Schwarznegger And The
July 27, 2004 10:50 AM   Subscribe

How To Insult Gay Men And Women At The Same Time: Isn't Arnold Shwarzenegger getting a bit of a free ride? Sixties hero Paul Krassner (who notoriously described LBJ avidly fornicating JFK's bullet holed cranium on Air Force One) may be mellower and less forthright but his instincts seem as acute as ever. Btw, what other 60s yippies and figureheads are still relevant?
posted by MiguelCardoso (43 comments total)
 
[rant]

I'm not sure what the "girly-man" incident has to do with anything, since anyone who raises a fuss about it is chumming up the waters with minutia, when there's more important things to get upset about. Getting indignant over a more-or-less harmless doofy joke only makes all liberals look foolish and neurotic. Worry about policies not bullshit. I know plenty of women and plenty of gay people and none of them reported losing any sleep.

[/rant]

As far as icons go, he may be deceased but Abbie Hoffman has been hugely influential on my thinking, as has Krassner, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, John Sayles, Jack Kerouac, George Carlin, Langston Hughes and other icons of that time.
posted by jonmc at 11:05 AM on July 27, 2004


Look. I'm not siding with Schwarzenegger by a long shot. He probably MEANT it that way. But: isn't the "girlie-man" thing also a reference to Hans und Franz, the two German/Austrian guys on SNL that were making fun of Schwarzenegger in the first place? They used to saw "girlie-man" all the time, totally taking the piss out of the now-Cali governor (you try typing Schwarzenegger that many times.)

Just putting the idea out there...
posted by chinese_fashion at 11:05 AM on July 27, 2004


isn't the "girlie-man" thing also a reference to Hans und Franz, the two German/Austrian guys on SNL that were making fun of Schwarzenegger in the first place? They used to saw "girlie-man" all the time, totally taking the piss out of the now-Cali governor

And to give Arnold his due, he appeared in a skit with them when he hosted the show. The whole story is a non-story.
posted by jonmc at 11:14 AM on July 27, 2004


What about Dennis Miller and his "funny" [gag] comments about Kerry and Edwards being gay?
Doesn't the head of the RNC and Bush both need to apologize to these men for Miller's words?
I mean, isn't that how it worked when Whoopi made a slightly off color joke about Bush?
Jon Stewart nailed this subject regarding this subject with his editorial on talking points.
Its a GOP hate fest and its been going on for 12 years minimum!
Whoo!
Party!
Where's Ann Coulter when you need her?
What you say Tucker Carlson?
Got any compassion left for anyone?
Hey Rush!
Called anyone names lately or cast any not-so-sly aspersions towards your political foes?

Damn! Its time everyone got in on this hate fest action, don'tcha' think?
posted by nofundy at 11:28 AM on July 27, 2004


Anita Bryant seems to fit the spirit of the times pretty well.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:30 AM on July 27, 2004


As a relatively PC feminist, I didn't think there was anything wrong with Schwarzenegger's remark. And wasn't Paul Krassner responsible for the infamous Hustler meat-grinder cover?
posted by transona5 at 11:34 AM on July 27, 2004


What about Dennis Miller and his "funny" [gag] comments about Kerry and Edwards being gay?

If I recall correctly David Letterman did a bunch of gags on the same subject, and I think we had a thread here at MeFi too. And there it was seen for what it was, harmless tomfoolery.

I mean, isn't that how it worked when Whoopi made a slightly off color joke about Bush?

And Whoopi shouldn't have caught the flack she did either. But we brush it off from our political allies and we condemn it from those we consider our political allies. And that goes for both left and right.

Quit chumming up the waters with minutia. Of all the problems I have with Arnold, the "girly0man" thing rnaks at the bottom of the list. Hell, I've referred to Bush as a girly-man online.


Damn! Its time everyone got in on this hate fest action, don'tcha' think?

Yes. Everybody air out your prejudices and irrational bigotries (and we all, everybody on the planet have them). Look at them in the cold light of day, realize how ridiculous they are and move on.

As a white, heterosexual, Irish-Italian Catholic, lower-middle-class male I offer my services to anyone who wants to air out any beefs.

I can't dance, can't dress, I take my orders from the pope. I harbor rape fantasies and have a small penis and carry a gun. I'm stiff, I work for the mafia and I drink too much and I secretly desire to take over the world. Lay it on me! Let it out!

Dosen't that feel better?
posted by jonmc at 11:43 AM on July 27, 2004


Umm... is it just me, or did that article go absolutely nowhere? :) It went from Arnie, to Ann, to Martha... and then just kind of stopped. Odd.

Anyway, as chinese_fashion rightly guessed, the remark was a reference to the SNL skit. In fact, he ended the speech with "hasta la vista, baby."

My girlfriend laughed out loud when I told her about the remark, and neither of us could imagine being so hypersensitive as to be offended at something like that.

I agree with nofundy that The Daily Show's "talking points" bit really hit the nail on the head when it comes to pundits and news shows. Of course, it goes both ways, don't forget. :)
posted by fizgig at 11:44 AM on July 27, 2004


I'm outraged that people won't let me be NOT outraged over the girlie-man remark!! Fuckin faggots, all of you!
posted by WolfDaddy at 12:01 PM on July 27, 2004


jonmc, girly men are much more attractive intellectually than George Bush. Your comparison is therefore invalid.
posted by The God Complex at 12:08 PM on July 27, 2004


From the article:

"Countering those charges, Bill Maher on Larry King Live referred to accusations of sexism and homophobia as 'fake outrage.'"

Pretty much nails it.
posted by dhoyt at 12:34 PM on July 27, 2004


"Isn't Arnold Shwarzenegger getting a bit of a free ride?"

If this is the worst they can get to stick on Arnold, I'd say he's won. The man is an incredibly vile, sexist pig. Frankly, here in California we're all shocked at how polite and PC he's been.

Even asking this question indicates that you don't get it. And this seems totally local. Why are people in Europe hung up on jokes a state politician tells?
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:44 PM on July 27, 2004


Miguel... Paul Krassner had LBJ doing his thing with JFK's NECK wound, not head wound. I remember it vividly because I read it as a 13-year old or so when it first came out and I believed it! I thought it was true! "Why hasn't this made it into the papers?" I wondered. As satire, of course, it was totally pointless. It was a landmark, however, in giving notice that there were now no longer any more limits on how outrageous and transgressive "political" comedy could be -- a point that has been made and re-made to tiresome effect over the succeeding 35 years.
posted by Faze at 2:39 PM on July 27, 2004


MiguelCardoso: Btw, what other 60s yippies and figureheads are still relevant?
John Galt. Only a post-industrialist, hippie dropout, commune dwelling, dulcimer strumming, guerilla theatricist JOHN GALT.

Oh, and maybe the Fugs.
posted by ahimsakid at 3:07 PM on July 27, 2004


> he unthinkingly insulted women, gays and metrosexuals alike.

not that there's anything wrong with insulting metrosexuals.
posted by jfuller at 3:20 PM on July 27, 2004


Let's not foget Wavy Gravy, Country Joe McDonald and Rip Collins for relevant 60's luminaries.
posted by lometogo at 3:23 PM on July 27, 2004


count me in with the fucking faggots. i was offended, especially with what we know about Arnold's despicable behavior toward women. offended enough to write a letter? nope, but i was offended enought to offer this counteropinion. it wasn't as offensive to me as his repeal of the car tax, but everything is relative ...

"I saw this toilet bowl. How many times do you get away with this — to take a woman, grab her upside down, and bury her face in a toilet bowl? I wanted to have something floating there ... The thing is, you can do it, because in the end, I didn't do it to a woman — she's a machine! We could get away with it without being crucified by who-knows-what group."

i guess if you're OK with Arnold, you're OK with Arnold.

as for '60s yippie luminaries, i can't believe no one has mentioned Dana Beal (scroll down to the bottom for a sweet transcript from a Ted Koppel "town meeting" in 1998).
posted by mrgrimm at 3:42 PM on July 27, 2004


Offensive to women? Yeah, probably, but how was Arnold's statement offensive to gay men unless you believe the stereotype of gay men as effeminate?
posted by gyc at 4:15 PM on July 27, 2004


Someone regurgitates a SNL catchphrase = Hatecrime


Another day at the 'Filter.
posted by dhoyt at 4:21 PM on July 27, 2004


Girlie man's an insult?
posted by gesamtkunstwerk at 4:23 PM on July 27, 2004


This thread proves that one thing that has survived very well from the 1960s was this "I'm offended" pose. Before the Black Power movement, nobody walked around saying "I'm offended by that" except for people like the D.A.R. and other assorted snoots, snobs, and blue-noses (there's 1930s cartoon from the New Yorker that shows a bunch of WASPy types exiting a church, with one of them congratulating the minister on his sermon, because "It's so easy to offend people like us"). Black power used "offense" as a tactic to keep the liberal establishment off balance -- they kept changing the rules on what offended them, so they were always one step ahead. Then the rest of the identity culture picked up on it (the Italians were first after the African-Americans), and every ethnic group and minority jumped on the bandwagon. But in truth, my friends, it's bogus. Everybody takes offense for a group: their group, someone else's group, a group they read about somewhere. Do you remember the episode of "Curb Your Enthusiasm" where Larry David laughingly calls a guy a "cunt" during a poker game, and everyone automatically assumes some noble pose of offense on behalf of some group or cause or another? Our whole culture has become a gaggle of offense-taking ponces and assholes. Be big! Let it roll off your back. All together now: Sticks and stones will break my bones...
posted by Faze at 5:04 PM on July 27, 2004


yes, offensive to women.

he should certainly be free to say what he wants, but i'm also free to let his personal moral failings (in my opinion) further lessen my opinion of him. whatever.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:15 PM on July 27, 2004


mrgrimm, if you truly want to be counted in the 'fuckin faggot' number, you need to make sure you're offended by the phrase and not just the person who's uttering it. I think you're in the latter category, though.

That's why all this is false outrage. We don't find a phrase that's been in the comedic vernacular for nigh twenty years to be offensive unless someone we don't like utters it. Would you be just as upset if you saw an SNL rerun and saw Carvey and Nealon uttering it ad infinitum? Didn't think so.
posted by WolfDaddy at 5:31 PM on July 27, 2004


I agree that hearing an elected figure characterizing his opponents as spineless is sort of a non-issue. Of course, the way he characterized them as spineless was by using a term that equates being feminine with being spineless.

Yeah, it was a joke, but weren't the Hanz und Franz characters satirizing the sort of male who characterizes feminine as weak? By actually using this phrase, joking or otherwise, to attack his opponents, has Governor Arnold not portrayed himself as the very sort of male they were satirizing?

There are much bigger deals out there, but it is at least disappointing that we are willing to accept a major political figure equating feminine with spineless.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:05 PM on July 27, 2004


'...chumming up the waters with minutiae' is a fantastic phrase, jon. Golf clap!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:40 PM on July 27, 2004


MiguelCardoso: Btw, what other 60s yippies and figureheads are still relevant?

...Oh, and maybe the Fugs.


Holy Modal Rounders

Well, they actually were the band for the Fugs in the beginning--besides being something quite wonderful, altogether different and indescribable in their own right already. Still going strong in reunions from what I hear. Hmph--a new Jeopardy category: Fugs & Monkees...
posted by y2karl at 11:45 PM on July 27, 2004


Although he was attempting to rabble-rouse the crowd, he unthinkingly insulted women, gays and metrosexuals alike.

He did? Or is the article just assuming he did? He should have just called them pussies. This debate is embarrassing... on and off Mefi.

Please don't let metrosexual actually become a recognized viable term to describe someone... please, please, please. It has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
posted by Witty at 1:08 AM on July 28, 2004


I don't get it. I can see how women might take offense, but how does this have anything to do with homosexuals? It seems to me if anyone's pouring on the stereotypes, it's the people who wrote the article.
posted by Poagao at 4:17 AM on July 28, 2004


what other 60s yippies and figureheads are still relevant?

Syd barrett seems to be fitting in pretty well.
posted by sgt.serenity at 5:52 AM on July 28, 2004


I'm more embarassed than outraged. What's next? Laura Bush quoting The Church Lady?
posted by octobersurprise at 6:12 AM on July 28, 2004


Its a GOP hate fest and its been going on for 12 years minimum!
Whoo!
Party!
Where's Ann Coulter when you need her?
What you say Tucker Carlson?
Got any compassion left for anyone?
Hey Rush!
Called anyone names lately or cast any not-so-sly aspersions towards your political foes?


Sometimes I think nofundy is just a script, programmed to spit out non sequiters with the words "Rush" "Tucker Carlson" "Ann Coulter" "O'Reilly" "Dubya" or "Halliburton" in them.
posted by pardonyou? at 6:30 AM on July 28, 2004


'...chumming up the waters with minutiae' is a fantastic phrase, jon. Golf clap!

I lifted it from one of Dennis Miller's old rants, from back when he was still marginally cool. I finally got around to watching his new show. His politics really have swung to the right. Which would be fine if he still managed to be funny. He didn't.
posted by jonmc at 6:51 AM on July 28, 2004


Sometimes I think nofundy is just a script,

But scripts are programmed to sound clever & cogent.
posted by dhoyt at 7:46 AM on July 28, 2004


Why do you think scripts are programmed to sound clever & cogent. dhoyt?
posted by WolfDaddy at 8:53 AM on July 28, 2004


So nerds can play at being anonymously suave?
posted by dhoyt at 8:56 AM on July 28, 2004


That's why all this is false outrage. We don't find a phrase that's been in the comedic vernacular for nigh twenty years to be offensive unless someone we don't like utters it. Would you be just as upset if you saw an SNL rerun and saw Carvey and Nealon uttering it ad infinitum? Didn't think so.

JoeyMichaels already said it well, but yes, i have a problem with the term as it was used, implying that females are weak. it wouldn't matter who used it. if the Kerry said that the Bush administration is full of girlie-men because they didn't send enough troops to Iraq, i'd lose the respect i have for him.

comparing it to the SNL routine is stupid. Hans and Franz were making *fun* of people who think "girly-men" are weak. big difference.

what if George Bush addressed the CBC in blackface and said "O-Tay" a lot. hey, he's just riffing on Eddie Murphy's Buckwheat character ... what's the big fucking deal. get a grip, you pussies, etc. etc. ad nauseam.
posted by mrgrimm at 11:54 AM on July 28, 2004


what if George Bush addressed the CBC in blackface and said "O-Tay" a lot. hey, he's just riffing on Eddie Murphy's Buckwheat character ...

I dunno about that, but I would enjoy seeing Bush reference Dave Chappelle by saying "Cocaine's A Hell Of A Drug."
posted by jonmc at 12:19 PM on July 28, 2004


Which reminds me, I'm outraged at Eddie Murphy for offending all those with speech impediments, not to mention Billie Thomas himself. How DARE he!
posted by WolfDaddy at 2:08 PM on July 28, 2004


There is a difference between a comedian doing it and a politician doing it. Of course, they're all clowns, but politicians are those scary clowns that make you cry.

It is all about context. In the context of Hans and Franz on SNL, we know that these are figures being held up to ridicule. When they say "girlie man," part of the irony is that Hans and Franz themselves seem to have a homosexual relationship going on - there's a great segment of them riding a horse together and frolicking in the field.

In the context of a political speech attacking his opponents, that level of irony is gone - unless, I suppose, you accept that the Governator is secretly gay. In addition, since it is removed from it's comic context, the reference seems to become "feminine = spineless."

Finally, are Hans and Franz the images that the Governator really wants to invoke? The characters were ineffectual steroid poppers who never quite got around to doing what they claimed they were doing (helping you get "pumped up") and the skits themselves were, at best, moderately funny. I mean, Kevin Nealon was in them. Enough said.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:15 PM on July 28, 2004


Hans & Franz were a parody of Schwarzenegger. Thus, by using the term "girle-men" he is ridiculing himself as much as anyone else, thus showing himself to be a good sport.
posted by kindall at 3:20 PM on July 28, 2004


Thank you kindall.

Also, the context, at least as it seems to be interpreted by some folk, is that no one, but especially people with whom they don't agree, should say "girlie-man" because it's offensive to women, homosexuals, and even metrosexuals, which is the height of PC idiocy. People's outrage meters have gone so wonky that they no longer recognize self-parody, and that's sad. If Ahnuld had said something along the lines of "accept my budget or you will be terminated" do you think we'd all be afraid he was out to murder us in our beds? I wonder.
posted by WolfDaddy at 3:39 PM on July 28, 2004


I read somewhere that he is out to murder us in our beds.

I'm just saying.
posted by snarfodox at 6:36 PM on July 28, 2004


I read somewhere that he is out to murder us in our beds.

And he's bringing Danny DeVito with him.
posted by jonmc at 7:19 PM on July 28, 2004


« Older USA Today Dumps Ann Coulter   |   blogging the DNC convention blogging Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments