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Sarah Palin's Church: Prayer Warriors, Spirit Mapping & FEMA
October 31, 2008 12:42 PM   Subscribe

Thomas Muthee, the witch-hunting prayer warrior who anointed Sarah Palin, is part of a much larger movement called the New Apostolic Reformation. Researchers at religious watchdog site Talk2Action have released a 36 page report on the NAR (part 1, part 2, part 3 & PDF). Learn about Palin confidant Mary Glazier, the Queen of Heaven, the Christian Emergency Network and much, much more.
posted by scalefree (75 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite

 
Let's not do this, OK?
posted by Class Goat at 12:49 PM on October 31, 2008


But it's already done.
posted by chunking express at 12:51 PM on October 31, 2008


Why not? The subject of the post is not Palin, although it is related, and the New Apostolic Reformation movement is getting real traction. It seems like something worth talking about.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:51 PM on October 31, 2008


Can we just talk about witches instead?
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 12:54 PM on October 31, 2008


In that 'Queen of Heaven' link we learn about "OPERATION QUEEN'S PALACE (Also known as "LOVE TURKEY") "

I signed up to Mefi TODAY and chose my stupid username because I couldn't think of anything better. Damn, I coulda been 'LoveTurkey'.

Well, I prefer chicken anyway.
posted by ShameSpiral at 12:56 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


The NAR by itself is worthy of a FPP, but the linkage between a controversial movement & Palin makes it timely as well. This is a major research piece that explores the movement in depth, not just a hit job that says "haha wacky Sarah".
posted by scalefree at 12:57 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


Thanks for scaring the shit out of me on Halloween.

Seriously, great post.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:08 PM on October 31, 2008


The whole idea of saving places instead of just people absolutely fascinates me. The Spiritual Warfare maps just cry out for a web 2.0 mashup or Google extension to really start opening up the concepts for participation by the masses. If I'm going to plan a trip in an unfamiliar city, I need to know where the demons are so I can map my route accordingly.
posted by scalefree at 1:10 PM on October 31, 2008 [3 favorites]


I signed up to Mefi TODAY and chose my stupid username because I couldn't think of anything better.

Let me be the first to welcome you with the traditional:

Eponysterical.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:15 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


I don't see why they are going to Turkey. Aren't there enough American demons to fight?
posted by RussHy at 1:17 PM on October 31, 2008


These believers are not waiting for the Rapture but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government. The Transformations videos have been used as a major promotional tool for the advancement of the methods for taking control - spiritual mapping and spiritual warfare. The videos demonstrate the taking control of communities and nations through large networks of "prayer warriors." whose spiritual warfare is used to expel and destroy the demons that cause societal ills. Once the territorial demons, witches, and generational curses are removed, the "born again" Christians in the videos take control of society.

Where have we seen this before:

Mr. Bush consistently sends signals to his right wing religious base. In the 2003 State of the Union he exhorted: “there’s power, wonder working power, in the goodness and idealism and faith of the American people”. It’s a phrase from a well known Communion hymn “there’s power, wonder working power in the blood of the lamb”. Bush brings together the holiness zeal of Christian evangelicalism with patriotic fundamentalism. The core belief system of this ‘civic gospel’ goes something like this: The United States was founded as a Christian nation with free enterprise as the only economic system truly compatible with Christian beliefs. These religious values are today under attack in America. The danger is that without faith in God America will lose its blessing. Therefore, the government needs to act to protect the nation's religious heritage...

In a “reconstructed society” democracy would be heresy. The division between sacred and secular would be abolished. A new insistence on conformity to moral rules would replace the pluralism we now know. The purpose of the Federal government would be to enforce morality through military and police functions. Society would be regulated by a theocratic elite: in the words of Pat Robertson: “just as the Supreme Court justices place a hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution, so they should also put a hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible.”


- George Bush and the Rise of Christian Fascism, Reverend Rich Lang


Sarah Palin and her ilk are a cancer on American democracy and need to be excised next Tuesday.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:19 PM on October 31, 2008 [3 favorites]


What happens next Tuesday?
posted by Null Pointer and the Exceptions at 1:24 PM on October 31, 2008


What happens next Tuesday?

The same thing we do every Tuesday, Null Pointer and the Exceptions. Try to take over the world.
posted by ryoshu at 1:38 PM on October 31, 2008 [16 favorites]


No matter how many times I think about it, it still boggles me that we're on the verge of electing an overgrown Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the White House. She even has a daughter named Willow.
posted by scalefree at 1:42 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


NARF!
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:43 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


2006 National Governmental Prayer Alliance
"There is a network of demonic hosts, meeting in NYC and coming here, demon gods that are guarding the state capital in a 25 mile radius. They are holding the "legality structure" in place that's creating an atmosphere over this capital. They seek to influence laws and legislation.
Chuck decreed at the end of this word that the demonic forces will be confronted and will have to let go of their hold. Every demonic force within a 25 mile radius will be displaced! Angelic forces are coming in to visit Albany!"
Hellboy 4: Hellboy For Congress
posted by scalefree at 1:50 PM on October 31, 2008


No matter how many times I think about it, it still boggles me that we're on the verge of electing an overgrown Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the White House. She even has a daughter named Willow.

She's no Buffy. Not by a long shot.
posted by Tehanu at 1:52 PM on October 31, 2008 [6 favorites]


McCain is The Master, by the way. But that's old news.
posted by Tehanu at 1:59 PM on October 31, 2008


When I was a kid, I went to an AoG church, and there was one night, in the middle of winter, where a group of us stayed after Wednesday night service (only me and one of my friends and his brother were the only kids, the rest were all adults -- I must've been 10 or 11 at the time I think)... Anyways, we all had to drive out to different points of the peninsula (Door County, WI) and "anoint" the ground with oil, and get all glossolalia-y on those demons or something.

Yeah, it was one of the weirder moments of my fundie upbringing.
posted by symbioid at 2:10 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.
posted by dawson at 2:13 PM on October 31, 2008


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

Um...no.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:16 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


I don't want to be a "prayer warrior". I wonder if they need a prayer ninja? or maybe a prayer Viking?
posted by RussHy at 2:17 PM on October 31, 2008


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

You know, Einstein was just as crazy as Hitler, and George Washington was just as bad a Ghengis Khan, and trees are just as bad as oceans.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2008 [25 favorites]


I can't even bring myself to read these things. I'd really really like to continue in my long-held opinion that The Handmaid's Tale is Margaret Atwoods most implausible and over-the-top book, and not a fucking prophecy.
posted by supermedusa at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


From Link: Cancer! Mission Accomplished!
posted by tkchrist at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


Re: that Queen of Heaven link - whiskey tango fuck? It's like some deranged Jeebus-flavored LotR larp that these people believe in.

"To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it." ... Could the Lord be saying that He wants you to trade the meaning of your name (Peter = rock, stone) for a new 'white stone?' Not just any white stone, but a victor's white stone coming from the throne of God engraved with a new name? And this new name (known only to you and God) will help authenticate the new revelation necessary for the church to overcome as well."

I now have the physical white stone from Pergamum in my study. I am not yet sure about the new name. But I do think that the step in fulfilling the great commission(the hidden manna) is Operation Queen's Palace.


Are you going to gain the defense bonus wielding the Glimmering Charm Shield of Trafalgamar to compliment the +4 Manna bonus the True Stone of Pergamum gives your magi units?
posted by FatherDagon at 2:20 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


yes, and apples are oranges so kill them all and let god sort them out!
posted by supermedusa at 2:21 PM on October 31, 2008


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

Brother. You're outta your fucking mind if you honestly think that.
posted by tkchrist at 2:21 PM on October 31, 2008 [4 favorites]


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

I don't see how metafilter's zealotry changes the fact that this group (that really is small and not as politically potent as this report makes them to be) enjoy and have no problem warping the message of who they claim to preach by twisting something that is full of joy, love, fellowship and compassion into something that is legalistic, fearful, exclusionary, and, above all, specifically man-centric. They promote and preached a message that is less about Jesus and God and more about fear, spite, bitterness and strict legalism of something that is not legalistic. Metafilter's viewpoint doesn't change the fact that the New Apostolic Reformation (and this group is so poorly named to the point where it's laughable) are completely out there and promoting a theology that is completely wrong in terms of Christian thought, history, and practice. It's perfectly allowable for Metafilter (or, hell, any other group that others claims to be anti-thestic) to call a duck a duck.
posted by Stynxno at 2:28 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


In 1995, Mary mobilized a prayer network for Alaska's prisons and began experiencing spiritual warfare as never before. She had received word that a witch had applied for a job as chaplain of the state's prison system ... Mary recalls, "As we continued to pray against the spirit of witchcraft, her incense altar caught on fire, her car engine blew up, she went blind in her left eye, and she was diagnosed with cancer.

Ultimately, the witch fled to another state for medical treatment. Soon after, revival visited every prison in Alaska. At the women's correctional facility in Anchorage alone, 55 of 60 inmates found Christ. "Ask largely," Mary says. "Intercessory prayer is making a major difference in North America."


dawson, you're right! This sounds just like a meTa thread! We don't call people out - we pray them out!

WTF are you talking about? Metafilter, and by extension, mefites, are just like these folks? If you're not being hyperbolically snarky, could you explain?
posted by rtha at 2:30 PM on October 31, 2008


What's the opposite of prayer warrior? Curse nerd?

Just send a bunch of Harry Potter fans after them to cancel them out.
posted by chugg at 2:34 PM on October 31, 2008


When I first saw this thread, I prayed that someone would come along and post a stupid comment to get things rolling. It worked!
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 2:34 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

I like to say that people here are so open-minded, their brains have fallen out.

To paraphrase Jay-Z, there's 99 reasons to vote against Palin, and religion doesn't have to be one of 'em.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:35 PM on October 31, 2008


This sounds just like a meTa thread! We don't call people out - we pray them out!

Don't you guys remember the "curse group" we had wishing Dick Cheney would get cancer. And when he did we all, like, high-fived each other and shit.
posted by tkchrist at 2:38 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


"As we continued to pray against the spirit of witchcraft, her incense altar caught on fire, her car engine blew up, she went blind in her left eye, and she was diagnosed with cancer."

This Christianity, isn't it supposed to be different than witchcraft in some way?
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 2:40 PM on October 31, 2008 [13 favorites]


To paraphrase Jay-Z, there's 99 reasons to vote against Palin, and religion doesn't have to be one of 'em.

Oh come now, psychotically zealous allegiance to invisible space wizards and praying cancer into people are perfectly good reasons to count in the 99!
posted by FatherDagon at 2:40 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


psychotically zealous allegiance to invisible space wizards
posted by FatherDagon


Eponysterrifying!
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:44 PM on October 31, 2008 [3 favorites]


This Christianity, isn't it supposed to be different than witchcraft in some way?

Only in the symbols, from what I can tell. It really is a merging of Christian & Pagan systems. They even boast of increased harvests in areas that are "transformed". It's a very strange creature they've bred, a theological chimera. The more I study religion the more I realize Joseph Campbell was right, the symbols may change but the underlying patterns are universal.
posted by scalefree at 2:56 PM on October 31, 2008 [3 favorites]


Damn, I coulda been 'LoveTurkey'. -- ShameSpiral

You'll always be LoveTurkey in our hearts. And that's a promise.
posted by rokusan at 3:09 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


Prayer warriors remind me of that SNL sketch with Steve Martin as a medieval barber surgeon. He tells the parents of a girl he's about to blood-let that "Why, just fifty years ago, they thought a disease like your daughter's was caused by demonic possession or witchcraft." And they all laugh. "But nowadays we know that Isabelle is suffering from an imbalance of bodily humors, perhaps caused by a toad or a small dwarf living in her stomach."

The funny thing is, the sketch isn't that far off. Belief in the four humors was considered a scientific advancement beyond belief in demonic possession or witchcraft. And here we have the prayer warriors, stuck in the 10th century, who'll probably be touting sulfur compresses and ram's horn powder in a few years' time. Of course, I was brought up with the old fashioned belief that the greatest prayer you can make is one of gratitude and praise, so what do I know?

konolia, is that you?

No, dawson is a yellow-belt concern troll who likes to make these hit-and-run snipes. Don't worry, he'll be back with more entertaining bon mots in no time.

posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:22 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


Don't give us no sass or we'll kick yrrr ass, cuz we're the heralds of Crowleymass.

Sadly overlooked yet again this year.
posted by philip-random at 3:35 PM on October 31, 2008


"These believers are not waiting for the Rapture but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government."

Sorta like secular leftists:

These non-believers don't believe in the Rapture, but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government.
posted by Jahaza at 3:59 PM on October 31, 2008


It seems that these people have turned the Bible into a rule book for a bad live-action role-playing game.
posted by empath at 4:13 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


Sorta like secular leftists:

These non-believers don't believe in the Rapture, but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government.


Yep, witch-hunters who pray for others to get cancer, speak in tongues, and believe in demonic possession are just like leftists.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:16 PM on October 31, 2008 [4 favorites]


Why is it some small minds feel the need to argue that every lunatic excess of religion or bigotry is somehow mirrored by all-powerful "leftists"?
posted by Shepherd at 4:16 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


The point is not that every lunatic excess of religion or bigotry is mirrored by leftists (and where was it said that they were all powerful?), but that some practices (which may or may not be lunatic or excessive on the part of either party) are.
posted by Jahaza at 4:29 PM on October 31, 2008


The point is not that every lunatic excess of religion or bigotry is mirrored by leftists (and where was it said that they were all powerful?), but that some practices (which may or may not be lunatic or excessive on the part of either party) are.

My goodness, what a sharp analysis - since leftists (rightists and moderates) want to have control of the government, why, they're just like prayer warriors! But the comparisons don't end there, no: leftists also wear clothes, circulate blood, respirate, and regenerate cells ... just like prayer warriors. They're twins, they are!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:37 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


The point is not that every lunatic excess of religion or bigotry is mirrored by leftists...
but that some practices (which may or may not be lunatic or excessive on the part of either party) are.


So your point is that sometimes people do things that are kind of like things that other people do, and therefore the lunatic fringe of the relgious right is "sorta like" your ambigiously defined "secular leftist" bogeymen.

Just like pigeons are "sorta like" the Space Shuttle because they both fly, and xylophones are "sorta like" elephants because they both make noises.

This kind of mentally weak equivalency game is a strawman I'm seeing more and more often these days in the death throes of the American right, and it's not getting any more interesting.
posted by Shepherd at 4:53 PM on October 31, 2008 [8 favorites]


Sorta like secular leftists:

These non-believers don't believe in the Rapture, but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government.


OO! OO! I want to play, too!

Sorta like Stadler and Waldorf:

These muppets don't believe in the Rapture, but believe they must combat mock evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government the balcony.
posted by gc at 4:53 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


The point is that seeking to bring about the policies in which you believe is at worst ethically neutral.

"Just like pigeons are "sorta like" the Space Shuttle because they both fly, and xylophones are "sorta like" elephants because they both make noises. "

No, people who seek to implement their policy agenda are exactly like people who seek to implement their policy agenda, in that they both seek to implement their policy agenda.

It's laudable that people attempt to get enacted the policies in which they believe, whether those policies are left or right wing. It's the policies themselves that make a difference.

There's a long tradition in American politics, you see its roots in the Danbury Baptists, of Christians withdrawing from the political sphere. That tradition has fallen out of favor over the last 50 years (it reached its peak in the fundamentalist movement, something which has actually been declining or over for decades).

It may be unpleasant or inconvenient for secularists to see religious people seeking to see their beliefs enacted into government policy, but there's no reasonable objection on the basis of the fact that "they are their beliefs", because that's exactly what everyone involved in politics wants to do.
posted by Jahaza at 5:08 PM on October 31, 2008


"The point is that seeking to bring about the policies in which you believe is at worst ethically neutral."

That's a little imprecise, but the point is that what makes it unethical is the content of the policies or the motivation of the implementation (motives like raw desire for power, because they'll make me rich at the expense of others, or because it was cause others to suffer which amuses me, not motives like "I believe in the policy").
posted by Jahaza at 5:11 PM on October 31, 2008


No, dawson is a yellow-belt concern troll who likes to make these hit-and-run snipes.
Actually, no I'm not. I'm just, perhaps not as deep as you, and have not yet drank to the dregs of the cynical grog.
Don't worry, he'll be back with more entertaining bon mots in no time.
Oh God, the pressure mounts!
I think what some of us are referring to is that, left or right, religious or secular there are, um, 'deeply devoted' fanatics on any side of a idelogical roaad who freak most other people out with there sumg elf-asuredness. It may be a prayer meeting or it may be a web forum or the local bar, but it's not how 90% view the world. That yang to the religious yin referenced here is very much in evidence in these parts.
Jon Stewart last night, he was nailing what I'm talking about. I can hardly believe you really don't get it, unless you really are that much of a fundamentalist zealot. It's an election, not a melodrama. But do enjoy!
posted by dawson at 5:12 PM on October 31, 2008


oh the joys of typing with a child grabbing at ones fingers!
posted by dawson at 5:13 PM on October 31, 2008


The videos demonstrate the taking control of communities and nations through large networks of "prayer warriors." whose spiritual warfare is used to expel and destroy the demons that cause societal ills.

Reminds me of Scientology's "auditing" and "body thetans". Reminds me that all religions are dangerous.
posted by oncogenesis at 5:14 PM on October 31, 2008


What happens next Tuesday?

Well, if you vote for Obama, then your incense altar will catch on fire, your car engine will blow up, you'll go blind in your left eye, and you'll be diagnosed with cancer.
posted by homunculus at 5:25 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


No matter how many times I think about it, it still boggles me that we're on the verge of electing an overgrown Buffy the Vampire Slayer to the White House. She even has a daughter named Willow.

Don't you dare diss Buffy like that. I know Buffy (well, I own the DVD box set, and I've watched every episode). Buffy is (a totally imaginary) friend of mine. Sarah Palin is no Buffy. In her mind, I think Sarah Palin wants to be Glory, though really she's Harmony. A more dangerous Harmony, but Harmony none the less.
posted by jokeefe at 5:28 PM on October 31, 2008 [5 favorites]


-It may be unpleasant or inconvenient for secularists to see religious people seeking to see their beliefs enacted into government policy, but there's no reasonable objection on the basis of the fact that "they are their beliefs", because that's exactly what everyone involved in politics wants to do.

-I think what some of us are referring to is that, left or right, religious or secular there are, um, 'deeply devoted' fanatics on any side of a idelogical roaad who freak most other people out with there sumg elf-asuredness. It may be a prayer meeting or it may be a web forum or the local bar, but it's not how 90% view the world. That yang to the religious yin referenced here is very much in evidence in these parts.


I can appreciate this game of false equivalency as much as the next person, but first off, I don't think anyone would dispute the fact that anyone with a political agenda wants power. So stop strawmaning this point. The prayer warriors are being mocked in this thread not solely for wanting power, but by the fact that they want to create a medieval theocracy. I'd say that's faaar removed from a simple question of policy.

Secondly, dawson, don't back-pedal here. You specifically compared MeFi to the prayer warriors, and in fact said the users here are even more extreme ("What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded."). This is quite different than a simple acknowledgement that leftist extremists exist.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:33 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]


'deeply devoted' fanatics on any side of a idelogical roaad who freak most other people out with there sumg elf-asuredness. -- dawson

Very bold, vain creatures, those elves...
posted by ShameSpiral at 6:08 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


It may be unpleasant or inconvenient for secularists to see religious people seeking to see their beliefs enacted into government policy, but there's no reasonable objection on the basis of the fact that "they are their beliefs", because that's exactly what everyone involved in politics wants to do.

So you're jake with pretty much anyone seeking to implement any agenda, as long as they're sincere, and everybody trying to do anything at all is morally and functionally equivalent, because they are all, uh, interested in politics. Is that accurate?

What those beliefs consist of and how they would affect people -- especially people out of the narrow belief sphere of The Faithful -- is relevant. False equivalencies like "the NAP is sorta like "secular leftists" because they both believe things" is a weak strawman that plays a real group, with real goals and a real agenda, versus a bogeyman that has no leader, no credo, and no definable goals except whatever you've made up in your head to suit your argument.

You could use the same argument to say the KKK are "sorta like" the Boy Scouts, or ethnic cleasing is "sorta like" the civil rights movement. That the beliefs fueling things are totally irrelevant, and everybody is exactly the same as long as they believe something.

Saying the NAP trying to manipulate government is exactly equal to your vague "secular leftists" because they both believe in stuff is either tremendously disingenuous or tremendously naive.
posted by Shepherd at 6:31 PM on October 31, 2008 [2 favorites]



It may be unpleasant or inconvenient for secularists to see religious people seeking to see their beliefs enacted into government policy, but there's no reasonable objection on the basis of the fact that "they are their beliefs", because that's exactly what everyone involved in politics wants to do.

Uh. I seem to recall our system has a specific and crucial fundamental tenent that talks about that. The founders were pretty obsessed with it... what was that again?

The separation of something and something. I forget.
posted by tkchrist at 7:06 PM on October 31, 2008


Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with whether government policy can be influenced by religion so long as that policy is not religious.
posted by Jahaza at 7:17 PM on October 31, 2008


You beat me to it, jokeefe. Mere favoritizing is insufficient praise.

Though I think the point of this FPP is to allege that she's more your Drusilla type.
posted by Xezlec at 8:21 PM on October 31, 2008


Mary recalls, "As we continued to pray against the spirit of witchcraft, her incense altar caught on fire, her car engine blew up, she went blind in her left eye, and she was diagnosed with cancer.


It's like that story from the New Testament.

4 they said to Him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act. 5 “Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?”7 [...] He straightened up, and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” 9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court. 10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, “Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?” 11 She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “I do not condemn you, either. But I pray you get diagnosed with cancer".

WTF?
posted by ersatz at 8:31 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


I think what some of us are referring to is that, left or right, religious or secular there are, um, 'deeply devoted' fanatics on any side of a idelogical roaad who freak most other people out with there sumg elf-asuredness.

Hey look, I'm all for the whole devil's-advocate-tempered-word-moderate-position thing, but the above comment is... well... not that. Hopefully you do understand that it is not the religious far-right's "smug self-assuredness" (which many liberals no doubt share) that freaks us out. It is its rolling on the floor, casting out demons, speaking in tongues, opening the door every morning and checking whether it's the rapture yet kind of stuff that seems a little off.

I'm not sure what kind of equivalent you'll find among the "leftists" for that one.

Weirdly, I fully agree with Jahaza on this one, with the exception of his original point that "non-believers who don't believe in the Rapture" are as scary as the opposite from some neutral viewpoint (if that's what he's saying). Not believing in a small minority viewpoint that has little evidence supporting it is not as scary as believing it. And yes I will extend that statement to the medieval period, when the tables were turned. Someone who believes what these far-rightists believe would not have been scary to me in 1300. It's that they still believe that stuff in 2008 that's freakin' freaky.
posted by Xezlec at 8:37 PM on October 31, 2008


"...her car engine blew up..."

I bet that was a miracle involving no human intervention.
posted by Xezlec at 8:38 PM on October 31, 2008


"These believers are not waiting for the Rapture but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government."

Sorta like secular leftists:

These non-believers don't believe in the Rapture, but believe they must combat evil themselves through aggressively taking control of society and government.


Jahaza: let me guess. You are a Christian, yes? And you probably don't like others making generalizations about Christians, because you know that you don't do the things they're saying you're doing. Right?

Okay. Well, it works the same for secular leftists. The people that you see "aggressively taking control of society and government" do not stand for all "leftists," just like the people that are getting targeted here do not stand for all Christians.

So -- I bet you want us to understand that "there are different types of Christians," right? Well, we will -- if you promise to accept that there are different types of leftists as well. Deal?

Man, this is the third time I've had to mention my policy about only dividing people up into two types - jerks and non-jerks. It's not leftists you dislike, Jahaza, it is jerks. They may be jerks who happen to be leftists, but what you dislike about them isn't the fact that they're leftists, what you dislike about them is the fact that they're JERKS.

And EVERYBODY can agree that jerks are...jerks. So we can ALL unite on that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:04 PM on October 31, 2008 [1 favorite]


What most people here fail to realize is that MeFi is pretty much in the same camp as the more silly whack-nuts on the extreme right, it's just on the 'other side of the aisle' and a bit more, how show I say...zealous and closed-minded.

Dawson, My comrades and I in the metafilter soviet are waiting with baited breath for your FPP on our activities in subverting the government in order to bring about a perfect society in line with Marxist - Leninist - Maoist - Howiest thought. The truth of the revolution needs to be brought to the proletariat!
posted by afu at 12:19 AM on November 1, 2008


there's 99 reasons to vote against Palin, and religion doesn't have to be one of 'em

whackjob rightwing christianity is akin to brain cancer. It causes people to start believing stupid shit like the earth is 5000 years old, humankind is a special creation that does not share common lineage with other mammals, wars can be started because we are on God's side (or, worse, God is on our side), same-sex life partners are not living in accordance with millenial-old Jewish laws and thus must not be afforded the civil rights of traditional man-wife couples, the rapture is coming to take us away so we don't have to worry about the trees / pollution / our credit card balances, etc. etc. et fucking cetera.

You remove the whackjob Christianity from Palin's resume, and she becomes a MUCH more interesting candidate for national office for me.
posted by troy at 2:28 AM on November 1, 2008 [1 favorite]


Troy: but you can't remove that branch of Christianity from Palin. Besides even if you did, you have a candidate guilty of abusing the power of her office and no major accomplishments done in office. I know she's been a mayor and is a governor, but I haven't heard of anything she's actually done as governor that's particularly noteworthy.
posted by clockworkjoe at 10:48 AM on November 1, 2008


And EVERYBODY can agree that jerks are...jerks. So we can ALL unite on that.

Reminds me of something a comedian friend said a few years back. It used to be you could make nasty fun of pretty much anyone for any reason (religion, skin color, nationality, sex, IQ, profession) ... but now, since the advent of PC consciousness, you can only make good clean fun of assholes. And blonds, of course.
posted by philip-random at 11:28 AM on November 1, 2008


It may be unpleasant or inconvenient for secularists to see religious people seeking to see their beliefs enacted into government policy, but there's no reasonable objection on the basis of the fact that "they are their beliefs", because that's exactly what everyone involved in politics wants to do.
posted by Jahaza at 8:08 PM on October 31


No, there is a giant gaping difference. The difference is that one has a rational basis and the other does not. If the basis for a piece of legislation is an issue of faith — which is the case for virtually all of the far-Right's social agenda — it has no place being enforced by secular government.

Both secular conservatives and secular liberals can argue for their platforms without resorting to faith-based arguments, or arguments that assume a certain religious view. Nonsecular conservatives (and nonsecular liberals, if such people exist), by definition, cannot.

Political anti-secularists should be tolerated in the democratic process in the same way that Neo-Nazis are, and for the same good reasons, but that does not mean that any quarter should be given to their ideas.
posted by Kadin2048 at 9:59 PM on November 1, 2008 [1 favorite]


And somewhere, in the Sphere of Kether, Aleister Crowley sits in a lotus position, and chuckles to himself at the cult he has deluded the fundie Christians with....
posted by Pope Gustafson I at 12:13 AM on November 2, 2008


Reminds me of something a comedian friend said a few years back. It used to be you could make nasty fun of pretty much anyone for any reason (religion, skin color, nationality, sex, IQ, profession) ... but now, since the advent of PC consciousness, you can only make good clean fun of assholes. And blonds, of course.

*wistful sigh* Ahhh, the days of yore, when men were men and the lower social castes knew their place. Now you've got nerds and deviants wanting to be treated with the same politeness as other human beings, and thinking they've got some right not to be marginalized by mainstream discourse. Bah, I say!
posted by Xezlec at 7:32 PM on November 2, 2008 [1 favorite]


Katherine Harris Was in Sarah Palin's Spiritual Warfare Network
posted by homunculus at 11:52 AM on November 3, 2008


Separation of Church and State has nothing to do with whether government policy can be influenced by religion so long as that policy is not religious.

Exactly: Prayer in Schools. Creationism taught as Science. Etc...
posted by tkchrist at 12:24 PM on November 3, 2008


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