June 19, 2001

10:03 AM

Drummer Tommy Lee Says Drowned Boy Left AloneThe boy's father, James Veres, a television producer, told a local radio station on Sunday that more people should have been hired to supervise the children and called his son's death "inexcusable." I smell a lawsuit.
posted by a3matrix (35 comments total)

Why is anyone suprised? Are you letting your kid go over to Tommy Lee's house because you automatically assume a convicted wife beater, drug addict, and member of a heavy metal band is the kind of guy who would be concerned about proper pool supervision? hands up if you automatically connect Motley Crue with Backyard Pool Safety?

This is an article with two heinous crimes - the death of a child, and the realization that Tommy and Pam named their sons after characters on 90210.
posted by kristin at 10:13 AM on June 19, 2001

It was not clear whether the birthday party was held for Lee's eldest son, Brandon Thomas, who turned five on June 5, or Lee's other son, Dylan Jagger, who will turn four on December 29.

why is this unclear?

and kristin: everything i've read and seen about Tommy Lee leads me to believe that he is a caring father, whatever else he may be. although, i've never met him.

have you?
posted by o2b at 10:17 AM on June 19, 2001

Being a caring father does not necessarily mean that one is a big-picture thinking, overall responsible person. This is Tommy Lee we're talking about.

But the father is shirking his own culpability here. There is no way in hell that I'd ever leave the safety of my kids in someone else's hands. There is no way I'd ever let my young child go swimming at someone else's home without checking to make sure that there is adequate supervision. I feel terrible that this man has lost his child, but dammit, why didn't he check to see who was watching before he turned his back?
posted by Dreama at 10:36 AM on June 19, 2001

hands up if you automatically connect Motley Crue with Backyard Pool Safety?

Congratulations on the first time I've laughed out loud at a MeFi comment.
posted by goto11 at 10:44 AM on June 19, 2001

Anyone who leaves their child in tommy's care has to be insane, and I don't even have to meet him to know that.

Unbelievable.
posted by justgary at 10:47 AM on June 19, 2001

They should take a lesson from tommy's ex and have inflatables permanantly installed, just to keep accidents like this from happening.
posted by DiplomaticImmunity at 10:54 AM on June 19, 2001

I have been following this story, and from what I have heard, not only were THE PARENTS of the child there at the party, but they had hired a nanny to watch over the child, and the nanny asked another nanny to watch the child while she went and did something.

Why is it so easy to blame everyone else but yourself? If the parents were their, then they are responsible. If I was at a party with my child, I am keeping an eye on him the whole time. Especially a 4 year old at a party with a swimming pool.
posted by da5id at 10:57 AM on June 19, 2001

And why do we need to blame someone? So we can justify hating some wealthy people who we find distasteful? Maybe the kid was supervised, but wandered off. Maybe terrible accidents happen even when people try to prevent them.
posted by mecran01 at 11:38 AM on June 19, 2001

this kind of thing happens too quickly. it happens with little shallow amounts of water (like in a bucket) that no one thinks could ever be dangerous.

it doesn't mean that anyone is to blame, but it does mean that if you're around little kids in water, *watch them at all times*. bad things can happen in a second. - rcb
posted by rebeccablood at 11:43 AM on June 19, 2001

Also a good thing to do is taking babies to swim lessons. At a very, very early age kids will be able to float. That alone could save lives. My mom had a friend who's baby died this way...
posted by owillis at 11:49 AM on June 19, 2001

So no one should be blamed? Please. It was a terrible accident I agree. A terrible accident that could have easily been avoided.

This has nothing to do with them being rich. Kids and pools are accidents waiting to happen. Obviously the child wasn't being supervised at the time it wandered off.

If a friend drops off their child at my home, I'm very aware that I'm responsible for their safety. If an 'accident' happens, I certainly wouldn't expect to go to jail, but I'd be the first to accept the blame.

Of course, in today's society, accepting blame for anything is rare.
posted by justgary at 11:58 AM on June 19, 2001

I don't think it makes a difference as to who was hosting the party. I agree with Rebecca; little kids get into everything, and proper supervision is essential.

Would there be this degree of outrage if it happened at, say, Pat Boone's house?

Yes, Tommy Lee has problems, and they're not minor ones, either. But I don't think his ability to be a good parent has ever been questioned. Take "heavy metal guy, etc." out of the equation, and he was basically a guy having a birthday party for his child. There's nothing wrong with that.

You can have all the adult supervision in the world and still, things will happen -- for example, I have burn scars on my upper arms and chest because I managed to knock a tea kettle of boiling water onto myself as a very small child. My father was standing *right there* -- but was too late to stop curious me from reaching up. Do I blame my father for putting the kettle within my reach, even for a second? Hell, no. Parents are human beings, and my father may not have even realized I *could* reach that high.

I'm sorry that their child is dead, but I don't think this had anything to do with what Tommy Lee does for a living...
posted by metrocake at 12:08 PM on June 19, 2001

I'm confused... was this a public pool? I thought it was Tommy Lee's private pool. If so, why does Veres say that more people should have been hired to supervise the children? I didn't know private pools had lifeguards... maybe for the rich?
posted by gramcracker at 12:09 PM on June 19, 2001

The take-home advice: Learn CPR.

Many drowning accidents are preventable, but if this happened as quickly as the story indicates, this child may have been saved with some quick CPR and dialing 911. Sounds like in the chaos and trauma nobody had any sense of what to do in a crisis. That's my read, details are sketchy to say the least.

Maintaining your head when the shit hits the fan is a huge chunk of survival. Don't Panic is wonderful advice from H2G2 - not just for laughs, but for real life.
posted by artlung at 12:25 PM on June 19, 2001

When I was a kid, I almost drowned in my great uncle's pool because I didn't know how to swim and thought (at the time; I've since revised my understanding) that the shallow end and deep end of the pool were all the same depth. So I jumped into the deep end. It doesn't take a whole lot of time to fill a little kid's lungs with water. Fortunately, my great uncle's daughter-in-law (she'd be what, my second cousin by marriage?) saved me. And I was supervised at the time.

Tragedy doesn't always necessitate a scapegoat. Or a lawsuit. (In theory.)
posted by iceberg273 at 12:33 PM on June 19, 2001

I'm sorry that their child is dead, but I don't think this had anything to do with what Tommy Lee does for a living...

I agree. And tommy may be a great father, no one here knows. But I still wouldn't let my child stay with someone who as a past that includes heavy drug use and physical altercations with his wife. Color me crazy.

Also, this kid was NOT being supervised at the time he fell in the pool. If he were, this wouldn't have happened. This was not a kid touching the stove, which could happen in seconds. He may have been supervised before he drowned, and even after, but during that time he wasn't. I'm not sure why there is confusion on this subject.
posted by justgary at 12:46 PM on June 19, 2001

Are you letting your kid go over to Tommy Lee's house because you automatically assume a convicted wife beater, drug addict, and member of a heavy metal band is the kind of guy who would be concerned about proper pool supervision? - kristin

Being a caring father does not necessarily mean that one is a big-picture thinking, overall responsible person. This is Tommy Lee we're talking about. - Dreama

Anyone who leaves their child in tommy's care has to be insane, and I don't even have to meet him to know that.
- justgary

Wow, I didn't realize you guys were all so well acquainted with Tommy Lee that you could make judgments about his parenting or babysitting abilities! I'm a big Motley Crue fan - could you guys introduce me to him? What? Oh, you don't really know him? Oh... well then, how do you know what kind of responsible or irresponsible person he is?

Unless you know him personally, you only know about him what the media has chosen to tell you about him. Yes, he used to be a drug user. Yes, he was convicted of assaulting his wife - but if memory serves, she forgave him, and he does not have a history of abuse, but I could be wrong there. And yes, he's a weird-looking, tattooed member of a "heavy metal band". Gasp!

Like o2b said, from what I've heard he's a very caring and loving father, and like many others in this thread have stated, this sort of thing happens so fast that very often even the people watching can't stop it from happening. I almost drowned when I was 2 or 3 because my aunt turned her back for 30 seconds. I don't blame her at all. Kids move fast.

Could there have been more supervision? Probably. I wasn't at the party, so I don't really know. There can never be enough supervision at a pool party involving little kids. But don't go off half-cocked blaming Tommy Lee just cause you think he's a shiftless jerk. You don't know. And yes, there will be a lawsuit, guaranteed, because enough people are going to believe in "guilty until proven innocent" based on his lifestyle and appearance and never give him the benefit of the doubt.
posted by starvingartist at 12:46 PM on June 19, 2001

Yes, he was convicted of assaulting his wife - but if memory serves, she forgave him

She forgave him. Hey, that's good enough for me! Seriously, what does that prove? Many, many women forgive men for beating them. In fact, it happens so much it's a problem.

and he does not have a history of abuse

I think that's what Pam is waiting for. She wants to be beaten for a couple of years before leaving him. Lets see, he abused drugs, his wife, and my ears with the awful 'methods of mayhem'. I'd say that's a history.

Unless you know him personally, you only know about him what the media has chosen to tell you about him.

Like o2b said, from what I've heard he's a very caring and loving father

So you know him? Or is this what you heard? From the media? See, it works both ways.

And did anyone even mention the way he looks? I couldn't care what he looks like or what music he plays. I'm not sure where that idea came from.
posted by justgary at 1:04 PM on June 19, 2001

Get real, justgary. I myself am pierced and tattooed. The way he looks certainly does enter into it, even if nobody chooses to mention it. Go read any of the threads we've had before about body mods. A good portion of the "normal" world looks at those of us with body mods and automatically assumes the worst. Couple that with the death of a young boy at his house, and of course his appearance is going to be taken into account, and if you don't think it is you are either in complete denial or very naive.

And yes, you're right, the media spin does work both ways. But Tommy Lee has gotten a lot more bad press than he has good press. I can't see People magazine spinning him as Father of the Year because they feel sorry for him - who would read that?
posted by starvingartist at 1:12 PM on June 19, 2001

By the way, I did not mean to imply that Tommy should be exonerated for his abuse conviction. He did his time, and for all I know it's under the bridge. Some people can reform, you know. Why don't you want to believe he can?
posted by starvingartist at 1:13 PM on June 19, 2001

"you only know about him what the media has chosen to tell you about him."


I've seen one of his home videos and feel I know him a little bit...
posted by TiggleTaggleTiger at 1:21 PM on June 19, 2001

touché, TTT.
posted by starvingartist at 1:27 PM on June 19, 2001

Get real, justgary. I myself am pierced and tattooed. The way he looks certainly does enter into it, even if nobody chooses to mention it.

I'm sure for other people you are correct. I was only speaking for myself (I was one of the quoted). Believe me, I don't care what he looks like, or how he dresses, or how many tattoos he has.

And yes I think people can change. I even think tommy seems like a nice guy. And from what I've seen he looks like a very loving father. I just wouldnt leave my child with him. But I wouldn't leave my child with anyone I didn't know very well.

I also know things can happen very fast. Hopefully, people will read this story and maybe a few lives will be saved.
posted by justgary at 1:30 PM on June 19, 2001

Anyone who leaves their child in tommy's care has to be insane, and I don't even have to meet him to know that.

That's what you wrote. If you don't know him, what are you basing you're pyschiatric evaluation on? You're basing it on what you know about him - the media spin, his reputation, his criminal record... and I believe, even if it's only subconsciously, his appearance. If you really, honestly, truly do not care the least bit what he looks like and really don't let it enter into your opinion, you are my new best friend.

But let me offer you this. If Tommy Lee came to your door looking the way he does - head to toe tattoos, lots of metal sticking out of his body, and a mohawk - to interview for a babysitting job, and you didn't know a thing about him... would you even consider him for the job? I'm just asking.
posted by starvingartist at 1:39 PM on June 19, 2001

Tommy Lee has a mohawk???
posted by CrazyUncleJoe at 1:44 PM on June 19, 2001

He did at one point
posted by starvingartist at 1:49 PM on June 19, 2001

That's what you wrote. If you don't know him, what are you basing you're pyschiatric evaluation on?

There was a touch of sarcasm in that statement, but I stand by it. Leaving your child with someone with a history of violence is just not a smart move in my book.

If tommy came to my door to babysit I would first hide my girlfriend=) Personally, I'd rather james hetfield babvsit my kid. Free guitar lessons...

Honestly, I'm sure I would do a double take at first. Most babysitters don't look like tommy. But would I give him a chance? Yes. The only thing that would bother me is your statement that 'and you didn't know a thing about him'. I'd have to know a lot about 'anyone' before trusting me with my kid.

And by the way, I asked my fiance sitting across the room if she would give tommy a chance and she also said yes(but not with a history of violence).
posted by justgary at 2:12 PM on June 19, 2001

Tommy Lee came to your door looking the way he does - head to toe tattoos, lots of metal sticking out of his body, and a mohawk - to interview for a babysitting job

I don't even have a kid!! I think I'd call the cops!!
posted by amanda at 2:18 PM on June 19, 2001

I might ask him to show "it" to me...


... I mean, you know... just... curiosity.
posted by CrazyUncleJoe at 2:33 PM on June 19, 2001

Actually, Tommy Lee hasn't been a working member of Motley Crue for some time, or so VH-1 tells me. He is still listed on the band's goofy website, though, as a sort-of honorary life member. The VH-1 "Behind the Music," (voted by viewers as either just ahead of or in a tie with the Leif Garrett, Heroin Addict episode at the most compulsively-watchable-even-if-insane of 2000) includes a section where Tommy talks of his marriage's to Heather Locklear failing because he loves kids, he's big kid himself, etc. It's so totally ridiculous/incongruous.
posted by raysmj at 2:37 PM on June 19, 2001

I think it's terrible a little boy died.
posted by Marquis at 3:02 PM on June 19, 2001

Having nearly drown twice in my 21 years of life, I must say, that shit happens. Whether they were being watched with a careful eye or not (as I was), the child could still drown. We are all speculating what happened, and criticizing him for being a bad parent. We know nothing. We know no details. Don't jump to conclusions and draw an opinion until you know all the facts.
posted by Logboy at 6:42 PM on June 19, 2001

Whether they were being watched with a careful eye or not (as I was), the child could still drown.

If the child got out of sight, he wasn't being watched carefully. This is a 4 year old child folks, and a pool.

We know nothing. We know no details. Don't jump to conclusions and draw an opinion until you know all the facts.

A four year old child drown. That's the only fact I need to know. If whoever was at the party couldn't watch the child continuously then children shouldn't of been there, or at the very least there should of been a locked gate around the pool.

This was completely avoidable and it's amazing to me the amount of people who simply say 'shit happens'. Shit happens when you let it happen, and it's easy to make that statement when it's not your child.
posted by justgary at 11:26 PM on June 19, 2001

It's amazing to me that MSNBC can slice my tv into four quarters and plant a squawking idiot into each of the boxes speculating as above without any real facts, even admitting that and still be considered real news by some people.
posted by mblandi at 7:03 AM on June 20, 2001

I'm amazed that 911 tapes are always ending up on the air, myself. I know if I was calling 911 because a little boy may have drowned in my pool, I'd not be all that coherent, and I wouldn't want to hear my babbling and weeping on national TV. For all his faults, Lee handled that phone call a lot better than I would have.

I know Jack about Tommy Lee. I skipped past Motley Crue and straight to Slayer, so I don't know that I ever owned one of their albums. But forget him for a moment, and think about all those kids at that party. That has got to be the shittiest memory any of those kids will have for quite some time. I think it fair to say that would ruin birthday parties for me, if I were one of them.
posted by Ezrael at 12:21 PM on June 20, 2001