Battle Cry
May 11, 2006 12:10 PM   Subscribe

Battle Cry, the youth arm of the Christian Reconstructionist (also called Dominionist) movement, is holding a rally in Philadelphia this weekend. They've already had events in San Francisco & Detroit. Create your own Battle Plan or just chat with other soldiers in God's Army. But not everyone is happy about it.
posted by scalefree (121 comments total)

 
If the saying, "get a life" is applicable to anyone....
posted by notreally at 12:20 PM on May 11, 2006


Let me recommend this thread (from the 'just chat' link) for your reading pleasure.
posted by uncle harold at 12:21 PM on May 11, 2006


When Battlecry descended upon us in SF:

"Earlier this week, the (San Francisco) Board of Supervisors passed a resolution condemning the "act of provocation" by what it termed an "anti-gay," "anti-choice" organization that aimed to "negatively influence the politics of America's most tolerant and progressive city."

Luce said it was the first time one of his events has been officially condemned.


I just love this town.
posted by tula at 12:28 PM on May 11, 2006


I think that chat thread alone deserves a "batshitinsane" tag.
posted by RakDaddy at 12:29 PM on May 11, 2006


Almost 90 percent of teens have viewed pornography online at one of the 300,000 adult websites, most while doing homework.

Why weren't there classes like this when I was in school?
posted by Otis at 12:30 PM on May 11, 2006


Aren't these supposed to be held in Nuremberg?
posted by Thorzdad at 12:31 PM on May 11, 2006


I signed up. We'll see how long it takes me to get banned.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 12:34 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


Aren't these supposed to be held in Nuremberg?

Traditionally, perhaps. But really, any large stadium will work.
posted by MikeKD at 12:35 PM on May 11, 2006


uncle harold: I followed that thread back a page or so & came upon this little gem:
I have gotten new information that the peopel who invented yoga made it so they could have oral sex with them selves. You may not go that far with the streching. You are doing to same thing they were though.
The more you know...
posted by scalefree at 12:35 PM on May 11, 2006


Extremist christian teens are just as insecure as any other. They've just got different things to worry about.
posted by raedyn at 12:38 PM on May 11, 2006


Wow. Uncle Harold's link is just....disgusting.

Reason #345,365,758 why I hate religion.
posted by quite unimportant at 12:38 PM on May 11, 2006


Nah, raedyn. They've got the same things to worry about. They've just got way freakier coping strategies.
posted by nebulawindphone at 12:39 PM on May 11, 2006


For Christians who complain that they don't like to be lumped together with the fundie/wingnut faction, here's your enemy. Go protest these stupid asshats who're giving your chosen faith a bad name. If you can't stand up in your church and denounce these idiots, why go to church?
posted by doctor_negative at 12:43 PM on May 11, 2006


uncle harold writes "Let me recommend this thread (from the 'just chat' link) for your reading pleasure."

I just love the hardcore Rastafarian posting in there; big ol' picture of Haile Selassie in his sig.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:51 PM on May 11, 2006


Another highlight from Uncle Harold's thread:

I must say I do yoga everyday, actually I have a yoga class at school. All it really is, in our class at least, is various forms of stretching with periods of relaxation. Personally I really enjoy doing yoga, not only is it good for you physically, but also mentally.

I say that because when you meditate you center yourself, you block out all other thoughts and concetrate on your breathing, it's very relaxing and when you are done, it is easier to concentrate on what you are doing, and you feel so much less stressful.

Physically though, there are poses that can remove some of the pressure on your organs, and open up your breathing, so you breath easier. This is good if you are in sports because you learn to control your breathing better, and you also learn good posture and control in general.

============================================
Its not good you need to stop it. I have heard to bad stories one was this bussiness man was in yoga and Bob Larson ran his Bible up his spine and the demons started to manifest. If that dont get you to stop then I dont what will. We are talking about DEMON POSSESSION HERE get away from it and close the door. The other story I think was that he put a Bible on a girls head and the demons manifested again. Crying or Very sad Im telling you to stay away. Just ask me what you can do about this stuff if you are involved or were involved in it you need to close the door.
posted by COBRA! at 12:54 PM on May 11, 2006


In Gaylord Michigan there will also be a Battle Cry Rally!

I'm such an 11 year old.
posted by revgeorge at 1:01 PM on May 11, 2006


Silly question, but why does "God", an omnipotent being, need (let alone want) an "Army"?
posted by LordSludge at 1:08 PM on May 11, 2006


But at least they have their priorities.
posted by verb at 1:08 PM on May 11, 2006


Thousands of tons of genocidal weaponized uranium gas was dropped on Iraq in the five week 2003 “Shock and Awe” bombing campaign alone.
Most American weapons (bullets, land mines, tank shells, dumb bombs, smart bombs, missiles, cruise missiles, etc.) contain high amounts of radioactive uranium. These types of uranium weapons, on detonation, release a radioactive gas and dust which, when inhaled, goes into the body and stays there. It has a life of 45 billion years.

God, what a pile of bullshit!
posted by c13 at 1:09 PM on May 11, 2006


It gets better:
Thousands of tons of genocidal weaponized uranium gas was dropped on Iraq in the five week 2003 “Shock and Awe” bombing campaign alone.
posted by c13 at 1:10 PM on May 11, 2006


The "are catholic christians?" thread is a crack up.
posted by Relay at 1:13 PM on May 11, 2006


Silly question, but why does "God", an omnipotent being, need (let alone want) an "Army"?

uh, because he got bored of smiting doubters a while back and decided to outsource?
posted by b1tr0t at 1:13 PM on May 11, 2006


For Christians who complain that they don't like to be lumped together with the fundie/wingnut faction, here's your enemy. Go protest these stupid asshats who're giving your chosen faith a bad name. If you can't stand up in your church and denounce these idiots, why go to church?
They aren't my 'enemy' any more than marxists are my 'enemy' because I disagree with their fundamental assumptions about the world and the way it should look. I understand what you're saying, but I don't see how it differs from a random right-winger screaming, 'If liberals REALLY love America, they should show it by protesting suicide bombers!'

I believe what I believe, I work to support the things that I agree with, and I work to stop the things that I don't. I pick and choose my battles, because I am a person with only 24 hours in each day. When I encounter these people, I explain why I disagree with them and sometimes they understand. But I'm not going to waste my time engaging in some sort of assinine "Please, love me, fellow progressives! I'm not like these guys!" protest.
posted by verb at 1:13 PM on May 11, 2006


The yoga thread is so illustrative of what is insane about these people. These people seem to have some idea that stretching, focussed breathing, and meditation might have some benefit, but they are so fixated on the Us vs. Them arguments that they almost totally fail to discuss what yoga actually is and whether it is healthy.

It would be absolutely hilarious except that the militaristic war-like rhetoric is probably going to get us all killed.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:13 PM on May 11, 2006


SECOND WIND

SAME THING ONE MORE TIME

We can do it COME ONE YEAH!
posted by nervousfritz at 1:18 PM on May 11, 2006


It would be absolutely hilarious except that the militaristic war-like rhetoric is probably going to get us all killed.
Actually, it's more likely to get them knocked up when they hit college and try to maintain cognitive dissonance without the benefit of their youth group cradle.
posted by verb at 1:18 PM on May 11, 2006


Have you guys heard about that thing where you can wear a rubber band around your wrist and when you are tempted to look at a girl in lust, you snap your wrist with the rubber band to take your mind off of it? It is a really good thing to do and I have found that it works well lol. ....
it is a painful reminder lol, but me, I just kicked myself. That works too. Kick for cussing, kick for lust, kick for anything, you begin to stop doing stuff lol.


So... ignoring the obvious argument about being happy and loving yourself... when did self flagellation become the new self control?
posted by Pink Fuzzy Bunny at 1:20 PM on May 11, 2006


er, avoid cognitive dissonance.
posted by verb at 1:21 PM on May 11, 2006


Ok, fun bashing aside, what are they fighting exactly? In the 90 seconds I spent on their website, I get the opinion they hate having sex, looking at sex, and hearing about sex.

Do they have anything else in their platform?
posted by justkevin at 1:22 PM on May 11, 2006


duh, justkevin! they're TOTALLY against yoga! jeez!
posted by papercake at 1:23 PM on May 11, 2006


Kick for cussing, kick for lust, kick for anything, you begin to stop doing stuff.

That's probably because you fucking die.
posted by c13 at 1:27 PM on May 11, 2006


You're either with us or with the yoga-doers.
posted by showmethecalvino at 1:31 PM on May 11, 2006


Metafilter: You're either with us or with the yoga-doers.
posted by verb at 1:33 PM on May 11, 2006


Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.
posted by everichon at 1:34 PM on May 11, 2006


In the 90 seconds I spent on their website, I get the opinion they hate having sex, looking at sex, and hearing about sex.

Do they have anything else in their platform?
- justkevin

not as far as I can tell.

Having an extremist attitude about all things sexual, and being so sensitive abotu sexual references/thoughts/etc ends up making anything to do with sex a kind of fetish. It means these people are thinking about sex a lot more than your average well-adjusted adult. Sex dominates their behaviour and thoughts. That's so weird. They're making sex into a way bigger deal than it ought to be.
posted by raedyn at 1:34 PM on May 11, 2006


Sex dominates their behaviour and thoughts.

Why is this weird? You'd be thinking about it all the time too, if you weren't getting any.
posted by c13 at 1:38 PM on May 11, 2006


Silly question, but why does "God", an omnipotent being, need (let alone want) an "Army"?

Because God is mobilizing for battle with the KISS ARMY. God Of Thunder, indeed.
posted by djeo at 1:39 PM on May 11, 2006


I'm willing to support the War on Yoga if prayers can bring down gas prices.
(Love the T-shirt ad on this page.)
posted by showmethecalvino at 1:39 PM on May 11, 2006


c13 writes "Sex dominates their behaviour and thoughts. "

They're teenagers.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:39 PM on May 11, 2006


I'm so glad I'm not a teenager anymore.
posted by NationalKato at 1:42 PM on May 11, 2006


Yeah, and that too.
posted by c13 at 1:42 PM on May 11, 2006


Bring it on.
posted by homunculus at 1:44 PM on May 11, 2006


We will not be seduced by a fabricated idea of sex and love.

We will save our bodies and hearts for our future spouses, and once married we commit to pursue faithful and enduring relationships.


Boy, what fun those relationships will be!
posted by c13 at 1:46 PM on May 11, 2006


from uncle harold's link, re yoga -

As a deeply religious practice with the goal of union with the divine, it is antithetical to biblical Christianity.

"Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection"

-- romans 6:4-5, emphasis mine

my point being that the poster has no idea what biblical christianity actually says about union with the divine
posted by pyramid termite at 1:50 PM on May 11, 2006


This generation of youth is slipping away, but the 4% of teens that are saved are an army of God who are willing to do anything to save the other 96%!!

Also, Toby Keith fan.
posted by birdie birdington at 1:52 PM on May 11, 2006


From uncle harold's link:

"What I've heard is that a lot of the focus of Yoga is like emptying your mind, or freeing your mind. I believe that the problem is that you leave yourself very vuneralbe to the devil. However, if you are using to Worship our Lord, then I see no problem with that, just beware of the dangers."

If yoga is so dangerous, what is safe? If I actually believed in this, I would be hiding in a church 24/7.
posted by meringue at 1:52 PM on May 11, 2006


Do they have anything else in their platform?

I think the strategy is to build up a tribal loyalty without filling their heads with actual ideas, to create a malleable army of footsoldiers that can be directed at whatever cause comes next in their plan for Dominion over the US. Make it about identity, not ideas & you'll find them much more useful for accomplishing whatever you want, especially if your ideas are extremist & unacceptable to the majority.
posted by scalefree at 1:56 PM on May 11, 2006


meringue: In the Army of God, you can bring your church with you!
posted by Skorgu at 1:56 PM on May 11, 2006


this bussiness man was in yoga and Bob Larson ran his Bible up his spine and the demons started to manifest.

I'll bet the demons did manifest. I'll bet the guy made a weird face and made a sound like, "Gneeee!" I'll bet he really wasn't expecting anyone to sneak up behind him and run something up his spine.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:57 PM on May 11, 2006


From birdie birdington's link:

We've got this leather backed book and a freedom cry,
And we're an army of God who are ready to die.


Okay, I'm officially scared shitless.
posted by 235w103 at 1:57 PM on May 11, 2006


Make it about identity, not ideas

exactly
posted by pyramid termite at 2:08 PM on May 11, 2006


Soon the Christian right wing is just going to be able to borrow Al Qaeda speeches for their purposes. Just replace "Allah" with "God" and "America" with "the non-Christian world." The rest of the message will be the same.
posted by dopamine at 2:11 PM on May 11, 2006


Actually, it's more likely to get them knocked up when they hit college and try to maintain cognitive dissonance without the benefit of their youth group cradle.

This is so true, most of these kids will fucking burn out in a few years after being surrounded by so much opportunity to 'sin'.

I had a conversation with a Christian reconstructionist once, and he honestly believed gays should be killed. I tried every argument in the book (from my youth group days), but nothing worked, so I just told him he was fucking retarded and moved on. I saw him a few years later and his views had completely changed. It's just a sign of a particularly malleable and unstable mind (as opposed to an open one).
posted by tweak at 2:13 PM on May 11, 2006


It's just a sign of a particularly malleable and unstable mind

As the minds of most teenagers are.
posted by NationalKato at 2:21 PM on May 11, 2006


They know how to use the Internet but spend pages wondering if Yoga is Hindu or Buddhist. Jesus, people, look it up. Hee's a freakin' Wikipedia linkto get you started.

How can people tolerate not knowing something when it is so easy to find out?
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:27 PM on May 11, 2006


People are stupid.
posted by Skorgu at 2:36 PM on May 11, 2006


Could somebody tell me what is on that Wikipedia link? I cannae be bothered.
posted by Falconetti at 2:47 PM on May 11, 2006


It's too late to merely be frightened by these people. It's time to hit back before it is too late.

If you consider yourself a thinking person you MUST cast away your your need for faith in favor of facts. It's not about how one interprets a book. It's in the very nature of "believing" something you can't prove that pits you against other humans. And if you believe living forever is on the line - eventually somebody starts shooting.

Theism is the problem. More and more I am convinced of this. I used to thing "Eh, if you ain't hurting anybody what ever floats your boat." But that I realize is a cop-out. The problem is having an all-powerful deity that gives you a lock on truth and a need for an afterlife.

Conflict with the hard reality of complicated world and those that live there is inevitable. These "beliefs", moving forward, are simply incompatible with a progressive secular society.

They're making sex into a way bigger deal than it ought to be.

That is Unpossible. Sex can never be made into a big enough deal.
I offer the gazillion dollar porn industry as proof. The defense rests, your honor.
posted by tkchrist at 2:59 PM on May 11, 2006


Hey BattleCry christians look hot. Like The OC hot, according to that homepage.

I'll 'help' that generation anytime!
posted by pivotal at 3:01 PM on May 11, 2006


my point being that the poster has no idea what biblical christianity actually says about union with the divine

That hardly seems to matter. From what I see of Christian persecution of Roman Catholics (?!), scholarship is no part of Christianity. Which makes it handy, you know, when you want to quote one part of the Bible, from authority not reason, and ignore other parts. My prediction is that modern Christianity will continue to marginalize any actual teachings of Jesus till they decide that he's more baggage than he's worth.
posted by dreamsign at 3:12 PM on May 11, 2006


Can we please send them to fight in the Middle East and bring back our real soldiers?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:14 PM on May 11, 2006


I remember my first grade teacher telling me that yoga taught you to twist your body into various Satanic shapes.
posted by EarBucket at 3:30 PM on May 11, 2006


This nation needs a reboot.
posted by basicchannel at 3:31 PM on May 11, 2006


monju's got the idea. I'm signing up too. Many of us should sign up, but put a capital M at the end of your username so we can identify ourselves perhaps? Just a bit of brainstorming here...

I'm dreaming that this could be the new 419-baiting bloodsport...
posted by Extopalopaketle at 3:42 PM on May 11, 2006


If only they'd form polygamous cults, that way they'd get some negative media attention.
posted by Artw at 3:47 PM on May 11, 2006


This nation needs a reboot.
posted by basicchannel


I have tried to retain an equable outlook, but earlier today I was reading a couple of PNW rightwing bloggers, and thinking. . ."these guys are nothing but a couple Brownshirts. . it's really starting."

It's scary in that their arguments are so circular, there is no way of having a dialogue.
posted by Danf at 3:49 PM on May 11, 2006


"I'll bet the demons did manifest. I'll bet the guy made a weird face and made a sound like, "Gneeee!" I'll bet he really wasn't expecting anyone to sneak up behind him and run something up his spine."

/me pictures someone punching a random stranger in the face "OUT DEMONS OF RAGE!" as he proceeds to be chased down the street...

Strangely, these ppl aren't nearly as freaky as I expected, in fact they certainly seem a bit more questioning and open than I would've figured.

Seem a lot like me when I was a fundy/pentecostal/AoGer growing up.

Hopefully a few of them eventually move out of their self-righteous shell. I've moved out of that shell, alas, I'm still in my own liberal/anarchist self-righteous shell. Still working on that.
posted by symbioid at 3:56 PM on May 11, 2006


Looks like someone robbed God!
posted by brundlefly at 3:57 PM on May 11, 2006


Speaking of Hindu/Buddhist, it really irritated me when my Pastor was all like "Jesus is the living god, there's an empty grave, Buddha's still there lying around... he never raised from the dead, he's not a real god..."

1. That was never the idea with Buddhism, there was never a "resurrection" claim, dipshit.

2. Original Buddhism never was about Buddha BEING a god in the first place, certainly not in your sense of an almighty creator. Nope, just a dude who had some cool shit to say about suffering and ending it. Later, people may have clung on to all sorts of notions of godhood, but it's still not the same thing.

So when I was a Christian I knew better, thank (deity x here)...
posted by symbioid at 4:00 PM on May 11, 2006


Extremist christian teens are just as insecure as any other. They've just got different things to worry about.

Definitely. Mainly being as thick as pigshit, of course.
posted by Decani at 4:02 PM on May 11, 2006



I signed up. We'll see how long it takes me to get banned.
posted by monju_bosatsu


You need to paste your Battle Plan in here. . .it seems tha one needs to join up to make such a plan.

OK you don't need to, but it would be interesting.
posted by Danf at 4:12 PM on May 11, 2006


How can people tolerate not knowing something when it is so easy to find out?

Because seeking answers for themselves is the most dangerous thing they can do? What if they start to question all the vicious shit they've been fed?
posted by MikeKD at 4:12 PM on May 11, 2006


Decani - STDs and unwanted pregnancies are probably high on the list as well.
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on May 11, 2006


THis thread is a real snarkfest, but it is no longer possible to merely ignore deluded godbots. Nor may they be tolerated, accepted or respected. While we people of reason and Enlightenment were sleeping, the godbots quitely amassed real political power. And now they're ready to use it to turn their insane beliefs into the law of the land. We ignore the he EDominionists at our peril.

More broadly, tkchrist nails it: theism is the problem. It's the infection causing society to rot from the inside out.

Let us Pray for the End of Faith.
posted by oncogenesis at 4:43 PM on May 11, 2006


The Bush threads make for some interesting reading. Here are some highlights:

I don't listen to liberal media or liberal new papers unless i know for sure its true. Bush Rocks!

Check out Romans chapter 13 verse one. "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exsist have been established by God"
That means that even though you may not like the government, you still have to obey them.

bad mouthing the president is a waste of time. He is in a position of authority because God put him there
posted by Otis at 4:55 PM on May 11, 2006


The awesomest part is that conservative Christians stumble onto atheist message boards and glbt message boards and have THIS EXACT CONVERSATION.

I grew up in the evangelical subculture, and some of the criticisms here are spot-on. It's a giant circle-jerk of cognitive dissonance in a lot of groups like this, and the language that's used IS all about battle, about combat, about conquest. That's a tremendous failing of the branch of the faith they've been raised in; it's relying not just on two thousand year old theology, but on two thousand year old metaphors.

But comments like tkchrist's ar just the sort of pious wankery that these people crave to fuel the persecution mindset they've been trained with.
"It's too late to merely be frightened by these people. It's time to hit back before it is too late."
So, who's talking about firing the first shot, now? Grow up, and learn how to live in a world where people disagree with you. It's the same thing these kids need to learn; they're not alone. The way to fight this shit is education, not escalation.
posted by verb at 4:56 PM on May 11, 2006


Well, that was kind of frightening. Funny, and sad, but still frightening.
posted by stinkycheese at 5:03 PM on May 11, 2006


If we'd just try banning the Bible, I think that all problems such as this would be solved.
posted by rougy at 5:14 PM on May 11, 2006


If we'd just try banning the Bible, I think that all problems such as this would be solved.
C'mon, rougy. That wouldn't work. They'd still pass on their virulent ideologies by word of mouth. They're relentless. The only solution is mass extermination. Duh.
posted by verb at 5:19 PM on May 11, 2006


Buddha's still there lying around... he never raised from the dead.


Quite. The entire point was that Buddha managed to die once and for all - none of that tedious reincarnation nonsense for him. Jesus can't say that. Buddha's all "Hey, look at me, I'm dead" and Jesus is in his face with the "But I reincarnated as ME" and Buddha's just laughing at him, going "amateur hour, buddy. Try again after the second coming."
posted by Sparx at 5:24 PM on May 11, 2006


I guess I just want to do them a favor, since they're such loveable, peaceful, reasonable people and all.

If Christians like the Dominionists want to feel persecuted, by God, who am I to let them down?
posted by rougy at 5:25 PM on May 11, 2006


Yes. Verb. I was endorsing a Final Solution. Or a Final Final Solution. that's what I was saying. Even though I, and people like me, are out numbered 5000 to one it's you poor, poor, faithful that need to fear.

[rolls eyes]

Perhaps I should have used a sports metaphor and you silly Christian wouldn't feel so "threatened."

That fact is this. YOU are a threat to me and mine. Not the other way around. And. Not in the next life but in this one. This life. The only provable life we have.

So yeah if it came down to it and I did have the power I would beam all you fuckers to another planet. Or I'd beam myself. But I don't.

Dude it's not agreement I'm after. It's sanity. Believing in fairies, elves and invisible bullshit is INSANE. Why be surprised when said insanity leads to killing people. You shouldn't be. So choose not be insane.

The sectarian world inevitably tilts towards fundamentalism. Look around you. This is an observable fact. So. You better grow the fuck up. Better yet kill yourself now and ascend to paradise.
posted by tkchrist at 5:31 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


"Actually, it's more likely to get them knocked up when they hit college and try to [avoid] cognitive dissonance without the benefit of their youth group cradle."

Unless they end up going places like Biola, Bob Jones, or some "Bible college" where fundies with fancy titles can reaffirm all their misguided opinions about the evils of secularism. Makes me glad I couldn't afford a private education, or I might never have been shaken from my own religious delusions.

Sigh. I keep wishing that fundamentalism had finally peaked, that events like these represented the death throes of religious zealotry, but it just doesn't seem to let up ...
posted by bcveen at 5:32 PM on May 11, 2006


I think the strategy is to build up a tribal loyalty without filling their heads with actual ideas, to create a malleable army of footsoldiers that can be directed at whatever cause comes next in their plan for Dominion over the US. Make it about identity, not ideas & you'll find them much more useful for accomplishing whatever you want, especially if your ideas are extremist & unacceptable to the majority.
posted by scalefree at 1:56 PM PST


Frighteningly true and well-stated.
posted by Marla Singer at 5:46 PM on May 11, 2006


"I keep wishing that fundamentalism had finally peaked..."

Me, too. I don't know what it is. Here in Red State Land, most of the Bible-beaters are pretty shallow and unworldly.

But I know at least three very devout men in their 30's and 40's - men in significant offices of power in the private sector, and one engineer - and I'll be damned if they don't swallow whole every cock-and-bull story fed to them by Christian noise machine.

It's almost as if they're afraid to think for themselves, or they've been very successfully brainwashed. I can think of no other explanation.
posted by rougy at 5:56 PM on May 11, 2006


Yes. Verb. I was endorsing a Final Solution. Or a Final Final Solution. that's what I was saying. Even though I, and people like me, are out numbered 5000 to one it's you poor, poor, faithful that need to fear.
I don't think you're advocating a Hitleresque Final Solution, or some sort of WWIII On The Christians bullshit. But you ARE the one talking about how you need to 'strike' and how you'd 'beam them off the planet' if you could. What specific means DO you advocate? Your language is no different than that of the religious troglodyte fringe you hate; all you establish is that you'd do the same things they do if you had numbers on your side.

Even the numbers gathered inside religious circles establish that at best only 3-6% of the population shares the baseline theological beliefs that extreme fundamentalists do. Responding with the kind of vitriol that you do only serves to legitimize their claims of persecution. So, if it makes you feel better to tell me to go kill myself, spleen-vent away! I'll be over here trying to fight the stupidity, instead of fueling it.
Unless they end up going places like Biola, Bob Jones, or some "Bible college" where fundies with fancy titles can reaffirm all their misguided opinions about the evils of secularism.
Don't be so sure. A friend of mine knew some of the people who voluntered at the Planned Parenthood clinic closest to Oral Roberts University. I'll give you three guesses where the majority of the girls seeking abortions came from, and the first two don't count.
posted by verb at 5:56 PM on May 11, 2006


You'd think that girls smart enough to attend a university with the word "Oral" in it would have known better....
posted by rougy at 6:08 PM on May 11, 2006


I keep wishing that fundamentalism had finally peaked, that events like these represented the death throes of religious zealotry, but it just doesn't seem to let up ...

Fundies ARE the norm. This idea they are the rare exception to believers is completely misguided and a cursory examination of the history of Belief disproves the notion that theist belief trends towards progressive.

We exist now in a tiny enlightened historical bubble called the secular west that has been around for a blink of an eye. What, maybe 50 years? And it is shrinking. Population growth is in the fundamentalist portions of the world. The middle east. Utah. Populations are declining (except for immigration and much of that is fundie) in the secular portions of the world.
posted by tkchrist at 6:16 PM on May 11, 2006


Even the numbers gathered inside religious circles establish that at best only 3-6%

Total BULLSHIT. I want cites.
posted by tkchrist at 6:18 PM on May 11, 2006


all you establish is that you'd do the same things they do if you had numbers on your side.

Can we claim self-defense/self-determination? There's that whole wanting to rule/destroy the world thing they got going on to consider.
posted by Sparx at 6:35 PM on May 11, 2006


theism is the problem

Well, no. Theism is the particular manifestation. Superstition is the problem.
posted by dreamsign at 6:44 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


Excuse me while I bow and scrape, tkchrist. The number I was looking for was 7%, not 6%. See Barna, probably one of the only places you'll find detailed breakdowns of belief points rather than simple denominational affiliation. Where are you getting your numbers? Oh, that's right. You didn't bother with any; you just shared your heartfelt conviction that Christians are very, very bad and lurking everywhere.

If your threat-indicator pegs anytime you see someone who believes in God, it's going to be a dangerous, frightening world for you. Just like a fundie-kid who thinks that THE EVIL lurks around every corner.

Any time someone is so convinced that they are right and the other guy is wrong, and that big stakes are on the line, you've got a recipe for ideological and social disaster. Look at yourself -- you're the one who said that the thinking people of the world need to strike against the theists before it's too late.

Really, though, you're not a threat to any of them. One more rabble-rousing wanker on the Internet spewing hyperbole at people he dislikes isn't going to cause any 'persecution.' But using the same random crap from a Christian message board as proof that they have some kind of master plan to wipe you out is assinine.
posted by verb at 6:51 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


Can we claim self-defense/self-determination? There's that whole wanting to rule/destroy the world thing they got going on to consider.
Sure. 'Cause that's what they claim, too. Isn't it a happy litle circle? Stalin vs. The Crusades is such a fun contest to get into.
posted by verb at 6:52 PM on May 11, 2006


Can we claim self-defense/self-determination? There's that whole wanting to rule/destroy the world thing they got going on to consider.

Yeah. Unlike the theists I got zero interest in running the world or making war.

Mostly I'd like to be left alone. But with fundies out breeding me the world over and imposing their will on my rights, on my science, on my childrens future - being left alone is no longer an option.

Fence sitter Believers that think of themselves as moderates are kidding themselves. They need to think beyond their fears and ask what their faith really grants them. Live THIS life. Like it is your last. Because it is! The world would be a better place for everybody.

Believing doesn't grant the moderate immunity from the problems caused by fundamentalism. In fact as the twit verb so deftly pointed out us non-believers had better shut the fuck up and leave running the world to the moderate believer. Trust THEM to be the buffer for your security. Don't upset the fundies! Don't point out the hypocracies! Lastly for heavens sake you just need to shut up about not believing. And shut up about needing facts to support how the world should run.

It would be nice to have a general agreement on basic facts like the sky is blue and not green. But when you deal with "belief" - the raw substance of which is divine truth that requires no proof - you have a recipe for endless conflict. And being a pacifist will just get you stampeded or sent to the gas chambers.
posted by tkchrist at 6:53 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


self-righteousness and knowing "what's best" for everyone else is the problem

*looks at several comments above significantly*
posted by pyramid termite at 6:53 PM on May 11, 2006


Well, no. Theism is the particular manifestation. Superstition is the problem.
No, people thinking they know what the fuck other people should think and believe -- and try to force them to change 'for everyone's good' -- is the problem. That's true whether you're a baptist, a pagan, a 'bright,' or a buddhist.
posted by verb at 6:54 PM on May 11, 2006


that Christians are very, very bad and lurking everywhere.

I never said Christians. I said THEISTS. It's ALL of you that are the problem. Theism.

As for you link. PAH-lease! That was lame open ended inconclusive crap.

And I'm talking about the WORLD, dipshit. Not just the US.

Your own link attempted to distinguish between "Born Again" or Evangelical? Tomayto - Tomahto. LOL. 33% said that same sex relationships are "ok?" So. Er 77% said their NOT. Yuh. Real progressive club you belong to.

Prepare the transmit beam. ZZZZZZZZZZZZT!

When am I gonna learn I should never argue with a zealot. Buh-bye.
posted by tkchrist at 7:03 PM on May 11, 2006


In fact as the twit verb so deftly pointed out us non-believers had better shut the fuck up and leave running the world to the moderate believer. Trust THEM to be the buffer for your security.
I said that pissing yourself and crying for people to 'strike back aganist the theists' accomplishes nothing, and only serves to fuel their persecution fantasies. I said that ranting about how anyone whose beliefs don't suit your fancy is 'incompatible with civilization' is just as bad as the assinine dominionist crap that gets thrown around.

What I said was that education is the only long-term solution to this problem. Exposing the extreme views of the radicals -- rather than the prettied up versions they like to sell -- is what will turn the majority of the country off.

But don't let my words get in the way -- your straw man needs some kicking.
posted by verb at 7:08 PM on May 11, 2006 [1 favorite]


Sure. 'Cause that's what they claim, too.

It's not a matter of what the opposition claims about its opponents - it's about what those groups self-stated aims are. Perhaps I missed the memo calling atheists to the destroy the world - however, in the linked articles, Dominionists seemed to state pretty clearly that getting the power to stuff up the world sufficiently for JC to pop in for a cup of tea and a chat was, by and large, their raison d'etre. Are you saying that isn't the case?
posted by Sparx at 7:11 PM on May 11, 2006


Sparx, it's certainly possible that some people view it that way, but I've never run across one. Rather, it's a belief that things will get worse and worse in the days leading up to the return of Christ. Everyone I've asked has answered, when pressed, that they believe that they should work to make the world a better and more peaceful place, and that trying to destroy it would be an evil thing.

There's a maddening fatalism that goes along with that, however -- the hardcore dominionists believe that they can't really stop those bad things from happening if they're part of God's plan. In the same way, they can't simply force God's hand by blowin' stuff up.
posted by verb at 7:19 PM on May 11, 2006


YOGA IS A GATEWAY TO BLACK MAGIC
posted by melt away at 7:23 PM on May 11, 2006


What I said was that education is the only long-term solution to this problem.

Shit, we've had 2000 years! We've had Dark Ages, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, Salem Which trials, KKK. If its all about education, we'd better get some new god damned teachers.
posted by c13 at 7:34 PM on May 11, 2006


No, people thinking they know what the fuck other people should think and believe -- and try to force them to change 'for everyone's good' -- is the problem. That's true whether you're a baptist, a pagan, a 'bright,' or a buddhist.

Not as long as there are different legal standards for "relgious" belief. Of course, my belief in little green men could be religious, too, so long as they meet some completely arbitrary metaphysical test.

But yeah, you go ahead and say for the record that all beliefs are equal, no matter how ludicrous. That's what makes America great.
posted by dreamsign at 8:22 PM on May 11, 2006


The number I was looking for was 7%, not 6%. See Barna, probably one of the only places you'll find detailed breakdowns of belief points rather than simple denominational affiliation.

Just a small issue here with the numbers: "7% of US adults classify as evangelicals" but "33% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical", which I assume means 40% classify as either evangelical or "born again", and I think that number is probably more accurate. I spent years in a major evangelical megachurch, and most of them didn't realize what "evangelical" meant or knew that it applied to their system of beliefs. Hell, most didn't even realize they were Protestant, and nearly all of them would have rejected the description "religious". But they all associated themselves with the phrase "born-again".

On a side note, only 59% thought "Enjoying sexual thoughts or fantasies about someone" was "morally acceptable"? What a freaky prudish 41% ...
posted by bcveen at 8:32 PM on May 11, 2006


I spent years in a major evangelical megachurch, and most of them didn't realize what "evangelical" meant or knew that it applied to their system of beliefs. Hell, most didn't even realize they were Protestant, and nearly all of them would have rejected the description "religious". But they all associated themselves with the phrase "born-again".
Well, since tkchrist seems to think that anyone who believes in a deity of any kind doesn't deserve to be part of civilization, it's all just window-dressing anyways.

The people he points to are Dominionists, a group composed almost exclusively of evangelicals. But the people he says we should 'strike back at'? Theists. He's angry enough to wish for the vanishing of a large chun kof Earth's population, but doesn't care enough to actually differentiate between the wildly differing ideologies of those people.

That's no more enlightened, in my opinion, than religious fundamentalists who say that atheists have no place in government "because they don't believe in right or wrong."
posted by verb at 9:13 PM on May 11, 2006


Kingdom Coming: The Rise of Christian Nationalism
posted by homunculus at 9:21 PM on May 11, 2006


"... That's true whether you're a baptist, a pagan, a 'bright,' or a buddhist.

Come on. Have you ever had a Buddhist knock on your door inquiring into the nature of your soul like the Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Christians are way more into converting people than either pagans or Buddhists.
posted by rougy at 9:30 PM on May 11, 2006


Well, thank you, homunculus. I learned a bit more about Dominionists from that piece. I wasn't aware that they were postmilleniallists; that certainly sheds some light on things. The now-fuzzy lines between evangelical and dominionist camps make it a matter of some theological hair-splitting.
posted by verb at 9:31 PM on May 11, 2006


Come on. Have you ever had a Buddhist knock on your door inquiring into the nature of your soul like the Jehovah's Witnesses do?

Christians are way more into converting people than either pagans or Buddhists.
Yeah, that's absolutely true. But the whole point of my original rant was tkchrist's bitch-fest about how we have to strike back at the theists and how they have no place in society. I, in particular, should just kill myself. Everyone else? Transporter-beam off the planet.

Evangelism is annoying, but what's alarming about Dominionists is NOT that they spread their beliefs. It's that they try to enforce them -- or at least some subset of the behavior that would otherwise follow said beliefs. That's a genuine threat. Given tkchrist's comments, I'd put him in the same camp. Fortunately, he has no influence. Dominionists do, and should be opposed. Not because they 'believe stuff' but because of what they do with those beliefs.
posted by verb at 9:35 PM on May 11, 2006


tkchrist comes across as a more dangerous megalomaniac than the ignorant Battle Cry folk. Jesus, tkchrist, your intolerant rantings make this atheist want to go back to church just to spite you. If you think you are convincing people with your overheated rhetoric, you are mistaken. But I imagine your goal is to make yourself feel superior, rather than actually address a real problem, like verb wants to do. Pathetic.
posted by Falconetti at 10:10 PM on May 11, 2006


I wish tkchrist would post another comment...I'm waiting for the next episode.
posted by Pacheco at 11:17 PM on May 11, 2006


What! Don't these people realize that religion and sex are actually antonyms? That means they refer to the same thing!
posted by Laugh_track at 12:08 AM on May 12, 2006


The best way to deal with some one like tkchrist is to ignore them. He is just trying to get a reaction and then say, "look how violent they are! Theism!". I implore anyone who posts on this thread to pretend that those posts don't exist. Let him make whatever inflammatory comments he wants, while the rest of us can continue a normal and civil debate.
posted by Mister Fyodor at 2:39 AM on May 12, 2006


In God’s Country.
posted by Otis at 5:21 AM on May 12, 2006


I think this is all a Satanic plot to discredit Christianity. This 'Dominionism' is evil.

Homonculus, thanks for that link. I was not aware what the meaning of 'dominionism' was, although I've heard it tossed about.

WWJD? Spew chunks!
posted by Goofyy at 6:02 AM on May 12, 2006


The best way to deal with some one like tkchrist is to ignore them. He is just trying to get a reaction and then say, "look how violent they are! Theism!". I implore anyone who posts on this thread to pretend that those posts don't exist. Let him make whatever inflammatory comments he wants, while the rest of us can continue a normal and civil debate.
Sigh. You're right. I apologize for derailing the thread with that pissing contest.
posted by verb at 7:33 AM on May 12, 2006


I think this is all a Satanic plot to discredit Christianity.
I don't think Satan has much work to do on that count...
posted by verb at 7:33 AM on May 12, 2006


tkchrist, you make atheism look bad in exactly the same way that these goofs make religion look bad.

Extremism is unbecoming.
posted by Foosnark at 10:06 AM on May 12, 2006


“tkchrist, you make atheism look bad in exactly the same way that these goofs make religion look bad.” - posted by Foosnark


“The problem is having an all-powerful deity that gives you a lock on truth and a need for an afterlife.... These "beliefs", moving forward, are simply incompatible with a progressive secular society.” - posted by tkchrist

Acrimony and destroying/removing individuals aside I don’t have a problem with this core argument. In execution, I’m not entirely on board.

But - and I say this having defended the exploration of theism and “God” and having had arguements with atheists - he has a valid point.

While I solidly maintain the right of anyone to explore theism, that’s where it ends. In practice any system not based the on direct observation of results should not dictate ends within society.

To a certain degree society must defend itself from that intrusion. I obviously differ somewhat from tkchrist in practical execution, but “beliefs” of any kind without any kind of empirical provability can’t override that which can be observed.

Theism - or any a priori system - may prompt certain ideas such as the ‘inalienable rights of man’ and other useful concepts - or they may initiate hypothoses - but they cannot be policy.

The effects of policy can be shown through data. Therefore we can act to revise policy based on those effects.

In the face of “God” there is no revision possible except through subjective interpretation.

In no way do I want a policy based on subjectivity. And, within reason, I would join tkchrist in opposition to that.

Hell, it’s the same reason I’m conservative - you can’t change good practice derived through experiance for the sake of subjective reasoning.
( “Idealism is fine, but as it approaches reality, the costs become prohibitive” - Buckley)

But I think verb put it well: “Not because they 'believe stuff' but because of what they do with those beliefs.”

These people in particular (dominionists) are unlike others who blindly follow something to fill the hollowness in their lives. They are utopianists - and as such are extraordinarially dangerous.

And I would concede many theists are utopianists (with the caviat that many atheists are as well - typically techno-utopianist - theism is far more reactionary, however).

And often those beliefs bleed over into action. Far more often than for atheists - who can often be as extreme and/or hard to talk to - but are less prone to this behavior simply because they have no belief to act on.
Insofar as “God” is concerned anyway.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:43 PM on May 12, 2006 [2 favorites]


Theism - or any a priori system - may prompt certain ideas such as the ‘inalienable rights of man’ and other useful concepts - or they may initiate hypothoses - but they cannot be policy.
On that count, I can agree wholeheartedly. My objection to his comments wasn't because I want some sort of Dominionist Neo-Zion JesusLand. I don't think Dominionists are 'utopianists' -- at least, anymore than anyone who works towards an ideal. The problem is what you brought up above: they want to make their subjective system of beliefs the policy.
posted by verb at 4:18 PM on May 12, 2006 [1 favorite]


This might be a bit late - yeah, verb - I noticed that’s where you and tk were sort of dancing around.
Lots of folks get heated and miss their common ground.
(of course, I never do that myself *smirk*)

I’d argue that utopianists used in the perjorative sense I used it in means idealist to the exclusion of all else or to the exclusion of real or practical applications.
Seeking a state that meets a pure unrefined ideal without heeding practical necessities, etc.
I didn’t want to denegrate folks who have ideals and work towards them (quakers come to mind). I’m sure we agree there are ideals worth pursuit. But myopia and fanaticism is something to be avoided.

Tough to communicate complex thoughts clearly sometimes. For me anyway.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:13 AM on May 15, 2006


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