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Suspension de l’abonnement internet
June 24, 2008 12:55 AM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

"There is no reason that the Internet should be lawless," President Nicolas Sarkozy told his cabinet, as Culture Minister Christine Albanel presented a new bill designed to encourage responsible use of the Internet. The legislation would set up a new administrative body that would receive complaints from the music and film industry and track down offenders through Internet service providers. An e-mail warning would be sent to suspected downloaders followed by a registered letter. After two strikes, offenders would risk losing their Internet subscription for up to a year. "We know that we are not going to eradicate piracy 100 percent, but we think that we can reduce it significantly," Albanel told a news conference.

Minister of Culture and Communication, Christine Albanel, has made the French spirit of responsibility a cornerstone of her portfolio. The new bill follows agreements signed on the 23 November 2007 at the Elysée Palace, in the presence of the President of the Republic, by 47 businesses and organisations representing cinema, music and television, and also by all the Internet service providers, who the Minister has compelled to fulfil the agreement.

Firstly, the Minister revealed that 74% of French people are in favour of the mechanism of the bill, which would, in the first instance, consist of sending numerous educational advertisement messages to Internet users who use their Internet connection to pirate works. Then, in the case of this behaviour being repeated, the temporary suspension of Internet access.

The Minister also revealed that the projected mechanism will be useful from the preventative phase, since 90% of French people would stop downloading after two advertisements. This study also shows the adherence of the majority of French people to the defence of the right of the author, without which ‘creation’ would have its existence threatened, against those who support openly the law of the jungle and permissiveness on the Internet.
posted by three blind mice (143 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite

Sorry, last two links go the the same (wrong) page.

The list of signatories is found on this page under the link:

> Signataires de l'accord (pdf)

The report itself is revealed under the link:

> Le rapport (pdf)

Both are (obviously) in French.

posted by three blind mice at 1:00 AM on June 24


"...against those who support openly the law of the jungle and permissiveness", lol.

I guess I'm one of "those" people? Good thing I don't live in France.
posted by Spacelegoman at 1:23 AM on June 24


posted by three blind mice the mechanism of the bill, which would . . . consist of sending numerous educational advertisement messages to Internet users

First it was yellowcake uranium, now it's spam. Once again the Nigerians and the French are collaborating to destroy the world.
posted by optovox at 1:31 AM on June 24


It is a very French-political-class solution, but they are a democratically elected government: I have far less of a problem with this than with, say, the Great Firewall of China.

It also proves that all that excitement about the Internet being a new oasis of LIBERTEH beyond the reach of national governments was total guff.
posted by athenian at 1:43 AM on June 24


It also proves that all that excitement about the Internet being a new oasis of LIBERTEH beyond the reach of national governments was total guff.

I think it still holds true, but we are too lazy. Convenience far outweighs liberty and freedom both on and offline
posted by twistedonion at 2:01 AM on June 24


It also proves that all that excitement about the Internet being a new oasis of LIBERTEH beyond the reach of national governments was total guff.

That's a bit unfair. I know someone who VPNs to Sweden to avoid local filtering. Censorship, damage, etc. Of course, 99.5% of people don't care about being beyond the reach of national governments, but I'm still hopeful that IPv6, if it ever comes, will make vast chunks of the internet go dark to anything beyond traffic analysis, despite their apathy.
posted by Leon at 2:08 AM on June 24


It also proves that all that excitement about the Internet being a new oasis of LIBERTEH beyond the reach of national governments was total guff.

I think it's just that people give up battling for FREEDOMTH against TYRANNY a lot sooner when they know what they're fighting for is a free movie or two, instead of actual freedom from opression.
posted by bonaldi at 2:27 AM on June 24


I also VPN via sweden, not because my ISP filters (I picked one of the few that doesn't in the UK), but because I object to my government giving the power to listen in on my email and web browsing to beaurocrats in local councils instead of at the order of a judge via a warrant. Now that sweden have just passed a law meaning all traffic passing through the country will be recorded and handed to pretty much anybody that asks, I'm looking for a new vpn provider - torrentfreedom is looking good, even though I don't actually use torrents for anything bar legal content (they don't put ubuntu on usenet!)
posted by ArkhanJG at 2:50 AM on June 24


what they're fighting for is a free movie or two

Bit more than a free movie or two imo. I should be able to download whatever I want without Government approval.
posted by twistedonion at 2:50 AM on June 24


Actually this will be an interesting lesson for the government. There is no way they can win the technical battle. Even if Dieu itself were to point out who downloads what they shouldn't, it is trivial to jam the system in false positives. And all they need to do is piss someone off that can program.

False positives and enforcement will be funny to see from outside.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 2:55 AM on June 24


Bit more than a free movie or two imo. I should be able to download whatever I want without Government approval.
Of course. But if the flipside of that is "I should be able to infringe legislation whenever I want without Government disapproval" the two are going to butt heads at some point.
posted by bonaldi at 2:59 AM on June 24


Well i, for one, believe everyone should be able to infringe corporation-bought legislation.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 3:02 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


Guys, not to interfere with my own thread, but you DO know that the Riksdag here in Sweden (100m from where I type these words) passed the FRA law last week. The law, taking effect in 2009, gives the Swedish National Defence Radio Establishment (FRA, Swedish Försvarets radioanstalt) the right to use SIGINT on all internet exchange points that exchange traffic that crosses Swedish borders. Of course, even "domestic" traffic is subject to the law because "domestic" IP packets do not necessarily remain within the country's borders. It's a free wiretap pass.

If freedom from government snooping of your IP traffic is what you desire, Sweden is not the place to host your VPN.

posted by three blind mice at 3:04 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


This kind of thing is probably the only way my flat will ever be stormed by a Virgin.
posted by srboisvert at 3:06 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


Well i, for one, believe everyone should be able to infringe corporation-bought legislation.
Good for you. I for one can't wait to see the world all this "producers of expensive stuff can only expect minimal returns" thinking produces; at this rate it's only going to take 10 or 20 years.

(Full disclosure: I've been a torrent hound at times myself)
posted by bonaldi at 3:13 AM on June 24


Good for you. I for one can't wait to see the world all this "producers of expensive stuff can only expect minimal returns" thinking produces; at this rate it's only going to take 10 or 20 years.

just like home taping killed the music industry right?
posted by twistedonion at 3:16 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Firstly, the Minister revealed that 74% of French people are in favour of the mechanism of the bil

Suuuuure they are.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:19 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


just like home taping killed the music industry right?
Yeh, you know what? Crying wolf once doesn't mean there's never going to be a wolf. Record and book shops were first up -- I was amazed how quickly they shut down, I thought it would take a lot longer. Newspapers are next -- within 5 to 10 years you're going to see a lot of them go belly up. Films will be last to go, I think, but if they are reduced solely to cinema ticket income, they'll dwindle too.

It's now basically ridiculous to say that the old models won't die. It's just that many have been assuming that new models will take their places, despite there really being no compelling evidence of anybody having a clue how it could work or be made pay, almost 15 years since we started on this jape.
posted by bonaldi at 3:32 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


Maybe if they watched YouPorn they would lighten up.
posted by dasheekeejones at 3:56 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Well i, for one, believe everyone should be able to infringe corporation-bought legislation.

Cool, does it say in each act which bits were bought by whom? I wouldn't want to infringe any NGO sponsored clauses.
posted by patricio at 4:06 AM on June 24


three blind mice beat me to it alerting you "VPNs to Sweden" peeps about the FRA law. Not the neutral internet place it once was.
posted by dabitch at 4:11 AM on June 24


Record and book shops were first up -- I was amazed how quickly they shut down, I thought it would take a lot longer.

I can only speak for having worked in a record store in the UK for 10 years but it wasn't the internet that killed the record stores and book shops, it was Tesco.

People will, on the whole, pay for something they place value in. The business models will do just fine, if they listen to the needs of their consumers, rather than rely on Governments to ram through laws giving us consumers no clout.
posted by twistedonion at 4:24 AM on June 24 [4 favorites]


Actually ArkhanJG had us both beat, dabitch. I missed it on preview.
posted by three blind mice at 4:26 AM on June 24


twistedonion: no rational market participant will pay for something when a free alternative is available. If you want to charge for something, you've got to try and make it hard for people to get the same thing for free, no? (and this ignores all the models supported by advertising, like newspapers, which will go even when a market remains for them)
posted by bonaldi at 4:46 AM on June 24


bonaldi: luckily, there are very few rational market participants around. Otherwise, there wouldn't be crashes, ponzi schemes, and Celine Dion would have sold all of two copies of her records.
posted by vivelame at 4:58 AM on June 24 [4 favorites]


no rational market participant will pay for something when a free alternative is available.

True. I'm not saying all digital content should be free at all, but all this blaming kids who download is BS of the highest degree. The internet is not responsible for the death of record shops or book stores any more than it is resonsible for the death of the small independant retailer. Yet the record industry has tried to pin whatever blame it can on consumers instead of itself. then it lobbies, successfully, for more power to control it's market. It's all bollocks.

The whole reason for the decline in CD sales in the late 90's was that people had already replaced their old vinyl collections so a whole back catalogue was running out of buyers. This had a huge impact but the blame was on the downloader (just like blaming the home taper).


If you want to charge for something, you've got to try and make it hard for people to get the same thing for free, no?

Or make it easier to buy with fewer restrictions. I don't buy music to make the record Industry more money, I buy it because I support the artist.

Same with software, if I percieve value I'll buy it (even though with half an hours work I could find a download and crack).
posted by twistedonion at 5:06 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Cool, does it say in each act which bits were bought by whom? I wouldn't want to infringe any NGO sponsored clauses.

Cui bono, my lawyer friend, cui bono.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 5:20 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


$50 to the first person who can DoS the entire French political establishment by spoofing packets & getting their access revoked.
posted by aramaic at 5:33 AM on June 24


That's very true Bonaldi, but I don't think you have anything like cause and effect there. Speaking for my area, all the small chain bookstores got folded up and put back in the box when Borders and Barnes & Noble were the new hotness. Independents ability to compete against those two has been Wal Mart vs. Main Street USA from day one, but there are still some good independent bookstores out there.

Of the used book stores, even before the net that was a business model with a lot of weak starters and a few serious contenders. I know a couple serious contenders who have gone under, but they were both bough out by Amazon.com or some Amazon like operation.

Similarly, the availability of music in stores with less than a zillion square feet of floor space has gone down, but turn over any wet rock and you'll likely find a Best Buy with a significant percentage of its sales floor devoted to CD's. And, I still have two awesome independent music stores within a few miles of me.

New models have been so slow to take over because those who have been doing well under the old model have really gone out of their way to kick them over. Still, I can get on Amazon and pull down a DRM free (read playable on everything I own with minimum hassle) MP3 with no glitches in the encoding, correct tag information, and a huge bit rate in under a minute. This is why the RIAA is in hand waving freakoutery mode and Amazon.com has their own space program.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:46 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


First it was yellowcake uranium, now it's spam. Once again the Nigerians and the French are collaborating to destroy the world.

Niger and Nigeria are two separate countries. Scam email stereotypically comes from one, yellowcake the other.
posted by delmoi at 5:50 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


no rational market participant will pay for something when a free alternative is available.

So, according to your economic model, everyone who owns a car, has taken a bus, train or taxi, or even rides a bike instead of walking is insane.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 5:53 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


Good for you. I for one can't wait to see the world all this "producers of expensive stuff can only expect minimal returns" thinking produces; at this rate it's only going to take 10 or 20 years.

I can't either. I think I can live without expensive I.P, if it means I can own a PC without a special chip installed to give control to the music industry, or use the internet without having my traffic monitored, etc. Frankly, it would be a small price to pay. Of course, everything that's currently advertisement supported would be fine.

If freedom from government snooping of your IP traffic is what you desire, Sweden is not the place to host your VPN.

If only there was a way to encrypt VPN traffic!
posted by delmoi at 5:56 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


the right to use SIGINT on all internet exchange points that exchange traffic that crosses Swedish borders.

Right but let us say you rent rackspace in Sweden and your VPN is encrypted. You don't even have to use a VPN, but as long as it is encrypted who cares what they record. They just see a bunch of encrypted information between two points.

The real security is the fact that bringing an international lawsuit on someone who is downloading music is very, very low. It is still incredibly expensive to do such things, much more so than just sending a lawsuit in the US itself.

I think it would still be possible to do something like Sweden -> South Africa -> America. You'd have to be really vigilant to track down a copyright offender who uses three countries to download Sonic Youth's Daydream Nation.
posted by geoff. at 5:56 AM on June 24


Traditional media corporations are the Ancien Regime of modern Capitalism -- trying vainly to keep their head above water in the midst of their own Enlightenment.
posted by Avenger at 6:12 AM on June 24


no rational market participant will pay for something when a free alternative is available.

So, according to your economic model, everyone who owns a car, has taken a bus, train or taxi, or even rides a bike instead of walking is insane.


You prove the point -- those things aren't exact substitutes. This is perceived as a problem because digital copies are exactly the same in a way that a home tape or a dodgy copy of a film taped in a cinema aren't.
posted by patricio at 6:18 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


delmoi: everything that's ad supported is in big, big trouble.

Kid charlemane: no, they're really good points and I don't disagree. It's simplistic to say the net caused it all. But it has been contributory and a catalyst, I think. New models have been slow to take over because there's resistance, yes, and some of it is reactionary crap ... But a lot of it is because the new model makes a lot less money. So, yes, boo hoo for the big guys making a million or two less, but the real problem is with the small guys who were just getting by under the old model. Now they're in real trouble.
posted by bonaldi at 6:32 AM on June 24


I'm a bit skeptical about those approval ratings. As we all know, 90% of statistics are made-up.
posted by Saxon Kane at 6:33 AM on June 24


I find it amusing when people go on like there was no art before capitalism and when capitalism becomes largely irrelevant to sundry art forms they will go away.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:44 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


I can't really shed any tears for anyone who's underwater now or about to be soon. The demand for entertainment and information is clearly still around, and it's not going anywhere.

If the Internet allows that demand to be sated by a relatively fewer number of producers, that's a good thing in the long run, as it's more efficient. Saying that we should prop up old models because they employ more artists is just Luddism. The market will cause to be produced the amount of new, novel material that people actually want, and it will do that even with rampant piracy. (Since piracy doesn't really create anything new, it doesn't really affect the demand for new material -- just copies.)

Really, though, I don't think that's the way it's going to pan out: the Internet is probably going to eliminate the profit opportunities for a lot of middlemen, but open up avenues for a lot of smaller artists to reach their audiences directly.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:48 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Oh god please help the artists win this battle against the rich nerds. amen
posted by dydecker at 6:59 AM on June 24


The market will cause to be produced the amount of new, novel material that people actually want, and it will do that even with rampant piracy. (Since piracy doesn't really create anything new, it doesn't really affect the demand for new material -- just copies.)

I don't think that follows because "people wanting" is not the same as "people paying for". The market will only cause to be produced material that will produce a profit (or at least not cause losses forever). If you can't make money/a living because piracy is so rampant then you won't produce the new material.
posted by patricio at 7:04 AM on June 24


...but the real problem is with the small guys who were just getting by under the old model.

If by 'small guys' you mean musicians, authors, and artists, they have regained opportunity to control their own work and even to make some money from it--privileges that were reserved for a tiny minority under the old model.
posted by troybob at 7:09 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


But a lot of it is because the new model makes a lot less money...but the real problem is with the small guys who were just getting by under the old model. Now they're in real trouble.

I'm not sure I believe in these little guys you describe.

Prior to the super low overhead days of the web finding independent music was not an easy thing. Now I can order ten CDs from music companies you have never heard of or from bands who are producing themselves in as many minutes. All of the expensive portions of music sales and production are gone, and with them a lot of jobs for middlemen. Buggy wheel makers are also having trouble finding work.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:17 AM on June 24


If you can't make money/a living because piracy is so rampant then you won't produce the new material.

There are plenty of things that piracy can't copy -- personal support, fancy packaging, and gimmicks (the album comes with a free poster and/or patch!), are all ways to add value to your product without spending a fortune. Or, just lower the price! If you cut out the middleman and are aggressive about trading and wholesaling your stuff, you can still turn a profit if you sell your CDs at $8 or maybe even $5. Besides, the die-hards will always buy, and there's nothing like the free publicity of mp3 to help the die-hards find you.

I sell CDs online for an underground metal label, and let me tell you, the shitty dollar has cost me more in less than a year than mp3 piracy will cost in a lifetime. Too bad I can't have the French government arrest Alan Greenspan!
posted by vorfeed at 7:45 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


twistedonion: The whole reason for the decline in CD sales in the late 90's was that people had already replaced their old vinyl collections so a whole back catalogue was running out of buyers. This had a huge impact but the blame was on the downloader (just like blaming the home taper).

Cite, please?
posted by vernondalhart at 7:53 AM on June 24


I'm sorry, I don't remember voting for an internet government.

Keep your goddamn institutions out of my network!
posted by smackwich at 8:04 AM on June 24


Bit more than a free movie or two imo. I should be able to download whatever I want without Government approval.


Why is that? Do you also agree that you should be able to take whatever you want from a store without paying for it?

Yes, many industry models -- music in particular -- are broken. But if I make something, whether that is a movie or a pillow or a plate of beans, I have the right to be paid for it if I choose to be. Downloading is theft, and you do not have the right to steal.

Note that I do make the distinction between downloading and fair use.. already own the movie, but want a copy for your laptop? I think that's reaonable. Downloading whatever you want? No.

Bottom line is that without people buying, most movies and music and books would never ever be created.

I always find it funny around here when people go nuts about OMGZ BAD GOVERNMENT NO LET ME DOWNLOAD.. but how few will download illegal ebooks.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:04 AM on June 24


I find it amusing when people go on like there was no art before capitalism and when capitalism becomes largely irrelevant to sundry art forms they will go away.

Sure, there was art before capitalism, but how much of it was available to the masses? Mozart performed for the Austrian aristocracy, since they could pay his bills. Anyone outside that elite group was out of luck. Would that sort of sponsorship be better than paying $10 for a CD? Artists need to eat, possibly want to raise a family, maybe buy a house or something. Someone's going to pay that bill, and if it's the super rich, what incentive do they have to share their pet artists with the masses?
posted by dellsolace at 8:11 AM on June 24


what dirtynumbetc said.

It's so dispiriting listening to Internet people who earn six figures a year justify copyright infringement. I am of the opinion that Google/YouTube hould be sued for every penny they own by copyright holders, as a lesson to the rest of the Internet.
posted by dydecker at 8:15 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Fine, I'll go past just capitalism. There was art before there was MONEY and there'll be art after money.

Bottom line is that without people buying, most movies and music and books would never ever be created.


By and large, a lot of crap would never ever be created. The profit motive doesn't tend to lead to good art, as far as I can tell.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 8:38 AM on June 24


Cite, please?

Well it's been over 10 years so I don't have any of the trade papers handy... try searching google. First page of Google results got me these, if it's any use to you.

On a positive note, sales of first release titles (as indicated by ARIAnet Top 100 Album sales) were up 14% in the first half. The decline in the overall audio album market can be attributed therefore to a slower moving back catalogue

A decline in CD sales is an indication of saturation in a market where innovation is lacking.


I didn't make that staement flippantly, at the time it was obvious (most people were still on 56k modems when the whole Napster furore began yet it was obvious the record industry was suffering big losses. They blamed file sharing instead of fewer back catalogue sales and new competing formats (dvd). those were the problems we in the service industry saw. So we started getting rid of our back catalogue and replaced it with DVDs and playstation games. Result was that we were now competing directly with the Supermarket. We now lacked the choice. Didn't take long before we were out of business.)
posted by twistedonion at 8:48 AM on June 24


Why is that? Do you also agree that you should be able to take whatever you want from a store without paying for it?

No, I don't actually download anything illegally these days, all legit, but I should still be able to download whatever I want without Government approval or snooping.

Catch me selling your work for a profit then go right ahead. Otherwise get your nose out of my private goings on.
posted by twistedonion at 9:06 AM on June 24


"First they came for the French, and I did not speak out, because I was not French..."
posted by limeonaire at 9:16 AM on June 24


Fine, I'll go past just capitalism. There was art before there was MONEY and there'll be art after money.
Yet while there is money, artists will need it to pay for what goes into their art, and what goes into their bellies. So while chortling at us saps who are ignorant of patronage, do please save a few chuckles to consider how they're going to survive in the transition period, while the thing they do gets harder to make money from, but everyone else still wants money from them.

I'm not sure I believe in these little guys you describe.
Little is relative. I'm not sure that this transition is going to kill Time Warner, but it's putting the hurt on the small-to-medium sized media groups (the ones that measure profits in the low millions). And ...

Really, though, I don't think that's the way it's going to pan out: the Internet is probably going to eliminate the profit opportunities for a lot of middlemen, but open up avenues for a lot of smaller artists to reach their audiences directly.
I think this is something of a consensus opinion among the optimists. It's a nice picture of the artist in their garret, creating the stuff on their low-cost computers and whamming it straight to the fans, with no needless middle-man intercession. But, really, I'm not sure how much of a shit I give about the smaller artists and their noble productions.

A lot of the things I like cost serious amounts of money to produce -- films, certain albums (if the smaller artist wants that polish of perfection that comes from collaboration with one of the world-class producers they're going to have to pay, aren't they?), reportage, photojournalism -- and involve the investors taking risks on duds. To be worth their while, the hits have to compensate for the misses. This utopian little-guy-with-his-website isn't going to do that.

Sure, it's probable, possibly likely, that we'll come up with something soon, although a lot of people with a lot at stake haven't been able to come up with anything yet. But there is going to be a transition period, and it could last for years, decades. In that period, the money's going to dry up for the big-budget stuff (it already is), and the new thing hasn't come along yet.

Talk about the death of horse and carts all you like, but sometimes the new thing isn't a car; sometimes the hand-crafted furniture is replaced with throwaway Ikea MDF. The market doesn't optimise for quality.
posted by bonaldi at 9:23 AM on June 24


do please save a few chuckles to consider how they're going to survive in the transition period

They could get a day job, or sling weed like the guy from The Flaming Lips.

The market doesn't optimise for quality.

Yet many artists don't give a shit about the market.

There will be changes. Big-budget Hollywood may go away, which will be a mixed blessing and curse. Probably fewer millionaire rockstars. Photography is being affected. Somehow, though, I really don't think there's going to be some sort of music shortage. There are also unequivocal benefits to the digital revolution: you can record your album in a cabin in Wisconsin and overhype that. Anyone in the world can freely access just about anything ever recorded.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:32 AM on June 24


They could get a day job, or sling weed like the guy from The Flaming Lips.
Why shouldn't creation be a day job? Good reporting is a day job. Should people try and cover city council meetings in their spare time from McDonald's? Struggling artists have to be struggling for something, and that's usually not continual struggle.

Even in the noblest case, they're struggling to get enough cash that they can forget about money and focus on what they do best.

Yet many artists don't give a shit about the market.
Where do they buy their dinner?

Anyone in the world can freely access just about anything ever recorded.
And this is an unequivocal benefit? Seems like a mixed blessing to me. Since I want more things to be recorded, and not just lo-fi first albums.
posted by bonaldi at 9:39 AM on June 24


In the week ending with June 15th, nine hundred thousand people bought the DVD of Jumper.

Fucking Jumper.

I don't know about music, but I pretty much just negated your arguments about film.

Yes, yes, I'm being somewhat flippant, but I really think you're being overwrought about all this.
posted by Caduceus at 10:01 AM on June 24


Why is that? Do you also agree that you should be able to take whatever you want from a store without paying for it?

No, I don't actually download anything illegally these days, all legit, but I should still be able to download whatever I want without Government approval or snooping.


So.. you're saying you have the right to steal, presuming that 'whatever I want' means 'whether it's legal or not'?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:02 AM on June 24


Mozart performed for the Austrian aristocracy, since they could pay his bills. Anyone outside that elite group was out of luck.

I think it would be a better world if Bill Gates or Warren Buffet were the only people who could afford to listen to New Kids On The Block.
posted by ryoshu at 10:02 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


A) Many forms of art do not require large investments of capital in order to create. The creation of art is not terribly coupled to the business of art in these cases. Bands release music , people create webcomics, and a handful make money. This is similar to the old ways, except I think the greater amount of money allowed for a slightly larger handful to make mediocre amounts of money, and the smallest percentage to make millions. I think the millions are off the table now.

Most of the art created as labors of love is crap, as is most art. Blathering on about the latest pitchfork discovery or webcomic you found is the easiest way to be scorned, even here.

B)There also exists art that requires outlays of capital. Video games, movies, animation, symphonies, anything that requires more people to create than those who have the artistic vision. While technology reduces the cost of many of the parts of production, these labor intensive industries still suffer under Baumol's cost disease.

I haven't seen many models for creating new content that scale well with increasing development costs.

C)Content producers will create things that can't be stolen, or produce for populations that will not steal. Small independent bands will find it harder to sell albums, but Hannah Montana album sales, and t shirt sales, and movie sales, and candy sales will probably still be on top. You can't sell the music, you have to sell the story, like the previous Justin Vernon link. Everyone will have a life story of suffering and redemption, because they will be selling that, with the music as just a signifier.

In terms of video games, people will stop making first person shooters, because their target market just won't buy them. Instead, we will have more and more multiplayer games, like World of Warcraft. Look to China to see the future.

D) This topic always brings out the libertarians, who claim that the holy market will make everything come out right in the end. While this may be true, it will probably do this by totally destroying market niches along the way. While free trade probably led to an increased GDP for the US, it was at the expense of places like Detroit and other Rust Belt cities.
posted by zabuni at 10:10 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


You know, Charles Dickens used to be angry that rogue printing presses in the United States pirating all his stuff.

Of course, in retrospect we know is rage was correct, since clearly the market for books expired in the 19th century.
posted by absalom at 10:14 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Why shouldn't creation be a day job?

Why should it? Tons of worthwhile pursuits used to be day jobs and now aren't and vice versa.

And this is an unequivocal benefit?


We're arguing about the side effects of free access, but in and of itself I see free access as a benefit. That is, 15 years ago if I wanted some music I had to go to a store, pay a lot of money, and put up with a limited selection. Today if I want some music I can have any release I've ever cared to search for (the one exception: All Lights Fucked on the Hairy Amp Drooling) for free and usually in about two minutes. (My experience is a little better than most people's, for now, since I'm lucky enough to be on a private site, so someone without that might have to look a little harder and maybe wait a whole 30 minutes.) That's why copyright is going away; more and more the creators themselves are also beneficiaries of this incredible amount of access.

I also think digital distribution will tend to increase the diversity of music via the standard "internet connects niche interests" argument applied to furries and so on.

C)Content producers will create things that can't be stolen,

Corrolary: Vinyl will outlive the CD, the DVD, and whichever of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won.

I think video games will do just fine. Commercially there's definitely a move towards selling games as services rather than as bits, though this isn't entirely new. Over a decade ago you didn't buy Starcraft for the game CD, you bought it for the CD-Key that let you use the official matchmaking servers. So yeah, a relative paucity of generic FPSes and more generic MMORPGS. Non-commercially and artistically a big budget can provide polish and assets but really doesn't make for a good or bad game.

Symphonies? Isn't recorded classical music already not that much of a commercial operation anymore. They'll still get paid to put on concerts.

Movies I think will take the biggest hit, but it's not like they're going to go away either, and technology definitely does help.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:26 AM on June 24


Why should everyone submit to total digital surveillance under the banner that, somewhere, a copyright is possibly being violated?
posted by aramaic at 10:37 AM on June 24


So.. you're saying you have the right to steal, presuming that 'whatever I want' means 'whether it's legal or not'?

Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, not "stealing". If we're going to argue over this, let's at least use honest terms.

Corrolary: Vinyl will outlive the CD, the DVD, and whichever of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray won.

Vinyl is only slightly harder to rip than CDs are -- you just need to play it once into the computer and then spend two minutes breaking it up into tracks in Audacity or the like. I've already seen plenty of vinyl-only stuff on bittorrent/rapidshare messageboards.
posted by vorfeed at 10:39 AM on June 24


Of course, in retrospect we know is rage was correct, since clearly the market for books expired in the 19th century.
Are you making the point you think you're making? When the US agreed to honour international copyright (ie the thing Dickens was pleading for) its book trade flourished as never before.

Yes, yes, I'm being somewhat flippant, but I really think you're being overwrought about all this.
Yes, I'm being a bit overheated, I should be more nuanced. It's difficult to be that, though while talking to It's All Great types. And I did say that movies would be the last to feel the pain.

I once believed that that news would be fine, even better online, but I was badly wrong there. The newspaper industry is dying far, far faster than anyone believed -- and faster I think than people outside the industry are even aware. The BBC had a show last month which reckoned that there would no longer be a Scottish press in 5-10 years. I agree with that. The other creative industries are more or less on a similar path.

Why should it? Tons of worthwhile pursuits used to be day jobs and now aren't and vice versa.
Oh really? Like what? As for why it should be a job: To take journalism, it should be because that produces better journalism. I'm pretty sure it's true for any sort of creative medium: if people are free to focus on it and not on revenue generation, they make better things.
posted by bonaldi at 10:45 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, not "stealing". If we're going to argue over this, let's at least use honest terms.


Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:46 AM on June 24


Vinyl is only slightly harder to rip than CDs are

Vinyl will last not because it is hard to digitize, but because it offers something non-digital. Better or worse, people will argue, but it definitely offers something different than what can be sent over the internet.

Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.

If I take something from you you don't have it anymore.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:59 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.

I just took your words and appropriated them for my own use. Am I now a thief?
posted by ryoshu at 11:05 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.

By that definition, every time anyone posts a sentence from or a link to an Associated Press article on MeFi, he or she is engaging in theft.
posted by blucevalo at 11:06 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Copyright infringement is copyright infringement, not "stealing". If we're going to argue over this, let's at least use honest terms.


Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.


Both of which are stupid word games designed to paint one side or the other as evil. See also: pro-choice/pro-life, the denigration of the word liberal and communist, the complete destruction of meaning for the term fascist, and many many others.

Copyrights original intent was to provide incentive for the creation of new works, by the government sponsorship of a limited monopoly. I would have more faith in the destruction of copyright if it's proponents acknowledged the possible destruction of content creation industries with the reasoning of "they sucked anyway". One, I don't like putting value judgments in this argument and two, people aren't suddenly grabbing and supporting individual small label artists. The most downloaded band right now is Coldplay.
posted by zabuni at 11:07 AM on June 24 [1 favorite]


If I take something from you you don't have it anymore.

A movie, a piece of music, a _______ is not yours until you have provided the owner with whatever they require in return. Sometimes that's nothing, sometimes that's dollars. Taking something that is not yours is theft.

By that definition, every time anyone posts a sentence from or a link to an Associated Press article on MeFi, he or she is engaging in theft.

See "fair use". Nice try, though.

I just took your words and appropriated them for my own use. Am I now a thief?

See above.

Both of which are stupid word games designed to paint one side or the other as evil.

No, it's not. The word game is 'copyright infringement'.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:20 AM on June 24


let's spend $$ on catching the downloaders rather than develop actionable policy for id_theft?

i agree the web shouldn't be lawless, but let's talk about harms and not virtual ones.
posted by quanta and qualia at 11:23 AM on June 24


I find it odd that people think good musicians will work for free, or for very little with no prospect of more at the end of it (and the new model whereby they make lots of money without copyright isn't here yet). Admittedly some good writers write on the Internet for free, but they're by far in the minority, and writing doesn't require the capital outlay of music (instruments, studio hire, etc.).

The labourer is worthy of his hire - which I think is a fairly socialist principle - and as I don't expect the nurses in my local hospital to work for the love of healthcare, I don't expect artists to work for art's sake.
posted by athenian at 11:24 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


I think the key problem here is that many artists have gotten into thinking that they're in a sort of manufacturing industry, where they design a product (the music) have it manufactured (at a replicator) and then sell the copies.

This model isn't looking sustainable anymore. Music, and information generally, doesn't follow well the "widget model" where you can resell the same thing over and over and over. It's not a rival good.

Where art and in particular music will always survive is as a service industry. You can't pirate a service. There are many forms that service might take, though. Direct patronage is only one of them. Concerts are another (and probably the dominant one for most musicians). I've always thought that fan-supported music probably has more opportunity than a lot of people give it credit for: I suspect a lot of people are willing to pay a little bit each in order to encourage the production of a new album/song/etc. by an artist they're fond of. (I'm thinking something that's more structured than just use-for-whatever-you-want donations; i.e. if the album doesn't come out, the contributors get their money back.)

In any case, the key difference is that as an artist, you need to find a way of selling your time and your skills, rather than manufacturing a good that's then replicated and sold. That latter path is wholly dependent on being the only one who can replicate the good, and that's just not a safe bet.

> I don't think that follows because "people wanting" is not the same as "people paying for".

I disagree. If people want it, they'll pay for it. If they won't pay for it, they don't want it that badly. QED.

Even if piracy was rampant and unconstrained, there would still be a demand for new music; that's just how people are. They want new works that are more relevant to them than older ones. The market will go to those who can figure out how to tap into that latent demand using a services model rather than a manufacturing one.

It may be that the demand (as measured in people who are willing to shell out actual money), for new music is quite small once people have access to the entire back-catalog of recorded music history for negligible cost. This is a distinct possibility. If so, that's the way it ought to be; it doesn't make any sense to create a whole copyright regime to essentially keep artists around if there's no market for them (which is what it means if the market has to be created for them artificially, by eliminating the competition of the back-catalog). That's just breaking a window to keep the glassmaker in business.

If people are happy listening to pre-recorded music, to the point where they're not willing to pay for new music to be created, then no new music will be created. That's a perfectly acceptable outcome, because it means nobody wants new music badly enough to actually pay for it. That's a well-functioning market. If everybody's happy listening to The Beatles and Pink Floyd, then The Beatles and Pink Floyd it'll be from now until the end of time. I think that's a very unlikely outcome, but it beats screwing around with the market in order to produce something that nobody will pay for voluntarily.
posted by Kadin2048 at 11:24 AM on June 24 [2 favorites]


I've become a lot less mellow about the whole "information is meant to be free" thing, since I discovered that not only is all my work being downloaded and traded zillions of times by people from whom I'll never see a dime, but that there's a guy in Eastern Europe who actually translated one of my books, translated some of my sales copy, duplicated one of my websites, and has been ringing up bucks for years by selling my stuff under his name.

It's a shame that folks, for the moment, have given up on micropayment.

The prevailing large-lump-payment-for-info model is pretty screwed, given absolute fidelity and exponentially expanding distribution.

Still, top-down governmental controls, rather than security enhancements to file formats, seem like the worst way to go about fixing issues like piracy.
posted by darth_tedious at 11:37 AM on June 24 [3 favorites]


Where art and in particular music will always survive is as a service industry. You can't pirate a service. There are many forms that service might take, though. Direct patronage is only one of them.
What sort of service are writers and film-makers going to perform? Copyright was created because it was a social good: we got a return in reward for granting this short-term monopoly, and the reward was more and better creative works. Sure it's gone to the point of insanity now, but the principle was sound.

I disagree. If people want it, they'll pay for it. If they won't pay for it, they don't want it that badly. QED.
That's a badly simplified model of what goes on. For instance, the cost of creating a newspaper is paid for by classified advertising, not by readers. It's entirely possible that there will still be a market demand for newspapers, but it'll be uneconomical to produce them. Similarly for films, where the market that pays to see them in theatres is only a small part of the total income required to produce them. People can want things very badly and the market still be unable to provide them.
posted by bonaldi at 11:39 AM on June 24


A movie, a piece of music, a _______ is not yours until you have provided the owner with whatever they require in return. Sometimes that's nothing, sometimes that's dollars. Taking something that is not yours is theft.

Very "intellectual property" based. Is it possible to own information? Please provide a rigorous argument where one person willingly communicating to me how bits are arranged on their hard drive so that I may arrange bits on my own hard drive in an identical fashion deprives you of your property and infringes upon your human rights, and how this consideration trumps various fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and my freedom to arrange the bits on my hard drive in any way I please.

The usual definition of "theft" involves depriving someone of something. If I steal your chair it is a theft. If I see your chair and build one like it is not a theft. Here's a relevant definition of "theft:" the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. Copyright infringement deprives no one of anything except a profit model which requires artificial propping up through legislation.

For example, in the US Constitution copyright/IP is mentioned as something the government has the power to enact laws for if they feel it would help (and of course they've gone overboard), but not as any sort of fundamental right.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:09 PM on June 24 [4 favorites]


Please provide a rigorous argument where one person willingly communicating to me how bits are arranged on their hard drive so that I may arrange bits on my own hard drive in an identical fashion deprives you of your property and infringes upon your human rights, and how this consideration trumps various fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and my freedom to arrange the bits on my hard drive in any way I please.

'Willingly' is the key word there. (Most) movie companies, musicians, etc are not willingly providing you with their work for free. It may not deprive them of real property, but it does deprive them of their right to choose whether or not they wish to be paid for their work. Seeing as the vast majority do choose to be paid, you are stealing from them. Fancy semantic games won't get you around this basic fact.

And yes, obviously, this doesn't apply under things like CC licences, free distribution, etc.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:13 PM on June 24


(Most) movie companies, musicians, etc are not willingly providing you with their work for free.

The dude who has a copy of whatever is willingly sending me those bits, is what I meant.

but it does deprive them of their right to choose whether or not they wish to be paid for their work.


Where does the right to be paid for arbitrary actions come from? I'm going to go ride my bike around for a while now, and besides being out of this discussion for a bit, I wonder who is depriving me of my right to choose whether or not I wish to be paid for my hard pedaling effort? What makes "recording a song" worthy of payment while "riding a bike" isn't? It's true that no one else is likely to derive any benefit from my bike ride, but let's say hypothetically I also decided to clean up a mess on the bike path or something like that. Could I demand a toll from anyone passing who benefited from my work?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 12:25 PM on June 24


The dude who has a copy of whatever is willingly sending me those bits, is what I meant.

You mean the (chain of) dude(s) who also had no right to steal it?

It's true that no one else is likely to derive any benefit from my bike ride, but let's say hypothetically I also decided to clean up a mess on the bike path or something like that. Could I demand a toll from anyone passing who benefited from my work?

That's asinine.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:34 PM on June 24


'Willingly' is the key word there. (Most) movie companies, musicians, etc are not willingly providing you with their work for free. It may not deprive them of real property, but it does deprive them of their right to choose whether or not they wish to be paid for their work. Seeing as the vast majority do choose to be paid, you are stealing from them. Fancy semantic games won't get you around this basic fact.

I'm not sure if you are trolling or being willfully ignorant.

As far as a person or corporation's "right to choose whether or not they wish to be paid for their work," that "right" extends from a government granted monopoly. The government decides if and for how long you get to enjoy your "right." If the government were to eliminate copyright tomorrow, would someone be stealing if they downloaded a song?

And calling copyright infringement theft is not correct morally nor legally. Go ahead. Look it up. There are levels of copyright infringement: civil and criminal. Neither one is called theft. If you get busted for downloading songs, you don't get charged with theft. If you get busted selling DVD rips, you don't get charged with theft.

Yeesh.
posted by ryoshu at 1:04 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Sure, there was art before capitalism, but how much of it was available to the masses?

a lot more than you're aware of - mozart's employers may have been aristocrats, but much of his audience was quite a bit lower than that - the audiences in opera houses, theaters and churches were NOT all-aristocrat

this is a myth that is really not well supported by the facts

Someone's going to pay that bill, and if it's the super rich, what incentive do they have to share their pet artists with the masses?

reputation, bragging rights, prestige, vicarious accomplishment in the arts that one doesn't have the talent to achieve oneself - and maybe they just like to share great art

look at how many of our great paintings have been bought by very rich people - only to have them end up in museums for everyone to see
posted by pyramid termite at 1:22 PM on June 24


Theft is by far the more honest term; you are taking something that is not yours.

As TheOnlyCoolTim and ryoshu point out, there is a legal distinction between theft and copyright infringement. Nothing in the Copyright Section of the US Code mentions theft.

"Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner as provided by sections 106 through 122 or of the author as provided in section 106A (a), or who imports copies or phonorecords into the United States in violation of section 602, is an infringer of the copyright or right of the author, as the case may be." [...] "The legal or beneficial owner of an exclusive right under a copyright is entitled, subject to the requirements of section 411, to institute an action for any infringement of that particular right committed while he or she is the owner of it." [emphasis mine]

Compare the terminology used here, here, and here -- note how the Code includes the words "stolen" and "property" in the first two cases, and not in the third? This is because copyright is not property, and copyright infringement is not theft.

There's no question that copyright infringement is illegal, but I think the attempt to conflate it with "theft" is rather specious. Most people make a distinction between these acts, as does the law. Asserting otherwise doesn't change this, no matter how loudly and repeatedly it is done.

on preview: and no matter how many times you say "fuck" while you're doing it!
posted by vorfeed at 1:46 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


But hey, it has been beaten into me time and fucking time again around here that I'm not fucking allowed to have fucking opinions, you fucking douchebag, so I guess this is just yet another one of those fucking times.

You can have all the opinions you want, but repeatedly stating something does not make that something a fact. If you want copyright infringement to be regarded as theft, you can lobby the legislature to change the statutes. I'm sure the RIAA and MPAA would help you.

I'm still not sure how you would get around the entire scarcity issue, though.
posted by ryoshu at 1:57 PM on June 24


Okay, doucheface, I'll use small words so that you understand.

'theft' has a legal definition.

'theft' also has a definition in every day speech.

It should be tolerably obvious to anyone whose IQ is higher than their shoe size that is what I was talking about.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 2:03 PM on June 24


did you know that massingill douche spray is good for skunk smell?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:14 PM on June 24


To back up bonaldi and dirtynumbangelboy, here's an interesting description of what happened to the Hong Kong movie industry when VCD-based piracy hit. New York Times, August 1998:
The filmmakers left in Hong Kong are no less pessimistic. Sitting in the lobby of the Hyatt Hotel in the Wanchai neighborhood, Gordon Chan, a top Hong Kong director who has made movies with Jet Li (''Fist of Legend'') and Jackie Chan (''Thunderbolt''), has all the time in the world, a fact that's very depressing to a director who once cranked out three films a year.

Gordon Chan's most recent movie, the police action drama ''Beast Cops,'' is generally acknowledged as one of the best Hong Kong films of 1998. But that apparently isn't going to do him any good. ''I just talked to the company that released it, and they said they lost money on it,'' says Mr. Chan, a skinny man with a thin black goatee. ''They told me it wasn't my fault, I did a good film. But still it lost money. So what's happening? It's really alarming.''

''We're already cutting staff salary at a very quick rate,'' he continues. ''I cut almost 75 percent of my salary. Remember the scene with the car chase between the Hummer and the bus? We're so poor that we borrowed the Hummer and we borrowed the bus, and there was no budget for any car chase and especially no budget for any car crash. So we had to use special effects to do the scene.

''We finished a film at a little more than 10 million Hong Kong dollars'' -- $1.3 million in American dollars -- ''and still it lost. It's very disappointing, especially when everybody came to me and said, 'Wow, that was great, I saw it on pirate VCD.' That really hurts.''

In 1992, Hong Kong movies took in about $153 million in American dollars at the box office. Though ticket prices have practically doubled here since, annual income has dropped by more than half, to just under $72 million in 1997. As a result, average film budgets have shrunk from several million American dollars to as little as $200,000 or $300,000.

posted by russilwvong at 2:15 PM on June 24


'theft' also has a definition in every day speech.

1. the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.

Nope, still don't get it. Depriving someone of profits for their work hinges on the infringer's intent. Anecdote time:

Years ago I knew a guy that loved to collect pirated software. He had a bookcase full of burned CDs filled with just about every application you could think of. He never sold any of them, but he was a massive copyright infringer. The funny thing was, he never used any of the apps. To him it was a hobby, and also something he could brag about (he was a weird guy).

Now, given that this guy "stole" all of this software, what exactly did he take from these companies? He never would have purchased any of these applications. He had no use for them. He wasn't selling them to anyone. What actual losses did the copyright owners suffer from his "theft?"
posted by ryoshu at 2:21 PM on June 24


It's ironic to watch people cling so desperately to the ability to take for free that which they turn around and proclaim "valueless."

If I see a penny lying in the street, I won't waste the effort to pick it up. And I won't bother defending my so-called "right" to do so when someone asks me to just leave it there.

If something has value, isn't it's worth paying for?
posted by malocchio at 2:37 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


John Robbins on why he won't be writing a book on native C++ debugging:
There are a few reasons: first, book sales are declining, and second, because of piracy. ...

There are many reasons that book sales are declining. In his blog entry, Jeff Atwood says that technology-specific books are dead because everything's online. The plethora of information available online definitely has made it easier to quickly find an example of how to fill out a DataView. For quick and simple things, no book can compete with the immediacy of Google. ...

What I think Jeff has glossed over in his blog entry is that superficial usage certainly does not equal understanding. I have always tried to write my books and columns with a focus on showing the technology, but also discussing all the trials and tribulations as to why I chose the implementation I did when using the technology. A good technical book will give the reader the tools to make informed decisions about the technology after they put the book down and head into implementation. ...

At this point, I have to make a confession. As a company who debugs other people's toughest problems, we don't mind that developers are not buying books and slapping any random code they find on the web in their application. It just means lots more opportunity for Wintellect to grow. However, as a member of the development community and a computer user it worries me. I don't want to sound like a curmudgeon, but I have the distinct feeling that fewer developers have a solid understanding of the technologies they are using than in the past.

The final issue is the one that bothers me the most, piracy. Writing deeply technical books is hugely time consuming and I know that it's crazy talk, but content producers deserve to be compensated for their time if they so choose. For some reason, the bank that holds the loan to my house doesn't accept the argument that since I'm not being paid for some of my work because of piracy, they should let me slide on some of my payments. ...

The piracy of my books is quite stunning. I haven't released an electronic version of the last two books because of it. Frustratingly, that hasn't stopped the pirates. Someone took my second book, scanned in all 850 pages and went to all the trouble of recreating all the screen shots in color! I guess someone's time is free. Mine is not.

Because of fewer developers buying deep technical books, and many people feeling that pirating my books is perfectly legitimate, I've come to the conclusion that writing a native C++ debugging book, or any other book, really isn't in my best interest.
Charles Petzold, who's been writing programming books since the 1980s:
For a $50 book, the royalty might be $2.50 to $3.75 a copy. ...

A programming book might require 6 months to a year of full-time work. (That's my experience, anyway). These days, sales of 10,000 copies over the first year is considered cause for rejoicing. A few years from now, the rejoicing benchmark might be much less. You can do the math yourself. It's pretty bleak.

Those of us still writing programming books often feel increasingly foolish for doing so. The money has dropped so low that the act has become financially irresponsible. Most programming books these days are written by people who have real jobs, either working for someone else or owning their own consulting firm.

I was one of the few exceptions to this rule. Since the summer of 1985, I was able to call myself a "full-time freelance writer." But that's no longer the case. For the first time in 22 years I've been doing some consulting to supplement my ever-dwindling royalty income.
Petzold on eliminating the middleman.
posted by russilwvong at 2:38 PM on June 24


'theft' has a legal definition.

'theft' also has a definition in every day speech.

It should be tolerably obvious to anyone whose IQ is higher than their shoe size that is what I was talking about.


It should also be tolerably obvious that there is significant disagreement as to whether or not the every-day-speech definition of "theft" actually applies to copyright infringement. As I said above, "most people make a distinction between these acts". That is to say, most people see at least some difference between stealing a physical DVD from a store and downloading the same movie, taping it, playing it in public for a fee, or otherwise infringing upon its copyright. You are acting as if your use of the word "theft" in this case should be obvious to any uninvolved observer; sorry, but it's not. If I went up to you and said, "man, my brother got caught stealing a CD!" would you really jump to the conclusion that he'd downloaded the music from the CD without authorization?

There's a reason why we have words like "piracy" and "copyright infringement" to describe these acts!

My main problem with the use of words like "theft" to describe copyright infringement is that it muddies the issue -- here we are arguing over terminology and/or the separate issue of theft, instead of over how we can further the arts in the digital age, without stifling the free flow of information which gives digital communication its great potential. IMHO, this is not a coincidence: the RIAA, MPAA, and other large media interests have pushed the "theft" analogy precisely because they have a powerful stake in not having an honest discussion about the nature of intellectual property and the future of copyright.
posted by vorfeed at 2:53 PM on June 24


The problem is, even if the pro-copying-is-theft side is right...you've already lost. There is just no way, short of pulling the internet's plug, of keeping those bits from being copied once they're created. There aren't enough jails for all the copyright violators these stupid laws create. Bitterly screaming "it's THEFT!" over and over helps nothing. You're just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

So...what do we do now? It's true that artists and industries are suffering, though some are finding other revenue streams. That's all we know, right now. For the near future, many artists are largely screwed if they want to make a living via their art. (But is it more than used to be screwed? Hard to tell. It has never been easy to make a living as an artist. How many have ever made a good living at it?)

Will entire music/film/publishing industries die out leaving nothing but individual producers who may or may not be any good? Maybe. Will governments care enough to subsidize art production that has almost no profit potential? Will ad support make up the slack?

The thing is, though--artists create because they need to. I know, I live with one. He's never made a profit at it. But he can't stop if he wants to stay sane. People like him will keep going, working day jobs and scrounging up whatever they can to produce.

The ones who will have it hardest are not the artists so much as the craftspeople; editors, designers, producers---without profitable art, there's no market for their skills. They'll be stuck in advertising or corporate "communications" or education, or find something else to do.
posted by emjaybee at 3:00 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


Though ticket prices have practically doubled here since, annual income has dropped by more than half, to just under $72 million in 1997.

And here is the next problem. Instead of looking at what the consumers want, the movie studios doubled down and doubled their prices. The bootleggers in my neck of the woods charge $5 for crappy 0day cams with gopher heads popping up. Apparently there is a market for really bad copies of movies. I wonder if there would be a market for releasing VHS quality movies (or hell, go balls out and make them DVD quality) the day the movie is released and sell those for $7? Given the size of my DVD collection, I'd certainly pick some up, even copies of movies that I would normally wait for to hit cable.

But you see, I'm just some crazy "doucheface" that thinks content distributors should try to work with the market rather than legislate their failing business models.

The same goes for the programming books example. O'Reilly's Safari service is a step in the right direction, but at $23 dollars a month for 10 books, I can't justify the expense. Let me have 4 books a month for $10 and I'd pay for it.
posted by ryoshu at 3:04 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


You mean the (chain of) dude(s) who also had no right to steal it?

Often rips are done from legally purchased materials. Artist willingly sells a copy of the work to Bob, Bob willingly sends a copy to Charlie, etc. etc. Now legally there is copyright but what's the qualitative moral difference that would prohibit me sharing an album with my BitTorrent friends but allow me to share an album with my real life friends by having them over to listen to it? In both cases the artist is deprived of his supposed right to receive recompense for others' enjoyment of the work.

It's true that no one else is likely to derive any benefit from my bike ride, but let's say hypothetically I also decided to clean up a mess on the bike path or something like that. Could I demand a toll from anyone passing who benefited from my work?

That's asinine.


Hypothetically the government could decide that to encourage debris-free bike paths it would grant a monopoly on toll collection to whoever cleans the path, just as the original intent of copyright was to encourage creative work by granting a monopoly. Neither are fundamental rights and both are, in fact, problematic because they limit freedom. Every law limits freedom, but this indicates we should be hesitant to legistlate, and intellectual property has rather wide-ranging and troublesome implications.


Charles Petzold, who's been writing programming books since the 1980s:


He complains naught about piracy, only about the shit deal the book retailers and publishers give him but how he's unwilling to do without them. You might attribute the decline in sales to piracy; he doesn't mention it.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 3:22 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


I suspect that they can't afford for it to be cheaper, either, ryoshu. If a newspaper charged what it'd have to to survive without its dying model, a daily issue would be at least $8. That's the problem with the new models: they just don't make enough cash.

It's not all about massive profits and 40% returns; there's genuinely a lot of people that can't make enough of a return to make internet content worthwhile: it's dramatically lowered the price consumers are prepared to pay, but it hasn't affected the cost of creating the content all that much. That's why the whole trope of "man, I'd buy movies if they were only $3.50" is spurious nonsense. I'd buy a Porsche if it was £5000, but that doesn't help Porsche one bit.
posted by bonaldi at 3:23 PM on June 24


there could be another problem that no one talks about - maybe the markets are just saturated - unless a person is after the newest entertainment and information there is already so much out there

how many programming books about old languages does the market really need?

how much entertainment do people really need when they have a tv in the center of their living room that entertains them for pennies an hour?

we're already offered more stuff than we could ever consume in a hundred lifetimes, and yet people say it's piracy that's devaluing movies and music and books - doesn't supply and demand have something to do with it? - why wouldn't our having an incredible glut of you name it have something to do with how things are valued?

more and more, i don't ask myself how much it costs - i ask myself how much time i have to deal with it

the real problem artists have isn't just getting paid - it's convincing anyone why they should even pay attention when there are hundreds of thousands of things that are just as valuable and interesting to pay attention to

artists aren't asking for other people's money - they're asking for other people's time and that's a commodity that no one's making more of - and more products are completing for - and judging from what i'm hearing on the radio and seeing on the net - a lot of us prefer the tried and true to the fresh and new
posted by pyramid termite at 3:39 PM on June 24 [4 favorites]


That's the problem with the new models: they just don't make enough cash.

Then the businesses need to adapt or die. Legislation to protect their old way of doing business is not the proper answer.

It's not all about massive profits and 40% returns; there's genuinely a lot of people that can't make enough of a return to make internet content worthwhile: it's dramatically lowered the price consumers are prepared to pay, but it hasn't affected the cost of creating the content all that much.

Then the easiest answer is to not make the content! Someone will figure out a way to fill in the gap. For years the content distributors lined their pockets while screwing the actual creative people and the consumers. While the costs of producing CDs and DVDs dropped dramatically, the content distributors kept charging the same price and kept the royalty rates absurdly low.

Now that the distribution game is more...democratic, the content distributors are finding out that the old way of doing business is not going to work anymore. Well, fuck them.

If that means we don't get to see "The Love Guru" or "10,000 BC" on the big screen, so be it. Maybe the people working in the industry will have to try harder to not produce absolute crap.
posted by ryoshu at 3:42 PM on June 24 [2 favorites]


TheOnlyCoolTim: Now legally there is copyright but what's the qualitative moral difference that would prohibit me sharing an album with my BitTorrent friends but allow me to share an album with my real life friends by having them over to listen to it?

From the content producer's point of view, it's a difference of scale. Sharing in real life is limited by how many people can fit into your place. It's not going to have much of an impact. Sharing over the Internet is practically unlimited.

[Petzold] complains naught about piracy--

Oops, you're right. See here and here.

emjaybee: The problem is, even if the pro-copying-is-theft side is right...you've already lost. There is just no way, short of pulling the internet's plug, of keeping those bits from being copied once they're created. There aren't enough jails for all the copyright violators these stupid laws create. Bitterly screaming "it's THEFT!" over and over helps nothing.

True enough. What you want to do is provide a legal, cheap, and convenient way for people to download content, like iTunes. When you can download a song that you want for 99 cents from iTunes, why bother installing BitTorrent and hunting around for it? Apple already sells more music than physical retailers (something like $800 million in the last fiscal quarter). I tried out their movie-rental service the other day--they just launched it in Canada and the UK--and was pretty impressed.

If you can get the majority of people to shift towards legal downloads, the existence of a hard core of illegal downloaders won't matter that much.
posted by russilwvong at 3:47 PM on June 24 [1 favorite]


there could be another problem that no one talks about - maybe the markets are just saturated - unless a person is after the newest entertainment and information there is already so much out there
Yes, this is an astonishingly good point.

Then the businesses need to adapt or die. Legislation to protect their old way of doing business is not the proper answer.
Ye-es ... and I think the point that many people are trying to make is that they're going to die. And in a lot of cases, we're going to be worse off because of it. Trying to legislate to protect the copyright foundation isn't trying to protect an "old way", it's trying to protect the only way yet found of doing business with intellectual creations.

The only way found in more than 300 years, by the way. Easy, perfect copies aren't anything new. If you've got a big beasty press, you can run off a duplicate book quicker than I can email it.

Then the easiest answer is to not make the content! Someone will figure out a way to fill in the gap.
Yes to the first, no to the second. Nobody's figured it out. Copyright is, fundamentally, about creating a notional property out of created intangible works. A property that can be sold and licensed. It's what gives content creators the very ability to put a price on their work. Without that ability or something very similar, it's wishful head-in-the-sand thinking that something else might just mebbe come along and hopefully maybe pick up the slack, sort-of perhaps.

If you can get the majority of people to shift towards legal downloads, the existence of a hard core of illegal downloaders won't matter that much.
This is true in certain cases, but the prices of films on iTunes is based on the producers making X from cinemas and Y from DVDs. If the iTunes price had to carry a majority of the load for making the film ... it'd be laughably expensive.
posted by bonaldi at 4:02 PM on June 24


When you can download a song that you want for 99 cents from iTunes, why bother installing BitTorrent and hunting around for it?

Because if $13.99 is too much to pay for a ten-track CD, then $9.99 is probably way too much to pay not to have the same CD.
posted by vorfeed at 4:03 PM on June 24


I wonder if anyone's thought of an ad-supported torrent engine where a back-catalog of a company's music could be put up for free and then licensed out to anyone who wants to use it.

Or a subscription model of same.

Right now I'm involved in a project to get Chinese indie movies up on the net and streaming for a subscription fee. And we are getting submissions like you would not fucking believe. With the rampant piracy here, most small-time distributors are eschewing DVD sales altogether and starting to build alternative distribution. Musicians play tons of live shows, like you wouldn't believe. New venues in Beijing pop up every week. And they're starting to do contract gigs with moviemakers, radio shows, other providers of content that need a customized music component.

How, again, is it impossible to make money off of new distribution models? Can somebody please tell the RIAA already so we don't have to put up with this shit anymore?
posted by saysthis at 4:13 PM on June 24


Because, again, the problem is not that it's impossible to make money, is that it doesn't make enough money. How much could you charge for the ads on this tracker? Since it's filled with that great demographic "people looking for stuff for free", the answer is "not very much".

(Oh, and see those "contract gigs" they're doing? They're all with people who make the money they're paid with from copyright. And "licensing"? Copyright again.)
posted by bonaldi at 4:20 PM on June 24


ryoshu: If that means we don't get to see "The Love Guru" or "10,000 BC" on the big screen, so be it. Maybe the people working in the industry will have to try harder to not produce absolute crap.

I'm not sure I understand your argument. In the Brave New World of "democratic" content distribution, why should they? If they produce a high-quality product, but people aren't willing to pay for it, where's the incentive? If they make a really great movie and that translates into twice as many illegal downloads instead of twice as many sales, what's the point?

I also think you're overestimating the technical problem of cracking down on illegal downloads. There's nothing inherent in Internet technology which prevents government agencies from deploying all sorts of high-powered monitoring tools. A packet travelling on the Internet is no more private than a postcard.

Working out what limitations there should be--is the Internet a public place, in which you have limited privacy rights? or something else?--is a political question, which means going through the messy, time-consuming legislative process.

vorfeed: ... if $13.99 is too much to pay for a ten-track CD, then $9.99 is probably way too much to pay not to have the same CD.

Why buy all the songs on the CD? Usually there's a couple hit songs and the rest is filler, right?

bonaldi: ... the prices of films on iTunes is based on the producers making X from cinemas and Y from DVDs. If the iTunes price had to carry a majority of the load for making the film ... it'd be laughably expensive.

Right. Or we'll see a shift away from big-budget films, towards low-budget films.

I think it'll take some time before we see how well iTunes works for movie rentals. $5 for a new release seems low enough to compete with physical movie rental stores--you get better selection and the convenience of not having to leave the house, vs. the inconvenience of having to deal with the download time and any technical issues. I'd expect both the download time and the technical issues to improve as time goes on.
posted by russilwvong at 4:23 PM on June 24


bonaldi: For instance, the cost of creating a newspaper is paid for by classified advertising, not by readers. It's entirely possible that there will still be a market demand for newspapers, but it'll be uneconomical to produce them. Similarly for films, where the market that pays to see them in theatres is only a small part of the total income required to produce them. People can want things very badly and the market still be unable to provide them.

I understand the point you're making, but I'm still not sure I agree. It's a question of how you define "very badly," I guess.

I think you're correct that, if the advertising and classified-based business model falls, newspapers as we think of them today probably will, too. People are willing to pay a dollar or so for one, but they're not willing to pay what it actually costs to produce. All agreed.

To me that doesn't demonstrate that "[p]eople can want things very badly and the market still [is] unable to provide them," it demonstrates that people don't want newspapers that badly. If they wanted newspapers that badly, they'd pay the $6/day (or whatever) that they actually cost to produce, absent ad revenue. That people won't do that is an indication that they don't care that much about having a newspaper. They'd see that price, think about what else they could do with the money, and decide on something else. That's a fair and valid decision, it's one individuals ought to be able to make, and it's one the market will respond to by ceasing to produce newspapers and instead producing things that people actually want (by which I mean, are willing to pay to have produced).

The demand for portable, low-cost entertainment and information (what a newspaper provides to the consumer) won't go away, but it will wait for someone to fill it at a price that people are willing to pay, using a business model that's sustainable under prevailing economic conditions. And when they do that, they'll make a lot of money. I don't know exactly how they'll do it -- if I did, I'd be out doing it and preparing to rake in the dough -- but if there's a way to do it and make a buck, somebody (actually, many somebodys) will. And if it's not possible, it's probably a good sign that it shouldn't be done at all.

Given that, historically anyway, the market seems to do a much better (or at least more efficient) job setting prices and allocating productive resources than any top-down method, this looks like the way things ought to work. The closer we can make the cost of goods equate to their actual cost of production, the better and more well-informed decisions consumers can make.

A caveat: there's an obvious exception in the case of so-called public goods, which as a society we want to have available but nobody is willing to pay for individually; in that case I'm not against subsidization, as long as it's done in the most direct way possible, so it's subject to the most public scrutiny and review. E.g., if we really want to keep news organizations around even though they're not profitable, rather than propping up their shoddy business model by suppressing competition (the frequent solution), let's just fund them directly from taxes, a la the BBC or VoA, and quit deceiving ourselves. At least that would force a discussion of how much we're really interested in paying for the service. I think a similar argument would apply to the fate of "musicians" as a class if recording industry were to fail completely. I'd rather see subsidies go through the front door of direct payments rather than the back door of protective legislation.
posted by Kadin2048 at