Smallest measure of ordinary care
April 9, 2024 11:01 AM Subscribe
Jennifer and James Crumbley, parents of Michigan school shooter, sentenced to 10 to 15 years for manslaughter "Parents are not expected to be psychic, but these convictions are not about poor parenting. These convictions confirm repeated acts, or lack of acts, that could have halted an oncoming runaway train -- about repeatedly ignoring things that would make a reasonable person feel the hair on the back of their neck" (Judge) Matthews said.
They bought their son the gun, they didn't adequately secure the gun, and the gun was used in a shooting. That would have been enough for me.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:15 AM on April 9 [44 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:15 AM on April 9 [44 favorites]
The assessment I've seen with this case is that while there is the potential for abuse with holding parents accountable for the criminal acts of their kids - in this case, holy fuck did these two aid and abet their son's murder spree.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:22 AM on April 9 [32 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:22 AM on April 9 [32 favorites]
Since the conservative view is that parents should have complete dominion over their children I think it's only fitting that they should have complete responsibility for their children's actions as well.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:33 AM on April 9 [101 favorites]
posted by RonButNotStupid at 11:33 AM on April 9 [101 favorites]
Good.
posted by sammyo at 12:00 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 12:00 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
I watched some of the testimony in the first case (against the mom). I was very happy with the fact that these two were charged and with the fact that they were held accountable. It was pretty that the kid needed and wanted help. The parents seemed too busy with their own lives to bother. Then they made things worse by buying the kid a gun and failing to secure it. And, on the day of, they got called in because the kid had sketched some violent imagery, but they refused to take the kid home, and the school didn't make them. So the school will get sued, too, and will likely be held to some extent accountable. But there's plenty of blame to go around on this one. That doesn't absolve the parents of their responsibilities.
posted by wheat at 12:15 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
posted by wheat at 12:15 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Wow this is horrifying to me. The implications, in our extremely (the most in the world) carceral country, of criminally prosecuting parents for their children's crimes, are extremely distressing. Do you know the majority of youth convicted of violent crime come from socially oppressed conditions. DO you think all the parents who for structural reasons are unable to prevent their kids causing harm should be tossed in prison too?
On a personal level, I have a now adult child with a disability that caused depression, anxiety and poor impulse control when he was a teen. I would never give my child a gun, but I'm not so naïve as to think I am immune from being cursed by horrific things happening through chains of events I could not anticipate. When we see tragedy, we can choose to think nothing like that would ever happen to us because we're so fucking great - or we could say, there but for the grace of god go I.
Do you, gleefully celebrating incarceration of these parents, actually believe we can imprison our way out of the murder crisis we are in? Do you think the problem that's leading to school shootings is that we don't imprison enough parents??
There are literally people profiting off mass murder of kids. Prosecute those pieces of shit. Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US! This is a solvable problem and the solution lies with simply restricting companies from profiting off murder.
posted by latkes at 12:15 PM on April 9 [26 favorites]
On a personal level, I have a now adult child with a disability that caused depression, anxiety and poor impulse control when he was a teen. I would never give my child a gun, but I'm not so naïve as to think I am immune from being cursed by horrific things happening through chains of events I could not anticipate. When we see tragedy, we can choose to think nothing like that would ever happen to us because we're so fucking great - or we could say, there but for the grace of god go I.
Do you, gleefully celebrating incarceration of these parents, actually believe we can imprison our way out of the murder crisis we are in? Do you think the problem that's leading to school shootings is that we don't imprison enough parents??
There are literally people profiting off mass murder of kids. Prosecute those pieces of shit. Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US! This is a solvable problem and the solution lies with simply restricting companies from profiting off murder.
posted by latkes at 12:15 PM on April 9 [26 favorites]
These parents were extremely negligent, it's hard to see how this couldn't be a possible outcome of their actions, for me.
Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US!
This is not at all simple, unfortunately.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:29 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US!
This is not at all simple, unfortunately.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:29 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
Wow this is horrifying to me. The implications, in our extremely (the most in the world) carceral country, of criminally prosecuting parents for their children's crimes, are extremely distressing.
I don't think parents should automatically be held responsible for crimes committed by their children. But in this case, absolutely they should be.
Frankly, any parent who owns a gun and fails to secure it appropriately, especially with minor children around, should be held responsible for what happens as a result of this negligence.
And in this case, the parents explicitly bought this gun for him, failed to secure it, brushed off the school when the school presented clear evidence that the kid was distressed, the list goes on.
In this case, I feel like these parents are just as responsible if not more responsible for what their kid did. I have more concerns about sentencing a minor to life without parole than I do to giving these parents 10 to 15 years in jail.
I would never give my child a gun,.
But that's one of the central issues here! They gave their child a gun, they failed to secure that gun, and then when shown evidence that their child had violent fantasies (possibly suicidal in nature), they still didn't take any action.
That deserves to be prosecuted. And I agree, the US puts way too many people in jail. But in this case, I think it's the right call.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:31 PM on April 9 [71 favorites]
I don't think parents should automatically be held responsible for crimes committed by their children. But in this case, absolutely they should be.
Frankly, any parent who owns a gun and fails to secure it appropriately, especially with minor children around, should be held responsible for what happens as a result of this negligence.
And in this case, the parents explicitly bought this gun for him, failed to secure it, brushed off the school when the school presented clear evidence that the kid was distressed, the list goes on.
In this case, I feel like these parents are just as responsible if not more responsible for what their kid did. I have more concerns about sentencing a minor to life without parole than I do to giving these parents 10 to 15 years in jail.
I would never give my child a gun,.
But that's one of the central issues here! They gave their child a gun, they failed to secure that gun, and then when shown evidence that their child had violent fantasies (possibly suicidal in nature), they still didn't take any action.
That deserves to be prosecuted. And I agree, the US puts way too many people in jail. But in this case, I think it's the right call.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:31 PM on April 9 [71 favorites]
Or simply change the law so it's illegal to sell guns in the US!
I mean, if I had my fantasy wish list of changes the US would make, "not selling guns" would be right up there with "universal health insurance" and "forgive student debt/free higher education" and "legal abortions that are easily accessible to everyone in the country".
But not selling guns is probably the least likely of those things to ever come to pass, and that's really saying something.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:34 PM on April 9 [42 favorites]
I mean, if I had my fantasy wish list of changes the US would make, "not selling guns" would be right up there with "universal health insurance" and "forgive student debt/free higher education" and "legal abortions that are easily accessible to everyone in the country".
But not selling guns is probably the least likely of those things to ever come to pass, and that's really saying something.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:34 PM on April 9 [42 favorites]
Nah, I don't think this is justice. These parents weren't going to go on a shooting spree themselves. They're selfish, clueless shits, but going to jail isn't going to make them better people. And putting them in jail as a warning to others is absolutely not justice.
They should be diverted into restorative social work full time, to atone, and maybe learn something. Let 'em live in a dormitory, come and go as they please. And 35 hours a week they get to help fix the problems that other people like them cause.
That's justice.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:38 PM on April 9 [15 favorites]
They should be diverted into restorative social work full time, to atone, and maybe learn something. Let 'em live in a dormitory, come and go as they please. And 35 hours a week they get to help fix the problems that other people like them cause.
That's justice.
posted by seanmpuckett at 12:38 PM on April 9 [15 favorites]
Today is a start towards some kind of accountability, maybe. Next in prison should be the ones selling the guns used in gun massacres.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:47 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:47 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
Let 'em live in a dormitory, come and go as they please. And 35 hours a week they get to help fix the problems that other people like them cause.
If you could get free housing and a 35 hour work week out of it everyone would be out there committing manslaughter. There wouldn't be a safe corner in America!
Anyway, there's no stopping the manufacturers so the personal behavior has to be policed.
posted by kingdead at 12:48 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
If you could get free housing and a 35 hour work week out of it everyone would be out there committing manslaughter. There wouldn't be a safe corner in America!
Anyway, there's no stopping the manufacturers so the personal behavior has to be policed.
posted by kingdead at 12:48 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
I wonder how this will do on appeal.
seanmpuckett, as usual, nailed it.
The gun manufacturers and belligerent assholes have forced upon us a world of guns, violence, intentional cruelty and assholery. A world with limited health care for mentally ill people. Where children are slaughtered in schools while inept cops stand in the fucking hallway as it happens.
These parents are belligerent assholes who don't take any responsibility, just like the Orange Fascist former guy. They have a role model and a movement and every single part of that shares the blame. Being a belligerent jerk is embraced.
America really did once have some shining moments. Democracy, the Bill of Rights, are brilliant examples. We still wield tremendous financial and military power, and we are a mess. A mess championed and largely engineered and funded by a the very wealthy very extreme Right. This makes me long for the guillotine Rise the fuck up, even though it may be too late. America is collapsing and it's more dangerous than a hundred thousand Chernobyls and Fukushimas.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
seanmpuckett, as usual, nailed it.
The gun manufacturers and belligerent assholes have forced upon us a world of guns, violence, intentional cruelty and assholery. A world with limited health care for mentally ill people. Where children are slaughtered in schools while inept cops stand in the fucking hallway as it happens.
These parents are belligerent assholes who don't take any responsibility, just like the Orange Fascist former guy. They have a role model and a movement and every single part of that shares the blame. Being a belligerent jerk is embraced.
America really did once have some shining moments. Democracy, the Bill of Rights, are brilliant examples. We still wield tremendous financial and military power, and we are a mess. A mess championed and largely engineered and funded by a the very wealthy very extreme Right. This makes me long for the guillotine Rise the fuck up, even though it may be too late. America is collapsing and it's more dangerous than a hundred thousand Chernobyls and Fukushimas.
posted by theora55 at 12:53 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
from a Guardian article:
The couple had separate trials. Jurors heard how the teen had drawn a gun, a bullet and a gunshot victim on a math assignment, accompanied by grim phrases: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. My life is useless. Blood everywhere.”
Ethan told a counselor he was sad – a grandmother had died and his only friend suddenly had moved away. But he said the drawing only reflected his interest in creating video games.
The Crumbleys attended a meeting at the school that lasted less than 15 minutes. They did not mention that the gun resembled one James Crumbley, 47, had purchased just four days earlier – a Sig Sauer 9mm.
Ethan’s parents declined to take him home, choosing instead to return to work and accepting a list of mental health providers. School staff said Ethan could stay on campus. A counselor, Shawn Hopkins, said he believed it would be safer for the boy than possibly being alone at home.
No one, however, checked Ethan’s backpack. He pulled the gun out later that day and killed four students – Tate Myre, Hana St Juliana, Justin Shilling and Madisyn Baldwin – and wounded seven other people.
At the close of James Crumbley’s trial, the prosecutor Karen McDonald demonstrated how a cable lock, found in a package at home, could have secured the gun.
“Ten seconds,” she said, “of the easiest, simplest thing.”
I'm curious why the school didn't search his backpack and/or locker, although I am still comfortable blaming the parents here. I'm assuming the school didn't imagine he could have already had a weapon.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:58 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
The couple had separate trials. Jurors heard how the teen had drawn a gun, a bullet and a gunshot victim on a math assignment, accompanied by grim phrases: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. My life is useless. Blood everywhere.”
Ethan told a counselor he was sad – a grandmother had died and his only friend suddenly had moved away. But he said the drawing only reflected his interest in creating video games.
The Crumbleys attended a meeting at the school that lasted less than 15 minutes. They did not mention that the gun resembled one James Crumbley, 47, had purchased just four days earlier – a Sig Sauer 9mm.
Ethan’s parents declined to take him home, choosing instead to return to work and accepting a list of mental health providers. School staff said Ethan could stay on campus. A counselor, Shawn Hopkins, said he believed it would be safer for the boy than possibly being alone at home.
No one, however, checked Ethan’s backpack. He pulled the gun out later that day and killed four students – Tate Myre, Hana St Juliana, Justin Shilling and Madisyn Baldwin – and wounded seven other people.
At the close of James Crumbley’s trial, the prosecutor Karen McDonald demonstrated how a cable lock, found in a package at home, could have secured the gun.
“Ten seconds,” she said, “of the easiest, simplest thing.”
I'm curious why the school didn't search his backpack and/or locker, although I am still comfortable blaming the parents here. I'm assuming the school didn't imagine he could have already had a weapon.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:58 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
Neglectful parents should be called out, especially when their neglect results in their child murdering other children.
posted by luckynerd at 1:11 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
posted by luckynerd at 1:11 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
DO you think all the parents who for structural reasons are unable to prevent their kids causing harm should be tossed in prison too?
No, and just because you're flinging yourself down the slippery slope doesn't make the rest of us obliged to join you. Should we worry about the risk of parents being unjustly held accountable for their children's crimes? Of course - but the idea that it is impossible for them to be be accountable is an argumentam ad abusrdam. As many people have noted - in this specific case, the specific conduct of the parents did meet the standard of aiding and abetting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:14 PM on April 9 [45 favorites]
No, and just because you're flinging yourself down the slippery slope doesn't make the rest of us obliged to join you. Should we worry about the risk of parents being unjustly held accountable for their children's crimes? Of course - but the idea that it is impossible for them to be be accountable is an argumentam ad abusrdam. As many people have noted - in this specific case, the specific conduct of the parents did meet the standard of aiding and abetting.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:14 PM on April 9 [45 favorites]
Sometimes kids have physical ailments that, despite all reasonable efforts from their parents, result in death or serious injury. And sometimes kids have physical ailments that their parents ignore, neglecting to even attempt appropriate medical treatment, including going against multiple instances of professional advice in their inaction. The latter case is child neglect. Add in the parents doing something that they can reasonably be expected to know will exacerbate the health risk - like signing up a child with unmedicated epilepsy for driving lessons or gymnastics or something without disclosing the condition - and you have child endangerment.
Sometimes kids have mental ailments that, despite all reasonable efforts from their parents, result in death or serious injury. And sometimes kids have mental ailments that their parents ignore, neglecting to even attempt appropriate medical treatment, including going against multiple instances of professional advice in their inaction. The latter case is child neglect. Add in the parents doing something that they can reasonably be expected to know will exacerbate the health risk - like providing unsecured access to a gun to a child with depression and violent intrusive thoughts - and you have child (and others) endangerment.
Yes, our current laws are applied in highly racist and classist ways. But we already prosecute parents for child neglect or neglect with endangerment; this one fairly clear cut case isn’t going to shift the bar on that a huge amount. Arguing that it is a dangerous precedent sounds similar to many of the arguments that Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted or Republicans shouldn’t be opposed with political tools currently allowed in our governmental systems because then they’d use the same tools unfairly on Democrats. It’s already happening - the cows have already left the barn. Failing to enforce consequences for rich, conservative, white people only contributes further to extant inequities.
posted by eviemath at 1:28 PM on April 9 [26 favorites]
Sometimes kids have mental ailments that, despite all reasonable efforts from their parents, result in death or serious injury. And sometimes kids have mental ailments that their parents ignore, neglecting to even attempt appropriate medical treatment, including going against multiple instances of professional advice in their inaction. The latter case is child neglect. Add in the parents doing something that they can reasonably be expected to know will exacerbate the health risk - like providing unsecured access to a gun to a child with depression and violent intrusive thoughts - and you have child (and others) endangerment.
Yes, our current laws are applied in highly racist and classist ways. But we already prosecute parents for child neglect or neglect with endangerment; this one fairly clear cut case isn’t going to shift the bar on that a huge amount. Arguing that it is a dangerous precedent sounds similar to many of the arguments that Trump shouldn’t be prosecuted or Republicans shouldn’t be opposed with political tools currently allowed in our governmental systems because then they’d use the same tools unfairly on Democrats. It’s already happening - the cows have already left the barn. Failing to enforce consequences for rich, conservative, white people only contributes further to extant inequities.
posted by eviemath at 1:28 PM on April 9 [26 favorites]
Any time I hear about neglectful and abusive parents being held accountable for the damage they've done, I'm delighted. I hope that someday we find a way to bring justice to all abusive parents, well before they've done enough damage that their children hurt others. It's appalling what we let parents get away with.
posted by MrVisible at 1:30 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
posted by MrVisible at 1:30 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
I hate the whole situation and I hate that our only answer to this sort of thing is “prison!” but at the same time, since there really isn’t any other mechanism to hold people like these parents accountable, part of me is…not satisfied. Definitely not happy. I don’t know. If anybody has to go to prison in this country, I guess I’m more okay with these two than most?
Honestly their minor son who had asked for help for his mental health struggles serving life in prison feels worse to me. This whole awful story is just so much to sit with and think through.
posted by Suedeltica at 1:53 PM on April 9 [15 favorites]
Honestly their minor son who had asked for help for his mental health struggles serving life in prison feels worse to me. This whole awful story is just so much to sit with and think through.
posted by Suedeltica at 1:53 PM on April 9 [15 favorites]
Even if these parents are negligent assholes that I have little sympathy for, I think latkes' view has lots of merit. Criminalization of more and more behaviors always, always, always leads to people with less social power and resources (and in the US, Black people!) being criminalized and incarcerated. This is what history tells us in no uncertain terms. So however emotionally satisfying it is to see bad people go to jail, this is no solution at all.
The US has a horrible habit of trying to incarcerate its way out of every problem and it's disappointing, though unsurprising to see people cheering that on.
posted by lizard2590 at 1:58 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
The US has a horrible habit of trying to incarcerate its way out of every problem and it's disappointing, though unsurprising to see people cheering that on.
posted by lizard2590 at 1:58 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
Everything about this sucks. The murders (obviously), the parents, the reliance on prison as the only form of consequences available, how this precedent will likely be used in the future. I don't know that there was a better outcome available here, but that doesn't make this an outcome worth celebrating.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:31 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 2:31 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
Yeah, this isn't great in any way. I'm also fucking disgusted every time someone is brought up on trial and their whole lives are put under intense scrutiny. The mother in this case was "grilled" on having an extramarital affair during her trial.
But yeah, let's just make everyone criminally responsible for everything, you know corrupt cops and racist prosecutors aren't going to abuse having more power to put people behind bars. There's a big fucking danger in applauding decisions like this in cases where we don't like the defendants, we don't like the original crime, and we don't have much sympathy, but we keep just giving the people in power even more power, and in the next 99 cases, it's going to be used against the powerless.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:41 PM on April 9 [10 favorites]
But yeah, let's just make everyone criminally responsible for everything, you know corrupt cops and racist prosecutors aren't going to abuse having more power to put people behind bars. There's a big fucking danger in applauding decisions like this in cases where we don't like the defendants, we don't like the original crime, and we don't have much sympathy, but we keep just giving the people in power even more power, and in the next 99 cases, it's going to be used against the powerless.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:41 PM on April 9 [10 favorites]
The judge will also, apparently, soon make a decision on whether the parents are allowed to have any contact with the son, after already deciding father and son can not serve time in the same facility. Why no contact? This is a 15 year old kid with mental health issues, why the fuck would cutting off any contact with his family be beneficial to anyone?
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:42 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 2:42 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Everything about this sucks.
Yes it does. what a shit show with shitty people
I know criminal law varies between Canada and the U.S. it even varies state by state there
I was wondering about "involuntary manslaughter"
In Canada I think it would be criminal negligence causing death.
Criminal negligence
219 (1) Every one is criminally negligent who
(a) in doing anything, or
(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,
shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.
Definition of duty
(2) For the purposes of this section, duty means a duty imposed by law.
Causing death by criminal negligence
220 Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and
(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.
--the duty imposed by law would be to safely store the firearm, which they omitted to do, and to insure a disturbed minor child did not have access to it.
It's still debatable.
--
I wonder how this will do on appeal.
Yeah the judges instruction to the jury is a possible overreach.. I think latkes has a point here
The judge said that ;
Judge Cheryl Matthews defined the legal duty in this case when giving the jury their instructions.
“In Michigan, a parent has a legal duty to exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others or prevent the minor child from conducting themselves in a way that creates an unreasonable risk of bodily harm to others,” she said.
If either or both of these two theories are proven, that is “sufficient to establish the crime of involuntary manslaughter,” the judge said.
“It’s not necessary that you all agree on which theory has been proven. As long as you all agree that the prosecutor has to prove at least one of those theories beyond a reasonable doubt.”
==
How could they control their minor child when they are at work and the child is at school?
Your kid punches someone at recess and you did not control them?
posted by yyz at 3:17 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Yes it does. what a shit show with shitty people
I know criminal law varies between Canada and the U.S. it even varies state by state there
I was wondering about "involuntary manslaughter"
In Canada I think it would be criminal negligence causing death.
Criminal negligence
219 (1) Every one is criminally negligent who
(a) in doing anything, or
(b) in omitting to do anything that it is his duty to do,
shows wanton or reckless disregard for the lives or safety of other persons.
Definition of duty
(2) For the purposes of this section, duty means a duty imposed by law.
Causing death by criminal negligence
220 Every person who by criminal negligence causes death to another person is guilty of an indictable offence and liable
(a) where a firearm is used in the commission of the offence, to imprisonment for life and to a minimum punishment of imprisonment for a term of four years; and
(b) in any other case, to imprisonment for life.
--the duty imposed by law would be to safely store the firearm, which they omitted to do, and to insure a disturbed minor child did not have access to it.
It's still debatable.
--
I wonder how this will do on appeal.
Yeah the judges instruction to the jury is a possible overreach.. I think latkes has a point here
The judge said that ;
Judge Cheryl Matthews defined the legal duty in this case when giving the jury their instructions.
“In Michigan, a parent has a legal duty to exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others or prevent the minor child from conducting themselves in a way that creates an unreasonable risk of bodily harm to others,” she said.
If either or both of these two theories are proven, that is “sufficient to establish the crime of involuntary manslaughter,” the judge said.
“It’s not necessary that you all agree on which theory has been proven. As long as you all agree that the prosecutor has to prove at least one of those theories beyond a reasonable doubt.”
==
How could they control their minor child when they are at work and the child is at school?
Your kid punches someone at recess and you did not control them?
posted by yyz at 3:17 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
You give them a gun?
Same as a recess fight...
posted by Windopaene at 3:22 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
Same as a recess fight...
posted by Windopaene at 3:22 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
It’s bad enough that the parents didn’t go home with the kid when they were called into school because they or the school were afraid that he might harm someone else, but imagine how impossibly shitty it is that they cared so little about their kid’s suicidal ideations that they couldn’t be bothered to take the day off work to go home with him and show him some care.
posted by bendy at 3:22 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
posted by bendy at 3:22 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
You give them a gun?
I agree that you have responsibility for that weapon.
A duty to ensure it's safe use and storage.
What I have some problem with is
a legal duty to exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others
How do you exercise control? over a teenager from a distance ?
posted by yyz at 3:38 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I agree that you have responsibility for that weapon.
A duty to ensure it's safe use and storage.
What I have some problem with is
a legal duty to exercise reasonable care to control their minor child so as to prevent the minor child from intentionally harming others
How do you exercise control? over a teenager from a distance ?
posted by yyz at 3:38 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
You definitely don't give them free access to a gun at any time.
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:43 PM on April 9 [42 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 3:43 PM on April 9 [42 favorites]
This is hardly the first case of parents being held liable for their child's actions. Robert Crimo did a plea bargain rather than face felony charges regarding his son, Robert Crio III who killed 7 and injured 48 people at the Highland Park 4th Of July parade in 2022. I recall but can't locate parents facing charges after very young children accessed handguns and shot siblings/friends. And of course parents have been legally charged with crimes for their child's truancy or other crimes for years, though not all laws have stood under actual trial.
posted by beaning at 3:49 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
posted by beaning at 3:49 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
Criminalization of more and more behaviors
This conviction did not involve a new law, nor a previously-undreamed-of extension of prior laws. It does not even set any sort of binding legal precedent (though, if the decision is appealed and affirmed on certain grounds, it might, for Michigan only). So it is not "criminalization" of previously noncriminal behavior.
In this case, we are looking at extreme facts resulting in the worst possible harm. It's a good fact pattern for application of existing law. And, well, if you think there were racist prosecutors who were going to unfairly prosecute minority parents but were holding off until now for lack of a white couple's getting convicted...
I almost never "cheer" anyone going to jail, and one can't cheer anything whatsoever about this tragic scenario, but the Crumbleys are the kind of people who think themselves immune to consequences. If a few of their peers actually hesitate over giving their suicidal kids assault weapons for Christmas because they remember this story, it's a good thing--and, unlike for many types of crimes, I think this sort of deterrence might actually occur.
posted by praemunire at 3:50 PM on April 9 [45 favorites]
This conviction did not involve a new law, nor a previously-undreamed-of extension of prior laws. It does not even set any sort of binding legal precedent (though, if the decision is appealed and affirmed on certain grounds, it might, for Michigan only). So it is not "criminalization" of previously noncriminal behavior.
In this case, we are looking at extreme facts resulting in the worst possible harm. It's a good fact pattern for application of existing law. And, well, if you think there were racist prosecutors who were going to unfairly prosecute minority parents but were holding off until now for lack of a white couple's getting convicted...
I almost never "cheer" anyone going to jail, and one can't cheer anything whatsoever about this tragic scenario, but the Crumbleys are the kind of people who think themselves immune to consequences. If a few of their peers actually hesitate over giving their suicidal kids assault weapons for Christmas because they remember this story, it's a good thing--and, unlike for many types of crimes, I think this sort of deterrence might actually occur.
posted by praemunire at 3:50 PM on April 9 [45 favorites]
(On a side note, the affair evidence was weird and seems to have reflected defense incompetence and if the mother gets off on anything on appeal, it might be that, and that perhaps rightfully.)
posted by praemunire at 3:51 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 3:51 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
How could they control their minor child when they are at work and the child is at school?
Your kid punches someone at recess and you did not control them?
Among the many things that the two parents did, one was to refuse to remove their child from the school after the school asked them to in light of his making credible threats towards others.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:55 PM on April 9 [14 favorites]
Your kid punches someone at recess and you did not control them?
Among the many things that the two parents did, one was to refuse to remove their child from the school after the school asked them to in light of his making credible threats towards others.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:55 PM on April 9 [14 favorites]
I also had a kid with mental health troubles as a teen and I did not give him a gun. I wouldn't even give him a BB gun, let alone a Sig Sauer - I mean, come on people, that is not, like, a fun little squirrel hunting rifle for country kids. That is a handgun, an automatic handgun, that has no use other than to shoot people. Letting a 15 year old even handle it outside a well supervised shooting range is completely insane. These people are not just negligent, they are abusive and as such, they deserve consequences. As does their child, because they are also at fault, but the parents share most fully in that blame.
I really hate the American carceral system. I have a family member who was in and out of it for years and it was horrifying. I have nothing good to say. It needs, like so much, to be torn down and the ground salted and a new way forward found. I don't cheer for anyone to go to jail. But I hate neglectful abusive parents even more than I hate jails and that is exactly what we are looking at here. These are nightmare people and the only tool we have right now for them to face consequences for their actions is the prison industrial complex.
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:05 PM on April 9 [35 favorites]
I really hate the American carceral system. I have a family member who was in and out of it for years and it was horrifying. I have nothing good to say. It needs, like so much, to be torn down and the ground salted and a new way forward found. I don't cheer for anyone to go to jail. But I hate neglectful abusive parents even more than I hate jails and that is exactly what we are looking at here. These are nightmare people and the only tool we have right now for them to face consequences for their actions is the prison industrial complex.
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:05 PM on April 9 [35 favorites]
Oh and let me just add that when I am the Evil Overlord of the Galaxy all the damn guns will be outlawed. In the meantime, I will continue to do my tiny, ineffective, futile part by politely asking my unimpressed legislators for sane gun control regulations.
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:09 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
posted by mygothlaundry at 4:09 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
BTW, lawsuits against the school were dropped more than a year ago, because the judge found the schools and the school staff had immunity.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:37 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:37 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
School shootings, and mass shootings broadly, have damaged America in too many ways to count. I’m so glad to see this news.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:11 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:11 PM on April 9 [4 favorites]
This feels more like buying a gun for someone who is clearly ineligible to have a gun and paying for the consequences vs a huge new overreach.
posted by Ferreous at 5:22 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 5:22 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
On reflection, a further comment—
It is outrageous, ridiculous, irresponsible, and wildly out of touch with reality to respond to this news with any of:
“I hate prisons”
“There was sexism in the courtroom”
“This could be a slippery slope”
“In my fantasyland, this doesn’t happen”
“We should outlaw guns”
Please be serious. The hand wringing here is horrifying. Go to a mass shooting memorial and tell it to the parents and the family and the friends and the coworkers and the neighbors. See how fucking far you get.
The appropriate response to this news is “good, but harder next time.” If you think otherwise, do imagine people you know being gunned down by a kid, and then hearing a bunch of internet strangers wave their hands about the injustice of the situation faced by the killer and his enablers.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:33 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
It is outrageous, ridiculous, irresponsible, and wildly out of touch with reality to respond to this news with any of:
“I hate prisons”
“There was sexism in the courtroom”
“This could be a slippery slope”
“In my fantasyland, this doesn’t happen”
“We should outlaw guns”
Please be serious. The hand wringing here is horrifying. Go to a mass shooting memorial and tell it to the parents and the family and the friends and the coworkers and the neighbors. See how fucking far you get.
The appropriate response to this news is “good, but harder next time.” If you think otherwise, do imagine people you know being gunned down by a kid, and then hearing a bunch of internet strangers wave their hands about the injustice of the situation faced by the killer and his enablers.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:33 PM on April 9 [19 favorites]
Please be serious. The hand wringing here is horrifying. Go to a mass shooting memorial and tell it to the parents and the family and the friends and the coworkers and the neighbors. See how fucking far you get.
This is why we absolutely don't do that. We don't let the victims or the victims' families set the harshness of the punishment. And your insinuation that if we just punished the perpetrators hard enough, then school shootings wouldn't happen, is the GOP and the NRA's exact talking point, because it detracts from the actual reason that the US has many, many school shootings while other countries have practically none: It's the guns.
It's also been shown time and time again that harsher punishments do not deter crime. In fact, the harsher they get, the less the effect is, so, it's pretty effective to deter a crime to punish it by putting someone in prison for a few years, but increasing that punishment doesn't do much to deter the crime any more.
I would be horrified if people I knew were gunned down by a kid, but it certainly wouldn't make me go out and campaign for harsher punishments. In fact, I'm willing to bet that school shootings, being in many cases acts of desperation/pleas for help, or committed by kids who have mental problems, are probably the crimes least likely to be deterred by harsher punishments.
"Good, but harder next time" is macho John Wayne posturing that does absolutely nothing, except maybe make you feel better.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:49 PM on April 9 [22 favorites]
This is why we absolutely don't do that. We don't let the victims or the victims' families set the harshness of the punishment. And your insinuation that if we just punished the perpetrators hard enough, then school shootings wouldn't happen, is the GOP and the NRA's exact talking point, because it detracts from the actual reason that the US has many, many school shootings while other countries have practically none: It's the guns.
It's also been shown time and time again that harsher punishments do not deter crime. In fact, the harsher they get, the less the effect is, so, it's pretty effective to deter a crime to punish it by putting someone in prison for a few years, but increasing that punishment doesn't do much to deter the crime any more.
I would be horrified if people I knew were gunned down by a kid, but it certainly wouldn't make me go out and campaign for harsher punishments. In fact, I'm willing to bet that school shootings, being in many cases acts of desperation/pleas for help, or committed by kids who have mental problems, are probably the crimes least likely to be deterred by harsher punishments.
"Good, but harder next time" is macho John Wayne posturing that does absolutely nothing, except maybe make you feel better.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:49 PM on April 9 [22 favorites]
Perhaps it does, perhaps it doesn’t! I, too, am an unrealistic person who would like to see the U.S. radically decrease the firepower on the street here every day, adopt actual restorative justice practices, and I’m (reasonably) well aware of the research on punishment & deterring crime. What I also am is, per The Onion and everyone else, appalled that this continues to happen here and a persistent deadlock in making any progress on it. This feels, to me, like a step toward a possible decrease in mass shootings that doesn’t involve toddlers wearing Kevlar backpacks, or whatever realistic, nonsensical-but-maybe-not horrible “solutions” we’ve been trying lately.
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:59 PM on April 9
posted by cupcakeninja at 5:59 PM on April 9
It's the guns
I don’t disagree, at all, I just don’t see a lot of progress happening there right now. My nearest grocery store, 5-25% of customers are carrying. Changing culture is hard.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:03 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
I don’t disagree, at all, I just don’t see a lot of progress happening there right now. My nearest grocery store, 5-25% of customers are carrying. Changing culture is hard.
posted by cupcakeninja at 6:03 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
...or we could say, there but for the grace of god go I.
The in-laws' kids were raised in the Mormon church, church every Sunday, tons of classes, meetings and group functions throughout the week, sports, music, and other recreational events constantly. They were/are good parents that did many, many things right. Our kids were raised heathens, and we skew toward dysfunctional on the parenting scale. But our kids are OK, hanging on, actually productive members of society. Out of the in-laws fairly large bunch that were church indoctrinated, there's a couple felons, a couple with major drug/alcohol addictions, two that have lost their kids not being fit parents, some unemployed, one or two that would be homeless if not for family. The parental units did so many things right, and it grieves them horribly. Even their 'successful' kids divorcing hurts them. Eh, mine are divorced, whatevers. Believe me, I think, "there but for the grace of dog go I."
Lots of parents try so, so hard, and shit happens with their kids anyway. Just usually not to this extent. But I don't think these people even tried. Some people are just too unaware, selfish, and stupid to have kids. They've got a crapton of opinions, but no common sense.
It doesn't bother me that they will be incarcerated. Maybe it will slap some sense into them. I'd prefer part punishment by incarceration and part education by community service, but I've worked in the community service area, and sometimes it just doesn't take. Either it's a soft option that benefits no one, or it's an actual job that should be eye-opening to the those serving, but they just can't grasp the concept of empathy to others. Again, if you aren't self-aware enough to see that your own child is suffering in front of you and too damn selfish to do anything about it, I doubt if any community service and education is going to stick. It would just be more cause for their resentment toward life.
As far as their being separated from their son, I wonder if it's not for the best. Uncaring parents can be a major source of pain to their children. We like to think that kids NEED their parents, and that a parent's love can heal, but some parents are just flat out poisonous. I can see a scenario in which their anger and resentment towards him just continue to damage him further. Maybe he asked to go no contact? I don't know what the judge was thinking, but I can sort of see the point.
As far as the mom's extra-marital affair. Who she screws is her own business. Except not. If you're in a marriage with a kid, your concern should be that marriage and that kid. If you screw around when you're married, that makes for a toxic environment to raise a kid in. If she were divorced, I would say what she does in bed is immaterial. But for both of them, their actions and behaviors were incredibly selfish. What takes the cake for me is their doubling down and their lack of awareness for all the hurt they've caused.
Back to beating my drum: We need more education on what it means to actually raise a child, and free birth control everywhere. If I saw pills and condoms handed out on every street corner, I'd still think there needs to be more available. It's OK for people not to reproduce. Women don't need a child 'to fulfill them' and men don't need to 'prove their virility." Vasectomies prove you're a mensch. And abortions are health care. Woman's autonomy. We needs it.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:23 PM on April 9 [17 favorites]
The in-laws' kids were raised in the Mormon church, church every Sunday, tons of classes, meetings and group functions throughout the week, sports, music, and other recreational events constantly. They were/are good parents that did many, many things right. Our kids were raised heathens, and we skew toward dysfunctional on the parenting scale. But our kids are OK, hanging on, actually productive members of society. Out of the in-laws fairly large bunch that were church indoctrinated, there's a couple felons, a couple with major drug/alcohol addictions, two that have lost their kids not being fit parents, some unemployed, one or two that would be homeless if not for family. The parental units did so many things right, and it grieves them horribly. Even their 'successful' kids divorcing hurts them. Eh, mine are divorced, whatevers. Believe me, I think, "there but for the grace of dog go I."
Lots of parents try so, so hard, and shit happens with their kids anyway. Just usually not to this extent. But I don't think these people even tried. Some people are just too unaware, selfish, and stupid to have kids. They've got a crapton of opinions, but no common sense.
It doesn't bother me that they will be incarcerated. Maybe it will slap some sense into them. I'd prefer part punishment by incarceration and part education by community service, but I've worked in the community service area, and sometimes it just doesn't take. Either it's a soft option that benefits no one, or it's an actual job that should be eye-opening to the those serving, but they just can't grasp the concept of empathy to others. Again, if you aren't self-aware enough to see that your own child is suffering in front of you and too damn selfish to do anything about it, I doubt if any community service and education is going to stick. It would just be more cause for their resentment toward life.
As far as their being separated from their son, I wonder if it's not for the best. Uncaring parents can be a major source of pain to their children. We like to think that kids NEED their parents, and that a parent's love can heal, but some parents are just flat out poisonous. I can see a scenario in which their anger and resentment towards him just continue to damage him further. Maybe he asked to go no contact? I don't know what the judge was thinking, but I can sort of see the point.
As far as the mom's extra-marital affair. Who she screws is her own business. Except not. If you're in a marriage with a kid, your concern should be that marriage and that kid. If you screw around when you're married, that makes for a toxic environment to raise a kid in. If she were divorced, I would say what she does in bed is immaterial. But for both of them, their actions and behaviors were incredibly selfish. What takes the cake for me is their doubling down and their lack of awareness for all the hurt they've caused.
Back to beating my drum: We need more education on what it means to actually raise a child, and free birth control everywhere. If I saw pills and condoms handed out on every street corner, I'd still think there needs to be more available. It's OK for people not to reproduce. Women don't need a child 'to fulfill them' and men don't need to 'prove their virility." Vasectomies prove you're a mensch. And abortions are health care. Woman's autonomy. We needs it.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:23 PM on April 9 [17 favorites]
The appropriate response to this news is “good, but harder next time.”
Every response to this has to start with finally making gun owners and everyone involved in the chain of manufacturing and sale of guns accountable.
These weapons don't come out of thin air, and people don't get shot unless a gun owner is involved, where an arms dealer sells that gun, and where a weapons manufacturer makes that gun.
Everyone along this chain of death has to be held culpable for their part in massacres. My hope is that today's outcome, so unexpected that it got breaking front page coverage in a paper of record, is a start towards that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:28 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
Every response to this has to start with finally making gun owners and everyone involved in the chain of manufacturing and sale of guns accountable.
These weapons don't come out of thin air, and people don't get shot unless a gun owner is involved, where an arms dealer sells that gun, and where a weapons manufacturer makes that gun.
Everyone along this chain of death has to be held culpable for their part in massacres. My hope is that today's outcome, so unexpected that it got breaking front page coverage in a paper of record, is a start towards that.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:28 PM on April 9 [8 favorites]
According to Vox, these people. Illegally. Bought a gun. For a 15 year old. Who was begging for help and seeing demons and ghosts. The child absolutely should not go to prison. He needs lithium, therapy and help. I honestly think he's the least to blame here, school, society, parents and gun sellers included.
The parents? I'd be thrilled if jail didn't exist, but it does and these people deserve to be there. Ignored a mental health crisis. Provided a dangerous weapon to said minor in crisis, who was too young to legally own the gun. If he had a bunch of DUI, and they gave him a car, they are just as liable.
posted by Jacen at 6:33 PM on April 9 [30 favorites]
The parents? I'd be thrilled if jail didn't exist, but it does and these people deserve to be there. Ignored a mental health crisis. Provided a dangerous weapon to said minor in crisis, who was too young to legally own the gun. If he had a bunch of DUI, and they gave him a car, they are just as liable.
posted by Jacen at 6:33 PM on April 9 [30 favorites]
We can’t talk meaningfully about gun control until we can have an honest conversation about the people who are bound but not served by police and government — the poor in general and nonwhite poor in specific. If systems force you to live outside the mainstream economy and society, you pregnant have a gun because laws and police are unlikely to help you, and are more likely to act against you.
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:41 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:41 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
These parents are obviously culpable in a very real way for the harm done to their son, and his victims, and their families. In a better world, his mental illness and their neglect could be addressed in a way that actually makes things better and brings some healing to the people harmed and growth and atonement to those responsible.
As it is, a mentally ill child being locked up the rest of his life, and the parents being put into the US carceral system doesn't do anything but compound the tragedy.
The parents are contemptible, and some ugly part of me wants to watch them suffer. But that is just the human desire for vengeance. It has nothing to do with what is good for anyone involved.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:09 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
As it is, a mentally ill child being locked up the rest of his life, and the parents being put into the US carceral system doesn't do anything but compound the tragedy.
The parents are contemptible, and some ugly part of me wants to watch them suffer. But that is just the human desire for vengeance. It has nothing to do with what is good for anyone involved.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 7:09 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
why does a child need a handgun
why does a child need a handgun
why does a child need a handgun
I'd ask the parents but they bought him a handgun.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on April 9 [18 favorites]
why does a child need a handgun
why does a child need a handgun
I'd ask the parents but they bought him a handgun.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 PM on April 9 [18 favorites]
My nearest grocery store, 5-25% of customers are carrying.
Wow, this is indeed horrifying. What a shockingly violent society we live in. Curious where this is?
posted by latkes at 7:20 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Wow, this is indeed horrifying. What a shockingly violent society we live in. Curious where this is?
posted by latkes at 7:20 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Didn't see that. Wow.
Open carrying? Profile suggests Virginia. Wow.
We are so fucked with this gun shit.
posted by Windopaene at 7:24 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
Open carrying? Profile suggests Virginia. Wow.
We are so fucked with this gun shit.
posted by Windopaene at 7:24 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
It doesn't feel like guns themselves have been the problem for a while now, more that the "gun culture" garbage that's driving the bus here. The whole bullshit narrative that gets pushed into the people who have a hard time thinking for themselves. Why the gun manufacturers and others involved in the production of these deadly weapons and foisting them on the aforementioned people as some sort of cult talisman is pretty frightening.
To be clear, I am in no way pro gun. If I could get rid of all the guns myself, I'd do it without hesitation. Yet I can't ignore the logistical fact that there are at least 300,000,000 guns in this country. I mean sure, buybacks work sometimes but I can't imagine a world where we somehow get rid of even a two digit percentage of them without some sort of radical change in the country and how it's run.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised that they were found guilty at all, given the %98 of the other utterly negligent cases resulting in child fatalities that have hit a courtroom. At least someone actually involved got held accountable, right? That's a step in the right direction at least.
posted by Sphinx at 7:35 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
To be clear, I am in no way pro gun. If I could get rid of all the guns myself, I'd do it without hesitation. Yet I can't ignore the logistical fact that there are at least 300,000,000 guns in this country. I mean sure, buybacks work sometimes but I can't imagine a world where we somehow get rid of even a two digit percentage of them without some sort of radical change in the country and how it's run.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised that they were found guilty at all, given the %98 of the other utterly negligent cases resulting in child fatalities that have hit a courtroom. At least someone actually involved got held accountable, right? That's a step in the right direction at least.
posted by Sphinx at 7:35 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
do imagine people you know being gunned down by a kid, and then hearing a bunch of internet strangers wave their hands about the injustice of the situation faced by the killer and his enablers.
If I am gunned down by a kid, I will expect every one of my loved ones to turn up at the trial to testify that I was unalterably opposed to life sentences for juveniles. Justice isn't about satisfying the yearnings for retribution of (some) people who've lost their loved ones. If that was all that was going on here, I would consider the Crumbleys' sentences unjust.
If you're in a marriage with a kid, your concern should be that marriage and that kid. If you screw around when you're married, that makes for a toxic environment to raise a kid in.
(a) citation needed
(b) Even if true, this still doesn't amount to negligence.
posted by praemunire at 7:56 PM on April 9 [14 favorites]
If I am gunned down by a kid, I will expect every one of my loved ones to turn up at the trial to testify that I was unalterably opposed to life sentences for juveniles. Justice isn't about satisfying the yearnings for retribution of (some) people who've lost their loved ones. If that was all that was going on here, I would consider the Crumbleys' sentences unjust.
If you're in a marriage with a kid, your concern should be that marriage and that kid. If you screw around when you're married, that makes for a toxic environment to raise a kid in.
(a) citation needed
(b) Even if true, this still doesn't amount to negligence.
posted by praemunire at 7:56 PM on April 9 [14 favorites]
I'm also fucking disgusted every time someone is brought up on trial and their whole lives are put under intense scrutiny. The mother in this case was "grilled" on having an extramarital affair during her trial.
Not from TFA, but linked on that page:
“Meloche [her affair partner] testified Wednesday that Jennifer Crumbley had told him she was able to leave work to meet up with him even though she allegedly told school officials on the day of the shooting that she could not take her son home or for mental health care that day because she needed to return to work.”
“Meloche said he regularly deleted the messages between himself and Jennifer Crumbley. He testified that one of the deleted texts from her -- sent on the day of the shooting -- said that the gun was gone. He responded, telling her to contact police.”
In this case, the affair seems relevant.
posted by bluloo at 8:04 PM on April 9 [28 favorites]
Not from TFA, but linked on that page:
“Meloche [her affair partner] testified Wednesday that Jennifer Crumbley had told him she was able to leave work to meet up with him even though she allegedly told school officials on the day of the shooting that she could not take her son home or for mental health care that day because she needed to return to work.”
“Meloche said he regularly deleted the messages between himself and Jennifer Crumbley. He testified that one of the deleted texts from her -- sent on the day of the shooting -- said that the gun was gone. He responded, telling her to contact police.”
In this case, the affair seems relevant.
posted by bluloo at 8:04 PM on April 9 [28 favorites]
We were in Uvalde, Texas yesterday and stopped at Robb Elementary. It was the afternoon after the eclipse, in the totality zone, so there were a lot of people there from all over the US.. Generally, people were silent.
I was struck by the fact that the building (now vacant) is EXACTLY like the elementary school I attended 50 years ago. I just kept thinking "This could happen anywhere." Which is does--anywhere and everywhere.
posted by neuron at 8:07 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
I was struck by the fact that the building (now vacant) is EXACTLY like the elementary school I attended 50 years ago. I just kept thinking "This could happen anywhere." Which is does--anywhere and everywhere.
posted by neuron at 8:07 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
DO you think all the parents who for structural reasons are unable to prevent their kids causing harm should be tossed in prison too?
To be fair, it costs a lot less to train an adult slave than a juvenile.
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
To be fair, it costs a lot less to train an adult slave than a juvenile.
posted by flabdablet at 8:09 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
making … everyone involved in the chain of manufacturing and sale of guns accountable.
I still maintain that the most effective route forward is massive restrictions/taxes on ammo — your dumb-ass Constitution doesn’t say shit about ammo.
…and ammo expires, unless you’re doing dry nitrogen storage and also know wtf you’re doing, which precious few gun idiots do, so the rules begin to enforce themselves. A 75yr old gun can still work; 75yr old ammo is a pile of crumbling oxides.
posted by aramaic at 8:22 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
I still maintain that the most effective route forward is massive restrictions/taxes on ammo — your dumb-ass Constitution doesn’t say shit about ammo.
…and ammo expires, unless you’re doing dry nitrogen storage and also know wtf you’re doing, which precious few gun idiots do, so the rules begin to enforce themselves. A 75yr old gun can still work; 75yr old ammo is a pile of crumbling oxides.
posted by aramaic at 8:22 PM on April 9 [11 favorites]
it's pretty effective to deter a crime to punish it by putting someone in prison for a few years, but increasing that punishment doesn't do much to deter the crime any moreThere's a distinction between deterrence and denunciation, both principles of sentencing. It's impossible to deter people like this child, by prison or by any punishment, for reasons that are grimly clear. But denouncing his crime, and the real crimes of his parents, is important too. Since the United States refuses otherwise to denounce (or punish) any of the enormities of its culture of gun ownership, for example, the act of giving a child a gun, something that in other societies with different laws is an incredibly serious crime in its own right, all that's left is carcerality after the fact.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 8:47 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
odd, before covid I could hardly go a day without seeing when someone strapped. I think people are into the more conceal now.
people openly carrying handguns should bother me but it really doesn't.
tax ammunition sounds like a good idea like taxing cigarettes cuz we know Michigan was one of the last states to have tax stamps on their cigarettes you wouldn't believe the amount of cheap smokes you could get from North Carolina. fireworks from Ohio or exceptional marijuana from Canada. guess we just cut out the middle man.
if you over tax ammunition you just going to create a black market for example, Michigan has a high concentration of copper, lead, and Dow chemical.
posted by clavdivs at 8:52 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
people openly carrying handguns should bother me but it really doesn't.
tax ammunition sounds like a good idea like taxing cigarettes cuz we know Michigan was one of the last states to have tax stamps on their cigarettes you wouldn't believe the amount of cheap smokes you could get from North Carolina. fireworks from Ohio or exceptional marijuana from Canada. guess we just cut out the middle man.
if you over tax ammunition you just going to create a black market for example, Michigan has a high concentration of copper, lead, and Dow chemical.
posted by clavdivs at 8:52 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
The parents were not dealing effectively with their son's developing murder plans, that is for sure. They were in fact actively making the situation worse. Everything I learn about the parents makes me dislike the parents more. It doesn't exactly break my heart that they're going to do time. It feels very satisfying, in fact. And that's not good, that's bad. Because the hideous problem remains absolutely unsolved. Imprisoning family members of mass murderers may feel great but it does nothing to solve our mass murder problem.
It's pretty obvious: don't pack your house with unsecured guns if one of your offspring is showing signs they might shoot up their school. If you know your kid has access to guns and the school calls and says your kid is threatening gun violence and to please take him home, take a hint. But what if you're not capable of seeing that your in-home gun policy is bad or that your kid poses a danger? Very clearly these parents had no moment of clarity about any of this until it was too late. No conscious thought of, "Huh, looks like our child is going through something and is unstable, so buying him a gun or buying his father a gun and leaving it lying around where our kid can pick it up and put it in his backpack is a dangerous move that might result in our child shooting up the school and us going to prison for many years, maybe we should review." You can say they should have seen the signs, but relying on people who cannot see what is blazingly obvious to see what is blazingly obvious is not an effective strategy.
Parents should not be negligent. Jailing parents for negligence after their neglected child has committed a mass murder is an effective way to punish those parents. It is not an effective strategy for preventing parental negligence or mass murder, though. It doesn't solve the problem.
Ditto blaming the school. Perhaps the school should have insisted that the parents take the kid home. If the school even could somehow have forced the parents to take the kid home, it would have been very, very hard, given that the parents were these parents. That does appear to be schools' single tool: call the parent and try to make the parent see reason. Well, this school called and they tried and it didn't work. You can say the school should have done the very very hard to impossible thing and forced the parents to remove the child, but relying on schools to prevent mass murders by enacting a just-in-time policy of transferring custody of murderous juveniles to the juveniles' parents after the juveniles provide the school with handy visual aids to reveal that they're on the cusp of committing mass murder is a strategy that has been proven over and over to be ineffective. Many murderous juveniles don't tip their hands. Those who do can be cryptic. They might try, as this one did, to retract with a story about inventing a video game. And it's a very last-minute, very reactive as opposed to proactive, strategy. It relies on everything going exactly right with the timing. Blaming the school and punishing people at the school when schools' single, very crappy tool fails once again to prevent a mass murder is not an effective strategy for preventing mass murder.
Ditto blaming every adult child of an elderly parent who isn't successful at, whatever, God, the possibilities are so terrifying and so numerous. Child is unsuccessful, say, at getting a hoarder parent to deal with a hazardous house [house catches fire; parent dies; parent's pets die; neighboring houses are damaged; neighbors suffer trauma, injuries and losses; everybody says kid = negligent]; child is unable to prevent parent from forming relationships with elderscammers [parent signs over all assets to scammers and starves to death; everybody says kid = negligent]; child can't get the parent to give up the keys [parent plows Oldsmobile through church Easter egg hunt; 12 maimed toddlers; everybody says kid = negligent].
After needless death from causes that good social support might have prevented, punishing people who did not act to prevent the needless deaths may or may not be necessary, but it's not a solution to the problem of people dying needlessly for lack of social support. The solution to that problem is to supply the lacking social support. Social support can come from reliable government with robust and functioning social infrastructure (gun control, free health care including mental health treatment and social services). Or individuals and families can use personal wealth to attempt to DIY a social safety net that's just for themselves.
Whenever something horrible happens in the USA that almost never happens in, say, Denmark--places where everyone has access to social support necessities people need for basic health, safety, and happiness--there's frequently a person or people who are assigned culpability. Parents missed or ignored signs. Cops discover at the worst possible moment that they're not brave. People who "see something" don't "say something." Or they do say something, but because we are in a country with poor or absent public safety policies, there's nobody to say it to who has any power to do anything about the something and the person to whom the person who saw something goes to say something can do nothing at all with the information because guns are inexpensive and easy to get and mental health care and social support are prohibitively expensive/nonexistent.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:56 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
It's pretty obvious: don't pack your house with unsecured guns if one of your offspring is showing signs they might shoot up their school. If you know your kid has access to guns and the school calls and says your kid is threatening gun violence and to please take him home, take a hint. But what if you're not capable of seeing that your in-home gun policy is bad or that your kid poses a danger? Very clearly these parents had no moment of clarity about any of this until it was too late. No conscious thought of, "Huh, looks like our child is going through something and is unstable, so buying him a gun or buying his father a gun and leaving it lying around where our kid can pick it up and put it in his backpack is a dangerous move that might result in our child shooting up the school and us going to prison for many years, maybe we should review." You can say they should have seen the signs, but relying on people who cannot see what is blazingly obvious to see what is blazingly obvious is not an effective strategy.
Parents should not be negligent. Jailing parents for negligence after their neglected child has committed a mass murder is an effective way to punish those parents. It is not an effective strategy for preventing parental negligence or mass murder, though. It doesn't solve the problem.
Ditto blaming the school. Perhaps the school should have insisted that the parents take the kid home. If the school even could somehow have forced the parents to take the kid home, it would have been very, very hard, given that the parents were these parents. That does appear to be schools' single tool: call the parent and try to make the parent see reason. Well, this school called and they tried and it didn't work. You can say the school should have done the very very hard to impossible thing and forced the parents to remove the child, but relying on schools to prevent mass murders by enacting a just-in-time policy of transferring custody of murderous juveniles to the juveniles' parents after the juveniles provide the school with handy visual aids to reveal that they're on the cusp of committing mass murder is a strategy that has been proven over and over to be ineffective. Many murderous juveniles don't tip their hands. Those who do can be cryptic. They might try, as this one did, to retract with a story about inventing a video game. And it's a very last-minute, very reactive as opposed to proactive, strategy. It relies on everything going exactly right with the timing. Blaming the school and punishing people at the school when schools' single, very crappy tool fails once again to prevent a mass murder is not an effective strategy for preventing mass murder.
Ditto blaming every adult child of an elderly parent who isn't successful at, whatever, God, the possibilities are so terrifying and so numerous. Child is unsuccessful, say, at getting a hoarder parent to deal with a hazardous house [house catches fire; parent dies; parent's pets die; neighboring houses are damaged; neighbors suffer trauma, injuries and losses; everybody says kid = negligent]; child is unable to prevent parent from forming relationships with elderscammers [parent signs over all assets to scammers and starves to death; everybody says kid = negligent]; child can't get the parent to give up the keys [parent plows Oldsmobile through church Easter egg hunt; 12 maimed toddlers; everybody says kid = negligent].
After needless death from causes that good social support might have prevented, punishing people who did not act to prevent the needless deaths may or may not be necessary, but it's not a solution to the problem of people dying needlessly for lack of social support. The solution to that problem is to supply the lacking social support. Social support can come from reliable government with robust and functioning social infrastructure (gun control, free health care including mental health treatment and social services). Or individuals and families can use personal wealth to attempt to DIY a social safety net that's just for themselves.
Whenever something horrible happens in the USA that almost never happens in, say, Denmark--places where everyone has access to social support necessities people need for basic health, safety, and happiness--there's frequently a person or people who are assigned culpability. Parents missed or ignored signs. Cops discover at the worst possible moment that they're not brave. People who "see something" don't "say something." Or they do say something, but because we are in a country with poor or absent public safety policies, there's nobody to say it to who has any power to do anything about the something and the person to whom the person who saw something goes to say something can do nothing at all with the information because guns are inexpensive and easy to get and mental health care and social support are prohibitively expensive/nonexistent.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:56 PM on April 9 [7 favorites]
Whenever something horrible happens in the USA that almost never happens in, say, Denmark--places where everyone has access to social support
why is it that when people obviate about crime in America using comparisons to European countries that are quite successful do they leave out the fact that they manufacture and sell weapons.
why is it they always leave out the fact there's a little over 5 million people in Denmark. why is it the people drone on about exquisite social services which do reduce crime rate but offer no solutions other than government spending and the obvious chortle about social reform in progress under the guise of a measured response.
posted by clavdivs at 9:28 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
why is it that when people obviate about crime in America using comparisons to European countries that are quite successful do they leave out the fact that they manufacture and sell weapons.
why is it they always leave out the fact there's a little over 5 million people in Denmark. why is it the people drone on about exquisite social services which do reduce crime rate but offer no solutions other than government spending and the obvious chortle about social reform in progress under the guise of a measured response.
posted by clavdivs at 9:28 PM on April 9 [1 favorite]
and guns are not inexpensive well unless you buy them on the street and they trash anyways and have you seen the prices for ammunition roughly 50 cents around but my cost analysis you could buy an average AR-15 rifle with 500 rounds and that would pay for roughly 20 hours of mental health for a child in a private capacity.
posted by clavdivs at 9:31 PM on April 9
posted by clavdivs at 9:31 PM on April 9
Michigan has a high concentration of copper, lead, and Dow chemical.
I openly challenge you to build a functional round from First Principles (you pick the caliber, but you're gonna need to supply the gun b/c I'm not a Gun Freak and don't have any nowadays and also I don't want it to explode in my face so you gotta pull the trigger yourself), regardless of what state you're in. IME, Romania and Yugoslavia could barely manage, nevermind Cambodia. From the former, at minimum one out of ten misfired, more often like one out of eight. For Cambodia, shit, more like one out of six. You spent more time clearing jams than you did firing or loading.
Less than 1 out of ten thousand Gun Freaks could mill proper gunpowder without blowing up their house. 99.995% of Gun Freaks talking about hand-loading and other BS are using industrial supplies that would be taxed. Lemme know if you start scraping saltpeter off the walls of your cesspit, because I wanna stand there and laugh while you do it. You gonna build a wheel-lock while you're at it, really stick it to the Papists? People, even Gun Freak People, really do not understand the industrial supply chain involved; thinking everything is all 1750 and a decent ball mill will suffice (it will not).
...and buying from Canada? Don't be ridiculous.
Taxes, and ruthless enforcement of said taxes.
posted by aramaic at 9:47 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
I openly challenge you to build a functional round from First Principles (you pick the caliber, but you're gonna need to supply the gun b/c I'm not a Gun Freak and don't have any nowadays and also I don't want it to explode in my face so you gotta pull the trigger yourself), regardless of what state you're in. IME, Romania and Yugoslavia could barely manage, nevermind Cambodia. From the former, at minimum one out of ten misfired, more often like one out of eight. For Cambodia, shit, more like one out of six. You spent more time clearing jams than you did firing or loading.
Less than 1 out of ten thousand Gun Freaks could mill proper gunpowder without blowing up their house. 99.995% of Gun Freaks talking about hand-loading and other BS are using industrial supplies that would be taxed. Lemme know if you start scraping saltpeter off the walls of your cesspit, because I wanna stand there and laugh while you do it. You gonna build a wheel-lock while you're at it, really stick it to the Papists? People, even Gun Freak People, really do not understand the industrial supply chain involved; thinking everything is all 1750 and a decent ball mill will suffice (it will not).
...and buying from Canada? Don't be ridiculous.
Taxes, and ruthless enforcement of said taxes.
posted by aramaic at 9:47 PM on April 9 [12 favorites]
I think these two parents gave their son a gun and refused to do anything to stop him from using it — in fact they tacitly encouraged him to use it — in hopes that he would commit a major crime, be sentenced to a long jail term, and they would then be free of him for a long time if not forever.
I think these were calculated acts, and that things turned out pretty much the way they wanted them to turn out.
Right up to the point they were prosecuted.
They didn’t count on that.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
I think these were calculated acts, and that things turned out pretty much the way they wanted them to turn out.
Right up to the point they were prosecuted.
They didn’t count on that.
posted by jamjam at 9:53 PM on April 9 [5 favorites]
I openly challenge you to build a functional round from First Principles
what am I Eugene on the principles of science and guns. why would I need to do that when there's so many ammunition producers in Michigan.
hello Dow chemical, Midland Michigan highest PhD per capita in the country.
of course this doesn't preclude a bunch of chemists being able to make a functional round.
I can' support the reduction of arms sales but you have to start with the military culture, my God look at the violence embedded in America media alone it's enough to choke a f****** reindeer.
posted by clavdivs at 10:24 PM on April 9
what am I Eugene on the principles of science and guns. why would I need to do that when there's so many ammunition producers in Michigan.
hello Dow chemical, Midland Michigan highest PhD per capita in the country.
of course this doesn't preclude a bunch of chemists being able to make a functional round.
I can' support the reduction of arms sales but you have to start with the military culture, my God look at the violence embedded in America media alone it's enough to choke a f****** reindeer.
posted by clavdivs at 10:24 PM on April 9
why would I need to do that when there's so many ammunition producers in Michigan
…because it’s now federal $5/bullet ($1 for the lead, $2 for brass used or not, $2 for the gunpowder) or 20 years in jail for tax evasion, take your pick.
Just remember what Capone discovered, much to his dismay.
posted by aramaic at 10:59 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
…because it’s now federal $5/bullet ($1 for the lead, $2 for brass used or not, $2 for the gunpowder) or 20 years in jail for tax evasion, take your pick.
Just remember what Capone discovered, much to his dismay.
posted by aramaic at 10:59 PM on April 9 [3 favorites]
I'm irritable. apologies. it's a me thing than you thing which sounds rather like a late '80s pop album title.
posted by clavdivs at 11:00 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 11:00 PM on April 9 [2 favorites]
in hopes that he would commit a major crime, be sentenced to a long jail term, and they would then be free of him for a long time if not forever.
Well that observation gives me a physical reaction, if that is the case and is demonstrable/provable then they were seriously under sentenced.
posted by sammyo at 1:34 AM on April 10
Well that observation gives me a physical reaction, if that is the case and is demonstrable/provable then they were seriously under sentenced.
posted by sammyo at 1:34 AM on April 10
Wow, this is indeed horrifying. What a shockingly violent society we live in. Curious where this is?
Virginia. To be fair, I described the verging-on-rural grocery store I go to where people are the most gunned up, and it’s less so at urban or suburban grocery stores where I am. On the other hand, I was talking about degree of obviousness of open carry (thigh vs. hip holster, color of holster or pistol; associated paraphernalia; etc.). ~638,000 people in my state have concealed carry permits.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:47 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
Virginia. To be fair, I described the verging-on-rural grocery store I go to where people are the most gunned up, and it’s less so at urban or suburban grocery stores where I am. On the other hand, I was talking about degree of obviousness of open carry (thigh vs. hip holster, color of holster or pistol; associated paraphernalia; etc.). ~638,000 people in my state have concealed carry permits.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:47 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
~638,000 people in my state have concealed carry permits.
Jesus effing Christ
posted by Mogur at 4:31 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
Jesus effing Christ
posted by Mogur at 4:31 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
anymore no one asks me why i refuse to go to the us, despite being born there and having loads of friends and family there.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:51 AM on April 10 [5 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:51 AM on April 10 [5 favorites]
One of the scariest moments of my life was standing in line at a grocery store while the open-carrying guy in front of me started an argument over prices with the early twenty-something cashier. It ended up being resolved by a manager, but for a few brief moments I didn't know if I should anticipate running away, diving for cover, or tackling the guy.
Open carry is one of the most vile parts of gun culture. There's no reason for it other than to proudly display your capability of murdering everyone around you on a whim. It exists only so insecure assholes can wield the power of life or death over everyone else.
Fuck guns. Fuck gun culture. Everything about it is toxic and designed to oppress the majority.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:55 AM on April 10 [30 favorites]
Open carry is one of the most vile parts of gun culture. There's no reason for it other than to proudly display your capability of murdering everyone around you on a whim. It exists only so insecure assholes can wield the power of life or death over everyone else.
Fuck guns. Fuck gun culture. Everything about it is toxic and designed to oppress the majority.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:55 AM on April 10 [30 favorites]
To further illustrate the difficulty of recalling guns, Texans - a state which has open, permitless carry - are estimated to buy approximately 1 million guns annually, likely more given the lax regulations. Nationwide, estimates range from 36-46% for how many USA households have at least one gun.
posted by beaning at 7:47 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
posted by beaning at 7:47 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
People used to be able to paint their houses with lead-based paint.
Then for public health reasons, we banned the sale of lead-based paint and created a regulatory network designed to identify and inform people of the presence of lead based paint when they buy a house or rent an apartment along with incentives to remediate it. The system is far from perfect, but there has been significant progress made in addressing what was at one point an overwhelming problem.
Guns are nothing more than lead-based paint hiding behind a constitutional amendment.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:02 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
Then for public health reasons, we banned the sale of lead-based paint and created a regulatory network designed to identify and inform people of the presence of lead based paint when they buy a house or rent an apartment along with incentives to remediate it. The system is far from perfect, but there has been significant progress made in addressing what was at one point an overwhelming problem.
Guns are nothing more than lead-based paint hiding behind a constitutional amendment.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 8:02 AM on April 10 [4 favorites]
if that is the case and is demonstrable/provable then they were seriously under sentenced
Well, it's 100% not so if I were you I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:51 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
Well, it's 100% not so if I were you I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:51 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]
We SHOULD have national laws requiring that all guns be secured in a gun safe, and requiring proof of ownership of such a safe before any sale of guns or ammunition is permitted.
We SHOULD have a national law tracking all guns so that when one is used in a crime the police can ask pointed questions of the last person who was shown as the registered owner of that gun.
But we can't have that, so maybe, possibly, until the Trump Supreme Court overturns it, we can have at least some retroactive penalties for the people who make guns readily available to others. We should, ideally, see similar charges brought against every person who allowed a gun to fall into the hands of a mass shooter, or any other shooter.
posted by sotonohito at 9:40 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
We SHOULD have a national law tracking all guns so that when one is used in a crime the police can ask pointed questions of the last person who was shown as the registered owner of that gun.
But we can't have that, so maybe, possibly, until the Trump Supreme Court overturns it, we can have at least some retroactive penalties for the people who make guns readily available to others. We should, ideally, see similar charges brought against every person who allowed a gun to fall into the hands of a mass shooter, or any other shooter.
posted by sotonohito at 9:40 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
This feels a bit like the McDonald’s coffee lawsuit in that lots of people are decrying how it is extending current (criminal, vs civil law in the McDonalds coffee case) law unreasonably, while when you delve into the details it turns out that there are a bunch of circumstances specific to this case that make it fit well within already established case law and clarify that it is not the start of any slippery slope.
posted by eviemath at 11:13 AM on April 10 [15 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 11:13 AM on April 10 [15 favorites]
Jurors heard how the teen had drawn a gun, a bullet and a gunshot victim on a math assignment, accompanied by grim phrases: “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me. My life is useless. Blood everywhere.”
Jeebus, that's grim. How much starker could the warning signs have been? How much more could his parents and society have failed him and his victims?
posted by Pouteria at 11:22 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
Jeebus, that's grim. How much starker could the warning signs have been? How much more could his parents and society have failed him and his victims?
posted by Pouteria at 11:22 AM on April 10 [2 favorites]
Twenty-five years ago, Kristin Kinkel’s brother, Kip, killed their parents and opened fire at their high school. Today, she is close with Kip and still reckoning with his crimes.
posted by latkes at 11:50 AM on April 10 [6 favorites]
posted by latkes at 11:50 AM on April 10 [6 favorites]
I still maintain that the most effective route forward is massive restrictions/taxes on ammo — your dumb-ass Constitution doesn’t say shit about ammo.
And there are currently restrictions that exist without comment! Armor-piercing rounds, for instance. I've been saying .223/5.56 ammo should be either banned or taxed heavily, because they're the calibers for which AR's (and many others) are most commonly chambered.
I want to do a little project to get the gun models of mass shootings, but I bet the rank inexpensiveness of these calibers (<1/3 of sporting rounds) has a lot to do with their popularity, especially with minors.
posted by rhizome at 2:18 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
And there are currently restrictions that exist without comment! Armor-piercing rounds, for instance. I've been saying .223/5.56 ammo should be either banned or taxed heavily, because they're the calibers for which AR's (and many others) are most commonly chambered.
I want to do a little project to get the gun models of mass shootings, but I bet the rank inexpensiveness of these calibers (<1/3 of sporting rounds) has a lot to do with their popularity, especially with minors.
posted by rhizome at 2:18 PM on April 10 [1 favorite]
I completely support the parents going to jail over failing to properly secure their gun.
But I am appalled and horrified at the idea that people here think parents deserved jail for failing to take their child home from school in the middle of a workday. That's not neglect or abuse, that's parents making a difficult (if in hindsight flawed) decision in our capitalist world. Ask any parent how utterly ruinous it is when schools and daycares force us to take our children home in the middle of the day. I'm not even an hourly waged worker and I have lost two jobs over having to do these unexpected pickups. Sure, it's my duty to take my children home when the school tells me to, but it's also my duty to provide food, clothing, shelter, and supplies to my child. It is outrageous to incarcerate parents for choosing the latter duty over the former when there was a clear option available to them (the school keeps the kid).
To me it seems obvious that it is the school that fucked up specifically on the day of the incident, not the parents when they refused to take the child home. If you think the child is a danger to themself and to others, enough that you are recommending the child should go home, why wouldn't you take the basic step of checking the child's bag?? The school's astounding lapse here is almost on par with the parents' failure to secure the gun away from their child.
posted by MiraK at 3:33 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
But I am appalled and horrified at the idea that people here think parents deserved jail for failing to take their child home from school in the middle of a workday. That's not neglect or abuse, that's parents making a difficult (if in hindsight flawed) decision in our capitalist world. Ask any parent how utterly ruinous it is when schools and daycares force us to take our children home in the middle of the day. I'm not even an hourly waged worker and I have lost two jobs over having to do these unexpected pickups. Sure, it's my duty to take my children home when the school tells me to, but it's also my duty to provide food, clothing, shelter, and supplies to my child. It is outrageous to incarcerate parents for choosing the latter duty over the former when there was a clear option available to them (the school keeps the kid).
To me it seems obvious that it is the school that fucked up specifically on the day of the incident, not the parents when they refused to take the child home. If you think the child is a danger to themself and to others, enough that you are recommending the child should go home, why wouldn't you take the basic step of checking the child's bag?? The school's astounding lapse here is almost on par with the parents' failure to secure the gun away from their child.
posted by MiraK at 3:33 PM on April 10 [2 favorites]
But I am appalled and horrified at the idea that people here think parents deserved jail for failing to take their child home from school in the middle of a workday. That's not neglect or abuse, that's parents making a difficult (if in hindsight flawed) decision in our capitalist world.
In many cases, I would agree with you. The reporting in this case is that the mother told the school that she could not miss work to take her son home, while telling her lover that she could miss work to meet up with him. So, you know...
posted by prefpara at 3:39 PM on April 10 [6 favorites]
In many cases, I would agree with you. The reporting in this case is that the mother told the school that she could not miss work to take her son home, while telling her lover that she could miss work to meet up with him. So, you know...
posted by prefpara at 3:39 PM on April 10 [6 favorites]
There are lots of things wrong with this, the most obvious being that we don't seem to have (or don't consider) any alternative punishments to jail, which is proven to be useless as a deterrent, leads to more and more violent crime rather than less and is crazy expensive.
But I'm pleased to see parents b being held accountable for the actions of their child, for a change. The law clearly considers a person under 18 is not responsible enough to make decisions for themselves or to do many of the things that adults take for granted such as voting, drinking alcohol, serving in the military etc etc and can't do many things without parental consent. Therefore, the law is clear that parents are responsible for their children under 18. But when that child does something illegal, we refuse to hold them to that responsibility.
Here in Australia (and pretty much everywhere as far as I can tell) we are facing a tidal wave of crime, often violent crime, committed by juveniles. These crimes most often go unpunished not because we don't know who the perpetrators are but because the law prohibits the punishment of minors to a large extent. But the idea that it's OK for nobody to be held accountable for the deliberate commission of a crime, especially one that involves violence, is abhorrent to me. If a child cannot legally be held accountable for a crime they commit, then the child's parents must be held accountable. The law is clear in so many places that parents are 'in charge' of and responsible for their children that it's incomprehensible for those same parents to not have any accountability when their children commit crimes.
If there are no consequences for crime, why would anyone bother to obey the law? I hate that the punishment in this case is something that will both ruin the lives of the parents and make them more likely to commit crimes in the future, but I am very pleased they will face some consequence for their deliberate failure to take up their responsibilities as parents.
posted by dg at 3:42 PM on April 10
But I'm pleased to see parents b being held accountable for the actions of their child, for a change. The law clearly considers a person under 18 is not responsible enough to make decisions for themselves or to do many of the things that adults take for granted such as voting, drinking alcohol, serving in the military etc etc and can't do many things without parental consent. Therefore, the law is clear that parents are responsible for their children under 18. But when that child does something illegal, we refuse to hold them to that responsibility.
Here in Australia (and pretty much everywhere as far as I can tell) we are facing a tidal wave of crime, often violent crime, committed by juveniles. These crimes most often go unpunished not because we don't know who the perpetrators are but because the law prohibits the punishment of minors to a large extent. But the idea that it's OK for nobody to be held accountable for the deliberate commission of a crime, especially one that involves violence, is abhorrent to me. If a child cannot legally be held accountable for a crime they commit, then the child's parents must be held accountable. The law is clear in so many places that parents are 'in charge' of and responsible for their children that it's incomprehensible for those same parents to not have any accountability when their children commit crimes.
If there are no consequences for crime, why would anyone bother to obey the law? I hate that the punishment in this case is something that will both ruin the lives of the parents and make them more likely to commit crimes in the future, but I am very pleased they will face some consequence for their deliberate failure to take up their responsibilities as parents.
posted by dg at 3:42 PM on April 10
I also agree the school needs to shoulder some of the blame for their failure to protect the other children at the school at that particular moment, but that in no way negates any of the responsibility of the parents.
posted by dg at 3:44 PM on April 10
posted by dg at 3:44 PM on April 10
"Here in Australia (and pretty much everywhere as far as I can tell) we are facing a tidal wave of crime, often violent crime, committed by juveniles. "
We just had an election in New Zealand where the media reporting of violent crime was likely a factor in bringing in a right-wing government... but statistically, we are not having a violent crime wave. The long term trend is down and as always, roughly tied to the proportion of young men in the population (hence the crime wave of the 60s and 70s when the boomer men were young and stupid). I will need a lot of convincing before I believe anything other than that scaring people with crime stories builds engagement.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:47 PM on April 10 [16 favorites]
We just had an election in New Zealand where the media reporting of violent crime was likely a factor in bringing in a right-wing government... but statistically, we are not having a violent crime wave. The long term trend is down and as always, roughly tied to the proportion of young men in the population (hence the crime wave of the 60s and 70s when the boomer men were young and stupid). I will need a lot of convincing before I believe anything other than that scaring people with crime stories builds engagement.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:47 PM on April 10 [16 favorites]
One of the things I find interesting about this is that the news is making a big deal of the novelty of the situation. While the mass shooting aspect of charging the parents is new, people need to also realize that there is a steady stream of kids getting shot one at a time, often by other kids. It barely seems to register on the local news, much less the national news. And in these cases the parents/caregivers are often charged with a variety of crimes related to the child having access to a gun. Examples can be found here and here. I think it is also not a coincidence that both the articles I linked involve black people being charged. I didn’t search out those particular articles, just a quick google search and those were two of the first cases I found. I think that holding parents responsible for their children’s actions is potentially problematic, but holding gun owners responsible for what happens with their guns (and that includes poorly secured guns that are stolen from them and later used in a crime) is much easier. Although children are allowed to own long guns in most states, federal law prohibits anyone under 18 from owning a handgun. So in the Crumbley case, it was the parents’ gun, even if they had gifted it to their son.
posted by TedW at 8:34 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
posted by TedW at 8:34 AM on April 11 [5 favorites]
Twenty-five years ago, Kristin Kinkel’s brother, Kip, killed their parents and opened fire at their high school. Today, she is close with Kip and still reckoning with his crimes.
Wow, that article was powerful. The usual sadness of unaddressed mental illness - and the familiar problem of guns. The father used guns to relate to his son, in secret from everyone else, and in doing so, gave him the instrument for his own and his wife's murder, and the destruction Kip caused at the school. Devastating on both counts.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:35 PM on April 11 [8 favorites]
Wow, that article was powerful. The usual sadness of unaddressed mental illness - and the familiar problem of guns. The father used guns to relate to his son, in secret from everyone else, and in doing so, gave him the instrument for his own and his wife's murder, and the destruction Kip caused at the school. Devastating on both counts.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:35 PM on April 11 [8 favorites]
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posted by chronkite at 11:01 AM on April 9 [63 favorites]