What did you think all them saddles and boots was about?
April 6, 2024 5:31 PM Subscribe
Orville Peck & Willie Nelson - Cowboys Are Frequently Secretly Fond Of Each Other (slyt)
After B recently kicked open the doors with the support of country music royalty, one of the only remaining bandits of outlaw country defines the terms of the draw. Shots fired!, for the Country music genre typically associated with opposing values.
After B recently kicked open the doors with the support of country music royalty, one of the only remaining bandits of outlaw country defines the terms of the draw. Shots fired!, for the Country music genre typically associated with opposing values.
I love Orville Peck. If you're new to his music, he has a lot of great videos and original music. Dead of Night is one of my favorites. No Glory in the West is also great for the audaciousness of being more Johnny Cash than Johnny Cash. He's a really talented musician.
This new track is good and I'm hopeful for the coming duet album Stampede. I appreciate him taking a bow with Willie Nelson and with this song in particular, the role it played in progressive country when Nelson made it famous. (Although listen to Sublette's 1981 original to really get the history.)
But ... and I hate to say this ... But the song sounds kind of dated to me now in the more genderqueer aware 2020s. To overthink this can o' beans... The whole song is a gag about "lol isn't it funny that cowboys can be gay?" And it conflates having a different sexual orientation (men attracted to men) with different gender identity (men being femme). I'm not mad about any of this, it's very much of its time and in a positive way. And Sublette, Nelson, and Peck all mean LGBT respect with it. Still, it's a little dated. It used to be this song was a big deal because it was gay. Now it's a big deal to have Peck singing this song that's such an emblem of queer country with no less than Willie Nelson himself.
For more Peck singing queer(ish) country classics, his version of Fancy is fantastic and queers it by making the narrator's gender explicit (the original is gender neutral!). I'm also in love with Peck and Trixie Mattel singing Jackson. Great campy song, bent if not queer, and the two of them just sing the hell out of it.
posted by Nelson at 5:47 PM on April 6 [9 favorites]
This new track is good and I'm hopeful for the coming duet album Stampede. I appreciate him taking a bow with Willie Nelson and with this song in particular, the role it played in progressive country when Nelson made it famous. (Although listen to Sublette's 1981 original to really get the history.)
But ... and I hate to say this ... But the song sounds kind of dated to me now in the more genderqueer aware 2020s. To overthink this can o' beans... The whole song is a gag about "lol isn't it funny that cowboys can be gay?" And it conflates having a different sexual orientation (men attracted to men) with different gender identity (men being femme). I'm not mad about any of this, it's very much of its time and in a positive way. And Sublette, Nelson, and Peck all mean LGBT respect with it. Still, it's a little dated. It used to be this song was a big deal because it was gay. Now it's a big deal to have Peck singing this song that's such an emblem of queer country with no less than Willie Nelson himself.
For more Peck singing queer(ish) country classics, his version of Fancy is fantastic and queers it by making the narrator's gender explicit (the original is gender neutral!). I'm also in love with Peck and Trixie Mattel singing Jackson. Great campy song, bent if not queer, and the two of them just sing the hell out of it.
posted by Nelson at 5:47 PM on April 6 [9 favorites]
Excellent.
posted by whatevernot at 5:55 PM on April 6
posted by whatevernot at 5:55 PM on April 6
I mean to be fair, when Sublette was recording, the idea of Genderfuck was developing into a thing which would become much more seriously performative a decade later in the Nineties when doing things to proclaim a queer identity was so important in the context of claiming space within a culture that was seeking to erase the Queers during the AIDS crisis. Doing Genderfuck was often the easiest way to put a thumb into the eye of the dominant culture, and it is important to see how the Sisters Of Perpetual Indulgence rose into prominence during this period.
I sort of miss how in these days when Gender is a political football, Genderfuck has gotten a bit lost. It appears here and there, but some of the flavor of it has drained out now. I can't explain how I feel about it exactly. But I think it's an element of culture that is sad to lose.
posted by hippybear at 6:10 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
I sort of miss how in these days when Gender is a political football, Genderfuck has gotten a bit lost. It appears here and there, but some of the flavor of it has drained out now. I can't explain how I feel about it exactly. But I think it's an element of culture that is sad to lose.
posted by hippybear at 6:10 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
a) it's better than his work with Shania; there voices merge well.
b) what was radical 25 years seems reacitonary now, the sublimiated homoeroticism equals violence, the conflation of a sexual dissdence with a gendered dissidence, the obsession w/ secrecy, all of it---i know that there is violence against queer folks in the west and the south. but there has to be a space where it is not the only thing continually mentioned---which has been mentioned w/ brokeback, and the textual interleaving b/w the film, Nelson, and his reputation made it forgivable, this time i am not so sure...I wonder if this kind of martyrdom odes, this longing, this kind of past looking makes it easier for the politics of the state to make arguments against queer desire.
c) this is esp the case when we live in a renaissance of queer country---what does Cowboys are Secretly Frequently when we live in a world of Willi Carlisle's Life on the Fence or Justin Hiltner's Yoke of My Shirt or Dixon Dallas' Good Lookin or Katie Pruitt's Loving Her or Brittany Howard's Georgia or etc...
d) i think that it still provides ironic distance, which is a place where Peck has thrived. It's interesting to think of Peck as a continuation not of Nelson but of Sublette---a brilliant absorber, and extender of genre, and a decent musician, but the anxiety of someone being born in 1958, writing novelities in NY in the 1980s is different than queer desire now (Also see the video, the hipster stench of the video)
e) still waiting for the queer reworking of me and paul..
posted by PinkMoose at 6:11 PM on April 6 [2 favorites]
b) what was radical 25 years seems reacitonary now, the sublimiated homoeroticism equals violence, the conflation of a sexual dissdence with a gendered dissidence, the obsession w/ secrecy, all of it---i know that there is violence against queer folks in the west and the south. but there has to be a space where it is not the only thing continually mentioned---which has been mentioned w/ brokeback, and the textual interleaving b/w the film, Nelson, and his reputation made it forgivable, this time i am not so sure...I wonder if this kind of martyrdom odes, this longing, this kind of past looking makes it easier for the politics of the state to make arguments against queer desire.
c) this is esp the case when we live in a renaissance of queer country---what does Cowboys are Secretly Frequently when we live in a world of Willi Carlisle's Life on the Fence or Justin Hiltner's Yoke of My Shirt or Dixon Dallas' Good Lookin or Katie Pruitt's Loving Her or Brittany Howard's Georgia or etc...
d) i think that it still provides ironic distance, which is a place where Peck has thrived. It's interesting to think of Peck as a continuation not of Nelson but of Sublette---a brilliant absorber, and extender of genre, and a decent musician, but the anxiety of someone being born in 1958, writing novelities in NY in the 1980s is different than queer desire now (Also see the video, the hipster stench of the video)
e) still waiting for the queer reworking of me and paul..
posted by PinkMoose at 6:11 PM on April 6 [2 favorites]
Also, Peck's mask is getting smaller as each year passes.
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
Pecks identity is also known now. So the mask seems more a gimmick/distancing identity from other work than having to hide his real identity. Idk how he plays in his native South Africa, but I’ve wondered if “he’s not from here” gets him a pass in the less tolerant musical culture.
Wow! I did not know Willie did it in 2006. Missed that.
Sure it still plays into a binary: even where man expresses an internal woman voice, and woman expresses an internal male voice. But where we might be living in 2024, and in 6 years we’ll be judging this time, I still wonder to what extent other subcultures still aren’t in “2024.” My fiancé used to joke about men expressing “I’m feeling some kind of way” as “that’s the extent of emotional range?: The ‘anger’ and ‘I don’t have a word for it’ binary.” I don’t feel the video is so regressive*; I’m hoping it opens some door for someone somewhere.
*point taken PinkMoose it could be, esp equating sexuality and gender.
posted by rubatan at 6:51 PM on April 6
Wow! I did not know Willie did it in 2006. Missed that.
Sure it still plays into a binary: even where man expresses an internal woman voice, and woman expresses an internal male voice. But where we might be living in 2024, and in 6 years we’ll be judging this time, I still wonder to what extent other subcultures still aren’t in “2024.” My fiancé used to joke about men expressing “I’m feeling some kind of way” as “that’s the extent of emotional range?: The ‘anger’ and ‘I don’t have a word for it’ binary.” I don’t feel the video is so regressive*; I’m hoping it opens some door for someone somewhere.
*point taken PinkMoose it could be, esp equating sexuality and gender.
posted by rubatan at 6:51 PM on April 6
With the Stampede release and this single Peck has stopped wearing the tassles on his mask. He's down to just a Lone Ranger-style domino mask. Good thing too because he's very handsome. I liked the mask as part of his whole costume, particularly with the Nudie Suits. But maybe it's time to move past that the tassles, they gotta be annoying.
His pseudonymity is long since gone, Wikipedia even gives his birth name. I don't think it's right to qualify him as South African really. He was born there but left 20 years ago at age 15, has lived all over since then. His previous band was in Vancouver and he lives in LA now. In any case the Orville Peck act is pure Americana.
Hippybear, I like your comments about genderfuck and how important it was in a particular context. Our current queer understanding of gender is different. I think more inclusive, or at least more diverse and expansive. But I also miss the basic genderfuck of the 90s. I used to run around in a dress occasionally not because I'm transgender or a crossdresser but just because it'd fuck with the normies to see a tall guy in a dress. Anyway I like locating this songs' lyrics in that genderfuck context. It also works because part of Peck's whole act is nostalgia, so in a way this is nostalgic for the time when declaring that men could be feminine was shocking.
One more queer version: Pansy Division recorded Cowboys... in 1994. It is, um, not to my tastes but it's nice that exists.
Some love for Willie Nelson too.. He does sound awfully old singing with Peck but he's still playing strong at age 90! My favorite album of his is the very spare Crazy Demo Sessions. The titular Crazy is another queer anthem, at least in the Patsy Cline version we all know. Not sure if Willie Nelson meant it to be that when he wrote it in the late 50s but it belongs to the gays now.
posted by Nelson at 7:10 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
His pseudonymity is long since gone, Wikipedia even gives his birth name. I don't think it's right to qualify him as South African really. He was born there but left 20 years ago at age 15, has lived all over since then. His previous band was in Vancouver and he lives in LA now. In any case the Orville Peck act is pure Americana.
Hippybear, I like your comments about genderfuck and how important it was in a particular context. Our current queer understanding of gender is different. I think more inclusive, or at least more diverse and expansive. But I also miss the basic genderfuck of the 90s. I used to run around in a dress occasionally not because I'm transgender or a crossdresser but just because it'd fuck with the normies to see a tall guy in a dress. Anyway I like locating this songs' lyrics in that genderfuck context. It also works because part of Peck's whole act is nostalgia, so in a way this is nostalgic for the time when declaring that men could be feminine was shocking.
One more queer version: Pansy Division recorded Cowboys... in 1994. It is, um, not to my tastes but it's nice that exists.
Some love for Willie Nelson too.. He does sound awfully old singing with Peck but he's still playing strong at age 90! My favorite album of his is the very spare Crazy Demo Sessions. The titular Crazy is another queer anthem, at least in the Patsy Cline version we all know. Not sure if Willie Nelson meant it to be that when he wrote it in the late 50s but it belongs to the gays now.
posted by Nelson at 7:10 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
I used to run around in a dress occasionally not because I'm transgender or a crossdresser but just because it'd fuck with the normies to see a tall guy in a dress.
That's exactly the energy I miss in the world.
posted by hippybear at 7:13 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
That's exactly the energy I miss in the world.
posted by hippybear at 7:13 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
Acceptance of homosexuality is in decline across the board and still subject to brazen acts of historical revisionism, and country music is 20 years deep into a sickening post 9/11 rejection of women who are too powerful/liberated and pushing back against imagined incessant out-group incursions from cityfolk/liberals who hate America.
So this doesn't feel dated to me and if we keep treading water the way we have been it won't feel any more dated 10 years from now.
posted by seraphine at 11:15 PM on April 6 [8 favorites]
So this doesn't feel dated to me and if we keep treading water the way we have been it won't feel any more dated 10 years from now.
posted by seraphine at 11:15 PM on April 6 [8 favorites]
Man, I love Willie Nelson. Y'all going on about how old Willie is - he's exactly as young as we need him to be and exactly as old as he needs to be. Which is to say: young enough to say the things that need to be said and old enough to not give a damn what anybody thinks of that.
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:22 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
posted by JustSayNoDawg at 7:22 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
Thanks for this post, rubatan. This video came across my feed yesterday and I was kinda chewing on the sentiment "what was radical then is reactionary now" - though not as well put as PinkMoose phrases it. It was nice to find this discussion here.
It's funny to think about the ways that in the last 20-odd years the wild and rule-breaking qualities of queerness have been domesticated and normalized. Might be showing my age but there's a part of me that still blames Will and Grace.
In local circles I'm trying to popularize the Carter Family's "Buddies in the Saddle" as an old gay cowboy love song.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 2:33 PM on April 7
It's funny to think about the ways that in the last 20-odd years the wild and rule-breaking qualities of queerness have been domesticated and normalized. Might be showing my age but there's a part of me that still blames Will and Grace.
In local circles I'm trying to popularize the Carter Family's "Buddies in the Saddle" as an old gay cowboy love song.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 2:33 PM on April 7
Might be showing my age but there's a part of me that still blames Will and Grace.
Will & Grace premiered only about 3 weeks before Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in Wyoming. I think these two events happening so close together sort of primed the country to change its previously abusive and outright murderous views toward gay men.
I am entirely NOT a fan of Will & Grace, but I do recognize the important role it played in helping adjust the national attitude. I don't think it happened in a vacuum, however.
posted by hippybear at 3:38 PM on April 7
Will & Grace premiered only about 3 weeks before Matthew Shepard was beaten to death in Wyoming. I think these two events happening so close together sort of primed the country to change its previously abusive and outright murderous views toward gay men.
I am entirely NOT a fan of Will & Grace, but I do recognize the important role it played in helping adjust the national attitude. I don't think it happened in a vacuum, however.
posted by hippybear at 3:38 PM on April 7
Out Magazine: Orville Peck opens up about why he changed up his mask for the new Stampede era.
How did the collaboration come together?posted by Nelson at 6:51 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
It was his idea, that's the craziest part... Willie is such an activist and such an outlaw really. It was very deliberate on his part that he felt like it was an important song for us to do together, which is the coolest thing ever to hear.
Thanks for that Out interview. I'm glad I read that.
I think we're at a really interesting inflection point for country music. It's a genre I really haven't followed since the years when I thought it was fun so Garth and Reba and Kix Brooks with his squinty eyes and mustache... But I digress.
With Beyoncé and Fast Car and Orville and Flamy Grant... This might be a genre that is about to bust its own culture wide open in a way that the bros who are currently charge won't be prepared for.
That's my wish, anyway.
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on April 8
I think we're at a really interesting inflection point for country music. It's a genre I really haven't followed since the years when I thought it was fun so Garth and Reba and Kix Brooks with his squinty eyes and mustache... But I digress.
With Beyoncé and Fast Car and Orville and Flamy Grant... This might be a genre that is about to bust its own culture wide open in a way that the bros who are currently charge won't be prepared for.
That's my wish, anyway.
posted by hippybear at 1:54 PM on April 8
This was nice, thanks for sharing it! It's retro, but I feel like in 2024 - and with this music video - it's less "isn't it funny" than "isn't this fun?" (I watched the 1981 one - very different vibe, and the new cover cut some lyrics too, which seems fine.) Willie Nelson looks like he's having a grand time.
The song starts from the point of 'sometimes a guy feels some kind of way about his buddy', and a confused young person could go a few different directions from there, so it seemed reasonable to me that it touched on sexual attraction and gender identity and gender presentation.
Also, "frequently secretly fond of each other" is brilliant lyrically.
Like hippybear, I'm noticing more country music these days that I'm interested in listening to, it's kinda cool. (And/or 'Americana', which sounds like country music to me but with different politics.)
posted by mersen at 5:58 PM on April 8
The song starts from the point of 'sometimes a guy feels some kind of way about his buddy', and a confused young person could go a few different directions from there, so it seemed reasonable to me that it touched on sexual attraction and gender identity and gender presentation.
Also, "frequently secretly fond of each other" is brilliant lyrically.
Like hippybear, I'm noticing more country music these days that I'm interested in listening to, it's kinda cool. (And/or 'Americana', which sounds like country music to me but with different politics.)
posted by mersen at 5:58 PM on April 8
(And/or 'Americana', which sounds like country music to me but with different politics.)
One of my favoritest bands of all time is Carbon Leaf who are a lot of things -- celtic rock, folk, pop/rock, Americana... but they are basically NEVER country. Even when they try to go country, they don't quite get there. I'm okay with that.
posted by hippybear at 6:06 PM on April 8
One of my favoritest bands of all time is Carbon Leaf who are a lot of things -- celtic rock, folk, pop/rock, Americana... but they are basically NEVER country. Even when they try to go country, they don't quite get there. I'm okay with that.
posted by hippybear at 6:06 PM on April 8
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