We Need To Talk About Trader Joe's
April 5, 2024 8:34 AM Subscribe
"According to these sources, Trader Joe’s commonly solicits product samples and even asks for potential recipe adjustments—a revealing and time-consuming exercise for bootstrapped founders—before inexplicably abandoning the negotiations and releasing its own private-label versions of similar products at lower prices." How Trader Joe's engages in shady tactics to copy products from independent, minority-owned brands.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Paul Simon of grocery stores.
posted by rikschell at 8:41 AM on April 5 [34 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:41 AM on April 5 [34 favorites]
It’s very depressing. I have 3 groceries I can shop at. Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, and a branch of a more local chain with its own history of bad practices. Pretty much, wherever I buy food, I get to feel bad about it. And none of them is that much cheaper/better/has what I want than the others….
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:45 AM on April 5 [18 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:45 AM on April 5 [18 favorites]
well, crap. I had joked in the past that I could live anywhere within easy driving distance of a TJs.
Guess I'll have to learn to make the stuff I like buying from them...
posted by torokunai at 8:47 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Guess I'll have to learn to make the stuff I like buying from them...
posted by torokunai at 8:47 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Brooklyn Delhi has products sold at WalMart, so cry me a river.
posted by Ideefixe at 8:52 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
posted by Ideefixe at 8:52 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
Ever since they put in a TJ's, I've worked hard to avoid going there. Because their snacks are TOO GOOD. If I have snacks in the house, I'm just going to eat them. And the better they are, the faster I'll eat them and want more. So I go to Aldi (and I mostly avoid buying their snacks, because mostly they taste as cheap as they are).
posted by rikschell at 8:53 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 8:53 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
We used to use TJs for our main shopping stop, and we’d get fill in (and produce + meat, because TJs is not good in those departments) items from Kroger plus whatever worked well for us from Costco. We had shopped heavily at TJs since we got our first place in 1995. Once they joined in on the SpaceX lawsuit we haven’t been back. And in all honesty, we haven’t really missed them as much as we thought we would.
posted by azpenguin at 8:53 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 8:53 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
What Ideefixe says about Brooklyn Delhi I also say about Fly By Jing. Their product is better than TJ's but not any better than chili crisp I can get at the friendly neighborhood Ranch 99. Fly By Jing also spams the hell out of you if you're fool enough to buy from them online.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:54 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:54 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
But yeah, the NLRB suit is some bullshit.
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:55 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
posted by The Ardship of Cambry at 8:55 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
But are the stores still good to work at?
So many stores have miserable employees. The ones at Trader Joe's still seem like they are enjoying the work that they do and I do appreciate that.
posted by amanda at 9:09 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
So many stores have miserable employees. The ones at Trader Joe's still seem like they are enjoying the work that they do and I do appreciate that.
posted by amanda at 9:09 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
TJ's can easily just buy these products directly to copy them, so I'm a little confused on why they go through the rigamarole of pretending to do a black label partnership? Unless they are getting the actual ingredient list.
This paragraph is weird:
The ethnic food aisle is not the only victim of Trader Joe’s product duping; its stores are filled with private-label spins on many mainstream corporate snack foods, too. Ritz Crackers are rebranded as Golden Rounds, Oreos are called Joe-Joe’s, and Pringles are repackaged as Sea-Salted Saddle Potato Crisps. In fact, many large corporations like Pepsi and Conagra are suspected of cooperating with Trader Joe’s to manufacture cheaper versions of their own products for private labeling.
So on the one hand, TJ-brand Pringles are "duping" but also the companies who make them are cooperating? What, exactly, is the misdirection here? Who cares if Golden Rounds are actually Ritz? They're cheaper, which is the point.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:10 AM on April 5 [14 favorites]
This paragraph is weird:
The ethnic food aisle is not the only victim of Trader Joe’s product duping; its stores are filled with private-label spins on many mainstream corporate snack foods, too. Ritz Crackers are rebranded as Golden Rounds, Oreos are called Joe-Joe’s, and Pringles are repackaged as Sea-Salted Saddle Potato Crisps. In fact, many large corporations like Pepsi and Conagra are suspected of cooperating with Trader Joe’s to manufacture cheaper versions of their own products for private labeling.
So on the one hand, TJ-brand Pringles are "duping" but also the companies who make them are cooperating? What, exactly, is the misdirection here? Who cares if Golden Rounds are actually Ritz? They're cheaper, which is the point.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:10 AM on April 5 [14 favorites]
Trader Joe's used to carry these gigantic green Chaldiki olives that were absolutely amazing—quite possibly the best snacking olives I've ever found—and then one day, poof, they disappeared, and my life has been slightly worse ever since.
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:11 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:11 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
TJ's can easily just buy these products directly to copy them, so I'm a little confused on why they go through the rigamarole of pretending to do a black label partnership? Unless they are getting the actual ingredient list.
I think that's probably the key -- the articles talks about recipe modifications, which suggests that in addition to samples, they are getting actual recipes as part of the process of discovery. Maybe also sourcing information for specialty ingredients.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:14 AM on April 5 [8 favorites]
I think that's probably the key -- the articles talks about recipe modifications, which suggests that in addition to samples, they are getting actual recipes as part of the process of discovery. Maybe also sourcing information for specialty ingredients.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:14 AM on April 5 [8 favorites]
Shrinkflation has also struck TJ's, with bottled sparking water repackaged at 20% less volume for the same price.
posted by TDIpod at 9:15 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by TDIpod at 9:15 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
But are the stores still good to work at?
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
posted by twelve cent archie at 9:16 AM on April 5 [35 favorites]
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
posted by twelve cent archie at 9:16 AM on April 5 [35 favorites]
I live in Ontario where the nearest TJ's to me is in Buffalo or probably Rochester, I dunno, and I have been a TJ's stan since they came to Atlanta years ago. I am sad about this but it'll be easy for me to not shop there because how could I anyway? (TJ's is not worth a border crossing, honestly.)
posted by Kitteh at 9:21 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 9:21 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Also in Canuckistan, and I really enjoy doing the cross-border run to TJs in Buffalo.
I'm not happy about these revelations, but... at lease TJs isn't owned by Galen Weston? Maybe they still come out ahead?
(This is what I'm telling myself. I need my Meyer Lemon Cookie Thins.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:24 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
I'm not happy about these revelations, but... at lease TJs isn't owned by Galen Weston? Maybe they still come out ahead?
(This is what I'm telling myself. I need my Meyer Lemon Cookie Thins.)
posted by Capt. Renault at 9:24 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
FYI, TJ's has been owned by the same German company that founded ALDI since 1979.
I highly recommend the book The Secret Life of Groceries: The Dark Miracle of the American Supermarket. There is a long chapter about the founding of Trader Joe's and helps to explain a lot of why it is the way it is.
posted by gwint at 9:30 AM on April 5 [20 favorites]
I highly recommend the book The Secret Life of Groceries: The Dark Miracle of the American Supermarket. There is a long chapter about the founding of Trader Joe's and helps to explain a lot of why it is the way it is.
posted by gwint at 9:30 AM on April 5 [20 favorites]
>TJ's has been owned by the same German company that founded ALDI since 1979.
I thought there was a 'Brothers War' over that?
posted by torokunai at 9:34 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
I thought there was a 'Brothers War' over that?
posted by torokunai at 9:34 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Aldi Nord (which owns TJ) and Aldi Sud (which owns ALDI) are distinct entities and share nothing beyond the word "Aldi" in their names.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:43 AM on April 5 [19 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:43 AM on April 5 [19 favorites]
But are the stores still good to work at?
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
I'd be curious. Several years back, I worked part-time at a local Kroger, a union shop. Across the street was a TJs. They managed to poach employees on a steady basis. The pay was comparable. I guess the people who left Kroger for TJs just liked it better.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:45 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
I'd be curious. Several years back, I worked part-time at a local Kroger, a union shop. Across the street was a TJs. They managed to poach employees on a steady basis. The pay was comparable. I guess the people who left Kroger for TJs just liked it better.
posted by 2N2222 at 9:45 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Whether it's a pleasant experience to work at Trader Joe's now, it won't be if they win the lawsuit they are participating in. If they kill the NLRB, all bets are off.
In a twist of circumstance, I was eating a TJ's frozen Indian meal when I read the article linked above. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Anyway, the fact that some of these small brands sell at Walmart doesn't negate the fact that TJs misled them for the purposes of stealing their recipes and then putting out a faked-up version of their product. Is it legal? Sure. Is it ethical, not really. The small brands would have been completely happy to sell through TJs but TJ wanted to get the product cheaper -- and thereby undercut the original brand's profit.
posted by suelac at 10:01 AM on April 5 [16 favorites]
In a twist of circumstance, I was eating a TJ's frozen Indian meal when I read the article linked above. There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Anyway, the fact that some of these small brands sell at Walmart doesn't negate the fact that TJs misled them for the purposes of stealing their recipes and then putting out a faked-up version of their product. Is it legal? Sure. Is it ethical, not really. The small brands would have been completely happy to sell through TJs but TJ wanted to get the product cheaper -- and thereby undercut the original brand's profit.
posted by suelac at 10:01 AM on April 5 [16 favorites]
But are the stores still good to work at?
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
The first half of my working life was working in various grocery stores, from mom and pop produce shops, to fancy grocery stores, and your middle of the road 'normal' supermarket.
They're never good jobs. They take the harder parts of warehouse work (heavy lifting, slippery floors, hot/cold environments and mix it with dealing with all of the public (cause everyone has to eat), including all the assholes. There is no such thing as a good grocery job. Even if the pay and health care is decent, it is not enough to pull these jobs into a good category.
Be kind, advocate for change where you can, and don't ask to speak to a manager. Ever.
Or join a (legitimate) grocery cooperative, and do some of this work.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Basically this.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:07 AM on April 5 [26 favorites]
No. Labor conditions for people who work for union-busters are by definition not good.
The first half of my working life was working in various grocery stores, from mom and pop produce shops, to fancy grocery stores, and your middle of the road 'normal' supermarket.
They're never good jobs. They take the harder parts of warehouse work (heavy lifting, slippery floors, hot/cold environments and mix it with dealing with all of the public (cause everyone has to eat), including all the assholes. There is no such thing as a good grocery job. Even if the pay and health care is decent, it is not enough to pull these jobs into a good category.
Be kind, advocate for change where you can, and don't ask to speak to a manager. Ever.
Or join a (legitimate) grocery cooperative, and do some of this work.
There is no ethical consumption under capitalism.
Basically this.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:07 AM on April 5 [26 favorites]
I read the article. There's no indication that TJ's is ripping off these companies as the article literally says that no proprietary recipe is being used by TJ's, and even Aachar (which I'm unfamiliar with) isn't unique to the company interviewed. The impression I got was that TJ talks to several vendors to get bids on manufacturing their in-house brand of product, and goes with the one that they find most suitable (cost? scale? it's unclear).
I'm not personally a fan of how this MF post turns this article (which doesn't even seem to raise the point) to one of "Trader Joe's engages in shady tactics to copy products from independent, minority-owned brands."
Disclaimer: I love TJs, so I realize that my opinion is biased, but I have no other affiliation with the company.
posted by milnak at 10:12 AM on April 5 [7 favorites]
I'm not personally a fan of how this MF post turns this article (which doesn't even seem to raise the point) to one of "Trader Joe's engages in shady tactics to copy products from independent, minority-owned brands."
Disclaimer: I love TJs, so I realize that my opinion is biased, but I have no other affiliation with the company.
posted by milnak at 10:12 AM on April 5 [7 favorites]
because mostly they taste as cheap as they are
I subscribe to your Buy Shitty Snacks to Mitigate Rate of Consumption strategy
not exactly a refined palate and heavily lean to savoury/salty, but the difference between a small bowl and pounding an entire family-sized bag of Doritos Sweet Chili Heat in under 25 min is a small victory I'll take
posted by elkevelvet at 10:16 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
I subscribe to your Buy Shitty Snacks to Mitigate Rate of Consumption strategy
not exactly a refined palate and heavily lean to savoury/salty, but the difference between a small bowl and pounding an entire family-sized bag of Doritos Sweet Chili Heat in under 25 min is a small victory I'll take
posted by elkevelvet at 10:16 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
The impression I got was that TJ talks to several vendors to get bids on manufacturing their in-house brand of product, and goes with the one that they find most suitable (cost? scale? it's unclear).
It is more that TJ talks to vendors about how they can use TJ's preferred manufacturer to make an in-house version of their interesting, special, ethnically significant product, for which they would get paid a tiny pittance as a 'finder's fee' for having developed the recipes and a market for the products in the first place and if they refuse to play along with that -- and sometimes even if they haven't yet refused -- TJ's takes the information they learned during the discovery process and just pays the preferred manufacturer to make the product without so much as paying the finder's fee.
It might not be illegal but it is absolutely shady as all get out.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:16 AM on April 5 [19 favorites]
It is more that TJ talks to vendors about how they can use TJ's preferred manufacturer to make an in-house version of their interesting, special, ethnically significant product, for which they would get paid a tiny pittance as a 'finder's fee' for having developed the recipes and a market for the products in the first place and if they refuse to play along with that -- and sometimes even if they haven't yet refused -- TJ's takes the information they learned during the discovery process and just pays the preferred manufacturer to make the product without so much as paying the finder's fee.
It might not be illegal but it is absolutely shady as all get out.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:16 AM on April 5 [19 favorites]
I should also say that I too do shop at TJ's because it historically has paid its workers better and within that industry have been kind of coveted jobs. More directly to the contents of the article; I first had TJ's garlic achar because we don't have good Indian grocers in the hood. I really enjoyed it! They discontinued it! And jokes on them I guess because I stumbled on Brooklyn Delhi's garlic achar as a 'replacement' not knowing it was the OG product (or the intended target of the knock off). So congrats Brooklyn Delhi on playing the long game.
Buying shit is weird guys.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:17 AM on April 5 [10 favorites]
Buying shit is weird guys.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:17 AM on April 5 [10 favorites]
Thank you for confirming my suspicions, furnace.heart. Did you ever have the chance to work for a store with a union?
posted by Selena777 at 10:18 AM on April 5
posted by Selena777 at 10:18 AM on April 5
I've been squinting hard at TJ's since the NLRB suit (though the union has not called for a boycott at this time), but I'm not sure about the claims here.
I can get "samples" of Brooklyn Delhi by buying them off the shelves. You can't copyright a recipe, and particularly not a "reverse-engineered" one.
If the labels are truly confusingly similar, there's a legal remedy for that. It's called the Lanham Act. But...let's just say that companies are prone to motivated perceptions of whether the labels are confusingly similar in a meaningful sense (e.g., yeah, your tikka masala sauce will probably have red in the label, it's a tomato product).
If you're trialing a different recipe for them, then clearly they don't have the recipe, or they could do it themselves.
So it looks more like the all-too-common scenario of a big retailer that does private label exploring a relationship with a smaller retailer that maybe doesn't protect itself adequately in the contract concerning the costs of development and then deciding to do it themselves. (As I'm sure most people reading this know, most TJ's stuff is private label, and I find the author's objection to the very concept to undermine their credibility a bit. If you object to TJ's making round yellow crackers because another big company does, too, you maybe haven't thought through all the policy implications here.)
It may be, though, that the problem here is that I'm reading this as a lawyer and the article really isn't written for that audience, so facts I'd find important didn't make the final edit.
posted by praemunire at 10:19 AM on April 5 [17 favorites]
I can get "samples" of Brooklyn Delhi by buying them off the shelves. You can't copyright a recipe, and particularly not a "reverse-engineered" one.
If the labels are truly confusingly similar, there's a legal remedy for that. It's called the Lanham Act. But...let's just say that companies are prone to motivated perceptions of whether the labels are confusingly similar in a meaningful sense (e.g., yeah, your tikka masala sauce will probably have red in the label, it's a tomato product).
If you're trialing a different recipe for them, then clearly they don't have the recipe, or they could do it themselves.
So it looks more like the all-too-common scenario of a big retailer that does private label exploring a relationship with a smaller retailer that maybe doesn't protect itself adequately in the contract concerning the costs of development and then deciding to do it themselves. (As I'm sure most people reading this know, most TJ's stuff is private label, and I find the author's objection to the very concept to undermine their credibility a bit. If you object to TJ's making round yellow crackers because another big company does, too, you maybe haven't thought through all the policy implications here.)
It may be, though, that the problem here is that I'm reading this as a lawyer and the article really isn't written for that audience, so facts I'd find important didn't make the final edit.
posted by praemunire at 10:19 AM on April 5 [17 favorites]
I was roommates with a guy taking Food & Nutrition and one of his jobs was working in a food lab replicating flavours and compositions in order to release President's Choice versions of leading brands, this was over 20 years ago
posted by elkevelvet at 10:20 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 10:20 AM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Paul Simon of grocery stores.
I used to think so, but the recent 2-part documentary on Simon changed my mind.
This "Meet the Composer" episode also defends Simon as someone genuinely interested in exploring other music, and not simply to appropriate it for gain. It really does seem to benefit all involved.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:29 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
I used to think so, but the recent 2-part documentary on Simon changed my mind.
This "Meet the Composer" episode also defends Simon as someone genuinely interested in exploring other music, and not simply to appropriate it for gain. It really does seem to benefit all involved.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:29 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
I briefly worked at a place that was partially union (part time workers were not union eligible at the time). The unions in grocery stores are on the weaker end of the spectrum. Some freight departments are better represented, but its pretty fragmentary. Even a "unionized grocery store" might employ nonunion workers.
The best job I had was working for a vehemently anti-union, fancy grocery store that charged so much we could actually get decent pay and honestly good health care...but like I personally know multiple people who lost their jobs just for whispering the word 'union' so, 'best' is clearly contextual.
I'm in a union now, (white collar, local government work) and hot shit is it a billion times better even working a shitty job in a union than not!
If you have a boss, you need a union.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:31 AM on April 5 [21 favorites]
The best job I had was working for a vehemently anti-union, fancy grocery store that charged so much we could actually get decent pay and honestly good health care...but like I personally know multiple people who lost their jobs just for whispering the word 'union' so, 'best' is clearly contextual.
I'm in a union now, (white collar, local government work) and hot shit is it a billion times better even working a shitty job in a union than not!
If you have a boss, you need a union.
posted by furnace.heart at 10:31 AM on April 5 [21 favorites]
Goddamn I am easily swayed by Metafilter opinions. Turns out you're all just a bunch of regular people like me. Some too smart for their own good, but overall regular and mostly pretty nice people! I was totally onboard and posted this whole thing to FB. Now I think I may be swayed by the dissenting opinions as well - but only because it's my favorite grocery story? Goddammit.
The union busting thing though. Joining ANYTHING with the SpaceX name on it but this specifically shitty thing. I await being swayed by additional opinions.
Anecdata I was an assistant manager at TJ's for about a year in Bascom, CA, 20+ yrs ago. Mandatory overtime but good pay, nice people. It was a rule when new items came in we should try them! It felt like a good place to work. This is all very sad and stupid and terrible. Or capitalism working as intended. Or a bit of both.
posted by Glinn at 10:35 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
The union busting thing though. Joining ANYTHING with the SpaceX name on it but this specifically shitty thing. I await being swayed by additional opinions.
Anecdata I was an assistant manager at TJ's for about a year in Bascom, CA, 20+ yrs ago. Mandatory overtime but good pay, nice people. It was a rule when new items came in we should try them! It felt like a good place to work. This is all very sad and stupid and terrible. Or capitalism working as intended. Or a bit of both.
posted by Glinn at 10:35 AM on April 5 [6 favorites]
This "Meet the Composer" episode also defends Simon as someone genuinely interested in exploring other music, and not simply to appropriate it for gain. It really does seem to benefit all involved.
The late anti-Graceland backlash seems to have been primarily driven by tumblrinas who absorbed three facts somewhere, jammed them into an already rickety (though important) paradigm, and generated a silly conclusion.
posted by praemunire at 10:37 AM on April 5 [14 favorites]
The late anti-Graceland backlash seems to have been primarily driven by tumblrinas who absorbed three facts somewhere, jammed them into an already rickety (though important) paradigm, and generated a silly conclusion.
posted by praemunire at 10:37 AM on April 5 [14 favorites]
TJs used to have a very nice vegetarian chili, and then one day it was nowhere to be found.
This was maybe 6 years ago. At the same time, I learned that they would white-label existing brand products, the reasoning being (as I recall) that it offered another outlet to manufacturers, where they could sell their available stock at a lower price without people thinking, oh, I can get Name Brand Thing cheaper at TJs. It seemed like a both-sides-win marketing-ploy arrangement.
There was a site that listed the actual source of these white-labeled products, and I learned the chili I liked was from Amy's, so I just bought that.
Years later I got better at home cooking and now just make my own veggie chili.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:39 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
This was maybe 6 years ago. At the same time, I learned that they would white-label existing brand products, the reasoning being (as I recall) that it offered another outlet to manufacturers, where they could sell their available stock at a lower price without people thinking, oh, I can get Name Brand Thing cheaper at TJs. It seemed like a both-sides-win marketing-ploy arrangement.
There was a site that listed the actual source of these white-labeled products, and I learned the chili I liked was from Amy's, so I just bought that.
Years later I got better at home cooking and now just make my own veggie chili.
posted by Ayn Marx at 10:39 AM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I used to work in the test kitchen of a major private-label manufacturer, and everything in this article is completely normal (n.b. I’m not saying it’s good) for the industry. Additionally, without a lot more transparent data, the focus on “ethnic” food seems to be nothing more than cherry picking to support a preconceived conclusion. TJ’s has been dead to me since they discontinued the lumpy bumpy bar, but this article is pretty much uninformed griping so far as I can see.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 10:39 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 10:39 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
> The late anti-Graceland backlash seems to have been primarily driven by tumblrinas who absorbed three facts somewhere, jammed them into an already rickety (though important) paradigm, and generated a silly conclusion.
This literally defines social media engagement in a nutshell, except that it's typically based on one clickbait headline, not three facts.
posted by milnak at 10:57 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
This literally defines social media engagement in a nutshell, except that it's typically based on one clickbait headline, not three facts.
posted by milnak at 10:57 AM on April 5 [9 favorites]
I felt a giant invisible wall of notright-ness about ten feet inside the first Trader Joe's I ever visited, which happened to be a storefront or two away from a chain used bookstore I frequented.
It was like it lived up too well to its name, and the products had sort of a plundered overtone, or were gathered from a shore after a shipwreck — perhaps more that they all seemed like overseas production line overruns that you’d never see again after current stock was exhausted.
But, I'm really fascinated by food in all of its manifold aspects, and I must have spent an hour and a half looking at every single item in that tiny store.
This must have been back in about the mid 80s, and I remember thinking that it was an exploitative epiphenomenon of an overvalued US dollar, and would fade away as the dollar lost that unearned premium. So much for that prognostication.
posted by jamjam at 11:09 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
It was like it lived up too well to its name, and the products had sort of a plundered overtone, or were gathered from a shore after a shipwreck — perhaps more that they all seemed like overseas production line overruns that you’d never see again after current stock was exhausted.
But, I'm really fascinated by food in all of its manifold aspects, and I must have spent an hour and a half looking at every single item in that tiny store.
This must have been back in about the mid 80s, and I remember thinking that it was an exploitative epiphenomenon of an overvalued US dollar, and would fade away as the dollar lost that unearned premium. So much for that prognostication.
posted by jamjam at 11:09 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
But the unnamed New York–based founder I spoke to believes that Trader Joe’s hides behind price to sandbag negotiations with small brands. Less than six months after it approached his company about private labeling, Trader Joe’s released not one but two jarred condiments similar to his. He had sent them multiple samples of both. “They give you a price point that they know you can’t meet, so you gracefully bow out. That gives them the legitimate green light to knock you off,” he said. “And then a couple of months later, they launch the same products.”
I mean, the lesson here would seem to be for small brands to always ask upfront for potential pricing/financial details before sending out samples or any recipes.
But yeah, this story seems less to be about TJs and more about how to have a profitable business is never based on who has the best product, but a mix of product quality, branding, distribution, price point, etc. If you make a good food product but you can't produce it at scale so you can make the price affordable for the average consumer, some big brand is likely to do it for you. Not saying that's good or anything, and yeah, it would be nice if a big brand existed that did this in a way that engaged in more equitable profit sharing. But a lot of people can't afford to spend $10+ on a small jar of sauce, or they just prefer the convenience of a one-stop shop.
Anyway, my partner worked at Whole Foods for a couple years recently and when he was researching local grocery jobs it was clear that TJs was the coveted employer in the industry - r/WholeFoods being full of people sharing how they'd left for TJs and were so much happier there. He tried, but they are competitive jobs to get. The anti-union stuff sucks, but there aren't great alternatives in the industry, unfortunately.
posted by coffeecat at 11:11 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
I mean, the lesson here would seem to be for small brands to always ask upfront for potential pricing/financial details before sending out samples or any recipes.
But yeah, this story seems less to be about TJs and more about how to have a profitable business is never based on who has the best product, but a mix of product quality, branding, distribution, price point, etc. If you make a good food product but you can't produce it at scale so you can make the price affordable for the average consumer, some big brand is likely to do it for you. Not saying that's good or anything, and yeah, it would be nice if a big brand existed that did this in a way that engaged in more equitable profit sharing. But a lot of people can't afford to spend $10+ on a small jar of sauce, or they just prefer the convenience of a one-stop shop.
Anyway, my partner worked at Whole Foods for a couple years recently and when he was researching local grocery jobs it was clear that TJs was the coveted employer in the industry - r/WholeFoods being full of people sharing how they'd left for TJs and were so much happier there. He tried, but they are competitive jobs to get. The anti-union stuff sucks, but there aren't great alternatives in the industry, unfortunately.
posted by coffeecat at 11:11 AM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Aldi Nord (which owns TJ) and Aldi Sud (which owns ALDI) are distinct entities and share nothing beyond the word "Aldi" in their names.
A handful of years ago the two companies began working together to standardize private label products. The rumors have been swirling around about a merger since then. Everyone denies it, but it wouldn't be a major surprise.
Just an interesting aside, ALDI Nord now sells some stuff in Europe under the "Trader Joe's" label
And I think it's pretty funny that the jarred Trader Joe's Hot Dogs with the American flag all over it have to reassure the consumer that they are "Hergestellt in Deutschland" (Made in Germany)
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:32 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
A handful of years ago the two companies began working together to standardize private label products. The rumors have been swirling around about a merger since then. Everyone denies it, but it wouldn't be a major surprise.
Just an interesting aside, ALDI Nord now sells some stuff in Europe under the "Trader Joe's" label
And I think it's pretty funny that the jarred Trader Joe's Hot Dogs with the American flag all over it have to reassure the consumer that they are "Hergestellt in Deutschland" (Made in Germany)
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:32 AM on April 5 [4 favorites]
This is grade A bullshit that sounds like cult speak. I wish MF didn't get so unhinged over unions.
I don't think my current union is perfect, and politically disagree with them on a number of topics. I pay my dues, but don't pay for their political activities (mostly, they're not aggressive enough and don't go far enough for me to donate to them). My job isn't great, but I have done very similar work to what I am doing right now in the private sector. If I was working my current job, without union representation (compared to those private sector jobs, and states where the unions aren't as strong in my sector):
-reduce my pay by about 30+%
-reduce my benefits to the bare minimum required under law
-have less than half my current PTO accrual
-likely have lost my job due to a mental health crisis (union contract protected this over and beyond state law)
My union also has helped me out in non-work arenas, by helping me get a lawyer for a non-work-related civil matter.
So, certainly not bullshit and pretty concrete benefits that have directly lead to a much better quality of life for me and my family. So if i'm not being hyperbolic, probably not a billion times better, but still quite a bit better. Unions are not perfect, but I'd much rather deal with the problems that come up with being a part of a union (overprotection of problem employees, more layers of bureaucracy, etc) than the alternative.
Weak unions exist, bad unions exist, as do bad employers. I stand by it; if you have a boss, you need a union. It's better than the alternatives (as a generalization).
I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, but for the vast majority of unrepresented workers out there, being a union member would yeild them a better life, and give them a layer of security that lots of people don't get in their lives. I hope you get that security in other ways.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:45 AM on April 5 [38 favorites]
I don't think my current union is perfect, and politically disagree with them on a number of topics. I pay my dues, but don't pay for their political activities (mostly, they're not aggressive enough and don't go far enough for me to donate to them). My job isn't great, but I have done very similar work to what I am doing right now in the private sector. If I was working my current job, without union representation (compared to those private sector jobs, and states where the unions aren't as strong in my sector):
-reduce my pay by about 30+%
-reduce my benefits to the bare minimum required under law
-have less than half my current PTO accrual
-likely have lost my job due to a mental health crisis (union contract protected this over and beyond state law)
My union also has helped me out in non-work arenas, by helping me get a lawyer for a non-work-related civil matter.
So, certainly not bullshit and pretty concrete benefits that have directly lead to a much better quality of life for me and my family. So if i'm not being hyperbolic, probably not a billion times better, but still quite a bit better. Unions are not perfect, but I'd much rather deal with the problems that come up with being a part of a union (overprotection of problem employees, more layers of bureaucracy, etc) than the alternative.
Weak unions exist, bad unions exist, as do bad employers. I stand by it; if you have a boss, you need a union. It's better than the alternatives (as a generalization).
I'm sorry that wasn't your experience, but for the vast majority of unrepresented workers out there, being a union member would yeild them a better life, and give them a layer of security that lots of people don't get in their lives. I hope you get that security in other ways.
posted by furnace.heart at 11:45 AM on April 5 [38 favorites]
Plus: giant inflatable rats!
posted by praemunire at 11:57 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:57 AM on April 5 [5 favorites]
The late anti-Graceland backlash seems to have been primarily driven by tumblrinas who absorbed three facts somewhere, jammed them into an already rickety (though important) paradigm, and generated a silly conclusion.
The anti-Graceland backlash - to ride this derailed train because it's something I feel strongly about - is because Paul Simon broke the anti-apartheid boycott then in place over the advice of the ANC and various other labor and political figures. Graceland is a great album, but that was a shitty thing to do.
He was also pretty shady to Los Lobos during the creation of Graceland. If there's anything that makes TJs the Paul Simon of music, it's the "this maybe isn't illegal but it's a really lousy way to behave" part there.
And I mean, this kills me because Graceland is a terrific album. From start to finish, it's good musically, it's coherent, it has something to say about the world that isn't just cliche and self-aggrandizement. Similarly, I get almost everything at Trader Joes except specialty produce and fish and it's pretty good stuff.
posted by Frowner at 12:08 PM on April 5 [23 favorites]
The anti-Graceland backlash - to ride this derailed train because it's something I feel strongly about - is because Paul Simon broke the anti-apartheid boycott then in place over the advice of the ANC and various other labor and political figures. Graceland is a great album, but that was a shitty thing to do.
He was also pretty shady to Los Lobos during the creation of Graceland. If there's anything that makes TJs the Paul Simon of music, it's the "this maybe isn't illegal but it's a really lousy way to behave" part there.
And I mean, this kills me because Graceland is a terrific album. From start to finish, it's good musically, it's coherent, it has something to say about the world that isn't just cliche and self-aggrandizement. Similarly, I get almost everything at Trader Joes except specialty produce and fish and it's pretty good stuff.
posted by Frowner at 12:08 PM on April 5 [23 favorites]
Ritz Crackers are rebranded as Golden Rounds
A lot of places sell Golden Rounds - I don't like HFCS in my round crackers, so I look for versions that don't have any. I've found some. If Ritz would reformulate, I wouldn't have to go all over the place just to find some dang crackers for soup.
posted by 41swans at 12:08 PM on April 5
A lot of places sell Golden Rounds - I don't like HFCS in my round crackers, so I look for versions that don't have any. I've found some. If Ritz would reformulate, I wouldn't have to go all over the place just to find some dang crackers for soup.
posted by 41swans at 12:08 PM on April 5
Aldi Nord (which owns TJ) and Aldi Sud (which owns ALDI) are distinct entities and share nothing beyond the word "Aldi" in their names.
They're one company that was split into two. They're different entities but they inhabit the same niche in the German supermarket world. The amusing/interesting thing is that one decided to try exporting the "kind of crap discount German supermarket" model to the US (having done the rest of Europe, alongside Lidl) and the other bought Trader Joe's. The heavy reliance on private labelling by both is not a coincidence.
posted by hoyland at 12:13 PM on April 5
They're one company that was split into two. They're different entities but they inhabit the same niche in the German supermarket world. The amusing/interesting thing is that one decided to try exporting the "kind of crap discount German supermarket" model to the US (having done the rest of Europe, alongside Lidl) and the other bought Trader Joe's. The heavy reliance on private labelling by both is not a coincidence.
posted by hoyland at 12:13 PM on April 5
And while German supermarkets are generally kind of meh, oh boy was I excited when the Lidl opened in Harlem. It was a wonderland, both because it was much bigger than the standard NYC supermarket and because they carried all sorts of stuff (good cheese!) that I'd been forgoing because it cost an arm and a leg at Key Food.
posted by hoyland at 12:15 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by hoyland at 12:15 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I worked at Trader Joe's for 10+ years, and the main reason they never unionized in the past is that they had incredible pay and benefits compared to any other grocer and especially union stores. They still have incredible pay and benefits. I know many non management that work there that make about $30/hour and every employee (that works in a non union store) is about to get a $2/hour raise (on top of the twice yearly $0.75/hour raise).
The reason I left is that the job is brutally physical. I was literally lifting about 2 tons a day over a 7 hour shift.
Also, my store manager quit to spend more time with her kids, and was replaced by a terrible authoritarian.
When I took my first post TJs job as a GIS technician for a county elections office, I took a $10/hour pay cut to leave TJs. Veteran employees call this the Golden Handcuffs...it's very very difficult to find any work where you'll make nearly as much as TJs.
TL;DR -- TJs may suck, but I promise they suck less than most grocers...
posted by schyler523 at 12:39 PM on April 5 [15 favorites]
The reason I left is that the job is brutally physical. I was literally lifting about 2 tons a day over a 7 hour shift.
Also, my store manager quit to spend more time with her kids, and was replaced by a terrible authoritarian.
When I took my first post TJs job as a GIS technician for a county elections office, I took a $10/hour pay cut to leave TJs. Veteran employees call this the Golden Handcuffs...it's very very difficult to find any work where you'll make nearly as much as TJs.
TL;DR -- TJs may suck, but I promise they suck less than most grocers...
posted by schyler523 at 12:39 PM on April 5 [15 favorites]
So on the one hand, TJ-brand Pringles are "duping" but also the companies who make them are cooperating? What, exactly, is the misdirection here? Who cares if Golden Rounds are actually Ritz? They're cheaper, which is the point.
My next door neighbor is a product manager for packaging at Smuckers. I've asked him the same question. Apparently it's a big deal for major brand name food manufacturers to not sell private label versions of their own products, or even source them for other brands. Doing so dilutes the perception of their brand, which is what gives them the ability to charge premium prices on their respective shelves.
posted by slogger at 12:43 PM on April 5
My next door neighbor is a product manager for packaging at Smuckers. I've asked him the same question. Apparently it's a big deal for major brand name food manufacturers to not sell private label versions of their own products, or even source them for other brands. Doing so dilutes the perception of their brand, which is what gives them the ability to charge premium prices on their respective shelves.
posted by slogger at 12:43 PM on April 5
oh are we doing this?
a lot can be said for tone, and if you think the OP's comment required a "grade-A bullshit cultspeak" smackdown of unions, then: we read tone differently, and let's leave it at that
anti-union bullshit gets a response from me. I must be in a fucking cult, I get it
posted by elkevelvet at 12:57 PM on April 5 [5 favorites]
a lot can be said for tone, and if you think the OP's comment required a "grade-A bullshit cultspeak" smackdown of unions, then: we read tone differently, and let's leave it at that
anti-union bullshit gets a response from me. I must be in a fucking cult, I get it
posted by elkevelvet at 12:57 PM on April 5 [5 favorites]
Mod note: A couple comments deleted. This is not the right place to call "bullshit"or "unhinged" what other fellow members have to say. *points vaguely at the guidelines*
posted by loup (staff) at 1:01 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
posted by loup (staff) at 1:01 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
(to ride this derailed train because it's something I feel strongly about - is because Paul Simon broke the anti-apartheid boycott then in place over the advice of the ANC and various other labor and political figures.
Sorry, I didn't want to endlessly derail, which is why I didn't go into this detail in the first place, but I do think there was legitimate controversy at the time over that (I remember it). You rarely hear about that in the late-version backlash, though, because that would require some detailed knowledge of facts and historical context and then grappling with some tricky ethical issues. No, instead you usually get a silly variant on "Paul Simon is an appropriator because he worked with African musical groups to make music reflecting multiple traditions." That is what I object to, not criticism of Simon generally.)
posted by praemunire at 1:21 PM on April 5
Sorry, I didn't want to endlessly derail, which is why I didn't go into this detail in the first place, but I do think there was legitimate controversy at the time over that (I remember it). You rarely hear about that in the late-version backlash, though, because that would require some detailed knowledge of facts and historical context and then grappling with some tricky ethical issues. No, instead you usually get a silly variant on "Paul Simon is an appropriator because he worked with African musical groups to make music reflecting multiple traditions." That is what I object to, not criticism of Simon generally.)
posted by praemunire at 1:21 PM on April 5
I feel bad for the culinary creates who got and get fucked by this…
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:22 PM on April 5
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:22 PM on April 5
But are the stores still good to work at?
Slate: You’re not imagining it: Trader Joe’s employees are all boning each other.
posted by mmascolino at 1:27 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]
Slate: You’re not imagining it: Trader Joe’s employees are all boning each other.
posted by mmascolino at 1:27 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]
The amusing/interesting thing is that one decided to try exporting the "kind of crap discount German supermarket" model to the US
That "crap discount market" may have been the 1980s version of ALDI but it's now the third largest chain in the US, with the biggest gains in suburban middle-class markets (without changing a thing).
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:31 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
That "crap discount market" may have been the 1980s version of ALDI but it's now the third largest chain in the US, with the biggest gains in suburban middle-class markets (without changing a thing).
posted by JoeZydeco at 1:31 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
The reality is that we couldn't have the price and selection that Trader Joe's offers if it wasn't ruthless to its suppliers and landlords and (in a way) ruthless to its competitors in part through the high wages and benefits that if offers to secure better staffing. Nature is bloody in tooth and claw, y'all.
posted by MattD at 1:32 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
posted by MattD at 1:32 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Capitalism ain't nature, much as it would like you to think otherwise.
posted by praemunire at 1:45 PM on April 5 [8 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 1:45 PM on April 5 [8 favorites]
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Paul Simon of grocery stores.
Call it the Urban Outfitters of grocery stores.
And you can call me Al.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:58 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Call it the Urban Outfitters of grocery stores.
And you can call me Al.
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:58 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Capitalism ain't nature, much as it would like you to think otherwise.
Unless we have souls that transcend the physical world, capitalism absolutely is nature. Everything we do is nature, we are not supernatural. Nature is not good or just or fair. It is cruel and unfeeling.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:29 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Unless we have souls that transcend the physical world, capitalism absolutely is nature. Everything we do is nature, we are not supernatural. Nature is not good or just or fair. It is cruel and unfeeling.
posted by grumpybear69 at 2:29 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Unless we have souls that transcend the physical world, capitalism absolutely is nature.
Dollars don't grow on trees, man--capitalism is a human invention that a lot of people have worked very hard to pretend is governed by "natural laws" that have nothing to do with human choices or structures because it exculpates them from the harm it does.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 5 [15 favorites]
Dollars don't grow on trees, man--capitalism is a human invention that a lot of people have worked very hard to pretend is governed by "natural laws" that have nothing to do with human choices or structures because it exculpates them from the harm it does.
posted by praemunire at 2:35 PM on April 5 [15 favorites]
Praemunire, what economic model do you believe would be better when it comes to distributing food to people?
posted by Selena777 at 2:41 PM on April 5
posted by Selena777 at 2:41 PM on April 5
let us give thanks to Trader Joe's for the bounty we are about to receive
on the question of humans and their relationship to nature, I eagerly await the fruits of further discussion
posted by elkevelvet at 2:41 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
on the question of humans and their relationship to nature, I eagerly await the fruits of further discussion
posted by elkevelvet at 2:41 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
you cannot go against nature
because if you do
you find that to go against nature
is a part of nature too-oo
posted by polecat at 2:56 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
because if you do
you find that to go against nature
is a part of nature too-oo
posted by polecat at 2:56 PM on April 5 [3 favorites]
Praemunire, what economic model do you believe would be better when it comes to distributing food to people?
Hey I'll bite: Anything less exploitative that provides food for anyone that needs it. That might mean uncomfortable lifestyle changes for people that happen to be very privileged, and rich.
Circular economies that do not generate profit. Ideally, a system of cooperatives and/or syndicates growing and distributing food to anyone who needs it, and anyone who can contribute to that system does. And then a system of cooperatives and/or syndicates that collect and process waste into fertilizers and compost for food production. No one should have to work 40+ hours a week at a grocery store. We should all work like an hour a week at a grocery store (if we can). And all the while, we should make sure all our neighbors have enough to eat (among other basic human needs).
Every system humans create is trade offs all the way up and down. It's about choosing the sets of problems you want to deal with; would you rather have the problems of people going hungry and exploitative labor practices, or would you rather have the problems of covering your lazy neighbor's shift at the food depot?
posted by furnace.heart at 3:02 PM on April 5 [13 favorites]
Hey I'll bite: Anything less exploitative that provides food for anyone that needs it. That might mean uncomfortable lifestyle changes for people that happen to be very privileged, and rich.
Circular economies that do not generate profit. Ideally, a system of cooperatives and/or syndicates growing and distributing food to anyone who needs it, and anyone who can contribute to that system does. And then a system of cooperatives and/or syndicates that collect and process waste into fertilizers and compost for food production. No one should have to work 40+ hours a week at a grocery store. We should all work like an hour a week at a grocery store (if we can). And all the while, we should make sure all our neighbors have enough to eat (among other basic human needs).
Every system humans create is trade offs all the way up and down. It's about choosing the sets of problems you want to deal with; would you rather have the problems of people going hungry and exploitative labor practices, or would you rather have the problems of covering your lazy neighbor's shift at the food depot?
posted by furnace.heart at 3:02 PM on April 5 [13 favorites]
I'd add, we have many examples of humans creating systems other than capitalism over the span of time
to point to capitalism and say it's the best we've come up with so far, it's just ahistorical. capitalism is very good at some things and very shitty at other things
on that note: Happy Friday and have a great weekend. I can't say I've seen this anywhere so I'm claiming it for my own: "There is no owe in the friendship alphabet"
posted by elkevelvet at 3:19 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]
to point to capitalism and say it's the best we've come up with so far, it's just ahistorical. capitalism is very good at some things and very shitty at other things
on that note: Happy Friday and have a great weekend. I can't say I've seen this anywhere so I'm claiming it for my own: "There is no owe in the friendship alphabet"
posted by elkevelvet at 3:19 PM on April 5 [6 favorites]
I'd add, we have many examples of humans creating systems other than capitalism over the span of time
I was asking her which one she prefers.
posted by Selena777 at 3:22 PM on April 5
I was asking her which one she prefers.
posted by Selena777 at 3:22 PM on April 5
Praemunire, what economic model do you believe would be better when it comes to distributing food to people?
Me? I am (more or less, give or take) a socialist. But I'm not sure where this question is coming from in this conversation: what does that have to do with whether capitalism is "natural" or not? The line of thinking that goes "well, [I believe] capitalism is the best at getting food to people so far [even as we're facing impending famine in more than one country], therefore one should not criticize or question its claims for itself" is not worthy of grown-ups.
posted by praemunire at 3:44 PM on April 5 [13 favorites]
Me? I am (more or less, give or take) a socialist. But I'm not sure where this question is coming from in this conversation: what does that have to do with whether capitalism is "natural" or not? The line of thinking that goes "well, [I believe] capitalism is the best at getting food to people so far [even as we're facing impending famine in more than one country], therefore one should not criticize or question its claims for itself" is not worthy of grown-ups.
posted by praemunire at 3:44 PM on April 5 [13 favorites]
Just wanted to point out that Fly by Jing charges (according to their website) $17 for a food category you can get manifold variations of at Chinatown supermarkets for $3-4 (in NYC at least). I find myself kind of offended by their absurdly expensive product showing up in even non-fancy supermarkets now.
posted by nobody at 3:48 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by nobody at 3:48 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Out of curiosity I asked about distribution because it *is* a failure of this system and wondered if you had a different idea of what people should do that was enacted in the past and would be more natural and possibly more effective than what we do now.
posted by Selena777 at 3:49 PM on April 5
posted by Selena777 at 3:49 PM on April 5
The line of thinking that goes "well, [I believe] capitalism is the best at getting food to people so far [even as we're facing impending famine in more than one country], therefore one should not criticize or question its claims for itself" is not worthy of grown-ups.
Is that a line of thinking anyone is following here? Criticism of capitalism is welcome as far as I'm concerned! It is, like any other system that commodifies power in a way that can be hoarded, ripe for abuse. But as to whether or not it is "natural" depends, clearly, on what your definition of "natural" is. For me, it isn't trees or grass or animals or the wind or solar systems. It is everything. As in, there is nothing that is not natural because "nature" is just another word for "the universe in all of its complexity and splendor." And that includes humans and their thoughts, cruelty, money, etc.
If your definition of "natural" is "what clearly follows from a just and equitable system of thought centered around the reduction of human suffering" then I can see how you would feel capitalism does not fall under that umbrella. But nature - even tree-and-animal nature - is not just or equitable or even kind. It is downright horrifying.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:00 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
Is that a line of thinking anyone is following here? Criticism of capitalism is welcome as far as I'm concerned! It is, like any other system that commodifies power in a way that can be hoarded, ripe for abuse. But as to whether or not it is "natural" depends, clearly, on what your definition of "natural" is. For me, it isn't trees or grass or animals or the wind or solar systems. It is everything. As in, there is nothing that is not natural because "nature" is just another word for "the universe in all of its complexity and splendor." And that includes humans and their thoughts, cruelty, money, etc.
If your definition of "natural" is "what clearly follows from a just and equitable system of thought centered around the reduction of human suffering" then I can see how you would feel capitalism does not fall under that umbrella. But nature - even tree-and-animal nature - is not just or equitable or even kind. It is downright horrifying.
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:00 PM on April 5 [2 favorites]
From what I hear, grocery stores don't make much of a profit, but they do make a considerable amount out of slotting fees -- that is, charging suppliers for the real estate of their shelving.
posted by Peach at 4:27 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
For some grocery chains, these fees “are a large part of their profits,” said Howard Davidowitz, chairman of the retail consultancy/investment banking firm Davidowitz & Associates. He added that traditional grocery chains count on them to bolster their razor-thin profit margins. “The biggest food suppliers do this,” said Davidowitz.Trader Joe's seems to have sidestepped that process.
posted by Peach at 4:27 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
ly by Jing charges (according to their website) $17 for a food category you can get manifold variations of at Chinatown supermarkets for $3-4 (in NYC at least).
I've been on a chili crisp kick lately, and I can tell you that "in NYC at least" is doing quite a lot of work there.
posted by advil at 4:55 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
I've been on a chili crisp kick lately, and I can tell you that "in NYC at least" is doing quite a lot of work there.
posted by advil at 4:55 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
So many union-supporters here on the Blue! Great—but please, I beg you—don’t post any links to films or TV shows on YouTube—no SAG, WGA or DGA residuals will be paid, remember?
My local Ralph’s is Kroger and a union shop and self-checkout replaced many employees.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:35 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
My local Ralph’s is Kroger and a union shop and self-checkout replaced many employees.
posted by Ideefixe at 5:35 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
They're never good jobs. They take the harder parts of warehouse work (heavy lifting, slippery floors, hot/cold environments and mix it with dealing with all of the public (cause everyone has to eat), including all the assholes. There is no such thing as a good grocery job
This is extremely true. I worked for far, far too long at a food co-op because it seemed like a responsible, ethical business in a wasteland of strip malls and chain stores. Maybe it was, in a way, because the board, membership, management, and employees all went to great lengths to ensure that prices were low, local growers and producers were given a fair shake, and every product and supplier was held to the highest standards. It was also exhiliating in ways that were perfect for 20-something me: I was given responsibilities far beyond what was reasonable based on my youth and inexperience, and I ran with them and honestly thrived.
But my wage never broke $6.40/hour. This was not as bad in 1996-2005 as it would be today, but was actually still really, really bad. And there was, of course, no health insurance, because fuck mainstream medicine. I think the managers were pulling down less than $30K/year, and one was possibly being quietly compensated via a subsidized apartment and free food instead of wages (!). There was also a steady thrum of pseudoscientific and alternative wellness grift (some of which I now recognize as a direct antecedent to today's antivax movement) which was officially tolerated and even encouraged. I also permanently destroyed my back. Don't let your kids spend too long working at a grocery store, especially one that is cool or engaging enough to really get its hooks in you.
posted by pullayup at 5:45 PM on April 5 [12 favorites]
This is extremely true. I worked for far, far too long at a food co-op because it seemed like a responsible, ethical business in a wasteland of strip malls and chain stores. Maybe it was, in a way, because the board, membership, management, and employees all went to great lengths to ensure that prices were low, local growers and producers were given a fair shake, and every product and supplier was held to the highest standards. It was also exhiliating in ways that were perfect for 20-something me: I was given responsibilities far beyond what was reasonable based on my youth and inexperience, and I ran with them and honestly thrived.
But my wage never broke $6.40/hour. This was not as bad in 1996-2005 as it would be today, but was actually still really, really bad. And there was, of course, no health insurance, because fuck mainstream medicine. I think the managers were pulling down less than $30K/year, and one was possibly being quietly compensated via a subsidized apartment and free food instead of wages (!). There was also a steady thrum of pseudoscientific and alternative wellness grift (some of which I now recognize as a direct antecedent to today's antivax movement) which was officially tolerated and even encouraged. I also permanently destroyed my back. Don't let your kids spend too long working at a grocery store, especially one that is cool or engaging enough to really get its hooks in you.
posted by pullayup at 5:45 PM on April 5 [12 favorites]
I've been on a chili crisp kick lately, and I can tell you that "in NYC at least" is doing quite a lot of work there.
I haven't ordered from them myself, but I've seen recommended yamibuy.com, whose selection of genuine sold-in-China products overlaps a bunch with what I see in the NY Chinatown supermarkets, with a whole lot of chili crisp variants in the $3-5 range.
posted by nobody at 6:06 PM on April 5
I haven't ordered from them myself, but I've seen recommended yamibuy.com, whose selection of genuine sold-in-China products overlaps a bunch with what I see in the NY Chinatown supermarkets, with a whole lot of chili crisp variants in the $3-5 range.
posted by nobody at 6:06 PM on April 5
Anthropologie and Urban Outfitters are infamous for doing this. I’ve known so many people who’ve had meetings with either company (really they’re the same company just different demographics) only to have their product blatantly knocked off later. I could easily count a dozen friends or acquaintances who had this happen to them over the years.
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 6:06 PM on April 5
posted by Conrad-Casserole at 6:06 PM on April 5
I'm new to Oregon and have found myself shopping more often at WinCo than at TJ's. The prices are more in line with Meijer's, back in Michigan. I don't know what it means that it is "employee owned," but I'm curious if those who do think it is a good alternative.
posted by rebent at 6:08 PM on April 5
posted by rebent at 6:08 PM on April 5
Winco is only partially employee owned, and this benefit comes in the form of an odd stock option, which is sort of supposed to be their alternative to a pension or 401k. Most folks working there make closer to minimum wage than not, and most do not stay long enough to benefit from the “employee owned” model. That term is not regulated in the US, and covers a lot of ground.
They seem to give their employees a wide latitude in strange things: my local winco has a cashier who regularly dresses up as Dorothy from the wizard of oz just for shits. It’s super weird but that wouldn’t fly at any other grocery store ever.
posted by furnace.heart at 7:22 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
They seem to give their employees a wide latitude in strange things: my local winco has a cashier who regularly dresses up as Dorothy from the wizard of oz just for shits. It’s super weird but that wouldn’t fly at any other grocery store ever.
posted by furnace.heart at 7:22 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Metafilter: So much for that prognostication.
posted by Reverend John at 9:37 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
posted by Reverend John at 9:37 PM on April 5 [1 favorite]
Trader Joe was acquired by German megaconglomerate Aldi Nord in 1979, and the founder Joe Coulombe stayed on until 1988.
All the hawaiian shirts and the aw-shucks prose style is an affectation.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:19 PM on April 5
All the hawaiian shirts and the aw-shucks prose style is an affectation.
posted by dum spiro spero at 11:19 PM on April 5
All the hawaiian shirts and the aw-shucks prose style is an affectation.
I don't think that's news to anyone here.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there are grocery stores that you can spend less than 20 minutes in and get a full week of groceries and they're nice to you and the total cost isn't too bad and the produce isn't great but it gets the job done. And those grocery stores are called Trader Joe's.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:15 AM on April 6 [7 favorites]
I don't think that's news to anyone here.
There's no ethical consumption under capitalism, but there are grocery stores that you can spend less than 20 minutes in and get a full week of groceries and they're nice to you and the total cost isn't too bad and the produce isn't great but it gets the job done. And those grocery stores are called Trader Joe's.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:15 AM on April 6 [7 favorites]
It's one of the best shitty retail jobs -- but it's still a shitty retail job.
posted by cosmologinaut at 1:06 AM on April 6 [4 favorites]
posted by cosmologinaut at 1:06 AM on April 6 [4 favorites]
There is no ethical posting consumption under capitalism.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:40 AM on April 6
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:40 AM on April 6
Why don’t these entrepreneurs make TJ sign a confidentiality agreement/NDA before talking to them? Or trademark the label?
Also, if more extensive IP rights extended to recipes, that would be a MUCH bigger disaster for consumers.
posted by haptic_avenger at 6:38 AM on April 6
Also, if more extensive IP rights extended to recipes, that would be a MUCH bigger disaster for consumers.
posted by haptic_avenger at 6:38 AM on April 6
Why don’t these entrepreneurs make TJ sign a confidentiality agreement/NDA before talking to them?
Sincere question for anyone with knowledge in this area: does this happen? In any industry? My assumption is that the power dynamic here is 100% with the company/corporation where the entrepreneur/creative seeks a larger market, unless the entrepreneur/creative has unusual clout.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:54 AM on April 6 [3 favorites]
Sincere question for anyone with knowledge in this area: does this happen? In any industry? My assumption is that the power dynamic here is 100% with the company/corporation where the entrepreneur/creative seeks a larger market, unless the entrepreneur/creative has unusual clout.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:54 AM on April 6 [3 favorites]
Capitalism begetting capitalism. Seems to me like people are expecting TJ's to do 'the right thing' - whatever that means (it's different for each of us). It's not going to happen that easily.
Change the system with your pocketbook - buy from the purveyors that align with your values.
And if that's not possible, don't spend the money and make it yourself instead.
And if you're not willing to do either, congrats - you are now a beneficiary of the system and perpetuator of the problem.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 8:31 AM on April 6
Change the system with your pocketbook - buy from the purveyors that align with your values.
And if that's not possible, don't spend the money and make it yourself instead.
And if you're not willing to do either, congrats - you are now a beneficiary of the system and perpetuator of the problem.
posted by WorkshopGuyPNW at 8:31 AM on April 6
I dunno; that’s a very principled stand but… how does it work when there are no good options? I believe there are no ethical pharmaceutical companies, but I need some medications or there’s a good chance I’ll die. So I guess I’m a beneficiary of the system. How about you?
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:24 PM on April 6 [15 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:24 PM on April 6 [15 favorites]
Ladies and Gentlemen, the Paul Simon of grocery stores.
Now I want to know what the Art Garfunkel of grocery stores is :(
posted by mazola at 4:31 PM on April 6
Now I want to know what the Art Garfunkel of grocery stores is :(
posted by mazola at 4:31 PM on April 6
The Art Garfunkel of grocery stores would have to be Aldi, in that case.
posted by rikschell at 10:14 AM on April 7 [4 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 10:14 AM on April 7 [4 favorites]
I've never quite recovered from TJ's discontinuing the packets of tuna in curry sauce, although there are now mainstream knockoffs of the red curry one and they're not as good. Supposedly the product was pulled because it sold too well and the small manufacturer that made it was wholly unprepared to scale up to meet the demand.
(I always wonder about stuff like this with influencers blowing up mom 'n' pop businesses that in turn are kinda stressed out and stretched thin by sudden TikTok fame.)
posted by mirepoix at 9:50 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
(I always wonder about stuff like this with influencers blowing up mom 'n' pop businesses that in turn are kinda stressed out and stretched thin by sudden TikTok fame.)
posted by mirepoix at 9:50 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
"oh are we doing this?
a lot can be said for tone, and if you think the OP's comment required a "grade-A bullshit cultspeak" smackdown of unions, then: we read tone differently, and let's leave it at that
anti-union bullshit gets a response from me. I must be in a fucking cult, I get it"
I just came back to this thread, and I think this might be aimed at me...
So to be clear, I think unionizing is a good thing and I support it. I think that TJs is terrible for being part of the suit seeking to destroy the NLRB.
My point stands though...the reason that unionizing a TJs is difficult is that they currently pay better than unionized grocery stores and always have (mainly to avoid unionization efforts.) It will be difficult to convince TJs employees that currently get better pay and benefits than a union can reasonably offer them to vote for unionization. I know this because two of the three stores I worked at had informal unionization efforts where some employees surveyed the entire crew to gauge interest. In both stores, only about 35% of people were interested in unionization, since about 2/3rds of the crew were already making more than what they could expect under unionization. The stores where unionization succeeded were stores with high turnover and a lack of veteran employees, since those stores would be improved by unionization.
posted by schyler523 at 9:29 AM on April 12
a lot can be said for tone, and if you think the OP's comment required a "grade-A bullshit cultspeak" smackdown of unions, then: we read tone differently, and let's leave it at that
anti-union bullshit gets a response from me. I must be in a fucking cult, I get it"
I just came back to this thread, and I think this might be aimed at me...
So to be clear, I think unionizing is a good thing and I support it. I think that TJs is terrible for being part of the suit seeking to destroy the NLRB.
My point stands though...the reason that unionizing a TJs is difficult is that they currently pay better than unionized grocery stores and always have (mainly to avoid unionization efforts.) It will be difficult to convince TJs employees that currently get better pay and benefits than a union can reasonably offer them to vote for unionization. I know this because two of the three stores I worked at had informal unionization efforts where some employees surveyed the entire crew to gauge interest. In both stores, only about 35% of people were interested in unionization, since about 2/3rds of the crew were already making more than what they could expect under unionization. The stores where unionization succeeded were stores with high turnover and a lack of veteran employees, since those stores would be improved by unionization.
posted by schyler523 at 9:29 AM on April 12
I think this might be aimed at me...
FWIW I'm pretty sure these responses were aimed at a deleted comment around the same time, not your comment.
posted by advil at 1:12 PM on April 12 [1 favorite]
FWIW I'm pretty sure these responses were aimed at a deleted comment around the same time, not your comment.
posted by advil at 1:12 PM on April 12 [1 favorite]
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posted by jedicus at 8:38 AM on April 5 [31 favorites]