9/11 in Comics
December 4, 2005 10:13 AM Subscribe
9/11 in comics, including the black-covered The Amazing Spider-Man #36 in its entirety.
If it's a double let me know so I can flag the shit out of myself. Ta.
posted by nthdegx at 10:19 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by nthdegx at 10:19 AM on December 4, 2005
I don't think it's a double; metafilter just generally doesn't do copyright infringement well (if that's actually what this is.)
Just a forewarning.
posted by interrobang at 10:21 AM on December 4, 2005
Just a forewarning.
posted by interrobang at 10:21 AM on December 4, 2005
That Amazing Spider-Man was... just wow.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:30 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 10:30 AM on December 4, 2005
You, it's not really a warning when you shout "mind the bus" if it was you that pushed the guy into the street. Any way...
posted by nthdegx at 10:30 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by nthdegx at 10:30 AM on December 4, 2005
You, it's not really a warning when you shout "mind the bus" if it was you that pushed the guy into the street. Any way...
My apologies. I've flagged my own posts as "noise".
posted by interrobang at 10:33 AM on December 4, 2005
My apologies. I've flagged my own posts as "noise".
posted by interrobang at 10:33 AM on December 4, 2005
They forgot Neil Gaiman's Sandman: The Wheel. That's inexcusable.
posted by gd779 at 10:34 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by gd779 at 10:34 AM on December 4, 2005
What happened to Captain America before?
Maybe it's an allusion to Captain America's involvement in World War II?
posted by interrobang at 10:37 AM on December 4, 2005
Maybe it's an allusion to Captain America's involvement in World War II?
posted by interrobang at 10:37 AM on December 4, 2005
Bingo, pearl harbor was also a foreign attack on american soil. I expect that's what the allusion was.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:45 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by Karmakaze at 10:45 AM on December 4, 2005
Thanks for posting these links!
It's interesting seeing the response to 9/11 is this form. What strikes me now, as an American with a bit of distance from the events, is how the country just seemingly didn't know what do on a large scale, there was just so much shock, the general public had never even considered such a thing. Had the events of the movie "Independence Day" happened for real we would have have been just as shocked, perhaps more so.
It's also odd to see see the American comic styles invovled in this. It seems almost juvenile and cartoonish.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:49 AM on December 4, 2005
It's interesting seeing the response to 9/11 is this form. What strikes me now, as an American with a bit of distance from the events, is how the country just seemingly didn't know what do on a large scale, there was just so much shock, the general public had never even considered such a thing. Had the events of the movie "Independence Day" happened for real we would have have been just as shocked, perhaps more so.
It's also odd to see see the American comic styles invovled in this. It seems almost juvenile and cartoonish.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:49 AM on December 4, 2005
Unsurprisingly, Alan Moore's 'This is Information' published in DC's '9-11 Artists Respond, Volume 1' was probably the best of these.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:54 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:54 AM on December 4, 2005
It's also odd to see see the American comic styles invovled in this. It seems almost juvenile and cartoonish.
Juvenile and cartoonish? They're superhero comics. For the most part that's what they are, and there's not neccesarily anything wrong with that.
posted by jonmc at 11:04 AM on December 4, 2005
Juvenile and cartoonish? They're superhero comics. For the most part that's what they are, and there's not neccesarily anything wrong with that.
posted by jonmc at 11:04 AM on December 4, 2005
Wouldn't 9/11 be just another day for a superhero?
posted by unsupervised at 11:08 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by unsupervised at 11:08 AM on December 4, 2005
Fascinating stuff. And this stone heart was moved by the Amazing Spider-Man comic. As silly as, say, Dr. Doom crying over Ground Zero may seem, the writer and artist behind that statement truly meant something by it.
...
Derail: I explored the site whence came these comics, and this political cartoon seems fairly dada to me.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2005
...
Derail: I explored the site whence came these comics, and this political cartoon seems fairly dada to me.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2005
I love this. Try as I may, I could never get my hands on a copy of Issue #36. Thank you.
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2005
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but I wish the visited and unvisited links weren't the same color. Makes reading these comics a bit difficult...
posted by Ian A.T. at 11:31 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by Ian A.T. at 11:31 AM on December 4, 2005
Are all modern Marvel (and the such) comics that cheesy?
No.
posted by martinrebas at 11:40 AM on December 4, 2005
No.
posted by martinrebas at 11:40 AM on December 4, 2005
blech. glad I didn't pay for these.
thanks for the link!
posted by Busithoth at 11:49 AM on December 4, 2005
thanks for the link!
posted by Busithoth at 11:49 AM on December 4, 2005
Thank you for pointing this out. I guess I gotta think about how I feel about this. I still mourn those lost.
posted by TheStorm at 11:52 AM on December 4, 2005
posted by TheStorm at 11:52 AM on December 4, 2005
Not quite a double, but I posted everything else on this site before.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:12 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 12:12 PM on December 4, 2005
Four years on, and I can't think of any immediate responses to 9/11 that don't seem ridiculous or stupid today. (Including my own!) These comics are just awful.
Of course, it's a little harder to stomach all that "who could've imagined" crap when we now know it was all imagined quite well in advance, thanks -- Able Danger, the long-suppressed Bin Laden memo, Project for the New American Century, the "Lone Gunmen," all the "drills" on 9/11 that ensured nothing would stop four passenger jets' leisurely morning of destruction, etc. But beyond all that (ha ... there is no getting beyond all that), the sheer stupidity and forgetfulness of our country (myself included) is just remarkable.
How the hell could you, me or Spiderman forget the WTC was bombed by "Islamic terrorists" just a few years earlier? Or how the federal building in OK City was blown to bits even more recently? Or how the so-called Millennium Plot was supposed to blow up LAX on New Year's 2000? (Jesus, people were scared to even be in an airplane on New Year's Eve, because our Number One Fear was that all the planes would fall out of the sky. That would've made 9/11 look positively trivial!) Why can't we remember anything? Is it possible for a country to remember stuff without being batshiat crazy like the Balkans?
Anyway ... I'm sure glad we no longer have to pretend to like goddamned cops.
posted by kenlayne at 12:51 PM on December 4, 2005
Of course, it's a little harder to stomach all that "who could've imagined" crap when we now know it was all imagined quite well in advance, thanks -- Able Danger, the long-suppressed Bin Laden memo, Project for the New American Century, the "Lone Gunmen," all the "drills" on 9/11 that ensured nothing would stop four passenger jets' leisurely morning of destruction, etc. But beyond all that (ha ... there is no getting beyond all that), the sheer stupidity and forgetfulness of our country (myself included) is just remarkable.
How the hell could you, me or Spiderman forget the WTC was bombed by "Islamic terrorists" just a few years earlier? Or how the federal building in OK City was blown to bits even more recently? Or how the so-called Millennium Plot was supposed to blow up LAX on New Year's 2000? (Jesus, people were scared to even be in an airplane on New Year's Eve, because our Number One Fear was that all the planes would fall out of the sky. That would've made 9/11 look positively trivial!) Why can't we remember anything? Is it possible for a country to remember stuff without being batshiat crazy like the Balkans?
Anyway ... I'm sure glad we no longer have to pretend to like goddamned cops.
posted by kenlayne at 12:51 PM on December 4, 2005
I'm sure glad we no longer have to pretend to like goddamned cops.
speak for yourself, mister.
posted by jonmc at 1:23 PM on December 4, 2005
speak for yourself, mister.
posted by jonmc at 1:23 PM on December 4, 2005
Yeah, that spider man one is a little over the top (although maybe I'd feel differently if the country were in different hands).
posted by gsteff at 1:24 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by gsteff at 1:24 PM on December 4, 2005
I still like the post 9/11 GYWO comics a great deal.
As for the Spiderman comic, I liked it pretty well, though parts of it brought out some bitter laughter: the parts about us all ordinary people coming together to rise to the challenge and be stronger than before or whatever, plus the guy in the FEMA jacket. And I don't buy Dr. Doom crying for innocents either. Dude probably teleported to his own undisclosed bunker after the second plane hit, and started making phone calls to get in on some of that military contracting.
posted by furiousthought at 1:39 PM on December 4, 2005
As for the Spiderman comic, I liked it pretty well, though parts of it brought out some bitter laughter: the parts about us all ordinary people coming together to rise to the challenge and be stronger than before or whatever, plus the guy in the FEMA jacket. And I don't buy Dr. Doom crying for innocents either. Dude probably teleported to his own undisclosed bunker after the second plane hit, and started making phone calls to get in on some of that military contracting.
posted by furiousthought at 1:39 PM on December 4, 2005
Ok. Thanks to those who answered my Captain America question. I expect you're right, although I don't buy the analogy at all and it makes me dislike the comic that much more.
I'm with kenlayne as far as the 'failure to imagine' goes. And a creator of fiction claiming himself incapable of understanding the motives or processes of "madmen" is paying no small insult to himself. If he really thinks that the villains he writes about would have all been there shoulder to shoulder with the firemen, then how boring his stories must be.
I did like that early frame, though, in which someone running away from the wreckage asks Spidey why he hadn't been able to stop it.
Seems like having Peter Parker on the scene as a reporter would have made a lot more sense.
posted by bingo at 1:59 PM on December 4, 2005
I'm with kenlayne as far as the 'failure to imagine' goes. And a creator of fiction claiming himself incapable of understanding the motives or processes of "madmen" is paying no small insult to himself. If he really thinks that the villains he writes about would have all been there shoulder to shoulder with the firemen, then how boring his stories must be.
I did like that early frame, though, in which someone running away from the wreckage asks Spidey why he hadn't been able to stop it.
Seems like having Peter Parker on the scene as a reporter would have made a lot more sense.
posted by bingo at 1:59 PM on December 4, 2005
What made the Spider Man comic significant is that it was a comic willing to acknowledge what had happened in a moment when pop culture was trying to scrub all references to bombs, explosions, and large towers in major cities. The Spiderman comic was a "first draft" of dealing with September 11th which, thankfully, had a bit more thought put into it than The West Wing's "very special episode" addressing Sept. 11th.
Also, keep in mind that in the immediate aftermath of September 11th, people were less willing to be cynical about human motives and were willing to be earnest about the "this will only bring us together and make us strong." 12 months later, of course, with Andrew Card saying with respect for the push to build up support for the iarq war in September, 2002, "you don't unveil a new product in August," we went back to our pre-Sept.-11th cynicism, making the earnestness of Spiderman #36 seem schmaltzy. And that's a shame, I liked it at the time. It hasn't aged well because of the actions of the White House administration.
Seems like having Peter Parker on the scene as a reporter would have made a lot more sense.
Probably so. Coincidently, at the same time Spiderman #36 came out, so did a 4-issue miniseries called Deadline, focusing on a Daily Bugle reporter. A few years later, The Pulse, also focusing on Daily Bugle reporters, became a regular marvel comic series. Had Marvel come up with this idea before September 11th, they probably would have been more likely to focus on, say, Peter Parker's civilian perspective.
posted by deanc at 2:29 PM on December 4, 2005
Also, keep in mind that in the immediate aftermath of September 11th, people were less willing to be cynical about human motives and were willing to be earnest about the "this will only bring us together and make us strong." 12 months later, of course, with Andrew Card saying with respect for the push to build up support for the iarq war in September, 2002, "you don't unveil a new product in August," we went back to our pre-Sept.-11th cynicism, making the earnestness of Spiderman #36 seem schmaltzy. And that's a shame, I liked it at the time. It hasn't aged well because of the actions of the White House administration.
Seems like having Peter Parker on the scene as a reporter would have made a lot more sense.
Probably so. Coincidently, at the same time Spiderman #36 came out, so did a 4-issue miniseries called Deadline, focusing on a Daily Bugle reporter. A few years later, The Pulse, also focusing on Daily Bugle reporters, became a regular marvel comic series. Had Marvel come up with this idea before September 11th, they probably would have been more likely to focus on, say, Peter Parker's civilian perspective.
posted by deanc at 2:29 PM on December 4, 2005
I understand, and remember, that emotions were running strong at the time, but jesus. That Spiderman comic is too much.
Are all modern Marvel (and the such) comics that cheesy?
posted by item at 1:51 PM EST on December 4 [!]
No, they're not *that* cheesy, and as much as I respect J. Michael Straczynski as a comic book writer, I winced when I got to his bit about the children and whatever we were supposed to tell them. That's a softball, if ever there was one. By the last frame, I felt as though I was being served a piping-hot plate of propaganda.
Simplistic and disappointing from someone who's presented us with the nuanced and cautionary tale of Mark Milton (a would-be Superman) in Supreme Power.
Supreme Power does to Superman what Frank Miller did to Batman in The Dark Knight Returns. A double achievement, considering the source material, Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme was so puerile.
Groundbreaking, it might have been, but SS is absolutely PAINFUL to try to read in 2005. People who compare Gruenwald to Alan Moore don't know what they're talking about...
posted by vhsiv at 3:55 PM on December 4, 2005
Are all modern Marvel (and the such) comics that cheesy?
posted by item at 1:51 PM EST on December 4 [!]
No, they're not *that* cheesy, and as much as I respect J. Michael Straczynski as a comic book writer, I winced when I got to his bit about the children and whatever we were supposed to tell them. That's a softball, if ever there was one. By the last frame, I felt as though I was being served a piping-hot plate of propaganda.
Simplistic and disappointing from someone who's presented us with the nuanced and cautionary tale of Mark Milton (a would-be Superman) in Supreme Power.
Supreme Power does to Superman what Frank Miller did to Batman in The Dark Knight Returns. A double achievement, considering the source material, Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme was so puerile.
Groundbreaking, it might have been, but SS is absolutely PAINFUL to try to read in 2005. People who compare Gruenwald to Alan Moore don't know what they're talking about...
posted by vhsiv at 3:55 PM on December 4, 2005
I liked that ASM when it came out, but always had a problem with the villians condemning this.
I mean, they're villians who have tried to do the same or worse (espeically in Doom's case).
nice post though.
posted by dig_duggler at 4:17 PM on December 4, 2005
I mean, they're villians who have tried to do the same or worse (espeically in Doom's case).
nice post though.
posted by dig_duggler at 4:17 PM on December 4, 2005
In the Shadow of No Towers seems like maybe it should be listed, though it comes at the event from a very different angle.
posted by BackwardsCity at 4:35 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by BackwardsCity at 4:35 PM on December 4, 2005
Fictional history as compared to real history continuously diverges greatly in the future, diverges somewhat less in the present, and re-joins in the past. It's the nature of the thing. This is greatly complicated by shared-world fictional constructs, and the DC and Marvel comic-book histories are arguably the shared-world fiction that has the most writers.
In these histories, there are four phases of heroes. The "superheroes" of the distant past are Hercules, Thor, Gilgamesh, and so on. Beings indistinguishable from myth, with any divergence from present incarnations (for obvious example, Thor) explained as errors in the myths. Often present characters who are shown as having lived that long (Vandal Savage) are said to have been those fictional personages, even though occasionally a new one is written in over the top of an old alias. Then there is a great absence of super-beings for thousands of years, until the rise of Great Men of Recorded History, such as Francis Dee, Charlemagne, Prince John, and their fictional peers like King Arthur, Robin Hood, and so on, all of whom are broadly assumed to have existed. Then we have the heroes of modern fiction and history, in which fit Benjamin Franklin and Sherlock Holmes, with in-canon additions such as Jonah Hex, or characters indistinguishable from the Lone Ranger. Around WWII, when costumed superhero fiction started becoming truly popular in the real world, is when in continuity the first actual superheroes and supervillians appear.
This tie-in with WWII and desire to maintain the lives of characters forces comic writers to perform a constant treading of water in the timestream. As characters old enough to have experienced WWII become too old to be active superheroes, they "retire" into a well-preserved old age, or go through rejuvenation by one means or another.
The exception to this are new characters, or old characters re-invented, such as Wesley Dodds, the Sandman of Sandman Mystery Theatre, who are explicitly placed in the past, their story arcs set up to have no bearing on the present. Occasional present-setting stories reference these characters, always with the acknowledgement--often cheesy, like most graphic novel writing--that they are irrevocably dead. Unless some writer wants to use them in a present story.
Death is such a temporary state for comic-book characters that it has become an in-joke. This is due both to writers having more stories to tell with the characters and marketers having more crap to sell with the characters' faces on it.
Which brings us to real-life deaths, and real-life foreign policy "realities", the largest of which is: governments of nations behave like comic-book supervillians. WWII is an acknowledged fact in comic-book history. The characters of the DC universe of the time are powerful enough to have affected the outcome of the war. Two things are done with this: either some clumsy deus ex machina is used (Hitler has the Spear of Destiny! Oh noes, our powers do not work in Europe!), or, whatever the characters did actually effected an outcome that is the same as the real-world outcome. For characters not getting involved in events like the Vietnam War or the Bhopal chemical atrocity, silly justifications are set up. For example, "have scruples about killing" or "respect political authorities too much to interfere in their war" or "didn't know about it" or "don't want to cause international incidents". Whether the Justice League of America operates outside US borders is very fuzzy - both DC and Marvel (outside of Ultimates) have been very, very polite about US foreign policy. Wildstorm, now a DC spin-off, has taken a more "realistic" about superpowered characters and international politics - StormWatch was officially a UN arm, but operated only within the borders of nations whose governments at the time wanted it there. However, there was one classic standoff (I think in Warren Ellis's "StormWatch: Change or Die") in which the US government was being obstructive, for political reasons, about letting StormWatch deal with some disaster within US borders. The leader of StormWatch solved this by finding out if there were a foreign citizen at risk (a tourist, or someone on a working visa) and having that nation's authorities request their intervention to save their citizen. StormWatch's successor, the Authority, was scripted with the premise that, given how national governments behave, and given the relative power of superheroes, a group of superheroes would and should take over the world, at least to the extent of stopping the villainous behaviors. The story elements of the Authority move the frame of reference of problems superheroes deal with so far out from "stopping street crime" that 9/11 becomes trivial, even WWII is fairly low-key. The US government, through the superbeings it sponsors, is the most frequent villain of The Authority - but it is clear in the story that there are far more powerful and threatening things than a single national government on a single world in the multiverse of parallels.
So, dealing with 9/11 in comics runs up hard against the "why didn't you grab the planes, Superman?" problem. The biggest solution is "couple of minutes' notice". It's less of an issue in Marvel continuity, as there are less characters actually able to deal with the physical problems of stopping a plane crash. It would take a team of Marvel characters to do it, even if they had hours' notice. But a couple of minutes is more than enough for Superman. So, he has to be busy elsewhere ... as do the other dozen or so DC characters who are capable of the feat. But there's more. Batman is not only capable of finding Osama bin Laden, he's capable of uncovering collaboration with the planned terrorist act within the US government. In DC continuity, Lex Luthor was president at the time ... which gave DC writers a quandary. See, Luthor as president already invites comparisons with Dick Cheney. To put Luthor behind the attacks in a story accuses Cheney. I, like the majority of the non-US world, consider accusing the Bush Administration of permitting 9/11 to be justified; but most US residents, who are the vast majority of DC's reading customers, have not faced up to that possibility yet. Any serious examination of the Republicans' role in 9/11 in very popular fiction invites real-world problems for the publishing company. (Which also applies to the media - to be first to connect up the dots is a risk, which is why it has been left to the crackpots to take that risk until recently.)
That's the reason why comic-book "9/11 responses" are so much "oh why god why oh no oh god why Superman why" and suchlike crap. Because (a) such a response is realistic for the readers, who had no power to prevent the attacks or dig into the causes etc; (b) having the characters of the story who could have dealt with the attacks do so causes a rift with reality; (c) having the characters of the story dig into the political and historical origins of why terrorists attack the US gets too deep for the level of popular entertainment that comics are pitched at; (d) having the characters dig into the actual mechanisms by which the attacks were set up invites real-world troubles for the publishing companies; (e) comic book readers have gotten over really believing in Superman, the same way they got over Santa.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:42 PM on December 4, 2005 [2 favorites]
In these histories, there are four phases of heroes. The "superheroes" of the distant past are Hercules, Thor, Gilgamesh, and so on. Beings indistinguishable from myth, with any divergence from present incarnations (for obvious example, Thor) explained as errors in the myths. Often present characters who are shown as having lived that long (Vandal Savage) are said to have been those fictional personages, even though occasionally a new one is written in over the top of an old alias. Then there is a great absence of super-beings for thousands of years, until the rise of Great Men of Recorded History, such as Francis Dee, Charlemagne, Prince John, and their fictional peers like King Arthur, Robin Hood, and so on, all of whom are broadly assumed to have existed. Then we have the heroes of modern fiction and history, in which fit Benjamin Franklin and Sherlock Holmes, with in-canon additions such as Jonah Hex, or characters indistinguishable from the Lone Ranger. Around WWII, when costumed superhero fiction started becoming truly popular in the real world, is when in continuity the first actual superheroes and supervillians appear.
This tie-in with WWII and desire to maintain the lives of characters forces comic writers to perform a constant treading of water in the timestream. As characters old enough to have experienced WWII become too old to be active superheroes, they "retire" into a well-preserved old age, or go through rejuvenation by one means or another.
The exception to this are new characters, or old characters re-invented, such as Wesley Dodds, the Sandman of Sandman Mystery Theatre, who are explicitly placed in the past, their story arcs set up to have no bearing on the present. Occasional present-setting stories reference these characters, always with the acknowledgement--often cheesy, like most graphic novel writing--that they are irrevocably dead. Unless some writer wants to use them in a present story.
Death is such a temporary state for comic-book characters that it has become an in-joke. This is due both to writers having more stories to tell with the characters and marketers having more crap to sell with the characters' faces on it.
Which brings us to real-life deaths, and real-life foreign policy "realities", the largest of which is: governments of nations behave like comic-book supervillians. WWII is an acknowledged fact in comic-book history. The characters of the DC universe of the time are powerful enough to have affected the outcome of the war. Two things are done with this: either some clumsy deus ex machina is used (Hitler has the Spear of Destiny! Oh noes, our powers do not work in Europe!), or, whatever the characters did actually effected an outcome that is the same as the real-world outcome. For characters not getting involved in events like the Vietnam War or the Bhopal chemical atrocity, silly justifications are set up. For example, "have scruples about killing" or "respect political authorities too much to interfere in their war" or "didn't know about it" or "don't want to cause international incidents". Whether the Justice League of America operates outside US borders is very fuzzy - both DC and Marvel (outside of Ultimates) have been very, very polite about US foreign policy. Wildstorm, now a DC spin-off, has taken a more "realistic" about superpowered characters and international politics - StormWatch was officially a UN arm, but operated only within the borders of nations whose governments at the time wanted it there. However, there was one classic standoff (I think in Warren Ellis's "StormWatch: Change or Die") in which the US government was being obstructive, for political reasons, about letting StormWatch deal with some disaster within US borders. The leader of StormWatch solved this by finding out if there were a foreign citizen at risk (a tourist, or someone on a working visa) and having that nation's authorities request their intervention to save their citizen. StormWatch's successor, the Authority, was scripted with the premise that, given how national governments behave, and given the relative power of superheroes, a group of superheroes would and should take over the world, at least to the extent of stopping the villainous behaviors. The story elements of the Authority move the frame of reference of problems superheroes deal with so far out from "stopping street crime" that 9/11 becomes trivial, even WWII is fairly low-key. The US government, through the superbeings it sponsors, is the most frequent villain of The Authority - but it is clear in the story that there are far more powerful and threatening things than a single national government on a single world in the multiverse of parallels.
So, dealing with 9/11 in comics runs up hard against the "why didn't you grab the planes, Superman?" problem. The biggest solution is "couple of minutes' notice". It's less of an issue in Marvel continuity, as there are less characters actually able to deal with the physical problems of stopping a plane crash. It would take a team of Marvel characters to do it, even if they had hours' notice. But a couple of minutes is more than enough for Superman. So, he has to be busy elsewhere ... as do the other dozen or so DC characters who are capable of the feat. But there's more. Batman is not only capable of finding Osama bin Laden, he's capable of uncovering collaboration with the planned terrorist act within the US government. In DC continuity, Lex Luthor was president at the time ... which gave DC writers a quandary. See, Luthor as president already invites comparisons with Dick Cheney. To put Luthor behind the attacks in a story accuses Cheney. I, like the majority of the non-US world, consider accusing the Bush Administration of permitting 9/11 to be justified; but most US residents, who are the vast majority of DC's reading customers, have not faced up to that possibility yet. Any serious examination of the Republicans' role in 9/11 in very popular fiction invites real-world problems for the publishing company. (Which also applies to the media - to be first to connect up the dots is a risk, which is why it has been left to the crackpots to take that risk until recently.)
That's the reason why comic-book "9/11 responses" are so much "oh why god why oh no oh god why Superman why" and suchlike crap. Because (a) such a response is realistic for the readers, who had no power to prevent the attacks or dig into the causes etc; (b) having the characters of the story who could have dealt with the attacks do so causes a rift with reality; (c) having the characters of the story dig into the political and historical origins of why terrorists attack the US gets too deep for the level of popular entertainment that comics are pitched at; (d) having the characters dig into the actual mechanisms by which the attacks were set up invites real-world troubles for the publishing companies; (e) comic book readers have gotten over really believing in Superman, the same way they got over Santa.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 5:42 PM on December 4, 2005 [2 favorites]
Wow, thanks aeschenkarnos. I don't really follow comic books, and am curious; what is the threshold of importance that current events have to meet in order to be dealt with in comic book universes? 9/11 clearly passed; are there any other examples from recent history? The first Gulf War, for example? Comic book writers seem to care deeply about the power balance between individuals and institutions; I'm actually surprised at how infrequently they seem to try to provide indirect political commentary.
posted by gsteff at 6:30 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by gsteff at 6:30 PM on December 4, 2005
Dudes, seriously, it's all HYPERTIME.
posted by ab'd al'Hazred at 6:46 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by ab'd al'Hazred at 6:46 PM on December 4, 2005
Man, am I really tired of the phrase "There are no words." Guess what? "There are no words" are words. Totally crappy and cliche words, but words nonetheless.
posted by speicus at 7:10 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by speicus at 7:10 PM on December 4, 2005
what is the threshold of importance that current events have to meet in order to be dealt with in comic book universes? [...] Comic book writers seem to care deeply about the power balance between individuals and institutions; I'm actually surprised at how infrequently they seem to try to provide indirect political commentary.
I think that threshold tends to be character-driven. As I recall Marvel's The Punisher started as a Korean war vet, is now a Vietnam vet, and he'll be a Gulf War veteran soon. The character needs to be an ex-elite soldier, he needs to be in superb physical shape, which means he probably has to be under fifty years old, so the writer looks at events in recent history that might produce an ex-elite soldier, or else has to explain how an older man (such as DC's equivalent, Deathstroke the Terminator) is able to do the acts the character is capable of. Space shuttle disasters might affect Superman, which is where Garth Ennis's Superman story in Hitman #31, one of the best Superman stories ever, came from. Real-life events show up either as themselves, with their own cause and effect, or as something equivalent, with a different cause but same eventual effect. This is a possible response to 9/11 actually - keep it in continuity, but make it a supervillian plot, and have characters deal with the supervillian involved and move on.
The best superhero stories have always been about the superheroes as people - Astro City, Powers and Top Ten are some of the best recent examples of those. Superpowers in those are just "background character stuff", it's the person in the super-suit that matters, not the powers they have.
As for political commentary, some writers love it and push it heavily - Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis are all intensely political writers. Alan Moore is the subtlest of these - he shows his characters acting as motivated by political views, more often than having them deliver a political lecture, as Warren Ellis does a lot. On the other hand, Neil Gaiman doesn't really mention national politics as such in his stories, he reflects historical and current political viewpoints. I think he tends to take a very long view - to him capitalism, communism, individual vs group values, etc are not so much an agenda to be pushed ("Here's what good people ought to do") as food for stories.
I think they try to tap into current trends - writers read the papers and the blogs and watch the news, and they will write in riffs on interesting current events. If they have characters talking to the current leader of Germany, it will often be the actual leader of Germany, and it won't matter much because the majority of the readers don't know anything about the German leader. So, if something is so important that everyone knows about it, it'll show up in a comic eventually. Particularly if a character of the comic has some personal interest in the matter.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:27 PM on December 4, 2005
I think that threshold tends to be character-driven. As I recall Marvel's The Punisher started as a Korean war vet, is now a Vietnam vet, and he'll be a Gulf War veteran soon. The character needs to be an ex-elite soldier, he needs to be in superb physical shape, which means he probably has to be under fifty years old, so the writer looks at events in recent history that might produce an ex-elite soldier, or else has to explain how an older man (such as DC's equivalent, Deathstroke the Terminator) is able to do the acts the character is capable of. Space shuttle disasters might affect Superman, which is where Garth Ennis's Superman story in Hitman #31, one of the best Superman stories ever, came from. Real-life events show up either as themselves, with their own cause and effect, or as something equivalent, with a different cause but same eventual effect. This is a possible response to 9/11 actually - keep it in continuity, but make it a supervillian plot, and have characters deal with the supervillian involved and move on.
The best superhero stories have always been about the superheroes as people - Astro City, Powers and Top Ten are some of the best recent examples of those. Superpowers in those are just "background character stuff", it's the person in the super-suit that matters, not the powers they have.
As for political commentary, some writers love it and push it heavily - Grant Morrison, Alan Moore, Garth Ennis and Warren Ellis are all intensely political writers. Alan Moore is the subtlest of these - he shows his characters acting as motivated by political views, more often than having them deliver a political lecture, as Warren Ellis does a lot. On the other hand, Neil Gaiman doesn't really mention national politics as such in his stories, he reflects historical and current political viewpoints. I think he tends to take a very long view - to him capitalism, communism, individual vs group values, etc are not so much an agenda to be pushed ("Here's what good people ought to do") as food for stories.
I think they try to tap into current trends - writers read the papers and the blogs and watch the news, and they will write in riffs on interesting current events. If they have characters talking to the current leader of Germany, it will often be the actual leader of Germany, and it won't matter much because the majority of the readers don't know anything about the German leader. So, if something is so important that everyone knows about it, it'll show up in a comic eventually. Particularly if a character of the comic has some personal interest in the matter.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 7:27 PM on December 4, 2005
(c) having the characters of the story dig into the political and historical origins of why terrorists attack the US gets too deep for the level of popular entertainment that comics are pitched at;
Perhaps, but on the other hand: big, big ups to Marvel for the page that drew a 1:1 equivalence between mouthy neocrusader western demogogues and their counterparts among the mullahs. That redeemed the comic for me, and then some.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:29 PM on December 4, 2005
Perhaps, but on the other hand: big, big ups to Marvel for the page that drew a 1:1 equivalence between mouthy neocrusader western demogogues and their counterparts among the mullahs. That redeemed the comic for me, and then some.
posted by George_Spiggott at 7:29 PM on December 4, 2005
seeing this makes me wonder - will we ever see Hurricane Katrina in the pages of comic books? where are Gambit and Rogue when we need them?? and why aren't our cops and fire departments being lionized, when the vast majority of them performed heroically for weeks after the storm, rescuing thousands while FEMA and the federal government were standing idly by? are the social and racial issues involved too divisive for sequential art to deal with?
do new orleans and the gulf coast not merit the superhero treatment?
probably not, i guess.
posted by ab3 at 11:00 PM on December 4, 2005
do new orleans and the gulf coast not merit the superhero treatment?
probably not, i guess.
posted by ab3 at 11:00 PM on December 4, 2005
Ironically, in Aquaman, he dealt with a truly weird plot where part of San Diego (not New Orleans) was submerged underwater. Many died, but some managed to develop...gills or something? and lived underwater. They called it Sub Diego. I am so not kidding.
posted by GaelFC at 11:08 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by GaelFC at 11:08 PM on December 4, 2005
On the flip side of this, one of the themes of the comic Ex Machina is that the main character, Mitchell Hundred, aka "The Great Machine". was elected to the office of mayor of New York City based at least partially on the fame he gained by actually saving one of the twin towers on 9/11.
posted by solid-one-love at 11:16 PM on December 4, 2005
posted by solid-one-love at 11:16 PM on December 4, 2005
> do new orleans and the gulf coast not merit the superhero treatment?
Ironically, I'm not sure that comic book creators were ready to acknowledge or explore that particular betrayal – the button would be a little too hot, and imply that, yes, evil men like Lex Luthor and Wilson Fisk were driving domestic policy here in the US (Wilson Cheney? Wilson Rove?).
It may be true, but we don't need to acknowledge it for the evil that it represents, like the non-Christian Christians (anti-Christians?) that despise charity, invade non-aggressive countries and kill women and children indiscriminately.
posted by vhsiv at 11:47 PM on December 4, 2005
Ironically, I'm not sure that comic book creators were ready to acknowledge or explore that particular betrayal – the button would be a little too hot, and imply that, yes, evil men like Lex Luthor and Wilson Fisk were driving domestic policy here in the US (Wilson Cheney? Wilson Rove?).
It may be true, but we don't need to acknowledge it for the evil that it represents, like the non-Christian Christians (anti-Christians?) that despise charity, invade non-aggressive countries and kill women and children indiscriminately.
posted by vhsiv at 11:47 PM on December 4, 2005
Silly 9/11 people. My teeth laugh at you.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 12:12 AM on December 5, 2005
posted by malusmoriendumest at 12:12 AM on December 5, 2005
For those saying it was unrealistic for villains to feel sympathy or for heroes to react to atrocities of a type that they (theoretically) see all the time, an appropriate analogy might be found in professional wrestling (no, seriously!)
For the majority of the time, these people play costumed heroes and villains in ongoing storylines. But when something significant happens outside their scripted world, they often break character to address this.
An example would be the recent death of Eddie Guerrero. Instead of the regular show that week, all the wrestlers gathered together as the show opened for a "ten bell" salute then they put on a show with focus on straight forward wrestling matches rather than their current storylines. Wrestlers were shown "breaking character" for interviews about Guerrero and their relationship with him backstage. Something that would never happen in their scripted world occurred when Guerrero's friend, Rey Mysterio, who is a mid-level wrestler in the hierarchy at best cleanly pinned one of the WWE's biggest stars, Shawn Michaels, as a tribute to his deceased friend.
posted by Jaybo at 12:15 AM on December 5, 2005
For the majority of the time, these people play costumed heroes and villains in ongoing storylines. But when something significant happens outside their scripted world, they often break character to address this.
An example would be the recent death of Eddie Guerrero. Instead of the regular show that week, all the wrestlers gathered together as the show opened for a "ten bell" salute then they put on a show with focus on straight forward wrestling matches rather than their current storylines. Wrestlers were shown "breaking character" for interviews about Guerrero and their relationship with him backstage. Something that would never happen in their scripted world occurred when Guerrero's friend, Rey Mysterio, who is a mid-level wrestler in the hierarchy at best cleanly pinned one of the WWE's biggest stars, Shawn Michaels, as a tribute to his deceased friend.
posted by Jaybo at 12:15 AM on December 5, 2005
solid-one-love : " On the flip side of this, one of the themes of the comic Ex Machina is that the main character, Mitchell Hundred, aka 'The Great Machine'. was elected to the office of mayor of New York City based at least partially on the fame he gained by actually saving one of the twin towers on 9/11."
That's the one thing that really bugs me about Ex Machina. Ohh, it's so hard-hitting because he saved a tower. Fuck that.
posted by graventy at 3:34 AM on December 5, 2005
That's the one thing that really bugs me about Ex Machina. Ohh, it's so hard-hitting because he saved a tower. Fuck that.
posted by graventy at 3:34 AM on December 5, 2005
aeschenkarnos, all of that is really well-said.
I'd add that I also find the Spider-Man comic cringe-worthy, and I even sort of knew I would way back when I heard it was comic out. Part of that is because it's addressing a cringe-worthy topic; the bigger reason, though, is that superhero comics do their best job of adressing real-world problems when they can do it metaphorically. This came out when the book's creators were rubbed way too raw to work it into metaphor-- they had to talk about it, and in a way that really didn't play to the genre's strengths.
In September of 2002, a lot of Marvel books addresses 9/11 more metaphorically, with much, much more polished results.
posted by COBRA! at 7:15 AM on December 5, 2005
I'd add that I also find the Spider-Man comic cringe-worthy, and I even sort of knew I would way back when I heard it was comic out. Part of that is because it's addressing a cringe-worthy topic; the bigger reason, though, is that superhero comics do their best job of adressing real-world problems when they can do it metaphorically. This came out when the book's creators were rubbed way too raw to work it into metaphor-- they had to talk about it, and in a way that really didn't play to the genre's strengths.
In September of 2002, a lot of Marvel books addresses 9/11 more metaphorically, with much, much more polished results.
posted by COBRA! at 7:15 AM on December 5, 2005
Maybe I'm in one of those moods, but the Spiderman comic didn't do it for me...the Heroes pictorial, on the other hand, ...I need to stop reading serious posts on Metafilter in the morning. I don't need to describe to other people passing by my desk why I'm crying.
Maybe it hit me harder because I lost friends, and friends of mine lost family members. When I rode the train back from the city a couple of weeks after 9/11, and 5 members of the local firehouse were on the train with me, I stopped before I got off and shook their hands. They seemed tired, haunted, and alive. I knew these guys: We'd take my sons down to see them on some Saturdays in the summer, so the kids could see the big engines and help wash the trucks.
The site of a fireman in full uniform, or a truck rolling down the street is just about the only thing that makes me really proud to be an American any more. Fuck yea.
posted by thanotopsis at 7:23 AM on December 5, 2005
Maybe it hit me harder because I lost friends, and friends of mine lost family members. When I rode the train back from the city a couple of weeks after 9/11, and 5 members of the local firehouse were on the train with me, I stopped before I got off and shook their hands. They seemed tired, haunted, and alive. I knew these guys: We'd take my sons down to see them on some Saturdays in the summer, so the kids could see the big engines and help wash the trucks.
The site of a fireman in full uniform, or a truck rolling down the street is just about the only thing that makes me really proud to be an American any more. Fuck yea.
posted by thanotopsis at 7:23 AM on December 5, 2005
As I recall Marvel's The Punisher started as a Korean war vet, is now a Vietnam vet, and he'll be a Gulf War veteran soon. The character needs to be an ex-elite soldier, he needs to be in superb physical shape, which means he probably has to be under fifty years old, so the writer looks at events in recent history that might produce an ex-elite soldier, or else has to explain how an older man (such as DC's equivalent, Deathstroke the Terminator) is able to do the acts the character is capable of.
In Garth Ennis' recent run of The Punisher it's pretty clear that Frank Castle is in his late 50s. Incidentally - The Punisher was always a Vietnam veteran - he was clearly based on the character Mack "The Executioner" Bolan from the pulp-fiction novels written by Don Pendleton in late '69 onwards. It's not so hard to imagine a tough soldier in his 50s and early 60s - the TV show "Combat Missions" featured an ex-Ranger in his 60s who kept up very well with the younger guys.
Volume 4, Issue 37 had the Punisher's take on 9/11 - predictably he uses it as justification for his continued war and he can be seen to reflect on how many people will understand why he does what he does now that they have themselves faced tragedy. Sadly it seems like a large proportion of real American society agrees with Frank's psychosis on the basis of a single violent event, even though they live daily without the changes wrought on him by serving in a warzone.
posted by longbaugh at 8:02 AM on December 5, 2005
In Garth Ennis' recent run of The Punisher it's pretty clear that Frank Castle is in his late 50s. Incidentally - The Punisher was always a Vietnam veteran - he was clearly based on the character Mack "The Executioner" Bolan from the pulp-fiction novels written by Don Pendleton in late '69 onwards. It's not so hard to imagine a tough soldier in his 50s and early 60s - the TV show "Combat Missions" featured an ex-Ranger in his 60s who kept up very well with the younger guys.
Volume 4, Issue 37 had the Punisher's take on 9/11 - predictably he uses it as justification for his continued war and he can be seen to reflect on how many people will understand why he does what he does now that they have themselves faced tragedy. Sadly it seems like a large proportion of real American society agrees with Frank's psychosis on the basis of a single violent event, even though they live daily without the changes wrought on him by serving in a warzone.
posted by longbaugh at 8:02 AM on December 5, 2005
I’m with meehawl - Doc Doom doesn’t cry for anything. Maybe his mother in Hell, other than that...
And if Doom did care, there would be some serious payback.
But Marvel, and DC, tend not to have senses of proportion.
thanotopsis I think it was Vonnegut who said there is no more poigniant statement of man’s humanity to man than a fire truck going out. (Paraphrasing obviously)
Although it’s not a singularly American phenomenon, I get where you’re coming from.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:11 AM on December 5, 2005
And if Doom did care, there would be some serious payback.
But Marvel, and DC, tend not to have senses of proportion.
thanotopsis I think it was Vonnegut who said there is no more poigniant statement of man’s humanity to man than a fire truck going out. (Paraphrasing obviously)
Although it’s not a singularly American phenomenon, I get where you’re coming from.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:11 AM on December 5, 2005
Doc Doom doesn’t cry for anything
Well I was thinking about this some more, and maybe a thought bubble along the lines of "Now why didn't *I* think of that?" might clear it up. Maybe Doom was just sad because people would think he had lost his murder mojo and was not small potatoes. After all, Doom's ego has always been the single most important thing to him. But maybe I am just too willing to give JMS a break.
posted by meehawl at 10:50 AM on December 5, 2005
Well I was thinking about this some more, and maybe a thought bubble along the lines of "Now why didn't *I* think of that?" might clear it up. Maybe Doom was just sad because people would think he had lost his murder mojo and was not small potatoes. After all, Doom's ego has always been the single most important thing to him. But maybe I am just too willing to give JMS a break.
posted by meehawl at 10:50 AM on December 5, 2005
My friends and I also thought Dr. Doom crying was a bit much. Then, because we are dorks, we wondered why, if he was upset, he didn't go back in time using his Time Platform and stop the planes himself. aeschenkarnos seems to have addressed why.
posted by chunking express at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2005
posted by chunking express at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2005
So did Captain America go to Iraq?
We may as well examine how professional wrestling reacted to 9/11.
posted by joseppi7 at 11:21 AM on December 5, 2005
We may as well examine how professional wrestling reacted to 9/11.
posted by joseppi7 at 11:21 AM on December 5, 2005
This page sums up all that was wrong with post 9/11 comic book "specials". 9/11 was spleenventingest event of all time in the USA.
Oh, and malusmoriendumest: "Silly 9/11 people. My teeth laugh at you."
"My teeth laugh at you" is probably my favorite sentence from a comic book ever. ever. ever.
I can't explain it but it is.
posted by illovich at 11:28 AM on December 5, 2005
Oh, and malusmoriendumest: "Silly 9/11 people. My teeth laugh at you."
"My teeth laugh at you" is probably my favorite sentence from a comic book ever. ever. ever.
I can't explain it but it is.
posted by illovich at 11:28 AM on December 5, 2005
You haven't seen 9/11 comics until you've enjoyed 'World Rape History', I think it's called, the Japanese fuckjuice-typhoon comic. Saw it on the SA Forums. No way I'm going to link it here.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:36 PM on December 5, 2005
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 3:36 PM on December 5, 2005
re the spiderman comic:
that there's some mighty fine propaganda. almost had me for a second.
i own both "arists respond" volumes. there are a few genuinely moving pieces. most of it is jingoistic drivel, but really well done jingoistic drivel. fascinating as a study in the rise of pop-fascism.
though, that said, volume one is almost worth it just on the basis of frank miller's two-page, three panel piece.
also, a page like that is totally remiss without World War 3 Illustrated's 9/11 issue. If only WWIII were reliably available outside NYC...
oh... and what kenlayne said.
posted by poweredbybeard at 4:46 PM on December 5, 2005
that there's some mighty fine propaganda. almost had me for a second.
i own both "arists respond" volumes. there are a few genuinely moving pieces. most of it is jingoistic drivel, but really well done jingoistic drivel. fascinating as a study in the rise of pop-fascism.
though, that said, volume one is almost worth it just on the basis of frank miller's two-page, three panel piece.
also, a page like that is totally remiss without World War 3 Illustrated's 9/11 issue. If only WWIII were reliably available outside NYC...
oh... and what kenlayne said.
posted by poweredbybeard at 4:46 PM on December 5, 2005
So did Captain America go to Iraq?
He had to, once the US government knew for sure that Saddam Hussain was manufacturing huge quantities of Green Kryptonite, which he was then supplying to Osama Bin Laden.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:01 PM on December 5, 2005
He had to, once the US government knew for sure that Saddam Hussain was manufacturing huge quantities of Green Kryptonite, which he was then supplying to Osama Bin Laden.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:01 PM on December 5, 2005
Wow.
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:10 PM on December 5, 2005
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:10 PM on December 5, 2005
The current Ultimates run is dealing with the equivalence of superheroes as people of mass destruction - sending capn america to iraq and all that. Comics have really got a lot more interesting since the dark knight returns - art medium like any other.
The Spiderman comic may have been a bit ott to us now, but it was indeed an emotional time and the nature of the genre is that emotions are on occasion overplayed. Much worse incidents have happened in the context of the comic book universes (Coast City etc), but there's always more impact when you break down a wall or two.
posted by Mossy at 3:10 AM on December 6, 2005
The Spiderman comic may have been a bit ott to us now, but it was indeed an emotional time and the nature of the genre is that emotions are on occasion overplayed. Much worse incidents have happened in the context of the comic book universes (Coast City etc), but there's always more impact when you break down a wall or two.
posted by Mossy at 3:10 AM on December 6, 2005
I was completely uninterested in this as a topic, but came here from the sidebar to find a fascinating thread. Nice work.
posted by OmieWise at 6:34 AM on December 6, 2005
posted by OmieWise at 6:34 AM on December 6, 2005
I stopped reading when Doctor Doom started crying. There are no words.
posted by stinkycheese at 8:59 AM on December 6, 2005
posted by stinkycheese at 8:59 AM on December 6, 2005
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