The heart of a grift is that it's a promise that could be true
January 20, 2024 1:59 AM Subscribe
One possible reason grifts seem to have proliferated is elite overproduction, specifically elite overproduction of extroverts. There's an ongoing debate over whether or not people skills are undervalued, and perhaps for many people they are, but it's hard to deny that there are many, many more ways for someone who doesn't like social interaction much to get rich. If ads and sales are on the same continuum, then the world's best salespeople are engineers, data scientists, and product managers. from A Theory of Grift
Never forget the corrosive effect of mass and social media - not in the sense of the FPP - all of the bling and ads awakening the jealousy and entitlement of proto-scammers everywhere.
posted by lalochezia at 5:24 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 5:24 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
lalochezia: I do think that’s a factor as we have the combination of normal careers becoming harder and a lot of people turning to “side-hustles” of varying levels of honesty. The successful ones get a lot of attention and each iteration means more people wondering whether they’re suckers for trying to make an honest living.
posted by adamsc at 5:44 AM on January 20 [8 favorites]
posted by adamsc at 5:44 AM on January 20 [8 favorites]
I'm baffled by his assertion that financial grift is somehow more prevalent today than in the past. It's been more than 80 years since Where are the Customers' Yachts? : or a Good Hard Look at Wall Street was published, describing in detail the exact same grifts he talks about here. High fees for index-equivalent products? That was the entire wealth management industry in the "put grandma's portfolio into blue chips" era, before index funds started to became more widely available in the 90s.
The main difference today is that the opportunity to be a financial grifter has been democratized. An essential part of the grift is being able to claim some authority or special knowledge. Back in the 20th century, you needed to be accepted into the Wall Street club to give you that credibility. Today, no one has any need for "professionals" anymore. All you need is an account on Twitter.
The grift has always been there, but people who work for financial institutions have lost their monopoly on it.
posted by fuzz at 6:00 AM on January 20 [30 favorites]
The main difference today is that the opportunity to be a financial grifter has been democratized. An essential part of the grift is being able to claim some authority or special knowledge. Back in the 20th century, you needed to be accepted into the Wall Street club to give you that credibility. Today, no one has any need for "professionals" anymore. All you need is an account on Twitter.
The grift has always been there, but people who work for financial institutions have lost their monopoly on it.
posted by fuzz at 6:00 AM on January 20 [30 favorites]
Well, I'm pretty sure we had con artists before we had Twitter.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:07 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:07 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Sorry for the derail, I should just click away, but can someone please define 'elite overproduction? I cannot parse that term as he used it.
posted by Dashy at 6:35 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 6:35 AM on January 20 [4 favorites]
> Sorry for the derail, I should just click away, but can someone please define 'elite overproduction?
The writing is low quality (high jargon) that lends heft to the in-page ads for people who self-identify as erudite/smart/clever.
(e.g. Leaftoe's observation of crypto company recruitment ads.)
On second thought, I think the page may be satire since the in-page advertorials are same-site. 🤔
posted by mistersquid at 6:43 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
The writing is low quality (high jargon) that lends heft to the in-page ads for people who self-identify as erudite/smart/clever.
(e.g. Leaftoe's observation of crypto company recruitment ads.)
On second thought, I think the page may be satire since the in-page advertorials are same-site. 🤔
posted by mistersquid at 6:43 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
Elite overproduction is getting more people who feel entitled to high status than there are positions for them. For example, more nobles than there is land, or more graduates than there are professional jobs for them.
I'm not sure it applies to extroverts, but there are definitely people training to be more extraverted.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:48 AM on January 20 [17 favorites]
I'm not sure it applies to extroverts, but there are definitely people training to be more extraverted.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 6:48 AM on January 20 [17 favorites]
The writing at least is definitely peak finance bro
2010 called and wants its elite overproduction of overwrought blogging back.
posted by Dashy at 6:54 AM on January 20 [10 favorites]
2010 called and wants its elite overproduction of overwrought blogging back.
posted by Dashy at 6:54 AM on January 20 [10 favorites]
"Goop and Infowars selling identical supplements with different labels" made me laugh out loud. Every market segment has its own grift.
posted by tommasz at 7:12 AM on January 20 [8 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 7:12 AM on January 20 [8 favorites]
The grift is long established in the wellness and salvation industries, seen as harmless by most. But politics and finance that preyed on the desperate were always regarded as dangerous, so what we're seeing these days is a lower bar for gaining trust to enable the grift.
posted by Brian B. at 7:19 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 7:19 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
Every market segment has its own grift.
and they're all fulfilled by the same unregulated factory in China
posted by kokaku at 7:26 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
and they're all fulfilled by the same unregulated factory in China
posted by kokaku at 7:26 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
an someone please define 'elite overproduction?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction
Produce too many upper-class members for upper-class slots, get a revolution.
posted by NotAYakk at 8:14 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_overproduction
Produce too many upper-class members for upper-class slots, get a revolution.
posted by NotAYakk at 8:14 AM on January 20 [5 favorites]
from the article:
So, for the moment, we're probably stuck with some baseline level of grift. No one is immune, because everyone is part of the mass middle of the bell curve for something. So for now we'll still see weird stuff like Goop and Infowars selling identical supplements with different labels.
we are where we are ....
posted by philip-random at 9:46 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
So, for the moment, we're probably stuck with some baseline level of grift. No one is immune, because everyone is part of the mass middle of the bell curve for something. So for now we'll still see weird stuff like Goop and Infowars selling identical supplements with different labels.
we are where we are ....
posted by philip-random at 9:46 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
Reminder that urls aren’t automatically turned into links, but can easily be made linkable (thus contributing to site accessibility) by using the “link” button in the quick-access edit buttons immediately below the comment input window. (The link button is the one on the far right of the row of buttons just under the comment box.)
posted by eviemath at 10:42 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 10:42 AM on January 20 [2 favorites]
(And linking urls ourselves saves mod time for actual moderation, since otherwise the mods have to do it.)
posted by eviemath at 10:43 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 10:43 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
it's hard to deny that there are many, many more ways for someone who doesn't like social interaction much to get rich
Citation fuckin' needed.
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:35 AM on January 20 [9 favorites]
Citation fuckin' needed.
posted by inexorably_forward at 11:35 AM on January 20 [9 favorites]
it's hard to deny that there are many, many more ways for someone who doesn't like social interaction much to get rich
Yeah, I think this is actually really kind of...hmm, how to say it...conflating a lot of different issues together, shall we say.
So for example: extroversion is very apparent, and people who are extroverts often have an easier time getting along with others when they first meet them than people who are introverts. And if you're considering the entire set of people who think "I'm extroverted and people seem to like me when I first meet them" as "having people skills", I mean sure, you can do that, but that's not how it works and that's not how people in people-skills professions make money.
We have fallen out of the habit of talking about charisma, because it's not really something that can be learned or practiced, but it's one of the things that makes people into politicians, or high-priced lawyers, or executives. People want to be around them, people want to do business with them, and they want to have access to them. Those are the people who walk into a room and come out with three job offers that they weren't even trying for. Charisma is *incredibly* monetizable, but I'd say it's only about 5-10% of the overall population of extroverts at *best*. But the problem is, the people saying 'Monetize your people skills' are pitching to the other 95% that they can do exactly that and they're cruising for a really big disappointment.
posted by corb at 1:11 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Yeah, I think this is actually really kind of...hmm, how to say it...conflating a lot of different issues together, shall we say.
So for example: extroversion is very apparent, and people who are extroverts often have an easier time getting along with others when they first meet them than people who are introverts. And if you're considering the entire set of people who think "I'm extroverted and people seem to like me when I first meet them" as "having people skills", I mean sure, you can do that, but that's not how it works and that's not how people in people-skills professions make money.
We have fallen out of the habit of talking about charisma, because it's not really something that can be learned or practiced, but it's one of the things that makes people into politicians, or high-priced lawyers, or executives. People want to be around them, people want to do business with them, and they want to have access to them. Those are the people who walk into a room and come out with three job offers that they weren't even trying for. Charisma is *incredibly* monetizable, but I'd say it's only about 5-10% of the overall population of extroverts at *best*. But the problem is, the people saying 'Monetize your people skills' are pitching to the other 95% that they can do exactly that and they're cruising for a really big disappointment.
posted by corb at 1:11 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Assume everything is a grift until proven otherwise. You are dealing with humans, after all...
posted by jim in austin at 3:03 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 3:03 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
We have fallen out of the habit of talking about charisma
Rizz crowned Oxford Word of the Year 2023posted by achrise at 4:19 PM on January 20 [4 favorites]
> Assume everything is a grift until proven otherwise. You are dealing with humans, after all...That sounds like advice in the unredacted entry for Earth in the HHGttG. No wonder no one drops by for visits.
posted by Fiberoptic Zebroid and The Hypnagogic Jerks at 4:22 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]
Rizz crowned Oxford Word of the Year 2023
Rizz is really a subset of charisma though, isn't it? I'm old and out of touch sure, but you've got rizz if you aren't coming home from the club alone, if you are attractive, not if you are an effective leader that people want to listen to. We still aren't talking about the latter much.
posted by Dysk at 1:11 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
Rizz is really a subset of charisma though, isn't it? I'm old and out of touch sure, but you've got rizz if you aren't coming home from the club alone, if you are attractive, not if you are an effective leader that people want to listen to. We still aren't talking about the latter much.
posted by Dysk at 1:11 AM on January 21 [2 favorites]
(Then again, when the two upcoming political contests in the US and UK are between Biden and Trump, and Starmer and Sunak, it's easy to forget or ignore charisma as a factor. It's still present elsewhere, of course.)
posted by Dysk at 1:35 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Dysk at 1:35 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
>>>No wonder no one drops by for visits.
Just read an article on the rock group Devo and their theory that we're descended from brain eating canabalistic apes who went mad & lost their tales.
posted by Narrative_Historian at 7:14 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Just read an article on the rock group Devo and their theory that we're descended from brain eating canabalistic apes who went mad & lost their tales.
posted by Narrative_Historian at 7:14 PM on January 21 [1 favorite]
we're descended from brain eating canabalistic apes who went mad & lost their tales.
posted by Narrative_Historian
Eponystypoical? It’s quite the story, otherwise.
posted by eviemath at 7:42 PM on January 21
posted by Narrative_Historian
Eponystypoical? It’s quite the story, otherwise.
posted by eviemath at 7:42 PM on January 21
the concept of charisma makes sense to me when i view it through the lens of the word's original theological sense as having god-granted grace and charm. when someone has charisma, proper charisma, not just everyday charisma, it seems like they're practically walking around with byzantine halos behind their heads and everyone can see the halo, not just you. like, not a theist, but the theist take on the matter is the one that's gotten closest to my experience of being around actual charisma.
pretty sure the first time i was like "oh, to understand what this word means look to its original meaning" about the word charisma was upon watching barack obama on some talk show beneath his dignity back in the early 2010s or whatever. like holy shit, i thought, this man is moving through the world in this numinously correct way, different from the way that the rest of us mortals stumble around, it comes through in his smallest gestures, and whatever it is it cannot be fully described and absolutely positively cannot be looked away from, holy shit, holy shit.
yeah charisma can be monetized, if your imagination is so teensy that monetization is the most it can muster, but monetizing the special gifts of the holy spirit or whatever, granted specifically to you, that is just the dumbest thing, it's like if at the end of the matrix neo decided to just use his powers to get a promotion and a raise at the corporation he worked for as tom anderson. anyone who aims at getting the special blessings of the holy spirit or whatever because they want to monetize those blessings is pathetic, empty, and thirsty, and will never seem anything but pathetic, empty, and thirsty.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:05 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
pretty sure the first time i was like "oh, to understand what this word means look to its original meaning" about the word charisma was upon watching barack obama on some talk show beneath his dignity back in the early 2010s or whatever. like holy shit, i thought, this man is moving through the world in this numinously correct way, different from the way that the rest of us mortals stumble around, it comes through in his smallest gestures, and whatever it is it cannot be fully described and absolutely positively cannot be looked away from, holy shit, holy shit.
yeah charisma can be monetized, if your imagination is so teensy that monetization is the most it can muster, but monetizing the special gifts of the holy spirit or whatever, granted specifically to you, that is just the dumbest thing, it's like if at the end of the matrix neo decided to just use his powers to get a promotion and a raise at the corporation he worked for as tom anderson. anyone who aims at getting the special blessings of the holy spirit or whatever because they want to monetize those blessings is pathetic, empty, and thirsty, and will never seem anything but pathetic, empty, and thirsty.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 6:05 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
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posted by LeafToe at 4:15 AM on January 20 [25 favorites]