The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by Europeans.
July 8, 2005 8:49 AM Subscribe
The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by Europeans. Radical Islam is spreading across Europe among descendants of Muslim immigrants. Disenfranchised and disillusioned by the failure of integration, some European Muslims have taken up jihad against the West. They are dangerous and committed -- and can enter the United States without a visa.
Little by little the march of paranoia at what might happen is going to consume you.
Death by a thousand cuts at your own hands.....
Shake your heads.
No, I did not RTFA, I am sick of following this obsessive speculation as the media chases one possible threat after another...
Sooner or later we are going to have to accept that life has risks, and the world is not perfect. Just live dammit. Get on with it!
On a related note, is it possible to say that a culture is afflicted with OCD? How does one cure these tenancies when they are exhibited by a large population?
Just my thoughts....
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 8:58 AM on July 8, 2005
Death by a thousand cuts at your own hands.....
Shake your heads.
No, I did not RTFA, I am sick of following this obsessive speculation as the media chases one possible threat after another...
Sooner or later we are going to have to accept that life has risks, and the world is not perfect. Just live dammit. Get on with it!
On a related note, is it possible to say that a culture is afflicted with OCD? How does one cure these tenancies when they are exhibited by a large population?
Just my thoughts....
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 8:58 AM on July 8, 2005
I think you're making some assumptions about the political tilt of the article, which you may find are wrong after actually reading it.
posted by dsquid at 9:01 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by dsquid at 9:01 AM on July 8, 2005
dsquid: You are probably right. I guess that I should have made it more clear that my comment could derail the thread. My comment is not so much aimed at the content of this particular article, as it is at the trend of the content of all articles in the western media over the last 4 years. When are we going to move on? Must all Journalists try to distinguish themselves by finding the next big terrorist threat, or exposing some unknown vulnerability. I know that it has been an overused cliche, but I cannot think of any better way of saying that the Culture of Fear that we are cultivating is doing no good for anyone. We are obsessing. How do we break out of it?
On second thought, I will stop my rant, cuz this is not something that has not been said many times before by people much smarter and more influential than myself.
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 9:13 AM on July 8, 2005
On second thought, I will stop my rant, cuz this is not something that has not been said many times before by people much smarter and more influential than myself.
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 9:13 AM on July 8, 2005
> With a few exceptions, European authorities shrink from
> the relatively stout legislative and security measures
> adopted in the United States.
We say 'tomato', you say 'tomayto',
You say 'stout', we say 'oppressive'.
> Germany's failure to convict conspirators in the September
> 11 attacks suggests that the European public, outside of
> France and now perhaps the Netherlands, is not ready for
> a war on terrorism
Yeah, right. Despite the fact that here in the UK, we've
been fighting one that, for the last thirty five years has been
funded in no small measure by American donations.
But thanks for the lessons in egg-sucking, Granddaugher.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:15 AM on July 8, 2005
> the relatively stout legislative and security measures
> adopted in the United States.
We say 'tomato', you say 'tomayto',
You say 'stout', we say 'oppressive'.
> Germany's failure to convict conspirators in the September
> 11 attacks suggests that the European public, outside of
> France and now perhaps the Netherlands, is not ready for
> a war on terrorism
Yeah, right. Despite the fact that here in the UK, we've
been fighting one that, for the last thirty five years has been
funded in no small measure by American donations.
But thanks for the lessons in egg-sucking, Granddaugher.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:15 AM on July 8, 2005
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't a big reason for the lack of convictions in Germany the lack of evidence and witness sharing from American prosecutions? How anyone could take something as complex as a legal proceeding and arrive at a blanket statement about who is 'ready to fight the war on terror' is beyond me.
posted by chaz at 9:30 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by chaz at 9:30 AM on July 8, 2005
chaz writes "Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't a big reason for the lack of convictions in Germany the lack of evidence and witness sharing from American prosecutions?"
You're not wrong actually. That being said, American analysts evidently feel that Europe's refusal to trample on civil right and suspend the proper administration of the law equates with "being soft on terrorism".
posted by clevershark at 9:37 AM on July 8, 2005
You're not wrong actually. That being said, American analysts evidently feel that Europe's refusal to trample on civil right and suspend the proper administration of the law equates with "being soft on terrorism".
posted by clevershark at 9:37 AM on July 8, 2005
This article's argument rests on its sloppy- and, to my mind, reactionary- indictment of "multiculturalism" as the source of the Europe's Muslim fifth column.
Read carefully. The author equates the Netherland's generous social welfare system with "multicultural" attitudes toward religious tolerance- and his shining example of the wages of multiculturalism is that Pim Fortuyn's assasin was on unamployment benefits when he committed the murder. See also how his references to this supposedly dominant multiculturalism are coupled with his gruding acknowledgement of long-term and persistent occupational and social discrimination against Muslims.
The failire of Western Europe's policy toward Muslim immigrants isn't because of the "multiculturalist dream of diverse communities living in harmony, offering oppressed nationalities marked compassion." It's the result of the failure of European governments to back up that "dream" with a sustained program of supplementary education and job training that goes beyond sending out unemployment checks.
What does this tell us? Well, very little about multiculutralism as an approach to reconicling the fact of diversity with the need for national unity. But it tells us alot about the extent to which European countries have failed to economically integrate Muslim immgrants into mainstream society. Economic marginalization breeds social alienation and political radicalization.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 9:54 AM on July 8, 2005
Read carefully. The author equates the Netherland's generous social welfare system with "multicultural" attitudes toward religious tolerance- and his shining example of the wages of multiculturalism is that Pim Fortuyn's assasin was on unamployment benefits when he committed the murder. See also how his references to this supposedly dominant multiculturalism are coupled with his gruding acknowledgement of long-term and persistent occupational and social discrimination against Muslims.
The failire of Western Europe's policy toward Muslim immigrants isn't because of the "multiculturalist dream of diverse communities living in harmony, offering oppressed nationalities marked compassion." It's the result of the failure of European governments to back up that "dream" with a sustained program of supplementary education and job training that goes beyond sending out unemployment checks.
What does this tell us? Well, very little about multiculutralism as an approach to reconicling the fact of diversity with the need for national unity. But it tells us alot about the extent to which European countries have failed to economically integrate Muslim immgrants into mainstream society. Economic marginalization breeds social alienation and political radicalization.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 9:54 AM on July 8, 2005
JILL: Who is this war against, Sam?
SAM: Well, terrorists of course.
JILL: How many terrorists have you met? Actual terrorists?
SAM: Actual ... terrorists? Well ... it's only my first day.
posted by fungible at 9:59 AM on July 8, 2005
SAM: Well, terrorists of course.
JILL: How many terrorists have you met? Actual terrorists?
SAM: Actual ... terrorists? Well ... it's only my first day.
posted by fungible at 9:59 AM on July 8, 2005
Also in the news: The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by Americans.
posted by sfenders at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by sfenders at 10:27 AM on July 8, 2005
PeterMcDermott: Your insinuating that the U.S. is somehow responsible for IRA terrorism would be amusing if it weren't so completely wrong.
posted by oaf at 10:33 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by oaf at 10:33 AM on July 8, 2005
The next terrorist attack on America may also be perpetrated by Brazilans. But that doesn't seem as likely, since there aren't as many of them.
posted by sfenders at 10:34 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by sfenders at 10:34 AM on July 8, 2005
The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by Honda Civics.
posted by sfenders at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by sfenders at 10:38 AM on July 8, 2005
What is piss poor article. It's nothing more than blatant scaremongering and deliberate misrepresentation of the 'facts'.
posted by PurpleJack at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by PurpleJack at 10:39 AM on July 8, 2005
w00t - a reason to bomb france. Need to keep them muslims from havin terr'ist babies.
For the love of Pete.
posted by jmgorman at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2005
For the love of Pete.
posted by jmgorman at 10:42 AM on July 8, 2005
On a related note, is it possible to say that a culture is afflicted with OCD?
Sure, but a more astute diagnosis would be that our culture is afflicted with ADD.
posted by davelog at 11:16 AM on July 8, 2005
Sure, but a more astute diagnosis would be that our culture is afflicted with ADD.
posted by davelog at 11:16 AM on July 8, 2005
PeterMcDermott: Your insinuating that the U.S. is somehow responsible for IRA terrorism would be amusing if it weren't so completely wrong.
Fantastic un-backed assertion, oaf. 10 points across the board.
posted by delmoi at 11:27 AM on July 8, 2005
Hmm what marvellous clever political analysis, in no way meant to tickle the trigger-happy wingnut fantasies, nah.
So, because the first attack on America came from Saudi and Egyptian citizens yet Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed, if the next attack on the US comes from European citizens, does it mean it'll be the Philippines and Jamaica's turn to get bombed?
posted by funambulist at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2005
So, because the first attack on America came from Saudi and Egyptian citizens yet Afghanistan and Iraq were bombed, if the next attack on the US comes from European citizens, does it mean it'll be the Philippines and Jamaica's turn to get bombed?
posted by funambulist at 11:32 AM on July 8, 2005
Well now you know the next terrorists are coming from Europe that'll really cut down the number of potential suspects.
posted by dodgygeezer at 11:45 AM on July 8, 2005
posted by dodgygeezer at 11:45 AM on July 8, 2005
The article itself may have been poor, but having lived in a large immigrant community in Spain, I can say from first-hand experience that many Europeans are beginning to seethe at immigrant groups who "are not like us".
I lived for a long time in Castellon de la Plana Spain, a very nice region just north of Valencia. This is a town built on agriculture, tourism, and more recently a thriving trade in ceramics, tile and ceramic derived products.
In the last seven years or so there has been a great influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe, specifically Romania. At first the Spaniards were more than willing to open their arms, provide social services and assist. But in recent years as the trickle turned into a flood and crime increased dramatically the situation has turned. Today, citizens of Castellon are increasingly adopting "American" desires to see the immigrants speak Spanish, learn the customs, become more respectful, pay their taxes and become good citizens.
Don't even begin to get most Spaniards started on the "Moroccan situation"(read: Muslims).
It's another example of how the European legislators are often out of step with the desires/fears/concerns of most citizens. European politicians love to speak of openness, immigration and a big heart, but the average citizen would beg to differ as immigration runs amok with a poor system of checks, balances and controls in place.
I feel bad for some immigrants to Europe - countries like Spain are not very inviting for those not willing to become a little bit "Spanish" and join society and contribute. Lest we forget, however, that contrary to the popular myth, America wasn't exactly hopping for joy at the spectre of immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th Century.
posted by tgrundke at 12:20 PM on July 8, 2005
I lived for a long time in Castellon de la Plana Spain, a very nice region just north of Valencia. This is a town built on agriculture, tourism, and more recently a thriving trade in ceramics, tile and ceramic derived products.
In the last seven years or so there has been a great influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe, specifically Romania. At first the Spaniards were more than willing to open their arms, provide social services and assist. But in recent years as the trickle turned into a flood and crime increased dramatically the situation has turned. Today, citizens of Castellon are increasingly adopting "American" desires to see the immigrants speak Spanish, learn the customs, become more respectful, pay their taxes and become good citizens.
Don't even begin to get most Spaniards started on the "Moroccan situation"(read: Muslims).
It's another example of how the European legislators are often out of step with the desires/fears/concerns of most citizens. European politicians love to speak of openness, immigration and a big heart, but the average citizen would beg to differ as immigration runs amok with a poor system of checks, balances and controls in place.
I feel bad for some immigrants to Europe - countries like Spain are not very inviting for those not willing to become a little bit "Spanish" and join society and contribute. Lest we forget, however, that contrary to the popular myth, America wasn't exactly hopping for joy at the spectre of immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th Century.
posted by tgrundke at 12:20 PM on July 8, 2005
The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by bare-breasted strippers wielding whips and riding crops.
Well, it could happen. Sure, the possibility is statistically insignificant, but if it happens those who said it couldn't be will be eating their words!
posted by clevershark at 12:47 PM on July 8, 2005
Well, it could happen. Sure, the possibility is statistically insignificant, but if it happens those who said it couldn't be will be eating their words!
posted by clevershark at 12:47 PM on July 8, 2005
European politicians love to speak of openness, immigration and a big heart
You mean, politicians like Fortuyn, Le Pen, Haider, the Northern League, the BNP, UKIP-Civitas or whatever the hell it's called now, etc.?
Funny, one day, all of Europe is one big right wing populist party, the next, they're all socialists and all-we-need-is-love hippies. Reality might be a little more mixed than that.
posted by funambulist at 12:59 PM on July 8, 2005
You mean, politicians like Fortuyn, Le Pen, Haider, the Northern League, the BNP, UKIP-Civitas or whatever the hell it's called now, etc.?
Funny, one day, all of Europe is one big right wing populist party, the next, they're all socialists and all-we-need-is-love hippies. Reality might be a little more mixed than that.
posted by funambulist at 12:59 PM on July 8, 2005
and can enter the United States without a visa
Well the last lot were given visas, weren't they?
posted by jamesonandwater at 1:28 PM on July 8, 2005
Well the last lot were given visas, weren't they?
posted by jamesonandwater at 1:28 PM on July 8, 2005
It used to be called "cradle to grave socialism." No more cradles. Euros, if you can't reproduce, you have a problem. Get rid of that contraception and get busy!
posted by ParisParamus at 1:35 PM on July 8, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 1:35 PM on July 8, 2005
our insinuating that the U.S. is somehow responsible for IRA terrorism would be amusing if it weren't so completely wrong.
The Pythons are not just good at skits, they are prescient when it comes to international affairs. Terry Jones wrote this, back in 2002:
The Pythons are not just good at skits, they are prescient when it comes to international affairs. Terry Jones wrote this, back in 2002:
To prevent terrorism by dropping bombs on Iraq is such an obvious idea that I can't think why no one has thought of it before. It's so simple. If only the UK had done something similar in Northern Ireland, we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today ... It is well known that the best way of picking out terrorists is to fly 30,000ft above the capital city of any state that harbours them and drop bombs--preferably cluster bombs...posted by meehawl at 1:38 PM on July 8, 2005
Having bombed Dublin and, perhaps, a few IRA training bogs in Tipperary, we could not have afforded to be complacent. We would have had to turn our attention to those states which had supported and funded the IRA terrorists through all these years. The main provider of funds was, of course, the USA, and this would have posed us with a bit of a problem.
Where to bomb in America?
Should we have bombed Washington, where the policies were formed? Or should we have concentrated on places where Irishmen are known to lurk, like New York, Boston and Philadelphia? We could have bombed any police station and fire station in most major urban centres, secure in the knowledge that we would be taking out significant numbers of IRA sympathisers. On St Patrick's Day, we could have bombed Fifth Avenue and scored a bull's-eye.
if you can't reproduce, you have a problem.
The base fertility rate of native-born of native-born citizenry within many of the EU countries is below replacement level. However, the EU also grows by enlargement and net migration.
Total Population 1993:
EU: 368,855,000
US: 256,537,000
Total Population 2004:
EU: 456,863,000
US: 291,685,000
Net Migration 1993:
EU: 1,216,000
US: 1,059,000
Net Migration 2003/4:
EU: 2,092,000 (685,295 by CIA estimate)
US: 3.31 migrant(s)/1,000 => 965,477
Page 85 of this PDF has an interesting graph.
posted by meehawl at 2:24 PM on July 8, 2005
The base fertility rate of native-born of native-born citizenry within many of the EU countries is below replacement level. However, the EU also grows by enlargement and net migration.
Total Population 1993:
EU: 368,855,000
US: 256,537,000
Total Population 2004:
EU: 456,863,000
US: 291,685,000
Net Migration 1993:
EU: 1,216,000
US: 1,059,000
Net Migration 2003/4:
EU: 2,092,000 (685,295 by CIA estimate)
US: 3.31 migrant(s)/1,000 => 965,477
Page 85 of this PDF has an interesting graph.
posted by meehawl at 2:24 PM on July 8, 2005
Uuuhh ?
. They prefer criminal surveillance and traditional prosecutions to launching a U.S.-style "war on terrorism" and mobilizing the military, establishing detention centers, enhancing border security, requiring machine-readable passports, expelling hate preachers, and lengthening notoriously light sentences for convicted terrorists.
Uhm so far it seems "mobilizing the military" has resulted in a couple regime changes. It could be argued that a regime change in Afghanistan created some problems to the local religious zealots..they seemed to be more concerned with repressing their own people (which is bad, don't get me wrong) then attacking the whole world...but certainly it helped reduce a potential source of cheap terrorist labor for the rich Osamas around the world.
Or at least we would like to think so..as the various Osamas still can buy whoever is ruling Afghanistan or skip the problem entirely and finance the Mujaheddins deeply ingrained in the territory.
But if this is the strategy ..of buying support from the local population by offering the illusion of "freedom" western style (meaning, more money, less poverty) we'll see money isn't the solution : as we speak (afaik) the building industry has boomed in Afghanistan with the results of an enormous inflation in house prices..that now be bought only by rich westerns or well-financed ex-warlords.
As for Iraq, it already was secular and ruled by a tyran who proclaimed to be the successor of Muhammad or Saladin or some other sort of parareligious figure...and that's probably the reason behind Bush Sr. decision of letting Saddam in power...probably, another Saddam would have ruled the place but still letting room for secularism and with a lot of luck and work the creation of a powerful middle class, and a mass popular support.
----
As for the detention centers, one could argue that psycological torture could have produced some life saving information from "terrorists"... maybe also physical one.
Setting aside the idea of of using torture as barbaric and unacceptable, that still leaves us with a benefit vs costs evalutation of such detention centers.
Apparently it was a massive flop , as whatever amount of info was obtained (we'll never really know) both Abu Grabi and Guantamano gave the whole U.S. a very bad name of hypocrite abusive country not better then the people they criticize, unable to exercise any kind of moral suasion and recurring to violence for their means. Those who didn't already have a rosy picture of U.S. now have this picture under their very eyes ; which is a false picture (not all U.S. and not everyone in U.S. army is an hate filled torturer
immersed in cheap but effective jingoistic propaganda) but still it seems letting soldiers rule a prison with no supervision needs to be punished with bad publicity.
Only the acute observer would be able to notice that the so called "mainstream media" reported (even if sparsely maybe) the story of abuses in Abu Grabi and Guantanamo..and that many oppressed countries don't enjoy the positive effect of unrestricted reporter work...but the same observer would notice there are too many conflict of interest between privately owned media and public need for noticeable wistleblowing
---
As for border security..I don't really know, but it seems like ideas can cross borders no matter how tight the control....machine readable passports ? Sslightly harder to reproduce maybe, but nothing is impossible for a strongly motivated person..which includes terrorist...also one has to find someone to ask him/her for the passport.
Expelling hate preachers ? I didn't know they expelled O'Reilly, Limbaugh and Coulter.
posted by elpapacito at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2005
. They prefer criminal surveillance and traditional prosecutions to launching a U.S.-style "war on terrorism" and mobilizing the military, establishing detention centers, enhancing border security, requiring machine-readable passports, expelling hate preachers, and lengthening notoriously light sentences for convicted terrorists.
Uhm so far it seems "mobilizing the military" has resulted in a couple regime changes. It could be argued that a regime change in Afghanistan created some problems to the local religious zealots..they seemed to be more concerned with repressing their own people (which is bad, don't get me wrong) then attacking the whole world...but certainly it helped reduce a potential source of cheap terrorist labor for the rich Osamas around the world.
Or at least we would like to think so..as the various Osamas still can buy whoever is ruling Afghanistan or skip the problem entirely and finance the Mujaheddins deeply ingrained in the territory.
But if this is the strategy ..of buying support from the local population by offering the illusion of "freedom" western style (meaning, more money, less poverty) we'll see money isn't the solution : as we speak (afaik) the building industry has boomed in Afghanistan with the results of an enormous inflation in house prices..that now be bought only by rich westerns or well-financed ex-warlords.
As for Iraq, it already was secular and ruled by a tyran who proclaimed to be the successor of Muhammad or Saladin or some other sort of parareligious figure...and that's probably the reason behind Bush Sr. decision of letting Saddam in power...probably, another Saddam would have ruled the place but still letting room for secularism and with a lot of luck and work the creation of a powerful middle class, and a mass popular support.
----
As for the detention centers, one could argue that psycological torture could have produced some life saving information from "terrorists"... maybe also physical one.
Setting aside the idea of of using torture as barbaric and unacceptable, that still leaves us with a benefit vs costs evalutation of such detention centers.
Apparently it was a massive flop , as whatever amount of info was obtained (we'll never really know) both Abu Grabi and Guantamano gave the whole U.S. a very bad name of hypocrite abusive country not better then the people they criticize, unable to exercise any kind of moral suasion and recurring to violence for their means. Those who didn't already have a rosy picture of U.S. now have this picture under their very eyes ; which is a false picture (not all U.S. and not everyone in U.S. army is an hate filled torturer
immersed in cheap but effective jingoistic propaganda) but still it seems letting soldiers rule a prison with no supervision needs to be punished with bad publicity.
Only the acute observer would be able to notice that the so called "mainstream media" reported (even if sparsely maybe) the story of abuses in Abu Grabi and Guantanamo..and that many oppressed countries don't enjoy the positive effect of unrestricted reporter work...but the same observer would notice there are too many conflict of interest between privately owned media and public need for noticeable wistleblowing
---
As for border security..I don't really know, but it seems like ideas can cross borders no matter how tight the control....machine readable passports ? Sslightly harder to reproduce maybe, but nothing is impossible for a strongly motivated person..which includes terrorist...also one has to find someone to ask him/her for the passport.
Expelling hate preachers ? I didn't know they expelled O'Reilly, Limbaugh and Coulter.
posted by elpapacito at 2:53 PM on July 8, 2005
America wasn't exactly hopping for joy at the spectre of immigrants in the late 19th/early 20th Century.
Or even late 18th/early 19th century
posted by IndigoJones at 3:23 PM on July 8, 2005
Or even late 18th/early 19th century
posted by IndigoJones at 3:23 PM on July 8, 2005
and committed -- and can
Is this the first recorded instance of a "scare em-dash"?
posted by mwhybark at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2005
Is this the first recorded instance of a "scare em-dash"?
posted by mwhybark at 5:35 PM on July 8, 2005
The next terrorist attack on America may be perpetrated by George W. Bush's dishonest, disastrous, uneducated and utterly incompetent foreign policies.
posted by threehundredandsixty at 7:03 AM on July 9, 2005
posted by threehundredandsixty at 7:03 AM on July 9, 2005
President Bush's foreign (and domestic) policies have been magnificent. Biggest concern: who will succeed(sp?) him? Who can lead an adminstration to keep the terrorists and Euroweasles at bey? I hope, as a nation, we can find someone.
And may "Gitmo," perhaps the most humane prisoner camp of its kind in history not change at all, for as long as it's necessary.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2005
And may "Gitmo," perhaps the most humane prisoner camp of its kind in history not change at all, for as long as it's necessary.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:25 AM on July 9, 2005
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Ohhh... fertility rates...
Will the Muslim womb be europe's tomb?
posted by delmoi at 8:56 AM on July 8, 2005