Hustler, the SFW kind

November 11, 2005 10:22 AM

The Pool Hustler. Long an American icon, pool hustlers have all but disappeared. They enjoyed a brief resurgence in the 60’s when pool became popular again, thanks to “The Hustler”. Interest waned through the 70’s, until Newman and Cruise made hustling cool again in “The Color of Money”. Is pool, and by extension hustling, due for a new renaissance?
posted by cosmicbandito (46 comments total)

Further reading:

• The Billiard Congress of America has a brief write up on the history of Pool.
• "Hustler Days" chronicles the exploits of three great hustlers and offers interesting perspectives on the social aspects of the pool hall.
• Walter Tevis wrote the novels that “The Hustler” and “The Color of Money” were based on.

posted by cosmicbandito at 10:24 AM on November 11, 2005

Don't hit a bunch of carriage returns before you submit your post. And especially don't do it on the front page.
posted by jonson at 10:28 AM on November 11, 2005

Also, (and sorry to be so on the attack here) but a link to a jpg of a college dorm poster & two imdb entries is really not great subject matter for a front page post...
posted by jonson at 10:30 AM on November 11, 2005

The practical reality of pool hustling is that if you take more than $50 to $100 from a stranger at a bar you risk getting beaten up.
posted by StickyCarpet at 10:32 AM on November 11, 2005

"Further" reading? You didn't give us anything to read in the first place.
posted by Manhasset at 10:33 AM on November 11, 2005

I like to play pool, but god I hate the fact that pool halls are all complete dives and attract a hoosier crowd.

It needs an image change. Or I need to find some hidden upscale pool hall that caters to educated, employed people with all of their teeth.
posted by pieoverdone at 10:34 AM on November 11, 2005

It needs an image change. Or I need to find some hidden upscale pool hall that caters to educated, employed people with all of their teeth.

[summon jonmc]
posted by delmoi at 10:36 AM on November 11, 2005

Having been an adult at the time that The Color of Money was released, I can attest that the movie generated no interest in anything, including itself.
posted by QuietDesperation at 10:37 AM on November 11, 2005

Is pool, and by extension hustling, due for a new renaissance?
Well, Poolhall Junkies doesn't seem to have made pool cool again in 2002, so all signs point to no.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2005

I played in a pool league when I was in New Jersey, and although it did take place in bars it didn't conform to the image of a seedy, dangerous game. In fact in playoffs and in individual competitions you could easily find yourself playing against a little old lady in her 50s.

Of course if the pool hall you pick is some dive next to the bus station, well, YMMV.
posted by clevershark at 10:46 AM on November 11, 2005

All the pool hustlers have moved on to Textas Hold'Em.
posted by afx114 at 10:50 AM on November 11, 2005

Old and Busted: Pool
New Hotness: Darts
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:52 AM on November 11, 2005

Ten non-original-poster comments and only one pointing out that this is a contentless post.

Curious.
posted by gramschmidt at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2005

Pool, and by extension hustling, is popular in SE Asia. No need for a renaissance.
posted by the cuban at 10:55 AM on November 11, 2005

Is pool, and by extension hustling, due for a new renaissance?

No. The question assumes that all culture is cyclical and anything from the past will eventually come back. Sure, in the case of 80's music, that might be true, But its not always the case.
posted by brucec at 10:56 AM on November 11, 2005

I like to play pool, but god I hate the fact that pool halls are all complete dives and attract a hoosier crowd.

Funny, I'm in NY and feel the exact opposite. there are maybe two or three real dive pool halls left in NYC, Broadway billiards and Fat Cat billiards are two that I know of, not sure if City Hall billiards is still in business. The last time I went to play pool in Westchester, there was a Kareoke machine set to 11. I almosts gave up pool AND music that night.
posted by any major dude at 11:01 AM on November 11, 2005 [1 favorite has favorites]

pool hall you pick is some dive next to the bus station

Worse. Affton.
posted by pieoverdone at 11:02 AM on November 11, 2005

Agreed, bars may have pool tables, but most of the pool halls I've been in have been far from shady. Although one did have a lot of SE asian gang members, I didn't feel like I was in a "seedy" joint.

I wonder what the smoking bans some cities have enacted has done to pool hall attendence?
posted by infowar at 11:06 AM on November 11, 2005

All the pool hustlers have moved on to Textas Hold'Em.

and those that didn't got elected to Congress.
posted by any major dude at 11:09 AM on November 11, 2005

Anyone at Metafilter interested in playing Internet Equal Offense?

This is the setup (taken from a post at SDMB):

-------------
1) You rack 15 balls, and break them open.

2) Pick up the cueball after the break, and place it anywhere on the table you would like. Then start shooting. Stop when you miss a ball. Count the number of balls you have sunk. That is your score for the 'inning'. Ten innings makes up a game. At the end, your cumulative 10 inning score is your final game score.

3) If you sink 14 of the 15 balls, you re-rack the 14, leaving the last ball and cueball where they were. The object is to try to pocket the last ball while sending the cueball into the rack, breaking open the other balls. If you sink a ball, keep shooting until you've sunk at most five balls.

4) The best possible score for an inning is therefore 20, and the best possible IEO score is 200.
------------

This is the distribution of scores:

-------------

                            Better than     Score
                                 5%	        25
				10%		35
				15%		41
				20%		47
				25%		51
				30%		55
				35%		59
				40%		64
				45%		68
				50%		71
				55%		76
				60%		80
				65%		85
				70%		91
				75%		98
				80%		106
				85%		114
				90%		125
				95%		136
				99%		160

-------------
posted by Gyan at 11:38 AM on November 11, 2005

If the table don't take quarters, I don't play.
posted by eamondaly at 11:43 AM on November 11, 2005

[summon jonmc]

Eh, I've seen great pool (and I'm a decent player, but by no means hustler level) played everywhere from dives to gay bars to upscale places to Boston Billiards mall type joints. I saw a guy place one ball inside the rack and shoot at the rack pop the ball out and sink it, once. He looked like the stereotypcal hustler (slicked back hair, shiny shirt, one earring, toothpick in mouth), but that was a badass trick.

Also the screenplay to Color Of Money was written by my favorite author.
posted by jonmc at 11:51 AM on November 11, 2005

There is somewhat of a revival in my neck of the woods (Montreal, Canada) with a local franchise catouring to the clubbing generation. The franchise has been experiencing some tremendous growth for the last 10 years. They're located in the suburbs and they've combined the pool hall with the sports bar. Consequently, I think they've stumbled upon the 18-30 demographic goldmine. It's really one of the only fun places to drink for these 18-year-old surburbanites.
posted by freakystyley at 11:52 AM on November 11, 2005

Is pool, and by extension hustling, due for a new renaissance?

anything is possible in a day when poker is on tv.
posted by 3.2.3 at 11:53 AM on November 11, 2005

My apologies for the "contentless" post, but I found very few resources on this topic anywhere on the net. I felt is was still worth bringing up, becase of the conversation that might be generated by the post. If you feel it's a crap post, flag it. I have no problem with seeing my posts pulled if they are a detriment to the 'filter.
posted by cosmicbandito at 12:06 PM on November 11, 2005

How many of you know of a genuine pool hall within 10 miles of you? Not a bar with a table, but a pool hall that rents tables by the hour. I know out here in flyover country, we don't have them anymore.
posted by cosmicbandito at 12:09 PM on November 11, 2005

I'm with the major dude. There are a lot of pool halls in the NYC area, and almost none of them are divey. There seemed to be a pool renaissance around here a decade ago, and while some of the new places born during that renaissance have closed, a lot are still open. There are certainly a lot more pool halls around than bowling alleys.

There should be a web site which enables people to find the nearest pool table, bowling alley, ping pong table etc.
posted by spira at 12:11 PM on November 11, 2005

cosmicbandito: I do! The one I usually go to has around 30 tables (non-arcade), always paid by the hour.
posted by freakystyley at 12:19 PM on November 11, 2005

Two highly recommended books on pool hustling: Robert Byrne's McGoorty : A Pool Room Hustler and David McCumber's Playing Off the Rail: A Pool Hustler's Journey. The former details the life and times of a 1920's-era pool hustler -- a real Runyonesque character, while the latter follows a modern-day pool hustler on the road for a several month journey in search of large cash games, with some pretty fascinating descriptions of same.

Y'know, there's a reason why pool hustling is a dying art -- it takes a lot of skill, and an inordinate amount of time to get that good. It also takes a large supply of other players willing to bet money on their own skill. And you need access to a pool table. When I was in college (1982-86) I was a dedicated student of the game...but I quickly realized that there was no money in it. In retrospect, I was at best middling good, but I was game and was eager to play for cash...but beyond the basic $5 bar games, there wasn't much out there. You pretty much played because you loved the game.

By contrast, poker has ALWAYS been a money game, and I think the recent explosion of poker has been the true gambling/hustling renaissance. If you're going to invest the time to develop a good vice, put it into your poker game. Poker, and internet poker especially, is the modern equivalent of the old pool hall...except that it is in your home, 24/7, and you have the ability to play multiple games at once, at 2X to 3X the pace of games in brick and mortar casinos, pretty much anonymously, for much greater sums that you could scrounge up hustling pool. I still love pool (and snooker), but online poker is a much more lucrative avenue for this sort of endeavor.
posted by mosk at 12:23 PM on November 11, 2005

...but I found very few resources on this topic anywhere on the net. I felt is was still worth bringing up, becase of the conversation that might be generated by the post.

I think, by the MeFi Guidelines saying "Make sure you're linking to something on the web," that you can't find anything on the web, really, about this topic makes this flag-worthy. But I won't bring out the "get your own blog" chestnut...since there does seem to be some vaguely decent discussion going on.

But what's the difference between this and a post that says:

"POOL: what do you think?"
posted by tpl1212 at 12:26 PM on November 11, 2005

I like bars with pool tables. It means I might get a chance to practive my escrima skillz.
I don't know anyone who is that good at pool anymore or who will bet on it. I'm fairly terrible at pool, so if someone starts talking money I wouldn't do it. Air hockey on the other hand...
posted by Smedleyman at 12:31 PM on November 11, 2005

gyan: The IEO site makes my eyes hurt, but sounds like an interesting game. Makes for a nice way to practice. I ought to try this out! Thanks!
posted by freakystyley at 12:34 PM on November 11, 2005

"POOL: what do you think?"
posted by tpl1212 at 12:26 PM PST on November 11 [!]"

I think he’s alluding to the mystique that pool had vs. just the game itself. I suspect that if socio economic conditions were the same as they were years ago - e.g. one person working able to support a family, less family oriented social interaction, etc., there might well still be a market for hustlers. As it is, I agree with much of the above - it’s poker now and all the hustlers tend to be poker ‘bots.

This could be related to the loss of ‘cool’ in our society.
Pool hustlers are entirely cool.

Although those little riced out cars and hoopties and illegal street racing seem to be teh new cool - albeit, just the mystique of it, not that many people actually seems to race for pink slips or anything. Dancing was big for a bit (Salsa, et. al). I wouldn’t call it cool, strictly speaking. Jive dancing was nearly cool.

I dunno - are there places to go and be cool anymore? It seems something one tends to do more in repose.

Also “Hustler, the sfw kind”, made me chuckle.
posted by Smedleyman at 12:40 PM on November 11, 2005

I've always wanted to open a bar that just had circular, stool-height sand filled tables in which you could play a game of marbles.
posted by tpl1212 at 12:43 PM on November 11, 2005

I just realized that one of pool's problem is that it's not the most affordable "cool" activity out there in the sense that most people don't have the space for a pool table, nor can they afford one. Texas hold'em, on the other hand... all you need is a pack of cards and chips can be replaced with anything, from loose change to oreo cookies.
posted by freakystyley at 12:47 PM on November 11, 2005

How many of you know of a genuine pool hall within 10 miles of you?

there's probably two dozen in my medium sized town, only a few of which are dives. they seem to be popular with the college drop-out crowd. not much money to be made there.
posted by 3.2.3 at 12:55 PM on November 11, 2005

A good rule of thumb that I've found is that any bar with a line of Harleys parked in front is good pickings for hustling (either for drinks or cash). The harder the crowd, the more likely you are to get punched if you hustle for more than $40 a person. The key to good hustling is to look like the regulars, which usually translates to a ratty t-shirt and jeans and no shaving for 3 days.

I've played around the country and can say that the best place to play for money is in Colorado Springs (if you are good enough to win). Lots of biker bars and some stiff competition from the older guys.

In the suburbs of Atlanta, there's some decent pool halls in the Marietta area where there's a lot of APA league action, but it's easy to find the wrong team (example: my team always celebrated a win or loss Thursday night by going out afterwards and doing copious amounts of coke until 6am). Gambling is good in bars with coin tables late at night when everyone's drunk.

Now that i'm in Cleveland, all I've found is some dive bars where I can hustle people for drinks and shots. Everyone here plays darts or is too broke to gamble on pool.
posted by StephenV at 1:30 PM on November 11, 2005

There is a new renaissance here in San Diego, and it has to do with BOARD GAMES in bars. Check it: www.friendschill.com (sorry for the semi-self link). It gets packed every Tuesday as people come to sip on alcoholic beverages and search through the two chests of classic and newer boardgames: Scrabble, Trouble, Shutes & Ladders, Battleship, Boggle, Connect 4, Uno, etc, etc.. even classic Nintendo projected on the bigscreen. I've seen some hussling going on there playing the Mexican bingo-style game called Loteria. Big-time $2 pots.

There is a pool table and dartboard too, but 95% of the people are glued to the boardgames of their childhood.

There has been a lot of press on the night and from what I hear, the board game craze is spreading to other bars and other cities. Anyone know if this is happening in other cities?
posted by afx114 at 3:27 PM on November 11, 2005

and those that didn't got elected to Congress

He was talking about the pool hustlers, not the hustlers that you see doing business at the Lincoln Tunnel.

A few pool hustlers in Congress would raise the tone of the place.

Big recommendations for this book on pool hustling though.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:24 PM on November 11, 2005

Damn. Sorry, hadn't gotten down as far as mosk's post. That'll teach me to read everything before I pull the posting trigger.

Not familiar with McGoorty though. I'll dig it out. I've never played pool and had no real interest in pool until I read the McCumber -- though I've always loved The Hustler. Watched it again recently, and it's as good as it always was.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:28 PM on November 11, 2005

"Anyone know if this is happening in other cities?
posted by afx114 at 3:27 PM PST on November 11 [!]"

The Blue Frog out here in Chicago has had board games since....hell, I can't remember when. Long time. Nothing like beer, chips, and Risk.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:37 PM on November 11, 2005

I agree with you, Peter -- I saw The Hustler again recently, and it is just a phenomenal movie. It's no wonder it spawned a rebirth of pool and hustling; if it had been about French cooking, it would have spawned a similar boom about making crêpes and soufflés. The Paul Newman/George C. Scott dynamic is completely captivating, and between Jackie Gleason doing his own shots and Willie Mosconi serving as technical advisor, the movie just oozes credibility. It also captures the emotional aspects of hustling/gambling better than any other movie I've seen, like this conversation between Fast Eddie, the hustler, and Bert, his backer:

Eddie (after losing to the rich Southern gentleman at billiards): Don't quit me, Bert. I can beat this guy.
Bert (with steely assurance): I know you can beat him, Eddie. The question is, will you?

Unfortunately, The Color of Money was pale by comparison, and lacked the necessary gravitas. IMO, The Hustler is the best movie about gambling ever made, period. We need a renaissance of movies that are this good far more than we need a renaissance of actual pool hustling.
posted by mosk at 8:52 PM on November 11, 2005

For serious pool watching (sweating, it is called), you don't want to watch penny ante hustlers. Often, their skills are in conning, intimidating, and playing mind games. The top players in the world all know each others' skill levels and therefore hustling is not possible at these high levels. They set up "match play" propositions--spotting each other some minor advantage as they see fit and play for a big pot of money (usually provided by a backer). Sometimes they conspire to defraud the backer and split the pot, but usually they just play to win. Pool is a fascinating game of extremely high skill and many a casual player has crossed the line into addiction. If you ever get the chance to watch someone of the level of Efren Reyes play the game, make sure you take advantage of the opportunity.
posted by a_day_late at 9:02 PM on November 11, 2005

This game is much more fun. Get a trial and check it out.
posted by LB at 5:02 AM on November 12, 2005

Dr. Tongue: "I'm a hustler! A hustler!!"
Woody Tobias, Jr.: "Well, I get around pretty well myself, but I don't go bragging about it..."
- SCTV
posted by Zack_Replica at 11:36 AM on November 12, 2005

I've got three rather nice halls right around my place. Hustling doesn't really go on much at any of them and if you do get some action going, it's not for much. No one is dumb enough to start waving serious cash around - someone would pay them a visit in the bathroom.

There's a hall right down the street, Karen Corr and Julie Kelly are there often - kind of their homebase. It's something to watch them play. Their level of skill is just amazing. I usually walk out of the place disgusted with myself. Oh well...
posted by j.p. Hung at 8:16 PM on November 12, 2005