A slow civil war
January 22, 2024 5:36 AM Subscribe
The Trump movement is turning America fascist w/Jeff Sharlet The Chris Hedges Report on The Real News Network
An interview based on Jeff Sharlet's new book: Undertow; Scenes From a Slow Civil War.
Sharlet has many interesting insights, see/hear this just for the vivid description of the Trump rallies.
He draws the obvious parallels to the fascists in 20th Europe, but also points out the gnostic thinking inherent in the fascist world view.
NAZI TOWN from PBS is good as an appetizer.
Sharlet has many interesting insights, see/hear this just for the vivid description of the Trump rallies.
He draws the obvious parallels to the fascists in 20th Europe, but also points out the gnostic thinking inherent in the fascist world view.
NAZI TOWN from PBS is good as an appetizer.
I have been meaning to read the book, but every time I reach for it I wonder whether events have already passed it by. Is it still worth it?
posted by wenestvedt at 5:56 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by wenestvedt at 5:56 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
It's still worth it, there's some great on the ground reporting on scary megachurches and other weird America.
posted by johngoren at 6:00 AM on January 22 [7 favorites]
posted by johngoren at 6:00 AM on January 22 [7 favorites]
wenestvedt, I just read the book a couple of weeks ago, and would say it's not really the kind of political writing that goes stale soon after publishing (unlike...well, a lot of popular political books). Its power comes from its portraits of Trump's people, his believers, their desire for violence, and what they have to say for themselves, and even if Trump leaves the picture forever, there's still the question of how we move forward when people believe the things they believe.
posted by mittens at 6:02 AM on January 22 [26 favorites]
posted by mittens at 6:02 AM on January 22 [26 favorites]
my sister married a home-grown Nazi ~15 years ago and it broke our mom's heart.
In the year before mom's passing she was shocked at all the seditionist stuff he was posting to Facebook. They've moved from California to BFE PNW as part of this.
I make a conscious effort to avoid any and all debates with him; he's a very fundamentalist/dogmatic sola scriptura guy so I doubt we'd agree what general direction the sun rises in the morning.
posted by torokunai at 6:21 AM on January 22 [8 favorites]
In the year before mom's passing she was shocked at all the seditionist stuff he was posting to Facebook. They've moved from California to BFE PNW as part of this.
I make a conscious effort to avoid any and all debates with him; he's a very fundamentalist/dogmatic sola scriptura guy so I doubt we'd agree what general direction the sun rises in the morning.
posted by torokunai at 6:21 AM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I was visiting my mom, who lives just across the border on the Canadian side, this past weekend. She likes to have Good Morning America on in the background as she starts her day, and the coverage of Trump/the Republican primary was driving me so insane I would just leave the living room when those segments came on. Golly, that Trump sure is a controversial figure for some reason!
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:25 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:25 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
I thought Sharlet also had some good and perennial insight into the psychological appeal of Trump and more generally Prosperity Gospel type stuff.
posted by johngoren at 6:39 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
posted by johngoren at 6:39 AM on January 22 [5 favorites]
Leah Sotille did a great podcast called Bundyville, which dissected some of the roots of this as well from a PNW and Intermountain West POV (can’t find a link but it is still up on Apple Podcasts and NPR). It is also a good source if you want some backstory for the rise of Trump. First season is about the Bundys and their particular version of Christian America, and the second is about how all that connects to other terroristic religious elements that underly the rise of support for Trump or something like him.
posted by cybrcamper at 6:45 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
posted by cybrcamper at 6:45 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
"It's not about truth, reality or consistency; it's about catering to the emotional needs of the moment"
-- QFT from the Hedges podcast noted above
Trump's base is self-medicating/self-soothing when they listen to him.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:55 AM on January 22 [55 favorites]
-- QFT from the Hedges podcast noted above
Trump's base is self-medicating/self-soothing when they listen to him.
posted by zaixfeep at 6:55 AM on January 22 [55 favorites]
A good companion to Jeff Scharlett is Tim Alberta, who is approaching the same subject matter only as someone coming from inside the Evangelical movement who has been alienated out of his home church due to his writings on Trump. His recent book The Kingdom The Power And The Glory has had him making the talk show circuit. Here he is discussing the book with Christianity Today [44m], one of the better interviews I've heard him do.
posted by hippybear at 7:36 AM on January 22 [8 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 7:36 AM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I used to really admire Chris Hedges (I probably posted on MeFi at some point about his book "War is a Force that Gives Us Meaning" which really helped me understand the madnes that seemed to be affecting so many people during the Bush years), but ever since Hedges started taking a pay check from RT (formerly known as "Russia Today") I feel like he's not on the same side as me any more. Too many of his criticisms of the US and Democrats match up with Putin's. Too many of his criticisms of Trump downplay the ways in which Trump is different.
It's because these criticsisms have a kernal of truth that they're so dangerous. I feel like Hedges is propaganda meant to appeal to me personally, and stop me from voting. So anyway, I won't be watching this, sorry.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:41 AM on January 22 [59 favorites]
It's because these criticsisms have a kernal of truth that they're so dangerous. I feel like Hedges is propaganda meant to appeal to me personally, and stop me from voting. So anyway, I won't be watching this, sorry.
posted by OnceUponATime at 7:41 AM on January 22 [59 favorites]
OnceUponATime, excellent point, good to know. With no intent to rebut anyone here, I note the old saw, "Even the Devil can speak the truth if it's in his self-interest." That's how I approach news media these days -- I assume 'the Devil' is exerting some influence over all media information I consume and mentally deploy appropriate countermeasures.
posted by zaixfeep at 7:57 AM on January 22 [6 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 7:57 AM on January 22 [6 favorites]
Hedges is problematic, but Sharlet does most of the talking and it's fascinating and terrifying. Just 10 minutes in he's speaking about the Trump deadheads who travel from rally to rally to see him multiple times. They don't see the differences in his speeches as evidence of falsehood but as evidence of truth. So we've got that going for us.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:17 AM on January 22 [11 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:17 AM on January 22 [11 favorites]
I'll make an effort to understand Trump voters, but first I'd like to see any of them spend even five minutes sincerely trying to understand me. Not holding my breath.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:19 AM on January 22 [43 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 8:19 AM on January 22 [43 favorites]
I had a second thought but didn't remember it until too late. It's a memorandum for producers: You cannot make a professional recording with AirPods. It's always going to sound like complete garbage.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:30 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:30 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
There are a zillion hour-long interviews with Sharlet on YouTube, if you want to avoid Hedges. Here he is from a few months ago with The Bulwark, and here he is on Woodstock Community Television.
posted by hippybear at 8:30 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 8:30 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
OnceUponATime, thanks for the info, I'd been wondering what happened to Hedges, but not enough to search. The reason I found this was that I heard Sharlet on WTF, the link bq posted, and made a note to buy the book when I can and meanwhile I'm, listening to interviews.
IMO, this interview is better than the WTF one, and as ob1quixote says, Sharlet is doing most of the talking.
I'll make an effort to understand Trump voters, but first I'd like to see any of them spend even five minutes sincerely trying to understand me. Not holding my breath.
I totally agree. They are all violent human garbage. I don't need to understand them either. Which is why Sharlet's approach is interesting. There is none of all that apologetic BS we have had too much of during the last too many years. It's more about understanding why and how it is fascism and thus extremely dangerous.
posted by mumimor at 8:41 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
IMO, this interview is better than the WTF one, and as ob1quixote says, Sharlet is doing most of the talking.
I'll make an effort to understand Trump voters, but first I'd like to see any of them spend even five minutes sincerely trying to understand me. Not holding my breath.
I totally agree. They are all violent human garbage. I don't need to understand them either. Which is why Sharlet's approach is interesting. There is none of all that apologetic BS we have had too much of during the last too many years. It's more about understanding why and how it is fascism and thus extremely dangerous.
posted by mumimor at 8:41 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
For those that are TLDR of all this, when do we flip the switch of Rawlsian self-preservation and what does it look like?
Because my sense of history is that the people who successfully escaped fascism did so mostly in advance of it becoming a 'fast' civil war.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:56 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
Because my sense of history is that the people who successfully escaped fascism did so mostly in advance of it becoming a 'fast' civil war.
posted by Reasonably Everything Happens at 8:56 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
Honestly, I don't see any real value in understanding their mindset. At this point I'd rather focus on how to destroy them. I don't need to watch a documentary to understand that they aren't interested in reasoned debate, compromise, or even uneasy co-existence.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:09 AM on January 22 [36 favorites]
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:09 AM on January 22 [36 favorites]
Until the mainstream media indicates the origins to be evangelical disappointment at false promises, mostly Southern oriented, and with support from Russia to divide the center from the left, most people will see no reason to question their choice to join the bandwagon of fear.
posted by Brian B. at 9:11 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
posted by Brian B. at 9:11 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
Lots of interesting details in there, thanks for posting it. Just got to the part where fundamentalists have basically taken over chaplaincy in the armed forces, and mainline chaplains are no longer welcome.
A point that the interviewee made partway through: We don't know how to defeat fascism, because we haven't done it yet, so we should welcome everyone who has ideas to get out there and try them because we're all going to have to work together on multiple fronts to defeat this thing.
(Or something like that. I forget the exact wording.)
posted by clawsoon at 9:14 AM on January 22 [16 favorites]
A point that the interviewee made partway through: We don't know how to defeat fascism, because we haven't done it yet, so we should welcome everyone who has ideas to get out there and try them because we're all going to have to work together on multiple fronts to defeat this thing.
(Or something like that. I forget the exact wording.)
posted by clawsoon at 9:14 AM on January 22 [16 favorites]
In a Naomi Wolf/Klein moment, I just realized that I was confusing Chris Hedges with Chris Hayes.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 9:33 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 9:33 AM on January 22 [15 favorites]
I don't make that "destroy them" statement lightly, by the way. It's not just frustration in today's difficult moment. I grew up areligious in Texas, I know from a lifetime of experience what these peoples' definition of compromise is: Everyone does things MY way and YOU stop resisting and fall in line. And I don't mean backwoods survivalist fundamentalist wackos. I mean kindly-looking suburban moms who immediately go batshit crazy when they find out their daughter is sitting next to an atheist at school. To reiterate: they never, ever tried to empathize or understand my point of view in the slightest. Their only mode is conversion, never conversation.
Practically speaking, it doesn't matter if they are delusional enough to think that is genuine compromise or self-aware enough to know they are evil but not care. The only protection I had against them was a legal system that protected my rights. Once they capture that, it's game over. All you can do is destroy them, because their MO has always been to destroy anyone who doesn't accept their authority up to the limit of what the law will allow.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:35 AM on January 22 [91 favorites]
Practically speaking, it doesn't matter if they are delusional enough to think that is genuine compromise or self-aware enough to know they are evil but not care. The only protection I had against them was a legal system that protected my rights. Once they capture that, it's game over. All you can do is destroy them, because their MO has always been to destroy anyone who doesn't accept their authority up to the limit of what the law will allow.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 9:35 AM on January 22 [91 favorites]
It's a refreshing listen because it's not the usual NYT, "Let's try to understand these equal participants in our democracy whose voice deserves to be heard." It's more, "This is how the death cult is being promoted, this is where the death cult is being promoted, this is the death cult thrill that's getting them excited about violence, this needs to be taken seriously and stopped."
(Churches, FWIW. According to the interviewee, lot of this is happening in big cult-of-the-preacher megachurches and in little it's-time-for-violence militia churches.)
posted by clawsoon at 9:38 AM on January 22 [25 favorites]
(Churches, FWIW. According to the interviewee, lot of this is happening in big cult-of-the-preacher megachurches and in little it's-time-for-violence militia churches.)
posted by clawsoon at 9:38 AM on January 22 [25 favorites]
are there pro-democracy militias training as we speak?
are there people getting survival/combat experience who are semi-organized to be ready when the Shit Goes Down?
ostensibly, that's the state and the armed forces. I guess I'm just struck by how the fascist terrorists have been mobilizing for generations, meanwhile the state is often just the less bad option that ostensibly keeps the whole mess glued together, and the people who are required to ensure the mess stays glued together are struggling to remain solvent and housed in some instances, or are simply too busy with Netflix, and a few of us share stories on the internet about the looming issue of fascism, and an absolute turnip of a fucker is dominating our headspace in their bid to be re-elected while the less worse option is a pretty Old Dude who doesn't mind abetting genocide
I don't know what to say at this point
posted by elkevelvet at 9:44 AM on January 22 [11 favorites]
are there people getting survival/combat experience who are semi-organized to be ready when the Shit Goes Down?
ostensibly, that's the state and the armed forces. I guess I'm just struck by how the fascist terrorists have been mobilizing for generations, meanwhile the state is often just the less bad option that ostensibly keeps the whole mess glued together, and the people who are required to ensure the mess stays glued together are struggling to remain solvent and housed in some instances, or are simply too busy with Netflix, and a few of us share stories on the internet about the looming issue of fascism, and an absolute turnip of a fucker is dominating our headspace in their bid to be re-elected while the less worse option is a pretty Old Dude who doesn't mind abetting genocide
I don't know what to say at this point
posted by elkevelvet at 9:44 AM on January 22 [11 favorites]
> elkevelvet
I'm not sure "militia" is a helpful word or idea, but I've definitely seen many on the queer left decide that it was time to learn about guns and gun culture.
We lost the argument on gun control, so we might as well start to learn how they work and what they are. For many on the right, owning guns is a central part of their culture. For self defense, for hunting, and for community.
I bought a law school textbook about second amendment rights, and they go all the way back to King Alfred in England as a wellspring for American gun laws.
posted by constraint at 10:00 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure "militia" is a helpful word or idea, but I've definitely seen many on the queer left decide that it was time to learn about guns and gun culture.
We lost the argument on gun control, so we might as well start to learn how they work and what they are. For many on the right, owning guns is a central part of their culture. For self defense, for hunting, and for community.
I bought a law school textbook about second amendment rights, and they go all the way back to King Alfred in England as a wellspring for American gun laws.
posted by constraint at 10:00 AM on January 22 [9 favorites]
I see what happened to Chris Hedges as being analogous to what happened to Phil Donohue in the early oughts, except it's a different person with different motivations and values.
Donohue was kicked off TV for taking some principled stands and asking questions that it turned out you're not allowed to take or ask even on an ostensibly liberal outlet like MSNBC when the country has decided Who The Enemy Is.
Hedges has had a similar treatment applied to him; a man who cannot simply go along with jingoistic demands, but instead of just lying down and taking it and lettiing his career end, which Donohue was in a much better place to do philosophically, monetarily and in terms of where in his life he was, Hedges didn't accept that. He still needs to eat, and his opinions and values, as far as I can tell, haven't actually changed. He's still Chris Hedges, and it makes folks uncomfortable, because Being Chris Hedges was awesome when Bush was president, but the things that Made Him Chris Hedges are still happening under every president after Bush, and he didn't stop Being Chris Hedges, and that means he's going to say stuff about people you like that you may find uncomfortable to hear.
That's the thing about living in the center of the global empire/hegemon/military seat of capitalism: where you are and your subjectivity in the imperial core doesn't change a bit because of who is president, and Chris Hedges approaches it that way.
posted by turntraitor at 11:15 AM on January 22 [20 favorites]
Donohue was kicked off TV for taking some principled stands and asking questions that it turned out you're not allowed to take or ask even on an ostensibly liberal outlet like MSNBC when the country has decided Who The Enemy Is.
Hedges has had a similar treatment applied to him; a man who cannot simply go along with jingoistic demands, but instead of just lying down and taking it and lettiing his career end, which Donohue was in a much better place to do philosophically, monetarily and in terms of where in his life he was, Hedges didn't accept that. He still needs to eat, and his opinions and values, as far as I can tell, haven't actually changed. He's still Chris Hedges, and it makes folks uncomfortable, because Being Chris Hedges was awesome when Bush was president, but the things that Made Him Chris Hedges are still happening under every president after Bush, and he didn't stop Being Chris Hedges, and that means he's going to say stuff about people you like that you may find uncomfortable to hear.
That's the thing about living in the center of the global empire/hegemon/military seat of capitalism: where you are and your subjectivity in the imperial core doesn't change a bit because of who is president, and Chris Hedges approaches it that way.
posted by turntraitor at 11:15 AM on January 22 [20 favorites]
If you're really against war you don't work for Putin.
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:21 AM on January 22 [39 favorites]
posted by OnceUponATime at 11:21 AM on January 22 [39 favorites]
Another thing I like is how he ties what's happening now to the Civil Rights movement. Today is a continuation of that era in many ways - we're not seeing new violence, we're seeing a resurrection of a long history of American violence. Our response has to be to resurrect our own side of that fight.
posted by clawsoon at 11:21 AM on January 22 [21 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:21 AM on January 22 [21 favorites]
I guess I'm just struck by how the fascist terrorists have been mobilizing for generations
The anti-fascist and punk music scenes are particularly intertwined in some complex ways. But a broader look at even recent history still includes everything from the Black Panther Party to the Weather Underground.
There are also modern analogues, but you have to be careful because the far-right's obsession with specific individuals (like Hillary Clinton) or group names like Antifa results in some... well...bizarre things.
The concern is real. This is a very real threat. But the fascists still represent a numerical minority that holds on to political relevance by gerrymandering and rural-area-favoring institutions like the Senate. They have also been countered, sometimes with their own tactics, pretty consistently.
2020 alone should outline that there are more people willing to throw down with TFG's goons than he has goons. That might not make 2024 less nauseating... but let's not overlook when they've lost the fights they started.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:24 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
The anti-fascist and punk music scenes are particularly intertwined in some complex ways. But a broader look at even recent history still includes everything from the Black Panther Party to the Weather Underground.
There are also modern analogues, but you have to be careful because the far-right's obsession with specific individuals (like Hillary Clinton) or group names like Antifa results in some... well...bizarre things.
The concern is real. This is a very real threat. But the fascists still represent a numerical minority that holds on to political relevance by gerrymandering and rural-area-favoring institutions like the Senate. They have also been countered, sometimes with their own tactics, pretty consistently.
2020 alone should outline that there are more people willing to throw down with TFG's goons than he has goons. That might not make 2024 less nauseating... but let's not overlook when they've lost the fights they started.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:24 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
Too many of his criticisms of the US and Democrats match up with Putin's
If the worst person in the world makes criticisms similar to mine, I'm not changing my position solely because of their reputation.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:29 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
If the worst person in the world makes criticisms similar to mine, I'm not changing my position solely because of their reputation.
posted by Dark Messiah at 11:29 AM on January 22 [10 favorites]
(i mean while we're critiquing hedges there's always the plagiarism to talk about)
posted by mittens at 11:32 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
posted by mittens at 11:32 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
>If you're really against war you don't work for Putin.
Or the US government! Or really any major power in the world. There aren't any clean hands to be found.
People gotta eat, and if Hedges can live with himself and take the check, that's his soul to look after. If reading his stuff doesn't feel any different based on where he's drawing a check from now, that's my soul taken care of too.
I am just over and done with worrying if things are Russian Propaganda. The moment that ostensibly liberal commenters decided there must be Russians working to drive the BLM protests because why else would people be upset enough to get into the streets, I knew that goose was cooked.
posted by turntraitor at 11:51 AM on January 22 [14 favorites]
Or the US government! Or really any major power in the world. There aren't any clean hands to be found.
People gotta eat, and if Hedges can live with himself and take the check, that's his soul to look after. If reading his stuff doesn't feel any different based on where he's drawing a check from now, that's my soul taken care of too.
I am just over and done with worrying if things are Russian Propaganda. The moment that ostensibly liberal commenters decided there must be Russians working to drive the BLM protests because why else would people be upset enough to get into the streets, I knew that goose was cooked.
posted by turntraitor at 11:51 AM on January 22 [14 favorites]
Today is a continuation of that era in many ways - we're not seeing new violence, we're seeing a resurrection of a long history of American violence
I think that's it, in a nutshell. To pile onto that:
For chunks of very recent history they didn't need to engage in widespread violence. They got what they wanted anyway. The flare ups under Clinton (i.e. the last big Militia Movement) and Obama were tempered in large part because their agenda isn't to pass legislation. It's to obstruct and slow roll stacking the Supreme Court. Which they did successfully.
The threat of renewed violence now is because they rightly perceive that even with the institutional advantages they have, their ability to inflict a minoritarian government on the rest of the country is lessened. No Republican president has won the popular vote in the 21st century save for W in 2004. For some people there's a feeling that TFG 2024 may be their last shot at inflicting their will on rest of the country for a generation. So they're prepared to go all-in to get it.
For them violence is back on the table simply because it's useful again.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:51 AM on January 22 [21 favorites]
I think that's it, in a nutshell. To pile onto that:
For chunks of very recent history they didn't need to engage in widespread violence. They got what they wanted anyway. The flare ups under Clinton (i.e. the last big Militia Movement) and Obama were tempered in large part because their agenda isn't to pass legislation. It's to obstruct and slow roll stacking the Supreme Court. Which they did successfully.
The threat of renewed violence now is because they rightly perceive that even with the institutional advantages they have, their ability to inflict a minoritarian government on the rest of the country is lessened. No Republican president has won the popular vote in the 21st century save for W in 2004. For some people there's a feeling that TFG 2024 may be their last shot at inflicting their will on rest of the country for a generation. So they're prepared to go all-in to get it.
For them violence is back on the table simply because it's useful again.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:51 AM on January 22 [21 favorites]
Trump VP hopeful Tim Scott got engaged to Mindy Noce. Her status as Scott's girlfriend was announced by his campaign back in November in response to growing rumors about his sexuality among Republicans. She's a divorced mother of 3 who has an interior design business in the low country of South Carolina. Her ex-husband Peter Noce is a "tech entrepreneur". She and her ex-husband had a home automation company called Bravas LLC. They were sued by an investor over hiding assets in an attempt shield themselves from a judgment in a deal gone wrong.
posted by interogative mood at 11:54 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 11:54 AM on January 22 [3 favorites]
howbigisthistextfield: The threat of renewed violence now is because they rightly perceive that even with the institutional advantages they have, their ability to inflict a minoritarian government on the rest of the country is lessened.
I think that fear of loss of the possibility of power might only be half of the equation.
I was reading a book about working-class movements in England that got me thinking about this. When Chartism seemed like it could make shit happen, millions of people flocked to the movement. When Chartism was stymied, they drifted away. Then imperialism and becoming a nation of respectable Victorian gentlemen seemed like it would make shit happen, so millions tried that out. Then it was socialism, then WWI patriotism.
In every case, it wasn't just, "We don't have the power to accomplish what we want to." It was also, "This movement seems like it could give us that power." When a movement showed promise, offered hope, seemed like it could get shit done - that's when people flocked to it.
And that's a big part of what Trump is offering. The content of his message might not match that of English working class movements of the 1800s, but the energy and possibility is there. The giddiness of, "We might actually overthrow this government! It's possible!" is in the air, and is kept there by every Trump rally. And that's an important part of what's keeping the movement going.
posted by clawsoon at 12:27 PM on January 22 [38 favorites]
I think that fear of loss of the possibility of power might only be half of the equation.
I was reading a book about working-class movements in England that got me thinking about this. When Chartism seemed like it could make shit happen, millions of people flocked to the movement. When Chartism was stymied, they drifted away. Then imperialism and becoming a nation of respectable Victorian gentlemen seemed like it would make shit happen, so millions tried that out. Then it was socialism, then WWI patriotism.
In every case, it wasn't just, "We don't have the power to accomplish what we want to." It was also, "This movement seems like it could give us that power." When a movement showed promise, offered hope, seemed like it could get shit done - that's when people flocked to it.
And that's a big part of what Trump is offering. The content of his message might not match that of English working class movements of the 1800s, but the energy and possibility is there. The giddiness of, "We might actually overthrow this government! It's possible!" is in the air, and is kept there by every Trump rally. And that's an important part of what's keeping the movement going.
posted by clawsoon at 12:27 PM on January 22 [38 favorites]
Yeah, the big problem with opposing Fascist movements, or really any other sort of soft/slow/quiet civil war is that it's unthinkable, silly to even contemplate, what are you some sort of paranoid hyper leftist, right up until it crystalizes like a supersaturated solution and suddenly you have Fascism.
I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
The first says that America is a white Christian ethnostate, all others can never be real Americans, and immigration should be limited only to white people.
The second says that America is a nation anyone [1] can join and be a full citizen of [2].
The two factions are incapable of compromise on their core difference. You can't have half an ethnostate.
So now we're watching another move by the white nationalist faction towards Fascism and like always those people sounding the alarm are held up as paranoids. And we might be. I have no clue how serious the Trumpers are.
I suspect the Trumpers don't know how serious they are. On 1/6 they wavered, they'd gone further than they ever thought they could and in the absene of strong leadership from Trump or even one of his lackies, they dithered long enough for the capitol police to keep them from murdering Congress.
I think they're more confident in thier strength now, the way the Republican Party as a whole is either actively lionizing the 1/6 insurrectionists or at the very lest passively going along with it, shows them that there are powerful people who approve of what they're doing and might actually be able to protect them.
Will there be violence? I have no clue. I hope not. But, we're at that uncertain, vague, phase of a Fascist takeover. That time when you don't know if you've actually crossed a threshold and the movment is basically in eclipse phase [3], or if it's all just nerves on your part.
I don't know what we can do. I'd like to hope that behind the scenes Biden et al are taking measures to counter Trumper violence. I do know the cops are on the Fascist side, the only question is how actively they'll support fascism.
[1] Ahem, wellllll...... Anyone that in that particular instant in time was considered acceptable to the more liberal cis het white male Americans. It's an ever shifting target.
[2] Wellll...... Except for people that the more liberal cis het white Christian men think don't count as poeple. Women, for example, who arguably didn't become full citizens in the USA until, um, well never actually. Even post-Roe there remained limits on women that did not apply to men and made women less than actaul full and equal citizens in the USA.
[3] The phase of virus takeover of a cell when there is no outward indicaation that the cell has been infested, but it's completely taken over and there is no recovery.
posted by sotonohito at 12:32 PM on January 22 [31 favorites]
I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
The first says that America is a white Christian ethnostate, all others can never be real Americans, and immigration should be limited only to white people.
The second says that America is a nation anyone [1] can join and be a full citizen of [2].
The two factions are incapable of compromise on their core difference. You can't have half an ethnostate.
So now we're watching another move by the white nationalist faction towards Fascism and like always those people sounding the alarm are held up as paranoids. And we might be. I have no clue how serious the Trumpers are.
I suspect the Trumpers don't know how serious they are. On 1/6 they wavered, they'd gone further than they ever thought they could and in the absene of strong leadership from Trump or even one of his lackies, they dithered long enough for the capitol police to keep them from murdering Congress.
I think they're more confident in thier strength now, the way the Republican Party as a whole is either actively lionizing the 1/6 insurrectionists or at the very lest passively going along with it, shows them that there are powerful people who approve of what they're doing and might actually be able to protect them.
Will there be violence? I have no clue. I hope not. But, we're at that uncertain, vague, phase of a Fascist takeover. That time when you don't know if you've actually crossed a threshold and the movment is basically in eclipse phase [3], or if it's all just nerves on your part.
I don't know what we can do. I'd like to hope that behind the scenes Biden et al are taking measures to counter Trumper violence. I do know the cops are on the Fascist side, the only question is how actively they'll support fascism.
[1] Ahem, wellllll...... Anyone that in that particular instant in time was considered acceptable to the more liberal cis het white male Americans. It's an ever shifting target.
[2] Wellll...... Except for people that the more liberal cis het white Christian men think don't count as poeple. Women, for example, who arguably didn't become full citizens in the USA until, um, well never actually. Even post-Roe there remained limits on women that did not apply to men and made women less than actaul full and equal citizens in the USA.
[3] The phase of virus takeover of a cell when there is no outward indicaation that the cell has been infested, but it's completely taken over and there is no recovery.
posted by sotonohito at 12:32 PM on January 22 [31 favorites]
If you're really against war you don't work for Putin.
Unless it's Putin's war.
posted by Brian B. at 12:42 PM on January 22
Unless it's Putin's war.
posted by Brian B. at 12:42 PM on January 22
And I just know that I'm going to get massive pushback, but might I suggest that there is a simple way for the Democrats to both gain the support of many people and possibly sap the will from the Trumpers is to become the Party that GENUINELY appeals to the working class as opposed to Trump's faux populism that only repackages racism and sells it as a solution to economic issues.
America is, frankly, on the brink of revolution with or without Trump. The people won't keep being abused by the rich forever. It might take a few decades if there isn't a Trump around but eventually there's going to be real populism that will overthrow a government self evidently incapable of fixing the problem.
Democrats who'd like to avoid that might want to contemplate actually giving people something to vote for, and promote some real socialism to relieve the stress. Campaign on some real trustbusting, taxing the rich, redistributing wealth, and getting working people better conditions and money.
Cuz I'll point out that while it's all lies that IS how Trump is packaging his racism: as pseudo-socialism that will make their economic lives better.
posted by sotonohito at 12:42 PM on January 22 [48 favorites]
America is, frankly, on the brink of revolution with or without Trump. The people won't keep being abused by the rich forever. It might take a few decades if there isn't a Trump around but eventually there's going to be real populism that will overthrow a government self evidently incapable of fixing the problem.
Democrats who'd like to avoid that might want to contemplate actually giving people something to vote for, and promote some real socialism to relieve the stress. Campaign on some real trustbusting, taxing the rich, redistributing wealth, and getting working people better conditions and money.
Cuz I'll point out that while it's all lies that IS how Trump is packaging his racism: as pseudo-socialism that will make their economic lives better.
posted by sotonohito at 12:42 PM on January 22 [48 favorites]
A distinguished liberal German immigrant to the US in the 19th century (after fleeing his native land after the failure of their own mid-century reform effort) apparently amended Stephen Decatur's early jingoistic:
“My country, right or wrong!" to:
“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
This describes the current left/right divide well enough I guess, as Ron DeSantis campaign slogan / SuperPAC "Never Back Down" distilled & decanted the unthinking man's slogan.
posted by torokunai at 12:49 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
“My country, right or wrong!" to:
“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”
This describes the current left/right divide well enough I guess, as Ron DeSantis campaign slogan / SuperPAC "Never Back Down" distilled & decanted the unthinking man's slogan.
posted by torokunai at 12:49 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
but might I suggest that there is a simple way for the Democrats to both gain the support of many people and possibly sap the will from the Trumpers is to become the Party that GENUINELY appeals to the working class as opposed to Trump's faux populism that only repackages racism and sells it as a solution to economic issues.
It's extremely frustrating/infuriating/sad/hoplessness-inducing that here we are saying the same things over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's like liberals will exhaust every action and avenue possible and take us to the absolute brink (with God knows how many lives taken or destroyed in the process) before they'll just acknowledge this point and get out of the way.
posted by flamk at 12:52 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
It's extremely frustrating/infuriating/sad/hoplessness-inducing that here we are saying the same things over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's like liberals will exhaust every action and avenue possible and take us to the absolute brink (with God knows how many lives taken or destroyed in the process) before they'll just acknowledge this point and get out of the way.
posted by flamk at 12:52 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
@sotonohito nails the crux with
> I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
Yes. Some sizeable fraction, maybe more than 20%, of my fellow Americans are (what I would consider) not very good Americans, who believe that many of their fellow Americans are not really Americans at all. This was effectively obscured by Cold War effects on the national narrative while that was happening, that is, the whole time I was growing up. So it has been a nasty shock to me since 2016 to see what my fellow Americans will turn out to vote for. It turns out that when the question is "Truth, Justice and the American Way," one of these things is not like the others. At least not unequivocally.
Whether there could really be a "civil war," I have a hard time seeing that. I have a hard time seeing who could organize rebel forces that could stand up to the US Army, as long as the latter continues to exist in anything like its current form. I can see prospects for takeover, starting with Trump "winning" a 2nd term. I think a Trump national security cabinet could reluctantly conclude that the US needs a system of internal detention camps for housing unreliable citizens, and that they could just go ahead and start building that and nobody would stop them. And once it became known to the local cops that, if you arrest somebody and take him to the Feds they will keep him off the streets, the cops will be falling all over themselves to send the first wave of prisoners to the camps. And these actual criminals will prove vital, later, as a source of trustees among the inmates, once the political prisoners start to arrive.
Fascist takeover by establishing facts on the ground seems more likely than shooting war, I mean to suggest.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 12:58 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
> I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
Yes. Some sizeable fraction, maybe more than 20%, of my fellow Americans are (what I would consider) not very good Americans, who believe that many of their fellow Americans are not really Americans at all. This was effectively obscured by Cold War effects on the national narrative while that was happening, that is, the whole time I was growing up. So it has been a nasty shock to me since 2016 to see what my fellow Americans will turn out to vote for. It turns out that when the question is "Truth, Justice and the American Way," one of these things is not like the others. At least not unequivocally.
Whether there could really be a "civil war," I have a hard time seeing that. I have a hard time seeing who could organize rebel forces that could stand up to the US Army, as long as the latter continues to exist in anything like its current form. I can see prospects for takeover, starting with Trump "winning" a 2nd term. I think a Trump national security cabinet could reluctantly conclude that the US needs a system of internal detention camps for housing unreliable citizens, and that they could just go ahead and start building that and nobody would stop them. And once it became known to the local cops that, if you arrest somebody and take him to the Feds they will keep him off the streets, the cops will be falling all over themselves to send the first wave of prisoners to the camps. And these actual criminals will prove vital, later, as a source of trustees among the inmates, once the political prisoners start to arrive.
Fascist takeover by establishing facts on the ground seems more likely than shooting war, I mean to suggest.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 12:58 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
is to become the Party that GENUINELY appeals to the working class
I remember when they voted for Reagan the first time. The working class doesn't overwhelmingly see itself as a class in America. They invest to own homes, farms, bars and small businesses, maybe stock too. They are as racist as anyone else, maybe more. They were long co-opted by the right wing, using religion and now replacement theory. Immigration is among their top concerns and they would say it is a genuine concern, and if they are mistaken for thinking so, no party appeal would work anyway. Conservatives are meeting them where they are at, not where they should be. The stark fact is that working folks see themselves as paid though skill and collective bargaining and either already have retirement and health insurance or hope to get it promotionally.
posted by Brian B. at 1:08 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I remember when they voted for Reagan the first time. The working class doesn't overwhelmingly see itself as a class in America. They invest to own homes, farms, bars and small businesses, maybe stock too. They are as racist as anyone else, maybe more. They were long co-opted by the right wing, using religion and now replacement theory. Immigration is among their top concerns and they would say it is a genuine concern, and if they are mistaken for thinking so, no party appeal would work anyway. Conservatives are meeting them where they are at, not where they should be. The stark fact is that working folks see themselves as paid though skill and collective bargaining and either already have retirement and health insurance or hope to get it promotionally.
posted by Brian B. at 1:08 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
@sotonohito nails the crux with
> I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
Except for that it isn't true that anyone at the founding of America thought that anyone could move here and become a citizen. I understand the sentiment, but any actual reading of the founding of the US involves seeing all kinds of debate that finally settles on you need to be a male landowner to be deserving of citizenship, and this pretty much didn't change that much until after the Civil War.
I'm really not a fan of Originalism in any large extent, but I really don't think these two models have been part of America since the very beginning.
I mean the reason for Rhode Island even existing is that it was a catch-all for everyone that none of the rest of the colonies could stand due to them being apostate to various religious groups which dominated the colonies during the times. The entire colonial experiment of the US was founded on, at its beginning, having the UK kick out all the people who were too religiously extreme to exist in their own society. The Puritans, but many many other fringe extremist groups too.
This is not a country that was founded on acceptance. The main reason for the colonies banding together, aside from mutual side-eye toward the UK, was that the different colonies were self-governing enclaves which were charging a ton of tariffs for inter-colony trade and were shutting off waterways to traffic without paying tolls. This was becoming untenable, and is why so much of the Constitution is about how Congress has oversight of interstate trade.
I'm not a deep student of history, but even my limited understand of how and why the US came into existence, it had nothing about fairness or citizenship at its core, and the only citizens were very privileged people. And this took generations to unwind and expand and even today remains imperfect.
posted by hippybear at 1:11 PM on January 22 [25 favorites]
> I'd argue that from the very beginning there have been two competing models for what America is, and what it means to be American.
Except for that it isn't true that anyone at the founding of America thought that anyone could move here and become a citizen. I understand the sentiment, but any actual reading of the founding of the US involves seeing all kinds of debate that finally settles on you need to be a male landowner to be deserving of citizenship, and this pretty much didn't change that much until after the Civil War.
I'm really not a fan of Originalism in any large extent, but I really don't think these two models have been part of America since the very beginning.
I mean the reason for Rhode Island even existing is that it was a catch-all for everyone that none of the rest of the colonies could stand due to them being apostate to various religious groups which dominated the colonies during the times. The entire colonial experiment of the US was founded on, at its beginning, having the UK kick out all the people who were too religiously extreme to exist in their own society. The Puritans, but many many other fringe extremist groups too.
This is not a country that was founded on acceptance. The main reason for the colonies banding together, aside from mutual side-eye toward the UK, was that the different colonies were self-governing enclaves which were charging a ton of tariffs for inter-colony trade and were shutting off waterways to traffic without paying tolls. This was becoming untenable, and is why so much of the Constitution is about how Congress has oversight of interstate trade.
I'm not a deep student of history, but even my limited understand of how and why the US came into existence, it had nothing about fairness or citizenship at its core, and the only citizens were very privileged people. And this took generations to unwind and expand and even today remains imperfect.
posted by hippybear at 1:11 PM on January 22 [25 favorites]
I'm not sure "militia" is a helpful word or idea, but I've definitely seen many on the queer left decide that it was time to learn about guns and gun culture.
Just weighing in on the "this isn't a new change, it's a current manifestation of long term conflicts in American culture" side of the thing... this type of shit, too, is not new. In fact, California's gun control laws were enacted explicitly, with full-throated NRA support, because the Black Panthers were encouraging more gun ownership among black people. For that matter, the queer-oriented Pink Pistols were founded in 2000 almost 25 years ago, aiming to help patrol and protect queer people against gay-bashing.
Ironically, probably the best thing you could do to drive more gun control is to have more people wearing big scary leftist costumes peacefully holding guns. We could do worse than to learn from the Panthers and the many important legacies they left us.
I am also cheerfully uncertain that Democrats are not trying to achieve populist solutions that appeal especially to working class Americans, particularly on the administrative end of things rather than with respect to foreign policy. We're not great at talking about it, but there have actually been quite a lot of little wins domestically over the past four years, and I am pretty confident there will be more if we can get a supermajority in office that can resolve some of the deadlock. It's a high stakes year but that just means it's more important to find places to take a break from despair.
Bluntly, if you are not finding lots of Americans who think fascism is absolutely unacceptable and find the idea of a second Trump presidency wildly terrifying, you are not talking to enough real Americans. That holds true nationwide. This movement is frightening--I'm not going to deny that--but we're not looking at the domestic tyranny of Woodrow Wilson here. The popular support is a lot weaker than its blustering adherents keep trying to convince themselves, and they have to work pretty hard (and tolerate some very frightening lunacy that makes things.... ineffective and unpalatable) to do it. That means that there's a good shot, with sufficient support and momentum, at fixing this nation--if only enough people believe both that it's possible and that their aid will help build a better future.
posted by sciatrix at 1:14 PM on January 22 [24 favorites]
Just weighing in on the "this isn't a new change, it's a current manifestation of long term conflicts in American culture" side of the thing... this type of shit, too, is not new. In fact, California's gun control laws were enacted explicitly, with full-throated NRA support, because the Black Panthers were encouraging more gun ownership among black people. For that matter, the queer-oriented Pink Pistols were founded in 2000 almost 25 years ago, aiming to help patrol and protect queer people against gay-bashing.
Ironically, probably the best thing you could do to drive more gun control is to have more people wearing big scary leftist costumes peacefully holding guns. We could do worse than to learn from the Panthers and the many important legacies they left us.
I am also cheerfully uncertain that Democrats are not trying to achieve populist solutions that appeal especially to working class Americans, particularly on the administrative end of things rather than with respect to foreign policy. We're not great at talking about it, but there have actually been quite a lot of little wins domestically over the past four years, and I am pretty confident there will be more if we can get a supermajority in office that can resolve some of the deadlock. It's a high stakes year but that just means it's more important to find places to take a break from despair.
Bluntly, if you are not finding lots of Americans who think fascism is absolutely unacceptable and find the idea of a second Trump presidency wildly terrifying, you are not talking to enough real Americans. That holds true nationwide. This movement is frightening--I'm not going to deny that--but we're not looking at the domestic tyranny of Woodrow Wilson here. The popular support is a lot weaker than its blustering adherents keep trying to convince themselves, and they have to work pretty hard (and tolerate some very frightening lunacy that makes things.... ineffective and unpalatable) to do it. That means that there's a good shot, with sufficient support and momentum, at fixing this nation--if only enough people believe both that it's possible and that their aid will help build a better future.
posted by sciatrix at 1:14 PM on January 22 [24 favorites]
hippy bear: I mean the reason for Rhode Island even existing is that it was a catch-all for everyone that none of the rest of the colonies could stand ...
*Waves both middle fingers cheerily from Rhode Island* Same as it ever was, I guess.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:15 PM on January 22 [10 favorites]
*Waves both middle fingers cheerily from Rhode Island* Same as it ever was, I guess.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:15 PM on January 22 [10 favorites]
wenest vedt: I meant no personal offense. Historical fact has nothing to do with modern realities.
posted by hippybear at 1:18 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 1:18 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
And that's a big part of what Trump is offering. The content of his message might not match that of English working class movements of the 1800s, but the energy and possibility is there. The giddiness of, "We might actually overthrow this government! It's possible!" is in the air, and is kept there by every Trump rally. And that's an important part of what's keeping the movement going.
Which has been the persistent undercurrent of the fringe right for decades.
It used to be that "we're gonna march on Washington with guns and ropes" was the province of white supremacist manifestos and occasional weirdos handing out pamphlets outside the post office, of course. D-list radio hosts desperate for ratings used those tropes. The mainstream agitators were savvy enough to use coded language, dog whistles, insinuations and back channels to keep their base at a prolonged simmer. Now we have prominent media figures, Fox News hosts, and actual sitting members of Congress not just insulting Biden and their political and media peers, but openly calling them traitors and calling for their prosecution for crimes potentially punishable by death. And the general public's still shrugging that off.
Catch-22, in its most elemental form, is stated simply: They can do anything that we can't stop them from doing. Well, what has the federal government demonstrated that they can stop the conservative fringe from doing?
The people who want government to help no one and to punish the Other, the people who want gun-toting people everywhere in society, the people who have neutered Congress, the people who have rigged SCOTUS, the people who want impeachment to be a national joke, the people who contributed to a violent coup attempt and are STILL THERE in Congress and on TV and on the radio and running for office because only foot soldiers and useful idiots get charged... they're all grinning like hyenas, every single day, because they've demonstrated that the system is toothless. Process and precedent and decorum and civility do nothing to bind those who have rejected that the system has any authority or jurisdiction over their actions, simply because it lacks the power to punish them for violating norms or breaking laws.
"We might actually overthrow this government!" seems more realistic when one party openly calls for exactly that, for returning America to fifty little fiefdoms that can discriminate as they choose to, and when the other party stands by and waits for normality to resume.
posted by delfin at 1:18 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
Which has been the persistent undercurrent of the fringe right for decades.
It used to be that "we're gonna march on Washington with guns and ropes" was the province of white supremacist manifestos and occasional weirdos handing out pamphlets outside the post office, of course. D-list radio hosts desperate for ratings used those tropes. The mainstream agitators were savvy enough to use coded language, dog whistles, insinuations and back channels to keep their base at a prolonged simmer. Now we have prominent media figures, Fox News hosts, and actual sitting members of Congress not just insulting Biden and their political and media peers, but openly calling them traitors and calling for their prosecution for crimes potentially punishable by death. And the general public's still shrugging that off.
Catch-22, in its most elemental form, is stated simply: They can do anything that we can't stop them from doing. Well, what has the federal government demonstrated that they can stop the conservative fringe from doing?
The people who want government to help no one and to punish the Other, the people who want gun-toting people everywhere in society, the people who have neutered Congress, the people who have rigged SCOTUS, the people who want impeachment to be a national joke, the people who contributed to a violent coup attempt and are STILL THERE in Congress and on TV and on the radio and running for office because only foot soldiers and useful idiots get charged... they're all grinning like hyenas, every single day, because they've demonstrated that the system is toothless. Process and precedent and decorum and civility do nothing to bind those who have rejected that the system has any authority or jurisdiction over their actions, simply because it lacks the power to punish them for violating norms or breaking laws.
"We might actually overthrow this government!" seems more realistic when one party openly calls for exactly that, for returning America to fifty little fiefdoms that can discriminate as they choose to, and when the other party stands by and waits for normality to resume.
posted by delfin at 1:18 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
flamk: It's extremely frustrating/infuriating/sad/hoplessness-inducing that here we are saying the same things over and over and over and over and over and over again. It's like liberals will exhaust every action and avenue possible and take us to the absolute brink (with God knows how many lives taken or destroyed in the process) before they'll just acknowledge this point and get out of the way.
Still, while [JPMorgan CEO] Dimon also echoed the sentiment that an apocalypse is unlikely, he did note he hopes “the country survives” with either the reelection of President Joe Biden or the return of Trump to the White House, even as some fear American democracy would be threatened by his return.posted by clawsoon at 1:20 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
“I will be prepared for both, we will deal with both, my company will survive and thrive in both,” Dimon said.
hippybear: I meant no personal offense.
None taken! This place is *full* of assholes! :7) Come to Little Rhodey and I will buy you a beer or coffee, any ol' time.
It's amazing to me that some Americans think the rest of the country needs to be corrected with violence, while others will happily give someone the finger with one hand while extending their other hand in welcome.
I just don't understand the haters.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:24 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
None taken! This place is *full* of assholes! :7) Come to Little Rhodey and I will buy you a beer or coffee, any ol' time.
It's amazing to me that some Americans think the rest of the country needs to be corrected with violence, while others will happily give someone the finger with one hand while extending their other hand in welcome.
I just don't understand the haters.
posted by wenestvedt at 1:24 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
If you'd like to talk to talk more about The Undertow, please stop by this post on FanFare.
Supplemental reading from Rick Perlstein and Jeff Sharlet: Metaphors Journalists Live By (Part 1) (Part 2):
“Fascism is a dream politics. It’s a mythology. You can’t fact-check myth. You can’t arch an eyebrow and make it go away.”--Jeff Sharlet
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:24 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
Supplemental reading from Rick Perlstein and Jeff Sharlet: Metaphors Journalists Live By (Part 1) (Part 2):
“Fascism is a dream politics. It’s a mythology. You can’t fact-check myth. You can’t arch an eyebrow and make it go away.”--Jeff Sharlet
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:24 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
> For those that are TLDR of all this, when do we flip the switch of Rawlsian self-preservation and what does it look like?
It is Berlin, 1932, today. Look up how those that survived, survived.
Or it isn't 1932. We can't know until after it happens.
posted by NotAYakk at 1:37 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
It is Berlin, 1932, today. Look up how those that survived, survived.
Or it isn't 1932. We can't know until after it happens.
posted by NotAYakk at 1:37 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
The popular support is a lot weaker than its blustering adherents The New York Times keep trying to convince themselves everyone
FTFY
posted by slogger at 1:53 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
FTFY
posted by slogger at 1:53 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
are there pro-democracy militias training as we speak?
are there people getting survival/combat experience who are semi-organized to be ready when the Shit Goes Down?
This describes a lot of antifascists; there are a lot of ways to get involved in this kind of effort for people with all types of skills, whether it's front-line street-level antifascist activities or cooking meals or learning about first aid and healing to support community members, including those choosing front-line actions and those most at risk from physical violence. Guns are not for me for a few reasons including mental health issues and having a child in the house but I have been to a couple of leftist gun-related events just so that, in a scenario in which for some reason I have to handle a gun, which I literally pray never happens, at least I'll have some very basic training and experience. Build community, think about survival skills, and watch out for each other (this has the benefit of being good advice in climate disaster scenarios as well). At minimum I think it's a great idea to do a basic first aid class and stop the bleed training. Even outside of more extreme scenarios you never know when you're going to be called on to help someone who's been hurt.
posted by an octopus IRL at 1:55 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
are there people getting survival/combat experience who are semi-organized to be ready when the Shit Goes Down?
This describes a lot of antifascists; there are a lot of ways to get involved in this kind of effort for people with all types of skills, whether it's front-line street-level antifascist activities or cooking meals or learning about first aid and healing to support community members, including those choosing front-line actions and those most at risk from physical violence. Guns are not for me for a few reasons including mental health issues and having a child in the house but I have been to a couple of leftist gun-related events just so that, in a scenario in which for some reason I have to handle a gun, which I literally pray never happens, at least I'll have some very basic training and experience. Build community, think about survival skills, and watch out for each other (this has the benefit of being good advice in climate disaster scenarios as well). At minimum I think it's a great idea to do a basic first aid class and stop the bleed training. Even outside of more extreme scenarios you never know when you're going to be called on to help someone who's been hurt.
posted by an octopus IRL at 1:55 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
If there is actually a civil war, it's not going to be decided by civilian AR-15s, but by which side the military chooses.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:22 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:22 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
If there is actually a civil war, it's not going to be decided by civilian AR-15s, but by which side the military chooses.
Or by the military failing to choose. Or by different units in the military choosing different things.
posted by clawsoon at 2:25 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
Or by the military failing to choose. Or by different units in the military choosing different things.
posted by clawsoon at 2:25 PM on January 22 [17 favorites]
Like part of the problem with the Project 2025 thing is that Trump has already announced he will be using the US military to put down any domestic protests against his populist autocratic takeover if he is elected.
So, like it doesn't matter what any civilians might have planned, Trump has ALREADY SAID IN PUBLIC that he will mount the US military against the US populace if they protest his election and his possible, sorry entirely likely, announcements to become dictator for life.
I am not sure how people cannot have already know about these things, but I assume it is because I seek out being informed while the majority of the US voting populace does not.
posted by hippybear at 2:36 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
So, like it doesn't matter what any civilians might have planned, Trump has ALREADY SAID IN PUBLIC that he will mount the US military against the US populace if they protest his election and his possible, sorry entirely likely, announcements to become dictator for life.
I am not sure how people cannot have already know about these things, but I assume it is because I seek out being informed while the majority of the US voting populace does not.
posted by hippybear at 2:36 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
That scenario also supposed the US military choosing to obey Trump's commands to turn on US civilians. I feel like that could go either way.
posted by supermedusa at 3:09 PM on January 22 [5 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 3:09 PM on January 22 [5 favorites]
One thing that struck me about the crowds occupying Ottawa was their diversity. They were labelled by media as truckers, but most protesters were not. It seemed to me that they all had their own pet peeves, their own idiosyncratic concerns. What united them was that feeling described up thread - that finally there was a movement of change to flock towards. And flock they did, mostly on weekends. We still don't have clarity on whether it was a genuinely popular movement, a pre-existing popular sentiment moulded and directed by political operators, or an astroturf operation. The difference in the US is, as usual, that these dynamics are turbo-charged by the vastly greater resources available to Americans.
posted by SnowRottie at 3:10 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
posted by SnowRottie at 3:10 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
I do know the cops are on the Fascist side, the only question is how actively they'll support fascism.
I've always said there's no such thing as a stupid question.
well I really don't know are they all fascist?
or is that the mere visage of The thin Blue line. I remember being in school and when I would posit a thesis that teacher would like some supporting evidence. Not flowerless rhetoric.
sure, sure we can post all the heinous s*** that cops have done and some of the good things that they have done. we must remember that police are generally decentralized in our country. this is by design. but let's look to another example, one more chilling.
Ordnungspolizei.
I would urge anyone, if they have the compunction, to take up weapons training immediately.
that he will mount the US military against the US populace if they protest his election or anything else.
posted by clavdivs at 3:15 PM on January 22
I've always said there's no such thing as a stupid question.
well I really don't know are they all fascist?
or is that the mere visage of The thin Blue line. I remember being in school and when I would posit a thesis that teacher would like some supporting evidence. Not flowerless rhetoric.
sure, sure we can post all the heinous s*** that cops have done and some of the good things that they have done. we must remember that police are generally decentralized in our country. this is by design. but let's look to another example, one more chilling.
Ordnungspolizei.
I would urge anyone, if they have the compunction, to take up weapons training immediately.
that he will mount the US military against the US populace if they protest his election or anything else.
posted by clavdivs at 3:15 PM on January 22
and I remember all those m************ who would stand in front of Michigan State Capitol with long guns shouldered.
to digress, I believe strongly in citizens rights to keep and bear arms.
so went to Lansing during one of these spectacles with a neighbor who was going to cash in the lottery ticket had him drop me off in front of capital. when I walked up to a couple of these people that had their guns slung across their shoulder of course they gave me that look like oh my God you're going to challenge me, verbally. I just basically asked him why they carry their guns out and open while standing around reiterating thier writes and of course they reiterated that it was their right. so I counted why not just carry a big stick with a rope on it. of course the response was well it's not the same, this fire's bullets a stick doesn't, the great logic tanamount to the history of the crossbow.
well, what are you going to do with the gun, keep it on your shoulder now that you've expressed your right what next? are you going to use it are you going to pull it or you going to point it at someone, is that your right?
no.
then why the f*** are you carrying a stick in public.
posted by clavdivs at 3:30 PM on January 22 [27 favorites]
to digress, I believe strongly in citizens rights to keep and bear arms.
so went to Lansing during one of these spectacles with a neighbor who was going to cash in the lottery ticket had him drop me off in front of capital. when I walked up to a couple of these people that had their guns slung across their shoulder of course they gave me that look like oh my God you're going to challenge me, verbally. I just basically asked him why they carry their guns out and open while standing around reiterating thier writes and of course they reiterated that it was their right. so I counted why not just carry a big stick with a rope on it. of course the response was well it's not the same, this fire's bullets a stick doesn't, the great logic tanamount to the history of the crossbow.
well, what are you going to do with the gun, keep it on your shoulder now that you've expressed your right what next? are you going to use it are you going to pull it or you going to point it at someone, is that your right?
no.
then why the f*** are you carrying a stick in public.
posted by clavdivs at 3:30 PM on January 22 [27 favorites]
If you don't like guns but do like engineering and hobby spaces my personal bet is that the next civil conflict will see significant contributions from What-If-Hobart's-Funnies*-Were-Drones
*Funny in hindsight, if you are living in The Cool Zone then it will look like a parade of horror from the nightmare toy factory
posted by Slackermagee at 3:32 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
*Funny in hindsight, if you are living in The Cool Zone then it will look like a parade of horror from the nightmare toy factory
posted by Slackermagee at 3:32 PM on January 22 [7 favorites]
That scenario also supposed the US military choosing to obey Trump's commands to turn on US civilians. I feel like that could go either way.
As opposed the dozen or so actual examples that went only went one way 2016 through 2020?
I get that hyperventilating over the worst possible future scenario is basically MetaFilter's brand, but we don't have to deal with hypotheticals for many of things that constantly get hyperventilated about.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 3:37 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
As opposed the dozen or so actual examples that went only went one way 2016 through 2020?
I get that hyperventilating over the worst possible future scenario is basically MetaFilter's brand, but we don't have to deal with hypotheticals for many of things that constantly get hyperventilated about.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 3:37 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
It's like liberals will exhaust every action and avenue possible and take us to the absolute brink (with God knows how many lives taken or destroyed in the process) before they'll just acknowledge this point and get out of the way.
So, um, if I'm reading this comment correctly (and maybe I'm not) its we liberals who are entirely at fault for the coming fascism? So per this stated instruction, I and my fellow liberals are to apologize, give up on our philosophy, beliefs, and efforts for a more just society, and never be involved in the process again? Hmmmm. What if I said that exact thing but substituted leftist for liberals? How would that go over?
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:45 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
So, um, if I'm reading this comment correctly (and maybe I'm not) its we liberals who are entirely at fault for the coming fascism? So per this stated instruction, I and my fellow liberals are to apologize, give up on our philosophy, beliefs, and efforts for a more just society, and never be involved in the process again? Hmmmm. What if I said that exact thing but substituted leftist for liberals? How would that go over?
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:45 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
Am I misremembering a time when somebody has ordered the US military to turn itself on US civilians since 2016?
posted by supermedusa at 3:48 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 3:48 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
Military already picked “not trump” over and over again in 2017-2021. They will get a chance again to choose again if trump regains the presidency, but we spent plenty of time in non-constitutional order where the president did not have command anymore during trump. Especially after Jan. 6 through Biden being sworn in.
I don’t know what the rank and file of the military want, but I do know the brass seems to mostly want something that isn’t trump or trumpism.
posted by creiszhanson at 4:12 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I don’t know what the rank and file of the military want, but I do know the brass seems to mostly want something that isn’t trump or trumpism.
posted by creiszhanson at 4:12 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
its we liberals who are entirely at fault for the coming fascism?
No. We are all culpable for the coming fascism. Most culpable are of course the fascists themselves. But after that, our level of culpability for fascism is proportional to the amount of power each of us (individually or collectively) possesses. Since leftists basically control nothing in the US, I’m gonna argue that leftists have proportionally much less (though not zero!) culpability for the rise of fascism.
So per this stated instruction, I and my fellow liberals are to apologize, give up on our philosophy, beliefs, and efforts for a more just society, and never be involved in the process again?
An acknowledgment of the ways in which the Democratic Party and liberals have fairly consistently (thought not always!) worked against the interests of the average (the true average, not just those who vote or who already have a voice) would be a start, let alone any sort of apology . Though that would go a very long way too, of course.
What if I said that exact thing but substituted leftist for liberals? How would that go over?
This is said consistently to leftists by liberals every single election cycle and it goes over very poorly precisely because it refuses to recognize the power/culpability differential noted in my first point.
posted by flamk at 4:13 PM on January 22 [23 favorites]
No. We are all culpable for the coming fascism. Most culpable are of course the fascists themselves. But after that, our level of culpability for fascism is proportional to the amount of power each of us (individually or collectively) possesses. Since leftists basically control nothing in the US, I’m gonna argue that leftists have proportionally much less (though not zero!) culpability for the rise of fascism.
So per this stated instruction, I and my fellow liberals are to apologize, give up on our philosophy, beliefs, and efforts for a more just society, and never be involved in the process again?
An acknowledgment of the ways in which the Democratic Party and liberals have fairly consistently (thought not always!) worked against the interests of the average (the true average, not just those who vote or who already have a voice) would be a start, let alone any sort of apology . Though that would go a very long way too, of course.
What if I said that exact thing but substituted leftist for liberals? How would that go over?
This is said consistently to leftists by liberals every single election cycle and it goes over very poorly precisely because it refuses to recognize the power/culpability differential noted in my first point.
posted by flamk at 4:13 PM on January 22 [23 favorites]
tRuSt ThE pRoCeSs
posted by chronkite at 4:15 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 4:15 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
I'm grateful to MAGA for showing me that the Supreme Court's reasoning was incomplete: Money is speech, it's true; but more importantly, the credible threat of violence is as effective as money when it comes to influencing our elected officials.
posted by zaixfeep at 4:15 PM on January 22 [4 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 4:15 PM on January 22 [4 favorites]
In fights against fascist goons and cops (but I repeat myself), what antifa does works quite well.
Against a modern military, you need a years long campaign of insurgency.
Let's all hope and pray it doesn't come to that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:21 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
Against a modern military, you need a years long campaign of insurgency.
Let's all hope and pray it doesn't come to that.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:21 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
When the MAGA Nazis come for us we’ll try to organize but some moderator will delete any comments that might paint the nazis in a bad light, or suggest ways to fight back.
posted by chronkite at 4:27 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 4:27 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
I'm neck deep in Trump Country. I've been bouncing around small town craziness for a few months now. These people fully believe (About 80% of them, from what I can tell) that the only way to be a True American is to protect the country from abortion, queers, minorities, immigrants, unions, godlessness, terrorists, environmental protection agencies, and the ATF.
It's really all true - the cluster of buildings surrounding a lonely intersection, all draped with Trump flags and sometimes pictures. The current campsite I'm at is particularly pro trump, but there's a dozen flags I can see from the back corner. Most of these people have trump memorabilia and knickknacks. I'm not sure if I would be brave enough to stay anywhere near here if I wasn't white and straight male passing.
One third of the country is liberal, one third of the country is neutral, and one third of the country is absolutely fuckin insane. I don't think it's safe to dismiss the 74 million people who voted for Trump the second time. They support whatever ludicrous revenge he's babbling about! It's real support, in the same way people attach to sports teams or churches or actors. Reality doesn't matter, it's all rigged against them.
This is America. It's been this broken the entire time and the pendulum has finally swung from blatant racism and slavery to Jim Crow and McCarthy to maybe don't be bigoted please, and this is a direct assault on what propaganda tells conservatives is destroying the country. Their country. How we feel when they ban abortion and attack the gays? Trumpism feels this every single day and are going to vote for their orange savior.
posted by Jacen at 4:28 PM on January 22 [30 favorites]
It's really all true - the cluster of buildings surrounding a lonely intersection, all draped with Trump flags and sometimes pictures. The current campsite I'm at is particularly pro trump, but there's a dozen flags I can see from the back corner. Most of these people have trump memorabilia and knickknacks. I'm not sure if I would be brave enough to stay anywhere near here if I wasn't white and straight male passing.
One third of the country is liberal, one third of the country is neutral, and one third of the country is absolutely fuckin insane. I don't think it's safe to dismiss the 74 million people who voted for Trump the second time. They support whatever ludicrous revenge he's babbling about! It's real support, in the same way people attach to sports teams or churches or actors. Reality doesn't matter, it's all rigged against them.
This is America. It's been this broken the entire time and the pendulum has finally swung from blatant racism and slavery to Jim Crow and McCarthy to maybe don't be bigoted please, and this is a direct assault on what propaganda tells conservatives is destroying the country. Their country. How we feel when they ban abortion and attack the gays? Trumpism feels this every single day and are going to vote for their orange savior.
posted by Jacen at 4:28 PM on January 22 [30 favorites]
When the MAGA Nazis come for us we’ll try to organize but some moderator will delete any comments that might paint the nazis in a bad light, or suggest ways to fight back.
Probably best not to do any serious organizing online, anyway.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:32 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
Probably best not to do any serious organizing online, anyway.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 4:32 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
Probably best not to do any serious organizing online, anyway.
Way ahead of you, bro.
posted by chronkite at 4:36 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
Way ahead of you, bro.
posted by chronkite at 4:36 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
are there people getting survival/combat experience who are semi-organized to be ready when the Shit Goes Down?
Allow me to introduce you to the John Brown Gun Club and a shit ton of lefty Iraq war veterans.
posted by corb at 4:39 PM on January 22 [15 favorites]
Allow me to introduce you to the John Brown Gun Club and a shit ton of lefty Iraq war veterans.
posted by corb at 4:39 PM on January 22 [15 favorites]
Campaign on some real trustbusting, taxing the rich, redistributing wealth, and getting working people better conditions and money.
One of the greatest tricks capitalism ever pulled was to require that political campaigns depend on people with large amounts of money. It's really hard to campaign for things your funders don't like.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:42 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
One of the greatest tricks capitalism ever pulled was to require that political campaigns depend on people with large amounts of money. It's really hard to campaign for things your funders don't like.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:42 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
> So per this stated instruction, I and my fellow liberals are to apologize, give up on our philosophy, beliefs, and efforts for a more just society, and never be involved in the process again
I don't think liberals are serious about those ideas. Lip service, not action.
https://genius.com/Phil-ochs-love-me-im-a-liberal-lyrics
posted by constraint at 4:42 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I don't think liberals are serious about those ideas. Lip service, not action.
https://genius.com/Phil-ochs-love-me-im-a-liberal-lyrics
posted by constraint at 4:42 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
I suggest that there is a simple way for the Democrats to both gain the support of many people and possibly sap the will from the Trumpers is to become the Party that GENUINELY appeals to the working class as opposed to Trump's faux populism that only repackages racism and sells it as a solution to economic issues.
There is almost nothing in political science or history that says this is true. American politics is always about class AND race, with race often overshadowing class. You have to confront the racism & not just offer economic solutions. In addition, you have to deal with the reality that some of the working class actually just prefers to do racism rather than pursue left-populism on economics. You can steer some of the working class away from fascism with a good old fashioned, "Black and white, unite and fight!" appeal, but you're not going to get everybody.
posted by jonp72 at 4:45 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
There is almost nothing in political science or history that says this is true. American politics is always about class AND race, with race often overshadowing class. You have to confront the racism & not just offer economic solutions. In addition, you have to deal with the reality that some of the working class actually just prefers to do racism rather than pursue left-populism on economics. You can steer some of the working class away from fascism with a good old fashioned, "Black and white, unite and fight!" appeal, but you're not going to get everybody.
posted by jonp72 at 4:45 PM on January 22 [16 favorites]
It used to be that "we're gonna march on Washington with guns and ropes" was the province of white supremacist manifestos and occasional weirdos handing out pamphlets outside the post office, of course.
It still is. The nooses used on January 6th are direct callback to the Day of the Rope invoked in the Turner Diaries, the same book that inspired the Oklahoma City bombing. The only problem is January 6th took white supremacist tactics & imagery & mainstreamed it. Yet the media & the public at large are just dumping it down the memory hole as if it never happened.
posted by jonp72 at 4:51 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
It still is. The nooses used on January 6th are direct callback to the Day of the Rope invoked in the Turner Diaries, the same book that inspired the Oklahoma City bombing. The only problem is January 6th took white supremacist tactics & imagery & mainstreamed it. Yet the media & the public at large are just dumping it down the memory hole as if it never happened.
posted by jonp72 at 4:51 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
If you don't like guns, go learn how to fly drones.
Antifa drones following Proud Boys around town and feeding a tracking page would be genuinely useful tech, aggressively anti-fascist, and cyberpunk as hell.
posted by ryanrs at 5:00 PM on January 22 [35 favorites]
Antifa drones following Proud Boys around town and feeding a tracking page would be genuinely useful tech, aggressively anti-fascist, and cyberpunk as hell.
posted by ryanrs at 5:00 PM on January 22 [35 favorites]
You have to confront the racism & not just offer economic solutions.
I agree - but I think this points to a worldview that sees these two as fundamentally different or opposed or something. We cannot have economic solutions without racial reconciliation or progress or whatever and we cannot have racial progress without substantive economic solutions. They are one and the same.
Edited to add that I do think certain parts of the Democratic Party way under emphasize class/economics which leads not to the loss of working class whites (that's the common story), but to the loss of white and non-white non-voters who feel the system doesn't work for them and never will.
posted by flamk at 5:00 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
I agree - but I think this points to a worldview that sees these two as fundamentally different or opposed or something. We cannot have economic solutions without racial reconciliation or progress or whatever and we cannot have racial progress without substantive economic solutions. They are one and the same.
Edited to add that I do think certain parts of the Democratic Party way under emphasize class/economics which leads not to the loss of working class whites (that's the common story), but to the loss of white and non-white non-voters who feel the system doesn't work for them and never will.
posted by flamk at 5:00 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
From '70s SNL,The Hominids -- Steve Martin plays history's first progressive...
posted by zaixfeep at 5:19 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by zaixfeep at 5:19 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
I'm not all the way through the video but the part about this trumpist/fascist thing being a collective act of meaning making -- not a bunch of people just receiving the message but actually becoming highly active and engaged in creating the message itself -- makes me kind of go wow, I haven't thought about it that way before. It makes the phenomenon so much scarier to me -- but maybe there are opportunities to disrupt that meaning-making feedback loop as it's happening?
I'm glad that he also seems to be taking the press to task for not treating this like something inherently violent and abnormal. I will say this until the cows come home -- members of the press are going to be the first in the crosshairs of the project 2025 takeover. Are they not sounding the alarm and normalizing it because they're afraid of retribution? Or are they really just following the news cycle bottom line and hopelessly naive?
This is not just a game and the fact that every major outlet is just talking about the latest polls like nothing more than sports updates strikes me as almost as insane as the fact that a person who explicitly tried to overthrow the US government -- with the aid of Russia and with fully stated intention of trying to do so again -- is still somehow allowed to run for president again
posted by treepour at 5:29 PM on January 22 [23 favorites]
I'm glad that he also seems to be taking the press to task for not treating this like something inherently violent and abnormal. I will say this until the cows come home -- members of the press are going to be the first in the crosshairs of the project 2025 takeover. Are they not sounding the alarm and normalizing it because they're afraid of retribution? Or are they really just following the news cycle bottom line and hopelessly naive?
This is not just a game and the fact that every major outlet is just talking about the latest polls like nothing more than sports updates strikes me as almost as insane as the fact that a person who explicitly tried to overthrow the US government -- with the aid of Russia and with fully stated intention of trying to do so again -- is still somehow allowed to run for president again
posted by treepour at 5:29 PM on January 22 [23 favorites]
Flamk/Constraint - I’m not going to argue this back and forth any more. I don’t doubt your sincerity in the causes you support, but my liberalism consists of supporting, advocating, donating, and volunteering for:
Transgender rights
Abortion and reproductive rights
Same sex marriage and civil rights
Gun control
Environmental protection, climate change control and clean energy efforts
Animal rights
End to qualified immunity, massive reduction in police department budgets (trnafer the money to public schools)
Drastic reduction in the military industrial complex funding
One person one vote, inviolable (criminal penalties for those fuckwits interfering with that right)
Medicare for all
Abolition of all medical debt
Abolition of college debt for all moderate and lower income people
Massive expansion of child tax credit
Free school meals for all children
Vast increases in support for the unhoused
Real, large funds to support the transition of foster children into the adult world
Return of Eisenhower era tax rates on the highest income earners
Capital gains taxes = ordinary income taxes
Outlawing hedge funds or taxing them out of existence
SSN tax cap eliminated
A giant housing construction boom
A civilian conservation core
Amnesty for all undocumented persons and allowing vast amounts of immigrants into the country, especially those from Central America whom we’ve fucked over so many times and ways
Reversal of the weakening of child labor protections
Penalizing the hell out of Offshoring/Hiding assets in tax ‘havens’
And many more….
I think I’ll keep doing this. I value those further to the left than I am (and I’m pretty fucking far on that spectrum) to push as hard as they can for their positions cause I think that push and pull makes us a stronger, but more empathetic society.
I'm truly sorry you feel that us liberals try to shut you down. But when you tell people like me I’m the problem, I’m the cause of untold misery and deaths, I’m the reason that orange piece of shit and his violent sociopathic cult adherents are coming back, well, I don’t know how to say this otherwise, but you are so very wrong.
posted by WatTylerJr at 5:38 PM on January 22 [21 favorites]
Transgender rights
Abortion and reproductive rights
Same sex marriage and civil rights
Gun control
Environmental protection, climate change control and clean energy efforts
Animal rights
End to qualified immunity, massive reduction in police department budgets (trnafer the money to public schools)
Drastic reduction in the military industrial complex funding
One person one vote, inviolable (criminal penalties for those fuckwits interfering with that right)
Medicare for all
Abolition of all medical debt
Abolition of college debt for all moderate and lower income people
Massive expansion of child tax credit
Free school meals for all children
Vast increases in support for the unhoused
Real, large funds to support the transition of foster children into the adult world
Return of Eisenhower era tax rates on the highest income earners
Capital gains taxes = ordinary income taxes
Outlawing hedge funds or taxing them out of existence
SSN tax cap eliminated
A giant housing construction boom
A civilian conservation core
Amnesty for all undocumented persons and allowing vast amounts of immigrants into the country, especially those from Central America whom we’ve fucked over so many times and ways
Reversal of the weakening of child labor protections
Penalizing the hell out of Offshoring/Hiding assets in tax ‘havens’
And many more….
I think I’ll keep doing this. I value those further to the left than I am (and I’m pretty fucking far on that spectrum) to push as hard as they can for their positions cause I think that push and pull makes us a stronger, but more empathetic society.
I'm truly sorry you feel that us liberals try to shut you down. But when you tell people like me I’m the problem, I’m the cause of untold misery and deaths, I’m the reason that orange piece of shit and his violent sociopathic cult adherents are coming back, well, I don’t know how to say this otherwise, but you are so very wrong.
posted by WatTylerJr at 5:38 PM on January 22 [21 favorites]
if anyone else, like me, gains tiny fleeting comfort through the temporary distraction of collecting bulk volumes of information one hopes to never need, there are torrents of digital collections of US military manuals
posted by glonous keming at 5:45 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
1 - (518 files, mixed PDF & zip, 2.55GB)and a crapton more available from archive.org. some are obviously of limited use, such as FM 1-112 Attack Helicopter Operations or SS0607 Principles of Television Studio Timing Systems, but there's a lot of other interesting texts scattered in there as well.
2 - (222 files, all PDF, 2.0GB)
3 - (592 of 612 files {99.9% complete}, all PDF, 3.30GB of 3.65GB)
posted by glonous keming at 5:45 PM on January 22 [8 favorites]
So is the difference between a liberal and a leftist that the liberal believes all of those things can be accomplished within the current system and the leftist doesn't? Or is it something else?
posted by clawsoon at 5:49 PM on January 22
posted by clawsoon at 5:49 PM on January 22
and a shit ton of lefty Iraq war veterans.
ZAP. there that goes why cause it's true. At least 2.5 million ncluding Vietnam to present. roughly two and a half lately armed mobile armies.
I asked my friend, in the event of massive civil unrest, etc. will the states divide. for example Michigan has roughly 10 million people and 11 million of them are armed. A Michigan joke. essentially what's the big eagle going to do with those arrows in his claw for if a million soldiers augmented with 5 million citizens converge on the capital of the United States.... What, is the military going to strafe the highway with A10 Thunderbolts. What do you think is going to happen.
America is cash broke already, people constantly fighting each other.
imagine if they were doing it for real.
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
ZAP. there that goes why cause it's true. At least 2.5 million ncluding Vietnam to present. roughly two and a half lately armed mobile armies.
I asked my friend, in the event of massive civil unrest, etc. will the states divide. for example Michigan has roughly 10 million people and 11 million of them are armed. A Michigan joke. essentially what's the big eagle going to do with those arrows in his claw for if a million soldiers augmented with 5 million citizens converge on the capital of the United States.... What, is the military going to strafe the highway with A10 Thunderbolts. What do you think is going to happen.
America is cash broke already, people constantly fighting each other.
imagine if they were doing it for real.
posted by clavdivs at 5:54 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
TM 31-210.
posted by clavdivs at 6:00 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 6:00 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
If you're really against war you don't work for Putin.
If you're really against war you don't let Putin's opportunistic embrace-extend-extinguish attacks on your allies get as far as extend.
posted by flabdablet at 6:03 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
If you're really against war you don't let Putin's opportunistic embrace-extend-extinguish attacks on your allies get as far as extend.
posted by flabdablet at 6:03 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
well how do you do that extension without some sort of gun play whether it's the first state actor or second state actor
posted by clavdivs at 6:10 PM on January 22
posted by clavdivs at 6:10 PM on January 22
You do know the Government has drones, right?
posted by flabdablet at 6:25 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 6:25 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
Sharlet and the New York Times (previously but I didn't see a lot of Sharlet discussion)
Sharlet then directed a question to him—“with love and affection for The New York Times and the dilemma that you’re in: What is the argument against calling that ‘fascism’?”posted by away for regrooving at 6:33 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
At which his interlocutor doubled down on the smug.
“For the same reason we don’t call Trump ‘racist.’ It’s more powerful to say what something is than to offer a label on it that is going to be debated, you know, and distract from the reporting that goes into it.”
It’s more powerful to say what something is than to offer a label on it that is going to be debated, you know
and besides, I get paid per word, and if I just write "fascist" instead of a paragraph every time, it adds up, y'know?
posted by flabdablet at 6:52 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
and besides, I get paid per word, and if I just write "fascist" instead of a paragraph every time, it adds up, y'know?
posted by flabdablet at 6:52 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
flabdablet: “You do know the Government has drones, right? ”They had drones in Afghanistan too.
posted by ob1quixote at 7:30 PM on January 22 [6 favorites]
People gotta eat, and if Hedges can live with himself and take the check, that's his soul to look after. [...] I am just over and done with worrying if things are Russian Propaganda.
RT is russian propaganda, there's nothing to worry about. Someone who takes a paycheck from the ministry of propaganda is a propagandist.
Gotta eat? I'd rather eat dirt do this kind of work for a genocidal dictator.
It's bizarre to me, to defend someone's principles but then say, well the man needs to eat (millions of dollars).
posted by UN at 10:33 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
RT is russian propaganda, there's nothing to worry about. Someone who takes a paycheck from the ministry of propaganda is a propagandist.
Gotta eat? I'd rather eat dirt do this kind of work for a genocidal dictator.
It's bizarre to me, to defend someone's principles but then say, well the man needs to eat (millions of dollars).
posted by UN at 10:33 PM on January 22 [13 favorites]
Yeah, what the UN said.
posted by chronkite at 10:56 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
posted by chronkite at 10:56 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
RT is Russian propaganda to pretty much exactly the same extent that the NYT and WaPo are US propaganda. I've seen no difference in kind and precious little in degree. All of them print a mixture of genuine reportage and blatantly outrageous nonsense in about the same proportion as each other. And I've yet to see any view Chris Hedges has ever put while writing for any of these outlets that hasn't been put with at least as much vigour by contributors to this very site.
To the extent that I think he's tainted by the company he chooses to keep, I'm way more disappointed by his ongoing association with Substack than his now-terminated employment at any of the major media companies he's worked for.
To dismiss Hedges out of hand on the basis of one of those companies having been RT strikes me as a win for the established order, and my best advice to anybody who has done this is to reconsider.
posted by flabdablet at 11:21 PM on January 22 [4 favorites]
To the extent that I think he's tainted by the company he chooses to keep, I'm way more disappointed by his ongoing association with Substack than his now-terminated employment at any of the major media companies he's worked for.
To dismiss Hedges out of hand on the basis of one of those companies having been RT strikes me as a win for the established order, and my best advice to anybody who has done this is to reconsider.
posted by flabdablet at 11:21 PM on January 22 [4 favorites]
RT is Russian propaganda to pretty much exactly the same extent that the NYT and WaPo are US propaganda.
That’s not true at all.
NYT, its readers and the establishment it represents and defends has aged poorly. WaPo is a local rag whose locality happens to be inside the beltway, so US politics informs every angle.
NYT has a death grip on the (educationally) liberal presumption that journalism must tell two sides to every story. WaPo is hooked on horse races and access journalism.
Those are major problems.
The Kremlin controls RT. It is a major part of Putin’s media arm.
Maybe it’s the “pretty much” that’s confusing me.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:40 AM on January 23 [23 favorites]
That’s not true at all.
NYT, its readers and the establishment it represents and defends has aged poorly. WaPo is a local rag whose locality happens to be inside the beltway, so US politics informs every angle.
NYT has a death grip on the (educationally) liberal presumption that journalism must tell two sides to every story. WaPo is hooked on horse races and access journalism.
Those are major problems.
The Kremlin controls RT. It is a major part of Putin’s media arm.
Maybe it’s the “pretty much” that’s confusing me.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:40 AM on January 23 [23 favorites]
The Kremlin controls RT. It is a major part of Putin’s media arm.
And yet RT made no attempt to suppress Hedges on Ukraine, in stark contrast to the way NYT handled him on Iraq.
Kremlin, huge corporations; tomayto, tomahto.
posted by flabdablet at 12:52 AM on January 23 [6 favorites]
And yet RT made no attempt to suppress Hedges on Ukraine, in stark contrast to the way NYT handled him on Iraq.
Kremlin, huge corporations; tomayto, tomahto.
posted by flabdablet at 12:52 AM on January 23 [6 favorites]
over and done with worrying if things are Russian Propaganda.
When you watch the excellent 2017 PBS documentary "Putin's Way" you'll see that the success of his conquest depends mightily on that particular type of mental fatigue.
posted by CynicalKnight at 12:54 AM on January 23 [13 favorites]
When you watch the excellent 2017 PBS documentary "Putin's Way" you'll see that the success of his conquest depends mightily on that particular type of mental fatigue.
posted by CynicalKnight at 12:54 AM on January 23 [13 favorites]
Circling back to my first comment in this discussion: George Conway posted a succinct description of MAGAs which dovetails nicely with my point about self-medication. Here's his tweet:
https://nitter.net/gtconway3d/status/1749627034278515198
"This is perhaps the most illuminating thing I’ve ever read about Trump𝙞𝙨𝙢, as opposed to Trump himself.
'This New Hampshire GOP voter is angry. But he doesn’t really know 𝙬𝙝𝙖𝙩 he’s angry about. He 𝙬𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙨 to be angry. He 𝙙𝙤𝙚𝙨 know 𝙬𝙝𝙤𝙢 he is angry at—the people who he thinks run the country and who he thinks think themselves better than he. He wants to harm them, even if it harms himself, and even if it harms the country—indeed, 𝙚𝙨𝙥𝙚𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 if it harms the country, because he thinks harming the country is the best way to harm the people who anger him.'
(I've repositioned/added quotation marks for clarity)
Conway then links to the Politico article ‘Our System Needs to Be Broken, and [Trump] Is the Man to Do It’
Yup, it's always all about rewengie with MAGAs.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:59 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
https://nitter.net/gtconway3d/status/1749627034278515198
"This is perhaps the most illuminating thing I’ve ever read about Trump𝙞𝙨𝙢, as opposed to Trump himself.
'This New Hampshire GOP voter is angry. But he doesn’t really know 𝙬𝙝𝙖𝙩 he’s angry about. He 𝙬𝙖𝙣𝙩𝙨 to be angry. He 𝙙𝙤𝙚𝙨 know 𝙬𝙝𝙤𝙢 he is angry at—the people who he thinks run the country and who he thinks think themselves better than he. He wants to harm them, even if it harms himself, and even if it harms the country—indeed, 𝙚𝙨𝙥𝙚𝙘𝙞𝙖𝙡𝙡𝙮 if it harms the country, because he thinks harming the country is the best way to harm the people who anger him.'
(I've repositioned/added quotation marks for clarity)
Conway then links to the Politico article ‘Our System Needs to Be Broken, and [Trump] Is the Man to Do It’
Yup, it's always all about rewengie with MAGAs.
posted by zaixfeep at 12:59 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
To dismiss Hedges out of hand on the basis of one of those companies having been RT strikes me as a win for the established order,
If you're critical of the established order, why do you defend the propaganda arm of a dictator who's been in power for decades? Doesn't get more "established order" than that.
posted by UN at 1:03 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
If you're critical of the established order, why do you defend the propaganda arm of a dictator who's been in power for decades? Doesn't get more "established order" than that.
posted by UN at 1:03 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
Kremlin, huge corporations; tomayto, tomahto.
I knew it just had to be that pesky “pretty much.”
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 1:09 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
I knew it just had to be that pesky “pretty much.”
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 1:09 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
I don't see how defending the work of a specific investigative journalist on the basis of that work's own considerable merit amounts to defending the organizations he's worked for, unless it's held to be the case that every investigative journalist who has ever been employed by one of these propaganda rags to provide plausible cover for what it's actually for is as much responsible for that propaganda as their managing editors and "opinion" columnists.
posted by flabdablet at 1:51 AM on January 23 [6 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 1:51 AM on January 23 [6 favorites]
I see no issue dismissing the work of anyone who willingly works for a murdering fascist dictator. His choice. It's not like he was working in the coal mines to feed his family.
There are principled and ethical journalists. You don't have to be pro Putin to be anti other fascists. It's a false choice you're presenting.
posted by UN at 2:26 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
There are principled and ethical journalists. You don't have to be pro Putin to be anti other fascists. It's a false choice you're presenting.
posted by UN at 2:26 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
Okay, whatever.
Anybody less committed to the comfort of a clearly delineated Good Guys vs Bad Guys dichotomy than that, who is interested in knowing what the journalist at issue has to say about RT, Russia, Ukraine and war before deciding whether or not he belongs beyond the pale as a Putin booster, can do so at democracynow.org.
posted by flabdablet at 2:53 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Anybody less committed to the comfort of a clearly delineated Good Guys vs Bad Guys dichotomy than that, who is interested in knowing what the journalist at issue has to say about RT, Russia, Ukraine and war before deciding whether or not he belongs beyond the pale as a Putin booster, can do so at democracynow.org.
posted by flabdablet at 2:53 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Okay, whatever.
That's the spirit!
Since I too see myself as a complex thinker, I followed your link and found the answer to be "not much at all." Was that supposed to happen?
Is this one of those situations where wiser, more experienced heads just don't engage, or was that actually what passes for a gotcha these days?
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:37 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
That's the spirit!
Since I too see myself as a complex thinker, I followed your link and found the answer to be "not much at all." Was that supposed to happen?
Is this one of those situations where wiser, more experienced heads just don't engage, or was that actually what passes for a gotcha these days?
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 3:37 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
I would comment on this issue but, on reflection, I realize that neither side of this "slow" civil war gives the first infinitesimal fraction of a fuck about me or my ideas or what I'm going through. A pox on both your houses, Republicant and Democratic. You've colluded to put me in the place where I am now: homeless broken and slowly dying. You broke my body with sanctioned violence and you broke my mind with lies and excuses for your crimes.
America isn't dead nor dying. The idea of America we were taught in civics class was a lie. Rights are a lie. Property is a lie. America is an ongoing theft. American democracy is a lie. Representation is not for the likes of me- dollars win elections and votes are suppressed or simply not counted.
Everywhere I go I'm subject to harassment. Agents of the state can and do mess with me at will, over anything or nothing, with no repercussion to them even when they violate the "law". I've been repeatedly held at gunpoint for just existing on the street, sitting in a parked car, smoking on my own porch.
Neither of Trump nor Biden is going to help my situation at all. No one running for any position that will appear on my ballot is going to help my situation. I always vote, because voting is almost zero-effort in my district, but I recognize the almost-complete pointlessness of it. I don't criticize folk in other districts who don't vote for similar reasons. Why spend hours in the rain for nothing but harassment by fascist "poll observers" and an infinitesimal boost to a candidate who will most likely lose anyway, and probably turn on you once they win?
I live where I live because the political climate is as congenial as I could find anywhere in this nation I can't afford to leave. I'm too poor to travel to another country and too broken to be allowed to stay if I did. I have it much much easier than millions of people in similar situations to mine.
Folks like me cannot participate in America. We are shoved out of public spaces and denied spaces of our own. This is not metaphor. We have a lot to offer if we were allowed to do the things of which we are capable, but America cannot tolerate this for structural reasons. America needs an underclass to performatively punish so that other citizens will stay in line. You don't want to end up like us.
But you will anyway. MAGA will see to it.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 3:43 AM on January 23 [25 favorites]
America isn't dead nor dying. The idea of America we were taught in civics class was a lie. Rights are a lie. Property is a lie. America is an ongoing theft. American democracy is a lie. Representation is not for the likes of me- dollars win elections and votes are suppressed or simply not counted.
Everywhere I go I'm subject to harassment. Agents of the state can and do mess with me at will, over anything or nothing, with no repercussion to them even when they violate the "law". I've been repeatedly held at gunpoint for just existing on the street, sitting in a parked car, smoking on my own porch.
Neither of Trump nor Biden is going to help my situation at all. No one running for any position that will appear on my ballot is going to help my situation. I always vote, because voting is almost zero-effort in my district, but I recognize the almost-complete pointlessness of it. I don't criticize folk in other districts who don't vote for similar reasons. Why spend hours in the rain for nothing but harassment by fascist "poll observers" and an infinitesimal boost to a candidate who will most likely lose anyway, and probably turn on you once they win?
I live where I live because the political climate is as congenial as I could find anywhere in this nation I can't afford to leave. I'm too poor to travel to another country and too broken to be allowed to stay if I did. I have it much much easier than millions of people in similar situations to mine.
Folks like me cannot participate in America. We are shoved out of public spaces and denied spaces of our own. This is not metaphor. We have a lot to offer if we were allowed to do the things of which we are capable, but America cannot tolerate this for structural reasons. America needs an underclass to performatively punish so that other citizens will stay in line. You don't want to end up like us.
But you will anyway. MAGA will see to it.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 3:43 AM on January 23 [25 favorites]
Pity the poor Liberal. As soon as you point out that their failure to be the alternative we need is a part of the problem we face, they imagine themselves as the true victims.
Still, what we need right now is long lists of all the good things they've stood for and not achieved. Proof of the aspiration of worthiness is going to solve America's problems much better than... erm... having policies that solve America's problems. Now, remind me again why so few people are uninspired by the party or person of Biden or the self-regard of the noble alternative he sort of wants to be occasionally, but not if, you know, it's actually difficult or necessary? Oh yeah! Lefties did it! That's also why. And don't blame us for Trump. Look! A squirrel!
Thanks, progressives.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 4:40 AM on January 23 [8 favorites]
Still, what we need right now is long lists of all the good things they've stood for and not achieved. Proof of the aspiration of worthiness is going to solve America's problems much better than... erm... having policies that solve America's problems. Now, remind me again why so few people are uninspired by the party or person of Biden or the self-regard of the noble alternative he sort of wants to be occasionally, but not if, you know, it's actually difficult or necessary? Oh yeah! Lefties did it! That's also why. And don't blame us for Trump. Look! A squirrel!
Thanks, progressives.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 4:40 AM on January 23 [8 favorites]
I'm bring unfair, and I thought of deleting that. The problem is that it isn't necessarily untrue.
Anyway. Sharlet is incredible. And much as I'd like it to be otherwise, Hedges can't be untainted by association with RT. Some rivers are too polluted not to be poisonous, and it's not like there aren't others to ride.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 4:49 AM on January 23 [5 favorites]
Anyway. Sharlet is incredible. And much as I'd like it to be otherwise, Hedges can't be untainted by association with RT. Some rivers are too polluted not to be poisonous, and it's not like there aren't others to ride.
posted by onebuttonmonkey at 4:49 AM on January 23 [5 favorites]
Brian B.
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:51 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
The working class doesn't overwhelmingly see itself as a class in America. They invest to own homes, farms, bars and small businesses, maybe stock too.If you own capital, you are definitionally NOT "working class".
posted by adrienneleigh at 4:51 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
Just a few minutes ago during their top of the hour rundown of headlines, WBUR said something on the order of "Trump falsely claimed that other countries are sending mentally ill people to the United States".
They still can't be bothered to say he lies. The media has learned nothing.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:10 AM on January 23 [10 favorites]
They still can't be bothered to say he lies. The media has learned nothing.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:10 AM on January 23 [10 favorites]
New Hampshire has a tradition of holding a midnight vote at the very small town of Dixville Notch. I don't know why I stayed up last night to watch the results (after 1 a.m. my time), but it proved worth it. Six voters. Trump lost to Haley, 0 to 6.
I may be the only one believing that Trump will not get the Republican nomination. Trump has a lot of weaknesses that have basically gone unexploited. His supporters might not care about or else actively be in favor of his strongman attitudes, but, for the most part, opponents have not been exploiting his mental status. I've seen some of this recently being mentioned. The man goes on senile rambles that would make anyone question his brain function. The media only chooses focal points of this: calling Pelosi Haley or calling Obama president. There are other, much more extensive, incomprehensible rants.
So, while some of the media is (rightly) mentioning his Hitleresque pronouncements, they should be running his near looney-tune drooling portions of his speeches. They make Biden look like a whiz kid.
He has been getting worse and I can only imagine that sometime a critical mass will form. I think the problem will become so obvious that the GOP convention will pick someone outside the primary-winning process. (Note: I could be wrong.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:26 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
I may be the only one believing that Trump will not get the Republican nomination. Trump has a lot of weaknesses that have basically gone unexploited. His supporters might not care about or else actively be in favor of his strongman attitudes, but, for the most part, opponents have not been exploiting his mental status. I've seen some of this recently being mentioned. The man goes on senile rambles that would make anyone question his brain function. The media only chooses focal points of this: calling Pelosi Haley or calling Obama president. There are other, much more extensive, incomprehensible rants.
So, while some of the media is (rightly) mentioning his Hitleresque pronouncements, they should be running his near looney-tune drooling portions of his speeches. They make Biden look like a whiz kid.
He has been getting worse and I can only imagine that sometime a critical mass will form. I think the problem will become so obvious that the GOP convention will pick someone outside the primary-winning process. (Note: I could be wrong.)
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:26 AM on January 23 [4 favorites]
My could-be-wrong theory is that Haley wins New Hampshire.
Most of the polling has been of Republican primary voters, but NH has more independents, and more Democrats, than it does Republicans, and, as Haley has observed, Trump is the most hated figure in American politics. I'm a Democrat in a state with open primaries, and I have repeatedly crossed the aisle to vote against the guy.
If this happens, Trump's people will say it doesn't count, rigged election, RINOs, etc. To a lot of moderates and fence-sitters, this will seem like being sore losers. To the pundit class, this will be a reminder that the Republican candidate still needs to win a general election. And, for Trump supporters, it might make a Trump victory seem less like inevitable God-given destiny and more like something their guy actually has to fight for.
I'm probably wrong--my attempts at predicting the future usually are--but that's one way it could go.
posted by box at 6:59 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Most of the polling has been of Republican primary voters, but NH has more independents, and more Democrats, than it does Republicans, and, as Haley has observed, Trump is the most hated figure in American politics. I'm a Democrat in a state with open primaries, and I have repeatedly crossed the aisle to vote against the guy.
If this happens, Trump's people will say it doesn't count, rigged election, RINOs, etc. To a lot of moderates and fence-sitters, this will seem like being sore losers. To the pundit class, this will be a reminder that the Republican candidate still needs to win a general election. And, for Trump supporters, it might make a Trump victory seem less like inevitable God-given destiny and more like something their guy actually has to fight for.
I'm probably wrong--my attempts at predicting the future usually are--but that's one way it could go.
posted by box at 6:59 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Most of the polling has been of Republican primary voters, but NH has more independents, and more Democrats, than it does Republicans, and, as Haley has observed, Trump is the most hated figure in American politics. I'm a Democrat in a state with open primaries, and I have repeatedly crossed the aisle to vote against the guy.
I'm going to register to vote soon now that I'm a citizen. I'll probably register as independent even though I'm a Democratic Socialist by nature because MA primaries are semi-open and maybe I can do the slightest bit of good by voting for Haley in the Republican primary here in Massachusetts.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:12 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
I'm going to register to vote soon now that I'm a citizen. I'll probably register as independent even though I'm a Democratic Socialist by nature because MA primaries are semi-open and maybe I can do the slightest bit of good by voting for Haley in the Republican primary here in Massachusetts.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 7:12 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
ITT: A lot of smarmy and not-very-skilled thinking about how liberals are the real problem.
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:28 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
posted by Aardvark Cheeselog at 7:28 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
The problem is people say "liberals" and sometimes they mean "establishment Democratic politicians" and sometimes they mean "the kind of people who thought punching Nazis was uncivil and should be stopped" and sometimes they mean "people who believe in classic liberalism" and only occasionally do they mean "people on Metafilter who believe in stuff like LGBTQ rights and abortion access."
I mean it's basically an incoherent label the way it's used in political conversations.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:45 AM on January 23 [35 favorites]
I mean it's basically an incoherent label the way it's used in political conversations.
posted by joannemerriam at 7:45 AM on January 23 [35 favorites]
I was reading this thread in the wee hours (insomnia from elderly parent/family dysfunction stuff). And it occurred to me that the thing to do is to offend and destabilize TFG enough that he very publicly self-destructs in incoherent rage, in a way that turns off the still semi-rational among his supporters.
Something along the lines of using his image and/or voice in mocking or disrespectful fashion on social media, that media-savvy teens and young adults pile into. Taking clips of his worst on-camera behaviours, and using them in creatively offensive ways, like punchlines or catchphrases. Not even political, just juvenile. Like editing those clips into famous movie or tv scenes, in increasingly outrageous ways. Ideally something catches a viral wave, multiplies and mutates, becomes so big that it leaks mainstream in some fashion. Mentions in popular infotainment. References or a skit on SNL. (Alec Baldwin is not available. Insert conspiracy theory here)
Anyone besides me remember trumpdonald.org? A user controls the position of a trumpet that blasts his combover. Gone now; I hope the builder got a good payout. Domain is available from a squatter. There are some Trump text-to-speech generators (yawn). What could be accomplished now with AI generated text and deepfakery? Not to deceive, but to ridicule.
Or making his name into slang. Example: slang for being handsy or rapey. "My date with Doug was horrible. A couple of drinks and he started getting trumpy. ". Or something more earthy -"Can you wait 5 minutes? I gotta take a trump."
Weak sauce, I know. I'm well past my "best before" date in online stuff, and about zero involvement with most social media. But there must be a way, dirty or not, to tunnel in and destabilize this guy, and deflate his movement. Where are the Steve Bannons and Roger Stones of the left?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:11 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Something along the lines of using his image and/or voice in mocking or disrespectful fashion on social media, that media-savvy teens and young adults pile into. Taking clips of his worst on-camera behaviours, and using them in creatively offensive ways, like punchlines or catchphrases. Not even political, just juvenile. Like editing those clips into famous movie or tv scenes, in increasingly outrageous ways. Ideally something catches a viral wave, multiplies and mutates, becomes so big that it leaks mainstream in some fashion. Mentions in popular infotainment. References or a skit on SNL. (Alec Baldwin is not available. Insert conspiracy theory here)
Anyone besides me remember trumpdonald.org? A user controls the position of a trumpet that blasts his combover. Gone now; I hope the builder got a good payout. Domain is available from a squatter. There are some Trump text-to-speech generators (yawn). What could be accomplished now with AI generated text and deepfakery? Not to deceive, but to ridicule.
Or making his name into slang. Example: slang for being handsy or rapey. "My date with Doug was horrible. A couple of drinks and he started getting trumpy. ". Or something more earthy -"Can you wait 5 minutes? I gotta take a trump."
Weak sauce, I know. I'm well past my "best before" date in online stuff, and about zero involvement with most social media. But there must be a way, dirty or not, to tunnel in and destabilize this guy, and deflate his movement. Where are the Steve Bannons and Roger Stones of the left?
posted by Artful Codger at 8:11 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
So, while some of the media is (rightly) mentioning his Hitleresque pronouncements, they should be running his near looney-tune drooling portions of his speeches. They make Biden look like a whiz kid.
No. No they should absolutely not be running Trump speaking at all. His speeches, as noted above and in quotes from the interviewee who is the subject of the FPP, are about emotion and are impressionistic. If you want people to notice the incoherence, you have to divorce it from the emotional layer. This means printing his speeches, or having someone else read the transcript in a boring and unemotional voice. Report about them, don’t give him free, unfettered air time.
posted by eviemath at 8:35 AM on January 23 [15 favorites]
No. No they should absolutely not be running Trump speaking at all. His speeches, as noted above and in quotes from the interviewee who is the subject of the FPP, are about emotion and are impressionistic. If you want people to notice the incoherence, you have to divorce it from the emotional layer. This means printing his speeches, or having someone else read the transcript in a boring and unemotional voice. Report about them, don’t give him free, unfettered air time.
posted by eviemath at 8:35 AM on January 23 [15 favorites]
Pity the poor Liberal. As soon as you point out that their failure to be the alternative we need is a part of the problem we face, they imagine themselves as the true victims.
Oh FFS, this is a giant strawman.
And this back and forth is a massive derail, my fault, I ignored the cardinal rule of the internet, never engage. So this time I’ll actually do my part to end it by dropping out of the conversation and go back to reading, listening to Sharlet, a crucial voice.
Not once did I cry victim. Here’s what I did:
The comment writer made the point made that liberals were responsible for this mess (paraphrase) I responded that that was not the case IMO. And I may have misunderstood the original writers emphasis. After another writer said I was crying victim I RESPECTFULLY responded by laying out what I thought liberalism is, to both explain it (even to myself) and to hopefully show that there is a lot of common ground between liberals and those further on the left.
What I did NOT do was cry victim, try to shut down advocates of the left various positions, or insult those folks.
Here’s a last question, asked in good faith – not an insult. How is the left (10% of the population, generously) going to beat the fascist maga-ists with 10% of the population? How, without liberals (30% generously) and even without legitimate centrists (20%, generously), will this occur?
The original comment writer, whom I again respectfully disagreed with, stated that (paraphrasing) we liberals should apologize for our sins, and get out of the way. So, what if we did? Again, how do you defeat maga - WHICH ON THE VERGE OF TAKING POWER!*
So, should we liberals take our ball and go home? No fucking way. I’ll continue to respectfully engage those on the left, integrate their perspective where I think it makes sense based on my own worldview, but won’t leave the fight.
End derail....
*Here’s IMO is MAGA’s first 100 days:
1) Nationwide abortion ban (with severe criminal penalties for both providers and patients, maybe for advocates we well)
2) Outlaw transitioning
3) Overturn Obergefell (and maybe Griswold)
4) Set up massive desert camps for the undocumented
5) Solves the ‘homeless (i.e. unhoused)– problems’ by sending these living breathing human beings to those same camps
6) Gives Abbott his wet dream of machine guns on the border bringing death to those migrants that should be let in
7) Generates a ‘Reichstag fire’ moment (given the talk by Stone et al on killing congresspersons - perhaps by killing the last centrist republican congressperson?), declares a state of emergency outlawing protesting, limiting ‘free speech’ of the press and on the internet
8) Indefinitely defers the 2028 election until such time as the border ‘crises’ is solved (which it will never be)
9) Trump I finally dies in 2039 after a 15 year bout of Alzheimer’s, followed by Trump II (ie “you thought it couldn’t be worse, well hold my beer”)
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:48 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Oh FFS, this is a giant strawman.
And this back and forth is a massive derail, my fault, I ignored the cardinal rule of the internet, never engage. So this time I’ll actually do my part to end it by dropping out of the conversation and go back to reading, listening to Sharlet, a crucial voice.
Not once did I cry victim. Here’s what I did:
The comment writer made the point made that liberals were responsible for this mess (paraphrase) I responded that that was not the case IMO. And I may have misunderstood the original writers emphasis. After another writer said I was crying victim I RESPECTFULLY responded by laying out what I thought liberalism is, to both explain it (even to myself) and to hopefully show that there is a lot of common ground between liberals and those further on the left.
What I did NOT do was cry victim, try to shut down advocates of the left various positions, or insult those folks.
Here’s a last question, asked in good faith – not an insult. How is the left (10% of the population, generously) going to beat the fascist maga-ists with 10% of the population? How, without liberals (30% generously) and even without legitimate centrists (20%, generously), will this occur?
The original comment writer, whom I again respectfully disagreed with, stated that (paraphrasing) we liberals should apologize for our sins, and get out of the way. So, what if we did? Again, how do you defeat maga - WHICH ON THE VERGE OF TAKING POWER!*
So, should we liberals take our ball and go home? No fucking way. I’ll continue to respectfully engage those on the left, integrate their perspective where I think it makes sense based on my own worldview, but won’t leave the fight.
End derail....
*Here’s IMO is MAGA’s first 100 days:
1) Nationwide abortion ban (with severe criminal penalties for both providers and patients, maybe for advocates we well)
2) Outlaw transitioning
3) Overturn Obergefell (and maybe Griswold)
4) Set up massive desert camps for the undocumented
5) Solves the ‘homeless (i.e. unhoused)– problems’ by sending these living breathing human beings to those same camps
6) Gives Abbott his wet dream of machine guns on the border bringing death to those migrants that should be let in
7) Generates a ‘Reichstag fire’ moment (given the talk by Stone et al on killing congresspersons - perhaps by killing the last centrist republican congressperson?), declares a state of emergency outlawing protesting, limiting ‘free speech’ of the press and on the internet
8) Indefinitely defers the 2028 election until such time as the border ‘crises’ is solved (which it will never be)
9) Trump I finally dies in 2039 after a 15 year bout of Alzheimer’s, followed by Trump II (ie “you thought it couldn’t be worse, well hold my beer”)
posted by WatTylerJr at 8:48 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Something along the lines of using his image and/or voice in mocking or disrespectful fashion on social media, that media-savvy teens and young adults pile into.
Good news: you are thinking of the Lincoln Project, which has already done quite a bit of this and will continue to do more. They're Republicans, by and large, but they are also running ads that are openly critical of Trump and as dirty and below the belt as anything that gets lobbed at the left. I wouldn't call them the Steve Bannons and Roger Stones of the left, because they're... er... *checks notes* they're the Roger Stones and Roy Cohns who happen to be paid by Republicans who hate Trump, first among 'em Rick Wilson (a Republican campaign strategist who cut his teeth on George H.W. Bush's first presidential run).
It is worth reading criticism of the Project's efforts, too; it's not clear how much they're helping or hurting, but the enemy of my enemy etc.
posted by sciatrix at 8:52 AM on January 23 [7 favorites]
Good news: you are thinking of the Lincoln Project, which has already done quite a bit of this and will continue to do more. They're Republicans, by and large, but they are also running ads that are openly critical of Trump and as dirty and below the belt as anything that gets lobbed at the left. I wouldn't call them the Steve Bannons and Roger Stones of the left, because they're... er... *checks notes* they're the Roger Stones and Roy Cohns who happen to be paid by Republicans who hate Trump, first among 'em Rick Wilson (a Republican campaign strategist who cut his teeth on George H.W. Bush's first presidential run).
It is worth reading criticism of the Project's efforts, too; it's not clear how much they're helping or hurting, but the enemy of my enemy etc.
posted by sciatrix at 8:52 AM on January 23 [7 favorites]
the thing to do is to offend and destabilize TFG enough that he very publicly self-destructs in incoherent rage
I like to think of this as the Rumpilstilskin strategy: if only we find the right name to call him, he'll fall apart. That has had zero success in the past, but people still dream...
posted by neroli at 8:53 AM on January 23 [8 favorites]
I like to think of this as the Rumpilstilskin strategy: if only we find the right name to call him, he'll fall apart. That has had zero success in the past, but people still dream...
posted by neroli at 8:53 AM on January 23 [8 favorites]
Joe Biden did a pretty good job. Stand up to him in person and tell him to shut up, with an implied threat of physical violence. That's why Trump spends his rallies campaigning against people not there.
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:57 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
posted by The_Vegetables at 8:57 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
Liberals and leftist should vote together to defeat Republicans in 2024. I think that is an unavoidable conclusion at this point.
The problems are in going forward.
If electoralism fails, and we end up with a fascist government, I think a lot of leftists expect we will being going it alone is terms of extralegal resistance to the implementation of Republican policy.
And in terms of electoral politics, the left isn't identical with progressive liberalism and leftists do have every right and intent to pursue political projects that don't benefit or even harm Democratic interests in the long term. Being coerced by the threat of fascist violence isn't a basis for long term political alliance.
Fundamentally, these are two very different political movements with very different worldviews that happen to be aligned against a common enemy. A degree of disagreement and distrust is inevitable.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:20 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
The problems are in going forward.
If electoralism fails, and we end up with a fascist government, I think a lot of leftists expect we will being going it alone is terms of extralegal resistance to the implementation of Republican policy.
And in terms of electoral politics, the left isn't identical with progressive liberalism and leftists do have every right and intent to pursue political projects that don't benefit or even harm Democratic interests in the long term. Being coerced by the threat of fascist violence isn't a basis for long term political alliance.
Fundamentally, these are two very different political movements with very different worldviews that happen to be aligned against a common enemy. A degree of disagreement and distrust is inevitable.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 9:20 AM on January 23 [11 favorites]
Thanks much for the responses. Re the Lincoln Project - I have heard of it. Had a quick look to see what they're doing currently. Seems they are firmly in the political arena, trying political arguments. Their arguments are earnest - sweaty, even - and have no chance of landing with MAGAts, let alone getting to TFG.
No, I'm talking full-on, zero argument, dirty, maximum disrespect heckling, that somehow becomes viral and unavoidable. Stuff that pops into everyone's head at the mention of his name, prompting a smirk among the general public, and anger and unease among the devotees. Something that's able to get under his skin. Ju jitsu to provoke maximum derangement. Trump must sink himself.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:22 AM on January 23 [2 favorites]
No, I'm talking full-on, zero argument, dirty, maximum disrespect heckling, that somehow becomes viral and unavoidable. Stuff that pops into everyone's head at the mention of his name, prompting a smirk among the general public, and anger and unease among the devotees. Something that's able to get under his skin. Ju jitsu to provoke maximum derangement. Trump must sink himself.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:22 AM on January 23 [2 favorites]
So, I found the interview illuminating enough that I picked up Jeff Sharlet's book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War. I stayed up way too late last night reading straight through it, and I had bad, bad dreams. I recommend it strongly (bad dreams notwithstanding). It's very beautiful writing, and not without hope -- but it clearly shows some disturbing things that the mainstream discourse about Trump is getting badly wrong.
It's floating around in my head along with another disturbing but illuminating thing I read this week, an essay called "My grandpa was a Nazi" by Bastian Allgeier, about the rise of the far-right AfD in Germany and what his experience with his (charming, magnetic, narcissistic) grandfather taught him about antifacism.
Here's what both works make incredibly clear: mocking Trump (or any other fascist) for their incoherence, rage, or lack of social niceties -- in the way you can see on any given night on Colbert or any given day on Metafilter -- absolutely misses the point. The folks following these fascist demagogues crave violence with an almost erotic intensity. They see Trump (and others like him) as quasi-religious figures sending secret messages that only they can hear. The more incoherent, rageful, and impolite they are, the better their followers like them, and the more powerful they feel. Jeff Sharlet refers to it as a sea change in the aesthetic of American politics; I think "aesthetic" might be too soft a word. It is politics as Dionysian rite, as ecstatic mystery cult. We will get nowhere trying to disassemble it with Apollonian logic and reason.
Note that almost half of the world's population will be voting in elections this year, and most of these elections feature far-right or outright fascist candidates.
I feel like it's still possible that we'll be able to hold Trump off -- this time -- through electoral politics (though that's only a possibility, not a certainty). But these people, this mob craving violence, will still be there. They're not going anywhere. Trump may still be around as their mouthpiece and enabler for a long time to come. And if not Trump, than one of the other fascists, both here in the US and around the world. As Allgeier's essay makes clear, fascists can be driven underground (a good outcome! don't get me wrong!) but they linger, ready to sprout in the next heavy rain.
We've got a lot of work to do.
posted by ourobouros at 10:01 AM on January 23 [33 favorites]
It's floating around in my head along with another disturbing but illuminating thing I read this week, an essay called "My grandpa was a Nazi" by Bastian Allgeier, about the rise of the far-right AfD in Germany and what his experience with his (charming, magnetic, narcissistic) grandfather taught him about antifacism.
Here's what both works make incredibly clear: mocking Trump (or any other fascist) for their incoherence, rage, or lack of social niceties -- in the way you can see on any given night on Colbert or any given day on Metafilter -- absolutely misses the point. The folks following these fascist demagogues crave violence with an almost erotic intensity. They see Trump (and others like him) as quasi-religious figures sending secret messages that only they can hear. The more incoherent, rageful, and impolite they are, the better their followers like them, and the more powerful they feel. Jeff Sharlet refers to it as a sea change in the aesthetic of American politics; I think "aesthetic" might be too soft a word. It is politics as Dionysian rite, as ecstatic mystery cult. We will get nowhere trying to disassemble it with Apollonian logic and reason.
Note that almost half of the world's population will be voting in elections this year, and most of these elections feature far-right or outright fascist candidates.
I feel like it's still possible that we'll be able to hold Trump off -- this time -- through electoral politics (though that's only a possibility, not a certainty). But these people, this mob craving violence, will still be there. They're not going anywhere. Trump may still be around as their mouthpiece and enabler for a long time to come. And if not Trump, than one of the other fascists, both here in the US and around the world. As Allgeier's essay makes clear, fascists can be driven underground (a good outcome! don't get me wrong!) but they linger, ready to sprout in the next heavy rain.
We've got a lot of work to do.
posted by ourobouros at 10:01 AM on January 23 [33 favorites]
My understanding of Sharlet's thesis is that Trumpists specifically enjoy the outrageous, stinky, stupid and burlesque elements of Trump's performance, and don't care a bit about the policy elements.
I don't think "we" can out-outrage him, both because his followers love the outrage and because "we" value things like not mocking people with disabilities. I mean, there are stories out there about him wearing a diaper and pooping in it in front of congress or foreign leaders. And stories about him being syphilitic. Stories about him having a small penis. Stories about him being drugged up and living on junkfood. They don't bite, because all of that is part of the spectacle. His brand is being a disgusting, vain, ridiculous old man who shouts out violent threats in endless streams of consciousness. It is the feature, not a bug. And the point is that (in the Trumpists' view) that you can do it when you are a star. You can assault women, shit in the literal face of the Japanese PM, and threaten to kill your own Vice President. You can tell outrageous lies, mock people in high offices, blackmail jurists and more and more.
His achilles heal is that he is not as rich as he claims. Which is why I disagree with those pundits who claim that the NY civil trials are less important than the federal charges. Obviously, the federal charges are much more damning in real life, but Trump isn't about real life. I wonder if there even is a real there there.
Show how tacky, cheap and run down his properties are. Show that he can't get a credit from a reputable bank (one that doesn't have Russian backing). Show the boxes of documents at Mar a Lago, not just to show he is a traitor and a spy, but to demonstrate that this so-called billionaire lives like a hoarder/bag lady. He looks like an old hoarding woman, too.
On edit: ouroboros put it more eloquently above.
posted by mumimor at 10:08 AM on January 23 [14 favorites]
I don't think "we" can out-outrage him, both because his followers love the outrage and because "we" value things like not mocking people with disabilities. I mean, there are stories out there about him wearing a diaper and pooping in it in front of congress or foreign leaders. And stories about him being syphilitic. Stories about him having a small penis. Stories about him being drugged up and living on junkfood. They don't bite, because all of that is part of the spectacle. His brand is being a disgusting, vain, ridiculous old man who shouts out violent threats in endless streams of consciousness. It is the feature, not a bug. And the point is that (in the Trumpists' view) that you can do it when you are a star. You can assault women, shit in the literal face of the Japanese PM, and threaten to kill your own Vice President. You can tell outrageous lies, mock people in high offices, blackmail jurists and more and more.
His achilles heal is that he is not as rich as he claims. Which is why I disagree with those pundits who claim that the NY civil trials are less important than the federal charges. Obviously, the federal charges are much more damning in real life, but Trump isn't about real life. I wonder if there even is a real there there.
Show how tacky, cheap and run down his properties are. Show that he can't get a credit from a reputable bank (one that doesn't have Russian backing). Show the boxes of documents at Mar a Lago, not just to show he is a traitor and a spy, but to demonstrate that this so-called billionaire lives like a hoarder/bag lady. He looks like an old hoarding woman, too.
On edit: ouroboros put it more eloquently above.
posted by mumimor at 10:08 AM on January 23 [14 favorites]
His achilles heal is that he is not as rich as he claims
That doesn't work because who cares if he's as rich as he claims? "Billionaire" is poorly defined when it comes to 'personal income' or 'lifestyle' or whatever. He flies in his own airplane and helicopter, he 'owns' a big estate in Florida, there are buildings with his name on it around the world, he had a show on tv. When he talks, journalists line up and listen. To the majority of the people in the world, that's what 'rich' is. when those people start shutting him down, journalists, his pilots, his drivers -that's when you can hit him with "he's not rich." Until then, you can say it but no-one will believe it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:14 AM on January 23 [14 favorites]
That doesn't work because who cares if he's as rich as he claims? "Billionaire" is poorly defined when it comes to 'personal income' or 'lifestyle' or whatever. He flies in his own airplane and helicopter, he 'owns' a big estate in Florida, there are buildings with his name on it around the world, he had a show on tv. When he talks, journalists line up and listen. To the majority of the people in the world, that's what 'rich' is. when those people start shutting him down, journalists, his pilots, his drivers -that's when you can hit him with "he's not rich." Until then, you can say it but no-one will believe it.
posted by The_Vegetables at 11:14 AM on January 23 [14 favorites]
when those people start shutting him down, journalists, his pilots, his drivers -that's when you can hit him with "he's not rich." Until then, you can say it but no-one will believe it.
I totally agree, that's why those civil cases are so important...
posted by mumimor at 11:20 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
I totally agree, that's why those civil cases are so important...
posted by mumimor at 11:20 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
My wife has been subscribing to Robert Hubbell's newsletter.
Yesterday, he said that Trump's mental decline is getting so obvious that mainstream media needs to be headlining that.
While I don't think that would have much effect on the MAGA cult (unless Fox starts doing it...), it should do a lot of good in a general election.
I think the comedy angle is fun (Colbert, Meyers, SNL), but not that effective in pointing out the danger.
Anyhow, any thoughts on Hubbell?
posted by MtDewd at 11:38 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Yesterday, he said that Trump's mental decline is getting so obvious that mainstream media needs to be headlining that.
While I don't think that would have much effect on the MAGA cult (unless Fox starts doing it...), it should do a lot of good in a general election.
I think the comedy angle is fun (Colbert, Meyers, SNL), but not that effective in pointing out the danger.
Anyhow, any thoughts on Hubbell?
posted by MtDewd at 11:38 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
thanks for the link, MtDewd
from what I can tell, a reasonable statement of facts from Hubbell
and this mental decline is clearly what will undermine Trump's bid most definitively.. it's getting so bad, only the most deranged Trumpists can continue to ignore it. there are Trumpists who will buy into his image (iconoclast, drainer of swamps, successful billionaire) and no amount of evidence re: his lies, deceit, and general awfulness will sway them. but when Trump shows Trump to be losing his marbles, right in front of their eyes? I think that sticks.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:44 AM on January 23
from what I can tell, a reasonable statement of facts from Hubbell
and this mental decline is clearly what will undermine Trump's bid most definitively.. it's getting so bad, only the most deranged Trumpists can continue to ignore it. there are Trumpists who will buy into his image (iconoclast, drainer of swamps, successful billionaire) and no amount of evidence re: his lies, deceit, and general awfulness will sway them. but when Trump shows Trump to be losing his marbles, right in front of their eyes? I think that sticks.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:44 AM on January 23
ourobouros: Here's what both works make incredibly clear: mocking Trump (or any other fascist) for their incoherence, rage, or lack of social niceties -- in the way you can see on any given night on Colbert or any given day on Metafilter -- absolutely misses the point. The folks following these fascist demagogues crave violence with an almost erotic intensity.
Lovers of horror movies forgive many plot holes. They might even love them more for the plot holes.
posted by clawsoon at 11:45 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Lovers of horror movies forgive many plot holes. They might even love them more for the plot holes.
posted by clawsoon at 11:45 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
He has has the trappings of wealth but that isn't enough for his ego and he is so thin skinned that it is a viable wat of prodding him into behaving badly. Most people would be content with being a mere centi-millionaire but to Donald Trump, not being a billionaire with a capital B is an attack at his core self-conception.
I don't think his supporters get the gist of how his assets are structured and all his debts and cash flow issues but I do think this line of inquiry hurts Donald Trump and makes him prone to lash out in ways that reinforce how unhinged he is. Ultimately resulting in turning off a few percentage of normie-Republicans and "independents".
posted by mmascolino at 11:46 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
I don't think his supporters get the gist of how his assets are structured and all his debts and cash flow issues but I do think this line of inquiry hurts Donald Trump and makes him prone to lash out in ways that reinforce how unhinged he is. Ultimately resulting in turning off a few percentage of normie-Republicans and "independents".
posted by mmascolino at 11:46 AM on January 23 [3 favorites]
It is politics as Dionysian rite, as ecstatic mystery cult.
Yes. This, exactly. The realm of myth, vibe, feeling, deciphering the secret stories and messages. “Not knowing as its own dim certainty,” as Sharlet observes.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:05 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
Yes. This, exactly. The realm of myth, vibe, feeling, deciphering the secret stories and messages. “Not knowing as its own dim certainty,” as Sharlet observes.
posted by MonkeyToes at 12:05 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
"No, I'm talking full-on, zero argument, dirty, maximum disrespect heckling, that somehow becomes viral and unavoidable. Stuff that pops into everyone's head at the mention of his name, prompting a smirk among the general public, and anger and unease among the devotees. Something that's able to get under his skin. Ju jitsu to provoke maximum derangement. Trump must sink himself."
What you are referring to is something like what Dan Savage did with Rick Santorum.
It's not a bad idea but I don't think it will move the needle.
posted by exlotuseater at 12:41 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]
What you are referring to is something like what Dan Savage did with Rick Santorum.
It's not a bad idea but I don't think it will move the needle.
posted by exlotuseater at 12:41 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]
The entire colonial experiment of the US was founded on, at its beginning, having the UK kick out all the people who were too religiously extreme to exist in their own society.
Nope. This is cherry-picking Massachusetts' origin as Plymouth Colony and leaving out the origins of the other 12 British colonies as well as those established by other European countries, especially Spain, who established Saint Augustine, Florida, the oldest European settlement in the continental United States, in 1565. Spain founded Santa Fe, New Mexico, in 1610.
Plymouth Colony, founded in 1620, wasn't even the first British colony: Jamestown (tobacco) and Newfoundland Colony (fish) were founded in 1610. That year the British also established Hampton, Virginia, the oldest continuously-occupied English settlement in the United States. Most of the other British colonies were founded for exploration of resources.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:13 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
Nope. This is cherry-picking Massachusetts' origin as Plymouth Colony and leaving out the origins of the other 12 British colonies as well as those established by other European countries, especially Spain, who established Saint Augustine, Florida, the oldest European settlement in the continental United States, in 1565. Spain founded Santa Fe, New Mexico, in 1610.
Plymouth Colony, founded in 1620, wasn't even the first British colony: Jamestown (tobacco) and Newfoundland Colony (fish) were founded in 1610. That year the British also established Hampton, Virginia, the oldest continuously-occupied English settlement in the United States. Most of the other British colonies were founded for exploration of resources.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:13 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
when Trump shows Trump to be losing his marbles, right in front of their eyes? I think that sticks.
I often hear Trump and Republicans say Joe Biden is out of it, but I haven't seen any evidence. Granted, I don't seek out.) Just in the last couple of weeks I've seen Trump say he's running against Obama, explain how water destroys magnets, and blame Nikki Haley for how she botched security at the Capitol on January 6.
Most people would be content with being a mere centi-millionaire but to Donald Trump, not being a billionaire with a capital B is an attack at his core self-conception.
When Hillary Clinton debated Trump I wanted her to call him a millionaire in the debate. He would lose his shit. I doubt Biden and Trump will debate.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:18 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
I often hear Trump and Republicans say Joe Biden is out of it, but I haven't seen any evidence. Granted, I don't seek out.) Just in the last couple of weeks I've seen Trump say he's running against Obama, explain how water destroys magnets, and blame Nikki Haley for how she botched security at the Capitol on January 6.
Most people would be content with being a mere centi-millionaire but to Donald Trump, not being a billionaire with a capital B is an attack at his core self-conception.
When Hillary Clinton debated Trump I wanted her to call him a millionaire in the debate. He would lose his shit. I doubt Biden and Trump will debate.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:18 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
I don't think liberals are serious about those ideas. Lip service, not action.
Santos: I know you like to use that word 'liberal' as if it were a crime.posted by kirkaracha at 1:24 PM on January 23 [10 favorites]
Vinick: No. I'm sorry. I shouldn't have used that word. I know Democrats think liberal is a bad word. So bad you had to change it. What do you call yourselves now, progressives? Is that it?
Santos: It's true. Republicans have tried to turn liberal into a bad word. Well, liberals ended slavery in this country.
Vinick: A Republican President ended slavery.
Santos: Yes, a liberal Republican; Senator, what happened to them? They got run out of your party! What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican Party? I'll tell you what they did. Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things, every one. So when you try to hurl that label at my feet, 'Liberal,' as if it were something to be ashamed of, something dirty, something to run away from, it won't work, Senator, because I will pick up that label and I will wear it as a badge of honor.
If we are going to have a flareup of violence and death in the near future, it will be in Texas.
As I type, the Texas National Guard is responding to SCOTUS's finding re-allowing the Feds access to the southern border by installing MORE razor wire and barriers. Abbott is vowing continued defiance. Rep. Clay Higgins has declared the feds' insistence on removing said razor wire is them "staging a civil war, and Texas should stand their ground." Chip Roy echoed that, insisting that Texas should ignore SCOTUS's order because "Texas still has the duty to defend its people."
But it won't be the TNG firing on federal officers -- or anyone else firing on them, if they're at all smart. Trained and armed federal officers aren't whom I'd want drawing a bead on me. The saber-rattling will continue, but the primary activity will be conservatives declaring that the law does not apply to them and daring the federal government to take bold action, and continuing to stand in the way when the feds decline to do so.
No, where I am concerned is that we have a state full of armed people, who can legally carry concealed handguns anywhere, who are being told that waves of migrants are actually a military invasion aided and abetted by the Biden administration. They're being told that their lives are in danger, that they're being replaced, that an invasion is happening and no one will do something about it -- so THEY'LL have to do it themselves.
Chip Roy, for example, bleated out:
“It’s like, if someone’s breaking into your house, and the court says ‘Oh, sorry. You can’t defend yourself.’ What do you tell the court?” Roy said. “You tell the court to go to hell, you defend yourself and then figure it out later.”
Someone's going to get trigger-happy. Someone's going to listen to various Congresspeople declaring the feds treasonous jackbooted thugs and decide to "help out." Someone is going to target migrants, or people whom they think are migrants, or people whom they think were migrants at some point, or people who just match a general description, and use force to "detain" them -- or worse.
And their leaders, their Governor and their Congresspeople and their media, are all telling them that they're morally justified in doing so.
Buckle up.
posted by delfin at 3:08 PM on January 23 [11 favorites]
As I type, the Texas National Guard is responding to SCOTUS's finding re-allowing the Feds access to the southern border by installing MORE razor wire and barriers. Abbott is vowing continued defiance. Rep. Clay Higgins has declared the feds' insistence on removing said razor wire is them "staging a civil war, and Texas should stand their ground." Chip Roy echoed that, insisting that Texas should ignore SCOTUS's order because "Texas still has the duty to defend its people."
But it won't be the TNG firing on federal officers -- or anyone else firing on them, if they're at all smart. Trained and armed federal officers aren't whom I'd want drawing a bead on me. The saber-rattling will continue, but the primary activity will be conservatives declaring that the law does not apply to them and daring the federal government to take bold action, and continuing to stand in the way when the feds decline to do so.
No, where I am concerned is that we have a state full of armed people, who can legally carry concealed handguns anywhere, who are being told that waves of migrants are actually a military invasion aided and abetted by the Biden administration. They're being told that their lives are in danger, that they're being replaced, that an invasion is happening and no one will do something about it -- so THEY'LL have to do it themselves.
Chip Roy, for example, bleated out:
“It’s like, if someone’s breaking into your house, and the court says ‘Oh, sorry. You can’t defend yourself.’ What do you tell the court?” Roy said. “You tell the court to go to hell, you defend yourself and then figure it out later.”
Someone's going to get trigger-happy. Someone's going to listen to various Congresspeople declaring the feds treasonous jackbooted thugs and decide to "help out." Someone is going to target migrants, or people whom they think are migrants, or people whom they think were migrants at some point, or people who just match a general description, and use force to "detain" them -- or worse.
And their leaders, their Governor and their Congresspeople and their media, are all telling them that they're morally justified in doing so.
Buckle up.
posted by delfin at 3:08 PM on January 23 [11 favorites]
I was impressed by Texas putting concertina wire along the TX/NM border to keep immigrants from crossing from Mexico into NM and then going hundreds of miles east to cross back into TX.
Considering one of the main purposes of the Constitution, when it was written, was to ensure the free flow of interstate trade, that is particularly problematic.
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]
Considering one of the main purposes of the Constitution, when it was written, was to ensure the free flow of interstate trade, that is particularly problematic.
posted by hippybear at 3:39 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]
When Hillary Clinton debated Trump I wanted her to call him a millionaire in the debate. He would lose his shit.Just picking a recent example of the "what we need to do is drive him crazy and make him explode embarrassingly, maybe by calling him a name" part of this thread; not really specifically responding to this example.
I don't mean to be totally dismissive of the idea, and I admit I personally don't really have a better one, but I do think it should be pointed out that he is crazy, has been exploding embarrassingly for years, and has been called a whole lot of names.
posted by Flunkie at 3:49 PM on January 23 [12 favorites]
As I type, the Texas National Guard is responding to SCOTUS's finding re-allowing the Feds access to the southern border by installing MORE razor wire and barriers.Yeah, yesterday, I was taken aback by the headline of an article on Talking Points Memo: "SCOTUS Allows Feds To Remove Wire Along Border, Deferring Showdown With Texas". It seemed... absurdly naive? Like the right wing nutjob committee was going to say "Oh, well, if SCOTUS says so". No way, I thought. They'll just double down instead.
And just now, when I went to TPM to find that link, I see they have a new article with a new headline, just a day later: "House Republicans Use SCOTUS Texas Ruling To Salivate Over ‘Civil War’".
posted by Flunkie at 3:57 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]
The only problem is January 6th took white supremacist tactics & imagery & mainstreamed it. Yet the media & the public at large are just dumping it down the memory hole as if it never happened.
Which takes me back to something that Laleh Khalili wrote on the then-bird app that day.
Which takes me back to something that Laleh Khalili wrote on the then-bird app that day.
A few quick thoughts:posted by non canadian guy at 4:31 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]
1) This was a coordinated, nationwide effort (see the break-ins & protests at various state houses ).
2) This was a massive recruiting success for fascists in the US. They don't see themselves as defeated. This was to them a charivari, a rehearsal. 1/
3) The international dimension of the rise of the fascists was on display with all the international flags being flown in the protests. 2/
And most alarmingly,
4) The police stood aside, let them in, didn't arrest but a dozen people. They helped them by inaction. Next time they will help with coordinated action.
Good night. /fin
Thing about Texas is, they're an entire state political/business elite as the Black Knight from Monty Python. The feds could annihilate them, and the last one left would just get up, dust himself off, and declare "It's just a flesh wound."
We should find a way to section the lot of 'em and pump 'em full of Ecstasy. Then they'll go all Vincent Price "Why won't you love me? Why won't you LOVE ME? It's a plot, A CONSPIRACY! I demand you LOVE ME as much as I LOVE YOU -- or else!"
[sub]ok that's enough internet for me today[/sub]
[sub] angle-brackets sub doesn't seem to work here anymore[/sub]
posted by zaixfeep at 4:44 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
We should find a way to section the lot of 'em and pump 'em full of Ecstasy. Then they'll go all Vincent Price "Why won't you love me? Why won't you LOVE ME? It's a plot, A CONSPIRACY! I demand you LOVE ME as much as I LOVE YOU -- or else!"
[sub]ok that's enough internet for me today[/sub]
[sub] angle-brackets sub doesn't seem to work here anymore[/sub]
posted by zaixfeep at 4:44 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
<sub>
Which I got by typing:
<sub>
Which I got by typing:
&lt;sub&gt;
And so on, with "amp" = "ampersand", "gt" = "greater than", and "lt" = "less than"
posted by Flunkie at 5:01 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
Which I got by typing:
<sub>
Which I got by typing:
&lt;sub&gt;
And so on, with "amp" = "ampersand", "gt" = "greater than", and "lt" = "less than"
posted by Flunkie at 5:01 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
No, I'm talking full-on, zero argument, dirty, maximum disrespect heckling, that somehow becomes viral and unavoidable
Vic Berger does some good work.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:43 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Vic Berger does some good work.
posted by tiny frying pan at 5:43 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
[derail]Flunkie, thanks -- to clarify, <sub>some text</sub> as a signifier for subscripted text seems to no longer be recognized by the MeFi comment box entry. Likewise with <super>. Inconvenient, but it does not rise to the level of complaint-worthy.[/derail]
posted by zaixfeep at 5:49 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
posted by zaixfeep at 5:49 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
I don't mean to be totally dismissive of the idea, and I admit I personally don't really have a better one, but I do think it should be pointed out that he is crazy, has been exploding embarrassingly for years, and has been called a whole lot of names.
I think a concerted effort to call him out on being a rapist could get under his skin. Let him keep explaining that is wasn't a criminal act of rape under NY Law because his penis is no larger than his fingers and the jury couldn't conclude that penile penetration occurred.
posted by mikelieman at 6:32 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
I think a concerted effort to call him out on being a rapist could get under his skin. Let him keep explaining that is wasn't a criminal act of rape under NY Law because his penis is no larger than his fingers and the jury couldn't conclude that penile penetration occurred.
posted by mikelieman at 6:32 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
But... he wouldn't do that.
He's not going to say "Well, you see, legally, it was not rape, because the jury decided that my penis is too small to be absolutely sure that that was what I used to penetrate her vagina." He'd just say "WRONG", "NEVER HAPPENED", "DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO SHE IS", "NOT MY TYPE", "FAKE NEWS" over and over and over, just like he always does. And, like he did in response to Rubio's "You know what they say about guys with tiny hands", "NOTHING WRONG DOWN THERE, BELIEVE ME, BELIEVE ME".
posted by Flunkie at 6:49 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]
He's not going to say "Well, you see, legally, it was not rape, because the jury decided that my penis is too small to be absolutely sure that that was what I used to penetrate her vagina." He'd just say "WRONG", "NEVER HAPPENED", "DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO SHE IS", "NOT MY TYPE", "FAKE NEWS" over and over and over, just like he always does. And, like he did in response to Rubio's "You know what they say about guys with tiny hands", "NOTHING WRONG DOWN THERE, BELIEVE ME, BELIEVE ME".
posted by Flunkie at 6:49 PM on January 23 [5 favorites]
(I'm a sucker for audiobooks narrated by the author so am happy to report that Audible has this book, plus I assume you can get it from libraries too now)
posted by torokunai at 9:22 PM on January 23
posted by torokunai at 9:22 PM on January 23
This just in...Johnny Marr is blasting the Trump campaign for playing "Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want" at their rallies.
The campaign agreed to stop, and then immediately switched to Marr's (I've Been) Getting Away With It (All My Life)" instead. ;->
posted by zaixfeep at 9:25 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
The campaign agreed to stop, and then immediately switched to Marr's (I've Been) Getting Away With It (All My Life)" instead. ;->
posted by zaixfeep at 9:25 PM on January 23 [2 favorites]
Heckling fascists doesn't bother them. They don't care what you think. I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding to suggest that heckling would cost TFG any support, or Desatanist or any other criminal scumbag with a base.
What you could do, but won't, is to deny them your cooperation. Instead you could be cooperating with antifascists. But you won't do that, because scary word.
You'll keep on paying your rent to your fascist landlord, taxes to your government run by fascists, tithes to your church that supports the fascist candidate (which is illegal, but still happens every damn where).
You'll keep buying things from companies that support fascists, because it's easier and cheaper, and because money is real to you while your unhoused neighbors are not.
You'll keep going to events with your fascist neighbors, family members, and colleagues. You'll avoid confronting them over their political rants for the sake of comity. At most you'll give them side-eye, make excuses, and sidle away to get another canape.
When they come for your neighbors you will draw the blinds and look away. When they come for you you'll comply with orders, lie peacefully on the ground. And there, peacefully, you will stay.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:25 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
What you could do, but won't, is to deny them your cooperation. Instead you could be cooperating with antifascists. But you won't do that, because scary word.
You'll keep on paying your rent to your fascist landlord, taxes to your government run by fascists, tithes to your church that supports the fascist candidate (which is illegal, but still happens every damn where).
You'll keep buying things from companies that support fascists, because it's easier and cheaper, and because money is real to you while your unhoused neighbors are not.
You'll keep going to events with your fascist neighbors, family members, and colleagues. You'll avoid confronting them over their political rants for the sake of comity. At most you'll give them side-eye, make excuses, and sidle away to get another canape.
When they come for your neighbors you will draw the blinds and look away. When they come for you you'll comply with orders, lie peacefully on the ground. And there, peacefully, you will stay.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:25 PM on January 23 [8 favorites]
What you could do, but won't, is to deny them your cooperation. Instead you could be cooperating with antifascists. But you won't do that, because scary word.
Counterpoint
(And it happened in the US, too, with the BLM protests).
posted by mumimor at 10:39 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]
Counterpoint
(And it happened in the US, too, with the BLM protests).
posted by mumimor at 10:39 PM on January 23 [3 favorites]
I hadn't forgotten either of those things, but I thank you for the reminder. I was in some of those crowds, and if I survive, will be again.
But in the time since those big BLM marches, Black Lives have not suddenly started Mattering. There's no indication that AfD, an obviously (to this non-german) neonazi party, will stop existing or lose the support it enjoyed before this report came out. The sweeps have not stopped, but instead have ramped up. The city I once called home, back when that was a concept that could have meaning for me, has had its council taken over by right wing mayor's toadies.
Marching in the streets is great because it shows that we are not alone. But eventually the march is over. Big events are not the essence of the struggle against fascism. Antifascism is every-day struggle, because fascists keep attacking. It's kind of their thing.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:49 PM on January 23 [7 favorites]
But in the time since those big BLM marches, Black Lives have not suddenly started Mattering. There's no indication that AfD, an obviously (to this non-german) neonazi party, will stop existing or lose the support it enjoyed before this report came out. The sweeps have not stopped, but instead have ramped up. The city I once called home, back when that was a concept that could have meaning for me, has had its council taken over by right wing mayor's toadies.
Marching in the streets is great because it shows that we are not alone. But eventually the march is over. Big events are not the essence of the struggle against fascism. Antifascism is every-day struggle, because fascists keep attacking. It's kind of their thing.
posted by Rev. Irreverent Revenant at 10:49 PM on January 23 [7 favorites]
Antifascism is every-day struggle, because fascists keep attacking.
Yeah. When I was very young, I thought fascists were a thing of the past. I was wrong. Reality is they are a fact of life, like rain and snow where I live, and you can't ignore them. But you can keep them at a manageable level if all the not-fascists can figure out how to work together. The left alone cannot keep the fascists at bay.
(It's raining through the roof here, and it's also still night at 8am, so I can't see anything. Very metaphorical).
posted by mumimor at 10:58 PM on January 23 [7 favorites]
Yeah. When I was very young, I thought fascists were a thing of the past. I was wrong. Reality is they are a fact of life, like rain and snow where I live, and you can't ignore them. But you can keep them at a manageable level if all the not-fascists can figure out how to work together. The left alone cannot keep the fascists at bay.
(It's raining through the roof here, and it's also still night at 8am, so I can't see anything. Very metaphorical).
posted by mumimor at 10:58 PM on January 23 [7 favorites]
And there, peacefully, you will stay.
Nately: Don't you have any principles?
Old man: Of course not!
Nately: No morality?
Old man: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Nately: How do you know?
Old man: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man (with pity): If you live.
posted by flabdablet at 11:21 PM on January 23 [12 favorites]
Nately: Don't you have any principles?
Old man: Of course not!
Nately: No morality?
Old man: I'm a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That's why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
Nately: You talk like a madman.
Old man: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I'm fanatically pro-American. You'll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
Nately: You're a shameful opportunist! What you don't understand is that it's better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
Old man: You have it backwards. It's better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
Nately: How do you know?
Old man: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?
Nately: I'll be 20 in January.
Old man (with pity): If you live.
posted by flabdablet at 11:21 PM on January 23 [12 favorites]
Chris Hedges should disclose how much he got paid by the Kremlin to run his Russia Today YouTube show.
A German journalist who was outed and admitted to getting paid by Putin's oligarch to write a pro-Putin book for €600,000. And that's just for the book – how much he got for years of pro-Putin interviews on German state TV is unknown.
Consider Chris Hedges' reach, I imagine his payment is/was significantly more.
Putin is a Chris Hedges booster. Hedges would be nothing without him. Pretty gross to see him get airtime.
It's fascinating to watch parts of the American left echo Putins propaganda [Le Monde English] which in turn supports QAnon and Donald Trump. Similar things are happening in Europe. It's a real own-goal ... but, yeah, for some, wealth trumps principles and truth. Easy money if you have some fame to sell and don't give a shit.
posted by UN at 4:44 AM on January 24 [4 favorites]
A German journalist who was outed and admitted to getting paid by Putin's oligarch to write a pro-Putin book for €600,000. And that's just for the book – how much he got for years of pro-Putin interviews on German state TV is unknown.
Consider Chris Hedges' reach, I imagine his payment is/was significantly more.
Putin is a Chris Hedges booster. Hedges would be nothing without him. Pretty gross to see him get airtime.
It's fascinating to watch parts of the American left echo Putins propaganda [Le Monde English] which in turn supports QAnon and Donald Trump. Similar things are happening in Europe. It's a real own-goal ... but, yeah, for some, wealth trumps principles and truth. Easy money if you have some fame to sell and don't give a shit.
posted by UN at 4:44 AM on January 24 [4 favorites]
Did Hedges actually lie or spread propaganda in support of Putin or the Ukraine invasion? Or is the disapproval strictly for taking a check from RT? This isn't rhetorical, I am genuinely unsure of the answer.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:19 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:19 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
He'd just say "WRONG", "NEVER HAPPENED", "DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO SHE IS"
The thing is, every time he does that, E. Jean Carroll has a jury give her more of his money for defamation.
Her attorney asked the jury most recently, "What will it take to get him to stop?" referring to punitive damages -- and maybe they keep doing this until it takes a billion dollars in damages to make a dent.
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 AM on January 24 [7 favorites]
The thing is, every time he does that, E. Jean Carroll has a jury give her more of his money for defamation.
Her attorney asked the jury most recently, "What will it take to get him to stop?" referring to punitive damages -- and maybe they keep doing this until it takes a billion dollars in damages to make a dent.
posted by mikelieman at 6:45 AM on January 24 [7 favorites]
Haley seems the GOPs best option for excising the cancer of Trump while also gaining the Oval Office. Will they (the GOP establishment) take it?
After the NH primary results, and observing TFG's response, I'm even more convinced that it's imperative to keep him on edge and unsettled, however possible. Under continued duress he will soon break - mentally or physically.
The pressure has to be kept up. There may not be Rottweilers in his path, but a thousand snarling nipping Yorkies can get the job done too.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:11 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
After the NH primary results, and observing TFG's response, I'm even more convinced that it's imperative to keep him on edge and unsettled, however possible. Under continued duress he will soon break - mentally or physically.
The pressure has to be kept up. There may not be Rottweilers in his path, but a thousand snarling nipping Yorkies can get the job done too.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:11 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
But in the time since those big BLM marches, Black Lives have not suddenly started Mattering.
How many cops do you think were marching in those streets? You're asking for a sort of one to one "we do a thing and we predictably and reliably get a desirable outcome on an immediate time scale." That's not how social justice or activism works. It's just not. You don't see quick transitions like that, and half the people you do sway to your side are going to claim they were always with you even when you yourself saw them throwing refuse at your marches.
If this is the parameter of success you're looking for—BLM marches mean the problem of unjust black police deaths immediately ceases, using whatever metric you're imagining for that—you will always be disappointed, unsatisfied, and depressed about the results of your work. Which means that eventually you will burn out and leave, or start shouting at everyone around you for not working hard enough—which will further burn everyone else out, by the way.
Look closely at the history of successful movements. They are always more incremental and patchwork and imperfect than anyone might desire, but things do change. The mass movements change things in unexpected, patchwork fashions—not least by changing the fashion of what is polite and acceptable to say and do. To do this work sustainably, you can't be constantly setting yourself up to fail and feel alone and unlistened to. You have to understand what success looks like, and history is the place to find that—in all the ragged, unsatisfactory details that leave further work yet to do.
posted by sciatrix at 7:32 AM on January 24 [13 favorites]
How many cops do you think were marching in those streets? You're asking for a sort of one to one "we do a thing and we predictably and reliably get a desirable outcome on an immediate time scale." That's not how social justice or activism works. It's just not. You don't see quick transitions like that, and half the people you do sway to your side are going to claim they were always with you even when you yourself saw them throwing refuse at your marches.
If this is the parameter of success you're looking for—BLM marches mean the problem of unjust black police deaths immediately ceases, using whatever metric you're imagining for that—you will always be disappointed, unsatisfied, and depressed about the results of your work. Which means that eventually you will burn out and leave, or start shouting at everyone around you for not working hard enough—which will further burn everyone else out, by the way.
Look closely at the history of successful movements. They are always more incremental and patchwork and imperfect than anyone might desire, but things do change. The mass movements change things in unexpected, patchwork fashions—not least by changing the fashion of what is polite and acceptable to say and do. To do this work sustainably, you can't be constantly setting yourself up to fail and feel alone and unlistened to. You have to understand what success looks like, and history is the place to find that—in all the ragged, unsatisfactory details that leave further work yet to do.
posted by sciatrix at 7:32 AM on January 24 [13 favorites]
What you could do, but won't, is to deny them your cooperation. Instead you could be cooperating with antifascists. But you won't do that, because scary word.
You'll keep on paying your rent to your fascist landlord, taxes to your government run by fascists, tithes to your church that supports the fascist candidate (which is illegal, but still happens every damn where).
You'll keep buying things from companies that support fascists, because it's easier and cheaper, and because money is real to you while your unhoused neighbors are not.
You'll keep going to events with your fascist neighbors, family members, and colleagues. You'll avoid confronting them over their political rants for the sake of comity. At most you'll give them side-eye, make excuses, and sidle away to get another canape.
When they come for your neighbors you will draw the blinds and look away. When they come for you you'll comply with orders, lie peacefully on the ground. And there, peacefully, you will stay.
This is cruel, disrespectful, and untrue. You are denying the reality that I see all around me. Everyone I know lives in liberal enclaves and we don’t talk about politics unless we’re willing to start crying and screaming. I haven’t heard a fascist rant in 28 years. My congregation belongs to an area coalition that carries out regular political activism including actual actions that help others like feeding the homeless and housing refugees. As for paying rent and buying shit, if you don’t have hostages to fortune then good for you. But I don’t need and won’t accept your judgement. If you want to tell people that they’re meek cows go on Nextdoor and yell into the void or something. This is not the place.
posted by bq at 7:44 AM on January 24 [19 favorites]
You'll keep on paying your rent to your fascist landlord, taxes to your government run by fascists, tithes to your church that supports the fascist candidate (which is illegal, but still happens every damn where).
You'll keep buying things from companies that support fascists, because it's easier and cheaper, and because money is real to you while your unhoused neighbors are not.
You'll keep going to events with your fascist neighbors, family members, and colleagues. You'll avoid confronting them over their political rants for the sake of comity. At most you'll give them side-eye, make excuses, and sidle away to get another canape.
When they come for your neighbors you will draw the blinds and look away. When they come for you you'll comply with orders, lie peacefully on the ground. And there, peacefully, you will stay.
This is cruel, disrespectful, and untrue. You are denying the reality that I see all around me. Everyone I know lives in liberal enclaves and we don’t talk about politics unless we’re willing to start crying and screaming. I haven’t heard a fascist rant in 28 years. My congregation belongs to an area coalition that carries out regular political activism including actual actions that help others like feeding the homeless and housing refugees. As for paying rent and buying shit, if you don’t have hostages to fortune then good for you. But I don’t need and won’t accept your judgement. If you want to tell people that they’re meek cows go on Nextdoor and yell into the void or something. This is not the place.
posted by bq at 7:44 AM on January 24 [19 favorites]
The thing is, every time he does that, E. Jean Carroll has a jury give her more of his money for defamation.
Her attorney asked the jury most recently, "What will it take to get him to stop?" referring to punitive damages -- and maybe they keep doing this until it takes a billion dollars in damages to make a dent.
Is he actually paying this money? He doesn’t seem to pay his debts very often.
posted by bq at 7:46 AM on January 24
Her attorney asked the jury most recently, "What will it take to get him to stop?" referring to punitive damages -- and maybe they keep doing this until it takes a billion dollars in damages to make a dent.
Is he actually paying this money? He doesn’t seem to pay his debts very often.
posted by bq at 7:46 AM on January 24
When they come for your neighbors you will draw the blinds and look away. When they come for you you'll comply with orders, lie peacefully on the ground. And there, peacefully, you will stay.
Ha! Fat chance on this. I will feel bad for anyone who comes for my neighbors or my family, but not for long.
Note that this movement has been with us all along. Their plan is just coming together now - they’ve got the judges, the media, and now international sponsorship via Putin and a populist media figure in Drumpf. How long has the Federalist Society been working towards this outcome? Decades at least. Citizens’ United really opened the flood gates on the money stream - all I want is to know where each and every dollar came from.
There are more of us (liberals/leftists/progressives/moderates) than them (GOP/fascists), but they’re really good at spreading lies (climate change isn’t real, etc) and fear (immigrants will take your jobs and worse) than we are. They want to be in control because that’s who they are, we want to just do our own thing and rely on a functional government to handle things appropriately.
It is unfortunate Hedges took Putin money as that’s a line in the sand for me. Sowing doubt is the name of the game here but there are enough voices that didn’t take fascist money for me to listen to.
posted by Farce_First at 8:11 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Ha! Fat chance on this. I will feel bad for anyone who comes for my neighbors or my family, but not for long.
Note that this movement has been with us all along. Their plan is just coming together now - they’ve got the judges, the media, and now international sponsorship via Putin and a populist media figure in Drumpf. How long has the Federalist Society been working towards this outcome? Decades at least. Citizens’ United really opened the flood gates on the money stream - all I want is to know where each and every dollar came from.
There are more of us (liberals/leftists/progressives/moderates) than them (GOP/fascists), but they’re really good at spreading lies (climate change isn’t real, etc) and fear (immigrants will take your jobs and worse) than we are. They want to be in control because that’s who they are, we want to just do our own thing and rely on a functional government to handle things appropriately.
It is unfortunate Hedges took Putin money as that’s a line in the sand for me. Sowing doubt is the name of the game here but there are enough voices that didn’t take fascist money for me to listen to.
posted by Farce_First at 8:11 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Haley seems the GOPs best option for excising the cancer of Trump while also gaining the Oval Office. Will they (the GOP establishment) take it?
For this exercise, you are a GOP establishment strategist, staring at the state of the primary race. It is true that the field has now been whittled down to two, as the rest of the circus train's inhabitants have been detatched one by one. You are now given the task of selling the GOP base -- the PRIMARY base, the ones who are sufficiently motivated to come out and vote more than once every four years -- to throw their full and enthusiastic support behind Nikki Haley.
You know that trying to sway diehard Trumpoids to your side is hopeless. A big chunk of the base is fully invested in the cult of personality, consider anyone not subservient to Trump's will to be RINOs and Democrat plants and traitors and globalist scum, and already have the most prominent non-Trump candidate's scalp in their pocket. But you persevere, nonetheless. Your target, instead, is the vast (?) number of Mainstream Establishment Republicans who are dying to jump off of the Trump Train and have been waiting for a strong alternative to emerge.
What accomplishments of Haley's can you point to that would demonstrate that she's a force to be reckoned with, a conservative dynamo dedicated to True American Values and Constitutional Purity at all costs?
What has she proposed that she will do once elected that is different from Trump, AND will make the base go "hmmm, I like that better than what Trump's offering?"
What assurances can you provide that, given Trump's affinity for punishing and humiliating anyone in the GOP who takes even a mild stand against him at any time, a massive wave of support is lying in wait for Haley, ready to wash over the remaining primaries and carry her to dominant victories, and certainly not going to retreat and re-swear loyalty to Trump at the first minor misstep or setback Haley suffers going forward?
What reason can you provide to vote for Nikki Haley other than that (a) she is a Republican and (b) she is not Donald Trump, that will be persuasive enough to swing state after state after state QUICKLY so as to set Haley up for Super Tuesday in March?
My advice to you is the same that the esteemed John "Bluto" Blutarsky once gave Flounder -- to start drinking heavily.
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on January 24 [6 favorites]
For this exercise, you are a GOP establishment strategist, staring at the state of the primary race. It is true that the field has now been whittled down to two, as the rest of the circus train's inhabitants have been detatched one by one. You are now given the task of selling the GOP base -- the PRIMARY base, the ones who are sufficiently motivated to come out and vote more than once every four years -- to throw their full and enthusiastic support behind Nikki Haley.
You know that trying to sway diehard Trumpoids to your side is hopeless. A big chunk of the base is fully invested in the cult of personality, consider anyone not subservient to Trump's will to be RINOs and Democrat plants and traitors and globalist scum, and already have the most prominent non-Trump candidate's scalp in their pocket. But you persevere, nonetheless. Your target, instead, is the vast (?) number of Mainstream Establishment Republicans who are dying to jump off of the Trump Train and have been waiting for a strong alternative to emerge.
What accomplishments of Haley's can you point to that would demonstrate that she's a force to be reckoned with, a conservative dynamo dedicated to True American Values and Constitutional Purity at all costs?
What has she proposed that she will do once elected that is different from Trump, AND will make the base go "hmmm, I like that better than what Trump's offering?"
What assurances can you provide that, given Trump's affinity for punishing and humiliating anyone in the GOP who takes even a mild stand against him at any time, a massive wave of support is lying in wait for Haley, ready to wash over the remaining primaries and carry her to dominant victories, and certainly not going to retreat and re-swear loyalty to Trump at the first minor misstep or setback Haley suffers going forward?
What reason can you provide to vote for Nikki Haley other than that (a) she is a Republican and (b) she is not Donald Trump, that will be persuasive enough to swing state after state after state QUICKLY so as to set Haley up for Super Tuesday in March?
My advice to you is the same that the esteemed John "Bluto" Blutarsky once gave Flounder -- to start drinking heavily.
posted by delfin at 8:27 AM on January 24 [6 favorites]
PBS Newshour inadvertently aired a ready made Nikki Haley ad on Monday during campaign coverage. (begins at 2:09 in the video) Transcript below.
Lisa Desjardins: ...Haley trails Trump and needs voters like Steve Kesselring, a Trump supporter until his 10-year-old daughter, Hannah, asked to listen to other candidates. They did again and again, New Hampshire-style. The two became campaign trail celebrities.
Hannah Kesselring, Nikki Haley Supporter: Eight Nikki Haley events, three Chris Christie events I have to. He's been to four.
Lisa Desjardins: And Steve became a Haley voter.
Steve Kesselring, Nikki Haley Supporter: she talked about how much debt we actually acquired, like the largest debt that — of any sitting president. And I started thinking about like, what do I want to leave for my daughter? What do I want to do for her future?
Lisa Desjardins: What Hannah wants is not Trump.
Hannah Kesselring: He's going to call Chris Christie a fat pig. He's going to call Nikki a birdbrain. I don't want my president to be like that.
posted by Brian B. at 8:55 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Lisa Desjardins: ...Haley trails Trump and needs voters like Steve Kesselring, a Trump supporter until his 10-year-old daughter, Hannah, asked to listen to other candidates. They did again and again, New Hampshire-style. The two became campaign trail celebrities.
Hannah Kesselring, Nikki Haley Supporter: Eight Nikki Haley events, three Chris Christie events I have to. He's been to four.
Lisa Desjardins: And Steve became a Haley voter.
Steve Kesselring, Nikki Haley Supporter: she talked about how much debt we actually acquired, like the largest debt that — of any sitting president. And I started thinking about like, what do I want to leave for my daughter? What do I want to do for her future?
Lisa Desjardins: What Hannah wants is not Trump.
Hannah Kesselring: He's going to call Chris Christie a fat pig. He's going to call Nikki a birdbrain. I don't want my president to be like that.
posted by Brian B. at 8:55 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
[Ok, I am] a GOP establishment strategist
Weeee! lookit my Brooks Bros suit! I can see my face on my shoes!
What accomplishments of Haley's can you point to that would demonstrate that she's a force to be reckoned with, a conservative dynamo dedicated to True American Values and Constitutional Purity at all costs?
I'm not intimate enough with her political history, sorry, but has she not racked enough credits while the Governor of SC, and at the UN, to show her competence, and the cut of her conservative jib? Has she not sipped the Koolaid, and recited most of the MAGA catechisms on the campaign trail to be trusted as a true believer, if not fully a devout unquestioning adherent?
What has she proposed that she will do once elected that is different from Trump, AND will make the base go "hmmm, I like that better than what Trump's offering?"
Well, policy-wise, is she not reasonably close enough to Trump on the big GOP policy stuff? So you're still getting the solid conservative package, with some grownup smarts, competence, credibility on the world stage, a much better chance with women, college-educated conservatives, moderates, independents, and even disaffected centrist Dems.
The job is to show to most Republicans that she's true conservative enough AND more competent, AND at the same time emphasizing the Krazy, and the administrative incompetence of TFG by contrast. You gotta keep banging foundation cracks into TFG. Wear him to an incoherent nub. Dare we hope that some of the more sentient MAGAts, becoming a wee bit disillusioned, would start to consider that if not Trump, Haley could become an acceptable substitute?
I gotta think that some MAGA types are a trifle unnerved by world events, and secretly wish for less Krazy in the Oval Office.
What assurances can you provide that, given Trump's affinity for punishing and humiliating anyone in the GOP who takes even a mild stand against him at any time, a massive wave of support is lying in wait for Haley, ready to wash over the remaining primaries and carry her to dominant victories, and certainly not going to retreat and re-swear loyalty to Trump at the first minor misstep or setback Haley suffers going forward?
That's why it's a joint operation. Trump must be seen as a sinking ship. Given enough signs of trouble, the rats will jump, no?
To switch metaphors, a leak in a dam starts small, but at some point...whoosh!
I'm guessing that the SC primary will be her Waterloo, or her upturn.
All I got. (Not American) . Maybe i picked a bad time to try cutting back on the booze.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:22 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Weeee! lookit my Brooks Bros suit! I can see my face on my shoes!
What accomplishments of Haley's can you point to that would demonstrate that she's a force to be reckoned with, a conservative dynamo dedicated to True American Values and Constitutional Purity at all costs?
I'm not intimate enough with her political history, sorry, but has she not racked enough credits while the Governor of SC, and at the UN, to show her competence, and the cut of her conservative jib? Has she not sipped the Koolaid, and recited most of the MAGA catechisms on the campaign trail to be trusted as a true believer, if not fully a devout unquestioning adherent?
What has she proposed that she will do once elected that is different from Trump, AND will make the base go "hmmm, I like that better than what Trump's offering?"
Well, policy-wise, is she not reasonably close enough to Trump on the big GOP policy stuff? So you're still getting the solid conservative package, with some grownup smarts, competence, credibility on the world stage, a much better chance with women, college-educated conservatives, moderates, independents, and even disaffected centrist Dems.
The job is to show to most Republicans that she's true conservative enough AND more competent, AND at the same time emphasizing the Krazy, and the administrative incompetence of TFG by contrast. You gotta keep banging foundation cracks into TFG. Wear him to an incoherent nub. Dare we hope that some of the more sentient MAGAts, becoming a wee bit disillusioned, would start to consider that if not Trump, Haley could become an acceptable substitute?
I gotta think that some MAGA types are a trifle unnerved by world events, and secretly wish for less Krazy in the Oval Office.
What assurances can you provide that, given Trump's affinity for punishing and humiliating anyone in the GOP who takes even a mild stand against him at any time, a massive wave of support is lying in wait for Haley, ready to wash over the remaining primaries and carry her to dominant victories, and certainly not going to retreat and re-swear loyalty to Trump at the first minor misstep or setback Haley suffers going forward?
That's why it's a joint operation. Trump must be seen as a sinking ship. Given enough signs of trouble, the rats will jump, no?
To switch metaphors, a leak in a dam starts small, but at some point...whoosh!
I'm guessing that the SC primary will be her Waterloo, or her upturn.
All I got. (Not American) . Maybe i picked a bad time to try cutting back on the booze.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:22 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Did Hedges actually lie or spread propaganda in support of Putin or the Ukraine invasion? Or is the disapproval strictly for taking a check from RT? This isn't rhetorical, I am genuinely unsure of the answer.
In the interview with Jeff Sharlet, Hedges is fine and Ukraine/Russia does not really come up. In Substack and other places, Hedges writes screed after screed decrying any American/Western attempt to help Ukraine. If pressed he will admit that Russia is to blame for actually, you know, invading Ukraine and brutalizing its population, and then he will go right back to writing 10,000 word long anathemas against NATO.
I'm a long-time Hedgie, I loved his writing back in college, and when I got to see him speak in person I thought he was an even better preacher than he was a writer, just absolutely brilliant. Two decades later though he's gone well and truly off the deep-end. I'm not sure if this is because of Russian money, or if it's because his brain broke from staring too long directly into the abyss of American Moloch. In any case I think he would benefit from touching grass, maybe getting a job where he can use his hands, maybe getting some sunlight.
posted by Balna Watya at 9:54 AM on January 24 [14 favorites]
In the interview with Jeff Sharlet, Hedges is fine and Ukraine/Russia does not really come up. In Substack and other places, Hedges writes screed after screed decrying any American/Western attempt to help Ukraine. If pressed he will admit that Russia is to blame for actually, you know, invading Ukraine and brutalizing its population, and then he will go right back to writing 10,000 word long anathemas against NATO.
I'm a long-time Hedgie, I loved his writing back in college, and when I got to see him speak in person I thought he was an even better preacher than he was a writer, just absolutely brilliant. Two decades later though he's gone well and truly off the deep-end. I'm not sure if this is because of Russian money, or if it's because his brain broke from staring too long directly into the abyss of American Moloch. In any case I think he would benefit from touching grass, maybe getting a job where he can use his hands, maybe getting some sunlight.
posted by Balna Watya at 9:54 AM on January 24 [14 favorites]
I'm not intimate enough with her political history, sorry, but has she not racked enough credits while the Governor of SC, and at the UN, to show her competence, and the cut of her conservative jib? Has she not sipped the Koolaid, and recited most of the MAGA catechisms on the campaign trail to be trusted as a true believer, if not fully a devout unquestioning adherent?
...
Well, policy-wise, is she not reasonably close enough to Trump on the big GOP policy stuff? So you're still getting the solid conservative package, with some grownup smarts, competence, credibility on the world stage, a much better chance with women, college-educated conservatives, moderates, independents, and even disaffected centrist Dems.
In a word, no?
I don't mean to crap on your ideas, honestly, because we ARE on the same side here. We are in full agreement that Haley would be a much better GOP candidate than Trump for many, many reasons, and while a Haley presidency would be a nightmare, it would be a trifle compared to the hellstorm that would be Trump II: The Reckoning.
I'm looking at the example of Hannah and her father, right above your post. Hannah and Steve's level of engagement with the process is both laudable and unusual. I mean, I could quibble about Steve's thought process; he's completely right that Trump's term brought on the largest debt rocket in history, for instance, but he's still on board with a candidate and a party who would gladly cut MORE taxes given the slightest opportunity, and have a long track record demonstrating that. But he's thinking critically, he's attending events, he's doing his homework, and he's making an informed decision with his daughter's help.
That is REALLY unusual. And not just among Republicans.
Yes, Nikki Haley is a card-carrying Republican who wielded the usual GOP power loadout (pro-life, anti-migrant, slash taxes, voter ID, death penalty, Axis of Evil) during her tenures. But all of the other In Case Of Stroke Break Glass candidates were also card-carrying conservatives, too, and it did them no good. Haley is wobbly by True Believer standards on immigration (she wouldn't support religion-based bans like Trump would), on LGBT+ issues (i.e. she doesn't toss and turn at night consumed by fear and anger that LGBT+s exist), the Confederate Flag (a lot of people still hold it against her that she okayed taking that down from the state Capital). She hasn't done anything that would make the average person step back and take notice, for better or worse...
...and that's the problem. She's up against a human typhoon, and her main selling point is "I'm Trumpish without the name-calling and the crimes and the scandals." Which is nice, but how is that different from the other candidates previously rejected by the base?
She needs reasons, big and loud and colorful, for people to vote FOR her rather than AGAINST Trump. Being Not-Trump worked fine for Biden, since he had Democratic votes backing him at that level, but Haley is in a bind because she's picking votes out of a Republican-only bin that's heavily pro-Trump, and has had their Mirror Universe Media screaming for four years that Trump's second term was stolen from him, he's the rightful President, Biden is treasonous, Biden runs a crime syndicate, a strong and powerful authority is needed to destroy the Deep State once and for all and Trump is the One Man Strong Enough To Do It.
Jello Biafra's First Law of Rioting also applies here -- there's more of us, but who goes first? There are many, many Republicans who are tired of Trump's bullshit and would love to see him vanish. The vast, vast majority of them are terrified of saying so out loud, much less publically supporting Trump's opponents for fear of going on Trump and his base's shitlist immediately and irrevocably. Trump having wiped DeSantis away like a momentarily unpleasant aroma does nothing to make those people secure that Haley can succeed where he failed.
She needs a huge wave of Hannah and Steve Kesselrings to emerge. And I'm saying that, I'm sorry, but amidst that voter base there just aren't enough of those to matter.
posted by delfin at 10:08 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
...
Well, policy-wise, is she not reasonably close enough to Trump on the big GOP policy stuff? So you're still getting the solid conservative package, with some grownup smarts, competence, credibility on the world stage, a much better chance with women, college-educated conservatives, moderates, independents, and even disaffected centrist Dems.
In a word, no?
I don't mean to crap on your ideas, honestly, because we ARE on the same side here. We are in full agreement that Haley would be a much better GOP candidate than Trump for many, many reasons, and while a Haley presidency would be a nightmare, it would be a trifle compared to the hellstorm that would be Trump II: The Reckoning.
I'm looking at the example of Hannah and her father, right above your post. Hannah and Steve's level of engagement with the process is both laudable and unusual. I mean, I could quibble about Steve's thought process; he's completely right that Trump's term brought on the largest debt rocket in history, for instance, but he's still on board with a candidate and a party who would gladly cut MORE taxes given the slightest opportunity, and have a long track record demonstrating that. But he's thinking critically, he's attending events, he's doing his homework, and he's making an informed decision with his daughter's help.
That is REALLY unusual. And not just among Republicans.
Yes, Nikki Haley is a card-carrying Republican who wielded the usual GOP power loadout (pro-life, anti-migrant, slash taxes, voter ID, death penalty, Axis of Evil) during her tenures. But all of the other In Case Of Stroke Break Glass candidates were also card-carrying conservatives, too, and it did them no good. Haley is wobbly by True Believer standards on immigration (she wouldn't support religion-based bans like Trump would), on LGBT+ issues (i.e. she doesn't toss and turn at night consumed by fear and anger that LGBT+s exist), the Confederate Flag (a lot of people still hold it against her that she okayed taking that down from the state Capital). She hasn't done anything that would make the average person step back and take notice, for better or worse...
...and that's the problem. She's up against a human typhoon, and her main selling point is "I'm Trumpish without the name-calling and the crimes and the scandals." Which is nice, but how is that different from the other candidates previously rejected by the base?
She needs reasons, big and loud and colorful, for people to vote FOR her rather than AGAINST Trump. Being Not-Trump worked fine for Biden, since he had Democratic votes backing him at that level, but Haley is in a bind because she's picking votes out of a Republican-only bin that's heavily pro-Trump, and has had their Mirror Universe Media screaming for four years that Trump's second term was stolen from him, he's the rightful President, Biden is treasonous, Biden runs a crime syndicate, a strong and powerful authority is needed to destroy the Deep State once and for all and Trump is the One Man Strong Enough To Do It.
Jello Biafra's First Law of Rioting also applies here -- there's more of us, but who goes first? There are many, many Republicans who are tired of Trump's bullshit and would love to see him vanish. The vast, vast majority of them are terrified of saying so out loud, much less publically supporting Trump's opponents for fear of going on Trump and his base's shitlist immediately and irrevocably. Trump having wiped DeSantis away like a momentarily unpleasant aroma does nothing to make those people secure that Haley can succeed where he failed.
She needs a huge wave of Hannah and Steve Kesselrings to emerge. And I'm saying that, I'm sorry, but amidst that voter base there just aren't enough of those to matter.
posted by delfin at 10:08 AM on January 24 [3 favorites]
Besides, all that thinking is based on the idea that the Republican Powers That Be want to get rid of Trump.
There does not appear to be any evidence in support of that position. Back in 2016 you heard some concern from the money branch of the Republican Party but Trump's Presidency didn't tank the stock market, his insane rants and autocratic action didn't hurt business, so they're fine with him now.
Maybe they don't WANT Trump, but they don't NOT want Trump. The Republican Powers That Be seem to be more or less Trump neutral at best and given his ability to engage and energize voters they'd not been able to reach previously they probably like him. Not personally, not because they love chaos and senile Presidents ranting and raving, but because they want what works.
Say what you will about Trump, but if you're a Republican Trump works. Ignore all that potential backlash if they oppose him, look at what they gain by being, at worst, neutral: they gain Trump and his ability to energize his base.
posted by sotonohito at 10:26 AM on January 24 [9 favorites]
There does not appear to be any evidence in support of that position. Back in 2016 you heard some concern from the money branch of the Republican Party but Trump's Presidency didn't tank the stock market, his insane rants and autocratic action didn't hurt business, so they're fine with him now.
Maybe they don't WANT Trump, but they don't NOT want Trump. The Republican Powers That Be seem to be more or less Trump neutral at best and given his ability to engage and energize voters they'd not been able to reach previously they probably like him. Not personally, not because they love chaos and senile Presidents ranting and raving, but because they want what works.
Say what you will about Trump, but if you're a Republican Trump works. Ignore all that potential backlash if they oppose him, look at what they gain by being, at worst, neutral: they gain Trump and his ability to energize his base.
posted by sotonohito at 10:26 AM on January 24 [9 favorites]
Thx delfin. If, by some miracle, Trump's numbers start to sink in a Biden matchup, would electability ("oh oh. Trump might lose against Biden") become a critical factor to the GOP establishment?
posted by Artful Codger at 10:30 AM on January 24
posted by Artful Codger at 10:30 AM on January 24
As for soft civil war and Texas, I live in Texas and I agree with the people saying there's no way the Supreme Court's ruling will mean anything at all to Abbott and his fellow Republicans. They're all in on the idea that Federal == evil and they see opposing Federal anything as good.
And I have to say, I'm not even slightly hopeful that Biden will pull an LBJ and send the military force necessary to actually stop the Republicn intransgience. We saw this when the Beaureau of Land Management backed down and surrendered to the Bundys.
Cis het white Christian right wing men have the privilige of pulling guns on Federal agents and getting those agents to leave. Not just to difuse the immediate situation and then deal with them after the standoff is over, but just leave and never come back and let them keep breaking the law.
With that sort of history, why shouldn't they keep up the habit of using guns to drive off Feds they don't like?
I also agree that Abbott et al are pushing hard for stochastic terrorism. I suspect it's not exactly intentional and some sort of evil overlord stroking thier long hair white cat type plan, but hey have to know that pushing the narrative they are will result in violence.
And when some cis het White Chrisitan right wing man shoots a dark skinned person on suspicion of that perosn being an illegal immigrant I'm going to bet that the state of Texas will pull out the Zimmerman handbook. They won't investigtae until weeks later so as to allow all evidence to be destroyed, they will decline to prosecute or even investigate until and unless compelled to by mass protests, and if they are forced to actually press charges they'll softball it, and when it goes to trial the prosecutor will sabotage thier own case in order to get the white terrorist an acquittal.
I have no idea how this will sort out, but it's looking like a state/federal power showdown in an election year and the Democrats have not shown a whole lot of spine and willingness to actually use power. Biden isn't LBJ.
posted by sotonohito at 10:43 AM on January 24 [8 favorites]
And I have to say, I'm not even slightly hopeful that Biden will pull an LBJ and send the military force necessary to actually stop the Republicn intransgience. We saw this when the Beaureau of Land Management backed down and surrendered to the Bundys.
Cis het white Christian right wing men have the privilige of pulling guns on Federal agents and getting those agents to leave. Not just to difuse the immediate situation and then deal with them after the standoff is over, but just leave and never come back and let them keep breaking the law.
With that sort of history, why shouldn't they keep up the habit of using guns to drive off Feds they don't like?
I also agree that Abbott et al are pushing hard for stochastic terrorism. I suspect it's not exactly intentional and some sort of evil overlord stroking thier long hair white cat type plan, but hey have to know that pushing the narrative they are will result in violence.
And when some cis het White Chrisitan right wing man shoots a dark skinned person on suspicion of that perosn being an illegal immigrant I'm going to bet that the state of Texas will pull out the Zimmerman handbook. They won't investigtae until weeks later so as to allow all evidence to be destroyed, they will decline to prosecute or even investigate until and unless compelled to by mass protests, and if they are forced to actually press charges they'll softball it, and when it goes to trial the prosecutor will sabotage thier own case in order to get the white terrorist an acquittal.
I have no idea how this will sort out, but it's looking like a state/federal power showdown in an election year and the Democrats have not shown a whole lot of spine and willingness to actually use power. Biden isn't LBJ.
posted by sotonohito at 10:43 AM on January 24 [8 favorites]
I know we have a lot of mass shootings and many of them are explicitly white supremacist and it's hard to keep track of them all, but the Texas white supremacists already inspired one "lone wolf" attack: Man who killed 23 people in Texas Walmart shooting targeting Latinos sentenced to 90 life terms by federal judge
posted by hydropsyche at 11:06 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
posted by hydropsyche at 11:06 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
He's going to call Chris Christie a fat pig. He's going to call Nikki a birdbrain. I don't want my president to be like that.
Oh, my sweet summer child, you give him entirely too much credit. He's going to call Chris Christie a fat pig and then also call Nikki Haley a fat pig, because he is a horrible void of misogynistic disgust.
posted by jackbishop at 11:36 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
Oh, my sweet summer child, you give him entirely too much credit. He's going to call Chris Christie a fat pig and then also call Nikki Haley a fat pig, because he is a horrible void of misogynistic disgust.
posted by jackbishop at 11:36 AM on January 24 [1 favorite]
And if he gets elected by doing it? Who's gonna make him pay? How? Frankly, who's gonna make him not throw her in supermax for treason for the rest of her life?He'd just say "WRONG", "NEVER HAPPENED", "DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO SHE IS"The thing is, every time he does that, E. Jean Carroll has a jury give her more of his money for defamation.
posted by Flunkie at 11:49 AM on January 24 [2 favorites]
We saw this when the Beaureau of Land Management backed down and surrendered to the Bundys.
Cis het white Christian right wing men have the privilige of pulling guns on Federal agents and getting those agents to leave. Not just to difuse the immediate situation and then deal with them after the standoff is over, but just leave and never come back and let them keep breaking the law.
Wait, no. Cliven Bundy actually was later arrested. In Portland in 2016.
Privilege certainly worked in his favor. But he was ultimately arrested, (rightly) denied bail due to being a flight risk and IIRC spent ~2 years in jail while being tried. The case was ultimately dismissed due to documents being withheld from the defense.
It isn't the desired outcome. Or the one he deserved. Again, privilege. But they didn't just kick rocks, leave and never go back. As I understand it, the US Attorney's Office fucked up the prosecution. (I stand to be corrected by someone more familiar with the law or the case.)
But by 2018 nobody cared about the Bundy bunch anymore so it didn't really get a lot of follow-on in the news.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:05 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
Cis het white Christian right wing men have the privilige of pulling guns on Federal agents and getting those agents to leave. Not just to difuse the immediate situation and then deal with them after the standoff is over, but just leave and never come back and let them keep breaking the law.
Wait, no. Cliven Bundy actually was later arrested. In Portland in 2016.
Privilege certainly worked in his favor. But he was ultimately arrested, (rightly) denied bail due to being a flight risk and IIRC spent ~2 years in jail while being tried. The case was ultimately dismissed due to documents being withheld from the defense.
It isn't the desired outcome. Or the one he deserved. Again, privilege. But they didn't just kick rocks, leave and never go back. As I understand it, the US Attorney's Office fucked up the prosecution. (I stand to be corrected by someone more familiar with the law or the case.)
But by 2018 nobody cared about the Bundy bunch anymore so it didn't really get a lot of follow-on in the news.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:05 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
Nobody wants another Waco so the Feds treat right wing terrorists with kid gloves.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:09 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:09 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
Nobody wants another Waco so the Feds treat right wing terrorists with kid gloves.
I think what no one wants is another Oklahoma City.
What's now in question is whether or not continued use of the kid gloves is going to have any meaningful prophylaxis.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:15 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]
I think what no one wants is another Oklahoma City.
What's now in question is whether or not continued use of the kid gloves is going to have any meaningful prophylaxis.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:15 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]
I think a lot of people want another Oklahoma City, unfortunately.
posted by Flunkie at 12:24 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
posted by Flunkie at 12:24 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
I think what no one wants is another Oklahoma City.
??? OKC was nothing like Waco or the BLM standoff. The whole point of my statement is that the BLM standoff was a siege much like Waco and nobody was going to let it end like another Waco so instead we get Feds waiting people out instead of going in like fucking Rambo.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:27 PM on January 24
??? OKC was nothing like Waco or the BLM standoff. The whole point of my statement is that the BLM standoff was a siege much like Waco and nobody was going to let it end like another Waco so instead we get Feds waiting people out instead of going in like fucking Rambo.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 12:27 PM on January 24
??? OKC was nothing like Waco or the BLM standoff.I believe the point was that the Oklahoma City bombing was motivated, in large part, by the Waco siege.
posted by Flunkie at 12:29 PM on January 24 [4 favorites]
I believe the point was that the Oklahoma City bombing was motivated, in large part, by the Waco siege.
Yes
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:31 PM on January 24
Yes
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:31 PM on January 24
Also by Ruby Ridge.
posted by suelac at 1:21 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac at 1:21 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
I believe the point was that the Oklahoma City bombing was motivated, in large part, by the Waco siege.
So we coddle domestic terrorists and make everyone take off their shoes on airplanes. Way to go Feds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:02 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
So we coddle domestic terrorists and make everyone take off their shoes on airplanes. Way to go Feds.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:02 PM on January 24 [2 favorites]
So we coddle domestic terrorists and make everyone take off their shoes on airplanes. Way to go Feds.
Yes. Well, sort of. Certainly no one coddled those domestic terrorists. McVeigh was executed. Nichols has spent most of the last 30 years, and will spend all of his remaining years, at what is arguably the most brutal prison the US has on offer.
Any of these "lone wolf" right-wing mass shooters you care to name is either dead or spending the rest of their life in prison as well.
I'm not saying "yay team, good game, everybody go home." It's just the defeatist-sounding "these fascists never face any consequences" tone doesn't reflect reality. Nazis are being punched. Fascists are getting a bloody lip and spending time in prison. TFG did lose in 2020 and as nauseating as it is to go through another election cycle does stand a good chance of losing again in 2024. (Well, technically losing a 3rd time if you go by the popular vote.)
No, it isn't enough. I'm not saying it is. Don't let up. But for anyone starting to spiral because it all seems hopeless, go outside and touch grass. Yes, in some states more than others it's bad. But it isn't some inevitable doomed slide into fascism. They've lost a bunch. They can very much continue to lose.
If things go south in 2024 I'll be on the doom train too. But until then, when they come your way, just take the win.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 2:46 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
Yes. Well, sort of. Certainly no one coddled those domestic terrorists. McVeigh was executed. Nichols has spent most of the last 30 years, and will spend all of his remaining years, at what is arguably the most brutal prison the US has on offer.
Any of these "lone wolf" right-wing mass shooters you care to name is either dead or spending the rest of their life in prison as well.
I'm not saying "yay team, good game, everybody go home." It's just the defeatist-sounding "these fascists never face any consequences" tone doesn't reflect reality. Nazis are being punched. Fascists are getting a bloody lip and spending time in prison. TFG did lose in 2020 and as nauseating as it is to go through another election cycle does stand a good chance of losing again in 2024. (Well, technically losing a 3rd time if you go by the popular vote.)
No, it isn't enough. I'm not saying it is. Don't let up. But for anyone starting to spiral because it all seems hopeless, go outside and touch grass. Yes, in some states more than others it's bad. But it isn't some inevitable doomed slide into fascism. They've lost a bunch. They can very much continue to lose.
If things go south in 2024 I'll be on the doom train too. But until then, when they come your way, just take the win.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 2:46 PM on January 24 [12 favorites]
Haley is wobbly by True Believer ... on LGBT+ issues (i.e. she doesn't toss and turn at night consumed by fear and anger that LGBT+s exist)it would be nice to not undersell the fact that she's as much of a true believe on anti-trans stuff as the rest of the gop (you know, the often dismissed t part of the lgbt); the only reason her name hasn't been attached to more of the bills is because she hasn't been in office.
She hasn't done anything that would make the average person step back and take notice, for better or worse...i mean, i guess that part's at least true, there are a lot of minority groups where bad things happen to that the average person would notice
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:19 PM on January 24 [3 favorites]
So we coddle domestic terrorists
I mean, I don’t know, maybe it’s just me and my wacky pinko ways, but I’m pretty comfortable saying that serving a bench warrant shouldn’t entail killing someone’s dog, wife, and 14 year old kid, and I don’t think failing to do that is “coddling domestic terrorists.” I’m just weird that way I guess.
posted by corb at 3:41 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
I mean, I don’t know, maybe it’s just me and my wacky pinko ways, but I’m pretty comfortable saying that serving a bench warrant shouldn’t entail killing someone’s dog, wife, and 14 year old kid, and I don’t think failing to do that is “coddling domestic terrorists.” I’m just weird that way I guess.
posted by corb at 3:41 PM on January 24 [5 favorites]
it would be nice to not undersell the fact that she's as much of a true believe on anti-trans stuff as the rest of the gop (you know, the often dismissed t part of the lgbt); the only reason her name hasn't been attached to more of the bills is because she hasn't been in office.
One of the only good things that I would say about Haley is that when she was in office and the SC Senate proposed an anti-trans bill, adopting the bathroom-police stance of its northern cousin HB2 as a step in that direction, Haley openly dismissed the need for it:
"...I haven’t heard anything that’s come to my office. So when I look at South Carolina, we look at our situations, we’re not hearing of anybody’s religious liberties that are being violated, and we’re, again, not hearing any citizens that feel like they are being violated in terms of freedoms.”
Which is the equivalent of clearing a two-inch curb, of course. She doesn't get a cookie just because she's not an OPEN bigot. But she had the opportunity to pander to a rather large religious-bigot community in South Carolina, and chose not to.
Right now, under different leadership, South Carolina is faring rather differently.
posted by delfin at 4:22 PM on January 24
One of the only good things that I would say about Haley is that when she was in office and the SC Senate proposed an anti-trans bill, adopting the bathroom-police stance of its northern cousin HB2 as a step in that direction, Haley openly dismissed the need for it:
"...I haven’t heard anything that’s come to my office. So when I look at South Carolina, we look at our situations, we’re not hearing of anybody’s religious liberties that are being violated, and we’re, again, not hearing any citizens that feel like they are being violated in terms of freedoms.”
Which is the equivalent of clearing a two-inch curb, of course. She doesn't get a cookie just because she's not an OPEN bigot. But she had the opportunity to pander to a rather large religious-bigot community in South Carolina, and chose not to.
Right now, under different leadership, South Carolina is faring rather differently.
posted by delfin at 4:22 PM on January 24
Steve Kesselring, Nikki Haley Supporter: she talked about how much debt we actually acquired, like the largest debt that — of any sitting president. And I started thinking about like, what do I want to leave for my daughter? What do I want to do for her future?
So like, whatever changed this man's mind...whatever.
But holy hell does this kind of thing make me want to scream. Federal debt just isn't the same as personal or corporate debt. I mean, wouldn't your outlook on taking out loans be significantly different if you literally owned a US dollar printing press and were legally allowed to print out legitimate $100 bills?
Money and banking was one of the most difficult classes I took in getting my finance degree. The textbook was written by a member of the Fed's FMOC and there are a lot of parts that voters don't want to hear. But I feel like pointing out that the Federal government owns the printing press for the kind of money it takes to purchase Federal debt is at least a pretty easy way to illustrate how the Federal budget is not AT ALL like your home budget and the federal debt is not at all like the average person's mortgage and auto loan and credit card debt and student loan debt, etc.
It makes me want to scream that the idea that the Federal debt is at all a debt we're leaving to our children make any kind of sense.
Worry more about America's stability being the major reason for it's use as the world's trade currency and how that fact, more than anything else, is the key to US hegemony. Demand for the US dollar as a medium of exchange is the main driver of the US's ability to extend the Federal debt.
Thanks for hanging with me there and I'm sorry I got so riled up. This hill is very important to me.
/derail
posted by VTX at 5:22 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
So like, whatever changed this man's mind...whatever.
But holy hell does this kind of thing make me want to scream. Federal debt just isn't the same as personal or corporate debt. I mean, wouldn't your outlook on taking out loans be significantly different if you literally owned a US dollar printing press and were legally allowed to print out legitimate $100 bills?
Money and banking was one of the most difficult classes I took in getting my finance degree. The textbook was written by a member of the Fed's FMOC and there are a lot of parts that voters don't want to hear. But I feel like pointing out that the Federal government owns the printing press for the kind of money it takes to purchase Federal debt is at least a pretty easy way to illustrate how the Federal budget is not AT ALL like your home budget and the federal debt is not at all like the average person's mortgage and auto loan and credit card debt and student loan debt, etc.
It makes me want to scream that the idea that the Federal debt is at all a debt we're leaving to our children make any kind of sense.
Worry more about America's stability being the major reason for it's use as the world's trade currency and how that fact, more than anything else, is the key to US hegemony. Demand for the US dollar as a medium of exchange is the main driver of the US's ability to extend the Federal debt.
Thanks for hanging with me there and I'm sorry I got so riled up. This hill is very important to me.
/derail
posted by VTX at 5:22 PM on January 24 [11 favorites]
It makes me want to scream that the idea that the Federal debt is at all a debt we're leaving to our children make any kind of sense.
It's entirely outside the scope of this particular FPP, but Japan's a living example of how MMT is a real thing and not smoke and mirrors.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
It's entirely outside the scope of this particular FPP, but Japan's a living example of how MMT is a real thing and not smoke and mirrors.
posted by hippybear at 6:12 PM on January 24 [1 favorite]
Did Hedges actually lie or spread propaganda in support of Putin or the Ukraine invasion?
Yes, his biggest contribution is to push the Kremlin line that Putin was forced to invade Ukraine by the West/NATO, which he does over and over. In the Democracy Now interview linked by another poster above, he drops this lie:
"I certainly think that Putin’s complaints about the expansion of NATO have a great deal of credibility. It’s just a historical fact that the leaders of the West lied to Gorbachev, lied to Yeltsin and lied to Putin. That’s just historically true."
Nobody in NATO made promises to Putin or Gorbachev, even though Russian agents keep pushing this line.
In another blog article, he claims:
"The war in Ukraine, another bungled attempt to reassert U.S. global hegemony, fits this pattern."
He claims he's "against" the invasion, but he's against it because according to him it's a US-lead war. That happens to line up precisely with the Kremlin's propaganda that Ukrainians are "brothers" of Russia that got brainwashed into aligning themselves with the US (but in reality are Russian territorial objects).
posted by UN at 1:23 AM on January 25 [11 favorites]
Yes, his biggest contribution is to push the Kremlin line that Putin was forced to invade Ukraine by the West/NATO, which he does over and over. In the Democracy Now interview linked by another poster above, he drops this lie:
"I certainly think that Putin’s complaints about the expansion of NATO have a great deal of credibility. It’s just a historical fact that the leaders of the West lied to Gorbachev, lied to Yeltsin and lied to Putin. That’s just historically true."
Nobody in NATO made promises to Putin or Gorbachev, even though Russian agents keep pushing this line.
In another blog article, he claims:
"The war in Ukraine, another bungled attempt to reassert U.S. global hegemony, fits this pattern."
He claims he's "against" the invasion, but he's against it because according to him it's a US-lead war. That happens to line up precisely with the Kremlin's propaganda that Ukrainians are "brothers" of Russia that got brainwashed into aligning themselves with the US (but in reality are Russian territorial objects).
posted by UN at 1:23 AM on January 25 [11 favorites]
Nobody in NATO made promises to Putin or Gorbachev
The truth value of that depends fairly sensitively on what "in NATO" means.
It is certainly the case that non-enlargement has never been official NATO policy:
It should be no surprise to find Putin using the claim that Russia was given assurances about NATO not expanding eastward as propaganda designed to distract from the manifest obviousness of his having yet again launched an utterly indefensible invasion to big up his domestic strongman image, but that claim in and of itself is supported by documentary evidence rather than being a cut-and-dried falsehood:
The truth value of that depends fairly sensitively on what "in NATO" means.
It is certainly the case that non-enlargement has never been official NATO policy:
Myth: NATO promised Russia it would not expand after the Cold War.However, the paragraph following that one
Fact: Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949. This has never changed. No treaty signed by NATO Allies and Russia included provisions on NATO membership. Decisions on NATO membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. Russia does not have a veto.
The idea of NATO enlargement beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed until 1991. Mikhail Gorbachev said in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up either."is at best a careful bit of lawyerly weaselling and at worst a flat lie.
It should be no surprise to find Putin using the claim that Russia was given assurances about NATO not expanding eastward as propaganda designed to distract from the manifest obviousness of his having yet again launched an utterly indefensible invasion to big up his domestic strongman image, but that claim in and of itself is supported by documentary evidence rather than being a cut-and-dried falsehood:
Washington D.C., December 12, 2017 – U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu).posted by flabdablet at 5:33 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]
The documents show that multiple national leaders were considering and rejecting Central and Eastern European membership in NATO as of early 1990 and through 1991, that discussions of NATO in the context of German unification negotiations in 1990 were not at all narrowly limited to the status of East German territory, and that subsequent Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion were founded in written contemporaneous memcons and telcons at the highest levels.
The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”
President George H.W. Bush had assured Gorbachev during the Malta summit in December 1989 that the U.S. would not take advantage (“I have not jumped up and down on the Berlin Wall”) of the revolutions in Eastern Europe to harm Soviet interests; but neither Bush nor Gorbachev at that point (or for that matter, West German Chancellor Helmut Kohl) expected so soon the collapse of East Germany or the speed of German unification.
The first concrete assurances by Western leaders on NATO began on January 31, 1990, when West German Foreign Minister Hans-Dietrich Genscher opened the bidding with a major public speech at Tutzing, in Bavaria, on German unification. The U.S. Embassy in Bonn (see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.
...
It's cut-and-dry. Russian "feeling mislead" is not the same as NATO members making or breaking promises, treaties, etc.
Politicians in the West discussing whether or not Poland and the Baltics should join NATO or not has absolutely nothing to do with "misleading" the Soviet Union. It's a clever obfuscation to even mention it in the same breath — and it does make for good propaganda.
Eastern Europe is not Russia's imperial playground. Russia has zero say in what alliances its neighbors join. Hedges can claim it's the USA who's to blame for the Ukraine war all he wants but it's still a lie.
It'll be interesting to see if Trump manages to pull the US out of NATO if he gets elected though.
posted by UN at 7:01 AM on January 25 [8 favorites]
Politicians in the West discussing whether or not Poland and the Baltics should join NATO or not has absolutely nothing to do with "misleading" the Soviet Union. It's a clever obfuscation to even mention it in the same breath — and it does make for good propaganda.
Eastern Europe is not Russia's imperial playground. Russia has zero say in what alliances its neighbors join. Hedges can claim it's the USA who's to blame for the Ukraine war all he wants but it's still a lie.
It'll be interesting to see if Trump manages to pull the US out of NATO if he gets elected though.
posted by UN at 7:01 AM on January 25 [8 favorites]
promises, treaties, etc
is some superb lawyerly weaselling; well played.
posted by flabdablet at 7:19 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
is some superb lawyerly weaselling; well played.
posted by flabdablet at 7:19 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
We promised the USSR, right? Which... no longer exists. I'm not sure why promises made to a non-existent country should be considered binding?
posted by joannemerriam at 7:24 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]
posted by joannemerriam at 7:24 AM on January 25 [2 favorites]
serving a bench warrant shouldn’t entail killing someone’s dog, wife, and 14 year old kid, and I don’t think failing to do that is “coddling domestic terrorists.” I’m just weird that way I guess.
Hey the police kill so many people serving warrants for less that you are going to have to be more specific about what case you are referencing.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:25 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
Hey the police kill so many people serving warrants for less that you are going to have to be more specific about what case you are referencing.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:25 AM on January 25 [3 favorites]
I really don't care if Putin was lied to. That guy doesn't abide by any agreement made with him and lies constantly.
Go ahead and lie right back to him. He deserves no respect for anything ever. He's only going to held to any agreement as much as he is forced to. Fuck that guy break every promise made to him until he changes his behavior. Putin is only going to use them to manipulate things to his advantage as best he can.
Hey! Wait a second. This thread isn't even about NATO or Russia!
posted by VTX at 7:33 AM on January 25 [6 favorites]
Go ahead and lie right back to him. He deserves no respect for anything ever. He's only going to held to any agreement as much as he is forced to. Fuck that guy break every promise made to him until he changes his behavior. Putin is only going to use them to manipulate things to his advantage as best he can.
Hey! Wait a second. This thread isn't even about NATO or Russia!
posted by VTX at 7:33 AM on January 25 [6 favorites]
And the discussion in the youtube video doesn't have anything to do with Russia either, and the ultimate takeaway is for democrats and others against 'christian fascists' to keep doing the work, voting, protesting, and fighting. It's actually quite milquetoast.
I think that's the problem with modern philosophy and thinkers. For every decent idea a person has they also must believe something completely outrageous.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:40 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
I think that's the problem with modern philosophy and thinkers. For every decent idea a person has they also must believe something completely outrageous.
posted by The_Vegetables at 7:40 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
Fuck that guy break every promise made to him
Importantly, the broken promises documented in the material I linked above were made to Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not to Putin, whose whole L'État, c'est moi schtick is and always has been purest horseshit.
posted by flabdablet at 7:57 AM on January 25 [6 favorites]
Importantly, the broken promises documented in the material I linked above were made to Gorbachev and Yeltsin, not to Putin, whose whole L'État, c'est moi schtick is and always has been purest horseshit.
posted by flabdablet at 7:57 AM on January 25 [6 favorites]
Thirty years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia is still peddling the old myth of Western betrayal of Russia by expanding NATO eastward after the end of the Cold War. Both Vladimir Putin and his Foreign Minister, Sergei Lavrov have used this myth to demand formal Western security guarantees and that NATO rules out future membership for Ukraine and other ex-Soviet republics. Kristina Spohr explains why this narrative is based on not only a misinterpretation of the treaty that reunified Germany, but also a misunderstanding of the diplomatic process that led to it.
Exposing the myth of Western betrayal of Russia over NATO’s eastern enlargement
posted by UN at 1:30 AM on January 26 [3 favorites]
Exposing the myth of Western betrayal of Russia over NATO’s eastern enlargement
posted by UN at 1:30 AM on January 26 [3 favorites]
Hey! Wait a second. This thread isn't even about NATO or Russia!
It is now! I am kidding, of course. But, nonetheless, fascists are working with each other around the world to destroy democracy, which is not unrelated here. This is a "What does the Spanish Civil War have to do with Benito Mussolini anyway?" situation. It has a lot to do with it. Someone writing for a 1930s fascist party paper in Italy commenting about the Spanish Civil War would be, I'd hope we all agree, inherently untrustworthy. It’s not something to just paper over as if it was irrelevant to that writer’s reporting.
posted by UN at 2:02 AM on January 26 [9 favorites]
It is now! I am kidding, of course. But, nonetheless, fascists are working with each other around the world to destroy democracy, which is not unrelated here. This is a "What does the Spanish Civil War have to do with Benito Mussolini anyway?" situation. It has a lot to do with it. Someone writing for a 1930s fascist party paper in Italy commenting about the Spanish Civil War would be, I'd hope we all agree, inherently untrustworthy. It’s not something to just paper over as if it was irrelevant to that writer’s reporting.
posted by UN at 2:02 AM on January 26 [9 favorites]
There's a good analysis here on why lying is so useful to Trump. In particular:
By requiring subordinates to speak untruths, a leader can undercut their independent standing. That makes those individuals grow more dependent on the leader.posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:42 AM on January 26 [9 favorites]
Another reason for promoting lying is what economists sometimes call loyalty filters. If you want to ascertain if someone is truly loyal to you, ask them to do something outrageous or stupid. If they balk, then you know right away they aren't fully with you.
From this opinion piece piece on CNN:
posted by Artful Codger at 8:59 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
Though some analysts were surprised by his decision [to slag Haley in his NH win speech] and noted that he might have goaded Haley into continuing to run, they missed the point. The point was to do and say things that drew attention to him, that created 24 hours of social media conversation about Trump, that took attention from everyone else on the playing field.If you can't keep him out of the public eye, then you have to, as much as possible, make sure that what the public always sees is a mess. Get this guy on his back foot, and keep him there. When his devotees see him on TV, all smug and gloating, it just cements them more firmly to him. Winning! Instead, they have to see Trump ALWAYS fuming, always pissed about something (the more petty, the better), defensive, agitated to incoherence, and making mistakes. His supporters must be made to feel unease and growing discomfort at his every media appearance. He needs to be goaded more in every press scrum. The more that happens while there's a challenger in the primaries, the better. Once he's anointed the nominee, the GOP will circle the wagons around him and it will be that much harder to get to him. But not impossible.
Trump, who lives by the maxim that all publicity is good publicity, will no doubt create similar obstacles for Biden in communicating his message and securing national attention as the race heats up.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:59 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
It might be time to expose Trump's base as being base. Democrats have nothing to lose because none of them have voted that way in a generation. Imagine the irony of losing a majority polite nation because the majority was too polite to frame the opposition as crass, crude and disreputable.
posted by Brian B. at 10:29 AM on January 26
posted by Brian B. at 10:29 AM on January 26
It might be time to expose Trump's base as being base.
Beg pardon? It was tried, and backfired badly. You simply cannot vilify the voters that you need to sway.
Concentrate on Trump. Just Trump. Relentless pressure. Make his wheels fall off.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:10 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
Beg pardon? It was tried, and backfired badly. You simply cannot vilify the voters that you need to sway.
Concentrate on Trump. Just Trump. Relentless pressure. Make his wheels fall off.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:10 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
It was tried, and backfired badly.
Debatable. It was certainly misfired (as a meaningless college word), and by someone who thought that shaming their exemplar groper at the last minute would work too. The right blames people everyday as evil, the correct response is that they are just...misinformed? Too weak obviously, and no response is an admission.
posted by Brian B. at 11:20 AM on January 26 [1 favorite]
Debatable. It was certainly misfired (as a meaningless college word), and by someone who thought that shaming their exemplar groper at the last minute would work too. The right blames people everyday as evil, the correct response is that they are just...misinformed? Too weak obviously, and no response is an admission.
posted by Brian B. at 11:20 AM on January 26 [1 favorite]
Someone somewhere, maybe here, said a few months back to focus on the stakes. The thing that comes to mind about the border is to start focusing on $12 lettuce and that farm owners are as responsible as anybody for borders remaining as open as they are. I don't think the border is a problem at all, but those who want to seal it up should have to contend with the consequences in advance. In public, preferably.
posted by rhizome at 11:47 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:47 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
It misfired nearly a decade ago, when most of America only knew him as that rich guy who said, "You're fired!" on TV, immediately following the US' first Black president (the existence of which made a big chunk of Americans lose their goddamn minds), up against a woman ("first woman President" also made a bunch of Americans lose their goddamn minds) who had spent pretty much her entire adult life being viciously slandered by conservatives with the help of "both sides" mainstream media. Not really a useful guideline for this election, I don't think.
posted by soundguy99 at 11:48 AM on January 26 [4 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 11:48 AM on January 26 [4 favorites]
It makes perfect sense to attack the -isms and movements connected with Trump. By all means, draw attention to the fact that TFG espouses/embraces/ encourages fascism, authoritarianism, racism, xenophobia, etc etc. And to point out specific leaders and figureheads for these deplorable things that Trump has associated with, dogwhistled at, or accepted help from.
But if you waste a second or a dollar to promote the idea that his supporters are all or mostly deplorables, you might as well get on the payroll of the RNC. It will only help him. (and it just stokes the divide in this slow civil war)
Let Biden's campaign focus on issues and policy, and getting his message out. Some other PAC/group/entity/shadowy force/whatever should be laser-focused on attacking Trump relentlessly. Harrying him. Wearing him out, tearing him down. By any legal means.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:57 PM on January 26
But if you waste a second or a dollar to promote the idea that his supporters are all or mostly deplorables, you might as well get on the payroll of the RNC. It will only help him. (and it just stokes the divide in this slow civil war)
Let Biden's campaign focus on issues and policy, and getting his message out. Some other PAC/group/entity/shadowy force/whatever should be laser-focused on attacking Trump relentlessly. Harrying him. Wearing him out, tearing him down. By any legal means.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:57 PM on January 26
and it just stokes the divide in this slow civil war
I'm suggesting that a person of bad character, unreliable in every way, will be happy to support Trump more by hearing more maligning truth about Trump. Trump is running an anti-hero campaign, but with too many timid pleasers in tow because they are voting against Democrats they don't like because Democrats pretend to be so good. Trumpers hate that because they were verbally abused into strict righteous conformity as youth. So the only viable strategy left is to reveal the true hardcore wannabe criminal that is rehashing the old civil war and wanting to murder and loot during the chaos. To the least-corrupt camp followers of Trump, this will give them pause and they will create distance. The unspoken truth and spotlight will be on those deeds they were told to avoid, and they fear the spotlight. Trump won't defend them in any meaningful way because of psychopathy and they won't gather to hear him repeat the accusations, because it would crack his image to expose their self-pity.
posted by Brian B. at 3:14 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
I'm suggesting that a person of bad character, unreliable in every way, will be happy to support Trump more by hearing more maligning truth about Trump. Trump is running an anti-hero campaign, but with too many timid pleasers in tow because they are voting against Democrats they don't like because Democrats pretend to be so good. Trumpers hate that because they were verbally abused into strict righteous conformity as youth. So the only viable strategy left is to reveal the true hardcore wannabe criminal that is rehashing the old civil war and wanting to murder and loot during the chaos. To the least-corrupt camp followers of Trump, this will give them pause and they will create distance. The unspoken truth and spotlight will be on those deeds they were told to avoid, and they fear the spotlight. Trump won't defend them in any meaningful way because of psychopathy and they won't gather to hear him repeat the accusations, because it would crack his image to expose their self-pity.
posted by Brian B. at 3:14 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
Nah, Brian B., you are wishcasting. And with all the best of intentions. But the moment in any plan involving Trump that you try to project that their reaction to something negative about Trump will yield an abandonment of Trump? That's the moment when you're speaking against all the evidence we've seen thus far. Every indictment has garnered him more, strengthened support. Until we get a conviction or a medical incident, nothing about his support will change materially. They are immune to negative information about Trump.
posted by hippybear at 3:47 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
posted by hippybear at 3:47 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
Not sure if there's a better Trump thread for this, but pour yourself a drink and raise a toast to E. Jean Carroll and Robbie Kaplan because Jury finds Trump must pay $83.3 million to E. Jean Carroll.
Obviously, real courts and juries are having none of Donald Trump's bullshit. Now, Trump's just going to defame E. Jean Carroll again, we all know it, and Kaplan's probably got the next complaint already drafted waiting to fill in the particulars.
(Personally, I hoped the jury was going to go north of 100 million, but it looks like I have to wait till Carroll III.)
posted by mikelieman at 4:28 PM on January 26 [5 favorites]
Obviously, real courts and juries are having none of Donald Trump's bullshit. Now, Trump's just going to defame E. Jean Carroll again, we all know it, and Kaplan's probably got the next complaint already drafted waiting to fill in the particulars.
(Personally, I hoped the jury was going to go north of 100 million, but it looks like I have to wait till Carroll III.)
posted by mikelieman at 4:28 PM on January 26 [5 favorites]
Worth raising many toasts to the woman who figured out the way to monetize TFG's One Weird Trick. Here's hoping she bankrupts him before enough rubes and fuckwits get it together to put him back in the Oval Office.
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 PM on January 26 [3 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 PM on January 26 [3 favorites]
that you try to project that their reaction to something negative about Trump will yield an abandonment of Trump?
I may have been confusing with the word criminal, I meant the average follower with guns ready. Expose their plans, don't even mention Trump. It's targeting the law and order types who think they're getting away with associating with bad company as if nobody has noticed.
posted by Brian B. at 4:47 PM on January 26
I may have been confusing with the word criminal, I meant the average follower with guns ready. Expose their plans, don't even mention Trump. It's targeting the law and order types who think they're getting away with associating with bad company as if nobody has noticed.
posted by Brian B. at 4:47 PM on January 26
If you think that being public about Project 2025 will move anyone away from Trump... most people who are backing him WANT this plan because it is an example of Extreme Winning for their side.
I mean, if you can thread that messaging needle and manage to get it out there in a way that is effective, then more power to you. I just don't see how it is anything that enough people that matter will listen to.
What I do think is that Trump is going to lose in the general election, but not because he's lost any of his base. It's because the people who aren't his base are more than his base. But I'm also wishcasting based on the current polls.
posted by hippybear at 4:54 PM on January 26
I mean, if you can thread that messaging needle and manage to get it out there in a way that is effective, then more power to you. I just don't see how it is anything that enough people that matter will listen to.
What I do think is that Trump is going to lose in the general election, but not because he's lost any of his base. It's because the people who aren't his base are more than his base. But I'm also wishcasting based on the current polls.
posted by hippybear at 4:54 PM on January 26
I'm expecting to see TFG win that election, off the back of low Democratic turnout in response to Biden's craven eagerness to facilitate and support the Gazan genocide.
It's not that Biden is particularly craven on the Palestine question as US presidents go; in particular, as a personal friend of the execrable Bibi there's no doubt that TFG was and would be much, much worse. But Biden is where he is only because of a historically high Dem turnout in 2020 that I think he'll struggle to replicate in 2024, despite it having been motivated as much by loathing for TFG as approval for Biden.
I really, really hope I'm wrong. I really, really hope that enough Americans are motivated by seeing what Sharlet sees to overcome the nausea of the forced choice between two pro-genocide Presidential candidates, or that Biden grows a pair and reins Israel in early enough for the news cycle to have moved onto something else by November. Because if that doesn't happen, there are enough Americans who have no problem at all with fascism or genocide to sweep TFG back in.
posted by flabdablet at 6:04 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
It's not that Biden is particularly craven on the Palestine question as US presidents go; in particular, as a personal friend of the execrable Bibi there's no doubt that TFG was and would be much, much worse. But Biden is where he is only because of a historically high Dem turnout in 2020 that I think he'll struggle to replicate in 2024, despite it having been motivated as much by loathing for TFG as approval for Biden.
I really, really hope I'm wrong. I really, really hope that enough Americans are motivated by seeing what Sharlet sees to overcome the nausea of the forced choice between two pro-genocide Presidential candidates, or that Biden grows a pair and reins Israel in early enough for the news cycle to have moved onto something else by November. Because if that doesn't happen, there are enough Americans who have no problem at all with fascism or genocide to sweep TFG back in.
posted by flabdablet at 6:04 PM on January 26 [1 favorite]
I really, really hope that enough Americans are motivated by seeing what Sharlet sees to overcome the nausea of the forced choice between two pro-genocide Presidential candidates
What can you expect from a rigidly bipolar political system that thinks it can wedge the whole spectrum of policy options into a binary choice between a center-right party and a hard-right party? Not that you can fix this before November.
I had, then lost, a link to an opinion piece on CNN (... lame onsite search engine!), quoting Wendy Schiller, I believe. This piece emphased the damage done when TFG was enraged enough to lash out at Haley in his NH win speech. This is what has to happen, nonstop, folks. Seems Haley has more spine than the Democrat establishment when it comes to tweaking the Mango Mussolini.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:18 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
What can you expect from a rigidly bipolar political system that thinks it can wedge the whole spectrum of policy options into a binary choice between a center-right party and a hard-right party? Not that you can fix this before November.
I had, then lost, a link to an opinion piece on CNN (... lame onsite search engine!), quoting Wendy Schiller, I believe. This piece emphased the damage done when TFG was enraged enough to lash out at Haley in his NH win speech. This is what has to happen, nonstop, folks. Seems Haley has more spine than the Democrat establishment when it comes to tweaking the Mango Mussolini.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:18 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
Best case outcome: she manages to tweak him hard enough that he busts a foofer valve and takes himself off the ballot, and then we all have fun watching the leopards reward her in their customary fashion.
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 9:26 AM on January 27 [1 favorite]
Ok, it was the Guardian, sorry.
posted by Artful Codger at 9:51 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
Yet the 77-year-old [Trump] remains consumed with rage over Haley’s unwillingness to quit the race. His petulance offers a reminder of the unhinged behaviour that turned off independent voters in New Hampshire and could prove to be a liability in a head-to-head contest with Biden.Keep TFG publicly enraged and petulant.
“Donald Trump wants the race to be over and we see evidence of why that’s important for the Trump campaign from his speech, which was essentially a train wreck and exhibited all the worst tendencies of Donald Trump. It was an undisciplined Trump and this is what turns off independent voters.”
[Schiller] added: “This is the achilles heel for the Trump campaign and they know it.... Their worry is not that they’re not going to win the nomination; their worry is the damage that Trump having to respond to Haley will do in the general election with independent voters.”
posted by Artful Codger at 9:51 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
Yes, all the "smart people in the room talking about matters" podcasts I engage with focussed on that rage-filled speech and how bad it made Trump look. Even Haley is talking about how Trump didn't mention the American People once in his speech, it was all about him and his rage.
It's going to be a very long month, but if Haley can keep funded up until South Carolina, it just might be long enough to undo Trump on a deep level. Maybe not with SC voters, as they're a special lot, but certainly across the country.
posted by hippybear at 9:57 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
It's going to be a very long month, but if Haley can keep funded up until South Carolina, it just might be long enough to undo Trump on a deep level. Maybe not with SC voters, as they're a special lot, but certainly across the country.
posted by hippybear at 9:57 AM on January 27 [2 favorites]
trump boosts ai image of himself praying, but with 6 fingers
posted by glonous keming at 11:55 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 11:55 AM on January 27 [5 favorites]
I'd love to go back to 1984-me and relate how the good news is the Mac is still around and better than ever, but we have a six-fingered President Trump to deal with.
posted by torokunai at 1:14 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]
posted by torokunai at 1:14 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]
Too funny. This has to be hammered, now. Reporters should ask to see his hands at every scrum. Comment on hand size, too.
AI images from a devotee... Can't wait for the fanfic.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:50 PM on January 27
AI images from a devotee... Can't wait for the fanfic.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:50 PM on January 27
Quick, someone call Inigo Montoya!
posted by VTX at 1:55 PM on January 27 [4 favorites]
posted by VTX at 1:55 PM on January 27 [4 favorites]
Even though to many fingers is common in AI photos, two things make this funny for me. 1) He had to use an AI photo because he's almost never in a church in real life. 2) In the Catholic zeal to discredit (Protestant) Elizabeth I, a Jesuit priest invented the story that Anne Boleyn had six fingers, which made Elizabeth the child of an evil monster. (The sixth finger was a sign that Anne had belonged to the devil.)
Clearly Trump showing us he has six fingers means he's trying to tell us something. 😆
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:45 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]
Clearly Trump showing us he has six fingers means he's trying to tell us something. 😆
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 2:45 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]
delfin: “If we are going to have a flareup of violence and death in the near future, it will be in Texas.”“Has-Been Dilbert Guy Scott Adams Offers Gonadal Insights On Texas, Border, ‘Mating,’” Doktor Zoom, The Wonkette, 27 January 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 2:49 PM on January 27 [1 favorite]
Mod note: One (and response) deleted. Let's avoid posting fake / AI propaganda stuff unless there really is some compelling reason to share. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:05 PM on January 28
posted by taz (staff) at 11:05 PM on January 28
"Awesomed by God"
One of a million perfect phrases writer Jeff Sharlet uses to describe the beliefs/lifestyle of yet another self-described prosperity Christian (subset: evangelical bro version).
(We've been listening rapt, thanks to Mumimor's post, over two very long car journeys this weekend to the audiobook of Undertow, beautifully read by the author. We came for the brilliant analysis of Trump's appeal...but the whole book is gripping. Thank you.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:39 AM on January 29 [3 favorites]
One of a million perfect phrases writer Jeff Sharlet uses to describe the beliefs/lifestyle of yet another self-described prosperity Christian (subset: evangelical bro version).
(We've been listening rapt, thanks to Mumimor's post, over two very long car journeys this weekend to the audiobook of Undertow, beautifully read by the author. We came for the brilliant analysis of Trump's appeal...but the whole book is gripping. Thank you.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:39 AM on January 29 [3 favorites]
So I listened to this, and it was more interesting that I was expecting it to be. Actually, Trump Supporters Are Delusional [35m] is from Slate's "Hear Me Out" podcast, and it's a guy arguing that delusion is exactly what is going on, and that Trump supporters have been deliberately deluded by outside forces into thinking they way they do.
Anyway, it's a more interesting listen than the title suggests. Interesting enough that I put it here.
posted by hippybear at 9:48 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
Anyway, it's a more interesting listen than the title suggests. Interesting enough that I put it here.
posted by hippybear at 9:48 AM on January 30 [2 favorites]
That Slate podcast just made it to the top of my pile. It is absolutely worth the half-hour.
posted by ob1quixote at 6:35 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 6:35 PM on January 30 [3 favorites]
I'd love to go back to 1984-me and relate how the good news is the Mac is still around and better than ever, but we have a six-fingered President Trump to deal with.
“RONALD REAGAN? THE ACTOR?!”
posted by bq at 8:00 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
“RONALD REAGAN? THE ACTOR?!”
posted by bq at 8:00 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
“RONALD REAGAN? THE ACTOR?!”
So, it's interesting how Back To The Future was about contrasting the Now of 1985 with the Then of 1955 and then later the possible When of 2015. We're in a situation now where looking back 40 years means the new Macintosh Computer just had an ad in the Super Bowl and Reaganism and Neoconservatism beginning to take off, AIDS is beginning to really start killing people while the President makes jokes in news conferences, and so many other things...
That past is truly a foreign country compared to the now. Even 5 years ago is a foreign country.
I'm exhausted.
posted by hippybear at 3:29 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
So, it's interesting how Back To The Future was about contrasting the Now of 1985 with the Then of 1955 and then later the possible When of 2015. We're in a situation now where looking back 40 years means the new Macintosh Computer just had an ad in the Super Bowl and Reaganism and Neoconservatism beginning to take off, AIDS is beginning to really start killing people while the President makes jokes in news conferences, and so many other things...
That past is truly a foreign country compared to the now. Even 5 years ago is a foreign country.
I'm exhausted.
posted by hippybear at 3:29 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
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posted by johngoren at 5:48 AM on January 22 [13 favorites]