Why Can’t People Be Normal About Sydney Sweeney?
March 8, 2024 2:50 PM Subscribe
To be born beautiful is a gift, but to end up hot can be a curse. If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is also true that you can look in the mirror and be the beholder of yourself. Beauty is something intriguing; “beauty is not a need but an ecstasy,” the poet Kahlil Gibran once wrote. “A heart enflamed and a soul enchanted.” This is not the same thing as being hot.
"Someone else declares you hot, for one thing, according to standards set at large: by the culture, by society, by (generally) those who can afford to be picky. Beauty is the je ne sais quoi that makes an image linger, even if just for one person or one night; it is elusive and strange. Hot is simpler, a decision made in the shopping part of the brain.
Fortunately and tragically for Sydney Sweeney, she is both. She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days. She has a rack so perfect that it kicked up an absolute shitstorm of takes just by existing.
Last weekend, Sweeney hosted Saturday Night Live. It’s hard to say how she performed; the writers did not give her much to work with. Similarly to Jacob Elordi’s appearance earlier this year, most of the sketches were about her being hot. (In Elordi's appearance, for example, one misguided sketch had women attempting to get Elordi drunk, at an AA meeting, in order to sleep with him.)
. . .
If we continue to imbue people's bodies, or just parts of people's bodies, with deep symbolic meaning connected to the failure or success of political agendas, we are doomed to a kind of isolated, individual politics. The individual—in this case, Sydney Sweeney—can never be the center of any successful political movement. That sort of thing is collective by its nature, in the same way that breasts are a part of a human body.
That creepy desire to sever that human wholeness and reattach it to some pre-fabricated mission or gripe is, to me, the crux of this whole stupid discourse. It is normal to be horny, but no one is being normal here. Your horny feelings are for you, or maybe to text a friend. It is, among other things, a waste to make them indicative of some greater trend, or a condemnation of a political stance, or to otherwise put them to work to such petty ends. Your horniness is too valuable for that, and it's yours alone. "
"Someone else declares you hot, for one thing, according to standards set at large: by the culture, by society, by (generally) those who can afford to be picky. Beauty is the je ne sais quoi that makes an image linger, even if just for one person or one night; it is elusive and strange. Hot is simpler, a decision made in the shopping part of the brain.
Fortunately and tragically for Sydney Sweeney, she is both. She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days. She has a rack so perfect that it kicked up an absolute shitstorm of takes just by existing.
Last weekend, Sweeney hosted Saturday Night Live. It’s hard to say how she performed; the writers did not give her much to work with. Similarly to Jacob Elordi’s appearance earlier this year, most of the sketches were about her being hot. (In Elordi's appearance, for example, one misguided sketch had women attempting to get Elordi drunk, at an AA meeting, in order to sleep with him.)
. . .
If we continue to imbue people's bodies, or just parts of people's bodies, with deep symbolic meaning connected to the failure or success of political agendas, we are doomed to a kind of isolated, individual politics. The individual—in this case, Sydney Sweeney—can never be the center of any successful political movement. That sort of thing is collective by its nature, in the same way that breasts are a part of a human body.
That creepy desire to sever that human wholeness and reattach it to some pre-fabricated mission or gripe is, to me, the crux of this whole stupid discourse. It is normal to be horny, but no one is being normal here. Your horny feelings are for you, or maybe to text a friend. It is, among other things, a waste to make them indicative of some greater trend, or a condemnation of a political stance, or to otherwise put them to work to such petty ends. Your horniness is too valuable for that, and it's yours alone. "
I bet Sweeney loves reading articles like this.
Why exactly are we discussing people's bodies?
posted by hippybear at 3:09 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
Why exactly are we discussing people's bodies?
posted by hippybear at 3:09 PM on March 8 [20 favorites]
It's worth noting (and the article kind of glancingly mentions) that Sweeney can also be reasonably assumed to be something of a conservative, or at least her family is, she's described her family as "religious", they live in rural Idaho, and there was that whole birthday party with red Trump-like hats thing, after which she was defended by actual nazi blonde Tomi Lahren, and which also involved a Blue Lives Matter shirt. Which is not to say that this makes her deserve the weird body focus, but I think there's a little more to why a certain strain of conservative is trying to embrace her than just "boobs are anti-woke".
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:18 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:18 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
That may be - but literally the whole conversation was about her boobs, which "my dude, we're nearly 50 - seriously"
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:22 PM on March 8
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:22 PM on March 8
Am grateful that the first thing I saw Ms. Sweeney in was the unbelievably tense, blackly comic “hiding in the bathtub” scene of Euphoria. For me, she is an actor first.
posted by infinitewindow at 3:24 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
posted by infinitewindow at 3:24 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
Be the boob you want to see, I guess
posted by chavenet at 3:25 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 3:25 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
In Slate today:
The Far Right Thinks Sydney Sweeney Killed Wokeness: Cause of death? Her boobs. (archive)
posted by ShooBoo at 3:29 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
The Far Right Thinks Sydney Sweeney Killed Wokeness: Cause of death? Her boobs. (archive)
posted by ShooBoo at 3:29 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
Marie Le Conte's email this morning covers body image, nervous reactions to losing weight, and ofc Sydney Sweeney's tits (substack, scroll past the Dune stuff).
What is fun about fancying Sydney Sweeney is that it feels obvious and uncomplicated. You don’t have to think about anything political when you’re staring at her cleavage. You’re not trying to contextualise your desire, question the societal forces that have made you look at a certain person a certain way, or have some big thoughts about anything at all. The thinking goes: big tits - blonde gal - awooga! It’s straightforward, back-to-basics horniness.posted by Klipspringer at 3:40 PM on March 8 [4 favorites]
It doesn’t quite mean defeat, but certainly should be treated as a warning shot to feminists and our fellow travellers. We’ve made sex boring! It’s true. We have. We’ve taken a thing that most people enjoy and, in trying to make it something that even women can really like, turned it into something worth endlessly agonising over.
scroll past the Dune stuff
I'd recommend not scrolling past the Dune stuff, because it's very funny.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:49 PM on March 8
I'd recommend not scrolling past the Dune stuff, because it's very funny.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 3:49 PM on March 8
Is she really that much of a subject of conversation at the moment? Not trying to dis her at all, she's probably cool for all I know. I've never seen her act in anything though.
I mean it does seem to happen to me more frequently, that everyone seems to be having a conversation that I haven't heard of, based on premises that I don't understand.
Premise of conversation: "She's objectively, amazingly hot! Let's discuss what this says about our culture."
Me: "Uh... she's pretty, but not really my type. I guess I'll just go sit over there... and be normal about her or something."
posted by Alex404 at 3:50 PM on March 8 [18 favorites]
I mean it does seem to happen to me more frequently, that everyone seems to be having a conversation that I haven't heard of, based on premises that I don't understand.
Premise of conversation: "She's objectively, amazingly hot! Let's discuss what this says about our culture."
Me: "Uh... she's pretty, but not really my type. I guess I'll just go sit over there... and be normal about her or something."
posted by Alex404 at 3:50 PM on March 8 [18 favorites]
I literally can't remember what Sydney Sweeney looks like other than "yet another generic hot blonde chick." I haven't seen her in any of the above things so that's probably why, but I'm not sure I get why the excitement, unless they're hoping she's MAGA like Taylor Swift turned not to be.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:55 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:55 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
I am Not A Sports Person and I subscribed to Defector last week because the writing is just that good. I don’t care too much about Sydney Sweeney or what MAGA weirdos are on about this week but the writing was very well done.
posted by youthenrage at 4:05 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 4:05 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
As someone born short and troll-like, I’d happily accept the downsides of hotness.
posted by ryanshepard at 4:13 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 4:13 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Some people just are really attractive. It's weird, right? Your brain just goes offline. I think that as bombarded with stimuli as we all are in the digital age, it's kind of remarkable, even reassuring, that a person looking good can rivet your attention. We're still humans! That's nice. Just don't make it weird, man!
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:19 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:19 PM on March 8 [6 favorites]
My initial glance of the main site while scrolling on my phone combined this post and the one below it into “why can’t people be normal about George Santos” and it was a very strange moment
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:20 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
posted by AdamCSnider at 4:20 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
Some of you do realize that being "weird" about a person's looks doesn't just apply to the slobbering horndogs, but also to the people who feel the need to announce to the entire room "Meh, I'm not seeing it" or "Ew, too generic for my tastes..."
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:28 PM on March 8 [36 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:28 PM on March 8 [36 favorites]
If you think about the Roman Empire more often than you think about Sydney Sweeney, is that normal?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:42 PM on March 8 [24 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:42 PM on March 8 [24 favorites]
Why Can’t People Be Normal About Sydney Sweeney?
because "millions of people ambivalent about $topic" doesn't generate clicks?
i'm extremely normal about Sydney Sweeney but nobody cares about that
posted by glonous keming at 4:48 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
because "millions of people ambivalent about $topic" doesn't generate clicks?
i'm extremely normal about Sydney Sweeney but nobody cares about that
posted by glonous keming at 4:48 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
Who says SNL isn’t still important
posted by Wood at 4:54 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
posted by Wood at 4:54 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
i'm extremely normal about Sydney Sweeney but nobody cares about that
This is the second FPP about what Sydney Sweeney says about us as a nation, and I still have like zero opinion of her.
posted by mark k at 5:08 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
This is the second FPP about what Sydney Sweeney says about us as a nation, and I still have like zero opinion of her.
posted by mark k at 5:08 PM on March 8 [7 favorites]
I am aware of her basically through this lens, since no writer can be normal about her either. It's really sucky and sad to know this young woman is seen as a pair of talking boobs by the media. I haven't seen Euphoria, I haven't seen the romcom with that white guy who is everywhere but his name never sticks, but I did like that article about her in Defector about the difference between television actor payment back then as to now.
posted by Kitteh at 5:16 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:16 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
This whole thing reminds me of when Kate Upton did the Dougie in the stands at a Clippers game and everyone went nuts for her breasts. Or some other time a pretty white woman with breasts danced in the stands at another game. Can’t remember her name offhand. It seems to push some mythic button in people’s brains. The modern Venus of Willendorf
posted by Peach at 5:19 PM on March 8
posted by Peach at 5:19 PM on March 8
"If we continue to imbue people's bodies, or just parts of people's bodies, with deep symbolic meaning connected to the failure or success of political agendas, we are doomed to a kind of isolated, individual politics."
Well someone is staunchly against Nelwyn pick the magic finger selection process for apprenticeship
posted by Jacen at 5:23 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Well someone is staunchly against Nelwyn pick the magic finger selection process for apprenticeship
posted by Jacen at 5:23 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
connected to the failure or success of political agendas, we are doomed to a kind of isolated, individual politics.
"Don't cry for me Agrippina"
posted by clavdivs at 5:50 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
"Don't cry for me Agrippina"
posted by clavdivs at 5:50 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
By coincidence, we actually watched SNL for the first time in many years last weekend (well the first hour anyway). The skits were boring. Actually, had never even heard of SS before? She reminded me a bit of Paris Hilton (generic polished skinny TV blonde) but without Paris' subtle self awareness as an objectified commodity.
posted by ovvl at 5:59 PM on March 8
posted by ovvl at 5:59 PM on March 8
hippybear: "Why exactly are we discussing people's bodies?"
Just wanted to keep this question front and center.
posted by signal at 5:59 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
Just wanted to keep this question front and center.
posted by signal at 5:59 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
Klipspringer quoted from Marie Le Conte:
posted by It is regrettable that at 6:05 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
It doesn’t quite mean defeat, but certainly should be treated as a warning shot to feminists and our fellow travellers. We’ve made sex boring! It’s true. We have. We’ve taken a thing that most people enjoy and, in trying to make it something that even women can really like, turned it into something worth endlessly agonising over.I'm kind of mystified by this. The quoted article goes on to say:
What I am beginning to inch towards, however, is some form of middle-ground. Maybe, just maybe, it is true that we’ve been banging on about it all in a way that has become off-putting to many. Maybe not everything always has to be very complex. … Similarly, we should probably be able to reckon with the fact that we fought and mostly lost, on the bodies front. We tried to will a better society into being and I mean sure, things are better than they were in the noughties but, overall, we didn’t quite get there.It's fair to argue that the text I elided with … contextualizes the point, but, even so, the main argument seems to be: there's no way to make men treat women decently, so we shouldn't try, and it's uncomfortable even to talk about it, so we should stop. We didn't completely succeed in letting women value their bodies, so we shouldn't try. I'm coming to this from the point of view of someone who's unfamiliar with the essayist, so am happy to get more context that will help me understand. Is that really what they're saying? Is it a point with which others agree?
posted by It is regrettable that at 6:05 PM on March 8 [11 favorites]
"Don't cry for me Agrippina"
posted by clavdivs
😾
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:07 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
posted by clavdivs
😾
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:07 PM on March 8 [3 favorites]
In Salon:
Sydney Sweeney is beautiful now, and would be considered so in any era. But because she’s no longer the only type of woman who’s considered beautiful, certain people on the right think they’re being oppressed and the world has gone to hell.posted by fncll at 6:11 PM on March 8 [18 favorites]
Some people just are really attractive. It's weird, right? Your brain just goes offline. I think that as bombarded with stimuli as we all are in the digital age, it's kind of remarkable, even reassuring, that a person looking good can rivet your attention. We're still humans! That's nice. Just don't make it weird, man!
There are people who I certainly find that attractive. But there are also people like Sweeney who I recognize as objectively attractive, but don't find personally attractive, if that makes sense.
But regardless of one's personal hotness ideals, it's weird to focus so much on her breasts, especially her breasts as a synecdoche.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
There are people who I certainly find that attractive. But there are also people like Sweeney who I recognize as objectively attractive, but don't find personally attractive, if that makes sense.
But regardless of one's personal hotness ideals, it's weird to focus so much on her breasts, especially her breasts as a synecdoche.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:18 PM on March 8 [9 favorites]
I don't think feminism has ever said "you can't find a Conventionally Hot Woman attractive"?
All kinds of people can attract you, it's...fine?
I can't believe anyone is still doing CHECKMATE FEMINISM, but anyway, like what you like. And don't be weird and creepy to people that attract you.
posted by emjaybee at 6:19 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
All kinds of people can attract you, it's...fine?
I can't believe anyone is still doing CHECKMATE FEMINISM, but anyway, like what you like. And don't be weird and creepy to people that attract you.
posted by emjaybee at 6:19 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
"If we continue to imbue people's bodies, or just parts of people's bodies, with deep symbolic meaning connected to the failure or success of political agendas, we are doomed to a kind of isolated, individual politics."
Trump's hands...Trump's hands....Trump's hands....
because she’s no longer the only type of woman who’s considered beautiful, certain people on the right think they’re being oppressed
Exactly. The reason why in this particular moment people (collectively, as pointed out plenty of people as individuals can do so) can't be normal about Sydney Sweeney is the same reason why people couldn't be normal about Gettysburg, Pennsylvania in early July of 1863. It's not about her per se, she's just the ground two bands of culture warriors have run into each other on, fresh off their last fight atop Taylor Swift's love life.
We didn't completely succeed in letting women value their bodies, so we shouldn't try. I'm coming to this from the point of view of someone who's unfamiliar with the essayist, so am happy to get more context that will help me understand. Is that really what they're saying? Is it a point with which others agree?
I don't think that's what they're saying. I think they're referencing the fact that a sizeable chunk of folks associate/experience this process not with letting women finally value their bodies but in replacing patriarchal policing of their bodies with a new ideologically-driven self-policing, applied to both men and women, which in turn makes sex into a source of new shames and anxieties to replace the traditional ones. And I think there is some truth to that, but that idea in vastly exaggerated form also plays a role in the rhetoric used regularly by people who desperately do want to go back to women not being allowed to value their bodies at all. So hearing alarm bells is a perfectly reasonable response.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:36 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Trump's hands...Trump's hands....Trump's hands....
because she’s no longer the only type of woman who’s considered beautiful, certain people on the right think they’re being oppressed
Exactly. The reason why in this particular moment people (collectively, as pointed out plenty of people as individuals can do so) can't be normal about Sydney Sweeney is the same reason why people couldn't be normal about Gettysburg, Pennsylvania in early July of 1863. It's not about her per se, she's just the ground two bands of culture warriors have run into each other on, fresh off their last fight atop Taylor Swift's love life.
We didn't completely succeed in letting women value their bodies, so we shouldn't try. I'm coming to this from the point of view of someone who's unfamiliar with the essayist, so am happy to get more context that will help me understand. Is that really what they're saying? Is it a point with which others agree?
I don't think that's what they're saying. I think they're referencing the fact that a sizeable chunk of folks associate/experience this process not with letting women finally value their bodies but in replacing patriarchal policing of their bodies with a new ideologically-driven self-policing, applied to both men and women, which in turn makes sex into a source of new shames and anxieties to replace the traditional ones. And I think there is some truth to that, but that idea in vastly exaggerated form also plays a role in the rhetoric used regularly by people who desperately do want to go back to women not being allowed to value their bodies at all. So hearing alarm bells is a perfectly reasonable response.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:36 PM on March 8 [5 favorites]
Maybe the SNL writers should have just stolen an "Anchorman" joke and be done with it.
"Ladies and gentlemen, Tits McGee!"
"Tits McGee is off tonight, I'm Sydney Sweeney."
posted by Marky at 6:40 PM on March 8
"Ladies and gentlemen, Tits McGee!"
"Tits McGee is off tonight, I'm Sydney Sweeney."
posted by Marky at 6:40 PM on March 8
AdamCSnider, thanks for the thoughts, with which I am much more comfortable than my original reading of the quote.
posted by It is regrettable that at 7:08 PM on March 8
posted by It is regrettable that at 7:08 PM on March 8
It's not about her per se, she's just the ground two bands of culture warriors have run into each other on, fresh off their last fight atop Taylor Swift's love life.
There are no “two bands” of culture warriors. There’s the cultural right, and its media ecosystem, and its fever dream of what America is.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:37 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
There are no “two bands” of culture warriors. There’s the cultural right, and its media ecosystem, and its fever dream of what America is.
posted by mr_roboto at 7:37 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
There are no “two bands” of culture warriors.
When it comes to this kind of culture war, I'm entirely inclined to agree.
There is the culture, and there is a group that makes declarations of war against aspects of that culture. There is no side against that side making war declarations, there is simply the culture. Taylor Swift simply has a love life. That a group decided to bitch loudly about it in media doesn't mean there's another side doing anything against that group. They're just railing against it because it exists. This holds true for all the other matters of this particular kind of culture war. There is no two side. There is simply the existence of a thing, and the group that hates the thing.
posted by hippybear at 7:41 PM on March 8 [16 favorites]
When it comes to this kind of culture war, I'm entirely inclined to agree.
There is the culture, and there is a group that makes declarations of war against aspects of that culture. There is no side against that side making war declarations, there is simply the culture. Taylor Swift simply has a love life. That a group decided to bitch loudly about it in media doesn't mean there's another side doing anything against that group. They're just railing against it because it exists. This holds true for all the other matters of this particular kind of culture war. There is no two side. There is simply the existence of a thing, and the group that hates the thing.
posted by hippybear at 7:41 PM on March 8 [16 favorites]
She reminded me a bit of Paris Hilton (generic polished skinny TV blonde) but without Paris' subtle self awareness as an objectified commodity.
Nothing against Ms. Hilton at all, but what an odd and limiting description of Sydney Sweeney who is an accomplished actress with several great performances in well-received projects under her belt.
posted by The Gooch at 7:56 PM on March 8 [27 favorites]
Nothing against Ms. Hilton at all, but what an odd and limiting description of Sydney Sweeney who is an accomplished actress with several great performances in well-received projects under her belt.
posted by The Gooch at 7:56 PM on March 8 [27 favorites]
There is the culture, and there is a group that makes declarations of war against aspects of that culture. There is no side against that side making war declarations, there is simply the culture.
I disagree, but maybe I just didn't state my case clearly - I see the author of the linked article, as well as Marie Le Conte, are both participating in a conflict over what this whole Sydney Sweeney means or should mean (making declarations, as you say), over against the conservatives they cite who are interpreting it as a sign of rebellion against, and the failure of, what they call wokism. That's what I meant about "two bands". I agree that Sydney Sweeney and Taylor Swift are just living their lives, and that the fight was initiated on the cultural conservative side. But there are definitely two sides to this fight, even if one side is reacting to the aggression of the other. To pursue my metaphor perhaps beyond it's shelf life, the Union army at Gettysburg was reacting to an invasion, after all, but they were still an army and they were still actively fighting.
Anyway, I'll call it a night at that and maybe take a break from my Battle Cry of Freedom re-read.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:06 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
I disagree, but maybe I just didn't state my case clearly - I see the author of the linked article, as well as Marie Le Conte, are both participating in a conflict over what this whole Sydney Sweeney means or should mean (making declarations, as you say), over against the conservatives they cite who are interpreting it as a sign of rebellion against, and the failure of, what they call wokism. That's what I meant about "two bands". I agree that Sydney Sweeney and Taylor Swift are just living their lives, and that the fight was initiated on the cultural conservative side. But there are definitely two sides to this fight, even if one side is reacting to the aggression of the other. To pursue my metaphor perhaps beyond it's shelf life, the Union army at Gettysburg was reacting to an invasion, after all, but they were still an army and they were still actively fighting.
Anyway, I'll call it a night at that and maybe take a break from my Battle Cry of Freedom re-read.
posted by AdamCSnider at 8:06 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]
Last weekend, Sweeney hosted Saturday Night Live. It’s hard to say how she performed; the writers did not give her much to work with.
This seems unfair from the author. If she was given little to do, it might have less to do with her hotness and more to do with the fact that she's completely untested in live television and sketch comedy.
By comparison, Emma Stone and Taylor Swift -- two women of well-acknowledged pulchritude -- have proven they have the chops for live TV and been given bigger roles in sketches.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:27 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
This seems unfair from the author. If she was given little to do, it might have less to do with her hotness and more to do with the fact that she's completely untested in live television and sketch comedy.
By comparison, Emma Stone and Taylor Swift -- two women of well-acknowledged pulchritude -- have proven they have the chops for live TV and been given bigger roles in sketches.
posted by The Pluto Gangsta at 8:27 PM on March 8 [2 favorites]
I don't think we were, as a culture, ever in any great danger of rejecting hot 20-something blonde women with big breasts. Cultural conservatives can call that a win for their side if they want to, but to me it's a little like Joe Biden taking credit for ice cream sales.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:28 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:28 PM on March 8 [15 favorites]
We’ve made sex boring! It’s true. We have. We’ve taken a thing that most people enjoy and, in trying to make it something that even women can really like, turned it into something worth endlessly agonising over.
The idea that feminism could make sex boring, like, culture-wide, is just...silly. Essayist, maybe stop reading the oppo for a while, you seem to lack the mental toughness not to let them set the terms for you. (Also, that last sentence is so poorly constructed. Do women not count as "most people?" Or is she implying that most women happily "enjoyed" sex back in the days of marital rape but in clawing for those last few bits of "really liking" sex they fumbled the bag completely? Either way, yikes.)
that idea in vastly exaggerated form also plays a role in the rhetoric used regularly by people who desperately do want to go back to women not being allowed to value their bodies at all. So hearing alarm bells is a perfectly reasonable response.
Or...let's not endorse this idea! If you can smell the bad-faith stench on the framing of an idea, then don't use it, even if you think it accidentally happens to address something you think is true. We are too old to fall for this stuff! It's like letting literal Great Replacement Theory-endorser Elise Stefanik define what's wrong with our universities.
because she’s no longer the only type of woman who’s considered beautiful, certain people on the right think they’re being oppressed and the world has gone to hell
If you can't impose your preferences on the whole world, are you even really a white man?
posted by praemunire at 8:46 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
The idea that feminism could make sex boring, like, culture-wide, is just...silly. Essayist, maybe stop reading the oppo for a while, you seem to lack the mental toughness not to let them set the terms for you. (Also, that last sentence is so poorly constructed. Do women not count as "most people?" Or is she implying that most women happily "enjoyed" sex back in the days of marital rape but in clawing for those last few bits of "really liking" sex they fumbled the bag completely? Either way, yikes.)
that idea in vastly exaggerated form also plays a role in the rhetoric used regularly by people who desperately do want to go back to women not being allowed to value their bodies at all. So hearing alarm bells is a perfectly reasonable response.
Or...let's not endorse this idea! If you can smell the bad-faith stench on the framing of an idea, then don't use it, even if you think it accidentally happens to address something you think is true. We are too old to fall for this stuff! It's like letting literal Great Replacement Theory-endorser Elise Stefanik define what's wrong with our universities.
because she’s no longer the only type of woman who’s considered beautiful, certain people on the right think they’re being oppressed and the world has gone to hell
If you can't impose your preferences on the whole world, are you even really a white man?
posted by praemunire at 8:46 PM on March 8 [14 favorites]
I think she's being sarcastic, not actually endorsing the idean that feminism made sex boring.
posted by Carillon at 9:20 PM on March 8
posted by Carillon at 9:20 PM on March 8
Mod note: One removed. It seems like this should be obvious, but misogyny, sexism, slut-shaming are all against the rules here.
posted by taz (staff) at 10:46 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 10:46 PM on March 8 [10 favorites]
Kelsey McKinney is one of the strongest essayists working anywhere right now but I think that piece is a bit muddled and goes off on tangents of little value.
I think the problem is that McKinney is still partway through the process of reconciling her strong sexual attraction for Sydney Sweeney with the facts that the loudest people that share that attraction are weird chuds and Sweeney probably having bad politics.
McKinney wrote a better essay a year back about how Sweeney fits into hollywood here.
posted by zymil at 1:51 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I think the problem is that McKinney is still partway through the process of reconciling her strong sexual attraction for Sydney Sweeney with the facts that the loudest people that share that attraction are weird chuds and Sweeney probably having bad politics.
McKinney wrote a better essay a year back about how Sweeney fits into hollywood here.
posted by zymil at 1:51 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
> Kelsey McKinney is one of the strongest essayists working anywhere right now
"Fortunately and tragically for Sydney Sweeney, she is both. She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days. She has a rack so perfect that it kicked up an absolute shitstorm of takes just by existing."
I think you're confusing "essayist" with "gossip columnist".
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 5:06 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
"Fortunately and tragically for Sydney Sweeney, she is both. She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days. She has a rack so perfect that it kicked up an absolute shitstorm of takes just by existing."
I think you're confusing "essayist" with "gossip columnist".
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 5:06 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
This is all weird.
posted by mumimor at 5:16 AM on March 9 [12 favorites]
posted by mumimor at 5:16 AM on March 9 [12 favorites]
I think you're confusing "essayist" with "gossip columnist".
No, she is a fantastic essayist. I don't think this piece is as good as this one, but they're both excellent considerations of their topics.
Re: whether she is a gossip columnist, well...from the article's conclusion:
"That creepy desire to sever that human wholeness and reattach it to some pre-fabricated mission or gripe is, to me, the crux of this whole stupid discourse. It is normal to be horny, but no one is being normal here. Your horny feelings are for you, or maybe to text a friend. It is, among other things, a waste to make them indicative of some greater trend, or a condemnation of a political stance, or to otherwise put them to work to such petty ends. Your horniness is too valuable for that, and it's yours alone."
If you get this far and think it's just about celebrity gossip, or even if you don't get this far, then there's something standing between you and this piece somewhere.
posted by billjings at 5:45 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
No, she is a fantastic essayist. I don't think this piece is as good as this one, but they're both excellent considerations of their topics.
Re: whether she is a gossip columnist, well...from the article's conclusion:
"That creepy desire to sever that human wholeness and reattach it to some pre-fabricated mission or gripe is, to me, the crux of this whole stupid discourse. It is normal to be horny, but no one is being normal here. Your horny feelings are for you, or maybe to text a friend. It is, among other things, a waste to make them indicative of some greater trend, or a condemnation of a political stance, or to otherwise put them to work to such petty ends. Your horniness is too valuable for that, and it's yours alone."
If you get this far and think it's just about celebrity gossip, or even if you don't get this far, then there's something standing between you and this piece somewhere.
posted by billjings at 5:45 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
The idea that feminism could make sex boring, like, culture-wide, is just...silly. Essayist, maybe stop reading the oppo for a while, you seem to lack the mental toughness not to let them set the terms for you. (Also, that last sentence is so poorly constructed. Do women not count as "most people?" Or is she implying that most women happily "enjoyed" sex back in the days of marital rape but in clawing for those last few bits of "really liking" sex they fumbled the bag completely? Either way, yikes.)
I noticed that moment in the essay for the same reason you highlight. Speaking purely personally, in my life feminism has led to better sex and better relationships, not worse. An old-school relationship where your partner is repressed, unable to express their desires, and unable to remove consent sounds terrible for everyone. But I'm biased, since I have only ever dated women who identified as feminists and that was always just sort of the background milieu, so I can't claim to have ever tried a "non-feminist" relationship model.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
I noticed that moment in the essay for the same reason you highlight. Speaking purely personally, in my life feminism has led to better sex and better relationships, not worse. An old-school relationship where your partner is repressed, unable to express their desires, and unable to remove consent sounds terrible for everyone. But I'm biased, since I have only ever dated women who identified as feminists and that was always just sort of the background milieu, so I can't claim to have ever tried a "non-feminist" relationship model.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:09 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
It is weird to hear how this person has so much cultural impact. This FPP is the first time I have hear of her.
I know I am not aggressively in the loop, but I have not heard a single conversation about this offline.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:34 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
I know I am not aggressively in the loop, but I have not heard a single conversation about this offline.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:34 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
I didn’t remember her name, or know what she performed in, but I have seen multiple pictures of her boobs next to headlines with the word ‘woke’ in them this week.
posted by bq at 7:58 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:58 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
I once made a comment here that was about my experience with this very same topic.
posted by Stanczyk at 8:35 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
posted by Stanczyk at 8:35 AM on March 9 [1 favorite]
Boobs is a woody sort of word, not tinny like tits, winkle or vibraphone.
posted by whatevernot at 9:22 AM on March 9 [8 favorites]
posted by whatevernot at 9:22 AM on March 9 [8 favorites]
It's worth noting (and the article kind of glancingly mentions) that Sweeney can also be reasonably assumed to be something of a conservative, or at least her family is, she's described her family as "religious", they live in rural Idaho, and there was that whole birthday party with red Trump-like hats thing, after which she was defended by actual nazi blonde Tomi Lahren, and which also involved a Blue Lives Matter shirt. Which is not to say that this makes her deserve the weird body focus, but I think there's a little more to why a certain strain of conservative is trying to embrace her than just "boobs are anti-woke".
I totally agree with this. A subtext to this discussion is how white supremacists embraced Taylor Swift as an Aryan goddess, but Taylor deliberately rejected those fans with the statement "White supremacy is repulsive. There is nothing worse." In this respect, this anti-woke embrace of Sydney Sweeney is due to right-wing cultural warriors grasping desperately for another white woman that they can uphold as the anti-Taylor Swift, especially after they got big mad when Taylor's boyfriend's team won the Super Bowl.
posted by jonp72 at 9:31 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
I totally agree with this. A subtext to this discussion is how white supremacists embraced Taylor Swift as an Aryan goddess, but Taylor deliberately rejected those fans with the statement "White supremacy is repulsive. There is nothing worse." In this respect, this anti-woke embrace of Sydney Sweeney is due to right-wing cultural warriors grasping desperately for another white woman that they can uphold as the anti-Taylor Swift, especially after they got big mad when Taylor's boyfriend's team won the Super Bowl.
posted by jonp72 at 9:31 AM on March 9 [4 favorites]
I think you're confusing "essayist" with "gossip columnist".
I think in our desire not to casually reduce women to sex objects, or to subject women to standards of scrutiny not applied to men, or even just to be polite and not discuss random strangers' bodies without consent--all good aims!--we can forget that people are, in fact, embodied, and there are valid and appropriate forms of cultural criticism that address how we build meaning around that. This turn in the essay feels a little distorted by the writer's wish to show she's not one of those "Make Sex Boring Again" feminists, but at the same time she is talking about an actual cultural phenomenon driven in part by how Sweeney looks and presents herself.
posted by praemunire at 9:38 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
I think in our desire not to casually reduce women to sex objects, or to subject women to standards of scrutiny not applied to men, or even just to be polite and not discuss random strangers' bodies without consent--all good aims!--we can forget that people are, in fact, embodied, and there are valid and appropriate forms of cultural criticism that address how we build meaning around that. This turn in the essay feels a little distorted by the writer's wish to show she's not one of those "Make Sex Boring Again" feminists, but at the same time she is talking about an actual cultural phenomenon driven in part by how Sweeney looks and presents herself.
posted by praemunire at 9:38 AM on March 9 [3 favorites]
Women's bodies are still treated as a commodity. Maybe she opts in to that but it's still skeevy AF. The defector article opts in to objectifying really hard, I'm sorry it's been given more traction here.
Is she a good actor?
posted by theora55 at 9:56 AM on March 9
Is she a good actor?
posted by theora55 at 9:56 AM on March 9
Highly recommend the movie Reality, where she plays Reality Winner being interrogated by the FBI.
posted by officer_fred at 9:59 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
posted by officer_fred at 9:59 AM on March 9 [2 favorites]
The reactionary anti-boob decades that followed the Clinton-era breast augmentation period seem to be coming to a close.
This does not seem reality-based, at all. Breast augmentations were extremely popular in the early 2010's, far more so than in the 90s. In 1997 there were 101,176 breast augmentation surgeries; in 2012 there were 355,671. Has this person never heard of the Kardashians? I'm really surprised that this essay leaves them out because their body augmentation has gone through some culturally interesting changes, with physical characteristics that are perceived in a racial way playing a significant part. I highly recommend Kimberly Nicole Foster's video about what these changes reflect in terms of capital, perception and goals. I think it's important if one is looking at the reaction to Sidney Sweeney's body by conservatives to realize that this is *entirely* about Sweeney being perceived as white* by these people.
*yes, she is white. But so is Kim Kardashian. Kim Kardashian was not interested in appealing to the white male gaze at the time she was breaking the internet (this essay is very good at explaining the concept of blackfishing, though it leaves out the part about how when your quest for capital has a different goal, white women can choose to be "white" again).
posted by oneirodynia at 10:56 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
This does not seem reality-based, at all. Breast augmentations were extremely popular in the early 2010's, far more so than in the 90s. In 1997 there were 101,176 breast augmentation surgeries; in 2012 there were 355,671. Has this person never heard of the Kardashians? I'm really surprised that this essay leaves them out because their body augmentation has gone through some culturally interesting changes, with physical characteristics that are perceived in a racial way playing a significant part. I highly recommend Kimberly Nicole Foster's video about what these changes reflect in terms of capital, perception and goals. I think it's important if one is looking at the reaction to Sidney Sweeney's body by conservatives to realize that this is *entirely* about Sweeney being perceived as white* by these people.
*yes, she is white. But so is Kim Kardashian. Kim Kardashian was not interested in appealing to the white male gaze at the time she was breaking the internet (this essay is very good at explaining the concept of blackfishing, though it leaves out the part about how when your quest for capital has a different goal, white women can choose to be "white" again).
posted by oneirodynia at 10:56 AM on March 9 [5 favorites]
in my head, the title of the FP article is just what the editor thought when they finished reading.
She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days.
please stop.
posted by ZaphodB at 12:05 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
She has a face like a grown-up Anne Geddes baby and legs that go for days.
please stop.
posted by ZaphodB at 12:05 PM on March 9 [3 favorites]
From a distance, this looks like the collective unconscious feeling around for the next sacrificial victim in pop culture. Pretty, but sexy. Making money, but not independent. Famous, but not connected. Maybe we can get our teeth in this one.
posted by clew at 12:06 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
posted by clew at 12:06 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
Is she a good actor?
From the shows I've seen her in, yes, she is very good. You wouldn't know that from this piece or any of the weird "let's focus on her breasts" MAGA stuff, but she is legitimately good at her profession and has received critical recognition.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:15 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
From the shows I've seen her in, yes, she is very good. You wouldn't know that from this piece or any of the weird "let's focus on her breasts" MAGA stuff, but she is legitimately good at her profession and has received critical recognition.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:15 PM on March 9 [1 favorite]
This does not seem reality-based, at all. Breast augmentations were extremely popular in the early 2010's, far more so than in the 90s.
It's hard to understand that statement when Megan thee Stallion and Cardi B. have made millions off in recent years of, among other things, looking like literal blow-up dolls in mainstream performances. (Not trying to disparage them, but looking like women who have undergone a lot of surgery to exaggerate their secondary sexual characteristics is unquestionably part of their aesthetic.)
posted by praemunire at 4:03 PM on March 9
It's hard to understand that statement when Megan thee Stallion and Cardi B. have made millions off in recent years of, among other things, looking like literal blow-up dolls in mainstream performances. (Not trying to disparage them, but looking like women who have undergone a lot of surgery to exaggerate their secondary sexual characteristics is unquestionably part of their aesthetic.)
posted by praemunire at 4:03 PM on March 9
This is the first I have heard of her. OK, yes, aside from anime, I'm not really connected to pop culture. Still, she's a conventionally beautiful blonde woman. There are plenty of those around, and as far as I can tell, their political views span the spectrum. I'm not sure what the big deal is.
posted by evilDoug at 3:16 PM on March 10
posted by evilDoug at 3:16 PM on March 10
This does not seem reality-based, at all. Breast augmentations were extremely popular in the early 2010's, far more so than in the 90s.praemunire, is it possible that you misunderstood oneirodynia as saying that breast augmentation was more popular in the early 2010s than the late 2010s and early 2020s? Though I have no idea of the numbers myself, there doesn't seem to be anything inconsistent between the claim that breast augmentations were more popular in the early 2010s than in the 1990s, and the countervailing aesthetics in recent years of Cardi B. and Megan Thee Stallion (setting aside, as irrelevant to this question, whether two performers' aesthetics can be taken as any indication of the broader popularity of breast augmentation).
It's hard to understand that statement when Megan thee Stallion and Cardi B. have made millions off in recent years of, among other things, looking like literal blow-up dolls in mainstream performances. (Not trying to disparage them, but looking like women who have undergone a lot of surgery to exaggerate their secondary sexual characteristics is unquestionably part of their aesthetic.)
posted by It is regrettable that at 4:53 PM on March 10 [1 favorite]
"That" statement, the one she was responding to, not "this" statement, the one she was making. Sorry for any lack of clarity.
(And "that" statement was about our supposedly being in "reactionary anti-boob decades," which is an odd descriptor for a time in which very popular and successful performers have made a ton of money off blatantly fake huge breasts. It's true that neither Cardi nor Megan is white and there's a whole lot to unpack around that, but it's not like they're not making bank with 'em.)
posted by praemunire at 7:57 PM on March 10 [1 favorite]
(And "that" statement was about our supposedly being in "reactionary anti-boob decades," which is an odd descriptor for a time in which very popular and successful performers have made a ton of money off blatantly fake huge breasts. It's true that neither Cardi nor Megan is white and there's a whole lot to unpack around that, but it's not like they're not making bank with 'em.)
posted by praemunire at 7:57 PM on March 10 [1 favorite]
She's someone I've only seen in Reddit photos: I've literally no idea what she's famous for. Same thing with Alexandra Daddario: both of them have kind of a weird stare, giant boobs (not my personal thing, but you do you) that still appear shapely, and... I don't know. Everyone's got their own idea of hotness, and I guess she's it for a lot of people. The cynic in me wants to think this article exists because of her publicist trying to get her better roles—if what people upthread say is true, she's a good actress—which, well, go for it, I guess.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:11 AM on March 11
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 6:11 AM on March 11
It's hard to understand that statement when Megan thee Stallion and Cardi B. have made millions off in recent years of, among other things, looking like literal blow-up dolls in mainstream performances.
But the "wokeness is over" crowd isn't just interested in any kind of boobies. They want white boobies, preferably on a woman who does not have fat anywhere else on her body.
posted by jonp72 at 6:42 AM on March 11
But the "wokeness is over" crowd isn't just interested in any kind of boobies. They want white boobies, preferably on a woman who does not have fat anywhere else on her body.
posted by jonp72 at 6:42 AM on March 11
Why Can’t Metafilter Be Normal About Sydney Sweeney?
A: Because as is typical in any discussion of a currently relevant celebrity here half of the comments are people trying to demonstrate how cool and above it all they are by announcing they have no idea who this person is or are unfamiliar with her significant body of work, while another percentage is sure to note that she may be traditionally attractive but not their type.
posted by The Gooch at 9:00 AM on March 11 [5 favorites]
A: Because as is typical in any discussion of a currently relevant celebrity here half of the comments are people trying to demonstrate how cool and above it all they are by announcing they have no idea who this person is or are unfamiliar with her significant body of work, while another percentage is sure to note that she may be traditionally attractive but not their type.
posted by The Gooch at 9:00 AM on March 11 [5 favorites]
I've been the owner of larger-than-average breasts from the age of 12 and I'm pushing 60. There are men who talk about how much they like big boobs. There are men who talk about how they don't like big boobs. I am tired of both.
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:36 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
posted by LindsayIrene at 9:36 AM on March 11 [9 favorites]
: Because as is typical in any discussion of a currently relevant celebrity here half of the comments are people trying to demonstrate how cool and above it all they are by announcing they have no idea who this person is or are unfamiliar with her significant body of work,
I think it is more likely that this site skews old and out of touch.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:39 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I think it is more likely that this site skews old and out of touch.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:39 AM on March 12 [3 favorites]
I call it the Taylorswiftication of MeFi discourse.
As in, anything about Taylor is full of "I've never heard her music, but..."
posted by signal at 3:31 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
As in, anything about Taylor is full of "I've never heard her music, but..."
posted by signal at 3:31 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
: Because as is typical in any discussion of a currently relevant celebrity here half of the comments are people trying to demonstrate how cool and above it all they are by announcing they have no idea who this person is or are unfamiliar with her significant body of work,
I think it is more likely that this site skews old and out of touch.
Yup.
posted by Glinn at 5:20 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
I think it is more likely that this site skews old and out of touch.
Yup.
posted by Glinn at 5:20 PM on March 12 [2 favorites]
It's true that neither Cardi nor Megan is white and there's a whole lot to unpack around that, but it's not like they're not making bank with 'em.
I don't think there's a whole lot to unpack. They're not white so they're not the focus of MAGA fantasies. From the MAGA point of view, they're either invisible or a sign of the downfall of Real America.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
I don't think there's a whole lot to unpack. They're not white so they're not the focus of MAGA fantasies. From the MAGA point of view, they're either invisible or a sign of the downfall of Real America.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on March 13 [1 favorite]
Im dying of laughter. Her timing couldn’t be better. ‘Spits in the face of all that is holy’: Sydney Sweeney’s religious horror film ‘Immaculate’ angers conservatives who saw her as ‘anti-woke’
The horror film "Immaculate" is angering religious viewers, and the marketing team is using their angry quotes as ads.
posted by bq at 8:06 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
The horror film "Immaculate" is angering religious viewers, and the marketing team is using their angry quotes as ads.
posted by bq at 8:06 AM on March 28 [4 favorites]
Love it. She produced the movie, so this was definitely at least approved by her.
posted by signal at 9:51 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 9:51 AM on March 28 [2 favorites]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Did not matter to him and his cohort one bit that, as several of us pointed out to him, she and her boobs have been rocking and rolling across major pop culture artifacts for quite a while now
Nope - Sydney Sweeney's boobs were a sure sign to him that "no fun wokeism" is dying. Cannot imagine being so wrapped up in that world view to legitimately think that the general pool of humanity was no longer going to celebrate boobs in some shape or form. (Cultural tastes having varied by space, time and dominant belief systems)
I much preferred the Hot Ones memes riffing on her smile and adoring look during the interview.
posted by drewbage1847 at 3:07 PM on March 8 [1 favorite]