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February 1, 2006 4:36 PM   Subscribe

Interpreting Revelation's "Millenium." Outside of the all-too-virulent rapture-crazy pre-tribulational dispensationalist premillenialism permeating JesusLand, some Christians hold to other, more nuanced eschatological alternatives. You've got historic post-tribulational premillenialism, which places the transformation of the faithful at the final judgment rather than before it; amillenialism, which regards Christ's "millenial" reign as a symbolic spiritual reign culminating in the last judgment; and postmillenialism, which sees the millenium as a gradual progression towards goodness and light. Overlapping those, you have the "it's all been fulfilled" preterists, and their prophecy-party-pooping compatriots, the hyper-preterists. It's a debate just slightly more fun than the end of the universe. Meanwhile, the noncanonical apocalypses sit in a corner, sadly ignored, and sunny Megiddo is still waiting for some end times action.
posted by brownpau (76 comments total)

 
OR... people could simply stop waiting for the world to come to a horrible fiery end predicated on belief in a convoluted patchwork of ridiculous superstition and documentation of dubious historicity, and you know...


live their fucking lives?
posted by stenseng at 4:40 PM on February 1, 2006


Well, I for one appreciate the links. I start class back in less than a week and eschatology is part of the theology class I have to take.

For those of you who are not believers, does it hurt you to be a little more informed about those of us that are? We are by no means a monolithic entity.
posted by konolia at 4:51 PM on February 1, 2006


Love the page title, but the setup was a bit lengthy, no? Cheers.
posted by boaz at 4:54 PM on February 1, 2006


Millennium has two Ns. It begs the question, were your typos deliberate?
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 4:55 PM on February 1, 2006


Oh crap.
posted by brownpau at 4:55 PM on February 1, 2006


Don't worry. When Jesus returns, he'll gather all the lost N's too.
posted by boaz at 4:57 PM on February 1, 2006


For those of you who are not believers, does it hurt you to be a little more informed about those of us that are?

Like it's soooo hard to be informed about Christianity in this country. Why is the onus on us? How about: for those of you who are believers, does it hurt you to be a little more informed about [evolution/physics/other religions/politics/society/history] than those of us that aren't?
posted by billysumday at 4:58 PM on February 1, 2006


Interesting. Wish I had time to give these more than a cursory glance right now. Thanks.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:59 PM on February 1, 2006


I'm all religioned out. Good bye.
posted by furtive at 5:02 PM on February 1, 2006


For those of you curious as to brownpau's own beliefs, he once told me he believed in the literal truth of the Bible, except ("obviously") for the opening parts of Genesis. Since then he has become less literal, as I understand it, but remains a Baptist of some description. He once confided that, yes, it does sometimes depress him that all his unsaved friends will suffer eternal torment. Whether this song-cycle of posts is an attempt to save others, I cannot say.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 5:04 PM on February 1, 2006


for those of you who are believers, does it hurt you to be a little more informed about REALITY
posted by cassbrown1 at 5:06 PM on February 1, 2006


He once confided that, yes, it does sometimes depress him that all his unsaved friends will suffer eternal torment.

Maybe these posts are preparatory torment.
posted by boaz at 5:06 PM on February 1, 2006


Meh. If the literalists are right, all the cool kids will be in hell anyway.
posted by stenseng at 5:09 PM on February 1, 2006


It's a debate just slightly more fun than the end of the universe.

What fucking debate?
posted by billysumday at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2006


Sorry - I meant to say, what is the debate over the end of the universe?
posted by billysumday at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2006


Big Crunch, Big Stretch, Big Freeze, Steady State, that kind of thing.
posted by brownpau at 5:18 PM on February 1, 2006


These days it's a race of Heat Death vs. Cold Death vs. Crunchy Death.
posted by boaz at 5:18 PM on February 1, 2006


Revelations presumably falls under the "Big Stretch" category.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 5:22 PM on February 1, 2006


I couldn't care less what brownpau believes, it has no impact on his ability to, in this case at least, make a decent post:- these are links to some fascinating nonsense. The preterists are new to me, as are the apocryphal apocalypse prophesies, both are fascinating. (NB, this argument only makes sense if you think links are the business of MetaFilter, as opposed to the ensuing shouting.)
posted by jack_mo at 5:26 PM on February 1, 2006


I prefer the scientific notion that eventually the universe will start contracting, and, at that point, time itself might reverse. Perhaps we will live our lives backward at some point.

I, for one, have a number of mistakes I am looking forward to reversing.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:26 PM on February 1, 2006


If Astro Zombie is correct, kids are going to have to start playing their Led Zepplin albums forward.
posted by cortex at 5:28 PM on February 1, 2006


cortex, Stephen Hawking said something about that:

The thermodynamic and psychological arrows of time would not reverse when the universe begins to recontract, or inside black holes.
posted by oflinkey at 5:34 PM on February 1, 2006


And God has already punished him for such heracy.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 5:35 PM on February 1, 2006


Dear Christians: Jesus called. He wants his legacy back.

More seriously, I do appreciate the link to noncanonical Apocalyptic literature--it proves that any asshat can write a book about the end times (to wit: Left Behind) and be taken seriously, at some point, by some Christians. Revelations (actually, even that's a misnomer) is itself a mess, textually, thematically, and theologically, and there's a reason many Christians over the years didn't want it in the Canon. To try and interpret it seriously is a fun parlor game. Unfortunately, some in power think it's the basis for sound policy.
posted by bardic at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2006


metafilter: all-too-virulent
posted by scheptech at 5:43 PM on February 1, 2006


I'm ready to throw down at Meggido. I'll stand on the hill with a pair of brass knuckles shouting "Who want's a peice of me!?"
posted by Smedleyman at 5:47 PM on February 1, 2006


Thanks, brownpau. Some interesting reading to look forward to.

I used to fall asleep listening to Garner Ted Armstrong on the radio when I was 11-13ish, and the eschatalogical stuff has always kinda stuck with me.

Looking at the events of the past 50 years or so, I sometimes wonder if the prophesies could come true not for any supernatural reasons, but because so many people believe in them that they become a sort of "script" for the collective unconscious.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:52 PM on February 1, 2006


because so many people believe in them that they become a sort of "script" for the collective unconscious.

I certainly believe in the power of the placebo effect, but I doubt it can lift people out of the clothes or have them eaten by giant whores of babylon.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 6:03 PM on February 1, 2006


eaten by giant whores of babylon

Now there's an eschatology I can get behind!

Seriously, if brownpau is witnessing, s/he's not doing a very good job of it by producing sterling examples of the xtian batshitinsane in this [good] post and drivelly non-arguments in others like that ex-atheist one I can't be bothered linking to in case someone wastes their time going it.
posted by Sparx at 6:27 PM on February 1, 2006


konolia: does it hurt you to be a little more informed about those of us that are?


How condescending of you milady! Of course, a non-believer must be ignorant of such things. Atheists and agnostics know nothing of eschatology (shorter, readable wikipedia link), right? Perhaps your attitude suggests that if if they knew more, they'd believe eh? In my experience the opposite is true. We can even use twenty-five cent words and some of us can even spell millennium correctly!

sten: OR... people could simply stop waiting for the world to come to a horrible fiery end

Are you kidding me? Can you imagine the huge worldwide ego-bruising billions would have to endure? To admit to oneself that they are not living in spiritually special times and the world will work happily without them would conflict with the importance of being the chosen people, pious, etc. Being extremely religious, it seems, is not compatible with being an ordinary person who lives in ordinary times in an ordinary solar system in an ordinary universe.

To these people great and dramatic things that will validate their philosophies will happen any minute now. They have a long wait. Some scholars suggest that even the apostles thought Jesus was coming back to life during their lifetimes. Same crock, different millennium.
posted by skallas at 6:48 PM on February 1, 2006


"...prophesies could come true not for any supernatural reasons..." Exactly, but I don't think it's that we collectively believe the script, it's that we just haven't that many to choose from. Humanity really has only a handful of stories that are played out over and over.
posted by klarck at 6:49 PM on February 1, 2006


More on the long wait, from my wikipedia link
Christians in the 1st century AD believed the end of the world would come during their lifetime. Jesus in Mark 13:8 compared the end of the world with a mother's birth pain, and the image implied the world was already pregnant with its own destruction, but no one but God knows when it will happen. When the converts of Paul in Thessalonica were persecuted by the Roman Empire, they believed the end was upon them. However, doubt rose when as early as the 90s Christians said, "We have heard these things [of the end of the world] even in the days of our fathers, and look, we have grown old and none of them has happened to us". In the 130s Justin Martyr declared God was delaying the end of the world because he wished for Christianity to become a world religion. In the 250s Cyprian wrote that Christian sins of that time were a prelude and proof that the end was near.

However, by the 3rd century most Christians believed the End was beyond their own lifetime; Jesus, it was believed, had denounced attempts to divine the future, to know the "times and seasons", and such attempts to predict the future were discouraged; yet the End was given a date with the help of Jewish traditions in the Six Ages of the World. Using this system, the End was fixed at 202, but when the date passed, the date was changed to AD 500. After AD 500 the importance of the End as a part of Christianity was marginalized, though it continues to be stressed during the season of Advent.
posted by skallas at 6:51 PM on February 1, 2006


Ah, man, the 90s. Truly generation x.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 6:56 PM on February 1, 2006


zenmasterthis: but because so many people believe in them that they become a sort of "script" for the collective unconscious.

Agreed. Self-fullfilling prophecies are very real. What really scares me is we have a born-again evangelical with his finger on the big nuclear button here in the States. In Pakistan we have a sham democracy with nuclear weapons under incredible influence from Islamacists. In India we have over a billion people who believe in reincarnation who have nuclear weapons and are constantly playing "fight me, I dare you" with Pakistan over a crappy piece of land. Iran is doing its damndest to get the bomb too. Israel has a huge nuclear aresenal with fun names like the Samson Option.

No, I don't think this is the end of the world, but it may lead to serious regional destabilization and I wouldn't be surprised if there was a limited nuclear war in the mideast eventually. Please, prove me wrong.
posted by skallas at 7:08 PM on February 1, 2006


The Apocalypse is god's way of telling us pesky kids to get off his damn lawn.
posted by qvantamon at 7:13 PM on February 1, 2006


Skallas, too bad you aren't more like a college professor I had back in the 70's. He started out the semester an agnostic, announced before the end he was now an atheist, and still had no problem assigning us a take-home final in which we were to logically prove the existance of God (yes, this was a philosophy class.) Perhaps more to the point, the bible college I attended a few years later actually had a course in comparative religions in which the students had to learn the basics of Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. Before I went on a shortterm trip to Thailand a few years ago I also had a class-held at my church-which explained to us the differences between the two main schools of Buddhism.

They're just links. They can't leap out of the computer, grab you around the throat and choke you.

If they make you uncomfortable, ask yourself why. If not, why do you care?
posted by konolia at 7:41 PM on February 1, 2006


Being extremely religious, it seems, is not compatible with being an ordinary person who lives in ordinary times in an ordinary solar system in an ordinary universe.

How is non-religious compatible with being ordinary? Who wants to be ordinary, theist or no?
posted by tweak at 7:50 PM on February 1, 2006


As someone who's obsessed with the apocalypse*, religious in nature or not, thanks for this post. My cup runneth over.

*For a while there, my profile listed by occupation to be, among other things, "secular eschatologist." Then I realized what a pretentious ass I was being.
posted by brundlefly at 7:56 PM on February 1, 2006


konolia, I just found Jesus. Thanx!
posted by bardic at 8:06 PM on February 1, 2006


He started out the semester an agnostic, announced before the end he was now an atheist, and still had no problem assigning us a take-home final in which we were to logically prove the existance of God

For your final, he asked you to do something he judged to be impossible? Hmm. Did you manage it?
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 8:22 PM on February 1, 2006


"No, I don't think this is the end of the world, but it may lead to serious regional destabilization" -

Reminds me of "The Jesus Landing Pad", by Rick Perlstein of The Village Voice :

""Everything that you're discussing is information you're not supposed to have," barked Pentecostal minister Robert G. Upton when asked about the off-the-record briefing his delegation received on March 25. Details of that meeting appear in a confidential memo signed by Upton and obtained by the Voice.

The e-mailed meeting summary reveals NSC Near East and North African Affairs director Elliott Abrams sitting down with the Apostolic Congress and massaging their theological concerns. Claiming to be "the Christian Voice in the Nation's Capital," the members vociferously oppose the idea of a Palestinian state. They fear an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza might enable just that, and they object on the grounds that all of Old Testament Israel belongs to the Jews. Until Israel is intact and Solomon's temple rebuilt, they believe, Christ won't come back to earth. "
___________

As far as the post goes.....

I'd suggest adding "Dominionism" , "Christian Reconstructionism" , and "Presuppositionalism" to the lexicon.
posted by troutfishing at 8:30 PM on February 1, 2006


OR... people could simply stop waiting for the world to come to a horrible fiery end predicated on belief in a convoluted patchwork of ridiculous superstition and documentation of dubious historicity, and you know...


live their fucking lives?
posted by stenseng at 7:40 PM EST on February 1 [!]


ROFL, btw.
posted by tweak at 8:36 PM on February 1, 2006


Where's the "batshitinsane" tag for this post?
posted by five fresh fish at 8:54 PM on February 1, 2006


The point of the post is to direct attention to Christian alternatives to the "batshitinsane" category of dispensational premillenialism, but everyone else seems to like focusing on that anyway.
posted by brownpau at 9:10 PM on February 1, 2006


Since Protocols brought up Generation X, here's an quote (as I remember it) from Douglas Coupland's book:

"When people start getting all misty eyed about the Last Days and hoarding cases of Rice A Roni, it's about as clear an admission you're ever going to get that their life isn't working out as they had planned it."
posted by salvia at 9:37 PM on February 1, 2006


brownpau, we focus on it because to take the inherent batshitinsanity of Revelation and attempt to use it to guide oneself or to predict the future in any way, no matter how banal, is itself batshitinsane. We focus on the basis for your beliefs, as opposed to the complexly layered interpretations you place upon it, because that requisite basis is, to us, an obvious lie. There is no escaping this. Taking the religious side of an argument is always going to be more exciting and fun than the atheist side, which fundamentally consists of just repeatedly pointing out the nonsense and absurdity of the core of the subject and hence the subject as a whole, again and again, in the dire hope that someday mankind will awake from 'neath this mountain of winged mammalian guano and start sorting out its priorities.
posted by Protocols of the Elders of Awesome at 9:46 PM on February 1, 2006


When the Jews return to Zion
And a comet rips the sky
And the Holy Roman Empire rises,
Then You and I must die.
From the eternal sea he rises,
Creating armies on either shore,
Turning man against his brother
'Til man exists no more.

Sanguis bebimus! Corpus edimus!
Sanguis bebimus! Corpus edimus!

Aaaarrrrgggghhhh!!!!!
posted by Crabby Appleton at 9:47 PM on February 1, 2006


fff, you're not getting it. This is a divinely inspired thread. I ran the contents of brownpau's post and the comment through the bible code generator using the starting parameters 6,0. Lots of gibberish is generated but the following came right at the end:


Clearly, the first line is telling me "u gis "tern."" In other words Google Image Search "tern." A tern is a bird which looks more than a little like a dove. A dove being the christian symbol for the holy spirit. The sixth result (again the number 6 appears) is this tern which looks a lot like the traditional drawing of the holy spirit dove.

Now skip down to the line that just reads "eesstr." Outloud that sounds a lot like Easter. Creeped out yet? The next line is "dies1P b," which clearly means on Easter died 1 person. The trailing b suggests the word "but" thus suggesting the resurrection.

Also note that millennium spelled with one N anagrams to "Immune Ill." At the millennium there will be an immunity to the illness of sin. The resurrection! The heathen spelling with two N's spells "Immune Nill," that is to say no immunity, no savior.

In other words this FPP isn't about Jebus, it is Jebus. He's in the internets. This is a gnostic FPP. There is information in the information! This is the real deal folks! Brownpau is just trying to save our heathen souls!

Btw, my newest book "The Internet Code" will be available March 1st at better booksellers everywhere.
posted by skallas at 10:01 PM on February 1, 2006


Don't forget 88 reasons why the rapture is in 1988: The Feast of Trump (Rosh Hash Ana) September, 11-12-13
posted by tweak at 10:22 PM on February 1, 2006


There's even information in the metainformation. Take a good look at my last post, it got posted EXACTLY one minute after midnight, thus pointing to the date Feb 2nd. Feb 2nd in history chock full of religious events:

962 - Translatio imperii: Pope John XII crowns Otto I, Holy Roman Emperor, the first Holy Roman Emperor in nearly 40 years.
1032 - Conrad II, Holy Roman Emperor becomes King of Burgundy.
1119 - Callixtus II becomes Pope.
1882 - The Knights of Columbus are formed in New Haven, Connecticut.

Births:

1769 - Pope Clement XIII (b. 1693)

Also, a well-known hollywood heathen who played devlish characters died that day:

1969 - Boris Karloff, English actor (b. 1887)

Not scared yet? Feb 2nd is Candlemas. What's Candlemas? From wikipedia:

"Candlemas is the last festival in the Christian year that is dated by reference to Christmas; subsequent holidays are calculated with reference to Easter, so Candlemas marks the end of the Christmas and Epiphany season."

The end of the calendar, for us all!

Again, "The Internet Code" will be available on March 1st. Definately Waldenbooks. Published by Kinkos.
posted by skallas at 10:24 PM on February 1, 2006


Spelling it with one n is fine. It just changes the meaning a little.
posted by flabdablet at 10:29 PM on February 1, 2006


this is awesome. its like having 20 different theories on how tall the easter bunny is.
posted by braksandwich at 11:11 PM on February 1, 2006


The point of the post is to direct attention to Christian alternatives to the "batshitinsane" category of dispensational premillenialism, but everyone else seems to like focusing on that anyway.

That's a nice thought, brownpau.

Unfortunately, comparing millennialist frameworks is about as sensible as comparing the philosophical frameworks of Alien parts I through III. You can do it... but it doesn't make much sense.

IMO, best to stick with studying what the Jesus dude himself directly did and said. Everything else is interpretation, political spin, and 'shrooms.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:56 PM on February 1, 2006


I do wish Alison Lurie's book, 'Imaginary Friends' was more widely read.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:12 AM on February 2, 2006


Five Fresh Fish:
IMO, best to stick with studying what the Jesus dude himself directly did and said. Everything else is interpretation, political spin, and 'shrooms.

Safe, sane, and good. The whole prophecy game too easily becomes an obsession, distracting people from the real deal (look at the mess in the US!)
posted by Goofyy at 3:35 AM on February 2, 2006


braksandwich wins.
posted by quite unimportant at 4:11 AM on February 2, 2006


I think studying the Jesus Dude directly may actually have more risk of disappointment and anger associated with it. After all, if they go about that task honestly, they'll have to start trying to figure out whether the Jesus Dude actually existed and, if so, what really happened to him.

As it stands, we really have only a set of canonized legends to describe his words and actions and the course of his life. (And some un-canonized legends, if we also look at the various apocrypha. And those pretty much contradict the canon.) We can verify the existence of his "cult" from other primary sources, but not the existence of the man.

I doubt most "students of the Jesus Dude" would have the mental flexibility to get behind studying him as a metaphorical Jesus Dude.
posted by lodurr at 6:40 AM on February 2, 2006


Forgot one:
Left Behind

The 800 lb. gorilla of Revelation end times crap.
posted by nofundy at 7:36 AM on February 2, 2006


the more you know the less you like, really bp's posts just make me feel more and more that a deep mass hysteria is upon the earth and that we are going to destroy ourselves for all the mundane reasons (global warming, war, etc), and that no one is going to do anything about it because they are all waiting for the all red cow, or Israel to reform or some such bullshit. sigh.
posted by stilgar at 7:39 AM on February 2, 2006


What stilgar and others above have snarkily but intelligently said. The more I read about this stuff (having spend much time reading the stuff itself in many religious traditions) the more I feel that Christians have no right to claim a "sanity" about their own death cult that doesn't belong to Islam. Sure, in practice there are many more Muslims willing to strap on a bomb, but that's a question of global politics and economics. If the shoe were on the other foot, Ogrish.com would have plenty of grainy video of Xtians murmuring "Jesus Here I Come" whilst aiming an RPG or driving a Cellica into a building.

And in all sincerity, what Jesus said. There's a reason he pissed off the book-learned Pharisees with their cyrptic interpretations and their esoterica--try to live a good, decent life, and ignore the preachers and religion professors. Everything else is a mutation of Jesus' message, e.g. anything today that calls itself Christianity.
posted by bardic at 9:22 AM on February 2, 2006


*spend* = *spent*
posted by bardic at 9:24 AM on February 2, 2006


Yeh, but bardic, FWIW, that simple message was basically the message of the rabbinical movement. Hillel was preaching that in the generation prior to Jesus. He didn't get crucified for it, but the pharisees sure as hell didn't like him very much.
posted by lodurr at 9:33 AM on February 2, 2006


... and as I sit here, I wonder if Hillel's clarity versus Jesus's obliqueness might not explain why one was heralded as "savior" and the other doesn't even make the "prophet" list.
posted by lodurr at 9:36 AM on February 2, 2006


huh, I really thought brownpau was sort of playing with us with all these serious christian links 'cause he had struck me as generally reasonable. what space & time and all within it really are is fascinating, but to imagine humanity as a centerpiece of it all, and some kind of anthropic mind overseeing matters, seems just clueless to me. There are ways to interpret "god" that I can appreciate (spinoza is always a good example) but so many beliefs just seem to have utterly no sense of the size/age of human civilization in comparison with the universe, etc...

That said, I do find this kind of stuff interesting anyway, just for sort of literary/group psychology insight...
posted by mdn at 9:37 AM on February 2, 2006


Whether or not Christ was real is irrelevent to my previous post: what the NT records as his words and actions are, in any event, a pretty damn fine bit of "how to live your life."

Indeed, I've yet to hear anything bad about anything Christ is supposed to have said or done.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:04 AM on February 2, 2006


How about, "I bring not peace but a sword"? Coming to set brother against brother and children against parents?

Sure, you can produce interprettions of those that make them work at a spiritual level. But you've got to interpret them.

As for whether he was real, I take "reality" as implicit in "what he did". Unless, again, he becomes a legendary figure. And as I said, I don't think most modern christians have the stomach for that. It sounds as though you do, and I'm sure you're better off for it.
posted by lodurr at 12:10 PM on February 2, 2006


For your final, he asked you to do something he judged to be impossible? Hmm. Did you manage it?

Of course. We'd gone over it in class, after all.
posted by konolia at 12:14 PM on February 2, 2006


Jesus didn't carry a sword, but his Apostles did--hence a Roman lost (and regained) an ear in Gethsemane.

I'm all for reverence of Jesus the person, but even there it gets sticky--reject your family, reject all personal belongings but for sandals and a walking stick, castigate flora and fauna that don't accept you as the Christ, etc. He's one of literature's great eccentrics, and perhaps one of history's.
posted by bardic at 12:20 PM on February 2, 2006


>>Indeed, I've yet to hear anything bad about anything Christ is supposed to have said or done. Even after a whitewashing of whoever this Jesus character really was we have:

He uses his supernatural powers to destroy a tree out of anger. That's right, the supreme being of the universe loses his temper and cripples a fig tree.

He was very much into damnation. His reputation as an loving hippy type is largley correct but he was not tolerant of other religions, sinners, or disbelievers at all:
"If ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." ["John viii, 24.] "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels ... And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." [Matt xxv, 31-46.]

"Whosoever shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of etemal damnation." ["Mark iii, 29.]

"Except ye repent ye shall perish." [Luke xiii, 3.]
He was also fond of the end times: Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt. iv, 17.

In fact he claimed it would be a 1st century event:

"So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." ["Mark xiii, 29-30.]

Encourages material poverty:

"Him that taketh away thy cloak, forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee, and of him that taketh away thy goods, ask them not again." ["Luke vi. 29, 30.]

Religion not universal, only for Jews:

"Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not," [Matthew x. 5.]

The bewildering and confidence sapping, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

etc etc etc.
posted by skallas at 12:41 PM on February 2, 2006


I stand corrected. That Jesus dude was one mean mofo!
posted by five fresh fish at 12:53 PM on February 2, 2006


i love how dropping stupid statements like "i've yet to hear anything bad" immediately results in hearing the bad. it's a sure-fire response-generator!
posted by five fresh fish at 12:55 PM on February 2, 2006


i've yet to hear anyone offer me a million bucks or even some decent odds on it
posted by cortex at 1:31 PM on February 2, 2006


Skallas always provides an excellent foil to the wishy-washy "Jesus was just a great philosopher" response when he posts his stock "Bad Sayings of Jesus" reply. I'm in full agreement with him on this -- the Jesus of the bible isn't a gentle love-love-love hippie. As the too-often-quoted C.S. Lewis passage goes, "A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell."

But that's derailing from the main topic of eschatology.
posted by brownpau at 2:26 PM on February 2, 2006


(Dammit, I told myself I wouldn't post in my own topics religious topics anymore.)
posted by brownpau at 3:11 PM on February 2, 2006


Ha ha! (I told myself I wasn't going to post at all this week.)
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:27 PM on February 2, 2006


"A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell."

Doesn't that imply that the Devil of Hell is merely a man? How does that work?
posted by mdn at 7:09 AM on February 4, 2006


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