Homosexuality is a sin?
July 11, 2000 10:21 AM   Subscribe

Homosexuality is a sin? I swear to God I never would have thought that the percentage of ignorant homophobes could be this high. I know this topic has been raked over the coals here, but I am sincerely shocked. Can these numbers be right? Do half the people here think that gays will all go to hell?
posted by y6y6y6 (37 comments total)
 
Just cuz it's a sin don't mean yer goin' to hell. =) Little white lies don't automatically mean hell. There's actually only one unforgivable sin, and that ain't it.

Besides, if you don't think it's wrong, don't worry about what others think.
posted by ZachsMind at 10:31 AM on July 11, 2000


People are freaks.

These polls appeal to the people that have a problem with it. If I just happened to pass by this poll today, I'd laugh it off as a pointless question and not answer.

Anyone who answered "yes" to the poll should read stuff like this story of a woman who came out to her parents and was shunned. Any parent that ignores their own child like that deserves to be shot.
posted by mathowie at 10:39 AM on July 11, 2000


Well the bible does definatly suggest that it is a sin. That whole thing about Sodom, and all. But I think that people can believe whatever they want. I mean, I was born a Catholic, but that really doesn't mean anything. What if I was born a Buddhist? I would have been raised under completely different morals and beliefs. So who cares if a bunch of Christian homophobs think all homosexuals are going to hell? Does that mean you have to believe it too? Hell no! (no pun intended) People saying things you don't like? Ignore them. That's the only solution, because you're not going to change them and you're not going to get them to shut up.
posted by deckard at 10:44 AM on July 11, 2000


this woman's story sounds familiar. my own mother freaked and prayed over a bible for weeks when i came out at 15. that started a whole avalanche of nastiness in my family which lasted for years.

then, surprisingly, when i was 21, mom made some sort of pact with herself and has since been the most supportive parent a kid could ever know.

she's now best friends with her gay next door neighbor, and takes as much care of my ex-boyfriend (who is now my best friend after four years of dating) as she would either of her two biological sons.

people *do* change, and they can delight you.
posted by patricking at 10:49 AM on July 11, 2000


I've often wondered myself how many times I'm going to go to hell for the things I've done. MOR people may not be as offended by homosexuality as the more vocal hardliners.

Interesting that for a religion that has origins in acceptance of all, and sharing God's love with everyone, it's been bastardized to what it is now.

of course, I'm a misanthrope anyway, so that's two counts against me I guess.
posted by tanasil at 10:53 AM on July 11, 2000


"don't worry about what others think"
"People saying things you don't like? Ignore them. That's the only solution"

I guess I jut have a real problem with sweeping things like that under the rug. So you really think it better to not shine a light on this? Don't talk about it and everything will be fine? Sorry. I can't do that.

I don't mind Christians believing whatever they want. It's their religion and if they think God hates gays, then that's what they think. But I won't just stand by and not rub their nose in it. Just as they think it's their duty to follow "God's Word", I feel it's my duty to tell them how wrong this is.

Feel free to just ignore me though.
posted by y6y6y6 at 10:57 AM on July 11, 2000


A lot of small-minded preachers have taken the story of "Sodom & Gomorrah" (Genesis 18 & 19) to be the end all/be all stance on homosexuality.

The point that was missed was that the crowd of men wanted to rape the two strangers in Lot's house (Genesis 19:4).

And I think we can all agree on this board, rape is definitely a sin, in any form....

Sodom simply had wicked, evil people who did as they pleased (stole, killed, raped...), and that's where God had the problem, and destroyed both cities. His Angels couldn't find 50 godfearing people in both cities combined... (Genesis 18:26).

NYC & L.A. isn't even that bad.....
When Jesus was here (with all due respect to other religions here, this is from the point of view as an imperfect Christian)...

... he hung out with what we considered "the lowest people on earth". He never condemned anyone's lifestyles or choices.

And neither should we.
Though it is kinda fun, sometimes.

posted by EricBrooksDotCom at 11:07 AM on July 11, 2000


This poll isn't exactly taking a random sampling of the population here. Excite users with a strong enough opinion about homosexuality to take the poll represent a very small (and extremely specific) sector of the population. Taking these results and extrapolating them to fit another population (global, American, or online, for example) is not statistically accurate at all. Not even a little.

A random sampling of 500 people from the population at large would yield much better results (meaning more statistically significant) than the 62,000 votes collected here. Ignore these results and move on.
posted by jkottke at 11:34 AM on July 11, 2000


Any word of "god" channeled through someone's pen is going to come out as an interpretation. Minus whatever the writer couldn't bring himself to write down at all. I view things that have aged in the same way I look at the milk in my refrigerator that went past it's due date. I've read large portions of the Bible and really had to struggle through the tedious ravings of Leviticus. I'd like to start evolving ideas then carry a corpse of beliefs around.
posted by john at 11:37 AM on July 11, 2000


--But I won't just stand by and not rub their nose in it. Just as they think it's their duty to follow "God's Word", I feel it's my duty to tell them how wrong this is.--

y6y6y6, don't you think the same 'tolerance' of different 'lifestyles' that homosexuals [and others] ask for should be afforded to 'Christians' as well??
posted by chiXy at 12:07 PM on July 11, 2000


"don't you think the same 'tolerance' ... should be afforded to 'Christians' as well??"

No.

Just like I don't think I should tolerate the KKK's contention that blacks are inferior because of their genes, I don't think I should tolerate Christians who think gays are immoral because of something they have no control over.

I tolerate Christians just fine. It's just when they use their religion to defend bigoted ideas that I have a problem.

I've found what patricking is talking about to be very true. I think most Christians think gays are immoral just because they don't think past what they've been told. If you talk to them about it they will sometimes come to a new understanding.
posted by y6y6y6 at 12:24 PM on July 11, 2000


As a practicing homosexual, the notion of going to hell doesn't really faze me. After all, by the time I have to concern myself with the afterlife, hell will probably be the only place left where I can light up a cigarette without dirty looks and faux coughing noises from others.
posted by bradlands at 12:24 PM on July 11, 2000


Looking forward to heaven or hell is a lame excuse to not live right now. Not that you are doing that, just making a point. Though it is a good excuse to be true to yourself rather then live by majority opinion.

I love the term "practicing" in that context. When are you going to be an expert? I hate thinking that might doctor is practicing.
posted by john at 12:37 PM on July 11, 2000


"Interesting that for a religion that has origins in acceptance of all, and sharing God's love with
everyone, it's been bastardized to what it is now."

well, tanasil, as far i know Christianity has always hated sin, and for that matter so has God. mercy is a blessing undeserved.


posted by alethe at 1:01 PM on July 11, 2000


religion, bah-humbug
posted by dominic at 2:08 PM on July 11, 2000


Christians don't hate homosexuals. Or anyone else, for that matter.

Jerks running around condeming everyone and deluding themselves into believing that they're Christians when they're really just jackasses holding on to a perversion of faith, do.
posted by jason at 2:17 PM on July 11, 2000


Christianity only has as much power as you lend it.
posted by solistrato at 2:56 PM on July 11, 2000


Amen brother Jason! I'll put some money in the offering plate in your name...

y6y6y6 -- I could not agree more with you --
"I think most Christians think gays are immoral just because they don't think past what they've been told."

I like the way you put that. I think you are right on the money with that. They don't THINK at all. They just live with what they have been told/taught. And it scares them to (GASP!) think on their own.

I always found religion to be a crutch for weak minds.


posted by chiXy at 3:07 PM on July 11, 2000



Ugh, too much to say for Metafilter.

John, once you've practiced enough, you'll be contacted by the secret gay society to take the official gay test. But I've already said too much …
posted by alan at 3:22 PM on July 11, 2000


*sigh* A lot of us think well on our own thank you. Don't bunch all Christians in with the Catholics. And don't think that all Christians believe only what they are told and taught. That may be true for Catholics, but in my church, we are told to question everything, and find the answer.

Is homosexuality a sin? In my mind it is. Does that make me a bigot? Nope. Am I gonna preach to you that you should change? Nope. Change comes from within, not from without.

I sin everyday. Am I going to hell? Nope. I am saved. I will most likely continue to sin everyday until I die, but that won't keep me from going to heaven.

Only Catholics beleive that if you don't receive penance for you sins, or are baptised as a child, that you will go to hell. As well as going to Purgatory for suicide.

Anyways, I await the numerous "attacks" I am sure to receive for professing my faith and where MY beliefs lie on this issue.
posted by da5id at 3:32 PM on July 11, 2000


Oh, and one more thing... define a weak mind, cause that old cliche is just that... old.
posted by da5id at 3:33 PM on July 11, 2000


For the record, it is impossible for anyone to defend their position on this issue, without either inadvertently or purposefully smearing it in the face of the opossing side. Stereotypically, homosexuals are not interested in hearing the Christian's side. Homosexuals only want to convince Christians or otherwise insist they shut up, or ignore them entirely. And Christians have a similar viewpoint. Either the homosexual sees the light or burns in hell; how quaint. Two steadfast and immovable viewpoints. Is homosexuality a sin by Christianity's definition? Absolutely. There is no question that according to Christianity, homosexuality falls under one of the couple hundred thousand things human beings aren't supposed to do.

Allow me to let you in on a little secret: The whole point to Christianity? If if weren't for that JC guy, EVERYONE would be going to hell. You wonder why Christians don't act like angels? Cuz we ain't angels. The ones who tell you they're angels and act like angels in public, they're lying, which is another one of the hundreds of thousands of things we ain't supposed to do.

We're sinners. That's the point. We're sinners but he gave his life, cuz he thought we were worth it, and who am I to argue with him? Will we all burn in hell? Why would he go through all that trouble just to burn everybody in hell?

And believe me, if gays are gonna burn, we're ALL gonna burn, so I wouldn't worry your little pink triangles over it.

I'd lay money that on Judgement Day, God's gonna make a big scene and scare everybody (cuz he's a prankster), then he's gonna laugh and open the gates to just about everybody

I say I would lay money on it, but y'know... Gambling's wrong too. (twenty bucks! any takers?) Basically God's gonna open the Pearly Gates to anyone who wants in. However, there is only one sin that is unforgivable; to irrefutely deny God and embrace Lucifer. And to do that I think you have to actually invite Lucy over for drinks and sign a bunch of contracts in blood or something. I mean even Aetheists can get off on a technicality. God never said you HAD to have blind faith: just that it would help. He offers the door to people, but He don't make you have to walk in. That's entirely up to you.

God didn't say, "thou must suffereth." It's quite the opposite. The guidelines in the Bible are there because your life will be less dangerous and more enjoyable if you choose to live by them. You can CHOOSE to do what you want. That's what the whole point of life is. God don't want a bunch of yes-men. Remember when your parents made all those absurd rules like the curfew and who you could or couldn't hang with or that you had to do your homework and crap like that. And sometimes you went along with it and sometimes you rebelled. Did your own thing. Life got more complicated after awhile when you went off and did your own thing, didn't it? However, what most parents fail to realize is a kid has to figure this shit out on his own. Lessons are best learned and remembered from experience.

Tell you what. Just watch Dogma again. That movie got closer to it than this one did.
posted by ZachsMind at 3:44 PM on July 11, 2000


question from secret gay test:

multiple choice. you already know the question.
A) brunch
B) tokenism
C) daniel goddard
D) shoes


(correct answer is "yes, please.")


posted by patricking at 4:22 PM on July 11, 2000


And don't bunch all Catholics in with the Catholic Church's teachings. We Papists have constructed a nifty doublethink which allows us to accept that the Church has to offer moral absolutism as doctrine (and let's face it, the Church regards all sex as a dirty filthy sinful thing, only vindicated if it produces more Catholics) while turning a blind eye on more tolerant attitudes in the field. That applies to homosexuality as it does to contraception: if it didn't, it'd be even harder to find candidates for ordination.

And I can't believe for a second that gays go to Hell: after all, the Book of Revelation suggests that Down There has such awful interior decorating.
posted by holgate at 4:39 PM on July 11, 2000


It's very simple.

The Savior replied, "There is no such thing as sin; rather, you yourselves are what produces sin when you act according to the nature of adultery, which is called 'sin.' For this reason, the Good came among you approaching what
belongs to every nature. It will set it within its root." Then he continued. He said, "This is why you get sick and die, for you love what deceives you. Anyone with a mind should use it to think! Matter gave birth to a passion
which has no true image because it derives from what is contrary to nature. Then a disturbing confusion occurred in the whole body. That is why I told you, 'Be content of heart.' And do not conform, but form yourselves in the presence of that other image of nature. Anyone with two ears capable of hearing should listen!"

The Gospel of Mary of Magdala, 3: 3-14

Once you've done the reading, you realize that Christ himself repeatedly forbade his followers from calling anyone a sinner, from forming an organized faith of any kind or from doing aught but working by themselves to achieve union with God. Sure, this was in what I laughingly call the Unexpurgated Bible, not that hacked-up travesty the Council of Nicaea produced, and which strangely enough every Christian group in the world hews to as if it were divine, instead of what it is, which is the tainted editing of a group of men in fear of Constantine.

There is no sin. Jesus said so. If you worship him, there is no sin. So our fancily-chapeaued friend in Rome can say all he wants...we can go over his head.
posted by Ezrael at 5:59 PM on July 11, 2000


(First, let me start by saying I am relatively new here, so don't flame me for that. Thanks. :)

What almost everyone here seems to be missing is that according to Christianty it is not just homosexuality that is a sin, but so are HETEROsexual relations outside of marriage.

In other words, it isn't homophobic per say-- it is the fact that intercourse is something to be saved for marriage. And, yes, most Christian doctine states that marriage is between man and woman (only). This is beside the point in this discussion, however, as one sin will condemn you just as much as a million. That is what Christ's death and resurrection was for -- to wash the sins away.

So for those saying that it is the ACT of homosexual sex that Christians say is the sin are offbase-- intercourse between man and woman would be equally sinful under the same conditions.

As for Ezrael's comment about there being no sin, I have two thougts--

1. For the born again Christian that might be true. If you believe that Christ was slain and rose again to pay for sin, then technically there is no sin for the believer as Christ had already paid for all sin. This, however, is not a license to sin as much as one would like.

2. Chances may be very good that there was some error when compiling the Bible (as someone else said, Christians are not angels and therefore are quite faliable) and perhaps some books were indeed left out or not even discovered when it was compiled. But which is the wiser course of action-- to condone more freedom in the chance that the council was wrong (and therefore risk eternal punishment, according to what IS in the council's compilation) or to deny yourself some things on earth to ensure that you are prepared for the afterlife?

I don't pretend to have the answers; I am just thinking aloud in the hope that it might spark some further thought and conversation on the part of others (and myself).

Thanks for your time!
posted by tsitzlar at 6:16 PM on July 11, 2000


It is an utter misinterpretation (of either testament) for folks to go around saying that any specific group of people are hated by G-d, because the very source that they use to validate that claim denies it. G-d doesn't hate any person, He hates it when we do things that displease Him -- which is the essence of sin, doing that which angers/saddens G-d -- which everyone is equally guilty of, regardless of who/what/how/where you identify or align yourself.
posted by Dreama at 6:30 PM on July 11, 2000


tsitzlar - The books were left out, and quite deliberately, too. The Scholars' Version project grew out of the Jesus Seminars, and outlines some of the interesting stuff growing out of their research.

However, let me not become a shill for these people. I like the fact that they translate stuff more than their sometimes whacky ideas about Paul Verhoeven making a movie about Jesus. Check out this article to see how crazy they can get. Basically, what I'm saying is this: I have read the books. All of them. Over and over again. And nowhere do I see anything that gives anyone, be he Oral Roberts or the Pontiff, the right to make these kinds of judgements. Where these books don't contradict themselves, they grow out of ancient traditions that no longer hold water or even maintain beliefs (such as the Nephilim) that even the most literal-minded believers seem to abandon.

For myself, I'll take what Jesus himself said over what Tertullian did, or what John Paul does. But as I've argued dozens of times before, I speak for myself here, no one else.
posted by Ezrael at 6:39 PM on July 11, 2000


In the end, it's all about belief. I don't believe
homosexuality is a sin. I don't believe that half the people
here believe that gays will go to hell, either.
posted by Lynsey at 8:07 PM on July 11, 2000


"Judge not, lest ye be judged" -Matthew 7:1-

(Coming to the defense of Brother Ezrael ... with the book of Matthew, how ironic.)

Sure I was homophobic when I was 14. Then I grew up and realized it's what's in a person's heart that counts. The same thing that God looks at.

While we're at it...
I don't believe in an ever-burning Hell either. Several words were hastily translated into hell... majority of them meant "the grave"

Constantine incorporated a lot of Roman Mythology into Catholic/Christian doctrine to make it more mainstream and acceptable to Roman customs: hades became hell, Venerablii de soleil (sunday) became the official day of worship, gods became patron saints, and Peter became the first Pope 500 years after his death.
posted by EricBrooksDotCom at 8:58 PM on July 11, 2000


Oh Boy, didn't THAT go down hill
it was going quite well for a while until
all the christians came out of the wood work
and got into outdoctrining each other
(as usual)
Read as much text as you want, how about starting with the Epic of Gilgamesh, which is much, much older than the silly old bible.
But let's face it, people, you're all just going to be worm bait!

posted by lagado at 11:28 PM on July 11, 2000


Amen to that.
posted by Mocata at 2:42 AM on July 12, 2000


not to be rude, but Mocata, is that a supportive comment or not??!!??
If someone wants to be gay then let them. They can sleep with who they want and if your not gay it wont be you so dont worry.
posted by pehtes at 5:39 AM on July 12, 2000


I think half of the homosexuals are going to hell.

Then again, so are more than half of the heterosexuals.

If there is a hell, that is.

But, uh, that logic would mean less homosexuals are going to hell than heterosexuals.

Actually, I think only Catholics are going to hell, because we're the only ones who are supposed to believe in it in the first place.

Maybe if I got excummunicated...
posted by rich at 1:55 PM on July 12, 2000


Rich: You're ecommunicated. You can thank me later. I personally think you all should come join Rossianity, and I'd provide a link to it, but that would violate the metafilter ethic, so I won't. It's at my page, which you can get to by clicking on my name. Type "Rossianity" into the search function or just browse the archives till you find it.

Rossianity is all-encompassing. We preach nothing. We have no doctrine. We have no services. We're willing to promise you anything you want, because we admit up front that we don't intend to deliver on any of them. We have no idea what comes after death, if anything. We encourage you to make your own decisions. We may eventually have T-Shirts, if I can get Portia de Rossi on board as Rossianity's spokeswoman. (Look, it was her or Carlo Rossi, okay?)

Rossianity. It's the only choice you'll never have to make.
posted by Ezrael at 8:13 PM on July 12, 2000


1.) Sodom and Gomorrah is NOT about homosexuality. This may seem messed-up now, but it's about hospitality. You do not let your guests be raped by angry mobs. The rest of the city was inhospitable, that was their crime, not homosexuality. Hospitality was important when people were travelling then. For an almost identical story (without homosexuality), see the Greek myth of Baucis and Philemon.

2.) The Bible contains very few attacks on homosexuality, the definitive one is in Leviticus, but Leviticus also tells you not to eat shrimp and how to cut your beard. They are Jewish laws which Christians are not required to follow. Orthodox Jews such as, say, Dr. Laura, on the other hand, follow them :)

3.) Homophobia exists because people are unsure of their own sexuality and overcompensate. At least, that's one reason. That, and people feel the need to hate some group of people for some reason (I think it has something to do with sports).
posted by dagnyscott at 5:01 PM on July 13, 2000


1>
Genesis 13:13
Now the men of Sodom were wicked exceedingly and sinners against the LORD.
Genesis 19:5
and they called to Lot and said to him, " Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have relations with them."

Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because the people there were unrighteous - lack of hosipitality AND sinful relations AND many other sins were factors in their failure to please God and obey his commands.

2>
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

many passages refer to unrighteousness, sin, and improper sexual relations. the above seems "definitive" as well (btw, that's New Testament).

posted by alethe at 1:46 PM on July 14, 2000


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