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The Great Melting Post
September 11, 2007 4:29 AM   Subscribe


 
Wasted in America
posted by Wolfdog at 4:36 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:37 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]




This thread is going to have a very high ratio of comments to actual click throughs.
posted by Wolfdog at 4:38 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


That's the last "America" link, chuckdarwin. :)
posted by Poolio at 4:39 AM on September 11, 2007


America's Player
posted by debralee at 4:39 AM on September 11, 2007


I added hover-over descriptions to all the links.
posted by Poolio at 4:39 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


That's the last "America" link, chuckdarwin. :)

Correction... it's the 2nd to last "America" link.
posted by Poolio at 4:40 AM on September 11, 2007


Why?
posted by c13 at 4:42 AM on September 11, 2007


In America
posted by lalex at 4:43 AM on September 11, 2007


Why?

September 11th, dude.
posted by Poolio at 4:43 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Wrathchild America.
The American Way.
posted by Wolfdog at 4:45 AM on September 11, 2007


Poolio, I think it bears repeating!
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:48 AM on September 11, 2007


Including two good Bowie links. Fine job.

(by the way)
posted by pracowity at 4:54 AM on September 11, 2007


I added hover-over descriptions to all the links.

Nice hovercraft!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:57 AM on September 11, 2007


Why?

Because 9/11 is the new July 4th.


posted by Avenger at 4:58 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


I added hover-over descriptions to all the links.

Good work. There is never an excuse for not having the hover to help us hoover up a hive of heavenly links.
posted by pracowity at 5:00 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm so bored with the U.S.A.
posted by yhbc at 5:01 AM on September 11, 2007


Looks like I messed up the hover-over for "America's Next Top Model"... it's Tyra acting batshitinsane.
posted by Poolio at 5:02 AM on September 11, 2007


In case anyone didn't guess/count, there are 50 links. :)
posted by Poolio at 5:05 AM on September 11, 2007


you are soooo clever.
posted by quonsar at 5:09 AM on September 11, 2007


This is Jingoistic nonsense.
Really - I'm pretty ashamed for you right now.

And god only knows why there are 50 links. Is that 1 link for every 13,100 Iraqis that have died in your so called War on Terror?
posted by seanyboy at 5:09 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Happy September 11th Everybody!
posted by Flashman at 5:12 AM on September 11, 2007 [6 favorites]


I'm going to get the grill out.
posted by pracowity at 5:13 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


Red, white and blue
gaze at your looking glass
you're not a child anymore
posted by bwg at 5:14 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


Jingoistic nonsense? LOL... I hope you're kidding.

And I don't think you need to be God to understand why there'd be 50 links in a post about America.
posted by Poolio at 5:14 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


WHY THE HELL WOULD THERE BE 50 LINKS IN A POST ABOUT AMERICA?
posted by seanyboy at 5:16 AM on September 11, 2007


WHY THE HELL WOULD THERE BE 50 STARS ON AN AMERICAN FLAG?
posted by Poolio at 5:18 AM on September 11, 2007 [6 favorites]



And I don't think you need to be God to understand why there'd be 50 links in a post about America.


The age of the country?

The number of countries it has invaded for its own financial benefit under the guise of 'a greater good'?

The difference in average wage between poor and middle class (x $1,000K)?
posted by Brockles at 5:19 AM on September 11, 2007


Sept. 11 has no business acting like a day for American pride. It is a day of American failure. I won't call it a beginning, as I reserve that for the day the Surpremes decided they could choose the President.

What are the fruits of 9-11? Wrongful war, constitutional violations, the President's capitulation to the demands of the terrorists, by withdrawing troops from Saudi Arabia.

Would make a lovely day to open impeachment debate though.
posted by Goofyy at 5:21 AM on September 11, 2007 [15 favorites]


Oh - I see.
It's the number of counties in your weird country.

You're right - there's absolutely no reason I didn't see that.
posted by seanyboy at 5:21 AM on September 11, 2007


Cool post, very clever.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:23 AM on September 11, 2007


Poolio. Oh Poolio. You worked so hard on this post. And yet... you forgot...

We're An American Band.

I mean, c'mon! Rock jingoism was never stupider than this!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:24 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


D'oh!

I definitely should've had that, flapjax.
posted by Poolio at 5:26 AM on September 11, 2007


Wait, I get it. This is like that list of uses of the word "fuck," right?

I can't wait until America becomes a word of power, like Muad'dib. Then we can blow shit up just by saying "America!"
posted by papercake at 5:27 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


I'm going to get the grill out.

Iraqis are already charred anyway
posted by matteo at 5:32 AM on September 11, 2007 [4 favorites]


Iraqis are already charred anyway

That's just freedom, well done.
posted by Poolio at 5:34 AM on September 11, 2007 [6 favorites]


God bless the united counties of remedial geography.
posted by ~ at 5:34 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


Amerika
posted by R. Mutt at 5:39 AM on September 11, 2007


I didn't include Rammstein's Amerika because of the spelling.
posted by Poolio at 5:41 AM on September 11, 2007


I give you...American As Fuck. A brilliant piece by a local (Charlottesville) guitar-cello duo. Tragically, lyrics only -- audio is not available.
posted by Deathalicious at 5:42 AM on September 11, 2007


S&G and Neil Diamond are the first two clips, so I really have nothing to complain about, but wouldn't it make more sense to post a song about each state?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 5:43 AM on September 11, 2007


S&G and Neil Diamond are the first two clips, so I really have nothing to complain about, but wouldn't it make more sense to post a song about each state?

There's still 15+ hours left and the day, and you haven't used up your post allotment yet. ;)
posted by Poolio at 5:44 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm so tired of America
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:46 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Honk if you like freedom.
posted by Otis at 5:46 AM on September 11, 2007


Alvy Ampersand, have you ever heard of Sufjan Stevens?
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:48 AM on September 11, 2007


LCD Soundsystem - North American Scum

We are North Americans!
posted by mrzer0 at 5:49 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Sept. 11 has no business acting like a day for American pride. It is a day of American failure.

Actually, I think this is an ideal way of reckoning 9/11. Ultimately, 9/11 marked a threshold for how America (or its leaders, at least) could have responded to a remarkably devastating incident. We could have become a member of the world community, integrated and understanding we were no longer separate from others. We could have opened up dialogue with the Muslim world, could have used the sympathy of other nations to change how America was viewed -- not as a world bully, but as a world leader. We could have responded to the attacks with grace and a little humility.

Instead, America America America America....
posted by Deathalicious at 5:52 AM on September 11, 2007 [9 favorites]


Crap!
posted by pracowity at 5:52 AM on September 11, 2007


"For me every day is an anniversary of Sept. 11," Giuliani said after reviewing emergency response equipment at the Pinellas Sheriff's Office with Attorney General Bill McCollum and Sheriff Jim Coats. "If we don't talk about Sept. 11, you can't prepare to try to avoid another Sept. 11." [St. Peterburg Times, 09/08/07]
posted by Poolio at 5:56 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Deathalicious, there was a crucial moment (when the US invaded Afghanistan) where the entire world supported America... even Japan.

This administration has not only squandered that support, they have spat in the face of every living person who shed a tear on that fateful day.
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:57 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


but wouldn't it make more sense to post a song about each state?

Capitol idea! I'll start with my home state, and, of course, what other choice is there, really, but:

Sweet Home Alabama...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:58 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm not calling it September 11th. It's Pagume 6th, 1999.
posted by MtDewd at 5:58 AM on September 11, 2007


Georgia On My Mind
posted by Poolio at 6:00 AM on September 11, 2007


What, no Lost in America?
posted by GrammarMoses at 6:02 AM on September 11, 2007


New York New York
posted by Poolio at 6:02 AM on September 11, 2007


These songs are all too short!

Monster / Suicide / America
Song For America

(I'm annoyed that the only way to link to a song is to find it on YouTube with some pointless overly compressed montage attached or for serious 9:30 minutes of footage of a flag YouTube is the worst thing to ever happen to the Internet.)
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:03 AM on September 11, 2007


Check the mirror, America.
posted by flabdablet at 6:03 AM on September 11, 2007


Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.
posted by Foosnark at 6:07 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


What a combo. The second song is America. Lemmy rules! Start at about 3:45 for the gold.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:08 AM on September 11, 2007


Cool post, very clever.

Seconded. It was worth it just for introducing me to that brilliant Fry & Laurie bit. And I feel abashed to confess it, but the chorus of that dumb Grand Funk Railroad song sends shivers up my spine to this day. America, fuck yeah!

/deliberate baiting of seanyboy and fellow frothers
posted by languagehat at 6:09 AM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


Hotel California
posted by Poolio at 6:10 AM on September 11, 2007


Bowie.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:14 AM on September 11, 2007


the chorus of that dumb Grand Funk Railroad song sends shivers up my spine to this day.

And how 'bout the afro on that drummer, huh?

Oh, and continuing with the states:

The Tennessee Waltz
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:15 AM on September 11, 2007


Private Idaho.
posted by pracowity at 6:15 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


zerobyproxy - Bowie.

Check out the "I'm Afraid of Americans" link. ;)
posted by Poolio at 6:18 AM on September 11, 2007


Ah Poolio, now I'm walking around work singing America, Fuck Yeah! Thanks, can you cover my bills for the next few months while I find a new job?

I kept watching the Frye & Laurie bit to decide if he was sporting a mullet; thankfully no.
posted by haunted by Leonard Cohen at 6:18 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Can we get a Europe post to go along with this one on November 11th plz?
posted by public at 6:21 AM on September 11, 2007


The Real American
posted by aftermarketradio at 6:21 AM on September 11, 2007


Come On! Feel The Illinoise!
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:23 AM on September 11, 2007


Ooo, my suggestion took!

North To Alaska
Jordan, Minnesota
Okie From Muskogee
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:24 AM on September 11, 2007


American't
posted by public at 6:25 AM on September 11, 2007


Yeah, I don't understand 9/11 as some sort of USAian Pride Day or something, but as long as we're posting for states, here's a self link to a (cover) song called Texas.
posted by 23skidoo at 6:26 AM on September 11, 2007




@poolio-- Rats. Missed it completely. Great post.
posted by zerobyproxy at 6:27 AM on September 11, 2007


I feel the need... the need for speed.
posted by Poolio at 6:32 AM on September 11, 2007


Romulus
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:33 AM on September 11, 2007


America (cover).
posted by saladin at 6:33 AM on September 11, 2007


I admire the amount of work that went into crafting this post, but Bin Laden is still alive and they're all still dead.
posted by spock at 6:35 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


I admire the amount of work that went into crafting this post, but Bin Laden is still alive and they're all still dead.

I searched for him on YouTube but I came up empty.
posted by Poolio at 6:38 AM on September 11, 2007 [7 favorites]


Amairuckuh we stahnd as wahahn.
posted by cog_nate at 6:39 AM on September 11, 2007


Meet Me In Montana
Iowa Stubborn
Chapel Hill [N.C.]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:39 AM on September 11, 2007


I think Ginsberg said it best.
posted by crawfishpopsicle at 6:41 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Jersey Girl
posted by Poolio at 6:43 AM on September 11, 2007


Montana (Zappa)
posted by Poolio at 6:45 AM on September 11, 2007


Dirty Water [MA]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:46 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm so bored with YouTube links to songs (as I can't watch them at work) but is there no Horse With No Name? Shouldn't there be?
posted by Myeral at 6:47 AM on September 11, 2007


Yay, it's YouTube!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:48 AM on September 11, 2007


Two things I read every September 11 since it happened:

The as-it-happened thread right here on the Blue.

And then I read this:

An incredible, personal essay by someone who was in Manhattan as it happened and her somewhat shell-shocked journey out of the city. Oddly moving in its dispassionate and detail-oriented style. I can imagine reacting the same way.

"Minutes pass, minutes we spend alternating between asking fervent questions and listening very hard. I meet a guy named Don. Don just came into the city via the PATH train, World Trade Center station. It's Don's birthday today. Don and I try to figure out what's going on outside. Don buttonholes a guard — where should we stand, what's the latest, where's everyone going, tell us what you know, tell us what you don't know, tell us anything at all. The guard doesn't know anything and has nothing to say. We walk over into the branch lobby, which has cleaner air. The mood is that there is no mood — null, flat. Everyone is instinctively clustering together in pairs and groups, some already knowing each other, some just meeting, and Don and I decide, without saying so out loud, to stay together — disaster "buddies," so to speak. Don has a soft-sided briefcase and a crisp business suit and a compact build, all of which project an air of neat, good-natured competence. Don laughs at my feeble gallows-humor jokes and responds with his own; Don looks like Blair Underwood a little bit, around the eyes. Don is, in short, pretty normal and nice, and I'd like him anyway, out in the world where we both used to live, so it seems like a good idea to stick with Don."
posted by tzikeh at 6:48 AM on September 11, 2007 [13 favorites]


I interrupt this thread to remind you that George Bush doesn't care about black people.
posted by Poolio at 6:49 AM on September 11, 2007


Bush and his Pet Goat on 9/11

/obligatory
posted by Poolio at 6:52 AM on September 11, 2007


ARMORICAARMORICAARMORICAARMORICAARMORICA
posted by brownpau at 6:55 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


I've been Rick rolled.
posted by Poolio at 7:01 AM on September 11, 2007


tzikeh: Word, as the kids used to say. Sarah Bunting is a terrific writer.
posted by GrammarMoses at 7:13 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm afraid of Americans
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 7:13 AM on September 11, 2007


This day sucks enough as it is. Poolio, I really enjoy your posts ordinarily, and normally your taste is unimpeachable, but this post on this day?

Not so much.
posted by psmealey at 7:14 AM on September 11, 2007


Check the FPP, Blazecock Pileon. :)
posted by Poolio at 7:14 AM on September 11, 2007


south america anyone?
posted by lapsang at 7:17 AM on September 11, 2007




Sister Christian
posted by thirteenkiller at 7:20 AM on September 11, 2007


I don't really know what to say, psmealey.

I specifically crafted this post for 9/11, thinking it was an interesting way to celebrate America's diversity. None of the links are jingoistic (except maybe "America, Fuck Yeah!" which is tongue in cheek) or anything.
posted by Poolio at 7:21 AM on September 11, 2007


It's probably just my issue, Poolio. I just don't feel like celebrating much of anything today.
posted by psmealey at 7:24 AM on September 11, 2007


Celebrate probably wasn't the best word, but anyways, I hear ya, psmealey.
posted by Poolio at 7:27 AM on September 11, 2007


God bless the united counties of remedial geography.
"I personally believe... that U.S. Americans are unable to do so... because...

"Uh... some people out there in our nation don't have maps...

"And... uh... I believe that our education, like such as in South Africa and... uh... the Iraq, everywhere, like, such as...

"And I believe that they should...

"Our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S... uh...

"Or, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries...

"So we will be able to build up our future... for our [children]." *
posted by ericb at 7:35 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


IMHO, today is a day to put aside jingoism and anger with the country's direction these last six years to appreciate what I have and mourn what was lost. Thanks for the thoughtful post, Poolio.
posted by coolhappysteve at 7:35 AM on September 11, 2007


Sam Kinison singing "Mississippi Queen"
posted by Poolio at 7:37 AM on September 11, 2007


I'm really glad Poolio's here to aggressive police the post every four or five comments. It's like a brilliant satire on post 9-11 US foreign policy. Kudos, sir!
posted by RokkitNite at 7:37 AM on September 11, 2007


...wouldn't it make more sense to post a song about each state?

And, for references check out this AskMe thread: How many other states have songs dedicated to them?
posted by ericb at 7:38 AM on September 11, 2007


Here's a great performance of Ohio by Neil Young.
posted by Poolio at 7:41 AM on September 11, 2007


Well put-together, Poolio.
posted by arcticwoman at 7:52 AM on September 11, 2007


moving into poetry: Riding the Elevator Into the Sky (Anne Sexton)
posted by amberglow at 7:53 AM on September 11, 2007


What the fuck?! Didn't we say that 9/11 would never happen again?! This is the 6th time we've failed to prevent it!
posted by shmegegge at 7:57 AM on September 11, 2007 [9 favorites]


At least 2 of the videos in the FPP contain Goatse-like imagery... I'm not saying which.
posted by Poolio at 7:58 AM on September 11, 2007


THE WTC!!!
posted by quonsar at 7:58 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


This is an interesting and well crafted post on any day. Don't let the calendar ruin it for you.
posted by rocket88 at 8:05 AM on September 11, 2007


Since Washington state has basically nothing, I offer Viva! Sea-Tac.

Oh, and the state rock song.
posted by dw at 8:07 AM on September 11, 2007


Miss Teen South Carolina :)
posted by Poolio at 8:11 AM on September 11, 2007


Back Home Again in Indiana
posted by CitizenD at 8:19 AM on September 11, 2007


How many times must a man look up
Before he can see the sky?
Yes, 'n' how many ears must one man have
Before he can hear people cry?
Yes, 'n' how many deaths will it take till he knows
That too many people have died?
The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind,
The answer is blowin' in the wind.
posted by tzikeh at 8:26 AM on September 11, 2007


Animaniacs - The 50 States Song
posted by nomisxid at 8:30 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


The United States of going on and on about yourselves all the time?

For shame.
posted by dydecker at 8:34 AM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


Belgium
posted by thirteenkiller at 8:39 AM on September 11, 2007


6 years ago, this might have been posted by someone who wasn't American.

At this very moment, it just seems trite. Kind of like you need to tap yourselves on the back because no one else will do it for you.

America the Great. Yeah, really.
posted by splice at 8:43 AM on September 11, 2007


Heyheyhey, I'm Canadian. I just like themed video packs and Marie Osmond in spangled western-wear.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:48 AM on September 11, 2007


Kentucky Rain
posted by Mcable at 8:53 AM on September 11, 2007


Great. I wear an old polo shirt with the US Capitol on it, and now I feel like I'm making some political statement. Bah.
posted by Atreides at 8:54 AM on September 11, 2007


I don't need your ghetto scenes

I don't need your war machines

I got more important things to do
than spend my time clickin' links for you
posted by blacklite at 8:55 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


I give you...American As Fuck. A brilliant piece by a local (Charlottesville) guitar-cello duo. Tragically, lyrics only -- audio is not available. - deathalicious

Hah, one of the members of that band is dating my housemate.
posted by cloeburner at 8:58 AM on September 11, 2007


The film 11'9"01 September 11: Ken Loach
posted by Mister Bijou at 9:00 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Awesome! Seeing an old Night Ranger video sure made my day better.

Uh, wait.. It also made me feel old.

Thanks, you turkey! :|

Another version of the "America! Fuck Yeah!" video from "Team America: World Police."

There are a few more on youtube as well.
posted by drstein at 9:13 AM on September 11, 2007


USA! USA! SUV! SUV!
posted by Floydd at 9:20 AM on September 11, 2007


[I hope self-linking in this instance is not a MefiCrime, esp. since the page (and parent site) is non-commercial.]

@papercake: I can't wait until America becomes a word of power, like Muad'dib. Then we can blow shit up just by saying "America!"

You don't say?
posted by mistersquid at 9:25 AM on September 11, 2007


I hope that some day, a long time from now, if I have kids, one of them will wake up one day and have breakfast, then maybe they'll go to their classes at the uni, have lunch, maybe take a nap or work out that afternoon. Then they'll meet friends out for dinner, throw back a few drinks, and then crash for the day.

And that day, finally, a September 11th will have passed that someone in my family will not have thought about the one day that changed all of our lives forever.

You know what that would mean? "Forever" just might start to change into something else. Someone, somewhere down the road just might start to live free of the hate and grief and total chaos that we were cast into on that quiet Tuesday morning.

But I doubt that will ever happen, at least not in my lifetime.

For the twenty some years of my life before 9/11/01, I could not, had you asked me, come up with such a scenario in my mind that could pan out like the last 6 years have. I mean, I would have speculated about nuclear war, or maybe some pandemic released maliciously on the human race, sure. I could have imagined the fallout, the war, the downward spiral into which our nation would have been plunged. But be that as it may, I could still not have imagined this.

There's a dearth of things I'm talking about here, and you know about all of them, but you make a subconscious decision, every day, to forget them. We all make this decision, because its something we have to do to at least feel OK with ourselves about living in a nation that is doing what America is doing right now. Sure, we can put on our defiant face and damn the man and cry foul and all of that, but at the end of the day, when you want your G&T, and your reality TV, and your feather bed, and your real estate and 401k and everything else that makes life so comfortable...at the end of that day, you have to choose to forget a whole shitload of stuff that nobody ever should have forgotten. But we have to forget them.

We all have to.

The ballooning national debt.

The American children dying, day after day, in a far-off land, in a country not uniquely responsible for our collective damage.

Torture being condoned as a means of information extraction.

The loss of rights afforded to us in the documents our founding fathers penned, with their own hands.

The twisted, sick, ugly fucking hate and disdain that so many of us have for so many of our fellow countrymen, because never before have so many believed they were so much more enlightened than the other half. Never before has America been so sickeningly proud, so blindly arrogant. And not America the nation. Each and every one of us. Every time we forget. Every time you forget. Every time I forget.

And in spite of all of this, or perhaps more likely - in rapture and girded zeal over all of this, the promulgator of the worst act of terrorism, ever, on our soil, remains at large, taunting us and devising even more hateful schemes. And his organization continues to receive the funding it needs to do the things they would wish upon us.

I didn't have the benefit of being part of our 'greatest' generation, but I sure as hell wish I could have been. That was a country that, once it got its shit together, it got shit done. We didn't go to Europe and have a years-long disaster. We went over there and stopped an entire nation hell-bent on destroying everything in its path. An entire nation.

The Pacific theater? Did it matter that the Japanese Navy dwarfed our fleet there when they struck our sleeping boys in the bay? No. We found the ingenuity, the grit, the drive, even after a bloody European theater, to do what was necessary - to find the threat, where it was, without ulterior motive, and to put a fucking stop to it, then and there.

My grandfather wouldn't have wished his days upon my brothers and I, but if he had to choose, he would wish us there, rather than where we are today. And I would thank him for that. Because he hasn't forgotten, he can see how different things are today.

We've become a nation of people that have forgotten. We've forgotten so much. We've forgotten who we were, and what we were once capable of. We've forgotten the basic values and principles that we were founded on. We've forgotten what being a nation really means. We've forgotten basic human dignity and a basic respect for each other.

And it wasn't by accident, like you would forget to take the trash out. It was on purpose - perhaps subconsciously, like forgetting the betrayal of a loved one, but forgotten by choice nonetheless.

And as long as we keep choosing to forget, even as we pretend to remind ourselves with OpEds in the Times and Yellow Ribbons on the bumpers and posts on community websites - as long as we choose to forget, its only going to make it that much harder to get to that day.

...

No one person can change the world. I doubt very much that we can right the path that our nation is now on. But I can wake up tomorrow and decide to do something nice for someone who doesn't deserve it. I could decide not to deride another person as somehow less of a human than me because of who he supports politically. I could live with a little less hate and a little more forgiveness for those who hate me.

And that is how we would get to that day, if we so chose to.

That day when a child of mine goes morning to night without ever having thought about 9/11, without feeling the stinging around the eyes and the sickness in the soul. But I know one thing: if that day ever comes, it won't be because they forgot.
posted by allkindsoftime at 9:30 AM on September 11, 2007 [15 favorites]


Colorado
posted by vorpal bunny at 9:32 AM on September 11, 2007


holy shit, mistersquid. that's... that's... beautiful.
posted by papercake at 9:33 AM on September 11, 2007


I don't know what you were trying to acomplish with this post. At first I thought it might be some inappropriate satire but that doesn't seem to be the case. Maybe it's just your wacky way of trying to commemorate a day that many of us want to forget.

Either way - this post makes me sick and angry. It's not cute. It's not funny. And it's definitely nothing to be proud of.
posted by photoslob at 9:36 AM on September 11, 2007


I couldn't find any youtubey or free audio goodness, but here are the lyrics to Bree Sharp's America.
posted by LiliaNic at 9:40 AM on September 11, 2007


Photoslob, why do you hate America?
posted by eyeballkid at 9:43 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


GET OVER IT, AMERICA.
posted by davy at 9:50 AM on September 11, 2007


John Linnell's State Songs.
posted by McLir at 9:50 AM on September 11, 2007


Thank you, allkindsoftime... Yes, like that.
posted by emmet at 10:18 AM on September 11, 2007


Iraqis are already charred anyway

That's just freedom, well done.



BUWHAHAHAHAHAHA
Good one Poolio.
posted by a3matrix at 10:21 AM on September 11, 2007


I didn't have the benefit of being part of our 'greatest' generation, but I sure as hell wish I could have been. That was a country that, once it got its shit together, it got shit done. We didn't go to Europe and have a years-long disaster. We went over there and stopped an entire nation hell-bent on destroying everything in its path. An entire nation.

You're right, allkindsoftime, defence spending doesn't get spent in the places it used to in the good, old days.

posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 10:30 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


Remember the Maine!
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 10:33 AM on September 11, 2007


I think this post rocks!

Happy 9/11 everybody!
posted by MythMaker at 10:37 AM on September 11, 2007


“Go back to bed, America, your government has figured out how it all transpired.
Go back to bed America, your government is in control.
Here, here’s American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up, go back to bed America,here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it!
Watch these pituitary retards bang their fucking skulls together and congratulate you on the living in the land of freedom. Here you go America - you are free to do what well tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!” — Bill Hicks

posted by anthill at 10:47 AM on September 11, 2007 [4 favorites]


here is American Gladiators, here is 56 channels of it!

They're actually bringing back American Gladiators (perhaps the longest steroids ad ever broadcast)
posted by amberglow at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2007


Um, don't you mean "United States of America"? I mean, unless you're counting Canada and Mexico.
posted by DenOfSizer at 10:53 AM on September 11, 2007


Wisconsin Death Trip.
posted by quin at 10:58 AM on September 11, 2007


AMERICA IS WONDERFUL! Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, etc, etc.
posted by Dr-Baa at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2007


DenOfSizer writes "Um, don't you mean 'United States of America'? I mean, unless you're counting Canada and Mexico."

They'll all be part of America soon enough. You thought manifest destiny was over?
posted by mullingitover at 11:03 AM on September 11, 2007




King and Queen of America
posted by ooga_booga at 11:49 AM on September 11, 2007


Gimme More
posted by thirteenkiller at 11:51 AM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


America is not the world.
posted by InnocentBystander at 12:02 PM on September 11, 2007


I'm still working on a post with a link to a 9/11 Conspiracy site for every life lost at the WTC. In the meantime, good work Poolio, America may or may not e proud of you.

BTW, I heard a bill has just been introduced in Congress to officially move 9/11 to the second Monday in September.
posted by wendell at 12:04 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


United States of Whatever
posted by birdherder at 12:13 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


And then there's 9/11/1973.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:15 PM on September 11, 2007


God save the queen.
posted by maxwelton at 12:20 PM on September 11, 2007


america prince
posted by baker dave at 12:57 PM on September 11, 2007


United States of Whatever

United States of NOOOOOOOOoooo!
posted by sparkletone at 12:57 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


god fuck the queen!
posted by baker dave at 12:58 PM on September 11, 2007


Did it matter that the Japanese Navy dwarfed our fleet there when they struck our sleeping boys in the bay?

According to Wikipedia, the US fleet at Pearl Habor was 8 battleships, 8 cruisers, 29 destroyers, 9 submarines, ~50 other ships, and ~390 aircraft (the three American carriers in the Pacific were elsewhere); the attacking Japanese fleet was 6 aircraft carriers, 9 destroyers, 2 battleships, 2 heavy cruisers, 1 light cruiser, 8 tankers, 23 fleet submarines, 5 midget submarines, and 414 aircraft.

posted by kirkaracha at 1:27 PM on September 11, 2007


This post is like this guy I know. He's an American, but all he does is go on about how bad America is, how he is ashamed of America, how he grew up in Indiana and there were so many rednecks there, the food is his country is so bad, people are fat, etc. He thinks this is what his foreign friends want to hear - we are supposed to be enraptured by all this talk of America, which is such an important place obv.

Hate to break it to you, but we are not. Hate America, love America, either way there is a vast proportion of humanity who couldn't care less.
posted by dydecker at 1:31 PM on September 11, 2007


...either way there is a vast proportion of humanity who couldn't care less.

We're not running out of bombs anytime soon.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 1:43 PM on September 11, 2007


either way there is a vast proportion of humanity who couldn't care less.

As it should be. Saying you're proud to be an American when your citizenship is an accident of birth is about on the same level as the things that guy says.

A lot of Americans seem to think that the actions of their government divulge some deep truths about them as individuals. Most people I have met abroad know better, that we're all mostly pawns in this absurd game. Not to say that Americans don't have annoying cultural/stereotypical characteristics that make us about as welcome in some countries as the Germans, French, Japanese, Chinese, etc., but much of the rest of the world does not labor under the assumption that American foreign policy is an extension of the will of its people.
posted by psmealey at 2:01 PM on September 11, 2007 [4 favorites]


This day, what it means, and the way this country responded to 9/11 has made me want to crawl into a hole for a number of years now..

There's nothing to be proud of, nothing that we've done right, nothing that doesn't bring shame to us..

I didn't need this post..
posted by HuronBob at 2:03 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


And in response to the actual content:

Naww, "Somewhere Out There" from An American Tail sure tugs at the heartstrings. I think it's the squeaky high note that does it.
posted by honeydew at 2:15 PM on September 11, 2007


sorry, but i just had to throw a paper plane at this post.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:47 PM on September 11, 2007


What the FUCK is the matter with you people? (and you know who you are...) You're soooooo very clever with your cheap sarcasm and pseudo-intellectual drivel. Does the thought of 2,000-plus PEOPLE in those towers make you think, "well, the unlucky bastards--America is not the world, and Americans are Americans by circumstance, the fire fighters should have chosen a different profession, and 'Get over it, America'." Maybe you SHOULD "forget" about this day. Tell it to the survivors. Tell it to the heroes. I am most likely violating a sacred rule by posting this; I am relatively new to Metafilter, but I am getting bored with the "my sarcastic one-liner was better than yours" type of comment, at the over-all expense of this tragedy.
posted by wafaa at 3:00 PM on September 11, 2007


poolio, thanks for the post, and tzikeh, thanks for the Dylan.
posted by wafaa at 3:06 PM on September 11, 2007


wafaa, the shit done in the name of 9/11 by our govt -- and still being done to us and to other places -- including the destruction of an entire country that wasn't involved -- has made many of us angry and unwilling to sit still and "remember politely" something that is shoved in our faces every single day and has been used for such evil purposes. Allowing this to become a quasi-religious holiday, and seeing it continually being used as full justification for war crimes and other crimes -- including the vast diminution of our rights and freedoms (you know, the very freedoms Osama "hates", they say)-- tends to make people "clever with cheap sarcasm" and stuff.
posted by amberglow at 3:39 PM on September 11, 2007 [4 favorites]


hey, there's still time to catch Sean Hannity's 9/11 "Freedom Concert" at Six Flags with Ollie North, Ann Coulter and Rudy Giuliani (maybe Coulter will insult the widows some more, all in the name of 9/11)
posted by amberglow at 3:45 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


(Lieberman will be joining them too--what fun!)
posted by amberglow at 3:45 PM on September 11, 2007


wafaa, what amberglow said.

add to that the fact that i'm not american, and, well, it was only a drop in the ocean in the grand scheme of things.

20,000 people die every day from easily preventable diseases, malnutrition, lack of clean drinking water and all, so yeh, big personal tragedy for the families directly involved in 9/11, but blown out of all proportion for everybody else in america, and in the world generally.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:47 PM on September 11, 2007


Thanks, amberglow.... well said....
posted by HuronBob at 3:52 PM on September 11, 2007


I agree with most of what you are saying, amberglow. I don't like what's happening. I don't like Dubya. I'm not stupid enough to believe they're doing it in the name of 9/11. They want the people to suck into that; it doesn't mean it's true or that everyone is going to buy that propaganda. But for God's sake, bringing up charred Iraqis, and others' jumping on that comment, well, it's disrespectful and childish. IMHO.
posted by wafaa at 4:02 PM on September 11, 2007


For me, it's not about pride in our country, it's about remembrance. I'm done chatting now.
posted by wafaa at 4:11 PM on September 11, 2007



America took the initiative in creating the internet.

All you h8ers: log off immediately.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 4:23 PM on September 11, 2007


Poolio's post says nothing. There's no unifying theme. No hidden comment about American foreign policy and no direct correlation to the attacks in NY on 9/11/01, except for the date stamp near his name.

The post is a collection of views on America. Some of them celebratory some of them scathing, some of them absurd (and in the case of "America" and "American Tune" by Paul Simon two opposing opinions from the same source.)

This post is what you read into it, which is its genius. You can look at it as a collection of eclectic links attempting to describe whatever the fuck "America" means, or you can narrow it down to whatever tunnel of vision you've honed in on since that day "everything changed."

Me, I just like the chance to watch Paul sing "American Tune." That song always stops me in my tracks.
posted by eyeballkid at 4:26 PM on September 11, 2007 [6 favorites]


those of us who live here in NY remember every single time we look downtown and don't see those ugly towers that were visible for 30 years, wafaa. we will never forget anything -- from the taste of the air, to the doctors and nurses all over waiting for casualties that never came, to standing on the westside highway to cheer people going down to dig, to all those flyers all over for people who were pulverized, etc.

No one anywhere is in danger of forgetting anything--but that's that's not what this day has become, and what the tragedy itself has been used for--it's those uses and misuses that are preeminent now because of the continuing horrors and damage--not inflicted by those planes, but by our own government. The fact that Petreaus spent all of 9/11 in front of Congress--about Iraq!--is just another smack to remembrance.
posted by amberglow at 4:28 PM on September 11, 2007


Wafaa, it's not just US foreign policy that invites people to feel more contempt for the US-as-a-society than they would feel for most individual USians.

You guys shoot ten times as many of your own people to death every year as those pricks in planes managed once. The indisputable fact that the deaths of 3000 people on 9/11/2001 is a minor statistical blip in the US violent death rate - that's the real tragedy.

The simple fact is that terrorism from outside is a very very small problem for you, compared to the problems the US has constructed for itself internally. And your collective response to the worst act of terrorism ever committed on your soil - bombing the crap out of any soft target you could get planes to, regardless of where the 9/11 crew actually, you know, came from, and regardless of how many innocent people got killed in the process - has made that problem bigger, not smaller, for all of us.

You also incarcerate a far greater percentage of your own people than any other democracy.

So when USians bang on endlessly, as they are wont to do, about the US as a defender of life and liberty, the natural tendency is to go yeah right.

Allowing - nay, encouraging - your Government to curtail your civil rights and worsen your international reputation in order to "protect you from terrorism" is beyond stupid, and treating 9/11 as an occasion for a display of US jingoism is beyond obscene.
posted by flabdablet at 4:53 PM on September 11, 2007 [6 favorites]


bringing up charred Iraqis, and others' jumping on that comment, well, it's disrespectful and childish

Tell it to the President Bush, who blurs the distinction between "Al Qaeda" and "Al Qaeda in Iraq" and says that car bombings in Iraq are done by "the very same folks that attacked us on September the 11th."

Who also squandered the worldwide support of the Untied States after the attacks, taking world opinion from "We are all Americans" to increasing distrust and disapproval. NATO countries viewed the September 11 attacks on the United States as an attack on all of NATO. A year and a day later, President Bush said the UN was irrelevant.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:54 PM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


Thank you for adding the hover over link descriptions. I didn't click on the links, but looking at the little baloons was great fun.

American Tune by Paul Simon is a fine song. But I just listened to it a couple weeks ago. Otherwise I would definitely have clicked on that one.
posted by bukvich at 5:04 PM on September 11, 2007


Metafilter: I didn't click on the links, but looking at the little baloons was great fun.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:24 PM on September 11, 2007 [1 favorite]


this is dc.
posted by psmom at 5:39 PM on September 11, 2007


This is a great thread! Most enjoyable. Everyone agreeing to disagree. The discord is healthy.

It is possible to hold all the thoughts in your head at the same time and not go mad. Ignoring 99% of what is going on around us is what allows cities to exist.

On Sunday Channel4 showed a program about the Two Towers followed by the film The Twin Towers. A sign of the times, like this thread?

Kids in America
posted by asok at 5:48 PM on September 11, 2007


On a break, I went to get cigarettes and passed a firehouse on 12th street. They were playing funereal bagpipes. I took my hat off and watched for a bit.

This war and all the needless death and destruction it's caused is something of a slap in the face to scrifices those bagpipes were commemorate.
posted by jonmc at 5:49 PM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


Absolutely agreed. And the way that war has been used for political and/or commercial advantage is not only a slap in the face, but a pants-off wet fart showering the entire head.
posted by flabdablet at 5:53 PM on September 11, 2007




flabdablet: yeah, but I still won't make light of what happened that day. A close friend of mine was a paramedic in Manhattan back then. I visited him not long after. He took me on a tour of his stationhouse and showed me the plaques of the guys his unit lost. He showed me a tube of the stuff they gave him to put under his nose when he was assigned to do a 24-hour shift going through the rubble, so he could handle the smell of the gas given off by the bodies. So, I'm still angry at the Al Qaedas of the world, and I'm angry at the Bush administration for pissing away a chance to actually do something about it and for causing more needless death instead.
posted by jonmc at 6:03 PM on September 11, 2007


Thank you, Poolio. I can't imagine how much work went into this.

I was there, living in Manhattan, 6 years ago. I'm not going to rehash my experiences, but if anyone's honestly interested, they can see them here.

I've voted against Bush twice, because I truly believe there's no one worse for the job of President of the United States. Every part of his foreign policy has been self-serving and evil. He took a moment of worldwide support for my country and warped it to fit his own agenda, squandering the best chance we've ever had to promote an international message of peace. There's nothing to be proud about in that.

Still, I'm an American, and George W. Bush doesn't get to ruin that for me. I'm still fairly young, but in my time I've lived in Texas, Oklahoma, California, New York, Colorado, and now D.C. and almost everybody I've gotten to know here has been a good person, trying to do what's best for themselves and their families and keep a sense of fun and humor along the way. It's possible to hate the state of race relations and gay rights and what have you and still appreciate the music, and the oportunities, the front porches and stoops and the neighbors. Hell, it's possible to hate the state of race relations and gay rights and still celebrate in some form just how far we've come with them, and how many people are still in the fight. It's possible to hate the car culture and still wax nostalgic on the great American road-trip. And it's certainly possible for me to hate our current policies and still resent the hell out of people who would distill the entirety of the people in this huge country to where those politics currently stand.

If you're an American MeFite, chances are you were looking for a post to mark the occasion today, and that Martin Amis's linguistic masturbation on the subject wasn't going to cut it. This is how I like to think of my flawed, stumbling nation with it's flashes of brilliance: Paul Simon and Ray Charles, Tyra Banks and Parker & Stone, Don McLean and Jason Biggs fucking a pastry.

This all reminded me of the late, great Molly Ivins, who knew better than any of us how fucked-up the system is, but found life, love and laughs in the midst of fighting for it anyway.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:26 PM on September 11, 2007 [8 favorites]


It is possible to hold all the thoughts in your head at the same time and not go mad.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function"

- F. Scott Fitzgerald
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:02 PM on September 11, 2007


Hah, one of the members of that band is dating my housemate.

So...you are either living with Sara, or Brandon finally has a girlfriend?
posted by Deathalicious at 7:03 PM on September 11, 2007


I woke up today and thought that the internet was as dumb as it was ever going to get. But then I saw this post and realized that the internet is still getting dumber.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:15 PM on September 11, 2007


jonmc: I wouldn't for a moment suggest that anyone ought to make light of three thousand people dying by violence on the same day.

What I find baffling and weird is people whose first instinct in response to a horror like that is to look for somebody else to bomb. I think that's repulsive. Were three thousand deaths not enough?

And I find it almost beyond comprehension that ten times that number of US citizens killed every bloody year at the hands of US citizens with guns causes so much less policy response, so much less public expenditure, so much less curtailment of civil liberties. Even allowing for 9/11, you guys are hundreds of times more likely to be killed by one of your own than by anybody else. So why has it been so easy for the Administration to use 9/11 to push its police-state agenda?

The only way I can make sense of it is to conclude that the public response to 9/11 has not been so much to its actual meaning as to the spectacle. Bushco has not been implementing security; it's been producing security theatre. And I think that's beyond tragic.
posted by flabdablet at 8:35 PM on September 11, 2007 [3 favorites]


It's quite sad that sept 11th has become the holiday where people reflect on what the US means, etc.
Really, this day is a comment on what's worst in you.
posted by signal at 8:35 PM on September 11, 2007


... What you want to do is remember an awful crime. What you end up doing is invoking a Republican talking point. ...
posted by amberglow at 8:57 PM on September 11, 2007


Maybe send them little notes/essays about the beginning of the same rut.

It's easy to look like that hovering near orgasm. The parts of the things stressed in traditional Islam is to meet life standing up. Jack London's ghost is shaking his head off at medium range. Then, killing GI Joes (the plastic ones, I wasn't old enough (or young enough with the autonomic nervous system couched in pop trivia and dominated by the dozen in flagrant contempt for the cast.
posted by Burhanistan at 9:19 PM on September 11, 2007


Unbelievable! Another of Lee L Mercer Jr's sockpuppets, if I'm not mistaken...
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:49 PM on September 11, 2007


According to Wikipedia, the US fleet at Pearl Habor was 8 battleships, 8 cruisers, 29 destroyers, 9 submarines, ~50 other ships, and ~390 aircraft (the three American carriers in the Pacific were elsewhere); the attacking Japanese fleet was 6 aircraft carriers, 9 destroyers, 2 battleships, 2 heavy cruisers, 1 light cruiser, 8 tankers, 23 fleet submarines, 5 midget submarines, and 414 aircraft.

Wow. Um, you do realize that in that one day at Pearl Harbor, the Japanese eliminated nearly the entire US Pacific Fleet, do you not? That's kind of what I meant by "dwarfed." As in, we had nothing left, and they were really big.
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:00 PM on September 11, 2007


The only way I can make sense of it is to conclude that the public response to 9/11 has not been so much to its actual meaning as to the spectacle.

Undoubtedly true. For people shocked & upset by the unnecessary & tragic loss of life on that one day, it shouldn't take too much of a leap of the imagination to realise that it's pretty much insignificant in comparison to the seven 9/11s that have happened every day, day in, day out, in the six year since 2001 (and indeed, in decades leading up to that date, too).

That's over fifteen thousand 9/11s, caused not by a handful of crazies, but by the general indifference of western people for many of whom, apparently, spending a bajillion dollars to bomb the crap out of a country is an OK response to tragedy, but extending a hand to people in the developing world & helping them with clean water & vaccinations to actually reduce the sum of human misery is typically met with thrown up arms, and a resigned cry of "it's just too difficult!"

I think the spectacular aspect of the event is largely to blame. It's so much easier to focus on some planes & skyscrapers & explosions & demonised enemies & revenge fantasies than to slog away at reducing the appalling toll of slow, anonymous deaths from disease & poverty.
posted by UbuRoivas at 10:03 PM on September 11, 2007 [2 favorites]


My country, 'tis of thee,
eagle symbolically, but now birdbrain.
Land where Congress green-lights
pow'r grabs, "rendition" flights;
curtailing cherished rights. Who'll stop the rain?

posted by rob511 at 10:35 PM on September 11, 2007


For me, this is a day of mourning, nothing more, nothing less.
posted by wv kay in ga at 10:47 PM on September 11, 2007


navelgazer: wow. thanks.
posted by CitizenD at 11:36 PM on September 11, 2007


"I think the spectacular aspect of the event is largely to blame. It's so much easier to focus on some planes & skyscrapers & explosions & demonised enemies & revenge fantasies than to slog away at reducing the appalling toll of slow, anonymous deaths from disease & poverty.,,"

That strikes me as a spectacularly po-faced comment.

A person's indifference to 9/11 is no guarantee his or her energies are typically devoted to reducing anonymous deaths from disease and poverty.

Perhaps that's true of you personally, UbuRoivas.

In which case, your point would be better made from your own experience rather than blasting away at the conveniently stupid, lumpen masses.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 4:59 AM on September 12, 2007


fair enough point, Jody, but it relates overall to the hype surrounding 9/11 with respect to the fact the same death toll happens seven times every single day.

It's not a claim that people don't do other things to alleviate preventable deaths; more to do with compassion fatigue & the nature of the spectacle; maybe something to do with things close to home & the idea of laying blame on human agency.

Perhaps that's true of you personally

Idunno. It's not in any way a contest or anything, but I like to follow the Muslim principle of donating at least 2.5% of income (after tax) to the poor. In my case, that component takes the form of a sponsored girl in India & another in Ethiopia. Actually, there have been four to date, but the silly charity keeps closing down projects whenever they feel they have done enough work to bring that particular area up to a barely acceptable standard of agriculture, education, health & so on.
posted by UbuRoivas at 5:55 AM on September 12, 2007




Jeesh, UbuRoivas!!

A sober reply - then you have to refer provocatively to the "Muslim principle of donating at least 2.5% of income..."

I hardly know whether you're being tongue-in-cheek - implying that Muslims are cheaper than, say, the more generous ten-per-centers after tax from other religions!

Or whether you are serious by highlighting an obscure but positive aspect of Muslim beliefs, in the specific context of a divisive & splashy atrocity perpetuated by a few crazies!

Either way, it's a jarring note.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 6:26 AM on September 12, 2007


which religions advocate 10% after tax? curious.

an obscure but positive aspect of Muslim beliefs

no, not in the tiniest bit obscure. charity to the poor is one of the five pillars of Islam, along with fasting (especially at Ramadan), praying five times a day, making the pilgrimage to Mecca, and testifying there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah.

charity to the poor is a sacred duty, without which one cannot profess to be Muslim.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:38 AM on September 12, 2007


disclaimer: kerouacian, ie lapsed Catholic turned Buddhist
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:39 AM on September 12, 2007


"charity to the poor is a sacred duty, without which one cannot profess to be Muslim."

Unless you're stinking poor yourself?

Then it's NOT a sacred duty, as I understand.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:01 AM on September 12, 2007


A sober reply - then you have to refer provocatively to the "Muslim principle of donating at least 2.5% of income..."

Yeah, what a tosser.

I'm FULL-ON into Christian principles like turning the other cheek and the parable of the vineyard and, like, not being rich so I can pass thru the eye of a needle and go to heaven and stuff.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:09 AM on September 12, 2007


Yeah, what a tosser.

I assume you're being sarcastic, uncanny hengeman?

I wasn't trying to troll.

I just think it's the thin end of the wedge to affect identifying personal charity donation as a "Muslim principle" in a thread about reactions to 9/11.

Especially when the person lecturing identifies himself as a "lapsed Catholic turned Buddhist".
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:32 AM on September 12, 2007


I assume you're being sarcastic, uncanny hengeman?

It's funny how conversing in non real time text can throw up all sorts of misunderstandings!

I was referring to UbuRoivas. "They all teach similar stuff, but which controversial, attention-seeking choice of religion shall I say I base my beliefs on? Hmmmm. Let me see now."
posted by uncanny hengeman at 8:07 AM on September 12, 2007


Crap.
Sorry - my mistake uncanny hengeman.

(I agree, very warmly).
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:20 AM on September 12, 2007


what on earth are you guys on about?

there's nothing affected about me adopting that pillar as one of my personal principles; i've been doing it for years, whether you choose to believe me or not. as far as i know, eyes of needles & all notwithstanding, no other religion is as explicit & upfront in saying that you *have* to be charitable:

Zakah, or alms-giving, is the practice of charitable giving by Muslims based on accumulated wealth, and is obligatory for all who are able to do so. It is considered to be a personal responsibility for Muslims to ease economic hardship for others and eliminate inequality.


but yeh, i totally agree with you. the actions of a miniscule pocket minority of controversial, attention-seeking crazies one one day six years ago mean that all of Islam is beyond the pale, and nothing pertaining to that religion - no matter how positive, no matter how normal & peace-loving the vast majority of its adherents - should ever be mentioned in any way whatsoever to do with 9/11.

and to profess to respect & adhere to any tenet of any 'other' religion, no matter how worthy, is clearly arbitrary, trollish, hypocritical & attention-seeking. my bad, all round.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2007




UbuRoivas,
Your "apology" notwithstanding - yeah, I do think it's affected (and empty) to selectively fasten on to the one aspect of a religion - in this case charity donation - that has nothing to do with the core tenets of Muslim worship in order to proclaim yourself in gracious world harmony with its adherents.

In fact, given the famous statistical oddity in the USA - that red state residents are more generous towards charities than blue staters - you probably have more in common than you like with EXACTLY the sort vengeful, western nitwit you despise.

As for "as far as i know, eyes of needles & all notwithstanding, no other religion is as explicit & upfront in saying that you *have* to be charitable'" that just reads like an admission of obtuse cherry picking.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 5:23 AM on September 13, 2007


selectively fasten on to the one aspect of a religion - in this case charity donation - that has nothing to do with the core tenets of Muslim worship

"nothing to do with"?!?!? Jody, may I repeat: it's one of the five pillars. There is nothing in Christianity even close to resembling a set of universally known core tenets. Maybe the ten commandments come vaguely close. Charity is explicitly one of the five core things that are obligatory for Muslims. Is there any way to make this more clear to you? It is absolutely central.

red state residents are more generous towards charities than blue staters - you probably have more in common than you like with EXACTLY the sort vengeful, western nitwit you despise.

Apart from the vengefulness, I guess. I have no problem with people being charitable.

just reads like an admission of obtuse cherry picking.

How so? The example quoted was the camel needle story. If Christians were to apply that earnestly, they/we would need to reduce them/ourselves to the state of third-worlders, since even somebody on social security in the west is infinitely rich compared with the majority of the world. People on the dole can afford a room of their own, a TV set, a shitty car or motorbike, eat three meals a day...which is why that particular teaching is only honoured in the breach, or else it is reinterpreted to mean something like "ok, so you're rich? you've probably done some bad shit in your time. tsk tsk" ~ at least a clear & simple obligation with its own KPI is easy to understand & impossible to reinterpret or dismiss as a non-core tenet.

In fact, I would actually turn your assertion on its head & say that Christians who fail to voluntarily make themselves poor - as Christ advised - are the ones engaging in cherry picking.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:34 AM on September 13, 2007


also: please tell me where I "proclaim[ed] [my]self in gracious world harmony with [the] adherents [of Islam]"

I have a strong sense that you're tilting at straw windmills here, and that's without even bringing up the topic of any other aspects of Islam that I respect &/or research &/or follow. The fact that I mentioned *one* is no reason for you to prematurely conclude that it's the only one.
posted by UbuRoivas at 6:42 AM on September 13, 2007


67% also fault 9/11 Commission for not investigating anomalous collapse of World Trade Center 7

I count myself among those people. All the conspiracy theories I have seen on that range from idiotic to ridiculous. But, in the absence of any authoritative information whatsoever, it's not hard to imagine why imaginations have been allowed to run rampant.
posted by psmealey at 6:59 AM on September 13, 2007


There is nothing in Christianity even close to resembling such a set of universally known core tenets. (which is what i thought i had typed; big difference in meaning, had to clarify)
posted by UbuRoivas at 7:27 AM on September 13, 2007


Jody Tresidder: Just FYI, by wildly attacking someone for practising charity you're coming off as a real dick.
posted by languagehat at 7:43 AM on September 13, 2007


One by one, UbuRoivas.

"The example quoted was the camel needle story. If Christians were to apply that earnestly..."

Where is your evidence, then, that all Muslims apply the principle of charity giving "earnestly"? (And please don't insult me with the circularity of saying "because they have to").

And a second TINY point to my first:

You keep saying the charity giving is obligatory - then you smuggle in - except when it is not (for example, when one has nothing to give...). Therefore, there is - surely - a technical caveat to the Muslim obligation?
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:44 AM on September 13, 2007


"J Tresidder: Just FYI, by wildly attacking someone for practising charity you're coming off as a real dick."

posted by languagehat

Am not.

Which is about as feebly nonresponsive as your comment.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 7:48 AM on September 13, 2007


you know, i'm with the hat on this one. you really are coming across as a nitpicking dick.

you'll never win this one, trust me. and your belligerence shows that you have no interest in sympathising or understanding, let alone listening, so there's no point in me continuing here.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:03 AM on September 13, 2007


I'd suggest dropping this one, UbuRoivas. Jody Tresidder's on some kind of mission, obviously: his/her relentless pursuit of his/her ever-thinning argument is starting to smell like trolling to me.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:13 AM on September 13, 2007


(btw, muito obrigado, o chapeuzinho>
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:15 AM on September 13, 2007


"...so there's no point in me continuing here."

Fine.

Because now I can post the bit that really irritates me about your hollow posturing here with causing further bristling.

You teach us that it is easier to focus on spectacular blips like 9/11 rather than than "to slog away at reducing the appalling toll of slow, anonymous deaths from disease & poverty."

Then when we look to your self-admitted, apparently entirely Muslim-core-principle-inspired, track record of slogging away tackling "anonymous" chronic hardship, you tell us you support a "silly charity"!


In your own exasperated words: "In my case, that component takes the form of a sponsored girl in India & another in Ethiopia. Actually, there have been four to date, but the silly charity keeps closing down projects whenever they feel they have done enough work to bring that particular area up to a barely acceptable standard of agriculture, education, health & so on."


Perhaps UbuRoivas, you should apply yourself to a more vigorous "slog" through charity mission statements to find one a little less "silly" in terms of long term commitment??

You have argued poorly here.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:15 AM on September 13, 2007


flapjax: yep. pretty much.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:18 AM on September 13, 2007


ever-thinning argument, indeed.

*sigh*
*in patronising robot voice*:

the charity moves on when it has completed its development work. that means it has set up the clean water & schools & clinics that they set out to achieve. i only call it silly in jest. it does good work. it was obviously a tongue in cheek comment.

perhaps, since you obviously know better, you could suggest five or so of yours that i could pick from?
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:25 AM on September 13, 2007


Oh - and while you're still cleaning your whiskers, UbuRoivas...

"The example quoted was the camel needle story. If Christians were to apply that earnestly, they/we would need to reduce them/ourselves to the state of third-worlders, since even somebody on social security in the west is infinitely rich compared with the majority of the world...."

This just sounds like a pissed off teenager.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:31 AM on September 13, 2007


"... i only call it silly in jest. it does good work. it was obviously a tongue in cheek comment. .."

Must have been bloody hilarious to the sponsored girls involved!
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:35 AM on September 13, 2007


Jody, although i sometimes deign to pretend to engage in rational conversation, your clear dedication to the noble cause of absurdism has not passed unnoticed, believe me. my people will be in touch with your agent, should we ever need an understudy for a minor role in one of my upcoming Ubu plays.

Congratulations! you have passed muster!
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:39 AM on September 13, 2007


"understudy for a minor role in one of my upcoming Ubu plays..."

Oh, and what part do you play? The sanctimonious twerp?
posted by Jody Tresidder at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2007


Jody: what are you arguing about? UboRoivas' choice of charities? Seriously?
Stop, you're just embarrassing yourself.
posted by signal at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2007


signal: he/she's obviously drunk. leave it alone.
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:52 AM on September 13, 2007


meanwhile, i'm off to do something worthwhile in my life, since all this charity stuff is too fraught with issues. maybe write a book about hugh grant, or something. that'll sure embiggen the world!
posted by UbuRoivas at 8:59 AM on September 13, 2007


"Jody: what are you arguing about? UboRoivas' choice of charities? Seriously?
Stop, you're just embarrassing yourself."

Signal,
No, I'm not, actually.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:00 AM on September 13, 2007


"maybe write a book about hugh grant, or something. that'll sure embiggen the world!"

The royalties went to the Los Angeles Distressed Streetwalkers Society.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:02 AM on September 13, 2007


(actually, i was about to apologise for that. too much snarkiness here. who are the distressed streetwalkers?)
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:05 AM on September 13, 2007


[no internet presence for the LADSS. you're upgraded from understudy to minor role. well done!]
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:08 AM on September 13, 2007


No, I'm not, actually.

Well, you're sure embarrassing the rest of us.

And FYI, my comment before was meant as a reasonably friendly shoulder tap: "Hey, dude, I don't know if you realize this, but..." After all, it's always hard to know how others see us. But by now I'm beginning to suspect you may actually be a dick. Or possibly a pissed off teenager. Which comes to the same thing.
posted by languagehat at 9:08 AM on September 13, 2007


actually, i was about to apologise for that

Yeah, right.

who are the distressed streetwalkers?

Liz Hurley?

(I hold no ill will for the Hugh Grant dig. I'd use it too.)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:08 AM on September 13, 2007


*kicks self* - oh, you spent it all on whores?
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:09 AM on September 13, 2007


"And FYI, my comment before was meant as a reasonably friendly shoulder tap: "Hey, dude, I don't know if you realize this, but...""

A reasonably pleasant tone is often hard to convey, languagehat.

And I'd say you failed. (Though I would, wouldn't I?).

I am dogged at times. But I felt Ubu was asking for it. I understand you vehemently disagree.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:13 AM on September 13, 2007


right, outta here, if only because there are three thousand people upthread who are gonna have to read this shit in their *my comments*, but also because the conversation has passed silly. funny that it started out as outrage about mentioning muslim charity in a thread ostensibly about 9/11
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:15 AM on September 13, 2007


"*kicks self* - oh, you spent it all on whores?"

Kick yourself harder, then.

I spent it all on hoes (and clean water etc, stuff to give 'em a western standard of living...!)

(Oh God, he won't get it!)
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:17 AM on September 13, 2007


(christ, what a fucking wanker)
posted by UbuRoivas at 9:38 AM on September 13, 2007


I beg your pardon, Ubu?!!

I honestly can't follow your mood swings here.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 9:48 AM on September 13, 2007


What the fuck is with metafilter recently?! It's like my "Recent Activity" page is filled with pointless antagonistic pissing contests. I swear to God mathowie should just turn this site around and go right back home if we keep this up.
posted by shmegegge at 10:50 AM on September 13, 2007


."..It's like my "Recent Activity" page is filled with pointless antagonistic pissing contests."

I apologize to you for my part in this pissing contest, schmegegge.

(I ended up commenting like I had a bladder infection).

But I wasn't drunk or trolling, I'm not a dick or an effing wanker. However, somehow things weren't coming across.
Sorry.
posted by Jody Tresidder at 11:05 AM on September 13, 2007


rudepundit: 9/11 Is Tired of Your Tears--... Every day, it seems, yes, that someone else rings her up and tells her to meet them at a speech or after an appearance. She knows the routine. She knows her job. 9/11 dresses in her mourning duds, the ones that look like she's paying respects to the dead, but with enough of a slit up the leg to let whoever her suitor is that night know that she is always available for them.

She's got her regulars, Giuliani and Bush and Cheney....
The worst is the campaign season. How she has to show up at the Republican debates to fellate each candidate. How she has to be under the desks at Fox hand-jobbing the O'Reillies and Hannities, fingering the Coulters and Malkins. How Joe Lieberman has done things to her so disgusting she wants to burn them out of her mind. ...

posted by amberglow at 3:23 PM on September 13, 2007


That was a country that, once it got its shit together, it got shit done.

allkindsoftime, television has really fucked you up. you've swallowed the world war two movie pill whole, and now you're farting out the sweet aroma of its propoganda as though the entire thing was a fucking musical where grimly determined but happy americans linked arms and set out to battle a clearly defined evil with an unbreachable solidarity. johnny g.i. is a hollywood myth, dude. rosie the riveter nobly building bombers and dreaming of the day her man came home was dramatized fiction. half of americans wanted to let europe fix its own damn problems. half of corporate america was profiteering, the other half backslapping the nazi war ministers while they carefully tried to determine which way the wind was blowing. put your finger down your throat man, yeah, things suck today, but its pretty much a continuation of when the "greatest generation" was fucking humanity over too.
posted by quonsar at 8:01 AM on September 15, 2007 [1 favorite]


After you've recovered from q's application of the clue-by-four, go read this to get an idea of why he felt the urge to wield it.
posted by flabdablet at 7:34 AM on September 18, 2007


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