Basketball, protests, and such
February 27, 2003 4:52 PM Subscribe
Basketball player refuses to honor flag. Going along with the anti-protesting sentiment found here, A Vietnam veteran ran on to the court waving an American flag in response to Toni Smith, a Div. III basketball player who refuses to face the flag. Conservatives have already chimed in here . Smith briefly explains her position in this article. Should players be allowed to protest during collegiate basketball games? What if she wasn't protesting the war?
While I disagree with the b-ball player's reasons for NOT facing and/or saluting the flag, the larger question is: why the hell is the National Anthem played at sporting events at all? It shouldn't be, in my opinion. After all - you don't start YOUR workday with a rousing rendition of the National Anthem, do you?* Why should sporting events (pro, college, high school, etc) have the National Anthem played prior to the event?
* For the record, I sometimes do -- but military folks play by slightly different rules, for obvious reasons.
posted by davidmsc at 4:59 PM on February 27, 2003
* For the record, I sometimes do -- but military folks play by slightly different rules, for obvious reasons.
posted by davidmsc at 4:59 PM on February 27, 2003
Anyone who thinks that someone expressing their freedom to face a specific direction during the national anthem is unamerican has significant irony problems, or a poorly formed notion of what the flag stands for.
posted by jonson at 5:06 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by jonson at 5:06 PM on February 27, 2003
Here in L.A., you're required to salute Shaquille O'Neal when he walks by (but then, I'd salute anybody who's THAT BIG).
posted by wendell at 5:09 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by wendell at 5:09 PM on February 27, 2003
Seems to me she's choosing to turn her back on the very symbol of the thing that's allowing her to turn her back.
Her choice. She shouldn't be dunned for it but no one should expect her to be wildly praised either.
posted by WolfDaddy at 5:36 PM on February 27, 2003
Her choice. She shouldn't be dunned for it but no one should expect her to be wildly praised either.
posted by WolfDaddy at 5:36 PM on February 27, 2003
Uhm... teachers start their day with a rousing rendition of the national anthem where I live. ;-)
Not to mention the various companies that have their own workday starting songs.
I think I'll make the national anthem a requirement to start the workday at my business. Maybe it'll drill some work ethics into everyone (*myself included*), just like it was supposed to at school.
posted by shepd at 5:45 PM on February 27, 2003
Not to mention the various companies that have their own workday starting songs.
I think I'll make the national anthem a requirement to start the workday at my business. Maybe it'll drill some work ethics into everyone (*myself included*), just like it was supposed to at school.
posted by shepd at 5:45 PM on February 27, 2003
She seems to be against many things in America. How about the scholarship money she got from the taxpayers of NY that went to Purchase (I taught there once) to put her through school?
Alas, she plays for a second rate team as women's basketball goes so she got the school recognition they would otherwise never have had.
And after graduation we hope she can turn her life to addressing the issues she complains about.
posted by Postroad at 5:47 PM on February 27, 2003
Alas, she plays for a second rate team as women's basketball goes so she got the school recognition they would otherwise never have had.
And after graduation we hope she can turn her life to addressing the issues she complains about.
posted by Postroad at 5:47 PM on February 27, 2003
It seems like, given the team nature of basketball, a bizarre venue for protest.
My eyebrows raised, with non-surprise, when I saw that she was a sociology major. I give my fellow MeFi-ers a quest: Find a single person, anywhere, who holds a degree in sociology but is not on the ultra-left. I'm not one of the "we're losin the country, all profs are liberals!" kinda guys, but for some reason every time I see a far-leftist in an article, it's always a sociologist. Wierd stuff.
posted by Kevs at 5:53 PM on February 27, 2003
My eyebrows raised, with non-surprise, when I saw that she was a sociology major. I give my fellow MeFi-ers a quest: Find a single person, anywhere, who holds a degree in sociology but is not on the ultra-left. I'm not one of the "we're losin the country, all profs are liberals!" kinda guys, but for some reason every time I see a far-leftist in an article, it's always a sociologist. Wierd stuff.
posted by Kevs at 5:53 PM on February 27, 2003
I wonder if sociologists know a thing or two about how societies function...
Naaa, they must all be under some commie mind control. That makes more sense.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:10 PM on February 27, 2003
Naaa, they must all be under some commie mind control. That makes more sense.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:10 PM on February 27, 2003
Find a single person, anywhere, who holds a degree in sociology but is not on the ultra-left.
David Popenoe
That was too easy.
posted by found missing at 6:16 PM on February 27, 2003
David Popenoe
That was too easy.
posted by found missing at 6:16 PM on February 27, 2003
I served my time in the Marine Corps to protect her right to do just as she did. I am glad to know my time there was not wasted. You go girl!
posted by mischief at 6:20 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by mischief at 6:20 PM on February 27, 2003
Well, there are plenty of conservatives that think they're sociologists. Dinesh D'Souza, James Q. Wilson, and Thomas Sowell leap to mind.
posted by boltman at 6:35 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by boltman at 6:35 PM on February 27, 2003
Seems like no big deal to me. She's free to not salute the flag, and her school seems supportive, and her coach at least seems to accept it.
From another thread, she should probably expect to get heckled for it, but the audience isn't allowed to be on the court and they ejected the yahoo who ran out on the court with the flag. Everything happened as it should.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:36 PM on February 27, 2003
From another thread, she should probably expect to get heckled for it, but the audience isn't allowed to be on the court and they ejected the yahoo who ran out on the court with the flag. Everything happened as it should.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:36 PM on February 27, 2003
I remember the age when only pro basketball players dared to protest during the national anthem before a game. *wipes away single tear* (And whoa, check out this Washington University Law Quarterly article!)
posted by sillygwailo at 6:44 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by sillygwailo at 6:44 PM on February 27, 2003
The guys on the local sports talk radio made a good point: when Cassius Clay refused to be drafted, he willingly sacrificed his title. Smith would be taken more seriously--and possibly given more respect--were she to sacrifice her playing time.
posted by padraigin at 6:59 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by padraigin at 6:59 PM on February 27, 2003
Currently in this country women are not allowed to serve in combat positions. And only men can be drafted. Not to minimize womens role in the military but it strikes me as a bit two-faced on her part. It's one thing to sacrifice playing time, another thing entirely your life. How does the boys basketball team her classmates feel they may get drafted and die and have little choice in the matter. If she wants respect she should be marching to allow women into combat positions and drafted.
posted by stbalbach at 7:03 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by stbalbach at 7:03 PM on February 27, 2003
Speaking as a former DIII athlete, I'd be pissed at my teammate for creating such a big distraction, regardless of her rights or beliefs. Fans have packed the house for a chance to boo her. Leave your beliefs in the locker room. This is basketball, not debate club.
Maybe she'll graduate and become a teacher in Maine.
Dave Wottle forgot to remove his hat on the medal stand after winning the 800m in the 1972 Olympics and it was misinterpreted as a sign of protest. His hat made it into the Track & Field Hall of Fame before he did.
posted by Frank Grimes at 7:08 PM on February 27, 2003
Maybe she'll graduate and become a teacher in Maine.
Dave Wottle forgot to remove his hat on the medal stand after winning the 800m in the 1972 Olympics and it was misinterpreted as a sign of protest. His hat made it into the Track & Field Hall of Fame before he did.
posted by Frank Grimes at 7:08 PM on February 27, 2003
Much ado about nothing. The flag represents her right to protest it (and burn it), but her real beef seems to be with the Prez and not America (though I understand folks who have problems separating the two, especially when one drapes itself in the other).
why the hell is the National Anthem played at sporting events at all?
Isn't the national anthem/pledge played before most large gatherings (tractor pulls, NFL games, graduations)? I would think that's why. I kind of like hearing Rockets Red Glare before I watch millionaires run around.
posted by owillis at 7:17 PM on February 27, 2003
why the hell is the National Anthem played at sporting events at all?
Isn't the national anthem/pledge played before most large gatherings (tractor pulls, NFL games, graduations)? I would think that's why. I kind of like hearing Rockets Red Glare before I watch millionaires run around.
posted by owillis at 7:17 PM on February 27, 2003
from the "article":
"However, when you show the lack of respect that this young lady has...you have crossed the line. "
Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary:
MR. FLEISCHER: I'm aware of the press reports about what he said. I have not seen the actual transcript of the show itself. But assuming the press reports are right, it's a terrible thing to say, and it unfortunate. And that's why -- there was an earlier question about has the President said anything to people in his own party -- they're reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do. This is not a time for remarks like that; there never is.
posted by the fire you left me at 7:18 PM on February 27, 2003
"However, when you show the lack of respect that this young lady has...you have crossed the line. "
Ari Fleischer, White House Press Secretary:
MR. FLEISCHER: I'm aware of the press reports about what he said. I have not seen the actual transcript of the show itself. But assuming the press reports are right, it's a terrible thing to say, and it unfortunate. And that's why -- there was an earlier question about has the President said anything to people in his own party -- they're reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do. This is not a time for remarks like that; there never is.
posted by the fire you left me at 7:18 PM on February 27, 2003
I think this story has spun wildly out of control in the past few weeks. She's just a student who plays division III women's hoops, and has been engaging in a quiet, non-disruptive protest all season.
Whether you agree with her protest or not, it's hard to come up with a reason why she should be forced to face the flag that isn't far more offensive than her protest.
posted by mosch at 7:20 PM on February 27, 2003
Whether you agree with her protest or not, it's hard to come up with a reason why she should be forced to face the flag that isn't far more offensive than her protest.
posted by mosch at 7:20 PM on February 27, 2003
As said in the article: "No one's questioning her beliefs, but she should take it outside."
Or take it off the team. Permanently.
posted by hama7 at 7:31 PM on February 27, 2003
Or take it off the team. Permanently.
posted by hama7 at 7:31 PM on February 27, 2003
I think it's because sociologist is just a few letters from socialist... ;-)
posted by shepd at 7:43 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by shepd at 7:43 PM on February 27, 2003
Or take it off the team. Permanently.
People who have a hard time separating sports and nationalistic rituals are the ones that scare me the most.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:56 PM on February 27, 2003
People who have a hard time separating sports and nationalistic rituals are the ones that scare me the most.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:56 PM on February 27, 2003
It's a piece of painted cloth people!
Duck! Hide! We're being invaded by painted cloth people!
*Sorry*
This lass is braver than I'll ever be, and I admire her for sticking to it. Maybe I'm just a spoiled American pantywaist, but I've always resented the hell out of being forced to bestow unquestioning loyalty to a symbol. Especially at sporting events. The admixture of collective testosterone and ritualistic jingoism makes me right uneasy. It's like being in a roomful of slavering, feral dogs.
posted by yalestar at 8:27 PM on February 27, 2003
Duck! Hide! We're being invaded by painted cloth people!
*Sorry*
This lass is braver than I'll ever be, and I admire her for sticking to it. Maybe I'm just a spoiled American pantywaist, but I've always resented the hell out of being forced to bestow unquestioning loyalty to a symbol. Especially at sporting events. The admixture of collective testosterone and ritualistic jingoism makes me right uneasy. It's like being in a roomful of slavering, feral dogs.
posted by yalestar at 8:27 PM on February 27, 2003
There's a fairly large population of athletes who won't face the flag or sing the anthem before games due to religious reasons (Jehovah's Witnesses & others).
They stand at attention and face forward, not towards the flag. This gesture is universally accepted by those in the crowd and on the team because while it refuses to honor the flag it shows the individual's respect for those who do honor the flag. The cans respect the athlete's beliefs because they can see that the athlete respects their beliefs.
This girl is turning her back on the flag not just to show her dislike of it, but her disdain for those who do.
She's attempting an act of political theater - so she shouldn't be surprised that she gets a lot of bad reviews.
That said, she should never be punished for her behavior, of course, and the aggressive hecklers should be punished for theirs.
But think how much good she could do actively working to further her aim of making America a better place, rather than merely insulting those she disagrees with.
posted by Jos Bleau at 8:39 PM on February 27, 2003
They stand at attention and face forward, not towards the flag. This gesture is universally accepted by those in the crowd and on the team because while it refuses to honor the flag it shows the individual's respect for those who do honor the flag. The cans respect the athlete's beliefs because they can see that the athlete respects their beliefs.
This girl is turning her back on the flag not just to show her dislike of it, but her disdain for those who do.
She's attempting an act of political theater - so she shouldn't be surprised that she gets a lot of bad reviews.
That said, she should never be punished for her behavior, of course, and the aggressive hecklers should be punished for theirs.
But think how much good she could do actively working to further her aim of making America a better place, rather than merely insulting those she disagrees with.
posted by Jos Bleau at 8:39 PM on February 27, 2003
"But think how much good she could do actively working to further her aim of making America a better place, rather than merely insulting those she disagrees with" - a sentiment that protestors of all parts of the political spectrum should read very carefully, I believe.
posted by Kevs at 8:44 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by Kevs at 8:44 PM on February 27, 2003
Okay, I have to pipe in, especially considering the president of the school is my pop. I'll just add a couple quick points about Toni, because I think some of the finer points may have been missed in the sound of knee jerking and flag flapping.
-When Toni decided (at the beginning of the season) to do this, she talked about it first with her teammates, coach, and family. She struggled with the decision of how to handle the conflicting emotions she felt during the anthem, and came to this conclusion after lots of learning and discussion. During that discussion, she repeatedly emphasized to everyone that she was looking for something that would allow her to be true to her self without implying anyone else on the team agreed with her views.
-She's as surprised and overwhelmed by the press hunger as anyone else (especially considering that there was no press or protests for the first 24 games of the season - only the last 3). You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the level of threats and invective that have been hurled at her, her family, my family, etc. in the past week.
-She's been asked to do everything from Today to GMA to CNN to HBO sports interviews, and has declined. She only spoke briefly at yesterday's news conference (and not at today's) to counter reports that she had been intimidated by the threats that she had received, and would soon quit the team / give up her ideals / etc.
So do I agree with her? I think it's great that she believes in something enough to go through what she's going through (trust me - she's not having fun at all). I think she's incredibly naive to not understand what all the fuss is about. In the end, it doesn't matter what I think. She has my sympathy as someone who has touched a nerve while looking to soothe her own, and I feel for her on that level enough to hope that this issue goes away as the season ends.
Oh. One more thing. For the last time... Turning 90 degrees does not mean that her back is to the flag. She may not be a good judge of the American tolerance level for dissent these days, but she does know her geometry better than 99% of the reporters and other critics out there.
posted by JoshBerman at 9:10 PM on February 27, 2003
-When Toni decided (at the beginning of the season) to do this, she talked about it first with her teammates, coach, and family. She struggled with the decision of how to handle the conflicting emotions she felt during the anthem, and came to this conclusion after lots of learning and discussion. During that discussion, she repeatedly emphasized to everyone that she was looking for something that would allow her to be true to her self without implying anyone else on the team agreed with her views.
-She's as surprised and overwhelmed by the press hunger as anyone else (especially considering that there was no press or protests for the first 24 games of the season - only the last 3). You wouldn't believe (or maybe you would) the level of threats and invective that have been hurled at her, her family, my family, etc. in the past week.
-She's been asked to do everything from Today to GMA to CNN to HBO sports interviews, and has declined. She only spoke briefly at yesterday's news conference (and not at today's) to counter reports that she had been intimidated by the threats that she had received, and would soon quit the team / give up her ideals / etc.
So do I agree with her? I think it's great that she believes in something enough to go through what she's going through (trust me - she's not having fun at all). I think she's incredibly naive to not understand what all the fuss is about. In the end, it doesn't matter what I think. She has my sympathy as someone who has touched a nerve while looking to soothe her own, and I feel for her on that level enough to hope that this issue goes away as the season ends.
Oh. One more thing. For the last time... Turning 90 degrees does not mean that her back is to the flag. She may not be a good judge of the American tolerance level for dissent these days, but she does know her geometry better than 99% of the reporters and other critics out there.
posted by JoshBerman at 9:10 PM on February 27, 2003
Sorry, JoshBerman, actions meant to be offensive do not become inoffensive simply because they are part of an internally consistant moral stance. And they are no excuse not to learn anything form the Jehova's Witnesses either.
Would you support her if she went from town to town and went into an NAACP meeting and said "Howdie, n*****s, things that you think are good are what I hate."
If you will defend her, then you must defend that, as long as the person doing so agonized enough beforehand.
Is there any amount of 'struggl[ing] with the decision' and 'be[ing] true to her self ' that would make such actions OK, in your view? The worst racist could say just the same thing an be just as right.
And would you tell a 20 year old Klanswoman " I think it's great that she believes in something enough to go through what she's going through (trust me - she's not having fun at all)."
posted by Jos Bleau at 9:29 PM on February 27, 2003
Would you support her if she went from town to town and went into an NAACP meeting and said "Howdie, n*****s, things that you think are good are what I hate."
If you will defend her, then you must defend that, as long as the person doing so agonized enough beforehand.
Is there any amount of 'struggl[ing] with the decision' and 'be[ing] true to her self ' that would make such actions OK, in your view? The worst racist could say just the same thing an be just as right.
And would you tell a 20 year old Klanswoman " I think it's great that she believes in something enough to go through what she's going through (trust me - she's not having fun at all)."
posted by Jos Bleau at 9:29 PM on February 27, 2003
Jos, not feeling comfortable with the state of your country and thus choosing not to salute the flag, is not the same as being in the Klan. That's just stupid. Her actions are not meant to be offensive, they are meant to protest something she finds offensive. Half the people in this thread appall me.
posted by Nothing at 10:08 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by Nothing at 10:08 PM on February 27, 2003
What Nothing said. And it's creepy to compare this woman's actions to being a racist, that's along the (equally creepy) "love it or leave it" lines. Why does it matter to you if she salutes or faces the flag or not? Why is it any of your business that she is making her own personal protest in this manner? She's not stopping you from saluting the flag, her actions do not affect you directly at all.
posted by biscotti at 10:15 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by biscotti at 10:15 PM on February 27, 2003
So here is a question here. How many of the people complaining about Ms. Smith have a flag on the bumper sticker of their car? How many have a flag thats been left out in this brutal winter weather night and day? How many of those small flags waved at games ended up in the trash aftewards. What gets me about all this "respect the flag" hoopla is that since 9/11 the flag has been repeatedly trashed, abused, and displayed as little more than a commerical hook, and everyone is complaining because one person out of a matter of consience takes the respectful and simple step of not facing the flag?
I'm a flag-loving left-wing patriot. I stand at the national anthem and I say the REAL pledge of allegance with pride. (not the revision created by a bunch of paranoids that believed that athiest=communist=soviet spy) But I'm quite aware that my demonstrations of pride don't mean sqat if those demonstrations are not completely voluntary.
So here is the bottom line, an athlete who makes the choice as a matter of consience to not face the flag diserves a heck of a lot more respect than the apathetic armchair patriots for whom honoring the flag means slapping a decal on the bumper, buying a shirt at Walmart or leaving the flag out all winter on the front of your house.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:16 PM on February 27, 2003
I'm a flag-loving left-wing patriot. I stand at the national anthem and I say the REAL pledge of allegance with pride. (not the revision created by a bunch of paranoids that believed that athiest=communist=soviet spy) But I'm quite aware that my demonstrations of pride don't mean sqat if those demonstrations are not completely voluntary.
So here is the bottom line, an athlete who makes the choice as a matter of consience to not face the flag diserves a heck of a lot more respect than the apathetic armchair patriots for whom honoring the flag means slapping a decal on the bumper, buying a shirt at Walmart or leaving the flag out all winter on the front of your house.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 10:16 PM on February 27, 2003
Me, I don't see why anyone would struggle with it, or need to talk to people about it, or find some plan of action to be yourself and not imply anything about anyone else, etc. What's to struggle with?
If you don't like the anthem, or if it makes you feel bad in some way, don't sing it. It's nobody else's business. If you don't want to sing it, or don't like hearing it, why should I care? Your dislike or lack of song doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket, or Jos Bleau's, or anyone else's.
Sure, she should expect to get heckled, because she's going out of her way not just to not sing it but to let everyone know that she isn't singing it. That said, Jos Bleau is over the top -- she's not trying to be offensive to anyone, she's being an arguably-overwrought 21-year-old who feels the weight of the world on her shoulders and for whom the need for personal integrity seems to be high.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:27 PM on February 27, 2003
If you don't like the anthem, or if it makes you feel bad in some way, don't sing it. It's nobody else's business. If you don't want to sing it, or don't like hearing it, why should I care? Your dislike or lack of song doesn't break my leg or pick my pocket, or Jos Bleau's, or anyone else's.
Sure, she should expect to get heckled, because she's going out of her way not just to not sing it but to let everyone know that she isn't singing it. That said, Jos Bleau is over the top -- she's not trying to be offensive to anyone, she's being an arguably-overwrought 21-year-old who feels the weight of the world on her shoulders and for whom the need for personal integrity seems to be high.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:27 PM on February 27, 2003
Oh, and put me in the camp of people who find it weird that we're supposed to bow and scrape and sing praise-hymns to Caesar as we worship Him before we watch a bunch of cars go real fast and turn left a lot. But then it's been made clear to me on more than one occasion that I don't grok patriotism -- to me it makes about as much sense as having a big emotional investment in whether or not it rains in Helsinki, and then being proud that it did.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:34 PM on February 27, 2003
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:34 PM on February 27, 2003
As stated previously, she could protest America and the flag without insult, but she has chosen to protest with insult. Of course she's not in the Klan, but morally her actions are indistinguishable from those of the racist that I described, namely offensive conduct aimed at a crowd.
The fact that JoshBerman can only justify her action in terms of her internal moral debate leads exactly to he consequnces specified.
It's easy to support the freedom of speach of those who say what agree with - but what about freedom for the others?
The ACLU faced just the same issue when they represented the Nazis who marched in Skokie in the 70's.
If you are willing to support this young woman, than you should be just as willing to support that of the you klanswoman's. That's not an comment about Toni Smith's position - it about yours.
And we're still waiting for her to do something positive to advance her cause - yup, it might even mean having to quit basketball so you can advocate full time, but people who bravely believe in things sometimes actually do more than merely stand to show their beliefs.
posted by Jos Bleau at 10:34 PM on February 27, 2003
The fact that JoshBerman can only justify her action in terms of her internal moral debate leads exactly to he consequnces specified.
It's easy to support the freedom of speach of those who say what agree with - but what about freedom for the others?
The ACLU faced just the same issue when they represented the Nazis who marched in Skokie in the 70's.
If you are willing to support this young woman, than you should be just as willing to support that of the you klanswoman's. That's not an comment about Toni Smith's position - it about yours.
And we're still waiting for her to do something positive to advance her cause - yup, it might even mean having to quit basketball so you can advocate full time, but people who bravely believe in things sometimes actually do more than merely stand to show their beliefs.
posted by Jos Bleau at 10:34 PM on February 27, 2003
As stated previously, she could protest America and the flag without insult, but she has chosen to protest with insult.
No, you've chosen to feel insulted by her protest. You're the one who's imputing hatred into her actions; she is not wearing a sign that clearly and unequivocally states "I HATE YOU, AMERICA!"
Of course she's not in the Klan, but morally her actions are indistinguishable from those of the racist that I described, namely offensive conduct aimed at a crowd
Yes, because standing quietly is always and everywhere exactly like racist oppression. In fact, since her conduct is expressive, and burning a cross on someone's yard is expressive, she's clearly no better than a cross-burning Klansman. And she probably makes baby Jesus cry.
The fact that JoshBerman can only justify her action in terms of her internal moral debate leads exactly to he consequnces specified.
I can justify her actions more easily than that: if she prefers to stand at 90 degrees and not sing, that's her prerogative, and her doing so neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg so it's none of your fucking business. It's simple, purely harmless expression and doesn't need any other justification than that the expressor wanted to express it. Feel free to express back and heckle her, or to be Captain Ironical Man and turn yourself 90 degrees to her whenever she's shooting free-throws or whatever.
If a hypothetical racist really wants to run around to NAACP meetings and shout racist slogans at people, I suppose that's her business too, as long as the meeting is open to the public (though they'd be within their rights to eject her). If she can find a way to do so by standing quietly, she'll at least have earned my grudging admiration for her ingenuity.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:00 PM on February 27, 2003
No, you've chosen to feel insulted by her protest. You're the one who's imputing hatred into her actions; she is not wearing a sign that clearly and unequivocally states "I HATE YOU, AMERICA!"
Of course she's not in the Klan, but morally her actions are indistinguishable from those of the racist that I described, namely offensive conduct aimed at a crowd
Yes, because standing quietly is always and everywhere exactly like racist oppression. In fact, since her conduct is expressive, and burning a cross on someone's yard is expressive, she's clearly no better than a cross-burning Klansman. And she probably makes baby Jesus cry.
The fact that JoshBerman can only justify her action in terms of her internal moral debate leads exactly to he consequnces specified.
I can justify her actions more easily than that: if she prefers to stand at 90 degrees and not sing, that's her prerogative, and her doing so neither picks your pocket nor breaks your leg so it's none of your fucking business. It's simple, purely harmless expression and doesn't need any other justification than that the expressor wanted to express it. Feel free to express back and heckle her, or to be Captain Ironical Man and turn yourself 90 degrees to her whenever she's shooting free-throws or whatever.
If a hypothetical racist really wants to run around to NAACP meetings and shout racist slogans at people, I suppose that's her business too, as long as the meeting is open to the public (though they'd be within their rights to eject her). If she can find a way to do so by standing quietly, she'll at least have earned my grudging admiration for her ingenuity.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:00 PM on February 27, 2003
The ACLU faced just the same issue when they represented the Nazis who marched in Skokie in the 70's.
If you are willing to support this young woman, than you should be just as willing to support that of the you klanswoman's. That's not an comment about Toni Smith's position - it about yours.
Well to be honest, I do support the right of the Klan to hold rallies in the capital of my state if only because the counter-protest provides a much more convincing condemnation of their ethos than banning them.
But here is a major point of disagreement:
As stated previously, she could protest America and the flag without insult, but she has chosen to protest with insult. Of course she's not in the Klan, but morally her actions are indistinguishable from those of the racist that I described, namely offensive conduct aimed at a crowd.
I'm not certain what grounds there is to be insulted. It is not as if she is giving the flag the finger, picking her nose, sticking her tounge out, biting the thumb or pulling her lower eyelid down. Her behavior of quiet, respectful, non-participation is in fact, less insulting to me than the behavior of 80% of sports fans who use the anthem as time to get to their seats, open up snacks, or talk in hushed voices. If quiet, respectful, non-participation (and I consider her protest respectful because she does not interfere with celebration of others) is offensive, then I hate to see what you consider to be obscene! Do I commit some grave offense by standing (or sitting) respectfully during prayer? Or by not engaging in mass consumption of turkey and ham at religious feasts? Her non-participation only indicates a personal discomfort with the ritual. Her protest is far more respectful of the opinions of others than the critics are to her.
And for pete's sake. I've been frequently accused of being anal retentive about flag rituals. I cringe whenever I see a flag bumper sticker stained with salt and road grime and *I* don't see a reason to take offense or assume insult at her actions.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:25 PM on February 27, 2003
If you are willing to support this young woman, than you should be just as willing to support that of the you klanswoman's. That's not an comment about Toni Smith's position - it about yours.
Well to be honest, I do support the right of the Klan to hold rallies in the capital of my state if only because the counter-protest provides a much more convincing condemnation of their ethos than banning them.
But here is a major point of disagreement:
As stated previously, she could protest America and the flag without insult, but she has chosen to protest with insult. Of course she's not in the Klan, but morally her actions are indistinguishable from those of the racist that I described, namely offensive conduct aimed at a crowd.
I'm not certain what grounds there is to be insulted. It is not as if she is giving the flag the finger, picking her nose, sticking her tounge out, biting the thumb or pulling her lower eyelid down. Her behavior of quiet, respectful, non-participation is in fact, less insulting to me than the behavior of 80% of sports fans who use the anthem as time to get to their seats, open up snacks, or talk in hushed voices. If quiet, respectful, non-participation (and I consider her protest respectful because she does not interfere with celebration of others) is offensive, then I hate to see what you consider to be obscene! Do I commit some grave offense by standing (or sitting) respectfully during prayer? Or by not engaging in mass consumption of turkey and ham at religious feasts? Her non-participation only indicates a personal discomfort with the ritual. Her protest is far more respectful of the opinions of others than the critics are to her.
And for pete's sake. I've been frequently accused of being anal retentive about flag rituals. I cringe whenever I see a flag bumper sticker stained with salt and road grime and *I* don't see a reason to take offense or assume insult at her actions.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:25 PM on February 27, 2003
Since when are Americans forced to take part in the flag salute and singing of the national anthem? Is this some new law that I haven't heard about yet?
posted by Orb at 1:57 AM on February 28, 2003
posted by Orb at 1:57 AM on February 28, 2003
What she did, Jos, is not offensive in the least. What IS offensive is the school's hauling that nationalist tripe into the sports area in the first place. She should not have to 'take it outside' because they should not have brought it inside.
posted by mischief at 5:02 AM on February 28, 2003
posted by mischief at 5:02 AM on February 28, 2003
Protest Is Not Tolerated.
O' Defenders Of All Things Duhbya
What have I done to insult the Boy King so?
I love my country even more than you
And am willing to be spat upon and heckled
In order to quietly protest the demise of what I hold dear
But it is insult and deafness to your ears
That the unelected fraud could be wrong
Or that we would not goose step as a single minded throng.
posted by nofundy at 6:33 AM on February 28, 2003
O' Defenders Of All Things Duhbya
What have I done to insult the Boy King so?
I love my country even more than you
And am willing to be spat upon and heckled
In order to quietly protest the demise of what I hold dear
But it is insult and deafness to your ears
That the unelected fraud could be wrong
Or that we would not goose step as a single minded throng.
posted by nofundy at 6:33 AM on February 28, 2003
According to some of the early stories on her, she released a written statement regarding her protest on Thursday, Feb. 20. However, although various news stories contain excerpts from her statement, I haven't been able to find the full text of this statement anywhere. Can anyone do better than me?
JoshBerman: She's as surprised and overwhelmed by the press hunger as anyone else (especially considering that there was no press or protests for the first 24 games of the season - only the last 3).
Well, she released a written statement regarding her protest on Feb. 20, and the first story I found on the topic was published Feb. 21. Maybe, just maybe, her releasing the statement led to the attention? How can she be surprised that "the press hunger" started after she released a statement that was intended to garner attention?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:46 AM on February 28, 2003
JoshBerman: She's as surprised and overwhelmed by the press hunger as anyone else (especially considering that there was no press or protests for the first 24 games of the season - only the last 3).
Well, she released a written statement regarding her protest on Feb. 20, and the first story I found on the topic was published Feb. 21. Maybe, just maybe, her releasing the statement led to the attention? How can she be surprised that "the press hunger" started after she released a statement that was intended to garner attention?
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 6:46 AM on February 28, 2003
patriotism != nationalism. (spoken as another lefty flag-waver...but I hate that if I display the flag, people will assume that I am agreeing with the positions of those who have co-opted the symbol and believe that it's theirs alone.)
posted by Vidiot at 6:47 AM on February 28, 2003
posted by Vidiot at 6:47 AM on February 28, 2003
"It will be a great day when our schools get all the money they need and the military has to hold a bake sale to buy a bomber."
Toni Smith for President!
Also, what biscotti and nothing said.
Jos - Klanswomen, Nazis? What odd/tenuous comparitors you have chosen. No matter how many times I re-read your contributions, I'm afraid I'm still not clear about how the examples you use could possibly be analagous with the subject of this post.
On a general note, I must confess I've always found America's relationship with it's flag fascinating - by comparison to any other country I know, the prominence given to - and the passions aroused by - Old Glory is astonishing to the outsider (btw, to the trigger-happy types, that wasn't a criticism of any sort, merely a musing).
posted by Doozer at 7:06 AM on February 28, 2003
Toni Smith for President!
Also, what biscotti and nothing said.
Jos - Klanswomen, Nazis? What odd/tenuous comparitors you have chosen. No matter how many times I re-read your contributions, I'm afraid I'm still not clear about how the examples you use could possibly be analagous with the subject of this post.
On a general note, I must confess I've always found America's relationship with it's flag fascinating - by comparison to any other country I know, the prominence given to - and the passions aroused by - Old Glory is astonishing to the outsider (btw, to the trigger-happy types, that wasn't a criticism of any sort, merely a musing).
posted by Doozer at 7:06 AM on February 28, 2003
The problem is that the flag is too general a symbol for an effective protest, unless the message of your protest is "Death to America!"
Protesting by showing some sort of disrespect to the flag -- and I think that this is why so many people get so bent out of shape about it -- effectively reduces all that the flag stands for to one single issue.
In throwing out all the rest that the flag stands for, the protest undermines its own credibility somewhat. In a lot of places, publicly and deliberately showing disrespect to the symbols of state is a criminal offense, and punished harshly. Aside from standing for Part of what the U.S. flag stands for is a political philosophy where you can show as much disrespect for the flag as you like.
When you turn your back on the flag, though, or burn it, or whatever -- you're not only protesting the war (or whatever), but also repudiating the philosophy that guarantees your right protest the war. (I don't necessarily think that this is what Ms. Smith means to say, but that's the message that's getting across.)
You could hold a sign, I suppose, that says something like 'I protest the war with Iraq and other, vaguely-defined things that I dislike about our society, culture, and government, but not the fact that I can do so without fear of government goon squads taking me away in the night,' but then that wouldn't be as crystalline a statement.
posted by tino at 7:48 AM on February 28, 2003
Protesting by showing some sort of disrespect to the flag -- and I think that this is why so many people get so bent out of shape about it -- effectively reduces all that the flag stands for to one single issue.
In throwing out all the rest that the flag stands for, the protest undermines its own credibility somewhat. In a lot of places, publicly and deliberately showing disrespect to the symbols of state is a criminal offense, and punished harshly. Aside from standing for Part of what the U.S. flag stands for is a political philosophy where you can show as much disrespect for the flag as you like.
When you turn your back on the flag, though, or burn it, or whatever -- you're not only protesting the war (or whatever), but also repudiating the philosophy that guarantees your right protest the war. (I don't necessarily think that this is what Ms. Smith means to say, but that's the message that's getting across.)
You could hold a sign, I suppose, that says something like 'I protest the war with Iraq and other, vaguely-defined things that I dislike about our society, culture, and government, but not the fact that I can do so without fear of government goon squads taking me away in the night,' but then that wouldn't be as crystalline a statement.
posted by tino at 7:48 AM on February 28, 2003
Part of post I posted on Sportsfilter (sorry for being lazy, I think that it applicable to this thread too):
I don't think I speak for most Americans, but I am ambivalent about the practice [of facing the flag and listening to the nation anthem (be it the US one or the Canadian one)]. On one hand, I love the ideals of my country and what to celebrate them. On the other hand, doing so before a sports event seems a bit odd.
Update: Geno Auriemma of Uconn said he wouldn't allow a player on his team to turn away from the American flag during the national anthem.
Frankly this a hard situation because everyone is right. Toni Smith is well within her rights and to my knowledge is not breaking any rule. A person like Geno Auriemma is also well within his rights to be pissed off, expressing being pissed off about it [is his right] and enforce teams periodicals as he sees fit (without braking a rule or the law)[is within his power as coach].
Distinguished from the situation in the NBA a few years ago: In that instance the Macmood (Sp.?) was breaking an NBA rule by refusing to stand (NBA rules do not demand one respect the flag or the anthem, just one stands during the anthem) for the playing of the anthem. He could likely have done exactly want Toni Smith is doing and escape sanction. Hence, he was punished for not standing, not for his views or substance of his protest.
Frankly I support Toni Smith and the views she is expressing; perhaps next time when I'm at a sporting event I hope to show the same courage and conviction of my views. However, in a twist I irony, I might stand for the anthem to show my support for Toni Smith's right to do want she is doing.
posted by Bag Man at 8:11 AM on February 28, 2003
I don't think I speak for most Americans, but I am ambivalent about the practice [of facing the flag and listening to the nation anthem (be it the US one or the Canadian one)]. On one hand, I love the ideals of my country and what to celebrate them. On the other hand, doing so before a sports event seems a bit odd.
Update: Geno Auriemma of Uconn said he wouldn't allow a player on his team to turn away from the American flag during the national anthem.
Frankly this a hard situation because everyone is right. Toni Smith is well within her rights and to my knowledge is not breaking any rule. A person like Geno Auriemma is also well within his rights to be pissed off, expressing being pissed off about it [is his right] and enforce teams periodicals as he sees fit (without braking a rule or the law)[is within his power as coach].
Distinguished from the situation in the NBA a few years ago: In that instance the Macmood (Sp.?) was breaking an NBA rule by refusing to stand (NBA rules do not demand one respect the flag or the anthem, just one stands during the anthem) for the playing of the anthem. He could likely have done exactly want Toni Smith is doing and escape sanction. Hence, he was punished for not standing, not for his views or substance of his protest.
Frankly I support Toni Smith and the views she is expressing; perhaps next time when I'm at a sporting event I hope to show the same courage and conviction of my views. However, in a twist I irony, I might stand for the anthem to show my support for Toni Smith's right to do want she is doing.
posted by Bag Man at 8:11 AM on February 28, 2003
Why does it matter to you if she salutes or faces the flag or not? Why is it any of your business that she is making her own personal protest in this manner? She's not stopping you from saluting the flag, her actions do not affect you directly at all.
Honestly, this story doesn't bother me much at all. Certainly, she has a right to not face the flag (I don't think anyone is disputing that). However, I think the above arguement is a bit silly. Going by that logic, a sizeable number of Metafilter discussions probably wouldn't even occur at all. Hmm, that could be a good thing...
posted by Stauf at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2003
Honestly, this story doesn't bother me much at all. Certainly, she has a right to not face the flag (I don't think anyone is disputing that). However, I think the above arguement is a bit silly. Going by that logic, a sizeable number of Metafilter discussions probably wouldn't even occur at all. Hmm, that could be a good thing...
posted by Stauf at 8:22 AM on February 28, 2003
Update: Geno Auriemma of Uconn said he wouldn't allow a player on his team to turn away from the American flag during the national anthem
It isn't any of his damn business. His business is how well people play basketball, his business does not include vetting the political opinions or expression of the players or anyone else.
Not to mention that he's proposing to strip people of a state-provided benefit, their scholarship, on the basis of their political expression. Doesn't fly.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:14 AM on February 28, 2003
It isn't any of his damn business. His business is how well people play basketball, his business does not include vetting the political opinions or expression of the players or anyone else.
Not to mention that he's proposing to strip people of a state-provided benefit, their scholarship, on the basis of their political expression. Doesn't fly.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:14 AM on February 28, 2003
It isn't any of his damn business.
As a person with a right to express his point of view he can make it his business if he wants to.
Not to mention that he's proposing to strip people of a state-provided benefit, their scholarship, on the basis of their political expression. Doesn't fly.
ROU_Xenophobe, very good point. However, I don't think that Auriemma has the power to do such an act. Something like that would be up to Unconn's athletic director. Further, constitutional guarantees of free speech in colleges, even state ones, are limited to those areas that resemble traditional town squares. Unfortunately, in most other parts of a school the administration is much more free regulate, subject to other restraints.
Further the article states:
Auriemma also told the newspaper that he would allow Smith to protest a possible war with Iraq or inequalities in the American system
It seems that Auriemma is not opposed to Smith's viewpoint at all. Nevertheless Auriemma has not crossed the line into action, so that issue doesn't need to be reached. So, he can say all he wants to say, that's what was my point about him being in the right along with Smith
As for Smith: fight on.
posted by Bag Man at 10:57 AM on February 28, 2003
As a person with a right to express his point of view he can make it his business if he wants to.
Not to mention that he's proposing to strip people of a state-provided benefit, their scholarship, on the basis of their political expression. Doesn't fly.
ROU_Xenophobe, very good point. However, I don't think that Auriemma has the power to do such an act. Something like that would be up to Unconn's athletic director. Further, constitutional guarantees of free speech in colleges, even state ones, are limited to those areas that resemble traditional town squares. Unfortunately, in most other parts of a school the administration is much more free regulate, subject to other restraints.
Further the article states:
Auriemma also told the newspaper that he would allow Smith to protest a possible war with Iraq or inequalities in the American system
It seems that Auriemma is not opposed to Smith's viewpoint at all. Nevertheless Auriemma has not crossed the line into action, so that issue doesn't need to be reached. So, he can say all he wants to say, that's what was my point about him being in the right along with Smith
As for Smith: fight on.
posted by Bag Man at 10:57 AM on February 28, 2003
i never, ever stand or even stop talking during the national anthem at sporting events, and i rarely get much shit for it. maybe some awkward stares, but i refuse to participate in a spectacle that, like ROU_Xenophobe, i just can't get. aren't the ways in which these manufactured collective identities are arbitrary obvious to people? i would feel embarrassed if i stood up and worshipped nylon.
i'm curious as to what it is about this particular symbol that gets people so excited. it really triggers people's natural desire to feel as if they are being offended. does it really matter if someone wants to clean their toilet with a picture of my mother? only if I decide it does.
so do (and say) whatever you like, just clean up afterwords.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:15 AM on February 28, 2003
i'm curious as to what it is about this particular symbol that gets people so excited. it really triggers people's natural desire to feel as if they are being offended. does it really matter if someone wants to clean their toilet with a picture of my mother? only if I decide it does.
so do (and say) whatever you like, just clean up afterwords.
posted by Ignatius J. Reilly at 11:15 AM on February 28, 2003
Going by that logic, a sizeable number of Metafilter discussions probably wouldn't even occur at all.
How do you figure that? I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, I'm just saying that getting all bent out of shape and offended about her doing this is weird. It's nobody's business but her own, and how does it harm anyone else, why be offended by someone else's respectful protest? Note that this would be different, as others have pointed out, if she were taking some action to disrupt others' flag-respecting ceremonies, but she's not.
posted by biscotti at 11:16 AM on February 28, 2003
How do you figure that? I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss it, I'm just saying that getting all bent out of shape and offended about her doing this is weird. It's nobody's business but her own, and how does it harm anyone else, why be offended by someone else's respectful protest? Note that this would be different, as others have pointed out, if she were taking some action to disrupt others' flag-respecting ceremonies, but she's not.
posted by biscotti at 11:16 AM on February 28, 2003
i never, ever stand or even stop talking during the national anthem at sporting events, and i rarely get much shit for it. maybe some awkward stares...
So basically your just a pompous ass with a schoolboy political philosophy and a need to constantly be the center of attention. Its a simple concept. We call it respect. Lack of it tends to get certain segments of society rather angry. Perhaps you just haven't had the pleasure of standing in front of a group of (for example) military veterans while you exercised your right to be a dickweed.
posted by cmdnc0 at 12:42 PM on February 28, 2003
So basically your just a pompous ass with a schoolboy political philosophy and a need to constantly be the center of attention. Its a simple concept. We call it respect. Lack of it tends to get certain segments of society rather angry. Perhaps you just haven't had the pleasure of standing in front of a group of (for example) military veterans while you exercised your right to be a dickweed.
posted by cmdnc0 at 12:42 PM on February 28, 2003
It isn't any of his damn business.
As a person with a right to express his point of view he can make it his business if he wants to.
He can say anything that it pleases his little heart to say about it. Sure, it's his business that far.
But he (or the athletic director) shouldn't be able to allow or disallow a player from facing any way that it pleases her to face during the anthem, as he said he would. Which way players face when they're not actually playing basketball is none of anyone's fucking business but their own as far as preventing or allowing it goes. I suppose it would be relevant if Smith were on a flag-facing team, but I don't think that Manhattanville or UConn are likely to have flag-facing teams anytime soon, and Auriella isn't the coach of a flag-facing team.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:52 PM on February 28, 2003
As a person with a right to express his point of view he can make it his business if he wants to.
He can say anything that it pleases his little heart to say about it. Sure, it's his business that far.
But he (or the athletic director) shouldn't be able to allow or disallow a player from facing any way that it pleases her to face during the anthem, as he said he would. Which way players face when they're not actually playing basketball is none of anyone's fucking business but their own as far as preventing or allowing it goes. I suppose it would be relevant if Smith were on a flag-facing team, but I don't think that Manhattanville or UConn are likely to have flag-facing teams anytime soon, and Auriella isn't the coach of a flag-facing team.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:52 PM on February 28, 2003
So basically your just a pompous ass with a schoolboy political philosophy and a need to constantly be the center of attention.
It's possible that someone might refuse to stand or sing the anthem for that reason, I suppose. There are other reasons too, to wit:
I'll stand to avoid being spat on and to be polite (as I would at a sporting event in, say, France where they played their anthem), but I won't sing the anthem. As far as I am concerned, it isn't my anthem -- if they play the anthem for the Kingdom, whatever that might be, I'll sing along, but I'm not going to offer praise-hymns to Caesar because Caesar isn't my lord. Nor am I going to genuflect for his cloth idols or priests, and I'm for damn sure not going to pledge my allegiance to him. Whatever he drives (my own bet is a nice little roadster), Christ's car doesn't have an American flag on the bumper.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:01 PM on February 28, 2003
It's possible that someone might refuse to stand or sing the anthem for that reason, I suppose. There are other reasons too, to wit:
I'll stand to avoid being spat on and to be polite (as I would at a sporting event in, say, France where they played their anthem), but I won't sing the anthem. As far as I am concerned, it isn't my anthem -- if they play the anthem for the Kingdom, whatever that might be, I'll sing along, but I'm not going to offer praise-hymns to Caesar because Caesar isn't my lord. Nor am I going to genuflect for his cloth idols or priests, and I'm for damn sure not going to pledge my allegiance to him. Whatever he drives (my own bet is a nice little roadster), Christ's car doesn't have an American flag on the bumper.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:01 PM on February 28, 2003
Which way players face when they're not actually playing basketball is none of anyone's fucking business but their own as far as preventing or allowing it goes.
ROU_Xenophobe, this of course depends any rules that Uconn has does not have. I suspect any rules the NCAA regulates regarding conduct during the playing of the anthem and a particular school. And since the NCAA has not sanctioned Smith, I don't think any coach would have a valid reason (and thus no power) to change a player’s status based their peaceful conduct during the nation anthem.
As I stated above, I think playing national anthem before games is a bit silly. Sometimes I stand and sometimes I don't. Honestly, because I think it’s so silly I try to avoid being in the seating area of arena when the song plays. I strongly disagree with ROU_Xenophobe that the national anthem ceremony is akin to hailing a God or some kind of monarch. It’s a symbol and lot of people rally around a symbol, much as my fellow anti-war protesters rallied around the piece sign or an anarchist would display the red "A" on a black flag or shirt. It’s really the same thing. Instead of displaying a whole philosophy, one waves flag or carries a sign (it’s a lot easier). The flag after all, merely represents the freedoms we say we collectively believe in. As a "pompous ass with a schoolboy political philosophy" I like the ideals that my country purports to represent. One manifestation of this belief to stand for the anthem and face the flag and another to do exactly what Smith is doing. The freedom to choose between those options tends to make ROU_Xenophobe unsatisfactory.
posted by Bag Man at 3:00 PM on February 28, 2003
ROU_Xenophobe, this of course depends any rules that Uconn has does not have. I suspect any rules the NCAA regulates regarding conduct during the playing of the anthem and a particular school. And since the NCAA has not sanctioned Smith, I don't think any coach would have a valid reason (and thus no power) to change a player’s status based their peaceful conduct during the nation anthem.
As I stated above, I think playing national anthem before games is a bit silly. Sometimes I stand and sometimes I don't. Honestly, because I think it’s so silly I try to avoid being in the seating area of arena when the song plays. I strongly disagree with ROU_Xenophobe that the national anthem ceremony is akin to hailing a God or some kind of monarch. It’s a symbol and lot of people rally around a symbol, much as my fellow anti-war protesters rallied around the piece sign or an anarchist would display the red "A" on a black flag or shirt. It’s really the same thing. Instead of displaying a whole philosophy, one waves flag or carries a sign (it’s a lot easier). The flag after all, merely represents the freedoms we say we collectively believe in. As a "pompous ass with a schoolboy political philosophy" I like the ideals that my country purports to represent. One manifestation of this belief to stand for the anthem and face the flag and another to do exactly what Smith is doing. The freedom to choose between those options tends to make ROU_Xenophobe unsatisfactory.
posted by Bag Man at 3:00 PM on February 28, 2003
The freedom to choose between those options tends to make ROU_Xenophobe unsatisfactory.
Sorry I wanted to say: The freedom to choose between those options tends to make ROU_Xenophobe's argument unsatisfactory.
posted by Bag Man at 3:03 PM on February 28, 2003
Sorry I wanted to say: The freedom to choose between those options tends to make ROU_Xenophobe's argument unsatisfactory.
posted by Bag Man at 3:03 PM on February 28, 2003
ROU_Xenophobe, this of course depends any rules that Uconn has does not have. I suspect any rules the NCAA regulates regarding conduct during the playing of the anthem and a particular school.
Indeed. Though I'd find any rules about that objectionable. I can see rules about sportsmanlike conduct WRT to the officials and the other players, but I can't see any good reason why there should be a rule about flag-saluting. If it were a truly private organization, I'd say that it's their business, but the state's dollars are involved.
As far as the other thing goes, I only wanted to point out that while some people might not-sing because they're eeeeevil jackasses, other people might not-sing for (their own) religious beliefs. While many others might not agree that singing the anthem or saying the pledge are idolatrous, they're close enough for me, so I won't do it (even though I'll stand to be polite (and not get beat up))
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:56 PM on February 28, 2003
Indeed. Though I'd find any rules about that objectionable. I can see rules about sportsmanlike conduct WRT to the officials and the other players, but I can't see any good reason why there should be a rule about flag-saluting. If it were a truly private organization, I'd say that it's their business, but the state's dollars are involved.
As far as the other thing goes, I only wanted to point out that while some people might not-sing because they're eeeeevil jackasses, other people might not-sing for (their own) religious beliefs. While many others might not agree that singing the anthem or saying the pledge are idolatrous, they're close enough for me, so I won't do it (even though I'll stand to be polite (and not get beat up))
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:56 PM on February 28, 2003
This seems like a classic "Catch 22" situation. We will let you hold a different opinion until and unless it causes problems. Who determines what is a problem? We do, of course.
I heard a preacher the other day saying that anti-war protesters are dishonoring the countless sacrifices U.S. soldiers have made to guarantee their freedom to protest. So, you do have the freedom to protest--just don't do it--because we will call you on it.
I weep at the logic and wish there were millions more people like this girl willing to make a statement for freedom that builds on the sacrifices others have made. Otherwise, we don't have a democracy--we have a gang. And gangs are built on coercion, hierarchy, and loyalty. Step out of line--or turn 90 degrees away--and you have just relinquished your gang membership.
posted by newlydead at 7:48 AM on March 1, 2003
I heard a preacher the other day saying that anti-war protesters are dishonoring the countless sacrifices U.S. soldiers have made to guarantee their freedom to protest. So, you do have the freedom to protest--just don't do it--because we will call you on it.
I weep at the logic and wish there were millions more people like this girl willing to make a statement for freedom that builds on the sacrifices others have made. Otherwise, we don't have a democracy--we have a gang. And gangs are built on coercion, hierarchy, and loyalty. Step out of line--or turn 90 degrees away--and you have just relinquished your gang membership.
posted by newlydead at 7:48 AM on March 1, 2003
As far as the other thing goes, I only wanted to point out that while some people might not-sing because they're eeeeevil jackasses, other people might not-sing for (their own) religious beliefs. While many others might not agree that singing the anthem or saying the pledge are idolatrous, they're close enough for me, so I won't do it (even though I'll stand to be polite (and not get beat up))
I've never been to a sporting event where spectators are expected to sing the anthem (the U.S. National Anthem is especially horrid when it comes to singability).
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:31 AM on March 1, 2003
I've never been to a sporting event where spectators are expected to sing the anthem (the U.S. National Anthem is especially horrid when it comes to singability).
posted by KirkJobSluder at 9:31 AM on March 1, 2003
We will let you hold a different opinion until and unless it causes problems. Who determines what is a problem? We do, of course.
Good as an overall point, many MIFIers should study it. However, in the instance case Smith is being allowed to do what she is doing and those that disagree with her are merely expressing their disagreement. No one is in the wrong and it's an example of people having a debate. Since Smith has not been sanctioned, I don't see how this statement applies.
As for any rules the NCAA might have for behavior during the anthem: To my knowledge they have none. However if they do they are not made to indoctrinate, they are likely done for decorum reasons.
P.S. I love the irony: ROU_Xenophobe seems to suggest that the purpose of anthem ceremonies are to indoctrinate the participants. But indoctrinate what? To indoctrinate ideals witch demand freethinking and free expression; that seems to run counter to the purpose of indoctrination.
posted by Bag Man at 7:38 PM on March 1, 2003
Good as an overall point, many MIFIers should study it. However, in the instance case Smith is being allowed to do what she is doing and those that disagree with her are merely expressing their disagreement. No one is in the wrong and it's an example of people having a debate. Since Smith has not been sanctioned, I don't see how this statement applies.
As for any rules the NCAA might have for behavior during the anthem: To my knowledge they have none. However if they do they are not made to indoctrinate, they are likely done for decorum reasons.
P.S. I love the irony: ROU_Xenophobe seems to suggest that the purpose of anthem ceremonies are to indoctrinate the participants. But indoctrinate what? To indoctrinate ideals witch demand freethinking and free expression; that seems to run counter to the purpose of indoctrination.
posted by Bag Man at 7:38 PM on March 1, 2003
So, we are culturally pressed to pose for, and sing to, a totem; a totem which, in part, symbolizes our right to not have to pose for, and sing to, a totem...the search for intelligent life goes on...
posted by Opus Dark at 11:28 PM on March 1, 2003
posted by Opus Dark at 11:28 PM on March 1, 2003
...the search for intelligent life goes on...
No Opus Dark, the great ideals of free society are not easy to deal with. The very existence of such a debate tends prove that intelligent life goes on. Or should we follow other so called democracies (who currently oppose the war) and ban certain classes of speech, ban political parties and enforce government symbols by law? I'd rather have the debate.
posted by Bag Man at 9:41 AM on March 2, 2003
No Opus Dark, the great ideals of free society are not easy to deal with. The very existence of such a debate tends prove that intelligent life goes on. Or should we follow other so called democracies (who currently oppose the war) and ban certain classes of speech, ban political parties and enforce government symbols by law? I'd rather have the debate.
posted by Bag Man at 9:41 AM on March 2, 2003
Poor Toni Smith. Unable to stand at attention and face the American flag. Such a disgraceful country we have. Yet she still chooses to live here. I wonder how she can stand it at night when she goes to bed? Yet the closer I looked, the less I saw of Toni Smith's America. All I saw was a country that lost over a million lives to close Nazi death camps, liberate France (twice, thank you), save South Korea, stare down communism, rebuild Europe and Japan, liberate Kuwait, and stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. And how much land did America lay claim to after all these conflicts of the 20th century? Aside from an island here or there, nothing. And aside from Afghanistan, we do not occupy any country that hasn't explicitly asked for us to be there as protection.
posted by Macboy at 5:53 PM on March 11, 2003
posted by Macboy at 5:53 PM on March 11, 2003
« Older Freedom and the Future. | On the 50th anniversary Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by Space Coyote at 4:54 PM on February 27, 2003