Israeli paper publishes Obama's stolen Western Wall prayer

July 27, 2008 5:13 AM

Israeli paper publishes Obama's stolen Western Wall prayer New York, July 26 : Democratic presidential hopeful Barack Obama wrote a prayer in Jerusalem this week - and left it at Judaism's holiest of sites, the Western Wall. As Barack placed his prayer in the cracks of the Western Wall, someone came from behind and stole it. That pilfered prayer has now been published in an Israeli newspaper, exposing to the world a personal plea for God to help him "guard against pride and despair."
posted by Postroad (237 comments total)

He asked for a pony.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:16 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

May I suggest adding the 'ohno!' tag to this? It's appropriate.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:17 AM on July 27

"Lord- Protect my image, and make this note innocuous enough that, if found, it will re-enforce my carefully-plotted appearance of piety. Please bless my PR people."
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:18 AM on July 27 [54 favorites]

As prayers go, sounds like a pretty good one to me.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:18 AM on July 27 [4 favorites]

But it is reassuring, somehow, to know that Mayor Curley is still as mean-spirited and cynical as ever.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:20 AM on July 27 [27 favorites]

But, what sort of person steals a prayer? Damn.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:20 AM on July 27 [41 favorites]

Thousands upon thousands of people leave their prayers at the Western Wall. It is so petty and ugly that some kid decided he should go and scoop up the man's prayer and take it to get some kind of news bite.
posted by cavalier at 5:21 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

"But, what sort of person steals a prayer?"

A Jew.

:D
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:22 AM on July 27 [18 favorites]

WELL, IT WAS!!!
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:22 AM on July 27 [8 favorites]

That seems a bit like bugging a confessional. And done by a seminary student, eh?
posted by pracowity at 5:24 AM on July 27

A Jew.

Haha! (I think...)

Should I have known I was setting myself up for an answer like that? I guess if I had thought in those terms ("racial" or religious generalizations) I would've known I was being a straight man. Such an answer never occurred to me, however.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:26 AM on July 27

Oh, nooooo, of course not, flapjax. ;)
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 5:31 AM on July 27

I just came here to check that the internet works.


Ok guys, that's a...
posted by GeckoDundee at 5:33 AM on July 27

"Safari can’t open the page “http://story.israelherald.com/index.php/ct/9/cid/f81a4d9d561822ee/id/386656/cs/1/” because it could not connect to the server “story.israelherald.com”."
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 AM on July 27

Heh. Think what you will, Henry!
posted by flapjax at midnite at 5:36 AM on July 27

I love Obama, and i still think this was made to happen. Reverend Jackson was made to happen. And others i must have missed. Its all good if his later actions reflect his words. However the FISA vote showed us the maximum size limit of his balls. He won't fix the fundamental issues and you people will still have to revolt by yourselves.

There's Obama for you.
posted by CautionToTheWind at 5:37 AM on July 27 [9 favorites]

Good evening, and welcome to the Four Season's Hades. Checking in?

Yes, reservation for Jacob Schulevitz.

Very well, I'll need your credit card and a form of ID...let's see...Schulevitz. Ah, there you are. Thanks for being part of our membership rewards program, I do see that you're a Glowing-White-Hot-Platinum status...and I do have your complimentary upgrade to our molten member's floor and a Surface-of-the-Sun suite available.

Thanks, I had to steal a prayer from the holiest site in Judaism for that.

Ah, I see! Well we do hope you'll enjoy your stay. I show your check-out date as never. Belze-hop! Would you help Mr. Schulevitz to his room please?
posted by allkindsoftime at 5:38 AM on July 27 [16 favorites]

Wow, that is just a totally new level of dickery. Both from the dude who stole the prayer and the newspaper that published it. I think to get more dick you gotta start molesting children or something. Good job, guy!
posted by schroedinger at 5:56 AM on July 27

And you people who are claiming this is all a stunt are almost as dick as the guy who did this. Jesus Christ, does nobody believe in decency any more?
posted by schroedinger at 5:58 AM on July 27 [5 favorites]

Does nobody believe in competency in democrat politicians any more?
posted by CautionToTheWind at 6:03 AM on July 27

Jesus Christ, does nobody believe in decency any more?

Oh, I believe in it, but I'm also aware that there's a damn shortage of it. As far as whether or not this thing was staged, hmm... could've been. I'd have no way of knowing for sure, but, could've been.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:05 AM on July 27

I do see that you're a Glowing-White-Hot-Platinum status...and I do have your complimentary upgrade to our molten member's floor and a Surface-of-the-Sun suite available.

Coincidentally, that's a pretty good description of the weather the one time I visited Israel.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:05 AM on July 27

The Obama campaign has declined to comment on the note.

Seems to me the Obama team are at least trying to take the high road, schroedinger.
posted by orange swan at 6:06 AM on July 27

"... Jesus Christ, does nobody believe in decency any more?"
posted by schroedinger at 8:58 AM on July 27 [+] [!]

I'm no rabbi, but maybe this is just JC or God or $INSERT_DEITY helping him to "guard against pride and despair." Because, otherwise, that prayer is periously close in spirit to one that has been prayed there before.
posted by paulsc at 6:10 AM on July 27

Historians, or Newshounds, has this ever happened before?
posted by IndigoJones at 6:19 AM on July 27

Wow, every possible way to interpret that story results in the conclusion that at least one person involved in the story is the king asshole. This is amazing, but unbelievable. There can only be one king asshole.
posted by TwelveTwo at 6:20 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

Seems to me the Obama team are at least trying to take the high road

They're just relieved that it wasn't self-addressed.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:23 AM on July 27 [8 favorites]

To save others the trouble of looking up paulsc's reference: Luke 18:10–12.
posted by gleuschk at 6:29 AM on July 27

paulsc, I'm not sure it is. All three requests by Obama seem pretty generic. "Guard against pride" may seem like a prideful statement itself - but on the other hand, pride is one of the worst character traits explored in the Bible, in both the Torah and the Gospels.
posted by Picklegnome at 6:30 AM on July 27

Your current president's prayer would've probably read like a letter to Santa.
posted by slimepuppy at 6:31 AM on July 27 [44 favorites]

It's a win-win for the big O. To the left, the message is that religion should be a private affair. To the more religious swing-voters, the message is that Obama does have a humble, God-fearing side.

Also, I love how most American papers reported the story, complete with horrified reactions by all denominations of rabbinic authorities that someone would steal, let along publish a private prayer form the wall. But the NYPost decided to show the ACTUAL LETTER on their front page!
posted by ericbop at 6:31 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

Part of me is glad it was such a thoughtful, reverent prayer.
Other parts of me wish it said this: "Allahu Akbar! God damn America! Just kidding."
Or maybe this.
posted by naju at 6:32 AM on July 27 [3 favorites]

I prefer Stephen Colbert's version, which was, if I remember correctly : "Please, God, don't let Jesse Jackson cut my nuts off".
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:42 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Apparently nothing is sacred anymore.
posted by Dave Faris at 6:42 AM on July 27

According to this little tale related by Rabbi Shraga Simmons, though, it's not the first time a prayer from the Wailing Wall has been read by someone other than G-d.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:43 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

What normally happens to the notes left there? They must have to periodically clean them out... anyone?
posted by Meatbomb at 6:46 AM on July 27

They must have to periodically clean them out... anyone?

Meatbomb, read that little article I linked to in the comment just above yours.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:56 AM on July 27

Or, here's the pertinent bit:

Because of the great volume, every so often, all the notes are removed from the Wall and buried, along with other holy objects that are not being used anymore.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 6:57 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

His prayers have already been answered. He's running against John McCain for fuck's sake.
posted by baphomet at 6:59 AM on July 27 [14 favorites]

Pagan sacrifice at the volcano.
posted by netbros at 6:59 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

From flapjax's link : "God had good eyesight"

Interesting use of the past tense.
posted by Dave Faris at 6:59 AM on July 27

I used to work in a movie theater right down the street from Marilyn Monroe's grave in Westwood, which is tucked into a tiny cemetery surrounded by high-rise buildings, and also contains the graves of Natalie Wood, Truman Capote, and the girl from Poltergeist. People left notes at Miss Monroe's grave all the time, and, I feel guilty about this now, but I would steal them before work and read them when I had a spare moment. I was just unendurably curious about what sort of notes people would write to the burial vault of a long-dead actress.

Mostly they were love notes, of a sort, praising Marilyn's beauty and her talent as an actress. Some included detailed descriptions of where the author of the note came from -- and they came from around the world -- and the planning it took to make this trip, and how long they planned it, sometimes including information about how long the flight took and how hard it was to find the cemetery.

A few notes actually contained detailed autobiographies from troubled people, discussing their experiences with drugs addiction, or their bad experiences with men who beat them, or the homophobic violence they suffered from their parents. These notes rarely seemed intended for Ms. Monroe herself, but were obviously just written in a confessional torrent, because they desperately needed someone to hear this story.

This is why it is a good thing I don't live near the Western Wall. Curiosity and boredom can be a toxic combination, and it's easy to convince yourself that, you know, Marilyn is dead, so she's not going to be reading these notes, or, I suppose, God already knows what you wrote. It doesn't make it right, but I would surprised if it didn't turn out a lot of people steal notes from the Wailing Wall, just because they can't resist. And a prayer from Obama? Man, if you're already a junkie for these sort of confessionals, how could you resist that?

I eventually wrote my own note for Marilyn. All it said was "I'm sorry I stole all your notes." I really am sorry, by the way.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:04 AM on July 27 [84 favorites]

Interesting use of the past tense.

Well, at God's age, you know, He probably needs reading glasses, at least.
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:05 AM on July 27

I find myself picturing a Not Necessarily The News skit:

(loose, jazzy music plays)
Camera from distance shows real footage of Barack Obama about to put a prayer in the wall.
Fake closeup shows him opening it. It reads "please let the White Sox take the World Series".
Distant camera shows him finishing putting the prayer in the wall.
Canned laughter.
posted by tinkertown at 7:09 AM on July 27 [4 favorites]

And you people who are claiming this is all a stunt are almost as dick as the guy who did this. Jesus Christ, does nobody believe in decency any more?

For the record, I am not claiming this is a calculated stunt by the Obama campaign. But I'll bet you anything that a PR hack actually wrote the content of the note, to get the best possible publicity IN THE EVENT that someone was crass enough to remove the note from the wall.
posted by Mayor Curley at 7:10 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

at least it wasn't anything he'd be ashamed of now...
posted by krautland at 7:12 AM on July 27

Astrozombie: it's easy to convince yourself that, you know, Marilyn is dead, so she's not going to be reading these notes, or, I suppose, God already knows what you wrote. is dead, so he's not going to be reading these notes.

FTFY
posted by symbioid at 7:13 AM on July 27

The people that stole it and printed it are Grade A fuck-knuckles. The good news, though, is that Obama('s people) would have written it with the knowledge that it was going to be published and could specifically tailor the message. As ericbop pointed out above it's win-win for Obama.
posted by meech at 7:15 AM on July 27

For the record, I am not claiming this is a calculated stunt by the Obama campaign. But I'll bet you anything that a PR hack actually wrote the content of the note, to get the best possible publicity IN THE EVENT that someone was crass enough to remove the note from the wall.

I'd be more inclined to agree with you if he'd written something really profound. As it stands, I'm inclined to think this is exactly what it looks like, and that someone is a real scumbag (even if...my GOD, I can't imagine how tempting it would've been to grab the note and read it...selling it to a news outlet is something else altogether, though).
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:17 AM on July 27

If the Obama campaign people did *not* envisage this note being read, then they are dumber than anyone in the Bush administration, and that is pretty dumb. Having said that, it doesn't mean it's a set-up, but you cover all your bases, you know.
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 7:17 AM on July 27

Birthday wish rules apply here. Now that it has been said out loud, it will not come true.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 7:17 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Jesus Christ, does nobody believe in decency any more?

In politics? Nope. I expect nothing less than the most base and vile conduct from all concerned.
posted by Kadin2048 at 7:26 AM on July 27

so if someone could steal a note from obama right after he put it in the wall and get away with it, just how easy would it have been to do something else?

that's the real story here - someone's doing a lousy job of security
posted by pyramid termite at 7:27 AM on July 27

paulsc:

Obama's prayer seem similar in spirit to the tax collector's prayer ("Lord. help me, a sinner"), if a bit more wordy. I can't see how you could make the case that asking for help with his sin is at all like the Pharisee's prayer.

Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins, and has, for centuries been considered the sin that caused the fall of Lucifer, who began his career as the head angel before rebelling against God. If the prayer is genuine, it is heartening that Obama recognizes that the greatest danger to himself is the pride that comes with great power.
posted by eustacescrubb at 7:27 AM on July 27

But, what sort of person steals a prayer?

I think the same sort of person who publishes a prayer in their newspaper or posts a link to that article on Metafilter.
posted by Citizen Premier at 7:29 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

But I'll bet you anything that a PR hack actually wrote the content of the note

Yeah. This Obama guy is pretty uncooth. I can't imagine him writing anything near the level of pristine wordplay and flowing discourse found in that thousand word missive. Good work, my good man. Good work.
posted by cashman at 7:34 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

But, what sort of person steals a prayer?

someone who's smart enough to realize that a news outlet will (quietly) pay quite a lot of money for it.

maybe, just maybe, and I don't really believe in this hypothesis, there may also be a political motivation -- the insane hope that the note would be embarrassing or even read something like "ALLAH IS GREAT KILL ALL THE JEWS DESTROY AMERICA GO AL QAEDA GO BWAHAHAHA". in that case, not only the note would have been worth millions, but it would also have destroyed Obama's career had his campaign been so dumb as not to quietly buy it back.
posted by matteo at 7:42 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

they got his blackberry?
posted by es_de_bah at 7:46 AM on July 27

Can't somebody for once realize that something is not a PR gambit? The context is that right-wing Orthodox Jews in Israel distrust Obama, because he's prefers to let American foreign policy be dictated more by sanity and pragmatism than by apocalyptic fundamentalist Zionism (whether of the Jewish or Christian Right variety). When Obama appeared at the wall, he was heckled by Orthodox rabbis, one of whom yelled "Jerusalem is not for sale." It's not much of a stretch to argue that the seminary student who stole Obama's prayer was probably studying under one of those rabbis.
posted by jonp72 at 7:55 AM on July 27 [18 favorites]

Where are the intellectual property police?
posted by srboisvert at 8:00 AM on July 27

"A Jew.

Haha! (I think...)"

Seriously, they are reporting that it was a Jewish seminary student.

He apparently tried selling the prayer to the Maariv Daily for 5000 Shekels, but they Jewed him down to 3000.

(Such a bargain!)
posted by markkraft at 8:03 AM on July 27 [3 favorites]

Well I bet Obama's thankful he left out the part about "Forgive me for the man I killed in Tulsa. And the hookers. And the blow."

Seriously, it was a good prayer. And the people who stole it and published it? Suck.
posted by miss lynnster at 8:05 AM on July 27

But I'll bet you anything that a PR hack actually wrote the content of the note

Protecting his family...forgiving his sins...guarding against pride and despair...right and just...instrument of His will...

Yeah, that's exactly the kind of slick-talking angle a PR hack would take. HAVE THEY NO SHAME?!!

Just for the record, Mayor Curley, what do you think Obama would have written, you know, if he didn't let his PR people do all his talking for him? (And, wow...it really would have to be ALL his talking, amiright?)

(BTW, how long do you think it'll take before some right-wing blogger notices the word "your" in the last sentence wasn't capitalized and proclaims it evidence that Obama's an athiest?)
posted by PlusDistance at 8:05 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

seems unlikely to me that this is a stunt; just imagine the fallout if the kid who stole the prayer later revealed that it had been the Obama campaign's idea. seems possible that the PR people wrote the note. but what seems overwhelmingly most likely is that the words are actually Obama's but that his PR people told him to be careful what he wrote, as there is a nonzero chance it would eventually be read.
posted by 256 at 8:10 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

Today at PostSecret: George W. Bush's deepest, darkest secret revealed.
posted by Knappster at 8:18 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

What are the theological rammifications here? Do birthday wish rules (as mentioned by dances with sneetches) apply? Now that it's been read by someone other than The Almighty, will it come true? And what about the guy who stole the prayer - is this like breaking a mirror or stepping under a ladder where he'll be condemned to seven years bad luck?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:28 AM on July 27

Thank you for the observation, jonp72, I had not seen any media paint it in that context. At least it establishes a plausible motive more than stupid greed.
posted by cavalier at 8:28 AM on July 27

Just for the record, Mayor Curley, what do you think Obama would have written, you know, if he didn't let his PR people do all his talking for him?

I don't think he would have been doing it all if his handlers hadn't coordinated it. I think Mr. Obama is too smart to be as religious as he is portrayed, but he pretends to be wicked religious to pander. Can we at least agree that Obama knows that a crumbling wall is not God's fax machine?
posted by Mayor Curley at 8:36 AM on July 27 [5 favorites]

Look, he clearly has some religious feeling. And the Western Wall is a pretty imposing place. I'm hardly the most religious person in the world, but I've felt a little awed when I've been in some Buddhist temples or churches. If other people feel that it's some kind of hotline to heaven, why wouldn't he want to share the experience.

He wouldn't be in Israel at all if his handlers hadn't arranged it and he didn't feel the campaign demanded it. Of course he was playing for the camera. But does that have to negate the fact that some of his emotion might be real?

Can we at least agree that Obama wants his family to be protected?
posted by PlusDistance at 8:44 AM on July 27 [5 favorites]

No. He's a demo-RAT, so he hates all normal, straight families including his own.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:49 AM on July 27

Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.

- Ambrose Bierce
posted by furtive at 8:55 AM on July 27 [10 favorites]

I love Obama, and i still think this was made to happen.

I don't love Obama (though he's clearly superior to the competition), but I think anyone who thinks this was "made to happen" is as much a nutball as the 9/11 conspiracy theorists and the GOOGLE RON PAUL folks.
posted by languagehat at 9:08 AM on July 27 [12 favorites]

Citing handlers for their supposed advice on a personal prayer at the wee hours of the morning? Now *THAT* would require a leap of faith to believe, under the circumstances! I mean, the guy writes his own major speeches, but he can't be trusted to write a simple prayer?!

And maybe it's me, but it seems unfair / insulting / ignorant to suggest that you can't be intelligent and religious at the same time.

Very few people question Bush's faith... but is his faith okay, because most of us consider him less intelligent?

I tend to think that Barack Obama is religious like Thomas Jefferson was religious. It shapes his idealism, grounds his beliefs, informs his sense of what is right and just, and gives him a sense of humility... but it doesn't prevent him from viewing science and government as something largely seperate from such beliefs.

Barack Obama isn't afraid to discuss religion, mention God, or reach out to religious constituencies, both as far as meeting with them and through his choice of words... but so did Jefferson. Was Jefferson pandering too, or just a realist?

"Can we at least agree that Obama knows that a crumbling wall is not God's fax machine?"

Can we agree that a believer might possibly feel that God hears all prayers?!

Religion and spirituality is something that is very personal to people, and it is a rare individual who lives an exceptional, successful life without getting an ineffable sense of fate and destiny.

From that point, it's a relatively easy leap to call whatever that guiding force is God.
posted by markkraft at 9:12 AM on July 27 [14 favorites]

but they Jewed him down to 3000.

Eh, you know, not so much of this maybe.
posted by cortex at 9:17 AM on July 27 [25 favorites]

"I think anyone who thinks this was "made to happen" is as much a nutball as the 9/11 conspiracy theorists and the GOOGLE RON PAUL folks"

and while you're at it, GET OFF MY LAWN!
posted by Henry C. Mabuse at 9:37 AM on July 27

What are the theological rammifications here? Do birthday wish rules (as mentioned by dances with sneetches) apply?

No, it's still a prayer.

Now that it's been read by someone other than The Almighty, will it come true?

A prayer is a prayer is a prayer. It's up to the Almighty to decide what to do with it.

And what about the guy who stole the prayer - is this like breaking a mirror or stepping under a ladder where he'll be condemned to seven years bad luck?

No, but he's a dick for all eternity.
posted by dw at 9:41 AM on July 27

Do birthday wish rules ... apply?

No, but the notes in the Wall are more entertaining when you apply the fortune cookie rules:


And make me an instrument of your will...in bed.
posted by horsewithnoname at 9:41 AM on July 27 [4 favorites]

"Made you look."
posted by ColdChef at 9:43 AM on July 27 [6 favorites]

Microphone picks up private conversation between Tory leader David Cameron and Barack Obama.
posted by swift at 9:44 AM on July 27

"... If the prayer is genuine, it is heartening that Obama recognizes that the greatest danger to himself is the pride that comes with great power."
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:27 AM on July 27

"If the prayer is genuine," indeed. I guess it's good, then, that he wrote it on King David Hotel stationary, and placed it discreetly, while posing for photos in front of the world press, while on a tour to enhance his personal political stature. Because otherwise, I could have had problems understanding how genuine and sincere his concern about overreaching pride really is.

And, of course, it was completely unforeseeable on the part of this professional politician's paid PR staff, that someone would grab such a note and run with it, after he placed it during an arranged photo opportunity. I mean, really, what are the chances?
posted by paulsc at 9:58 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Another interesting bit of context is that the Israeli newspaper Haaretz ranked Barack Obama lowest, as the worst major party presidential candidate possible on the Israel issue. When you add in the rumors circulating in the United States that Obama is a secret "Manchurian candidate" Muslim (some of which must have been absorbed by American-born Israelis), the idea that an ultra-Orthodox student would steal Obama's prayer from the Wailing Wall looking for evidence of anti-Israel bias isn't so odd. When you consider that the winner of the Israel Factor survey was Rudy Giuliani, I'm thinking that Obama's mediocre ranking on the scale (5.12 out of a scale from 1 to 10) is actually a point in his favor.
posted by jonp72 at 9:58 AM on July 27

the prayer really read: "if i looking for frog. him name is hopkin green frog..."
posted by punkbitch at 10:06 AM on July 27 [4 favorites]

jonp72 One of the interesting things is that "mainstream" political thought as defined by the corporate media and what the actual majority of Americans think are often quite different.

The overwhelming majority of Americans (71%) think that the US should be neutral in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That POV is forbidden, described as well outside the mainstream, by the corporate media.

Even suggesting that US policy should simply be "evenhanded", as Howard Dean did in 2003 provoked a shitstorm, with dozens of Democrats calling for his head and all the major press declaring that Dean had gone off his meds.

Similarly the vast majority of Americans support getting US forces out of Iraq quickly and sticking to a timeline. That view is also routinely derided in the corporate media and routinely held up as an example of radical left wing lunacy.

82% of Americans favor direct, no prerequisite, negotiations with Iran, and you'll note that yet again according to the corporate media that view is heresy, far left insanity that only dirty fucking hippies contemplate between their rounds of toasting tofu over burning American flags.

So, yeah, I'm thinking that Obama's willingness to take a less than rabidly Zionist approach to US/Israeli relations is very much a point in his favor. Startlingly the US public generally likes a bit of sanity, from its politicians.
posted by sotonohito at 10:23 AM on July 27 [15 favorites]

^ 'cept in years divisible by 4.
posted by yort at 10:36 AM on July 27

Why are we so upset about a piece of paper bearing [the usual] bland and inoffensive religious sentiment? If Obama is like any other candidate (or any other busy person, for that matter) he constantly scribbles down notes, sometimes sensitive, that are eventually swept into the wastepaper basket. If you don't want something to be read, don't write it down (and this is a good rule no matter how much privacy/confidentiality you think ought to apply). Is the only reason we're supposed to be upset that somebody broke - in this case, seemingly harmlessly - some religious taboo?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:54 AM on July 27

I think Mr. Obama is too smart to be as religious as he is portrayed, but he pretends to be wicked religious to pander.

I can't see what the difference is between this and the people who think Obama is secretly a Muslim. Sure, he says he's Christian, and he talks about his faith as through it has been a real and significant influence in his life, and he even delivers sermons from time to time, but all that is a smokescreen for what he really is--an [agnostic/Muslim/anti-Christ]. (Choose one or two based on your own personal preconceptions.)
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:57 AM on July 27 [10 favorites]

You know, I'm far from Barack Obama's biggest fan, but the lengths to which people will go to and the mental contortions they will subject themselves to in order to believe bad things about Barack Obama are pretty impressive.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:59 AM on July 27 [10 favorites]

Wow paulsc, you're really shitty at this whole being a christian thing.
posted by afu at 11:04 AM on July 27

"Wow paulsc, you're really shitty at this whole being a christian thing."
posted by afu at 2:04 PM on July 27

Well, to be, um, clear then, I guess it was the right week to take up Scientology.
posted by paulsc at 11:13 AM on July 27

johnp72 -
1) That's from '06.
2) It's not a survey, it's the opinion of a group of right-wing pundits assembled by Haaretz.
3) Obama's only the lowest if by "lowest" you mean "not lowest". 5.12 Obama, 3.5 Hagel, 5 Clark, 4.86 Vilsack, 5 Feingold (tally) Interestingly, Condoleeza Rice came in at an anemic 5.38.

Here are some other completely unbiased articles from the same columnist:
ANALYSIS 37: What's wrong with Obama?
ANALYSIS 36: Easy choices: McCain better than Obama, Clinton better than what's-his-name
ANALYSIS 35: Clinton or McCain? That's a tough one
ANALYSIS 34: Is Obama is pro-Palestinian? Will McCain will appoint James Baker?
ANALYSIS 33: If Giuliani is out, will it be Clinton or McCain?
ANALYSIS 31: Let McCain deal with Iran
posted by swell at 11:14 AM on July 27

I don't think he's religious, but I think the sentiment expressed in the prayer is probably sincere.
posted by empath at 11:16 AM on July 27

The idea that there are people here who just don't believe that Obama is religious is baffling to me. Any such person, in my view, is so far out of touch with any semblance of reality and/or rational thought that I really, really hope they don't vote on anything more important than whether you get doughnuts or bagels at work on Friday morning.
posted by jock@law at 11:21 AM on July 27 [4 favorites]

Panorama of Obama in Berlin
posted by empath at 11:23 AM on July 27 [2 favorites]

I used to work as a Nanny, this is the same note he always put under his pillow for the tooth fairy. He was a serious little boy.
posted by Oyéah at 11:27 AM on July 27

jock -- i couldn't support Obama if I genuinely thought he was religious, in the sense of being a 'true believer.' I'm sure he has a religious side. I'm an atheist, and I still have vestiges of Catholic thought that crop up from time to time. But he joined his church for political reasons. And he never really expressed the zeal typical of late converts. He has said he never abandoned his doubt. I really think he was more inspired by the way that Wright was able to use Christian allegory to further a political agenda than by the allegory itself.
posted by empath at 11:40 AM on July 27

empath: Then don't support Obama.
posted by jock@law at 11:42 AM on July 27

I'm so thankful to have Metafilter so that I can skim through one of these intellectual pissing matches any time I need help remembering why liberalism is basically fucking impotent in America.
posted by nanojath at 11:44 AM on July 27 [7 favorites]

The idea that there are people here who just don't believe that Obama is religious is baffling to me.

You've got some insight into his heart that proves his religion isn't a politcally expedient show like many other politicians'?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:48 AM on July 27 [3 favorites]

Is Barack Obama the Messiah?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:48 AM on July 27

Barack Obama Tiger Beat Cover Clinches Slumber Party Vote
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:53 AM on July 27 [1 favorite]

TheOnlyCoolTim: How about the fact, oh, say, that he converted well before even running for state office in one of the most liberal and most Catholic cities in the country? Wrong timing, wrong religion, wrong direction. His actions are the opposite of what you'd expect in a political ploy.
posted by jock@law at 12:03 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

No, see, jock@law, you don't understand: we don't take religious people seriously here at MetaFilter, so in order to take Obama seriously (which we have to do because he's our only hope against the Evil Empire), we have to believe that he's not religious. And when I say "believe," I mean "believe against all the evidence," just like religious people believe in God.

Oops, did I say that out loud?
posted by languagehat at 12:14 PM on July 27 [12 favorites]

Also, I love how most American papers reported the story, complete with horrified reactions by all denominations of rabbinic authorities that someone would steal, let along publish a private prayer form the wall. But the NYPost decided to show the ACTUAL LETTER on their front page!

There's a mistake in your reply. The NY Post isn't an real newspaper.
posted by Mikey-San at 12:17 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

This Obama guy is pretty uncooth. I can't imagine him writing anything near the level of pristine wordplay and flowing discourse found in that thousand word missive.

uncooth. LOL!
posted by quonsar at 12:18 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

an newspaper?
. . . and i'll never write for one
posted by Mikey-San at 12:19 PM on July 27

I am not surprised that a Jewish seminary student did this. And every young Orthodox man is a "seminary student" - it's code for "unemployed schmuck who goes to shul all day instead of feeding his wife and twelve kids." But for those bastards, no prayers are important except their own. God hears no one but them, and even most Jews aren't Jewish enough in their eyes, never mind this American Muslim.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:26 PM on July 27

You know, the evidence is pretty strong that he's a fairly decent guy who's got some pretty good insights on some things. The mental contortions that some folks upthread are going through are truly breathtaking; things that he's doing that they'd approve of must be a conspiracy to sucker them into liking him. The fact that he's Christian, for instance, is an obvious sign that Christians shouldn't like him. Say what, again?

We've gotten so far into the Republican versus Democrat thing that if someone's playing for the wrong team, but professes ideas you like, well, it's all a trick, because obviously he's evil. He's on the wrong team, so he has to be.

I find it baffling to watch these mental gymnastics upthread. He's on the wrong team, therefore evil, therefore anything he says or does is evidence of evil. The better any action looks, the stronger evidence it becomes that the man is deceptive. You can't be a good candidate and be a Democrat, so if one does, that means he's worse.

That's messed up. That kind of thinking, if it continues down the path it's going, will eventually tear the country apart. The welfare of political parties has become more important than the welfare of the nation as a whole; the opposing party, and people who support it, are evil by definition.

If we don't back away from that idea, we're going to end up in violent conflict.
posted by Malor at 12:40 PM on July 27 [5 favorites]

Obama's Secret Rescue Mission
posted by homunculus at 12:44 PM on July 27

That kind of thinking, if it continues down the path it's going, will eventually tear the country apart.

Yes, yes, we'll end up a divided nation of color-coded states, where every political contest boils down to a few "battleground" states where the margins of victory are so narrow that they could "theoretically" be swayed by things like hacking electronic voting machines, or aggressively suppressing minority votes, or tactical gerrymandering of electoral districts! A complete breakdown of democracy! A cowed and complacent populace, distracted by threats of terrorism, real and (more frequently) imagined, a press not so much partisan as dulled and dumbed down beyond the point of being capable of examining anything beyond the depth of the spoon-fed status quo's carefully crafted talking points, while meanwhile a class of tame intellectuals mill along, preoccupied with the latest lifestyle gadgetry and clinging to their precarious positions in the shrinking middle class, hopelessly holding to the belief that they are somehow contributing to the betterment of the clearly eroding conditions by participating in endless high-minded discussions in politically meaningless electronically mediated forums. That would be terrible! Quick, somebody do something!
posted by nanojath at 12:54 PM on July 27 [9 favorites]

How much weight can Barack Obama lift?
posted by horsewithnoname at 12:54 PM on July 27

In Germany, politicians in front of large, shouting crowds evoke images that nobody wants to see repeated.
- Susan Nieman, NYTimes OpEd, 7/26/08

Hey! You know who ELSE was a politician in front of a large, shouting crowd of Germans?
posted by swell at 12:59 PM on July 27

Obama's Call to Renewal Keynote, 2006
posted by niles at 1:03 PM on July 27

Hey! You know who ELSE was a politician in front of a large, shouting crowd of Germans?

Ronald Reagan?
posted by homunculus at 1:34 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

Hey! You know who ELSE was a politician in front of a large, shouting crowd of Germans?

jfk?
posted by pyramid termite at 1:54 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Konrad Adenauer?
posted by languagehat at 1:57 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

And every young Orthodox man is a "seminary student" - it's code for "unemployed schmuck who goes to shul all day instead of feeding his wife and twelve kids."

Actually, they generally get paid to study all day.
posted by lullaby at 2:13 PM on July 27

This Obama guy is turing out to be a real dimwit. He writes a sappy prayer when any idiot in his position would have left a blank piece of paper.

A degree from Harvard means about as little as a degree from Yale apparently.
posted by three blind mice at 2:14 PM on July 27

Hey! You know who ELSE was a politician in front of a large, shouting crowd of Germans?

Ronald Reagan?

Like many other examples of Reagan hagiography, the reality is quite different from the recently rewritten history. JFK drew about 120,000 and Obama drew about 200,000. Reagan's Brandenburg Gate speech only drew about 20,000, many of whom were vocal protesters booing the speech. The night before 25,000 protesters marched in opposition to Reagan's militant interventionist policies. Reagan was just as unpopular if not more so than GWB in most of Europe.
posted by JackFlash at 2:23 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

nanojath: I meant 'armed conflict', not just arguing.
posted by Malor at 2:24 PM on July 27

"But, what sort of person steals a prayer?"

A Jew.

That is the kind of disgusting, knuckle-dragging, antisemitic crap we do NOT need here at Metafilter. The idea that a Jew would steal something simply because he's a Jew is -- well, it's beneath contempt. We would NEVER steal a man's prayer out of the Wailing Wall!!!!

We would, however, charge him rent on the crack.
posted by PlusDistance at 2:30 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Hey Jesus, it's me Barry.
Remember that time on the beach when there was only one set of footprints? WTF?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 2:36 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

To be fair, Obama (who had of course the advantage of speaking in a united Berlin) drew a crowd much larger than Reagan did.

To comment on the larger issue -- after the Rev. Wright disaster (and it was a disaster, face it, even if you're one of those who think that Obama's shit doesn't stink) religion is quite obviously a delicate topic for the Obama campaign -- you don't want anyone to believe the "he's a Muslim" chain e-mails, OK, but still diuscussing religion now only reinforces the fact that Obama the young atheist was converted and mentored for 20 years, the daughters baptized etc etc, by a guy who's essentially a Black Panther, to the left of Farrakhan. it's a delicate balancing act, for the Obama campaign: even after they eventually threw Wright under the bus.

The anti-abortion single-issue religious voters (just mefimail konolia if in doubt) will never vote for him, because Roe v Wade is one vote away from being overturned and poor John Paul Stevens is about 136 years old. after 30 years, they finally have Roe cornered: no amount of ass-kissing from Obama will make them vote for him, unless gas touches 10 dollars a gallon (it won't, from here to November).

Less abortion-obsessed religious voters might be up for grabs -- I mean, no one seriously believes McCain is even remotely religious, and to his credit he's not really pretending to be a good Christian, he spins his saintliness with the "Martyred By The Commie Gooks" thing, not with his going to church. But still, Obama -- ironically -- has the same problem JFK had. The basically secular JFK couldn't really act too religious because that would only remind voters that he was a Catholic, and so many people thought he'd end up taking orders from the Pope (as insane as it sounds today). Seeing Obama in Church only reminds you that he doesn't have a Church now because he listened for 20 years to Wright's sermons but now he doesn't go there anymore, and it's not something you really want to remind voters.

To sum it up, he has to look Christian (ie, "NOT A MUSLIM, SIR, NO SIR!") without reminding people too much of the "God Damn America" guy. Good luck for that.

But then, at least Obama is breathing, walking, talking. Watching the barely-alive McCain on TV is so painful that maybe Obama has a better chance to win than I rationally think he has.
posted by matteo at 2:38 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

three blind mice said: This Obama guy is turing out to be a real dimwit. He writes a sappy prayer when any idiot in his position would have left a blank piece of paper. A degree from Harvard means about as little as a degree from Yale apparently.

At least at Harvard, we learn things like how to spell "turning," and all of the fine third-grade skills of proofreading. More substantively, though, is your failure to contribute anything other than insults to the discussion. Your point is cynical at best; at worst, it's meaningless drivel. You honestly think the media running stories like "Obama blasphemes Judeo-Christian holy site, snubs God with blank prayer" would be a better result? Instead, the whole incident sends the message to millions of Midwestern swing state voters that Obama prays for humility.

Sounds like something you should start praying for.
posted by jock@law at 2:42 PM on July 27

Panorama of Obama in Berlin

More like a Panorbama, amirite?
I hate myself.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:45 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

At least at Harvard, we learn things like how to spell "turning,"

Wow, the Ivy League's reputation for arduous curricula has been grossly inflated.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:53 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

I'M IN UR WAILING WALL, FILCHING UR OBSECRATIONZ!
posted by turgid dahlia at 2:57 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

"No, see, jock@law, you don't understand: we don't take religious people seriously here at MetaFilter, so in order to take Obama seriously (which we have to do because he's our only hope against the Evil Empire), we have to believe that he's not religious. ...""
posted by languagehat at 3:14 PM on July 27

Or, you know, we could just take seriously the idea that a guy who arranges a photo op, specifically involving his religious observances at the Western Wall, is politicizing his religion for calculated effect. Because if he was there for anything but politics, he could have gone, sans cameras, and he wouldn't have been thanking the media for coming out at 7:00 a.m. to cover the event. Once the candidate does that, his religion, or lack thereof, or his outright hypocrisy, is in play.

I can say this with some situational insight, because in all the times I've gone to the Wailing Wall, I never called a press conference there, or posed for pictures, so I never had to thank anyone for coming out to cover my visits. People do a lot of things there, but photo ops aren't the reason it was built.

What comes out of a larger comparison, that can be conducted there any day by anyone who has more than a 15 minute photo op slot to spend in that ancient place, between the behavior of thousands of normal people who go there, many on pilgrimage, to have some kind of sacred experience of the place, and a guy like Obama who is there to use it as a photo backdrop, is that Obama's mindset on a lot of topics isn't anything like that of the average man. This is a guy who starts his "stolen prayer" with the request “Lord — Protect my family and me,” after arranging appearances of his children in numerous photos for press distribution, and granting interviews that include his children, in service of his political career. This is a guy who, along with his wife, has determined that the best place to raise their kids, in the whole world, is in the fishbowl of the White House, where Secret Service agents will need to keep an eye on them. Well, he did think that, at least until the wisdom of exposing his family to publicity was called into question.

"I don't think it's healthy and it's something that we'll be avoiding in the future," Obama said Wednesday on "Good Morning America."

But you know, this isn't a guy who has much in common with most family men, who often choose where to live, and even what career commitments to undertake, based on the schools and needs of their kids. I know I did, on a number of occasions, as my Dad had made such considerations for me and my siblings, without question. Because that is what a Dad does - he puts his kids first, and not just on King David Hotel stationary. I guess I'm glad Obama is now giving enough consideration to his kid's welfare to ask $INSERT_DEITY's protection for them, along with that of the Secret Service. That's at least one of his position changes I, and probably Britney Spears, can support. I keep looking for others.

You'd think a guy who was editor of the Harvard Law Review would be bright enough to see that putting your minor children out front, isn't the best strategy for living a public life, before being called on it publicly. You'd think a guy that maintains he has the foresight to lead the world, could at least lead a substantive press conference in Israel that wasn't subject to being borked on phony photo symbolism.

You'd think, but on the evidence of July, you'd be wrong.
posted by paulsc at 3:02 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

I agree with everything paulsc said with the provisio that, unlike McCain, at least Obama doesn't look like a testicle.
posted by turgid dahlia at 3:14 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

JFK drew about 120,000 and Obama drew about 200,000.

How many newspapers bothered to report that there were no less than two popular music acts that afternoon in Berlin, and that Obama's "crowd" was largely there for the music?

Nobody will ever convince me that Obama didn't think his note would be read, or even published. Obama is by far the most brilliant orator we've seen vie for public office in a long time. He's also one of the most coldly calculating politicians we've seen run for President, maybe ever.

However, if he didn't think that, having it read and published is pure karmic payback for his vote to essentially support spying on the American people, with retroactive immunity for those who trample on 4th Amendment rights.

The great irony in his campaign is that he has used the power of communications distribution to spread his word, but his words keep changing. Thus, the thing that brought him to the pinnacle will probably be the thing that brings him down. I mean, how many times can a Presidential candidate do 180 degree reversals without getting shredded for it? So, far, Obama is the all-time flip-flopping champ.


Watching the barely-alive McCain on TV is so painful that maybe Obama has a better chance to win than I rationally think he has.

That's what a lot of Mitt Romney's people were saying.

btw, I'm not voting for Obama, or McCain. Again, the American public has been hoodwinked, and screwed over. We have two lame politicians to chose from.

Last, I was noting comments about how we're becoming a divided nation. Voting patterns bear that out. There's been a decided increase in landslide results for one candidate or the other since 1976. Voting patterns are hardening. (I searched for a recent, highly-touted and well-researched book about this point, but couldn't find it)

I don't think we're going to see anything much different this year than we saw in 2004. With certain battleground states looking for someone they resonate with in their *gut*. I don't think Obama is going to change that pattern, based solely on his performance in the latter part of the primary against Hillary Clinton.
posted by MetaMan at 3:16 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

Paul, you're a smart guy, but your nitpicking is beginning to make you sound like a loon.
posted by JackFlash at 3:19 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

At least at Harvard, we learn things like how to spell "turning," and all of the fine third-grade skills of proofreading.

for eighty thousand dollars a year, you'd better.
posted by matteo at 3:34 PM on July 27

is politicizing his religion for calculated effect.

Unlike George W. Bush who ran as the Jesus Guy in 2000 and he upgraded to Guy Who Talks To God in 2004? Unlike him, you mean? Or are you talking about the shameful way McCain backed his truck up on the "agents of intolerance" thing and then sent his sad butler Joe Lieberman to kiss the insane antisemite John Hagee's ass (one wonders if they made poor Joe eat a post-event ham sandwich just for shits and giggles) in order to get some evangelical votes? is that the kind of politicizing one's religion for calculated effect you're talking about?


People do a lot of things there, but photo ops aren't the reason it was built.


no, not the reason it was built, photo-ops are the reason the Temple was destroyed, together with the rest of the city -- after razing Jerusalem to the ground Titus had his portrait taken (sculptures, bas relief, etc, too bad they didn't have HDTV back then) so much it launched a kickass political career. he was, you know, tough on terrorism and the right man to become Emperor.
posted by matteo at 3:47 PM on July 27 [3 favorites]

How many newspapers bothered to report that there were no less than two popular music acts that afternoon in Berlin, and that Obama's "crowd" was largely there for the music?

Well, they didn't mention the 70,000+ at that rally in Portland were there to see the Decemberists! MEDIA CONSPIRACY!

(Are there 70,000 Decemberists fans in the entire world?)
posted by dw at 3:50 PM on July 27

jock, you don't have the faintest fucking clue what you're talking about.

How about the fact, oh, say, that he converted well before even running for state office in one of the most liberal and most Catholic cities in the country?

He wasn't running mayor of Chicago, he was running to represent the south side, and TUCC was the most influential church in his district.
posted by empath at 3:56 PM on July 27

Nobody will ever convince me that Obama didn't think his note would be read, or even published.

True, and nobody will ever convince you that Senator Obama isn't a puppy-kicking Muslim who hates women and wants to turn America into a radioactive wasteland. So who cares what you think?

I'd be a lot more convinced by anti-Obama arguments if they weren't all predicated on Ron-Paul-style insanities. You could talk about his tax cuts for the poor and middle class and try to convince me that it's somehow worse than Senator McCain's tax cuts for the richest 1% of Americans, at the expense of the poor and middle class. But you won't. You could talk about how we need to stay in Iraq for another hundred years and how somehow this will be a compassionate endeavor that won't engender further hatred of Americans abroad. But you won't.

Instead, you and everyone else who are supposedly "lifelong Democrats" who also happen to loathe one of the smartest and most inspiring politicians of the last three generations would rather discuss seriously crazy stuff like how Obama isn't even an American citizen or his wife was videotaped screaming "Whitey did it" or Obama wasn't playing basketball with troops stationed in Kuwait but secretly poisoning them with fluoride.

And the guy puts a note in a holy site that should have never been seen by anyone else, and it's stolen, and published, and you somehow think that this was his grand plan all along? That is insanity. What would make you happy? Seriously? What could the note have possibly said that you wouldn't have jumped on to point out some sort of flaw in his character? Give me one sentence you wouldn't have flipped out at.

Look, folks, I hate George W. Bush with unmatched passion. I think he has been a just awful, awful President and I think he is also probably an awful human being. But I am pretty sure that he loves his kids, and I am pretty sure that he thinks he's doing the right thing, even when he's doing something illegal or ill-advised or grossly criminal. If I can give that asshole the benefit of the doubt, would it be too hard for you to think, just for a second, that Barack Obama loves his family and his country, and wants what's best for both?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:57 PM on July 27 [20 favorites]

Someone has to clear out all the old prayers in the wall to make space for new ones. What happens to the old slips of paper? dumpster? compost? incinerator? recycled to make toilet paper and maxi pads?
posted by HotPatatta at 4:15 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

What happens to the old slips of paper?

The old notes are considered to have religious significance and are buried in a nearby cemetery according to Jewish tradition.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:19 PM on July 27

they're put through markov filters and typed into metafilter comments - there's at least 5 in this thread alone
posted by pyramid termite at 4:20 PM on July 27 [4 favorites]

How many newspapers bothered to report that there were no less than two popular music acts that afternoon in Berlin, and that Obama's "crowd" was largely there for the music?

Citations or you're a liar.
posted by oaf at 4:30 PM on July 27

"Unlike George W. Bush who ran as the Jesus Guy in 2000 and he upgraded to Guy Who Talks To God in 2004? Unlike him, you mean? Or are you talking about the shameful way McCain backed his truck up on the "agents of intolerance" thing and then sent his sad butler Joe Lieberman to kiss the insane antisemite John Hagee's ass (one wonders if they made poor Joe eat a post-event ham sandwich just for shits and giggles) in order to get some evangelical votes? is that the kind of politicizing one's religion for calculated effect you're talking about?"
posted by matteo at 6:47 PM on July 27

Those guys weren't standing behind the word "CHANGE" and trying to look secularly inspirational every chance they got. "If you're pushing 'CHANGE,' don't try to lead with the other guy's issues" is probably the best advice I have for you. Don't throw your pastor under the bus, and trot off to Jerusalem to model a yarmulke to demonstrate that you're still fist-bump tight with $INSERT_DEITY. You can't help looking foolish.

But what do I know? I'm not a Harvard lawyer, bragging about the $200+ million war chest I've got, and backing away from my 16 month deadline for getting out of Iraq, now that, finally, I've been there. I don't know what Petraeus said to Obama, but I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall for that meeting.
posted by paulsc at 4:31 PM on July 27 [1 favorite]

There were two bands at Obama's appearance in Berlin.

Reamon and Patrice -- I have no idea how popular they are in Germany, or if they'd have drawn 200,000 people.
posted by empath at 4:39 PM on July 27

If I can give that asshole the benefit of the doubt, would it be too hard for you to think, just for a second, that Barack Obama loves his family and his country, and wants what's best for both?

Maybe you should give citizens and Democrats who have doubts about Obama the same benefit of the doubt, instead of writing rants on imaginary accusations made against Obama.

Not one of the things you bring up did I mention in my previous post. So stop distorting what's said.

I have never said that Obama isn't a good man. I have always said that his qualifications for the highest political office on our land are suspect, and that he is a politician whose moral center is yet to be revealed. I do not trust the man, and his political record - what there is of it - is full of electoral chicanery, outright "borrowing" of other's legislative initiatives (look at his record in the IL state legislature)

Obama has reversed himself on practically every major stance he held fast to during the primary campaign, including others that he didn't tout during the primary. So why should anyone trust what he says? Because he talks pretty?

How is it that I haven't heard a serious PEEP from Obama supporters about his shredding of the 4th Amendment with a "yes" vote on the FISA bill?

Tax cuts? How is Obama going to do that, with his planned redeployments into Afghanistan, and his highly questionable health care reforms; social security taxes; handguns, campaign financing, and on and on and on. How about welfare reform?

Obama's tax cuts? The increase in investment income tax, combined with income tax will hurt seniors, who tend to have income gains from triggered 401K's, home and business sales (capital gains), and the sale of business equipment (income).

Obama's taxes will be hard on those who don't get a pension, many corporate workers, small farmers, owners of mom-and-pop retail, etc.. Many in these sectors will have $1-2million income for one year, especially in the form of capital gains.


And please don't give me that crap about how "smart" Obama is. Jimmy Carter could run rings around Obama. Carter was/is a nice guy, with a good heart, but he didn't make the grade.


What could the note have possibly said that you wouldn't have jumped on to point out some sort of flaw in his character? Give me one sentence you wouldn't have flipped out at.

THis has _nothing_ to do with the content of the note, and _everything_ to do with the fact that Obama is a very carefully honed candidate, who has not missed one opportunity to manipulate a crowd. I don't fault him for that; he's a politician. So it comes off as rather naive on your part to think that someone of Obama's stature would write anything but the most self-prepossessing praiseworthy words on any document that might be seen by others.

I've gone into some of this elsewhere. America is a great country, and although I'm not voting for either McCain or Obama, there is no way that anyone with any common sense is going to beleive that John McCain is another George Bush. Anyone who even intimates that is either ignorant of the facts, or so blinded by cultism that they can't see straight.

I have problems with McCain, too. Like I said before, we've been had by the MSM, and our own myth that "someone" will save us from our excesses of the last 30-40 years. It's ain't gonna happen.

America will evolve a new moral tone. America _wants_ a new moral tone. Obama is not going to deliver on that, nor is McCain.

Only YOU and I, and 300 million other Americans, by ourselves, and together, can make that happen. If you think Obama is going to lead you in the right direction, or McCain, you're dreaming. They're both beholden to large, moneyed interests, and things much as they have always been, with the Democrats and Republicans playing "good cop, bad cop" depending on the issue, or the time.

Wake up!
posted by MetaMan at 4:43 PM on July 27 [2 favorites]

Obama with Reamonn -- not sure why obama is throwin up a gang sign, there.
posted by empath at 4:46 PM on July 27

throw your pastor under the bus

I have a rule that if someone says something along the lines "Obama threw x under the bus", I can safely ignore anything else they have to say, since they've demonstrated that they can't do anything but regurgitate talking points.
posted by empath at 4:52 PM on July 27

Reamon and Patrice -- I have no idea how popular they are in Germany, or if they'd have drawn 200,000 people.

Well, seeing as how neither has a single at the moment in the top 100, I'm not sure they'd draw 200,000 people.
posted by oaf at 4:53 PM on July 27

Citations or you're a liar.

So who's a liar? I'm not the one that has flip-flopped more than a dolphin, like your plastic Jesus candidate.

Police have cordoned off a broad section of the city centre around the speech venue, where European bands and DJs are to warm up the crowd before Obama takes the stage at around 7:30 pm. and here and change Germans can't believe in
posted by MetaMan at 4:54 PM on July 27

I mean, paulsc's last post is essentially the entire carefully crafted narrative the GOP is pushing on Obama, that he has no center, that he's unprincipled, that he doesn't have loyalty, that he's a cipher. It's wrong, but more important than that (to me), it's also boring.
posted by empath at 4:55 PM on July 27

Barack Obama and John McCain. Two men of God. Two brothers in His sight. But now, brother is pitted against brother. And this November, God has to choose one - and only one - to be his representative on Earth. Both have asked for His blessing - both have prayed for His guidance. One of them sacrificed a goat to appease Him. Yeah, it was pretty fucking gross actually, but there you go. Anyway, both men, both godly men have invoked his help. And come November, God himself will clench his awesome fist and, with the force of a hurricane, will drive that fist through the cap of clouds; down, with unspeakable velocity and momentous power, down from the vault of heaven and with infinite violence, He will crush into powdery oblivion, into microscopic dust, one or other of these two righteous statesmen. BAM! Like a fucking battering ram of titanium His gargantuan judgment will descend and obliterate the un-chosen candidate. Like a petulant child crushing a damselfly underfoot, His choice will flatten down the curve of the Earth and the air will shake and sweat to feel the passing of His swift and final blow. And THAT is democracy, my friends - THAT is why America is the greatest nation on this bountiful and beautiful Earth, because when God himself casts His vote there's no college of electors that can dimiss or glance aside the tremendous holy missile of His will, nor prevent a glassy crater of justice, 75-foot in radius, around the miniscule corpse of whosoever does not merit his choice. So fuck YOU, Iran - and up YOURS, Belgium. When you've got DEMOCRACY and you've got GOD you've got a political decision-making process that can't be beat. And come November, it will come. So just think about that before you decide to run for congress or D.A. or local councillor, because once that big, numinous bastard up there starts voting, you better kiss your fucking asshole goodbye, you shitfucker.

Actually that's how I assume this thing works, but if anyone can fill in a few details I've missed, please do add your two cents.
posted by the quidnunc kid at 5:03 PM on July 27 [9 favorites]

How is it that I haven't heard a serious PEEP from Obama supporters about his shredding of the 4th Amendment with a "yes" vote on the FISA bill?

I guess you haven't been reading then - Obama supporters both here and elsewhere were largely disappointed by his FISA stance; however, one vote that I disagree with doesn't mean that I'm cutting off my support. When his position on civil liberties is worse than McCain's, then I'll vote for McCain. Let me know if and when that happens.

Tax cuts? How is Obama going to do that, with his planned redeployments into Afghanistan, and his highly questionable health care reforms; social security taxes; handguns, campaign financing, and on and on and on.

His tax cuts for those earning less than $250,000/year are offset by increased income taxes on those earning more than $250,000/year. I don't know how handguns and campaign financing tie into that.

And please don't give me that crap about how "smart" Obama is. Jimmy Carter could run rings around Obama. Carter was/is a nice guy, with a good heart, but he didn't make the grade.

Obama graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law, he writes his own books, and much of his own speeches. You telling me he's not smart says more about you than it does him.

no way that anyone with any common sense is going to beleive that John McCain is another George Bush

This is true. George W. Bush was a much better student than John McCain.

If you think Obama is going to lead you in the right direction, or McCain, you're dreaming.

Obama's term as President will not be a golden age. There is a tremendous amount of work we all have to do to fix the messes of the last forty years of corporate hegemony, and specifically the last eight years of war profiteering and Constitution-shredding. At best, we will be almost back on our feet by 2016. Sometimes that is all you can hope for.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 5:06 PM on July 27 [6 favorites]