The first link is graphic and distubing as well. posted by bigmusic at 11:19 PM on May 4, 2007
I watched a video of a stoning in Iran when I was in college. It was shown by an Iranian professor who taught "Peoples of the Middle East." The woman was buried to her waist in the ground and a white sheet was placed over her. At first, you only saw the stones hitting the amorphous shape, but gradually, as the stones increased, scarlet splotches of blood began to seep into the cloth. Someone threw a large stone that tore part of the cloth, which seemed to incite a frenzy. Eventually, the cloth was completed rent by the rocks and all that was left was a mutilated body slumped over. It looked like an animal rather than a human. It was savage and nauseating. posted by Falconetti at 11:23 PM on May 4, 2007 [2 favorites]
Perhaps it’s time for the human race to die and let the cockroaches take over - maybe they can develop into intelligent life, because we sure don't seem to be able to. posted by DreamerFi at 12:22 AM on May 5, 2007
maybe they can develop into intelligent life, because we sure don't seem to be able to
religious BS comes with the intelligence, unfortunatley, just as malware comes with complicated OSs, for similar technical reasons. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:26 AM on May 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
Who is this Publius Pundit? I'll sue I say, I'll sue! How can he steal what I have already stolen? Has he no honor? He does appear to be a friend of the people though. posted by publius at 12:29 AM on May 5, 2007
"simplistic?"
No, some things really are simple.
There is no place in the 21st century for this shit. posted by 2sheets at 12:34 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
You would think with such an abominable act that there would be no real need or place for editorial embellishment - the writeup in the stophonourkilling link says that "hundreds of men beat and stoned" the victim and that they "stripped her body". As far as I can tell both of these descriptions are patently false. Am I wrong?? Morelike 8 men and no stripping.
Tin tacks? Well, if 'we' wish to effect changes in different cultures, no matter how noble the intent, it would be nice if we could approach with arguments based in fact and not spuriousness. posted by peacay at 12:49 AM on May 5, 2007
I swear, the next person who calls me a "culturalist" or some other fucked-up PC moniker.... I'm gonna get Shiite on their ass. posted by tehloki at 12:51 AM on May 5, 2007
you g*damn culturalist, whatever that is supposed to mean. posted by caddis at 12:53 AM on May 5, 2007
Morelike 8 men and no stripping
Really? Because in the pictures from the first link she appeared to have a skirt on, and in the video just a shirt and underwear.
Seems like stripping to me.
But I guess 8 men stoning a 17 yold to death is better than a hundred? posted by aclevername at 1:07 AM on May 5, 2007
I don't know about stripped, but she's down to her underwear in the video, and no one bothers to cover her up. It gives me the feeling there's at least some sexual component to it, although I'm not even close to being culturally clued-in enough to decipher what it might be. posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:10 AM on May 5, 2007
In related news , people accused of violent crimes (sometimes without any conclusive evidence) are injected and killed with lethal substances because frying them alive with electricity was too cruel and unusual.
Appartently these well learned, well dressed savages place themselves on some kind of moral high ground and do what they tell others not to do ; we expect them to compare and contrast stoning practices with injection practices so that they don't look as much savage as the stoners. Such are the depths of delusional thinking. posted by elpapacito at 1:25 AM on May 5, 2007 [8 favorites]
in the video just a shirt and underwear
Conceded. I didn't see that at first.
But I guess 8 men stoning a 17 yold to death is better than a hundred?
Yes of course. That's exactly what I was implying genius. posted by peacay at 1:26 AM on May 5, 2007
To solve a problem you must first understand it.
Your gut reaction, and mine, is to immediately get mad and want justice. This is our culture and what we are taught and learned.
But look at it from their POV, to them this is justice and right. They see us and see un-religious hate-mongers who are ignorant of their ways.
For example, back in the days of Samurai in Japan, it was perfectly OK for Samurais to kill a lower-caste for just accidentally touching your sword walking down a crowded street, no one would bat an eye.
We can't change their ways just because we think our way is better. Why? What proof can you offer these people other then technological advances? It's like trying to convince creationists that evolution is real. No way.
You can be just as bad as them and hate them and do violence against them, and they will see it not as justice but just more wrong done against them for nothing.
This goes all the to war in Iraq, we are forcing our ways on another people saying "Our way is better, do it or else." Of course they will resisit, who wouldn't?
I think things like this takes special people who can appeal to all sides, understand and explain everything, and bring about change, slowly.
In related news , people accused of violent crimes (sometimes without any conclusive evidence) are injected and killed with lethal substances because frying them alive with electricity was too cruel and unusual.
You're one of those guys who uses every female genital mutilation thread on MeFi as an opportunity to rant about the Foreskin Holocaust, aren't you? posted by schroedinger at 1:34 AM on May 5, 2007 [7 favorites]
elpapacito: I'm deeply anti-death penalty, but you have to draw a distinction between private, (relatively) painless execution following years and years of trial and appeal, and this: public execution, mob rule, rage-based brutality completely independent of rational or unbiased justice.
This situation is not the counterexample to capital punishment. It's the counterexample to theocracy. posted by Riki tiki at 1:42 AM on May 5, 2007 [6 favorites]
As outraged as I get with this sort of appalling shit it's yet another reason why you just can't go around exporting democracy and western values. Doesn't work. Bad shit happens. People in power (Religious/Political) abuse it and it's really down to the oppressed (without external intervention on a military level) to get their acts together and fight back. We can help as best we can by providing support but that's about it.
Remember when men in white robes ran around exacting justice on Blacks in America, hanging them from trees and shit - that was within the lifetime of some people still alive. And look where America (even with all it's faults) is now. posted by twistedonion at 1:46 AM on May 5, 2007
and no one bothers to cover her up
I found and watched the whole video. I kind of wished I hadn't, but then again sometimes you have to take the blinders off. In the longer video I saw, someone attempts to cover her up at least once early on.
I've written, previewed and deleted about a half-dozen comments about this. I can't seem to find the vein. So here's the raw data:
The number of cell phones you can see filming this is more than a little unsettling. And they don't look like the secretive, I Must Tell The World About This Horror filmings, either. They look like the kind of guys who take pictures of the chick who takes her top off while she's dancing on the bar. Only with less skull crushing.
The relatively peaceful and grateful Kurds did this? Aren't these guys supposed to be the reliable security forces dudes?
This is why I'm an atheist. No god worth eating a wafer or using a compass for would put up with this shit.
I think my neighbor is a witch. When we burn her at the stake, will you bring the marshmallows?
The girl who works in my office half the day on work-study is seventeen. She's helpful as hell and hopes to go to community college when she graduates.
Such are the depths of delusional thinking.
She was seventeen. She had a boyfriend. That's why they beat her to death with rocks.
Oh well, at least the guy wasn't black. posted by Cyrano at 1:48 AM on May 5, 2007
I simply do not care that one's beliefs may place them in the 'right' in a situation like this.
When it comes to the willful taking of another's life for something so petty as this.. this is savage.
It's one thing to try and execute people to the full extent of the law- to the best of the ability of the justice system- a system that while it unfortunately makes mistakes, also has vindicated itself over and over.
This- this is just fucking murder. posted by id at 2:02 AM on May 5, 2007
You know who else wrote about teenagers getting killed for loving the wrong people? Shakespeare, that's who. posted by hattifattener at 2:10 AM on May 5, 2007
Countzen, you got it right, and this is the most important insight that we, as a species, have had. Its not yours, of course, but if we are ever to move on from being little tribal shits who happily dehumanize any non-tribe members, we have to understand how the world looks from their point of view and then deal with it. That's not countenancing anything. That's just being brave enough to be bigger. We need to develop a collective sense of basic decency which is anthropocentric, rather than tribal. posted by fcummins at 2:12 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
"But look at it from their POV, to them this is justice and right."
And you know what? I don't give a good god damn. All the talk of human rights and tolerance and cultural sensitivity is worthless if you see a teenager stoned to death by a mob and can't say without equivocation that it's not going to happen as long as there are sane, rational people who will stop it and use force if needed.
We can all sit on the floor and have some tea and talk about religon, but you will put down the rock or I will shoot you. posted by 2sheets at 2:22 AM on May 5, 2007 [21 favorites]
id: I couldn't have said it better myself.
There's no way in hell I'm going to watch that video, just the descriptions in this thread is more than enough, and it makes me sick to my stomach. posted by VirtualWolf at 2:26 AM on May 5, 2007
you have to draw a distinction between private, (relatively) painless execution following years and years of trial and appeal
We can't just focus on the differences so that we feel better for inflicting less (maybe) pain and then conveniently forget about the commonalities ; certainly there is a difference between stoning and hanging and lethal injection, but that's stating the fucking obvious and drawing distinction between killing methods... for what purpose ? The purpose is clear : to feel NOT LIKE the stoners, maybe to paint them as inhuman savages, to claim that our advanced judgment methods makes us better. Yet these are clearly only rationalizations, because the end is exactly the same : exactly like unsophisticated savages we kill people for whatever "reason" , and no amount of denial can change the facts.
public execution, mob rule, rage-based brutality completely independent of rational or unbiased justice.
Don't you see the stunning contradiction ? We don't want mob rule and brutality : because of this desire we build systems that promote rationality and discourse , rule of law. Then we enact law that basically say : we turned every stone and still found you were guilty ...regardless of the fact you are closed behind concrete walls, we still think it is reasonable to kill you.
So ..we want laws and reason against emotive excesses and mob rule..but we still want to kill you, KILL YOU MOTHERFUCKER.
ld, I think the original point was trying to get at something deeper.
We all filter "what's right" through our acculturation filters.
Most civilized countries of the world look upon our criminal justice system, including its capital punishment component, with abject disgust, yet you feel it is "vindicated".
for something so petty
Of course this event was murder by our standards, and by human standards we liberals would like to see advanced in the world, but this community has other standards.
From what I gather, this sect feels maintaining the ongoing viability of their minority community, plus the usual protection of "face" of the family, vindicates this brutal method of punishment by keeping its members in line
Stuff like this is straight out of the Old Testament.
To draw the circle to a close, I should note that a sizeable minority in this country desire a more explicit government endorsement of this same collection of Hebrew laws, myths, and history. Well, the parts of it they like at least. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 2:43 AM on May 5, 2007
Heywood Mogroot:Of course this event was murder by our standards, and by human standards we liberals would like to see advanced in the world, but this community has other standards.
You know, I don't care what those standards are. Either the people responsible are intrinsically sick and twisted, or their culture is - regardless, they are a detriment to humanity, and need to be put down. Having your culture be an excuse for your inhuman behavior went out with the Nazis, and with good reason. posted by Mitrovarr at 3:35 AM on May 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
The video on Publius Pundit looks like it's all after-the-fact -- one of the people who was standing in a circle around the victim tried to get a close shot but was jostled so much that the camera's all the hell over the place. You get brief glimpses of the girl's body, and you can see some other onlookers are using camera phones to get shots too. She's in some sort of red top -- a jacket, I think -- and some surprisingly sexy panties for a culture that freaks out and gets all murderous and stuff over the notion of a girl dating a guy who's the wrong flavor. Not that there's anything particularly titillating about any of this. Saddening is more like it. In my culture, she would've been grounded, not gang-murdered. It's like spanking a crying baby with an axe. posted by pax digita at 4:14 AM on May 5, 2007
The video on Publius Pundit looks like it's all after-the-fact
Yes.
In this one [caution: porn ads abound, in addition to the horrific stoning video], she's still alive at the beginning, struggling on the ground and trying to shield her head. Until it gets hit with a big fuckin' cinder block. posted by Gator at 4:41 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
elpapacito: it's with some difficulty that I'll try to play the devil's advocate here.
By and large, rational supporters of the death penalty don't want to "kill you motherfucker." They see it as a necessary evil. It's a universal incentive to obey the law, and a form of ultimate punishment when incarceration isn't "enough".
In other words, "the punishment fits the crime" has to work both ways. Especially for people who basically live in the prison system anyway, imprisonment alone doesn't rise to meet the viciousness of a cold-blooded murder, and consequently isn't enough to discourage it.
This is the rational pro-death penalty argument as best I can tell, from numerous debates on the topic with people I respect. (I'm intentionally ignoring emotional appeals and tough-on-crime posturing because, though they may be the most visible forms of advocacy, I don't consider them rational)
The relevant problem with this reasoning is that the "viciousness" of a crime is very subjective, and that's where I think you have to draw a distinction between this atrocity and capital punishment in, say, the US. Here, we have quite a bit of oversight, and a constitution that provides fundamental protections in an attempt to avoid abuses. It's only after a very extensive appeals process that we resort to extreme measures.
We don't let angry mobs play judge, jury, and executioner. We don't execute people based on religious offenses. We don't use the execution as a public stunt to make an example out of offenders. We don't intentionally choose brutal and painful methods of execution. We, as a whole, don't do it out of bloodlust, as you seem to imply.
And as much as I'd prefer to live in an America that has abolished the death penalty, I do think that our status quo is fundamentally unlike the savagery we see in this FPP. posted by Riki tiki at 4:43 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
I didn't watch the video and will not. The entire thing is barbaric. I suppose some attempt to "understand" why it was done is warranted, but only in the service of stamping it out. I have to confess it makes me think that we Americans have the force with us, because that is nothing if not the dark side. posted by MarshallPoe at 4:59 AM on May 5, 2007
Pathetic laws! Based on nothing but a thought of belief. Just like a though that once earth was flat. Where you'd be stoned to death if you dare to say it. Or once a belief that many gods ruled the world. Heck each person had their own god.
Then nothing but out of though, everyone agreeded, "Ah! So we can satisfy our egos, we'll all believe in XYZ god". posted by mesmerx at 5:10 AM on May 5, 2007
You know what? I agree with posting about honor killings and posting links to news sources about the crime on Metafilter, and I know there's a drive to make Metafilter articles more comprehensive and tactile.
I don't agree with posting videos of the violence itself on the FPP. If you have to, I would recommend doing it after a "more inside".
I've never enjoyed or approved of or thought wise the newer forms of voyeurism and pornography rooted in violence. Sometimes I think we Westerners go too far, thinking we had to be there. We didn't. We don't. We can, from afar, criticize those who were. We do not have to see it to believe it. posted by kalessin at 5:13 AM on May 5, 2007
It may not be fair to draw an analogy between this cowardly abomination and capital punishment -- but it strikes me that crowd participating in this is disturbingly similar the jeering celebratory crowd outside prison here (Lincoln, NE) when they executed Harold Otey. posted by RavinDave at 5:16 AM on May 5, 2007
There's only one rule that I know of, babies - God damn it, you've got to be kind. posted by Bokononist at 5:21 AM on May 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
Find out more about why the followers of muhammad are violent at...
I'm sure that will provide valuable background to this heinous murder in a Yezidi community.
I suppose I'm both a universalist and a cultural relativist. I would not hesitate to intervene if I had the opportunity to prevent something like this, but I've lived in the world long enough to realise that you're not going to arrive at a valid set of universal values that don't need imposing externally without understanding and engaging the variety of cultures in the world.
I think you only have to look to, say, women's movements in cultures where appalling practices like this are still prevalent to see that no community is monolithic and there will be forces of progression. I have little doubt that there will have been people in the community where this crime occurred who are as outraged as any of us here. What I take from history is that the best you can do from the outside is to live up to better values yourself to provide a contrast, and support allies for change inside when they ask. posted by Abiezer at 5:49 AM on May 5, 2007 [4 favorites]
The analogy to capital punishment is one thing. But we excuse ourselves as civilized rather too easily when we forget that we engage in the functional equivalent of this act all the time, whenever we drop bombs on civilian-inhabited targets, which is all the fucking time. You want to see sheets turn scarlet from blunt force trauma? Look at the aftermath of a concussion bomb on an ordinary house full of women and children. You want to see complete innocents torn to shreds by mobs of men hurling things? Look at the work of the troops we're supposed to "support" (as if paying taxes isn't by definition "supporting" the troops, which I'm sick of doing when it means condoning murder).
There are tens if not hundreds of thousands of Du'a Kahlil Aswads in graves in Iraq today. Whether Sadaam put them there, or mobs of ignorant theocrats, or we did it, it's all murder. posted by spitbull at 5:52 AM on May 5, 2007
This is not "best of the web". This is humans at their fucking worst.
I wish I could un-know this post. posted by casarkos at 6:08 AM on May 5, 2007
But that said, it's a lovely spring morning in New York, the kind that makes me want to stretch, smoke a spliff, and say "fuck religion." All of it. All believers. All the irrational nonsense they spout. Fuck national prayer breakfasts and "honor" killing parties and creationism and all the rest. Your "god" is either a powerless fuckhead who allows awful, evil things to happen to innocent people, or s/he/it enjoys and condones this stuff (as many believers, and those doing the stoning or blaming Hurricane Katrina on teh gayz seem to believe).
For what it's worth, I also oppose posting these sorts of videos on MeFi, certainly in FPPs, no matter how much warning is given. We can be outraged without participating in the prurient indignities being visited on this poor girl's last moments. MeFites are intelligent enough to form appropriate levels of anger and outrage over clear verbal descriptions. The video is overkill, and just a little too interesting to some people. posted by spitbull at 6:15 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Find out more about why the followers of muhammad are violent at...
More like the followers of Satan! (Well, Shaitan, at least - the equivalant name, if not exactly the same interpretation.)
I haven't and won't watch the video, but I think there are people who should see it, because the leaders they vote for would like to see similar kinds of 'justice' in the U.S. posted by bashos_frog at 6:26 AM on May 5, 2007
And in other news, Gary L. Gienger of Upton Massachusetts, reports that April in Kurdish northern Iraq is just divine. Mission truly accomplished, even.
Seriously folks, can we hurry up those efforts to colonize Mars? I believe the asshats of all creeds, colors and races will be better left to their own devices once I'm gone. posted by paxton at 6:28 AM on May 5, 2007
I wonder if she has any brothers, and how they fell about the issue. This is why I think all religious people are completely insane. Even those who think they're harmlessly praying before dinner. You're all completely insane. posted by autodidact at 6:29 AM on May 5, 2007
i wonder why no one's talking about the 23 guys who got pulled off the bus and killed ... posted by pyramid termite at 6:44 AM on May 5, 2007
I think spitbull, autodidact and the other religion critics are missing the point. Both religious people and atheists commit acts of barbarism. See the Crusades on the one hand and Soviet class murder on the other. The common thread is, however, barbarism. These people simply do not value human life the way we do. However inspired, that's the common element. It pretty much boils down to "love thy neighbor." They don't. posted by MarshallPoe at 6:47 AM on May 5, 2007
It's one thing to try and execute people to the full extent of the law- to the best of the ability of the justice system- a system that while it unfortunately makes mistakes, also has vindicated itself over and over.
This- this is just fucking murder.
No, all executions are murder. Without exception. There is no rational need for any execution to ever occur. None whatsoever. Attempting to justify your country's barbaric practices by saying "Hey! Look! Not as barbaric as those brown people!" is completely ridiculous. posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:48 AM on May 5, 2007
The family of Du’a Khalil Aswad has no honor.
I hope they'll be reminded of this very often in the future. posted by sour cream at 6:50 AM on May 5, 2007
This is why I think all religious people are completely insane. Even those who think they're harmlessly praying before dinner. You're all completely insane.
Fuck off. Barbarism is a human trait, and whether one uses religion to justify it (as in this case), or political theory (see: Lenin, Stalin, et al) is immaterial.
Moreover, using an extreme example to tar everyone else with the same brush? Smacks of bigotry.
As I have said time and time again: despite a very vocal minority who wishes otherwise, the vast majority of religious people prefer to keep it private, and have no interest in pushing it on anybody else. So how about you keep your stupid little judgements to yourself, m'kay? posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:54 AM on May 5, 2007
this community has other standards
See, the thing is the "community" deciding the standards is not comprised of all of the people upon whom the standards will be imposed. To wit: it's largely men deciding what will be done to women.
It's this kind of patronizing, myopic thinking that makes people dislike liberals: every culture has problems -- western ones included, certainly -- but in the rush to be open-minded and non-judgmental some people seem to want to deny that fact. Honour killings happen to be a big problem. Are we really supposed to think this girl went willingly to her death, shrugging, "welp! It's just the culture 'round these parts!" Would honour killings even be such a big problem if women were so accepting of the standards imposed on them? Presumably if these mores were acceptable to everyone, they would be deviated from only rarely and these killings would hardly ever happen, no?
At some point this kind of attitude becomes insulting too: it carries a connotation of "well, you just can't expect any more from these people." Yes, the world can. They're humans, and just like all humans, they're conflicted and flawed, and capable of both great evil and great good.
This is a terrible thing that's happened, and just because it happened somewhere else doesn't make it less so. posted by AV at 6:56 AM on May 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
OH NOES, I THOUGHT HONOUR KILLINGS WAS A MUSLIM THING! posted by delmoi at 7:00 AM on May 5, 2007
These people were sane. They were not brain damaged. They were (presumably) just as intelligent as you or me.
There are people in this thread calling for the men who stoned this girl to be killed - what is the difference? That most of them wish to be slightly more humane in the method of execution is nice of them, I suppose.
They were killing this girl for the same reason those people want to kill them. In their eyes, abhorrent behaviour that cannot and should not be tolerated must be stopped. Both groups advocate violence (and in some cases extreme violence) to stop this problem now and stop it from happening again (stoning to death must be a hell of a deterrent).
People use culture, religion, education and reason to solve the problems they see every day. They give mental tools that allow us to work with others in our environment to make things better. The problem is that both sides here don't have a tool for solving vile and 'unforgivable' acts except the ancient stand-bye of violence. I don't have a solution, but I passionately believe that killing everyone who disagrees with you, however justified you think it is, will not work. I may be wrong. posted by YAMWAK at 7:02 AM on May 5, 2007
By and large, rational supporters of the death penalty don't want to "kill you motherfucker." They see it as a necessary evil. It's a universal incentive to obey the law, and a form of ultimate punishment when incarceration isn't "enough".
Meanwhile, here in this country, are we even pretending that imprisonment/detention is about rehabilitation anymore? posted by Uther Bentrazor at 7:08 AM on May 5, 2007
Also: just because there are things wrong in our own culture does not make them right in another. It makes them both problems that need fixing. posted by AV at 7:16 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Of course people are inherently barbaric. Of course there are other things that can drive us to succumb to barbarism, but none as insidious as religion.
As I have said time and time again: despite a very vocal minority who wishes otherwise, the vast majority of religious people prefer to keep it private, and have no interest in pushing it on anybody else. So how about you keep your stupid little judgements to yourself, m'kay?
Say what you want, doesn't change my feelings that you have an imaginary friend, and are thus insane. I do appreciate you keeping it to yourself, but it doesn't make you any less crazy. posted by autodidact at 7:20 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
This is a group rape and public murder. "True Believers" creep me out. It doesn't matter what color penis they claim their god has. They are sick fucks, one and all. The Christian fundamentalists are different only by degree. posted by chance at 7:28 AM on May 5, 2007
Let me put the brakes on and apologize pre-emptively for that last comment. Reading it, I suppose I do come off like a bigot. Out in the "real world" I don't attack people's religious beliefs, and keep my own beliefs mostly to myself like dirtynumbangelboy suggests. I should use more measured language on Mefi... think my blood sugar's low right now or something. posted by autodidact at 7:28 AM on May 5, 2007
The Christian fundamentalists are different only by degree.
Perhaps, but degrees matter a hell of a lot. Ask the dead girl. posted by MarshallPoe at 7:40 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
warning and disturbing
Honest question: What does posting someone's violent death add to our understanding of the event and its consequences? posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:50 AM on May 5, 2007
"regardless of the fact you are closed behind concrete walls, we still think it is reasonable to kill you"
Imprisonment doesn't prevent murderers from killing guards and other inmates. posted by aerotive at 7:56 AM on May 5, 2007
MarshallPoe and DirtyNumb, just because people can be barbaric in the absence of religious motivations or rationalizations doesn't mean religion isn't to blame for specific forms and incidents of barbarism as such. And both of you invoke Soviet brutality as barbarism in the absence of religion. It wasn't. Soviet communism was a cult of personality. It was certainly a religion in the ways it mobilized popular violence.
We have yet to see a human society that is truly post-religion. I think it's time we gave it a chance. posted by spitbull at 8:18 AM on May 5, 2007
Honest question: What does posting someone's violent death add to our understanding of the event and its consequences?
What he said.
The only reason this is even news is because it got on YouTube. posted by thirteenkiller at 8:20 AM on May 5, 2007
Why the hell would you post this.
Ironically, today is
Tammy Wynette's birthday.
For those of you under a certain age I'll explain
:
D I V O R C E
and
Stand by your Man
Just google her, you'll get plenty posted by Cedric at 8:33 AM on May 5, 2007
This is disgusting. Thank you for posting the video, because until I saw the glee, the lust for murder in these peoples voices, a 17 year old girl kicked and smashed and mortally crushed by her own kin, this was just another death by strangers for unimaginable customs somewhere else. Until I felt the hot tears welling up, the knots in my stomach, the outrage and vomit threatening to burst from my gut, this story was just words. I was saddened to read this last night, when I first saw the Daily Mail story, but until I saw the horrific reality of it, I didn't fully understand.
Similar to the disparity between the VT killings and the every-day deaths of many more in the Middle East, my numbness and isolation from these sort of tragedies kept me safe, kept me from being there and knowing how terrifying it really is. Until it is in my face. Until I became one of those security people who watched a young girl die painfully for vanity. Until I had to hear the sounds of a mod screaming for murder.
I understand that people might not want to see this, and it is their right to not. Not seeing it is your way of keeping it out of your world, but this is the worst of humanity, and this is happening every day, every day. It is more than words. posted by dozo at 8:34 AM on May 5, 2007 [6 favorites]
We have yet to see a human society that is truly post-religion. I think it's time we gave it a chance.
Great, but in the meantime (and it's gonna be a long meantime--like, forever), can we stop calling religious people murders? Sorta sets the wrong tone... posted by MarshallPoe at 8:35 AM on May 5, 2007
For example, back in the days of Samurai in Japan, it was perfectly OK for Samurais to kill a lower-caste for just accidentally touching your sword walking down a crowded street, no one would bat an eye.
False. It's easy to glorify the past, because no one is available to belie your description. But there's plenty of evidence that the mythical smoothly-operating society of pre-industrial Japan was just as much a thin veneer as heroism of cowboys in pre-industrial America, or the sheet placed over a body no one wants to see after they've mangled it with their own flaws.
Phrases like "perfectly OK" and "no one would bat an eye" in the context of murder suggest humans are so completely maleable by culture that there is absolutely no shared humanity. That's not a healthy view of the world, not least because it's untrue. The first step in understanding other cultures is understanding that other people are pretty much the same as we are. They get upset when their friends die, they abuse power when given too much. posted by scottreynen at 8:50 AM on May 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
dozowrites'Until I had to hear the sounds of a mod screaming for murder.'
It would also be horrible to see a youtube video of an Iraqi family immediately after a U.S. bomb hits their home, where an eight year old girl impaled on a shard of glass is struggling to crawl out from under the torso of her mother, but loses too much blood and twitches a few times and dies. Is there a youtube video of that? Because I really don't understand anything in the abstract anymore.
And one day, god willing, my children will be so inured to the horror of video that they will actually have to see, touch, and smell the carnage in order to understand or feel anything about it. And perhaps their children will just be completely devoid of any feeling whatsoever. The future's so bright, I can't wait. posted by luser at 8:53 AM on May 5, 2007 [5 favorites]
Frankly, if the mind of God is so convoluted that this has to fit somewhere in his big scheme, then you damn well should feel very, very hopeless for the universe, because its creator is one ripe bastard.
If you realize that humans are animals and belief and actions like these resulting from belief are just left over remnants of our lizard brains, then there's at least a little hope that we can get beyond these kinds of unfathomably brutal nightmares. It may take a long, long time, though.
The only reason this is even news is because it got on YouTube. - In a just world, every time it happened it would be news, and there would be arrest and trials, and punishment. When it comes to this utterly nonsensical lunatic behavior, there would be punishment. posted by smallerdemon at 8:57 AM on May 5, 2007
The problem is that in today's PC world you can't call this what it is.
This is the barbaric act of primitives. Primitives who learned how to use technology like cell phones, but still can't come to terms with the sun-god in the sky.
These people are backwards, primitive, savages. And woe be unto anyone who says otherwise. These people have no place in modern civilization. Mankind has outgrown this sort of thing.
Every man on that video should be rounded up, and executed by the state. One at a time. Publicly, on television. And after each one is killed, they should read a proclamation saying "this is what happens to those who participate in honor killings".
Repeat 100-200 times. It would take most of a day.
That would make an impact. If these primitives are capable of understanding anything.
And for those of you who say state-administered justice is the same as lynchings by mobs, you are intellectual midgets who have no place in any serious adult discussion. Administering justice of any kind, be it executions, incarcerations, or garnishments of property is incredibly unpleasant business. That's why it is one of the functions of the state. I am endlessly amused by people who believe locking someone in a concrete box for 45 years and removing all autonomy and dignity is "better" than executing them.
Also, while I have disdain for Christianity, every time something like this comes up and someone mentions the Crusades or the Inquisition, I like to remind them that Christianity, by and large, gave that up several HUNDRED years ago. (Abortion clinic shootings/bombings notwithstanding).
This is not a historic film, a remnant from a very long time ago. It just happened. While you were trying to decide whether to get a hybrid automobile or if you should upgrade your laptop, there are people in another country, probably again today, crushing a young girl to death with rocks via mob rule.
I agree with autodidact, and I don't think you should apologize at all.
Believing in a magic imaginary man in the sky, regardless of what name you use for him, predisposes you to doing crazy, ridiculous shit in his name.
If you are an adult of reasonable intelligence, and you *REALLY* believe there is some ethereal being watching and participating you your daily life, you have a mental deficiency, and you cannot be trusted to act rationally.
Fucking barbaric primitive savages. I hope they all die a cruel, painful, excruciating death. You know, like the one they inflicted on an innocent girl. posted by Ynoxas at 9:03 AM on May 5, 2007 [8 favorites]
23 people killed in retaliation for killing this girl for converting to Islam ...
And what if the boy converted to be with his love, what's the penalty for apostasy from Islam?
Oh, that's right, it's death. So it's killing those who have the same values as you do, but just believe different things. Great. It's not about values, it's not about being "more faithful" or any bullshit like that.
Killing those who believe different things is okay. That's it. No golden rule. posted by cotterpin at 9:12 AM on May 5, 2007
am endlessly amused by people who believe locking someone in a concrete box for 45 years and removing all autonomy and dignity is "better" than executing them.
Because you belong to the society of the easily amused, like Fark , midgets and whatnot. But that's another story...
...what you clearly don't understand is this SIMPLE difference
1. I can cage Joe Innocent and make him suffer for a lot of time..but also can cage him for a while, notice I was wrong and repair somehow. I know, I can't give back the time spent in prison, but I can make the remaining time a lot better ..in a form of attempt to compensate.
2. If I kill Joe Innocent ...I can't do shit for him.
How difficult is that ? What part of "not being able to resurrect" don't you understand ?
Every man on that video should be rounded up, and executed by the state. One at a time. Publicly, on television. And after each one is killed, they should read a proclamation saying "this is what happens to those who participate in honor killings".
That is exactly what you don't understand. They killed the girl in a twisted attempt to make an example of her , give her a spectacular punishment , a lesson for all the other girls..that if you don't behave, you will die like her.
Now you want State to do the same to her killers, make an example of them, give them a spectacular punishment, a lesson for all the people, that if you don't behave, you will die like them.
Can you reason by analogy, make parallels ? I am not fucking asking for no fucking rocket science. posted by elpapacito at 9:15 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Dear angry athiests:
We get it, we get it. You hate religions. You think people who believe in gods are dumb. You think that anyone who believes in god and does something awful somehow shows a causal link between believing in god and doing awful things. You want to remind everyone of all these things at every opportunity.
We get it. You can shut up now.
Sincerely,
People who are generally cool with most people posted by 23skidoo at 9:17 AM on May 5, 2007 [13 favorites]
23 people killed in retaliation for killing this girl for converting to Islam ...
shhh ... there's no video and those deaths don't help people ride their political and cultural hobbyhorses as well as the girl's death does ... they're just not as sensational or useful
(and before anyone gets angry, the deafening silence about those 23 people speaks for itself ... no excuses accepted) posted by pyramid termite at 9:25 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
When we gather in a group in the street and kill someone for an affront to our collective sense of rightness, it's considered injustice and murder.
When we get together and agree to draft a law to codify our sense of rightness, and appoint other people to kill someone for breaking that law, it's considered justice and not "murder".
Seems to me to be a distinction without an effective difference. The former is more immediate and visceral while the latter is more deliberative, but the cause and effect are pretty much the same.
The only thing that gives the latter the cover of "legitimacy" is that a larger number of people have formally agreed on the circumstances under which the killing will take place, and a more deliberative system has been established to handle it. It's murder by proxy, where the proxy is a formally appointed agent of the people assigned the role of handling such things.
We may consider this to be a more "civilized" approach to killing people that violate our social norms, but to the person being killed, there's precious little difference.
Of course, if we're GOING to have majority-driven killings as a mode of exacting "justice", then I'd rather have a deliberative process than a mob process. But that's just picking the least of two evils, in my opinion. Seems like we really ought to be beyond havng to make this choice as a species, though... posted by darkstar at 9:47 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
When we get together and agree to draft a law to codify our sense of rightness, and appoint other people to kill someone for breaking that law, it's considered justice and not "murder".
Only in the US.
In most other parts of the world, it's still considered murder. posted by sour cream at 9:54 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Can we drop the "OMG this video is gratuitous and some day in the future my children will be totally desensitized to violence and then everything will be horrible" bit?
In the past, people lived with and accepted much more violence than in today's western societies. In fact, people in the west lived in societies more similar to the one depicted in the video. Cruelty to both people and animals was common and accepted, even seen as entertainment, and violent death was a common part of life.
Modern culture, mass media, etc., isn't desensitizing you, at least not much compared to the attitudes of more traditional societies. The video is there. Choose if you're going to watch it or not, then react appropriately. I watched it, and it actually doesn't contain any violence, but it's quite enlightening in seeing the attitudes of the people who committed the act.
Also, I think it's good to get a visceral feel for what's going on once in a while, even if it's an intensely negative thing. Get too removed from it, and people are numbers on a page. That disconnect is, IMO, much more a danger of modern society than desensitizing through exposure. posted by Joakim Ziegler at 9:58 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
State-sponsored capital punishment is not "murder" any more than imprisonment is kidnapping or fines are theft. It may be bad public policy, and it may be an immoral form of killing, but "murder" it ain't. posted by brain_drain at 10:04 AM on May 5, 2007
the deafening silence about those 23 people speaks for itself ... no excuses accepted
not my fucking responsibility pal. I had to speak against all the violence in this fallen world I'd never be able to put anything else to page. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:08 AM on May 5, 2007
posted by brain_drainState-sponsored capital punishment is not "murder" any more than imprisonment is kidnapping or fines are theft. It may be bad public policy, and it may be an immoral form of killing, but "murder" it ain't.
Sure it is. It's the longest, most drawn-out form of premeditated murder there is. The state gives the condemmed a last meal, a last phone call, a last statement, and then executes them. If that's not premeditated murder, I don't know what is. posted by fandango_matt at 10:10 AM on May 5, 2007
It may be bad public policy, and it may be an immoral form of killing, but "murder" it ain't.
In the end, "Murder" is what is in our hearts. If you regret doing it but see no other option, killing someone is not murder.
I came across the angle of analysis when considering the atomic bombings of Japan. If the pilots, people on those missions, and people here at home wanted to wipe out cities full of people, accomplishing the deed with hatred in our hearts, then it was a form of murder. To the extent it was the least shitty option available to us at that time, it was not. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:11 AM on May 5, 2007
this community has other standards
See, the thing is the "community" deciding the standards is not comprised of all of the people upon whom the standards will be imposed. To wit: it's largely men deciding what will be done to women.
It's this kind of patronizing, myopic thinking that makes people dislike liberals . . .
way to selectively misquote me, buddy. My full quote:
Of course this event was murder by our standards, and by human standards we liberals would like to see advanced in the world, but this community has other standards.
I am confused. What does the stoning of a young woman that fell in love have anything to do with someone who probably committed a crime and is sentenced of capital punishment?
What I'm wondering about is how a religion that, according to the Metafilter post, "has rejected dualism and, therefore, the ideas of sin and evil," can possibly countenance something like this. posted by nasreddin at 10:29 AM on May 5, 2007
1. I can cage Joe Innocent and make him suffer for a lot of time..but also can cage him for a while, notice I was wrong and repair somehow. I know, I can't give back the time spent in prison, but I can make the remaining time a lot better ..in a form of attempt to compensate.
2. If I kill Joe Innocent ...I can't do shit for him.
I am so glad that in our society, once people have served their time, they get accepted readily back into the fold, given all their legal rights, and are able to get a job easily and start living a full life again--a better life, even! posted by nasreddin at 10:32 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
You know, I don't care what those standards are. Either the people responsible are intrinsically sick and twisted, or their culture is - regardless, they are a detriment to humanity, and need to be put down. Having your culture be an excuse for your inhuman behavior went out with the Nazis, and with good reason.
er, the Nazis were basing their actions fully on your above, word for fucking word, at that.
You won't see me defending this bronze-age morality, or the typical islamic extremist reaction to it; I only think you've got to be very careful when one starts bringing violence into the situation.
These fuckers have got cell phones now, so they are becoming increasingly acculturated to norms outside & obviously above their own.
I used to have great faith in the superiority of social democratic liberalism to work as a force of global good, but I have to admit that Tien An Men, google kowtowing to the Central Party, the Bush Doctrine, 9/11 itself, have weakened this faith a bit. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:35 AM on May 5, 2007
2sheets: "There is no place in the 21st century for this shit."
Hell. This shit didn't belong in the first century. There's no place for this at all, and yet we humans found a way. We made room.
There's predators and there is prey. Organized religion, be it jewish or christian or muslim or what have you, turns individuals into a church body - a predator hellbent on survival. This can be a powerful beast. It can heal communities or it can destroy them.
Be it witch burnings or stonings, the intent is to detect an individual amongst the flock which does not belong, and expunge it as if it were a kidney stone. One can argue that led by the wrong 'shepherd', a church is nothing more than organized mob rule. A stampede of cows... or really big sheep.
We sit here most of us in non-third world countries. We feel ourselves above the fray. Imagine if the entire North American continent suddenly had to go without electricity, running water, and telephony simultaneously for a month. Imagine if for some unexplained reason, no car engines or generators or machines worked anymore. How long would we retain our sense of well-being in the face of that? How many days before society broke down to Lord Of The Flies time? And what would most human beings turn to for answers? Even some aetheists?
Take away your crutches and your comforts and your toys; a belief in some force greater than you is all you'd have left to make sense of it all. Well.. that and sex. ...and killing one another with blunt objects, I guess we'd still have that going for us. posted by ZachsMind at 10:37 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
What does the stoning of a young woman that fell in love have anything to do with someone who probably committed a crime and is sentenced of capital punishment?
This woman was murdered by a community still living under Old Testament-like moral standards.
To the extent we "put down" people because we hate them I think we have a moral failing, too.
The degree of failing is different, but the end is the same. One more life extinguished unnecessarily. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:41 AM on May 5, 2007
Capital punishment is barbaric. There is no place for it on this planet.
What is MORE barbaric in this case is what is viewed as THE CRIME and WHY (and WHO) they view as a criminal.
It's exclusively about how they view women. And they view women as sub-human and disposable. Women have no rights in these societies. And it is often LEGALLY codified as so. That is cold calculated barbarism at it's worst — not mere mob rule.
These people, yes that's right I said THESE PEOPLE, who still believe in bullshit 13th century values are fucking barbarians. It is not to be tolerated or compared to anything else.
Comparing THIS to the hypocrisies of western jurisprudence is idiotic and the worst form apologia. posted by tkchrist at 10:49 AM on May 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
she's still alive at the beginning, struggling on the ground and trying to shield her head. Until it gets hit with a big fuckin' cinder block.
She is still a she when hit with the cinder block. Sad to think a quicker death with the use of a cinder block may have been the only compassion expressed by a mob participant in this sadistic public murder/scapegoating.
The rationale, as it was expressed to me years go by a Kuwaiti woman, is that the males in a Muslim community feel entitled to kill a female who commits adultery or has relations with a forbidden male because her actions may contaminate the behavior of all the other women in the family or community. It usually would be the males of the girl's/woman's family who would be obliged by those rules to commit the murder
Presumably, this public stoning was a kind of warning to both Muslim males and females not to have relations with the Yezidi.
The girl's death reportedly led to the reprisal massacre of more than 20 Yazidi factory workers a couple of weeks later...she was stoned in the street by nearly two-thousand people, as confirmed by eyewitnesses, while police and army forces cordoned off the area and denied access to journalists.
This crime being made public and discussed, her being murdered publicly and the murder of other Yezidis, may save other Yezidi lives later.
I agree with the statement in the article quoted: Dua’s death and the subsequent retaliation against the Yezidi community are a reminder to all of us, as individuals and as a society, that we have to continue to fight against the violent and archaic mindset that sadly persists today...
That "archaic mindset" exists all over the world today in various styles and places. posted by nickyskye at 10:50 AM on May 5, 2007
Obviously, this is really horrible. It's horrible in Iraq. It's horrible in India. It's horrible in Germany. It's horrible in Turkey. It's horrible in Jordan. It's horrible in Denmark. It's horrible in Pakistan. It's horrible in Canada. But not all honor killings are are Islamic, and they are not rooted in any religious text.
"Honor crimes" originated in customary law that pre-dates Islam and Christianity. They span communities, religions, and countries, including Argentina, Bangladesh, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, Guatemala, India, Iran, Jordan, Lebanon, Pakistan, Palestine, Peru, Syria, Turkey, and Venezuela.
It's the way our propoganda teaches us to see things (if this was the 1950s, we'd be all LOLRUSSIANS), but I have to say I do get tired of LOLMUSLIMZ. Whether people are actually saying it, being sarcastic, or complaining about it like I am right now.
Religion is a scapegoat here, as deep misogyny is the first & foremost problem. Women around the world do not have the same value. Do the Muslim hate dance all you want, but the GENDER ATTITUDES of MEN is what is wrong. Men in many cultures do not respect the lives of women to be as valid as the lives of men. Their use of religion as an excuse to murder is a side issue. posted by miss lynnster at 11:00 AM on May 5, 2007 [23 favorites]
She is still a she when hit with the cinder block.
When I said "it" up there, nickyskye, I was referring to her head. As in, "...trying to shield her head, until [her head] got hit with," etc. posted by Gator at 11:03 AM on May 5, 2007
pyramid termitewrites"shhh ... there's no video and those deaths don't help people ride their political and cultural hobbyhorses as well as the girl's death does ... they're just not as sensational or useful"
Could you please be explicit about your meaning here? I don't understand what you've written here. posted by mr_roboto at 11:05 AM on May 5, 2007
OUTRAGEFILTER
Well, to be fair, there's outrage, and then there's this. This is a few orders of magnitude above mere outrage.
I have nothing further to add over and above what miss lynster has (again) so eloquently written. posted by psmealey at 11:11 AM on May 5, 2007
Pathetic laws! Based on nothing but a thought of [sic] belief.
Find me something, anything, that is not based on a thought or belief. posted by quonsar at 11:16 AM on May 5, 2007
miss lynnster: you are right, except you are ignoring the elephant in the room that misogyny is codified by their religious law, as I would like to point out, also is the case for Judaism and Christianity.
If you want to have a chicken-and-egg argument that's fine, but it is also irrelevant. There was surely a belief system of some kind in place in those regions before Islam or Christianity, and it of course is likely misogyny was a "feature" of those as well.
The point is that these backwards cultures have made this legitimate through, at the least, their religious law, and often in their civil law (of which there is often little difference).
So, you can strain at gnats and say "this isn't about religion!". That doesn't change jack squat about the actual circumstances.
Put another way, consider if the entire region were taken over by a profoundly charismatic Mormon evangelist. Do you think this would still be an issue? How many public stonings would occur if their belief system were totally replaced?
So, it's not about religion... it is about simple, primitive people that base the great majority of their entire existence around their religion.
I fail to see the difference except in a semantic sense. posted by Ynoxas at 11:18 AM on May 5, 2007
nickyskye: "the males in a Muslim community feel entitled to kill a female who commits adultery or has relations with a forbidden male because her actions may contaminate the behavior of all the other women in the family or community."
As I said before, the intent of a stoning is to detect an individual amongst the flock which does not belong, and expunge it as if it were a kidney stone. That's it. The church body sees itself as one thing and anything that doesn't support its worldview must be removed, lest the other parts of the Body become foreign invaders as well. How is this different from nationalism? It's a survival instinct.
I'm not condoning it by any means but until you understand why this sort of thing still happens, you have no way of stopping it. Until we can learn why there are still people, muslim or otherwise, who condone such behavior, we will never be able to communicate to them on a level they can understand, and this behavior WILL continue.
tkchrist: "Comparing THIS to the hypocrisies of western jurisprudence is idiotic and the worst form apologia."
Yeah. THAT attitude will get you REAL far with the extremist muslim communities. Good luck with that.
We compare it to what we understand. That's ONE step on a REAL LONG ROAD towards spreading civility the CORRECT way throughout the world. Then we try to understand what they understand, find common ground, and seek compromise and educational progress. There are things in their culture that we can learn from too.
You don't force democracy upon people with guns and violence. You SHOW them real democracy at work and why it's a more viable alternative. Then maybe they'll do the stoning thing a little less often over time.
Baby steps on a real fucking long road. That's what we have before us. It starts with understanding shit like this. Why it happens. Then we'll have a foothold from where we can climb. posted by ZachsMind at 11:21 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
The only reason this is even news is because it got on YouTube.
Then perhaps it's a good thing that it got on YouTube. posted by Mikey-San at 11:23 AM on May 5, 2007 [2 favorites]
(I'd + the above 3 comments like a lab rat in a crack experiment if I could) posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:38 AM on May 5, 2007
She is still a she when hit with the cinder block.
I believe the "it" in Gator's remark was referring to her head - not her status as a human being. posted by katillathehun at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2007
Religion is a scapegoat here, as deep misogyny is the first & foremost problem.
Each and every link you posted about honor killings involved people who are Muslim. I've never heard of a Christian, 20th century "honor" killing, though I wouldn't be surprised if some backwater Born-Again sects engaged in the practice at one time or another. But I've never seen any mention of "honor killing" where it didn't involve some religious fanaticism. posted by Civil_Disobedient at 11:40 AM on May 5, 2007
posted by Civil_DisobedientI've never heard of a Christian, 20th century "honor" killing
In this country it's called "Domestic Violence", "Spousal Abuse", and "Abortion Doctor Assassination." posted by fandango_matt at 11:44 AM on May 5, 2007
What reasons did YouTube give for taking it down? They seem to have an interesting track record of taking down anything that could be seen as negative to Muslims these days. posted by drstein at 11:48 AM on May 5, 2007
miss lynnster: you are right, except you are ignoring the elephant in the room that misogyny is codified by their religious law, as I would like to point out, also is the case for Judaism and Christianity.
Actually, no, I'm not ignoring that in the slightest. You will find that "Muslim law" is different in every country, in every community. In Saudi Arabia, women aren't allowed to drive. In Cairo & Turkey, women drive everywhere. In Egypt, 97% of women are circumcised at age 8 or so. In Saudi Arabia, that isn't the custom. In each case, it is "Muslim law" that has been told to the community by their MALE leaders for generations. There are NO WOMEN involved in these decisions.
The people believe their leaders when they say that the Quran believes in something. They do not believe that their leaders would wish any ill upon them, but that these powerful and holy MEN are just trying to guide everyone in the community to do what is right. Many people just assume that whatever their leaders say to do... must be supported by the Quran. However, many people are illiterate & their communicaction solely oral... so they have no idea what is in the Quran & what isn't. Sad fact is, even though I'm only a beginner with Arabic & my skills are super limited, I probably read the script better than many people in the middle east do.
So in the case of female circumcision in Egypt for example... it's not a new problem. They've tried to curb it. But the people are confused. They have been TRAINED to think that if they do not make their daughters "clean" that no man will want to marry them. And in Egypt, their daughters aren't exactly going to go out and run a corporation somewhere & make their own money. They are trying to do what they've been trained for generations is the right thing. Then when foreign people come in to tell people that your leaders are wrong, well... we've all seen how well that goes.
It isn't until the MEN IN THE COMMUNITIES declare women's right to be the same, until they change their edicts (For example: "Women should be allowed to feel sex, if they stray from you maybe it's because you're not a worthy husband.") that anything will change. It will take baby steps, unfortunately. But fortunately there are little victories and some people seem to be changing.
But I stand by my point. Misogyny is the problem here. Not religion in & of itself. It's what people USE religion, ANY RELIGION, to make excuses for. If the misogyny didn't exist, the excuses wouldn't be necessary. posted by miss lynnster at 11:57 AM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Point I'm making... when it comes to the chicken & the egg, since people say they've based "Muslim law" on things that aren't actually IN the Quran, it's a farce to blame the religion when obviously misogyny is what is fueling this. 30 years ago women in Egypt weren't even WEARING headscarves... none of this stuff was an ISSUE. Nobody rewrote the Quran since then. posted by miss lynnster at 12:00 PM on May 5, 2007
(this stuff = the headscarf thing, not honor killings).
Ok, off to lunch now. Must stop posting. posted by miss lynnster at 12:01 PM on May 5, 2007
In this country it's called "Domestic Violence", "Spousal Abuse", and "Abortion Doctor Assassination.".
What reasons did YouTube give for taking it down? They seem to have an interesting track record of taking down anything that could be seen as negative to Muslims these days.
posted by drstein at 1:48 PM on May 5
The entire western world does drstein.
The reason being that we are AFRAID of Muslims. So we bend over backwards not to offend them.
Comedy Central has no problem showing Jesus in any number of ridiculous absurd situations, but yet could not face the fear of reprisal by Muslims for just SHOWING a depiction of Mohammad. Note Fox also chickened out of showing a mere cartoon depiction of Mohammad.
And that's because there is good reason to be afraid.
If you offend Baptists, they might stage a boycott of your product (see Disney in the 80's and 90's).
If you offend Muslims, they will get on Al-Jazeera, and speak openly of holy jihad and how the streets will run red with the blood of the infidels. They also have a disturbingly frightening record of actually following through with these threats.
Even on MeFi, you can LOLXIANS all day, but once you say something disparaging about Muslims, defenders come out of the woodwork complaining about how "not all" Muslims are one way, and how it is "culture, not religion" and blah blah blah fucking blah.
The truth is in the west we are afraid of Muslims as a whole, and afraid of many Muslims as individuals, and probably for damn good reason.
Seriously, when was the last time the Catholic church beheaded someone?
And for the record, I do not dislike Muslims any more than I dislike any other religious devotee. I think Methodists and Mormons are just as goofy as Muslims. However, it's been a long time since there has been a Mormon suicide bombing.
And see, at least 80% of people just winced or got annoyed when I said that last line, because for all their protestations to the contrary, it is demonstrably clear that Islam is fundamentally different from practically every other established religion in the world.
As C_D alluded to, there are no "Honor Killings" for Presbyterians or Jews... and even if there were crazies who DID believe this, you certainly would never find an entire town standing around participating.
I hate these people in the video. There is not a single good person among them. I wish them all gone from the planet. They are a blight. A plague. A rot.
And anyone, Muslim or not, anywhere in the world who approves of their actions, the same goes for them.
There is no way to approve of this in any way. There is no justification. I DO NOT CARE IF THIS IS THEIR CULTURE OR THEIR RELIGION OR THEIR HOBBY. Whatever it is, defending it, even in the slightest way, is unforgivable. posted by Ynoxas at 12:22 PM on May 5, 2007 [3 favorites]
.
I have nothing else posted by LMGM at 12:29 PM on May 5, 2007
peacey wrote: Morelike 8 men and no stripping.
Looking at the fuller video, it's clear that the crowd has at least a hundred people in it. Not all of them get to hit her at once but at least two dozen people do hit, kick, or throw rocks at her in the course of the very short (5 minute) segment that you can find online. posted by lupus_yonderboy at 12:35 PM on May 5, 2007
ms lynnster, LOLMUSLIMZ is the jingo-rightwing gift that keeps on giving, people will never get tired of it. the Muslims are the new Soviets, plus they're brown and dress funny and worship a strange god and wear, like, turbans or something.
and they drive camels. that's comedy gold too. posted by matteo at 12:40 PM on May 5, 2007
Ynoxas: "What reasons did YouTube give for taking it down? They seem to have an interesting track record of taking down anything that could be seen as negative to Muslims these days.
posted by drstein at 1:48 PM on May 5
The entire western world does drstein.
The reason being that we are AFRAID of Muslims. So we bend over backwards not to offend them.
...."
Wow wow calm down dude, just start by making your country stop bombing and killing thousands of people, stop backing up apartheid in Palestine and dictatorial regimes in arab and muslim countries and ban death penalty. Then you can be outraged by all those bastard.
First this is has nothing to do with Islam, the same thing as lynching black people by KKK has nothing to do with christianity. So you can be outraged by these barbarian acts but don't jump on conclusion so fast, you americans should start use brain instead of your guts (thanks to Colbert).
but once you say something disparaging about Muslims
bullshit. I attack the failings of the modern-day Muslim culture when I see it, when it is called for.
The truth is in the west we are afraid of Muslims as a whole, and afraid of many Muslims as individuals, and probably for damn good reason.
I'm more afraid of us making the FUBAR'd situation with them worse through our own idiocies and shit-stirring.
Ynoxas: you know that the people in this video aren't muslim, right? That islamic radicals slaughtered 23 of these people like you desire. posted by Heywood Mogroot at 12:42 PM on May 5, 2007
Ynoxas, it is FUNDAMENTALISM that is the problem. It is EXTREMISM that is the problem. It is not all muslims.
I wish that differentiation could be made by people, but that would mean that things would have to be seen in a complex gray instead of black & white. And then it would be harder to just hate a whole group of people, it'd be a lot more work to figure out who's good & who's bad. It's easier to just lump them all together. Takes less work. Less education. More convenient sorting this way.
I have learned that violent Fundamentalist Muslims represent the average person in the much of the Middle East (& the average Muslim anywhere for that matter) just as accurately as I am represented by my Fundamentalist Christian siblings or George Bush. ie, not at all.
I've said this to people who then said, "Yes, but fundamentalist muslims kill people in the name of the religion so they're still responsible, they're not doing anything to stop it." Well, George Bush has killed a bunch of people in my name, but I'll be damned if he's listened to me much. And I've been somewhat vocal. But whatever. posted by miss lynnster at 12:46 PM on May 5, 2007
Might I add... people get so outraged in saying how violent these Muslims are. They ignore that most of the people killed by Muslim fundamentalists? ARE INNOCENT MUSLIMS. Who are NOT terrorists. And who aren't particularly fond of seeing their families blown apart. posted by miss lynnster at 12:54 PM on May 5, 2007
Ynoxas, drstein, the people doing this honor killing are Yezedi, not Muslims. Very different. Not to say there aren't honor killings in the name of Islam, but it's kind of like taking an article about the death of James Byrd and turning it into a discussion complaining about about how soft the Western media is on Robert Mugabe, or something. posted by schroedinger at 1:21 PM on May 5, 2007 [1 favorite]
Heywood Mogroot: Yes, I am aware of that, but due to my anger I'm not being very clear. I'm railing against religious barbarianism of any form in one breath and then railing against Islam in another. I apologize for that.
In my first post I was very careful not to mention Islam because although I know practically nothing about Yezidi/Yazidi, it does not appear to be Islam, although it has some of the same source materials and some influences.
My point is, if these people are Yezidi or Muslim or Christian or Zoroastrians or Greek Orthodox, they are barbaric, savages, primitives. They deserve scorn, not any modicum of accommodation or understanding. They are dirty, foul creatures, an abomination in any god's eye.
Again I stress, the particular religious banner they hold themselves under is completely irrelevant to me. They could claim to be Zen Buddhists or Pentecostal Church of God, and my reaction would be precisely the same.
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posted by bigmusic at 11:19 PM on May 4, 2007