Random Ex-President Hit With $364 million dollar fine and business ban
February 16, 2024 12:38 PM Subscribe
One thing that's never in any "Go back and stop Hitler" fantasies is a part where, with the whole world having seen all of his fuckery laid bare, and with the gun finally leveled at his head, millions of people cry out, "No! Don't! WE LOVE THAT GUY." And the newspapers are all "Should we stop Hitler, though? I mean... he's bad and all, but he is leading in the polls."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:41 PM on February 16 [95 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:41 PM on February 16 [95 favorites]
Surely this?
posted by Dip Flash at 12:43 PM on February 16 [29 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 12:43 PM on February 16 [29 favorites]
Weirdly, he might actually have the money to pay it, because Truth Social (where he owns over half the stock) is about to have an IPO with a valuation of over a billion dollars.
(Link is to Gizmodo, which does not require a subscription, and within the article is a link to WSJ which does.)
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:43 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
(Link is to Gizmodo, which does not require a subscription, and within the article is a link to WSJ which does.)
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 12:43 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
sickos.jpg
posted by Going To Maine at 12:44 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:44 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
Why does NYT say it's only $355 million?
posted by heyitsgogi at 12:45 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
posted by heyitsgogi at 12:45 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
This is why he's trying to topple Ronna McDaniel as RNC chair and replace her with Eric's wife, Lara.
Ronna will do anything for Trump... except left him pay legal fees directly put of party funds. That's about to be a lot more urgent ask.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:45 PM on February 16 [25 favorites]
Ronna will do anything for Trump... except left him pay legal fees directly put of party funds. That's about to be a lot more urgent ask.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:45 PM on February 16 [25 favorites]
This is the happiest day of my life.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:45 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:45 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
Good ol' Exec. Law 63(12).
posted by praemunire at 12:45 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 12:45 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
One interesting bit I wasn't aware of until reading the NYT article: "There might be little Mr. Trump can do to thwart one of the judge's most consequential punishments: extending for three years the appointment of an independent monitor who will be the court's eyes and ears at the Trump Organization, watching for fraud and second-guessing transactions that look suspicious."
posted by mittens at 12:46 PM on February 16 [42 favorites]
posted by mittens at 12:46 PM on February 16 [42 favorites]
And the newspapers are all "Should we stop Hitler, though? I mean... he's bad and all, but he is leading in the polls
More like, "Sure, he's a monster, but did you know his opponent is really old!!???"
posted by soundguy99 at 12:47 PM on February 16 [53 favorites]
More like, "Sure, he's a monster, but did you know his opponent is really old!!???"
posted by soundguy99 at 12:47 PM on February 16 [53 favorites]
Unless the independent monitor gets sucked into the cult too.
posted by Melismata at 12:47 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by Melismata at 12:47 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
One thing that's never in any "Go back and stop Hitler" fantasies is a part where, with the whole world having seen all of his fuckery laid bare, and with the gun finally leveled at his head, millions of people cry out, "No! Don't! WE LOVE THAT GUY." And the newspapers are all "Should we stop Hitler, though? I mean... he's bad and all, but he is leading in the polls."
Donald Trump will say “This was a bad and mean judge, very unfair.” and many people will believe him. The media doesn’t exactly seem part of the transaction.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:48 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
Donald Trump will say “This was a bad and mean judge, very unfair.” and many people will believe him. The media doesn’t exactly seem part of the transaction.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:48 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
That independent monitor is gonna be hip deep in death threats in about 75 minutes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:48 PM on February 16 [27 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:48 PM on February 16 [27 favorites]
(They are part of other transactions! But not this one.)
posted by Going To Maine at 12:48 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 12:48 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
Ha-ha.gif
posted by lalochezia at 12:50 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 12:50 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
Also; this is my standard post in any TFG thread
Fiat ju$titia ruat caelum, motherfuckers!
posted by lalochezia at 12:51 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
Fiat ju$titia ruat caelum, motherfuckers!
posted by lalochezia at 12:51 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
Impatiently awaiting the follow-up articles in tomorrow's press about how some critical piece of executing these fines is subject to the honor system/tradition, eligible for review by judges put into power by Donald Trump, or can be stalled indefinitely by appeals.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:52 PM on February 16 [22 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:52 PM on February 16 [22 favorites]
Surely this.
Aaah, how I make myself laugh.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:57 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
Aaah, how I make myself laugh.
posted by Capt. Renault at 12:57 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
NYT gift link
WaPo gift link
Go away, Donald. Just go away.
posted by Synaptic at 12:58 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
WaPo gift link
Go away, Donald. Just go away.
posted by Synaptic at 12:58 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Donald Trump will say “This was a bad and mean judge, very unfair.” and many people will believe him. The media doesn’t exactly seem part of the transaction.
How else do those many people find out about what Trump said?
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 1:02 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
How else do those many people find out about what Trump said?
posted by slappy_pinchbottom at 1:02 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
Weirdly, he might actually have the money to pay it, because Truth Social (where he owns over half the stock) is about to have an IPO with a valuation of over a billion dollars.
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on February 16 [16 favorites]
The new company’s current valuation is somewhere in the neighborhood of approximately $7 billion at the current stock price, an astounding figure for a company with relatively few active users. Truth Social has less than 1 million active usersHow does that valuation work?
posted by trig at 1:08 PM on February 16 [16 favorites]
How does that valuation work?
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say... FRAUD.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:10 PM on February 16 [79 favorites]
I'm gonna take a wild guess and say... FRAUD.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:10 PM on February 16 [79 favorites]
Remember, Rapist Donald Trump has earned the prefix, 'rapist', thus the proper way of referring to Rapist Donald Trump in any context is, "Rapist Donald Trump".
posted by mikelieman at 1:10 PM on February 16 [58 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 1:10 PM on February 16 [58 favorites]
Weirdly, he might actually have the money to pay it, because Truth Social (where he owns over half the stock) is about to have an IPO with a valuation of over a billion dollars.
IPO money is not, like, actual cash in the bank money though, is it? That's just the total valuation of the shares. To use the IPO to pay this he'd have to sell a ton of his stock which (at least in the olden days) would bring the stock price down? (maybe finance doesn't work like this any more in the truthcoin 21st century idk)
posted by anastasiav at 1:12 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
IPO money is not, like, actual cash in the bank money though, is it? That's just the total valuation of the shares. To use the IPO to pay this he'd have to sell a ton of his stock which (at least in the olden days) would bring the stock price down? (maybe finance doesn't work like this any more in the truthcoin 21st century idk)
posted by anastasiav at 1:12 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
For cash, rich people borrow against their assets at really low rates
posted by Stu-Pendous at 1:18 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
posted by Stu-Pendous at 1:18 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
How does that valuation work?
Somebody who stands to profit when that number is big gets to set the number: yay capitalism!
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:19 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
Somebody who stands to profit when that number is big gets to set the number: yay capitalism!
posted by AzraelBrown at 1:19 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
For cash, rich people borrow against their assets at really low rates
Russian stooges get to do that, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
Russian stooges get to do that, too.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:19 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
To use the IPO to pay this he'd have to sell a ton of his stock which (at least in the olden days) would bring the stock price down?
It needn't if you're buying it as a bribe.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 1:19 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
It needn't if you're buying it as a bribe.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 1:19 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
> "Why does NYT say it's only $355 million?"
I think the $364 million figure includes the combined $8 million that Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. were fined.
posted by kyrademon at 1:19 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
I think the $364 million figure includes the combined $8 million that Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr. were fined.
posted by kyrademon at 1:19 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
For cash, rich people borrow against their assets at really low rates
As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment.
posted by mittens at 1:20 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment.
posted by mittens at 1:20 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
As so many have noted, we still need to see what effect this truly has in the end: After the appeals; whether anybody really cares; do the legal limits on using campaign cash to pay fines actually get enforced or does he just ignore them and get away with it.
Nevertheless, a bad thing happened to a bad person and that is ok. I, for one, would simply like the bad orange man to go away, and this is a tiny step toward making the bad orange man go away. And that is enough, for today.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:21 PM on February 16 [24 favorites]
Nevertheless, a bad thing happened to a bad person and that is ok. I, for one, would simply like the bad orange man to go away, and this is a tiny step toward making the bad orange man go away. And that is enough, for today.
posted by Tomorrowful at 1:21 PM on February 16 [24 favorites]
Campaign cash? The RNC doesn't have that kind of scratch right now. They're tapped out from his previous legal fees.
posted by bink at 1:23 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 1:23 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
That independent monitor is gonna be hip deep in death threats in about 75 minutes.
They’ll have to find someone who has dealt with the mob before.
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
They’ll have to find someone who has dealt with the mob before.
posted by Artw at 1:25 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
So, way back when George Floyd's killers were found guilty, I found a screenshot of that famous panel from DOONESBURY where Mark Slackmeyer is talking about Watergate; he's pounding on a table and wildly proclaiming that certain figures are "Guilty! Guilty, guilty, guilty!" I posted that on Facebook.
Shortly thereafter, I also started reposting it for various Trump-related trial outcomes. I did it again just now.
One of my connections is a playwright my theater company worked with whose "day job" is being a lawyer in Topeka. He always says he loves it whenever I repost that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:26 PM on February 16 [32 favorites]
Shortly thereafter, I also started reposting it for various Trump-related trial outcomes. I did it again just now.
One of my connections is a playwright my theater company worked with whose "day job" is being a lawyer in Topeka. He always says he loves it whenever I repost that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:26 PM on February 16 [32 favorites]
If we could just get the pee pee tape released in the next 24 hours, that would be the knockout blow.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:31 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
The failures and losses do add up though. Trump's big selling point is that he is invincible, and he will always prevail despite the forces aligned against him. Sure, there's a nice story where he overcomes the setbacks on appeal or whatever, but he was never supposed to touchable in the first place.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:36 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:36 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
> "The failures and losses do add up though."
That's one reason I'm really hoping he loses the hush money payment case as well.
That and the fact that he's obviously guilty, of course.
posted by kyrademon at 1:46 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
That's one reason I'm really hoping he loses the hush money payment case as well.
That and the fact that he's obviously guilty, of course.
posted by kyrademon at 1:46 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
I hope Letitia James walked right out of that courtroom and onto a plane to take herself somewhere unknown for a nice long vacation, anonymously and away from these nutjobs.
Job well done, Ms. James.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:47 PM on February 16 [47 favorites]
Job well done, Ms. James.
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:47 PM on February 16 [47 favorites]
All of these losses are only going to make TGF more unhinged. Some may think that makes him more powerful--and to his base it might--but I really think it makes it harder for many other people to stomach him. The fig leaf just gets vanishingly small.
posted by mazola at 1:48 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
posted by mazola at 1:48 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
This is the most entertaining day to be on the internet since he got banned from Twitter.
Remember him trying to use sockpuppet accounts to post around the ban?
I hope he finds some way to immediately debase himself further today, too. Protest against the judge in front of the courthouse and get tazed, maybe.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:49 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
Remember him trying to use sockpuppet accounts to post around the ban?
I hope he finds some way to immediately debase himself further today, too. Protest against the judge in front of the courthouse and get tazed, maybe.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:49 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
> mittens: "As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment."
Isn't that... isn't that, like, all of them? I went to this portal and looked up Deutsche Bank and ICBC (one of the biggest Chinese banks) and, as expected, they're both listed in there. I suppose it might leave open things like hedge funds or sovereign wealth funds? Not sure if those are the kinds of places he could tap for cash.
Also, I could have sworn that in one of the zillion depositions he gave, he stated that he wasn't worried about anything because he had something like $400 million in cash on hand (which I seem to recall he correctly admits as being very unusual for a real estate firm like his). First off, there's no good reason to believe that number and, given everything else we know, the actual number is almost certainly less than that. Which, given today's judgment on top of the $83 million he owes E. Jean Carroll, puts him just over his previously (over-)stated number and probably well over the actual number. In which case, he's gonna need to come up with some extra cash from somewhere pretty quick.
A propos of nothing, remember that time that Jared Kushner got his Saudi pals to blockade Qatar in order to force the Qataris to bail him out of his disastrous $1B investment in 666 5th Ave?
posted by mhum at 1:50 PM on February 16 [19 favorites]
Isn't that... isn't that, like, all of them? I went to this portal and looked up Deutsche Bank and ICBC (one of the biggest Chinese banks) and, as expected, they're both listed in there. I suppose it might leave open things like hedge funds or sovereign wealth funds? Not sure if those are the kinds of places he could tap for cash.
Also, I could have sworn that in one of the zillion depositions he gave, he stated that he wasn't worried about anything because he had something like $400 million in cash on hand (which I seem to recall he correctly admits as being very unusual for a real estate firm like his). First off, there's no good reason to believe that number and, given everything else we know, the actual number is almost certainly less than that. Which, given today's judgment on top of the $83 million he owes E. Jean Carroll, puts him just over his previously (over-)stated number and probably well over the actual number. In which case, he's gonna need to come up with some extra cash from somewhere pretty quick.
A propos of nothing, remember that time that Jared Kushner got his Saudi pals to blockade Qatar in order to force the Qataris to bail him out of his disastrous $1B investment in 666 5th Ave?
posted by mhum at 1:50 PM on February 16 [19 favorites]
The Rat Ship, as I affectionately call it, sent an SMS to the world, reading:
“ BREAKING FROM TRUMP: DEMOCRAT NEW YORK JUDGE JUST RULED AGAINST ME!
ELECTION INTERFERENCE!
Read my response: {link}
Stop2End “
Pity…
Great day for America everybody! One day at a time
posted by JoeXIII007 at 1:53 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
“ BREAKING FROM TRUMP: DEMOCRAT NEW YORK JUDGE JUST RULED AGAINST ME!
ELECTION INTERFERENCE!
Read my response: {link}
Stop2End “
Pity…
Great day for America everybody! One day at a time
posted by JoeXIII007 at 1:53 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment.
As far as I can tell, Trump's current (and I believe only?) lender is Axos Financial, a Nevada-based company that does not appear to be registered with the NY DFS, nor do any of its subsidiaries.
So I'm not sure how important that part of the ruling will be, as a practical matter.
posted by jedicus at 1:54 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
As far as I can tell, Trump's current (and I believe only?) lender is Axos Financial, a Nevada-based company that does not appear to be registered with the NY DFS, nor do any of its subsidiaries.
So I'm not sure how important that part of the ruling will be, as a practical matter.
posted by jedicus at 1:54 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
Don't look at this with beverage in your mouth.
posted by non canadian guy at 2:02 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
posted by non canadian guy at 2:02 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
When I hear about Trump's lawsuit bills, even this enormous one, I can't help but think of Jared Kushner and his two billion dollar deal with the Saudis. Jared could cover Donald's entire bill and still be a billionaire, so I'm not expecting Donald to be wearing a barrel with suspenders anytime soon. Or ever.
posted by zardoz at 2:08 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
posted by zardoz at 2:08 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
But, not being on the hook for 430+ million in damages, makes me feel good about myself. Maybe I'm not a terrible person...
posted by Windopaene at 2:18 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by Windopaene at 2:18 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Jared Kushner and his two billion dollar deal with the Saudis.
Zardoz, if nothing else, a hypothetical moment where Kushner distances himself from Trump would probably be the fork stuck in it moment, letting us all know Trump is finally finished.
I can’t see it ever happening, sadly. Kushner seems to prefer his grifting in the shadow of a bigger, more obvious scam artist.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:23 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
Zardoz, if nothing else, a hypothetical moment where Kushner distances himself from Trump would probably be the fork stuck in it moment, letting us all know Trump is finally finished.
I can’t see it ever happening, sadly. Kushner seems to prefer his grifting in the shadow of a bigger, more obvious scam artist.
posted by Ghidorah at 2:23 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
rat_penis.PNG
posted by glonous keming at 2:36 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 2:36 PM on February 16 [12 favorites]
Side question: when a chunk of money this large goes to the state of New York, where does it go from there?
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:49 PM on February 16
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:49 PM on February 16
Of all the Trump legal cases, this one is the most problematic for me. There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back, nobody's unhappy. Everyone expects that there's lots of backhanders and favouritism at the top levels (behind every great fortune there is a crime, etc etc), and it's arguable that being Trump's banker is (was) a PR win for the banks, so I think that in many peoples' eyes, this does look like an exceptional effort from a liberal/Democratic state to prosecute a Republican.
I don't for one second condone business shenanigans, but can anyone name one other prominent business figure who has been similarly prosecuted for fibbing on a loan application, when there was no victim or injured party?
I'm putting more stock in the criminal proceedings. And I will seriously consider believing in a just God if the Stormy Daniels' payoff turns out to be tfg's undoing.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:50 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
I don't for one second condone business shenanigans, but can anyone name one other prominent business figure who has been similarly prosecuted for fibbing on a loan application, when there was no victim or injured party?
I'm putting more stock in the criminal proceedings. And I will seriously consider believing in a just God if the Stormy Daniels' payoff turns out to be tfg's undoing.
posted by Artful Codger at 2:50 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
For cash, rich people borrow against their assets at really low rates
Well, margin rates right now are at around 5 percent for the mega rich borrowers, and anyone taking Truth Social as collateral is really making a shadow bribe.
As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment.
As I hear it, US banks have written him off a decade ago, hence the Russian and now Chinese investors. Surely no conflicts of interest there...
posted by pwnguin at 2:50 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
Well, margin rates right now are at around 5 percent for the mega rich borrowers, and anyone taking Truth Social as collateral is really making a shadow bribe.
As long as he's not trying to borrow from "any financial institution chartered by or registered with the New York Department of Financial Services," according to the judgment.
As I hear it, US banks have written him off a decade ago, hence the Russian and now Chinese investors. Surely no conflicts of interest there...
posted by pwnguin at 2:50 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
Side question: when a chunk of money this large goes to the state of New York, where does it go from there?
Ideally to found the Letitia James Institute for Business Ethics, but we unfortunately don't live in a perfect world.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:54 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
Ideally to found the Letitia James Institute for Business Ethics, but we unfortunately don't live in a perfect world.
posted by Navelgazer at 2:54 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
I don't for one second condone business shenanigans, but can anyone name one other prominent business figure who has been similarly prosecuted for fibbing on a loan application, when there was no victim or injured party?
No, but that just means we should do this more often.
posted by stevis23 at 2:54 PM on February 16 [56 favorites]
No, but that just means we should do this more often.
posted by stevis23 at 2:54 PM on February 16 [56 favorites]
There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back
And if they hadn't?
What you're saying is the equivalent of there should be no charges for "attempted murder" as no one actually died! Just because his business paid them back doesn't mean it's kosher.
Sure, there was no victim, but there certainly was a victor. Not punishing this behavior is akin to encouraging it.
posted by dobbs at 2:57 PM on February 16 [55 favorites]
And if they hadn't?
What you're saying is the equivalent of there should be no charges for "attempted murder" as no one actually died! Just because his business paid them back doesn't mean it's kosher.
Sure, there was no victim, but there certainly was a victor. Not punishing this behavior is akin to encouraging it.
posted by dobbs at 2:57 PM on February 16 [55 favorites]
Hell, I'd lock this guy up for jaywalking.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:58 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 2:58 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
How does that valuation work?
The Central Bank of the Russian Federation, or its front banks like Deutsche Bank.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:04 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
The Central Bank of the Russian Federation, or its front banks like Deutsche Bank.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:04 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
If he'd been honest he would have paid more in interest.
posted by away for regrooving at 3:10 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
posted by away for regrooving at 3:10 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
Update: looks like I’m out a six-pack of Dr. Pepper!
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:11 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 3:11 PM on February 16 [6 favorites]
...anyone taking Truth Social as collateral is really making a shadow bribe.
Yep.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 3:12 PM on February 16
Yep.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 3:12 PM on February 16
Judge Arthur Engoron:
"Defendants'... complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological."
posted by doctornemo at 3:14 PM on February 16 [29 favorites]
"Defendants'... complete lack of contrition and remorse borders on pathological."
posted by doctornemo at 3:14 PM on February 16 [29 favorites]
At his age, could Trump appeal this until even deeper senility? Is there some chance the court holds onto this money during the appeals proccess? If so, that's hilarious.
We've seemingly no thread on how Elon Musk buying Twitter helped Saudi Arabia continue tracking down dissidents, after the DOJ rolled up the earlier Saudi inflitration on Twitter, not even mentions when the news broke.
Although Truth Social looks remarkably dumb, someone like the Saudis might pay "soemthing" for even more direct influence over the loons. $1000 per user is crazy talk of course, but something. It's also plausible they'd run their own pump & dumb scam, so maybe they'd avoid revealing how much they paid, or simply lie.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:20 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
We've seemingly no thread on how Elon Musk buying Twitter helped Saudi Arabia continue tracking down dissidents, after the DOJ rolled up the earlier Saudi inflitration on Twitter, not even mentions when the news broke.
Although Truth Social looks remarkably dumb, someone like the Saudis might pay "soemthing" for even more direct influence over the loons. $1000 per user is crazy talk of course, but something. It's also plausible they'd run their own pump & dumb scam, so maybe they'd avoid revealing how much they paid, or simply lie.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:20 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
They’ll have to find someone who has dealt with the mob before.
It's Rudy time!
posted by Arch_Stanton at 3:46 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
It's Rudy time!
posted by Arch_Stanton at 3:46 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
when there was no victim or injured party
From Engoron's opinion: “This court is mindful that this action is not the first time the Trump Organization or its related entities has been found to have engaged in corporate malfeasance. This is not defendants’ first rodeo. [. . . ]
“timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace.”
“Indeed, the common excuse that ‘everybody does it’ is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud."
This Vox.com article on the judgement points out that Trump paid $750 in income tax in 2016, that he refused to divest during his presidency and raked in millions from US taxpayers and foreign corporations & governments.
The Trump Organization committed tax fraud.
The former CFO of the Trump Organization, Allen Weissberg, is now a convicted felon because of this tax fraud.
US and NY citizens are the victims. Maybe not directly through this particular case, but he's been fucking the taxpayers for decades.
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't follow the case closely enough to know to what extent past transgressions were allowed as evidence, but to treat this like some isolated, "well, it's not fair because he borrowed money and paid it back no harm no foul" is nonsense. Engoron had the opportunity and the responsibility to put the brakes on a long-standing practice of fraudulent business, and he took it.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:13 PM on February 16 [41 favorites]
From Engoron's opinion: “This court is mindful that this action is not the first time the Trump Organization or its related entities has been found to have engaged in corporate malfeasance. This is not defendants’ first rodeo. [. . . ]
“timely and total repayment of loans does not extinguish the harm that false statements inflict on the marketplace.”
“Indeed, the common excuse that ‘everybody does it’ is all the more reason to strive for honesty and transparency and to be vigilant in enforcing the rules. Here, despite the false financial statements, it is undisputed that defendants have made all required payments on time; the next group of lenders to receive bogus statements might not be so lucky. New York means business in combating business fraud."
This Vox.com article on the judgement points out that Trump paid $750 in income tax in 2016, that he refused to divest during his presidency and raked in millions from US taxpayers and foreign corporations & governments.
The Trump Organization committed tax fraud.
The former CFO of the Trump Organization, Allen Weissberg, is now a convicted felon because of this tax fraud.
US and NY citizens are the victims. Maybe not directly through this particular case, but he's been fucking the taxpayers for decades.
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't follow the case closely enough to know to what extent past transgressions were allowed as evidence, but to treat this like some isolated, "well, it's not fair because he borrowed money and paid it back no harm no foul" is nonsense. Engoron had the opportunity and the responsibility to put the brakes on a long-standing practice of fraudulent business, and he took it.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:13 PM on February 16 [41 favorites]
Huh. Musk just flew into West Palm Beach.
Is Musk gonna float the appeal bond? Which, by the way, is 120% of the principal, plus 9% interest going back to 2019. We are looking at over half a billion dollars at this point.
As for a victimless crime, that's not entirely valid; Trump defrauded the banks by lying to them about his assets, thus getting loans at lower interest rates (or more money) than he would have otherwise. So the banks made less money than they would have if they loaned that money to other people, and other borrowers may have paid more in interest in order to make up for the profit the bank wasn't getting from Trump.
Similarly, Trump defrauded the city of NYC by misrepresenting the value of his properties, and paid less in property taxes than similarly-situated property owners. Which meant that the citizens of NYC got less in public benefits than they would have if TFG hadn't lied about his property values.
That nobody was directly injured doesn't mean there wasn't injury, and the more people like TFG are allowed to get away with that shit, the more common it is.
posted by suelac at 4:16 PM on February 16 [74 favorites]
Is Musk gonna float the appeal bond? Which, by the way, is 120% of the principal, plus 9% interest going back to 2019. We are looking at over half a billion dollars at this point.
As for a victimless crime, that's not entirely valid; Trump defrauded the banks by lying to them about his assets, thus getting loans at lower interest rates (or more money) than he would have otherwise. So the banks made less money than they would have if they loaned that money to other people, and other borrowers may have paid more in interest in order to make up for the profit the bank wasn't getting from Trump.
Similarly, Trump defrauded the city of NYC by misrepresenting the value of his properties, and paid less in property taxes than similarly-situated property owners. Which meant that the citizens of NYC got less in public benefits than they would have if TFG hadn't lied about his property values.
That nobody was directly injured doesn't mean there wasn't injury, and the more people like TFG are allowed to get away with that shit, the more common it is.
posted by suelac at 4:16 PM on February 16 [74 favorites]
there was no victim or injured party
Some people were punched in the dark, however.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:19 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Some people were punched in the dark, however.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:19 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Is Musk gonna float the appeal bond? Which, by the way, is 120% of the principal, plus 9% interest going back to 2019. We are looking at over half a billion dollars at this point.
"What do you do after setting $44 billion on fire to buy a social media service that you didn't actually want in the worst financial decision in the history of civilization?"
"Hold my beer."
posted by delfin at 4:20 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
"What do you do after setting $44 billion on fire to buy a social media service that you didn't actually want in the worst financial decision in the history of civilization?"
"Hold my beer."
posted by delfin at 4:20 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
> can anyone name one other prominent business figure who has been similarly prosecuted
Just as with Al Capone, a pussy cat threat comparatively, we take what we can get
whatever it takes!
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:21 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
Just as with Al Capone, a pussy cat threat comparatively, we take what we can get
whatever it takes!
posted by goinWhereTheClimateSuitsMyClothes at 4:21 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
Suppose I ask you for a loan of $1,000.
You reply, "But I can't afford to lose $1,000. What if you don't pay
me back?"
I say, "Tell you what: I promise there's something in this cardboard
box that's worth at least $1,000. You can hold onto the box while I
have your money, and you can keep what's in the box in case I don't
pay you back. No matter what, you'll be covered."
You loan me the money, and I give you the box. The next day I pay you
back $1,000 plus interest.
But when you try to hand me back the cardboard box, I say, "Keep the
box you fuckin' idiot. It was empty this whole time. Pleasure doing
business with you, dumbass."
Were you victimized? What do you think?
Both common sense and the law say that you are the victim of a crime.
I lied to you so I could take risks with your money without your
knowledge or consent.
The crime is called "fraud", it definitely has victims, and it's not
tough to understand who is getting harmed and the nature of that harm.
posted by springo at 4:31 PM on February 16 [86 favorites]
You reply, "But I can't afford to lose $1,000. What if you don't pay
me back?"
I say, "Tell you what: I promise there's something in this cardboard
box that's worth at least $1,000. You can hold onto the box while I
have your money, and you can keep what's in the box in case I don't
pay you back. No matter what, you'll be covered."
You loan me the money, and I give you the box. The next day I pay you
back $1,000 plus interest.
But when you try to hand me back the cardboard box, I say, "Keep the
box you fuckin' idiot. It was empty this whole time. Pleasure doing
business with you, dumbass."
Were you victimized? What do you think?
Both common sense and the law say that you are the victim of a crime.
I lied to you so I could take risks with your money without your
knowledge or consent.
The crime is called "fraud", it definitely has victims, and it's not
tough to understand who is getting harmed and the nature of that harm.
posted by springo at 4:31 PM on February 16 [86 favorites]
prosecuted for fibbing on a loan application, when there was no victim or injured party
I haven't looked closely at these at all, and it's possible there were injured parties in all of them, but - among the first results for a simple search on:
"charged" "false" "loans" -trump -ppp site:gov
(exclude items with Trump or PPP, limit to government sites)
2023, News Medford Contractor Sentenced in Tax Evasion Scheme , on a quick skim, I don't see foreclosure or default here (but there was tax evasion, where the injured party was the government, and so, all of us)
2023, Former NASA employee and husband charged in mortgage fraud scheme ; they defaulted on the loans, so there was an injured party
2013, 23 Individuals Indicted And Arrested For False Statements In Loan Applications And Bank Fraud ; I'm not seeing any default; the US Attorney said, "The investigation and prosecution of financial crimes is one of the top priorities of the U.S. Department of Justice. Mortgage fraud is a serious issue for the banking industry and for homeowners who helplessly watch as their property values decrease, and foreclosure signs and abandoned properties take over their neighborhoods."
2014, Twenty Individuals Indicted and Arrested for Providing False Statements in Loan Applications and Bank Fraud ; I think this is a different case from the one above, and this one DID involve defaults
2012, Federal Prosecutors Charge Five People for Fraudulent Home Loan Applications ; I see one mention of default, but I don't think all five defaulted
2010, Kearny Woman Charged in Multi-Million Dollar Scheme to Obtain Mortgage Loans Using False Identities & Counterfeit Documents; this one's a little more complicated - they were using short sales and deliberately triggering foreclosures
So without checking thoroughly, I can't say for sure whether any of these meet your criteria, but it does show that various agencies at various levels of government do, indeed, bring charges for falsifying loan statements, and - while I haven't actually noticed a huge focus of the DoJ being financial crimes, I'm very glad when they do.
posted by kristi at 4:33 PM on February 16 [14 favorites]
I haven't looked closely at these at all, and it's possible there were injured parties in all of them, but - among the first results for a simple search on:
"charged" "false" "loans" -trump -ppp site:gov
(exclude items with Trump or PPP, limit to government sites)
2023, News Medford Contractor Sentenced in Tax Evasion Scheme , on a quick skim, I don't see foreclosure or default here (but there was tax evasion, where the injured party was the government, and so, all of us)
2023, Former NASA employee and husband charged in mortgage fraud scheme ; they defaulted on the loans, so there was an injured party
2013, 23 Individuals Indicted And Arrested For False Statements In Loan Applications And Bank Fraud ; I'm not seeing any default; the US Attorney said, "The investigation and prosecution of financial crimes is one of the top priorities of the U.S. Department of Justice. Mortgage fraud is a serious issue for the banking industry and for homeowners who helplessly watch as their property values decrease, and foreclosure signs and abandoned properties take over their neighborhoods."
2014, Twenty Individuals Indicted and Arrested for Providing False Statements in Loan Applications and Bank Fraud ; I think this is a different case from the one above, and this one DID involve defaults
2012, Federal Prosecutors Charge Five People for Fraudulent Home Loan Applications ; I see one mention of default, but I don't think all five defaulted
2010, Kearny Woman Charged in Multi-Million Dollar Scheme to Obtain Mortgage Loans Using False Identities & Counterfeit Documents; this one's a little more complicated - they were using short sales and deliberately triggering foreclosures
So without checking thoroughly, I can't say for sure whether any of these meet your criteria, but it does show that various agencies at various levels of government do, indeed, bring charges for falsifying loan statements, and - while I haven't actually noticed a huge focus of the DoJ being financial crimes, I'm very glad when they do.
posted by kristi at 4:33 PM on February 16 [14 favorites]
Also, I could have sworn that in one of the zillion depositions he gave, he stated that he wasn't worried about anything because he had something like $400 million in cash on hand (which I seem to recall he correctly admits as being very unusual for a real estate firm like his).
Someone linked a Doonesbury cartoon way above, and this sentence reminded me of a series of very old Doonesbury cartoons, where Zonker gets busted with some weed seeds, goes to jail, and then is hauled into court with his dad. The judge asks his dad how much money he has on him, then coincidentally he is fined exactly that amount.
Seems like Engoron might be a Doonesbury fan.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:40 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
Someone linked a Doonesbury cartoon way above, and this sentence reminded me of a series of very old Doonesbury cartoons, where Zonker gets busted with some weed seeds, goes to jail, and then is hauled into court with his dad. The judge asks his dad how much money he has on him, then coincidentally he is fined exactly that amount.
Seems like Engoron might be a Doonesbury fan.
posted by Dip Flash at 4:40 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
>Donald Trump barred from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of three years.
>Don Jr, and Eric are barred from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years.
Bit disappointed in this bit. Trump should have got a lifetime ban, and Jr. and Eric ten years.
That said, I do note that in Trump's case that amounts to maybe half his remaining expected lifetime, possibly more, and is otherwise an excellent outcome, hitting Trump hard where it hurts him the most (his money, and his business reputation and prospects), and is thoroughly deserved.
>One interesting bit I wasn't aware of until reading the NYT article: "There might be little Mr. Trump can do to thwart one of the judge's most consequential punishments: extending for three years the appointment of an independent monitor who will be the court's eyes and ears at the Trump Organization, watching for fraud and second-guessing transactions that look suspicious."
posted by mittens
Extending for at least three years, IIRC. So it could potentially be longer, depending entirely on how cooperative and compliant Trump & Sons prove to be with the supervisory regime, which they are clearly incapable of being, so probably indefinitely.
>Engoron had the opportunity and the responsibility to put the brakes on a long-standing practice of fraudulent business, and he took it.
posted by soundguy99
+1
This ruling is, in no small part, also sending a clear message to any other fraud wannabees in NY about their long-standing business practices.
posted by Pouteria at 5:02 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
>Don Jr, and Eric are barred from serving as an officer or director of any New York corporation or other legal entity in New York for a period of two years.
Bit disappointed in this bit. Trump should have got a lifetime ban, and Jr. and Eric ten years.
That said, I do note that in Trump's case that amounts to maybe half his remaining expected lifetime, possibly more, and is otherwise an excellent outcome, hitting Trump hard where it hurts him the most (his money, and his business reputation and prospects), and is thoroughly deserved.
>One interesting bit I wasn't aware of until reading the NYT article: "There might be little Mr. Trump can do to thwart one of the judge's most consequential punishments: extending for three years the appointment of an independent monitor who will be the court's eyes and ears at the Trump Organization, watching for fraud and second-guessing transactions that look suspicious."
posted by mittens
Extending for at least three years, IIRC. So it could potentially be longer, depending entirely on how cooperative and compliant Trump & Sons prove to be with the supervisory regime, which they are clearly incapable of being, so probably indefinitely.
>Engoron had the opportunity and the responsibility to put the brakes on a long-standing practice of fraudulent business, and he took it.
posted by soundguy99
+1
This ruling is, in no small part, also sending a clear message to any other fraud wannabees in NY about their long-standing business practices.
posted by Pouteria at 5:02 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Senior Republicans fear Trump will tap the RNC to cover legal bills again
lmao, "fear" in this context implies uncertainty. Why would there be any doubt?
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:09 PM on February 16 [17 favorites]
lmao, "fear" in this context implies uncertainty. Why would there be any doubt?
posted by The Card Cheat at 5:09 PM on February 16 [17 favorites]
Perhaps they believed he had already wrung every last cent out of it?
posted by wenestvedt at 5:17 PM on February 16
posted by wenestvedt at 5:17 PM on February 16
... when there was no victim or injured party
Couldn't a similar argument be made for a drunk driver who never had a crash or hurt anyone, but was caught at a sobriety checkpoint?
posted by phliar at 5:24 PM on February 16 [19 favorites]
Couldn't a similar argument be made for a drunk driver who never had a crash or hurt anyone, but was caught at a sobriety checkpoint?
posted by phliar at 5:24 PM on February 16 [19 favorites]
Part of me is like “great, let him bleed the RNC. It’s not right, it’s not moral, but every dollar that guy sucks up is a dollar that doesn’t go to a downticket race that could materially affect LGBT+, Latine, Black, etc people. Let him live out his life shiitting into a pile of golden toilets if it starves his hateful co-conspirators.” The other part of me wants guillotines.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:26 PM on February 16 [47 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:26 PM on February 16 [47 favorites]
Side question: when a chunk of money this large goes to the state of New York, where does it go from there?
General fund, usually.
posted by praemunire at 6:04 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
General fund, usually.
posted by praemunire at 6:04 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Remember, friends, if they can do this to him after a decades-long career of corruption and grift, they can do it to any one of you. Any time you innocently lie about the value of your properties and businesses on official documents, government documents, loan applications, now they can get you. Is that the kind of America you want?
posted by gauche at 6:05 PM on February 16 [38 favorites]
posted by gauche at 6:05 PM on February 16 [38 favorites]
Part of me is like “great, let him bleed the RNC. It’s not right, it’s not moral, but every dollar that guy sucks up is a dollar that doesn’t go to a downticket race that could materially affect LGBT+, Latine, Black, etc people. Let him live out his life shiitting into a pile of golden toilets if it starves his hateful co-conspirators.” The other part of me wants guillotines.
Confiscation first, then guillotines after.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Confiscation first, then guillotines after.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:07 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Apologies if someone else already covered this, but is there anything stopping Musk/Russia/the Saudis, etc. from fronting him the money for the appeal?
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:09 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:09 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
Just their common sense.
posted by Nekosoft at 6:14 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by Nekosoft at 6:14 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Apologies if someone else already covered this, but is there anything stopping Musk/Russia/the Saudis, etc. from fronting him the money for the appeal?
Thanks to Citizens United, no.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:16 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
Thanks to Citizens United, no.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:16 PM on February 16 [9 favorites]
I was watching the video from the Georgia court while waiting for this ruling, and speculating wether the whole scam is about to be unravelled now, earlier than we thought. Though it doesn't mean all is good.
"Getting away with it" is one of Trump's core selling points, wether it is about tax fraud or voter suppression. For the trumpists, his criminality is a feature, not a flaw. But it feels like the justice system is beginning, very slowly, to fight back. Clearly, not everyone has gotten the message. With fascism there will always be some people who think they can benefit, and some do.
posted by mumimor at 6:33 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
"Getting away with it" is one of Trump's core selling points, wether it is about tax fraud or voter suppression. For the trumpists, his criminality is a feature, not a flaw. But it feels like the justice system is beginning, very slowly, to fight back. Clearly, not everyone has gotten the message. With fascism there will always be some people who think they can benefit, and some do.
posted by mumimor at 6:33 PM on February 16 [2 favorites]
Any time you innocently lie about the value of your properties and businesses on official documents, government documents, loan applications, now they can get you.
I don't know what an "innocent lie" means in this context, but I'm pretty sure they could and would go after me for that already. Nothing has changed for me.
posted by Avelwood at 6:46 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
I don't know what an "innocent lie" means in this context, but I'm pretty sure they could and would go after me for that already. Nothing has changed for me.
posted by Avelwood at 6:46 PM on February 16 [3 favorites]
Shirley this?
posted by guiseroom at 6:57 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by guiseroom at 6:57 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Can Trump pay? What if he doesn’t? Here’s what to know about Trump’s massive civil judgments.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:15 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
posted by Rhaomi at 7:15 PM on February 16 [4 favorites]
They call him the teflon Don for a reason, and don't call me Shirley!
posted by evilDoug at 7:18 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
posted by evilDoug at 7:18 PM on February 16 [1 favorite]
Make everyone happy. Golden guillotines, paid for from the RNC party fund.
posted by allium cepa at 7:29 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
posted by allium cepa at 7:29 PM on February 16 [5 favorites]
I'm going to make these predictions.
#1. Trump doesn't have the money to pay.
#2. Trump doesn't have the money to put in escrow to make an appeal. (Over $500 million)
#3. Trump does not want to go broke or put a fire sale on his assets to pay this.
#4. Trump will secretly cash out as much as he can and go into exile to avoid paying.
The only other way out for him that I can see is an entity such as Saudi Arabia or Musk. Would Trump have to disclose where the money came from?
I wish Judge Engoron said, this is only $400 million dollars. That is only 5% of your claimed wealth of 8 billion. Unless you exaggerated your assets.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:08 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
#1. Trump doesn't have the money to pay.
#2. Trump doesn't have the money to put in escrow to make an appeal. (Over $500 million)
#3. Trump does not want to go broke or put a fire sale on his assets to pay this.
#4. Trump will secretly cash out as much as he can and go into exile to avoid paying.
The only other way out for him that I can see is an entity such as Saudi Arabia or Musk. Would Trump have to disclose where the money came from?
I wish Judge Engoron said, this is only $400 million dollars. That is only 5% of your claimed wealth of 8 billion. Unless you exaggerated your assets.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 8:08 PM on February 16 [11 favorites]
when a chunk of money this large goes to the state of New York, where does it go from there?
I don't know if this IS what will happen, but using the money to offset NYC's costs for sheltering the influx of migrants being bussed in from Texas lately would be a DELICIOUS kind of poetic justice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:16 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
I don't know if this IS what will happen, but using the money to offset NYC's costs for sheltering the influx of migrants being bussed in from Texas lately would be a DELICIOUS kind of poetic justice.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:16 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Rat dick.
Yes, this is in the right place.
posted by orange ball at 8:23 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is in the right place.
posted by orange ball at 8:23 PM on February 16 [7 favorites]
Would Trump have to disclose where the money came from?
IANA(NYS)L, but I’m guessing yes. In my jurisdiction, post-9/11, the bar and courts have become hyper-fucking-aware of money laundering schemes, and for orders of magnitude far less than half a billion dollars.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:49 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
IANA(NYS)L, but I’m guessing yes. In my jurisdiction, post-9/11, the bar and courts have become hyper-fucking-aware of money laundering schemes, and for orders of magnitude far less than half a billion dollars.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:49 PM on February 16 [10 favorites]
Would Trump have to disclose where the money came from?
There's a court-appointed monitor already overseeing the business, so any cash entering the court without the monitor's knowledge would be a money-laundering red-flag.
posted by mikelieman at 8:54 PM on February 16 [14 favorites]
There's a court-appointed monitor already overseeing the business, so any cash entering the court without the monitor's knowledge would be a money-laundering red-flag.
posted by mikelieman at 8:54 PM on February 16 [14 favorites]
There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back
Trump’s fraud distorted the market, and kept other, rules-following actors from doing those deals.
Same goes for the banks and insurers who let themselves be gulled by a well-known fraudster.
posted by notyou at 8:59 PM on February 16 [15 favorites]
Trump’s fraud distorted the market, and kept other, rules-following actors from doing those deals.
Same goes for the banks and insurers who let themselves be gulled by a well-known fraudster.
posted by notyou at 8:59 PM on February 16 [15 favorites]
I don't for one second condone business shenanigans, but can anyone name one other prominent business figure who has been similarly prosecuted for fibbing on a loan application, when there was no victim or injured party?
Yes and Yes. Probably more, tired though.
posted by Toddles at 9:20 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
Yes and Yes. Probably more, tired though.
posted by Toddles at 9:20 PM on February 16 [8 favorites]
no victim or injured party
Beyond what others have said, there's also a serious collective action problem here: if all loan applicants overstate the value of the assets, then all the banks have taken on too much, and it eventually falls apart with global consequences. This has happened... two or three times already this century?
So yeah, if just one person overstates their assets, or just one person doesn't pay their taxes, nothing really happens. But if everyone does, it all falls apart. So we penalize individuals to prevent the broader harm.
posted by McBearclaw at 11:25 PM on February 16 [20 favorites]
Beyond what others have said, there's also a serious collective action problem here: if all loan applicants overstate the value of the assets, then all the banks have taken on too much, and it eventually falls apart with global consequences. This has happened... two or three times already this century?
So yeah, if just one person overstates their assets, or just one person doesn't pay their taxes, nothing really happens. But if everyone does, it all falls apart. So we penalize individuals to prevent the broader harm.
posted by McBearclaw at 11:25 PM on February 16 [20 favorites]
So yeah, if just one person overstates their assets, or just one person doesn't pay their taxes, nothing really happens. But if everyone does, it all falls apart. So we penalize individuals to prevent the broader harm.
The problem is even more complex than that and would happen even without market-spanning fraud. No legal deterrence for fraud means that every party either has to invest significant resources in identifying fraud in every transaction or treat everyone as a potential fraudster. To connect this to another current FPP, in the humble consumer world, this means no one picks up their phones when they get calls from unknown numbers anymore, for fear of getting scammed, which I think everyone agrees is a goddamned stupid way of having to live in a modern society. In the financing world, everyone has to either triple their investment in due diligence...or just not do deals at all (or only the kind where they can immediately pass the risk along to some entity more naive).
posted by praemunire at 12:22 AM on February 17 [22 favorites]
The problem is even more complex than that and would happen even without market-spanning fraud. No legal deterrence for fraud means that every party either has to invest significant resources in identifying fraud in every transaction or treat everyone as a potential fraudster. To connect this to another current FPP, in the humble consumer world, this means no one picks up their phones when they get calls from unknown numbers anymore, for fear of getting scammed, which I think everyone agrees is a goddamned stupid way of having to live in a modern society. In the financing world, everyone has to either triple their investment in due diligence...or just not do deals at all (or only the kind where they can immediately pass the risk along to some entity more naive).
posted by praemunire at 12:22 AM on February 17 [22 favorites]
It's nice if Trump must flee to the island of Elba or whatever, but..
Republican candidates have only worsened since the 60s, well except for Bush v1 replacing Reagan. I'd expect they continue this trend with whomever replaces Trump.
Also, our first-past-the-post ellections ensure we keep a two party system, when then ensures they must win roughly half the time.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:54 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
Republican candidates have only worsened since the 60s, well except for Bush v1 replacing Reagan. I'd expect they continue this trend with whomever replaces Trump.
Also, our first-past-the-post ellections ensure we keep a two party system, when then ensures they must win roughly half the time.
posted by jeffburdges at 12:54 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
TLDR, MBS funnels cash into truth social, gets political favors in exchange for saving the orange bacon.
posted by constraint at 3:26 AM on February 17
posted by constraint at 3:26 AM on February 17
Wonder if his zombie horde is tired of all the winning yet.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 3:58 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 3:58 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Wonder if his zombie horde is tired of all the winning yet.
Meh. They long-ago compartmentalized Needy Amin’s legal woes as “political attacks.”
posted by Thorzdad at 5:24 AM on February 17 [9 favorites]
Meh. They long-ago compartmentalized Needy Amin’s legal woes as “political attacks.”
posted by Thorzdad at 5:24 AM on February 17 [9 favorites]
There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back
I literally just now heard a recording of Tish James addressing this very point in her post-verdict interview:
"When the powerful break the law and take more of their fair share, that means there are less resources for working people and small businesses."
There was a victim here. I'm one of the victims, and so is my roommate and so is everyone in the building I live in and on the block I live in, and the neighborhood, etc. Trump claiming a loan based on faked-up data meant the bank had less to give out to smaller businesses at the times they were applying, and made smaller companies look like a comparative risk even though they were honest and Trump was not; and who knows how many small businesses my city lost out on because of this?
There's no one single victim, no - but there were indeed victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:05 AM on February 17 [36 favorites]
I literally just now heard a recording of Tish James addressing this very point in her post-verdict interview:
"When the powerful break the law and take more of their fair share, that means there are less resources for working people and small businesses."
There was a victim here. I'm one of the victims, and so is my roommate and so is everyone in the building I live in and on the block I live in, and the neighborhood, etc. Trump claiming a loan based on faked-up data meant the bank had less to give out to smaller businesses at the times they were applying, and made smaller companies look like a comparative risk even though they were honest and Trump was not; and who knows how many small businesses my city lost out on because of this?
There's no one single victim, no - but there were indeed victims.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:05 AM on February 17 [36 favorites]
Same goes for the banks and insurers who let themselves be gulled by a well-known fraudster.
I would bet that the banks were fully complicit in the fraud. We bought our first house in the early 2000's, during the era of "liar loans." I can remember sitting at the desk of the mortgage officer at the bank, with them telling us to just put in made-up income and asset numbers on the mortgage application. (For the record, we didn't, we took the risk of using our actual numbers and fortunately it still worked.) I can't recall exactly, but I'm not even sure we had to provide a W-2; I think the application was entirely based on what you claimed to have.
The point being, there's ways to make money on both sides of fraud like this, with incentives not just for the borrower but also the issuer to use false information.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on February 17 [8 favorites]
I would bet that the banks were fully complicit in the fraud. We bought our first house in the early 2000's, during the era of "liar loans." I can remember sitting at the desk of the mortgage officer at the bank, with them telling us to just put in made-up income and asset numbers on the mortgage application. (For the record, we didn't, we took the risk of using our actual numbers and fortunately it still worked.) I can't recall exactly, but I'm not even sure we had to provide a W-2; I think the application was entirely based on what you claimed to have.
The point being, there's ways to make money on both sides of fraud like this, with incentives not just for the borrower but also the issuer to use false information.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:23 AM on February 17 [8 favorites]
There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back
I'm not going to try to look this up, but ISTR that the banks testified that they'd have imposed higher interest rates if they'd had the correct information. In which case the banks and their shareholders lost money due to this fraud, plain and simple.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on February 17 [16 favorites]
I'm not going to try to look this up, but ISTR that the banks testified that they'd have imposed higher interest rates if they'd had the correct information. In which case the banks and their shareholders lost money due to this fraud, plain and simple.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 6:49 AM on February 17 [16 favorites]
There is/was no victim; the loans all got paid back
This seems disingenuous, since it was literally one of Trump’s favourite things to say throughout the trial, and it wasn’t accepted as a line of exculpatory defence by the judge who literally just found him guilty of fraud.
posted by Joeruckus at 6:55 AM on February 17 [14 favorites]
This seems disingenuous, since it was literally one of Trump’s favourite things to say throughout the trial, and it wasn’t accepted as a line of exculpatory defence by the judge who literally just found him guilty of fraud.
posted by Joeruckus at 6:55 AM on February 17 [14 favorites]
Thanks to Citizens United, no.
Citizens United is about political speech and election funding, not the payment of fees/fines imposed by the court. Trump will have to account for that money as a regular citizen. Now, that doesn't stop them from funding his political campaign, and if Trump uses campaign money to pay his civil debts then he'll end up in court again, because that'll be caught by the court-appointed accountant.
Also, I get that him having a financial supervisor appointed by the courts is a good thing, but don't think Trump has all his eggs in one basket. There's going to be a whole lot of rigamarole about what records that person is going to be allowed to see, only things related to doing a certain kind of business versus non-business funds, etc. Trump's organization isn't going to show a single numeric digit beyond what the court is allowed to see.
Lastly: do you "no victim" people realize how many laws you can be punished for every day that don't have a "victim" in the weird strict sense you're using it? Government in general is totally built on enforcing laws regarding victimless crimes in order to maintain the "common good". Everyone accused of a crime has an excuse why they're allowed; that's totally the reason the defense attorney exists. I get that anti-capitalism is a common attitude here on Metafilter, but seriously step back and look at the reasons you're agreeing with Trump here, it's not because you're on the same side.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:06 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
Citizens United is about political speech and election funding, not the payment of fees/fines imposed by the court. Trump will have to account for that money as a regular citizen. Now, that doesn't stop them from funding his political campaign, and if Trump uses campaign money to pay his civil debts then he'll end up in court again, because that'll be caught by the court-appointed accountant.
Also, I get that him having a financial supervisor appointed by the courts is a good thing, but don't think Trump has all his eggs in one basket. There's going to be a whole lot of rigamarole about what records that person is going to be allowed to see, only things related to doing a certain kind of business versus non-business funds, etc. Trump's organization isn't going to show a single numeric digit beyond what the court is allowed to see.
Lastly: do you "no victim" people realize how many laws you can be punished for every day that don't have a "victim" in the weird strict sense you're using it? Government in general is totally built on enforcing laws regarding victimless crimes in order to maintain the "common good". Everyone accused of a crime has an excuse why they're allowed; that's totally the reason the defense attorney exists. I get that anti-capitalism is a common attitude here on Metafilter, but seriously step back and look at the reasons you're agreeing with Trump here, it's not because you're on the same side.
posted by AzraelBrown at 7:06 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
This morning's piece from TheDailyBeast.com written by lawyer & professor Ray Brescia is titled "Trump’s ‘No Victims’ Fraud Defense Is an Insult to Taxpayers".
It might be behind a sign-up wall, so here's two direct excerpts regarding "no victims":
It might be behind a sign-up wall, so here's two direct excerpts regarding "no victims":
The corresponding move that Trump took with the very same assets when reporting their worth to governments was often to devalue them, or simply to defraud the government of other funds to which they might be entitled. By doing so, in no uncertain terms, he cheated governments, and, by extension, taxpayers.posted by soundguy99 at 7:08 AM on February 17 [11 favorites]
with Ferry Point, New York City paid well over $100 million dollars of taxpayer money to construct the course, at no cost to Trump. When bidding on the right to manage the course, Judge Engoron found that the Trump Organization submitted false statements in its application and then failed to abide by the terms of the contract with the city once it won the contract. Trump recently flipped it for a $60 million windfall to a new developer, who agreed to pay Trump an additional $115 million if the developer lands a casino license for the property. The judge’s decision seeks to allow the attorney general to claw back that money.
After a tropical storm passed, Trump received 31 million from his insurance for damages at Mar A Lago (abbreviated MAL, Spanish for evil).
No victims? All those who were turned down for their insurance claims, everyone who had to pay more for insurance.
No victims? Everyone who was turned down for a loan because they provided honest assessments of their assets. Everyone who paid a higher rate because of this self-aggrandizing asshole.
I once calculated that if the top 1% of income holders paid taxes at the rate versus the prescribed rate, the treasury would have (I think it was) $500 billion more per year. I realize that the annual deficit runs more than that, but this is like per year per forever. Tax cheats like Trump are a main reason why we have a deficit.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 AM on February 17 [20 favorites]
No victims? All those who were turned down for their insurance claims, everyone who had to pay more for insurance.
No victims? Everyone who was turned down for a loan because they provided honest assessments of their assets. Everyone who paid a higher rate because of this self-aggrandizing asshole.
I once calculated that if the top 1% of income holders paid taxes at the rate versus the prescribed rate, the treasury would have (I think it was) $500 billion more per year. I realize that the annual deficit runs more than that, but this is like per year per forever. Tax cheats like Trump are a main reason why we have a deficit.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:13 AM on February 17 [20 favorites]
Rat dick.
Yes, this is in the right place.
posted by orange ball at 11:23 PM on February 16
Eponysterical.
posted by Melismata at 7:38 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
Yes, this is in the right place.
posted by orange ball at 11:23 PM on February 16
Eponysterical.
posted by Melismata at 7:38 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
'He's stuck': Michael Cohen says Trump is in 'total panic mode' and can't sell his way out .
I want to believe.
posted by mazola at 7:54 AM on February 17 [19 favorites]
I want to believe.
posted by mazola at 7:54 AM on February 17 [19 favorites]
Hi. I appreciate all the feedback, and the links.
The comparisons to attempted murder or drunk-driving seem off--point. The rest, that focus on financial fraud, and the general point that it should be prosecuted wherever it's found..... Understood, and please don't think that I believe that no real crime was committed.
I am both cynical and underinformed here, but it's my impression that once it's at the billionaire level, financing is a different world from how you and I get credit. So I can imagine that the decision by a lender to finance a Trump is based, to some extent, on different criteria, compared to how the average person gets a mortgage or a loan. And again, what other billionaires have had their loans subjected to the same level of public scrutiny?
Or its maybe just that I'm another victim of the Trump effect; I've been more concerned with how this particular case feeds into his narrative of being persecuted, and ignoring the simple need for justice here.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:58 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
The comparisons to attempted murder or drunk-driving seem off--point. The rest, that focus on financial fraud, and the general point that it should be prosecuted wherever it's found..... Understood, and please don't think that I believe that no real crime was committed.
I am both cynical and underinformed here, but it's my impression that once it's at the billionaire level, financing is a different world from how you and I get credit. So I can imagine that the decision by a lender to finance a Trump is based, to some extent, on different criteria, compared to how the average person gets a mortgage or a loan. And again, what other billionaires have had their loans subjected to the same level of public scrutiny?
Or its maybe just that I'm another victim of the Trump effect; I've been more concerned with how this particular case feeds into his narrative of being persecuted, and ignoring the simple need for justice here.
posted by Artful Codger at 7:58 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
If your cynical worldview is that the rules don't apply to billionaires, then you shouldn't be surprised the rules don't apply to billionaires.
posted by betaray at 8:23 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
posted by betaray at 8:23 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
What I think I'd like an explanation for, is this: Say you're an evil billionaire who is used to paying Trump for access to...whatever it is they were paying Trump for. You want value for money. $400 million may not be everything to you, but certainly it's more than just writing a simple check. What value, specifically, are you expecting to get for that $400 million? What does Trump have on offer, that makes it worth it, that you could not get more cheaply by propping up some other politician? I ask because suddenly Trump has become very expensive, and surely your calculations of support have to change at some point?
posted by mittens at 8:30 AM on February 17 [6 favorites]
posted by mittens at 8:30 AM on February 17 [6 favorites]
Or its maybe just that I'm another victim of the Trump effect
Just remember that this is the guy who said "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" For 40 years this fucker has been loudly and proudly doing whatever he wants and daring everyone to come after him. Finally James and Carroll draw blood and he's wailing like a little bully who's been knocked down, his seeming bubble of invincibility punctured, his cultists going apeshit with anguish and rage (after pissing themselves because Taylor Swift won the Super Bowl). If on D-Day you would have said "Hang on guys, let's take a breath, we don't want to get Hitler REALLY mad now!" then maybe caution and prudence is for you, fine enough. But fuck the "Trump effect." If you've got your foot on this guy's throat you keep it there and press harder until the threat is neutralized, you don't help him up, pat him on the back, shake his hand and say "well played!" And instead of "Think of the poor billionaires!" maybe your attitude should be "Good. Do Musk next."
posted by hangashore at 8:39 AM on February 17 [38 favorites]
Just remember that this is the guy who said "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK?" For 40 years this fucker has been loudly and proudly doing whatever he wants and daring everyone to come after him. Finally James and Carroll draw blood and he's wailing like a little bully who's been knocked down, his seeming bubble of invincibility punctured, his cultists going apeshit with anguish and rage (after pissing themselves because Taylor Swift won the Super Bowl). If on D-Day you would have said "Hang on guys, let's take a breath, we don't want to get Hitler REALLY mad now!" then maybe caution and prudence is for you, fine enough. But fuck the "Trump effect." If you've got your foot on this guy's throat you keep it there and press harder until the threat is neutralized, you don't help him up, pat him on the back, shake his hand and say "well played!" And instead of "Think of the poor billionaires!" maybe your attitude should be "Good. Do Musk next."
posted by hangashore at 8:39 AM on February 17 [38 favorites]
I am disheartened that the ban wasn't permanent, but it is possible that this is the beginning of the end. He keeps losing these court cases.
posted by Selena777 at 9:12 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:12 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
Say you're an evil billionaire who is used to paying Trump for access to...whatever it is they were paying Trump for. You want value for money. $400 million may not be everything to you, but certainly it's more than just writing a simple check. What value, specifically, are you expecting to get for that $400 million?
Class solidarity? If the government can render judgments that actually hurt Trump, who knows who they might hold accountable to the rule of law next?
posted by straight at 10:19 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Class solidarity? If the government can render judgments that actually hurt Trump, who knows who they might hold accountable to the rule of law next?
posted by straight at 10:19 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
So I can imagine that the decision by a lender to finance a Trump is based, to some extent, on different criteria, compared to how the average person gets a mortgage or a loan.
You could imagine it, or you could read the trial coverage, as it was obviously necessary to address how those loans were underwritten to show that Trump gave them false information to use in the underwriting. It is a little strange that you are starting with the opposite assumption when the information is available to you if you care to look.
posted by praemunire at 10:35 AM on February 17 [8 favorites]
You could imagine it, or you could read the trial coverage, as it was obviously necessary to address how those loans were underwritten to show that Trump gave them false information to use in the underwriting. It is a little strange that you are starting with the opposite assumption when the information is available to you if you care to look.
posted by praemunire at 10:35 AM on February 17 [8 favorites]
$400 million is a pittance if it stops, say, $100 billion worth of military aid to Ukraine. Undermining NATO, gridlocking the US government, sowing seeds for internal violence in the US... that's worth a lot to certain people. Bin Laden's cost-benefit ratio remains the record-holder, of course.
posted by McBearclaw at 11:01 AM on February 17 [15 favorites]
posted by McBearclaw at 11:01 AM on February 17 [15 favorites]
It is a little strange that you are starting with the opposite assumption when the information is available to you if you care to look.
I've read plenty, thanks. It was a little different from the average loan application. From a not-average applicant.
And involving a bank that was keen to get the business. Are you claiming that the bank was genuinely misled into a 'yes' by the inflated property values? The inflated valuations seem more like a fig-leaf for a rate-reduction on loans that the bank was willing to grant in any case.
But yes, this is just speculating, and yes, fraud is still a crime.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:05 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
I've read plenty, thanks. It was a little different from the average loan application. From a not-average applicant.
And involving a bank that was keen to get the business. Are you claiming that the bank was genuinely misled into a 'yes' by the inflated property values? The inflated valuations seem more like a fig-leaf for a rate-reduction on loans that the bank was willing to grant in any case.
But yes, this is just speculating, and yes, fraud is still a crime.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:05 AM on February 17 [2 favorites]
I've read plenty, thanks. It was a little different from the average loan application. From a not-average applicant.
Every client at that level is different from the average, and everybody wants to land a whale. Did the banks waive due diligence, or did Trump submit a fat stack of lies for them to review to support the use of his personal guarantee?
yes, this is just speculating
You don't have to speculate, you know. There are two detailed rulings by the court, including fact-findings, to support the decisions. They're, for the most part, readily accessible for the non-lawyer, and set forth both the 63(12) [which has a different standard than regular civil fraud] and other legal standards and the conclusions the court drew from the evidence to find that they were met. Before you conclude that you've "read plenty" and decide in favor of Donald Trump's commercial good faith and totally nonharmful intentions and behavior, you should read those.
posted by praemunire at 11:28 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
Every client at that level is different from the average, and everybody wants to land a whale. Did the banks waive due diligence, or did Trump submit a fat stack of lies for them to review to support the use of his personal guarantee?
yes, this is just speculating
You don't have to speculate, you know. There are two detailed rulings by the court, including fact-findings, to support the decisions. They're, for the most part, readily accessible for the non-lawyer, and set forth both the 63(12) [which has a different standard than regular civil fraud] and other legal standards and the conclusions the court drew from the evidence to find that they were met. Before you conclude that you've "read plenty" and decide in favor of Donald Trump's commercial good faith and totally nonharmful intentions and behavior, you should read those.
posted by praemunire at 11:28 AM on February 17 [10 favorites]
(I'll even save you some time: for a precis addressing your speculations, you can jump to p. 75-77 of the post-trial ruling.)
posted by praemunire at 11:36 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:36 AM on February 17 [4 favorites]
Fortunately anyone still enraged by this egregious miscarriage of justice can donate to a GoFundMe set up to pay the fine, which as of this writing has collected over $71,000 (and has as yet somehow not already been shut down by GoFundMe, which prohibits the raising of funds to support "the legal defense of alleged financial and violent crimes" [scroll about one-third down the page, or search for the phrase in quotes]). But I guess it's no longer an "alleged" financial crime but a PROVEN one, so CHECKMATE, liberals!
posted by hangashore at 11:49 AM on February 17 [5 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 11:49 AM on February 17 [5 favorites]
for a precis addressing your speculations, you can jump to p. 75-77 of the post-trial ruling
Thanks. I have just reviewed it.
Did the banks waive due diligence, or did Trump submit a fat stack of lies for them to review to support the use of his personal guarantee?
... both? Kind of hard to believe that that kind of money would be lent out, to a well-known client that they already had history with, without a better understanding of what's really going on. Or banks are dumber than I've ever imagined.
But as per the judgement, the fraud is the crime, regardless of its outcome. I get that.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on February 17
Thanks. I have just reviewed it.
Did the banks waive due diligence, or did Trump submit a fat stack of lies for them to review to support the use of his personal guarantee?
... both? Kind of hard to believe that that kind of money would be lent out, to a well-known client that they already had history with, without a better understanding of what's really going on. Or banks are dumber than I've ever imagined.
But as per the judgement, the fraud is the crime, regardless of its outcome. I get that.
posted by Artful Codger at 11:51 AM on February 17
This happens to all the former presidents, right?
posted by morspin at 11:54 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
posted by morspin at 11:54 AM on February 17 [1 favorite]
... both? Kind of hard to believe that that kind of money would be lent out, to a well-known client that they already had history with, without a better understanding of what's really going on.
It can't be both, though. Either the banks asked him for a fairly detailed statement of his financial condition and he provided it, or they didn't.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you don't have any experience in big-dollar commercial real estate lending. I don't have any on the underwriting side, but, as a former Biglaw lawyer, I have read a decent number of these kinds of deal documents. There is a tension between wanting to get someone's business and subjecting them to intense scrutiny. DB was still making loans to Trump (and, hey, doing a ton of money laundering for awful people!) when most banks had stopped. Other banks have fucked this up at various times with various other clients in spectacular and sometimes hilarious (if you're cold-hearted like me) ways. But, in a non-corrupt transaction, due diligence isn't just a puppet show.
I don't think you're actually a Trump admirer, so I'll let this go with the conclusion that the kind of lazy cynicism you're expressing here--"everyone does it, everyone's corrupt, it can't be a crime"--is exactly the attitude he wants you to have towards...everything he does. A healthy society can't function on that basis.
posted by praemunire at 12:03 PM on February 17 [18 favorites]
It can't be both, though. Either the banks asked him for a fairly detailed statement of his financial condition and he provided it, or they didn't.
I'm not trying to be snarky here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that you don't have any experience in big-dollar commercial real estate lending. I don't have any on the underwriting side, but, as a former Biglaw lawyer, I have read a decent number of these kinds of deal documents. There is a tension between wanting to get someone's business and subjecting them to intense scrutiny. DB was still making loans to Trump (and, hey, doing a ton of money laundering for awful people!) when most banks had stopped. Other banks have fucked this up at various times with various other clients in spectacular and sometimes hilarious (if you're cold-hearted like me) ways. But, in a non-corrupt transaction, due diligence isn't just a puppet show.
I don't think you're actually a Trump admirer, so I'll let this go with the conclusion that the kind of lazy cynicism you're expressing here--"everyone does it, everyone's corrupt, it can't be a crime"--is exactly the attitude he wants you to have towards...everything he does. A healthy society can't function on that basis.
posted by praemunire at 12:03 PM on February 17 [18 favorites]
it seems to me that you don't have any experience in big-dollar commercial real estate lending.
That's correct. So I appreciate your perspective.
the kind of lazy cynicism you're expressing here--"everyone does it, everyone's corrupt, it can't be a crime"
If you review my first comment, I was basically commenting on the optics of this particular prosecution, and how it might be perceived or spun, and suggesting some rationalizations for why many might see this prosecution as primarily a political one. I've never said that such fraud is OK. That's all.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:48 PM on February 17 [6 favorites]
That's correct. So I appreciate your perspective.
the kind of lazy cynicism you're expressing here--"everyone does it, everyone's corrupt, it can't be a crime"
If you review my first comment, I was basically commenting on the optics of this particular prosecution, and how it might be perceived or spun, and suggesting some rationalizations for why many might see this prosecution as primarily a political one. I've never said that such fraud is OK. That's all.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:48 PM on February 17 [6 favorites]
Also, our first-past-the-post ellections ensure we keep a two party system, when then ensures they must win roughly half the time.
*waves from Canada* we have a first past the post system and don't have just two parties. I've long felt that the primary system and the consequent custom have people who are not politicians affiliating with political parties is responsible for your two-party woes, but I am an amateur gawker not a professional political scientist.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:00 PM on February 17 [4 favorites]
*waves from Canada* we have a first past the post system and don't have just two parties. I've long felt that the primary system and the consequent custom have people who are not politicians affiliating with political parties is responsible for your two-party woes, but I am an amateur gawker not a professional political scientist.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:00 PM on February 17 [4 favorites]
I am a professional political scientist and people commonly overstate duverger. Single-member plurality elections lead to two parties!
Canada has that and their two parties are the Liberals, the Fucking Tories, the NDP, the Greens, and the Bloc Quebecois, which as you'll notice is a large value of two.
The UK uses the same system and their two parties are Their Own Fucking Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, Scottish National, the Fucking DUP, Sinn Fein, Social Democrats, Greens, and Alliance. Which is a very large value of 2!
The most you can really say is that the strategic voting you'd expect in an SMD/1PP system exerts a vaguely moderate pressure towards fewer parties. If voters do it; a lot of Canada's woes can be pinned on Ontario voters refusing to vote strategically and handing their riding to The Fucking Tories.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:14 PM on February 17 [10 favorites]
Canada has that and their two parties are the Liberals, the Fucking Tories, the NDP, the Greens, and the Bloc Quebecois, which as you'll notice is a large value of two.
The UK uses the same system and their two parties are Their Own Fucking Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, Scottish National, the Fucking DUP, Sinn Fein, Social Democrats, Greens, and Alliance. Which is a very large value of 2!
The most you can really say is that the strategic voting you'd expect in an SMD/1PP system exerts a vaguely moderate pressure towards fewer parties. If voters do it; a lot of Canada's woes can be pinned on Ontario voters refusing to vote strategically and handing their riding to The Fucking Tories.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:14 PM on February 17 [10 favorites]
> Canada has that and their two parties are the Liberals, the Fucking Tories, the NDP, the Greens, and the Bloc Quebecois, which as you'll notice is a large value of two.
count viable parties per province/territory. count viable parties per riding.
> The UK uses the same system and their two parties are Their Own Fucking Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, Scottish National, the Fucking DUP, Sinn Fein, Social Democrats, Greens, and Alliance.
count viable parties per region. count viable parties per constituency.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:26 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
count viable parties per province/territory. count viable parties per riding.
> The UK uses the same system and their two parties are Their Own Fucking Tories, Labour, the Liberal Democrats, Plaid Cymru, Scottish National, the Fucking DUP, Sinn Fein, Social Democrats, Greens, and Alliance.
count viable parties per region. count viable parties per constituency.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:26 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
Citizens United is about political speech and election funding, not the payment of fees/fines imposed by the court. Trump will have to account for that money as a regular citizen.
Let's say the RNC pays off his fines and fees with "clean" money they already have in the bank. Entities, perhaps some that are state-nations, use CU to take care of the RNC's shortfall with much less traceable funding.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:42 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Let's say the RNC pays off his fines and fees with "clean" money they already have in the bank. Entities, perhaps some that are state-nations, use CU to take care of the RNC's shortfall with much less traceable funding.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:42 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
count viable parties per region. count viable parties per constituency.
By that definition the U.S. has a one party system.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:50 PM on February 17 [7 favorites]
By that definition the U.S. has a one party system.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 1:50 PM on February 17 [7 favorites]
As I am both a lawyer and a nerd, I've spent much of today reading the entire 92-page judgment. It is very well-written and paints a picture of such widespread fraud and corruption that it's in the realms of "you couldn't make this shit up". I would say it's unimpeachable and unappealable. It is incredibly damning. Repeatedly, deliberately and knowingly, Trump & Co lied about the value and/or availability of assets in order to obtain loans and insurance cover at rates which they would not have been entitled to if they had been truthful.
AND THEY ARE STILL DOING IT!!
From p.85-86 of the ruling:: (I've added line breaks and removed annotations for ease of reading)
"Defendants’ Conduct Since OAG Commenced its Investigation
In a Decision and Order dated November 14, 2022, this Court granted a motion by plaintiff for a preliminary injunction and, among other things, appointed the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) as an Independent Monitor tasked with overseeing the Trump Organization’s financial disclosures to any third parties and any transfer or other dissipation of assets.
The Court also directed Judge Jones to provide regular updates to the Court summarizing her findings and observations. To date, she has provided six reports, the last of which was dated January 26, 2024, after the conclusion of the trial.
In her final report, Judge Jones made the followings findings and observations:
(1) beginning in 2022, defendants elected no longer to submit SFCs, instead crafting their own list of “the Trust’s Material Assets and Material Liabilities, which does not include estimated current values of the properties contained therein and does not include a balance sheet of the guarantor or any representations regarding his financial condition, notwithstanding the loan covenants that still require it;
(2) during the course of her monitorship, defendants transferred significant funds outside of the Trust without notifying the monitor, as they were obligated to do;
(3) during the course of her monitorship, defendants have submitted disclosures to third parties that fail to include significant liabilities;
(4) the defendants are no longer representing that any disclosures are GAAP compliant, despite certain continuing obligations to do so;
(5) annual budgets of projected performance were submitted to third parties that were materially different from the actual budgets of the prior year and which excluded or significantly reduced actual management fees as liabilities;
(6) the internal accounting structure of the Trump Organization continues to be plagued by math and/or reporting errors; and
(7) there are no adequate internal controls over financial reporting in place at the Trump Organization to ensure that there will not continue to be misstatements and errors going forward.
Abso-fucking-lutely mindblowing.
posted by essexjan at 1:57 PM on February 17 [53 favorites]
AND THEY ARE STILL DOING IT!!
From p.85-86 of the ruling:: (I've added line breaks and removed annotations for ease of reading)
"Defendants’ Conduct Since OAG Commenced its Investigation
In a Decision and Order dated November 14, 2022, this Court granted a motion by plaintiff for a preliminary injunction and, among other things, appointed the Hon. Barbara Jones (ret.) as an Independent Monitor tasked with overseeing the Trump Organization’s financial disclosures to any third parties and any transfer or other dissipation of assets.
The Court also directed Judge Jones to provide regular updates to the Court summarizing her findings and observations. To date, she has provided six reports, the last of which was dated January 26, 2024, after the conclusion of the trial.
In her final report, Judge Jones made the followings findings and observations:
(1) beginning in 2022, defendants elected no longer to submit SFCs, instead crafting their own list of “the Trust’s Material Assets and Material Liabilities, which does not include estimated current values of the properties contained therein and does not include a balance sheet of the guarantor or any representations regarding his financial condition, notwithstanding the loan covenants that still require it;
(2) during the course of her monitorship, defendants transferred significant funds outside of the Trust without notifying the monitor, as they were obligated to do;
(3) during the course of her monitorship, defendants have submitted disclosures to third parties that fail to include significant liabilities;
(4) the defendants are no longer representing that any disclosures are GAAP compliant, despite certain continuing obligations to do so;
(5) annual budgets of projected performance were submitted to third parties that were materially different from the actual budgets of the prior year and which excluded or significantly reduced actual management fees as liabilities;
(6) the internal accounting structure of the Trump Organization continues to be plagued by math and/or reporting errors; and
(7) there are no adequate internal controls over financial reporting in place at the Trump Organization to ensure that there will not continue to be misstatements and errors going forward.
Abso-fucking-lutely mindblowing.
posted by essexjan at 1:57 PM on February 17 [53 favorites]
Yes, there are many places where the US is funtionally a one-party-system, but there also exist many US regions in which both parties remain fairly viable.
It's true first-past-the-post parliamentary systems like the UK and Canada do have regional parties, and even non-viable parties beyond each regions' two viable ones. I'd expect they even have small regions in which three parties stay viable, thanks to pressures from other regions.
It's true first-past-the-post parliamentary systems have party role transitions more often, like Labour and Liberal Democrats swapping their viability.
It's true the US has a particularly entrenched two party system for reasons beyond first-past-the-post, like not being parliamentary or similar.
It's still unlikely the US could escape its two party system without adopting ranked voting or similar, and that party role transitions look particularly hard there, so Republicans should continue winning roughly half the time for the foreseeable future. And I'd expect they continue getting worse & worse.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:59 PM on February 17 [5 favorites]
It's true first-past-the-post parliamentary systems like the UK and Canada do have regional parties, and even non-viable parties beyond each regions' two viable ones. I'd expect they even have small regions in which three parties stay viable, thanks to pressures from other regions.
It's true first-past-the-post parliamentary systems have party role transitions more often, like Labour and Liberal Democrats swapping their viability.
It's true the US has a particularly entrenched two party system for reasons beyond first-past-the-post, like not being parliamentary or similar.
It's still unlikely the US could escape its two party system without adopting ranked voting or similar, and that party role transitions look particularly hard there, so Republicans should continue winning roughly half the time for the foreseeable future. And I'd expect they continue getting worse & worse.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:59 PM on February 17 [5 favorites]
In her final report, Judge Jones made the followings findings and observations:
This is why the rationalization that they are being politically persecuted should receive little credence. Many crimes go unprosecuted, but when you're doing them right in front of everyone, including the cops, you shouldn't be surprised that your crimes get noticed.
posted by betaray at 2:13 PM on February 17 [8 favorites]
This is why the rationalization that they are being politically persecuted should receive little credence. Many crimes go unprosecuted, but when you're doing them right in front of everyone, including the cops, you shouldn't be surprised that your crimes get noticed.
posted by betaray at 2:13 PM on February 17 [8 favorites]
If you review my first comment, I was basically commenting on the optics of this particular prosecution, and how it might be perceived or spun, and suggesting some rationalizations for why many might see this prosecution as primarily a political one.
And for the eleventy-thousandth time, conservatives and Republicans have been outright lying and "spinning" things for over 50 years, they have an entire massive cable network and multiple other media outlets whose sole purpose is to lie and spin, the MAGA cultists who drive the current version of the Republican party approve of Trump evading taxes and sticking it to anyone who isn't a straight white male, and fully believe the core fascist propaganda that Trump is their persecuted savior. They don't need "rationalizations" for viewing this prosecutions as political, they're cultists.
Meanwhile there is no small evidence that people NOT in the MAGA cult - even those who might have been reliable Republican voters in the past - are out of patience with his bullshit. Not least being the part where the MAGA have been mostly losing in the polling booth since 2018.
Handwringing over the "optics" of Trump finally getting some consequences for a lifetime of criminal activity is surrender.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:50 PM on February 17 [15 favorites]
And for the eleventy-thousandth time, conservatives and Republicans have been outright lying and "spinning" things for over 50 years, they have an entire massive cable network and multiple other media outlets whose sole purpose is to lie and spin, the MAGA cultists who drive the current version of the Republican party approve of Trump evading taxes and sticking it to anyone who isn't a straight white male, and fully believe the core fascist propaganda that Trump is their persecuted savior. They don't need "rationalizations" for viewing this prosecutions as political, they're cultists.
Meanwhile there is no small evidence that people NOT in the MAGA cult - even those who might have been reliable Republican voters in the past - are out of patience with his bullshit. Not least being the part where the MAGA have been mostly losing in the polling booth since 2018.
Handwringing over the "optics" of Trump finally getting some consequences for a lifetime of criminal activity is surrender.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:50 PM on February 17 [15 favorites]
A drone shot above Broadway looking down should reveal a fabric print of interlocking murder victim outlines for all the people TFG has gotten away with shooting there.
posted by y2karl at 4:30 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
posted by y2karl at 4:30 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Trump is apparently hoping to raise money by starting a line of sneakers.
Not a joke. $399/pair. Made a surprise appearance at Sneaker Con in Philadelphia, where the reaction was . . . mixed.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:04 PM on February 17
Not a joke. $399/pair. Made a surprise appearance at Sneaker Con in Philadelphia, where the reaction was . . . mixed.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:04 PM on February 17
If you feel like you need some despair in your life, read the quotes in that article.
posted by aramaic at 5:53 PM on February 17 [6 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 5:53 PM on February 17 [6 favorites]
If you feel like you need some despair in your life, read the quotes in that article.
Seriously.
posted by mollweide at 5:58 PM on February 17
Seriously.
posted by mollweide at 5:58 PM on February 17
As in
Bryana Davis, 18, drove to Sneaker Con from North Jersey with a friend “to help him buy sneakers” and bought a pair for herself, too. She didn’t watch Trump’s appearance. “I’m not his biggest fan, but it’s cool,” she said.posted by y2karl at 6:18 PM on February 17 [1 favorite]
Davis was surprised to learn that the former president had come out with his own sneaker. “I think that’s dope,” she said?
oh, we're ALL so dope, aren't we?
god save us
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
god save us
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
... both? Kind of hard to believe that that kind of money would be lent out, to a well-known client that they already had history with, without a better understanding of what's really going on.
It can't be both, though. Either the banks asked him for a fairly detailed statement of his financial condition and he provided it, or they didn't.
Wasn't his defense basically, "Sure, there were discrepancies, but we put that clause right up front that you need to do your own due diligence, the banks did their diligence, and they happily loaned the money." In other words, yes he lied, but the banks knew he lied, and loaned the money anyway. I'm sure it's actually true, in that the lies were so obvious that if a bank did a bit research they would have known. But it turned out to be a crap defense in a situation where the lying turned out to be all that was needed for conviction.
My point is just that the banks were clearly complicit, but luckily for them that complicity didn't factor into anything so they've skated clear.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:37 PM on February 17 [5 favorites]
It can't be both, though. Either the banks asked him for a fairly detailed statement of his financial condition and he provided it, or they didn't.
Wasn't his defense basically, "Sure, there were discrepancies, but we put that clause right up front that you need to do your own due diligence, the banks did their diligence, and they happily loaned the money." In other words, yes he lied, but the banks knew he lied, and loaned the money anyway. I'm sure it's actually true, in that the lies were so obvious that if a bank did a bit research they would have known. But it turned out to be a crap defense in a situation where the lying turned out to be all that was needed for conviction.
My point is just that the banks were clearly complicit, but luckily for them that complicity didn't factor into anything so they've skated clear.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:37 PM on February 17 [5 favorites]
Was the worthless clause just a print out of "The Snake"?
posted by mazola at 7:20 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
posted by mazola at 7:20 PM on February 17 [2 favorites]
“I think that’s dope,” she said?
Oh oh here's where I finally get to trot out "only dopes use dope."
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:17 PM on February 17
Oh oh here's where I finally get to trot out "only dopes use dope."
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:17 PM on February 17
The degree of independent investigation required varies, but if you have to assume that all numbers provided by the borrower in the course of due diligence/underwriting are out-and-out fraudulent, then lending becomes impossible. Everyone puts in a "this valuation involves subjective judgment, etc." clause in their statements, but there's using subjective judgment in good faith, and then there's reporting to the state under penalty of perjury the same year that the property is worth tens to hundreds of millions dollars less.
posted by praemunire at 9:05 PM on February 17 [10 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:05 PM on February 17 [10 favorites]
Are the sneakers made in the good old USA?
posted by njohnson23 at 8:36 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
posted by njohnson23 at 8:36 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
Are the sneakers made in the good old USA?
American made sneakers would be a big selling point at launch with well over 99% of them imported, according to the video in the first link. There is also a niche retailing industry selling American made clothing. The only US made high tops it seems are Opieway brand, priced above Trump sneakers at almost $500. The sales for sneakers is growing fast too, see last link.
https://allamerican.org/lists/sneakers/
https://opieway.com/
https://runrepeat.com/sneaker-industry-stats
posted by Brian B. at 9:20 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
American made sneakers would be a big selling point at launch with well over 99% of them imported, according to the video in the first link. There is also a niche retailing industry selling American made clothing. The only US made high tops it seems are Opieway brand, priced above Trump sneakers at almost $500. The sales for sneakers is growing fast too, see last link.
https://allamerican.org/lists/sneakers/
https://opieway.com/
https://runrepeat.com/sneaker-industry-stats
posted by Brian B. at 9:20 AM on February 18 [2 favorites]
This rndom guy on twitter says no. This MSN article asks the question but doesn't answer.
posted by achrise at 9:21 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]
posted by achrise at 9:21 AM on February 18 [1 favorite]
You know I joined in 2001 a week and some days after 9/11. I look and see among my active Contacts vacapinta, who joined on August 27th of that year. The idea that the then minor celebrity Donald Trump would become a scifi monster President at the nexus of Philip K. Dick and H.P. Lovecraft was unimaginable then. Well, at least for me then. It's like The Three Stigmata of the Fungi From Yuggoth now. There is no escape.
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on February 18 [7 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 10:03 AM on February 18 [7 favorites]
“Status Report: The Trump Judgments,” Jay Kuo, The Status Kuo, 18 February 2024
I answer common questions about whether, when, and how Trump will satisfy the multiple judgments against him.posted by ob1quixote at 10:13 AM on February 18 [11 favorites]
Maybe he pulls an Aaron Burr and flees the country after his treason trial, later slipping back into the U.S. and adopting a fake name to elude his creditors.
posted by hangashore at 10:31 AM on February 18 [4 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 10:31 AM on February 18 [4 favorites]
Drain your glass (of milk) if you just said "AAWON BUH!" out loud
posted by hangashore at 10:36 AM on February 18 [18 favorites]
posted by hangashore at 10:36 AM on February 18 [18 favorites]
(The gold high-top Trump sneaker (Axios, Trump site) was a limited run of 1,000, and is, I'm told, sold out. There are two other preorder sneaker options.)
posted by box at 11:06 AM on February 18
posted by box at 11:06 AM on February 18
I went to the sneaker website
From their FAQ;
45Footwear is not owned, managed or controlled by Donald J. Trump, The Trump Organization, CIC Ventures LLC or any of their respective principals or affiliates. 45Footwear uses Donald J. Trump's name, likeness and image under paid license from CIC Ventures LLC, which license may be terminated or revoked according to its terms."
Trump Fragrances are expected to start shipping in June 2024. Trump Sneakers are expected to start shipping July 2024 for the gold High-Tops, and the Potus 45 White Knit & Red Wave Knit are expected to ship in August 2024. Shipping and delivery dates are estimates only
There are no refunds. All sales on GetTrumpSneakers.com are final.
--
So it's vapourware. lol
posted by yyz at 11:29 AM on February 18 [9 favorites]
From their FAQ;
45Footwear is not owned, managed or controlled by Donald J. Trump, The Trump Organization, CIC Ventures LLC or any of their respective principals or affiliates. 45Footwear uses Donald J. Trump's name, likeness and image under paid license from CIC Ventures LLC, which license may be terminated or revoked according to its terms."
Trump Fragrances are expected to start shipping in June 2024. Trump Sneakers are expected to start shipping July 2024 for the gold High-Tops, and the Potus 45 White Knit & Red Wave Knit are expected to ship in August 2024. Shipping and delivery dates are estimates only
There are no refunds. All sales on GetTrumpSneakers.com are final.
--
So it's vapourware. lol
posted by yyz at 11:29 AM on February 18 [9 favorites]
So this means he’s broke, right? Whenever he runs out of money he starts hawking cheap merchandise, like the steaks and Trump U. He doesn’t do this crap when the money is rolling in.
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:09 PM on February 18 [7 favorites]
posted by Eddie Mars at 12:09 PM on February 18 [7 favorites]
Trump Fragrances are expected to start shipping in June 2024.
Just when I think that the limits on bad taste have been exceeded, there is a new low. Who TF would want to smell like Trump?
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on February 18 [5 favorites]
Just when I think that the limits on bad taste have been exceeded, there is a new low. Who TF would want to smell like Trump?
posted by Dip Flash at 12:10 PM on February 18 [5 favorites]
Take armpits, ketchup, a butt and makeup and put that all in a blender according to Rep. Adam Kizinger.
posted by y2karl at 1:30 PM on February 18 [7 favorites]
posted by y2karl at 1:30 PM on February 18 [7 favorites]
With a name like "Trump Fragrances" you know it has to smell good...
"Death Camp"
"Mangled Baby Ducks"
And we have come full circle...
EDIT: Death Camp came before Mangled Baby Ducks
posted by Windopaene at 1:33 PM on February 18
"Death Camp"
"Mangled Baby Ducks"
And we have come full circle...
EDIT: Death Camp came before Mangled Baby Ducks
posted by Windopaene at 1:33 PM on February 18
With a name like "Trump Fragrances" you know it has to smell good...
“Summer Horse Grave”
posted by Servo5678 at 4:15 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]
“Summer Horse Grave”
posted by Servo5678 at 4:15 PM on February 18 [1 favorite]
i was able to place into my cart 1000 pairs of the down-ticket trump shoes and got 5% off my order of $199,990.00 but i couldn't remember my credit card security code
posted by glonous keming at 6:10 PM on February 18 [3 favorites]
posted by glonous keming at 6:10 PM on February 18 [3 favorites]
I was thinking that maybe the Supreme Court could compromise and allow the president to commit any crime, but only on President's Day. Kind of like The Purge.
Did anyone else get the feeling that Trump's lawyer arguing that we didn't try Truman for dropping the atomic bombs was Trump saying, hey, I want to drop an A-bomb?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:26 PM on February 18 [4 favorites]
Did anyone else get the feeling that Trump's lawyer arguing that we didn't try Truman for dropping the atomic bombs was Trump saying, hey, I want to drop an A-bomb?
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 9:26 PM on February 18 [4 favorites]
With a name like "Trump Fragrances" you know it has to smell good...
I had a co-worker in about 2017 who once seriously observed, during a discussion of the man, that "I just feel like he looks like he would smell bad." I believe he said, when questioned, that it seemed like it would be a hygiene thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:15 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]
I had a co-worker in about 2017 who once seriously observed, during a discussion of the man, that "I just feel like he looks like he would smell bad." I believe he said, when questioned, that it seemed like it would be a hygiene thing.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:15 AM on February 19 [4 favorites]
Did anyone else get the feeling that Trump's lawyer arguing that we didn't try Truman for dropping the atomic bombs was Trump saying, hey, I want to drop an A-bomb?
I think it's a newer form of cryptic communication. They use false accusations against their opponent to signal their own intentions to any brainwashed followers. They can't just say their thuggery out loud and alarm the fence sitters or admit their crime. But if they wildly accuse the other side of something bad, it translates as permission to do it as well among their thuggish followers.
posted by Brian B. at 9:48 AM on February 19 [2 favorites]
I think it's a newer form of cryptic communication. They use false accusations against their opponent to signal their own intentions to any brainwashed followers. They can't just say their thuggery out loud and alarm the fence sitters or admit their crime. But if they wildly accuse the other side of something bad, it translates as permission to do it as well among their thuggish followers.
posted by Brian B. at 9:48 AM on February 19 [2 favorites]
Servo5678: “Summer Horse Grave”
Hey, that's myluggage combination passphrase, too!
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]
Hey, that's my
posted by wenestvedt at 6:52 AM on February 20 [2 favorites]
> Brian B.: "But if they wildly accuse the other side of something bad, it translates as permission to do it as well among their thuggish followers."
I would add that I believe this phenomenon is not restricted to, say, street-level brownshirt-type activity, e.g.: conservatives railing against "judicial activism" by liberal judges, accusations that Democrats have politicized the DoJ, etc...
posted by mhum at 9:44 AM on February 20 [3 favorites]
I would add that I believe this phenomenon is not restricted to, say, street-level brownshirt-type activity, e.g.: conservatives railing against "judicial activism" by liberal judges, accusations that Democrats have politicized the DoJ, etc...
posted by mhum at 9:44 AM on February 20 [3 favorites]
Conservatives just created a whole school bathroom scare and then beat a kid to death in a school bathroom, the fucking ghouls.
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on February 20 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:16 PM on February 20 [10 favorites]
Breaking:
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on February 20 [14 favorites]
President Joe Biden personally directed his senior campaign aides in recent days to focus more aggressively on former President Donald Trump’s inflammatory comments, according to two sources familiar with the president’s edict./aboutfuckingtime
The thrust of Biden’s direction, delivered to his senior-most staff, was to significantly ramp up the campaign’s efforts to highlight the “crazy s**t” that Trump says in public, according to those sources.
The previously unreported instruction from the president appears to demonstrate that Biden himself believes it is critical to paint his presumptive Republican opponent as unhinged and unfit for office.
posted by Artful Codger at 1:36 PM on February 20 [14 favorites]
Oh they are not just going to pretend the guy has a normal point of view and then triangulate against it? Hallelujah.
posted by Artw at 1:45 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:45 PM on February 20 [8 favorites]
CIC Ventures LLC
I don't know why this is a line in the sand for me, but after everything this feels, to me, like some sort of a new low.
CIC Ventures? Commander-in-Chief Ventures? Really?
posted by gauche at 6:58 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
I don't know why this is a line in the sand for me, but after everything this feels, to me, like some sort of a new low.
CIC Ventures? Commander-in-Chief Ventures? Really?
posted by gauche at 6:58 PM on February 20 [2 favorites]
Fartian Timeslip. Some people say his gubbish is the biggest gubbish.
posted by y2karl at 8:58 PM on February 20
posted by y2karl at 8:58 PM on February 20
From the "That's Not How This Works" file:
Newsweek:
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:58 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
Newsweek:
Donald Trump's attorney requested to propose a new judgment on Wednesday in the former president's civil fraud trial ruling...Clifford Robert filed a letter in the New York City civil court addressed to Engoron which argues Trump was "deprived" of the chance to speak out against the ruling before it was filed.Looks like TFG either doesn't have the money, or hopes this filing puts a stay on the ruled amount?
posted by JoeZydeco at 12:58 PM on February 21 [3 favorites]
From the above:
"According to court records, Roberts requested the chance to propose a "counter-judgment" to Engoron's ruling, adding that it would be "contrary to fundamental fairness" if not allowed to submit a counter-judgment."
This sounds like typical freeman / pseudolegal / vexatious litigant stuff. Maybe they'll lose their license to practice.
posted by mazola at 1:14 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
"According to court records, Roberts requested the chance to propose a "counter-judgment" to Engoron's ruling, adding that it would be "contrary to fundamental fairness" if not allowed to submit a counter-judgment."
This sounds like typical freeman / pseudolegal / vexatious litigant stuff. Maybe they'll lose their license to practice.
posted by mazola at 1:14 PM on February 21 [4 favorites]
[not anything close to a lawyer] the report ORGANIZED PSEUDOLEGAL COMMERCIAL ARGUMENTS AS MAGIC AND CEREMONY [PDF] linked from the article mazola posts above is fascinating reading. someone should do an FPP about OPCA.
posted by glonous keming at 1:29 PM on February 21
posted by glonous keming at 1:29 PM on February 21
Looks like TFG either doesn't have the money, or hopes this filing puts a stay on the ruled amount?
I suspect they’re just setting up their grounds for the appeal.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:50 AM on February 22
I suspect they’re just setting up their grounds for the appeal.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:50 AM on February 22
I suspect they’re just setting up their grounds for the appeal.
Yeah, but it seems since Trump has The Best Lawyers, they would have had the filing pretty much ready by the time the Judge issued his final order so filing the appeal should have happened fairly quickly. I mean literally nothing that happened should have come as a surprise to The Best Lawyers, right? Right?!
posted by mikelieman at 8:25 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but it seems since Trump has The Best Lawyers, they would have had the filing pretty much ready by the time the Judge issued his final order so filing the appeal should have happened fairly quickly. I mean literally nothing that happened should have come as a surprise to The Best Lawyers, right? Right?!
posted by mikelieman at 8:25 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
Newsweek follow up:
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:58 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
"Trump's defense lawyer Clifford Robert accused James' office of being in an "unseemingly rush" to make Engoron sign the final judgment which "violates all accepted practice" in New York state court... "Defendants request the Court stay enforcement of that Judgment for 30 days," Robert wrote."Ray Loewe, who frequently criticizes Trump in social media, added: "This could signify that Trump is having cash flow problems as payment in full or bond posting must be done in 30 days."
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:58 AM on February 22 [4 favorites]
Ha! He is broke! Wonder if he'll be able to take over the RNC in time to keep paying his lawyers. My new prediction: first he files for bankruptcy, then this all ends with him fleeing the country to stay out of prison.
posted by Eddie Mars at 1:31 PM on February 22
posted by Eddie Mars at 1:31 PM on February 22
Engoron has already replied by email with a two line answer: NOPE. The appeals process takes care of this.
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:06 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 2:06 PM on February 22 [5 favorites]
Trump is tossing his house looking for any nuclear secrets left behind. He's got a phone in the other hand telling Putin that he memorized some of confiscated ones and can write it down, should be worth a billion.
posted by Brian B. at 3:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by Brian B. at 3:15 PM on February 22 [1 favorite]
And the fun continues: Trump Tries to Change NY Business Addresses to FL in Fraud Judgment.
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:27 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
posted by JoeZydeco at 8:27 AM on February 23 [5 favorites]
Bless their hearts...
What a lame thing to even try to do. Yeah, that's going to work. Well, Florida, so it might, but...
posted by Windopaene at 10:45 AM on February 23
What a lame thing to even try to do. Yeah, that's going to work. Well, Florida, so it might, but...
posted by Windopaene at 10:45 AM on February 23
Certainly anything legal that goes to Florida goes there to die, but… everyone else knows that too.
posted by Artw at 10:47 AM on February 23
posted by Artw at 10:47 AM on February 23
Sure, it's Trump style. Find a way to make the winner have to sue him again to get the judgment. Repeat as necessary. It only works because nobody is physically going to come seize anything or take money out of his accounts without his cooperation. What are they going to do, jail him for contempt? Haven't so far.
posted by ctmf at 4:33 PM on February 23
posted by ctmf at 4:33 PM on February 23
Trump’s takeover of the RNC will destroy it from within - by Michael Steele, who thinks that’s a bad thing.
I can think of worse outcomes than Trump draining the entire republicans party of cash to pay his bills tbh.
posted by Artw at 6:12 AM on February 24 [2 favorites]
I can think of worse outcomes than Trump draining the entire republicans party of cash to pay his bills tbh.
posted by Artw at 6:12 AM on February 24 [2 favorites]
Trump files a notice of appeal.
The keyword here is 'notice'. The money hasn't shown up yet. So no stay of judgement until that happens.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:41 AM on February 26 [2 favorites]
The keyword here is 'notice'. The money hasn't shown up yet. So no stay of judgement until that happens.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:41 AM on February 26 [2 favorites]
Update!
Trump Offers Court a $100 Million Bond to Pause a $454 Million Judgment (NYT gift link)
Trump Offers Court a $100 Million Bond to Pause a $454 Million Judgment (NYT gift link)
"In seeking relief, Mr. Trump’s lawyers disclosed that they would be unable to secure a bond for the full amount, raising the prospect that he might soon default on the judgment if the appeals court denies his request."posted by JoeZydeco at 10:22 AM on February 28 [8 favorites]
Immediately thought of Michelle Wolf's blistering set at the 2018 White House Correspondents Dinner, where she kept asking the crowd how broke Trump is. I guess we're finding out!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:00 PM on February 28 [3 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:00 PM on February 28 [3 favorites]
CNN:
Former President Donald Trump must come up with the full bond amount to cover the $454 million verdict in the civil fraud trial, an appeals court judge ruled Wednesday.posted by JoeZydeco at 1:15 PM on February 28
Associate Justice Anil Singh, however, lifted a ban on Trump’s ability to obtain loans from a New York bank, which could allow him to access the equity in his assets to back the full bond amount.
Heaven forbid he might have to lose any of his own property...
posted by trig at 1:22 PM on February 28
posted by trig at 1:22 PM on February 28
Folks, you're being silly. Alleged billionaires who are suddenly reduced to abruptly hawking cheap-looking sneakers to raise money are all rolling in dough and doing the shoe gig just for funsies.
Some have made the argument that even Scrooge McDuck couldn't raise that kind of liquid capital on short notice. The counter-argument is, if you are in a trial that you already know that you have lost and that the current proceedings are to determine damages, and you know that the damages will be well into nine figures, and you know that you will need to put up that amount to appeal the ruling, maybe liquidating some assets and making some arrangements might be part of your game plan?
The corollary is that if the Biden campaign doesn't drive the point home HARD that Trump is now compromised (even more than before) beyond repair, in that whomever might "lend" him hundreds of millions of dollars would certainly not do so without expecting a startling return on their investment, frankly, they would deserve to lose.
posted by delfin at 2:29 PM on February 28
Some have made the argument that even Scrooge McDuck couldn't raise that kind of liquid capital on short notice. The counter-argument is, if you are in a trial that you already know that you have lost and that the current proceedings are to determine damages, and you know that the damages will be well into nine figures, and you know that you will need to put up that amount to appeal the ruling, maybe liquidating some assets and making some arrangements might be part of your game plan?
The corollary is that if the Biden campaign doesn't drive the point home HARD that Trump is now compromised (even more than before) beyond repair, in that whomever might "lend" him hundreds of millions of dollars would certainly not do so without expecting a startling return on their investment, frankly, they would deserve to lose.
posted by delfin at 2:29 PM on February 28
in that whomever might "lend" him hundreds of millions of dollars would certainly not do so without expecting a startling return on their investment
Nonsense, they'd just be good solid patriots. (If something as blatant as the Trump Hotel didn't make much difference, why would this.)
posted by trig at 3:33 PM on February 28
Nonsense, they'd just be good solid patriots. (If something as blatant as the Trump Hotel didn't make much difference, why would this.)
posted by trig at 3:33 PM on February 28
For those thinking that his Truth Social going public might give him the billions he needs to get out of trouble: "The co-founders of former president Donald Trump’s media company filed a lawsuit Wednesday, claiming that Trump and other leaders had schemed to deprive them of a stake in the company that could be worth hundreds of millions of dollars." (wapo)
posted by mittens at 7:46 AM on February 29
posted by mittens at 7:46 AM on February 29
> Some have made the argument that even Scrooge McDuck couldn't raise that kind of liquid capital on short notice. The counter-argument is, if you are in a trial that you already know that you have lost and that the current proceedings are to determine damages, and you know that the damages will be well into nine figures, and you know that you will need to put up that amount to appeal the ruling, maybe liquidating some assets and making some arrangements might be part of your game plan?
am i misremembering, or did he literally say he had that much cash on hand while testifying? cause i vaguely remember seeing something along those lines.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:52 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]
am i misremembering, or did he literally say he had that much cash on hand while testifying? cause i vaguely remember seeing something along those lines.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 7:52 AM on February 29 [2 favorites]
am i misremembering, or did he literally say he had that much cash on hand while testifying? cause i vaguely remember seeing something along those lines.
Yep. And the AG turned that right back on him as proof that it would take a large fine, so serves him right for bragging/lying about having all that cash. Maybe he was lying in the deposition (his lips were moving, after all) or maybe he is now claiming to only have the $100 million as an attempt to negotiate the fine downwards, but the initial appeal judge didn't seem very impressed either way.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]
Yep. And the AG turned that right back on him as proof that it would take a large fine, so serves him right for bragging/lying about having all that cash. Maybe he was lying in the deposition (his lips were moving, after all) or maybe he is now claiming to only have the $100 million as an attempt to negotiate the fine downwards, but the initial appeal judge didn't seem very impressed either way.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:59 AM on February 29 [3 favorites]
"So you do have $100 million handy and ready to pay out? Good to know," notes E. Jean Carroll's attorney.
posted by delfin at 8:26 AM on February 29 [4 favorites]
posted by delfin at 8:26 AM on February 29 [4 favorites]
Carroll's lawyers are brilliant, but they didn't go that far in today's response to the court.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:59 AM on February 29 [5 favorites]
"[Trump] simply asks the Court to “trust me” and offers, in a case with an $83.3 million judgment against him, the court filing equivalent of a paper napkin; signed by the least trustworthy of borrowers"Still, a great read.
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:59 AM on February 29 [5 favorites]
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