I moved to Finland after reading it's the happiest place on Earth.
January 1, 2024 6:28 PM Subscribe
It's exceeded all my expectations. Working in Finland has been easier than other roles I've held because there's less bureaucracy here. I don't need to ask permission to speak to different people in the company, and my values and opinions on my work are respected.
I was in Helsinki for a few weeks in 2001 for work and it was nice. It was April and still in the 30s F with ice still in the harbor. I was a cruise ship vendor, putting our hardware and software on the Carnival Spirit.
posted by cuscutis at 7:08 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
posted by cuscutis at 7:08 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
as long as you are white, from what I've heard about Finland from an acquaintance of Finish/Indian descent
posted by kokaku at 7:12 PM on January 1 [30 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 7:12 PM on January 1 [30 favorites]
One of Grumpybearbride's best friends has been in Helsinki for about a year now. We're going to visit in early Spring. I am interested to see what it's like. And, as kokaku mentions, I'm pretty sure the happiness isn't evenly distributed.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:13 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:13 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
Ah, this is just propaganda from Big Salmiakki to sell more salty licorice.
posted by jzb at 7:15 PM on January 1 [42 favorites]
posted by jzb at 7:15 PM on January 1 [42 favorites]
Sounds great except for the biting cold and lack of sun!
(I'm pretty sure I would wither away and die that far north (or south!) of the equator. Just thinking about it is making me get the shivers.)
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:15 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
(I'm pretty sure I would wither away and die that far north (or south!) of the equator. Just thinking about it is making me get the shivers.)
posted by LizBoBiz at 7:15 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
I was taken aback by "I don't need to ask permission to speak to different people in the company". I haven't had all that many jobs total, and those that I have had have been in the USA, not Colombia, but I don't remember ever having needed to ask permission to speak to different people. Is this seriously a thing?
I mean, obviously I would have to jump through a bunch of hoops to speak to the CEO of a humongous company, but that seems like a pretty different (and way more reasonable) thing than just a blanket "ask permission before you talk to different people".
posted by Flunkie at 8:57 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
I mean, obviously I would have to jump through a bunch of hoops to speak to the CEO of a humongous company, but that seems like a pretty different (and way more reasonable) thing than just a blanket "ask permission before you talk to different people".
posted by Flunkie at 8:57 PM on January 1 [3 favorites]
Very much still a thing. I work for a very multicultural and especially non-Western countries can be hierarchical. I hate it as it makes things like retrospectives completely ineffective and no one shows up or don’t say what they really mean. I have to be careful not to “name drop” or if I have a meeting with someone’s boss’s boss it looks like “elevation” when really I am trying to help someone out. It could be a completely casual thing like at the end of a meeting “oh yeah person x has to get this by tomorrow, can you make sure that gets pushed through?” Like I’ll go to anyone I need to get something approved and they’ll just not question it (usually I cannot change things regarding contract pricing without approval). Completely bizarre that anyone would care.
posted by geoff. at 9:38 PM on January 1 [7 favorites]
posted by geoff. at 9:38 PM on January 1 [7 favorites]
If he's only been there 9mos that means he is just starting his first winter.
posted by ropeladder at 12:47 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
posted by ropeladder at 12:47 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
He's working at a startup - he doesn't say if it's a big one or not, but they're kind of stereotypically less hierarchical
Are groceries in Finland really that cheap? Or does he just eat out a lot?
posted by trig at 1:25 AM on January 2
Are groceries in Finland really that cheap? Or does he just eat out a lot?
posted by trig at 1:25 AM on January 2
as long as you are white, from what I've heard about Finland from an acquaintance of Finish/Indian descent
This is not inaccurate but its more complicated. Speaking as a Finnish permanent resident of Indian descent. The system works and the system is designed to NOT disrespect me. Perhaps because I've gone through the immigration system of the United States in the past, and then in Singapore and The Netherlands, my evaluation criteria for my daily life experience in Finland is on a bureaucratic plane rather than the random irritation of a random racist (this too, is not simple and this sort of bigotry exists everywhere in the world imo speaking from the experience of a life spent outside my passport country since 1970 while carrying that third world passport throughout). My tradeoffs for living here include the fact that my taxes go to building libraries, offering creches, free basic healthcare and free education through PhD and not weapons.
Finland is well suited for introverted bookworms. That can also be a challenge for those from more gregarious social cultures.
posted by infini at 1:26 AM on January 2 [101 favorites]
This is not inaccurate but its more complicated. Speaking as a Finnish permanent resident of Indian descent. The system works and the system is designed to NOT disrespect me. Perhaps because I've gone through the immigration system of the United States in the past, and then in Singapore and The Netherlands, my evaluation criteria for my daily life experience in Finland is on a bureaucratic plane rather than the random irritation of a random racist (this too, is not simple and this sort of bigotry exists everywhere in the world imo speaking from the experience of a life spent outside my passport country since 1970 while carrying that third world passport throughout). My tradeoffs for living here include the fact that my taxes go to building libraries, offering creches, free basic healthcare and free education through PhD and not weapons.
Finland is well suited for introverted bookworms. That can also be a challenge for those from more gregarious social cultures.
posted by infini at 1:26 AM on January 2 [101 favorites]
Plus, you really have to embrace winter and cannot resist its existence. Once you've cleared all these complex hurdles to choose living here, you have no choice but to be happy about it, if you see what i mean ;p
posted by infini at 1:29 AM on January 2 [31 favorites]
posted by infini at 1:29 AM on January 2 [31 favorites]
as long as you are white, from what I've heard about Finland from an acquaintance of Finish/Indian descent
The post is written by a man of Colombian descent. Are Hispanic people white?
posted by Merus at 1:41 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
The post is written by a man of Colombian descent. Are Hispanic people white?
posted by Merus at 1:41 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
Racialization occurs differently in different countries due to very different histories and experiences.
I picked Finland after spending a couple of weeks each working in Sweden and Denmark. Its very different.
posted by infini at 1:46 AM on January 2 [14 favorites]
I picked Finland after spending a couple of weeks each working in Sweden and Denmark. Its very different.
posted by infini at 1:46 AM on January 2 [14 favorites]
Keep in mind that Russia just created a new military district focused on Finland, Estonia and Latvia.
posted by constraint at 1:50 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
posted by constraint at 1:50 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
I don't need to ask permission to speak to different people in the company
I've had online meetings with German companies where, in the meeting, I had to ask Person A to do something, they asked Person B, and Person B asked Person C who then immediately did the thing. They were all in the meeting. Strangely we actually got a lot done and fixed the problems.
posted by BinaryApe at 2:16 AM on January 2 [8 favorites]
I've had online meetings with German companies where, in the meeting, I had to ask Person A to do something, they asked Person B, and Person B asked Person C who then immediately did the thing. They were all in the meeting. Strangely we actually got a lot done and fixed the problems.
posted by BinaryApe at 2:16 AM on January 2 [8 favorites]
For another, rural, ongoing moved to Finland story, Brit has quit a small-holding in Ireland and bought a house and 2 hectares in SW Finland [½ hr, no car-chases]. MetaRecent on housing policy in Finland.
There are a few superficial .IE = .FI similarities. Population ~5million. Gained independence 100 years ago from grumpy Imperial power to the East. Officially bilingual with the minority language concentrated in the West - Swedish/Finnish road-signs in and around Turku/ Åbo - Helsinki not so much.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:22 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
There are a few superficial .IE = .FI similarities. Population ~5million. Gained independence 100 years ago from grumpy Imperial power to the East. Officially bilingual with the minority language concentrated in the West - Swedish/Finnish road-signs in and around Turku/ Åbo - Helsinki not so much.
posted by BobTheScientist at 2:22 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
Keep in mind that Russia just created a new military district focused on Finland, Estonia and Latvia
For what it's worth, Finland's entire military pretty much exclusively focuses on Russia, so from our side, this is business as usual. And since we're now in NATO it's never been less in Russia's interest to do anything beyond their usual sabre rattling.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:44 AM on January 2 [14 favorites]
For what it's worth, Finland's entire military pretty much exclusively focuses on Russia, so from our side, this is business as usual. And since we're now in NATO it's never been less in Russia's interest to do anything beyond their usual sabre rattling.
posted by slimepuppy at 2:44 AM on January 2 [14 favorites]
Aw, nostalgia. I did roughly a year of graduate study at the University of Helsinki in the early 2000s and sometimes I kind of wish I’d stayed there for the PhD. My life would look so different now, in ways good and bad. But Helsinki is a wonderful place. Best transit, best walking, best parks of any city I’ve lived in. Minä opiskelen suomea vain Duolingossa nyt…
posted by eirias at 5:04 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
posted by eirias at 5:04 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
Are groceries in Finland really that cheap? Or does he just eat out a lot?
I think for a single guy around living alone 200 euros/month for basic groceries is very doable if a bit low, I'm a finnish guy living alone in Oulu, Finland, and my budget is around that. I don't think he means to include eating out, or at least I wouldn't.
It is now 14:54 and it gets dark in an hour. -28°C which is -18.4°F. It gets a little bit colder for a couple of days and then climbs to around -10-17°C which is pretty normal for around here daytime this time of year. The wind makes it feel way colder of course. Right now there really isn't any wind. At night the temperature drops to -32°C which is -25.6°F, and THAT is officially very fucking cold even to me. I don't think it was this cold even once last winter.
I've lived around here and all my life, really don't like the long winters but am ok with them, more so now than before. It really can fuck up your shit if you have a tendency for SAD. But it is business as usual around here, everyone has their own way to cope, some people are really into winter sports. How cold it is right now would be just about the limit when we WOULDN'T go playing ice hockey as kids, but usually we would be there every evening.
posted by fridgebuzz at 5:08 AM on January 2 [33 favorites]
I think for a single guy around living alone 200 euros/month for basic groceries is very doable if a bit low, I'm a finnish guy living alone in Oulu, Finland, and my budget is around that. I don't think he means to include eating out, or at least I wouldn't.
It is now 14:54 and it gets dark in an hour. -28°C which is -18.4°F. It gets a little bit colder for a couple of days and then climbs to around -10-17°C which is pretty normal for around here daytime this time of year. The wind makes it feel way colder of course. Right now there really isn't any wind. At night the temperature drops to -32°C which is -25.6°F, and THAT is officially very fucking cold even to me. I don't think it was this cold even once last winter.
I've lived around here and all my life, really don't like the long winters but am ok with them, more so now than before. It really can fuck up your shit if you have a tendency for SAD. But it is business as usual around here, everyone has their own way to cope, some people are really into winter sports. How cold it is right now would be just about the limit when we WOULDN'T go playing ice hockey as kids, but usually we would be there every evening.
posted by fridgebuzz at 5:08 AM on January 2 [33 favorites]
I've been testing my new "Big Sale Price" cashmere turtleneck as the 2nd layer and I swapped it out for an acrylic-wool mix today compared to yesterday and was feeling the difference cos my chest was cooling down too much at the bus stop.
Interestingly, barring this week's weather, I've always said my three winters in Chicago, a block from the lake, were the worst ever. -20F was regular at the bus stop. Today was the first time I got the icicles in the nose sensation after leaving Chicago in 2005. Its the lake effect according to my partner. The other secret is that Finnish babies start sleeping in the balcony as infants to get acclimatized. Kids wear open neck t shirts and open puffers.
posted by infini at 5:52 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
Interestingly, barring this week's weather, I've always said my three winters in Chicago, a block from the lake, were the worst ever. -20F was regular at the bus stop. Today was the first time I got the icicles in the nose sensation after leaving Chicago in 2005. Its the lake effect according to my partner. The other secret is that Finnish babies start sleeping in the balcony as infants to get acclimatized. Kids wear open neck t shirts and open puffers.
posted by infini at 5:52 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
The post is written by a man of Colombian descent. Are Hispanic people white?
Color of skin varies widely amongst Latinx people, and so some indeed may appear so to the uninformed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Color of skin varies widely amongst Latinx people, and so some indeed may appear so to the uninformed.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:09 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Another thing to note is that Helsinki is a little big city: he moved from Bogota (8 - 12 million people depending on what you include) to Helsinki (600k - 1.5 million).
His home city has more people than all of Finland. While it's true that there are things that make Helsinki unique and it's not rural living, there's an element of "I Moved from Big City to Small Town and What I Discovered Surprised Me".
posted by slimepuppy at 6:13 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
His home city has more people than all of Finland. While it's true that there are things that make Helsinki unique and it's not rural living, there's an element of "I Moved from Big City to Small Town and What I Discovered Surprised Me".
posted by slimepuppy at 6:13 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
I felt like Goldilocks when I first visited Helsinki in 2007. It fit me just right. This is right now my 10th anniversary period when I moved back for good. This is now the longest I've lived anywhere since 1966.
posted by infini at 6:41 AM on January 2 [12 favorites]
posted by infini at 6:41 AM on January 2 [12 favorites]
hyvää uutta vuotta
posted by infini at 6:44 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
posted by infini at 6:44 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
I've travelled to Finland a few times now, mostly for the Air Guitar World Championships in Oulu (Hi, fridgebuzz) and have a dear friend in Helsinki. Admittedly, I've only been there in the summer, so I can't speak to the weather, but I do admire the vibe of the place and the people.
The main obstacles, at least for me moving there, are the winters but also the language barrier. Yes, I know a lot of Finns speak English, but citizenship requires being able to speak Finnish and it's not an easy language to learn. Also, Finland and a lot of Europe seems to have some... issues with trans rights, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to continue getting my HRT.
posted by SansPoint at 6:57 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
The main obstacles, at least for me moving there, are the winters but also the language barrier. Yes, I know a lot of Finns speak English, but citizenship requires being able to speak Finnish and it's not an easy language to learn. Also, Finland and a lot of Europe seems to have some... issues with trans rights, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to continue getting my HRT.
posted by SansPoint at 6:57 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
Another country that often shows up as "happy" in various media is Bhutan. Especially, perhaps, because it replaces GNP with Gross National Happiness Index. However, it doesn't show up on the usual EuroAmerican happy lists because Gallup does not poll in Bhutan.
The apples/oranges issue is relevant here, too, because the Vajrayana Buddhist flavor of happiness in that part of the world probably doesn't track exactly with the Northern European not-especially-religious joy-type.
posted by kozad at 7:09 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
The apples/oranges issue is relevant here, too, because the Vajrayana Buddhist flavor of happiness in that part of the world probably doesn't track exactly with the Northern European not-especially-religious joy-type.
posted by kozad at 7:09 AM on January 2 [6 favorites]
the post is written by a man of Colombian descent. Are Hispanic people white?
Probably? It would be a little bizarre to assume that Finland (or Colombia) uses the same racial classification system as the U.S. I think "hispanic" as a concept has been imported from the U.S. into Latin America and the Caribbean but not a racial classification. I wouldn't assume it exists at all as a thing in Finland.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:28 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
Probably? It would be a little bizarre to assume that Finland (or Colombia) uses the same racial classification system as the U.S. I think "hispanic" as a concept has been imported from the U.S. into Latin America and the Caribbean but not a racial classification. I wouldn't assume it exists at all as a thing in Finland.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:28 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
This article seems like it was written by a middle schooler putting some bullet points into Chat GPT and asking it to make a book report for them. It's like... "people in Finland love nature! I am learning a lot about Finnish mannerisms. Making friends can be hard, but rewarding. In conclusion, a land of contrast." Like ok, the work culture is easier and less bureaucratic...any details on this or how it came to be this way? Policies or regulations or history that makes it different from other countries? What mannerisms you talking about bro, any details here? You "never experienced racism" ok interesting, any interviews with other people of color or sociologists in Finland who can speak on that? I thought I was going to learn something about Finnish policy or culture and how it became the way it was and instead it's this 6th grade How I Spent My Summer Vacation shit.
posted by windbox at 7:30 AM on January 2 [13 favorites]
posted by windbox at 7:30 AM on January 2 [13 favorites]
It is now 14:54 and it gets dark in an hour. -28°C which is -18.4°F. It gets a little bit colder for a couple of days and then climbs to around -10-17°C which is pretty normal for around here daytime this time of year. The wind makes it feel way colder of course. Right now there really isn't any wind. At night the temperature drops to -32°C which is -25.6°F, and THAT is officially very fucking cold even to me. I don't think it was this cold even once last winter.
I grew up in the Prairies in Canada and those temperatures feel very familiar to me. Prairie winters would last from Canadian Thanksgiving straight through to Mother's Day and they would be cold, holy shit so cold, to the point where Coldness was less a temperature and more an omnipresent reality. You would always see cars with extension cords dangling out of their hoods because you'd need to have a block heater in there to prevent your oil from freezing when you're parked. Public lots would have outlets at every spot to plug in your heater.
This article seems like it was written by a middle schooler putting some bullet points into Chat GPT and asking it to make a book report for them.
Well it's Business Insider, so what do you expect. I still maintain as a general rule that moving countries, especially where there is a large gap in climate/ethnic makeup/culture, is more difficult than people tend to assume. Even moving from America to Canada (two Western countries with a great degree of similarity), as many people I know well have done, is not without a period of adjustment. Leaving aside the more fraught question of whiteness/PoC, this gentleman benefitted from in-demand skills and (presumed) lack of family ties that would keep him in Colombia. And the constant low-level stress of not just picking up on the multitude of social cues and references? That is pretty tough.
posted by fortitude25 at 7:44 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
I grew up in the Prairies in Canada and those temperatures feel very familiar to me. Prairie winters would last from Canadian Thanksgiving straight through to Mother's Day and they would be cold, holy shit so cold, to the point where Coldness was less a temperature and more an omnipresent reality. You would always see cars with extension cords dangling out of their hoods because you'd need to have a block heater in there to prevent your oil from freezing when you're parked. Public lots would have outlets at every spot to plug in your heater.
This article seems like it was written by a middle schooler putting some bullet points into Chat GPT and asking it to make a book report for them.
Well it's Business Insider, so what do you expect. I still maintain as a general rule that moving countries, especially where there is a large gap in climate/ethnic makeup/culture, is more difficult than people tend to assume. Even moving from America to Canada (two Western countries with a great degree of similarity), as many people I know well have done, is not without a period of adjustment. Leaving aside the more fraught question of whiteness/PoC, this gentleman benefitted from in-demand skills and (presumed) lack of family ties that would keep him in Colombia. And the constant low-level stress of not just picking up on the multitude of social cues and references? That is pretty tough.
posted by fortitude25 at 7:44 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
Are Hispanic people white?
(Hispanic is a cultural descriptor, and generally means related to Spain or the Spanish language. It does not indicate race, except in the US where it is (very) loosely used as an indication of ethnicity. But it is properly a cultural identifier, an Hispanic person could look like anybody.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:44 AM on January 2 [19 favorites]
(Hispanic is a cultural descriptor, and generally means related to Spain or the Spanish language. It does not indicate race, except in the US where it is (very) loosely used as an indication of ethnicity. But it is properly a cultural identifier, an Hispanic person could look like anybody.)
posted by LooseFilter at 7:44 AM on January 2 [19 favorites]
I’ve moved abroad twice and he is definitely still in the honeymoon phase. Nothing wrong about that but for the first year you tend to be amazed by everything and love it all. The second year is about finding flaws and then it’s acceptance and resignation. Living abroad can be great but the advice I give to people thinking about it is to stay away from other expats unless you want endless bitch sessions about not making friends. He mentions it was difficult to find his people at first and that’s true everywhere. Making friends as an adult is hard. I immediately joined clubs that did what I do (rock climbing and kayaking) and made great friends based on a shared love of a hobby. So many people think they’ll make friends just hanging out at a bar. I mean you might.
posted by misterpatrick at 8:32 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
posted by misterpatrick at 8:32 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
Speaking of Oulu, have you seen NotJustBikes' video about winter cycling in the far north of Finland? Bicycle Dutch also went to International Winter Cycling Congress in Joensuu and has some nice photos of the trip.
posted by autopilot at 8:47 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 8:47 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
That Winter Cycling video lays bare the fundamental issue with US cycling infrastructure: it largely doesn't exist, and where it does, it is insufficient.
- Dedicated, fully separated bicycle paths that follow desire lines and aren't just on the side of the road
- Underpasses that avoid needing to cross roads - this is huge, and why I am a fan of pedestrian bridges in places like Vegas
When cyclists have to share road with cars, truly broad adoption of cycling falters. This is something that Finland, or at least Oulu, gets very, very right.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
- Dedicated, fully separated bicycle paths that follow desire lines and aren't just on the side of the road
- Underpasses that avoid needing to cross roads - this is huge, and why I am a fan of pedestrian bridges in places like Vegas
When cyclists have to share road with cars, truly broad adoption of cycling falters. This is something that Finland, or at least Oulu, gets very, very right.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:29 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
I'd probably get along very well in Finland. I don't particularly like the sun, get summer SAD, would rather be cold than hot (you can always wear more layers / drink coffee/cocoa), and am an introverted bookworm.
posted by Foosnark at 9:32 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 9:32 AM on January 2 [3 favorites]
“Are Hispanic people white?”
European Hispanics definitely are (at least, the ones that are white Europeans).
In Latin America and the Caribbean, in most post-colonial places where the colonizers were European and the indigenous people and or the people imported for labor were not, the people of higher wealth and social class tend to be white, or much whiter (and taller) than people of lower wealth and social class.
Look at a photo of people in government, people in power in the largest corporations, and the leading tv and film stars. People in the middle and upper classes generally look as much like European criollos as possible, including discouraging children from marrying or having children with darker-skinned people. Whiteness is a sign of wealth and social status, but also a factor in who gets education and career opportunities and who doesn’t.
If you don’t live somewhere (like a major city in peninsular Florida, forex) where there are both high-power white Hispanics and low-power nonwhite Hispanics you might reasonably not know this. People in my Hispanic and Caribbean family (not me; I’m white) have skin tones ranging from white-passing to Black-presenting, and their public social and economic experiences are strongly correlated to their appearance.
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:33 AM on January 2 [11 favorites]
European Hispanics definitely are (at least, the ones that are white Europeans).
In Latin America and the Caribbean, in most post-colonial places where the colonizers were European and the indigenous people and or the people imported for labor were not, the people of higher wealth and social class tend to be white, or much whiter (and taller) than people of lower wealth and social class.
Look at a photo of people in government, people in power in the largest corporations, and the leading tv and film stars. People in the middle and upper classes generally look as much like European criollos as possible, including discouraging children from marrying or having children with darker-skinned people. Whiteness is a sign of wealth and social status, but also a factor in who gets education and career opportunities and who doesn’t.
If you don’t live somewhere (like a major city in peninsular Florida, forex) where there are both high-power white Hispanics and low-power nonwhite Hispanics you might reasonably not know this. People in my Hispanic and Caribbean family (not me; I’m white) have skin tones ranging from white-passing to Black-presenting, and their public social and economic experiences are strongly correlated to their appearance.
posted by toodleydoodley at 9:33 AM on January 2 [11 favorites]
Are Hispanic people white?
You can say some are and some aren't or you can say the whole notion of whiteness is pretty useless in this context (not just in Latin America, but even in Spain due to the Arab history) but if you click the link there is a picture of the author, so you can easily answer the relevant question here.
posted by ssg at 9:45 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
You can say some are and some aren't or you can say the whole notion of whiteness is pretty useless in this context (not just in Latin America, but even in Spain due to the Arab history) but if you click the link there is a picture of the author, so you can easily answer the relevant question here.
posted by ssg at 9:45 AM on January 2 [5 favorites]
FYI while from an American perspective the guy in question may read Latino, in Europe he'd pass for generic Mediterranean (so maybe southern Spain or Italy or Morocco or Lebanon). We don't get many Latinos in the north of Europe in general, to the point where a Brazilian or Mexican restaurant reads as far more exotic than just about any Asian cuisine.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:57 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 9:57 AM on January 2 [4 favorites]
I spent a year in Finland last century in the mid-80's - really enjoyed it (as Kiwi of SE Asian descent). But I was young and relatively privileged; I went to the American School for the first 6 months before it got to be too expensive and I switched to NZ Correspondence School (NZ had just massively devalued the $$ so my dads savings did not go far). Felt like a lot of similarities between NZ & Finland at the time. I was probably too young to notice any overt racism although the lack of any colour was noticeable even coming from relatively white-bread NZ. My younger brother went to a local Swedish school and did cop some abuse but the school seemed pretty embarrassed about it and sorted it out pretty quick (he made plenty of friends & picked up Swedish very quick due to the total immersion; I learned very little Finnish).
General cost of living seemed expensive (compared to NZ) at the time. Kind of got the feeling people weren't of a massive consumerist bent (due to 'stuff' being expensive) and if you bought something you got something good that would last rather than be disposable. I think my mum bore the brunt of the difficulties associated with general life as she had to navigate shops/neighbours etc whereas my father worked at the university where most people spoke English.
May have been a product of its time, but the Finns I went to school with loved the USA (but this was almost peak Schwarzenegger, Stallone etc so the exported cultural imperialism was strong), hated the Russians with a passion and seemed to consider the Swedes in a similar fashion to the way NZers view Australians (friendly rivalry, a little low-key jealousy).
I enjoyed the winters, I'd previously spent 18mths in Canada so the snow was not new to me but the cold of Helsinki felt colder than the cold of Ottawa (weirdly the snow felt 'cleaner' - maybe better public transport and lack of so many cars meant less sludge).
Still, that was almost 40 years ago now. I'm sure things have changed a lot since then. Recently a Finnish friend from the school I went to moved with her family to AU and I got the feeling they thought Finland was too constricting/limiting so wanted to try living somewhere else (they got in touch with a real live letter via my parents address from when we were pen-pals after not hearing from them for 20+ years which was hilarious to me). They did travel around NZ for a month before picking AU to settle down - AU is definitely more cosmopolitan and has more opportunity than NZ so I can't blame them.
posted by phigmov at 10:06 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
General cost of living seemed expensive (compared to NZ) at the time. Kind of got the feeling people weren't of a massive consumerist bent (due to 'stuff' being expensive) and if you bought something you got something good that would last rather than be disposable. I think my mum bore the brunt of the difficulties associated with general life as she had to navigate shops/neighbours etc whereas my father worked at the university where most people spoke English.
May have been a product of its time, but the Finns I went to school with loved the USA (but this was almost peak Schwarzenegger, Stallone etc so the exported cultural imperialism was strong), hated the Russians with a passion and seemed to consider the Swedes in a similar fashion to the way NZers view Australians (friendly rivalry, a little low-key jealousy).
I enjoyed the winters, I'd previously spent 18mths in Canada so the snow was not new to me but the cold of Helsinki felt colder than the cold of Ottawa (weirdly the snow felt 'cleaner' - maybe better public transport and lack of so many cars meant less sludge).
Still, that was almost 40 years ago now. I'm sure things have changed a lot since then. Recently a Finnish friend from the school I went to moved with her family to AU and I got the feeling they thought Finland was too constricting/limiting so wanted to try living somewhere else (they got in touch with a real live letter via my parents address from when we were pen-pals after not hearing from them for 20+ years which was hilarious to me). They did travel around NZ for a month before picking AU to settle down - AU is definitely more cosmopolitan and has more opportunity than NZ so I can't blame them.
posted by phigmov at 10:06 AM on January 2 [9 favorites]
Oh, also the state run liquor stores - is 'Alko' still a thing or did that monopoly get broken-up (I imagine neoliberalism came for Finland in the same way it did in much of the rest of the world) ?
Is alcoholism still problematic (avoid the yellow-snow obvs) ?
posted by phigmov at 10:17 AM on January 2
Is alcoholism still problematic (avoid the yellow-snow obvs) ?
posted by phigmov at 10:17 AM on January 2
phigmov: Alko is still a thing as of August 2023, it seems
posted by SansPoint at 10:56 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 10:56 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
Everything I know about Finland I learned from skate documentaries and Kaurismäki movies.
posted by signal at 11:02 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 11:02 AM on January 2 [2 favorites]
from talking to folks in the portuguese diaspora, facing subtle discrimination for being of southern european descent is a Thing That Happens in northern and central europe. it's complicated; people find all sorts of ways to invent status games.
posted by pmv at 11:11 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
posted by pmv at 11:11 AM on January 2 [7 favorites]
According to family legend, my grandfather debated politics with Stalin over cigars on a Finnish riverboat. We've been able to confirm they were both on the boat at the same time, but whether the debate over cigars happened is unknown. My grandfather was an outspoken Finnish communist though, so it wouldn't surprise me if politics came up.
(This was before Stalin became a mass-murdering fuckhead, mind you, hence why my family is still alive to tell the tale.)
Whenever I think about retiring, Finland is high on my list, not just because I have family there. I like the culture and the language, and appreciate the Finnish stoicism. I love watching videos like these because for a long time, I seriously debated life in Finland. Somewhere in the multiverse, there's an alternate version of me who made the move. I imagine they're quite happy.
posted by lock robster at 11:34 AM on January 2 [13 favorites]
(This was before Stalin became a mass-murdering fuckhead, mind you, hence why my family is still alive to tell the tale.)
Whenever I think about retiring, Finland is high on my list, not just because I have family there. I like the culture and the language, and appreciate the Finnish stoicism. I love watching videos like these because for a long time, I seriously debated life in Finland. Somewhere in the multiverse, there's an alternate version of me who made the move. I imagine they're quite happy.
posted by lock robster at 11:34 AM on January 2 [13 favorites]
I think Finland and Canada share a measure of hockey anxiety.. we both have expectations, and when those expectations are upended it results in an identity crisis for many
I can only imagine how the young Finnish players felt heading into the locker room after getting beat by Germany in the recent preliminary games leading up to the IIHF Junior Championship. I mean, Canada was roundly thrashed by Sweden but still. First time Germany defeated Finland in over 20 years of IIHF play.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:00 PM on January 2 [2 favorites]
I can only imagine how the young Finnish players felt heading into the locker room after getting beat by Germany in the recent preliminary games leading up to the IIHF Junior Championship. I mean, Canada was roundly thrashed by Sweden but still. First time Germany defeated Finland in over 20 years of IIHF play.
posted by elkevelvet at 12:00 PM on January 2 [2 favorites]
SansPoint: Also, Finland and a lot of Europe seems to have some... issues with trans rights, and I'm not sure how easy it would be to continue getting my HRT.
Trans rights in Finland took a massive step forward last year. Finland had fallen far behind even the median European position, but legislative deadlock had kept things frozen for years and years. It’s a credit to Sanna Marin’s government that they put political capital into expanding queer rights, and succeeded. If you want an in-depth guide I can recommend an interview from last spring with Finnish trans activist Tanja von Knorring on the Left Anchor podcast about what’s gone right and what is yet to be done.
posted by Kattullus at 2:17 PM on January 2 [10 favorites]
Trans rights in Finland took a massive step forward last year. Finland had fallen far behind even the median European position, but legislative deadlock had kept things frozen for years and years. It’s a credit to Sanna Marin’s government that they put political capital into expanding queer rights, and succeeded. If you want an in-depth guide I can recommend an interview from last spring with Finnish trans activist Tanja von Knorring on the Left Anchor podcast about what’s gone right and what is yet to be done.
posted by Kattullus at 2:17 PM on January 2 [10 favorites]
Is this seriously a thing?
it's really company culture dependent. i worked for a < 20 person company where the CEO was insane and if my boss was on vacation and so i went to the CEO with a problem, i would get yelled at by both the CEO and my boss when they returned. us peons weren't supposed to speak to the CEO (even if it was a mission-critical problem that needed near-immediate fixing, apparently).
i work for a huge multi-national fortune 100 now, and it's gauche if you talk to your grandboss unless they talk to you first (via email, about work things). i don't think you'd get dressed down, but they'd tell your boss it was a not appropriate, and your boss would then tell you, and it would be slightly embarrassing/uncomfortable.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 2:34 PM on January 2 [4 favorites]
it's really company culture dependent. i worked for a < 20 person company where the CEO was insane and if my boss was on vacation and so i went to the CEO with a problem, i would get yelled at by both the CEO and my boss when they returned. us peons weren't supposed to speak to the CEO (even if it was a mission-critical problem that needed near-immediate fixing, apparently).
i work for a huge multi-national fortune 100 now, and it's gauche if you talk to your grandboss unless they talk to you first (via email, about work things). i don't think you'd get dressed down, but they'd tell your boss it was a not appropriate, and your boss would then tell you, and it would be slightly embarrassing/uncomfortable.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 2:34 PM on January 2 [4 favorites]
I just did 5 years in southern Germany, where the winter hovers around 0 from November to late April and hearing all you people talk about -20 or whatever - fucking no thank you very much! You all can have all that cold frozen land and I'll stay in the middle with the sun and warmth.
I worked for a very large multinational German corporation and the culture was nothing like that you couldnt talk to the CEO. Like I wouldnt ask a department head for a thing unless everyone under that person was on vacation, because they're just going to delegate anyways. I did hang out with mostly (non-American) expats and there was a tendency to assume that the culture of the company they worked for is German Work Culture, and while there are a few things common across all companies, most things are very different for each. And with a big enough company it can even be very department-dependent.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:55 PM on January 2
I worked for a very large multinational German corporation and the culture was nothing like that you couldnt talk to the CEO. Like I wouldnt ask a department head for a thing unless everyone under that person was on vacation, because they're just going to delegate anyways. I did hang out with mostly (non-American) expats and there was a tendency to assume that the culture of the company they worked for is German Work Culture, and while there are a few things common across all companies, most things are very different for each. And with a big enough company it can even be very department-dependent.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:55 PM on January 2
Oh and sorry continue the derail, but Hispanic is not a race. I believe on the census there is (or at least used to be) the option for non-Hispanic white and Hispanic white.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:56 PM on January 2
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:56 PM on January 2
Oh and sorry continue the derail, but Hispanic is not a race. I believe on the census there is (or at least used to be) the option for non-Hispanic white and Hispanic white.
I think the point is that it would have nothing to do with nothing even if it were classified as a race by the U.S. census just like it has nothing to do with nothing that many Americans think of it as a race. Neither Finland nor Colombia would be using U.S. racial classification systems.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:02 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
I think the point is that it would have nothing to do with nothing even if it were classified as a race by the U.S. census just like it has nothing to do with nothing that many Americans think of it as a race. Neither Finland nor Colombia would be using U.S. racial classification systems.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:02 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
> I'd probably get along very well in Finland. I don't particularly like the sun, get summer SAD
I have bad news for you about Finnish summers.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:30 PM on January 2 [8 favorites]
I have bad news for you about Finnish summers.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:30 PM on January 2 [8 favorites]
Yeah, seconding The corpse in the library. There’s a fantastic movie (actually two) about how the long days and short nights can mess with your head — appropriately titled Insomnia in the American version.
posted by eirias at 5:29 PM on January 2 [1 favorite]
posted by eirias at 5:29 PM on January 2 [1 favorite]
Abortion is illegal in Finland after 12 weeks of gestation, unless there is a genuine threat to the mother's life.
Finland requires voters to show ID before voting.
These laws are roughly the same as North Carolina.
posted by Hatashran at 5:53 PM on January 2
Finland requires voters to show ID before voting.
These laws are roughly the same as North Carolina.
posted by Hatashran at 5:53 PM on January 2
Finland requires voters to show ID before voting.
Most countries require an ID before voting.
I wouldn't really hold up the US method of voting as any sort of golden standard IYKWIM.
posted by signal at 5:55 PM on January 2 [1 favorite]
Most countries require an ID before voting.
I wouldn't really hold up the US method of voting as any sort of golden standard IYKWIM.
posted by signal at 5:55 PM on January 2 [1 favorite]
Abortion is illegal in Finland after 12 weeks of gestation, unless there is a genuine threat to the mother's life.
Finland requires voters to show ID before voting.
Which are both perfectly reasonable.
posted by riruro at 6:04 PM on January 2
Finland requires voters to show ID before voting.
Which are both perfectly reasonable.
posted by riruro at 6:04 PM on January 2
Abortion is available between 12-20 weeks for a lot more reasons than just “a genuine threat to the mother's life”. I mean, I've only spent 8 hours in Finland, so I can't comment on anything subjective, but it's very easy to look up objective information sources on the law from the state in English* and find the linked criteria for abortion from 12-20 weeks, including having a child would be a considerable strain for you.
I'm loathe to use abortion rights as a moral cudgel, especially as a childless single man, but to me these are not at all comparable with red state America's reproductive rights retrenchment.
*or Russian, Estonian, Ukrainian, French, Spanish, Turkish, Chinese, Persian or Arabic
posted by ambrosen at 6:30 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
I'm loathe to use abortion rights as a moral cudgel, especially as a childless single man, but to me these are not at all comparable with red state America's reproductive rights retrenchment.
*or Russian, Estonian, Ukrainian, French, Spanish, Turkish, Chinese, Persian or Arabic
posted by ambrosen at 6:30 PM on January 2 [6 favorites]
> Abortion is illegal in Finland after 12 weeks of gestation, unless there is a genuine threat to the mother's life
Gentle reminder: "threat to the pregnant person's life" is more accurate and inclusive, and less leading.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:17 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Gentle reminder: "threat to the pregnant person's life" is more accurate and inclusive, and less leading.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:17 PM on January 2 [3 favorites]
Also, on voting, in Finland non-citizen residents such as myself get to vote in local elections. This is fairly common practice in Europe.
So while I don’t get to vote for the president or parliament, I get to vote who my mayor is and for city and province councils.
Mapping voting practices in the US to other countries is difficult.
posted by Kattullus at 12:01 AM on January 3 [5 favorites]
So while I don’t get to vote for the president or parliament, I get to vote who my mayor is and for city and province councils.
Mapping voting practices in the US to other countries is difficult.
posted by Kattullus at 12:01 AM on January 3 [5 favorites]
Helsinki considered me a taxpayer ("citizen" a la Athens) after 2 continuous years and then sent me my voting rights before the municipal elections.
btw Kattullus, I need to text you
posted by infini at 3:57 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
btw Kattullus, I need to text you
posted by infini at 3:57 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
Yesterday in Finland
HELSINKI (AP) — Finland and Sweden recorded their coldest temperatures of the winter Tuesday when thermometers plummeted as low as minus 40 degrees Celsius (minus 40 Fahrenheit)
Meanwhile Toronto is 1 C and zero snow
posted by yyz at 7:53 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
HELSINKI (AP) — Finland and Sweden recorded their coldest temperatures of the winter Tuesday when thermometers plummeted as low as minus 40 degrees Celsius (minus 40 Fahrenheit)
Meanwhile Toronto is 1 C and zero snow
posted by yyz at 7:53 AM on January 3 [2 favorites]
Finland also has their own Spice Girls, Maustetytöt . Their album Maailman Onnellisin Kansa translates as “The Happiest People in the World”, although it is very minor key.
posted by autopilot at 12:03 PM on January 3 [2 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 12:03 PM on January 3 [2 favorites]
Re: voter ID: I've heard that in many countries, you get ID cards at birth or automatically or something like that? It's not like in the US.
posted by pelvicsorcery at 4:20 PM on January 3
posted by pelvicsorcery at 4:20 PM on January 3
ID card wise, Finland requires a fee, and it looks like a lot of people don't have ID cards (using cheaper passports and driving licences instead), but you can apparently get a free temporary one for voting, which is more progressive than many European countries. Still, 58 euro is no cakewalk and it sounds like you need a professional photo on top of it.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 4:57 PM on January 3
posted by I claim sanctuary at 4:57 PM on January 3
Finland also has their own Spice Girls, Maustetytöt . Their album Maailman Onnellisin Kansa translates as “The Happiest People in the World”, although it is very minor key.
They were just interviewed by The Guardian.
posted by fridgebuzz at 2:04 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
They were just interviewed by The Guardian.
posted by fridgebuzz at 2:04 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]
Kaurismäki might be my favourite director. If aliens came down to earth and asked to see low-key humanity, I'd show them 'Le Havre' followed by 'Leningrad Cowboys Go America'.
posted by phigmov at 9:49 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
posted by phigmov at 9:49 AM on January 4 [2 favorites]
Fun post and discussion. Thanks, OP!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:55 AM on January 5
posted by Bella Donna at 4:55 AM on January 5
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posted by 2N2222 at 7:06 PM on January 1 [1 favorite]