We may live in chaos, but there are mechanisms of control
March 26, 2024 2:19 AM Subscribe
According to Sarah, Andrew’s rage intensified with cohabitation. He fixated on her decision to have children with another man. She says he told her that being with her was like “bobbing for apples in feces.” “The pattern of your 11 years, while rooted in subconscious drives,” he told her in December 2021, “creates a nearly impossible set of hurdles for us … You have to change.” ... A spokesperson for Huberman denies Sarah’s accounts of their fights, denies that his rage intensified with cohabitation, denies that he fixated on Sarah’s decision to have children with another man, and denies that he said being with her was like bobbing for apples in feces. A spokesperson said, “Dr. Huberman is very much in control of his emotions.” from Andrew Huberman’s Mechanisms of Control [NY Magazine; ungated] [CW: abuse & manipulation]
I have read several variations of cheating men’s exes meeting up and becoming good friends, like a shortcut to finding people you’ll vibe with
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:32 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:32 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
I am beginning to think that an association with Stanford is a red flag. What is going on there?
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:08 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:08 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
Is the red flag association Stanford or is it white men with hours-long podcasts/YouTube channels?
posted by misskaz at 4:17 AM on March 26 [35 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 4:17 AM on March 26 [35 favorites]
I signed up for his mailing list literally a day before all this came out. I don't think I've ever encountered such a fast milkshake duck turnaround.
posted by mittens at 4:29 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
posted by mittens at 4:29 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
The Californian Ideology - which I see in the relentless drive towards self-optimization, half-scientific hucksterism, and a lot of talk about personal growth that neatly steps around genuine accountability - is definitely at least a small red flag here, if you're looking for reasons to blame Stanford.
posted by Jeanne at 4:32 AM on March 26 [23 favorites]
posted by Jeanne at 4:32 AM on March 26 [23 favorites]
Good Lord that man just sounds exhausting. Planning your life out to that much of a degree?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:32 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
Textbook.
Huberman sells a dream of control down to the cellular level.
A conservative grifter selling the idea of self-improvement because it seems far easier to remake yourself than to work with others for systemic change, especially when other people are the source of your trauma? Oh, and have an apolitical appearance but reinforce deeply conservative bigotry disguised as the natural, biological order?
That is textbook.
says David Spiegel, a Stanford psychiatrist who calls Andrew “prodigiously smart” and “intensely engaging.” “I mean, I recently got a really nice email from him. Which I was touched by. I really was.”
Getting other people (wingmen, basically; they usually are men anyway) with fancy titles and susceptibility to flattery to say how smart you are until it just becomes fact? Also textbook. See also, Elon Musk.
When they were together, he was buzzing, anxious. “He’s like, ‘Oh, my dog needs his blanket this way.’ And I’m like, ‘Your dog is just laying there and super-cozy. Why are you being weird about the blanket?’”
Textbook narcissist parent dynamic: you have the golden child who can do no wrong (the dog, in this case) and the scapegoat to project everything negative on (the girlfriend).
In 2020, after months of saying he was too busy to review the materials, Huberman called him and, Carney says, came at him in a rage. “I’ve never had a source I thought was friendly go bananas,” says Carney. Screaming, Huberman threatened to sue and accused Carney of “violating Navy OpSec.”
Yeah, the standard trope with these guys claiming to have a black belt in karate (a cheaper claim than owning a huge gun collection), but I guess times change and the masculine-coded school of violence that one claims mastery of also changes.
This pairs well with claiming to have psychic powers and the ability to hypnotize people. Or tell the future (like Rasputin.) Or have spiritual intuition applied to business/technology (like Jobs). Or stretching neurology into the realm of space wizards/laser swords/supersoldier serum science fiction. They have no superpowers though. People just tend to follow and do what tall men say.
His detractors note that Huberman extrapolates wildly from limited animal studies, posits certainty where there is ambiguity, and stumbles when he veers too far from his narrow realm of study, but even they will tend to admit that the podcast is an expansive, free (or, as he puts it, “zero-cost”) compendium of human knowledge.
Oh yeah, and presenting the "ya gotta give it to him" critics because you're only credible if you give a forgiving, "nuanced", centrist criticism (at least until the 55th accuser comes forward.) That's textbook too. The media still can't consistently say that Trump is a racist.
Andrew’s relationship to therapy remains intriguing. “We were at dinner once,” says Eve, “and he told me something personal, and I suggested he talk to his therapist. He laughed it off like that wasn’t ever going to happen, so I asked him if he lied to his therapist. He told me he did all the time.” (A spokesperson for Huberman denies this.)
Whether Blue Lives Matter, Straight Pride Parade, National Socialism, or the whole history of scientific racism, the right loves appropriating the popular concepts of the left. This includes weaponizing the language of therapy and commitment to equality.
Textbook, textbook, textbook.
Huberman has the image of a smarter Joe Rogan and a more jacked Jordan Peterson. Whatever. He's the same thing as both of them and attracts the same audience: disillusioned followers looking for a strongman guru to give them a prophecy of salvation and save them from a confusing, disinterested universe (and would throw their whole philosophy away the moment they get power over someone else).
I'll just repeat what others have said on the internet, "Nothing that only men like is cool."
All this is textbook. I'll wager a shiny penny on what happens next: allegations of academic dishonesty and falsified data, an affair with a grad student or fan or someone else he has power over, weird health issues with (despite having all of capitalism's options available) weirder treatments, more extreme right-wing politics (as the Overton window will allow at the time), breeding kink, public threats against unspecified enemies as he loses his ability to control himself with a microphone, more endorsements.of even sketchier products (expect "the Huberman AI app that gives you personal guidance to maximize your potential" or some other snake oil.)
The only reason we don't know about how controlling and abusive he is towards his dog is because the poor damn thing can't talk.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:33 AM on March 26 [78 favorites]
Huberman sells a dream of control down to the cellular level.
A conservative grifter selling the idea of self-improvement because it seems far easier to remake yourself than to work with others for systemic change, especially when other people are the source of your trauma? Oh, and have an apolitical appearance but reinforce deeply conservative bigotry disguised as the natural, biological order?
That is textbook.
says David Spiegel, a Stanford psychiatrist who calls Andrew “prodigiously smart” and “intensely engaging.” “I mean, I recently got a really nice email from him. Which I was touched by. I really was.”
Getting other people (wingmen, basically; they usually are men anyway) with fancy titles and susceptibility to flattery to say how smart you are until it just becomes fact? Also textbook. See also, Elon Musk.
When they were together, he was buzzing, anxious. “He’s like, ‘Oh, my dog needs his blanket this way.’ And I’m like, ‘Your dog is just laying there and super-cozy. Why are you being weird about the blanket?’”
Textbook narcissist parent dynamic: you have the golden child who can do no wrong (the dog, in this case) and the scapegoat to project everything negative on (the girlfriend).
In 2020, after months of saying he was too busy to review the materials, Huberman called him and, Carney says, came at him in a rage. “I’ve never had a source I thought was friendly go bananas,” says Carney. Screaming, Huberman threatened to sue and accused Carney of “violating Navy OpSec.”
Yeah, the standard trope with these guys claiming to have a black belt in karate (a cheaper claim than owning a huge gun collection), but I guess times change and the masculine-coded school of violence that one claims mastery of also changes.
This pairs well with claiming to have psychic powers and the ability to hypnotize people. Or tell the future (like Rasputin.) Or have spiritual intuition applied to business/technology (like Jobs). Or stretching neurology into the realm of space wizards/laser swords/supersoldier serum science fiction. They have no superpowers though. People just tend to follow and do what tall men say.
His detractors note that Huberman extrapolates wildly from limited animal studies, posits certainty where there is ambiguity, and stumbles when he veers too far from his narrow realm of study, but even they will tend to admit that the podcast is an expansive, free (or, as he puts it, “zero-cost”) compendium of human knowledge.
Oh yeah, and presenting the "ya gotta give it to him" critics because you're only credible if you give a forgiving, "nuanced", centrist criticism (at least until the 55th accuser comes forward.) That's textbook too. The media still can't consistently say that Trump is a racist.
Andrew’s relationship to therapy remains intriguing. “We were at dinner once,” says Eve, “and he told me something personal, and I suggested he talk to his therapist. He laughed it off like that wasn’t ever going to happen, so I asked him if he lied to his therapist. He told me he did all the time.” (A spokesperson for Huberman denies this.)
Whether Blue Lives Matter, Straight Pride Parade, National Socialism, or the whole history of scientific racism, the right loves appropriating the popular concepts of the left. This includes weaponizing the language of therapy and commitment to equality.
Textbook, textbook, textbook.
Huberman has the image of a smarter Joe Rogan and a more jacked Jordan Peterson. Whatever. He's the same thing as both of them and attracts the same audience: disillusioned followers looking for a strongman guru to give them a prophecy of salvation and save them from a confusing, disinterested universe (and would throw their whole philosophy away the moment they get power over someone else).
I'll just repeat what others have said on the internet, "Nothing that only men like is cool."
All this is textbook. I'll wager a shiny penny on what happens next: allegations of academic dishonesty and falsified data, an affair with a grad student or fan or someone else he has power over, weird health issues with (despite having all of capitalism's options available) weirder treatments, more extreme right-wing politics (as the Overton window will allow at the time), breeding kink, public threats against unspecified enemies as he loses his ability to control himself with a microphone, more endorsements.of even sketchier products (expect "the Huberman AI app that gives you personal guidance to maximize your potential" or some other snake oil.)
The only reason we don't know about how controlling and abusive he is towards his dog is because the poor damn thing can't talk.
posted by AlSweigart at 4:33 AM on March 26 [78 favorites]
i stand by my assessment from the last time huberman appeared on metafilter: fuck that guy
posted by logicpunk at 4:42 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 4:42 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
I have never heard of Huberman until now, and after reading that, fuck that guy. I am not a fan of men weaponizing therapy talk against women.
posted by Kitteh at 4:52 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 4:52 AM on March 26 [14 favorites]
(Important thing I want to add to this discussion: there is not a certain type of person who joins a cult, enters an abusive relationship, or falls for a grifter's scam. All types of people do that, including the type you are. There is a certain state of mind and circumstance that makes all people susceptible to those things.)
posted by AlSweigart at 4:58 AM on March 26 [61 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 4:58 AM on March 26 [61 favorites]
After seeing "not like other bro podcasters" and "Huberman tells Joe Rogan" I was not surprised by anything in the article. All I can say is "Christ, what an asshole!"
posted by tommasz at 4:58 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 4:58 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
I hadn’t heard of this guy before but looking at how his face and body have changed according to google image search results I hope his health advice includes the obvious fitness life hack he’s injecting. I’ll bet he does have some rage issues though.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:33 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 5:33 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
I feel there’s a certain kind of guy that has an absolute void of self esteem and deep hatred of women, but knows he can’t get women by telling them he hates them. This man is one of those.
posted by corb at 6:07 AM on March 26 [28 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:07 AM on March 26 [28 favorites]
Almost all of his recommendations are basically:
1. get a good nights sleep
2. exercise (doesnt need to be a lot)
3. have some friends
4. get outdoors / in sunlight
5. (some other mind-boggling obvious stuff).
(there is a lot of other crazy stuff but basically every episode starts with “… and before I tell you about how eating your own earwax makes you taller, the critical thing is to get a good eight hours”)
So I think his great schtick is convincing people that all the advice from their parents when they were 5 is backed up by science…
His podcast is deeply flawed and it seems he is not in fact an honest person. He is a terrible interviewer, promises relevations that are never revealed, is clearly talking nonsense at many points, pitches products that dont work.
And - after listening to his podcast I started to prioritize sleep and exercise which has made my mental health much, much better. His episode on parenting was a horrible interview but gave me insights into how to set healthy boundaries for my kid.
Am I flawed by listening to him / “falling for it”? Am I fundamentally an irredeemable bro? Can he be a horrible person and an effective educator? Should I stop listening?
posted by web5.0 at 6:07 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
1. get a good nights sleep
2. exercise (doesnt need to be a lot)
3. have some friends
4. get outdoors / in sunlight
5. (some other mind-boggling obvious stuff).
(there is a lot of other crazy stuff but basically every episode starts with “… and before I tell you about how eating your own earwax makes you taller, the critical thing is to get a good eight hours”)
So I think his great schtick is convincing people that all the advice from their parents when they were 5 is backed up by science…
His podcast is deeply flawed and it seems he is not in fact an honest person. He is a terrible interviewer, promises relevations that are never revealed, is clearly talking nonsense at many points, pitches products that dont work.
And - after listening to his podcast I started to prioritize sleep and exercise which has made my mental health much, much better. His episode on parenting was a horrible interview but gave me insights into how to set healthy boundaries for my kid.
Am I flawed by listening to him / “falling for it”? Am I fundamentally an irredeemable bro? Can he be a horrible person and an effective educator? Should I stop listening?
posted by web5.0 at 6:07 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
A conservative grifter
This guy is a major asshole but he isn't Rogan, he isn't Alex Jones, and he isn't Jordan Peterson. He's something else. I don't know if that something else is better or worse ( I think he's better than them, but that's like the lowest bar possible). I don't think 'conservative' or 'right-wing' accurately describes him. You're missing out on a lot of what makes him attractive to people if you do.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
This guy is a major asshole but he isn't Rogan, he isn't Alex Jones, and he isn't Jordan Peterson. He's something else. I don't know if that something else is better or worse ( I think he's better than them, but that's like the lowest bar possible). I don't think 'conservative' or 'right-wing' accurately describes him. You're missing out on a lot of what makes him attractive to people if you do.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:14 AM on March 26 [17 favorites]
He's a narcissist first, before any political leanings, who will say whatever's necessary to get people to pay attention to him. It's possible to give good advice in general, and still be dangerously narcissistic. Every narcissist finds a niche and develops a schtick for attracting adulation. This guy found pitching a mix of crack pottery and sound recommendations to work for him.
What people often forget about narcissists is that it can feel incredibly good to have their laser-beam attention turned upon you while they are casting their spell to get you to adore them. But once you're in their orbit their attention drifts to the next victim and it gets nasty.
Anyway, whatever, it's okay to find apples in a bucket of shit, not really judging, just wash them off and maybe go find somewhere better to look for apples.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:33 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
What people often forget about narcissists is that it can feel incredibly good to have their laser-beam attention turned upon you while they are casting their spell to get you to adore them. But once you're in their orbit their attention drifts to the next victim and it gets nasty.
Anyway, whatever, it's okay to find apples in a bucket of shit, not really judging, just wash them off and maybe go find somewhere better to look for apples.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:33 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
I want to share my admiration for the article's author, Kerry Howley. The sheer density of the number of brilliant turns of phrase in her writing.
posted by Nelson at 6:37 AM on March 26 [25 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 6:37 AM on March 26 [25 favorites]
I don't know if this guy is a clinical narcissist or a sociopath. And neither does anybody else here. I don't think we do anybody any favors when we consign all bad people to a medicalized other.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:47 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
posted by The Manwich Horror at 6:47 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
Narcissist and sociopath aren’t purely clinical terms.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:56 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:56 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
I personally think we should all avoid, whenever possible, giving money/data/eyeballs to people like this.
There's a whole ecosystem - which includes Rogan and real, genuine "wish I had been in Chile in 1974 to murder people" types - of semi-science/pseudo-science, "fitness", "optimization" and misogyny. Many of these people are stupid, but that doesn't keep them from being dangerous; you're just as dead if the paramilitaries are bro-types who believe in lizard people and leg-lengthening surgery as if they're educated, strategic killers. This guy sounds like he's either a chud who's learned to speak therapy or completely amoral, and either way he's channeling his audience into the Roganosphere.
I put fitness and optimization in quotes because they're basically fascist ideologies - lifting weights so that you embody some bullshit "masculine" ideal, "optimizing" your babies so that they can "succeed" in a white nationalist, fascist society by being and doing the things that society values, etc. Fitness, like, "I'd like to be as strong and well as my body and conditions permit", is not what we're talking about here. Wanting to have a good life is not the same as ever striving for the "best" life in a world of total competition.
My feeling is that you don't want to dip a toe in that pond, because you don't know what's under the surface.
posted by Frowner at 7:12 AM on March 26 [21 favorites]
There's a whole ecosystem - which includes Rogan and real, genuine "wish I had been in Chile in 1974 to murder people" types - of semi-science/pseudo-science, "fitness", "optimization" and misogyny. Many of these people are stupid, but that doesn't keep them from being dangerous; you're just as dead if the paramilitaries are bro-types who believe in lizard people and leg-lengthening surgery as if they're educated, strategic killers. This guy sounds like he's either a chud who's learned to speak therapy or completely amoral, and either way he's channeling his audience into the Roganosphere.
I put fitness and optimization in quotes because they're basically fascist ideologies - lifting weights so that you embody some bullshit "masculine" ideal, "optimizing" your babies so that they can "succeed" in a white nationalist, fascist society by being and doing the things that society values, etc. Fitness, like, "I'd like to be as strong and well as my body and conditions permit", is not what we're talking about here. Wanting to have a good life is not the same as ever striving for the "best" life in a world of total competition.
My feeling is that you don't want to dip a toe in that pond, because you don't know what's under the surface.
posted by Frowner at 7:12 AM on March 26 [21 favorites]
I put fitness and optimization in quotes because they're basically fascist ideologies
I can't even.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:16 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
I can't even.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:16 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
I feel like it's clear from the rest of the comment that in these communities, "fitness" and "optimiziation" carry a lot more of the connotations of fascism than they do when used elsewhere.
posted by sagc at 7:22 AM on March 26 [34 favorites]
posted by sagc at 7:22 AM on March 26 [34 favorites]
I know what makes him attractive to people. It's not his banal advice to get exercise and go outside every once in a while.
He is not "something else" apart from conservatism. He'll follow the same pipeline that all people with power and narcissistic tendencies follow:
1. Get used to privileged treatment
2. Say something dumb publicly or have his accusers organize and come forward
3. Get called out for it (gently or harshly)
4. Double down
5. Accept praise from Nazis
6. Triple down
7. Get buddy-buddy with more Nazis
8. Not only drop the mask but brag about dropping the mask while also insisting that they never wore a mask and that they are still wearing a mask.
If they can keep their power, they become Elon Musk or J. K. Rowling. If they lose their power, they become Graham Linehan. Even if they lose, they still win: Trump, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, and Scott Adams are out of jail, with their millions, and sleeping in mansions tonight. They even got their Twitter accounts back.
This is conservatism, "There is a hierarchy of people and I say those with power deserve their power, because the only avenue I see to gaining power for myself is to suck up to/inherit from them. I have The Secret, the Forbidden Knowledge that They (Jews and/or Democrats) don't want you to know: that community and collective action are what the weak do because they are not strong (unlike me, I'm very strong because my rich parents bought me these supplements from a podcaster.)"
The appeal? "I don't need to be the king at the top of the pyramid as long as I have a level below me to kick down on, because to the Chipotle cashier, I am the king."
This is what unites racism, misogyny, quack grifter business schemes, transphobia, cults, and all the other conservative hallmarks that we see in Trump, Musk, Rogan, Peterson, and Andrew Huberman.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:24 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
He is not "something else" apart from conservatism. He'll follow the same pipeline that all people with power and narcissistic tendencies follow:
1. Get used to privileged treatment
2. Say something dumb publicly or have his accusers organize and come forward
3. Get called out for it (gently or harshly)
4. Double down
5. Accept praise from Nazis
6. Triple down
7. Get buddy-buddy with more Nazis
8. Not only drop the mask but brag about dropping the mask while also insisting that they never wore a mask and that they are still wearing a mask.
If they can keep their power, they become Elon Musk or J. K. Rowling. If they lose their power, they become Graham Linehan. Even if they lose, they still win: Trump, Alex Jones, Tucker Carlson, and Scott Adams are out of jail, with their millions, and sleeping in mansions tonight. They even got their Twitter accounts back.
This is conservatism, "There is a hierarchy of people and I say those with power deserve their power, because the only avenue I see to gaining power for myself is to suck up to/inherit from them. I have The Secret, the Forbidden Knowledge that They (Jews and/or Democrats) don't want you to know: that community and collective action are what the weak do because they are not strong (unlike me, I'm very strong because my rich parents bought me these supplements from a podcaster.)"
The appeal? "I don't need to be the king at the top of the pyramid as long as I have a level below me to kick down on, because to the Chipotle cashier, I am the king."
This is what unites racism, misogyny, quack grifter business schemes, transphobia, cults, and all the other conservative hallmarks that we see in Trump, Musk, Rogan, Peterson, and Andrew Huberman.
posted by AlSweigart at 7:24 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
"Optimizer" is the term the author uses, one I hadn't really heard before.
This whole thing seems like twisting the language of therapy to avoid the real work of growth, which involves admitting and accepting your own weaknesses. Instead you optimize and control them away, which is not what I'd call a healthy result. It's just fancy denial.
posted by emjaybee at 7:25 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
This whole thing seems like twisting the language of therapy to avoid the real work of growth, which involves admitting and accepting your own weaknesses. Instead you optimize and control them away, which is not what I'd call a healthy result. It's just fancy denial.
posted by emjaybee at 7:25 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
I can't even.
To clarify what I didn't say well - "fitness" when people mean "I want to get swole because masculinity/acquire a high quality woman/secure a future for my [white]children" is fascist. That's not the same as "I'm going to the gym because I like getting stronger, would like it if I looked a little more youthful and springy and want to have more energy". Call them F1tness and fitness if it helps; F1tness is fascist; fitness is what you make of it.
"Optimization" though, honestly, the idea that you must always pursue the "best" seems really screwed up to me, for the planet, for one's personal life, for moral reasons. Most things worth doing aren't about being the "best" or having the "best" life, and the whole ranking/scrutinizing/competing/tweaking unresting competitive mindset that's involved seems both mystical-in-a-bad-way and really politically bad. It seems to me to chime with some of the ideas in Male Fantasies, the duology about Naziism/fascism - the fear of the "flood" of ordinary humanity, the fear of amorphousness, the fear of things just being...things and not serried ranks.
The idea that you "optimize" your potential children seems a half step away from eugenics, for that matter. It suggests that having the "best" children is what's important, that it's easy to rank some children as "better" than others and that there are "failed" children.
Not to mention the way it puts your focus on you - getting just the right exercise/nutrients/etc so that you will be "your personal best" or "the best" or however it gets framed seems like a way of hiding or avoiding the social determinants of health.
Also there's this whole fall-of-the-USSR conspiracy-mysticism vibe to a lot of this stuff; it's basically magic but people call it science.
posted by Frowner at 7:37 AM on March 26 [30 favorites]
To clarify what I didn't say well - "fitness" when people mean "I want to get swole because masculinity/acquire a high quality woman/secure a future for my [white]children" is fascist. That's not the same as "I'm going to the gym because I like getting stronger, would like it if I looked a little more youthful and springy and want to have more energy". Call them F1tness and fitness if it helps; F1tness is fascist; fitness is what you make of it.
"Optimization" though, honestly, the idea that you must always pursue the "best" seems really screwed up to me, for the planet, for one's personal life, for moral reasons. Most things worth doing aren't about being the "best" or having the "best" life, and the whole ranking/scrutinizing/competing/tweaking unresting competitive mindset that's involved seems both mystical-in-a-bad-way and really politically bad. It seems to me to chime with some of the ideas in Male Fantasies, the duology about Naziism/fascism - the fear of the "flood" of ordinary humanity, the fear of amorphousness, the fear of things just being...things and not serried ranks.
The idea that you "optimize" your potential children seems a half step away from eugenics, for that matter. It suggests that having the "best" children is what's important, that it's easy to rank some children as "better" than others and that there are "failed" children.
Not to mention the way it puts your focus on you - getting just the right exercise/nutrients/etc so that you will be "your personal best" or "the best" or however it gets framed seems like a way of hiding or avoiding the social determinants of health.
Also there's this whole fall-of-the-USSR conspiracy-mysticism vibe to a lot of this stuff; it's basically magic but people call it science.
posted by Frowner at 7:37 AM on March 26 [30 favorites]
And "optimizing" your children really strongly suggests that ordinary, working class people who can't afford all the "optimization" for the embryos or whatever or who just have kids the ordinary way...they're producing plebian, non-optimized children who are genetically inferior, which is why the Stanford professor's child who went to Stanford and became a Stanford professor is that way - he's just superior, and he should use his brains to produce even more "superior" children.
posted by Frowner at 7:42 AM on March 26 [21 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 7:42 AM on March 26 [21 favorites]
Saying that "I want to be a buff man because it will help me get laid by hot women" is ipso facto fascist is missing the point, ahistorical, and just explodes the definition of fascism.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:50 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
he's just superior, and he should use his brains to produce even more "superior" children
Yeah, this is why as soon as I saw that he was angry at his partner for having children with other men before she met him, I instantly believed the entire story, because this is such, such, such a common thing among that particular type of dude. Even though they didn't want to settle down and have children usually until their 40s, they have anger at the desired woman 'wasting' her reproductive time/years with 'inferior' men who were willing to reproduce earlier. In their ideal world, women should just be on a shelf waiting for whenever they are ready.
posted by corb at 8:00 AM on March 26 [37 favorites]
Yeah, this is why as soon as I saw that he was angry at his partner for having children with other men before she met him, I instantly believed the entire story, because this is such, such, such a common thing among that particular type of dude. Even though they didn't want to settle down and have children usually until their 40s, they have anger at the desired woman 'wasting' her reproductive time/years with 'inferior' men who were willing to reproduce earlier. In their ideal world, women should just be on a shelf waiting for whenever they are ready.
posted by corb at 8:00 AM on March 26 [37 favorites]
I'd strongly suggest looking at chud social media (if you don't want to take my word for it; not that I recommend chud social media). There's a whole world of "men are worthless unless they are tall and strong [in a way that is only achieved by a few people by loony toon behavior/steroids] and only men who are tall and strong [and usually white] will get the "hot" women [because women are shallow] and also you need to reproduce with a hot tradwife". There is a whole ideology of "fitness" which is specifically fascist and which is right now today promulgated by people who are themselves specifically fascist.
This is completely in line with Nazi ideology - check out Male Fantasies, for instance - but also in line with ideas about health/eugenics/the social body/whiteness that appear routinely in fascist thought. The belief that masculinity means a certain kind of body which symbolizes the state and can enact violence and which is contrasted with the "degenerate" bodies of women, people of color, queer people, Jews and the disabled is a very standard fascist talking point.
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on March 26 [43 favorites]
This is completely in line with Nazi ideology - check out Male Fantasies, for instance - but also in line with ideas about health/eugenics/the social body/whiteness that appear routinely in fascist thought. The belief that masculinity means a certain kind of body which symbolizes the state and can enact violence and which is contrasted with the "degenerate" bodies of women, people of color, queer people, Jews and the disabled is a very standard fascist talking point.
posted by Frowner at 8:00 AM on March 26 [43 favorites]
Narcissist and sociopath aren’t purely clinical terms.
Neither are schizophrenic or psychotic. But they should be.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:05 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Neither are schizophrenic or psychotic. But they should be.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 8:05 AM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Me innocently googling Nazi Male Fantasies at work so I can find out why exercising is fascist
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:09 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:09 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
There's a whole world of "men are worthless unless they are tall and strong [in a way that is only achieved by a few people by loony toon behavior/steroids] and only men who are tall and strong [and usually white] will get the "hot" women [because women are shallow] and also you need to reproduce with a hot tradwife".
This isn't what huberman said so why is this relevant?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:11 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
This isn't what huberman said so why is this relevant?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:11 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
I'm glad there was a happy ending in that the women have formed meaningful friendships. Their relationships with AH sounded very emotionally draining.
I hope this article is a wake-up call for AH and he develops integrity. I don't listen to his podcast, but I respect that he gives the Joe Rogan crowd an alternative who is, for all his faults, less toxic, while also providing a space where Rogan and non-Rogan crowds intersect.
I believe him when he says he is a love addict. This whole article reads as the story of an addict. (Maybe also a narcissist, but I couldn't tell from this where one might stop and the other starts.) Seen in that light, his obsession with dopamine makes sense. No amount of AG or morning sun will fill that hole if it isn't acknowledged-- in fact covering it with faux ground makes it easier to fall back into. For the sake of his happiness and the happiness of those he is close to, as well as everybody who looks up to him, I hope he does some deep reflection after reading this and starts acting in a way that might actually lead to the peace and contentment he talks about.
posted by a_curious_koala at 8:14 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
I hope this article is a wake-up call for AH and he develops integrity. I don't listen to his podcast, but I respect that he gives the Joe Rogan crowd an alternative who is, for all his faults, less toxic, while also providing a space where Rogan and non-Rogan crowds intersect.
I believe him when he says he is a love addict. This whole article reads as the story of an addict. (Maybe also a narcissist, but I couldn't tell from this where one might stop and the other starts.) Seen in that light, his obsession with dopamine makes sense. No amount of AG or morning sun will fill that hole if it isn't acknowledged-- in fact covering it with faux ground makes it easier to fall back into. For the sake of his happiness and the happiness of those he is close to, as well as everybody who looks up to him, I hope he does some deep reflection after reading this and starts acting in a way that might actually lead to the peace and contentment he talks about.
posted by a_curious_koala at 8:14 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]
Because Huberman buddies up with Rogan. It's an ecosystem. For me personally, once someone starts with fake-science supplements and also has a documented history of misogyny and is very interested in bulking up in an on-trend way, I feel like they're pretty enmeshed in that ecosystem - it's a way of thinking, a network of ideas. You don't need to come out and say "yes I personally think white people are superior and wish to secure a future for my white children" to be part of a network of pretty fucked up and basically fascist ideas, like "optimizing" your children and getting mad that your girlfriend has kids from a previous relationship.
Honestly, the older I get and the more I see friends and family struggle with their health, too, the more I am skeptical of the type of "fitness" that is about tightly individually controlling things in order to look right and live forever. Social determinants of health override that; so does aging. The fear of those things and the belief that you can hack them by being extremely virtuous are only going to make people unhappy in the long run.
Like, it is classic that this guy is 48 - the sheer number of near-fifty people who get sucked into pseudo-science and conspiracy because they're terrified of losing the last of their youth, the sheer number of men who have a "whoops, forgot to have children, where is the nubile optimizer I'm entitled to"...it's completely classic.
posted by Frowner at 8:17 AM on March 26 [47 favorites]
Honestly, the older I get and the more I see friends and family struggle with their health, too, the more I am skeptical of the type of "fitness" that is about tightly individually controlling things in order to look right and live forever. Social determinants of health override that; so does aging. The fear of those things and the belief that you can hack them by being extremely virtuous are only going to make people unhappy in the long run.
Like, it is classic that this guy is 48 - the sheer number of near-fifty people who get sucked into pseudo-science and conspiracy because they're terrified of losing the last of their youth, the sheer number of men who have a "whoops, forgot to have children, where is the nubile optimizer I'm entitled to"...it's completely classic.
posted by Frowner at 8:17 AM on March 26 [47 favorites]
> "Nothing that only men like is cool."
It wouldn't make any sense out of context per se, but I would still like this engraved on my tombstone.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:18 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
It wouldn't make any sense out of context per se, but I would still like this engraved on my tombstone.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:18 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
Like, it is classic that this guy is 48 - the sheer number of near-fifty people who get sucked into pseudo-science and conspiracy because they're terrified of losing the last of their youth, the sheer number of men who have a "whoops, forgot to have children, where is the nubile optimizer I'm entitled to"...it's completely classic.
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:22 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:22 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
There's a whole world of "men are worthless unless they are tall and strong [in a way that is only achieved by a few people by loony toon behavior/steroids] and only men who are tall and strong [and usually white] will get the "hot" women [because women are shallow] and also you need to reproduce with a hot tradwife".
This isn't what huberman said so why is this relevant?
Frowner is describing the (online?) culture & communities where Huberman is revered. Huberman and all the other "optimization" grifters work in a thick overlap with the Red Pill/manosphere corners of the internet, where this way of thinking is the coin of the realm.
posted by knotty knots at 8:25 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
This isn't what huberman said so why is this relevant?
Frowner is describing the (online?) culture & communities where Huberman is revered. Huberman and all the other "optimization" grifters work in a thick overlap with the Red Pill/manosphere corners of the internet, where this way of thinking is the coin of the realm.
posted by knotty knots at 8:25 AM on March 26 [15 favorites]
Most of Huberman's advice is about doing your best with your own physiology and your own energy levels, and any "optimization" that takes place is only "optimal" by your own internal standards.
I don't care about Huberman as a figurehead but it's a fact that a lot of his advice is very good and sound -- several of my friends got into him through his episode about menopause, PMS, and menstruation and now swear by his advice (or more precisely, his guest's advice).
I think he got lost in the sauce as a pop scientist but a lot of his advice about how to focus on work, yoga nidra, reset a messed up sleep schedule, and plan an exercise routine has helped me a lot as well. This may surprise you but I do not listen to Joe Rogan or consider myself a fascist despite the fact that I do pushups.
A lot of the fanfic in this thread about how Huberman is going to become a Nazi because he got cancelled by formerly outspoken libertarian Kerry Howley is pretty funny.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:25 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
I don't care about Huberman as a figurehead but it's a fact that a lot of his advice is very good and sound -- several of my friends got into him through his episode about menopause, PMS, and menstruation and now swear by his advice (or more precisely, his guest's advice).
I think he got lost in the sauce as a pop scientist but a lot of his advice about how to focus on work, yoga nidra, reset a messed up sleep schedule, and plan an exercise routine has helped me a lot as well. This may surprise you but I do not listen to Joe Rogan or consider myself a fascist despite the fact that I do pushups.
A lot of the fanfic in this thread about how Huberman is going to become a Nazi because he got cancelled by formerly outspoken libertarian Kerry Howley is pretty funny.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 8:25 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
Fair!
Just so it's not lurking in the background, I'm not saying "mefites who feel good about going to the gym and like being strong or want to look strong are bad, you should feel bad, never take a vitamin or drink a protein shake, protein is fascist".
I do think that it is unwise to engage with these unsavory chud-adjacent types, not because it makes you a chud yourself but because it creates water for them to swim in. (And of course, people do get drawn into loathsome views, unfortunately, although I hope mefites wouldn't.) This guy does not sound like what people are hoping for when they start tuning in.
posted by Frowner at 8:29 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
Fair!
Just so it's not lurking in the background, I'm not saying "mefites who feel good about going to the gym and like being strong or want to look strong are bad, you should feel bad, never take a vitamin or drink a protein shake, protein is fascist".
I do think that it is unwise to engage with these unsavory chud-adjacent types, not because it makes you a chud yourself but because it creates water for them to swim in. (And of course, people do get drawn into loathsome views, unfortunately, although I hope mefites wouldn't.) This guy does not sound like what people are hoping for when they start tuning in.
posted by Frowner at 8:29 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
> Huberman tells Joe Rogan. “The data show that gratitude, and avoiding toxic people and focusing on good-quality social interactions … huge increases in serotonin.” “Hmmm,” Rogan says.
Damn, those are some big brain insights. No way I would have figured that out on my own.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:37 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
Damn, those are some big brain insights. No way I would have figured that out on my own.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:37 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
I hope this article is a wake-up call for AH and he develops integrity.
Did we read the same article? There's no way the guy I read about is going to wake up and develop integrity. He's got diet supplements to sell and girls to juggle. It seems to be working for him.
(BTW, "body fascism" is a whole topic of popular discourse with a long history. Connecting this twisted view of fitness to fascism is not a new concept.)
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
Did we read the same article? There's no way the guy I read about is going to wake up and develop integrity. He's got diet supplements to sell and girls to juggle. It seems to be working for him.
(BTW, "body fascism" is a whole topic of popular discourse with a long history. Connecting this twisted view of fitness to fascism is not a new concept.)
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
It's an ecosystem. For me personally, once someone starts with fake-science supplements and also has a documented history of misogyny and is very interested in bulking up in an on-trend way, I feel like they're pretty enmeshed in that ecosystem - it's a way of thinking, a network of ideas.
Yes, thank you. It's like when people counter me with, "Well, Trump is not a Nazi because the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was disbanded in 1945" and, sure, that is technically correct. But there is a broad pattern to conservative values and mindset. It's why you can say that the Republican Party and the Taliban have the same politics despite being enemies.
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
We don't know the ages of all the people he's cheated with.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:44 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
Yes, thank you. It's like when people counter me with, "Well, Trump is not a Nazi because the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei was disbanded in 1945" and, sure, that is technically correct. But there is a broad pattern to conservative values and mindset. It's why you can say that the Republican Party and the Taliban have the same politics despite being enemies.
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
We don't know the ages of all the people he's cheated with.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:44 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
To my surprise, this guy was actually dating age-appropriate women.
Right around his mother's age when his family broke up and he was 14, perchance?
posted by jamjam at 9:01 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Right around his mother's age when his family broke up and he was 14, perchance?
posted by jamjam at 9:01 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
John Harvey Kellogg kinda motherfucker.
The thing that blows my mind with all these bastards is that their followers have access to the entire history of celebrity "wellness" goofiness that's been going on for over a century in America and they seem to lack the perspective to pause and say, "hang on a second.... this sounds familiar."
And this is me taking a little perspective, because I was raised by two very successful academics and worshiped at the altar of higher education well into adulthood. It took *a lot* of self-destructive decisions for me to finally reach the conclusion that people aren't as smart as they say they are - and that the reason a con game is called is con game is because the absolute bedrock requirement of the grift is right there in the name of the damned thing.
Confidence.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:04 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
The thing that blows my mind with all these bastards is that their followers have access to the entire history of celebrity "wellness" goofiness that's been going on for over a century in America and they seem to lack the perspective to pause and say, "hang on a second.... this sounds familiar."
And this is me taking a little perspective, because I was raised by two very successful academics and worshiped at the altar of higher education well into adulthood. It took *a lot* of self-destructive decisions for me to finally reach the conclusion that people aren't as smart as they say they are - and that the reason a con game is called is con game is because the absolute bedrock requirement of the grift is right there in the name of the damned thing.
Confidence.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:04 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
From the article:
A spokesperson said, “Dr. Huberman is very much in control of his emotions.”There's always a dril tweet:
and another thing: im not mad. please dont put in the newspaper that i got mad.posted by mhum at 9:10 AM on March 26 [29 favorites]
Listen, this guy may have some good ideas or sound science, but once you've gone on Joe Rogan, I cease to be interested in your existence. Joe Rogan by association is a no-go area for me.
posted by Kitteh at 9:30 AM on March 26 [25 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:30 AM on March 26 [25 favorites]
Re: the promoting/recommending & advertising of supplements on Huberman's podcast and how "the content does not stray far from Silicon Valley’s love affair with the tweaking of healthy human biology":
Right from the start, The Huberman Lab was sponsored by companies offering questionable products from the perspective of science-based medicine. First up is Athletic Greens and their all-in-one daily supplement powder. Huberman says that if you are looking for a single supplement to take and can afford it, you should go with something like Athletic Greens, because it provides you with everything: 75 ingredients in total, including vitamins, minerals, spirulina, chlorella, fruit concentrates, antioxidants, herbal extracts, digestive enzymes, mushroom powder, and two different bacterial strains. The listed price right now is USD 79 for a monthly supply.posted by spamandkimchi at 9:41 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
... The second sponsor of Huberman’s first episode was InsideTracker, a service that offers blood and DNA testing not to specifically diagnose a medical condition but to offer advice on weight control, bone health, cognition, and more, for the price of between USD 249 and 659, depending on the plan.
....
In Huberman’s episode on a “rational approach to supplementation for health and performance,” I heard him endorse ashwagandha to buffer against stressors; a Nigerian shrub named Fadogia agrestis, a flowering plant called tongkat ali, and a Himalayan natural substance called shilajit to increase libido; alpha-GPC to enhance alertness...
Me innocently googling Nazi Male Fantasies at work so I can find out why exercising is fascist
Heh. Male Fantasies is a classic book by Klaus Theweleit that analyzes how proto-Nazi paramilitaries imagined women and sex. This NYT review of volume 1 has a good summary.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:57 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
Heh. Male Fantasies is a classic book by Klaus Theweleit that analyzes how proto-Nazi paramilitaries imagined women and sex. This NYT review of volume 1 has a good summary.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 9:57 AM on March 26 [10 favorites]
opinion of Huberman instantly confirmed
posted by bq at 10:04 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
posted by bq at 10:04 AM on March 26 [3 favorites]
previously, and hopefully an indicator to some that their quack/shithead radars could be more finely tuned
there are far better, less toxic, and better edited resources for health and exercise science out there like
Stronger By Science - earlier eps when Trexler and Nuckols were still a pair are great. super snarky, secretly anti-capitalist. Newer eps with Knuckols' partner are interesting dives into micronutrients, etc
Mass Research Hours - Trex now heads this and his cohosts are still learning how to host a podcast and be interesting and have a sense of humor that isn't just extremely dry and snarky. Great for rote info and advice, not the most fun to listen to
I think there's a built-in lack of skepticism everytime any podcast/radio/television/etc host interviews someone from well outside of their field of expertise which is why any 'jack-of-all-trades' style podcasting raises my skeptical hackles. anecdotal successes are great but, as always, anecdotal advice based on 'cutting edge' research generally is given without population-wide testing for side-effects, etc and is extremely biased towards positive placebo results affecting effect sizes and significance, esp if you're the kind to accept it unskeptically. there's a kind of blissful ignorance in that probably helps people lead happier lives but it's not for me, at least
posted by paimapi at 10:19 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
there are far better, less toxic, and better edited resources for health and exercise science out there like
Stronger By Science - earlier eps when Trexler and Nuckols were still a pair are great. super snarky, secretly anti-capitalist. Newer eps with Knuckols' partner are interesting dives into micronutrients, etc
Mass Research Hours - Trex now heads this and his cohosts are still learning how to host a podcast and be interesting and have a sense of humor that isn't just extremely dry and snarky. Great for rote info and advice, not the most fun to listen to
I think there's a built-in lack of skepticism everytime any podcast/radio/television/etc host interviews someone from well outside of their field of expertise which is why any 'jack-of-all-trades' style podcasting raises my skeptical hackles. anecdotal successes are great but, as always, anecdotal advice based on 'cutting edge' research generally is given without population-wide testing for side-effects, etc and is extremely biased towards positive placebo results affecting effect sizes and significance, esp if you're the kind to accept it unskeptically. there's a kind of blissful ignorance in that probably helps people lead happier lives but it's not for me, at least
posted by paimapi at 10:19 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
This has been quite the trip. I became a fan at first, then began to get a weird feeling about him, and then came across people who accused him of exaggeration and even dishonesty. He increasingly rubbed me the wrong way. Now, I've just finished reading this article, and wow, if even half of those claims are true, he's really in the Peterson/Tate quadrant.
posted by Cobalt at 10:27 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
posted by Cobalt at 10:27 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
(A spokesperson for Huberman denies that he and Sarah had decided to have children together, clarifying that they “decided to create embryos by IVF.”)
what the fuck?
posted by bq at 10:28 AM on March 26 [19 favorites]
what the fuck?
posted by bq at 10:28 AM on March 26 [19 favorites]
PETERSON AND TATE ARE PUBLICLY PRO RIGHT WING REACTIONARIES LOOKING TO COMPLETELY RETVRN SOCIETY TO SOME IMAGINE PAST WHERE WHITE MEN RULE THE WORLD AND EVERYONE IS SUBJECT TO THEIR WHIMS!!!! Huberman is publicly doing nothign like that.
I'm losing my mind. Peterson, who is a shithead baby, AFAIK has been faithful to his wife of 30 plus years.
Like no one should trust huberman, he clearly has no problem lying. But its wild that people are reading about his absolutely monstrous personal behavior and then saying, well, he's clearly publicly a right wing authoritarian.
If an steadfastly leftist podcaster had done what Huberman has done, would anyone be saying their a fascist?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:32 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
I'm losing my mind. Peterson, who is a shithead baby, AFAIK has been faithful to his wife of 30 plus years.
Like no one should trust huberman, he clearly has no problem lying. But its wild that people are reading about his absolutely monstrous personal behavior and then saying, well, he's clearly publicly a right wing authoritarian.
If an steadfastly leftist podcaster had done what Huberman has done, would anyone be saying their a fascist?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:32 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
My favorite Athletic Greens ad is Some More News, where Cody Johnston engages in malicious compliance by force-chugging a glass of the stuff on camera while visibly gagging. He never *says* it's nasty or a waste of time...
posted by Scattercat at 10:34 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 10:34 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
There's a J G Ballard quote I can't track down right now about how the next outbreak of fascism won't start in the beerhalls but in the gyms and health food stores.
Seems to be tracking pretty well.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:34 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
Seems to be tracking pretty well.
posted by thatwhichfalls at 10:34 AM on March 26 [12 favorites]
TL:DR yeah, checks out
The era in which I was professionally adjacent to Andy (before he moved to Stanford and pre-influencer young primary investigator), I also developed a theory that “people will tell you exactly who they are”.
I am stupid at Theory of Mind; I don’t know anything that’s going on inside someone else’s head. A lot of very brilliant (and neurotic) people in that professional circle were fairly sure they could. I would listen. They’d explain in clinical terms the internal motivations of everyone else. (Example: I had one person I still consider a good friend explain that another good friend stuttered for attention. If you know anything about the clinical presentation of stuttering or this friend that is opposite of what’s happening, but this person was confident. Hey!, they were brilliant and knew just enough to be dangerous without meaning to be). I realized when people are telling you about other people they’re just talking about themselves.**
Its an exhausting environment. But also I nor anyone in those professional circles is particularly surprised about the AH piece, albeit more detail and ad hominem. His lab all but closed years ago since he’s become the highest grossing podcast in the US. He now has a lot of time to publicly talk about what he finds interesting.
**the joke here is, what does that tell you about me? lol
posted by rubatan at 10:36 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
The era in which I was professionally adjacent to Andy (before he moved to Stanford and pre-influencer young primary investigator), I also developed a theory that “people will tell you exactly who they are”.
I am stupid at Theory of Mind; I don’t know anything that’s going on inside someone else’s head. A lot of very brilliant (and neurotic) people in that professional circle were fairly sure they could. I would listen. They’d explain in clinical terms the internal motivations of everyone else. (Example: I had one person I still consider a good friend explain that another good friend stuttered for attention. If you know anything about the clinical presentation of stuttering or this friend that is opposite of what’s happening, but this person was confident. Hey!, they were brilliant and knew just enough to be dangerous without meaning to be). I realized when people are telling you about other people they’re just talking about themselves.**
Its an exhausting environment. But also I nor anyone in those professional circles is particularly surprised about the AH piece, albeit more detail and ad hominem. His lab all but closed years ago since he’s become the highest grossing podcast in the US. He now has a lot of time to publicly talk about what he finds interesting.
**the joke here is, what does that tell you about me? lol
posted by rubatan at 10:36 AM on March 26 [16 favorites]
Random story: Andy wanted to do neuroscience in cuttlefish. Theory of Mind conversations were always in the milieu, so he’s certainly not to solely credit. But his aspiration was to watch the activity in a whole cuttlefish brain while their skin changed color for active camouflage. He dedicated a branch of his lab to it.
“What’s cool about this species? Their main predator is the same species. You can actually see on their skin what they think the other guy is thinking, while recording their brain activity.”-Andy
In the context of the manipulation presented in the article, suddenly chilling.
posted by rubatan at 10:41 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
“What’s cool about this species? Their main predator is the same species. You can actually see on their skin what they think the other guy is thinking, while recording their brain activity.”-Andy
In the context of the manipulation presented in the article, suddenly chilling.
posted by rubatan at 10:41 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
Guys, Huberman is nothing like Andrew Tate, a man who said his reason for moving to Romania is because Romanian police demand CCTV proof from the victims before prosecuting sexual assault crimes. He then spent time in Romanian prison on charges of sex trafficking minors. He is still on house arrest in Romania while this trial proceeds. He has been banned from every single major social media platform for verifiable hate speech.
Jordan Peterson has built his entire career around denying that trans people are real, or if they are real, arguing that they don't deserve legal protection, and thinks that gender studies departments are a theft of taxpayer money. I am begging people here to cultivate a single drop of media literacy before hook-line-and-sinker swallowing an article written by someone who was previously a vocal libertarian, of the "consent laws protect adults, not kids" variety, and who does not seem to have renounced so much as hidden these beliefs.
Yes, Huberman is a dork, yes, he behaved extremely poorly in his personal relationships. No, he is not the same as men who for years have incited violence against trans people, or men who have documented video evidence of them beating women, or women who have written articles that consent laws are indicative of government overreach.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:47 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
Jordan Peterson has built his entire career around denying that trans people are real, or if they are real, arguing that they don't deserve legal protection, and thinks that gender studies departments are a theft of taxpayer money. I am begging people here to cultivate a single drop of media literacy before hook-line-and-sinker swallowing an article written by someone who was previously a vocal libertarian, of the "consent laws protect adults, not kids" variety, and who does not seem to have renounced so much as hidden these beliefs.
Yes, Huberman is a dork, yes, he behaved extremely poorly in his personal relationships. No, he is not the same as men who for years have incited violence against trans people, or men who have documented video evidence of them beating women, or women who have written articles that consent laws are indicative of government overreach.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:47 AM on March 26 [8 favorites]
So I get that "guy with podcast" is a shorthand for a very specific combination of stuff, but maybe don't lump in (just as quick examples off the top of my head) Welcome To Night Vale or Snap Judgement with whatever archetype you're thinking of. I had no idea that when most people say "podcast" they seem to think of right-wing chat shows without a script. You may as well complain about "guy who publishes on paper".
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:52 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 10:52 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
toxic masculinity is a continuum on which Huberman exists somewhere in the middle of (generally where I would put someone who says 'we're exclusive, let's do it raw' and it turns out they've been lying and put your health at risk) and Tate on the far end of the other extreme. Peterson is like a notch to the left of Tate but arguably his reach is wider - Huberman, as a 'generalist' has an even wider reach, still, and has the most potential to radicalize people though seems content, at the moment, to shilling supplements
generally once a piece like this comes out, people who are privately toxically masculine but publicly 'fine' don't tend to take things very well (eg Louis CK) and end up vehicles for radicalization as they themselves go on a journey of self-destruction and contempt for their fellow person
it's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp
posted by paimapi at 10:57 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
generally once a piece like this comes out, people who are privately toxically masculine but publicly 'fine' don't tend to take things very well (eg Louis CK) and end up vehicles for radicalization as they themselves go on a journey of self-destruction and contempt for their fellow person
it's really not that difficult of a concept to grasp
posted by paimapi at 10:57 AM on March 26 [13 favorites]
Huberman? Oh yeah, that guy. I guess it was about a year ago he was suddenly everywhere across Youtube. His Optimal Morning Routine struck me at first as intriguing, but very quickly as ... seriously!?!? How is this not just weapon's grade obsession wrapped up in big neuroscience jargon (or whatever).
Anyway, he was easy to write off. But as a grifter? or as a particular kind of obsessive who was unlucky enough (for him and people who cared about him) to stumble into the zeitgeist at precisely the right time to be enabled and amplified and otherwise exposed as ... ... ? ... I guess, yet another passing symptom of the madness of our time.
Thinking about it now. I don't think grifter and obsessive cancel each other out at all -- bullshit and perfection being not uncommon bedfellows. But that said, I do kinda feel sorry for the guy. He seems genuinely lost and yet in plain sight.
If you're interested, my time time tested morning routine is 1. wake up, 2. urinate, 3. brush teeth, 4. make coffee.
I've been doing it for decades and I'm still alive and even halfway sane.
posted by philip-random at 10:59 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Anyway, he was easy to write off. But as a grifter? or as a particular kind of obsessive who was unlucky enough (for him and people who cared about him) to stumble into the zeitgeist at precisely the right time to be enabled and amplified and otherwise exposed as ... ... ? ... I guess, yet another passing symptom of the madness of our time.
Thinking about it now. I don't think grifter and obsessive cancel each other out at all -- bullshit and perfection being not uncommon bedfellows. But that said, I do kinda feel sorry for the guy. He seems genuinely lost and yet in plain sight.
If you're interested, my time time tested morning routine is 1. wake up, 2. urinate, 3. brush teeth, 4. make coffee.
I've been doing it for decades and I'm still alive and even halfway sane.
posted by philip-random at 10:59 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
Tate, in public, is a woman-beating misogynist who traps minors in foreign countries without passports in order to coerce them to film pornography for money, and then steals that money from them. Huberman, in public, releases podcasts about female hormonal health and how to deal with menopause and PMDD, or like, tells you not to look at your phone too much and do jumping jacks a couple times a week. If you think those things have a similar public impact I genuinely don't know what to tell you.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:01 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:01 AM on March 26 [7 favorites]
Can anyone point to anything racist or transphobic or homophobic or even misogynistic that Huberman has said in public? He's got like hundreds of hours of public speaking on the record, if he's a fascist it should be quite easy. We now know that he is horribly misogynistic in his private life. But like in two seconds I can find something horrible that Tate or Peterson or Rogan said.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:05 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:05 AM on March 26 [6 favorites]
To not further ad hominem by lumping with Rogan, Peterson, etc., in the neuro community (and those of us that kind of know/knew him) the question comes up often because fanboys ask what we think of AH.
A friend of mine (who did go to Stanford and was an early Elon fanboy, fwiw to fit those ad hominems) says “I’d rather people listen to Andy any day of the week. He’s at least trying to make a heartfelt effort to help people improve their lives semi-backed up by legitimate science. Peterson et al are pieces of shit that hide toxicity in intellect, Andy’s [public advice to people] intellect only sometimes gets misguided trying to distill a single objective out of messy science.”
So yeah, Andy’s an improvement, maybe a eye-rolling one to hardcore scientists. Just be reasonable and take it with a grain of salt, and accept he’s a deeply flawed human.
posted by rubatan at 11:06 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
A friend of mine (who did go to Stanford and was an early Elon fanboy, fwiw to fit those ad hominems) says “I’d rather people listen to Andy any day of the week. He’s at least trying to make a heartfelt effort to help people improve their lives semi-backed up by legitimate science. Peterson et al are pieces of shit that hide toxicity in intellect, Andy’s [public advice to people] intellect only sometimes gets misguided trying to distill a single objective out of messy science.”
So yeah, Andy’s an improvement, maybe a eye-rolling one to hardcore scientists. Just be reasonable and take it with a grain of salt, and accept he’s a deeply flawed human.
posted by rubatan at 11:06 AM on March 26 [9 favorites]
putting a pin in this thread to revisit once we see the kind of person/host Huberman develops into in the months following this piece. it's not the first nor will it be the last time people choose to arbitrarily die on the hill of a podcaster they have a parasocial relationship with instead of seeking greener grass of which there are plenty in the podcasting space (like if you really care about women's health and aren't just using it as a cudgel for 'look at how good this guy is bc he talks about women sometimes', there's literally podcasts by ob/gyns on reproductive health hosted and run by women themselves)
posted by paimapi at 11:11 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
posted by paimapi at 11:11 AM on March 26 [26 favorites]
I don't listen to Huberman (though I have consulted his "protocols" documents a few times) nor any other podcasts, I am merely pointing out that Tate and Peterson use their vast global influence for the perpetuation of vile, pernicious, actionable, and cruel misogyny, and Huberman uses his comparatively small but still meaningful influence for common-sense-based health interventions for men and women. I don't know what good it does anybody to pretend like these are even close to being the same thing.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:19 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:19 AM on March 26 [4 favorites]
I guess the morning sunlight works.
posted by betweenthebars at 11:21 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
posted by betweenthebars at 11:21 AM on March 26 [1 favorite]
I don't know if this guy is a clinical narcissist or a sociopath. And neither does anybody else here.
But I think we can all agree that he's certainly a superlative asshole
posted by BlueHorse at 11:48 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
But I think we can all agree that he's certainly a superlative asshole
posted by BlueHorse at 11:48 AM on March 26 [11 favorites]
Am I flawed by listening to him / “falling for it”? Am I fundamentally an irredeemable bro?
when it was not busy trying to be as cute as possible, the article was about how his exclusive concern for his own self - feeding it, watering it, sleeping it, walking it, pruning it, tending it, evaluating it, eliminating its flaws, redeeming its sins, serving it, building its reputation, soliciting admiration for it - was not good for other people. no matter how much he slept and no matter how much he exercised.
so I think maybe the first responses, or if that is too idealistic, the first articulated responses, to finding out a guy hates women generally and abuses them specifically ought not to show so strongly the influence of this exclusive concern with one’s own parts and qualities.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:00 PM on March 26 [20 favorites]
when it was not busy trying to be as cute as possible, the article was about how his exclusive concern for his own self - feeding it, watering it, sleeping it, walking it, pruning it, tending it, evaluating it, eliminating its flaws, redeeming its sins, serving it, building its reputation, soliciting admiration for it - was not good for other people. no matter how much he slept and no matter how much he exercised.
so I think maybe the first responses, or if that is too idealistic, the first articulated responses, to finding out a guy hates women generally and abuses them specifically ought not to show so strongly the influence of this exclusive concern with one’s own parts and qualities.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:00 PM on March 26 [20 favorites]
it's not the first nor will it be the last time people choose to arbitrarily die on the hill of a podcaster
Who is doing this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Who is doing this?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:20 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
He's got like hundreds of hours of public speaking on the record, if he's a fascist it should be quite easy. We now know that he is horribly misogynistic in his private life. But like in two seconds I can find something horrible that Tate or Peterson or Rogan said.
....Call me crazy, but I think "he may be a misogynist, but at least he's not public about it" is really not the defense you think it might be.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:23 PM on March 26 [23 favorites]
....Call me crazy, but I think "he may be a misogynist, but at least he's not public about it" is really not the defense you think it might be.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:23 PM on March 26 [23 favorites]
oh come on, don't willfully misread.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:24 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:24 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
If you're equating Huberman with Tate and Peterson that in effect defends Tate and Peterson in the same way it attacks Huberman!!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:26 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:26 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
oh come on, don't willfully misread.
What's the "willfull misread"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:29 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
What's the "willfull misread"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 12:29 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
That I'm defending Huberman and making excuses for him and somehow saying defending his misogyny when I am saying that he is not on the same level as Tate and Peterson.
So far everyone saying that Huberman = Rogan/Peterson/Tate failed to marshall any evidence toward this claim. Its all vibes and ick. If he was as toxic a public person as those are then why can't anyone present some evidence that he is?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:34 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
So far everyone saying that Huberman = Rogan/Peterson/Tate failed to marshall any evidence toward this claim. Its all vibes and ick. If he was as toxic a public person as those are then why can't anyone present some evidence that he is?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:34 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry that Stanford wasted a tenured line on him. I don't particularly like his podcast.
Yet I'm still very uncomfortable with this hit piece, for reasons similar to what MisantropicPainforest wrote. This is his private life.
He's not a public bigot; none of the approaches to life he pushes so strongly are harmful to women, or to people in general. The world will not be a worse place if every person in it follows his public recommendations. He's not representing or advocating, well, anything but pretty generic health and self-improvement. He's not misrepresenting himself, or committing fraud. We're very used to people who are, and I think that's part of the kneejerk rubbernecky interest in this article.
He's a narcissistic ass in his private life. That backfired on him already, well before this article was written or published. He got his, he FA and FO.
But I think it's weird, and wrong, to publicly hang him out to dry when there is not public harm on the line. This is just a private soap opera that is frankly none of our business.
posted by Dashy at 12:38 PM on March 26 [13 favorites]
Yet I'm still very uncomfortable with this hit piece, for reasons similar to what MisantropicPainforest wrote. This is his private life.
He's not a public bigot; none of the approaches to life he pushes so strongly are harmful to women, or to people in general. The world will not be a worse place if every person in it follows his public recommendations. He's not representing or advocating, well, anything but pretty generic health and self-improvement. He's not misrepresenting himself, or committing fraud. We're very used to people who are, and I think that's part of the kneejerk rubbernecky interest in this article.
He's a narcissistic ass in his private life. That backfired on him already, well before this article was written or published. He got his, he FA and FO.
But I think it's weird, and wrong, to publicly hang him out to dry when there is not public harm on the line. This is just a private soap opera that is frankly none of our business.
posted by Dashy at 12:38 PM on March 26 [13 favorites]
Yet I'm still very uncomfortable with this hit piece, for reasons similar to what MisantropicPainforest wrote. This is his private life.
For the record I think this piece is very good and this type of investigation is important, science relies on trust and I guess podcasting does too. This isn't 'hes a bad boyfriend' its 'he's a moral monster of really unimaginable levels'. Its entirely relevant. If he's lying to the people closest to him he's lying on his podcast too.
None of that makes him a fascist tho.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:45 PM on March 26 [9 favorites]
For the record I think this piece is very good and this type of investigation is important, science relies on trust and I guess podcasting does too. This isn't 'hes a bad boyfriend' its 'he's a moral monster of really unimaginable levels'. Its entirely relevant. If he's lying to the people closest to him he's lying on his podcast too.
None of that makes him a fascist tho.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:45 PM on March 26 [9 favorites]
My morning routine is Whatever Happens. Might sneak out to the gym at 0445, might fail my stealth roll and spend an hour trying to get a three year old back to sleep, might try some eggs, might go hungry. I look forward to the surprise.
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 12:58 PM on March 26 [18 favorites]
posted by The Monster at the End of this Thread at 12:58 PM on March 26 [18 favorites]
I only have heard Huberman talk on Science Vs (they grill him a little bit but not a lot). In the show he talks about his life and his ascent from youth detention center to Stanford professor. It is hilarious that he mentions his dad is a scientist but not that his dad is literally a professor at Stanford.
the transcript is here.
posted by dreyfusfinucane at 1:14 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
the transcript is here.
posted by dreyfusfinucane at 1:14 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
My favorite Athletic Greens ad is Some More News, where Cody Johnston engages in malicious compliance by force-chugging a glass of the stuff on camera while visibly gagging. He never *says* it's nasty or a waste of time...
I'd never seen Some More News before a few days ago, and have watched a lot of it over the last few days, and honest-to-god wasn't sure if Athletic Greens was an actual sponsor of the show or if Cody was doing a bit to satirize them.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:21 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
I'd never seen Some More News before a few days ago, and have watched a lot of it over the last few days, and honest-to-god wasn't sure if Athletic Greens was an actual sponsor of the show or if Cody was doing a bit to satirize them.
posted by Navelgazer at 1:21 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
Yeah, this probably isn't newsworthy... and yet...
In the wake of #metoo I think it's still kind of unresolved to what extent it's in the public interest to reveal that a popular media personality treats women like trash. I'm reading this article partly as a swing at taking public one of those "missing-stair" lists that gets circulated in private message groups etc. It might be overreach but I'm not sure that the boundaries of acceptable have fully settled yet. Honestly it reminds me a bit of the questions raised by Signorile outing closeted gay republicans in the 90s.
I'm also thinking about Naomi Klein's equation from Doppelganger:
“Narcissism (Grandiosity) + Social media addiction + Midlife crisis ÷ Public shaming = Right-wing meltdown”.
I agree that Huberman isn't currently publicly presenting as a RWNJ. (Definitely his ideas very comfortably fit into the RWNJ Pipeline but I think Painforest is right that one must be wary of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.) I'm very curious to see whether Huberman takes the predicted turn to right-wing meltdown.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 1:28 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
In the wake of #metoo I think it's still kind of unresolved to what extent it's in the public interest to reveal that a popular media personality treats women like trash. I'm reading this article partly as a swing at taking public one of those "missing-stair" lists that gets circulated in private message groups etc. It might be overreach but I'm not sure that the boundaries of acceptable have fully settled yet. Honestly it reminds me a bit of the questions raised by Signorile outing closeted gay republicans in the 90s.
I'm also thinking about Naomi Klein's equation from Doppelganger:
“Narcissism (Grandiosity) + Social media addiction + Midlife crisis ÷ Public shaming = Right-wing meltdown”.
I agree that Huberman isn't currently publicly presenting as a RWNJ. (Definitely his ideas very comfortably fit into the RWNJ Pipeline but I think Painforest is right that one must be wary of throwing the baby out with the bathwater here.) I'm very curious to see whether Huberman takes the predicted turn to right-wing meltdown.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 1:28 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
No, I don't believe I'll be giving Andrew Huberman the benefit of the doubt.
posted by AlSweigart at 1:31 PM on March 26 [10 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 1:31 PM on March 26 [10 favorites]
I'll also add that I am not far removed from him in professional circles, and even in these last few days I have not (yet) heard harmful stories about him as a mentor/professor/teacher in those circles. It wouldn't surprise me, but as yet they are absent (actually, it does surprise me that they are absent). That would be a context in which his personal approach to women would be worthwhile evidence, and newsworthy.
posted by Dashy at 1:49 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 1:49 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
On my curated Twitter list of evidence-based medical folk, people are mostly puzzled why this article says so little about Huberman's shaky science and reliability, and speculating that the author doesn't have the contacts with expertise to talk about it.
(to be clear this would not preclude his practical advice being useful and sensible any more than Jordan Peterson saying "you'll feel better if you tidy your room" makes him reliable).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:24 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
(to be clear this would not preclude his practical advice being useful and sensible any more than Jordan Peterson saying "you'll feel better if you tidy your room" makes him reliable).
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:24 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
I'd like to know what Pontypool-grade memetic accelerant they're embedding in daddy podcasts such that people feel the need to go to bat for an influential, very-platformed figure on a World Heritage Internet Antique such as Metafilter. It's so, so weird to me.
posted by german_bight at 2:25 PM on March 26 [11 favorites]
posted by german_bight at 2:25 PM on March 26 [11 favorites]
Also I am willing to bet Hubes will take a public turn to RWNJ, because that's where his fan base is, and they will be supportive. So even if he isn't red-pilled yet, he will go where the love is.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:25 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:25 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
This is just a private soap opera that is frankly none of our business.
oh come off of it. we have a literal industry devoted to biographies, fictionalized historic dramas, etc, some of it for better or worse but it's not as if it's so totally morally deranged that someone with a pulpit would eventually be scrutinized for their behavior beyond just their public mask
it's absolutely unfair to random, non-powerful individuals without a platform to do the same kind of scrutiny, sure. some people are private individuals. Huberman has 1.2 million followers on Twitter, many of whom are in this thread making a huge deal about how he's definitely not as bad as Andrew Tate and would derail an entire conversation repeatedly point out that yes, sure, he's not an actual human trafficker golly, let's just keep lowering the bar bc soon be tapping into the Earth's molten core and that'll as assuredly solve the energy crisis as Huberman's supplements will your love life
that he's getting a piece dedicated to how he's a stereotypical scumbag in real life in direct contrast to his on-air 'good-guy-trying-his-best' persona is a long overdue comeuppance given how much absolute bullshit he shills on his podcast just so he can make a buck
again, there are so many better hills to die on than for Huberman. investing this much energy into someone who is a well-evinced piece of shit doesn't make you a Peterson defender but it assuredly does put you in the phenotype of someone who apparently finds it difficult to kill their cishet bro podcast darling even though it's been incredibly easy for the rest of us to do the same given how just categorically and persistently shit their track records have been
posted by paimapi at 2:32 PM on March 26 [25 favorites]
oh come off of it. we have a literal industry devoted to biographies, fictionalized historic dramas, etc, some of it for better or worse but it's not as if it's so totally morally deranged that someone with a pulpit would eventually be scrutinized for their behavior beyond just their public mask
it's absolutely unfair to random, non-powerful individuals without a platform to do the same kind of scrutiny, sure. some people are private individuals. Huberman has 1.2 million followers on Twitter, many of whom are in this thread making a huge deal about how he's definitely not as bad as Andrew Tate and would derail an entire conversation repeatedly point out that yes, sure, he's not an actual human trafficker golly, let's just keep lowering the bar bc soon be tapping into the Earth's molten core and that'll as assuredly solve the energy crisis as Huberman's supplements will your love life
that he's getting a piece dedicated to how he's a stereotypical scumbag in real life in direct contrast to his on-air 'good-guy-trying-his-best' persona is a long overdue comeuppance given how much absolute bullshit he shills on his podcast just so he can make a buck
again, there are so many better hills to die on than for Huberman. investing this much energy into someone who is a well-evinced piece of shit doesn't make you a Peterson defender but it assuredly does put you in the phenotype of someone who apparently finds it difficult to kill their cishet bro podcast darling even though it's been incredibly easy for the rest of us to do the same given how just categorically and persistently shit their track records have been
posted by paimapi at 2:32 PM on March 26 [25 favorites]
That I'm defending Huberman and making excuses for him and somehow saying defending his misogyny when I am saying that he is not on the same level as Tate and Peterson.
Okay, so then what ARE you doing? Why hash out what "level" of asshole he happens to occupy in the first place?
I mean, the nine different rings of hell in Dante's INFERNO were at different levels of severity, but they all were still in hell, yeah?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:40 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
Okay, so then what ARE you doing? Why hash out what "level" of asshole he happens to occupy in the first place?
I mean, the nine different rings of hell in Dante's INFERNO were at different levels of severity, but they all were still in hell, yeah?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:40 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
Because calling literally everything fascist is intellectually lazy, misses the true threat, is bad politics?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:48 PM on March 26 [16 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:48 PM on March 26 [16 favorites]
none of the approaches to life he pushes so strongly are harmful to women, or to people in general.
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to create norms of not talking about relationships publicly and to justify it as 'just a thing he does to keep his privacy', only to wind up being a harmful and abusive thing he does so that he can cheat on and gaslight multiple women.
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to create norms of life routines, such as exercise, "icy plunges", sauna time, and nutritiously curated meals, that require a hidden partner to maintain, while pretending that they don't. Remember, he is telling the world that they can perform these nutrition items on their own, but in fact, he is having women perform them for him. Huberman says he turns off his phone and keeps it out of the room - but what do you want to bet that he has girlfriends performing social secretary duties for him? How do you think 'Sarah' got the phone password to even see those messages from the other girlfriends in the first place?
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to suggest avoiding 'toxic people' when those 'toxic people' are just 'people who have needs'.
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to teach mechanisms of control to other men when it's become obvious those mechanisms of control are inherently abusive.
And I would argue it's extremely harmful to people in general to push deception and bullshit, especially from men: to push fakery. From the article:
posted by corb at 2:53 PM on March 26 [46 favorites]
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to create norms of not talking about relationships publicly and to justify it as 'just a thing he does to keep his privacy', only to wind up being a harmful and abusive thing he does so that he can cheat on and gaslight multiple women.
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to create norms of life routines, such as exercise, "icy plunges", sauna time, and nutritiously curated meals, that require a hidden partner to maintain, while pretending that they don't. Remember, he is telling the world that they can perform these nutrition items on their own, but in fact, he is having women perform them for him. Huberman says he turns off his phone and keeps it out of the room - but what do you want to bet that he has girlfriends performing social secretary duties for him? How do you think 'Sarah' got the phone password to even see those messages from the other girlfriends in the first place?
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to suggest avoiding 'toxic people' when those 'toxic people' are just 'people who have needs'.
I would argue that it's extremely harmful to women to teach mechanisms of control to other men when it's become obvious those mechanisms of control are inherently abusive.
And I would argue it's extremely harmful to people in general to push deception and bullshit, especially from men: to push fakery. From the article:
In a glowing 2023 profile in Stanford magazine, we learn “Everything he does is inspired by this love,” but do not learn that Huberman lives 350 miles and a six-hour drive from Stanford University, making it difficult to drop into the lab. Compounding the issue is the fact that the lab, according to knowledgeable sources, barely exists.....The world does not need more men learning that it's okay to bullshit without sources.
On every episode of his “zero-cost” podcast, Huberman gives a lengthy endorsement of a powder formerly known as Athletic Greens and now as AG1. It is one thing to hear Athletic Greens promoted by Joe Rogan; it is perhaps another to hear someone who sells himself as a Stanford University scientist just back from the lab proclaim that this $79-a-month powder “covers all of your foundational nutritional needs.” In an industry not noted for its integrity, AG1 is, according to writer and professional debunker Derek Beres, “one of the most egregious players in the space.”
posted by corb at 2:53 PM on March 26 [46 favorites]
Why hash out what "level" of asshole he happens to occupy in the first place?
I realize this has already been answered, but I'd say the hashing out is important because there is a right-wing pipeline for this stuff. Everybody's got their sins, and you want to know if a given person's sins are within your tolerance levels. You may not be able to tolerate someone who has been captured by the supplement industry. Or you might go with that because they have some other interesting things to say, but the minute they start pushing NAD+ at you, you tune out. If someone is really good on the science, but is a bad boyfriend--well, most bad boyfriends don't get their personal lives exposed in major publications--but nonetheless, you might not be able to stomach reading or listening to the person after that. There's just this kinda vague handwavy scale of morality, and jumping directly to "fascism" doesn't give you the information you need to know whether the guy sucks or not. We all know there's a path there--he was anti-lockdown, seems to rub elbows with antivaxers to some extent--but he's got to actually say the words before we say 'fascism' because that word has to really, really mean something, if it's to remain an unforgivable sin. We can't let it be watered down.
And like, none of that is a defense of him. He's a really bad boyfriend in a REALLY predictable and gross way! His science is iffy, he networks with bad people, he shills for supplements. All valid points against him!
But we need to be careful with our moral categories so they maintain their force.
posted by mittens at 3:08 PM on March 26 [10 favorites]
I realize this has already been answered, but I'd say the hashing out is important because there is a right-wing pipeline for this stuff. Everybody's got their sins, and you want to know if a given person's sins are within your tolerance levels. You may not be able to tolerate someone who has been captured by the supplement industry. Or you might go with that because they have some other interesting things to say, but the minute they start pushing NAD+ at you, you tune out. If someone is really good on the science, but is a bad boyfriend--well, most bad boyfriends don't get their personal lives exposed in major publications--but nonetheless, you might not be able to stomach reading or listening to the person after that. There's just this kinda vague handwavy scale of morality, and jumping directly to "fascism" doesn't give you the information you need to know whether the guy sucks or not. We all know there's a path there--he was anti-lockdown, seems to rub elbows with antivaxers to some extent--but he's got to actually say the words before we say 'fascism' because that word has to really, really mean something, if it's to remain an unforgivable sin. We can't let it be watered down.
And like, none of that is a defense of him. He's a really bad boyfriend in a REALLY predictable and gross way! His science is iffy, he networks with bad people, he shills for supplements. All valid points against him!
But we need to be careful with our moral categories so they maintain their force.
posted by mittens at 3:08 PM on March 26 [10 favorites]
You know, in this whole discussion everyone assumes it's an article about Andrew Huberman. Which it his, being a celebrity thinkfluencer and all.
But the article I liked was the story about Sarah. And Eve. And Alex. And Mary.
But the article I liked was the story about Sarah. And Eve. And Alex. And Mary.
Instead of texting Andrew, Sarah texted Alex. Sometimes they just talked about their days and not about Andrew at all. ...posted by Nelson at 3:27 PM on March 26 [17 favorites]
Three of the women on the group text met up in New York in February, and the group has only grown closer. On any given day, one of the five can go into an appointment and come back to 100 texts. ... They are holding space for other women who might join.
The thing that frightens me here is the mefites who are reading an article chock-full of coercive control and emotional abuse and reducing that to "bad boyfriend".
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:51 PM on March 26 [35 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 3:51 PM on March 26 [35 favorites]
> But the article I liked was the story about Sarah. And Eve. And Alex. And Mary
I cracked up at how they use his verbal tics in their chat. Mmmmmmmm.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:52 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
I cracked up at how they use his verbal tics in their chat. Mmmmmmmm.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:52 PM on March 26 [5 favorites]
It's also part of the reactionary pipeline for his supporters/defenders (and eventually him) to nurture and maintain grievances that "steadfastly leftist" critics aren't following some sort of rhetorical due process in a way that is "water[ing] down" "our moral categories." I second other commenters that it's wild to see it here.
posted by Earthtopus at 3:54 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
posted by Earthtopus at 3:54 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
The thing that frightens me here is the mefites who are reading an article chock-full of coercive control and emotional abuse and reducing that to "bad boyfriend".
The thing that frightens me here is the mefites who are reading an article chock-full of coercive control and emotional abuse and extrapolating "FASCIST!"
Maybe he is. Maybe he's the antichrist. Maybe he's a socialist. He does seem to be a huge asshole, at least in private, an educated meathead with no problem pushing bogus supplements publicly. FFS, is that not enough reason to be critical?
posted by 2N2222 at 4:49 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
The thing that frightens me here is the mefites who are reading an article chock-full of coercive control and emotional abuse and extrapolating "FASCIST!"
Maybe he is. Maybe he's the antichrist. Maybe he's a socialist. He does seem to be a huge asshole, at least in private, an educated meathead with no problem pushing bogus supplements publicly. FFS, is that not enough reason to be critical?
posted by 2N2222 at 4:49 PM on March 26 [3 favorites]
Boy, did Yeats nail it with "..the worst are full of passionate intensity," or what?
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:55 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:55 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
Christ, what an asshole.
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 5:15 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
posted by fuzzy.little.sock at 5:15 PM on March 26 [8 favorites]
I haven't read the article yet, but I have watched a few Huberman youtube podcasts, thought they were interesting, realized I shouldn't check my phone at night when I should be sleeping. I was kind of wondering what his deal was, but I never got a clue whether he was even attracted to women tbh, he could have been gay for all I know. I couldn't guess what his politics were.
I find it weird that people take so much joy when people are outed as asshole - maybe the same way some of you find it weird that people might defend those people. Jumping immediately to calling him a fascist, far right wing Andrew Tate sympathizer seems kind of weird to me, and I always find it particularly annoying when they say oh yeah I knew all along.
Again, why do people take such glee in finding out that people are actually horrible? It makes me feel really sad.
Someone I knew in my early 20s, a complete asshole who was dating my best friend, the kind of person that when his name comes up everyone says, do you think he's a psychopath or just a sociopath? became a silicon valley venture capitalist, and I see his name mentioned a lot as a great guy. Then he was involved in a Me Too lawsuit and his MO had not changed one bit since our 20s when I had to constantly fend him off and call him a pig. But guess what? This guy is a progressive leftist who gives a lot of money to left wing causes.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:34 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
I find it weird that people take so much joy when people are outed as asshole - maybe the same way some of you find it weird that people might defend those people. Jumping immediately to calling him a fascist, far right wing Andrew Tate sympathizer seems kind of weird to me, and I always find it particularly annoying when they say oh yeah I knew all along.
Again, why do people take such glee in finding out that people are actually horrible? It makes me feel really sad.
Someone I knew in my early 20s, a complete asshole who was dating my best friend, the kind of person that when his name comes up everyone says, do you think he's a psychopath or just a sociopath? became a silicon valley venture capitalist, and I see his name mentioned a lot as a great guy. Then he was involved in a Me Too lawsuit and his MO had not changed one bit since our 20s when I had to constantly fend him off and call him a pig. But guess what? This guy is a progressive leftist who gives a lot of money to left wing causes.
posted by maggiemaggie at 5:34 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
The thing that frightens me here is the mefites who are reading an article chock-full of coercive control and emotional abuse and extrapolating "FASCIST!"
A couple weeks ago J. K. Rowling denied and brushed off the idea that the Nazis persecuted trans people so maybe "the Harry Potter lady going from transphobia to now doing selective Holocaust denial" along with everything else has made us notice these obvious trends? Because it's REALLY important to notice these things before they get to... *gestures towards rest of the world*
posted by AlSweigart at 6:17 PM on March 26 [14 favorites]
A couple weeks ago J. K. Rowling denied and brushed off the idea that the Nazis persecuted trans people so maybe "the Harry Potter lady going from transphobia to now doing selective Holocaust denial" along with everything else has made us notice these obvious trends? Because it's REALLY important to notice these things before they get to... *gestures towards rest of the world*
posted by AlSweigart at 6:17 PM on March 26 [14 favorites]
OK I read the article. The man has issues but here are two actual quotes:
At least three ex-girlfriends remain friendly with Huberman. He “goes deep very quickly,” says Keegan Amit, who dated Andrew from 2010 to 2017 and continues to admire him. “He has incredible emotional capacity.” A high-school girlfriend says both she and he were “troubled” during their time together, that he was complicated and jealous but “a good person” whom she parted with on good terms. “He really wants to get involved emotionally but then can’t quite follow through,” says someone he dated on and off between 2006 and 2010. “But yeah. I don’t think it’s …” She hesitates. “I think he has such a good heart.”
Andrew attended Gunn, a high-performing, high-pressure high school. Classmates describe him as always with a skateboard; they remember him as pleasant, “sweet,” and not particularly academic. He would, says one former classmate, “drop in on the half-pipe,” where he was “encouraging” to other skaters. “I mean, he was a cool, individual kid,” says another classmate. “There was one year he, like, bleached his hair and everyone was like, ‘Oh, that guy’s cool.’” It was a wealthy place, the kind of setting where the word au pair comes up frequently, and Andrew did not stand out to his classmates as out of control or unpredictable. They do not recall him getting into street fights, as Andrew claims he did. He was, says Andrew’s father, “a little bit troubled, yes, but it was not something super-serious.”
I'm not interested in defending him, that's it from me. When he has Andrew Tate on his podcast you can say I told you so.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:32 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
At least three ex-girlfriends remain friendly with Huberman. He “goes deep very quickly,” says Keegan Amit, who dated Andrew from 2010 to 2017 and continues to admire him. “He has incredible emotional capacity.” A high-school girlfriend says both she and he were “troubled” during their time together, that he was complicated and jealous but “a good person” whom she parted with on good terms. “He really wants to get involved emotionally but then can’t quite follow through,” says someone he dated on and off between 2006 and 2010. “But yeah. I don’t think it’s …” She hesitates. “I think he has such a good heart.”
Andrew attended Gunn, a high-performing, high-pressure high school. Classmates describe him as always with a skateboard; they remember him as pleasant, “sweet,” and not particularly academic. He would, says one former classmate, “drop in on the half-pipe,” where he was “encouraging” to other skaters. “I mean, he was a cool, individual kid,” says another classmate. “There was one year he, like, bleached his hair and everyone was like, ‘Oh, that guy’s cool.’” It was a wealthy place, the kind of setting where the word au pair comes up frequently, and Andrew did not stand out to his classmates as out of control or unpredictable. They do not recall him getting into street fights, as Andrew claims he did. He was, says Andrew’s father, “a little bit troubled, yes, but it was not something super-serious.”
I'm not interested in defending him, that's it from me. When he has Andrew Tate on his podcast you can say I told you so.
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:32 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
You read those quotes and concluded he’s a fascist?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:38 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:38 PM on March 26 [2 favorites]
Because calling literally everything fascist is intellectually lazy, misses the true threat, is bad politics?
The only "true threat" I see is that while we're nitpicking about whether the term "fascist" is or is not accurate, the fact that he is a narcissistic misogynist is being COMPLETELY buried, and there are MANY MANY women in here who are REALLY sick of our concerns getting bulldozed yet again by someone who wants to quantify the exact scale of badness he happens to occupy.
who cares if it's "bad politics". So what if people want to call him "fascist", maybe that's just the word they decided to use instead of "fuckweasel".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:46 PM on March 26 [16 favorites]
The only "true threat" I see is that while we're nitpicking about whether the term "fascist" is or is not accurate, the fact that he is a narcissistic misogynist is being COMPLETELY buried, and there are MANY MANY women in here who are REALLY sick of our concerns getting bulldozed yet again by someone who wants to quantify the exact scale of badness he happens to occupy.
who cares if it's "bad politics". So what if people want to call him "fascist", maybe that's just the word they decided to use instead of "fuckweasel".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:46 PM on March 26 [16 favorites]
Plenty of fuckweasals on the left, the pothole in assuming ‘fuckweasels are fascists’ is that it is standing right next to ‘this guy isn’t a fascist so he must not be a sexually harassing fuckweasel’. Please note that I have no interest in defending Huberman, I have no idea what section of the Venn diagram of fuckweasel/fascist he is in and no interest in finding out.
posted by bq at 6:56 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
posted by bq at 6:56 PM on March 26 [6 favorites]
This is his private life.
I mean, no. This isn't [Celebrity] leaves his wife for [Other Celebrity]. It's a clear pattern of serious emotional abuse. "Sarah" describes him gaslighting her, deliberately risking her sexual health, breaking her down emotionally, not letting her sleep. Abusers are everyone's business, actually. They don't deserve privacy for that.
His weaponizing of therapy-speak reminds me of Jonah Hill's attempts to control his girlfriend by telling her, basically, that she couldn't have her career or see any of her former friends, and framing that as communication. Communication of you being a dick, buddy!
Even his interactions with other men are weird. He invited that other professor over to go camping and then left him puttering around his apartment for hours with no communication? That is a weirdo power move.
I know some people are saying fascist and he might take refuge in the right like a lot of called-out abusers do, but honestly? The vibe I'm getting here is wannabe cult leader.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:58 PM on March 26 [12 favorites]
I mean, no. This isn't [Celebrity] leaves his wife for [Other Celebrity]. It's a clear pattern of serious emotional abuse. "Sarah" describes him gaslighting her, deliberately risking her sexual health, breaking her down emotionally, not letting her sleep. Abusers are everyone's business, actually. They don't deserve privacy for that.
His weaponizing of therapy-speak reminds me of Jonah Hill's attempts to control his girlfriend by telling her, basically, that she couldn't have her career or see any of her former friends, and framing that as communication. Communication of you being a dick, buddy!
Even his interactions with other men are weird. He invited that other professor over to go camping and then left him puttering around his apartment for hours with no communication? That is a weirdo power move.
I know some people are saying fascist and he might take refuge in the right like a lot of called-out abusers do, but honestly? The vibe I'm getting here is wannabe cult leader.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 6:58 PM on March 26 [12 favorites]
Yeah, i don't give a shit whether he's a fascist or not (but every misogynist is already at least one step down the road to fascism, because fundamentally, a misogynist is a cop with no badge). He's clearly a fucking abuser, and that part is pretty important! Why do you want to be in a parasocial relationship with a fucking abuser, whether or not he has nice healthcare content?
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:01 PM on March 26 [26 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:01 PM on March 26 [26 favorites]
I swear, some of y'all sound like a 1950s guy saying "sure, he hits his wife, but it's none of my business -- she's his wife!"
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:03 PM on March 26 [15 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 7:03 PM on March 26 [15 favorites]
For those of you who may not have read it, the evergreen Notes Towards A Theory Of A Manarchist may help people understand why there is pushback against this guy even if he himself is not ostensibly espousing right-wing politics.
The Manarchist loves women, and so does not need to listen to them. His position is a politics of entitlement, cis maleness, whiteness. His voice is louder, his words truer. His anarchist future is inevitable, drawn from books written by other white men. It is a superior vision. He knows more about any given topic than you, for he has a degree in it.posted by corb at 8:17 PM on March 26 [44 favorites]
...
he is polyamorous (fucks lots of women) and kinky (dominant). The Manarchist knows that marriage is a capitalist institution, so he’s exploring relationship anarchy. He is throwing off patriarchal constraints like loyalty, responsibility, housework. His girlfriends have a propensity to jealousy, which is not his fault. They’re paranoid, which is not his fault. They remember things wrongly. For some reason they won’t fuck each other while he watches, which shows the lie of women’s liberation.
...
The Manarchist’s ‘anarchism’ is hierarchical politics by men who are not in charge yet. He is white supremacist patriarchy in black bloc. He is not an outlier. He is in every left social circle, and so are his Manarchist friends. The Manarchist is a normal guy who dedicates his life to making a better world. If anything, you are the counter-revolutionary.
Most of us, particularly women, have a story to tell about about the Manarchist. Yet he is hard to tell stories about. The Manarchist gets away with it. He is popular. He does practical solidarity work. He is the best activist. He is the best at saying he is the best.
Oh yeah, the Manarchist is totally a thing. I can personally say that describes Jacob Applebaum. Thanks for posting that link.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:29 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
posted by AlSweigart at 8:29 PM on March 26 [4 favorites]
oh come on, don't willfully misread.
The beam in thine own eye
posted by eviemath at 4:20 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
The beam in thine own eye
posted by eviemath at 4:20 AM on March 27 [1 favorite]
As a biologist, this guy sounds like every single "evo-psych" guru over the years. I went to grad school with a guy like this. I work with a guy like this, although his podcast is not this successful. I think every biologist I know went to grad school with a guy like this and works with a guy like this.
Of course his lab doesn't really exist anymore because grifting is more profitable than science. I knew professors like that when I was in grad school, although that was pre-podcast and YouTube era, so they were making their bucks on the book and lecture circuit.
I love teaching real evolutionary biology to my students. I hate having to refute myth after lie after bullshit that my students have already absorbed from YouTube and podcasts. This shit is a fucking plague. I can't even imagine how much worse my colleagues in exercise and health sciences must have it. Their classes are probably entirely mythbusting 101 day after day after day.
And of course he mistreats women. They all mistreat women. Wait until someone manages to find the email list of his former female postdocs and grad students (assuming he ever had any).
posted by hydropsyche at 4:25 AM on March 27 [23 favorites]
Of course his lab doesn't really exist anymore because grifting is more profitable than science. I knew professors like that when I was in grad school, although that was pre-podcast and YouTube era, so they were making their bucks on the book and lecture circuit.
I love teaching real evolutionary biology to my students. I hate having to refute myth after lie after bullshit that my students have already absorbed from YouTube and podcasts. This shit is a fucking plague. I can't even imagine how much worse my colleagues in exercise and health sciences must have it. Their classes are probably entirely mythbusting 101 day after day after day.
And of course he mistreats women. They all mistreat women. Wait until someone manages to find the email list of his former female postdocs and grad students (assuming he ever had any).
posted by hydropsyche at 4:25 AM on March 27 [23 favorites]
Some of you all seem to be forgetting that Jordan Peterson started out as an a somewhat lauded/somewhat controversial academic at a high status institution who gave what many argued was reasonable (though presented as having more scientific basis or certainty than it did in actuality) “clean your room and get your shit together” life advice to a similar demographic of young men. Folks are saying that he appears to be on the same path or pipeline as Peterson because he is doing the same things as got Peterson his start, and has some of the same misogyny and control issues. Meanwhile you’re reading that and conflating “pipeline” and “well trodden path” down to thinking folks are saying that both ends of that path are identical. The ontological collapse is at your end, not, eg., Frowner’s.
posted by eviemath at 4:29 AM on March 27 [17 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:29 AM on March 27 [17 favorites]
That historical (like the Nazis) or modern (like Peter Thiel) fascists are weird about fitness in specific ways (focus on purity, optimization (relative to certain implicit values about “best”), control over one’s own as well as others’ bodies, within a hyper-individualist emphasis) is well-documented. That Huberman’s focus overlaps or aligns well with is a relevant detail to notice because it provides a mechanism for the pipeline he seems to be on. He’s at the optimization starting point instead of the purity starting point that is typical of the Wellness to right wing pipeline, but while the optimization starting point hasn’t been the topic of as many recent Metafilter posts, it’s nevertheless a historically well-trodden path.
posted by eviemath at 4:48 AM on March 27 [18 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 4:48 AM on March 27 [18 favorites]
Even if Huberman is not a fascist (I don't believe he is, but he is keeping some shady fellow white male company), I agree with other posters that this is reprehensible behaviour of a partner. It would be one thing if everyone involved was in an established and agreed-upon poly situation, but no, this guy used his fame to have many relationships, lying all the while. Is it surprising? Well no, not if you're a woman, but men tend to give another men a pass on this behaviour, glossing over the hurt he caused those partners and instead focusing on his good name and work. They'll be like, "yeah that is really crappy that he did that BUT HIS SCIENCE IS SOUND/CATCHY. " Like, I don't care if his morning routine takes you closer to your optimized self when you're treating women--and others--like dirt. How you treat your partners and friends is more important than whether or not ten minutes of sunlight when you wake up is life-changing.
posted by Kitteh at 5:28 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 5:28 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
Some of you all seem to be forgetting that Jordan Peterson started out as an a somewhat lauded/somewhat controversial academic at a high status institution who gave what many argued was reasonable (though presented as having more scientific basis or certainty than it did in actuality) “clean your room and get your shit together” life advice to a similar demographic of young men.
He first became famous for complaining about pronouns, then wrote the quora post that turned into his second book.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:29 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
He first became famous for complaining about pronouns, then wrote the quora post that turned into his second book.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:29 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
Anyway, whatever, it's okay to find apples in a bucket of shit, not really judging, just wash them off and maybe go find somewhere better to look for apples.
This resonated with me and answered my question (i.e. should someone stop listening to his podcast) - thank youseanmpuckett.
paimapi - thank you for providing some alternatives.
posted by web5.0 at 6:52 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
This resonated with me and answered my question (i.e. should someone stop listening to his podcast) - thank youseanmpuckett.
paimapi - thank you for providing some alternatives.
posted by web5.0 at 6:52 AM on March 27 [2 favorites]
There are some very disturbing comments in the NY mag article. Apparently this has been going on a long time. Someone mentioned they should talk to his former students.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:06 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:06 AM on March 27 [4 favorites]
There is a definite pipeline from abusive celebrity to right-winger. That being said, I appreciate the people in this thread who are trying to remind us that men all over the political spectrum can be abusive. Pointing that out isn't somehow a defense of Huberman.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:32 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:32 AM on March 27 [7 favorites]
There is a definite pipeline from abusive celebrity to right-winger. That being said, I appreciate the people in this thread who are trying to remind us that men all over the political spectrum can be abusive. Pointing that out isn't somehow a defense of Huberman.
True, but there's a bit of a difference between "guys on both sides can be abusive" and "he's not a fascist". It was also starting to feel like the debate about "fascist - aye or nay" was taking over the conversation, and overshadowing the very real and much more verifiable "misogynist - aye or nay" debate, and I think an awful lot of us women would rather the focus be on whether he is or is not a misogynist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:11 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
True, but there's a bit of a difference between "guys on both sides can be abusive" and "he's not a fascist". It was also starting to feel like the debate about "fascist - aye or nay" was taking over the conversation, and overshadowing the very real and much more verifiable "misogynist - aye or nay" debate, and I think an awful lot of us women would rather the focus be on whether he is or is not a misogynist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:11 AM on March 27 [9 favorites]
there's a bit of a difference between "guys on both sides can be abusive" and "he's not a fascist"
I think it's actually more complex than that, though.
I think there's a certain subset of white cis men who feel entitled to power and control by virtue of their existence, and they bitterly resent not having it. Often, those men are found on the right openly talking about how times were better when women knew their place and how socialism is the downfall of civilization and everything is the fault of immigrants or whatever and we just need a strong man to lead us back to the Good Times, and we can easily call those people out as fascists. But also, those men are often found masquerading on the left, either because that's the place in which they were raised or socialized, or they're smart enough to realize that people of real power and wealth in this country at least pay lip service to progressivism. And so you won't hear them say these things, but somehow they will wind up having reasons why white cis men need to be the ones leading movements, or doing the public speaking. They may frame it as "protecting BIPOC people from the risk of incarceration", but they're doing the same thing - creating social and political settings that are led by white men.
And when they replicate these abusive interpersonal power dynamics in their homes, it's not unconnected to their politics, but rather, it is what economists refer to as "revealed preferences" of their politics. Just like watching how someone tips when no one is looking shows what people actually think of their waitstaff, watching how people treat their relationship partners tends to show what they actually believe about how gender dynamics should operate.
And if we look historically, whether people said they were on the left or the right proved to be pretty much immaterial when it came to "did you accept fascism or not", much more predictive was "did you feel entitled and hard done by and were you willing to let other people suffer so that you could rise up?"
Huberman is showing us that he is willing to let other people suffer so that he can enjoy himself: he is at least a useful target for fascism and thus we should not give him any airtime.
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on March 27 [14 favorites]
I think it's actually more complex than that, though.
I think there's a certain subset of white cis men who feel entitled to power and control by virtue of their existence, and they bitterly resent not having it. Often, those men are found on the right openly talking about how times were better when women knew their place and how socialism is the downfall of civilization and everything is the fault of immigrants or whatever and we just need a strong man to lead us back to the Good Times, and we can easily call those people out as fascists. But also, those men are often found masquerading on the left, either because that's the place in which they were raised or socialized, or they're smart enough to realize that people of real power and wealth in this country at least pay lip service to progressivism. And so you won't hear them say these things, but somehow they will wind up having reasons why white cis men need to be the ones leading movements, or doing the public speaking. They may frame it as "protecting BIPOC people from the risk of incarceration", but they're doing the same thing - creating social and political settings that are led by white men.
And when they replicate these abusive interpersonal power dynamics in their homes, it's not unconnected to their politics, but rather, it is what economists refer to as "revealed preferences" of their politics. Just like watching how someone tips when no one is looking shows what people actually think of their waitstaff, watching how people treat their relationship partners tends to show what they actually believe about how gender dynamics should operate.
And if we look historically, whether people said they were on the left or the right proved to be pretty much immaterial when it came to "did you accept fascism or not", much more predictive was "did you feel entitled and hard done by and were you willing to let other people suffer so that you could rise up?"
Huberman is showing us that he is willing to let other people suffer so that he can enjoy himself: he is at least a useful target for fascism and thus we should not give him any airtime.
posted by corb at 9:40 AM on March 27 [14 favorites]
It was also starting to feel like the debate about "fascist - aye or nay" was taking over the conversation, and overshadowing the very real and much more verifiable "misogynist - aye or nay" debate,
yeah, it's not that I can't look at a guy like Huberman and see some scary pre-fascism in his eyes (and his routines), but it's still feels lazy to just go there. And more to the point, not helpful. Because it just gives ammo to his defenders insofar as they can call it out for the hyperbole it is.
Because there seems little to point of zero evidence that the guy has any conscious regard for the politics of thuggery, brutality, might etc that for me defines fascism. Meanwhile, there seems to be plenty that he's a self-absorbed, egotistical, misogynist asshole. Focus on that.
posted by philip-random at 9:43 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
yeah, it's not that I can't look at a guy like Huberman and see some scary pre-fascism in his eyes (and his routines), but it's still feels lazy to just go there. And more to the point, not helpful. Because it just gives ammo to his defenders insofar as they can call it out for the hyperbole it is.
Because there seems little to point of zero evidence that the guy has any conscious regard for the politics of thuggery, brutality, might etc that for me defines fascism. Meanwhile, there seems to be plenty that he's a self-absorbed, egotistical, misogynist asshole. Focus on that.
posted by philip-random at 9:43 AM on March 27 [3 favorites]
I feel like this is more of an indictment of the academic superstar system than anything else.
posted by haptic_avenger at 11:31 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 11:31 AM on March 27 [6 favorites]
I posted the fpp re: Huberman linked to above. At the time, the backlash was just beginning and was more focused on his support of supplements and presenting early stage research as established science than anything squicky about his personal life.
Agreed that the fascist angle, while interesting, is a bit of a derail. It's very possible that Huberman presents in a certain way that shares some aspects with some fascists or perhaps hews to certain aesthetic principles that have been coopted by fascists, or has, on occasion, associated himself with individuals who show fascist tendencies, but I don't think there's any useful info out there to indicate whether he is or is not a fascist. Not a terribly constructive conversation, IMO, unless perhaps you're having it in the context of, I dunno, art history or semiotics or something.
To me the more salient framing is that of the lone genius, the rockstar, the auteur; the (usually) male prodigy with outsize talents who gets a tacit license to do whatever he wants in his private life, to act in ways outside of social norms, and yet remain a member of society in good standing. The person may be acting within legal limits but engages in behaviour that would be considered egregious if engaged in by any mere mortal. An incredibly toxic ideal, one that is embedded into our society, and one that has been taken advantage of by successful individuals (almost always male) from fields as diverse as music (Keith Richards comes to mind) to business (numerous examples) to academia. And I don't think Huberman should get a hall pass for what he's done. In addition to being harmful to the individuals involved, it perpetuates a pattern that is toxic for our society at large.
posted by sid at 12:42 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
Agreed that the fascist angle, while interesting, is a bit of a derail. It's very possible that Huberman presents in a certain way that shares some aspects with some fascists or perhaps hews to certain aesthetic principles that have been coopted by fascists, or has, on occasion, associated himself with individuals who show fascist tendencies, but I don't think there's any useful info out there to indicate whether he is or is not a fascist. Not a terribly constructive conversation, IMO, unless perhaps you're having it in the context of, I dunno, art history or semiotics or something.
To me the more salient framing is that of the lone genius, the rockstar, the auteur; the (usually) male prodigy with outsize talents who gets a tacit license to do whatever he wants in his private life, to act in ways outside of social norms, and yet remain a member of society in good standing. The person may be acting within legal limits but engages in behaviour that would be considered egregious if engaged in by any mere mortal. An incredibly toxic ideal, one that is embedded into our society, and one that has been taken advantage of by successful individuals (almost always male) from fields as diverse as music (Keith Richards comes to mind) to business (numerous examples) to academia. And I don't think Huberman should get a hall pass for what he's done. In addition to being harmful to the individuals involved, it perpetuates a pattern that is toxic for our society at large.
posted by sid at 12:42 PM on March 27 [7 favorites]
What's missing from the NYMag piece that we see in so many other stories like this, and what the NYMag comments hint at, is there's not a lot of "We knew he was toxic, but he made us money and was powerful, so we brushed his behavior under the rug". I wonder why that is. Did those things happen? Did people know he was like this? Where's the coverup? Who is responsible?
I'm reminded of Paolo Macchiarini (in the netflix doc 'bad surgeon'). This guy was a huge star in the medical field but was a complete fraud. Many of his patients died because of his experimental implants. AND he had a secret wife and children and multiple girlfriends. He was a compulsive liar in every field of life, it seems for his whole life. There were many whistleblowers but they got silenced, until they couldn't be.
Is Huberman Ariely and Gino? Is he an academic fraud? Did he abuse people in a professional setting where he had power over them? There seems so much more investigating to do.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:56 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
I'm reminded of Paolo Macchiarini (in the netflix doc 'bad surgeon'). This guy was a huge star in the medical field but was a complete fraud. Many of his patients died because of his experimental implants. AND he had a secret wife and children and multiple girlfriends. He was a compulsive liar in every field of life, it seems for his whole life. There were many whistleblowers but they got silenced, until they couldn't be.
Is Huberman Ariely and Gino? Is he an academic fraud? Did he abuse people in a professional setting where he had power over them? There seems so much more investigating to do.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:56 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
Small unimportant detail from the article: why is one person identified as a "Christian bowhunter"? Is that an official job title these days? Very weird.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:03 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:03 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
That would be Cameron Hanes. As his youtube puts it, "I am a bowhunting athlete, training intensively each and every day to become the Ultimate Predator." Which I'm sure is well-aligned with Christian values. You can find him interviewing Huberman about Huberman's belief in God here. Watch a few seconds and see if your eye keeps being drawn to the Black Rifle Coffee Co. cup, not that I want to reapproach the fascism thing, but. (Watch a few minutes if you want to see Huberman absolutely fail at sounding like a religious human being. Paraphrase: Did you know about God? Did you know there's this book--not a lot of people know this, but there's this book about God, it's the Bible. I've sat down to read it lately. You've heard of this? I'm really interested in how the first half and the last half fit together. Been thinking a lot about that.)
posted by mittens at 1:23 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
posted by mittens at 1:23 PM on March 27 [5 favorites]
Christ, what a collection of assholes.
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:05 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:05 PM on March 27 [6 favorites]
Apparently in the comments section are at least one person who claims to have dated him. Gotta get in there.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 3:12 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 3:12 PM on March 27 [1 favorite]
This is weird. I'd never heard of this guy at all until today, when three separate people mentioned him: a male student who I had thought a little too grounded to have a fitness guru, a female colleague who knows I love to mock douchebags and who told me the basics of this scandal but didn't go any further because I clearly didn't know the context, and a guy on the train who was talking about how the guy was being "metooed to death". And now this. Um, thanks, Universe?
Edit: and of course I parsed "Christian bowhunter" as someone who hunts Christians with a bow, and nodded and thought "good lad".
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:54 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
Edit: and of course I parsed "Christian bowhunter" as someone who hunts Christians with a bow, and nodded and thought "good lad".
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:54 PM on March 27 [9 favorites]
Apologies, with regards to my comment above, I meant mick jagger, not Keith Richards
posted by sid at 7:02 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
posted by sid at 7:02 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
Slate has weighed in, sidestepping the personal stuff, and talking about his science work. It's a better piece, I think.
posted by Cobalt at 8:52 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
posted by Cobalt at 8:52 PM on March 27 [3 favorites]
A quotation from early in the Slate article (emphases mine):
"...listeners to Huberman’s podcast should not sweep aside the contents of the New York mag story as mere gossip. As a biomedical scientist who has spent a lot of time considering what Huberman has to say, I can tell you that he is leading his podcast audience astray, too."
This seem like a rhetorical way to avoid sidestepping the "personal stuff," to me.
posted by Earthtopus at 8:59 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
"...listeners to Huberman’s podcast should not sweep aside the contents of the New York mag story as mere gossip. As a biomedical scientist who has spent a lot of time considering what Huberman has to say, I can tell you that he is leading his podcast audience astray, too."
This seem like a rhetorical way to avoid sidestepping the "personal stuff," to me.
posted by Earthtopus at 8:59 PM on March 27 [2 favorites]
I'll probably out myself as a kook in this comment, but I didn't particularly like the Slate piece. The author suggests "Huberman could be improving health outcomes, science literacy, and critical thinking," but...well, there simply isn't enough health information to do that in the way he envisions. Like, forget ashwagandha, we're not even sure if you should supplement with vitamin D or not. Baby aspirin? Recent recommendations are that you both take--and do not take--one. Even fluoride isn't settled science--it's good for teeth, but is it bad for baby brains? The Slate piece gives the impression there are no real questions there, but research continues. (I mean actual research--not just, y'know, "it's made from nuclear waste" or whatever Bircher-derived point the Weston Price people are making about it these days.)
(BUT! Also! I KNEW there'd be some antivax stuff there, I knew it!)
I do think we need a better way of separating out "This is Medical Science!" from "This is biohacking at your own risk." I think that second one is perfectly valid--people ought to be able to try things to make themselves feel better, even if they can't justify it with reams of peer-reviewed literature. And yes, there's a supplement industry who makes billions of dollars agreeing with that point, but that doesn't invalidate the point. But I do think there's a sin in pretending that the hacking is science, rather than, like, science-adjacent, or science-inspired. But that's mostly because science kinda sucks at actually telling us what to do with our lives and bodies. (vide the earlier comments about Huberman's earthshaking suggestions to get enough sleep, some exercise, maybe a little coffee.)
Anyway. I understand that this tack will be very persuasive to people who like being right about the science, and I guess that's fine. And obviously the flu shot stuff is not even in the biohacking realm, it's rubbing elbows with the COVID deniers, and deserves all the raised eyebrows and throat-clearing. And I'm extremely interested in the Christian connection here, because there's a Christian wellness movement that spans from, y'know, eat less processed food, all the way up to worries about being chipped with the mark of the beast. We live in a weird world.
But honestly, the moral case about his abuse was strong enough to consign him to the dustbin of history! Even if his science had been perfectly sound!
posted by mittens at 5:13 AM on March 28 [9 favorites]
(BUT! Also! I KNEW there'd be some antivax stuff there, I knew it!)
I do think we need a better way of separating out "This is Medical Science!" from "This is biohacking at your own risk." I think that second one is perfectly valid--people ought to be able to try things to make themselves feel better, even if they can't justify it with reams of peer-reviewed literature. And yes, there's a supplement industry who makes billions of dollars agreeing with that point, but that doesn't invalidate the point. But I do think there's a sin in pretending that the hacking is science, rather than, like, science-adjacent, or science-inspired. But that's mostly because science kinda sucks at actually telling us what to do with our lives and bodies. (vide the earlier comments about Huberman's earthshaking suggestions to get enough sleep, some exercise, maybe a little coffee.)
Anyway. I understand that this tack will be very persuasive to people who like being right about the science, and I guess that's fine. And obviously the flu shot stuff is not even in the biohacking realm, it's rubbing elbows with the COVID deniers, and deserves all the raised eyebrows and throat-clearing. And I'm extremely interested in the Christian connection here, because there's a Christian wellness movement that spans from, y'know, eat less processed food, all the way up to worries about being chipped with the mark of the beast. We live in a weird world.
But honestly, the moral case about his abuse was strong enough to consign him to the dustbin of history! Even if his science had been perfectly sound!
posted by mittens at 5:13 AM on March 28 [9 favorites]
I feel like this is more of an indictment of the academic superstar system than anything else.
and
To me the more salient framing is that of the lone genius, the rockstar, the auteur; the (usually) male prodigy with outsize talents who gets a tacit license to do whatever he wants in his private life, to act in ways outside of social norms, and yet remain a member of society in good standing.
are both tied in with the fact that we live in an imperialist white supremacist hetero-patriarchy (to quote bell hooks). Huberman’s treatment of women is not so much an aberration enabled by his otherwise unrelated success, but is tied in with who tends to be able to achieve that degree of success within such a system - arguably his success is in part due to his ability to exploit and mistreat others (which is not unrelated to pushing supplements or playing a little loose with the science he discusses). And there is a smooth pipeline from there to the far right in part because they are two points on the same continuum, not fundamentally distinct worldviews or systems.
(Yeah yeah, that’s not to say that the two points are identical, the same point, or don’t have important differences between them that impact the rest of us in important ways. That I have to put in a caveat like this to avoid ontological collapse being misread into my comment is a bit annoying and distracts from the main point, but that seems to be relevant to this discussion thread.)
posted by eviemath at 6:38 AM on March 28 [12 favorites]
and
To me the more salient framing is that of the lone genius, the rockstar, the auteur; the (usually) male prodigy with outsize talents who gets a tacit license to do whatever he wants in his private life, to act in ways outside of social norms, and yet remain a member of society in good standing.
are both tied in with the fact that we live in an imperialist white supremacist hetero-patriarchy (to quote bell hooks). Huberman’s treatment of women is not so much an aberration enabled by his otherwise unrelated success, but is tied in with who tends to be able to achieve that degree of success within such a system - arguably his success is in part due to his ability to exploit and mistreat others (which is not unrelated to pushing supplements or playing a little loose with the science he discusses). And there is a smooth pipeline from there to the far right in part because they are two points on the same continuum, not fundamentally distinct worldviews or systems.
(Yeah yeah, that’s not to say that the two points are identical, the same point, or don’t have important differences between them that impact the rest of us in important ways. That I have to put in a caveat like this to avoid ontological collapse being misread into my comment is a bit annoying and distracts from the main point, but that seems to be relevant to this discussion thread.)
posted by eviemath at 6:38 AM on March 28 [12 favorites]
are both tied in with the fact that we live in an imperialist white supremacist hetero-patriarchy
I mean, maybe. I don't think so though, I would guess this type of behaviour is found in many societies with various underlying power structures (though probably all would be partiarchal). Also, I would guess that this type of behaviour is exhibited by folks of many political persuasions, I mean I believe Foucault and Simone de Beauvoir did some pretty horrible things in their personal lives, and I believe both were strong leftists.
More importantly, I don't see the point of bringing up this aspect? To what end? IMO it doesn't help advance the primary objective here, which (again IMO) is to reduce this type of behaviour through strong disincentives such as social censure.
posted by sid at 12:40 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
I mean, maybe. I don't think so though, I would guess this type of behaviour is found in many societies with various underlying power structures (though probably all would be partiarchal). Also, I would guess that this type of behaviour is exhibited by folks of many political persuasions, I mean I believe Foucault and Simone de Beauvoir did some pretty horrible things in their personal lives, and I believe both were strong leftists.
More importantly, I don't see the point of bringing up this aspect? To what end? IMO it doesn't help advance the primary objective here, which (again IMO) is to reduce this type of behaviour through strong disincentives such as social censure.
posted by sid at 12:40 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
Taylor Lorenz breaks down the latest tech news including Truth Social going public, New York Magazine's much-discussed Andrew Huberman expose, Spotify’s latest podcast metrics, and the poverty porn drama on YouTube.
She also copied this post (though I can't verify this information): "Andrew Huberman hired a very expensive crisis PR team named Scale Strategy to manage the fallout of the New York Magazine piece. They are busily seeding information to conservative media outlets and aim to spin the story to discredit the women."
I guess we'll see what conservative media does in the coming weeks if this is true or not.
posted by AlSweigart at 2:34 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
She also copied this post (though I can't verify this information): "Andrew Huberman hired a very expensive crisis PR team named Scale Strategy to manage the fallout of the New York Magazine piece. They are busily seeding information to conservative media outlets and aim to spin the story to discredit the women."
I guess we'll see what conservative media does in the coming weeks if this is true or not.
posted by AlSweigart at 2:34 PM on March 28 [3 favorites]
All you blue-coast lib'ruls, playing all coy and twirling your mindful mocktails like you never even HEARD of https://www.christianbowhunters.org/
As the deer pants for water... say, is that a buck?
posted by Rat Spatula at 2:57 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
As the deer pants for water... say, is that a buck?
posted by Rat Spatula at 2:57 PM on March 28 [1 favorite]
That he fucked around and relationshipped bunches of women at the same time as *jabbing IVF drugs into Sarah’s gut on a hiking trip* just boy, that is all I need to know about whether his ‘private’ life should be of interest to the public.
That is cruelty - at best mental cruelty, at worst incurring physical risks that those drugs can cause women during their fertility journey. Apparently he publicly poses as a ‘scientist’ who cares about menopause and women’s health. Surely that detail throws that into sharp relief. Right?
AND then to get your spokesperson to elide that cruelty and psychic violence with an incredible quote of ‘creating embryos together’ from him is using ‘spokespersonning’ to inflict further violence. I feel the people trying to dismantle Frowner’s general comments about what kind of guy we might be dealing with possibly didn’t read that bit - where he puts out into the world as a *correction* that he was Brave New Worlding some embryos, or that other bit where he tells Eve that they would make good babies based on her particular swimming technique. Sure, not a sex trafficker, but the point of the story is to develop the theme that this guy is flake, a phony, a serial liar annd game player, a rage machine, and a straightforward misogynist. Achieved. What a giant C.
posted by honey-barbara at 1:01 AM on March 29 [12 favorites]
That is cruelty - at best mental cruelty, at worst incurring physical risks that those drugs can cause women during their fertility journey. Apparently he publicly poses as a ‘scientist’ who cares about menopause and women’s health. Surely that detail throws that into sharp relief. Right?
AND then to get your spokesperson to elide that cruelty and psychic violence with an incredible quote of ‘creating embryos together’ from him is using ‘spokespersonning’ to inflict further violence. I feel the people trying to dismantle Frowner’s general comments about what kind of guy we might be dealing with possibly didn’t read that bit - where he puts out into the world as a *correction* that he was Brave New Worlding some embryos, or that other bit where he tells Eve that they would make good babies based on her particular swimming technique. Sure, not a sex trafficker, but the point of the story is to develop the theme that this guy is flake, a phony, a serial liar annd game player, a rage machine, and a straightforward misogynist. Achieved. What a giant C.
posted by honey-barbara at 1:01 AM on March 29 [12 favorites]
but he told me to put my phone down and get outside every once in a while so he cant be all bad
posted by logicpunk at 4:56 AM on March 29 [6 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 4:56 AM on March 29 [6 favorites]
The Slate article linked by Cobalt is far more devastating than the New York magazine piece:
posted by jamjam at 7:45 AM on March 29 [6 favorites]
From basic Immunology 101 to how vaccines work, virology, and the public health impact of influenza, that episode was littered with falsehoods. He even—in that same episode—botched the relationship between exercise, cortisol, and immune function, and said antibodies are produced by stem cells in bone marrow. They are actually produced by B cells in our lymphoid organs, a fact which is fundamental to immunology. (He publicly replied in an Instagram comment that he consulted three MDs for the podcast episode, which is not actually that relevant; doctors know a lot—but they’re not inherently experts in immunology.)Huberman doesn't know basic biology, doesn’t really grasp what he does know, and can only regurgitate half digested stuff he’s read or heard somewhere else with a very limited and completely insufficient understanding of cause and effect.
posted by jamjam at 7:45 AM on March 29 [6 favorites]
“Why not critique THE SCIENCE, instead of exposing his sociopathic abuse???”
Guys, the biohacking shit is self-evident nonsense. Do you believe that Iron Man is real, also? Get a life.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:40 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
Guys, the biohacking shit is self-evident nonsense. Do you believe that Iron Man is real, also? Get a life.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:40 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
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posted by constraint at 3:09 AM on March 26 [5 favorites]