Tokyo’s Public Toilets Will Leave New Yorkers Sobbing
April 15, 2024 9:30 AM Subscribe
The prevailing philosophy about public facilities of all kinds is that they must be indestructible and require minimal upkeep, since that is what they will get. Fighting the forces of disintegration is too costly and requires too much vigilance. These are the arguments of a society driven by self-disgust.
The Tokyo Toilet Project
Explore all seventeen Tokyo Toilet projects
How Toilets Got a Starring Role in a Wim Wenders Movie
If New York Is So Great, Why Isn’t There Anywhere to Pee?
Why Are Public Restrooms Still So Rare?
Where Did Our Public Toilets Go?
Having a Disability Prevents Me From Using the Bathroom in Public
No Dignity on the Floor
The Tokyo Toilet Project
Explore all seventeen Tokyo Toilet projects
How Toilets Got a Starring Role in a Wim Wenders Movie
If New York Is So Great, Why Isn’t There Anywhere to Pee?
Why Are Public Restrooms Still So Rare?
Where Did Our Public Toilets Go?
Having a Disability Prevents Me From Using the Bathroom in Public
No Dignity on the Floor
On the list of things a functioning society should have, convenient easy access for all to clean, comfortable places to expel waste is both #1 and #2.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:47 AM on April 15 [42 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:47 AM on April 15 [42 favorites]
In my home town the youth have a long tradition of vandalizing any public bathrooms to the point of being unusable. The city (of only 13,000 people) spends up to $25,000 a year just to repair the bathrooms.
posted by GiantSlug at 9:55 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
posted by GiantSlug at 9:55 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]
I mean ... yes, I want NYC to have beautiful public toilets, along with any other city that tries. But if it's going to work, it's going to have to go hand in hand with addressing homelessness. I remember trying to use a public bathroom in the Boston T one morning and being told it wasn't my turn. That bathroom was basically a dorm bathroom, although you couldn't tell. It served the population of the Pit, a section of the station where transients and runaways gather, or did at that time.
I didn't mind this, of course; it made sense. But there are many Americans who consider installing public bathrooms as basically inviting the local transient population to stay and have problems there, while housed people, outside of dire emergencies, will continue to angle for bathroom access at businesses. It's a perception worth fighting, but that would require more money and manpower than just to build something nice and leave it there.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:56 AM on April 15 [12 favorites]
I didn't mind this, of course; it made sense. But there are many Americans who consider installing public bathrooms as basically inviting the local transient population to stay and have problems there, while housed people, outside of dire emergencies, will continue to angle for bathroom access at businesses. It's a perception worth fighting, but that would require more money and manpower than just to build something nice and leave it there.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:56 AM on April 15 [12 favorites]
Housed people: no public toilets, that will just invite homeless people and undesirables!
Also housed people: why are homeless people shitting outdoors?
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:01 AM on April 15 [46 favorites]
Also housed people: why are homeless people shitting outdoors?
posted by splitpeasoup at 10:01 AM on April 15 [46 favorites]
In the United States, the best kept "public" toilets seem to be at toll-road rest stops. Meaning they have rather a lot of structural gatekeeping built in. "You must be at least this affluent to use the 'public' bathroom."
posted by Western Infidels at 10:01 AM on April 15 [15 favorites]
posted by Western Infidels at 10:01 AM on April 15 [15 favorites]
In my home town the youth have a long tradition of vandalizing any public bathrooms to the point of being unusable. The city (of only 13,000 people) spends up to $25,000 a year just to repair the bathrooms.
I think there's a lot of things that go into Why Americans Can't Have Anything Nice, but fundamentally someone has to make the first move. I think that if you have to pay to keep up the public toilets because they get vandalized, that's the right choice - although a long-term plan to reduce vandalism could also be developed. Is it that the youths don't have anywhere free to hang out? Is it that the town has a culture of impunity for the rich and these are all rich assholes? Planning can usually reduce even if not eliminate really anti-social behavior given a few years to iterate.
But yeah, as a society we've gotten so ruthless and mean that there's now a whole toxic ecology that is very difficult to address. We don't have the community mental health services promised us in the late seventies or any other facilities, so there are a lot of unhoused mentally ill people; we don't have a real living wage or rent control, so there are a lot of unhoused working people and there's a lot of petty crime prompted by desperation; we've got a lot of unhoused people who either start using drugs/drinking heavily because they're unhoused or have their problems exacerbated by despair; we don't have any social housing so there's nowhere for unhoused people to go...
...we've had fifty years of "there's no such thing as society, get your hands off my Medicare" rhetoric poisoning the well, the government exported all our jobs to sweatshops god knows where, our voting system is crooked as hell so we can't even elect anyone to fix this stuff except maybe in mid-sized towns because the big cities and small towns are already bought.
And our culture is just so mean and glorifies wealth so much. Our society feels so much meaner than I've ever noticed before. Despair, poverty, social media, racism, lousy schools - I don't know, but people are just lousy to each other right now.
And all that is self-reinforcing, so everyone gets poorer and sicker and meaner and scareder, and there are more desperate people who need to use public bathrooms to shoot up, be sick, bathe in small sinks, rest, etc, and there's more needles everywhere (there really are; I never used to see needles in my yard and alley and they're all over now) and constant petty crime (which I don't blame people for, but it does cause you stress if you need, eg, to reliably receive your mail) and all that means that there's so much stress on the few public resources that remain...
And the response is always 'well the bathrooms are full of addicts, got to close them".
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on April 15 [53 favorites]
I think there's a lot of things that go into Why Americans Can't Have Anything Nice, but fundamentally someone has to make the first move. I think that if you have to pay to keep up the public toilets because they get vandalized, that's the right choice - although a long-term plan to reduce vandalism could also be developed. Is it that the youths don't have anywhere free to hang out? Is it that the town has a culture of impunity for the rich and these are all rich assholes? Planning can usually reduce even if not eliminate really anti-social behavior given a few years to iterate.
But yeah, as a society we've gotten so ruthless and mean that there's now a whole toxic ecology that is very difficult to address. We don't have the community mental health services promised us in the late seventies or any other facilities, so there are a lot of unhoused mentally ill people; we don't have a real living wage or rent control, so there are a lot of unhoused working people and there's a lot of petty crime prompted by desperation; we've got a lot of unhoused people who either start using drugs/drinking heavily because they're unhoused or have their problems exacerbated by despair; we don't have any social housing so there's nowhere for unhoused people to go...
...we've had fifty years of "there's no such thing as society, get your hands off my Medicare" rhetoric poisoning the well, the government exported all our jobs to sweatshops god knows where, our voting system is crooked as hell so we can't even elect anyone to fix this stuff except maybe in mid-sized towns because the big cities and small towns are already bought.
And our culture is just so mean and glorifies wealth so much. Our society feels so much meaner than I've ever noticed before. Despair, poverty, social media, racism, lousy schools - I don't know, but people are just lousy to each other right now.
And all that is self-reinforcing, so everyone gets poorer and sicker and meaner and scareder, and there are more desperate people who need to use public bathrooms to shoot up, be sick, bathe in small sinks, rest, etc, and there's more needles everywhere (there really are; I never used to see needles in my yard and alley and they're all over now) and constant petty crime (which I don't blame people for, but it does cause you stress if you need, eg, to reliably receive your mail) and all that means that there's so much stress on the few public resources that remain...
And the response is always 'well the bathrooms are full of addicts, got to close them".
posted by Frowner at 10:07 AM on April 15 [53 favorites]
Just to avoid the slide into “everybody else of doing it right”, I will drop in the anecdata that one of the worst public toilets I’ve used in a long time was in the Tokyo subway.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:07 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
posted by Going To Maine at 10:07 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
Daily Beast: HBO’s gem of a show, which profoundly and humorously investigates life’s most mundane questions, ventures to ask in its premiere: Where can someone use a bathroom in New York?
Unfortunately, only available to HBO/Max subscribers.
posted by ShooBoo at 10:24 AM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, only available to HBO/Max subscribers.
posted by ShooBoo at 10:24 AM on April 15 [3 favorites]
All of the arguments against paying for the construction and maintenance of public toilets also get used against public libraries in certain quarters, too.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:25 AM on April 15 [13 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:25 AM on April 15 [13 favorites]
NYC is a prime example. When there are no public toilets, the city becomes the toilet. It's a human necessity. People are going to go somewhere.
Let's call building decent public toilets "Harm Reduction"!
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:34 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
Let's call building decent public toilets "Harm Reduction"!
posted by Liquidwolf at 10:34 AM on April 15 [6 favorites]
As someone with colitis and having spent 18 years in NYC during the 70s and 80s, I made sure I learned where there were bathrooms available on my daily routes. Hotels usually have a bathroom in the entrance lobby. Libraries are a good choice too. Most restaurants have them and I didn't get questioned too often about not being s customer. One memorable event did occured when I was on the A train going downtown to work. I knew I had to get off at the next stop which was in Harlem area. I dashed upstairs and immediately saw a bar that was open at 7.30 am. I did not want to be turned away so I slapped a fiver on the bar and yelled, gimme a whiskey and soda. I quickly found the restroom and disaster averted. Left the drink untasted as I was on my way to work.
posted by Czjewel at 10:36 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
posted by Czjewel at 10:36 AM on April 15 [10 favorites]
There's one good one in NYC, mentioned in some of the links too.
posted by Pryde at 10:41 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Pryde at 10:41 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
I don't know if it's included in any of the links above, but Criterion just announced they're releasing Perfect Days on 4K/Blu-ray in July. This one has a good chance of being a day-one purchase for me.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:33 AM on April 15 [2 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:33 AM on April 15 [2 favorites]
One time in the early aughts I was near Golden Gate Park in San Francisco and I had to go. After wandering around searching for an hour, I was amazed to conclude that it was far easier to buy illegal drugs than to find a legal place to pee, because I'd had several helpful offers for the former but could find none of the latter.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:34 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:34 AM on April 15 [8 favorites]
Part of the US's lack of public toilets is connected to a hostility about public space in general, especially in dense areas. We lack a shared idea of a commons, of public space, of a place where you can be and do without paying for the pleasure, in part because so much of our commons has been sold off to people who will charge us for access to it. And so we lack the idea that there should be free, comfortable public places, and we lack the idea that the government (us!) might need to pay to maintain those places, and we lack the belief that the government should (or can!) because of false ideas about scarcity (we direct an incredible amount of tax dollars to war-related purposes!), and those false ideas about scarcity lead us to believe that other people should be deprived of human rights.
posted by entropone at 11:35 AM on April 15 [19 favorites]
posted by entropone at 11:35 AM on April 15 [19 favorites]
>tax dollars to war-related purposes
Real Per-Capita (2024 dollars) Defense Expense (Monthly):
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1kdC5
posted by torokunai at 11:56 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
Real Per-Capita (2024 dollars) Defense Expense (Monthly):
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1kdC5
posted by torokunai at 11:56 AM on April 15 [1 favorite]
none of the articles mention the solution of installing blue lighting to discourage needle use....I've seen it mostly in Europe; the Star market near Boston's north station has it too.
The Barnes & Noble in NYC's union square had been a reliable place, but right before the winter holidays they installed code locks and posted a guard near the entry so no one who hadn't made a purchase could come in.
It looks like they've relented somewhat: the guard is still there but the last few times I've been there the door has been unlocked.
posted by brujita at 12:04 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
The Barnes & Noble in NYC's union square had been a reliable place, but right before the winter holidays they installed code locks and posted a guard near the entry so no one who hadn't made a purchase could come in.
It looks like they've relented somewhat: the guard is still there but the last few times I've been there the door has been unlocked.
posted by brujita at 12:04 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
There's one good one in NYC, mentioned in some of the links too.
That is a very good one, but it's always busy. Whenever I'm in Midtown, my preferred restroom stops are in the Rockefeller Center concourse (also frequently busy, but seemingly less so than Bryant Park) and any of the ones in Macy's on 34th St. They're not as fancy, but tend to be clean and no-nonsense. I really wouldn't mind seeing more Bryant Park-style restrooms elsewhere in the city, though.
posted by May Kasahara at 12:08 PM on April 15
That is a very good one, but it's always busy. Whenever I'm in Midtown, my preferred restroom stops are in the Rockefeller Center concourse (also frequently busy, but seemingly less so than Bryant Park) and any of the ones in Macy's on 34th St. They're not as fancy, but tend to be clean and no-nonsense. I really wouldn't mind seeing more Bryant Park-style restrooms elsewhere in the city, though.
posted by May Kasahara at 12:08 PM on April 15
It's more than five years since I was last there, but Japanese public toilets used to fall into either "beautiful and clean and nice robot toilet" or "horrible dirty squat toilet".
I have nothing against squat toilets in general, but for some reason they were often really quite unpleasant in a pretty striking way! As far as I remember, it was always possible to lock the door, though.
Thinking back now, this is specifically about public toilets in the wild. In shopping centres, for example, both squat and non-squat toilets were clean and nice. It was just the public squat ones that stood out in comparison.
posted by fizban at 12:26 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
I have nothing against squat toilets in general, but for some reason they were often really quite unpleasant in a pretty striking way! As far as I remember, it was always possible to lock the door, though.
Thinking back now, this is specifically about public toilets in the wild. In shopping centres, for example, both squat and non-squat toilets were clean and nice. It was just the public squat ones that stood out in comparison.
posted by fizban at 12:26 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
San Francisco is a top target for public defecation (article includes an image of Mayor Breed avoiding sidewalk feces). There are multiple "poop maps" that were seized on by the usual bad-faith conservative commentators to smear the city (you can make your own map).
This real issue requires me to share local public restrooms that I have sampled:
San Francisco: Caltrain Station terminus at 4th & King. The S.F. Main public library now has a full-time security guard stationed inside each first-floor restroom (because). JC Decaux single-occupant wheelchair-accessible public toilets around the city (some suspicious odors were reported around these, though), plus additional "pit stops." For more detail, please review the 207 "public water assets" here.
Berkeley: BART stations, Berkeley public Telegraph-Channing garage (2024 upgrade in the works), U.C. Berkeley (top five YouTube review). I haven't yet sampled the recently-installed $100,000 Portland Loo (bonus - Berkeley response).
San Jose: 47 community centers (some have public showers, like Bascom and Almaden), 25 libraries (check out the cascading sink art by Mel Chin in the MLK Main library upper-floor restrooms), gender-neutral bathrooms at SJSU and the San Jose Diridon train station (may have also been used by Alfred Hitchcock during the filming of Marnie).
posted by JDC8 at 12:29 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
This real issue requires me to share local public restrooms that I have sampled:
San Francisco: Caltrain Station terminus at 4th & King. The S.F. Main public library now has a full-time security guard stationed inside each first-floor restroom (because). JC Decaux single-occupant wheelchair-accessible public toilets around the city (some suspicious odors were reported around these, though), plus additional "pit stops." For more detail, please review the 207 "public water assets" here.
Berkeley: BART stations, Berkeley public Telegraph-Channing garage (2024 upgrade in the works), U.C. Berkeley (top five YouTube review). I haven't yet sampled the recently-installed $100,000 Portland Loo (bonus - Berkeley response).
San Jose: 47 community centers (some have public showers, like Bascom and Almaden), 25 libraries (check out the cascading sink art by Mel Chin in the MLK Main library upper-floor restrooms), gender-neutral bathrooms at SJSU and the San Jose Diridon train station (may have also been used by Alfred Hitchcock during the filming of Marnie).
posted by JDC8 at 12:29 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Perfect Days is a movie, I bet there's people shooting up, fucking, puking, pissing, and shitting all over those Tokyo bathrooms too. If not, maybe it's just that they don't have the energy anymore.
posted by kingdead at 12:31 PM on April 15
posted by kingdead at 12:31 PM on April 15
London once had a proud tradition of Public Conveniences — never enough, but they did exist. Then of course many of them were closed and often removed. The one at South End Green, near where I grew up, was chained shut for years. I was passing by a few months ago and I noticed it was open! Well done Camden. As it’s one of the underground ones I don’t suppose it will ever be accessible in its historic form (for all I know it’s listed at this point :-) , but we shouldn’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
If you want to know what it’s like, it even has a review on Yelp with a photo.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 12:33 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
If you want to know what it’s like, it even has a review on Yelp with a photo.
posted by Quinbus Flestrin at 12:33 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
Don't forget about the Portland Loo, another "brand" of public toilet developed originally in Portland Oregon. Looks like there are 3 in Hoboken NJ, but none in New York City.
posted by hydra77 at 1:24 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
posted by hydra77 at 1:24 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
Ah yes, the Portland Loo - a clear demonstration of hostile architecture.
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:53 PM on April 15
posted by NoxAeternum at 1:53 PM on April 15
> In the United States, the best kept "public" toilets seem to be at toll-road rest stops.
Agreed, except for a major exception: Iowa public freeway rest areas. I don't understand the magic happening there.
posted by user92371 at 1:56 PM on April 15
Agreed, except for a major exception: Iowa public freeway rest areas. I don't understand the magic happening there.
posted by user92371 at 1:56 PM on April 15
I don't understand why no SF-area tech plutocrat has yet endowed a clean, well-staffed public bathroom at the union bart station. If you want to spend your millions on vanity you can't get much better than having 10,000 of your fellow citizens whisper a quiet prayer of thanks to you, personally, during their daily commute.
posted by eraserbones at 2:06 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
posted by eraserbones at 2:06 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
An obvious incremental solution that the US seems to universally disdain is: pay toilets. There must be some amount of money we could charge for those BART station bathrooms that would pay for an attendant to keep them from turning into shooting galleries. Ubiquitous pay toilets aren't exactly what I want from the world, but they would be a HUGE improvement to the status quo.
In Minnesota any business that serves food (or even hot coffee) is required to provide a public bathroom. That's comparable to the pay-toilet scheme; basically anyone with money for a cup of coffee can buy access to a cleanish bathroom anywhere that there are services.
posted by eraserbones at 2:08 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
In Minnesota any business that serves food (or even hot coffee) is required to provide a public bathroom. That's comparable to the pay-toilet scheme; basically anyone with money for a cup of coffee can buy access to a cleanish bathroom anywhere that there are services.
posted by eraserbones at 2:08 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
I don't understand why no SF-area tech plutocrat has yet endowed a clean, well-staffed public bathroom at the union bart station. If you want to spend your millions on vanity you can't get much better than having 10,000 of your fellow citizens whisper a quiet prayer of thanks to you, personally, during their daily commute.
Service to others brings them no personal glory.
posted by entropone at 3:05 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
Service to others brings them no personal glory.
posted by entropone at 3:05 PM on April 15 [10 favorites]
I don't understand why no SF-area tech plutocrat has yet endowed a clean, well-staffed public bathroom
Capitalism can only do profitable things, not useful things.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:15 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
Capitalism can only do profitable things, not useful things.
posted by AlSweigart at 3:15 PM on April 15 [8 favorites]
none of the articles mention the solution of installing blue lighting to discourage needle use....I've seen it mostly in Europe; the Star market near Boston's north station has it too.
This worked as intended for like a week, and then addicts figured out they could just draw their own veins onto their arms with a blacklight pen. Making this an arms race is more pointless cruelty, we also need safe injection sites.
posted by mhoye at 4:34 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
This worked as intended for like a week, and then addicts figured out they could just draw their own veins onto their arms with a blacklight pen. Making this an arms race is more pointless cruelty, we also need safe injection sites.
posted by mhoye at 4:34 PM on April 15 [6 favorites]
Private development with an attendant.
Let's say it costs $250k to build a 4-stall 4-basin unisex attended bathroom.
You need $250k a year to pay wages and benefits to attendant/janitor 24/7, $25k for heavy maintenance, $75k in water, sewer, electric and consumables, and $25k for a 10% cost of capital. $375k a year all-in. At $3 per use break even is 342 users a day over say 21 open hours. That's doable anywhere you've got decent traffic.
posted by MattD at 4:42 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Let's say it costs $250k to build a 4-stall 4-basin unisex attended bathroom.
You need $250k a year to pay wages and benefits to attendant/janitor 24/7, $25k for heavy maintenance, $75k in water, sewer, electric and consumables, and $25k for a 10% cost of capital. $375k a year all-in. At $3 per use break even is 342 users a day over say 21 open hours. That's doable anywhere you've got decent traffic.
posted by MattD at 4:42 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Let's call building decent public toilets "Harm Reduction"!
Being anti- harm reduction is part of the platform for the new edgelord "progressive" coalitions in San Francisco right now, so I'm not sure that gets anyone any father with people who don't believe in city services and government perks for anyone but people exactly like themselves.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:46 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
Being anti- harm reduction is part of the platform for the new edgelord "progressive" coalitions in San Francisco right now, so I'm not sure that gets anyone any father with people who don't believe in city services and government perks for anyone but people exactly like themselves.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:46 PM on April 15 [5 favorites]
I agree with the comment above that it's important to avoid romanticizing Japan. Both the best and the worst public toilets I've ever encountered have been in Japan, and those "best" ones are generally at places of business and maintained as part of just maintaining the store anyway (convenience stores, nine times out of ten, will have toilets available for people to use in all but the most tourist-crowded areas of Japanese cities). Turns out, Japan is just a place, where normal people live.
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:07 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:07 PM on April 15 [7 favorites]
One of the worst things is having to Suddenly Have To Go while in San Francisco. At best you're forced to stand in a long line for a drink YOU ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED OR WANT TO HAVE so you can get a bathroom key for a one stall toilet, and there's a line. I hate having to get permission to go to the bathroom, get a bathroom key, get a code, whatever....but if you don't have that, then ... well, I used to go in BART toilets at the end of the lines (they used to be better than the middle station city toilets), but once I went into one and it looked like a blood-smeared crime scene, I gave up on that. Nobody has any way to stop some people from trashing the toilets, and here we are.
As for pay toilets, I will refer you to the musical "Urinetown" for issues with that one :P Also from one of those articles: "Movements arose to end the practice of paid toilets, which was seen as both sexist (urinals were often free to use but stalls were not)" OH THAT FIGURES.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:38 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
As for pay toilets, I will refer you to the musical "Urinetown" for issues with that one :P Also from one of those articles: "Movements arose to end the practice of paid toilets, which was seen as both sexist (urinals were often free to use but stalls were not)" OH THAT FIGURES.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:38 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
pay toilets
I haven't carried silver in my pocket in over 20 years, and I rarely have smalls on hand. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feed a fin—if I had one—into some door on the hope that there's a functioning can on the other side, and I definitely wouldn't cram a twenty into it. So that leaves me, what, booping a card into it? You want me to boop a transaction for five cents into a stall door so I can take a leak?
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets? How about instead, we just go ahead and build public toilets at all, and then after we do that, we start cleaning them periodically, and then after we do that, we try to maintain them every so often. Once we've got a handle on those basics, we can tackle the systemic thing where people feel the need to utterly destroy them every chance they get.
posted by majick at 6:47 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
I haven't carried silver in my pocket in over 20 years, and I rarely have smalls on hand. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't feed a fin—if I had one—into some door on the hope that there's a functioning can on the other side, and I definitely wouldn't cram a twenty into it. So that leaves me, what, booping a card into it? You want me to boop a transaction for five cents into a stall door so I can take a leak?
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets? How about instead, we just go ahead and build public toilets at all, and then after we do that, we start cleaning them periodically, and then after we do that, we try to maintain them every so often. Once we've got a handle on those basics, we can tackle the systemic thing where people feel the need to utterly destroy them every chance they get.
posted by majick at 6:47 PM on April 15 [4 favorites]
Not sure what a fin is, but the toilet’s not going to be five cents, it’s going to be at least a dollar, and yeah you boop it.
posted by Wood at 7:20 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
posted by Wood at 7:20 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
mebbe we'll get barcodes on our butts so we can just AssPay.
posted by torokunai at 7:38 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
posted by torokunai at 7:38 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
I like walking around the northern 1/3 of SF to admire all the cool houses (and get some high-quality cardio) and can find those Honey Bucket toilets when needed . . .
posted by torokunai at 7:40 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
posted by torokunai at 7:40 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
> Both the best and the worst public toilets I've ever encountered have been in Japan
even in the same location! When I was in Tokyo Station last October the main level bathroom was a mid-Showa style establishment (IYKYK, not great not terrible) but seeing they'd added a deep subterranean level of underground shopping semi-recently I guessed they'd have some better toilets down there, and in fact the ones I found down there were pretty close to the Bucc-ees experience I had last week.
posted by torokunai at 7:42 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
even in the same location! When I was in Tokyo Station last October the main level bathroom was a mid-Showa style establishment (IYKYK, not great not terrible) but seeing they'd added a deep subterranean level of underground shopping semi-recently I guessed they'd have some better toilets down there, and in fact the ones I found down there were pretty close to the Bucc-ees experience I had last week.
posted by torokunai at 7:42 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
> That's doable anywhere you've got decent traffic.
Weird thing is I've long thought it's weird we have 1000 different kinds of commercial establishments devoted to selling food but zero businesses devoted to the back-end of that.
Think of the possibilities!
posted by torokunai at 7:46 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Weird thing is I've long thought it's weird we have 1000 different kinds of commercial establishments devoted to selling food but zero businesses devoted to the back-end of that.
Think of the possibilities!
posted by torokunai at 7:46 PM on April 15 [3 favorites]
Sydney's got these.
Last time I looked, they were AU$0.50, but that's probably changed, and will likely change further as street furniture is being upgraded.
posted by lipservant at 8:20 PM on April 15
Last time I looked, they were AU$0.50, but that's probably changed, and will likely change further as street furniture is being upgraded.
posted by lipservant at 8:20 PM on April 15
You want me to boop a transaction for five cents into a stall door so I can take a leak?
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets?
This is entirely the plot of Urinetown (a show inspired by a pay toilet), with the show' added bonus of "they kill you if you are caught doing an illegal pee."
Not sure what a fin is, but the toilet’s not going to be five cents, it’s going to be at least a dollar
A fin is five dollars. Which, coincidentally, is what they are charging to pee at the beginning of Urinetown. And then the fees go up...which is another thing that will inevitably happen with pay toilets.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:50 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets?
This is entirely the plot of Urinetown (a show inspired by a pay toilet), with the show' added bonus of "they kill you if you are caught doing an illegal pee."
Not sure what a fin is, but the toilet’s not going to be five cents, it’s going to be at least a dollar
A fin is five dollars. Which, coincidentally, is what they are charging to pee at the beginning of Urinetown. And then the fees go up...which is another thing that will inevitably happen with pay toilets.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:50 PM on April 15 [2 favorites]
Here in Amsterdam of course we have our own twist on this. There are plenty of public urinals for men but not enough toilets for women, so a woman filed a lawsuit, and lost. Here's a map of the current situation. Now, supposedly more money has been allocated to add more public toilets this year.
That map isn't complete though, the 7 or 8 public libraries (search for OBA in Google maps) in the city offer free, clean public toilets. And there are paid toilets in all train stations (no cash, you swipe your phone/debit card) as well as private toilets like this "sexy" one in the red light district or this one in the shopping district.
There's also plenty of busy places in the city from the ITA and De Balie in Leidseplein to the huge EYE Film museum that offer free, clean and non-gendered toilets for public use. So the situation isn't that bad here but I don't know of one source that lists all these options.
posted by vacapinta at 1:23 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
That map isn't complete though, the 7 or 8 public libraries (search for OBA in Google maps) in the city offer free, clean public toilets. And there are paid toilets in all train stations (no cash, you swipe your phone/debit card) as well as private toilets like this "sexy" one in the red light district or this one in the shopping district.
There's also plenty of busy places in the city from the ITA and De Balie in Leidseplein to the huge EYE Film museum that offer free, clean and non-gendered toilets for public use. So the situation isn't that bad here but I don't know of one source that lists all these options.
posted by vacapinta at 1:23 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
I have used a squat toilet in several places, including fashionable Rome, and prefer them. Who wants a dirty toilet seat getting in the way.
posted by waving at 2:03 AM on April 16
posted by waving at 2:03 AM on April 16
The Portland Loo is hostile architecture, isn't it? Unless I was about to die from it, I don't think I could physically relax enough to use the thing. It's basically a cheap 80s bathroom stall in the middle of the road.
This worked as intended for like a week, and then addicts figured out they could just draw their own veins onto their arms with a blacklight pen.
Designers always underestimate the knowledge and inventiveness of subaltern populations.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:19 AM on April 16
This worked as intended for like a week, and then addicts figured out they could just draw their own veins onto their arms with a blacklight pen.
Designers always underestimate the knowledge and inventiveness of subaltern populations.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:19 AM on April 16
I guess you could call the Portland Loo hostile, but it's certainly better than nothing. And when you need to go, it's free and and it's clean enough. I could see it as equal opportunity hostility, perhaps. It doesn't offend me, and yes, I've used one. I'd rather use that than a closed off room smeared in bodily fluids, with flickering lightbulbs.
posted by hydra77 at 6:43 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
posted by hydra77 at 6:43 AM on April 16 [7 favorites]
The Portland Loo was designed around the people who would service it— it’s to be hosed down quickly and easily inspected by cops. It was not designed around its users, and it is uncomfortable. But the Loo was designed around an affordable total cost of maintenance in a US city. And cities can actually afford to keep the Loo open 24/7 with existing budgets. That’s why it has been successfully sold to so many cities.
I’d change two things about the Portland Loo: the toilet paper dispenser needs wind resistance, because the facility is semi-open. Wind causes toilet paper to blow around the restroom stall. Also, the hand washing station sends a stream of water to splash at your feet and always drenches my shoes no matter where I stand. There needs to be a catchment sink.
Structures like the Portland Loo are a part of the solution to restroom access. Requiring all public facing businesses to maintain a public restroom is the most important policy approach, along with having actual public services, as people have mentioned.
posted by Headfullofair at 7:25 AM on April 16
I’d change two things about the Portland Loo: the toilet paper dispenser needs wind resistance, because the facility is semi-open. Wind causes toilet paper to blow around the restroom stall. Also, the hand washing station sends a stream of water to splash at your feet and always drenches my shoes no matter where I stand. There needs to be a catchment sink.
Structures like the Portland Loo are a part of the solution to restroom access. Requiring all public facing businesses to maintain a public restroom is the most important policy approach, along with having actual public services, as people have mentioned.
posted by Headfullofair at 7:25 AM on April 16
Also, the hand washing station sends a stream of water to splash at your feet and always drenches my shoes no matter where I stand. There needs to be a catchment sink.
The lack of a catchment is intentional - it was left out to prevent transient people from using it to wash their clothes.
Hostile architecture is bad design - it turns out that when you design to hurt people, that can easily rebound on you.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:10 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]
The lack of a catchment is intentional - it was left out to prevent transient people from using it to wash their clothes.
Hostile architecture is bad design - it turns out that when you design to hurt people, that can easily rebound on you.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:10 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]
The Portland Loo solves the problem of not having a single fucking toilet available anywhere. I would love to see the interconnected mess of policy, budget, and attitudes towards public space swing towards better public provision of restrooms and all other services.
But people still need to take a shit today. And the Portland Loo is what real existing North American cities can afford to buy and run. It could use some edits to remove some of its hostile features, and many cities edit the design. For instance, the blue lighting doesn’t appear in the Loos in Nanaimo or Vancouver. So it’s worth asking for a sink. Just like it’s worth asking for everything else people deserve.
posted by Headfullofair at 10:38 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]
But people still need to take a shit today. And the Portland Loo is what real existing North American cities can afford to buy and run. It could use some edits to remove some of its hostile features, and many cities edit the design. For instance, the blue lighting doesn’t appear in the Loos in Nanaimo or Vancouver. So it’s worth asking for a sink. Just like it’s worth asking for everything else people deserve.
posted by Headfullofair at 10:38 AM on April 16 [4 favorites]
You know where there’s a great public toilet in Manhattan? Port Authority! The South Wing main level, just past the ticketing offices. Lots of stalls, clean.
There’s a self cleaning public toilet at the train station in Aix-en-Provence. The kind that floods the floor after you exit. Or, if you’re in a wicked hurry, you barge past the fellow exiting, sit down, the lights go off, and the pitch black room is filled with the sound of rushing water and you raise your feet just in time. After you stumble out, you realize that your camera slipped out of your pocket and your holiday photos are lost forever, down the drain.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:38 PM on April 16 [2 favorites]
There’s a self cleaning public toilet at the train station in Aix-en-Provence. The kind that floods the floor after you exit. Or, if you’re in a wicked hurry, you barge past the fellow exiting, sit down, the lights go off, and the pitch black room is filled with the sound of rushing water and you raise your feet just in time. After you stumble out, you realize that your camera slipped out of your pocket and your holiday photos are lost forever, down the drain.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 3:38 PM on April 16 [2 favorites]
> I bet there's people shooting up, fucking, puking, pissing, and shitting all over those Tokyo bathrooms too
There weren't, in my experience as a tourist there in 2022. It was amazing. I saw only one toilet that was unpleasant -- a squat toilet near a popular hike. And honestly, that one was pretty clean by US public restroom standards.
The lack of public toilets here makes me so angry, both for society at large and for me as an individual. I want to be able to go for day-long walks in the city, but I need to figure "where will I pee?" into my planning. I also don't want to walk past shit on the sidewalk, and I don't like that the restrooms in the lobby of the building where I work are used as public restrooms, and I don't like that people are forced into such undignified situations.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:57 PM on April 16
There weren't, in my experience as a tourist there in 2022. It was amazing. I saw only one toilet that was unpleasant -- a squat toilet near a popular hike. And honestly, that one was pretty clean by US public restroom standards.
The lack of public toilets here makes me so angry, both for society at large and for me as an individual. I want to be able to go for day-long walks in the city, but I need to figure "where will I pee?" into my planning. I also don't want to walk past shit on the sidewalk, and I don't like that the restrooms in the lobby of the building where I work are used as public restrooms, and I don't like that people are forced into such undignified situations.
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:57 PM on April 16
No matter how clean the toilet is, it only takes one person to make it dirty. And toilets need to be cleaned with regularity, often if its a public toilet.
The truth is, you can throw lots of money at a problem but if there is a small subset of bad people among the users, you won't have a clean public toilet.
Btw, I went to Germany many years ago. There are some public toilets on the street, but they stank so much I just went to the mall and paid 1.7 euro to use a clean toilet. The toilet has an automated baffle gate and an attendant, who I think is as much there to watch for turnstile jumpers as he is to constantly clean the place.
If its free, it will not be good.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 8:19 PM on April 16
The truth is, you can throw lots of money at a problem but if there is a small subset of bad people among the users, you won't have a clean public toilet.
Btw, I went to Germany many years ago. There are some public toilets on the street, but they stank so much I just went to the mall and paid 1.7 euro to use a clean toilet. The toilet has an automated baffle gate and an attendant, who I think is as much there to watch for turnstile jumpers as he is to constantly clean the place.
If its free, it will not be good.
posted by Didnt_do_enough at 8:19 PM on April 16
come to think of it, I wonder how much of Japan's reputation for "clean public toilets" comes from the vast majority of those being private toilets that members of the public are allowed to use
I've been in actual public toilets in Japan and they not infrequently have a toilet paper vending machine at the entrance, without even so much as a space for a roll to go in the stalls
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:08 PM on April 16 [2 favorites]
I've been in actual public toilets in Japan and they not infrequently have a toilet paper vending machine at the entrance, without even so much as a space for a roll to go in the stalls
posted by DoctorFedora at 9:08 PM on April 16 [2 favorites]
All of the UK train stations I regularly travel through stopped charging for their toilets. When travelling with small children you would just always ensure you had five or six lots of 30p before you set out. It's so much nicer to not have to think about it at all (plus rarely carrying cash, it was a hassle!).
posted by goo at 12:24 AM on April 17
posted by goo at 12:24 AM on April 17
If its free, it will not be good.
Back in the day, it was free to use the public bathrooms in our local park and at the library. This was in a solidly middle class area outside of Chicago - that is, the town was a mixture of blue collar, office worker and a few actually rich people, but there was no visible emergency-level poverty.
Our library was absolutely beautiful, by the way - partially a converted historic home with a nice mid-century addition. It was quite and pleasant and very well-stocked for a suburb.
Those bathrooms were always pristine - kids, parents, passers-by, all basically left them in good shape and the library had enough funding for nightly janitor services. Of course there was the occasional sick child or accident of one kind or another, but people behaved appropriately in the library.
Librarianship runs in the family, so I have known many librarians since, and of course libraries have been allowed to deteriorate enormously over the past decades, even in the suburbs - how does one discourage the men who watch porn on the shared computers? How does one confront men who watch porn and jerk off? How does one safely clean up needles in the bathroom? Where does one get overdose reversal training for the staff? What resources does the library provide to hungry, ill-clothed, sick or homeless children and adult patrons? (And of course this has resulted in a de-emphasis of books, reading and quiet places to concentrate; it has to.)
Why are libraries now substantially social services centers? Because we've let society itself deteriorate - there are more people who need help and there's less help available. If your choice is a quiet place with nice bathrooms versus help for people who need it, you help.
My point being, if you create a society where a large percentage of people are in various kinds of trouble all day everyday, anything that is free will get damaged and messed up.
A subsidiary point - if you create a society where everything is crooked and money-worshipping, where the law is more and more nakedly a way for the rich to oppress the poor, you create a society of cynical, miserable people who will wreck things just because they feel like it, plus some scum up at the surface who will wreck things just because they can.
But it doesn't have to be like that. When I was a kid in a functional place where there was enough work, no homelessness and decent town services, people treated public spaces fairly well.
~~
Also, if it isn't free, I can tell you that can either house the homeless and provide them with resources or have shit on the sidewalks. Better to have people shitting in a low-quality public toilet with a little bit of privacy than on the sidewalk because they couldn't hold it anymore.
posted by Frowner at 6:36 AM on April 17 [12 favorites]
Back in the day, it was free to use the public bathrooms in our local park and at the library. This was in a solidly middle class area outside of Chicago - that is, the town was a mixture of blue collar, office worker and a few actually rich people, but there was no visible emergency-level poverty.
Our library was absolutely beautiful, by the way - partially a converted historic home with a nice mid-century addition. It was quite and pleasant and very well-stocked for a suburb.
Those bathrooms were always pristine - kids, parents, passers-by, all basically left them in good shape and the library had enough funding for nightly janitor services. Of course there was the occasional sick child or accident of one kind or another, but people behaved appropriately in the library.
Librarianship runs in the family, so I have known many librarians since, and of course libraries have been allowed to deteriorate enormously over the past decades, even in the suburbs - how does one discourage the men who watch porn on the shared computers? How does one confront men who watch porn and jerk off? How does one safely clean up needles in the bathroom? Where does one get overdose reversal training for the staff? What resources does the library provide to hungry, ill-clothed, sick or homeless children and adult patrons? (And of course this has resulted in a de-emphasis of books, reading and quiet places to concentrate; it has to.)
Why are libraries now substantially social services centers? Because we've let society itself deteriorate - there are more people who need help and there's less help available. If your choice is a quiet place with nice bathrooms versus help for people who need it, you help.
My point being, if you create a society where a large percentage of people are in various kinds of trouble all day everyday, anything that is free will get damaged and messed up.
A subsidiary point - if you create a society where everything is crooked and money-worshipping, where the law is more and more nakedly a way for the rich to oppress the poor, you create a society of cynical, miserable people who will wreck things just because they feel like it, plus some scum up at the surface who will wreck things just because they can.
But it doesn't have to be like that. When I was a kid in a functional place where there was enough work, no homelessness and decent town services, people treated public spaces fairly well.
~~
Also, if it isn't free, I can tell you that can either house the homeless and provide them with resources or have shit on the sidewalks. Better to have people shitting in a low-quality public toilet with a little bit of privacy than on the sidewalk because they couldn't hold it anymore.
posted by Frowner at 6:36 AM on April 17 [12 favorites]
Some public libraries have become social service centers because they we have permitted it.
Libraries which are non-public by nature - e.g., university libraries where you need a faculty or staff IDs - are still recognizably libraries.
Public libraries like that in my town, which has no poor people or homeless services (and hence no homeless) - are unchanged from what libraries were decades ago but for more electronic media. Any guy who watched porn in our library would be in handcuffed in the back of a prowler in three minutes (the police station is a few blocks down the road), but no one would ever think of doing that in the first place.
posted by MattD at 7:19 AM on April 17
Libraries which are non-public by nature - e.g., university libraries where you need a faculty or staff IDs - are still recognizably libraries.
Public libraries like that in my town, which has no poor people or homeless services (and hence no homeless) - are unchanged from what libraries were decades ago but for more electronic media. Any guy who watched porn in our library would be in handcuffed in the back of a prowler in three minutes (the police station is a few blocks down the road), but no one would ever think of doing that in the first place.
posted by MattD at 7:19 AM on April 17
have become social service centers because they we have permitted it
Public libraries like that in my town, which has no poor people or homeless services (and hence no homeless)
(a) I bet you're wrong about your town's population, you just don't know it.
(b) Homeless services don't cause homelessness, but it's great that you're happy to believe you've kept the cooties off yourself and on the rest of the world, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on April 17 [7 favorites]
Public libraries like that in my town, which has no poor people or homeless services (and hence no homeless)
(a) I bet you're wrong about your town's population, you just don't know it.
(b) Homeless services don't cause homelessness, but it's great that you're happy to believe you've kept the cooties off yourself and on the rest of the world, I guess.
posted by praemunire at 7:52 AM on April 17 [7 favorites]
You want me to boop a transaction for five cents into a stall door so I can take a leak?
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets?
Yes. Not 100 percent of them, but charge for some of the toilets. Make a pay toilet cost a dollar or two or more (maybe coffee money), whatever it takes to pay to run such a place: infrastructure, utilities, supplies, insurance, attendant/cleaner. The attendant makes sure it's clean enough to sit down and there is no one in there but you. You use a credit card to unlock it. Now they know who you are, they have your credit card number, the meter's running (so don't read a book in there unless you're ready to pay for the extra time), and they will inspect/clean it after you leave. If you make a mess, they'll bill your card for the extra cleaning, so no hovering, spraying the seat, etc. Be decent to the attendant who has to clean up after you.
And make a certain portion of the toilets free. As a person who uses the pay toilets, you appreciate the need for everyone to have access to public toilets. You're donating to make safe, clean, free toilets available to people who can't afford a cup of coffee, you're helping to employ someone (the attendant), and you're helping to keep the streets and parks clean.
posted by pracowity at 2:10 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]
Now, what if I were unhoused? How's that whole system gonna work out for me? Come on, pay toilets?
Yes. Not 100 percent of them, but charge for some of the toilets. Make a pay toilet cost a dollar or two or more (maybe coffee money), whatever it takes to pay to run such a place: infrastructure, utilities, supplies, insurance, attendant/cleaner. The attendant makes sure it's clean enough to sit down and there is no one in there but you. You use a credit card to unlock it. Now they know who you are, they have your credit card number, the meter's running (so don't read a book in there unless you're ready to pay for the extra time), and they will inspect/clean it after you leave. If you make a mess, they'll bill your card for the extra cleaning, so no hovering, spraying the seat, etc. Be decent to the attendant who has to clean up after you.
And make a certain portion of the toilets free. As a person who uses the pay toilets, you appreciate the need for everyone to have access to public toilets. You're donating to make safe, clean, free toilets available to people who can't afford a cup of coffee, you're helping to employ someone (the attendant), and you're helping to keep the streets and parks clean.
posted by pracowity at 2:10 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]
I used San Francisco's $625,000 bathroom. It was a crappy experience.
When I graduated with my very expensive journalism degree six years ago, I never imagined I would eventually use it to write about people using a toilet.
In fact, I was one of at least five members of the local news media who were there that day with a similar mission.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 PM on April 18 [1 favorite]
When I graduated with my very expensive journalism degree six years ago, I never imagined I would eventually use it to write about people using a toilet.
In fact, I was one of at least five members of the local news media who were there that day with a similar mission.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:33 PM on April 18 [1 favorite]
NYT: A Close Examination of the Most Infamous Public Toilet in America (gift link)
It turned out Ginsburg was right: Different choices could be made and those choices could save money. The city now estimates that the Noe toilet cost only around $200,000. Somehow this is yet more maddening. If San Francisco can install public toilets for $200,000, why doesn’t it do so normally?
The restroom — which cost around $120,000 — was already built. The installation — which Buckley estimates at around $140,000 — took a week and a half. The back-and-forth on procurement, logistics, permitting — not to mention whether San Francisco would even accept a donation from Nevada, one of the states it was boycotting — took about a year. “It should not take a year to have an already built toilet put in the ground,” Buckley told me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:19 AM on April 28
It turned out Ginsburg was right: Different choices could be made and those choices could save money. The city now estimates that the Noe toilet cost only around $200,000. Somehow this is yet more maddening. If San Francisco can install public toilets for $200,000, why doesn’t it do so normally?
The restroom — which cost around $120,000 — was already built. The installation — which Buckley estimates at around $140,000 — took a week and a half. The back-and-forth on procurement, logistics, permitting — not to mention whether San Francisco would even accept a donation from Nevada, one of the states it was boycotting — took about a year. “It should not take a year to have an already built toilet put in the ground,” Buckley told me.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:19 AM on April 28
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posted by torokunai at 9:34 AM on April 15 [5 favorites]