Just give me a sec
February 26, 2004 11:56 PM Subscribe
World's most stubborn man dies. Fell in yard, insisted he was fine.
I see the world's most accommodating woman survived.
posted by malpractice at 12:58 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by malpractice at 12:58 AM on February 27, 2004
*calls home to check on Dad. Relieved that he's still doing fine, trapped beneath the tractor*
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:00 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:00 AM on February 27, 2004
When you're 83, you should be allowed to do what you want with yourself - even if it means death.
posted by spazzm at 2:13 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by spazzm at 2:13 AM on February 27, 2004
"They wanted to be left alone and we left them alone and maybe we shouldn't have left them alone," neighbor Sherman Brunell said.
bright neighbours.
posted by quarsan at 3:41 AM on February 27, 2004
bright neighbours.
posted by quarsan at 3:41 AM on February 27, 2004
It's just a shame for Mr Darwin that this guy had already had kids...
posted by twine42 at 4:01 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by twine42 at 4:01 AM on February 27, 2004
Some posts rise far above the usual newsfilter fray.....I agree with spazzm - after a certain age, and except in cases of insanity or mental incompetence (a tough call, sure) - people should be left alone to their own outrageous judgement.
"Honey! honey! - I've fallen and I can't get up. I think I might have broken my hip. Could you bring me a sandwich? Roast beef, lettuce and tomato, light on the mustard?....Oh yes, one more thing - I saw on the news this morning that we're going to get some storms this afternoon. Could you throw a tarp over me when you get a chance? Oh, and - could you bring me a couple extra strength Tylenol and a glass of water? I'm sorry to be making so many demands..."
Reality is nipping at the Onion's heels....
Nip ! Nip !
posted by troutfishing at 4:33 AM on February 27, 2004
"Honey! honey! - I've fallen and I can't get up. I think I might have broken my hip. Could you bring me a sandwich? Roast beef, lettuce and tomato, light on the mustard?....Oh yes, one more thing - I saw on the news this morning that we're going to get some storms this afternoon. Could you throw a tarp over me when you get a chance? Oh, and - could you bring me a couple extra strength Tylenol and a glass of water? I'm sorry to be making so many demands..."
Reality is nipping at the Onion's heels....
Nip ! Nip !
posted by troutfishing at 4:33 AM on February 27, 2004
Oh yeah - I don't know if this still holds, but in 1979 inimitable Ivan Illich wrote a scathing expose on iatrogenic medicine called "Medical Nemesis".
This reviewer takes Illich quite severely to task for various types of cherry picking but nonetheless credits another aspect of Illich's criticism :
" apparent exponential growth in health services in the Western world over the last few decades, while subjective feelings of being healthy, such as can be measured by self-assessment of health status or sickness absence rates, seem to deteriorate. This analysis is the opposite of the Inverse Care Law*11, i.e. that non-availability of health services is detrimental to the health of sections of the population. For Illich it is the converse: too great an availability of health services is unhealthy. Liberal health service provision actually encourages people to use the health service more than they ‘really’ need. Over time they gradually become dependent on this over-use, feeling it is a necessary part of being healthy. But, claims Illich, this dependence is itself a form of sickness that undermines the good health of autonomous human beings."
______________________________________________
I think hospitals are terribly perilous places, good to avoid (As the comic chestnut goes -"people die there!" ) especially for the wide variety of antibiotic resistant strains of superbacteria which breed there. Bacteria, it has been shown, are highly "promiscuous or "talkative" : they exchange genetic material, even among somewhat dissimilar bacteria - and this is enabling them to steadily gain ground in the "antibiotic wars". Soon, I suspect - and especially if the American dairy and meat industry continues to refuse to eliminate it's prolific use of antibiotics*, antibiotics will become largely useless.
So hospitals are dangerous places, to be avoided if at all possible, and I wonder about this in the context of the "stubborn man's" death.
______________________________________________
On a personal note : when my wife and I met, I had just cracked (apparently) a few ribs from a fall off a loading dock - which slammed my chest into a big steel dumpster. As tends to happen, this inclined me to shallow breathing and so pneumonia slowly set in. Six months later, I was hacking nonstop and settling into a constant, sweaty, light delirium. I didn't have access to health care, and so a saintly friend gave me an unused broad spectrum antibiotic prescription that knocked the bacteria out. Ten years from now - as far as i can tell - those same antibiotics will be useless and so my next brawl with a dumpster might be the end of me ( slow, ominous drum roll - boom boom boom....)
*especially if the American dairy and meat industry continues to refuse to reduce it's prolific use of antibiotics which tends to breed antibiotic resistant bacteria in the human consumers of such products - who are effectively on a slow antibiotic drip-feed. As these people get sick - they go to hospitals and this then enables their resistant bacterial strains to "talk" to other resistant strains on the hospital.....
posted by troutfishing at 5:02 AM on February 27, 2004
This reviewer takes Illich quite severely to task for various types of cherry picking but nonetheless credits another aspect of Illich's criticism :
" apparent exponential growth in health services in the Western world over the last few decades, while subjective feelings of being healthy, such as can be measured by self-assessment of health status or sickness absence rates, seem to deteriorate. This analysis is the opposite of the Inverse Care Law*11, i.e. that non-availability of health services is detrimental to the health of sections of the population. For Illich it is the converse: too great an availability of health services is unhealthy. Liberal health service provision actually encourages people to use the health service more than they ‘really’ need. Over time they gradually become dependent on this over-use, feeling it is a necessary part of being healthy. But, claims Illich, this dependence is itself a form of sickness that undermines the good health of autonomous human beings."
______________________________________________
I think hospitals are terribly perilous places, good to avoid (As the comic chestnut goes -"people die there!" ) especially for the wide variety of antibiotic resistant strains of superbacteria which breed there. Bacteria, it has been shown, are highly "promiscuous or "talkative" : they exchange genetic material, even among somewhat dissimilar bacteria - and this is enabling them to steadily gain ground in the "antibiotic wars". Soon, I suspect - and especially if the American dairy and meat industry continues to refuse to eliminate it's prolific use of antibiotics*, antibiotics will become largely useless.
So hospitals are dangerous places, to be avoided if at all possible, and I wonder about this in the context of the "stubborn man's" death.
______________________________________________
On a personal note : when my wife and I met, I had just cracked (apparently) a few ribs from a fall off a loading dock - which slammed my chest into a big steel dumpster. As tends to happen, this inclined me to shallow breathing and so pneumonia slowly set in. Six months later, I was hacking nonstop and settling into a constant, sweaty, light delirium. I didn't have access to health care, and so a saintly friend gave me an unused broad spectrum antibiotic prescription that knocked the bacteria out. Ten years from now - as far as i can tell - those same antibiotics will be useless and so my next brawl with a dumpster might be the end of me ( slow, ominous drum roll - boom boom boom....)
*especially if the American dairy and meat industry continues to refuse to reduce it's prolific use of antibiotics which tends to breed antibiotic resistant bacteria in the human consumers of such products - who are effectively on a slow antibiotic drip-feed. As these people get sick - they go to hospitals and this then enables their resistant bacterial strains to "talk" to other resistant strains on the hospital.....
posted by troutfishing at 5:02 AM on February 27, 2004
Damn double text chunks.....
posted by troutfishing at 5:07 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by troutfishing at 5:07 AM on February 27, 2004
I'm so embarrassed for Central Florida. The front page of Local 6 reads like the Onion:
"Man Dies After Lying In Yard For Days Refusing Help"
(MORE: Local6.com Problem Solvers Section)
"Orlando Bars Filmed Serving Liquor To Underage Teen"
(MORE: Local6.com Problem Solvers Section)
"Officials Want Airlines To Weigh Passengers"
posted by bclark at 5:49 AM on February 27, 2004
"Man Dies After Lying In Yard For Days Refusing Help"
(MORE: Local6.com Problem Solvers Section)
"Orlando Bars Filmed Serving Liquor To Underage Teen"
(MORE: Local6.com Problem Solvers Section)
"Officials Want Airlines To Weigh Passengers"
posted by bclark at 5:49 AM on February 27, 2004
bclark - how about : "Drunk Bush daughter found in Orlando dumpster ! (blames permissive liberal culture)" ( hee hee )
posted by troutfishing at 6:02 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by troutfishing at 6:02 AM on February 27, 2004
My dad, one ornery cuss in his early 80's, is like this guy. Luckily my mom doesn't let him get away with doing nothing about his health.
As a matter of fact, my wife is like that that too, which is good since I take after my dad in some respects.
Anyway, the neighbors should be ashamed.
posted by tommasz at 6:54 AM on February 27, 2004
As a matter of fact, my wife is like that that too, which is good since I take after my dad in some respects.
Anyway, the neighbors should be ashamed.
posted by tommasz at 6:54 AM on February 27, 2004
The wife should be ashamed for not getting him help.
posted by agregoli at 6:57 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by agregoli at 6:57 AM on February 27, 2004
Just keep in mind this is probably one of those assholes who get their licenses taken away because they're too old to drive safely anymore, and continue to drive.
The pity meter just totally deflates for me.
posted by angry modem at 7:22 AM on February 27, 2004
The pity meter just totally deflates for me.
posted by angry modem at 7:22 AM on February 27, 2004
i feel so sorry for the wife - i can imagine that, like my grandparents, she was pretty scared of her husband, not wanting to go against his wishes, but, at the same time, being desperately concerned. and then she herself falls and lies there as he dies. fuck. i don't want to get old.
posted by andrew cooke at 7:30 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by andrew cooke at 7:30 AM on February 27, 2004
troutfishing: the sad thing is that I didn't make up any of the headlines I posted :(
posted by bclark at 9:19 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by bclark at 9:19 AM on February 27, 2004
The fact that his wife was so accommodating-- did what he told her to do, no more and no less-- leads me to believe that she was well trained, probably with the help of Mr. Belt and Mr. Fist. A psychologically healthy woman could not have left him lying on the ground while seeing to his comfort for 3 days (!) without calling the paramedics.
So ends the life of another petty tyrant.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:23 AM on February 27, 2004
So ends the life of another petty tyrant.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:23 AM on February 27, 2004
Really. Survived by World's Stupidest Woman, World's Worst Neighbor. They should send the emergency squad out to rescue his neighborhood.
posted by coelecanth at 9:30 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by coelecanth at 9:30 AM on February 27, 2004
For a second I thought I was reading a fark headline.
posted by jeblis at 9:33 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by jeblis at 9:33 AM on February 27, 2004
When the neighbor says "They wanted to be left alone and we left them alone", I'm not sure he's referring to this specific incident. I got the impression that he meant in general they wanted to be left alone, so the neighbors didn't pay much attention to them. If he really did stand by and watch the guy die, he should face some sort of charges--or at least a civil suit by the victim's family. The elderly couple obviously weren't competent to make their own decisions.
posted by jpoulos at 9:46 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by jpoulos at 9:46 AM on February 27, 2004
Indeed, I read it the same way as jpoulos. As in 'Well, sure, nobody saw or heard from them during the days when they were injured in the yard, but by their choice, we never saw or heard from them in the weeks and months before, either.'
posted by jacquilynne at 9:49 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by jacquilynne at 9:49 AM on February 27, 2004
Some totally cool and famous author wrote a short story about this very situation. Only the husband and wife lived in the desert southwest, and I think they both died.
Damned if I can remember who it was, though.
posted by waldo at 10:08 AM on February 27, 2004
Damned if I can remember who it was, though.
posted by waldo at 10:08 AM on February 27, 2004
There's a scene in the film "Nowhere in Africa" where we see an old woman laying near a tree, clearly suffering on the precipice of death. The film's adult female protagonist sees her and wants to help the native woman, but the villagers and her own daughter discourage her adamantly. They do not want her to die in their hut, for it will bring bad luck.
I think it rather presumptious to pass judgement on the old man, stubborn or not.
If you haven't noticed, people live too effing long these days and there are far too many of us on this planet, so if an 83 year old guy wants to check out while lying in his yard in the rain, so be it. Perhaps Modern Society needs to come to terms with death instead of delaying it at all costs.
posted by shoepal at 10:10 AM on February 27, 2004
I think it rather presumptious to pass judgement on the old man, stubborn or not.
If you haven't noticed, people live too effing long these days and there are far too many of us on this planet, so if an 83 year old guy wants to check out while lying in his yard in the rain, so be it. Perhaps Modern Society needs to come to terms with death instead of delaying it at all costs.
posted by shoepal at 10:10 AM on February 27, 2004
Usually, the right to die movement talks about "dying with dignity", and I fully support that. But dying under a muddy tarp in the back yard isn't all that dignified. I think it's likely the man's mind wasn't exactly up to snuff. I support the right to die, but I also support not leaving mentally ill people to die in the rain.
posted by jpoulos at 10:15 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by jpoulos at 10:15 AM on February 27, 2004
I think it rather presumptuous to pass judgement on the old man, stubborn or not.
Agreed. Aside from the rather large assumption that this guy was beating his wife, this man did not do anything that should meet the legal definition of wrong.
People who want to be left alone, should be left alone.
posted by thirteen at 10:16 AM on February 27, 2004
The fact that his wife was so accommodating-- did what he told her to do, no more and no less-- leads me to believe that she was well trained, probably with the help of Mr. Belt and Mr. Fist. A psychologically healthy woman could not have left him lying on the ground while seeing to his comfort for 3 days (!) without calling the paramedics.
Oh please. Maybe she did it because she loved him and respected the wishes of her 80-something year old husband, regardless of how absurd. Save your accusations for your own family.
The elderly couple obviously weren't competent to make their own decisions.
Says who? How is this any different from someone trying to free climb Devil's Tower, or David Blain dangling upside down for 30 days (or whatever the hell)? People make what I consider to be incompetent decisions all the time... many of them are slapped all over TV for us to watch. I trust this old man (former) made a perfectly competent and reasoned decision. He knew he was going to die. And what's so wrong with that?
I think it's likely the man's mind wasn't exactly up to snuff.
We'll never know. We'll all just assume we know what we're talking about. That's so much more fun.
posted by Witty at 10:30 AM on February 27, 2004
Oh please. Maybe she did it because she loved him and respected the wishes of her 80-something year old husband, regardless of how absurd. Save your accusations for your own family.
The elderly couple obviously weren't competent to make their own decisions.
Says who? How is this any different from someone trying to free climb Devil's Tower, or David Blain dangling upside down for 30 days (or whatever the hell)? People make what I consider to be incompetent decisions all the time... many of them are slapped all over TV for us to watch. I trust this old man (former) made a perfectly competent and reasoned decision. He knew he was going to die. And what's so wrong with that?
I think it's likely the man's mind wasn't exactly up to snuff.
We'll never know. We'll all just assume we know what we're talking about. That's so much more fun.
posted by Witty at 10:30 AM on February 27, 2004
leads me to believe that she was well trained, probably with the help of Mr. Belt and Mr. Fist.
Actually, that's Doctor Belt and Corporal Fist, Ms. Best-Username-Ever. But I think you may be projecting more than you could really know about this situation. I mean, who knows outside this family?
It's a tough call. If I'm un/lucky enough to reach 83, I would like to think I'll still be able to call my own shots, even my last. And, speaking personally, if I'm not able to call my own shots, I might want to die.
Then again, this could be community neglect, plain and simple. What would Mel Gibson do?
posted by squirrel at 10:46 AM on February 27, 2004
Actually, that's Doctor Belt and Corporal Fist, Ms. Best-Username-Ever. But I think you may be projecting more than you could really know about this situation. I mean, who knows outside this family?
It's a tough call. If I'm un/lucky enough to reach 83, I would like to think I'll still be able to call my own shots, even my last. And, speaking personally, if I'm not able to call my own shots, I might want to die.
Then again, this could be community neglect, plain and simple. What would Mel Gibson do?
posted by squirrel at 10:46 AM on February 27, 2004
And, speaking personally, if I'm not able to call my own shots, I might want to die.
At age 83, whom would want to die in one's drive way?
posted by thomcatspike at 10:55 AM on February 27, 2004
At age 83, whom would want to die in one's drive way?
posted by thomcatspike at 10:55 AM on February 27, 2004
well trained, probably with the help of Mr. Belt and Mr. Fist.
that's a leap. my 80 y/o father has never struck my mother, ever. except with words. he's good at beating people with words. and my mother obeys his cranky, verbally abusive bad self to this day, even though in thier present health circumstances, she could kick his ass around the block. after a particularly ugly scene last year, i out and out asked my mom why she stays with him. her answer, a confused, rapid-fire heart-rending, eye-opener for me: "what would i do? i have nothing of my own. where would i go?" and i got it that for her generation, in her world, you threw in with a man, hoped he treated you decent, and tolerated the rest as best you could.
posted by quonsar at 11:02 AM on February 27, 2004
that's a leap. my 80 y/o father has never struck my mother, ever. except with words. he's good at beating people with words. and my mother obeys his cranky, verbally abusive bad self to this day, even though in thier present health circumstances, she could kick his ass around the block. after a particularly ugly scene last year, i out and out asked my mom why she stays with him. her answer, a confused, rapid-fire heart-rending, eye-opener for me: "what would i do? i have nothing of my own. where would i go?" and i got it that for her generation, in her world, you threw in with a man, hoped he treated you decent, and tolerated the rest as best you could.
posted by quonsar at 11:02 AM on February 27, 2004
At age 83, whom would want to die in one's drive way?
at age 83, it's probably more like "it's my goddam driveway, i bought and paid for it and i'll damn well die on it if i want to."
posted by quonsar at 11:05 AM on February 27, 2004
at age 83, it's probably more like "it's my goddam driveway, i bought and paid for it and i'll damn well die on it if i want to."
posted by quonsar at 11:05 AM on February 27, 2004
So many documentary films to make, so little money.
posted by squirrel at 11:20 AM on February 27, 2004
posted by squirrel at 11:20 AM on February 27, 2004
bclark - yeah, know ; )
squirrel - this would be a short though - cheap! Give it 5-15 minutes, and keep it sweet and simple, and maybe you'd have a good shot at filling a random, tiny slot at Sundance.
People like this sort of thing, and it's low on the tragedy scale and high on the eccentric rating. Lite fare - an absurd death (not that any death is "lite", but still......)
posted by troutfishing at 12:25 PM on February 27, 2004
squirrel - this would be a short though - cheap! Give it 5-15 minutes, and keep it sweet and simple, and maybe you'd have a good shot at filling a random, tiny slot at Sundance.
People like this sort of thing, and it's low on the tragedy scale and high on the eccentric rating. Lite fare - an absurd death (not that any death is "lite", but still......)
posted by troutfishing at 12:25 PM on February 27, 2004
I've seen this mindset in action.
My late uncle died at 41, after drinking all his organs into failure. His last few moments were spent on the floor as he had fallen and was unable to hoist himself even to a sitting position. His wife was there, and all he asked her for was a drink of Coca-Cola, which he quickly threw back up. He then fell asleep, and she went a few paces away to sit in a chair and read a book. When, a short time later, she noticed he was no longer breathing, her first reaction wasn't to call an ambulance or dial 911, it was to clean him up so when the paramedics did arrive he would look presentable.
He'd known for months that he was dying, but refused any medical attention. His parents, his brothers, even his wife and eight-months-pregnant daughter couldn't convince him to get help.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:34 PM on February 27, 2004
My late uncle died at 41, after drinking all his organs into failure. His last few moments were spent on the floor as he had fallen and was unable to hoist himself even to a sitting position. His wife was there, and all he asked her for was a drink of Coca-Cola, which he quickly threw back up. He then fell asleep, and she went a few paces away to sit in a chair and read a book. When, a short time later, she noticed he was no longer breathing, her first reaction wasn't to call an ambulance or dial 911, it was to clean him up so when the paramedics did arrive he would look presentable.
He'd known for months that he was dying, but refused any medical attention. His parents, his brothers, even his wife and eight-months-pregnant daughter couldn't convince him to get help.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:34 PM on February 27, 2004
The elderly in our society are frequently left feeling powerless, put-upon and dependent, sometimes because of the normal losses of ability or illnesses which can go along with age but also because of how younger people treat them. Medical caregivers, especially, are frequently guilty of talking to the elderly in the same loud, slow voices that are used for small children or the mentally handicapped, and presuming that all elderly people are suffering from memory loss, dementia, senility or a combination of all three.
In general, people go out of their way, sometimes insisting that they do things for the elderly -- shopping, chauffeuring, carrying packages, opening doors -- that they can often do for themselves and would rather do for themselves. There is often a loss of permanence; friends and loved ones die, move away or go into nursing facilities where visiting as they used to is difficult or impossible. There is loss of independence when their income is not what it once was, when driving is no longer a possibility (especially at night) or when medical woes prevent travel or hobbies which can be devastating.
No one likes to be constricted, to have options and choices taken away from them, and when someone has been left feeling that they finally have an opportunity to exert some control, they will take it. Sometimes that comes at a very steep price. In this case, it may have cost a man his life. Sad, but understandable, without need to presume lack of competence or domestic abuse.
posted by Dreama at 1:04 PM on February 27, 2004
In general, people go out of their way, sometimes insisting that they do things for the elderly -- shopping, chauffeuring, carrying packages, opening doors -- that they can often do for themselves and would rather do for themselves. There is often a loss of permanence; friends and loved ones die, move away or go into nursing facilities where visiting as they used to is difficult or impossible. There is loss of independence when their income is not what it once was, when driving is no longer a possibility (especially at night) or when medical woes prevent travel or hobbies which can be devastating.
No one likes to be constricted, to have options and choices taken away from them, and when someone has been left feeling that they finally have an opportunity to exert some control, they will take it. Sometimes that comes at a very steep price. In this case, it may have cost a man his life. Sad, but understandable, without need to presume lack of competence or domestic abuse.
posted by Dreama at 1:04 PM on February 27, 2004
Crash's story raises an interesting point about the old guy's death. Assuming for the sake of argument that he knew he was going to die in his yard and chose that path, what does our interest/surprise/despair in his decision say about our culture?
We in the west have too little variety in our notions of what life is for. We assume that the life task of utmost importance is extending the life; second to that is the accumulation of various forms of wealth. You know the rest. I'm not advocating that people take drastic self-destructive turns in their life paths, but the death-with-dignity movement ought to enhance the cultural dialogue about what is valuable in life, what life is for.
posted by squirrel at 1:16 PM on February 27, 2004
We in the west have too little variety in our notions of what life is for. We assume that the life task of utmost importance is extending the life; second to that is the accumulation of various forms of wealth. You know the rest. I'm not advocating that people take drastic self-destructive turns in their life paths, but the death-with-dignity movement ought to enhance the cultural dialogue about what is valuable in life, what life is for.
posted by squirrel at 1:16 PM on February 27, 2004
And, Dreama, on your points, here is a trailer from a documentary I'm producing right now about older volunteers for a program called Experience Corps. It's a self-link that I didn't plan when I posted this thread, but it fits in with what you're talking about.
posted by squirrel at 1:23 PM on February 27, 2004
posted by squirrel at 1:23 PM on February 27, 2004
>but the death-with-dignity movement ought to enhance the cultural dialogue about what is valuable in life, what life is for.
>"it's my goddam driveway, i bought and paid for it and i'll damn well die on it if i want to."
Well he found what death was good for: getting his wife to cater to his needs before laying down with him, then seeing those closes to him, wife son & neighbor(s) one last time.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:27 PM on February 27, 2004
>"it's my goddam driveway, i bought and paid for it and i'll damn well die on it if i want to."
Well he found what death was good for: getting his wife to cater to his needs before laying down with him, then seeing those closes to him, wife son & neighbor(s) one last time.
posted by thomcatspike at 1:27 PM on February 27, 2004
Waldo, the totally cool and famous authour who wrote the story was T.C. Boyle. I think I read it in Granta.
posted by Modgoddess at 9:43 PM on February 28, 2004
posted by Modgoddess at 9:43 PM on February 28, 2004
I've had a seizure, and right after I came to, I went on for about 30 minutes about how I didn't need any help. I did this unconciously... I certainly would not have turned help down otherwise.
What if this man was already dead, and was just the shell of a person for 4 days? I mean, there is no way to know how long someone is really "there" before he/she dies.
posted by LoopSouth at 1:27 PM on March 1, 2004
What if this man was already dead, and was just the shell of a person for 4 days? I mean, there is no way to know how long someone is really "there" before he/she dies.
posted by LoopSouth at 1:27 PM on March 1, 2004
That's sure a creepy thought.....
Boogah.
Boogah.
Boogah.....
posted by troutfishing at 9:24 PM on March 1, 2004
Boogah.
Boogah.
Boogah.....
posted by troutfishing at 9:24 PM on March 1, 2004
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posted by PWA_BadBoy at 12:36 AM on February 27, 2004