A modest proposal

November 6, 2004 6:31 PM

Join Canada?Okay, many of you feel you've been disenfranchised by the recent election, maybe even to the point of hating the heartland. We've heard lots of "I'm moving to Canada" and discussion of immigration requirements. But some are now talking about a merger of the Blue States and the Great White North. Joining Canada isn't a new idea, either for Americans or others. C'mon, do you really think it would work?
posted by Turtles all the way down (64 comments total)

PieInTheSkyFilter
posted by cinematique at 6:37 PM on November 6, 2004

One big problem. The liquor stores can go on strike in Canada and that pretty much rules it out as far as I'm concerned. Cops, health care workers, city employees -- knock yourselves out, I like unions -- but fer Chrissakes, liquor stores? That's just wrong.
posted by cedar at 6:44 PM on November 6, 2004

It looks like there's support for secession on the right. This may be less crazy than you think (unless I forgot to take my meds today).
posted by wendell at 6:46 PM on November 6, 2004

Yep, cedar, that's what I'm getting at. Here you buy your booze at the Government Liquor Store. Strike? No liquor. We're kind of okay with that (the idea of a mom'n'pop liquor store seems strange to most Canadians) but that's the kind of cultural gulf we're talking about.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 6:47 PM on November 6, 2004

Any state that elected Rick Santorum or Arnold Schwartzenneger can fuck right off before we even start.

As for the rest, states which voted just under 50% for George Bush have a lot more in common with states that voted just over 50% for bush than they do with Canada. I know you hate to hear this, but it's true. Work this one out on your own.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:49 PM on November 6, 2004

you can run but you can't hide

"Watch the media and they will have you believe that Conservatives won because they were simple overly-religious "common people" too stupid to realize how great socialism would be for them."

"Congratulations to President George W Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and his talented cabinet - their winning campaign ensures that the world stands on the brink of a great expansion of the global economy, global democracy and global freedom ..."

what's that? ... you thought they were all liberals up there? ... hah
posted by pyramid termite at 6:51 PM on November 6, 2004

I voted for Kerry... but maybe we should wait four more years to see if the Republican Apocalypse actually comes before talking about dividing the Blue from the Red.

We seemed to survive Presidents Reagan and G.H.W. Bush pretty well... as far as I can tell.
posted by cinematique at 6:56 PM on November 6, 2004

I don't think it would work -- for one thing, what are all those red states going to do when blue federal tax dollars aren't going to support them?

(I forget the link, and I'm too lazy to look for it right now, but somewhere out there there's a list of the amount of federal aid that goes to each state per dollar given, and those states that take in more than they give are overwhelmingly red.)

But then, who knows - I hear Reagan proved that deficits don't matter.
posted by dogmatic at 6:59 PM on November 6, 2004

dogmatic: read the "hate the heartland" link for confirmation of the idea you're referring to. No link to the data, but this was my first notification of the resentment the "taxpaying" states may feel toward the recipients of federal largesse.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:06 PM on November 6, 2004

(for you future Canadians, this exactly parallels the situation with Quebec, with which you will become intimately familiar.)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 7:10 PM on November 6, 2004

Yep, cedar, that's what I'm getting at. Here you buy your booze at the Government Liquor Store. Strike? No liquor. We're kind of okay with that (the idea of a mom'n'pop liquor store seems strange to most Canadians) but that's the kind of cultural gulf we're talking about.

Living in Alberta (the Canadian Texas! Yee-haw!), I almost forgot about this. Liquor stores have been privatized for over ten years now.

However, you have to put up with a right-wing provincial stronghold instead.
posted by Quartermass at 7:19 PM on November 6, 2004

That's funny...I was just looking at this.

(Though really I think Space Coyote is in the right. We're mostly purple.)
posted by hippugeek at 7:21 PM on November 6, 2004

Stop it already with the Red and the Blue states rhetoric. What do we Democratic Denverites do? Build a wall?
posted by kozad at 7:21 PM on November 6, 2004

There were almost as many Bush voters in California, as there were in the entire Rocky mountain range. Really, a large part of why we are talking this way, has to do with the Electoral College that forces us into thinking of states by their majorities.

But the post is nice to note that some conservatives are at least as full of crap on the red/blue state issue as some of the people here.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:36 PM on November 6, 2004

I'm confused. Are the states that voted for the same-sex marriage ban and Kerry part of Jesusland or Canuckistan?
posted by gyc at 7:40 PM on November 6, 2004

Well, kozad, there isn't much between us and Canada - just Wyoming and Montana. We could carve a swatch along I-25 all the way up to the northern border and claim as ours.
posted by jazon at 7:42 PM on November 6, 2004

jazon: Well, kozad, there isn't much between us and Canada - just Wyoming and Montana. We could carve a swatch along I-25 all the way up to the northern border and claim as ours.

The history of the UK would suggest that congurent borders are not particularly necessary for a nation.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:45 PM on November 6, 2004

kozad, perhaps you could build an exit ramp onto the Mexi-Canadian Overpass.
posted by Space Coyote at 7:50 PM on November 6, 2004

You're all assuming that Canada would be willing.
posted by srboisvert at 8:18 PM on November 6, 2004

Liquor stores are privated in B.C. now, or some of them are (the government still runs their own, as well). Plus, unlike Alberta, we're not considered Texas North ;)
posted by The God Complex at 8:50 PM on November 6, 2004

Hey, Turtles, thanks for posting - for some reason I always enjoy seeing the Philadelphia Daily News in the blue.

For those who are bringing up potential stumbling blocks, you may enjoy reading this rebuttal from the Toronto Sun that ran the next day, dragging in some of your real-world concerns, as well as more frivolous nonsense.
posted by soyjoy at 8:56 PM on November 6, 2004

still looking for a canadian lesbian interested in a short term "marriage" with an american queer... (that's aboot my only way up there)
posted by moonbird at 11:09 PM on November 6, 2004

No. It won't work. The idealism is too different. Some serious sticking issues that will not be resolved:

- Death Penalty
- Liquor Control
- The Queen
- Gun Control
- Taxation
- Ontario's religious school system (as required by the very founding laws of Canada)
- Election issues (Multiparty system vs. Two-party system)
- General voting issues (Canadians rarely hold a vote on the types of issues / people listed on a US ballot)
- Leadership issues (Canadians expect their Prime Minister to be able to act without restraint, America's system is a virtual opposite to this)
- Sentencing issues (America has one of the highest inmate to non-inmate ratios of the world)
- Imprisonment issues (Canada has no "true" life sentence, nobody can be sentenced to imprisonment until death)
- French language issues

There's probably a bunch more issues I could think of.
posted by shepd at 11:29 PM on November 6, 2004

Recently, after a spate of scandalized media coverage, a store called Da Kine here in Vancouver, which had been quietly selling pot over the counter for a number of months, was shut down. During the two weeks or so when it was top of the local news, some reporters interviewed the people waiting in line to buy their 10 grams (or whatever the amount was), and found that they all agreed on two things: that pot should be fully legalized, and that the only thing wrong with what Da Kine was doing was that nobody was paying taxes on the purchases.

There you have the difference between our two great nations in a nutshell, I think.

And Canada did pretty well with all those well educated draft dodgers in the 60s-- I'm sure we could handle another wave or two of refugees.
posted by jokeefe at 12:10 AM on November 7, 2004

Hey - you shouldn't diss government liquor stores. Strike or no strike, when I'm in Ontario I can get a huge selection of imported liquor, liqueur, wine or beer, in a clean, well organised store with trained staff. There are stores called "all brand stores" - they are larger, maybe a bit farther away, but required to carry every kind of alcohol sold by the LCBO.

Here in Connecticut, the stores are friendly, but tiny, with terrible selection and questionable decor (bikini posters on the walls of one). And their hours are no better (worse, actually, because of CTs blue laws - but for the sake of the literally mom and pop shops, I am glad there is a limit on hours. Everyone should get to go home before too late, and have a day off a week.)

Basically, shopping at the LCBO feels like you are going to an upscale boutique to chose a fine drink, but the prices are just the same as I pay down here for a fraction of the selection. That's privatisation for you.
posted by jb at 12:30 AM on November 7, 2004

(Notably, the Liquor Control Board of Ontario, aka the LCBO, is suposedly the largest single purchaser of alcohol in the world. Which is cool.)
posted by jb at 12:31 AM on November 7, 2004

There were almost as many Bush voters in California, as there were in the entire Rocky mountain range.

And it sounds like Democrats in Colorado and Montana did okay.
posted by homunculus at 12:36 AM on November 7, 2004

C'mon, do you really think it would work?

EHN. OH.

Any state that elected Rick Santorum or Arnold Schwartzenneger can fuck right off before we even start.

seriously. keep the fuck away from us, we have our own problems to deal with. top' o the list is making sure our wingnuts don't get out of control the way yours have, and all that purple shows every single state is quite polluted. we don't need the possible contamination.

still looking for a canadian lesbian interested in a short term "marriage" with an american queer... (that's aboot my only way up there)

the 2 lesbians in the room with me right now say you'll stand a better chance if you quit the "aboot" schtick. no one pronounces it that way here, outside of stand up comedians playing to tired old stereotypes - scottish immigrants - and it's well past annoying.

I'm sure we could handle another wave or two of refugees.

yes, yes we could. i've already made a wish list as to which refugees i'd most prefer and even house if necessary. amberglow and dong_resin are right at the top of the list.

Hey - you shouldn't diss government liquor stores. Strike or no strike, when I'm in Ontario I can get a huge selection of...

so, so true. and if they don't carry something, they will take your request and get it for you in startlingly fast time considering it's a gov't operation. and yah, the stores are really cute, def like a boutique.
posted by t r a c y at 1:16 AM on November 7, 2004

Ooh, are we placing dibs on mefites? 'Cause I'd definitely take amberglow as well, and also languagehat and mrs. languagehat. Oh, and madamjujujive is mine as well.

I'd even make room for quonsar in a pinch.
posted by jokeefe at 1:31 AM on November 7, 2004

aw...thanks! It's good to be wanted. : >

I've said it before and i'll say it again--Canada is the America we should be. Even more so since we're now actually going backwards.
posted by amberglow at 1:56 AM on November 7, 2004

i have an email that confirms my dibs on amberglow and i'll fight you for him if i have to, sister.
posted by t r a c y at 2:00 AM on November 7, 2004

jb, ask a retired Ontarian what shopping at the LCBO was like when he came of age.

$5 says it was one step from shopping inside a prison house. I believe there's still an old style (from the outside) LCBO operating in Elora, IIRC. It's what made me interested in reading about the LCBO of the past.

The LCBO has come a long way over the years. Unfortunately, it's managed to make people feel comfortable with it (the LCBO, that is). The entire intent of the existence of an LCBO was to put people off alcohol. Odd, isn't it, how government organizations slowly morph from one thing to another? If only we could see this happen with Revenue Canada.
posted by shepd at 2:34 AM on November 7, 2004

In my perverse Canadian way I've always thought the liquor store was the great equalizer. Whether you're a wino or a CEO you have to get in line at the liquor store. Which seems fair, somehow: it's a concrete reminder that at some level you're all the same.
posted by Turtles all the way down at 3:02 AM on November 7, 2004

make room for quonsar

there's a sitcom script in there somewhere.
posted by t r a c y at 3:04 AM on November 7, 2004

t r a c y -- I am deeply hurt to not be on your list. When my immigration paperwork comes through, I'm going to be on your doorstep yelling obscenities in French.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:09 AM on November 7, 2004

In my perverse Canadian way I've always thought the liquor store was the great equalizer.

The LCBO: Mending socio-economic wounds since, uhm, whenever the hell they founded.
posted by mrplab at 6:19 AM on November 7, 2004

You think Canada's politics are any better?
posted by bwg at 6:48 AM on November 7, 2004

Yeah, they pretty much are.
posted by Hildegarde at 6:53 AM on November 7, 2004

Jesus Christ you bunch of whiners. Fix your own country before thinking about infesting ours.

"Oh man ,we fucked up this apartment pretty good. Too bad we're too lazy to clean it up before moving to that one aross town. OH WELL."
posted by jon_kill at 7:08 AM on November 7, 2004

What about the opposite? Why not the RED states joining with Mexico? After political, cultural and economic normalization, Am-Mex would would match Am-Can in many ways.
posted by kablam at 7:51 AM on November 7, 2004

If I recall my Canadian history correctly, didn't the Canada-as-a-nation concept get a big boost from the original U.S. Civil War?
posted by gimonca at 7:55 AM on November 7, 2004

the chant of many an Ontarian 19-year old:
LC!
LCB!
LCBO, let's go!

I'd like to add that Food & Drink is the best free magazine I've ever read.

ps. It's easy to spot the Canadians in this thread -- we're the ones talking about booze instead of politics.
posted by krunk at 8:26 AM on November 7, 2004

Basically, shopping at the LCBO feels like you are going to an upscale boutique to chose a fine drink, but the prices are just the same as I pay down here for a fraction of the selection. That's privatisation for you.

Eh. It's not universal. You should see the government-run liquor stores here in North Carolina (they're the only liquor stores, private sale not being permitted outside bars and restaurants). Lovely Soviet Bloc-style architecture complete with solid unfinished cement structural elements, Soviet-red trim, and of course that modernist gift to the ages, dirty yellowing glass brick everywhere. Next to no selection and a freakishly ration-line-esque atmosphere (you enter through this door, and exit through that door, and god help you if you try to go out through the in door).
posted by IshmaelGraves at 8:50 AM on November 7, 2004

i think the LCBO website gives a pretty good idea of how nice the stores are, and the interest they take in their product... i would hate to see privatization since it would most assuredly lead to dumpy little stores that don't stock what you want.

When my immigration paperwork comes through, I'm going to be on your doorstep yelling obscenities in French.

hey, i didn't disclose a full list ! but maybe i'll cross you off it just for the amusing bilingual tantrum ;-)
posted by t r a c y at 9:39 AM on November 7, 2004

Cool. Could Canada make use of an unemployed technical writer? I always wanted to try poutine, which is hard to do in South Carolina.
posted by alumshubby at 10:11 AM on November 7, 2004

when I'm in Ontario I can get a huge selection of imported liquor, liqueur, wine or beer

I for one found the LCBO and Beer Store's selection of beers to be distinctly lacking. About what you might find in the local Kroger as far as what's on the shelf.

Beyond the shelf, it seems from the LCBO's pages that a lot of stuff isn't available period -- no Berliner Weisse, no Xingu, no Celis, not even what I'd think of as standbys like Yuengling's or Leinenkugel's or Sierra Nevada. You can get some Samuel Smith and Rogue and Paulaner products, but the selection is paltry.

But then my impressions of what beers should be available were set in Charlottesville, where you could go down to the Court Square Tavern and get any of a couple hundred bottled beers, all the way to weirdo shit like Samischlaus, and a bunch on tap. Mmm.

I would like it if Alexander Keith's were more common down here. I seem to like it, so I guess I must like it a lot.

The ABC stores in NC do suck a dog's bum. The ones in VA too.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:12 AM on November 7, 2004

For comparison, here's Quebec's liquor store page except they're on strike this weekend. I could hear the workers at the one at the corner, cheering and blowing whistles in that sol-sol-sol, sol-i-dar-i-té rhythm all yesterday afternoon.
posted by zadcat at 10:17 AM on November 7, 2004

If I recall my Canadian history correctly, didn't the Canada-as-a-nation concept get a big boost from the original U.S. Civil War?

Yup, that's about right. And the War of Independence did the same thing a few generations earlier, producing an enormous influx of anti-republican British loyalists across Canada. This is one of the stronger historical arguments in defence of the Canada-defines-itself-in-opposition-to-America theory of Canadian identity, which is true as far as it goes, but doesn't tell the whole story.

i would hate to see privatization since it would most assuredly lead to dumpy little stores that don't stock what you want.

As someone who has semi-recently relocated from Ontario (land of resplendent govt-run boutiques) to Alberta (land of privatization's mixed bag), I can offer my sense of how the two systems compare and contrast:

- Way better beer selection, across the board, at Ontario's Beer Stores (which are actually separate from the LCBO and wholly owned by three breweries - Labatt, Molson and Sleeman - though heavily govt-regulated). A rundown beer store in one of Toronto's sketchiest neighbourhoods has a wider selection of brews than a fancy booze superstore in Calgary's richest suburb.

- Much more convenience in Alberta, owing to many more liquor-dispensing outlets. In cities particularly, most people are likely to have a "local," often a fairly small convenience-store type liquor store where you can pick up a quick six-pack or bottle of cabernet from a limited selection when you're in a hurry. You can also buy beer "off sales" directly from bars after the liquor stores close.

- Alberta's got some excellent boutiques, but nothing to compare with the likes of the Rosedale train station and Queen's Quay LCBOs in Toronto. A high-end Calgary wine boutique will have the same carefully picked stock as the Vintages section of an LCBO, but no attached booze supermarket. Same goes for an upscale, large-scale Alberta liquor superstore, which will generally be on par with the best liquor store in most Ontario cities, but not quite in the same league as the very best of the LCBOs. (Then again, who is? Random interesting LCBO fact: the LCBO is the single largest purchaser of wine in the world.)

So then, to return most of the way back to the topic of this thread, here's how it breaks down for Americans considering relocation: In Alberta, you'll find private liquor stores and entrenched pockets of redneck evangelical Christianity to make you feel like you've never left home. In certain parts of Ontario, you'll find a handful of the best liquor outlets on the continent, the Saks and Macy's of hooch sales. Plus gays, married. You'll likely be amazed at the cavalier attitude toward marijuana consumption anywhere you go. And please, we beg you, wipe that crap off your shoes at the door; we'd rather you didn't go tracking any of it in our tidy, tolerant streets. Thanks.
posted by gompa at 10:22 AM on November 7, 2004

Nova Scotia has pretty classy liquor stores, and bars can be licensed to stay open until 3:30am. Gay marriage: yes.

Tropical island paradise: coming soon (maybe).

Feel free to send us your best and brightest.
posted by philip at 10:38 AM on November 7, 2004

Poutine is quite tasty. It is not Lipitor-friendly.
posted by gimonca at 11:10 AM on November 7, 2004

"I appreciate his strong statement[,] he understands I believe in free trade," Bush replied. "He understands I want to make sure our relations with our most important neighbour to the north of us, the Canadians, is strong and we'll work closely together."

Pres. Bush, referring to Canadian P.M. "Jean Poutine"
posted by gimonca at 11:13 AM on November 7, 2004

but maybe i'll cross you off it just for the amusing bilingual tantrum

Aww, merde.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:22 AM on November 7, 2004

our most important neighbour to the north of us

Ha! Faint praise indeed! (Like which other countries are to the north of America?) That's like my mother telling me to say something nice about my brother when we were kids: "He's pretty nice, for an asshole." ;-)
posted by Turtles all the way down at 11:23 AM on November 7, 2004

Yes, pyramid termite, there are Canadian conservatives, but unlike in the US, they keep losing elections (except in Alberta, aka Texas North and I can say that because I come from there). Our government has been "Liberal" (pretty centrist) for a long time now. I don't especially like our current Prime Minister, but, I like not having to worry that my country will turn into a theocracy.

Having grown up in Alberta, where my local government liquor store was transformed into the Liquor Barn, and passing the evocatively named Solo Liquor store on my way to work every day, I can safely second the choice of government-run liquor stores. I was so impressed when I moved to Ontario that every LCBO had a pretty decent selection and didn't feel sketchy. And the prices? Pretty comparable.

The Beer Store is less nice. It's basically a giant fridge. Full of beer. Okay, I take that back; it's awesome.
posted by SoftRain at 11:46 AM on November 7, 2004

I would just like to point out that Vancouver has a plethora of excellent microbreweries (Storm Brewing's Rasberry Lambic is to die for). Also, there's no smoking in public indoors, which is nice, and the fragrant smell of pot is everywhere. And to agree with what SoftRain said-- the Liberals just recently won re-election up here, despite money scandals and a predictable yen for change after the PM decided to retire by scaring the electorate shitless with the prospect of an American style right wing administration.

And tracy, choose your weapons. For my part, I say lingerie and chocolate pudding at dawn. That way we can get half of Mefi to throw money, thereby establishing a half-way house for American refugees.
posted by jokeefe at 1:38 PM on November 7, 2004

the catfight sounds fun, but over me?!? too funny. (we could make millions from it.) : >

(maybe i can help run the halfway house tho? it'll get me a work permit)
posted by amberglow at 1:54 PM on November 7, 2004

shepd - Yes, I am showing my age (just 27) - my advisor was in Toronto for a year in the late 70s/early 80s, and remembers a rather more austere LCBO. He describes writing his selection on a slip of paper, than having to go to a counter to be scowled at before being reluctently sold a small amount of alcohol. But it has changed dramatically since then, and I wouldn't trade the LCBO for anything.

ROU_Xenophobe - About selection at the LCBO - if you're still in Ontario, you could try requesting something to be carried if it isn't. I know they weren't carrying BC cider for a long time, but then started to. And if you haven't seen an all brands store, you should - you can call them and they will tell you where the nearest one is. I think the store at 401 and Weston in Toronto is an all brands, and much easier to get to by car than the Queens Quay or Rosedale.

I have to say this about LCBOs - they are not all alike. Nor do they all card as much. Being a non-driver, I lacked proof of age even when I was legal (a real problem in Canada). I soon found out that the Eaton Centre, swarming with teenagers, would not accept a birth certificate. But the Manulife Centre, average age 55, didn't even think to ask me for I.D. Generally, I think the LCBO cards more than bars in Toronto, but I did cultivate the more relaxed places until I got a passport.

I am confused though - how do things work in Quebec? They seem to have wine and beer in local shops, but also have a government liquor store?
posted by jb at 2:11 PM on November 7, 2004

jb - if i recall correctly, saq outlets (société des alcools du québec or special government alcohol shops) are the only places one can purchase spirits. wine and beer, though, can be bought at both local shops and at saq outlets. saq outlets are really top notch - you can get (or order) almost anything you'd like.
posted by lumiere at 2:30 PM on November 7, 2004

I just visit Ontario, first to visit my schnookie, then to steal her away to the People's Republic of D/FW *rolls eyes*, now to visit the in-laws. And to be away from here.

It just bugged me when we'd go to the LCBO on Yonge near Davisville for beer, and they wouldn't have anything that particularly appealed to me, and there was effectively nowhere else to go; we couldn't just pop up to a different grocery store 1/4 mile away and check their selection like I would here.

A visit to an all-brands store might indeed be fun.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:08 PM on November 7, 2004

now look what we've done ... we've threatened to join canada ... and we've driven all the canadians here to drink

HEY!! SAVE US SOME!!
posted by pyramid termite at 4:18 PM on November 7, 2004

While I totally love the secession idea, I'm dismayed that the best we can come up with is to join another insurmountably large country. Didn't we just learn that that doesn't work? Can't we just have NYC alone, and welcome anyone who wants to move to this glorious proof that we can all get along, even with space constraints?

Everyone in the US wants to split away from each other. Maybe the time has come. The only problem is leaving everyone else with the nukes.
posted by goneill at 4:54 PM on November 7, 2004

*ahem*

Not to go too far off topic, but

*CASCADIA LIVES!!!!*
posted by kaibutsu at 6:11 PM on November 7, 2004

gompa: If you're looking for a decently eclectic selection of beer in Calgary, big stores in the burbs aren't guaranteed to be the best. Up in my neighbourhood (Edmonton Trail & 16th Ave area), the best selection of beer isn't the giant ex-government store (CSN Liquors, or as I like to think of it, Crosby Stills & Nash), but a tiny hole-in-the wall store offa Edmonton Tr. & 8th Ave. I've gotta admit, though, the general trend seems to be towards cutting the import/microbrew selection down in favour of those vodka/pop thingies and/or 40's of malt liquor. Sucks, doesn't it?
posted by arto at 8:17 PM on November 7, 2004

Somebody told me that strangely, the Kensington Wine Market was one of the best places to go for beer selection in Calgary. I popped in one day and was fairly impressed. The liquor store in Eau Claire Market also seemed to have a decent selection.
posted by Jaybo at 4:48 PM on November 11, 2004