Don't Declaw Me, Bro!

October 27, 2009 12:39 PM

People love their cats. Understandably so. In San Francisco, Cat-o-philia has resulted in a measure to ban declawing cats in city limits. That means San Francisco would join about 20 other nations that ban similar practices. The reason? Cat declawing is typically a painful process. But cats have always been loved throughout history. Some say that after the collapse of the Roman Empire, cats even started their own government.

Then there's Lolcats, and of course, Cat Lady('s) (lolcats previously many times, and jocelyn wildenstein)

posted by glaucon (105 comments total)

The topic combined with the title of this post leads me to detect the possibility that this will not end well. Also:

San Francisco would join about 20 other nations

Really?
posted by empyrean at 12:48 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

Bah, fuck the little monsters and throw 'em out the window.
posted by Skot at 12:48 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

Obviously referring to Niners Nation
posted by fusinski at 12:49 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

I'm confused. There's no "trolling" flag.
posted by dersins at 12:50 PM on October 27, 2009 [6 favorites]

emprean, you can read some more about it here and here, if you are interested.

Note: second isn't quite as scholarly
posted by glaucon at 12:50 PM on October 27, 2009

If they didn't have claws, what reason would we have to deal with cats at all?
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 12:51 PM on October 27, 2009

But cats have always been loved throughout history.

Not always.
posted by YoBananaBoy at 12:52 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

Really?

Ya really.
posted by anigbrowl at 12:53 PM on October 27, 2009

San Francisco is not a separate country... it's a separate galaxy!

Thank you! I'm here all week (or until his gets deleted).
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 12:53 PM on October 27, 2009

Then again, there is a proud tradition of hating and fearing cats.
posted by bearwife at 12:53 PM on October 27, 2009

"The California Veterinary Medical Association has helped pass a bill that will make it impossible to pass declaw bills after Dec. 31."

Now that's interesting. I'm ambivalent about declawing myself but that just seems like a dick move by the CVMA.
posted by cimbrog at 12:54 PM on October 27, 2009

Don't know much about LOLCATS, but this thread is definitely INVISIBLE ARGUMENT!!!
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 12:55 PM on October 27, 2009

Personally I love both our cats. I have to. They told me I must.
posted by hippybear at 12:55 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

[bunch of comments removed - try again folks? no one is making you comment here.]
posted by jessamyn at 12:56 PM on October 27, 2009

California has had excellent results from declawing its legislators.
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 12:58 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

I think all cats should be declawed. That way the will have to finally evolve laser vision. Darwin's "natural" evolution is too damn slow.
posted by oddman at 12:59 PM on October 27, 2009

I love cats :3
posted by Damn That Television at 12:59 PM on October 27, 2009

I have seen some really horrific results from declawing, and support this sort of ban completely. The ONLY time a cat should be declawed is if it is medically necessary, and then ONLY for the claws that have to be removed.

Declawing can fundamentally alter the behavior and personality of a cat, rendering previously friendly cats hostile and aggressive. But beyond that, the results of botched declawing can be permanently disfiguring and painful.

One of the saddest things I've ever seen was a tiger who had been declawed by her owners - she had then suffered an infection in her paws which resulted in the loss of nearly all the bones in her paws, as well as motor control over the tissue and permanent nerve damage. She either scooted along using her front paws (now floppy blobs of fur and tissue) as a skid pad, or hopped on her back legs.
posted by strixus at 1:02 PM on October 27, 2009 [4 favorites]

Finally, an excuse to post this link.
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 1:04 PM on October 27, 2009

I have two cats for all intents and purposes. Both have claws. One doesn't know it, and claws the crap out of her people. The other seems to have complete control, total velvet paws, unless it comes to clawing the crap out of everything but the stuff I buy her to claw.

If there was a humane was to declaw a cat, I'd probably be for it, but since I see no humane way to have this done, and think it screws with a cat's instincts, you'll have to fight my cats to do this. I did mention they have claws, right?
posted by cjorgensen at 1:06 PM on October 27, 2009

I used to work at the SFSPCA as a cat behaviorist, and while I wasn't in on the adoption process I remember that it had questions about declawing that were worded pretty neutrally but if the adoption folks even had half an inkling you were thinking about declawing, they'd tell you to get lost. Still, we had cats that were already declawed, although they were in a distinct minority. This decision doesn't surprise me in the least, and on the whole it's a good one.
posted by the dief at 1:07 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

I love my cats dearly, even the little demonic one. Nix that, all my cats are angels.

Send help, the cats have taken over. They have me surrounded, and are demanding I post on their behalf! Though they lack opposable thumbs, their will is strong. Beware!
posted by filthy light thief at 1:10 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

I think my dog misses his nuts more than my cat misses her claws.
posted by found missing at 1:14 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

It was awesome to see the confused looks on folks' faces.

Imagine if you could see the faces of several thousand MetaFilter readers right now...
posted by MrMoonPie at 1:15 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

There aren't enough available homes for cats as it is and I'm wary of any law likely to result in even fewer available homes for cats.
posted by applemeat at 1:16 PM on October 27, 2009

I think my dog misses his nuts more than my cat misses her claws.

Is there a way now to neuter dogs so they can still have their nuts to lick or is completely chopping them the only way to permanently reach the desired effect? Maybe it's just a matter of cost.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:17 PM on October 27, 2009

Don't leather couches have rights, too?
posted by logicpunk at 1:17 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

prosthetic dog balls?
posted by found missing at 1:20 PM on October 27, 2009

Anyone know if it is true that declawed cats are more likely to be adopted?
posted by notreally at 1:20 PM on October 27, 2009

We just trim our cats nails. They don't like it, but I don't like them clawing the couch, so fuck 'em. Plus it's hilarious to watch them fall off the back of the armchair once they can't sink their claws into it.
posted by electroboy at 1:22 PM on October 27, 2009

We just trim our cats nails. They don't like it, but I don't like them clawing the couch, so fuck 'em.

In our house, this is a procedure which takes under 5 minutes per cat, and they have grown accustomed to the process. They don't struggle, they don't even seem to complain. The one cat is known to purr through the whole process. (I think it's taken as some kind of mutual grooming behavior by her.)
posted by hippybear at 1:24 PM on October 27, 2009

I'm OK with declawing, but only for religious reasons.
posted by rocket88 at 1:26 PM on October 27, 2009 [8 favorites]

De-clawing cats is like crating dogs - America thinks everyone else does it too, but in fact most developed nations don't. Yes, I know, see wikipedia
posted by A189Nut at 1:34 PM on October 27, 2009

"We just trim our cats nails."

Same here. I've been doing it since they were kittens and they don't complain. As easy and effective as this is, I don't understand how anyone got the idea to essentially cut off cats' fingers just to keep the claws under control.
posted by mullingitover at 1:44 PM on October 27, 2009

Don't forget Bowl-a-Kitty, a sport invented by my college buddies (they were chuckleheads) where you set up beer cans at one end of the hall and fling the cat into a running start toward them in hopes of knocking a few down. The cat usually just slows down before it gets to the cans, but, nonetheless, hilarity ensues.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:44 PM on October 27, 2009

A189Nut: "De-clawing cats is like crating dogs"

I read this as "grating" dogs, and was very disturbed.
posted by brundlefly at 1:46 PM on October 27, 2009

I used to favor declawing, as declawing was the only thing that kept my grandmother's cats' vicious behavior from drawing blood when I was a kid. Now that my experience is a bit broader, I've come to understand that my grandmother had shitty cats that were treated poorly by the larger family, and that most cats seem totally cool. I kind of wish my grandmother hadn't had such shitty cats, because it really put me off them for a long time.
posted by klangklangston at 1:50 PM on October 27, 2009

I still feel bad that my cat was declawed, but this was like 13 years ago and I was like 12 years old and had no say in the matter, nor did I realize then that it's like someone chopping off my thumbs. This cat is and always has been lovey and well-adjusted so it didn't cause any behavioral problems, but I do wonder how healthy the muscles are around her paws. Suffice to say any future cat friend will be provided with lots of scratching posts (that will be ignored in favor of destroying furniture).
posted by palidor at 1:50 PM on October 27, 2009

Is there a way now to neuter dogs so they can still have their nuts to lick or is completely chopping them the only way to permanently reach the desired effect? Maybe it's just a matter of cost.

My cat is neutered but still appears to have his balls. I've asked my vet several times, and he assures me that my kitty is fixed. It seems like a vanity thing but I don't know if it's for the sake of the owner or the pet.
posted by Partario at 1:55 PM on October 27, 2009

Also, I dog-sat for a dog that had a crate and I was even instructed to put it in a cage next to me when I slept at night. The dog didn't really have any behavior problems so I let him sleep how he wanted, which always seemed to be in the crate that he had grown too big for. I really can't wrap my head around the conditioning that has a dog treating a cramped little space as its safe sleeping area, or why someone would want to do that to a dog rather than put the effort into training them properly.
posted by palidor at 1:56 PM on October 27, 2009

I've had cats all my life. I'd never had a cat declawed because I considered it totally unnecessary and horribly cruel. I always figured that if your furniture was more important than your cat, you shouldn't have a cat.

Then we adopted Lola. She was found somewhere in the industrial backwater of Red Hook when she was a month or so old. For the first few weeks of her temporary stay with the Possibly Loony Cat Rescue Ladies, they literally didn't know what color her fur was because she had none. They warned us that she might be difficult.

We took her home anyway, and she turned into the most affectionate cat you could imagine. She's now ten years old, and every night when I go to bed, it takes her approximately thirty seconds to stop whatever she's doing and plonk herself on my chest, purring like a freight train.

There's only one catch. With everyone except my wife and I, she's a complete maniac. We're literally the only people in the world she trusts. My mother, who has doted on cats all her life, can't quite believe that this cat refuses to make friends. When people come over, she'll cross the room just to take a swipe at someone who's not even aware of her presence. When we go away on a trip, I leave a squash raquet outside the door of our apartment for the friend who feeds her, because the only way to get in the door safely is to whack her out of the way with it. When she goes to the vet for a shot, they consult her file and the assistant puts on the sort of gloves that linemen wear to work on high voltage lines.

Two years ago we had a baby. He's a boy, and the two most difficult decisions we had to make were whether to circumcise the kid and whether to declaw the cat. (If only the cat were really fat, this would be the MetaFilter trifecta of stories.)

We knew we'd never find anyone we trusted who'd volunteer to take the cat. She'd lived with us for eight years, we loved her like the child substitute she was, and taking her back to a shelter just seemed like such a cruel fate after she'd chosen us as the only people in the world she trusted.

So in the end, we left the kid intact and declawed the cat. Declawing hasn't changed her personality. She still trusts us completely and now she swipes at the kid like every other unwelcome interloper in her life. But she doesn't draw blood.

I still think declawing cats is cruel, but as with so many other things, I've decided that there are exceptions to the rule.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:56 PM on October 27, 2009 [15 favorites]

I don't know if I would be comfortable with a government started by cats. For one thing, they wouldn't get very much work done, as they rest all the time. For another, cats are famously stupid, and that's a bad thing when it comes to governance. And they're sort of murderous, and seem to take a weird sort of pleasure in attacking things, even if it is something that hasn't harmed them. Also, I suspect they are heartless; they'll sometimes pretend to be affectionate, but you always feel that if they felt it was in their best interests, they would kill you.

Oh, wait. I'm describing the Bush administration.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:57 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

> De-clawing cats is like crating dogs - America thinks everyone else does it too, but in fact most developed nations don't.

Yeah, this trips me out. An acquaintance got a dog recently, and I was surprised to learn they lock it in a box every night. The dog obviously hated it, and when I asked what's up, they spoke pretty authoritatively about how it's important to do this as part of their training, it makes them feel secure, blah blah. It sounded like ridiculous nonsense to me meant to justify the act, which I figure is done more for convenience. Is this a common practice? No dog-owner I met before did any such thing, and it frankly bothered me.
posted by cj_ at 2:00 PM on October 27, 2009

Declawing cats is wrong? Next you'll be telling me I shouldn't make him all fluffy in the drier.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:01 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

A189Nut: "De-clawing cats is like crating dogs - America thinks everyone else does it too, but in fact most developed nations don't. Yes, I know, see wikipedia"

Indeed. When I first read about casual mentions of "declawing" in US texts I thought it was a different term for trimming the nails, maybe done in a more radical fashion so they wouldn't grow back for a while. I was kind of pissed off to find out that it was an euphemism for "crippling an animal by surgically removing the bone their main weapon / tool grows from".

I wholeheartedly support neutering animals, but cutting of their toes (or docking tails and ears, for that matter) goes way too far. I sincerely hope that his view will spread to the rest of the American cities / states / nations/ whatever.
posted by PontifexPrimus at 2:02 PM on October 27, 2009

cutting of their toes (or docking tails and ears, for that matter)

I only did those things so I wouldn't have to get a larger crate
posted by found missing at 2:10 PM on October 27, 2009

I once knew a declawed cat; she'd become a biter to defend herself from the overfriendly dog after her claws were removed. Less damage to the furniture, sure, but that was one insecure, sharp little cat.
posted by Soliloquy at 2:27 PM on October 27, 2009

That's why you got to get their teeth out as well.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:34 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

The dog didn't really have any behavior problems so I let him sleep how he wanted, which always seemed to be in the crate that he had grown too big for.

some dogs are kind of burrowers/nesters by nature. I think people tend to misunderstand the purpose of the crate. You should never have to lock the dog in. a comfy blanket and a few chew toys and the dog will usually go there of it's own accord. especially if it's tired or wants to be left alone.

I don't know what cats do.
posted by billyfleetwood at 2:38 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

AnecdoteOutrageRepeat-Filter
posted by applemeat at 2:48 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

I once had to have a cat's claws removed from her feet, but only because they couldn't remove them from my leg. Ouch, ooch, ouch...
posted by evilmidnightbomberwhatbombsatmidnight at 2:57 PM on October 27, 2009

"Then we adopted Lola. She was found somewhere in the industrial backwater of Red Hook when she was a month or so old."

this is the first line of a wonderful novel.... please finish it...
posted by HuronBob at 3:11 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

If you don't want to declaw, you got to get yourself a CatBib to save the birdies.
posted by benzenedream at 3:11 PM on October 27, 2009

As for crating dogs... sheesh... find something real to complain about..

as I sat here reading this my dog (who, actually is never crated at night, or during the day, only about once a month if we sneak out to dinner... walked into the crate, laid down, and is now sleeping happy and peaceful....
posted by HuronBob at 3:13 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

I once worked as a veterinary assistant. I have always been against declawing, but some morbid curiosity led me to watch the procedure the one time it was done during my short tenure at the clinic where I worked. The procedure itself was horrifying enough to watch — there's not just cutting, but tearing involved — but what was worse was watching the poor kitten come out of anesthesia. He stumbled around pathetically on his wrapped paws, letting out frequent little squeaks of pain. He also kept desperately trying to lick his paws despite the e-collar, and every so often would sort of throw himself around his cage in an effort to get at them. I'd never seen a cat so agitated after a procedure.

Nail trimming is part of a dog's life, no reason it can't be for a cat. (As with dogs, some cats are more tolerant than others. People don't declaw their dogs when they're horrible about nail trims, though — they take 'em to the vet. Vet's offices will do cats, too!)
posted by lovermont at 3:15 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

I can't believe this thread came up - I was ready to post this to askmefi.

My girlfriend and I have a problem. Or rather - her cat has a problem. She waited to get kitty declawed and then never went through with it. Kitty is now a furniture destroying machine. We have just been given an opportunity to move into a very, very lovely place - but it is filled with gorgeous antique furniture and other amenities that kitty would love to sink her claws into. The cat gets its nails trimmed just about every week and it doesn't seem to help. As I see it, there's only three options -
1. Declaw the cat. Now, I know that you're not supposed to declaw adult cats. But I have to consider it.
2. Kitty moves to the barn. It's my uncle's barn - quite a nice place, actually. In fact, the only cats who get the job must be spayed/neutered and still possess their claws. You get unlimited kitty food, daily mouse hunts, and you sleep in hay and live with various other animals. Kind of a sweet deal, if you ask me. Girlfriend doesn't want to separate with the cat, though.
3. Get some of these. But do they really work? I've heard they fall right off. This is what I need help with. Have any of you tried the claw covers? Have any of you declawed your adult cat? The cat's name is Lucy if that helps. TIA cat people!
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:21 PM on October 27, 2009

"We just trim our cats nails."

But when your done, do you point and laugh at them saying "Ha ha, let's see you gut me when I scratch your belly now punk!"?

Because that's the best part of clipping their claws.
posted by quin at 3:26 PM on October 27, 2009

you're... WTF is wrong with me today?
posted by quin at 3:28 PM on October 27, 2009

Baby_Balrog: this probably SHOULD be in AskMe rather than discussed here, but my perspective on this is:

If you love your cat, don't move into that place. Stick with old crappy furniture that you don't mind having torn up, seek to retrain her to scratch on accepted objects, and try the claw covers. Moving her into that house would be unjust both for her and for your pocketbook and for the antique furniture. If living in a very very lovely place filled with antique furniture is more important to you than your cat, then find a good family to adopt little Lucy and enjoy your new digs. Outdoor kitties are more exposed to all manner of cat diseases which lead to shorter lifespan, and declawing is something I cannot recommend you do regardless of the cat's age.
posted by hippybear at 3:29 PM on October 27, 2009

Please don't declaw an adult cat, baby balrog... it would be kinder to move it in to the barn or find a new home for it...

ask the cat, he/she would agree...
posted by HuronBob at 3:29 PM on October 27, 2009

If your dog goes into the crate on its own, and it's not locked, seems more like a dog house than "crating." Talking here about people who lock them in a crate at night whether the dog likes it or not. I don't think the practice is OMG HORRIBLE, but it does strike me as a lazy and unfair way of dealing with a dog that might not behave very well left unattended. I don't buy that owners are respecting a nesting instinct -- not when the dog has to be coaxed and then locked in. Of course you do this enough, they'll adapt to it, dog behavior is malleable like that. Doesn't make me more comfortable with the practice that they get used to it eventually.
posted by cj_ at 3:37 PM on October 27, 2009

The best part of clipping a cat's claws is the moment when, swaddled in a bloodstained towel and immobilized between your battle-scarred knees as you sit in the bathtub with the shower curtain closed, the door locked, and a gas mask on, he realizes the futility of further resistance and, with one last furtive mewl, limply surrenders to your superior strength, wiles, and intellect, with only his wide, rolled-back eyes revealing his crazed humiliation.

My cat and I have a Special Relationship.
posted by granted at 3:52 PM on October 27, 2009 [7 favorites]

We had a ginger-colored tom share nine months of life with us until he vanished on us some months back. He was a great cat, very playful and affectionate. He did have a problem with scratching the furniture. We'd make a disapproving noise at him whenever we caught him at it, but he only quit doing it once my wife found him own piece of log.

Two feet long or so, it had been sawn flat on one side while the bark was left on the rest of it. It seemed to suit the cat much better than the furniture did. Never had much of a problem with the furniture mauling after that. I'd try something like that, Baby_Balrog. Declawing the poor things is simple mutilation.
posted by metagnathous at 3:54 PM on October 27, 2009

My cat and I have a Special Relationship.

He will kill you in your sleep and eat you.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:02 PM on October 27, 2009 [5 favorites]

There aren't enough available homes for cats as it is and I'm wary of any law likely to result in even fewer available homes for cats.

I would rather a cat be humanely euthanized than to have to suffer through such a painful procedure that brings on a lifetime of pain and anxiety. The people that are going to value the life of their furniture over the life of their cat are people that don't need cats in the first place. And yes, there are very few and far between exceptions to the rule as Combustible Edison Lighthouse has demonstrated.
posted by MaryDellamorte at 4:08 PM on October 27, 2009

My experience with crating follows. We have two female dogs who have been in two very bad fights with each other requiring medical attention. They are both very gentle with people, but are dog aggressive. We didn't know it when we got the second dog, but dogs of opposite gender are less likely to fight. So, we keep one dog in crated when we are not at home so we're out so we don't come home to one or more dead or torn up dog. It has been a couple of years since they last tangled, but we're not going to take any chances. When we are about to leave, we'll say "I need a doggy volunteer to get in the crate" and one is as likely to volunteer as the other. If the little one is crated, when we come home the big one will often practically knock you down trying to get into the crate while you are letting the little one out. As someone upthread said, it isn't uncommon at all for one of the dogs to voluntarily hang out in the crate. It's like a den, they just feel comfortable in there.
posted by Daddy-O at 4:12 PM on October 27, 2009

My adorable, little killing machine had already been declawed (and microchipped, by some heartless bastards who played dumb and acted like they had no idea what I was talking about when I called to let them know I had found their lost cat) before she showed up at my door and decided she was going to live with me. That doesn't stop her from bringing home presents of dead animals when she is able to sneak outside, and heaven help any birds that visit the garden on my balcony.

Although I'm glad that my furniture and carpets aren't subject to cat claws, I feel bad for my mutilated kittycat and support a ban on declawing as long as exceptions can be made when necessary. We took in a stray when I was a kid, and no amout of trimming could prevent her from honing and wielding needle-sharp claws of death. After she clawed clean through my little brother's thumbnail my parents decided to have her declawed. The alternatives were to send her back out to fend for herself, bring her to a friend's farm to live as a barn cat, or take her to the pound. I suppose they could have tried to find another home for her, and maybe they did, but she was an ugly little thing with a mostly bad temperament and it would have been difficult to find a good home for her. I think they made the right decision in that case. She ended up living a long and comfortable life with us.
posted by Balonious Assault at 4:22 PM on October 27, 2009

I read all those links and am at a loss why people think declawing cats is cruel.
posted by runcibleshaw at 4:29 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

Here we go.
posted by cjorgensen at 4:34 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure about declawing, but Squeeze is Cool for Cats, which I think means it's OK to squeeze your kittens. I'll try this and report back post-haste.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:11 PM on October 27, 2009

My Fiance makes a cat burrito with a towel and gets to work clipping nails steadfastly ignoring all plantif meowing; It's a work of beauty really. The only one of our trio that has any issue is my tuxedo tom. I swear his pride gets wounded and he'll bat at my fiance (without claws extended, oddly enough) whenever she passes by for a couple of days.

Some have pointed out more extreme examples where extreme measures had to be taken, which is true in most things. But by and far most cat problems can be solved with a towel.
posted by The Power Nap at 5:17 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

Whenever my cat started to claw furniture I would say, "No," very firmly and pick her up and take her to the scratching post and hold her paws gently while I scratched the scratching post with them, sorta the way you hold a little kid's hands to teach them to clap. She caught on very quickly.
posted by shoesietart at 5:41 PM on October 27, 2009

I also regularly trimmed her nails, which she didn't mind at all. She did, however, mind getting a bath.
posted by shoesietart at 5:43 PM on October 27, 2009

“Oh, wait. I'm describing the Bush administration.”

Cat press: Mr. Tiddles!?
Cat: Yes, Mr. Socks from the Times? Ol' Socksy. The Socker...henh.
Cat press: You invaded Iraq without goals or an exit strategy, that was a major error.
Cat: No…I meant to do that. This press conference is over. *walks off proud *

I like cats. I’m a dog person, but I like cats. Had a cat for a bit in the military that my buddy and I rescued from some idiots throwing rock/mudballs at him.
Still, with kids (and two big dogs), it’s a tough sell. We do get the occasional field mouse that I can track and corner and even catch but can’t kill (I don’t eat them and ‘harmless/cute’ is pretty much my kryptonite) which makes me wish we had a cat.
But we like the bird feeders and nature and so forth. If we were more urban I s’pose we’d have a cat. I don’t think I’d declaw it though. I like hunting. I see no reason why any other predator shouldn’t. Although cute and harmless cuts no ice with cats, which is a little disquieting in an animal that does so much trade in the former.
posted by Smedleyman at 5:44 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

"...and hold her paws gently while I scratched the scratching post with them, sorta the way you hold a little kid's hands to teach them to clap. She caught on very quickly."

I think my cat knows how to do this but refuses to out of spite. The scratching post and door hangers are about the only think she won't touch. I've tried everything you can imagine. Putting her treats on top of the post, showing her where they are at, and hoping she'd get it. Rubbing the post with fresh catnip. It's been an exercise in futility.
posted by cjorgensen at 5:50 PM on October 27, 2009

What do you like better? Cats or Furniture?

You only get one choice, otherwise you are confused about your priorities.

When I get home from work, I always say: "Cats!"
posted by ovvl at 6:33 PM on October 27, 2009

Yeah, runcibleshaw, I'm with you. But apparently mefi has accepted that IT JUST IS, and WE ARE WRONG. FWIW, my two are not declawed, but one got very close when she decided that baby and dog eyes were a good target. If she starts swiping again she will be getting surgery.
posted by bh at 6:53 PM on October 27, 2009

So, what do you all think about circumcising cats?
posted by Balisong at 7:13 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

I do not think this word cat-o-phile means what you think it means...
posted by empatterson at 7:22 PM on October 27, 2009 [1 favorite]

Darnit. I meant 'cat-o-philia'.
posted by empatterson at 7:23 PM on October 27, 2009

But we like the bird feeders and nature and so forth.

My garden is filled with birds. We have a lot to attract them including thick hedges for nesting and a large assortment of edible seeds and berries. I admit the boys (two toms) bring in the occasional bird but it is mostly mice and voles. As a gardener I am happy to get rid of the voles. They also bring in snakes, frogs, lizards, grasshoppers, squirrels, cicadas, and twice they have brought in baby bunnies. Usually I am in time to save the creatures and put them back outside, although Fanny the bulldog, loves to crunch up the cicadas.

As to the issue of crating. It is mostly for the housebreaking stage because puppies don't foul their own nest. So you crate them during the nights. We found that Fanny often wandered into her crate during the day to take a nap. She found it a nice haven to get away from the cats, although sometimes one of the cats would take a nap inside as well. After two months or so, she started sleeping in our bedroom and we gave the crate to our sister-in-law who was getting a beagle. To this day, 7 years later, that beagle still voluntarily sleeps in his crate. I don't think the door is ever closed.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:06 PM on October 27, 2009

I would rather a cat be humanely euthanized than to have to suffer through such a painful procedure

good lord
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:40 PM on October 27, 2009 [2 favorites]

If you are seriously considering declawing a cat so that you can move into a "very, very lovely place [...] filled with gorgeous antique furniture and other amenities" it is a good sign you are not a very nice person.

Companion animals are not accessories, to be traded in or gotten rid of when they go out of style or when you want to update the decor.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:52 PM on October 27, 2009 [3 favorites]

" never crated at night, or during the day, only about once a month if we sneak out to dinner.."

WTF crating dogs??? I never heard of this. I didn't expect to be reading about something so bizarre. Never closing the door is one thing--that's just a dog house. But closing it in? What the heck, are you guys cheapskates? Get a cage big enough for the dog to stand up and walk around if you really must keep it locked up somewhere while you "sneak out to dinner". Yeah, even if you have a Newfoundland.

Dogs like it? Right. A dog will take a beating from you and still wag its tail when you come into the room. That's how dogs are. Don't take advantage of this and make the dog suffer so your life more convenient. Or better yet, just don't get a dog.
posted by eye of newt at 9:29 PM on October 27, 2009

Baby_Balrog,

I have two cats with paws intact. We found it close to impossible to find a shelter in the Chicago area that will adopt out to people who have *any* plan to declaw. We were actually rejected at one shelter because we didn't know this at the time, and I said on the form that I wouldn't completely rule out declawing (for any number of reasons - at the time, didn't know what the procedure entailed and also, I don't know what the future holds, and was uncomfortable saying that I would never do something...whatever). Now, I would never have my boys declawed - they are provided with enough to scratch on and really don't scratch their humans. (By the way, I can guarantee you have never seen a cat look this happy... ::shameless human love::)

I did try Soft Paws last year on both of them. My parents have a declawed cat and I wanted any fights between my cats and my parents' to be a fair one, and my parents were nervous about potential furniture destruction. Neither cat enjoyed the application process, but one detested it particularly more, and spent the whole of the next week chewing them off his nails. By the time we made it back to Chicago, one cat had ALL of his claw covers on, and the other had nommed off all but one. Did they prevent fights? Maybe, if only because the fightier cat didn't have a problem with them on, and the other spent all of the time he would have spent fighting chewing them off. If you try them, find a night to apply them when kitty is almost asleep, and if possible, plan on clipping his nails the night before. They are a bit pricey if you find them at pet stores, so be aware.
posted by honeybee413 at 9:45 PM on October 27, 2009

Oh, wait. I'm describing the Bush administration.
You forgot licking their anuses with their rough, rough tongues.

So, what do you all think about circumcising cats?
As long as it's performed by Meowhel.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:30 PM on October 27, 2009

If you love your cat, don't move into that place.

Baby Balrog, don't make major life decisions in response to a goddamn cat! Put the cat in the barn, chances are it will have a way more fulfilling life than being a housecat and really isn't letting a cat be a cat at the heart of the declawing debate? I mean, don't declaw it for sure, that's disgusting, but I'd put the cat in a barn full of mice in a heartbeat -- anyone who says not to really doesn't understand cats, in my opinion.
posted by Rumple at 10:48 PM on October 27, 2009

filthy light thief, one of mine has thumbs. And uses them.

That cat had to have two claws removed for medical reasons: he is a 26 toed poly and two of his claws did not retract property due to slight malformations of two of the extra toes. We tried for several months to see if he could function with them clipped or soft pawed, but he developed infections around the claws, so the vet decided, along with us, to have them removed. He left the toes in tact, including the bone, but removed the nail bed for the claw. It is a much harder, and more expensive procedure, but has the least behavior side effects and leaves the most of the morphology in tact. And I get to say he's got 26 toes instead of 24.

Baby Balrog, when I was finding an apartment this most recent round of trying to find places to live, I made a point of leaving emails for every place that said they required cats to be declawed with full explanations of what the procedure entails, and some nice graphic images of cats with mutilated paws thanks to bad declawing jobs or bad reactions to the procedure. I hope I changed at least one mind in the process, but if not, at least I annoyed them some and made someone have to open that email. I concluded each email asking if, in turn, they required small children to be devoiced and hamstrung.

DO NOT move into any place that requires you to declaw your cat or debark your dog.
posted by strixus at 12:26 AM on October 28, 2009

Baby_Balrog, also, soft paws do work, if applied correctly. They will fall off on their own as the claw sheds, so you have to reapply them regularly, but about as regularly as you would trim your fingernails were you a very lazy person like me (once a monthish).
posted by strixus at 12:31 AM on October 28, 2009

> To this day, 7 years later, that beagle still voluntarily sleeps in his crate. I don't think the door is ever closed.

OK, but this has nothing to do with crating, that's just a doghouse. My cat sleeps in one of my dresser drawers, but I don't lock her in in there to keep her from pissing on stuff while I'm asleep.

I have no bone with people who have a box their dog enjoys holing in.
posted by cj_ at 3:59 AM on October 28, 2009

Not always.

See also the Great Cat Massacre in France.
posted by nomisxid at 8:25 AM on October 28, 2009

My cat came to me declawed, and while he has behavior problems, they are much more poop-centered (as in, refusing to use a box so he uses a newspaper) than anything to do with his paws. He's also neutered, obese despite our best efforts, a long-haired cat stuck in Texas, and cross-eyed. No one else would ever adopt him, so this is as good as it gets for him.

Sometimes I think we didn't do cats any favors by domesticating them.
posted by emjaybee at 8:35 AM on October 28, 2009

Sometimes I think we didn't do cats any favors by domesticating them.

Not convinced we did, actually.

If you'll excuse me, I have two sets of eyes staring at me, insisting I do... something... kitty hypnosis...must do their bidding...sleepy sleepy
posted by hippybear at 9:02 AM on October 28, 2009

Jeeeeaaaayyysus. I apologize for even bringing that up. I was raised in a home with cats and dogs, the cats were declawed and the dogs were crate trained. It was the way things were done - we had a vet in the family and as far as I can tell we had happy animals. The dogs were working dogs - border collies - and if we wanted to be able to keep them in the house they had to be crated. After about a week and a half we just left the crate open and that's where they slept. When they got to be eight or nine years old they'd sleep on the bed with mom and pop. The cats seemed well-adjusted and perfectly happy and they all lived to be old, stinky, booger-faced elderly cats until they were humanely euthanized and buried in the back yard pet cemetery.
I had no clue that there was this much antipathy toward people who make these kinds of choices for their pets.
And if you think I'm a bad person for wanting to live in a house with nice furniture - not torn to shreds by a cat - then I guess I'll have to stand guilty as charged.
A cat is an pet. It sacrifices certain rights in order to get fed every damned day by some human. In return, the humans get a marked decrease in their home mouse population and some companionship. It's not a person - and people who confuse their pets with other humans should get their heads examined.
If you are seriously considering declawing a cat so that you can move into a "very, very lovely place ... it is a good sign you are not a very nice person.
What the hell do you know about me? I don't like declawing cats because it reduces their mouse-destroying potential. Mice carry the hanta virus and kill little babies with it.
Seriously? A sign that I'm not a very nice person? The cat seems to think I'm freaking lord and master of all things wonderful, namely a clean litter box and tasty cat treats.
But I suppose if you've devised some kind of twisted, Hobbesian universal ethic where a person's position on declawing or not declawing their pets (which they own - which I'm sure makes you three kinds of crazy) then all I can say is you need to go for a walk.

FWIW we've ordered the cat claw covers. She's getting them glued onto her little shredders later this week and if she chews them off I'm gluing them on again with stronger glue. I hope you enjoy your shredded furniture.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:30 AM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]

I thought people just kept cats so they could eat the kittens. I'm learning so much about America here! Now if you'll excuse me, I have a kitten pâté cooking in the skillet. You would be surprised how many kittens you need to get enough fat for a decent yield pâté recipe!
posted by Burhanistan at 9:34 AM on October 28, 2009

Baby_Balrog, there's two different perspectives people have about their pets. For some people, a pet is in many ways a part of the family: they have an affectionate, emotionally attached relationship with the animal. For others, a pet serves a particular function (looking decorative, killing mice, etc.) instead of being seen as a family member.

So for most of the people answering your question, causing unnecessary suffering (and, possibly, behavior problems such as increased aggression) by amputating a cat's toes so that you can have nicer furniture is not acceptable. This is because they're in the first group, and therefore they're more concerned for the cat's well-being than they are with owning especially nice objects. Since it sounds like you're in the second group, though, to you a cat is also an object that you own. Therefore, for you, it seems like having an emotional, affectionate relationship with your cat or giving too much importance to her well-being is as ridiculous as doing so for a toaster or a lawnmower. Does that sound correct?

As I see it, there's only three options

So since I'm in the first group, I don't think those are your only three options. I can imagine some rare, unfortunate situations that would necessitate giving away or declawing a cat--but wanting to live with antique furniture is not one of those. Keeping in mind that my perspective is different than yours, here are the options I see for you.

1. Try training the cat not to scratch furniture. You don't mention a scratching post. I assume you have one? Or two, or three? Try a few different types to see which kind she likes best (rope, cardboard, fabric, etc.) Does she like catnip? Put catnip on the scratching post to attract her. Put them in several locations. Use a clicker. Click and reward the cat with a treat for scratching in the correct place. Try the SoftPaws too, if you want, but check them frequently to make sure they're not digging into her paws.

I don't know if you'll be able to train her to the point where you would trust her around priceless antiques, but at least you'll be able to own slightly nicer furniture and have an improved relationship with her if she learns to scratch more appropriately.

2. Unless you are driven by absolute necessity (i.e. you would literally be homeless otherwise), don't move to a place that is not suitable for all the members of your family, including the cat.
posted by lemuria at 10:43 AM on October 28, 2009 [1 favorite]

On the matter of trimming cat's claws: I simply pet the cat into submission, then lay it over on its back in my lap and carefully clip each nail. You have to be careful not to cut to the quick...if you do that, you're nver going to get the cat to submit gracefully again. I've done it with friends' cats, as well as my own, and they always just put up with it.

One of our cats would put his paw on my bare skin and extend his claws, staring somewhat accusingly at me, when he decided they were too long. Or at least, he used to before we got the other cat, who outweighs him by 25% and is way too rambunctious. Now he prefers having the disciplinary tools, not that he gets to keep them.

The only clawing problem we've had was with the grille cloth on my amp. I put a cunk of denim over the face of it, and that's no longer a problem...although the grille cloth lookslike crap now. Glad it's not a classic, I might be a bit pissed in that case.
posted by Jimmy Havok at 12:06 PM on October 28, 2009

I think it's unkind, offensive and petty for you to claim that there are two kinds of pet owners, those who love their pets - and those who want to have furniture.

for you, it seems like having an emotional, affectionate relationship with your cat or giving too much importance to her well-being is as ridiculous as doing so for a toaster or a lawnmower. Does that sound correct?

No, and that's a shitty thing to say to someone. Even over the internet.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:08 PM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]

I'm sorry that I misunderstood you. From what you said it sounded to me like you saw pets in a more utilitarian than familial role. For example, "I don't like declawing cats because it reduces their mouse-destroying potential" and "people who confuse their pets with other humans should get their heads examined" make it sound to me like you don't see pets as family members.

The reason I brought this up is that you seemed confused about why people were reacting badly to your list of options of how to deal with your situation. My feeling was that it was because they were seeing the function of pets differently than you were.
posted by lemuria at 12:29 PM on October 28, 2009

Unless you are driven by absolute necessity (i.e. you would literally be homeless otherwise), don't move to a place that is not suitable for all the members of your family, including the cat.

Get a grip.

I have cats. I'm really fond of my cats. I care about their well-being, and treat them very well. I feed them food that, pound-for-pound, is more expensive than some of the food I feed myself. I spend as much or more on their health care than I do on my own. I would never knowingly cause them pain or harm.

However.

THEY ARE NOT MEMBERS OF MY FAMILY. THEY ARE PETS.

Are your pets neutered? Is your family? QED.
posted by dersins at 12:45 PM on October 28, 2009 [3 favorites]

Right, that's what I'm talking about. Some people see pets as family members, others don't. I do, you don't. It's a difference of perspective. That's why I prefaced my advice by saying that I was coming from one particular perspective which is not universal.

I guess there's a reason why this is not a good subject for the internet.
posted by lemuria at 12:49 PM on October 28, 2009

Ugh, now I feel like I'm being a dick. I didn't mean to hurt anybody's feelings: I actually rephrased what I wrote a bunch of times trying to be as non-judgmental as I could. Apparently that didn't work out so well.

My cat has chosen this moment to claw at my foot for attention. I guess that means it's time for me to quit trying to discuss this contentious subject and go pet her.
posted by lemuria at 12:59 PM on October 28, 2009

You don't have to think a cat is human, equal to a human, or a human member of your family to want to avoid mutilating them. I think my cat is a pet, not a human, but I do think she's a member of my family--a pet member. When I got her, I voluntarily took on the obligations associated with owning her, which, in my mind, includes not knowingly causing her pain or harm (to use dersins words). Declawing causes pain and harm. You do not have to be "a person who confuses your pet with other people" (Baby_Balrog's characterization of the anti-declawing people) in order to avoid wanting to harm them, or in order to value their health and well-being over nice antique furniture.

Put another way:

Person => cat => furniture
posted by Mavri at 3:15 PM on October 28, 2009

greater or equal to
posted by found missing at 3:49 PM on October 28, 2009

The only clawing problem we've had was with the grille cloth on my amp.

This was something that popped into my head last night long after I had commented-- we have 2 and a half cats (one of our cats chose to live mainly at the neighbors because he never got chummy with the bulldog) and they do not ever claw stuff in the house. I assume this is because they claw stuff outside like tree trunks. They are free to go outside whenever they want because of the dog door, but they stay close to the house. All of our guys are completely docile, and after kittenhood have not inflicted any injuries on the humans in their lives, so really the sharpness of their claws is of no interest to us.

I think our attitude towards our pets has undergone a massive shift in the last 50 years or so, in some part because of our financial freedom to do so. I am always a little amazed at my mother's cavalier attitude towards her pets-- if the vet bills get too high or the animal develops bad habits...boom, the pet goes right to the pound. But that is the way she grew up. Pets ate table scraps, not specialized formulas, and they only went to the vet for rabies shots, not for regular check-ups. They certainly weren't dressed up in costumes or flown around in airplanes.

My attitude is pets should be cared for to the best of your ability, but I won't be spending thousands on hip operations or rearranging our lifestyle so that the cats are limited to the inside. I also would consider situations that called for re-homing, even though I dearly love our guys. If I had the financial means to travel around the world for a year or two, for example, I would leap at the chance even though it would mean finding new homes for our pets.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:31 AM on October 29, 2009