not to listen to the "Hamas-run Ministry of Health in Gaza" in terms of casualty rates - Israel now recognizes the the official Palestinian number of 14-15K killed in Gaza, plus thousands of bodies trapped under the rubble, is likely correct
In the meantime, harvest was delayed but Palestinians are using this pause to get into olive harvest season.
This is a month ago but an update to this Electronic Intifada story: Update, 23 October
The Electronic Intifada is now able to publish the entire interview with Yasmin Porat, the Kibbutz Be’eri survivor who told Israeli radio that Israeli security forces “undoubtedly” killed a large number of their own civilians following the Hamas assault on 7 October.
When this article was originally published on 15 October, a recording of the interview was not available on the website of Israeli state broadcaster Kan and was not included in the online edition of Haboker Hazeh for that day, the program that interviewed Porat.
Following the publication of this article, the full interview was uploaded by Kan. It includes several extra minutes that were edited out of the version of the interview that we had originally obtained and translated.
In the full-length interview, Porat states that the Palestinian fighters – who she says treated her and the other Israeli civilians “humanely” – intended to “kidnap us to Gaza. Not to murder us.”
She adds that “after we were there for two hours with the abductors, the police arrive. A gun battle takes place that our police started.”
You can listen to the full interview with English subtitles here in the video below. A full transcript is at the bottom of this page.
Also of note is that Mondoweiss on 22 October published a story based on accounts in Israeli media indicating that Israeli forces were responsible for many Israeli civilian and military deaths following the 7 October Palestinian offensive.
This includes the shocking revelation that some Israeli civilians were alive for up to two days before Israeli forces killed them, along with Palestinian fighters who were holding them.
Israel’s Haaretz newspaper on 20 October published an interview – only in its Hebrew edition – with a man called Tuval who lived in Kibbutz Be’eri, but who was away on 7 October. Tuval’s partner was however killed in the events.
Haaretz reports: “According to him [Tuval], only on Monday night and only after the commanders in the field made difficult decisions – including shelling houses with all their occupants inside in order to eliminate the terrorists along with the hostages – did the IDF [Israeli army] complete the takeover of the kibbutz. The price was terrible: at least 112 Be’eri people were killed. Others were kidnapped. Yesterday, 11 days after the massacre, the bodies of a mother and her son were discovered in one of the destroyed houses. It is believed that more bodies are still lying in the rubble.”
This testimony would seem to indicate that many Israeli captives were still alive on Monday, 9 October, Mondoweiss observes, a full two days after the events of Saturday, 7 October.
“While it might be understandable if captives had been killed in the hectic crossfire of an initial Israeli response to the attack on the 7th, this account would seem to indicate that the decision to assault the kibbutz and everyone inside was made as a clear military calculation,” Mondoweiss adds.
Here’s the interview with Yasmin Porat:
Original article
An Israeli woman who survived the Hamas assault on settlements near the Gaza boundary on 7 October says Israeli civilians were “undoubtedly” killed by their own security forces.
It happened when Israeli forces engaged in fierce gun battles with Palestinian fighters in Kibbutz Be’eri and fired indiscriminately at both the fighters and their Israeli prisoners.
“They eliminated everyone, including the hostages,” she told Israeli radio. “There was very, very heavy crossfire” and even tank shelling.
The woman, 44-year-old mother of three Yasmin Porat, said that prior to that, she and other civilians had been held by the Palestinians for several hours and treated “humanely.” She had fled the nearby “Nova” rave.
A recording of her interview, from the radio program Haboker Hazeh (“This Morning”) hosted by Aryeh Golan on state broadcaster Kan, has been circulating on social media.
The interview has been translated by The Electronic Intifada. You can listen to it with English subtitles in this video and a transcript is at the end of this article:
Notably, the interview is not included in the online version of Haboker Hazeh for 15 October, the episode in which it apparently aired.
It may well have been censored due to its explosive nature.
Porat, who is from Kabri, a settlement near the Lebanese border, undoubtedly experienced terrible things and saw many noncombatants killed. Her own partner, Tal Katz, is among the dead.
However, her account undermines Israel’s official story of deliberate, wanton murder by the Palestinian fighters.
Although it no longer appears on the Kan website, there can be little doubt about the recording’s authenticity.
At least one Hebrew-language account posted part of the interview on Twitter, now officially called X, and accused Kan of functioning as “media in the service of Hamas.”
תקשורת בשירות החמאס:
ניצולה שמספרת שהמחבלים לא פגעו בה והרבה מאהובינו נהרגו ע"י חיילינו, מופצת כעת ברשתות החמאס:
"השדר הישראלי, אריה גולן, ראיין עדת ראייה שנכחה בקונצרט בהתנחלות בארי. ההתנגדות לא רצתה להרוג אותנו, אלא טיפלה בנו בצורה אתית והרגיעה את מצב הטרור שבו חיינו"
🤬🤬🤬 pic.twitter.com/Gq2pRm5YBW
— Jack Russell 🐶 (@JackRussell2022) October 15, 2023
Porat also gave her account to the Israeli newspaper Maariv.
However, the Maariv story, published on 9 October, makes no specific mention of civilians being killed by Israeli forces.
And in a half-hour interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on Thursday, Porat speaks of intense gunfire after Israeli forces arrived. Porat herself received a bullet in the thigh.
Treated “humanely”
Not only does Porat tell Kan that Israelis were killed in the heavy counterattack by Israeli security forces, but she says she and other captive civilians were well treated by the Palestinian fighters.
Porat had been attending the “Nova” rave when the Hamas assault began with missiles and motorized paragliders. She and her partner Tal Katz escaped by car to nearby Kibbutz Be’eri where many of the events she describes in her media interviews took place.
According to Porat speaking to Maariv, she and Katz initially sought refuge in the house of a couple called Adi and Hadas Dagan. After the Palestinian fighters found them they were all taken to another house, where eight people were already being held captive and one person was dead.
Porat said that the wife of the dead man “told us that when they [the Hamas fighters] tried to enter, the guy tried to prevent them from entering and grabbed the door. They shot at the door and he was killed. They did not execute them.”
“They did not abuse us. They treated us very humanely,” Porat explained to a surprised Golan in the Kan radio interview.
“By that I mean they guard us,” she said. “They give us something to drink here and there. When they see we are nervous they calm us down. It was very frightening but no one treated us violently. Luckily nothing happened to me like what I heard in the media.”
“They were very humane towards us,” Porat said in her Channel 12 interview. She recalled that one Palestinian fighter who spoke Hebrew, “told me, ‘Look at me well, we’re not going to kill you. We want to take you to Gaza. We are not going to kill you. So be calm, you’re not going to die.’ That’s what he told me, in those words.”
“I was calm because I knew nothing would happen to me,” she added.
“They told us that we would not die, that they wanted to take us to Gaza and that the next day they would return us to the border,” Porat told Maariv.
In the Channel 12 interview, Porat elaborates that although the Palestinian fighters all had loaded weapons, she never saw them shoot captives or threaten them with their guns.
In addition to providing the captives with drinking water, she said the fighters let them go outside to the lawn because it was hot, especially as the electricity was cut.
Young and scared
About eight hours after the start of the Hamas attack and about half an hour after Porat’s calls to the police, Israeli forces arrived and chaos ensued, Porat told Kan.
“At first there was no [Israeli] security force with us,” Porat recalled, noting that her first call to the Israeli police went unanswered. “We were the ones who called the police, together with the abductors because the abductors wanted the police to arrive. Because their objective was to kidnap us to Gaza.”
“They understand that soldiers will not kill hostages. So they want to come out with us alive and for the police to permit it,” Porat told Channel 12.
Though the Israeli captives numbered only a dozen, Porat was instructed to tell Israeli police that 40 of them were being held by the Hamas fighters, who themselves numbered between 40 and 50 men mostly in their 20s, by Porat’s estimate. They themselves were young and scared, she told Channel 12.
A fighter Porat described as a commander in his 30s asked to speak to the police and was put on with an Arabic-speaking Israeli officer.
After their brief conversation, the four dozen or so Palestinian fighters and their dozen Israeli prisoners awaited the arrival of the army, with some of the group spilling outside to the garden for relief from the afternoon heat.
Hails of bullets, mortars and tank shells
Israeli forces announced their arrival with a hail of gunfire, catching the fighters and their Israeli captives by surprise.
“We were outside and suddenly there was a volley of bullets at us from the [Israeli unit] YAMAM. We all started running to find cover, Porat told Channel 12.”
Porat said she surrendered to the Israeli soldiers half an hour into the fierce gun battle that consisted of “tens and hundreds and thousands of bullets and mortars flying in the air,” and that one of the Palestinian fighters, a commander, decided to surrender and used her in effect as a human shield.
“He starts to disrobe,” Porat recalled to Kan’s Aryeh Golan. “He calls to me and he starts to leave the house with me, under fire. At that time I yell to the [Israeli commandos] … when they can hear me, to stop firing.”
“And then they heard me and stopped firing,” she added. “I see people from the kibbutz on the lawn. There are five or six hostages lying on the ground outside. Just like sheep to the slaughter, between the shooting of our commandos and the terrorists.”
“The terrorists shot them?” Golan asks.
“No, they were killed by the crossfire,” Porat responds. “Understand there was very, very heavy crossfire.”
Golan presses: “So our forces may have shot them?”
“Undoubtedly,” the former captive responds, and adds, “They eliminated everyone, including the hostages because there was very, very heavy crossfire.”
“After insane crossfire, two tank shells were shot into the house. It’s a small kibbutz house, nothing big,” Porat explains.
Porat and the man who took her captive both survived. The Palestinian was taken prisoner by Israeli forces. But according to Porat, almost everyone else in the settlement was killed, wounded or missing, believed to have been taken to Gaza.
Porat told Kan she lost dozens of friends who had been at the rave – people she would regularly see at parties in Israel’s trance scene.
“I’m angry at the state, I’m angry at the army,” Porat told Maariv. “For 10 hours the kibbutz was abandoned.”
The joint American-Israeli effort to paint Hamas as worse than ISIS in order to justify Israel’s unfolding genocide against the civilian population in Gaza depends on the international public not seeing or hearing accounts like Porat’s.
Israeli leaders, already under intense criticism for failing to anticipate and prevent the Hamas offensive, will also not want their catastrophic failures to be compounded by knowledge that many of the Israelis who died may well have been killed by “friendly fire” in a disastrous Israeli counterattack.
Hannibal Directive?
Saleh al-Arouri, a senior Hamas military commander, has directly addressed Israel’s claims that his fighters set out to deliberately kill as many civilians as possible.
The Israeli propaganda campaign has included lurid atrocity tales – for which no evidence has been produced whatsoever – that Palestinians beheaded dozens of Israeli babies and that women were raped.
Al-Arouri said in an interview with Al Jazeera on Thursday that fighters of his organization’s military force, the Qassam Brigades, were under strict protocol to not harm civilians.
But al-Arouri said that after Israel’s Gaza division – the army unit that surrounds the Gaza Strip – collapsed much more quickly than expected, people in Gaza rushed to the boundary area after learning it had been opened, causing chaos. He said this may have included other armed persons who were not part of Qassam.
Al-Arouri said that this caused Qassam fighters to engage with soldiers, settlement guards and armed residents, which led to civilian deaths.
Al-Arouri also invoked the possibility Israel used the so-called Hannibal Directive – a protocol that allows Israeli forces to use overwhelming force to kill one of their own captured soldiers rather than allow them to be taken prisoner.
The rationale for the Hannibal Directive is to avoid allowing an enemy to have captives that can be used in prisoner exchange negotiations.
However in this case, if the directive was implemented by Israeli forces, it would have been used against civilians.
Al-Arouri told Al Jazeera, “We are certain that young men [fighters] were bombed along with the prisoners who were with them.”
Porat’s account, among others, underscores the need for an independent investigation, one which Israel is unlikely ever to permit.
posted by cendawanita at 10:21 PM on November 25, 2023 [12 favorites]
The Freedom Flotilla is taking to the seas again, to Gaza. More details in this article. Coincidentally, this was just posted by a local/Malaysian channel: I was captured and sent to an Israeli prison - an interview with Nizam Awang, one of the volunteers from the 2010 attempt that was boarded by the Israeli navy. Interesting that much of the video contained footage from his own records, and he also confirmed a factoid shared by Palestinians in that he's made to sign forms he couldn't read (it was all in Hebrew).
posted by cendawanita at 10:36 PM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:36 PM on November 25, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's meant horrifically but I just cannot take this seriously:
Leah Mcelrath: Israel’s Minister of Communications:
“Our warriors will return only after they have cut off all these damned foreskins”
I'll let you guys have a minute about that.
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Leah Mcelrath: Israel’s Minister of Communications:
“Our warriors will return only after they have cut off all these damned foreskins”
I'll let you guys have a minute about that.
posted by cendawanita at 11:03 PM on November 25, 2023 [5 favorites]
Joe Biden Moves to Lift Nearly Every Restriction on Israel’s Access to U.S. Weapons Stockpile
By easing virtually all limits on Israel’s use of the stockpile, Biden could undercut U.S. military preparedness and congressional oversight.
posted by cendawanita at 11:06 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
By easing virtually all limits on Israel’s use of the stockpile, Biden could undercut U.S. military preparedness and congressional oversight.
posted by cendawanita at 11:06 PM on November 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Our warriors will return only after they have cut off all these damned foreskins”
A reference to 1 Samuel 18, I'm guessing, where Saul got David to kill a hundred Philistines and collect their foreskins as the bride price for Saul's daughter?
...although if I were an Israeli soldier I'd be a little suspicious, given that Saul's intent in the story was for David to die trying.
posted by clawsoon at 2:24 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
A reference to 1 Samuel 18, I'm guessing, where Saul got David to kill a hundred Philistines and collect their foreskins as the bride price for Saul's daughter?
...although if I were an Israeli soldier I'd be a little suspicious, given that Saul's intent in the story was for David to die trying.
posted by clawsoon at 2:24 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Throwing stones" is pretty much assault with a deadly weapon, with some practice with a sling the stones fly out at 160 miles per hour which is easily fatal. This guy demonstrates 160mph throws with a 41" sling.
Here's some footage 4 weeks ago in al-Bireh, West Bank, of a typical staged stone throwing incident. It's staged with two ambulances, journalists and a dozen paramedics nearby, the martyr gets into a high position overlooking Israeli forces and winds up a shot. Sling looks to be about the same length. Either the stone finds its target, or the Israeli forces arrest or shoot the stone thrower - either way, the journalists get useful footage to promote the Palestinian cause.
List of 300 prisoners along with their charges, in Hebrew. Machine translation.
Stone throwing comes up 70 times
Molotov comes up 43 times
Stabbing comes up 33 times
Explosives comes up 27 times
28 were convicted under civil court, 62 were detained under civil court but haven't had their hearing yet. While this proportion is high, it isn't exactly unusual in the Western world - in Victoria, Australia, 42% of people in prison have not been convicted - what more in an area with rapidly escalating violence.
39 were convicted under military tribunal, while 171 were detained under military tribunal. Israel does not consider the Palestinian occupied West Bank as their sovereign territory, and thus administers it under military law as under military occupation.
Children in this case includes 18 year olds - these are the 3 largest age groups, the rule was that no males over 18 would be included.
143 are 18 year old males
76 are 17 year old males
37 are 16 year old males
posted by xdvesper at 5:56 AM on November 26, 2023
Here's some footage 4 weeks ago in al-Bireh, West Bank, of a typical staged stone throwing incident. It's staged with two ambulances, journalists and a dozen paramedics nearby, the martyr gets into a high position overlooking Israeli forces and winds up a shot. Sling looks to be about the same length. Either the stone finds its target, or the Israeli forces arrest or shoot the stone thrower - either way, the journalists get useful footage to promote the Palestinian cause.
List of 300 prisoners along with their charges, in Hebrew. Machine translation.
Stone throwing comes up 70 times
Molotov comes up 43 times
Stabbing comes up 33 times
Explosives comes up 27 times
28 were convicted under civil court, 62 were detained under civil court but haven't had their hearing yet. While this proportion is high, it isn't exactly unusual in the Western world - in Victoria, Australia, 42% of people in prison have not been convicted - what more in an area with rapidly escalating violence.
39 were convicted under military tribunal, while 171 were detained under military tribunal. Israel does not consider the Palestinian occupied West Bank as their sovereign territory, and thus administers it under military law as under military occupation.
Children in this case includes 18 year olds - these are the 3 largest age groups, the rule was that no males over 18 would be included.
143 are 18 year old males
76 are 17 year old males
37 are 16 year old males
posted by xdvesper at 5:56 AM on November 26, 2023
Per Alex Crawford twt: Here’s our report from #Gaza when our camera crew filmed Israeli snipers shooting into crowd of Gazans trying to return to homes in the north - it was the first day of the #ceasefire It’s happened again today - YT video (UK Sky News)
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 AM on November 26, 2023
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 AM on November 26, 2023
Back in the US: Three Palestinian students of Brown & Harvard Unis shot. This news report confirms the shooting but no details. This tweet has a fb post with the names of the boys.
posted by cendawanita at 6:48 AM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 6:48 AM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days
I don't know about others, but I stopped actively following the thread because I realised it was bad for my mental health.
posted by jb at 7:28 AM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know about others, but I stopped actively following the thread because I realised it was bad for my mental health.
posted by jb at 7:28 AM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Throwing stones" is pretty much assault with a deadly weapon, with some practice with a sling the stones fly out at 160 miles per hour which is easily fatal. This guy demonstrates 160mph throws with a 41" sling.
yes the classic matchup; slingshots vs army with tanks, omnipresent surveillance, drones, f16s, iron dome, warships. however will israel survive?
again: how many soldiers and civilians have been killed by stones from palestinians?
how many soldiers and civilans have been killed by israel's weaponry?
good news for israel's dangerous, oh so fucking existential enemy, though! israels recent destruction of >50% of every fucking building in northern gaza will make MORE DEADLY STONES & allow palestine to re-arm (those of them whose arms remain attach to their bodies) .
better arrest the rest of 'em.
posted by lalochezia at 7:38 AM on November 26, 2023 [16 favorites]
I suppose I ought to clarify. I was not surprised that the thread would quieten down or that people would stop posting links. I am just so desperately relieved to have any reprieve from this nightmare — the ceasefire is such unequivocally good news, and something I think virtually everyone here has wanted very badly — and it gave me pause when I came to look at this thread and found no one talking about it. I can understand that this forum has been perhaps too acrimonious for anyone to see it as a place to celebrate. So I wanted to say something myself, because I feel that throughout all the disagreements the participants here have been pretty well unified in wanting precisely what's happening now. I am so, so glad for any stop to the fighting, for aid getting through to Gazans, for people going home. And I wanted to express that here. I do think that if discussion of recent events continues, it ought to happen in a new thread; but only if anyone is inclined to make one, which I'm not.
posted by cosmic owl at 8:36 AM on November 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by cosmic owl at 8:36 AM on November 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
You're right, any cessation of hostilities is an improvement. I'm cynical about it; because I think Israel's leaders knew that pressure for some sort of pause or ceasefire would be inevitable, which is partly why they hit so fast and so hard. I don't believe there was a strategic or military benefit to hitting so hard (vs a more considered and tactical squeeze), but hitting hard helps further the real goal of expelling Palestinians, and of course it plays well to citizens still reeling and traumatized by the brutality of the Hamas terror attack.
I hate that this war, like the Ukraine war, will slowly recede into the background of our consciousness. At least Israel has better lobbying in the US; American fatigue is going to hand Russia a victory in Ukraine.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:15 AM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hate that this war, like the Ukraine war, will slowly recede into the background of our consciousness. At least Israel has better lobbying in the US; American fatigue is going to hand Russia a victory in Ukraine.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:15 AM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: stone throwing, lack of convictions, etc.—
I don't think this is by any means the determining factor in Israel's incarceration policies, but I can't help wondering how they intersect with the state's history of lopsided hostage deals. The reason Israel can offer 1,000:1 or even 3:1 trades is that it jails so damn many people—and so, from the Palestinian perspective, I wonder if such trades are short-term victories at the cost of reinforcing long-term patterns of oppression.
But then again, this doesn't really seem to be something anyone talks about, so perhaps I'm missing something obvious here? Or perhaps it's just that every life is sacred, and so the short-term victories are worth larger long-term costs (the same calculus that supports liberal Israeli views of the hostage trades).
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:35 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think this is by any means the determining factor in Israel's incarceration policies, but I can't help wondering how they intersect with the state's history of lopsided hostage deals. The reason Israel can offer 1,000:1 or even 3:1 trades is that it jails so damn many people—and so, from the Palestinian perspective, I wonder if such trades are short-term victories at the cost of reinforcing long-term patterns of oppression.
But then again, this doesn't really seem to be something anyone talks about, so perhaps I'm missing something obvious here? Or perhaps it's just that every life is sacred, and so the short-term victories are worth larger long-term costs (the same calculus that supports liberal Israeli views of the hostage trades).
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:35 AM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Throwing stones" is pretty much assault with a deadly weapon, with some practice with a sling the stones fly out at 160 miles per hour which is easily fatal. This guy demonstrates 160mph throws with a 41" sling.
The above is a bullshit justification for Israel's fascist "justice" system. Here are Palestinians throwing stones; here are more; kindly point out which of them is using a sling (NB arrestees for this have been as young as seven).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:10 PM on November 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
The above is a bullshit justification for Israel's fascist "justice" system. Here are Palestinians throwing stones; here are more; kindly point out which of them is using a sling (NB arrestees for this have been as young as seven).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 12:10 PM on November 26, 2023 [13 favorites]
i can think of a certain young israelite who stood up against a great and mighty enemy armed only with a sling and stones and was victorious so you never know how dangerous a stone throwing 7 year old might be. better safe than sorry
posted by dis_integration at 12:54 PM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by dis_integration at 12:54 PM on November 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm still retweeting and boosting news in my other socials - I'm just tired of feeling like I'm the de facto news collector and sharer here in this late stage of the thread, because the news links were piling up even as I'm also doing other things.
cendawanita, I've been meaning to say that I have really appreciated the links you've posted to perspectives from writers/commentators in Asia, which are voices that are typically not amplified or engaged with much here in the US.
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days
Just personally, while I'm obviously still reading this thread, I've stepped away from engaging much. There are a few commenters taking up a lot of oxygen in the room and who, to me, come off as polemical rather than prioritizing discussion and understanding.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:34 PM on November 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
cendawanita, I've been meaning to say that I have really appreciated the links you've posted to perspectives from writers/commentators in Asia, which are voices that are typically not amplified or engaged with much here in the US.
I've been a little surprised by how quiet it's become here in the last few days
Just personally, while I'm obviously still reading this thread, I've stepped away from engaging much. There are a few commenters taking up a lot of oxygen in the room and who, to me, come off as polemical rather than prioritizing discussion and understanding.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:34 PM on November 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
FYI the kids who throw the stones aren’t necessarily the ones the IDF arrests. Someone throws stones and the rock throwers scatter/run away and the IDF later arrests the first random boys they find.
When I visited the Quaker school in Ramallah the kids and teachers talked about this as a fairly frequent occurrence — this was in the early 1990s though before the PA took over and at the time most Palestinian boys had been picked and detained up at least once before they turned 16. I think it might be slightly better now that there are fewer IDF patrols. I’m skeptical that the mostly young IDF conscripts doing national service have become better at policing in recent years.
posted by interogative mood at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
When I visited the Quaker school in Ramallah the kids and teachers talked about this as a fairly frequent occurrence — this was in the early 1990s though before the PA took over and at the time most Palestinian boys had been picked and detained up at least once before they turned 16. I think it might be slightly better now that there are fewer IDF patrols. I’m skeptical that the mostly young IDF conscripts doing national service have become better at policing in recent years.
posted by interogative mood at 2:38 PM on November 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
(TRT) Israelis protest in front of Nehtanyahu's home.
(Phone hardware is having issues I can't fix without money so likely I have to cut down on sharing unless I find a way to work around it.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:52 PM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
(Phone hardware is having issues I can't fix without money so likely I have to cut down on sharing unless I find a way to work around it.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:52 PM on November 26, 2023 [1 favorite]
al-Jazeera update on the Palestinian students who were shot in Vermont, USA - 2 of them are in intensive care
West Bank: Eight Palestinians killed during Israeli raid
According to Respond Crisis Translation
: A released Palestinian prisoner says in Arabic that Israel held them in the cold w/o electricity, "sprayed us w/ pepper spray" & "left us to die."
She never mentioned Hamas or a word like it. Yet @BBC translated to: "No one helped us. Only Hamas cared...We love them very much."
Peter Beinart: It’s Time to Name Anti-Palestinian Bigotry
Anti-Palestinianism is as ubiquitous as it is invisible.
posted by cendawanita at 11:31 PM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
West Bank: Eight Palestinians killed during Israeli raid
According to Respond Crisis Translation
: A released Palestinian prisoner says in Arabic that Israel held them in the cold w/o electricity, "sprayed us w/ pepper spray" & "left us to die."
She never mentioned Hamas or a word like it. Yet @BBC translated to: "No one helped us. Only Hamas cared...We love them very much."
Peter Beinart: It’s Time to Name Anti-Palestinian Bigotry
Anti-Palestinianism is as ubiquitous as it is invisible.
posted by cendawanita at 11:31 PM on November 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
One of those things where there should be public firings, apologies to the public, apologies to Palestinians specifically, a comprehensive review into just how this happens, but I expect I'll never hear of it again.
And yet some people are still trying to convince us that Israel is unfairly maligned in the media.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:45 PM on November 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
And yet some people are still trying to convince us that Israel is unfairly maligned in the media.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:45 PM on November 26, 2023 [12 favorites]
WaPo yesterday with a detailed article about divisions among White House staff about the Biden response to the Hamas attacks [gift link] and Netanyahu's retaliation, including Biden apologizing to "five prominent Muslim Americans" in a private meeting after his idiotic statement about Palestinian civilian deaths:
The following day, Biden met with five prominent Muslim Americans, who protested what they saw as his insensitivity to the civilians who were dying. All spoke of people they knew who had been affected by the suffering in Gaza, including a woman who had lost 100 members of her family.
Biden appeared to be affected by their account. “I’m sorry. I’m disappointed in myself,” he told the group, according to two people familiar with the meeting. “I will do better.” The meeting, scheduled for 30 minutes, ended up lasting more than an hour, according to one White House official, and ended with Biden hugging one of the participants.
Of course, it's the public statements that matter, and Biden didn't think it worth apologizing to the rest of us. There's a lot of hand-wringing in that article about how torn Biden's folks are (including his chief of staff Jeff Zientz, who's one of the most influential people determining the U.S. response), but none of the verbiage weighs a whole lot compared to actions like the one cendawanita linked just above.
(also, it was a holiday last week across most of the countries where most Mefites live, which surely accounts for a significant chunk of whatever slowdown we've seen here over the last few days.)
posted by mediareport at 3:37 AM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
The following day, Biden met with five prominent Muslim Americans, who protested what they saw as his insensitivity to the civilians who were dying. All spoke of people they knew who had been affected by the suffering in Gaza, including a woman who had lost 100 members of her family.
Biden appeared to be affected by their account. “I’m sorry. I’m disappointed in myself,” he told the group, according to two people familiar with the meeting. “I will do better.” The meeting, scheduled for 30 minutes, ended up lasting more than an hour, according to one White House official, and ended with Biden hugging one of the participants.
Of course, it's the public statements that matter, and Biden didn't think it worth apologizing to the rest of us. There's a lot of hand-wringing in that article about how torn Biden's folks are (including his chief of staff Jeff Zientz, who's one of the most influential people determining the U.S. response), but none of the verbiage weighs a whole lot compared to actions like the one cendawanita linked just above.
(also, it was a holiday last week across most of the countries where most Mefites live, which surely accounts for a significant chunk of whatever slowdown we've seen here over the last few days.)
posted by mediareport at 3:37 AM on November 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Allegations of organ theft by Israelis from Palestinian bodies in Gaza:
Israeli children sing “We will annihilate everyone” in Gaza
Concerns about organ theft from the corpses were brought up by Euro-Med Monitor, which cited reports from medical professionals in Gaza who quickly examined a few bodies after their release. These medical professionals found evidence of organ theft, including missing cochleas and corneas as well as other vital organs like livers, kidneys, and hearts.Israel seizes over $1 million in funds in Gaza, deposits them in state bank
Israeli children sing “We will annihilate everyone” in Gaza
Israel’s national broadcaster Kan uploaded this song to X (formerly Twitter) in which Israeli children sing in celebration and support for the Israeli army’s mass extermination campaign of Palestinians in Gaza.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 3:54 AM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
...
“Autumn night falls over the beach of Gaza, planes are bombing, destruction, destruction,” the children sing in angelic voices. “Within a year we will annihilate everyone, and then we will return to plow our fields.”
I think it might be slightly better now that there are fewer IDF patrols.
Yeah, I don't think it's gotten any better for Palestinian kids in Israeli jails since the early 1990s. From July of this year:
Palestinian children abused in Israeli detention: NGO
In the report published on Monday, the group said some of the former child detainees it spoke to reported violence of a sexual nature, while many others were beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded in small cages in detention centres and upon being moved between centres...
Save the Children’s country director in the occupied Palestinian territory said Palestinian children are the only ones in the world to experience systematic prosecution in military courts. The study said 86 percent of the 228 former child detainees surveyed were beaten in detention, and 69 percent were strip-searched, adding that 42 percent were injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones.
They were also interrogated at unknown locations without the presence of a guardian or caregiver and are often deprived of food, water and sleep, the report says. In addition, they were often refused access to legal counsel, according to the research...
The report says: “The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children.”
posted by mediareport at 4:03 AM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I don't think it's gotten any better for Palestinian kids in Israeli jails since the early 1990s. From July of this year:
Palestinian children abused in Israeli detention: NGO
In the report published on Monday, the group said some of the former child detainees it spoke to reported violence of a sexual nature, while many others were beaten, handcuffed and blindfolded in small cages in detention centres and upon being moved between centres...
Save the Children’s country director in the occupied Palestinian territory said Palestinian children are the only ones in the world to experience systematic prosecution in military courts. The study said 86 percent of the 228 former child detainees surveyed were beaten in detention, and 69 percent were strip-searched, adding that 42 percent were injured at the point of arrest, including gunshot wounds and broken bones.
They were also interrogated at unknown locations without the presence of a guardian or caregiver and are often deprived of food, water and sleep, the report says. In addition, they were often refused access to legal counsel, according to the research...
The report says: “The main alleged crime for these detentions is stone-throwing, which can carry a 20-year sentence in prison for Palestinian children.”
posted by mediareport at 4:03 AM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
As a general pattern it seems that the right knows exactly what it wants and is more or less united in pursuit of that, while the left is splintered into a myriad of factions who often vigorously oppose what the others want and even when they don't what they want gets sufficiently vague that it's not actionable.
People like Netanyahu and Weiss are clear that they believe Issrael, however they define it, is and must be the eternal property of Jews to the exclusion of all others. A view that as been described here as a caricature and cartoonishly evil. But they clearly mean it, and more important, they are in a position to act on that belief and make it real.
Everyone else has much less concrete beleifs, methods for implementing those beliefs, and implications of those beliefs. We're marching around basically chanting "What do we want? [confused babble of a bazillion conflicting ideas]. When do we want it? [confused babble of arguments about schedules]."
Which does leave me a bit baffled about the "humanitarian pause". I'm in favor, don't get me wrong, a day without bombing (or at least less bombing) is vastly better than a day with.
But I'm confused about what Netanyahu et al are thinking. Losing momentum, both from a military and political standpoint, doesn't seem to match up with their stated goals. Does he really have a good chance of restarting the war in a week or so and returning to bombing the shit out of children in Gaza?
It's not easy, exactly, to keep a population caught up in an ongoing war but it's got to be easier to do that than stop then try to get that population to support resuming the war.
Lately we seem to be seeing the more Fascist right lunging towards achieving their goals by violence then just... stopping. Not that I'm objecting, I'm not. But I am very confused.
With Trump and 1/6 I could ascribe it to an essential cowardice. But with Netanyahu and the ceasefire I can't. I have a lot of bad things to say about Netanyahu but he doesn't seem to suffer from cowardice. And he's been open about his ultimate objectives, all of which conflict entirely with the ceasefire.
Does anyone have links to any good analysis on WTF is going on in Netanyahu's cabinet and policymaking?
clawsoon I want to thank you for posting a link to "Funny, you don't look antisemitic". It matched up with a lot of what I've heard from Black people, LGBT people, and women saying about leftism organized by the dominant group excluding them and claiming any effort to address specific problems of racism, homophobia, or sexism are distractions.
I also liked what he had to say about assimilation, if we're trying to change a society so it's less awful, capitalist, and bigoted why should people be especially interested in assimilating into that culture?
Just as there can be no neutrality with regards to racism, neither can there be with regards to antisemitism. One is either antisemitic or anti-antisemitic. There is no such thing as not antisemitic just as there is no such thing as non-racist. One either actively opposes it, or one is (however inadvertantly and apathetically) supporting it.
As far as opposition to antisemitism goes, in the prior thread, on the topic of a Jewish connection to Israel and what it might mean in a material context, someone wrote:
I mentioned earlier that it was an article of faith among many on the left that all of this is the fault of Israel, and that's really the core of why. There is the feeling that there wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the religious bullshit that resulted in the invasion of Israel in the 1940's.
As Cohen notes, antisemitism isn't a mistake, it isn't the result of improperly followed logic or invalid reasoning. It's a viscerally emotional and irrational thing.
Leftist contempt for religion can explain leftist opposition to Zionism and the observed "callous indifference" many leftists seem to have for Israelis killed by Palestinians. But leftist contempt for religion is not, and cannot be, the root of leftist antisemitism. No one starts as generically anti-religious and from that reasons their way to antisemitism.
The antisemitism came first, and is trying to hide itself in generalized contempt for religion.
I don't know if efforts to rid the cis het white left, generally, of antisemitism will be any more successful than efforst to rid the cis het white left, generally, of racism, homophobia, misogyny, or any of the other bigotries brosocialists indulge in. But it has to be an active project among those of us cis het white leftists who like to believe we're intersectional leftists.
posted by sotonohito at 7:59 AM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
People like Netanyahu and Weiss are clear that they believe Issrael, however they define it, is and must be the eternal property of Jews to the exclusion of all others. A view that as been described here as a caricature and cartoonishly evil. But they clearly mean it, and more important, they are in a position to act on that belief and make it real.
Everyone else has much less concrete beleifs, methods for implementing those beliefs, and implications of those beliefs. We're marching around basically chanting "What do we want? [confused babble of a bazillion conflicting ideas]. When do we want it? [confused babble of arguments about schedules]."
Which does leave me a bit baffled about the "humanitarian pause". I'm in favor, don't get me wrong, a day without bombing (or at least less bombing) is vastly better than a day with.
But I'm confused about what Netanyahu et al are thinking. Losing momentum, both from a military and political standpoint, doesn't seem to match up with their stated goals. Does he really have a good chance of restarting the war in a week or so and returning to bombing the shit out of children in Gaza?
It's not easy, exactly, to keep a population caught up in an ongoing war but it's got to be easier to do that than stop then try to get that population to support resuming the war.
Lately we seem to be seeing the more Fascist right lunging towards achieving their goals by violence then just... stopping. Not that I'm objecting, I'm not. But I am very confused.
With Trump and 1/6 I could ascribe it to an essential cowardice. But with Netanyahu and the ceasefire I can't. I have a lot of bad things to say about Netanyahu but he doesn't seem to suffer from cowardice. And he's been open about his ultimate objectives, all of which conflict entirely with the ceasefire.
Does anyone have links to any good analysis on WTF is going on in Netanyahu's cabinet and policymaking?
clawsoon I want to thank you for posting a link to "Funny, you don't look antisemitic". It matched up with a lot of what I've heard from Black people, LGBT people, and women saying about leftism organized by the dominant group excluding them and claiming any effort to address specific problems of racism, homophobia, or sexism are distractions.
I also liked what he had to say about assimilation, if we're trying to change a society so it's less awful, capitalist, and bigoted why should people be especially interested in assimilating into that culture?
Just as there can be no neutrality with regards to racism, neither can there be with regards to antisemitism. One is either antisemitic or anti-antisemitic. There is no such thing as not antisemitic just as there is no such thing as non-racist. One either actively opposes it, or one is (however inadvertantly and apathetically) supporting it.
As far as opposition to antisemitism goes, in the prior thread, on the topic of a Jewish connection to Israel and what it might mean in a material context, someone wrote:
The demand being made here is explicitly 'justify any connection Jews feel to Israel.' To the point that we need 'linkage, relationship, or whatever' because, hey, it's just a bunch of bullshit right?That's where a lot of the leftist anti-zionism that isn't just antisemitism in disguise comes from. Because that person was right. I don't go around telling religious people that their beliefs are bullshit, I actually do try not to be an asshole and many on the left take a similar approach. Which leads to a certain dancing around the core issue a lot of people on the left have with zionism of any sort.
I mentioned earlier that it was an article of faith among many on the left that all of this is the fault of Israel, and that's really the core of why. There is the feeling that there wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't for the religious bullshit that resulted in the invasion of Israel in the 1940's.
As Cohen notes, antisemitism isn't a mistake, it isn't the result of improperly followed logic or invalid reasoning. It's a viscerally emotional and irrational thing.
Leftist contempt for religion can explain leftist opposition to Zionism and the observed "callous indifference" many leftists seem to have for Israelis killed by Palestinians. But leftist contempt for religion is not, and cannot be, the root of leftist antisemitism. No one starts as generically anti-religious and from that reasons their way to antisemitism.
The antisemitism came first, and is trying to hide itself in generalized contempt for religion.
I don't know if efforts to rid the cis het white left, generally, of antisemitism will be any more successful than efforst to rid the cis het white left, generally, of racism, homophobia, misogyny, or any of the other bigotries brosocialists indulge in. But it has to be an active project among those of us cis het white leftists who like to believe we're intersectional leftists.
posted by sotonohito at 7:59 AM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
The organ theft allegations sound like another variation of the classic antisemitic blood libel. The Palestinian embrace of antisemitism as part of their struggle is extremely depressing and is used by Israeli’s to justify their actions against the Palestinians.
posted by interogative mood at 8:18 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 8:18 AM on November 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
How is the allegation antisemitic if it actually happened?
"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
If the current medical professionals are simply making this up then, yeah, thats antisemitic. But if its actually happening right now---which you or I don't know----then what should anyone do? Not tell the truth?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:55 AM on November 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
"Israel has admitted pathologists harvested organs from dead Palestinians, and others, without the consent of their families – a practice it said ended in the 1990s – it emerged at the weekend."
If the current medical professionals are simply making this up then, yeah, thats antisemitic. But if its actually happening right now---which you or I don't know----then what should anyone do? Not tell the truth?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:55 AM on November 27, 2023 [15 favorites]
From the article you cite
However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported.
So this is the blood libel all over again. There is a huge difference between taking tissue or organs form someone who died and using it to provide medical treatment to another person and actually deciding you need a fresh heart for a transplant and sending the military out to murder someone.
posted by interogative mood at 10:14 AM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported.
So this is the blood libel all over again. There is a huge difference between taking tissue or organs form someone who died and using it to provide medical treatment to another person and actually deciding you need a fresh heart for a transplant and sending the military out to murder someone.
posted by interogative mood at 10:14 AM on November 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
So this is the blood libel all over again. There is a huge difference between taking tissue or organs form someone who died and using it to provide medical treatment to another person and actually deciding you need a fresh heart for a transplant and sending the military out to murder someone.
Who is alleging the latter?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:21 AM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who is alleging the latter?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:21 AM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
However, there was no evidence that Israel had killed Palestinians to take their organs, as the Swedish paper reported.
So this is the blood libel all over again
No it isn't? The allegation is that organs were harvested without consent, not that the people from whom organs were harvested were killed specifically for that purpose, and the allegation is confirmed by the admission of an Israeli pathologist.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:38 AM on November 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
So this is the blood libel all over again
No it isn't? The allegation is that organs were harvested without consent, not that the people from whom organs were harvested were killed specifically for that purpose, and the allegation is confirmed by the admission of an Israeli pathologist.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:38 AM on November 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Israel has acknowledged it had been harvesting organs without permission from families in decades past, but says the practice ended in the 1990s:
Where Do the Allegations Come From?
In 2009, an interview with Dr. Yehuda Hiss—former head of the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute—was leaked. Recorded in 2000 by Nancy Scheper-Hughes—professor of anthropology at the University of California-Berkeley—Hiss said that pathologists at the institute took skin, corneas, bones and heart valves from the bodies of Israeli citizens, Israeli soldiers, Palestinians and immigrants, often without consent from the deceased's family.
The release of Scheper-Hughes' recording was in response to an article by Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet. The publication featured interviews with Palestinians who alleged that young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip were being killed by the Israeli military and their bodies returned with organs missing. Its content was condemned by many leaders and journalists across the world.
"Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family," Hiss said.
The Israeli military confirmed that organ harvesting took place, but that it ended in the 1990s. "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer," a spokesperson told Israel Channel 2.
The Newsweek link notes " There is no evidence that such a practice is occurring in the current conflict" but if the "ancient racist blood libel!" position is based on outrage over the very idea that any IDF soldiers would ever do such a thing, we know that's not true, and after looking at videos of what IDF soldiers have been bragging about doing in Gaza and the West Bank right now, I'm not sure it's a very compelling argument at the moment.
posted by mediareport at 10:45 AM on November 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Where Do the Allegations Come From?
In 2009, an interview with Dr. Yehuda Hiss—former head of the Abu Kabir Forensic Institute—was leaked. Recorded in 2000 by Nancy Scheper-Hughes—professor of anthropology at the University of California-Berkeley—Hiss said that pathologists at the institute took skin, corneas, bones and heart valves from the bodies of Israeli citizens, Israeli soldiers, Palestinians and immigrants, often without consent from the deceased's family.
The release of Scheper-Hughes' recording was in response to an article by Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet. The publication featured interviews with Palestinians who alleged that young men from the West Bank and Gaza Strip were being killed by the Israeli military and their bodies returned with organs missing. Its content was condemned by many leaders and journalists across the world.
"Whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family," Hiss said.
The Israeli military confirmed that organ harvesting took place, but that it ended in the 1990s. "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer," a spokesperson told Israel Channel 2.
The Newsweek link notes " There is no evidence that such a practice is occurring in the current conflict" but if the "ancient racist blood libel!" position is based on outrage over the very idea that any IDF soldiers would ever do such a thing, we know that's not true, and after looking at videos of what IDF soldiers have been bragging about doing in Gaza and the West Bank right now, I'm not sure it's a very compelling argument at the moment.
posted by mediareport at 10:45 AM on November 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
The Newsweek Article concludes:
There is no evidence that such a practice is occurring in the current conflict. In all probability, it would be significantly harder to suppress or hide such a conspiracy with the intense media attention the war is receiving along with the sophisticated tools of citizen journalism that exist now, compared to when these incidents were said to have happened.
Haaertz got an admission from the editors of the Guardian that their articles headline was misleading.. Camera-UK has provided additional comments.. There is even a Wikipedia article that goes into this controversy with a lot of detail.
This organ harvesting blood libel antisemetic conspiracy isn't just confined to Israel. Russia accused President Zelensky (who is jewish) and Ukraine of harvesting organs and sending them to Israel.
When an assault rifle round goes into your torso, hydrostatic shock turns the targets insides into a kind of soup as illustrated by this Washington Post Article, so the fact that organs are "missing" isn't surprising. It also isn't surprising that someone who was shot might have an incision on their chest from attempts to treat their wounds or from an autopsy.
It is also my understanding that internal organs used for transplant have to be removed under specific conditions, and not just removed from a dead body. My understanding is that once the person is completely dead necrosis starts immediately and the organ is useless for transplant.
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is no evidence that such a practice is occurring in the current conflict. In all probability, it would be significantly harder to suppress or hide such a conspiracy with the intense media attention the war is receiving along with the sophisticated tools of citizen journalism that exist now, compared to when these incidents were said to have happened.
Haaertz got an admission from the editors of the Guardian that their articles headline was misleading.. Camera-UK has provided additional comments.. There is even a Wikipedia article that goes into this controversy with a lot of detail.
This organ harvesting blood libel antisemetic conspiracy isn't just confined to Israel. Russia accused President Zelensky (who is jewish) and Ukraine of harvesting organs and sending them to Israel.
When an assault rifle round goes into your torso, hydrostatic shock turns the targets insides into a kind of soup as illustrated by this Washington Post Article, so the fact that organs are "missing" isn't surprising. It also isn't surprising that someone who was shot might have an incision on their chest from attempts to treat their wounds or from an autopsy.
It is also my understanding that internal organs used for transplant have to be removed under specific conditions, and not just removed from a dead body. My understanding is that once the person is completely dead necrosis starts immediately and the organ is useless for transplant.
posted by interogative mood at 1:30 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
My understanding is that once the person is completely dead necrosis starts immediately and the organ is useless for transplant.
This varies depending on the organ/tissues in question! Corneas, for example, can be used if taken 8-10 hours after the point of death. Kidneys, hearts, livers, etc, have much shorter 'shelf life' both in and out of the body. Haven't been able to find decent concrete numbers for skin, tendons, etc, but it looks like it's more similar to corneas than kidneys.
This is no comment either way on the allegations under discussion.
posted by Dysk at 3:50 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This varies depending on the organ/tissues in question! Corneas, for example, can be used if taken 8-10 hours after the point of death. Kidneys, hearts, livers, etc, have much shorter 'shelf life' both in and out of the body. Haven't been able to find decent concrete numbers for skin, tendons, etc, but it looks like it's more similar to corneas than kidneys.
This is no comment either way on the allegations under discussion.
posted by Dysk at 3:50 PM on November 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is no comment either way on the allegations under discussion.
it's a ghoulish allegation, and I suggest we refrain from focusing on it until there's a lot of corroborating evidence that it's a salient feature of this conflict. casting no aspersions on your comment Dysk, #NowIKnow re: corneas
posted by elkevelvet at 4:02 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
it's a ghoulish allegation, and I suggest we refrain from focusing on it until there's a lot of corroborating evidence that it's a salient feature of this conflict. casting no aspersions on your comment Dysk, #NowIKnow re: corneas
posted by elkevelvet at 4:02 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
The organ theft allegations sound like another variation of the classic antisemitic blood libel. The Palestinian embrace of antisemitism as part of their struggle is extremely depressing and is used by Israeli’s to justify their actions against the Palestinians.
To me, these allegations fall firmly in the Carl Sagan category of, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Not completely impossible, but without some extraordinary evidence, it is best to treat it as another round of antisemitic blood libel.
posted by bcd at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
To me, these allegations fall firmly in the Carl Sagan category of, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Not completely impossible, but without some extraordinary evidence, it is best to treat it as another round of antisemitic blood libel.
posted by bcd at 4:24 PM on November 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
Israel’s 2008 Organ Transplant Law: continued ethical challenges to the priority points model.
"The Organ Transplant Law rewards individuals with prioritized access to organs on the condition that they participate in procurement efforts. Priority is awarded in the form of additional points allocated to the individual’s organ recipient profile. Although Israel has experienced moderate gains in the years since the law’s implementation, these have not been sufficient to satisfy the demand. Furthermore, the law faces logistical and ethical challenges. These challenges could potentially be resolved by shifting the organ procurement default to routine retrieval rather than the current default of presumed refusal to organ retrieval."
posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on November 27, 2023
"The Organ Transplant Law rewards individuals with prioritized access to organs on the condition that they participate in procurement efforts. Priority is awarded in the form of additional points allocated to the individual’s organ recipient profile. Although Israel has experienced moderate gains in the years since the law’s implementation, these have not been sufficient to satisfy the demand. Furthermore, the law faces logistical and ethical challenges. These challenges could potentially be resolved by shifting the organ procurement default to routine retrieval rather than the current default of presumed refusal to organ retrieval."
posted by clavdivs at 5:03 PM on November 27, 2023
To be quite honest it seems absurd (and probably anti-semitic) to spread info about (remotely) possible but unlikely claims of immoral actions by the Israeli government when there are so many other immoral actions like imprisoning people indefinitely without charges and without disclosing even a fig leaf of reason. Of course the United States is STILL doing that after 22 years of our “war on terror” so understandably a lot of US folks may feel they can’t talk about such issues (but you can I assure you regardless of how unethically your government is — you are not your government!)
posted by R343L at 7:16 PM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by R343L at 7:16 PM on November 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Times of Israel has a useful article on the next phase of Israel's retaliation:
US: IDF should not displace Gazans en masse in the south like it did in the north
Ties in with the earlier WaPo link about Biden's people trying to use what leverage they have. Some good detail about what that looks like, including a better-defined "deconfliction" process that may help protect the aid workers who've been slaughtered in the bombings, and discussions like this:
Washington has been pressuring Israel to reopen its Kerem Shalom crossing with Gaza to help facilitate the entry of more aid into the enclave, the two officials said.
“The Israeli government has made a political decision — which I do not see any sign of changing so long as hostages are held by Hamas — of closing Kerem Shalom so that goods from Israeli territory are not going directly into Gaza,” the administration official said Monday.
However, they for the first time left open the possibility that Israel might agree for Kerem Shalom to at least be used for inspecting goods, given that the crossing is better suited for this task than Nitzana.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 AM on November 28, 2023
US: IDF should not displace Gazans en masse in the south like it did in the north
Ties in with the earlier WaPo link about Biden's people trying to use what leverage they have. Some good detail about what that looks like, including a better-defined "deconfliction" process that may help protect the aid workers who've been slaughtered in the bombings, and discussions like this:
Washington has been pressuring Israel to reopen its Kerem Shalom crossing with Gaza to help facilitate the entry of more aid into the enclave, the two officials said.
“The Israeli government has made a political decision — which I do not see any sign of changing so long as hostages are held by Hamas — of closing Kerem Shalom so that goods from Israeli territory are not going directly into Gaza,” the administration official said Monday.
However, they for the first time left open the possibility that Israel might agree for Kerem Shalom to at least be used for inspecting goods, given that the crossing is better suited for this task than Nitzana.
posted by mediareport at 5:00 AM on November 28, 2023
Spanish PM Proposes Talks on the Establishment of a Palestinian State
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has called for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state after meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem. Sanchez, whose new government was sworn in earlier this month, proposed an international peace conference on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict during talks with Netanyahu on Thursday.
“Today, more than ever, we need to bring back a serious and credible prospect for peace,” Sanchez said after talks with Netanyahu. “Without a political settlement, we are bound to run again into a never-ending cycle of violence.”...
Sanchez said he and unspecified colleagues had proposed holding an international peace conference with the parties as soon as possible. He said the European Union, Arab League and Organisation of Islamic Cooperation had all endorsed the idea.
“It is in Israel’s interest to work for peace, and today, peace means the establishment of a viable Palestinian state that includes the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, according to the UN resolutions,” he said.
United States officials have said the time is not right to try to resume peace talks given the protracted intransigence of both sides.
[Also, this thread closes today after 30 days, so while I'd bet the mods would enjoy a few days without another one on this subject, a thoughtful post to continue the discussion and link-sharing about this ongoing war might be warranted, if anyone's so inclined. I'll pass for now - family stuff - but would be interested in something like that if someone else wants to do it.]
posted by mediareport at 6:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has called for the establishment of a viable Palestinian state after meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Jerusalem. Sanchez, whose new government was sworn in earlier this month, proposed an international peace conference on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict during talks with Netanyahu on Thursday.
“Today, more than ever, we need to bring back a serious and credible prospect for peace,” Sanchez said after talks with Netanyahu. “Without a political settlement, we are bound to run again into a never-ending cycle of violence.”...
Sanchez said he and unspecified colleagues had proposed holding an international peace conference with the parties as soon as possible. He said the European Union, Arab League and Organisation of Islamic Cooperation had all endorsed the idea.
“It is in Israel’s interest to work for peace, and today, peace means the establishment of a viable Palestinian state that includes the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, according to the UN resolutions,” he said.
United States officials have said the time is not right to try to resume peace talks given the protracted intransigence of both sides.
[Also, this thread closes today after 30 days, so while I'd bet the mods would enjoy a few days without another one on this subject, a thoughtful post to continue the discussion and link-sharing about this ongoing war might be warranted, if anyone's so inclined. I'll pass for now - family stuff - but would be interested in something like that if someone else wants to do it.]
posted by mediareport at 6:13 AM on November 28, 2023 [5 favorites]
I've got some editorials and news articles lined up, do you think that would suffice for an update FPP?
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 AM on November 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 6:41 AM on November 28, 2023 [16 favorites]
My opinion doesn't count for any more than anyone else's but my impression is you've routinely been one of the more thoughtful posters in these threads, so I can't imagine anyone doing it better than you would, to be honest.
posted by mediareport at 7:09 AM on November 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 7:09 AM on November 28, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yes, please, cendawanita.
posted by bcd at 7:15 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by bcd at 7:15 AM on November 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ok the new FPP is up here. Not sure if cookies and milk emojis are appropriate too.
posted by cendawanita at 8:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:11 AM on November 28, 2023 [7 favorites]
Thank you.
🥛🍪🍪
(1300+ posts feels mega enough to merit them)
posted by bcd at 8:56 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
🥛🍪🍪
(1300+ posts feels mega enough to merit them)
posted by bcd at 8:56 AM on November 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
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posted by AlSweigart at 9:00 AM on October 28, 2023 [66 favorites]