... will shock you
April 10, 2024 5:10 AM Subscribe
a webcomic by max graves. tumblr softboy cancelled for involvement in "heavenly creatures" style murder. darkly hilarious exploration of internet fame, isolation, transness and trauma. goes deep into various kinds of internet damage. really can't recommend this enough.
cast page.
this comic from the same guy is also pretty good!
cast page.
this comic from the same guy is also pretty good!
Mod note: _earwig_, you can always message the mods via the Contact Us form at the bottom of every page if you need something adjusted in a post.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:29 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:29 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
Busy reading this. There are so many layers. CW though! All the CWs
posted by Zumbador at 6:23 AM on April 10
posted by Zumbador at 6:23 AM on April 10
I'm about 2/3rds of the way through and had to tear myself away to go to work. Kind of furious at the podcaster/vlogger character who used the main character as grist for the true crime industrial complex. There was a "Heavenly Creatures"-type crime in central Illinois some years back, with the young teen girls tried as adults for the murder of one of the teens' mom (she got 20 years, the other one got about 11), and I was thinking about them as I was reading this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:47 AM on April 10
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:47 AM on April 10
So Halloween Jack... Did you figure out where this story takes place yet?
This webcomic is gripping. So many details. I don't read all the comments, but when I do they point out things I didn't know about. I really learned a lot about a certain kind of lived experience from this comic. One that overlaps with my own so much, but with tragic differences.
posted by keep_evolving at 7:00 AM on April 10
This webcomic is gripping. So many details. I don't read all the comments, but when I do they point out things I didn't know about. I really learned a lot about a certain kind of lived experience from this comic. One that overlaps with my own so much, but with tragic differences.
posted by keep_evolving at 7:00 AM on April 10
OK this is amazing. I'm not all the way through yet and I'm going "Milo ok come you can crash on my sofa, no questions asked"
posted by Zumbador at 7:45 AM on April 10
posted by Zumbador at 7:45 AM on April 10
So Halloween Jack... Did you figure out where this story takes place yet?
Ha, yeah, I saw the one where there are I-74 signs pointing to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis and I was like, soooo... Danville?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:53 AM on April 10
Ha, yeah, I saw the one where there are I-74 signs pointing to Champaign-Urbana and Indianapolis and I was like, soooo... Danville?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:53 AM on April 10
This webcomic is FANTASTIC. I've been hooked, so much that I read it all up to date, and then had to start and read it all over again. A really triumph.
posted by Braeburn at 8:05 AM on April 10
posted by Braeburn at 8:05 AM on April 10
This is one of the best comics I've ever read - I found it when the second chapter started and I have nothing but admiration for how well-observed it is. Also, the art has simultaneously changed/improved and stayed true to the original style. I really like how it's drawn.
Most of the comments section (most of the audience?) is, uh, not average metafilter-age, and it's so interesting to see the difference in response to the characters when they're age peers versus when they are Youths. I find it very easy to sympathize with most of them and really tend to feel that they just need some no-barriers support and time because I'm an Old, but matters look a lot different when the characters are making decisions and taking actions similar to yours. (Except for, like, killing people, that's not very similar.) Many people find Milo really pretty culpable and awful, for instance, and from the lofty heights of age, I just feel like he was very young and unsupported when he was put in a terrifying and bad position and has been kind of kicked around ever since, so of course he's going to make poor choices.
It's a comic about a lot of stuff, but I keep seeing it as a comic about capitalism and state failure. The state isn't really especially evil here, or that's not the focus - Milo and Griffin aren't (as far as we see) treated unusually badly - but it's so obvious that most of these characters would be able to solve their own problems over time if they had secure housing, food and medical care instead of being precarious and dependent on others. Milo in particular is in the middle of a lot of just fucking impossible demands when it really seems like someone in his position really does just need to sit around for a few years to try to recover a bit.
Adults fail kids a lot in this comic, sometimes just because it's difficult to adequately support a child in these awful situations (Claire's parents) and sometimes because they're pretty horrible themselves (Milo's family).
posted by Frowner at 10:18 AM on April 10 [9 favorites]
Most of the comments section (most of the audience?) is, uh, not average metafilter-age, and it's so interesting to see the difference in response to the characters when they're age peers versus when they are Youths. I find it very easy to sympathize with most of them and really tend to feel that they just need some no-barriers support and time because I'm an Old, but matters look a lot different when the characters are making decisions and taking actions similar to yours. (Except for, like, killing people, that's not very similar.) Many people find Milo really pretty culpable and awful, for instance, and from the lofty heights of age, I just feel like he was very young and unsupported when he was put in a terrifying and bad position and has been kind of kicked around ever since, so of course he's going to make poor choices.
It's a comic about a lot of stuff, but I keep seeing it as a comic about capitalism and state failure. The state isn't really especially evil here, or that's not the focus - Milo and Griffin aren't (as far as we see) treated unusually badly - but it's so obvious that most of these characters would be able to solve their own problems over time if they had secure housing, food and medical care instead of being precarious and dependent on others. Milo in particular is in the middle of a lot of just fucking impossible demands when it really seems like someone in his position really does just need to sit around for a few years to try to recover a bit.
Adults fail kids a lot in this comic, sometimes just because it's difficult to adequately support a child in these awful situations (Claire's parents) and sometimes because they're pretty horrible themselves (Milo's family).
posted by Frowner at 10:18 AM on April 10 [9 favorites]
This is very good
posted by 4th number at 10:19 AM on April 10
posted by 4th number at 10:19 AM on April 10
This is amazing. At first I didn't think I could hang because it was so Online, though it's my fault for knowing too well what that looks like. But that's the point -- these characters are stuck in rooms, stuck in time, stuck in the ether. What happened destroyed them, and the people around them offered them nothing to move forward with. (Did Milo get job training, or courses, or what?) So they can't move forward; they can only argue with each other and the world about how terrible they've been or whose fault it was. It's heartbreaking, and I have to keep following it.
The commenters may be young, but one of them said something remarkable: "I often think about how radical feminism is the politicization of trauma-logic." I don't know where that came from, but it's pretty damn sharp.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:36 AM on April 10 [5 favorites]
The commenters may be young, but one of them said something remarkable: "I often think about how radical feminism is the politicization of trauma-logic." I don't know where that came from, but it's pretty damn sharp.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:36 AM on April 10 [5 favorites]
Oh, the comments are great! There's a ton of smart stuff and funny stuff etc etc in the comments. it's just that it struck me that very, very often my response would be "poor Milo/poor Vikki/poor Gage, I totally get why you are doing this dumb thing, your life has been so hard" and the commenters would feel very strongly that they were really, really acting wrongly and failing to parse out the specific morality of their choices, and I really think that's down to the fact that it feels different when you're looking at someone and thinking "I remember being young and in retrospect it was so difficult and there was so much I didn't know" and thinking "I'm dealing with this same kind of stuff right now, why can't you fly right".
I also think max graves is pretty astute about older characters; we don't get any real depth at least so far, but Mrs Gorski is an extremely real character, for instance, and she is characterized so well through the drawing as well as the dialogue.
I have to say, my assumption is that we will get some kind of close look at Griffin (unless it's sort of a Thing that he is the mystery around which the story is organized) and I feel really unsettled when I think about reading that.
posted by Frowner at 1:53 PM on April 10 [6 favorites]
I also think max graves is pretty astute about older characters; we don't get any real depth at least so far, but Mrs Gorski is an extremely real character, for instance, and she is characterized so well through the drawing as well as the dialogue.
I have to say, my assumption is that we will get some kind of close look at Griffin (unless it's sort of a Thing that he is the mystery around which the story is organized) and I feel really unsettled when I think about reading that.
posted by Frowner at 1:53 PM on April 10 [6 favorites]
Oh gosh Milo. Honestly all these young folks, the ones who are still around, need to find ways to grow and learn from their mistakes and get past their traumas and develop a healthy feeling of agency over themselves, and gosh I hope they do.
Also this definitely takes me back to when I was younger. And it reminds me I need to do more to help young folks in my life.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 3:35 PM on April 10
Also this definitely takes me back to when I was younger. And it reminds me I need to do more to help young folks in my life.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 3:35 PM on April 10
This was really well done, thanks for posting it. I'm an old, so at first i was kind of meh about the art, but as I got sucked into the narrative I realized how expressive it was, the reveal of the event absolutely shocked me.... and poor Milo.
Again, thank you!
posted by biddeford at 4:10 PM on April 10
Again, thank you!
posted by biddeford at 4:10 PM on April 10
[spoiler]
the panels in Claire's story where she walks in on Milo & he's like "You can't save her, you need to run before Griffin comes back" absolutely recontextualized a lot about Milo and his state of mind during the attempted cover-up for me
like in that moment it really seems like he's operating under the metric that Griffin is dangerous & might well kill again and it's for self-preservation as much as anything that Milo is being ghoulishly complicit
he possibly/probably saved Claire's life there and she still hates him and it's fascinating that we have spent a bunch of time watching Milo struggle with his own sense of culpability and this never once comes up even though it's probably the best character defense he could give both himself and the randos on tumblr
amazingly layered comic
(also "A Horse Kept Hugging A Pregnant Woman. When the Doctor Examined Her He Called the Police" made me laugh out loud)
posted by taquito sunrise at 4:39 PM on April 10 [8 favorites]
the panels in Claire's story where she walks in on Milo & he's like "You can't save her, you need to run before Griffin comes back" absolutely recontextualized a lot about Milo and his state of mind during the attempted cover-up for me
like in that moment it really seems like he's operating under the metric that Griffin is dangerous & might well kill again and it's for self-preservation as much as anything that Milo is being ghoulishly complicit
he possibly/probably saved Claire's life there and she still hates him and it's fascinating that we have spent a bunch of time watching Milo struggle with his own sense of culpability and this never once comes up even though it's probably the best character defense he could give both himself and the randos on tumblr
amazingly layered comic
(also "A Horse Kept Hugging A Pregnant Woman. When the Doctor Examined Her He Called the Police" made me laugh out loud)
posted by taquito sunrise at 4:39 PM on April 10 [8 favorites]
What's great about this (and I have yearned to talk about this comic forever, but felt like the comments section skewed so young and had such a different perspective that I'd just seem like a weird buzzkill) is that the characters are so subtly drawn and they really resist attempts to say "yes, this person is Good/Bad and chooses to be that way with full responsibility". (Except Milo's dad and a few other people.) I don't think we're meant to take away the idea that you can literally never judge a person or an action - we see lots of actions and some people that are pretty clearly bad. But we're definitely dealing with average people who are morally complex most of the time.
As far as Milo goes, I have always felt sympathetic to him just because it seems reasonable, not weird, that a young kid in a terrifying, totally unpredicted and unpredictable situation would panic and make bad choices. The whole thing seems so much like a nightmare - can't you imagine a nightmare where you're trying to hide a body or conceal some awful crime even though you know it's awful? Everyone always thinks they'd react in a heroic manner, but you need a lot of scaffolding and a strong character to do so when you're confronted with such shock and horror.
And, like, Claire is a horrible person - she's abusive and her politics are appalling. But clearly what she needs is what she won't get, time, help and gentle support. She doesn't have to stay on her path. I don't think it's really in line with her family's values and it's certainly destroying her friendships. But it's really just this tragic situation, she's not doing this because she gets a big charge out of it and it gives her fascist thrills.
I always think this comic is about incommensurability - like, this terrible, terrible, terrible thing happens, and it's done by a kid* and the consequences are so grave and horrible that there's almost nothing in our society that is even remotely useful as a response. Not only is Haylie's death this irreversible tragedy and horror in itself but everything that happens afterward just seems stupid in the light of it. Like, Milo's therapist - what kind of stupidity is that? It's totally inadequate. And yet what's adequate? Like obviously our society is never going to muster up a complex, humane response to this terrible tragedy, that's one thing; and then, philosophically, what does a commensurate response even look like?
You know there's that one panel where Haylie is on her bed, that's just the saddest panel in any comic that isn't about a mass tragedy.
*I wonder about Griffin. Are we going to find out about Griffin? Is Griffin evil? Is he delusional? I keep thinking about that Slenderman killing where the girl who initiated it was literally delusional and hearing voices and then slipped into frank psychosis. Obviously most of the time, people who are mentally ill are likely to be victims, not aggressors, but there have been specific cases where people who are just very, very ill have killed or hurt people essentially in innocence - you're not morally culpable if you're a hallucinating psychotic, you can't make moral decisions in that situation. Is Griffin's family abusive? What's his story? I don't know if we'll find out; I could see a narrative case for just never going there. He did something that was just one individual's action of a moment and then it just grew and grew and engulfed everyone around. him.
posted by Frowner at 5:17 PM on April 10 [9 favorites]
As far as Milo goes, I have always felt sympathetic to him just because it seems reasonable, not weird, that a young kid in a terrifying, totally unpredicted and unpredictable situation would panic and make bad choices. The whole thing seems so much like a nightmare - can't you imagine a nightmare where you're trying to hide a body or conceal some awful crime even though you know it's awful? Everyone always thinks they'd react in a heroic manner, but you need a lot of scaffolding and a strong character to do so when you're confronted with such shock and horror.
And, like, Claire is a horrible person - she's abusive and her politics are appalling. But clearly what she needs is what she won't get, time, help and gentle support. She doesn't have to stay on her path. I don't think it's really in line with her family's values and it's certainly destroying her friendships. But it's really just this tragic situation, she's not doing this because she gets a big charge out of it and it gives her fascist thrills.
I always think this comic is about incommensurability - like, this terrible, terrible, terrible thing happens, and it's done by a kid* and the consequences are so grave and horrible that there's almost nothing in our society that is even remotely useful as a response. Not only is Haylie's death this irreversible tragedy and horror in itself but everything that happens afterward just seems stupid in the light of it. Like, Milo's therapist - what kind of stupidity is that? It's totally inadequate. And yet what's adequate? Like obviously our society is never going to muster up a complex, humane response to this terrible tragedy, that's one thing; and then, philosophically, what does a commensurate response even look like?
You know there's that one panel where Haylie is on her bed, that's just the saddest panel in any comic that isn't about a mass tragedy.
*I wonder about Griffin. Are we going to find out about Griffin? Is Griffin evil? Is he delusional? I keep thinking about that Slenderman killing where the girl who initiated it was literally delusional and hearing voices and then slipped into frank psychosis. Obviously most of the time, people who are mentally ill are likely to be victims, not aggressors, but there have been specific cases where people who are just very, very ill have killed or hurt people essentially in innocence - you're not morally culpable if you're a hallucinating psychotic, you can't make moral decisions in that situation. Is Griffin's family abusive? What's his story? I don't know if we'll find out; I could see a narrative case for just never going there. He did something that was just one individual's action of a moment and then it just grew and grew and engulfed everyone around. him.
posted by Frowner at 5:17 PM on April 10 [9 favorites]
I really think that's down to the fact that it feels different when you're looking at someone and thinking "I remember being young and in retrospect it was so difficult and there was so much I didn't know" and thinking "I'm dealing with this same kind of stuff right now, why can't you fly right".
This is definitely going on.
Also (for me, at least ) a very different world when I was that age myself.
I think it was easier for me, (who was Milos age in the early 90s and before social media existed) to be fine with not immediately, urgently having to know whether he is person-I-block or person-I- follow.
posted by Zumbador at 9:16 PM on April 10
This is definitely going on.
Also (for me, at least ) a very different world when I was that age myself.
I think it was easier for me, (who was Milos age in the early 90s and before social media existed) to be fine with not immediately, urgently having to know whether he is person-I-block or person-I- follow.
posted by Zumbador at 9:16 PM on April 10
A much younger friend introduced me to this comic the same day I told her I had been on a long Ween bender, and at the time, Victim Impact Statement had just concluded with the photo of Claire in the poster...I hadn't noticed the shirt she was wearing until a day or two later, and only upon rereading yesterday did I see the original appearance of that photo...wow.
posted by avocet at 5:42 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
posted by avocet at 5:42 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
I'm enjoying the portrayals of different internet eras, but it's surprisingly hard telling the characters apart in this art style.
posted by one for the books at 12:27 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
posted by one for the books at 12:27 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
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posted by _earwig_ at 5:11 AM on April 10 [1 favorite]