Goetterdammerung with Capes

January 7, 2005 7:17 AM

Twilight of the Superheroes.After the success of 1987's Watchmen series, Alan Moore approached DC Comics with an idea of epic proportions. Inspired by grand scope of Crisis on Infinite Earths and the dark promise of The Dark Knight Returns, Twilight was pitched as a way to elevate the DC Comics roster from heroes to legends. "What I'd like to do creatively with the series, above and beyond the creative satisfaction to me ... is to create a storyline that lent the whole superhero phenomenon, the whole cosmos and concept a context that [is] intensely mythic ... aiming at coming up with something that cements the link between superheroes and the Gods of legend by attempting something as direct and resonant as the original legends themselves."

The story? Oh, just a little scenario involving the dissolution of society as we know it, a massive conflict resulting in several superhero casualties, a splitting of the surviving superheroes into eight distinct houses, a bubble of lost time called "the fluke" and the unfortunate fate of a BDSM-loving midget in a locked room. Oh, and the hero of the whole thing is John Constantine.

The series was never published. The proposal itself might even be a hoax. But real or not, it is worth finding and reading ... even if DC Comics would prefer you didn't.
posted by grabbingsand (63 comments total)

This is an excellent post and you've got me really excited about this proposed/supposed project. Alan Moore is a very interesting comics author.

P.S. People will tell you the front page text was too long, but I don't mind, personally.
posted by Evstar at 7:31 AM on January 7, 2005

Awesome post! This is why I love Mefi.
posted by djeo at 7:39 AM on January 7, 2005

The proposal is more than 15 years old, and has long been considered dead in the water.

But, hey, Alan Moore is actually working with DC again, so who's to say what's possible.

Twilight's got one of my favorite time-travel twists of all time, and my very favorite John Constantine moment. I wish we could have seen it.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 7:39 AM on January 7, 2005

Wow.
Part of me is glad that it was never published, because it sounds so damned good on paper, the realization might ruin it. Another part thinks that Moore might be able to pull off another masterpiece along the lines of The Watchmen and V for Vendetta.
On preview: very nice Constantine bit, yes. Though you've got to wonder if the younger Constantine's final action is actually what the older intended.
posted by mistersix at 7:45 AM on January 7, 2005

This isn't a hoax, it's just old.

It wouldn't work with today's continuity, espeically since Mark Waid ripped off lots of it for Kingdom Come (which was generally horrible).

It's also very dated if memory serves -- having Billy Batson stuck in a child's body for decades and the subsequent sexual frustrations that might arise from that situation, well, that seems very late-'80s to me. Passé.

Still, it would have been interesting.
posted by the wind at 7:47 AM on January 7, 2005

Kinda reminds me of Kingdom Come.
posted by Plutor at 7:49 AM on January 7, 2005

What is it with Alan Moore and the apocalypse? Isn't he about to destroy his ABC universe? Judgement Day just came and went in Promethea.
posted by muckster at 7:50 AM on January 7, 2005

That was the end of the world he'd been leading up to for the ABC universe. And he won't be calling the shots any longer... DC owns the characters, except Promethea, and Moore isn't planning to write them any more (last I knew.)
posted by Zed_Lopez at 8:00 AM on January 7, 2005

...having Billy Batson stuck in a child's body for decades and the subsequent sexual frustrations that might arise from that situation, well, that seems very late-'80s to me. Passé.

Eh, they did it fairly recently with Pinnochio in Fables, so it's still more or less valid...

Speaking of Constantine, Shoot is also an interesting never-published piece...
posted by Katemonkey at 8:03 AM on January 7, 2005

I wouldn't say Moore is working with DC. Wildstorm keeps a firm division between their publishing arm and DC. I don't remember what it was that caused the rift, but as far as I know it's one that will never be healed. DC tried to do something special for the 15th anniversary of Watchmen (commemorative HC, action figures) and it was received so poorly by Moore that they cancelled the whole thing.
posted by DonnieSticks at 8:12 AM on January 7, 2005

I'm still gleaning the proposal, but so far the format reminds me of X-Men's Age of Apocalypse, a multi-title crossover taking place in a version of the future.
posted by bobo123 at 8:13 AM on January 7, 2005

I was going to point out the similarities in that storyline to some or many of the ideas in Kingdom Come. Although, I thought Kingdom Come was fantastic. Not perfect, but I thought it did a great job of humanizing superheroes, (or, metahumans) and placing them in a very well-considered real-life context with humans.

This story sounds very interesting though. I like the direction, and I would have loved to see a comic produced.
posted by paultron at 8:16 AM on January 7, 2005

Nice post! I don't really read comics, and was more a Marvel fan than a DC fan anyway, but this is the kind of ambition that's refreshing to see whatever the medium.
posted by OmieWise at 8:24 AM on January 7, 2005

Man, Comicsfilter is alive and strong! Thanks, grabbingsand!
posted by graventy at 8:24 AM on January 7, 2005

Woot! We should start setting up and cataloging Comicsfilter for the Wiki. That would be badass.

My favorite quote so far: there are a number of people in the industry ... who feel that it's time to break down the continuity and try to get rid of a lot of the rather anal and obsessive attitudes that have been allowed to dominate the marketplace and to some degree have hindered it in its periodic attempts to be taken seriously.

Mr.Moore is a very smart, if not psychic, bloke.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:39 AM on January 7, 2005

I'm only a sometimes-reader of comics, so I understood about 2/3 of that, but it was pretty mindblowing just the same. Projects like this (i.e. brilliant but never properly realized) are almost better than the real thing, because the sky is the limit in your imagination.

Great post, grabbingsand.
posted by schustafa at 8:45 AM on January 7, 2005

Just got back from reading the proposal and like schustafa said, it is almost better to read it as a proposal than a finished work. It's also interesting to see how Moore constructs the story.

Great post grabbingsand! I'm a comic book geek and an Alan Moore fan and I never knew anything about this. Bring on more ComicsFilter!
posted by rks404 at 8:52 AM on January 7, 2005

When DC first acquired Wildstorm, Moore considered ditching ABC altogether. His attitude has mellowed so much that when DC (through Wildstorm) acquired some of his favorite boyhood superheroes, he approached them about working on them (despite having pronounced his retirement from mainstream comics.)

So I'm firmly committed to my firmly non-committal non-prediction about what's possible.
posted by Zed_Lopez at 8:57 AM on January 7, 2005

To counterbalance all of the coolness with some potentially troubling Alan Moore news, it looks like there's a V for Vendetta adaptation in the works, starring Natalie Portman.
posted by COBRA! at 8:58 AM on January 7, 2005

Sweet. Thanks for the post.
posted by dig_duggler at 8:58 AM on January 7, 2005

So this would've been better than The New Gods, right?

I'd pay good, good money to see Alan Moore's take on Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy. Remember the Devil Dinosaur Spring Fling? Neither do I.

on preview: V for Vendetta starring Natalie Portman!!! Sold!
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:06 AM on January 7, 2005

The movies based on other Moore books have turned out just oh-so-well...


I fear for V, truly. It's one of my absolute favorites.
posted by ipe at 9:24 AM on January 7, 2005

Excellent, excellent, post.
This is exactly the distraction I've been waiting for.

a thousand times thanks!
posted by Busithoth at 9:30 AM on January 7, 2005

I fear for V, truly. It's one of my absolute favorites.

Really? It's definitely my least favourite of Moore's comics. The story just seemed really plain and a little trite. The action doesn't seem to fit a film. Most of the comic's action sequences were done in just a few frames. Also, I thought the artwork in V was just confusing. I couldn't differentiate between the characters half of the time, they all looked alike.
posted by Evstar at 9:32 AM on January 7, 2005

I fear for V, truly.

Yes, but... Natalie Portman!
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:39 AM on January 7, 2005

Just to counter all the good-time comic book feelings we're all having, I'd like to direct you all towards the upcoming Hellblazer movie... starring Keanu Reeves as Constantine... An American Constantine... With black hair.
posted by lotsofno at 9:43 AM on January 7, 2005

I'd buy Keanu as Moon Boy but not Constantine.

One of my favorite headlines ever is from a review of the Keanu Reeves flick 'The Watcher':

"Keanu Reeves Is A Brutal Serial Killer."
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 9:54 AM on January 7, 2005

That proposal was a great read, and, man... what an opportunity to get an inside look at how Alan Moore crafts his work.

Also, I thought the artwork in V was just confusing. I couldn't differentiate between the characters half of the time, they all looked alike.

I second that, Evstar, but I still love the story.
posted by malaprohibita at 9:54 AM on January 7, 2005

Just to counter all the good-time comic book feelings we're all having, I'd like to direct you all towards the upcoming Hellblazer movie... starring Keanu Reeves as Constantine... An American Constantine... With black hair.


Who carries a gun.

And apparently makes things blow up.

Constantine is the first movie based on his creations that Moore has actuallly pre-emptively washed his hands of. Good for him. Although really, it's Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis whose baby is being chopped up.
posted by Hildago at 9:59 AM on January 7, 2005

It's been awhile since I read V for Vendetta, so I don't really remember it all too well, but I remember being fairly disappointed in it. I remember it seeming to cleave a little too close to 1984, and didn't offer many new ideas. Maybe I'll have to give it another look-see.
posted by picea at 10:16 AM on January 7, 2005

Reeves as Constantine?
I wish he'd read for the role
Of Arm-Fall-Off-Boy.
posted by eamondaly at 10:24 AM on January 7, 2005

promethea is probably my favorite comic in ages....and yes, that includes all of teh new hellblazer stuff. Of course...well...shit ok lucifer is pretty damned cool too
posted by das_2099 at 10:28 AM on January 7, 2005

Hildago- Didn't Moore tell the makers of From Hell and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen that he didn't want any money for them? Now that'sdedication to your principles.

V for Vendetta could be good. You never can tell these days. Also, I've read very positive reviews of the script for The Watchmen which is supposedly finally going to get made this year.

As far as ABC goes, from what I understand Moore is wrapping up all the series (or at least, wrapping up his storylines in them) and then "retiring" from comics. I think some of the titles, like Tom Strong (which has outstayed its welcome anyway, in my opinion) will be continuing under other writers, but Promethea, being as it is so highly personal to Moore & his magickal beliefs, will have 1 or 2 more issues, then it is done.
I just wish he would write some more Top Ten. That's one of my favorites.
posted by papakwanz at 10:34 AM on January 7, 2005

I just wish he would write some more Top Ten. That's one of my favorites.

same here. i enjoyed the early tom strong stuff, but i haven't read it in a while. the last thing i remember was tesla being saved by some fire dude inside a volcano.

if moore "retires" from comics, what is he going to do? i'd love to see him collaborate with someone on a game (video, card,board, whatever) that explores magick, maybe something based on promethea.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:43 AM on January 7, 2005

Does anyone else think that V is perhaps more relevant than ever, although the basic premise (an isolated Britian turns to facism after a nuclear holocaust) is perhaps a bit outdated?

This is one of those films that I think would require a heck of a lot of balls to pull off. V is basically a smarter and better Guy Fawkes, a terrorist mastermind that starts the story by successfully blowing up a defunct and symbolic parlament, and then goes on to a series of assassination attempts.

But wasn't this future hinted towards in Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run that introduced Constantine as the single man standing against the apocalypse by manipulating everyone else into doing his dirty work?

Hildago: Constantine is the first movie based on his creations that Moore has actuallly pre-emptively washed his hands of. Good for him. Although really, it's Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis whose baby is being chopped up.

As the owner of the entire Delano run. I'm both interested in and dreading this. My sense is that Clive Barker got it better with Lord of Illusions. And Reeves? I always imagined Kiefer Sutherland in the early 90s, but now I have a flash of Eddy Izzard who I think could go from Chaplin to a jaded punk rocker turned chain-smoking occultist.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:10 AM on January 7, 2005

*Head explodes just imagining this*

Moore's a mad genius. "Magician," too, similar to Morrison--"Magus", actually.
posted by Shane at 11:10 AM on January 7, 2005

Constantine is the first movie based on his creations that Moore has actuallly pre-emptively washed his hands of. Good for him. Although really, it's Jamie Delano and Garth Ennis whose baby is being chopped up.

I ♥ Delano's Hellblazer run, and much of Ennis's too. They're the only two besides Moore who really got him right, IMO, just really nailed him.
posted by Shane at 11:13 AM on January 7, 2005

That proposal was a great read. And a great post.
posted by Cyrano at 11:30 AM on January 7, 2005

Thus, in order to make the central storyline comprehensible to a wider audience than the trivia-mesmerized hordes of comic fandom, the link with the present can be ignored and effectively severed, leaving only a powerful and simple central story idea

Instead we got crossover series like Legends and Millennium, both the near antithesis of this, and both largely and justly forgotten.

...now I have a flash of Eddy Izzard who I think could go from Chaplin to a jaded punk rocker turned chain-smoking occultist.

Eddie Izzard as Constantine? That's completely brilliant.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 11:30 AM on January 7, 2005

Eddie Izzard as Constantine? Sure.
posted by grabbingsand at 11:51 AM on January 7, 2005

I always imagined Kiefer Sutherland in the early 90s, but now I have a flash of Eddy Izzard who I think could go from Chaplin to a jaded punk rocker turned chain-smoking occultist.

I have always imagined imagined Kiefer Sutherland as being destined for the Constantine role, despite his American-ness.
posted by lotsofno at 12:01 PM on January 7, 2005

He wanted to turn Plastic Man into a gigolo? No wonder this treatment was turned down. Too bad.
posted by painquale at 12:02 PM on January 7, 2005

Having now read the whole treatment: it could be real, and it's very interesting regardless, but I'm leaning towards hoax.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 12:15 PM on January 7, 2005

painquale: He wanted to turn Plastic Man into a gigolo? No wonder this treatment was turned down. Too bad.

Is it worse that the treatment Plastic Man received at the hands of Frank Miller.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 12:16 PM on January 7, 2005

Plastic Man's too malleable. People think they can shape him into whatever they want.

Having just finished the treatment: holy smokes, great ending.
posted by painquale at 12:21 PM on January 7, 2005

It's not a hoax, jeez.

This has been floating around the Internet for over a decade and represents work that Moore did nearly 20 years ago.

I don't see why this is so hard to understand.
posted by the wind at 1:30 PM on January 7, 2005

By the way, there's a FAQ about this on the Moore fan site.
posted by the wind at 1:34 PM on January 7, 2005

Other than the assertions from some guy on the web and some quotes on that guy's site from famous comic artists and writers that could easily be made up, where is the proof? Like for instance an interview where Alan Moore aknowledges authorship? Or A scan of the C&D letter from DC?

But as I said above it's interesting in and of itself. It doesn't have to be by Moore, but that certainly would get it passed around and looked at, wouldn't it?

On preview: that FAQ page doesn't mention Twilight of the Superheroes.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:45 PM on January 7, 2005

Fair enough. That site used to have references to Twilight, but they've since removed them. Hmmmm. Perhaps evidence that it is a hoax?

I, for one, don't think it's a hoax, simply because it reads quite a bit like Moore's writing and has been out there for a decade now. I'd be surprised if a fake proposal could last that long without being seriously challenged, especially when it's been distributed so widely at comic conventions, USENET, the Web, etc. It's not like someone just uncovered a supposedly long-lost article, I first read this thing in 1996 or so.

But, there's always the possibility that it's a hoax and Moore let it go because he finds that kind of thing amusing. Which wouldn't surprise me very much.
posted by the wind at 1:54 PM on January 7, 2005

Oddly, the main page still has the question "What is the Twilight of the Superheroes proposal?" as the link text.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:59 PM on January 7, 2005

I think an obvious choice for a film Constantine would be Sting, since the character's appearance was based on him, anyway. I could see Keifer Sutherland, IF they insisted on Americanizing John (which I'd rather not see). Or, what about Dennis Leary?

For what it is worth, I think the film of Sin City looks great, and the idea of Natalie Portman (though I am madly in love with her) in V For Vendetta makes me cringe.

I enjoyed this post-- the treatment sounded very interesting, and I think that DC pillaged it at least in part with Kingdom Come. Moore's one of my favourite writers, regardless of media, and I wish that this had been made.
posted by synecdoche at 2:03 PM on January 7, 2005

I believe some sites have been threatened with legal action from DC for posting information about Twilight. That could be interpreted two ways -- either the proposal is accurate and DC doesn't want publicity for comics it stupidly didn't produce, or it just doesn't want its "intellectual property" messed around with.

On Preview: Yeah, Waid pillaged quite a bit from this proposal for Kingdom Come. And Kingdom Come ends up looking quite the inferior product in comparison, at least to me.
posted by the wind at 2:05 PM on January 7, 2005

Yeah, Waid pillaged quite a bit from this proposal for Kingdom Come. And Kingdom Come ends up looking quite the inferior product in comparison, at least to me.

Actually, by the time Waid (and Alex Ross, who did a lot of the plotting) did Kingdom Come, there were already a bunch of stories of apocalyptic futures where the superheroes have become all grim and end up killing each other (many featuring some sort of variation on Superman vs. Batman). I don't know if they all owe a debt to Moore's Twilight proposal, but by now, it's practically a subgenre. For a while that was the plot of most of Marvel's "What-If" stories and, later, DC's Elseworld stories.

It's been done to death, so if Twilight were done today, I think it would be hard to make it interesting.

Furthermore, just from reading the proposal, it seems the first 75% of the thing would be pretty boring, nothing much happens, just Constantine wondering around giving the reader a tour of the grim future Moore imagines and then a big fight at the end.

And yeah, I didn't like Kingdom Come much either. Great art, dumb plot, and really dumb script.
posted by straight at 2:51 PM on January 7, 2005

Awesome post. I didn't know about this. Thank you very much, grabbingsand.
posted by interrobang at 3:06 PM on January 7, 2005

I don't know if they all owe a debt to Moore's Twilight proposal

The post-apocalyptic thing was fairly common, but some of the things in Twilight and Kingdom Com are too coincidental (namely the treatment of Captain Marvel). No, it isn't a direct connection, but the whole mess-with-his-psyche thing is a fairly creative move, I think, and crucial to both. I credit Waid because he didn't rip it off wholesale, as it is such a good idea (though I can imagine some pre-Vertigo DC Exec's face when he read about Captain Marvel being into S&M among other sexual fetishes).

I liked Kingdom Come; yeah, the store was lacking, but it was fun, I thought. Much better than Marvels, anyway (a point that my fellow comic book geek friend will argue with me till the day he dies).
posted by synecdoche at 5:17 PM on January 7, 2005

Regarding V for Vendetta,


... the producer on this little venture is one Joel Silver, the scriptwriters are Messrs. Larry and Andy Wachowski, and the director charged with raising the bar is one James McTeigue

I read those words and think to myself, perhaps Hollywood really is the tool of Satan.

Arseholes.
posted by fullerine at 5:52 PM on January 7, 2005

I always that James Marsters would have been the perfect John Constantine.
posted by aperture_priority at 6:27 PM on January 7, 2005

He wanted to turn Plastic Man into a gigolo? No wonder this treatment was turned down.

Well, there would be certain...*ahem*...advantages to a guy who could stetch any part of his body in that line of work.
posted by Cyrano at 6:59 PM on January 7, 2005

I liked Kingdom Come, but I also read it as a big Fuck You aimed at the various X-Knockoffs Marvel was putting out. Seeing the iconic superheroes meet what amounts to soap operas with super powers was super keen.

I wish Moore got his chance because I'd like to see more of the mythic aspect of the supers explored.

So is Absolute Power any good?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:05 PM on January 7, 2005

Long time listener first time caller :)
That has got to be the best posting I've seen in the two year's that I've been "listening" to meta. As a long time comic book nerd, now a dad, this is the kind of storytelling that kept me up nights waiting for the next issue to hit my local comic shop. Simply brilliant! Kudos an awesome post!
posted by wonway at 1:48 AM on January 8, 2005

You might be interested in the Constantine trailer. Which I thought looked pretty hot.
posted by humannature at 11:27 PM on January 8, 2005

So is Absolute Power any good?
posted by robocop is bleeding

robo, are you sure you're not thinking 'Supreme Power'?

'Supreme' is J. Michael Straczynki's baby and it's a slight offshoot of his 'Rising Stars' series. It's a grittier take on the whole super-hero thing. Not quote as ground-breaking as Moore's 'Watchmen', but pretty interesting for other reasons. It's almost a critique of the whole Superman/JLA thing, but it's not as META.

But just about any comic by JMS is probably worth a look - Supreme, Rising Stars, Amazing Spider-Man, Strange - but 'Supreme' and 'Stars' are probably the creme of the crop. Now available as trade-paperbacks (TPBs), but avoid the stuff written by his protegé, Fiona Avery (she's not all that)..
posted by vhsiv at 6:48 PM on January 10, 2005

RE: Fiona Avery - IMHO. But she's obviously a better connected writer than I, since she's got the ear of JMS and a few book deals.

She's just not my cup of tea.
posted by vhsiv at 7:01 AM on January 11, 2005