One inch punch
August 3, 2007 7:18 PM Subscribe
One inch punch [slyt]
The single finger defense to the one-inch punch.
posted by Pastabagel at 7:38 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by Pastabagel at 7:38 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
My son enjoyed that, The Deej... Then he turned to me and said "Can I try that on your arm, mom?" I absent-mindedly said "okay" because I was already clicking on something else, and WHAM! he got me... So, thanks :P... Another thing, I noticed that the guy in the green shirt is referred to as a Wing Chun practioner. It would be so much cooler if it was called Wang Chung.
posted by amyms at 7:44 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by amyms at 7:44 PM on August 3, 2007
Everybody Wing Chun tonight.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:45 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:45 PM on August 3, 2007
Though you can certainly generate a a very respectable wallop with a one-inch punch -- most exhibitions I've seen of it accentuate the effect by placing the volunteer in a position that will send them tumbling with very little effort. That is to say: we're not tripods, we're bi-peds. Notice that the punch comes at a 90 degree angle to the line between the feet of the volunteer. Generally, he faces full front with legs spread. If you get one who leans in on one foot and anchors himself behind with the other -- it's still a simple matter of coming in at a 90 degree angle to THAT line.
posted by RavinDave at 7:51 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by RavinDave at 7:51 PM on August 3, 2007
Not very informative. The kung fu clips have almost nothing to do w/ wing chun short power and nobody interviewed explained how and why it works. It would be nice to demonstrate short power by clearing showing the rooting and motion of the legs...it's a series of levers that start at the ground with end result being being a whole body motion terminating in the fist.
It might also be nice to explain that people fly backwards when you punch directly into their center so the entire force of the punch must be absorbed rather than translated into rotational energy if you were to hit to either side of their center. Watching a person fly backwards is pretty cool but it's not exclusive to wing chun's short punch; any type of serious force directed into the exact top center of somebody's chest is likely to have the same effect. I say this having been on the receiving end of a one-inch punch demonstration. I was holding two phone books at the time.
For my money the most impressive wing chun demonstrations involve blindfolds.
posted by well_balanced at 7:52 PM on August 3, 2007
It might also be nice to explain that people fly backwards when you punch directly into their center so the entire force of the punch must be absorbed rather than translated into rotational energy if you were to hit to either side of their center. Watching a person fly backwards is pretty cool but it's not exclusive to wing chun's short punch; any type of serious force directed into the exact top center of somebody's chest is likely to have the same effect. I say this having been on the receiving end of a one-inch punch demonstration. I was holding two phone books at the time.
For my money the most impressive wing chun demonstrations involve blindfolds.
posted by well_balanced at 7:52 PM on August 3, 2007
Be aware, however, that if you hit somebody in the chest with this technique, you can possibly punch through, fatally injuring your target.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:53 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:53 PM on August 3, 2007
I hope tk shows up and drops some knowledge. That dude knows his shit.
posted by vronsky at 7:53 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by vronsky at 7:53 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh ... by the way. When I was taught the one-inch punch, it came with some neat advice on building up your forearms and strengthening your wrist. You need a broomstick, a piece of rope (4 feet, or so) and a weight. Doesn't even have to be a heavy one. Probably shouldn't be too heavy.
You thread the rope through the weight. You attached the other end of the rope to the middle of the broomstick (drill a hole). Then -- you grab the broomstick in both hands (palms-down; equidistant from the middle) and hold it straight out in front of you. Your arms are fully extended ... the weight is dangling a few inches above the floor ... now simply roll up the weight by turning one hand, then the other, etc. Keep those arms extended and straight. When you get the rope coiled all the way ... pause ... then lower it slowly back to the original position.
posted by RavinDave at 8:04 PM on August 3, 2007
You thread the rope through the weight. You attached the other end of the rope to the middle of the broomstick (drill a hole). Then -- you grab the broomstick in both hands (palms-down; equidistant from the middle) and hold it straight out in front of you. Your arms are fully extended ... the weight is dangling a few inches above the floor ... now simply roll up the weight by turning one hand, then the other, etc. Keep those arms extended and straight. When you get the rope coiled all the way ... pause ... then lower it slowly back to the original position.
posted by RavinDave at 8:04 PM on August 3, 2007
I love how the one instructor wasn't happy how the punch was portrayed in Kill Bill Vol. 2. I guess he didn't notice that the actors were also floating through the air at times as well.
posted by itchylick at 8:18 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by itchylick at 8:18 PM on August 3, 2007
Will Y? Cameron? Dr. Zee Lo? Never heard of ANY of these guys. So why not talk to living JKD grandmasters? People who actually TRAINED with Bruce Lee? Guys like Dan Inosanto, or Taky Kimura or James (or Rick) DeMille (both right down the street from me as I type this) who are easy enough to talk to...
Why dig up dig up these nobodies? I'll tell you why. Because they hardly DO any of that 1 inch punch stuff anymore. It was a big distraction.
A last name and a location would help. (And not some web address in the end credits.) Not having school names, locations and your last name when making claims about your knowledge of something "documentary", let alone things as contentious as martial arts and fighting, is very, very, bad.
Making claims about "bruising the hearts" and "rupturing the spleens" ...well... REEEEALLY. I wonder if any of those guys have ever knocked out even ONE game, trained, opponent out with this 'heart-bruising" punch? One that wasn't some skinny teenager student of theirs.
Then. Utilizing kung-fu movie footage... like Kill Bill does NOT help your case.
Yes. There is "short power." And (as far as the JKD approach) it has nothing what soever to do with "chi." Or Kung Fu for that matter.
All sorts of fighting systems have short power generation utilizing much of the same mechanics... from Judo to boxing. And there is no mystery. Slapping your hand on plywood like Uma Thurmon will do little to develop this kind of power.
Will it bruise hearts? Rupture spleens? I suppose if the dude just stands there like a moron and all the planets are aligned or something... it's possible. But that kind of claim just distorts the entire purpose of "short power" training. It's not to make it so you can burst a spleen from three inches away it's so you can generate explosive contraction and power with normal motion and range. There are a number of effective ways to train it. Flicking your wrist is NOT one of those ways.
The power comes from the explosive and simultaneous contraction of the hamstrings, "dropping" into the ground with the feet, rotation of the hips and trunk, and a twisting of the spine. Also there is the creating of a "platform" behind the punching arm by explosively flexing the latissimus dorsi. And ALL of that has to happen with proper skeletal alignment all the way from the knuckles, along the radius back into the shoulder socket down to the hip and into the big bones of the legs ending in the ground.
As a 20 year martial artist it's stuff like this that makes me a little crazy. It does more to propagate myths than it does help to explain or enlighten anyone.
I say this as somebody who HAS studied under JKD affiliates and has worked with guys like Insanto, and Rick Faye, Francis Fong and thier top students.
It must be stated:
I respect Bruce Lee for what he DID do. He was innovative and important to popularizing martial arts. He was scientific and was one of the first to use the athletic model in his approach (NOT chi ) to training. He trained very hard had certain undeniably advanced athletic attributes for 135lb guy...
But. Bruce Lee was not a bad ass. He never fought anyone of note, he was not a professional fighter, and was a child when he studied Wing Chun. Certainly not a "master" of anything.
What he was first and foremost was a very charismatic actor and a movie star promoting himself with a few nifty gimmicks.
Don't make too much out of it.
posted by tkchrist at 8:18 PM on August 3, 2007 [11 favorites]
Why dig up dig up these nobodies? I'll tell you why. Because they hardly DO any of that 1 inch punch stuff anymore. It was a big distraction.
A last name and a location would help. (And not some web address in the end credits.) Not having school names, locations and your last name when making claims about your knowledge of something "documentary", let alone things as contentious as martial arts and fighting, is very, very, bad.
Making claims about "bruising the hearts" and "rupturing the spleens" ...well... REEEEALLY. I wonder if any of those guys have ever knocked out even ONE game, trained, opponent out with this 'heart-bruising" punch? One that wasn't some skinny teenager student of theirs.
Then. Utilizing kung-fu movie footage... like Kill Bill does NOT help your case.
Yes. There is "short power." And (as far as the JKD approach) it has nothing what soever to do with "chi." Or Kung Fu for that matter.
All sorts of fighting systems have short power generation utilizing much of the same mechanics... from Judo to boxing. And there is no mystery. Slapping your hand on plywood like Uma Thurmon will do little to develop this kind of power.
Will it bruise hearts? Rupture spleens? I suppose if the dude just stands there like a moron and all the planets are aligned or something... it's possible. But that kind of claim just distorts the entire purpose of "short power" training. It's not to make it so you can burst a spleen from three inches away it's so you can generate explosive contraction and power with normal motion and range. There are a number of effective ways to train it. Flicking your wrist is NOT one of those ways.
The power comes from the explosive and simultaneous contraction of the hamstrings, "dropping" into the ground with the feet, rotation of the hips and trunk, and a twisting of the spine. Also there is the creating of a "platform" behind the punching arm by explosively flexing the latissimus dorsi. And ALL of that has to happen with proper skeletal alignment all the way from the knuckles, along the radius back into the shoulder socket down to the hip and into the big bones of the legs ending in the ground.
As a 20 year martial artist it's stuff like this that makes me a little crazy. It does more to propagate myths than it does help to explain or enlighten anyone.
I say this as somebody who HAS studied under JKD affiliates and has worked with guys like Insanto, and Rick Faye, Francis Fong and thier top students.
It must be stated:
I respect Bruce Lee for what he DID do. He was innovative and important to popularizing martial arts. He was scientific and was one of the first to use the athletic model in his approach (NOT chi ) to training. He trained very hard had certain undeniably advanced athletic attributes for 135lb guy...
But. Bruce Lee was not a bad ass. He never fought anyone of note, he was not a professional fighter, and was a child when he studied Wing Chun. Certainly not a "master" of anything.
What he was first and foremost was a very charismatic actor and a movie star promoting himself with a few nifty gimmicks.
Don't make too much out of it.
posted by tkchrist at 8:18 PM on August 3, 2007 [11 favorites]
My take* on this: while there's a lot to the "one inch punch", there's also a lot of hype, too.
First, the key is really about generating power with your whole body. From your feet, through the legs, hips, torso and arms and transferring it through the wrist into the punch. Use of gravity and body torque, etc.
So when the practitioner in that video focuses on the wrist action, that's important, but it's only one part of a lot of synergy in this technique. He's quite true in saying that an open palm strike could achieve similar power, because the "oomph" is coming through the whole body motion.
Second, most practitioners I've seen that imagine they can do this well are basically cheating doing one of two things: they draw back a few inches as they punch OR they follow through with what is basically a push.
Third, while it's a good idea to condition the wrist and the lower three knuckles on the fist, most martial arts teach, correctly, that the better punch emphasizes the first two knuckles. They are better aligned with the radius and ulna of the arm so are better able to impart force from the arm and are less likely to result in damage to the practitioner doing the punch. Furthermore, the first two knuckles are generally better at focusing force, rather than spreading it out across the lower three.
In the Wing Chun and JKD styles, the one-inch-punch is, in my opinion, less about a supernaturally penetrating punch, per se, and more about developing the conditioning and power generation techniques that are important to all aspects of the art.
As for Bruce Lee, there is so much idolatry of the guy in martial arts circles that it's about as easy to separate the wheat from the chaff as it is with Jesus Christ. TkChrist's comments strike about the right tone, imho.
[*Though I don't presume to be an expert of Wing Chun, I'm a kung fu instructor in another style. I've also co-owned a professional school and have specifically studied Wing Chun, as well as discussed the "one inch punch" with a number of WC and JKD students and instructors in the past.]
posted by darkstar at 8:38 PM on August 3, 2007
First, the key is really about generating power with your whole body. From your feet, through the legs, hips, torso and arms and transferring it through the wrist into the punch. Use of gravity and body torque, etc.
So when the practitioner in that video focuses on the wrist action, that's important, but it's only one part of a lot of synergy in this technique. He's quite true in saying that an open palm strike could achieve similar power, because the "oomph" is coming through the whole body motion.
Second, most practitioners I've seen that imagine they can do this well are basically cheating doing one of two things: they draw back a few inches as they punch OR they follow through with what is basically a push.
Third, while it's a good idea to condition the wrist and the lower three knuckles on the fist, most martial arts teach, correctly, that the better punch emphasizes the first two knuckles. They are better aligned with the radius and ulna of the arm so are better able to impart force from the arm and are less likely to result in damage to the practitioner doing the punch. Furthermore, the first two knuckles are generally better at focusing force, rather than spreading it out across the lower three.
In the Wing Chun and JKD styles, the one-inch-punch is, in my opinion, less about a supernaturally penetrating punch, per se, and more about developing the conditioning and power generation techniques that are important to all aspects of the art.
As for Bruce Lee, there is so much idolatry of the guy in martial arts circles that it's about as easy to separate the wheat from the chaff as it is with Jesus Christ. TkChrist's comments strike about the right tone, imho.
[*Though I don't presume to be an expert of Wing Chun, I'm a kung fu instructor in another style. I've also co-owned a professional school and have specifically studied Wing Chun, as well as discussed the "one inch punch" with a number of WC and JKD students and instructors in the past.]
posted by darkstar at 8:38 PM on August 3, 2007
Good insight from those of you who know your stuff. And, amy, that'll teach you to ever turn your back on a little boy. Gotta watch 'em every second.
My area of interest in all this is more along the lines of "Look at those cheesy karate movie clips!"
And, yeah, I almost titled the link One InchPush Punch. But that would not have brought me any closer to the hama7 minimalism I am so jealous of.
posted by The Deej at 8:46 PM on August 3, 2007
My area of interest in all this is more along the lines of "Look at those cheesy karate movie clips!"
And, yeah, I almost titled the link One Inch
posted by The Deej at 8:46 PM on August 3, 2007
When I was taught the one-inch punch, the hamster wasn't wearing any undergarments -- no diapers, no nothing.
It got messy.
But I no longer fear small rodents.
posted by uosuaq at 8:47 PM on August 3, 2007
It got messy.
But I no longer fear small rodents.
posted by uosuaq at 8:47 PM on August 3, 2007
I'm afraid I'm at a loss to remember Bruce Buffer announcing the winner of any UFC match with the phrase "winner, by ONE INCH PUNCH..."
Yeah, as tkchrist mentions, it's basically a stunt, though obviously one that requires a great deal of training to pull off.
I say this not as a martial artist, but as a former sideshow performer, who did things like inflating hot water bottles with my lungs till they burst, and breaking concrete blocks placed on a man's chest with a sledgehammer while he lay on a bed of nails. Certain physical stunts can be made to look more impressive than they really are. Couple that with a heavy dose of hype and you have a good sideshow act or martial arts demonstration.
The whole "chi energy" thing is paranormal bullshit and should be abandoned by rational people.
posted by Tube at 8:49 PM on August 3, 2007
Yeah, as tkchrist mentions, it's basically a stunt, though obviously one that requires a great deal of training to pull off.
I say this not as a martial artist, but as a former sideshow performer, who did things like inflating hot water bottles with my lungs till they burst, and breaking concrete blocks placed on a man's chest with a sledgehammer while he lay on a bed of nails. Certain physical stunts can be made to look more impressive than they really are. Couple that with a heavy dose of hype and you have a good sideshow act or martial arts demonstration.
The whole "chi energy" thing is paranormal bullshit and should be abandoned by rational people.
posted by Tube at 8:49 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh. The so called "internal" Chinese systems do seem to generate short power by the additional contraction of fascia tissue... or so I have seen studies show. This was thought to be next to impossible since there is no sympathetic nervous connection to the fascia? (or something... I am not a doctor... jack ass alert!).
Yet supposedly through some of the internal systems relaxation and breathing training, plus mindful repetition with "intent", one can learn to activate fascia contraction and there is proof it can be done. So you have this added power generation. How much? I dunno.
What practicality and trade-offs to that sort of training there are is arguable. But I have felt hits from an advance push hands guy (an older guy about 55 but he never claimed to be able to explode a spleen) that were very powerful for the kind of observable movement he was doing.
No more so than the readily observable gross motor boxers cross.
It may be possible that this sort of fascia contraction actually IS involved in other high level striking and nobody has ever noticed before.
posted by tkchrist at 8:49 PM on August 3, 2007
Yet supposedly through some of the internal systems relaxation and breathing training, plus mindful repetition with "intent", one can learn to activate fascia contraction and there is proof it can be done. So you have this added power generation. How much? I dunno.
What practicality and trade-offs to that sort of training there are is arguable. But I have felt hits from an advance push hands guy (an older guy about 55 but he never claimed to be able to explode a spleen) that were very powerful for the kind of observable movement he was doing.
No more so than the readily observable gross motor boxers cross.
It may be possible that this sort of fascia contraction actually IS involved in other high level striking and nobody has ever noticed before.
posted by tkchrist at 8:49 PM on August 3, 2007
But that would not have brought me any closer to the hama7 minimalism I am so jealous of.
Aren't we all.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:52 PM on August 3, 2007
Aren't we all.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:52 PM on August 3, 2007
"PAD OF BEANS"
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:01 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 9:01 PM on August 3, 2007
The whole "chi energy" thing is paranormal bullshit and should be abandoned by rational people.
Whoa! Does this by inference also mean that "there is no cabal"?
posted by humannaire at 9:01 PM on August 3, 2007
Whoa! Does this by inference also mean that "there is no cabal"?
posted by humannaire at 9:01 PM on August 3, 2007
Worth noting: Mystic chi/cabal or not, there is The Deej.
There has always been The Deej.
posted by humannaire at 9:03 PM on August 3, 2007
There has always been The Deej.
posted by humannaire at 9:03 PM on August 3, 2007
One more thing about Lee.
People have to remember what happened when he was alive. Martial Arts were still exotic. There wasn't a McDojo on every corner. No body KNEW what martial arts were. Even their own western arts were lost.
It used to be if you wanted to learn to fight empty hands in western countries you boxed and wrestled. It was very de-mystified from the start. Even way back in the days of Pankration in ancient Olympic Greece empty hand was more about ritual sport fighting. The techniques were centuries old and well worn. Not much was fetishized or hyped.
Though the Japanese (Jigoro Kano) made great efforts to popularize judo in the late 1800's and early 1900's (Mitsuyo Maeda came and wrestled Teddy Roosevelt) people immediately saw what worked in it and what didnt becuase the average guy still fought as a past time. The old catch wrestlers saw immediately the similarities in technique between the Asian systems and the western ones. However I think that becuase of WWI and WWII the Asian systems (and fighting in general) simply were pushed aside.
When servicemen came back from Japan after WWII they brought back Judo and Karate. But these guys were still largely boxers and wrestlers who added things from what they saw in the Asian systems. So as far as martial arts in America the tough guys back then were the Karate guys. And they usually practiced at Boxing gyms. And they usually boxed.
This is important to remember: In the 1960's Boxing became about black people. And the black athletes were kicking the white athletes asses. Then there was Ali.
When Bruce got popularin the early 1960s boxing gyms were growing rare in non-minority areas. Even wrestling was losing in popularity.
A small Chinese guy kicking big scary guys asses was VERY appealing to average white guys (and to minorities as well later in the 1970s). To them it was great to not have to go to scary minority gyms to learn to fight. And when you got there there was all this cool exotic jargon and not much that seemd obviously athletic.
To the average college educated white guy it looked like a victory of brain over brawn. And with the Vietnam War and all that was ALSO very appealing.
So the Chinese stuff seemed exciting and different. And with it, with the kung-fu movies, came all the cultural baggage, esthetic, and myths that kind of got mis-interpreted by guys who hadn't fought all that much.
So Bruce Lee was propelled by the times.
But the fact is human anatomy is limited. There are only so many ways to hurt it. Only so many ways to move. Only so many ways to fight. And it turns out you strip away the mumbo jumbo and lo and behold the western and eastern systems pretty much do the same things. But in the US in the late 1960 and, 70's and 80s people were doing the Asian systems and not actually really fighting anymore. It became kind of yuppie life style thing.
It wasn't until the early 1990's NHB and Vale Tudo — where people actually fought again in a cross pollinated open format that we saw the heart of what empty hand fighting used to really be. Minimal. No mysteries. Just hard training.
posted by tkchrist at 9:27 PM on August 3, 2007 [8 favorites]
People have to remember what happened when he was alive. Martial Arts were still exotic. There wasn't a McDojo on every corner. No body KNEW what martial arts were. Even their own western arts were lost.
It used to be if you wanted to learn to fight empty hands in western countries you boxed and wrestled. It was very de-mystified from the start. Even way back in the days of Pankration in ancient Olympic Greece empty hand was more about ritual sport fighting. The techniques were centuries old and well worn. Not much was fetishized or hyped.
Though the Japanese (Jigoro Kano) made great efforts to popularize judo in the late 1800's and early 1900's (Mitsuyo Maeda came and wrestled Teddy Roosevelt) people immediately saw what worked in it and what didnt becuase the average guy still fought as a past time. The old catch wrestlers saw immediately the similarities in technique between the Asian systems and the western ones. However I think that becuase of WWI and WWII the Asian systems (and fighting in general) simply were pushed aside.
When servicemen came back from Japan after WWII they brought back Judo and Karate. But these guys were still largely boxers and wrestlers who added things from what they saw in the Asian systems. So as far as martial arts in America the tough guys back then were the Karate guys. And they usually practiced at Boxing gyms. And they usually boxed.
This is important to remember: In the 1960's Boxing became about black people. And the black athletes were kicking the white athletes asses. Then there was Ali.
When Bruce got popularin the early 1960s boxing gyms were growing rare in non-minority areas. Even wrestling was losing in popularity.
A small Chinese guy kicking big scary guys asses was VERY appealing to average white guys (and to minorities as well later in the 1970s). To them it was great to not have to go to scary minority gyms to learn to fight. And when you got there there was all this cool exotic jargon and not much that seemd obviously athletic.
To the average college educated white guy it looked like a victory of brain over brawn. And with the Vietnam War and all that was ALSO very appealing.
So the Chinese stuff seemed exciting and different. And with it, with the kung-fu movies, came all the cultural baggage, esthetic, and myths that kind of got mis-interpreted by guys who hadn't fought all that much.
So Bruce Lee was propelled by the times.
But the fact is human anatomy is limited. There are only so many ways to hurt it. Only so many ways to move. Only so many ways to fight. And it turns out you strip away the mumbo jumbo and lo and behold the western and eastern systems pretty much do the same things. But in the US in the late 1960 and, 70's and 80s people were doing the Asian systems and not actually really fighting anymore. It became kind of yuppie life style thing.
It wasn't until the early 1990's NHB and Vale Tudo — where people actually fought again in a cross pollinated open format that we saw the heart of what empty hand fighting used to really be. Minimal. No mysteries. Just hard training.
posted by tkchrist at 9:27 PM on August 3, 2007 [8 favorites]
Oh deej I think it's a worthy topic.
But from another angle.
Do you know what "short power" training is called in another vernacular?
Core Training. You know the latest "rage" in strength training.
So it actually can be generalized to benefit a non-martial artist. In fact the kettle bell training, plyometrics, and compound weight lifting I would say is superior to conditioning explosive movement and core strength than many of the more traditional martial art-y kinds of ways. Though some of those old school ways got mighty close.
posted by tkchrist at 9:40 PM on August 3, 2007
But from another angle.
Do you know what "short power" training is called in another vernacular?
Core Training. You know the latest "rage" in strength training.
So it actually can be generalized to benefit a non-martial artist. In fact the kettle bell training, plyometrics, and compound weight lifting I would say is superior to conditioning explosive movement and core strength than many of the more traditional martial art-y kinds of ways. Though some of those old school ways got mighty close.
posted by tkchrist at 9:40 PM on August 3, 2007
I actually spent almost a week with my brother one summer learning how to do this. By the end of the week, I was actually moderately good at it. I could knock someone off their feet if I hit them in the right place (perpendicular to their balance). I also had bruises ALL OVER my arms and chest. Week well spent.
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 9:48 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by The Esteemed Doctor Bunsen Honeydew at 9:48 PM on August 3, 2007
I'd have to add to tkchrist's chronology the fact that Jimmy Woo, a chinese emigré to the US, opened his "Karate-Kung Fu" studio in El Monte in 1962. Woo predated Lee's popularity in the US by a few years.
Woo's style -- generically called San Soo -- is the style I teach and is essentially unchanged from Woo's instruction; we still use his materials.
I'd also note that San Soo does not emphasize "chi" or the theatrical wushu acrobatics. In tk's words, minimal, no mysteries, just lots of hard training.
It is, and always has, emphasized very practical techniques. As a result, San Soo practitioners cannot "compete", per se, because it's impossible to score points on an eye gouge or chopping to someone's throat or kneeing someone in the groin, for example.
Just to emphasize that there was instruction and practice in very practical martial (in the classic sense of the word) arts in the US predating Lee's ascendancy in American culture. At least, in El Monte, California. :)
posted by darkstar at 10:07 PM on August 3, 2007
Woo's style -- generically called San Soo -- is the style I teach and is essentially unchanged from Woo's instruction; we still use his materials.
I'd also note that San Soo does not emphasize "chi" or the theatrical wushu acrobatics. In tk's words, minimal, no mysteries, just lots of hard training.
It is, and always has, emphasized very practical techniques. As a result, San Soo practitioners cannot "compete", per se, because it's impossible to score points on an eye gouge or chopping to someone's throat or kneeing someone in the groin, for example.
Just to emphasize that there was instruction and practice in very practical martial (in the classic sense of the word) arts in the US predating Lee's ascendancy in American culture. At least, in El Monte, California. :)
posted by darkstar at 10:07 PM on August 3, 2007
When I was in college my roommate was into Akido. They gym that he went to was pretty hardcore and he was always injured from sparring (and he was a big guy).
Well, one day he started talking about 'chi' and decided to demonstrate it to me. So my roommate sits at the dining room table with a small strip of paper partially folded and resting on edge. He rubs his hands furiously and begins to concentrate. He slowly move his hands towards the paper and I'll be damned if the paper doesn't 'dance' away from his hands.
I always figured that he built up a static charge or some such thing with all that hand rubbing (was he doing a sock-carpet rub too?). I remain a skeptic, but wonder if anyone else has seen this particular demonstration.
I'm fairly certain that it wasn't a trick in the sense that 'roomie' really believed it was the chi.
posted by MotorNeuron at 10:27 PM on August 3, 2007
Well, one day he started talking about 'chi' and decided to demonstrate it to me. So my roommate sits at the dining room table with a small strip of paper partially folded and resting on edge. He rubs his hands furiously and begins to concentrate. He slowly move his hands towards the paper and I'll be damned if the paper doesn't 'dance' away from his hands.
I always figured that he built up a static charge or some such thing with all that hand rubbing (was he doing a sock-carpet rub too?). I remain a skeptic, but wonder if anyone else has seen this particular demonstration.
I'm fairly certain that it wasn't a trick in the sense that 'roomie' really believed it was the chi.
posted by MotorNeuron at 10:27 PM on August 3, 2007
I just don't think this guy had it in him to make an ass of me like that. Of course, if it's between that and chi.... heeeee haaaaw!
posted by MotorNeuron at 10:40 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by MotorNeuron at 10:40 PM on August 3, 2007
And, amy, that'll teach you to ever turn your back on a little boy.
He's not "little," he's an adolescent... And, damn, that hurt!
posted by amyms at 10:43 PM on August 3, 2007
He's not "little," he's an adolescent... And, damn, that hurt!
posted by amyms at 10:43 PM on August 3, 2007
Interesting commentary. I'm having to restrain myself from jumping in and saying something provocative because I got pretty disillusioned with all the martial arts I was aware of many years ago for the reasons that tkchrist and others mention. The distance between the mystique of martial arts and the reality is vast.
I've never watched UFC, but I've read about it. And what I've read validates my own experience that hand striking of any type is not terribly damaging. The bottom line of bare-handed fighting is wrestling someone into an indefensible position. That's (mostly) about body mass and offers little for small guys like me. And then there's the other direction—unrestrained killing/maiming/gouging moves that do much more damage than punching but people don't really "train" it because, well, most people aren't in the business of trying to kill or maim other people. Anyway, how much skill does it take to claw out someone's eye?
I'd be interested in hearing differing opinions, but it seems to me that if we're really talking about being dangerous, then it helps tremendously to be very large and, both along with that but especially in inverse proportion to it, it helps to simply be truly willing to be dangerous. That is to say, hurt or kill someone as quickly as possible by any means possible.
What do the world's militaries teach when they truly expect certain soldiers to engage in hand-to-hand? Do they even take that seriously?
I'll amend what I wrote a little bit. I expect that a lot of training in serious killing/maiming knife fighting would be the most useful form of skilled violence aside from or addition to skill with a gun. And carrying an appropriate knife all the time, of course.
Of course, there's much to be said for semi-ritualized less than lethal and less than maiming violent skill. That's the way that most teenage boys attempt to fight, for example. But it seems to me that there's no real answer for those teen boys who are smaller than average, like I was.
My dad was a famous and effective brawler, and a relatively small guy, too, but I think that he managed to get by on being extremely aggressive and having a very quick and powerful first punch. I did see him fight a few times when I was little, but I don't remember much. Then he outgrew the drinking and brawling. Otherwise, I've never really known anyone that wasn't at least average sized and athletic that consistently did well in street fighting.
I've never seen anyone use martial arts in street fighting. I've seen people try a few times. A guy tried to kick me once and I just stepped away from his kick and then hit him. I do vividly recall what the (in my memory) old Asian man said who taught a karate class when I was 8 in '72 when I asked him if he'd ever used karate in a real fight—no, no, he said. He would have killed someone. He seemed slightly shocked that I asked. I was more than a little disappointed.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:58 PM on August 3, 2007
I've never watched UFC, but I've read about it. And what I've read validates my own experience that hand striking of any type is not terribly damaging. The bottom line of bare-handed fighting is wrestling someone into an indefensible position. That's (mostly) about body mass and offers little for small guys like me. And then there's the other direction—unrestrained killing/maiming/gouging moves that do much more damage than punching but people don't really "train" it because, well, most people aren't in the business of trying to kill or maim other people. Anyway, how much skill does it take to claw out someone's eye?
I'd be interested in hearing differing opinions, but it seems to me that if we're really talking about being dangerous, then it helps tremendously to be very large and, both along with that but especially in inverse proportion to it, it helps to simply be truly willing to be dangerous. That is to say, hurt or kill someone as quickly as possible by any means possible.
What do the world's militaries teach when they truly expect certain soldiers to engage in hand-to-hand? Do they even take that seriously?
I'll amend what I wrote a little bit. I expect that a lot of training in serious killing/maiming knife fighting would be the most useful form of skilled violence aside from or addition to skill with a gun. And carrying an appropriate knife all the time, of course.
Of course, there's much to be said for semi-ritualized less than lethal and less than maiming violent skill. That's the way that most teenage boys attempt to fight, for example. But it seems to me that there's no real answer for those teen boys who are smaller than average, like I was.
My dad was a famous and effective brawler, and a relatively small guy, too, but I think that he managed to get by on being extremely aggressive and having a very quick and powerful first punch. I did see him fight a few times when I was little, but I don't remember much. Then he outgrew the drinking and brawling. Otherwise, I've never really known anyone that wasn't at least average sized and athletic that consistently did well in street fighting.
I've never seen anyone use martial arts in street fighting. I've seen people try a few times. A guy tried to kick me once and I just stepped away from his kick and then hit him. I do vividly recall what the (in my memory) old Asian man said who taught a karate class when I was 8 in '72 when I asked him if he'd ever used karate in a real fight—no, no, he said. He would have killed someone. He seemed slightly shocked that I asked. I was more than a little disappointed.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:58 PM on August 3, 2007
He's not "little," he's an adolescent... And, damn, that hurt!
posted by amyms
Believe me... no matter the age, we are all little boys.
posted by The Deej at 11:20 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by amyms
Believe me... no matter the age, we are all little boys.
posted by The Deej at 11:20 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh, and MotorNeuron, he made not have been trying to make an ass of you. There are a couple options other than that:
- He was doing an innocent trick.
- He may not have even known he was blowing. If he was "exerting energy" he could have been slowly exhaling through his nose. Randi has tested at least one person who was convinced he could move paper in by invisible energy, and the test subject was stunned that his power stopped working when a sheet of glass was placed between his face and the paper.
posted by The Deej at 11:35 PM on August 3, 2007
- He was doing an innocent trick.
- He may not have even known he was blowing. If he was "exerting energy" he could have been slowly exhaling through his nose. Randi has tested at least one person who was convinced he could move paper in by invisible energy, and the test subject was stunned that his power stopped working when a sheet of glass was placed between his face and the paper.
posted by The Deej at 11:35 PM on August 3, 2007
EB.
I know some small guys that are very tough. My BJJ coach, Brian Johnson, is 150lbs soaking wet. On the mat he routinely taps guys twice his size. But on "the street?" He used to do open weight class MMA matches. So. I don't doubt he could comport himself very well. But you are right. Aggression goes a long, long, way. And people who enjoy competing are obviously self selected to be aggressive. Willing to just up and go.
What do the world's militaries teach when they truly expect certain soldiers to engage in hand-to-hand? Do they even take that seriously?
There is every bit as much bullshit in Military H2H combatives as everywhere else. And no. The infantry does not take it all that seriously.
Brian's instructor, John Will (under Rigan Machado), is currently advising US Army Combatives and he is getting it from his own RBT curriculum. He also is a consultant for the FBI at Quantico.
What he teaches them is stripped down ground and pound MMA with eye pokes and groin strikes. Becuase they can train it safely at full speed. They don't do "forms." It's essentially learning a simple defensive posture you can use into one or two entries ("shell" cover, limb destructions, and crashing in to a clinch), how to take the back or a take down, a couple of chokes, an escape from the bottom, an arm bar and a leg lock. Removed is the MMA "submission" reflex. So far the few guys who have had to "use" it in Iraq seem to think it's effective.
Remember though. Army combatives always assumes the trainee is already at peak condition. So no time is spent conditioning or attribute building like in MA training.
Fights, combat, and self-defense are all different, though related, things. What will work well for you and I may not work so well for a 110 lb women in a sexual assault. What works in a battle field may not translate to civilian living where we have the "duty to retreat" and stricter laws and codes of behavior.
posted by tkchrist at 11:42 PM on August 3, 2007
I know some small guys that are very tough. My BJJ coach, Brian Johnson, is 150lbs soaking wet. On the mat he routinely taps guys twice his size. But on "the street?" He used to do open weight class MMA matches. So. I don't doubt he could comport himself very well. But you are right. Aggression goes a long, long, way. And people who enjoy competing are obviously self selected to be aggressive. Willing to just up and go.
What do the world's militaries teach when they truly expect certain soldiers to engage in hand-to-hand? Do they even take that seriously?
There is every bit as much bullshit in Military H2H combatives as everywhere else. And no. The infantry does not take it all that seriously.
Brian's instructor, John Will (under Rigan Machado), is currently advising US Army Combatives and he is getting it from his own RBT curriculum. He also is a consultant for the FBI at Quantico.
What he teaches them is stripped down ground and pound MMA with eye pokes and groin strikes. Becuase they can train it safely at full speed. They don't do "forms." It's essentially learning a simple defensive posture you can use into one or two entries ("shell" cover, limb destructions, and crashing in to a clinch), how to take the back or a take down, a couple of chokes, an escape from the bottom, an arm bar and a leg lock. Removed is the MMA "submission" reflex. So far the few guys who have had to "use" it in Iraq seem to think it's effective.
Remember though. Army combatives always assumes the trainee is already at peak condition. So no time is spent conditioning or attribute building like in MA training.
Fights, combat, and self-defense are all different, though related, things. What will work well for you and I may not work so well for a 110 lb women in a sexual assault. What works in a battle field may not translate to civilian living where we have the "duty to retreat" and stricter laws and codes of behavior.
posted by tkchrist at 11:42 PM on August 3, 2007
Whatever, I've developed a 1/2 inch punch that beats the the SHIT out of the 1 inch punch.
posted by shmegegge at 12:21 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 12:21 AM on August 4, 2007
Not very informative.
My thoughts exactly, well_balanced.
Movie clips? A young bloke with a double chin telling me what tiiime it is? Your post was was much better than the whole clip.
But not wanting to be a negative Nelly. Thanks for taking the time to post this, The Deej. I've learnt something.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 12:30 AM on August 4, 2007
My thoughts exactly, well_balanced.
Movie clips? A young bloke with a double chin telling me what tiiime it is? Your post was was much better than the whole clip.
But not wanting to be a negative Nelly. Thanks for taking the time to post this, The Deej. I've learnt something.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 12:30 AM on August 4, 2007
Awww shucks, yer welcome, hengeman. :) I just thought it was fun, and I knew there would be MeFites like tk and EB who could come along and teach us all something. Or should that be "school us"?
My daughter just watched it, and got really excited. "Do you think I could learn to do something like that?" She is 17 years old, 5'3" tall, and not even 100 lbs. You can see why the idea of such power would be appealing to her! :)
posted by The Deej at 12:44 AM on August 4, 2007
My daughter just watched it, and got really excited. "Do you think I could learn to do something like that?" She is 17 years old, 5'3" tall, and not even 100 lbs. You can see why the idea of such power would be appealing to her! :)
posted by The Deej at 12:44 AM on August 4, 2007
Ugh, darkstar... didn't mean to leave you out of the shoutout! Good info in your comments!
posted by The Deej at 12:46 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by The Deej at 12:46 AM on August 4, 2007
there's a lot of mythology about the one-inch punch, but in my opinion it is really trivially easy to learn.
I took wing chun for a year when I was in my early 20s, and I was NOT good at it. I mean, I really sucked. lol. But I got in fairly good shape from the circuit training, and I could knock someone who was braced holding a phone book to their chest back two or three feet with the one inch punch, even though I only weighed 130 pounds. It's just using a whole bunch of muscle groups in quick succession so they add up. Anyone can learn to do it, and in my experience, anyone who is predominantly high twitch muscle will be good enough to knock someone back a couple feet within minutes of learning it.
Not that it helped me the one time I was attacked (a random rocker vs. skater thing). I didn't even get a punch in, and I had to eat soup for a week & had two black eyes :(
posted by lastobelus at 12:57 AM on August 4, 2007
I took wing chun for a year when I was in my early 20s, and I was NOT good at it. I mean, I really sucked. lol. But I got in fairly good shape from the circuit training, and I could knock someone who was braced holding a phone book to their chest back two or three feet with the one inch punch, even though I only weighed 130 pounds. It's just using a whole bunch of muscle groups in quick succession so they add up. Anyone can learn to do it, and in my experience, anyone who is predominantly high twitch muscle will be good enough to knock someone back a couple feet within minutes of learning it.
Not that it helped me the one time I was attacked (a random rocker vs. skater thing). I didn't even get a punch in, and I had to eat soup for a week & had two black eyes :(
posted by lastobelus at 12:57 AM on August 4, 2007
A young bloke with a double chin telling me what tiiime it is? Your post was was much better than the whole clip.
Yeah wtf? If the inch-punch is so real and effective, how come I never see it being used in cage matches? It's sad that people want this whole energy punch thing to be true so badly they'll make 'documentaries' about it.
I mean, I believe in training your reflexes and muscle strength in order to maximize the amount of power you can get in a limited amount of distance, I just don't think we'll be seeing the Ha-Do-Ken anytime soon.
posted by Demogorgon at 1:03 AM on August 4, 2007
Yeah wtf? If the inch-punch is so real and effective, how come I never see it being used in cage matches? It's sad that people want this whole energy punch thing to be true so badly they'll make 'documentaries' about it.
I mean, I believe in training your reflexes and muscle strength in order to maximize the amount of power you can get in a limited amount of distance, I just don't think we'll be seeing the Ha-Do-Ken anytime soon.
posted by Demogorgon at 1:03 AM on August 4, 2007
I've got a BSc with a major in Biomechanics and my "major assignment" was the golf swing. Only because my assignment partner was a good golfer, BTW.
And I'm not surprised to read the same teaching points echoed above. A good golf shot starts at the lower legs (that why studs on a golf shoe are essential), then upper legs, trunk rotation (you have to be very lithe in that respect – show me one good golfer with a stiff back!), shoulders, upper arms, lower arms, and finally the wrists.
Golf is a prick of a sport to master.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:08 AM on August 4, 2007
And I'm not surprised to read the same teaching points echoed above. A good golf shot starts at the lower legs (that why studs on a golf shoe are essential), then upper legs, trunk rotation (you have to be very lithe in that respect – show me one good golfer with a stiff back!), shoulders, upper arms, lower arms, and finally the wrists.
Golf is a prick of a sport to master.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 1:08 AM on August 4, 2007
Until now I've never actually been grateful for my man boobs and their associated cleavage. Thank you, MetaFilter.
posted by St Urbain's Horseman at 1:31 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by St Urbain's Horseman at 1:31 AM on August 4, 2007
What if someone comes up with a quarter inch punch?
No! No, no, not one quarter! I said half! Nobody's comin' up with one quarter! Who punches in a quarter inch? You won't even get your enemies heart to burst... not even the goddamn spleen! One half is the key number here! Think about it! Half and Half! Half-ton trucks, half, man, that's the number! Half a pound of tuppenney rice, Half a pound of treacle, Mix it up and make it nice, Pop! goes the weasel! You know that old children's rhyme! It's like, you're dreaming about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby!
Step into my office! Because you're fuckin' fired!
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:46 AM on August 4, 2007
No! No, no, not one quarter! I said half! Nobody's comin' up with one quarter! Who punches in a quarter inch? You won't even get your enemies heart to burst... not even the goddamn spleen! One half is the key number here! Think about it! Half and Half! Half-ton trucks, half, man, that's the number! Half a pound of tuppenney rice, Half a pound of treacle, Mix it up and make it nice, Pop! goes the weasel! You know that old children's rhyme! It's like, you're dreaming about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby!
Step into my office! Because you're fuckin' fired!
posted by BrotherCaine at 1:46 AM on August 4, 2007
Five Finger Exploding Heart. Zero inches. Yep. Pretty much got that one mastered.
posted by The Deej at 2:10 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by The Deej at 2:10 AM on August 4, 2007
As a 20 year martial artist it's stuff like this that makes me a little crazy. It does more to propagate myths than it does help to explain or enlighten anyone.
Glad to see someone with a basic understanding of human anatomy tear into this horseshit. The fact is, it's not a "one inch punch" at all: there's the entire extension of the arm, twisting of the torso and pushing with the well-seated legs that all contribute. More like a "one inch push," except more concentrated than you're likely to encounter from the bully down the street.
Keep the mysticism out of the martial arts. I feel physically nauseous whenever I hear the word chi.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:10 AM on August 4, 2007
Glad to see someone with a basic understanding of human anatomy tear into this horseshit. The fact is, it's not a "one inch punch" at all: there's the entire extension of the arm, twisting of the torso and pushing with the well-seated legs that all contribute. More like a "one inch push," except more concentrated than you're likely to encounter from the bully down the street.
Keep the mysticism out of the martial arts. I feel physically nauseous whenever I hear the word chi.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:10 AM on August 4, 2007
Sean Connery can beat you up using only his thumb.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:07 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by kirkaracha at 9:07 AM on August 4, 2007
I remember back when I used to spar with people much, much better than me, watching someone trying to demonstrate a one-inch-punch type short technique. He carefully placed his feet, adjusted his hips, aligned his shoulders, placed his fingertips on the target, slowly closed his hand into a fist, narrowed his eyes, breathed slowly...
At which point the guy standing next to me, watching all this said, "So, this technique of yours, it requires your target to stand still for a pretty long time, huh?"
posted by quin at 10:14 AM on August 4, 2007
At which point the guy standing next to me, watching all this said, "So, this technique of yours, it requires your target to stand still for a pretty long time, huh?"
posted by quin at 10:14 AM on August 4, 2007
The "One inch punch" is crab. Have you ever seen it successfully applied in any No holds barred / ultimate fighting / vale tudo match? No? This answers the question. It is teh same with the other Wing Tsun / Ving Chung stuff like chain punching. Wing Tsung, especially in Europe, is a very aggressively marketed martial art style that does not hold up to it's pro misses. They don't have any track record in any mixed martial arts. The only thing they have are advertisement videos were a "blind" Wing Tsun practitioner knock down a willing/not moving target. Their grappling skills or what they claim is grappling is laughable too.
The only thing useful thing they have for the street (not for MMA!) is to kick against an incoming kick. I my opinion this is the reason why more traditional martial arts focus on lifting the knee very high before kicking. It makes it easier to kick over an defense kick.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 1:45 PM on August 4, 2007
The only thing useful thing they have for the street (not for MMA!) is to kick against an incoming kick. I my opinion this is the reason why more traditional martial arts focus on lifting the knee very high before kicking. It makes it easier to kick over an defense kick.
posted by yoyo_nyc at 1:45 PM on August 4, 2007
This one inch punch thing? Can it be applied to sexual technique?
I'm a lover, not a fighter.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:27 AM on August 5, 2007
I'm a lover, not a fighter.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:27 AM on August 5, 2007
This one inch punch thing? Can it be applied to sexual technique?
I'm a lover, not a fighter.
posted by PeterMcDermott
Well, sure, Peter. Just like in the fighting technique, if one inch is all you have to work with, just make the best of it.
posted by The Deej at 1:08 PM on August 5, 2007
I'm a lover, not a fighter.
posted by PeterMcDermott
Well, sure, Peter. Just like in the fighting technique, if one inch is all you have to work with, just make the best of it.
posted by The Deej at 1:08 PM on August 5, 2007
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